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Interview with the King.

Grand Master General Shiva X
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Conducted by Brother Giuseppe & Sister Tikky
Zappia
Alpha and Omega Lodge
Ordo Templi Orientis
South Australia

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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
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1. It being a given that O.T.O. is a Fraternal, globally unified Body; what do you feel to be
the distinguishing and or principal features that differentiate the Grand Lodge of
Australia from the other Grand Lodges? This perhaps in regards to the way we go about
achieving the aims of the O.T.O., or just in general.

Well - to be brief about it as I could keep talking for a week on this one - I think AUGL has
explicitly affirmed the close alliance with the A..A.. and made A..A.. both visible and accessible
to our members. This has brought with it, its own Blessings - unique doctrinal insights that we
teach down here. And this alliance extends to practical support. This year as you may know we
are bringing out Daniel Gunther, a senior instructor of A..A.., for a spiritual retreat - most
attendees being OTO; this will be Daniels second visit here; and next year Grand Lodge is
actively answering the call to assist the Outer College with the resources to establish a Temple
here in Australia. This gets to our core mission of making Initiation into Thelema accessible and
operational in Australia, and our Asia-Pacific region.

Besides this, if you go to our website http://www.otoaustralia.org.au/#!essays--articles/c1wim I

have an article there called Aurora Australis which shows in one section how I received insights
unique to Australia about how we should constitute the Grand Lodge. I tend to summarise this
as the five fold plan of Lodge, Chapter, Church, Senate & Syllabus wherever we organise
ourselves. These correspond to the five powers of the sphinx and the fivefold plan of Liber OZ.

Theres a stack of other things I should say, but really cant in a public forum - we have nuances
and differences in the way we organise internal OTO dynamics such as authorisations and
whatnot. Were also the only Grand Lodge duly authorised by the Frater Superior and the
Areopagus to have national Guilds - and our art guild has been a massive, global success, see
http://www.collective777.com!

Finally I should mention we have a specific focus on the Church and to develop this into a public
facing service with recognised (legal) denominational status. In particular, we are trying to focus
on vocationally driven Clergy and establishing public Temples, like you have in Adelaide for
example, with all the responsibilities, management and opportunities that go with it: see http://
www.egcadelaide.com/#!about-us/cjg9

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Ill leave it there for now.
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2. Do you foresee the Modus of Scientific Illuminism that is extant throughout the System
of the O.T.O., along with its Philosophy and Theurgy, ever making its way into
mainstream Academia, or perhaps even taught in Universities as a (specialist) branch of
Metaphysics or Science per se?

If this is to happen in an Australian context, it is so far away as to be an extremely speculative

subject to spend too much time thinking about. Hell, you cant even study Jung here in higher
education - at least substantively or in a doctoral or research sense. And we dont really have
the broad diversity you see in, say, US Graduate programs, where you can get many
metaphysical programs on offer.

More importantly, while there may be some broad similarities, I think the pedagogy of Scientific
Illuminism and that of the Academy are inherently distinct, despite some overlaps in institutions
such as Academia Ordo Templi Orientis. Im more focussed on being involved in this Academy
& learning from the esteemed academics in it, and seeing our Philosophy and Theurgy robustly
taught in the Hermetic Science College of the OTO (for the way things are going its only a
matter of time before we launch the College) than in pondering any greater foray into
mainstream Academia.

Id also like to see us really interrogate analytical psychology (and related fields) to create a new
means of studying and articulating our Philosophy and Theurgy - that is something Ive started
doing, and of course you have people like Daniel Gunther out there, whose aeonic
psychology (a term I coined for his teachings) is I think an extremely important intellectual
contribution to what youre describing as the Modus of Scientific Illuminism.

In a very unique OTO sense, Im also very keen to see us study the works of Alfred Adler. I
think that Adler will be to OTO, what Jung can be to A..A.. I was totally blown away by my
friend Toby Churtons book The Beast in Berlin - Id never appreciated before just how deep
Crowley was into - and liked as a person to hang with - Adler. And I think theres a lot we can
learn and embed into our scholarship from Adlers Gemeinschaftsgefhl - social feeling. Now
seeing youve mentioned metaphysics, I hope you wont mind me quoting you some Adler think of the OTO during this:

"Social feeling means above all a struggle for a communal form that must be thought of as
eternally applicable... when humanity has attained its goal of perfection... an ideal society
amongst all mankind, the ultimate fulfilment of evolution...I see no reason to be afraid of
metaphysics; it has had a great influence on human life and development. We are not blessed

with the possession of absolute truth; on that account we are compelled to form theories for
ourselves about our future, about the results of our actions, etc. Our idea of social feeling as the
final form of humanity - of an imagined state in which all the problems of life are solved and all
our relations to the external world rightly adjusted - is a regulative ideal, a goal that gives our
direction. This goal of perfection must bear within it the goal of an ideal community, because all
that we value in life, all that endures and continues to endure, is eternally the product of this
social feeling.

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Okay - Im getting carried away. Next question!
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3. What is your vision for the future in regards to the establishment of the Centre for
Duplexed Studies, and what exactly does that mean?

The name Im envisioning is actually the Centre for Studies in Duplexity. Im going to quote
directly from a talk I am preparing to deliver in Italy in a few weeks time - Duplexity is an
archetype, just keep that in mind:

I define its function in the New Aeon as the passionate union of opposites. In particular, we
apply this function to the two Orders, OTO and A..A... Duplex comes from duo two
and plicare to wind, to coil, to fold up together. So Duplexity is a perspective that sees the
Orders as working together in close alliance. We hold that there is an archetypal truth behind
this, which when encountered leads to new perspectives about that close alliance. These
perspectives collectively become a unique logical dimension or universe of discourse - a
way some of us approach Initiation in the Aeon of the Child.

The term Duplexity was coined by my friend, brother and comrade in arms Dathan
Biberstein of the US OTO. Dathan wrote a seminal essay a few years ago that inspired
Daniel Gunther and myself to lecture together on Duplexity in Tokyo in 2011, since which
time research into the subject has gone globalDathan coined the term Duplexity from
Crowleys encounter with the archetype in 1915 - so post the Paris Working and during the
process of reconstituting the Order. This encounter occurred as a result of working the
Ceremony of the Equinox. This Ceremony is a sexual Opus of the A..A.. to obtain the Word of
the Masters for the Equinox...In the 1915 working Crowley recordedDuplex was placed in my
mind with a clarity and certitude that I have never previously known...It is a word of mystic
marriage of A..A.. and OTO.: Thats another way you could define Duplexity - the
mystic marriage of A..A.. and OTO.

Thats enough of the quote. Keep in mind that talk on Duplexity clocks in at 20,000 words! So
the above is at best a slight overview. But in the language of Duplexity as a discipline or
doctrine, Daniel Gunther and I refer to this as the Grand Experiment of the Secret Chiefs Daniel coined that. The notion of running two Systems for the Aeon simultaneously.

The Centre, once we set that up, will really be a body for the global dissemination of research
and knowledge exchange in this specialist subject - so a research network if you like for the
aspirants of OTO and A..A.. exploring this Experiment. I envision things like holding

conferences and publishing proceedings, journals, that kind of thing, while developing the
Scientific Illuminist pedagogy and methodologies best fitted to this universe of discourse.

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4. Do you feel that O.T.O. Australia will see the fulfilment and certain establishment of
Baphomets Liber CI and Liber CXCIV in our lifetime?

Of course - were already on that trajectory. Id be cautious about locking us in to 100 year old
Constitutional documents though! The challenge is to get to the body of the garment beneath
the text and adapt with the times where you need to. You also need to locate these documents
within their proper context - where Baphomet was at with the OTO at that particular time, which
usually means what Grade was he in A..A.. at that time. His perspectives on the OTO develop
over time according to his particular spiritual outlook and historical context. In other words, its
not as simple as just implementing what a constitutional paper says. It needs to be thought
through on multiple levels.

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5. What was the initial spark of inspiration if you will, that led to your collaborating and
Lecturing with Brother J.Daniel Gunther?

Well, the spark was actually Daniel himself! He just said to me one day on his first Australian
visit that we should go and light a fire in the East together. So, with our close Brother Hiroyukisan and the good brethren of Japan, we organised some joint lectures in the East. In Tokyo to
be precise. And we lit a fire! It was during that process that the whole Duplexity thing came
down and we both lectured about that from the distinct perspectives of the OTO and the A..A..

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And men began to light fires upon the earth. (Liber 27)

6. With the Period of Speech (to phrase it one way) that we have witnessed issuing from
the Mouth of the A..A.., and largely due to your own personal efforts, do you feel that we
are close to healing the rift and repairing the damage that was done (likely due to the
clash of the Titans i.e. Motta and McMurtry) to the relationship between A..A.. and
O.T.O.? Thus bringing it back in to line with 666s original design?

I think were getting there, slowly, but my work benefits from how blessed I am to stand on the
shoulders of my elders, giants who in different ways have been working on this a lot longer than
me - people like Daniel, Hymenaeus Beta, Jim Wasserman plus these days there are a LOT
more, as you probably know even just from within Australia. To call a spade a spade though while you have leaders, even national leaders at times, subscribing to the fallacy of supposed

A..A.. lineages or variants, or where the pretenders and their groups are culturally enmeshed
into local or even national OTO operations, things are going to be sensitive and problematic.
You pointed out to me that old quote from Jim a few weeks ago, remember? Let me read it
back to you now:

I think the greatest failure of O.T.O. has been our unwillingness to publicly criticize the modern
fallacy of A..A.. lineages. I appreciate the thinking behind this allowing people maximum
freedom to make choices, including bad choices. But I believe we have a doctrinal obligation to
point out pretenders, misguided spiritual interpretations, and erroneous behaviour.

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Im with Jim on that one, frankly.
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7. What do you think is the biggest challenge that O.T.O. Australia is going to have to
face in the next decade?

That is a hard one to pinpoint - every aspect of the Work is a big challenge! Basically we just
need to keep Going - developing the fivefold plan of Lodge, Chapter, Senate, Church and
Syllabus in our operational Centres - keep the constitutional, ecclesiastical, legal, publishing and
educational apparatus developing; establish profess-houses; retain our members; develop our
resources, finances, and numbers, as well as membership capacity; keep having fun; enjoy
sustainability, quality and inherited succession of leadership; have a professional marketing
outreach and visibility in our communities and over our media; keep up and promote the arts as
well as scholarly rigour in our studies; have a tight, close but diverse membership where the
bonds of the OTO are truly upheld; develop the Triads; preserve the Secret of the Sovereign
Sanctuary and make provision for its research and archive. Were also now at a level of
organisational maturation here that some of our elder members are hitting middle or old age,
retirement, or illness, so we also have to be mindful, organisationally, of developing the fraternal
networks and support resources to help out how we can. Were a small organisation in a
country that comparatively speaking has a small population - Thelema is in many respects a
challenge in itself here, let alone a Thelemic initiating and membership organisation. At the
Executive level of OTO - so this is my work with Robert and Adam - we talk of (the symbolic)
500 man march - that the challenge for us will be getting our first 500 members. But once
there we say well be able to feed the 5000 - thats our metaphor for 5000 members. I guess
the 500 is a challenge for the next decade.

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8. How far away do you feel the Gnostic Catholic Church is from securing
denominational status and being legally recognized as a religious entity in this country?
And what are some sure steps that we can take in this direction?

I cant really say how far away we are - we need to have a constructive and ongoing dialogue
with the Government, and I think it may take some time to a) get across who we are and what
we do, but also b) develop our own facilities to meet their established indicia and criteria. You
see, religion is treated strangely in Australia - this is due to section 116 of our Constitution which
I want to quote to you:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any
religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test
shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
So, when we were litigating a few years ago and an argument was put forward that Thelema
was an unlawful religion the Judge threw it out immediately. And the taxation office recognises
us as a non-profit religious institution. However, recognised denominational status is handled
by a separate limb of government. These things take time - its about fostering a mutual
understanding and dialogue. And we have to take the high road and be realistic.
What we can do now is establish our public Temples - as Ive authorised this year, as you would
know in Adelaide and in Fremantle. Your readers can look at the websites:
http://www.egcfremantle.com/
http://www.egcadelaide.com/

The Temples need vocationally driven Clergy - as we have in Adelaide and Fremantle - who can
reach out to Congregations spanning all ages, a broad and diverse Church, of OTO members
and others, with Clergy who are able to meaningfully engage with their congregation. To truly
function as Priests and Priestesses within communities - to be there for their community. This is
entirely distinct to treating the Mass or the Church as an insular OTO local body event. And its
an entirely different class of Clergy I am talking about here. Where we are operational I want to
build Churches and family friendly ecclesiastical communities. I see enormous potential here we need to grow into it, but this field of Our Lord is fertile and just waiting for us to cultivate over
time. We also need a quality episcopate and were doing what we can to up the education
across the Board. So, I lean heavily on Bishop Tau Amrit who is coordinating EGC operations
and managing our online EGC eLearning portal. And every second year we now have an EGC
Retreat really just for the Clergy of EGC, recognised or novitiate. These plans will develop over
time but work in tandem with the recognised denomination work.

9. If you had to narrow down your years of experience to form one concise piece of
advice that you could offer to our younger Brethren as they trudge through what can be a
quite trying Man of Earth, what would it be?

Actively participate in the OTO experience. Study our System - well, in our prescribed official
editions of our literature and rituals, rather than from online forums or pirated editions of our
literature or our Secrets. Meditate on the Holy Books of Thelema. Observe our Oaths. Walk
humbly. Walk humbly. Walk humbly. And stick around. Theres a comment by Crowley in The
Law is For All, from memory, which has always really resonated with me in relation to OTO: if
were not enjoying our Work it is evidence we are doing it wrong.

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Enjoy yourselves.
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10. We find many students, as they approach the Sacred Mysteries of Self, getting caught
in the web that finds them screaming out for the True Will to hit them like a bolt of
lightning or to miraculously appear before them upon a neon flashing sign as an answer
to all their lifelong queries. What words of wisdom could you offer these aspirants that
perhaps become enmeshed in the complex that can evolve from the pursuit of their True
Will?

If I am understanding your question correctly, I would advise attentiveness. Attentiveness to the

One Word in particular. We have spoken about this before and I actually quote a letter I wrote
to you in another one of my Italian talks - this one on alchemy. If you dont mind, I want to
remind you of that email - it is quoted in this part of the talk:

(This commences with a discussion of LXV:5:5) The Path of Initiation involves the
transformation of the Nephesh from a state of idle wandering - to be both blind to and blinded by
the Unconscious elements - to a fixed condition of attentiveness to the One Word, the allseeing
Spirit emerging out of the elemental Unconscious, the darkness of the earth the yielding to the
Eye of Hoor, the fiery star which at the beginning is unknown yet manifests as true Aspiration for
the selfless ones who would but enflame themselves in prayer.

About the time that I first drafted the original transcript of this talk, a very good friend of
mine asked me about attentiveness to the One Word. We were exploring how this might
be compared to discovery of the Stone of the Philosophers, and how that has been treated
in the literature. If you keep in mind that Im writing informally to a close Brother and trying
to do so minus the technical detail the subject can tend to get bogged down in, I am going
to resist the temptation to edit or expound and just quote exactly what I wrote.

My personal take on these things is that your Word, that one unique teaching you bring to
the world, grows with the person constantly - you Understand it more and more and it
develops with the person, and manifests in the work you must achieve in incarnation, which
may in turn express what you have been doing for incarnations. It is a representation of
Going. It is to Go. If it is True and not just a static insight - no matter how insightful - it
automatically expresses itself in EVERYTHING: every facet of life, thought, deed and
action. It is immortal and ever seeks to reveal more of its nature to you. It is outside of you
yet wedded to you. You were meant for each other. And yet, the Word is but the image of
an image that is Bliss. Every event in life is in someway a result or a lesson in it, as is
every mistake. Like an Unconscious mantra forever running in the back of your head, all
phenomena you experience is automatically interpreted and revealing of this Word. Your
life is then singularly changed once you Understand what is going on. The Voice of Silence
speaks and everything is a dealing of God with the soul. This is incommunicable, intimate,
but unmistakable - it is certainty not faith. And then our tasks, obligations and ordeals
merely refine the rapture.

In the language of alchemy, this is the condition of fixing the volatile to discover the secret
lapis. We call this perspective and Way, Centroversion - to turn towards the centre - a
combination of introversion and extroversion, yet having a character all its own - thats
the secret lapis - an independent condition. Just like the New Aeon, it distills the essence of
inherited Aeons and establishes a unique, individual perspective that surpasses that
inheritance - the True Will of ones inmost True Nature. The various magical attainments
and ordeals that we speak of in Thelema are all a part of that ongoing process of spiritual
transformation.

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11. Where have you come from? A brief back ground prior to joining the OTO and what
lead you to this Path?

How many incarnations do you want to go back? Just kidding. Lets keep this simple - Late
70s/early 80s punk rock, political activism, reading counter-culturalists, Carl Jung, and a latent
religiousity Ive had all my life, plus my passionate, lifelong belief in the Brotherhood of Man, and
in human dignity and freedom - all led me to the Order. I still distinctly remember reading Liber
OZ for the first time. I had never felt so at peace and at home in what had been up until then
the life of an angry young man. And I never looked back.

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12. Could you sum up the experience of working on Magick Without Tears?
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Magick with Tears! It has been an initiation - seriously! But I am so grateful and blessed to
have found a friend, collaborator and co-editor in Clint Warren, from South Africa. The man is a
genius and I do not say that lightly. I am what you could call a magical editor. I have no formal
training. So, working on a book like this I basically assume the godform - I have to get into
Aleisters head at the time of writing. I need to think how he is thinking and see the work with
his eyes. The problem though, is Aleisters headspace at this time was pressed, stressed,
desperate, driven, illumined, frantic, panicked and worried. Lets just say the project has
thrown me and taken me to the heights and depths of all types of emotions and insights and
mental states. He really gives us the full system in this book. Ultimately the experience has
been one of sincere humility at the pleasure and obligation to work on this; plus guilt and regret
at how long it has been taking me, if I can be honest about it - my life went to chaos as soon as I
agreed to the job! Also, my extreme gratitude to Hymenaeus Beta for trusting me with such an
important work in our Canon. I feel deeply obligated to humanity to do a good job. No existing
edition does it credit in my view.

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13. Your own personal closing words to our audience.
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Thanks very much for having me. Well if I could paraphrase a greater man than I will ever be:
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Life and Liberty are threatened everywhere.

We need a watchword and a banner for the battle.

We need a principle on which to reconstruct.
And so:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
If you want freedom
You must fight for it.
If you want to fight
You must organize.
If you want to organize

- join the O.T.O.

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Love is the law, love under will.
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Conducted 2014 by Brother Giuseppe & Sister Tikky Zappia, Alpha and Omega Lodge Ordo Templi
Orientis South Australia. All content remains the property of Ordo Templi Orientis and may not be
reproduced without express permission of the author/s.