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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 11TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. F05-00846
Defendant. ------------------------------------/ Gerstein Justice Building Miami, Florida November 22, 2010
The above-entitled case came on for hearing before the Honorable JACQUELINE HOGAN-SCOLA, as Judge of the Circuit Court, in court pursuant to notice.
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OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY KATHERINE FERNANDEZ-RUNDLE BY: ABBE RIFKIN, ASA -AND- HILLAH MENDEZ, ASA -AND- JOEL ROSENBLATT, ASA FOR THE DEFENDANT: TERENCE LENAMON, ESQUIRE -AND- DAVID MARKUS, ESQUIRE
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MONDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2010, 9:49 A.M. (Prior proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). MR. LENAMON: Judge, the defense would call Dr. Marvin Dunn. THE COURT: All right. Dr. Dunn. Raise your right hand and be sworn or affirmed. MARVIN DUNN Ph.D., called as a witness on behalf of the Defense having been duly sworn by the Cler , was examined and testified as follows: THE WITNESS: I do. THE COURT: You can ma e yourself as comfortable as possible in the witness stand. Address all comments to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury over to your right. Please eep your voice up, and when you are ready, state and spell your full name. THE WITNESS: My name is Marvin Dunn, M-A-R-V-I-N,
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LENAMON: Q Good morning, Dr. Dunn. Would you introduce
yourself to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury. A Good morning. My name is Marvin Dunn. I'm a
retired professor from FIU, and at the end my career of 35 APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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years at FIU, I was chairman of the psychology department when I retired three years ago. Q Dr. Dunn, could you describe for the jury
your educational bac ground, please. A I was graduated from high school early in the 11th
grade. I was educated in public schools of Florida. In 1957 I was admitted to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. I received a Bachelor's degree from Morehouse College. I then became a Naval officer, served seven years in the Navy. I served on aircraft carriers during that time. I received my Master's degree from Roosevelt University in Chicago while I was in the Service. When I left the Service, I entered the University of Tennessee at Knoxville in the doctoral program in psychology.
in developmental psychology and clinical psychology. My certification when I graduated was considered community psychology. In community psychology, we ta e a -- we learn about clinical psychology and social psychology and try to understand how the community and things outside the person impact behavior.
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what did you do? A My first job was in the Miami-Dade County Public
School System as a school psychologist in what we'll call Title 1 schools. These were schools that tended to have a large proportion of poor students. My first job was at Tuc er Elementary School in Coconut Grove. I wor ed for about a year, year and a half. Q A What year was that, Doctor? 1971 to 1972 basically. Then I was also at Drew
Middle School in Liberty City for about a school term. I then -- FIU opened in 1972, I joined the faculty as a psychology professor.
University as a professor in psychology? A Q 34 years. And what was whatever the position you ultimately
vice-president at the university, and then I returned by my choice to the department, where I retired as chairman. Q During the period of time as a professor of
psychology, prior to that and during that tenure did you conduct any independent studies involving the clinical psychology that you were practicing in? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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A Q
Studies, oh, yes. Could you describe some of those studies to the
poverty, race, environmental factors, crowding, things of that sort, on behavior. I published studies dealing with dysfunctional familiars, juvenile crime. I did an in-depth study -- the first study I did was of a murder, quadruple murder that too place in Miami-Dade
from Liberty City who murdered four people in one night with a screwdriver. That case enticed me because I couldn't imagine -- this child was 15 when this happened. I was intrigued by the
with his hands. So, it was the first case that drew me into the JAB housing project where I did an in-depth study of his family, published an article in the Herald on the case, became involved with the boy's mother in terms of trying to find out more about the neighbor impacts on him as he was coming up.
something li e 900 years; spared only because of his age from the death penalty. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
sentenced to
County 1979 and 1978, involving a young man who was blac
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And I went to the home, met the mother, met several neighbors, did a neighborhood study involved in the project and found out that within just a few yards of where this young man lived there were several other families that had young men on death row or in prison for serious assault and other crimes of that sort. So the issue of to what extent does environment impact a person's li elihood to become involved in a crime became of interest to me.
very well, in fact, too her to death row -- I'm sorry -- to prison, to Rayford to see her son on one occasion. And ultimately, in that particular case it ended with
have you focused on this particular area in conjunction with individuals from impoverished communities and different bac grounds?
A Q
studies over your career? A Q Oh, yes. Yes. Many of them over the years. Have you published any written material regarding
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him being
I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question. Have you continued to conduct those ind of
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Post, Los Angeles Times; most of those articles dealing with race issues, juvenile issues, things of that sort. Q And I'm showing you -MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON:
purchase? A Q Yes, sir. 1997 it was published. And can you describe briefly what you wrote about? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Well, what's the topic just generally? THE WITNESS: It dealt with the presence of blac s in Miami-Dade County over a long period of time. It dealt with in-depth studies of some of the neighborhoods. Blac neighborhoods; Coconut Grove, Liberty City, Opa-Loc a, et cetera, up through the 1980s. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, Doctor, were you hired in this case to assist APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
1980s, I thin .
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the defense in preparation for the penalty phase? A Q that? Yes. Can you tell the jury how you became involved in
dealing with this case and invited me to participate as a mitigating witness in this case. THE COURT: I'm sorry, participate what? THE WITNESS: To participate in this case as providing mitigating circumstances, if there were any, in this particular case. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, Doctor, previous to you getting involved in
this case, had you been hired before and requested to provide mitigating circumstances on other cases? A Yes, a few other cases. I'd say over the last ten
years, I may have been involved in as many as maybe seven or eight cases over ten years or so. Q Have you always been able to provide the defense
with mitigation? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. MR. LENAMON: Participatory involvement. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, Doctor, what records were you provided in APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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was provided a timeline for his life. I was provided transcripts of testimony from police officers in this case. I was provided certain depositions in this case, testimony of Mr. Nelson's aunt in a previous incident, other documents that I can't recall at the moment, but a very large stac of documents. I'm sorry, I also reviewed some of the testimony or depositions of some of the other expert witnesses. Q Were you provided the actual statement of the
defendant's confession in this case? A Yes. I was provided videotape and a written, I
preparation for your testimony today? A Q Yes, I did. Were you provided access to Mr. Nelson to
Several times. Could you describe to the jury your meetings with
him and to what extent you met with him? A Well, I met with him probably at least a dozen APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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have motivated this behavior. I wanted to now particularly as much as I could find out about his environment growing up. I wanted to now a lot of about his family situation. I was particularly interested in his early years between ages one and four. I was interested in his mother and his father, and I was interested in essentially how he grew up and the circumstances that he faced as he grew up. Q How much experience did you have dealing with
difficult students. I was principal of that school for over 15 years. The students who came to us were students who were failing in the Dade County school system. Most of them had absentee problems, acting out problems, and I would did say perhaps 70 percent of them or more came from families that were bro en families. Most of those were families in which the fathers had abandoned the families. Some of them were from foster homes. All of them were in trouble, otherwise they would not APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
to get to
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have been in our school, and my job was to interview them and interview their families, get to now their needs, help to plan educational programs for them, to provide counseling, if possible, and try to help them get out of school with a diploma. And our school was one of the best alternative high schools in the state. Our graduation record with those students exceeded that of most of the Dade County Public Schools. Q A Q A Have you dealt with abandoned children? Yes, sir. How would you define abandoned children? A child who was abandoned or left by his or her
consistencies or inconsistencies in the behavior of abandoned children? A Q Yes. And what conclusions have you reached generally
being abandoned. Most children who have been abandoned by their fathers manage to survive being abandoned by their fathers. That doesn't mean they don't have problems. A lot of the young APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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men as they evolve have trouble with discipline, boundaries, anger management, completing tas s. They require a substitute father, someone li e a coach or a principal or teacher who steps in and provides a male figure for them.
a grandmother steps in or someone else comes in and raises the child. With the abandonment of mothers, it's a different situation. Q A Why is it a different situation, Doctor? Maternal abandonment hurts in a way that is very,
very difficult to get over. The mother is supposed to be the one who is there when no one else is there. Children who have been given up by their mothers, even as grown people, don't get over it. They remember the pain, it's a lifelong impact on everybody, even those fol s who manage to grow up and live with somebody else and even have children of their own, the pain of having been given up by a mother has never really left the person.
happens beyond her ability to be with the child, that's different. The cases that present the most difficulty of those in which the mother willingly gives up the child or the child is ta en away from the mother because of the mother's
illed or something
But most
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inability to raise the child. When this happens with very young children, say ages one to four or one to six, the impact can be devastating. Q How would you describe behaviors of someone that
are left by their mothers, particularly boys. They tend to be angry. They tend to have impulse problems. They tend to have difficulties with authority figures. They have a lot of trouble loving anybody. It is as if they never develop the primary love relationship between mother and child, every other relationship is potentially a difficult one for them. It's as if the very first bonding people ma e with their mothers when that doesn't go right, there are developmental problems in terms of their emotional and psychological development following that, that's very difficult for most people to get beyond. If you have someone who has other inds of problems on top of that, intellectual problems or physical problems, temperamental problems, then you have a very serious situation. Q Now, Doctor, you have researched and studied
developmental disorders. Can you tell the jury what a developmental disorder is? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Grounds? MS. RIFKIN: Relevance to this defendant. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Q Go ahead, Doctor. Could you restate the question? Could you explain to the jury what a developmental
disorder is?
even en utero, before they are born. Loo at how people change from the time they are born
at changes over life, particularly major stages of life li e entering school, marriage, divorce, wor , all of those benchmar s in life presents challenges.
change over time. Particularly as they encounter things in the environment that are difficult or that might disrupt that normal development, such as abandonment or trauma, things of that sort. Q A What is emotional disorder? Emotional disorder occurs when a person has had
some sort of traumatic experience. Something damaging, APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
at how people
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something that's difficult for them to get over that follows them through life, that impacts other things they do following that event.
point of the person's life, even in the first two or three years of life. Q disorder? A Attachment disorder happens when a child does not Now, is attachment disorder a developmental
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particularly with the mother. Children who don't attach themselves to the mother have difficulty with attaching themselves to anything else. There are certain behaviors that evolve with people who have attachment disorders and the most -THE COURT: Attention or de? THE WITNESS: Attachment. THE COURT: Attachment. THE WITNESS: Attachment disorders. And one of
disorders is that people who surfer that have a lot of trouble maintaining relationships over the course of their lives. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, based on -APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
the things we
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to they earliest
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of Russia in children who were raised in orphanages. And these were children who had everything they needed in terms of physical care, food, shelter, medical care, but they are raised in orphanages. They spent most of their early time in cribs without anybody touching them or holding them or having contact with them as a mother would. And these children were studied, some of them were fine over time, but many of them developed emotional problems even into adulthood. And among those problems that they developed was trouble attaching themselves to anybody else. What these studies showed was that children who were not held, who did not have tactile stimulation from anybody, but particularly from the mother have emotional deficits that are very difficult to mitigate or get over. Q Now, you were provided information
about Mr. Nelson witnessing some sexual violence involving his sister? A Q Yes. And you were provided some information about facts
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MS. RIFKIN: Objection to the term facts. THE COURT: Sustained. You can reword it. BY MR. LENAMON: Q You were provided some information about
Mr. Nelson's mother having a problem with alcohol? A Q That's correct. Do you hypothesis at all about the relationship
his sister had in relation to raising Grady Nelson at a very young age. A Q A Q His sister? His sister who died. I'm sorry, please restate the question. Do you have an opinion based on the information
that you were provided, the role that his sister played in raising Grady Nelson up to the point that she died?
support that he needed that his mother did not provide for him.
psychology because we
you. I thin
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in the same bedroom with them other than modesty. A child who witnesses his parents having sex have experience regarding the primal scene. THE COURT: I'm sorry, I can't hear you because
please. Than you. You're saying primal -THE WITNESS: Primal scene. THE COURT: Scene as in S-C-E-N-E? THE WITNESS: Yes. Primal scene. MS. RIFKIN: Judge, I'm objecting to the relevance of this. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Do you have an opinion as to -- you testified that
Grady Nelson witnessed -- the information that you were provided, that Grady Nelson witnessed his sister having sexual relations with somebody, either forced or unforced? A Q That's correct, yes. Does that factor into your characterization of
Grady Nelson dealing with primal scene? A Q A Yes. As a young child -Can you explain that to the jury? As a child of four or five years of age to see
actually anyone having sex, has an impact on a child. To APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
ids sleep
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see someone who is close to that person, particularly someone maybe even a substitute mother having sex, even if it's consensual sex presents a problem to most young children seeing that. MS. RIFKIN: Judge, I'm going to object based upon substitute mother. Assuming facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Well, you have an opinion that based on your
review of the record and the information provided, that his sister acted as a substitute mother? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. LENAMON: Judge, we need to come sidebar. THE COURT: Sure. (Proceedings at bar follow): (Proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). (Proceedings held in open court.) THE COURT: O ay. O ay. So, Doctor, if you can, either spea up or use the microphone. That would be very helpful.
more often.
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BY MR. LENAMON:
you were using to formulate that opinion. Can you describe where you got that information from and what that information was about his view of his sister who was illed or died? A Q A Q A
Where did I get that information from? Where did you get that information from? He discussed it with me, for one thing. I also -O ay. I also got that information from some of the other
phase of Dr. Heather Holmes? A Q A Q Yes. O ay. You used that as part of your conclusion? That is correct. O ay. And you indicated that exposure to just
viewing this sexual activity is damaging. Can you explain that to the jury? A Yes. For very young children to witness people APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
hand so we'll
now.
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emotionally disturbing to them. If a child of a very young age witnesses sexual behavior, particularly if they see it on a regular basis and especially if it involves one or more of their parents, it is very potentially damaging to that child. They don't understand it, if it is a male child even, if it's between mother and dad, it disturbs boys because they thin that mother is being hurt. So it's important for children not to be exposed to people having sex because of the traumatic impact it has, because of the long-term impact that it has. It doesn't much matter if it's it consensual sex or not for a very young child, but, of course, if a child is old
believing that there was some violent act attached to that, that would be more traumatic? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, leading. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q How do you distinguish an additional violent act
or assault,
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A Q
How do you distinguish it? Yes. I mean, how does it add to it or ta e away
from that experience to a child? A Much more frightening. Much more damaging. The
child then associates violence with sex in a way that's not natural. It's perverted. So, it's a very unfortunate and very dangerous connection for a child to see sex and violence at the same moment because it has an impact that could be very damaging over a long period of time. In fact, it helps to explain sexual perversion to some degree.
about that someone who suffers sexual trauma -MS. RIFKIN: Objection, leading. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Are you familiar with any studies regarding sexual
trauma and individuals who become abusive? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Doctor, have you studied individuals who abuse
other individuals sexually? A Yes, sir. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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the abuser? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, unless the doctor is an expert. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. LENAMON: Judge, can I come sidebar? THE COURT: Sure. (Proceedings at bar follow): (Proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). (Proceedings held in open court.) BY MR. LENAMON: Q Doctor, is there a correlation between someone who
has been sexually abused themselves and someone who sexually abuses? A Absolutely. A very significant correlation
between the two things. Q Now, you indicated that you were provided
information or at least you reviewed a deposition of his aunt that was given in the 1990 case? A Q Yes, sir. So you are familiar with the fact that his aunt
had ta en Grady down to Miami sometime around the age of four or five years old? A Yes, sir. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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abandonment and assuming in a light most favorable to the State that the aunt raised him in an environment that was perfect? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Let's say hypothetically that the aunt had raised
Grady Nelson in an environment that was loving and caring, how does that still factor into the maternal abandonment issue? A Being raised by the aunt is not the same as being
raised by your momma or your grandmother. That's no substitute for the mother. So, even if he had been raised by an aunt in a very supportive loving environment, it does not mean that the emotional damage that might have been caused when he was -his mother, been abandoned by her was not there. MS. RIFKIN: Objection, assuming facts fought in evidence regarding abandonment. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON:
Exhibit No. Q. You indicated that you were a school psychologist for some time before you went to FIU? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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A Q A Q
Yes, sir. So you wor ed with students? Yes. I'm showing you the school records from 1967, '68,
'69, showing that there was significant absenteeism during that period of time when he was in Miami. Can you -MS. RIFKIN: Objection, leading. THE COURT: He hasn't as ed a question. MS. RIFKIN: Regarding the absenteeism, Judge. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q and why? A Yes, sir. During the years I was a school Can you explain to the jury if that's important
principal, the first thing we loo ed at in determining if a child was in trouble was how much time the child was out of school. A child was out of school for a significant period of time said to us that there was something wrong. Either the
terms of supervision, but some of the first signs that there's something wrong at home. So, loo ing at this record, just glancing at it, it loo s as if this person was absent an extraordinary amount of time from school, that should have been a red flag. Q And these Miami-Dade records, so that's after he APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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child is sic
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came to Miami? A Q A Q Yes, sir. He was being raised by his aunt? Yes, sir. Now, why is it that two children may be raised in
the same environment but one child may turn out differently than the other? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. LENAMON: Judge, this is -THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, in your review of all the material and your
interviews with Mr. Nelson, the transcripts that you reviewed, all the documents and everything that you were provided, have you reached an opinion regarding Grady Nelson? A Q A Yes. And can you tell the jury what your opinion is?
I thin he's a damaged person. I thin he is developmentally damaged. I thin he's not a normal person in the sense of having evolved in the way that most people do in terms of their sexual development and their overall development. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
Yes. I thin
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have an assessment of any disorders that he may have suffered? A Yes. My assessment is that he probably suffered
some sort of traumatic experience earlier in life, possibly one involving his neglect and/or abandonment by his mother and also he seems to exhibit behavior of someone who has been sexually abused. Q Now, you also had an opportunity to study and
write on the history of African-American and the way they were treated in history, have you not? A Q Yes, sir. Did you have an opinion how things were in
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child? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, assuming facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Would you be surprised if there was little
evidence -THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, Grady Nelson went to school during what
period of time in Miami based on your interview with him? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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A Q
Elementary school through high school. And during this period of time what was the school
system set up for? A Well, the school system during that time at least
in the early of '60s and late '50s was still segregated, racially segregated.
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system. So, you had some upheaval in the school system in Dade
Washington High School were being bussed over to Miami Beach High. You had parents objecting to it. Blac parents objecting to it. You had white parents objecting to their ids being bussed from Overtown. So, it was a very, very difficult period educationally
homes were more disrupted in terms of being bussed in and out of the community and losing a lot of the things of having your own school and your own community provides. Q Do you have an opinion as to whether Grady Nelson
for blac
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County public schools system in the period when the schools were segregated suffered as a result of it.
you, Doctor.
children in Miami-Dade County public schools in that period when the schools were segregated suffered as a result of "it." THE WITNESS: School segregation. Being required
THE COURT: Separate from white? THE WITNESS: Yes. THE COURT: You are not tal ing about the problems that occurred during the transition? THE WITNESS: Actually both. THE COURT: O ay. I just wanted to ma e sure.
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you. You have no notes; is that correct? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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Than
you. CROSS-EXAMINATION
to attend blac
schools.
clarify. You have used the word "it" there. All blac
you to
I thin
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A Q A Q A Q A Q
I have this, just given to me. Other than that? That's correct. I do not have any notes. You too no notes, right? I never ta e notes. You never ta e notes? No. Let's tal about -- first of all, you are not a
forensic psychologist, correct? A Q That's correct. You have never considered yourself a forensic
psychologist that deals with the law and deals with courtroom testimony and deals with interviewing people who are charged with crimes? A Q A Yes. And you don't do that? Well, during the time I was psychology chairman we
had a moot court at FIU in the psychology department, and I was responsible for administering the professors who wor ed in that court. So, I have some sense of forensic psychology having supervised forensic psychologists. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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Q A Q
You are not a forensic psychologist? No. You consider yourself to be a community
psychologist? A Q right? A Q Yes. You testify for defendants in death penalty cases Correct. And you testified now that you have retired,
as a mitigation witness, correct? A Q Occasionally. Well, you have done it quite a few times? MR. LENAMON: Objection, Judge. THE WITNESS: Depends on what -THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Grounds? MR. LENAMON: Mischaracterization. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q In fact, sir, the last time you testified was on
behalf of someone named LeBront Dennis about a month ago? A Q That's correct. And LeBront Dennis -MR. LENAMON: Objection. Objection. Sidebar, Judge. THE COURT: O ay. Come sidebar. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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(Proceedings at bar follow): (Proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). (Proceedings held in open court.) BY MS. RIFKIN:
into account various factors, correct? A Q Yes. You ta e into account the environment in which the
person grew up? A Q Yes. You ta e into account the environment in which the
person grew up such as the family? A Q A Q A Q A Q Yes. You ta e into account their schooling? Yes. You ta e into account what they tell you? To some degree, yes. You ta e into account what you hear from others? Yes. Let's tal about first, what you heard from
others. It's fair to say, Doctor, that even though you met with the defendant about ten to 12 times, he was not forthcoming at all? A That's a question to me. Was he forthcoming at APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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all. I thought he was forthcoming about certain things, yes. Q He was forthcoming about certain things that he
wanted to tal about, correct? A Actually he was forthcoming about some things I
to you?
few times you went there? A Q A Q That's not correct. No, sir? No. He wanted to tal to you the very first time you
were there? A I'm not sure about the very first time I was there
if he wanted to tal with me or not. But my experience with seeing him was not difficult until at the very end, but basically I was able to see him whenever I wished to.
you and it wasn't until Cindy O'Shea, the mitigation specialist, met with him that he agreed to tal to you?
to
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of the information regarding what was alleged to be in his bac ground, right?
Dr. Holmes too, correct? A from. Q You were present at team meetings where Ms. O'Shea I can't testify as to who she got information
was providing the information, correct? A No. I was present at one meeting. The other
general sense, you were present when Ms. O'Shea was providing the information? A Q Yes. And the defendant himself was not providing the
information?
specifically now?
information came from Ms. O'Shea? A Q I don't agree with that. O ay. We'll get into that.
Now, you did not give the defendant any tests? A No, I did not. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
A Q
of the
35
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to.
administer any psychological tests? A Not for some 30 years. I stopped doing that a
long time ago. Q 30 years included this defendant, you didn't give
Multiphasic exam? A necessary. Q You did not -- did you review any of the tests I had no interest in doing that. It was not
that he was given? The Wisconsin Card Sorting or any of the tests that were administered by the neuropsychologist, Dr. Ouaou. A documents. Q You didn't rely upon them because they weren't Those are not my areas. I did not review those
important to you? A Q They were not my area of expertise. And let's just say from the outset, you were
given -- you gave a final opinion to the jury that you believe the defendant is flawed and that he has problems, correct? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
36
1 2
A Q
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
not mean they will become a sexual abuser or a sexual predator or a sexual terrorist?
could become that, they would become one. Q That's right. It does not mean that because each
person is born with a certain temperament, correct? A Q Yes. And each person is born with a certain
psychological pac age? A Q That's correct. And each person is born with a certain
intellectual pac age? A Q Yes. And just because life deals you lemons doesn't
necessarily mean that you do not ma e lemonade, right? Just because things go bad -A If you have more lemons than someone else, there's APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
ma e them a murderer? A Q No. Just because someone has a crappy childhood does
37
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doesn't have it. Q A Better lemonade, right? It depends what you are going into the situation
with. I'm simply saying that people are born with different capacities and temperaments and what have you and how the environment plays on that and who you have as a supporting cast in terms of the parents, school, what have you,
addicted mother and a father who also was on drugs and maybe wasn't there, you would expect that person to be -- and then
degree, Master's degree and opening up their own business is someone who was born with the certain temperament, a certain psychological pac age and the certain wherewithal too pull themselves up and do it themselves, right? A Well, in psychology we have the term called
protective factors which means that even if you are born with a very difficult situation, terrible situation, that there are certain factors that could protect you from those APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
went into foster care at the age of 12, you would thin
that
iller.
38
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
things. For example, let's say your mother abandoned you, but
So, the chances of your becoming involved in some crime or something li e that would be less, for example, from someone whose grandmother didn't ta e them in but the State raised them in a foster home or they bounced from one place to another. Protective factors have a way of mitigating against some of the bad circumstances we were just tal ing about. And among those protective factors are intelligence. Some could be born with a higher level of intelligence and could therefore, manage to operate in an environment in a way that mitigates against some of these things that are there that could cause them trouble. Temperament is a factor. Some people are born with an even temperament so even if they get angry, they don't get as angry or as violent as someone else. And this is from birth. You can see this in babies as soon as they are born. Some are very frantic and have a hard temperament, others are very mellow. So, you're correct, there are things you are born with that you then ta e out into the world. And how you come out
of growing up and how much support there is or protective APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
39
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
factors there are for having you not become a thief or a criminal of some sort. Q Even people who are born into a good life,
everybody has got problems, right? A Q A That's my opinion. Everybody has a reason to act badly, right?
and say this is the reason I'm acting badly. A Q A It depends on what the one thing is. Whatever? Well, no not whatever. If the one thing is your
momma left you when you were four years old and you were raised by somebody who was not in control of themselves and who had, for whatever reason, had to give you up, that's one ind of thing that could happen to you. On the other hand if you don't pass 2nd grade and you
on what the particular factor is in terms of how it will affect what you do later on. Q It is how it affects you, not how it affects
at it and go (indicating)?
I don't
40
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
part, the basis of your opinion is one-third from the defendant, right? A I didn't say that. The defendant, others, the
records, so probably if you balance it all out. I'm not sure of the facts. Maybe a third from him, possibly. Q One-third of the opinion comes from the defendant,
One-third from the records and one-third from what the investigators and other people told you. A Q A Q I understand. So it's one-third, one-third, one-third? More or less, yes. And it's true that he, the defendant, is not a
very good historian? A Q That's correct. In fact, he's not a particularly good witness
about his own bac ground? A Q That's correct. And, in fact, Doctor, you could not rely upon one
thing he said?
I thin
O ay.
41
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
with that. Q A No? No. I thin rely, for example, on his opinion
about his mother. His opinion about his mother was very negative. I have no reason to doubt that was, given what he told me happened to him. Q So you could not rely entirely on everything he
told you, you needed corroboration? A Q That's correct. The corroboration would come from his family
That's correct. You didn't spea to his cousin Shirley? No. You didn't spea to the person who was raised in
his house as his sister named Aretha who died a year ago? A Q No, I didn't. You didn't spea to his nieces, one is named Val,
these people are all local? A No, I didn't. MR. LENAMON: Objection, Judge. She's testifying. That's not true. THE COURT: Overruled. You'll have redirect. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
42
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BY MS. RIFKIN:
A Q Wooten? A Q
No.
they lived near or far? A Q A Q That's correct. You did not spea to his daughter, Shannon Dorsey? No. Records, you loo ed at records that were provided
to you, and you stated, that his mother abandoned him, correct? A Q Yes. You did not see any records from Child Protective
Services from Georgia? A Q No. You did not see any records from any courts here
giving his aunt custody? A Q No. You did not see any records that would corroborate
that his mother abandoned him? A Well, what I was told, was that -MS. RIFKIN: Well, Judge, I -APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
43
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 life. Q record.
BY MS. RIFKIN:
records that would corroborate that his mother abandoned him? A Q No. You did not see any records that she was jailed
and unable to care for him? A Q I saw no records about that, no. And you were relying upon the defendant who is not
a particularly good historian and others told you, correct? A Q That is correct. You have no evidence whatsoever to corroborate
that the defendant's mother did anything other than give her son a better life by giving him to her sister. You having nothing to say yeah or nay? A Actually, it depends on what you mean by a better
that did not in fact happen, that she did not give him to her sister to give him a better life? A Had that happened, it would have been
highly unusual for a mother to give a child -Q Doctor, and I don't mean to interrupt you -APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
now what you were told, but you did not see any
44
MR. LENAMON: Objection, Judge. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q But my question is -MR. LENAMON: Objection. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q -- you don't have anything to -THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q -- corroborate it? THE COURT: What is your objection? SPEAKER2: He hasn't completed what he was
THE COURT: Sir, if you would answer "yes" or "no", then you can explain your answer.
MS. RIFKIN: Sure. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q it was. You have seen nothing either way to establish that the defendant's mother did not give him to his sister to give him a better life? A I have not seen anything that would suggest that, And it may have been inartful, so I apologize if
45
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
that did not happen? A Q Correct. In fact, the defendant was too young to now why
he was going to live with his aunt? In fact, that's what he told you, that he didn't remember why? A Well, I'm not sure that that's so. I'm not
direct recollection himself about his mother because he was too young? MR. LENAMON: Objection, improper impeachment. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: He did tell me some things about his mother. He did recall. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q But do you remember him telling you that he had no
direct recollection himself regarding the circumstances of living with his aunt because he was too young. A Q That's correct. And that he got the information from his aunt who
was not forthcoming about the incident. Any information he got was from the aunt who was not forthcoming? A Correct. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
about that.
46
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
prostitute, right? A Well, at one point I thought that might have been
true. But I'm not sure if that's true at all. I don't have any evidence that she was a prostitute.
children was based upon the fact that you thought the mother was a prostitute? A Q A It was not. It was not? No. She could have been having sex with somebody
and not necessarily getting money for it. It doesn't need to be a prostitution situation for him to be exposed to sex. Q What evidence do you have that she was
loving mother who was destitute and gave her children away in order to give them a better life, do you? A Q No. And yet 50 years later we are here and we
are calling her a whore? MR. LENAMON: Objection and I have a motion. THE COURT: Overruled. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
47
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 her.
MR. LENAMON: Can we come sidebar. THE COURT: No. THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question? BY MS. RIFKIN: Q whore? A I am not. You are. I'm not doing that. MS. RIFKIN: I'm not. I don't now enough about 50 years she's not here and we are calling her a
12 13 14 15 16 17
BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Now, you relied upon what was passed on verbally
from Dr. Holmes, correct? A Q To some degree, yes. And she got it from someone in the attorney office
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
that it had some sense of having been verified. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
18
wor ing on the case, Dr. Holmes didn't tell you who? A Q A Didn't tell me what. Didn't tell you who? I don't thin she did, no. now the reliability of the
11
I'd as
for a curative instruction. I need to come sidebar. THE COURT: No, you don't. Have a seat.
48
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q A
You would assume? I would assume that what I get from an attorney is
essentially verifiable, correct. I wouldn't assume that it's not true. Q You didn't get it from an attorney, you got it
from Dr. Holmes who got it from someone in the attorney's office?
office as well, who gave me information. So switching what I got from one source as opposed to the other is difficult at this point several months down the road.
No.
has testified before this jury is reliable or s illed at all, correct? A Q No. Now, as far as what he told you about his mother,
the defendant told you that his mother had troubles, right? A Q Yes. But that he had no direct recollection himself APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
You don't
49
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because he was so young? A Q A me about. Q Doctor, do you remember giving a deposition in No. No? No. He did have direct recollection that he told
this case on November 3rd, 2010, Page 45? A Q Yes. Start with Line 14. MR. LENAMON: Improper impeachment, Judge. THE COURT: O ay. Come sidebar. THE BAILIFF: Some of the jurors need a brea . THE COURT: O ay. Let's ta e a quic recess and we don't need to come sidebar. (The jury exits the courtroom). (Proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). (The jury enters the courtroom). THE COURT: Welcome bac , everyone. Please be seated. Let the record reflect the presence of the defendant, his counsel, the Assistant State Attorneys, and all 14 jurors. And, Dr. Dunn, you are still under oath. Ladies and gentlemen, I just want to point something out to you. Earlier there was a question put to this witness regarding some number of years later we are APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
50
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calling her a whore, referring to the defendant's mother. I am going to direct you to disregard such a statement. Such a statement was not made and you should ma e nothing of that. BY MS. RIFKIN:
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
sources. Do you recall that, sir? A Q Yes. O ay. And the defendant told you that he had no
direct recollection regarding his mother, himself because he was so young? A Q That is not correct. Again, do you recall giving a deposition, Doctor,
on November 3rd, 2010? A Q as was I? A Q Yes. Do you recall being as ed this question and giving Yes. And do you recall that defense counsel was there,
this answer. MR. LENAMON: Page number? MS. RIFKIN: Sure. Same Page 45 starting at Line 14. "QUESTION: Through any source, and if you could APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
tal ing about the information that you got from various
51
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
identify the source, that would be fine. If it's from the defendant, that's one thing. If it's not from the defendant, that's another. "ANSWER: Yes. That I learned that the mother had her own problems. I learned she was an alcoholic. "QUESTION: And you learned that from the defendant or from the other sources? "ANSWER: He told me that his mother had troubles, but he said he had no direct recollection himself, he was so young. But then he heard this growing up that his mother had these problems." Do you recall giving that answer? A I do recall giving that answer, but the response
that I recall giving was to another question about his recollection about his mother in which you were as ing me if he had any direct recollections about his mother. And I gave two answers in that -- I'm sorry, two instances in that answer in which he did tell me things that he did remember about his mother. Two specific things he told me about that he remembered, and I did spea to those in that deposition. Q Yes, sir, you did. You did. But you also do
recall saying he had no direct recollection himself, he was so young regarding his mother access troubles. A Regarding his mother's troubles, that's correct. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
52
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reaction to his mother, though, is not necessarily based on fact, correct? A Q I'm sorry? His reaction and what he said about his mother
is not necessarily based upon fact? A I just don't understand that question. If that's
wasn't necessarily true, then his reaction to his mother, the negative reaction to his mother would not necessarily be based upon fact? A Q That's correct, yes. And that would be based upon information that
someone else had given him? A Q A Q Correct. Which would not necessarily be true? It could possibly not be true, that's correct.
about his sister. Mr. Lenamon as ed you lots of questions regarding that. First of all, you have no documentation of what occurred with his sister, correct. A Q That's correct. You only have what was told to you by Ms. O'Shea APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
53
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
and Dr. Holmes based upon information that they got? A Q from? A Q No, I don't. O ay. Now, Mr. Lenamon as ed you about the Correct.
mother figure to him? A That was a conclusion I drew based upon the age
difference between the two of them and the fact that I had information that the mother had problems, otherwise she wouldn't have, I assume, given the children up. So the older sister, I assumed, had that role with him.
you that. He never told you that he had a mother type of relationship with his sister? A He did not use those terms. He did not use that
particular term, no. Q In fact, Doctor, most respectfully, you did not
even now that she was much older than he was, you thought she was a young girl? A Q I did? Yes, sir. You thought she was eight or nine years APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
54
1 2 3 4 5 6
old at the time of her death? A At the time of the death or at the time of the
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
probably not going to act in a motherly -- as a motherly substitute, correct? A Certainly that could happen. It happens all the ids being raised by their sisters or
even slightly older siblings. So that's not unusual for that to happen. Q Now, the defendant did not describe for you what
he witnessed, correct, the sex that he witnessed? A Q I don't recall if he described it exactly or not. In fact, what he said was his sister was
being beaten, correct? A Q A Yes. And also that she was being cut? Yes. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
thin she was older than he was at that time. Q You thought she was very young, eight or nine
I don't
55
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
certificate for Grace Dennis where she died of pneumonia? A Q occurred? A Q That's correct. He actually may have stumbled upon his sister No.
having sex. Do you brief that's possible? A Q It's possible. In fact, you don't now how much of it he watched,
if anything?
probable that he's recalling what people told him rather than his own recollection? A Q A I don't agree with that. You never said that before? Well, I'm sure that some of the things that he
reported to me were based upon things that some people told him. But what he recalls from that incident, I thin he did, in fact, recall it. I don't thin he depended upon someone APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I don't
You don't
56
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
age could recall accurately everything that happened even under very emotional events such as that? A Q A No, I don't agree with that. You don't? No. Young children can remember amazing things,
even at age three and four, particular -Q A And -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Particularly things that have a very strong
emotional impact li e being left alone by their mother, li e witnessing sex, even consensual sex, li e witnessing violence. These things stay with children, even very, very, young children.
anybody that a child of that age could recall accurately everything that happened even under very emotional events?
of that age could recall every specific thing that happened at that event, but I thin the emotional impact of it stays with the person, whether the particular details are there or not. Q What you end up with is probably a combination of
part truth and part exaggeration? A That's often the case, yes. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
that a child
57
1 2 3
having sex with someone? A we now. Yes. It could have been consensual sex as far as
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
I'm sorry? You don't have any way of nowing what happened
in a period when it was very conceivable that this could have happened. I understand the alleged assailants were white men with a young blac girl, so it's not inconceivable this could have happened, there could be no record of it. Often attac s during that period on a blac person may not have been as serious as an attac on a white person. I'm not surprised that there are difficulties in maintaining or finding records of this happening at all. Oftentimes domestic abuses among blac s in particular, were dismissed as that's just the way those people are. Q I appreciate that, Doctor, I do. But you don't
have anything to corroborate that there was, in fact, a APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
58
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was beaten? A Q A Q A Q A case. Q And, in fact, he told you that -- did he tell you No, I don't. Or that she was cut? No. And he never told you that? He never told me what? He never told you that she was beaten and cut? I may have gotten that from other sources in the
his sister's name, by the way? A Q He may have. If he was very close to her and she was almost
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
don't
17
I would thin
that he would.
59
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q A Q A Q
Did you read the village records, sir? No. You didn't read them? No. So the defense never provided you with the
evidence. MS. RIFKIN: It is. MR. LENAMON: I have no objection to her showing the doctor because I'm going to redirect on it. She opened the door. THE COURT: Is that an objection? MR. LENAMON: Yes, Judge, it is an objection. THE COURT: Grounds? MR. LENAMON: If it's in evidence, I would li e it to be shown to him and identified as an exhibit. THE COURT: Overruled. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I don't thin
I saw that.
this is introduced in
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the events were bac in 2004, right? A Q 2004? A Q Yes. Yes. And what his version of his life story was in
himself, right? A Q Yes. His view was that he was voted most li ely to
succeed in high school? A Q A Q Is that a question? Yes, sir. I don't now that for a fact. O ay. In fact, you never chec ed his
school yearboo s or anything to see if that was what his standing was at school, did you? A Q No, I didn't. Or that he believed himself to be the smartest id in the entire school? Is that a question? Yes. What's the question?
blac
A Q A Q
It would be important to
now
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the school? A don't thin Well, no, that wouldn't be important because I that's necessarily true. His assessment of id in school may not be
to believe and discarded what you chose not to believe? A Q A No. No?
and choose. We have to use what is given to us. Q Now, also the fact that you believe that he's
correct? MR. LENAMON: Objection. Facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MS. RIFKIN:
wife? MR. LENAMON: Objection, facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Overruled.
ill his
id in
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BY MS. RIFKIN:
wife? A Q A What would plan? Whatever emotional problems he has? Would it prevent him from planning it, no, it
A Q
step-children? MR. LENAMON: Objection. Again, Judge, facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q A Q A Q You find the defendant to be manipulative? Yes. You find the defendant to be violent? Yes.
account the schooling and what you testified to there was a certain amount of problems in the school? A Q Yes. And that he was bussed from the inner city to
Miami Beach Senior High School? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
ill his
into
ill his
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A Q
It wasn't just a matter of being out of their comfort zone, they were away from their parents, away from the
They were away from the familiar things that would have helped them feel comfortable in that particular school. So when they went to another community, it did present problems for them. Q Mr. Nelson never told you he felt uncomfortable at
told me that. I wasn't interested in how individual students responded to being bussed to Miami Beach High. My study was how children in general were impacted by that and my study was of how their parents, particularly
Beach. I didn't necessarily pinpoint my opinion to just what happened to Grady Nelson. Q I appreciate that, Doctor, but you are here for
Mr. Nelson's defense, not for anyone else. MR. LENAMON: Objection, Judge. That's not a APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
new.
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BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Based upon that, was there anything about his
schooling, about being bussed to Miami Beach Senior High School that you too into consideration in coming before this jury regarding mitigation? A I believe that there were educational problems
that blac children who were bussed to Miami Beach High School confronted and faced that were not problems that were presented to the white students who lived on Miami Beach who attended that school.
being able to function effectively in a school that was a strange environment for them. So, whether there were individual students succeeded in
extremely well. It does not mean that they may not have had problems in that environment. Q I appreciate that, Doctor, but Grady Nelson
specifically in that is why we are here. Did he have any specific problems while at Miami Beach Senior High School? A Q Not that I'm aware of. He told you he had no problems whatsoever? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
And I thin
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at Miami Beach High School. Q In fact, he told you that he had no problems
getting along with anyone there except a drama teacher? A I'm not sure I recall that. That's possible. I
that he had problems with was a drama teacher who failed him, which was the reason he didn't graduate until August? A Q A Q A Q I don't recall that conversation with him. O ay. He didn't tell you anything about that? I don't recall. And you reviewed his transcript from high school?
22 23 24 25
problems, correct? A I actually never heard him blame anybody for his APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
21
It would be
It would be
I thin
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Q A Q A Q
neighborhood?
Q A
He never told you that he had any problems? I don't recall him telling me about any
difficulties he had in his neighborhood. Q A Q A Q abuse? A Q abused? Yes. Did he tell anybody else that he was sexually He never told you he was sexually abused? Yes, he did. He told you he was sexually abused? Yes. And did he give you details about the sexual
Well, you reviewed the records. Did he tell APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I don't
I don't thin
I wouldn't now.
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Dr. Holmes or did he specifically deny it to Dr. Holmes? A Q years? A Well, he told me that it happened, so he didn't I don't recall. O ay. Has he specifically denied it over the
deny it in his conversation with me. Q What about Dr. Mash, did he specifically deny it
to Dr. Mash.
Q A
Did you review her records too? I don't recall what was in the record about that
he specifically deny any sexual abuse? A Q sir? A Actually, no, I didn't. My focus was on his early I never saw the records from The Village. Didn't thin it was important to loo at those,
life, not his adult life so much. Q On his early life, he told you that he grew up in
a household with a loving aunt who acted as his mother? A Q A Who what, I'm sorry? Who acted as his mother? I don't recall he ever described his aunt as
loving. I don't thin that particular term was used as I APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I don't
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can recall. He did not describe his aunt as being necessarily a problem for him. But I don't remember that he necessarily said loving. He may have, but I don't recall that. Q You also reviewed her statement from the 1990
sexual abuse case, and you can get a feel for her from that, correct? A Q Yes, I did review that. This was someone who considered the defendant to
father, she had a husband, right? A assume so. Q A Q care of? Raised him in a house where he had siblings? Yes. Where his emotional and physical needs were ta en I'm not absolutely sure about that. I would
example, the absenteeism is one indication maybe some of his needs were not ta en care of because he was not in school.
You don't
I thin
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A Q
school and he was leaving? A Q That's possible. We're doing a lot of assumptions based upon the
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event in his life, and I'm saying might, does that necessarily ma e somebody a iller? A It increases the chance of the person having a
can either choose to let them swallow us or we can choose to be rise above them?
heart. Pain stays with them, it's not a rational choice, particularly when it happens when you are very young. So, my answer is no, it doesn't happen quite that way. Q A The defendant has free will, right? That's a philosophical question. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
describe people
lac of records to corroborate any of this, right? A Q Yes. Now, the fact that he might have had a traumatic
You don't
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nothing that indicates to you that the defendant did not have free will? MR. LENAMON: Objection, Judge. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Well, I understand this defendant to be impulsive. For example, I understand there may be some things in the record that I saw, that suggested he has some frontal robe problems. It might explain some of his behavior other than just his own choice to rationally not behave in a certain way. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Just because somebody is impulsive does not
necessarily mean that they are unable to plan an event? A Q No, it doesn't mean that. Just because somebody is impulsive when they go
into a shopping mall does not mean that they cannot plan out a party later on, right? A Well, in terms of impulsivity, a person -- you
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Q A to me. Q A Q
It doesn't necessarily mean he's a genius, either. I was just saying that it seems to be a bad plan
He was capable of planning? He was capable of planning. It was capable of planning. Whether or not it was
right?
or a bad criminal, it doesn't ma e them not a criminal at all? A Q Right. Did you review the police reports and the pictures
certain way and covering their shoes in order to ma e sure that no blood gets on them, that's somebody who is planning something, right? A Not necessarily. It could have been a spur of the
moment decision to do something li e that. Q A Spur of the moment decision? It could have been, yes. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I thin
plan had he
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decision, Doctor when somebody goes to the trouble of wrapping their shoes and having a certain manner of dress? MR. LENAMON: Objection. Judge, this is facts not in evidence. She's arguing. THE COURT: Come sidebar a second, please. (Proceedings at bar follow): (Proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). (Proceedings held in open court.) BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Doctor, I'm almost done. The bottom line is, you
have no idea whether the defendant was -- witnessed anything in his childhood, you have no idea. Other than what you are assuming, right? A Q historian? A Q That's correct. You have no idea what happened in his growing up Other than what he told me. And you have already said he's not a very good
wasn't -- that it wasn't Ozzie and Harriet in his household APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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other than what he told you? A Q I bet it wasn't. You can bet all you want, Doctor, but you have
nothing whatsoever to base that on, other than your gut feeling?
difficult cases, I feel comfortable in this conclusion. Q He didn't tell you that, you don't have any to
any family members who told you otherwise? A Q Correct. By the way, towards the end -- at the beginning
the defendant didn't want to see you and at the end he certainly didn't want to see you, right? MR. LENAMON: Objection, Judge. THE COURT: Grounds? MR. LENAMON: I have to come sidebar on it. THE COURT: Come sidebar. (Proceedings at bar follow): (Proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). THE COURT: Louis, ta e the jury in the jury room for just two minutes. We'll bring you right bac . (The jury exits the courtroom). (Proceedings held in open court.) APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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THE COURT: Now that the jury is out of the room. Ms. Rif in --
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question that you would li e to as the doctor so the doctor can hear it and give us his response, so I can feel assured that what he is going to respond is not going to be something that is going to create an issue. MS. RIFKIN: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: Please tell him what the question is you want to as . BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Doctor, at one point you received a message from
Dr. Holmes letting you now that the defendant did not want you to come bac to see him? A Q Correct. And that was after you had told the defendant that
you believed that he was guilty of the murder and guilty of the sexual battery in 1990? A Q A That's not correct. That's partially correct. What part is correct? I told him one way or the other that I believed he
was guilty of the murder. I told him I assumed it was, otherwise there would be no reason for me to be involved. Q Assumed that he was. But you also believed that APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
MS. RIFKIN: Yes, ma'am. THE COURT: -- would you please proffer the
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he was guilty of the 1990 sexual battery? A That's where the problem was, yes. THE COURT: How is his recitation to the defendant what he believes relevant in any way? MS. RIFKIN: Because the defendant's reaction after that was one of anger, and was one of manipulation because after that the doctor did come to see him. He came
he wanted to watch his soap operas. THE COURT: I thin that that is irrelevant,
we are just going to leave it there unless you have another area you want to go to. MS. RIFKIN: Just briefly. I don't want to just end it on that. THE COURT: O ay. Ready to bring them in? MS. RIFKIN: Yes. THE COURT: Let's bring them in. (The jury enters the courtroom). THE COURT: Let the record reflect the presence of the defendant, his counsel, the Assistant State Attorneys and all 14 jurors. You may proceed.
more questions to as
you, Doctor.
to him,
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BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Doctor, based upon everything that you have seen
in this case and every -- including your interviews with the defendant, there's no question in your mind that he is a predator; is that correct? A Q A Q A Q That's correct. And that he is a manipulator? Correct. And that he is someone that's dangerous? Yes. And the mere fact that he grew up in an area where
there was -- there might have been crime in a time that might not have been optimal, not everybody who grew up in that time and had problems in the general community grew up
A Q
poverty stric en areas grew up to be very good people? A Q Oh, yes, it's true. Very good members of the community. Their
community, our community, the community in general? A If a person grows up in Overtown and a person
grows up in Pinecrest, there's a difference in what could happen too those people -Q I understand that. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
to be a
iller? No. In fact, most people, most good people out of the
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that I'm tal ing about it doesn't mean that because someone is born and raised in Liberty City is going to become a iller or a criminal. It means the chances of them getting
involved in that ind of a lifestyle are greater than someone, for example, that's born and raised in The Gables or Pinecrest a place li e that. Q A Q Killers come out of both places? Yes. And actually, you are a perfect example of
somebody who grew up in that area who made it out and became, in my opinion, pretty important. Yes?
there li e that. It sounded li e pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and you did it and so other fol s could do it. I have a problem with that being offered about myself. Q No, sir. What I'm saying is just because you grew
up in a particular area, at a particular time when things were bad -A Q Yes, ma'am. -- was not -- did not become a barrier to you
becoming a productive member of society. A I had my dad and I had my mom and they never left
us. They were poor, they wor ed hard, they made us go to school, they disciplined us. We couldn't do what we wanted APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I don't thin
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to. I had both my parents in a very poor environment, but I had both my mom and dad, and that made the difference for me and my brothers.
happened in his? A Q A Q Well -It really calls for a "yes" or "no." No. And what you really testified to today is on the
general community issues in Miami, and on general issues that could happen to someone who's mother as ed his aunt to raise him. Correct? General things that can happen?
that could happen to someone who had been abandoned by their mother.
those persons who had been abandoned by their mother. Q A Q A But nothing really specifically to Grady Nelson?
And very general, too? I thin it's all specific to him. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I thin
factors of
I thin
You
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THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. Redirect? MR. LENAMON: Briefly. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LENAMON:
and the damage based on your evaluation of Mr. Nelson, his history, and the records and the record here including the police report, the defendant's statement, his videotaped confession, does all of that go into how you relate to his damage that you refer to? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. Leading. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. LENAMON: Q When you answered the prosecutor's question about
the damage and who he has become, it is all related to beginning at -THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is brain damage a protective factor? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Is brain damage -- it could be. A person is brain damaged it could -- well, let me restate APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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that. MS. RIFKIN: Judge, outside the scope of cross-examination and assuming facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Restate the question. MR. LENAMON: Sure. BY MR. LENAMON: Q There was some conversation that you had with the
prosecutor on cross-examination about protective factors that distinguish one person from another resulting them becoming a certain way because of those protective factors. Do you remember that? A Q Yes, I do.
both your mother and father and that would be considered a protective factor? A Oh, yes. MS. RIFKIN: Objection, leading. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is brain damage a protective factor or an
aggravating factor that is going to effect someone's -MS. RIFKIN: Objection, lac of foundation, assuming facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Overruled. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I thin
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THE WITNESS: Aggravating. BY MR. LENAMON: Q any -THE COURT: Sustained. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Did you evaluate yourself any neurological tests And your testimony today has nothing to do with
or come to any conclusions in regards to whether Mr. Nelson suffers from brain damage? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q damage? A Q No. So you would agree with me that you opine nothing Are you even in a position to testify as to brain
about that today? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. You may rephrase. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Did anything in your opinion -- did you consider
anything or factor anything in your opinion about the defendant suffering from brain damage in your opinion today? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE WITNESS: One factor came to me -APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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THE COURT: Hold on. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. MS. RIFKIN: Outside the scope of cross-examination, assuming facts not evidence. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Q Go ahead, Doctor. Could you restate the question, please? Were you able to factor in anything about brain
damage into your opinion today? THE COURT: O ay. Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Were you able to identify any protective factors
in Grady's development?
factor in his life. Q Now, what is your opinion about the defendant
being an historian and whether he overreports or underreports? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: He tended to underreport things to
BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is it unusual based on your experience a male who APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
I thin
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has been sexually abused is shameful about that? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, outside the scope of the doctor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Males are very hesitant to admit they have been sexually abused. They will usually deny it, deny it, deny it. Sometimes it will impact their sense of self-worth. So, it's difficult to get men or boys to agree that they were involved in any ind of homosexual behavior. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is it unusual for someone to be impacted at a
young age or early age because of things that they are told, whether they are true or not? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is it unusual for someone to be impacted by a fact
that they were told, whether that fact be true or not? A Q That's not it unusual. And did Grady Nelson tell you that he was told
that his mother was in jail for prostituting herself? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Grounds? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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MS. RIFKIN: Outside the scope of cross-examination, assuming facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. LENAMON: Q Did Grady Nelson tell you that he had been told
that his mother had been arrested for prostituting herself? A Q Yes. And when the prosecutor used that ugly word whore,
did you ever use that word -MS. RIFKIN: Objection. BY MR. LENAMON: Q -- in the 114 pages of the deposition that she
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never use that term. MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON: Q And is there anything that you said or testified
that is indicative that you believe Grady Nelson's mother was a whore? A Q No, sir. Did you ever tell this prosecutor in the two hours APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
14
too in her office with me there. Did you ever use that
the question.
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opinion in any form or fashion? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. LENAMON: Q And other than telling her in your deposition on
Page 40 that you were told by Grady -MS. RIFKIN: Objection. Improper impeachment, improper bolstering. THE COURT: Page what? MR. LENAMON: 40 of the deposition Lines 5 through 23. THE COURT: O ay. Show me the depo because apparently there's not one in the court file. MR. LENAMON: Would you li e me to as the question or wait until you read it? THE COURT: Let me loo at it. MR. LENAMON: May I as the question? THE COURT: As the question. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is there any reference in that 114-page deposition
about the information that you had regarding the mother prostituting herself other than what you told the prosecutor that defendant told you what he was told? APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
that we sat there and tal ed about that, that that was your
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MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Before you answer that, your objection
MS. RIFKIN: My objection is A, it's confusing; B, it's vague; C it's referring to a document that's not in evidence, it's improper bolstering of the witness' testimony with the deposition. THE COURT: Overruled. Read the question and answer. That's the proper way to do it. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Did he tell you -THE COURT: No. Do you remember being as ed this question and giving this answer. BY MR. LENAMON:
giving this answer: "QUESTION: And what did he say -- and did he say what his mother was in jail for? "ANSWER: Yes. "QUESTION: What was that? "ANSWER: Well, he said what he was told. He didn't now at the time.
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"QUESTION: O ay.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q
Do you remember giving those? Yes. Other than that, did you ever refer to
about that specifically? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Was there a reason that you limited your
conclusions about the prostitution issue in the way you did and can you explain that to the jury? A It wouldn't matter whether the mother was a
prostitute or not, that didn't factor into my thin ing at all. What factored into my thin ing was the fact that this was a young child between the ages of eight and four who was in the custody of a parent who apparently had to give them up for some reason. And what was indicated to me by him, was that the mother was drin ing heavily, was in jail several times, and that for this reason, the aunt was as ed to come and get APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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him. Q yours? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON: So the word whore was the prosecutor's term, not
Mr. Nelson's memory? A Q Yes. Did he specifically tell you about two incidents
involving his mother which were very negative? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, leading. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Yes, he did. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Can you recount for the jury what those were? He told me when he was with his mother, that there
was an occasion when she punished him and his brother for something they didn't do, and that had an impact upon him. The other instance was when he was with his aunt and his mother came to visit and tried to discipline him and he resented that. He physically pushed her away from him when he resisted it, and I was interested in his reaction to his mother's attempt to discipline him because it was a good sign to me APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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about the nature of their relationship. So, when he expressed to me that he physically pushed his mother away from him, it said to me that whatever might have happened in his early experience with his mother, he resented it and he had a very, very tough time tying to love his mother.
what they tell you at first tends to change over time. MS. RIFKIN: Objection, calls for speculation as to this defendant. THE COURT: This is why he does what he does. Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Go ahead, Doctor. I find wor ing with the defendants, a lot of times
they will tell one thing and over time it changes to something else. And when you write these things down in your notes and
and redo your notes and then you get cross-examined on these notes, so I tend not to do that. What I tend to do is to spend time tal ing to the person, trying to get to now what is going on, and then if it's important, enough, I'll remember it. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
you find out that they are not true, you've got to go bac
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for that reason. Q How many times have you testified in a death
Q in now? A Q
Two.
Ms. Dorsey, had gone through significant hardship and the defendant had gone through hardship, but Ms. Dorsey turned out o ay.
Is that the same with sibling? Does that happen often with siblings? A Oh, yes. MS. RIFKIN: Objection. Relevance with siblings. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON:
Mr. Nelson's brother Willie? MS. RIFKIN: Outside the scope of cross-examination. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
Do you
she is referring to
I thin
three times.
If I need to go bac
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THE COURT: Come sidebar, please. (Proceedings at bar follow): (Proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party). (Proceedings held in open court.) BY MR. LENAMON: Q Doctor, is it unusual for siblings that are raised
in the same family, that one person may be affected more or get in trouble more than the other? Can you explain that? MS. RIFKIN: Judge, I am objecting to the sibling. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Go ahead. It happens very often. The same household, two
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records from Haw insville, Georgia, during cross by Ms. Rif in. Do you have an opinion as to during that time period of
community in minimalizing events? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
15
ids, one turns out to do very well and the other ends up in
prison. It happens. In social science we try to understand how these circumstances could occur. Q You were as ed a lot of questions about not having
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MR. LENAMON: Judge, this is -THE COURT: You may try to reword it. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Why would it not -- something have been reported
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1960s during this period of time in Haw insville? THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. LENAMON:
whether the mother, by giving him, meaning Grady, to his sister was doing it for a better life, and you started to answer and you didn't complete your answer can you finish your answer? MS. RIFKIN: Objection. THE COURT: What was that? MR. LENAMON: During cross-examination he was as ed a question about what he thought -- whether he thought that by giving Grady Nelson, the mother giving Grady Nelson to the sister, assuming that's true, that she was giving him up for a better life and he started to answer that and he was not allowed to. THE COURT: And you are objecting, and your APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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grounds?
that question and it was not as ed that way and it's irrelevant and speculative. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Q Go ahead. Restate, please.
question. Did Grady Nelson's mother, assuming hypothetically she's the one that gave up Grady Nelson to her sister, assuming that hypothetically, was she giving him a better life by doing that. Can you explain? MS. RIFKIN: Objection, speculation. THE COURT: Totally speculation, but I'll let him speculate. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Go ahead, Doctor. I would speculate that if a mother gave up her
child for a better life, that would mean that the life that the mother was providing for the child was pretty bad for her to go that far. So it may be true, that she gave up her son so that he might have a better life, but my retort would be better than what? What he was facing in Haw insville was a very dire situation, particularly if his mother was being APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
you the
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arrested. MS. RIFKIN: Objection, assuming facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: And I speculated that a child at age four who is in a jail with his mother is at ris . MS. RIFKIN: Objection, assuming facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: And I assumed and I speculated that if this happened to Grady Nelson, there's a good chance that he was emotionally damaged by having been neglected during this period in his life.
further questions. MS. RIFKIN: Can I as one question? THE COURT: One. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. RIFKIN: Q A Q All this is an if, right? If what? All of this, all of what you just said was "if"
was actually removed from the mother for whatever reason. APEX REPORTING GROUP (954) 467-8204
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That's not an "if." That did happen. Q No, Doctor, what you just stated was if he was in
the jail cell and if he was ta en away from the mother, and if there was something dire and if she was drin ing; if, if, if. Everything is based upon "if" being true? A Since you can't really rely on what someone who is
four years old might remember, there has to be some ifs. MS. RIFKIN: Than s. THE COURT: Is the doctor excused?
THE COURT: Than you so much, Doctor. Have a nice afternoon. (Subsequent proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party).
you, Judge.
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I, BRYNN DOCKSTADER, Court Reporter for the Circuit Court of the Eleventh Judicial Circuit of the State of Florida, in and for Dade County, DO HEREBY CERTIFY, that I was authorized to, and did, report in shorthand the proceedings and evidence in the above-styled cause, as stated in the caption hereto, and that the foregoing pages constitute a true, accurate and correct computerized transcription of my report of said proceedings and evidence. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand in the City of Miami, Dade County, Florida, this 12th day of December, 2010.