Professional Documents
Culture Documents
EXHIBIT 187
___________________________________________________
MOZILO,ANGELOVol.1
June21,2011
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VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ANGELO MOZILO 18
TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 2011, 8:38 A.M.
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REPORTED BY: PHILIP D. NORRIS
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C.S.R. No. 4980
Page 3
Videotaped deposition of Angelo Mozilo, the
witness, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff,
commencing at 8:38 a m., on Tuesday, June 21, 2011,
at 2 Dole Drive, Westlake Village, California,
before Philip D. Norris, C.S.R. No. 4980.
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
FOR PLAINTIFF:
QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
BY: PHILIPPE SELENDY, ESQ.
ALICIA COBB, ESQ.
51 Madison Avenue
22nd Floor
New York, New York 10010
(212) 849-7441
- AND QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
BY: DANIELLE L. GILLMORE, ESQ.
865 South Figueroa Street
10th Floor
Los Angeles, California 90017
(213) 443-3206
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MBIA INSURANCE CORPORATION, )
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a New York corporation,
)
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Plaintiff, ) Case No.
6
vs.
) BC417572
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BANK OF AMERICA CORPORATION, )
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a Delaware corporation, et al., )
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Defendants. )
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)
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VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ANGELO MOZILO 17
TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 2011, 8:38 A.M.
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REPORTED BY: PHILIP D. NORRIS
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C.S.R. No. 4980
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Page 4
APPEARANCES:
FOR COUNTRYWIDE DEFENDANTS:
GOODWIN PROCTER
BY: SARAH HEATON CONCANNON, ESQ.
Exchange Place
Boston, Massachusetts 02109
(617) 570-1000
FOR ANGELO MOZILO:
IRELL & MANELLA LLP
BY: DAVID SIEGEL, ESQ.
ALLISON L. LIBEU, ESQ.
1800 Avenue of the Stars
Suite 900
Los Angeles, California 90067-4276
(310) 277-1010
FOR DAVID SAMBOL:
ORRICK, HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE, LLP
BY: MICHAEL C. TU ESQ.
777 South Figueroa Street
Suite 3200
Los Angeles, California 90017-5855
(213) 612-2433
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Merrill Corporation - New York
1-800-325-3376
www.merrillcorp.com/law
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APPEARANCES:
FOR ERIC SIERACKI:
DLA PIPER, LLP (US)
BY: NICOLAS MORGAN, ESQ.
1999 Avenue of the Stars
Suite 400
Los Angeles, California 90067
(310) 595-3020
FOR THE UNDERWRITER DEFENDANTS:
GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER LLP
BY: J. CHRISTOPHER JENNINGS, ESQ.
333 South Grand Avenue
Los Angeles, California 90071-3197
(213) 229-7836
FOR THE DEFENDANT STANFORD KURLAND:
CALDWELL, LESLIE & PROCTOR
BY: ERIC S. PETTIT, ESQ.
1000 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 600
Los Angeles, California 90017
(213) 629-9040
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INDEX
WITNESS
EXAMINATION
ANGELO MOZILO (By Mr. Selendy)
EXHIBITS
NO.
PAGE DESCRIPTION
Exhibit 1395 43 Final Judgment as to Defendant
Angelo Mozilo, three pages
Exhibit 1396 44 Consent o Angelo Mozilo,
three pages
Exhibit 1397 48 Complaint for Violations of
the Federal Securities Laws,
29 pages
Exhibit 1398 92 E-mails, Bates number CWMBIA
001100155, with attachments
Exhibit 1399 106 Event Transcript, 1/27/04,
13 pages
Exhibit 1400 114 E-mail from Dave Sambol,
2/22/04, Bates number CWMBIA
0010047224
Exhibit 1401 134 E-mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
001597091 to 942
Exhibit 1402 141 E-mail from Angelo Mozilo,
9/1/04, Bates number CWMBIAG0000096887
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APPEARANCES:
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FOR RON KRIPALANI AND JENNIFER SANDEFUR: 3
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PAUL HASTING JANOFSKY & WALKER
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BY: JOSHUA HAMILTON, ESQ.
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515 South Flower Street
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25th Floor
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Los Angeles, California 90071-2228
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(213) 683-6186
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FOR BANK OF AMERICA:
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O'MELVENY & MYERS LLP
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BY: MATTHEW W. CLOSE, ESQ.
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400 South Hope Street
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Los Angeles, California 90071-2899
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(213) 430-6000
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ALSO APPEARING:
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JEMAL JUDKINS, VIDEOGRAPHER
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MICHELE KENAUSIS
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JONATHAN C. HARRIS, ESQ.
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PAGE
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Page 8
INDEX
EXHIBITS
NO.
PAGE DESCRIPTION
Exhibit 1403 153 E-mails, Bates number CWMBIA
15776882, with attachment
Exhibit 1404 164 E-mail from Richard Soto,
12/2/04, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0012527229 to 241
Exhibit 1405 171 E-mail from Angelo Mozilo,
9/17/05, Bates number CWMBIAG0000110171
Exhibit 1406 176 E-Mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0012263394 to 402
Exhibit 1407 197 E-mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0015971512 to 513
Exhibit 1408 204 E-mail from Jennifer Pitcock,
12/0/06, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0009554935 to 946
Exhibit 1409 210 Form 10-K, 190 pages
Exhibit 1410 214 E-mail from Angelo Mozilo,
12/1/06, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0012048907 to 909
Exhibit 1411 216 E-mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0011468069 to 070
///
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
Merrill Corporation - New York
1-800-325-3376
www.merrillcorp.com/law
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INDEX
EXHIBITS
NO.
PAGE DESCRIPTION
Exhibit 1412 241 E-mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0009523759 to 761
Exhibit 1413 244 E-mail from Marc Moss, 7/28/06,
Bates numbers CWMBIA 0011524659
to 667
Exhibit 1414 244 E-mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0011006407 to 410
Exhibit 1415 250 "Key Observations and Lessons
Learned From the Crisis," Bates
numbers CWMBIA-G0000092601
to 610
Exhibit 1416 277 Event Transcript, 4/21/04,
25 pages
Exhibit 1417 302 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo before the SEC,
11/9/07, 175 pages
Exhibit 1418 303 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo before the SEC,
8/20/08, 133 pages
Exhibit 1419 304 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo before the SEC,
8/21/08, 238 pages
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INDEX
EXHIBITS
NO.
PAGE DESCRIPTION
Exhibit 1425 307 FCIC Staff Interview with
Angelo Mozilo, 2/17/01,
35 pages
Exhibit 1426 308 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo in Syncora v
Countrywide Home Loans, et al.,
2/25/11, Bates numbers
CWMBIA-G000109795 to 874
Exhibit 1427 322 E-mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0014070251 to 254
Exhibit 1428 330 E-mail from Angelo Mozilo,
4/21/05, Bates numbers
CWMBIA-G0000110172 to 173
Exhibit 1429 334 E-mail from Angelo Mozilo,
2/9/05, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0012568762 to 767
Exhibit 1430 339 E-mail from Angelo Mozilo,
7/27/05, Bates number CWMBIA
0012525795 to 796
Exhibit 1431 340 E-mails, Bates numbers CWMBIA
0015980647 to 650
///
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INDEX
EXHIBITS
NO.
PAGE DESCRIPTION
Exhibit 1420 304 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo before the SEC,
10/2/08, 235 pages
Exhibit 1421 305 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo before the SEC,
10/3/08, 93 pages
Exhibit 1422 306 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo in In Re
Countrywide Financial
Corporation Securities
Litigation, 1/26/10, Volume I
Exhibit 1423 306 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo in In Re
Countrywide Financial
Corporation Securities
Litigation, 1/27/10, Volume II
Exhibit 1424 307 Transcript of the testimony of
Angelo Mozilo in In Re
Countrywide Financial
Corporation Securities
Litigation, 1/28/10, Volume III
///
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INDEX
EXHIBITS
NO.
PAGE DESCRIPTION
Exhibit 1432 346 E-mail from Aratha Johnson,
Bates numbers CWMBIA0011533794
to 799
(Exhibits 107, 949, 1056, 1140, 1142, 1168,
1172, 1325, 1343, 1344, 1351 and 1356, previously
marked exhibits, are included in this transcript for
reference.)
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Merrill Corporation - New York
1-800-325-3376
www.merrillcorp.com/law
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1-800-325-3376
www.merrillcorp.com/law
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A. No.
Q. Okay. How long were you CEO of
Countrywide?
A. I co-founded the company in 1968. I became
CEO -- I don't recall the year, frankly.
Q. Was it 1998?
A. If you know the year, then fine. I don't
know.
Q. What was the last year that you were CEO of
Countrywide?
A. 2008.
Q. Okay. So approximately 10 years?
A. If that's what it works out to be. I don't
know the date.
Q. Are you familiar with President Truman's
motto that "the buck stops here"?
A. I've heard of it, yes.
Q. Okay. Did you live by that standard when
you were CEO of Countrywide?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I -- I operated the company
to the best of my ability and to make sure that I
maintained the integrity of the company and make
sure that everyone operated in a proper and trustful
and honest manner.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Were you ultimately responsible for the
acts of Countrywide?
MR. SIEGEL: Calls for legal conclusion.
Object to the form of the question.
THE WITNESS: The company was 60,000
people, requires the participation of many
executives to make sure that the company operates
properly every day. There is no way that a CEO can
know intimately what's happening on three continents
with 66,000 employees.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. As CEO of Countrywide, were you ultimately
responsible for the acts of the corporation?
MR. SIEGEL: Asked and answered, calls for
a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I would term it this way:
That I -- I managed the company in the best way I
knew -- knew how, and with the documents that I
signed, I believed to be true and correct. When you
talk about "ultimately responsible," it's a very
broad term. And as I said, I managed the company
the best way I knew how to do it.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Are you uncomfortable saying that you were
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Merrill Corporation - New York
1-800-325-3376
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. At this time do you think it's fair to say
that you were ultimately responsible for the overall
performance of the company?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's argumentative.
It's been asked and answered. It calls for a legal
conclusion.
THE WITNESS: Let me -- let me answer it
this way: I had, as I said, many executives at the
company that I relied upon to assure that they were
carrying out the direction that I provided. And I
don't care how you term it. I took responsibility
by signing the 10-Qs, the 10-Ks. That's it.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you take steps to ensure that you had
knowledge of and participation in important
decisions on behalf of the company?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: As best I could. As best you
could when you had literally millions of
transactions per year, thousands of transactions per
day, as best as humanly possible. I worked as hard
as any human being could work to make sure that this
company was -- was a profitable and best-of-class
company, and it was.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you take steps to ensure that your
senior managers reported important issues and events
to you?
A. As best I can. I relied on them reporting
them to me.
Q. Did they -- did you rely upon a certain
number of senior managers more than others?
A. I did. The higher ranked employees, such
as Stan Kurland and Dave Sambol and Eric Sieracki
and Carlos Garcia, who ran the bank, yes, I relied
more heavily upon them because they were the ones I
was in contact with.
Q. Would you include John McMurray in that
group?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you include anyone else in that
group?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: Kevin Bartlett, Jennifer
Sandefur, our chief economist. I don't recall his
name at the moment. There were certain people that
I interacted with -- it wasn't on a daily basis -if I was in -- in the office.
///
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
Merrill Corporation - New York
1-800-325-3376
www.merrillcorp.com/law
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you know what product types Countrywide
offered for the period here of 2004 through 2008?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague, and it's
compound.
THE WITNESS: I mean, the products -product lines were changing continuously. Did I
know the instant that they were being incorporated
into Countrywide's product line? In some cases, I
might have; in some cases, I might not have.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Were there particular instances where you
required of your senior managers that they seek your
approval before Countrywide offered a new product
type?
A. Not all the time. Again, there was a
protocol, an exhaustive protocol, in the development
of products. There was a whole team that did that,
a product development team that had to go through
our lawyers, our accountants, our underwriters. And
in some cases it was perfunctory, and in some cases
where we went into a totally different product they
may have come to me.
Q. Are you able to describe generally the
circumstances under which the introduction of a new
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mind.
Q. Okay. As the former CEO of a company built
on mortgage origination, you had a general
understanding of how your company actually
originated those mortgages; correct?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Okay. And are you aware that Countrywide
published guidelines as to how it originated loans?
A. Published guidelines as to how we
originated loans? We published guidelines
internally to make sure that our people adhered to
the guidelines.
Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that a
responsible lender adopts prudent underwriting
guidelines and adheres to them?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. How closely do prudent underwriters
adhere to guidelines?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague, compound.
THE WITNESS: And ridiculous.
I mean, you have guidelines. Those -exactly what they mean. They're not the Ten
Commandments, they're guidelines. And those
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1-800-325-3376
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Would you agree with me that Countrywide
had to adhere to the representations and warranties
it made with respect to the loans it included in the
Countrywide RMBS?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's argumentative, and
it's vague as to its reference to Countrywide and
various entities.
THE WITNESS: The company had written reps
and warranties and -- and we respected those reps
and warranties.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. As the CEO of Countrywide, did you think it
was acceptable for Countrywide to deviate from the
representations and warranties in its RMBS?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's argumentative as
framed, and vague as to entities.
THE WITNESS: I'm not even aware of what
you're talking about.
MR. SELENDY: Okay.
Q. So are you aware that MBIA wrote multiple
billions of dollars of financial guarantee insurance
on RMBS created by Countrywide?
A. I only know that as a result of this
deposition.
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Merrill Corporation - New York
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. What was the purpose of the representations
and warranties, to your understanding?
MR. SIEGEL: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: My understanding was part of
the process, part of the requirements.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you know why it was part of the
requirements?
A. You'd have to -- you'd have to ask that of
MBIA.
Q. Okay. You understood it was a precondition
for MBIA to enter into the transaction that there be
such representations and warranties?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Question calls for
speculation, and it's vague.
THE WITNESS: Again, let me restate. I
had -- I have no -- I had no idea of MBIA's -MBIA's participation with Countrywide. None. So I
don't know anything about MBIA or what their
expectations were.
MR. SELENDY: Okay.
THE WITNESS: I do know that MBIA is
supposed to be -- is a public company responsible to
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you understand how he exercised that
responsibility?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did he report to you from time to
time as to his conclusions with respect to whether
Countrywide's underwriting was within its
guidelines?
A. Yeah, I had several meetings with John
about, you know, a variety of issues. I don't
recall the issues. Many years have gone by now.
But I had a good relationship with him, and I
considered him a first-class individual.
Q. You would include him as the group within
the best-in-class group of employees that you
referred to earlier?
A. I would.
Q. Was there any occasion on which you had a
report from Mr. McMurray that you thought was not
based strictly on fact?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague and
overbroad.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what that
question is about.
MR. SELENDY: Okay.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. In fact, sir, long before the end of the
housing bubble Countrywide expected that its
borrowers would default in massive numbers; isn't
that correct?
A. Incorrect.
Q. Your testimony is that's incorrect?
A. That's incorrect. Incorrect.
Q. Do you understand why the SEC, the Federal
Securities and Exchange Commission, required you to
pay $67.5 million to settle claims that you violated
personally the Federal Securities Acts?
MR. SIEGEL: Well, first, misstates the
facts, deliberately so, perhaps. Misstates the -MR. SELENDY: No speaking objections.
MR. SIEGEL: Well, in our jurisdiction I'm
supposed to give you an opportunity to fix
objectionable questions. If you waive that, I'll
just say object as to form and argumentative.
Object as to form and argumentative.
Do you waive that opportunity to -- that I
point out -MR. SELENDY: I would like to -MR. SIEGEL: What's your preference?
MR. SELENDY: You can give a one-word
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against you?
MR. SIEGEL: I'm going to object. Document
is not reasonably calculated to lead to the
discovery of material or relevant information.
THE WITNESS: I've never seen it before.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You've never seen it?
A. No.
MR. SELENDY: Let's have the reporter mark
as Exhibit 1396 the Consent of Angelo Mozilo in the
same proceeding.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1396 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. I take it you've seen this document before,
sir.
MR. SIEGEL: Take your time.
I'll object that the document -- questions
relating to a settlement that doesn't -- that on its
face says it's inadmissible for any purposes is
irrelevant and immaterial line of questioning,
argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You've seen this document before; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. This is the consent to the entry of the
Final Judgment which I had marked as Exhibit 1395;
correct?
MR. SIEGEL: Same objections. Irrelevant,
not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery
of -THE WITNESS: Mine shows 1396.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. This consent marked as Exhibit 1396 is a
consent to the entry of the Final Judgment, which is
marked 1395; correct?
MR. SIEGEL: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: It is what it is.
MR. SELENDY: Okay.
Q. In the second paragraph, it states:
"Mozilo herby consents as part of a knowing
and voluntarily settlement of this action to
the entry of the Final Judgment in the form
attached hereto (the Final Judgment)."
And you signed this consent; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And the Final Judgment was attached to the
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A. I do.
Q. You agreed that you would not again serve
as an officer or director of any public company;
correct?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's irrelevant,
argumentative and truly harassing. Also, relevance
of admissibility.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Today you are not the officer or director
of any public company; correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. SELENDY: Let's mark as Exhibit 1397
the complaint filed by the SEC against Angelo
Mozilo, David Sambol and Eric Sieracki.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1397 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Going to ask you questions about particular
allegations in this complaint. You're free to
review as much of it as you feel is necessary. My
first question will be on paragraph 4 of the
complaint.
A. I'm not going to read the whole complaint
because it takes me seven hours to do that.
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subprime loan?
A. Well, that was really defined by the
regulators. It was 660 or above.
Q. So below 660 would be subprime?
A. Well, not by my standards, but that was the
regulatory standards.
Q. Well, what were your standards?
A. It's not that simple. A loan could be 640,
but the borrower has 50 percent down, so even though
his credit is not up to standard, he's got a
substantial amount of equity. That's a compensating
issue. So that's just a -- it's a guide. But
they -- they -- so I don't -First of all, our average was over 700. So
again, I don't know where this -- this comes from,
from the SEC. Were there loans that were 640 and
630? But I would not qualify them as subprime
necessarily because I'd have to look at the entire
loan itself. There may have been an individual
circumstance that the individual went through; had
great credit up until a divorce, great credit up
until they got sick, and now they're back -- their
life is coming back together again. That would be a
prime loan for me.
Q. If you'll turn to page 9, paragraph 21 of
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2007.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Without regard to the SEC's complaint, is
it correct that you, in fact, gave warnings to
Sambol and Sieracki in the period from 2005 through
2007 about the increased risk that Countrywide was
assuming?
A. I can't comment on that because I don't
know what the SEC has in mind.
Q. Without regard to the SEC complaint, is it
correct that you gave warnings to Sambol and
Sieracki about increased risk that Countrywide was
assuming during the period from 2005 to 2007?
MR. TU: Objection. Vague and ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if I -- specific
as to this. I'm telling you that I continuously
warned my people to be concerned about risk and was
involved in making sure I communicated that concern
to everyone in the company. And my e-mails, my
memos, you can see by examination, cascaded down
throughout the company to the lawyers in the
company, to the underwriters in the company. I was
always concerned about risk. It was my primary
concern because we were the lender, and we had a
contingent liability in every loan we made.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you track it every month?
A. No.
Q. Did you track it every quarter?
A. I believe that I wouldn't track it at all
unless people came to me and told me what our market
share was.
Q. Nonetheless, it was a stated goal of yours
as of the end of 2003 to reach a 30 percent market
share by 2008; correct?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. If you would turn to page 11.
A. I said before that was our goal, but I said
publicly we would not seek that goal if it meant
that we had to violate or mitigate our standards.
And as you can see, as far as we got was 15.7
percent. Got halfway there.
Q. If you would turn to page 11, paragraph 25,
the SEC states that, quote:
"Countrywide's matching strategy, also known
as the supermarket strategy, was a key driver
of the company's aggressive expansion of
underwriting guidelines."
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Okay. At what point would a FICO score be
too low to be characterized as prime?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: 400.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. If you'll turn to page 23 -- sorry, page
10, in paragraph 23 the document states, in the
second sentence:
"As of December 31, 2003, based on its own
internal estimates, Countrywide had an 11.4
share of the United States mortgage market. By
September 30th, 2006 it had a 15.7 percent
share of the market."
Do those numbers appear accurate to you?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Did you track the market share regularly
while you were CEO?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: No. I don't know what you
mean by "regularly." Every day? Every week? Every
month? Every year? You know, what do you mean by
"regularly"?
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Can you explain your testimony, sir, as to
how you can have as a compensating factor a value
which was already assessed as part of the attempt to
determine whether there was conformity with
guidelines?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
Mischaracterizes prior testimony.
THE WITNESS: It's an -- I can't believe
the -- look, I think I've been pretty clear. First
of all, compensating factors are considered as part
of the underwriting process. It's not after the
underwriting process; it's part of the process.
MR. SELENDY: I'm distinguishing guidelines
from compensating factors, if there is a
distinction. Perhaps there isn't for you.
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. There is none for me
because -- because the guidelines -- you know, I
don't recall exactly what the guidelines say, but I
feel relatively confident that somewhere along the
line in -- the guidelines said there is -- there
are -- there could be compensating factors that
could cause you to approve this loan. Certainly, if
it was not in writing, it was understood.
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THE WITNESS: I have no idea what -First of all, let me say this: You're
working from a document not produced by Countrywide.
MR. SELENDY: That's correct, sir, it's a
complaint against you personally.
THE WITNESS: That's correct. And
doesn't -- and does not, in my opinion, reflect the
facts. Okay? And I don't know if they're correct
because one of these things says that -- that the
Countrywide underwriting manuals were amended and
explicitly prohibit this practice in mid-2007. But
I -- I don't think -- my recollection, I don't think
that's true. Okay? And the reason being this: If
you understand the whole context of this,
Countrywide -- we had -- we created a
underwriting -- automated underwriting system -- It
was the first one created in the United States -called CLUES, an acronym for Countrywide Loan
Underwriting Exception System, I believe.
That system did one of two things. It
approved the loan immediately when put through the
system, or it referred the loan to a manual
underwriter. Because the variables run in the
millions on these loans, there's no way that you can
program a system to take all those variables into
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Well, let me see if I can try and make it
clearer. If you'll turn to page 13 of the
complaint, and paragraph 30, starting with the
second sentence, it states:
"According to Countrywide's official
underwriting guidelines, exceptions were only
proper where compensating factors were
identified which offset the risks caused by the
loan being outside of guidelines. In practice,
however, Countrywide used as compensating
factors variables such as FICO and loan to
value, which had already been assessed by CLUES
in issuing a refer finding. Countrywide's
underwriting manuals were amended to explicitly
prohibit this practice in mid-2007, so forth."
Do you see that?
A. I see it.
Q. Okay. Does that help at all for you to
distinguish between compensating factors being
values which are assessed as part of the initial
attempt to determine whether loans conform with
guidelines or not?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. What were the reasons for your approval of
loans outside of guidelines?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's compound, vague and
irrelevant, not reasonably calculated to lead to the
discovery of relevant evidence.
THE WITNESS: The same reason that I've
explained over and over again, that the down
payment, co-signing, other factors, compensating
factors, made a loan a good loan, in my opinion.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You had personal involvement in ensuring
that loans were given to public officials on
favorable terms; isn't that right?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's argumentative.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Vague and irrelevant.
I don't think you insured any of those.
THE WITNESS: Not only that, but I think
that there is no loan that I made to anyone where,
one, they couldn't get that loan or a better loan
someplace else with thousands of competitors out
there.
And secondly, one that I didn't believe was
a good loan for Countrywide.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Can I have an answer to the question?
A. That's the answer to your question.
Q. My question was whether you had personal
involvement in ensuring that loans were given to
certain public officials on favorable terms?
MR. SIEGEL: The question's vague,
argumentative.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Is the answer "yes"?
MR. SIEGEL: The question's vague,
argumentative, misstates the testimony, and it's
irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: I recall making some loans
to -- actually, I didn't make any loans to anybody.
I referred loans over to the underwriters who
underwrote those loans, and from time to time I'd be
called for whether or not the exception was
acceptable or not acceptable. Sometimes they were
acceptable, sometimes they weren't.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you try to achieve political objectives
in approving loans outside of guidelines?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's irrelevant,
argumentative and asked and answered.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. First document is dated December 17th,
2004. In the subject line it states "Re: FOA
)." And you state in
your e-mail:
"In case you didn't receive my first
message, you are to approve and close this
loan. Next time you have a request of this
nature from a former senior executive of
Countrywide you should contact me directly."
Do you see that, sir?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And this is an example of a Friend of
Angelo Loan; correct?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Argumentative.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Correct?
A. This is an example that you placed in this
category of Friend of Angelo. As I said, I was a -I was the originator of tens of thousands of loans
since 1968.
Q. Well, you say I placed it in the category,
but that's actually in the subject line of the
internal Countrywide e-mail; correct?
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you see that?
A. If that's what it says. I mean, I'm trying
to digest this entire document. But if that's what
it says, it says that.
Q. Right.
And so did you have any basis, from an
underwriting perspective, in determining that this
was, in fact, a good loan for Countrywide to
originate, or was it simply that this was somebody
that you knew?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's argumentative.
MS. CONCANNON: Assumes facts not in
evidence, lacks foundation.
MR. SIEGEL: Irrelevant.
MS. CONCANNON: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Is this a loan that MBIA
insured?
MR. SELENDY: I'm not here to answer your
questions, sir.
THE WITNESS: Well -MR. SELENDY: I'd like an answer to mine.
THE WITNESS: Look, there could be -MR. SIEGEL: Why don't you -- why don't you
read the whole document. You'll see the answer.
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24 (Pages 93 to 96)
Merrill Corporation - New York
1-800-325-3376
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Merrill Corporation - New York
1-800-325-3376
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. In fact, you saw evidence that the
incidents of borrower fraud was increasing
dramatically in this period from 2004 through 2007;
correct?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's compound.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
Mischaracterizes testimony.
THE WITNESS: Are those your words?
"Dramatically," is that your word?
MR. SELENDY: That's a question to you,
sir.
THE WITNESS: No, is that your word,
"dramatically"?
MR. SELENDY: That is the word in my
question.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if it was
increasing dramatically. There was no question
that -- that there was more evidence of fraud as the
bubble was continuing to grow, and I made that -that assertion on my part that -- I made that
public, that it was a concern. Fraud -- appeared to
be increasing fraud and I was concerned.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. By the way, sir, do you understand that
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first page.
MR. SIEGEL: Here.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Where is it? Where
are you quoting from?
MR. SELENDY: At the bottom.
Q. Do you see that you say: As I mentioned
earlier, we have very aggressive market share
goals"? Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's fair as of the beginning of
2004, you did have very aggressive market share
goals; correct?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Well, you wouldn't have said it, would you,
if it wasn't true?
A. What?
MS. CONCANNON: Sorry?
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You wouldn't have made the statement if it
wasn't true, would you?
A. It speaks for itself. I don't recall what
our market share goals were or whether they were
aggressive or not aggressive. I'm just going based
on what the document says.
Q. Let me see if I can help you out.
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On the next page, in the middle, second -second column, you have a paragraph that says:
"Our goal is market dominance and we're
talking 30 percent origination market share by
2008."
Do you see that?
A. Where? Where are you on this page?
Q. Okay. It's in the middle of the page,
second column, starting with "our goal."
A. Okay.
Q. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. You do say that your goal is market
dominance and you're talking 30 percent origination
market share?
A. Right.
MR. SIEGEL: Document speaks for itself.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. And that -- that was a very aggressive
market share goal for you at the time; right?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: It was -- it was a -- I use
the term "aggressive" to start with, and that's the
term I'll stay with, is "aggressive."
MR. SELENDY: Yes.
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correct?
A. Yes.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Is it fair to say that domination of the
mortgage lending space was one of the foremost goals
that you had starting with this period beginning of
2004?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague,
argumentative.
THE WITNESS: No. The operative words here
are "those who can qualify."
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. I didn't hear what you said, sir.
A. Those who can qualify. I think that's in
the word here.
Q. Okay. But is it fair to say that one of
your foremost goals was domination of the mortgage
space as of the beginning of 2004?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague,
argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Again, putting it in
perspective, that was one of our goals. Primary
goal was to make sure that we were making loans that
people can repay. Secondary goal was to increase
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A. Uh-huh.
Q. Do you have any recollection of what you
meant by that?
A. No. That's -- that was the theme of
Countrywide from its inception. That's why the name
is Countrywide.
Q. Domination?
A. It's one of the reasons.
Q. Okay. And you state:
"In order for us to make certain that we not
only maintain momentum but gain dominance over
Wells and WAMU, we have to accelerate the
growth of our sales force in all of our
channels and particularly in CMD."
Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. Why did you select Wells and WAMU as
benchmarks?
A. Because they were second and third.
Q. Okay. And what was the reason why you said
it's particularly important to accelerate growth in
CMD?
MR. TU: Objection. Misstates the
document.
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. That is what you say; right?
A. I say "particularly in CMD." This is 2004,
seven years ago. I don't -- I don't recall.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you have any recollection as to the
strategic importance of CMD with respect to your
agenda of achieving dominance?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: It was one of three channels
that we had, and I don't know why I put particular
emphasis on CMD.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Is it fair to say that a key objective in
increasing market share was to accelerate the growth
of the sales force?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That's what it says here,
yes.
MR. SELENDY: Okay. Let's mark as Exhibit
1401 -- I'm sorry, this is -- I'm going to show you
a document that's been previously marked as 1142.
It's another transcript of a conference call. And
my first question is:
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statement.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Countrywide by nature was an aggressive
company; right?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: We were by nature a
responsible company that had aggressive goals.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. If you'll turn to the next page, the third
full paragraph begins:
"Risk management is also a major strategic
initiative."
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Kurland states:
"Countrywide is committed to a highly
effective enterprise-wide risk management, and
today's program features Nick Krsnich, our
chief investment officer, and John McMurray,
our chief credit officer, who will cover this
topic in more detail."
Do you see that?
A. I do.
MR. PETTIT: Objection.
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Was there an effort made, at the time you
adopted the goal of 30 percent market share and
expansion in sales force, was there an effort made
to increase the size of the credit risk organization
under Mr. McMurray's leadership?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I think that Mr. Kurland
covered that in the previous statement, but I don't
know if I can find it again. The -- in order to
expand to the volumes that we had projected, if we
were successful, all of our operations and our
structure had to be strengthened, and I -- I can
only assume that that was true of the credit risk
area.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you say you can only assume that because
you don't have any recollection of that with respect
to the credit risk area?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: Based upon the culture of
Countrywide and how we operated, that technology,
credit risk, all the risk areas of the company
received enormous attention from the management
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the document.
THE WITNESS: I'm not certain.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You are aware that Countrywide rolled out
expanded products and loan types as of 2005 and
continuing forward through 2007?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm aware of that, but it
doesn't mean that those people wouldn't have
qualified for the -- for the other loans.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. On the next page, in the middle of the
page, there's a paragraph beginning "and our market
share growth strategies." That's page 359.
A. Yeah.
Q. In that paragraph, the last sentence
states:
"It is Countrywide's desire and intent to
not only participate, but to be a leader in
every market, every channel and every segment
of the mortgage market, whether those segments
of the market are defined by geography,
consumer demographic profiles or product
preference."
Do you see that?
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A. Yes.
Q. Was that a true statement as of the time
Mr. Sambol made it?
A. I believe it to be true.
Q. Okay. And do you know roughly how much
Countrywide in fact grew its sales force in the
period from 2004 to 2007?
A. No.
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you more than double the size of the
sales force?
A. I don't know.
Q. Turn to the next page, page 360. Top of
the page Mr. Sambol states:
"The message that we conveyed to the market
and to our recruits is account and sales" -I think it's supposed to be "our recruit
account and salespeople."
-- "can grow their business and originate
more volume if they come to Countrywide, and
that's the primary explanation for historical
success and our future success relative to
sales force growth."
Do you see that?
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A. Yes.
Q. Was it the case that Countrywide was trying
to induce people to come and be salespeople at
Countrywide in part on the basis that they could
sell more product at Countrywide relative to
their -- relative to your competitors?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. TU: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I wasn't involved in
recruiting of the sales force.
MR. SELENDY: Okay.
Q. Do you know whether you were encouraging
your management team to give incentives to the sales
force to come to Countrywide and sell more product?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
MR. TU: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know what -what incentives were provided.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Was it one of your objectives to try and
give incentives to the sales force to maximize
sales?
A. To my knowledge, we were trying to expand
our sales force.
Q. And were you trying to give incentives to
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you recall any discussions about the
risks to Countrywide Securities Corporation if it
did not make truthful representations and
warranties?
MS. CONCANNON: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't.
MR. SELENDY: Let's turn ahead to the page
ending in 5396. This reflects testimony from you.
MR. SIEGEL: Well -MR. SELENDY: Excuse me. This reflects
statements from you at that analyst conference.
Q. In the third paragraph down, the paragraph
begins "I'm going to"; do you see that?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And you say -- you say:
"It's a question of dominance. You have
heard this before, we have no intention to
structure the company to be in second place or
third place. It's not what we are about. It's
never what we are about from our inception back
30 years. We could dominate our space,
dominate the space."
Do you see that?
A. Yes.
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A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Does this reflect a message that you
sent to all Countrywide personnel on June 6, 2006?
A. Yes.
Q. And in your message you refer to the
effects from the rise in interest rates on the
housing market; right?
A. Correct.
Q. You say:
"As interest rates have risen, the housing
market, as expected, has been negatively
impacted."
Right?
A. Correct.
Q. And, in fact, Countrywide did expect that
the housing market would be negatively impacted as
interest rates rose; correct?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That's what it says. I don't
want to go over those words again.
Is that exactly what it says?
MR. SIEGEL: Document speaks for itself.
MR. SELENDY: I'm asking the -- as a
question:
Q. Countrywide did, in fact, expect that the
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Your simple message was to do everything
possible to gain productivity and market share;
correct?
MR. SIEGEL: Misstates the document.
THE WITNESS: Let me -- let me -- I'm going
to read this to you:
"As competitors merge we're able to attract
new talent into the company, as well as a new
and broader base of customers. My message
relative to this period of significant change
is simple: Be aggressive during the period of
competitive advantage to gain market share."
That is to get these people, to get this
talent. Because Countrywide was nothing more than
very talented people. Our advantage over our
competition was not product or price, was quality of
people. That's my message here.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. And, sir, at the same time that you're
saying that each and every one of you should put
forth as much effort as possible to increase both
your production and productivity, you weren't making
any statement about prudence in lending risks, are
you?
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. So do you find it just perplexing that
Mr. Ingerslev would say you gave license to
production for all they're pushing for?
MR. SIEGEL: Well, don't speculate.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea who he is.
Never met the man.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you know who Mr. McMurray is?
A. I do.
Q. Do you recall discussions you'd had with
Mr. McMurray at about this point in time about the
importance of prudence and lending risks?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And you clearly didn't mention
anything about it in your message to all personnel;
right?
MR. SIEGEL: Objection. Document speaks
for itself.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Asked and
answered.
MR. SIEGEL: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I think review of the
documentation sent to my people give an indication
that they understood the importance of prudent
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underwriting.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. There's no such message in this document,
though; right?
MR. SIEGEL: Document speaks for itself.
It's argumentative, asked and answered.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. And if I missed it, just tell me where.
A. I think it's a given with my people.
MR. SELENDY: Let me show you a document
that -- is this our case? Okay. Let's mark as
Exhibit 1402 CWMBIA-G96887.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1402 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Just let me know when you're ready.
A. Okay.
Q. Okay. By September of 2004, you saw a
clear deterioration in the quality of loans
originated both at Countrywide and elsewhere;
correct?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That's my statement.
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. And you're referring to the e-mail that you
sent on September 1st, 2004 to Stan Kurland, among
others?
A. Correct.
Q. And you state:
"In addition, from my point of view, the
trend is getting worse as the competition for
subprime Alt-A and nonconforming in general
continues to accelerate."
You see that?
A. I do.
Q. And that was what you believed to be true
at the time; correct?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague,
overbroad.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. In the second paragraph you say, in the
second sentence:
"The type of loans currently being
originated, combined with the unprecedented
stretching of all aspects of credit standards,
could cause a bump in the road that could bring
with it catastrophic consequences."
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loans?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague and
misunderstands the prior testimony.
THE WITNESS: The nature of a mortgage
banker is to hold nothing on its balance sheet,
nothing. Because we have no source of funding to
hold assets long term. We only have short-term
financing. The only assets we could hold is in the
bank. So we held assets at -- at Countrywide
funding level, Countrywide Home Loans level, just
because it was the best of the alternatives that we
had for a period of time, and as soon as we could
offload it, we could. We had no long-term funding
sources.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Okay. My question was specifically as to
Countrywide Bank, which was able to hold assets long
term; correct?
A. We couldn't hold these assets. We're not
permitted to hold these assets.
Q. Right. Let me step back a little bit.
Was it generally the case, as to the types
of assets that Countrywide Bank was permitted to
hold, that you made a selection and retained only
the higher quality assets by contrast to what you
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Go ahead.
A. There's several issues here. One, again,
is that the management of these investors and
insurers had a responsibility to look at what they
were insuring or buying, examine it. That's their
responsibility, that's the responsibility themselves
as a company and to their shareholders.
Secondly, I had regulatory issues at the
bank that I didn't have at the mortgage company. I
had to be very concerned about what was going into
the bank because I didn't want to violate any of the
regulations or any of the mandates that they imposed
upon the bank. So I had to look at both of them
differently.
Q. MBIA, like other insurers, looks at what
Countrywide represents to be true, doesn't it?
MR. SIEGEL: Calls for speculation.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. That's the whole point of representations
and warranties, isn't it?
MR. SIEGEL: Argumentative, calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: Seems to me that's part of
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. -- isn't that true?
MR. SIEGEL: Argumentative and misstates
the document.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Isn't that exactly what you say?
MR. SIEGEL: It misstates the document.
MR. SELENDY: No speaking objections.
MR. SIEGEL: That's not -- let's not add
three words and say isn't that what the document
says when we're looking at the document and those
word don't appear. That's lying.
MR. SELENDY: I've noticed, Mr. Siegel,
that you have a tendency to both answer questions to
the witness and give speaking objections in prior
depositions. I'm just putting you on notice that
we'll have the judge be the judge of that.
MR. SIEGEL: That's fine. The judge will
be the judge of that.
MR. SELENDY: Limit yourself to one-word
speaking objections.
MR. SIEGEL: You have a tenancy, sir, to
argue with the witness and invent things that aren't
there and say that's what it says.
MR. SELENDY: Okay.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Most -- most people would know, don't you
think, whether they made more than a hundred million
dollars in a particular year?
MR. SIEGEL: The question is argumentative.
You don't have to answer that. That's
harassing.
THE WITNESS: My focus was on the company,
not on my compensation. I wanted to make sure the
company came first. And so I don't know what I
made.
MR. SELENDY: Let's mark as Exhibit 1405
CWMBIA-G110171.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1405 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. By the way, did you receive -- did you
enter into any severance agreement with Bank of
America?
MR. CLOSE: Objection. Vague, ambiguous,
lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS: Severance agreement?
MR. SELENDY: Let me -- let me restate
that.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. -- right?
MS. CONCANNON: Mischaracterizes the
document, lacks foundation, assumes facts, calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know
specifically what he -- what he meant here. I'm
just -- I don't -- let me -- let me frame this, this
way, because you're down the same track over and
over again.
It's very easy for you in 2011 to judge
what we did in 2004. The decisions we made in 2004
was our best judgment for what we knew at that time.
We had no idea, obviously, like anyone else, that we
would have a market disruption of the magnitude that
we had.
The second thing that was important to us
was validation. If we're unable to sell the product
to the secondary market, the secondary market would
send them a clear message: This is unacceptable
risk. But MBIA and all the other monoline insurers
were a validation point for us, is this product
okay, is this product acceptable. Not only
validation for us, but was a validation for the
rating agencies, which assumed that the proper due
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A. I do.
Q. And he writes to you, quote:
"The extremely favorable environment we've
had for credit seems to have peaked and is now
deteriorating. It's plausible that the
impending down cycle could be more severe than
previous downturns."
And this is a warning he was raising as of
September 2006; right?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Just take the document for
what it says. I have no recollection of it.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. And it is a warning that he's giving there,
isn't it?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: It's a -- I think you left
out the first -- my -- my part was to stop buying
third-party product.
MR. SIEGEL: That's the subsequent -- I'm
not sure the witness -Did you look -- it's a two-page document,
double-sided.
THE WITNESS: Well, I'm looking at -- I'm
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you understand that the chief
production officer could, as stated in this report
distributed to you, could override the chief credit
officer?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SIEGEL: Vague as to time.
MS. CONCANNON: Lacks foundation,
mischaracterizes the document.
THE WITNESS: I had no specific knowledge
of that.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did Mr. McMurray ever explain to you that
he was not -- that his views were overridden by
David Sambol?
A. Not to my recollection.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
Mischaracterizes the document, assumes facts not in
evidence.
THE WITNESS: Not to my recollection.
MR. SELENDY: Okay.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Murray ever making any
complaint that the production side of Countrywide
was given too much leeway at the expense of his
concerns as the chief credit officer?
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question.
Q. Let me -- let me see if I can ask it more
generally. If you're trying to isolate the
variables that are most relevant to the performance
of a mortgage loan, what variables do you regard as
the most significant?
A. Down payment.
MS. CONCANNON: Same objections.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. What else?
A. And FICO score.
Q. Okay. So down payment, is that relevant to
LTV, loan to value?
A. Yes.
Q. And FICO score, as listed here, that's the
borrower credit score; right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is it also the case that the level of
documentation, whether full doc, reduced doc or no
doc, is a significant predictor of the performance
of the loan?
MS. CONCANNON: Same objections.
MR. SIEGEL: Are you asking for his opinion
now, then?
MR. SELENDY: I'm asking based on your
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it.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you have any reason to disagree with
Mr. Schloessmann's statements, either the first or
second of the statements, under the heading
"Problem"?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague,
overbroad, lacks foundation, calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I have no basis to agree or
disagree with him.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. If you'll turn to page 69 (sic) of the
memorandum, under point 3, "What Issuers Do."
MR. SIEGEL: "What other."
MR. SELENDY: "What Other Issuers Do."
Mr. Schloessmann states:
"Contributing to the market's perception
that Countrywide's jumbo and Alt-A deals
underperform its peer group is the consensus
view among sub buyers that Countrywide does not
stand behind its product by repurchasing bad
loans from deals, irrespective of whether
there's a clear breach of reps and warranties."
Q. That's a significant concern, isn't that,
sir?
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THE WITNESS: Yeah, document does speak for
4
itself.
5
BY MR. SELENDY:
6
Q. Does it refresh your recollection at all as
7
to any initiative by Countrywide to make it more
8
difficult for insurers and investors to push through
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repurchases for breaches of representations and
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warranties?
11
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12
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13
assumes facts.
14
THE WITNESS: The first answer to your
15
question is no, I don't recall.
16
Secondly, the criticism was that they
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Q. The statement by Mr. Schloessmann is that
20
Countrywide does not stand behind its product by
21
repurchasing bad loans from deals, irrespective of
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right?
24
A. I have no comment.
25
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
itself.
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one in a series.
MR. SELENDY: Same issue. Let me just ask
a different -- okay. I can ask the same question.
The second to last paragraph you state, on 761:
"It is important that we tackle all of the
corrective measures to resolve the outstanding
issues with this product, but more important to
establish all of the necessary protocols to
ensure that we are originating these loans in a
manner that takes us out of harm's way and the
loans are sold in a manner to avoid further and
unnecessary exposure to the company."
Q. What did you mean by that?
A. Just what it says.
Q. Right. And -A. There's no other meaning to it. Again, I
don't believe this was securitization. I think it
was a whole loan sale. Was a whole loan sale to
HSBC, I believe. And the two issues were the terms
of the contract, and secondly was the documentation
on loans. So I want to make sure that -- that this
was not repeated in any other area of the
operations. Simple as that.
Q. Did you give a directive generally as to
the origination of loans to ensure that guidelines
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were followed?
A. This document, you know, this document
speaks for itself. You just read it. I think it
says what -- what I meant at the time.
Q. Right. I'm not restricting it now to whole
loans or not. My question is: Did you give a
general directive as a result of the HSBC situation
that guidelines be followed with respect to the
origination of all loans? If you recall.
A. I don't recall. Whatever is in this e-mail
is in this e-mail. I don't recall anything beyond
that or before that.
MR. SELENDY: Okay. Let's mark as Exhibit
1413 CWMBIA 11524659 through 67.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1413 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
MR. SELENDY: Okay. Just hold that one for
a moment. I'd like to mark as Exhibit 1414 CWMBIA
11006407 through 6410 just to close out the
discussion on HSBC.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1414 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
THE WITNESS: Okay.
www.merrillcorp.com/law
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Here, if you could look at page 6408, do
you see at the bottom paragraph the sentence in the
second -- second sentence there, where you state, "I
want Sambol to take all steps necessary to assure
that our origination operation 'follows guidelines'
for every product that we originate"? Do you see
that?
A. That answers your question.
Q. Okay. And so you made this directive as to
all products; right?
A. Right.
Q. Again, what did you mean by "follows
guidelines" in this document?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you have any idea?
A. No.
Q. What kind of guidelines did Countrywide's
loan operation work under? What kind of guidelines
were there?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: The credit guidelines,
documentation guidelines. The HSBC transaction
was -- was a documentation -- violation of
documentation guidelines, as I recall -- as best as
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. I'm referring specifically to Enterprise
Risk Assessments.
A. And I'm referring specifically to I don't
recall.
Q. Okay. I made that clarification in light
of your counsel's objection.
If you would turn to page 4665 of the
document. And I'll note this assessment is dated as
of July 24th, 2006, as reflected on the first page.
A. Do you have a distribution list on this?
Q. I believe one was given to us with the
document. On the last page it says: "Prepared by
Sharif Shakhshir, first vice president Market Risk
Assessment Group."
A. There is a distribution list. It went to
Tim Lemon and Sharif Shakhshir, whatever her name
is. The first page. So I didn't see this.
Q. Okay. That's the e-mail. I don't know if
that's consistent with the distribution list or not,
sir.
On page 665, under the heading "Credit
Risk," do you see the statement: "Potential decline
in home prices"? It's the second point -A. Yes, I do.
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I recall.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Other than credit guidelines and
documentation guidelines, are there other types of
guidelines that limited or controlled the loan
origination function at Countrywide?
THE WITNESS: May have been, but I can't
recall any right now.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague,
overbroad, lacks foundation.
MR. SELENDY: All right. Turning back to
Exhibit 1413, the Enterprise Risk Assessment. My
first question to you, when you've had a chance to
look at the document, is:
Q. Which unit within Countrywide generated
this document? If you know.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Lacks
foundation.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Have you seen documents of this nature
before?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Well, let's look at some of the statements
made in response to the exercise that your board
director asked to have made. Starting at the
heading "Pre Crisis, Market Expectation and
Anticipation," the first bullet point states:
"Deteriorating credit conditions were
clear, but the expectation was that spreads
would widen, which could be reflected in the
pricing. Nobody expected liquidity to seize up
at such a rapid pace. Had the spread movement
been a continuous function, Countrywide could
have exited."
Do you understand what that bullet point
means?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Lacks
foundation, calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. No understanding?
A. No. Could have exited what? The business?
Q. I'm not going to answer the question, but
if you have no understanding of it, I'll move on.
In the next point, it states:
"We did not fully heed the warnings of our
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document.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Turn to the next page, please, under the
heading "Business Model." First bullet states:
"We need to find the right balance between
our value proposition to production and our
duty to the investors."
And then the next bullet states:
"Historically, production has had too much
weight in product, credit, market share and
balance sheet decisions."
Is that a fair assessment?
A. No.
Q. Do you regard it as ambiguous?
A. No.
Q. Go down two bullet points, it states:
"Broad guidelines were a central tenet of
our value proposition."
You agree with that; right?
A. No. Product -- the product line that we
had and our distribution network and our efficiency
and our technology and our lower cost to the
consumer was the cornerstone of Countrywide's
success.
Q. You agree that a central tenet of the value
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Okay. Do you agree with the statement
under the first sub bullet, "This was very
attractive to loan officers and allowed them to be
highly market focused"?
A. I have no idea what that means.
Q. Was that decentralized structure attractive
to loan officers at Countrywide?
MR. SIEGEL: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. How about the following bullet, "The
downside was fewer risk controls and less focus on
risk as the local decision-makers were not directly
measured on risk"? Is that fair?
A. No, it's not fair. Plus, it's incorrect.
There was penalties for lack of quality under a QC
system, financial penalties, so they were incented
to -- to the opposite of what you think -- they were
incented to do. That's my recollection.
Q. Didn't you disagree with the initiative to
introduce penalties on the sales staff where there
were nonperforming loans originated?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall that.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. If you'll go down to the next bullet point,
it states:
"Decentralization and local decision-making
were another characteristic of our model and
differentiated us versus our competitors."
And you testified earlier that that
decentralization was part of your strategic
initiative; right, to increase market share?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection to form.
MR. SIEGEL: Misstates the record.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer that question
simply.
Countrywide's method of gathering product
was done through a Countrywide branch system,
nationwide branch system, so we decentralized how we
originated loans. It wasn't through one source.
Secondly, we decentralized the process so
that it would be efficient and that it would meet
the customer's demands in terms of time.
Thirdly, we controlled the underwriting
through CLUES and through our stated guidelines and
through management of those guidelines and through
our referral system and our exception system.
Decentralization was a good thing for us.
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system.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you make use of a commission incentive
system for salespeople at Countrywide? Do you know?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's compound and vague
as to time.
THE WITNESS: As I said, I don't know how
they were compensated.
MR. SELENDY: Okay. If you'd turn to the
next page of this document, page ending in 2604, the
third bullet point states:
"Our model of matching products put us at
the mercy of irrational market behavior.
Irrational behavior began with brokers, and in
an effort to retain the book of business we
matched product. Those products then made
their way into retail. We were under
significant pressure from all of our partners,
builders, real estate agents, brokers to get
deals done, putting further pressure on
guidelines. We gave into the market."
Q. That's not ambiguous, is it?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I think it's wrong.
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You think it's wrong?
A. Yeah, I think it is wrong. I don't know
who wrote this stuff. But based upon my
understanding of how this company was run and
managed, this is a terribly prepared document
without, in my opinion, without understanding the
real issues.
Now, the fact is that customers always put
pressure on. Builders want their deals to close;
real estate brokers want their deal to close.
That's the nature of the business.
Q. You're aware that Countrywide did, in fact,
have a matching or supermarket strategy under which
Countrywide's own guidelines expanded to meet the
guidelines of its competitors?
MR. MORGAN: Objection. Asked and
answered.
MS. CONCANNON: Mischaracterizes prior
testimony.
THE WITNESS: I think I testified that -- I
don't know about the matching strategy, and I think
the strategy of matching products where we could
match products -- many cases we couldn't. We
couldn't compete with certain companies because of
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force.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. In the first part of the answer you just
gave, you said the reason for the shift was
unrelated to the market share objective?
A. I believe so.
Q. So I'm just curious: Were you telling the
truth then when you said, "We are aggressively
continuing to grow that commission sales force being
driven by our desire to get to that 30 percent
market share by 2008"?
A. I don't think my first statement is
mutually exclusive from this statement. They
both -- one was to even out our earnings, two was to
get to increased market share. That's the only way
we could get there.
Q. Okay. So part of the reason for moving to
a commission sales force was to get to your 30
percent market share as you stated then?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you made reference to
guidelines before, and I wanted to ask you: Are you
familiar with the loan program guides that
Countrywide put together?
A. No.
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Desk.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Lacks
foundation.
THE WITNESS: I can only assume that they
have guidelines, but they're unrelated to the
referral process generally for conforming loans.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. If approval of a nonconforming loan is
based upon compensating factors, as you use that
term, is there any obligation on the part of the
loan originator to document what those compensating
factors are?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague,
overbroad, lacks foundation, incomplete
hypothetical.
THE WITNESS: You're mixing a lot of stuff
together. But let me just say this: That every
underwriter has guidelines, whether loans be
referred or not. Structured Loan Desk, I'm
confident, has guidelines. It can't operate without
guidelines, can't underwrite without guidelines.
You underwrite to something. You're underwriting to
guidelines.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Are all the guidelines provided to
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Which guidelines are public?
A. All guidelines. Anything -- we were -we're a transparent company. Anything that they
asked for, Fannie Mae asked for, whatever -- they
knew exactly our guidelines because they adopted our
guidelines in our CLUES system. So our guidelines
were not a secret. Anybody could have had them. It
was not a trade secret.
Q. Is it fair to say that in order to
understand how Countrywide originated the loans, one
has to look at the guidelines that Countrywide used?
MR. SIEGEL: Question's argumentative,
overbroad, compound.
THE WITNESS: Who?
MR. SELENDY: Let's start with MBIA, the
monoline insurer that's the plaintiff here.
THE WITNESS: Look -MR. SIEGEL: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: -- based upon just logic -First of all, we publicized every month the
type of loans we were originating, the FICO scores
in those loans, all the products publicly, issued a
public report every month. If it was Fannie or
Freddie, the insurers or MBIA, or whoever, wanted it
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A. Experience, yeah.
Q. Can you be more specific?
A. No. It's just experience. If you have
experience underwriting, you have -- you've seen
thousands and thousands of loans in a pattern, you
have a certain expectation, and you have a comfort
level that -- of which you rely upon. Judgment.
Underwriting is about judgment.
Q. What kind of training did Countrywide
require for its loan originators in order to
understand what could be accepted as a compensating
factor?
MR. SIEGEL: Compound, vague, and calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: Loan underwrite -- loan
originators did not underwrite loans.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Okay. Which unit within Countrywide would
you say underwrote loans?
A. Underwriters.
Q. Okay. What training did Countrywide
provide to its underwriters in order to assess
whether a factor was adequate to be acceptable as a
compensating factor?
MR. SIEGEL: Compound, calls for
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speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the specifics of
the training programs, but I know that we had -that our training programs produced exceptional
people, and the proof of that was our people were
always in demand by our competition.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. How do you know that your underwriters were
even comparable to the underwriters at your
competitors?
A. Because our delinquency rates and
foreclosure rates were below our competition
consistently.
Q. For what period of time?
A. From 1968 until the collapse.
Q. Is it your testimony that after 2007
Countrywide's loans had equivalent performance to
its competitors?
A. I don't know what it was. I left in 2008,
so I don't know what the performance has been.
Q. When you stated earlier that there were
loan products that Countrywide would not match of
its competitors, could you give me any examples of
loan types that Countrywide did not match?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Asked and
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aware of.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. By "125 loans" you mean loans where the
value was 125 percent of the value of the property?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Stands to reason not to offer that
product.
A. Well, a lot of it was done.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: And insured.
MR. SELENDY: This is a document previously
marked as 1356.
Q. The subject line makes reference to a
Compensation Committee. Are you familiar with the
Compensation Committee of Countrywide?
A. I'm familiar with the formation of the
committee.
Q. Was that a committee that was part of the
board of directors?
A. No, only as it related to me.
Q. Okay. And what was the reason for the
formation of the Compensation Committee?
A. The Compensation Committee was not a board.
To my knowledge, this was not a board. I'd have to
read this, but I don't think it was a board
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. On page 3 of the memo there is something
that states "Corporate Compliance Internal Audit
Risk Assessment Performance," and there's a box that
shows award pay-out with various percentages, zero
percent, 65 percent, and then 100 percent for the
last three items; do you see that?
A. I see it.
Q. And is it correct that you get a hundred
percent of whatever this element of compensation is
if you meet -- meet the requirement?
A. I don't know.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague, lacks
foundation.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Well, if you look at hundred percent,
there's the number -A. I don't know.
Q. -- three, says "meets three."
A. I don't know. I don't know what it means.
Q. You don't know.
Did you ever suggest that well, we ought to
have a significant component of senior management
compensation which is based on issues such as
compliance and Internal Audit and risk assessment --
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accordingly.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. When you say "Ron Kripalani was very
instrumental in that profitability," what's your
basis for that statement?
A. The profitability of the -- get paid a $6
million bonus based upon net income before taxes.
That's my basis.
Q. You said he was instrumental in that. In
what capacity was he instrumental?
A. He ran -- he was a senior executive running
Countrywide Capital Markets.
Q. At the beginning of the deposition I asked
you about your prior testimony. You didn't recall
all the proceedings in which you've given testimony.
I'm not going to ask you about what you said in all
of those proceedings, but I am going to introduce as
exhibits the transcripts of that testimony. I just
want you to confirm in each case that the testimony
you gave was truthful and accurate, to the best of
your ability.
I don't think we have 16 copies of this,
but everybody knows what these are, and I'm not
going to ask questions about each one.
Let's mark as 1417 the transcript of the
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Again, you were objecting to the
implementation of the matching strategy, in this
case as to subprime seconds, by your head of
production David Sambol; isn't that right?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
Mischaracterizes the document and prior testimony.
THE WITNESS: I wouldn't characterize -I'm objecting to subprime seconds, not to the
matching strategy.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. So what did you mean when you said, "There
was a time when savings and loans were doing things
because their competitors were doing it and they all
went broke. We should not be involved in programs
of products simply because our competitors have
them"?
A. That's correct.
Q. Weren't you objecting to the idea that a
match itself should be sufficient for your head of
production?
A. No. Totally unrelated to that. My
position is that you have to separate matching from
quality, pricing. We didn't match every loan that's
out there because we felt it was imprudent to do so.
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Q. Okay.
A. That's the only way I ultimately knew how
they performed.
Q. Okay. And do you recall whether there was
any particular reason at this point in time why you
were asking about the momentum of delinquencies?
A. As I said, this is a company that I was
always deeply concerned about, every aspect of it,
and I don't know what prompted me to ask the
questions, but I asked them.
Q. If you would turn to the -- in the first
question:
"Has momentum of delinquencies abated or are
the percentages continuing to increase?"
Mr. Bailey responds:
"Although there are always seasonality
trends and issues related to the days in the
calendar, fall (i.e., number of days in a
month, etcetera) the general momentum of
increasing delinquencies continues. This is
true in the aggregate and on specific books."
See that?
A. Yes.
Q. Then on the next page, at the bottom of the
page, it states:
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Countrywide securitizations?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague,
overbroad.
MR. SIEGEL: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what you're
saying. What are you talking about?
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Wasn't that part of your strategy, you
would originate and then service the loans that went
through the securitizations?
A. That's been our strategy since 1968.
Q. Right. So increased originations was tied
directly to increased servicing fees and servicing
responsibilities?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection. Vague,
overbroad.
THE WITNESS: Yes. But you're talking
about loans that are processed through a Structured
Loan Desk, which is not technological, which is done
by hand, to one that's -- that's run primarily by
technology. They're very different operations.
Servicing is totally different than originations.
You can service hundreds, thousands of loans per
employee. You can only originate 10 or 12 per
employee.
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Is it correct that Countrywide was trying
to service thousands of loans per employee in its
servicing arm?
A. It's correct that we try to be as efficient
as possible and lower our cost of servicing.
Q. But is that number that you gave me,
thousands of loans per employee, accurate as to
Countrywide's servicing operation? Was it accurate?
A. I don't know -- I don't know the specific
number, but it's much larger than the origination
side because the origination side is very
people-intensive. The servicing side is not. Only
gets people involved when a loan goes delinquent.
And if you have a 5 percent delinquency rate, which
we ran about 3 to 5 percent delinquency, I think was
the number, 3 to 5 percent of the loans originated
by the origination department, which they had to do
a hundred percent of the loans. They were only
dealing with 3 to 5 percent of those originations.
So you have to keep it in proper context.
Q. Do you know roughly the size of
Countrywide's servicing operation as of 2007?
A. I only know -- I believe when we sold it to
Bank of America it was about 1.3 trillion, I
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believe.
Q. And in terms of the number of employees in
the servicing operation, do you have any idea?
A. No idea. Despite my criticism, by the way,
our servicing operation was -- was rated very high,
not the highest, by S&P, by Fannie Mae, by Freddie
Mac. We enjoyed special pricing from both Fannie
Mae and Freddie Mac, as well as pricing -- but -access to FHA products because of our servicing. It
was exemplary.
Q. And Mr. Bailey's response to you on page
ending 252, under "customer service response times,"
the last sentence of his e-mail states:
"We simply got too greedy trying to lower
costs last fall and have not adequately caught
up."
Do you understand what he's referring to
there?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Did you direct the servicing arm to try and
lower costs even while the overall operation was
expanding in size?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
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A. It is.
Q. And what was Jack Schackett's
responsibility at the time?
A. I believe that, but I'm not sure, that
Bailey reported to him.
Q. Okay. And you state in the fourth
paragraph -- sorry, the third paragraph:
"My concerns are further exacerbated by the
fact that it is our strategic plan to double
the size of our servicing portfolio over the
next three years."
Do you see that?
A. Yeah.
Q. That was, in fact, the plan, to double the
size of the portfolio over three years; right?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know if it was
or not. I'm going by what I've said here, so I
assume it was correct. That was the plan.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You wouldn't have said it internally if it
wasn't true; right?
A. Yes. So you should accept it that way.
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
///
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. In your second paragraph, you say:
"As you are aware, over the past year or so
we've seen substantial deterioration in the
quality of performance both internally and to
our external customers as to the level of
service that we are providing. The issues run
from outrageous disregard for the needs of
customers who have simple and traditional-type
questions, to the same mistake being repeated
time and time again, to putting out to the
public insulting and insensitive
correspondence, to an epidemic of passing the
buck, no sense of ownership whatsoever, to
placing the company in harm's way relative to
the legal implications of irresponsible
behavior, and generally a frightening and rapid
trend toward subpar performance on a large
scale."
Do you see that?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you said "as you are aware" to Jack
Schackett. Had you had prior discussions on the
same subject with him?
A. I don't recall.
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his resignation?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
MR. SELENDY: What's the objection?
MS. CONCANNON: Assumes facts not in
evidence.
MR. SELENDY: Okay. Let me ask you -- I'll
try to address that objection.
Q. On the first page, 8762, do you see that
Mr. McLaughlin states, "Regrettably, from this note
it is clear to me that I can no longer work for
you," referring to Stan Kurland, "in the capacity of
CFO"? Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he tendering his resignation as CFO at
that time?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Do you have any understanding of what led
him to make the statement to Mr. Kurland?
A. I do not. I don't think it was his
resignation if he says, "Therefore, I would like to
discuss how I can transition with another role
within the company."
Q. Right. So resign out of that position and
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A. No.
Q. -- why that happened?
A. I don't have a recall as to why it
happened.
Q. All right.
A. I think it was just a personality, my
guess, a personality issue.
MR. SIEGEL: Don't speculate.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. SELENDY: Okay. Let's mark as 1430
CWMBIA 12525795 through 96.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1430 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Okay. This e-mail exchange between
yourself and Dave Sambol concerns an issue relating
to the 1 percent start rate on pay-option ARMs
originated by Countrywide; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you raised a concern as to how
Countrywide could justify originating loans with a 1
percent start rate; right?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
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correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And then you responded to Mr. McLaughlin;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. After you responded to Mr. McLaughlin, did
you make any effort to figure out what led to this
falling out -MR. PETTIT: Objection.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. -- between Mr. McLaughlin and Mr. Kurland?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection to the
characterization, assumes facts.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. You can answer that one.
A. I just recall trying to reconcile it,
because I had very high regard for both men. I
thought they were people of enormous integrity and
enormous talent, and I was, as I expressed here -it hurt me personally to see this going on. I never
saw it coming. And I think it resulted ultimately
in -- in Keith deciding to leave the company, is my
recollection.
Q. Again, do you have any specific
understanding of why --
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BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. Mr. Kurland wrote you a memo entitled
"Transition Thoughts" on November 20th, 2005;
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. At the time he wrote that memo was it
intended that he succeed to your position as CEO of
Countrywide?
A. That was my plan.
Q. And why didn't that happen, sir?
A. The transition became difficult and the
board decided that it would not take place. It was
a board decision.
Q. Why did the transition become difficult?
What do you mean by that?
A. There was -- there was a question at the
end of the day. I believe the question of the board
was whether or not, while he served very well as a
second in command, whether or not he'd be the right
person for the command position. It was strictly a
board decision.
Q. When you say "it was strictly a board
decision," wasn't it your view as well that he could
not serve as the CEO after he sent this e-mail to
you?
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document.
MR. SELENDY: All right.
THE WITNESS: Let me just focus your
attention on the paragraph -- first paragraph in Ron
Kripalani's e-mail to David Sambol. He says:
"FYI, I completely agree with Spector's
note, and this is precisely the type of
behavior and attitude we get from McMurray. If
you read his note below, you begin to see the
type of bureaucrat he is and his office has
become. From our perspective, McMurray is an
obstacle to business who oversteps his domain
as chief credit officer in the sense that he
goes beyond the boundary of his role into the
business unit decision-making process."
Q. Do you see that?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Did Mr. Kripalani ever share this view with
you?
A. Never.
Q. Were you completely unaware of this tension
between the CSC group and Credit Risk?
MS. CONCANNON: Objection.
THE WITNESS: This is not CFC, this is, I
believe, CCM. Kripalani was in charge of
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Countrywide Securities.
Did you say -MR. SELENDY: I said -THE WITNESS: Yeah, I wasn't -- I wasn't
familiar with this particular tension, but there's
always tension. It's natural in any organization.
There's tension between underwriting and production.
And if that's -- the tension has to be properly
managed. And you'll see through the e-mails that
you've shown me that my ultimate support was for
McMurray, and I supported had his position. So Ron
Kripalani was not the CEO of Countrywide Financial.
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. So with respect to the ultimate issues of
credit risk, you supported McMurray?
A. Absolutely.
MR. SELENDY: Let's mark as Exhibit 1432 a
memorandum that you sent to the CFC board of
directors entitled "Pay-Option Loans." It's CWMBIA
11533794 through 99.
(The document referred to was marked by the
reporter as Exhibit 1432 for identification and is
attached hereto.)
BY MR. SELENDY:
Q. There's a cover attachment stating:
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background 205:4
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backgrounds
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backwards 128:24
bad 235:21 237:21
bailey 173:4 314:11
315:5 316:15
321:6,12 322:17
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baileys 315:16
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balance 144:14
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banking 53:6 65:2
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bartlett 24:20 37:9
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base 138:10 169:22
295:15 296:14
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32:7 38:20 39:4
66:11 94:9 100:16
108:23 118:10
121:22 122:8
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206:11,23 210:6
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257:20 261:20
268:20 270:4
284:9 286:20
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95:7 96:5 103:23
126:4 150:2 153:8
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299:17 301:5,8
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bat 324:10,10,11
bates 7:14,19,21,24
8:4,7,10,12,14,17
8:21,23 9:4,7,9,12
11:10,12,15,18,21
11:23 12:5 20:18
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299:6 307:20,22
bc 13:12
bc417572 2:7
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269:14
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111:7,19 114:1
118:17 123:4
124:13 174:23
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319:1
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123:1 132:14
165:10 202:8
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308:9,10 311:5
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334:24 336:10
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184:13 219:22
220:3,10 221:5
227:2 228:11
239:23 323:25
326:17 348:19
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150:3 184:6
244:11 292:19
323:8 345:14
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202:18
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36:21
birth 349:11
bit 147:21 285:10
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204:15,18,24
207:23 208:5,7,17
208:25 209:2
229:25 252:4
254:3 293:19,23
293:24,25 294:1,5
294:25 295:4
298:10,15,19
299:4 321:8 337:1
341:12,13,17,21
341:22 342:6,16
342:25 346:18
347:5,8,23 350:1
bob 93:4
body 274:20
boeing 22:4
boiling 184:11
bold 139:10 314:10
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144:25 187:19
210:7 214:17
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build 22:5
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bulbs 22:7
bullet 63:13 223:4
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bypass 80:22
C
c 1:25 2:25 3:5 4:21
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caldwell 5:19 14:15
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68:4 73:18 86:3
87:4 95:16 100:19
105:4 126:16
130:24 131:15,17
149:18 150:10,15
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158:18,23 164:1
183:4 187:13
193:8,18 196:13
198:17 217:18
219:18 220:14
221:9 226:18
227:13 228:6
229:3 230:7 235:8
236:1 249:4,19
251:2,16,20 253:1
254:17 255:6
260:3 265:18
267:9 273:14
283:18 286:19
289:13,25 324:23
337:5
camc 300:1
camera 22:7
cancer 324:1,5
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37:20 62:8 77:9
80:10 81:23 83:21
84:5,24,24 85:7
112:19 156:6,7
186:19 214:13,22
223:17 236:4
246:7 256:16
266:12 283:10
284:20,21 300:9
302:20,24 314:17
324:10 326:21
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200:8 230:21
239:7 253:3
279:23 280:1
301:10 335:11
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301:12
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156:9,9 189:24
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37:7 153:23
177:11 224:9
294:22 295:7,10
295:16 296:22
314:2
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159:2
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case 2:6 13:9,11
60:5 63:7 68:19
93:6 101:12,25
102:1 103:9,9
106:15 126:2
137:8 141:11
147:22 150:4,14
218:18 252:1
285:16 294:11
301:19 312:4
318:25
cases 25:9,10,21,21
52:11,12 54:4
101:7,7 186:6
270:24 348:18
cash 94:11 170:13
cataclysmic 40:4
catastrophe 154:14
catastrophic
142:25
categories 143:25
146:8 209:9
217:25 241:20
categorized 65:24
174:13
category 49:20
93:20,23 144:3
173:20 264:1
291:20,25 296:22
caught 329:15
cause 40:1 41:8,21
68:21 77:24
142:24 216:6
241:19 259:4,5
caused 40:14,15
41:10 78:9 196:8
288:9 330:14
caveats 206:22
ccm 299:17,20,25
300:3,13 345:25
central 43:19
263:17,25 305:20
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ceo 17:2,5,9,19
18:9,13 22:4,5,13
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charge 248:23
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cherry 159:22
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chief 24:21 37:10
37:16 49:8,9
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120:20 139:9
178:9 186:21
199:11 200:9
203:2,3,10 210:21
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child 22:16
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chl 320:7,8,12,15
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choose 181:22
184:12 189:9
choosing 182:23
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64:20
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70:8 85:13
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claiming 202:6
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238:10
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212:13
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122:7 130:2
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175:9 183:20
221:10 233:2
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253:2 254:8 258:3
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275:16 308:25
323:16 335:10
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234:3 241:11
309:8
client 225:6
close 6:13 14:18,18
19:25 47:11 93:7
98:2,3,14,15,20
128:22,23 162:20
170:6 171:21
172:5 244:20
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273:17 280:3,4
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150:19,20
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cltv 100:7 181:7
cltvs 199:23
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68:6 153:2 175:20
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commentary
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314:14
commission 42:10
269:3 278:13,25
279:1,8,15,19
280:25 281:9,18
302:2 303:11,17
304:9,22 305:10
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278:24
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272:10
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193:7,13,16,21,24
208:25 209:2
293:14,15,17,18
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295:4 298:22
common 86:16
145:19 163:2
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communities 84:2
community 84:3
239:2
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91:13 112:23
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129:2,3,3,13
132:19 138:9
144:6 151:8 158:8
158:10 168:8,24
169:1,2 170:1
171:8,10 174:20
174:23 175:10
176:13 178:25
189:13,15 203:15
211:23 214:18
215:14 216:5,7
221:17,21,25
225:1 243:12
253:25 256:14
257:1,13,17
261:24 264:17,18
270:5 271:22
274:1 275:21
280:9,15,22 286:4
291:13 294:3,11
300:23 311:6
316:7 322:9
323:23 324:9,22
332:15 335:24
337:8 338:22
342:7,17 343:10
348:3
companys 60:18,22
67:24 68:11 216:2
272:11
1-800-325-3376
comparable 182:17
290:9
comparatively
317:7
compared 320:12
333:14
comparison 273:10
298:11
compelling 53:4,9
compensate 28:6
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268:20,24 269:8
277:25
compensating 28:3
64:11 75:4,6,20
76:2,17 77:3,11
77:15,23 78:8,11
78:20 88:9 102:25
282:17,19 284:9
284:11 288:17
289:11,24
compensation
169:5,11,20 171:9
276:14,19,21,23
276:25 277:7
293:14,15,22,23
294:2,2,6,9,15
295:9,25 296:21
297:10,24 343:9
compete 51:10 53:5
71:19 72:4,5
270:25 291:2
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138:17 142:8
239:24 280:1
290:6,12
competitions 340:8
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136:10 138:13
180:8
competitor 52:21
68:23 69:14 70:2
71:2,17,18 73:9
291:10 292:10
competitors 49:12
53:7,22 54:14
71:15 88:22
110:16 126:6
128:21 138:8
195:7,18 266:6
270:16 271:12
290:10,18,23
310:6,21 311:1,4
312:14,16 313:7
compilation 92:15
complaining 239:4
324:23
complaint 7:11
48:13,20,23,24
52:18 55:17 60:16
62:3,10 63:6 65:1
78:4 79:5 85:19
213:23
complaints 322:23
324:13
complete 252:18
302:4,7 308:3,5
322:24
completely 54:24
345:6,21
completing 210:22
complex 22:1,8
101:5 168:7 223:7
231:18 268:25
complexity 223:4
compliance 297:3
297:25 336:6
complicated
186:18 222:18
component 110:4,8
165:21 295:25
297:23
components 295:9
compound 25:5
26:2 27:21 39:23
50:11 52:6,22
55:23 59:9 88:4
104:6 234:12
249:3 269:5 285:7
286:14 289:13,25
302:23 347:21
compounded 242:3
comprehension
323:8
comprehensive
39:3 210:23 234:2
283:8
compromise
175:19,22
computer 82:22
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352:13
computers 83:21
concannon 4:5
14:24,24 17:20
20:1,5,24 28:19
31:11 32:21 33:2
33:19 34:22 35:15
36:23 38:21 39:5
39:22 51:18 54:16
55:10 56:25 60:14
66:4 67:11 69:16
70:10 72:11 76:4
76:15,21 77:7
78:25 80:19 81:18
82:12 84:20 86:21
87:19 88:16 92:20
93:15 94:24 95:13
95:16 97:4 99:23
100:18 101:3,22
102:12,21 104:7
105:3 108:17
109:21 110:13
111:3 112:7,17
116:9,18 120:5
121:7,20 122:10
122:17 124:7
126:7 127:2 128:1
128:16 129:24
130:9,22 131:12
131:15 132:6
133:4,16 134:1
135:18 136:24
137:1 139:1,17
140:20 141:23
142:15 143:6,12
144:19 145:13,16
146:5 148:2,20,24
150:11 151:1,14
151:16 152:24
154:19 155:9
157:13,19 158:19
163:17,24 166:19
167:1,17 168:20
170:17,24 174:6
174:10 177:22
178:14 179:22
180:16,24 181:9
181:17 182:21,25
183:3 184:17
185:21 186:11
187:7 188:5,22
189:3 193:9
194:11 195:19
196:6,13 197:5
198:10,16 199:9
199:13 200:4,20
201:6 202:8,19
203:7 206:25
208:12,21 209:18
212:25 213:6,8,17
214:1,6 215:3,17
217:17 218:8,22
219:3,18 220:13
220:25 221:7
223:23 226:17,22
227:12,17 228:13
228:15 229:2,9
230:7 231:8 232:7
233:12 234:12,20
235:7 236:1,17,22
236:25 237:11,25
238:23 239:11
240:5,10 246:9,17
249:16,19,23
251:1,15,20
252:19,25 253:7
253:21 254:16
255:5,11,12,13,14
255:21,24 256:7
257:22 258:5
260:2 261:2,25
264:3,19 265:17
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285:20 287:7,16
288:12,21,23
290:25 291:11
292:1,12,21 293:9
295:14 296:25
297:13 298:1,6
300:14 302:21
303:8 307:16,20
307:25 308:14
309:18 310:8
311:13,19 312:6
313:16 318:1,10
325:5,18 326:10
326:16 327:2,15
329:19,25 330:10
330:13 331:16,24
333:22 334:11
335:2,4,16 336:8
337:4,14 338:12
339:25 342:1,18
345:23 347:19
348:9 349:7
conceivable 152:8
concentrated
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concept 103:13,13
279:21
concern 61:13
62:18,24 76:2,17
101:12,20,23
102:5 103:23
104:22 143:8
144:4 155:13
156:10 159:24
163:16 175:9
178:24 232:5
235:24 285:12
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concerned 20:10
61:13,14,15 62:17
62:23 104:23
106:15 143:15
146:7,8 153:8
154:24 155:21,22
156:7,8 157:3,5,8
158:11 174:18,20
174:22,22 175:24
203:18,20 316:8
concerning 241:22
concerns 63:7
102:9 134:5 144:1
144:5,7,10 148:7
149:24 156:5
163:11,14 203:23
213:25 215:24,25
260:14 331:8
333:6,24,25 336:6
339:18 342:11
349:5
conclude 344:5,10
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concludes 350:11
concluding 259:19
conclusion 18:4,16
23:7 31:16 33:23
34:23 50:24
131:16 193:19
conclusions 38:6
conditions 201:2
254:7
conduct 259:1
311:5
conference 105:25
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116:24 132:12
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conferences 173:25
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77:21 122:2
129:11 168:23
284:20 294:12
confidential 225:6
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302:17
confirmation 304:4
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133:9
conform 78:22
133:10
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275:6 284:6 321:1
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130:7 288:1
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connection 31:23
230:5
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317:25
consensus 235:19
consent 7:9 44:10
45:4,12,13,23
46:1
consents 45:19
consequence
154:11
consequences
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conservative 57:10
consider 65:14,23
128:5 133:5,17
144:5 145:1,10
174:11 179:3
182:9 271:25
319:8
consideration 80:1
238:8 277:6
considered 38:13
58:19 77:11 96:14
133:18
consist 210:23
consistency 80:24
80:24 81:5
consistent 133:1
207:7 220:5
247:20 271:11,17
300:10 337:11
consistently 290:13
consisting 300:1
constant 61:12
175:21
constantly 54:1
constraints 230:22
consumer 124:23
263:23
consumers 123:13
264:8
contact 24:13
91:11 93:10 175:5
content 86:2
contents 351:7
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reverification
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safe 129:13,14
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sake 176:12
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salable 60:4 71:10
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245:5 275:21
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salary 169:22
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312:5 313:10
295:16 296:14
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sambols 159:16
163:4 172:2 184:2 samuels 275:20
241:13 243:18,18 sandefur 6:3 14:8
sales 73:11 74:14
24:21 37:9
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sandy 275:20
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125:24 126:10,13 satisfactory 238:9
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satisfy 274:23
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salesman 268:15
saw 104:2 133:9
salesmen 268:12
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saying 18:25 56:3
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122:2 138:21
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230:11 255:4
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291:20 310:24
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296:16 297:19
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scammahorn
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schloessmann
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schloessmanns
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school 43:11 50:18
50:22
score 65:3,4,9,10
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75:12 76:12
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scores 58:18,22
63:16,24 286:22
291:17 292:17
seasonal 319:11
seasonality 316:16
seasoned 173:20
seasons 13:19
sec 9:18,21,24 10:5
10:8 42:9 43:6
48:13 49:6 56:1
61:17 62:9,10
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second 19:21 20:17
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63:12 66:10 78:5
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245:4 247:24
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261:7 271:3
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securitized 130:15
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securitizing 145:2
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security 227:2
see 20:19 21:16
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129:17,22 132:14
132:24 136:19
139:10,16 142:11
143:1 144:7 145:7
154:15 166:5
167:11 176:6
187:20 188:20
194:20 195:12
197:19,24 203:4
203:19,21 205:24
210:12 211:3
212:19 217:12
218:2 220:7
224:15,16 231:3
233:5 238:19
242:21 245:3,7
247:18,23 248:8
252:8,10 260:12
260:24 271:7
278:22 279:4,5
295:15 296:12
297:7,8 299:9,18
310:16 311:7
316:22 317:12,19
318:8 320:13
321:2 323:3
331:12 332:20
334:10 335:8,12
338:20 345:9,16
346:9
seeing 155:25
179:11 192:16
232:12 250:16,18
274:10 295:1
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seeking 50:13
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segments 124:21
322:4
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seizes 137:22
select 115:17
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selecting 137:7
321:11
selection 147:24
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163:16,23 164:4
selective 159:19
selendy 3:11 7:3
13:22,22 15:16
18:1,12,24 19:10
20:1,4,8,12,16,25
21:3 23:1,14 24:1
25:1,11 26:5,22
27:8 28:13 29:1
29:12,20 31:7,13
31:19 32:11,24
33:9 34:5,14,18
35:1,7,23 36:8,18
37:3,14 38:1,25
39:8,16 42:1,15
42:23,25 43:16,24
44:6,9,15 45:1,11
45:17 46:4 47:5
47:17 48:8,12,18
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52:3,16 53:18
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60:9,15 62:2 63:4
65:6 66:1,7 67:1
67:13 68:8,16
69:4,20,24 70:7
70:14,19,24 71:12
72:15,19 73:23
74:17 75:3 76:6
76:16 77:1,14
78:1 79:4 80:14
81:10,19,23 82:2
82:9,14 85:4,17
86:6,18,25 87:6
87:14 88:1,11
89:1,9,21 90:3,18
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100:14,24 101:18
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108:5,18 109:18
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111:4,13 112:2,9
112:13 113:17,20
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121:1,16 122:6,13
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131:7,21 132:1,8
132:11 133:7,14
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137:5,9 138:1,19
139:6 140:1,8
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161:25 162:2,6,8
163:13,21 164:6
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3rd 305:9
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5953020 5:9
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