08-0080 Brandimarte IA Second

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Interview with Lieutenant Brandimarte, S0833 May 4, 2011
(Pause) LICKING: Alrighty, uh, time in this morning is about, uh, 9:22. Uh, Lieutenant Brandimarte, this is, uh, Joe LeGer. Hes one of the Sergeants up here. LEGER: LICKING: Nice to meet you. Um, and for the recording Im Sergeant Brad Licking, 1122. Uh, today is May the 4th, 2011. Um, L-T, if you dont mind, state your name and just give your serial number. BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Hank Brandimarte, 0833. Okay. And like, uh, before the recording started, obviously, the mics there, the cameras up there, uh, and what not. Um, I left you with, uh, these forms here. Um, I noticed the, uh, NOIs been signed. Thats your signature down at the bottom? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Yes. Okay. Did you have any questions about that? No. Okay. And the Garrity Warning, um, and to kinda save, uh, time on the Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 1 of 81
Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 transcription. We kinda talked about you know what the Garrity, uh, Warning applied to. Did you have any questions about that? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: No. Okay. I see that thats your signature? Yes. And you wrote that you do understand the contents and that you dont have any questions. Is that right? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Correct. Okay. (Pause) And the last form I left you with is the, uh, Employees Choice to Proceed with Internal Interview, uh, without an Employee Observer. And I noticed that you, you signed that. So you didnt want an employee observer, is that right? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: No. Okay. Um, this particular case is IA case 08-0080. And I worked with you a couple of times. You and I know each other well. I know, uh, Sergeant LeGer, um, hasnt had a chance to work with you. Um, just kinda briefly if you can just tell us how long youve been with the Office and what assignments youve held since youve been here. BRANDIMARTE: Uh, Ive been here 23 years. Uh, I worked patrol, uh, warrants, Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 2 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 transportation, courts, uh, detectives in District II, detective supervisor in District III, uh, GID, Jail Crimes. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Um hum. Uh, Arson, uh, SVU, obviously. Um, right now Im at the ACTIC, uh, doin counterintelligence stuff. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Okay. So. Um. And Extradition. Oh, okay. Uh, weve take a few trip together. Um, when did you become the Lieutenant over and Ill just spell it out for the transcription, the Special Victims Unit. From here on out well refer to it as the SVU. Um, when did you take over as the Lieutenant of that division? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: I believe it was either March or April of 2007. Okay. And who was the, uh, previous Lieutenant? Fred McCann. Okay. Um, who was, who was the current Sergeant at that time? Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 3 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080
BRANDIMARTE: LICKING:
Uh, Kim Seagraves. Alright. Um, to your knowledge what type of a case tracking system, um, was being utilized by the SVU when you, uh, take over as the Lieutenant there?
BRANDIMARTE:
Uh, there was an assumption that they were using a case log book, which was similar to what my experience was, uh, as a District Detective and a District Detective Supervisor. Uh, I subsequently found out that there was no actual tracking system that I was aware of in place other than what Kim Seagraves kept on your computer. Uh, she kept a, a file of sorts, uh, cases in, cases out so it was somethin that she managed.
LICKING:
Okay. Um, but there wasnt anything? It, it was my understanding at least when I worked District II Detectives like with RMS and that type of thing, um,
Well. at least it was there. But do you know if, if Kim as the Detective unit supervisor was she utilizing RMS?
BRANDIMARTE:
Uh, I, I know that RMS was available. I, I dont think she used it as much as Margie Chavez was in charge of it. Um, in fact at, at one point, uh, when this all kinda came to light, uh, Margie and I sat down and had to actually use RMS to do an audit, uh, as compared to what Kim was keeping a file on.
Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 4 of 81
LICKING:
Okay. And you know I had, uh, Lieutenant McCann in here and, uh, we talked about it. RMS, I guess at that time was a fairly new system anyway.
BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING:
Correct. Um, had you had any opportunity to become, uh, familiar with RMS? Uh, I had not take a training class in RMS until I was assigned to GID, Okay. uh, and I took the, the brief course and I was thoroughly confused by it. Okay. So. Um, so that I guess if, if you were to look at Im assuming the reports and weve, Ive got a couple of copies from some case logs and what not that well take a look at. But, um, I guess if something was printed out, youd at least be able to look at that, um, and see like what the status of each case. Would, would you, do you think at least at that time that you were the Lieutenant of SVU that at least looking at the printed out reports would, do you think that you would get a fair idea of like what the case entailed, what the status was or was it or, or was the system at that time just still so new that it was still kinda foggy to somebody that wasnt?
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: Uh, a- again, I dont think she used it so if that is a capability of that system, uh, I wasnt aware of it. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Um hum. Um, they the only time I ever saw anything with a consistent, uh, monthly case status, uh, was around October or so when we were actually auditing cases to go back to El Mirage. LICKING: Okay, okay. And, uh, you know obviously that is pretty much the, the kind of the crux of this particular investigation, um, why it became a concern, uh, not only for the Sheriffs Office but for the City of El Mirage as well. Um, and to be fair to everybody that Ive brought in, um, and obviously, even the IA number being an 08, obviously, its a very old case. Um, uh, theres been some time. Theres been a little bit of dust thats collected on some of the files, um, but what were gonna kinda dig into today and some of the main issues, um, that were gonna kinda look at, the concerns at least that were brought up have to do with evidence that, uh, the Detectives, uh, had been storing in their offices. Um, and well, well kinda go over some of the case files. Um, the actual cases, themselves weve got copies of and everything had been turned into Records, uh, from some of the Detectives that work, uh, work in the SVU. Um, another concern was that some of the cases, uh, because case tracking was, was at least lacking at that point, uh, on, on, on Sergeant Seagraves point, there were many cases that were, um, just never even assigned. Ive got a whole, um, this whole binder here is just full of cases that were out there that should have been assigned but for whatever reason because case Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 6 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 tracking wasnt up to snuff, they never got assigned or worked. Um, and then another issue, um, had to do with the fact that even some of the cases that had been assigned to the Detectives, um, for whatever reason the Detectives just either never seemed to work the case or if they did work the case, they didnt get the supplements in. Um, there were a lot of times that you know cases would be worked, supplements might be written but property was never impounded and what not. So those are the, the main issues that were gonna be kinda talkin about today. But, um, and, and basically kind of what your role as the Lieutenant of the SVU, um, you know may have been at that time. So and again, like I said, I know its a very old case. Um, you know a lot of time has passed and what not, but hopefully, and I notice that you brought in a folder, um, with some information and what not. Um, did, it looks like one of them is a Policy. Have you got some emails, too or what, BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: I do. what all did you bring in today? Uh, mostly emails, uh, that I had saved. Okay. Uh, and then I just printed the Policies that you listed off, the three Policies just so I could see exactly.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: From when I talked to you on the phone the other day?
Yes, yes. Okay, alright. Okay, um, so I dont wanna put any words in your mouth. If theres anything that I ever say doing the interview or, uh, that Joe says at one time and its, its not right just stop us, correct us, um, that type of thing. If you dont remember something, you dont remember somethin so I dont want you to kinda go out on a limb and you know say somethin that youre not quite sure. If youre not sure, youre not sure. So, um, you know the main thing that we wanna kinda focus on today is just the things that you know for a fact that happened back then and what not. So is that, is that fair?
Yes. Okay. Um, we kinda talked about it briefly but you said that at least to your recollection about the only real kind of case tracking system that you believe that Sergeant Seagraves had in the SVU was some type of computer tracking system?
On her computer, yes. Okay. Um, and and the only reason I ask that, um, were you aware she does have a, um, a case assignment log, um, that when I showed it to her she said that was her case tracking system. Were, were you aware of another book that she kept, uh, besides what was on the computer?
BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE:
Hum. Or is that just kinda new information to you? No, uh, I vaguely recollect that she kept a binder, Okay. uh, but I, I seem to remember more of her work being done on the computer.
LICKING:
Okay. Which you know at least at this time you know most of that would have been done anyway but if I show this to you, I dont know if this will kinda refresh your memory. Um, shes got it listed out here by Detective and what not and I, I went through specifically, uh, with the Detective Rojas stuff. Does, does this look vaguely familiar? Did she ever show you a log like this?
Not like that, no. Alright, okay. Um, well, well kinda get into this log book a little bit but, um, so really the only kinda case tracking system that you were really kinda aware of was just what she used on the computer, is that right?
Yes, thats my recollection. Okay. Do you know if, um, per Policy and well kinda look at a couple of Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 9 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 these but, um, and you know, obviously, youve been in the, uh, um, Detective realm for a long time so you know what, uh, Policy states about the types of things that should be in a case tracking system. If we look at, uh, GJ-6, uh, D basically what its gonna do is itll list all these things. Do you know if at least the computer system that she had if I were to show you this, um, and kinda go through it do you, do you know if, were you familiar with the computer system she had you know that she? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: No. Okay. I only saw her screen shots if I was in her office. Gotcha, okay, alright. Um, at the time that you were, uh, the Lieutenant of SVU were the Detectives, themselves that were assigned to the SVU do you know if either Kim or yourself or, uh, and Im just gonna ask you. Im assuming Captain Whitney was the Captain at the time, is that right when you got there? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Yes. Okay. I, I cant remember. I, I, I dont know if he was the Captain when I went to GID but he was the Captain at the time when I was at SVU, yes. LICKING: Okay, alright, okay. And was he pretty much the Captain the whole time Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 10 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 that you were over the SVU? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Yes. Okay. Um, did either, um, Sergeant Seagraves, yourself or Captain Whitney, uh, require the Detectives to turn in either any type of monthly, um, case updates or quarterly updates to your recollection? BRANDIMARTE: Uh, there was no directive to do that. Um, when this issue came to light thats when I found out the Detectives, themselves were not even keeping case log books. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. And Kim and I had a very, in my mind, distinct conversation about why was that not happening? Um, (pause) the the stat keeping process was all done between Kim and Margie, uh, for in terms of I dont know if it goes to MFR or wherever it goes on the U: drive. But. LICKING: And just for the transcription that when we talk about Margie, is that Margie BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Margie Chavez. Chaves and she was one of the Admin? She, she was the Admin Assistant.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay, alright. Um hum. I didnt mean to interrupt you. Thats alright. I just wanted to make sure we knew. Um, so I guess, uh, there was no, no requirement in place to do a monthly recap, um, at least not on my part and there was no directive by Captain Whitney to, to do that. Um, being an experienced former Homicide investigator I, I just made the assumption that she knew that thats what needed to be done until it actually came to light you know. So I thought and based on her length of experience in GID, um, it just never occurred to me that she wasnt handling it appropriate based on her experience as a Detective. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: And what you knew about her experience? And, and what I knew about her experience as a Detective. Only when I started to look into this issue in October is when I realized how badly, uh, when I realized how much she didnt know so. LICKING: Okay, gotcha. And when you talk about October, um, and for the sake of the transcription the, uh, contract with El Mirage ran roughly from October of 05 to October of 07. Is that about right? Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 12 of 81
BRANDIMARTE:
Uh, I dont, I dont remember when it started but it did end in, I believe, it was October 13th, if Im not mistaken give, give or take,
LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING:
Of 07? of 07, yeah. So when you say when this issue came to light in October, are you talkin about in 07?
BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING:
Correct. When, when you turn things back over to El Mirage? Correct. Okay. Um, and again, I dont wanna put any words in your mouth but up until then, would it be fair to say that you, um, assumed that Detective Seagraves had been on top of the cases is that, is that what youre sayin or?
BRANDIMARTE:
We, we talked on a regular basis about, uh, cases, how the guys are doing with their case loads, uh, if theres anything that needed work, uh, were you falling behind, were we keeping up? We had a lot of those conversations in her office and at no time was I given any indication that there were any problems or no one was not keeping up on their work. I just physically did not see any monthly recap.
Okay, alright. So but I, I had been led to believe verbally that. Okay, so even though you didnt get somethin in writing, at least verbally you had communicated with her and that you had received some type of a, an update at least verbally about the case loads?
Yes. Okay. Um, was and when we had her in here, one of the things that she mentioned was that, um, that obviously became and you know it could be that way whether its SVU, any other unit in GID or pretty much anywhere in the Sheriffs Office just there always seems to be a little bit more work than there are bodies to do the work. Um, was, was that ever when we took over the contract and that added to the, the duties of the SVU did, did that become a concern for her as well?
BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE:
Uh, that was a common complaint voiced by the Detectives. Okay. That they took over all these extra cases and didnt get any extra bodies and that was a common theme the whole time.
LICKING:
Um hum.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: And in my conversations with, uh, the Sergeant as well as the Detectives, we had covered this topic and I tried to explain to them this is not the only unit that has taken on additional burden without additional manpower. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Um hum. But I, I, I mean on average I didnt think it was burdening us. It seemed to me there was anywhere from five to eight cases a month additional, uh, and thats just a guesstimate, LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. uh, so I didnt, I didnt feel it was. Would it have been nice to have two extra bodies? Of course, it would but I didnt think it was cumbersome to the point that it was any more of an additional burden than it was say beyond Homicide or, or, um, any of the other units down there that that had to respond to El Mirage. LICKING: Okay. Do you ever remember there being any cases that came up that she just didnt have an answer for like if you would question her about something? Um, and, and the reason I ask that is, uh, from some of her former supervisors that it at least appeared in some past, uh, interviews that you know any time that she was ever questioned about stuff that it appeared at least on the surface that she had answers for, um. BRANDIMARTE: She (pause), my as you well know, um, there was a other issue that popped up, uh, while I was there. Um, initially when I took over, uh, after Fred McCann, there seemed to be a very open and enthusiastic dialogue Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 15 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 between us. Um, part of that was she was very unhappy with Lieutenant McCann and, uh, while Lieutenant McCann was there, she would constantly come and talk to, uh, me about Lieu- you know what did I think would be appropriate? Lieu- Lieutenant McCann, um, and I remember one case specifically in Cave Creek where she had wanted to go back out and walk a trail and cause they had a, I wanna say sexual assault of an elderly female in, in the Cave Creek area and there was some information that maybe there was a transient, uh, living in the wash in the area. And she came to me one day complaining prior to becoming her supervisor that Lieutenant McCann wouldnt allow them to go out and canvas the area, uh, to look for this transient or any potential evidence like condoms or anything along those lines and she wanted to know what I thought about it. And I thought it was funny because it seemed like, uh, well, if youre tryin to find evidence a reasonable request. And not knowing both sides of the story but that was common when she worked for McCann was she would come and complain about McCann or, or a decision that he made, uh, where she would feel stifled. Uh, and she also would talk to Lieutenant Palmer in Homicide about Lieutenant McCann, uh, in instances where she felt she was being stifled investigatively. So initially when I got there, I wanna say the first two or three months we had a, we had a pretty good rapport. And then, uh, we were, uh, debriefing a case as a squad, uh, and I made my comment for which I was disciplined for. Uh, and from that point forward, I really felt a separation between myself and her and the rest of the squad, um, and our relationship, uh, became very frosty. It was very business like, very professional. And from that point forward when I would question her about cases, she would get extremely defensive. And, for example, I got a phone call on a weekend Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 16 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 from Captain Whitney regarding a case. And he said, uh, Kim Seagraves just called me to brief me on this. Why is she calling me directly? Did you tell her? And I said Captain, I dont know why she would be calling you directly; shes supposed to call me. So I and he said well, can you? I didnt understand what she was trying to explain to me, will you call her and try to understand it cause you understand the language and the terms that she uses there? So I call her on the phone and asked her about it and she became very defensive and she said well, I already talked to Whitney about this. I dont know why youre asking me about it, which struck me as and, and this was during the summer, uh, prior to. That was when the communication between us cause I, I, Im simply asking you a question based on the Captain asked me to call you and now youre being very defensive and some what evasive and not wanting to answer my questions. And, frankly, I thought you were being very rude in, in dealing with me. And she, she, she literally questioned me as to why was I was questioning her, which I thought was, was funny. Um. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Especially as her supervisor? As her supervisor. I didnt think I was asking her anything unusual. And that wasnt the first event, uh, there were several more events over the, over the, the close of this, this era where, um, when I questioned her about things, it became, she was very defensive and, and felt like I was, I was bothering her by asking her about it. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. And so thats how, like I said, the first couple of months was very open Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 17 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 and forthcoming and then it became very I dont wanna talk to you if I dont have to talk to you. And in, in reading through the other investigation it, it appeared to me that when the Detectives were interviewed about that issue, um, none of them had direct knowledge with the exception of the one comment, cause they were all present. But she appeared to have laid a foundation with all of the other Detectives about my demeanor and my behavior, uh, although none of them had direct knowledge about it. But, uh, it was, it was common with several of the Detectives that well, I had heard he said this and I had heard he had done this but I never saw him do it. I never saw him. So that makes me believe that she was creating a wall, uh, to keep me out of the; it was kinda the them against me kind of mentality. And thats kinda how I felt the last. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Thats, thats the feeling that you got? Thats the feeling that I got from July-is through the end of the October, Okay. when I was transferred out. For that particular case that you said you had called her about to get clarification at Whitneys direction, did she end up giving you the information you needed to get the clarification for the Captain or? BRANDIMARTE: She was more focused on why was I questioning her about it and it became, Im not gonna argue over the phone. Uh, and it was, I think it was a Sunday afternoon, uh, when I can just, Ill see you in the office and Ill Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 18 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 come, well come talk about it. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. Um, but the whole her whole demeanor on, on the phone that day just really rubbed me the wrong way and, and in retrospect, I sat there thinking I didnt understand the dynamic. It was almost like I was answering to her; uh, she was the Lieutenant and I was a Sergeant. How dare I question her. And I dont specifically recall that she answered the question but I cant say that she didnt answer the question. I just remember hanging up the phone thinking well, that was a piss poor attitude like I was bothering her. LICKING: Okay. Did, uh, when, when say Monday rolled around thats when you guys both saw each other again, were you able to address that with her again or? BRANDIMARTE: I, I, I know that we talked that morning. Uh, I dont know if I got a satisfactory answer. Um, and I dont, I dont specifically recall addressing it again. I just remember that specific phone call and how I was treated. LICKING: Do, do you know if, um, you ever had and, uh, a chance or a, a time where you thought it was appropriate to address those types of issues with her sayin that hey, look, you know you work for me, I work for the Captain. Theres gonna be questions. I need to be able to come to you that type of thing so that you could get (unintel 24:31)? BRANDIMARTE: We, we had those, we had those situations all the time. Um, she would, she would, when she thought she was under a lot of pressure, she would be Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 19 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 very short and, and snippy. And I recognize that. We all get stressed out. And so rather than push an issue when it can be addressed at another time. Uh, I do know that we had conversations about that. And, in fact, I have an email where, uh, in one situation she snapped at me and I walked out of the room because I just didnt wanna address it and she sent me an email apologizing for, uh, her behavior. She was just under a lot of stress. And thats the only thing that I have that shows that thats thats just her thats her demeanor. When she felt pressured or stressed, she reacted very defensively and aggressively, if you will. Uh, but I do know that she you know when, when things calm down and she had a chance to she was very apologetic about a lot of things, which makes you wanna be empathetic or sympathetic, uh, cause you under- say hey, I understand it. Look, GID as you probably know is very stressful. I mean there is a lot of pressure to get stuff done. Um, again, based on her experience as a Homicide because I think she was down there seven, eight years, ten years maybe as a Homicide Detective it never donned me that she could- she couldnt address the pressure and, and but it started to show itself, um, in in her personality towards the end, especially when it became okay, were not so much friends any more. Now were, now were professional associates. LICKING: And, and I certainly appreciate you know at least gettin an understanding of what the situation was, um, as far as you being the Lieutenant, her the Sergeant. Um, her case tracking, though when, when, when did that? You kinda said before that really, um, you didnt understand that she didnt have what it took to really kinda keep the case tracking going until about October, I guess, when you turn the cases back over. Is that kinda when Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 20 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 you got, is that kinda the light went? BRANDIMARTE: That thats when the light bulb went off for me that this is a serious problem. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Okay. Um, and and do you want me to address? Um, you know what Ill do before we get into that and I dont mean to, um, cut you off but Id like to kinda go through, um, (pause) just cause like I said, the main concerns that that we have was you know the, the case tracking system that was going on at the time whether it was functional, not existent you know borderline Policy or well within Policy you know type thing. You know and it appears to me. BRANDIMARTE: Yeah. Well, that that log book is something that I can tell you that I have never seen before. I do remember her writing notes in a binder, but it did not look like that with every Detectives information. It seemed to be more of a running sheet. That looks more organized than what I remember seeing her write notes into. Uh, but she seemed to do the majority of her work on the computer. LICKING: Okay. Now did it at least seem like from what you saw those screen shots when youd go in her office that it just seemed like a running log of all the cases that came in and who they were assigned to? BRANDIMARTE: Yeah. To me it seemed like it ran more like, um, by DR number and who Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 21 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 it, who it was assigned to. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. Um, and the day it was assigned and I, I dont know if thats how she kept her clearances. I dont know if she just. Kim, Kim did everything on the computer. Shes constantly typing on the computer. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Gotcha. Uh, but I, I do remember her writing into a log book but I can tell you it did not look like that. LICKING: Do you know if her computer case tracking system that she was using, did it at least have like, uh, final disposition of each case or status block in each case do you, do you recall? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: I, I dont recall other than asking her what status. Oh, this is how I Right. keep, keep cases. Okay. I never looked at it that closely. And, right. And, and the reason I ask would be if you or the Captain ever Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 22 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 had, uh, a question about a certain case, Im just curious how she was able to go and say well, this is where were at. BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: She, she referred to everything off of her computer. Gotcha, okay. And, and thats when, uh, when we actually sat down, uh, initially to do a, uh, an inquiry into. It was a response from an email from Chief Frasier at El Mirage. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. Uh, thats when we sat down and actually used RMS, cause Margie was the only one that was fluent in it. Kim didnt know how to use it and I wasnt that, I wasnt that functional in it. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. So and thats when we found out wow, theres all these cases from this time period. LICKING: Okay, gotcha. Um, so to kinda back track a little bit, you dont ever recall any kinda specific instructions that the Captain had given you to let Kim know hey, this is how we wanna track things here. I was just your understanding at that time that because of her extensive background in GID already that she should have already had that skill set as a Detective supervisor? Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 23 of 81
BRANDIMARTE:
Well, and thats what, thats what I thought. Uh, and, and coming in after Fred McCann, I think its safe to assume. Freds pretty, hes pretty meticulous. Um, to my knowledge there was no reason to believe that it wasnt being taken care of.
LICKING:
Okay. Did you ever when, when you took over from Fred, did you ever get anything from Fred sayin hey, this is, this is an area that I notice Kims lacking, you may need to, um, you know give her a push in this direction; or did, was there any performance notes that that you were able to look at her file that showed that she was lacking?
BRANDIMARTE:
No. I, I remember when Fred left, Fred was a little bitter about leaving. Uh, and prior to me taking that position, um, there was a comment. We were interviewing for Admin Assistants and, uh, Fred had made a comment to me that well, youre gunnin for my job anyway and that again put me off.
LICKING: BRANDIMARTE:
Um hum. And so there wasnt a lot of communication between Fred and I at the time. I think he was a little upset that he was leaving cause he enjoyed that particular position. And he felt that, uh, Kim and I were conspiring to push him out, which was not the case.
LICKING:
Um, since you took over from Fred, um, and up until that time in October did, did you recall ever making any, um, employee notes in regards to Sergeant Seagraves showing any type of deficiencies or anything in, in any
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 of her, um, employee records or you know as, as your supervisor notes for, for Sergeant Seagraves? BRANDIMARTE: Uh, there were some notes. Um, I dont know if I gave those to Bruce or not. Uh, I went through boxes of stuff, uh, last night. I couldnt find anything that was in writing. The only thing that exists in writing from that time was when I realized the magnitude of what was going on I, I created a file and just starting dragging emails into it so. And there was even an email I was specifically looking for and it may already be here. Um, there was like she sent me an email where she, she expressed out her gratitude for me being such a good mentor and teaching her how to. We had a disciplinary issue. Theres only one employee that we disciplined that time and it was actually, uh, one of my, one of my more favorite employees, um, and that was the only person she disciplined. And she, she took literally a week and a half to decide what to do with it and I kept telling her, uh, you need to do something because you brought this issue to my attention. Its now the Captains attention. Were waiting to see how youre gonna handle this, uh, and you know almost a week and a half went by before she could pull a trigger on what to do with it. And it ended up being a, a Letter of Instruction which is you know its, its just written documentation. Um, but both Whitney and I were content that she actually took that step, because it was part of that development of the disciplinary procedures and alright, so you, you had this employee do this particular action. What are you, what are you doing to correct it? Um, but in, in terms of, um, day to day supervisory notes, I dont have anything other than maybe what I gave.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: Okay, you dont recall any, any specific disciplinary actions that Kim received from you? BRANDIMARTE: I, I felt like I was between a rock and a hard place, uh, at that particular time with her relationship with her fianc, soon to be husband, uh, (unintel 33:09). I really. When she had that phone call with me and that was the first time where I really thought wow, the claws were out on that one. Uh, it, it had donned on me well, maybe I need to start paying more attention to that particular behavior because thats not what I want from a supervisor. I want like everybody else well take care of it, its not a problem. Um, thats when I started to think well, maybe I need to start documenting to some extent because I was thinking that she might need to move. And then there was the other part of me that thought well, this is futile because shes never gonna move from this spot until she wants to based on the dynamics of, of relationships at the time. LICKING: Okay, alright. Um, Sergeant Seagraves at one point and this is, uh, well before you got there when Lieutenant McCann was still there. He had, she actually authored, uh, this particular memo and it in a nutshell, basically, just addresses the concerns that she had with, uh, the way cases were being assigned or not assigned from El Mirage. Um, and her recommendation was that because at the time when El Mirage was dispatching for themselves, um, if an El Mirage Officer took a sex crimes case, they might take the initial report but because there was no reference DR pulled with MCSO, um, you know MCSO was never aware of it. And it was only if the El Mirage person actually sent a face sheet to SVU that was the only actual tracing mechanism that they had. And so her recommendation was to notify El Mirage that any time they took that type of a crime to pull a Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 26 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 reference DR, uh, with MCSO so at least there was some type of written record that you know at least if they could pull up on a weekly basis and say oh, there should be at least three reports coming in this week and we havent seen them yet, we can call and make arrangements to get that. Um, were you familiar that this memo had been written? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Ive never seen it before. Never seen it before, okay. Although I will say, uh, being a Lieutenant in III at the time, we had the same issue with our District Detectives cause a lot of the non sex stuff was comin to the District Detectives for follow up LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Um hum. so I, I do know that there was a problem like that and, and pulling a dual. I do seem to recall that that a lot of the cases that were getting worked had an El Mirage case and an MCSO LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. case number. Alright, okay. Um, so it, its not something that Im not familiar with but Ive never, Ive never seen that memo before. Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 27 of 81
You just never saw this memo? No. Um, did Sergeant Seagraves and, and basically, the reason we bring this up. It went up through the chain. Lieutenant McCann, um, I believe said it was, uh, Captain Bill Knight at the time. But it also went all the up through, uh, Chief Freeman and he, obviously, with his note on there you can see that basically kinda in a nutshell he was telling Kim hey look, Im aware of it but.
BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING:
We just have to deal with it. Right. Right. You know and you know supposedly its gonna resolve itself. (Unintel 36:15) Um, per Sergeant Seagraves that it didnt resolve itself in a month. It took actually quite a bit of time for that to actually become the case where they would pull a, a second DR number. Um, did she ever voice that concern? And I know youre not familiar with the memo, but did she ever voice that concern with you as her supervisor
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: No. when you took over? Okay. No. Okay, so you werent even aware of the fact that that had been a concern for her at that time? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: No. Okay, alright. Um. A- a- again, um, my knowledge of what was going on was only from the point I came in LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Right. to the point it ended. Uh, we never disused anything prior to other than she didnt feel, um, she didnt care for, for Lieutenant McCann very much. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. So but as far as the work environment, um, a a loss of cases, um, not at any time did she ever tell me that well, theres these cases that might be lost till we actually sat down and did this audit with the RMS system. LICKING: Okay. Did you ever get any indication from, uh, Captain Whitney from the Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 29 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 time that you were there from the time you took over that this, this may have been an issue at the time? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: No. Okay. Um, (pause) if we look at, uh, GJ-6 again, uh, that particular Policy and, and basically, like I said it, it kinda goes into, into depth as to what Policy kind of expects to be in a case log. Um, would you agree having worked in, um, GID that GJ-6D kinda one and all the things it spells out that that would be what you would kind of expect a Detective Supervisor to have on their case log? BRANDIMARTE: Uh, thats what I would expect and thats what I would expect each Detective to have, uh, and thats what I had, uh, when I was the District III Detective Supervisor. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. I could go in at any given time and tell you what the status of a case was, what the comments were, whether something was out to the County Attorneys office, whether something came back for further. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Right. Um, and again, I, I believed that thats what she was doin. And, and youve kind of already answered this, but Im gonna show it to you again. Um, obviously, if we take a look at what Sergeant Seagraves Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 30 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 had presented as her, as her major case tracking, um, system this particular log, um, I mean if we look through I mean some of the things. Its obviously supposed to have you know a complete date. Obviously, if you look through, it doesnt even have complete dates. Um, you know a lot of these dont even have a, any, any type of a case status or final disposition or you know Policy specifically says there at least needs to be that so at least the Detective Supervisor can go oh, lets see how many cases Rojas has got active and she could be able to at least, whether it was in the computer or on a log book go through and sit down with each Detective and kinda go through. Would, would you just looking at this does, would you think that this log complies with Policy? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: No. Okay. And again, the the question again is you werent familiar with this particular? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: I dont recall ever seeing that before. Okay, alright. And, um, not to beat it up too, too badly. But you just, um, assumed with her experience in GID that she would have been had keeping a, a case tracking system that would have complied with Policy. Is that right? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Correct. Okay.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: I, I truly did not understand how little she knew Okay. till we had a conversation one day about all of these cases, which are now popping up. And, uh, I said, we were talking about inactivating cases or suspending cases where theres nothing else to follow up on. Uh, her response was we dont do that. And I said what do you, what do you mean we dont do that? LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: And, and I dont mean to cut you off but well definitely get into that. Oh, okay. Um, so just, um, well go on to one thing and then well get right into that. Okay. So if you can kinda remember Okay. what you were thinkin there. I didnt mean to cut you off. Um, the so when we look at her case log and then we actually kinda pick apart some of the cases that and, and I itemized a bunch of them out but I really kinda stopped with Rojas just because it pretty much showed that there had at least been a trend at that point. Um, if we look at case, um, and what we did was we actually got actual copies of everything that had been turned Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 32 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 into, to Records down there to, to be the official report for each case for each DR. And then I had to go through and kinda, kinda do an itemized list for each case, show how it, um, kinda tracked back to whether it was tracked in Sergeant Seagraves log and then all of the what we consider as what we title as investigate or follow up actions that were lacking in each case. So, um, if we look at the just the first case that Ive got here. Uh, this is DR 06-11977. BRANDIMARTE: This is, this is more what I remember her. I remember seeing this from somewhere. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. And maybe this was actually Rojass. This, this is Rojass, um, his his actual. This, this form Ive seen because this is what we were using in, in the Districts. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Right, and thats right. This is what I was familiar with as well. Right. And they had actually taken this and actually put it on the computer. It lot at least a lot of us had done it in like an excel spreadsheet. BRANDIMARTE: Correct. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 33 of 81
It was in this type of format to where you actually had. But the spreadsheet when you did comments, it was an expanding comment usually where you could put more information in it.
Right, right. And thats what I thought she was doing. Okay. Um, right. And, and like you said, this that was actually Rojass, um, case log. And, and what I had to go through was each case I mean cause there were some cases well find that they may have been in his case tracking log showing that it was assigned to him but it never even showed up in her case tracking log. So if she were asked about it, she wouldnt even be aware that Rojas even had the case or that it was something that SVU was supposed to be working on. Um, this first case, um, like I said, it actually has you know kind of a copy of, um, the, the first Police report that was taken. Obviously, it was, it was an El Mirage P.D. report and just the supplements that were done. When we go through it, um, it the clearance was actually signed off by Sergeant Seagraves in the end. Um, you know she admitted that that was actually her signature and it was exceptionally cleared and that type of thing. But when Rojas does the interviews and does a taped interview and that type of thing, theres, um, no evidence sheets and theres no, um, property, um, sheet showing that any of those, uh, recordings of the interviews and things like that were impounded as, as evidence and what not. And, and
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 like I said, itll go through case after case after case. Would, would that, would that be a proper way for SVU Detective Sergeant to sign off a SVU case? BRANDIMARTE: I, I, what I think is once the case is cleared, the actual file should be there so the Sergeant can go through and make sure all of the parts are there. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Right. Uh, make sure everything. Cause you sign off like I mean its easy to just get a file, a thin file folder with a, a case clearance sheet and I know as a Detective Supervisor in District III, Id have my guys show me what youve got before Id sign it off. And I think that was thats pretty common practice. LICKING: Right. And thats thats what, thats what I was familiar with as well. And when I talked to Sergeant Seagraves, she said a lotta times all she was getting was like a, a clearance sheet in the end. And when but she would talk to the Detective and they would say no, Ive already done all this you know. And a lot of times they would say in their supplement that you know either for their supplements to follow or, um, the evi- or the interview was, uh, um, saved on to a disc. The disc was impounded and yet, and yet theres no actual paperwork or documentation to show that it was actually ever impounded. So, um. BRANDIMARTE: Well, there I know there was a and, and change gears on you real quick. I, I, I know there was another instance where, uh, there was a computer that computer crimes had but they had never processed because they had never Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 35 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 received a, um, a, uh, request for examination. So Sergeant Molina. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: No, that was Weegees case. Yes, that that was Weegees case. Uh, Sergeant Molina kept calling Kim to get a, a, a, uh, Im sitting there. They wanted it out of their space. Uh, she kept calling her to get it done and I became aware of it when Sergeant Molina called me and said Ive asked her several times and its not getting done. So I have a copy of an email where I said are you familiar with this? Why, why didnt, why is this not getting take? Well, we already submitted. Well, whether you submitted a request or not, submit another one cause they, somewhere its not there. So if, if youre being asked for something, why are we not giving it to them? LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Right. So it, it. (Chuckle) So and again, I dont wanna put any words in your mouth but would this be considered a proper way to clear a case if, if, if obviously there were things that were lacking and yet shes still signed off the clearance? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Not in my experience, no. Okay. And you wouldnt expect that of an SVU Detective Sergeant to do something to clear a case like that?
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Yes. Okay. Um, you know some of these, some of these others. This was like a, this was 0. Im not gonna obviously for the sake of the transcriptionist to save her time. And obviously weve got case after case and we could sit here and your times valuable, our time is and I dont wanna go through every case. But there are some that really kinda stood out. Um, uh, like 06205683, um, this particular case was a case that had been worked. Um, it actually shows its one of the, one of the few when we look in Sergeant Seagraves log book where there was actually, in fact, we can take a look at that real quick. Um, where shes actually documented the fact that there was an actual arrest made, uh, but theres really no other, um, documentation as far as the report goes itself. So, 205683. (Pause) Um, and you can see where she, she listed in here. Its under the, uh, this column here. It says origin of information. I mean thats not even where we would actually put you know case status or final disposition but she writes arrest in this particular, uh, spot. So at least shes got it in here finally as a final disposition. When we actually look at the case itself, um, you can see that theres, theres no actual any supplements that are e- ever turned in, um, from Rojas, um, that actually show anything that really happens. It says the Sergeant log shows arrest, however theres no written supplements to support. Theres no documented follow up by Detective Rojas and theres no clearance sheet. So, um, is that somethin that would be say out of Policy for a Detective Sergeant to actually show that shes got an arrest in here and yet theres no documentation anywhere?
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: That would be inappropriate. Okay. Um, and so obviously, we would expect that if, if there was an arrest made, there should be supplements to follow, evidence impounded if there was any and that type of thing? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Correct. Booking sheets, copies of booking that kinda stuff. Okay, alright. Um, another one that, uh, really kinda stood out was DR 07148976. Uh, this particular one happened to be a case where a at the time she was 13 years old and this particular victim out of El Mirage had had sex with, uh, a 20 year old male. Um, the, the only reason it even came to our attention, uh, at the SVU is because someone at the hospital actually contacted us. BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Um hum. Uh, they had a report filed with Arizona Child Abuse hotline that actually got faxed over to the SVU at one point. And for whatever reason, um, this particular case even though its got the information from the hotline sayin that their or the parents of the, the victim who is now 14 delivering. She was actually delivering you know delivering the baby that day. And so when they actually tracked back thats how they figured out she was only 13 when, when she had actually had sex with the, the, uh, um, 20 year old man. Found out that mom and dad were there. The, uh, 20 year old suspect was also at the hospital but according to the hospital report, even because I guess they felt that the, the parents were said that it was okay and the 13 year old or now 14 year old at the time was sayin it was consensual sex, Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 38 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 for whatever reason the case was never worked. Now it does appear in, uh, both Rojas case log as well as Sergeant Seagraves case log, um, but theres the, the case never seemed to have been worked. Um, there was no clearance sheet, no documentation of any. Oh, Im sorry, it was not in Sergeant Seagraves log but it was in Rojass log. Um, would is, is there any way that you could think of to explain why it might be in Sergeant or in, uh, Detective Rojass case log but not in Sergeant Seagraves log? Um, and, and the reason I ask I just, just kinda curious from, um, the Lieutenant of the SVU what your thoughts of what was happening at that point as far as Detective or, uh, Sergeant Seagraves, um, as the cases were coming in. BRANDIMARTE: Well, as the cases come in as, as you know, they usually come in in a big stack every morning or if its the weekend, Monday morning was your heavy day in terms of cases. Uh, and what I assumed was going on was youd read through it and determine okay, this is somethin that needs to go. This is somethin that, uh, just gets assigned. This is somethin I need to get somebody on right away. Um, I remember the only thing that she ever really discussed were call outs over the weekend, stuff that they had to respond here or they had to respond there. Um, but she never discussed with me the day to day case assignment, um, so if, if it comes in, uh, the only way unless maybe somebody was filling in for her an acting supervisor, which was usually Mary Ward. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. Uh, its possible that Mary Ward may have assigned the case and not Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 39 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 logged it into, um, LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Seagraves. Kim Seagraves case tracking. Okay. So that that could be. I dont know. At least a possible explanation for that, okay. Um, would it, would it be appropriate for and if Kim were off, would she be expected to get with whoever was in taking over for her like if it was Mary Ward and ask her hey, what happened in my absence? Would that be somethin that would be expected of her? BRANDIMARTE: Absolutely. I, I, I dont know how you would leave somebody in charge in your place that you trust as being the one to be able to operate the unit in your absence, uh, and not say hey, what happened while I was gone last week or what, what, uh, prominent cases? Was everything check, did you log everything, did you, uh, what actions did you take? Is there anything? And, and in short term, is there anything thats gonna come back and bite me in the ass? LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Um hum. And thats a conversation you should have prior to going, heres whats comin next week; heres what, uh, what we, tell me what we did last Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 40 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 week while I was gone. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Okay. And I think thats that should be, thats a common thing. Okay. And as you can see, I mean Ive got just list after list of, um, I mean it just shows a trend that this is how many of the cases in the SVU were being handled. Um, were you aware of that that a lot of those cases were either not getting worked or and, and not being worked appropriately like, like supplements being turned in, evidence being turned in? Was that anything that ever surfaced? BRANDIMARTE: I, I had no idea based on my verbal conversations with her and the work that I saw her doing. LICKING: Okay. Um, at at any time did, did it ever become? Was there, was there any flags that were raised that led you as the Lieutenant to think hey, maybe I need to look at what shes doing or what shes signing off or just to kind of be kind of a second check and balance for any of that? BRANDIMARTE: The only thing she ever, uh, encouraged me to look at were the sex notification files, cause those were coming in every day. And I signed some of those based on what I was told how they should look, what, what files needed to be done. Um, but not the Detectives case load itself, cause to me it seemed rudimentary that that it appeared to me that it was getting done based on the one hand notes that she saw and what I saw on the computer. Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 41 of 81
LICKING:
Okay. Um, kinda getting back to that last case that I read with the 13 year old but the 14 year old that was delivering the child. Would in, in your opinion, should that case have been worked?
Absolutely. Okay. Um. K- Kim and I had a conversation when this issue came to light and ironically, this conversation was spun in a different direction. (Chuckle) Um, but the conversation was basically these cases are two years old. When I figured out from 2006 there were cases. I said let me ask you and I told her, let me ask you a question. Youre the mom of a 13 year old victim and now all of a sudden (snaps fingers), oh, we remember, weve had cases from 2006 and the Detective comes and knocks on your door (knocking sound). What would you as the mother say to that Detective two years later? And she kept and she just looked at me with that I dont understand, I dont understand what youre asking. And I go, its very simple. Your 13 year old child was a victim of a sex crime and then two years later a Detective shows up wanting to do the follow up on the case. What would your reaction be? I dont understand what you want. And it, and it, it would, its that that hamster on the treadmill and Im lookin at her. How can you be so I dont wanna say ignorant but nave to what Im asking you.
LEGER:
(Chuckle)
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: How, what? Cause I, I and I told her. I said Ill tell you what Id say, get the f- off my porch. You didnt care two years ago; dont bother me now. And its unfortunate, cause we have all these people out there and, and again, that conversation got spun in a completely different direction. LICKING: Okay. So at least you as Lieutenant Supervisor, once these types of things, uh, seemed to pop up you addressed that with Sergeant Seagraves? BRANDIMARTE: Absolutely. And, yes, and I even at one point addressed it with the Detectives, themselves and the excuse I got well, its El Mirage and, and theres one Detective, uh, who had and when I did my, uh, case audit he had the highest majority of cases in El Mirage that were still open. And when I asked him about it, his response was well, I live in Mesa. To go to El Mirage is an all day proposition. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Who would that have been? Felbab. Okay. Felbab (pause), uh, you, you get these answers from these guys because when this all, like I said, when, when this all first came to light and I can show you the email that I got from the Chief where Chief Frasiers asking hey, all these cases from 2006 and early 2007, which Im assuming prior to me getting there, uh, werent getting done or didnt get done. I had no clue they existed. So when I did my audit, I call all the guys into the big, uh, room the conference room in GID and I said somebody explain this to me. Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 43 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Now Kim was working off duty at PIR that week. LICKING: Okay, and well kinda get into that, too cause she, we had an email but go ahead. BRANDIMARTE: So when were, when, when, when Im asking them, Jim Weegee looks at me and goes well, they were shit cases. Thats your excuse? Again, Im, Im getting these excuses from these Detectives. And theyre sta- after I had that conversation and I said, Oc- October 1st I wanna see or November 1st. No, was it October? December 1st, I dont know whenever I got this, this other memo got written, the end of November. Uh, December 1st I told them I want everybodys case log book in my office. They didnt have complete case log books. Mike Brooks didnt even know what a case log book was, yet when he transferred into, LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: (Chuckle) when he transferred into SVU, he had come from Jail Crimes. So again, it baffles me that he literally told me I, I, I, whats a case log book? Now maybe Im old school. I get everything by hand. I love the computer because its generally it doesnt disappear if you dont delete it. I keep one of those, a handwritten log just like the one Rojas looked like he had. But for a Detective whos been there for several months and, and was hand picked by Kim Seagraves. She moved a Detective out to bring Mike Brooks in. For him to say I dont know what a case log book is that that conversation is when I truly realized this is huge. And, and.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: And this would have been somewhere around November or December? Uh, Im gonna say well, it had to be November cause it was a week of PIR, whatever the, whatever the race was November of 2007. She was at PIR. And I remember telling them I want written. Be prepared. Get your case files. Were goin through everything. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. They collectively and I have a, a collective response from Felbab. (Unintel 59:07) now. Okay. Um, when I got that email, this is not and I told them, I want an individual explanation from each and every one of you. Thats the response I got. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Right. So wh- where did they get that mentality that they could do that? And after I asked them for it, they call her at PIR. Ooh, Lieutenants on the war path because of these cases. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: Okay. Silly me! I, I, I believed she was doin her job. (Clears throat) Can, can I ask you a question real quick? Um, how, how Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 45 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 long was it that you believed that she was doing your job before, before you discover all these things were goin on? BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: The, the two years that she had been there. And you had been her supervisor for those two years? No, for the last five, (File two) LEGER: gonna ask and I dont mean this in a, in a bad way. But do you think as you're as, uh, her Lieutenant that you had a responsibility to do more than just assume that she was doin it right? To, to check things and be certain that she was doing it right rather than just assuming? And I dont mean that. BRANDIMARTE: Yeah, no, no, I mean if were. Look, if, if Im havin a conversation with you and youre tellin me everythings good, I see you actually doing case logs into the sys- into your computer, uh, could I have gone another step? I dont know, probably. LEGER: Did you have, did you have any reason to believe at all that there was anything wrong at all? BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: No! Are you, everything looked okay, everything? Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 46 of 81
BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE:
On, on the surface everything appeared Okay. functional. I, I, I wasnt, I wasnt given any information from the prior Lieutenant that it wasnt getting done. Uh, there was no, usually you hear whispers among the Office. Oh, shes a horrible recordkeeper. Shes not this. Shes you know and Ill be the first to tell you, Im terrible when it comes to recordkeeping. But I know thats the one thing thats gonna get you in trouble cause you have to keep track of your cases. Even when I worked Warrants, every stinkin warrant that got assigned to one of my guys, I logged it in and I logged it out. I kept a case tracking for each individual arrest warrant that I assigned to people, so I understand the value. Thats the stuff thats gonna keep you out of trouble. Again, I had no reason to believe it wasnt being done correctly.
LICKING: LEGER: LICKING:
Okay. Do you have anything? Hum um. Okay. Um, and you brought this up. Um, that particular, I guess, weekend that she had asked for time off. She, basically, she had a, uh, copy of the email here and Ill show it to you. That she had asked for time off, um, and that would have been November the 6th through the 13 is when she was asking for time off to, to work PIR of 07. Um, and she said it was that particular weekend and you can see the note that she wrote there that she ends up havin a conversation with you, um, and that basically. And, and I
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 had a chance to talk with Craig Lewis as well, cause I guess he was actually working out there with her at PIR and they had a discussion after she got off the phone with you. Um, and she was very concerned that at least the communication that she got from, from you at least how she understood it was that, uh, that they were supposed to go through and inactive or at least clear cases, uh, is how she put it, um, that were over a certain time length you know old is. BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Absolutely not. Okay. We had talked about, uh, why cases werent inactivated and when I said well, some of these. Uh, she goes well, some of them theres nothin to do. I said well, if you documented theres nothin to do, suspects gone, no longer a threat to the victim, theres questions about the victims credibility based on their interview with Chi-, whatever the issue was once you worked it to that point and this is clearly in Policy that you can inactivate a case or suspend a case and move on to the next one. I said why? You know these guys have case loads that youre saying are too much. Why were they not done? And she looks at me and says, we never inactivate a case. We do it all the time in District Detectives. I, I mean you, you assess, you triage, uh, what cases have the highest probability of solsolvability and you assign those cases. Under a certain threshold, uh, the Detective Supervisor has the authority to inactive cases thats why you review a case. Some cases dont get assigned. Some cases go back to patrol. Some cases just theres nothing else to do. Ive read it. Theres nothing else to follow up on. Thats what youre supposed to be doing Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 48 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 when you reviewing these cases. And she goes, uh, no, we dont, we dont do that. And I said, who told you we dont inactivate cases? She said Doug Beatty. And when she said Doug Beatty thats when I realized holy crap, all this time I assumed she knew what she was doing with this was, was, was a fallacy because her experience is in Homicide that you dont inactivate cases. So I made a comment to her and I said well, its, its clear to me that we need a class on case management and case tracking. The Detectives dont have case logs. Uh, you dont know that you can inactivate a case based on solvability factors. So and I, and I made the comment to her we need to, we need to put this class on right away so were back all on the same page and you know you cant unring the bell once its been wrung but from this point forward, this is what you do. Now the very next day after we had that conversation, she calls me and she goes, uh, just so you know I called John Armstrong and Phil Dougherty and they both it the way I do it. And I said, uh, then you didnt ask them the right question because they inactive cases. I know they do. Theres no way they can get done what they do at the District level and not inactive cases. So she heard the words I used, but I know she didnt understand that concept at all. And thats when it became apparent to me that how big this problem was along with the comments the Detectives were making. LICKING: Okay. Um, prior when like before when you said that you and the Detectives while she was off I guess workin PIR you had sat down and, and asked for them to come up with be able to explain their cases and, and have documentation. Um, did, did anybody receive any kind of discipline for not? I mean you mentioned that Weegee was like oh, those are, those are shit cases and thats why we didnt work them. Did anybody get any Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 49 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 discipline for not? BRANDIMARTE: No. Well, I had had meetings. I dis- I had discussed this information with Captain Whitney. I know I had there was one specific meeting with Whitney, uh, Chief Knight and Chief Freeman in Whitneys office where we discussed what to do. Um, I told them well, maybe we call El Mirage and say well take them back and work them. Um. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: Do you remember when that meeting would have been roughly? Uh, some time in November. Okay. (Coughing) Um, at which time Freeman said heres what I want. You need to initiate an admin inquiry and he told Whitney, you need to call Frasier at El Mirage and offer to take those cases back. Hes probably going to say no. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Now you were asked to initiate the admin inquiry? Yes. Okay, alright. Yes. I was asked to initiate an admin inquiry.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: And that was from you said Chief Knight or who was? Uh, Chief, Chief Freeman. Okay. Um, what I had done and this is the very last week that I was there because it was. LICKING: I dont mean to interrupt you but this, this, this whole meeting, um, how, how did, how did that? I mean was this something after you talked to the Detectives, you realized there was an issue, BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Yes. you told the Captain and thats when you guys? Yes. Okay. This day here was or this week here is when I truly realized the gra- the gravity of how bad it was. Now I had also done this inquiry cause I called her. When I first, I got this, let me show you this email. LEGER: Im sorry. (Whispers) (Pause) Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 51 of 81
BRANDIMARTE:
I got that email from Captain Whitney. Perhaps youd like to respond to the Chief. And this is what Chief Frasier sent to Chief Freeman and his response was, what gives with each with the cases? So Whitney sends that to me at which point thats when I call everybody into the big room and we have this conversation and I realize you know that oh, shit moment.
Um hum. So thats when I come back to report them, so thats when he says I wanna do an audit. So thats when I, I sat down and this is the same week for Margie Chavez where she and I sat down and came up with this spreadsheet based on, um, what we could find in RMS versus, um, the one, the one book that she had and I wanna say it was Margie had it. Uh, so we sat down and we, we came up with all these cases. On November 9th thats when I realized truly theres all these cases and all these cases from 2006 that theyre, theyre still assigned to people that dont even work there.
Right. So thats when the meetings actually start of what are we, how are we gonna handle this? How are we gonna proceed? And I dont remember the exact date that I had this meeting with, uh, Chief Whitney and Chief Knight and or not Chief Whitney, Captain Whitney, Chief Knight and Chief Freeman, um, but they told me to begin an admin inquiry.
LICKING:
Okay. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 52 of 81
So what I had done, do you want all this? Yeah, yeah. And then, and then this was a written (pause). When I asked her to explain, uh, this is Kims explanation as well as what she felt, uh, were the case loads of the Detectives.
LICKING:
Okay. Gotcha, okay. Why, why dont we do this? Um, weve been in here for at least an hour. Why dont we just take a break real quick? Uh, well kinda leave that here and well kinda pick up here in just a minute. But do you need to stretch your legs or anything or?
No. Okay. Do you need more water? No. Okay. Thank you, though. Okay, were gonna take a quick break and, uh, be right back. Time out is about 10:30.
BRANDIMARTE:
Uh, uh, hey Brad, Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 53 of 81
LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE:
Yeah. is my only option to sit in here with the door closed or can I? You can come out, sure. Okay. Its just that Right. its a little cooler outside. (Unintel 10:03) (Faint voices) (Long pause) (Faint voices)
LICKING:
Okay, time back in is about, uh, 10:55. Had an extensive break. Were, um, for the sake of the transcription what we ask everybody is, um, while we were out did anybody talk to you about the case?
No. Okay. Um, kinda get these organized here. Some of this stuff you may already have so. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 54 of 81
LICKING:
Okay, yeah, I appreciate you bringin that in so. Ill just add to this. Um, one of the, like I said, one of the other concerns, um, that was raised, uh, for this particular case was the fact that, um, a lot of the Detectives had been allowed to, um, you know what in fact before I even go on to that I just wanna make sure that that last point that we kinda left off with that we made sure we were clear on that.
Um hum. When you had the conversation with Sergeant Seagraves, uh, in relation to clearing cases, um, you and, and like I said, correct me if I, if Im wrong but its my understanding you didnt tell her just to go clear cases because theyre old, is that right?
No. Okay. The conversation that I remember having with her was if nothings been done with the case for six months, uh, and theres nothing to do on a case, why are we still carrying there on the books?
LICKING:
Sure. And so according to Policy you know to inactivate it per Policy is, is a correct way of doing it?
BRANDIMARTE:
Right, theres no further, no further. And again, she didnt, she didnt know that she could inactivate cases and Im, I was trying to explain if you
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 havent done anything with for somethin for six months and theres nothing to do with it LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Right. you know youve exhausted all of your, your avenues of investigation. And thats a proper way of clearing cases? Then that that would be an appropriate way to inactive a case. Okay. And thats you felt that you had communicated that properly and that she understood it that way? Um, she she. BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: I, I. She actually sent out an email later, um, November the 19th and that would have been, apparently, right after that conversation, I believe. And she actually does use the term inactive. She wants the, the guys in the SVU unit that have older cases you know if, if they can clear them out inactive and explain why and what not, um, that you know that would be appropriate and if theres any questions about that to see her. Um, is that pretty much what you wanted to, does her email to the Detectives kind of sum up BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Uh, uh, uh. what you told her? Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 56 of 81
BRANDIMARTE:
Well, sort of. Uh, thats this (pause). I did tell her if new information arose, she could go, they could go back and reac- reopen it you know. Uh, I mean but I never told like she writes in here if you have not touched it because its a low priority, then it needs to be cleared. I dont remember tellin her that.
LICKING:
Okay. It was just, your conversation was based on the credibility of the case and what active information you had at that point?
BRANDIMARTE:
Correct. Are there any leads to follow up on and if not, why are we not inactivating cases? (Tap sound)
LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE:
Okay. And then thats when we had the conversa- we dont inactive cases. Right. And whered that? Well, Doug Beatty told me. Okay. Homicide does not inactivate cases. Right, right. My understanding. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 57 of 81
Sure. Um, so we had a conversation about inactivating cases and how you go about doin that.
Right. And then again the next day she, she tell me well, I had a conversation with, uh, John Armstrong and Phil Dougherty and they said that Im doing it right. If, if thats what they told you, you didnt adequately explain to them our conversation because I know that thats the way it gets done.
LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING:
Sure. And thats based on my experience as a Detective. And thats per Policy? And thats per Policy. Okay. But. Okay. So alright so besides that, um, you know at least you felt you had communicated appropriately what Policy said and what you felt should be done?
Yes. Okay. Um, the next point, um, of concern that had been brought up was the fact that, um, there was several Detectives and, specifically, Ward, Weegee and Rojas that had literally hundreds of pieces of evidence that had been left in their offices. Um, some of them were copies of things but when they actually did the audit of the SVU unit, um, they found out that a lot of it was actually original evidence that dated back you know a couple of years and what not. Um, they actually went through and, and took pictures of the offices and what not. And I, you can kinda thumb through that quickly. We wont look at all of them. But, um, some of these cabinets you know have like a kind of door that would pull out and close over the whole thing. Some of the stuff was just left out in boxes and in the room but as you go through, you can see where things that you know appear that theyre obvious you know evidence, the way we mark evidence
Right, right. with DR. Theres actual property bags, evidence bags and that type of thing. Um, and again, a lot of, a lot of the pieces that they have there were actually marked original, um, and what not. Were, were you aware of the fact that the Detectives were storing or improperly storing a lot of evidence in their offices?
BRANDIMARTE:
Not at all. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 59 of 81
Okay. Did, did you ever see any of the evidence? I, I you know when you walk into their offices, they the three of them kept cluttered offices. Uh, the only thing I remember was I had asked on one occasion about some video tapes or and, uh, CDs and I was told that they were working copies.
Okay. And meaning when, when they burn an interview or they do, they burn two copies. Usually ones for evidence and ones a working copy.
Sure. But I dont remember recall seeing anything with numbers, certainly nothing with an 02 case.
LICKING:
Right, sure. And, obviously, wouldnt be improper to have working copies there or even as a Detective to actually have maybe a the actual original evidence sitting there if you were working with that piece of evidence, correct?
Correct. And then once youre done with it, you would, um, put it back into Property?
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: It should be disposed of appropriately. Right, okay. So is this kinda news to you then that they had this much evidence in their offices? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Yes. You never, never saw any of that? Okay. Um, do you remember whos office? Oh, okay, so when you asked about the VHS tapes, um, they told you that they were working copies; they have the CDs? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Yes. Okay, so um, (pause) one of the, I guess, one of the major concerns that got brought up and they were looking at the just the overall effect in this of the Detectives of the SVU, the Sergeant, the Lieutenant, the Captain and you know just right on up the chain. Um, one of the major concerns that got voiced was if the contract with El Mirage had never expired, then we may never have known what was actually happening in the SVU. Um, yeah, obviously, once it came to your attention, um, you know I dont think there would be anybody that would dispute the fact that you took the appropriate action. You brought it to your Captain you know up your chain. You guys had a meeting to discuss hey, look, weve got a major issue. This is what were gonna do, uh, to fix that and what not. Um, do you feel as the Lieutenant of the SVU that, um, you know more could have been done on your part as the Lieutenant to make sure that Kim was towin the line or doin things per Policy?
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: I, I think procedurally there were steps that could have been taken. Um, you know ironically, uh, the one Captain Board I sat on this was specifically a question you know hypothetically if you had this, what, what steps would you do? Uh, and one of the things when this became an issue was, uh, reviewing case log books on a monthly basis should be done with the Sergeant and the Lieutenant and the Detective. So there should be the three of you in a room runnin down each case, where are we at with this? What, what needs to be done? Why are we not getting that done? Um, was that the procedure at the time? No. But is that a way to prevent that from happening again? Absolutely. Uh, and thats one of the reasons why when, when I was told to do the admin inquiry, uh, again, you cant unring the bell but you can move forward from this point and say look, I, this is, this is where the mistakes were made. Were not making these anymore. This isnt happening. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. So when I sat down with her on a Thursday, I believe, uh, and we walked into her office and she said and I explained to her hey, I, Ive been authorized to do an admin inquiry into whats goin on. Uh, you need to and heres a mistake I made. Um, when I told her that Ive been authorized to do an admin inquiry what I should have done was Garrityd all of them at the same time so that there was no longer any discussion. Uh, what I told her was she and trying to give them every opportunity to gather their notes so that when we sat down we could have a thoughtful, rational conversation about whats goin on because my conversation week prior in the, the, uh, conference room was, was not sitting well with me and, and it Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 62 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 bothered me that this occurred under my nose. LICKING: And, and I dont mean to cut you off and I think I could kinda see where youre goin and they had a chance to get together, figure out how they were gonna come back at you collectively in this big email and explain their issues and what not? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Correct. Um. No one wanted to take individual responsibility that, and again, when I talked earlier about this us versus the Lieutenant mentality because very clear during the month of November. And, uh, the, the you know the, the information came up towards the end of October, first week of November and clearly, um, when she was at PIR and I first got this email, I called her and said, um, given this email. How many cases did we give back? LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Right. And she said we only gave back two open cases. (Clears throat) Okay. And thats what I initially told Freeman. I said but Im gonna find out. So thats when I sat down with Margie. Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 63 of 81
LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER:
Right. Came up with 30 to 40 cases. Just I have a prior, prior to all of this, prior to you starting the inquiry, dont you feel as a Lieutenant you had a responsibility to know for certain what was going on there?
BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE:
Uh, again, well, see. Rather than just, uh, I know youre just kind of assuming and youre Oh, I, I believed I had a handle on everything. (unintel 46:07). I, I, uh, what I observed her doing Um hum. cause it wasnt like shes sittin around goofin off. Shes constantly workin on the computer. I know she was reviewing case files. Uh, you know should there have been a, a, a monthly review?
LEGER: BRANDIMARTE:
Well, so. Thats thats thats arguable. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 64 of 81
LEGER:
The place was a big mess and the only reason that this was even found out about is cause there was a complaint made, right?
BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE:
It was brought well, yeah, it was brought to my attention but you know. But it was a mess and it was brought to your attention. Well, when, when. But youre, youre the one thats there in the mess. Youre in charge of. Well, again, if I have a conversation with you as a Sergeant and I say whats goin on with cases, how are the guys doin with their cases and clearin stuff out?
LEGER: BRANDIMARTE:
Right. And you lead me to believe yes. I mean did I, did I, should I have asked for physical written documentation?
LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE:
Looking back, do you think you should have? Uh. Its easy to say now. Well, of course, its easy to say now. I mean and but again, looking back I Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 65 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 dont think its fair to say you should or should have because it wasnt getting done. As a Detective Sergeant, I dont remember a Detective Lieutenant ever sitting down with me and said let me see your case log book, ever. So recognizing that thats a problem, should you do that from this point forward? Absolutely. In all my experience as a Detective Sergeant, Ive never had a Lieutenant sit down with me and say, let me see how youre clearin cases. LICKING: I and, and I can, I can see where Joes comin from I. The, the concern that I guess has been raised is as, as a Lieutenant what, how, how does a Lieutenant make sure that that check and balance with the Detective Sergeant is kept in line unless they actually you know physically I mean get. And, and you mentioned before that you guys would sit down you know on a regular basis and do like a, a. BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Almost on a daily basis and talk about cases. Right. But there wasnt any, there wasnt any hard you know like list of stats or, or like I said, even with her case tracking log it, it doesnt even have a, a column in there to show what the status of each case was. So that that was the concern that was raised was how do we, how do we monitor and keep and made sure that the Sergeants doin their job if you know we cant even see, uh, some kinda log or some type of stat that gets printed out showing that theyre actually making their people do what theyre supposed to do? Does that, does that make more sense? And, and I know and again, hindsight you know. BRANDIMARTE: Well, you know. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 66 of 81
Its always easier to look back and say look, yeah, I. I mean, I mean could have, would have, should have. I, I now theres a problem so this is what the way its gonna get done from this point forward. You, again, its easy to say well, shouldnt you have known? If I have a conversation with ya and you tell me everythings fine and I see you doing the work, I, I, how much, how much day to day do I need to get involved with the Detectives themselves to look at their case log books? I now know in this position ever again that its not thats not gonna happen. My experience as a Detective Sergeant was no one ever asked me for those things, so based on my training or OJT, I think a conversation was appropriate.
Okay. So I, I you know. Did, did you and maybe that would be a question to ask, too. Did you ever receive any direction from Captain Whitney as to whether or not he wanted you to do this on a regular basis and actually physically look at their cases or just?
When it all became the issue. So that was the first time you ever got any direction to actually do it physically and look at what they had?
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: To my knowledge, absolutely. Okay, alright. (Clears throat) Um, as far as statistics go, this is something that Kim submitted the end of July. So thats what I used... LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Okay. for, uh, child interdisciplinary protocol that she submitted to the County Attorneys office. LICKING: Okay. So this would show how many cases had been cleared at least this way, right whether it was cleared by arrest, exceptionally cleared, unfounded or other, right? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Uh. But this didnt this I mean I guess I just looking at it, I guess I wouldnt. (Pause) Does, does this show how many cases there are total? BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: That they worked on during that time period. Okay. So I think it was for the year. (Pause) Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 68 of 81
LICKING:
Um, would, would it be fair to say that I guess I mean and, and again, hindsight bein perfect that as, as a Lieutenant of the SVU, um, it would have been appropriate for you to go make sure that you had physically audited what they were doing just? I mean Im not sayin you had to do it daily or weekly but maybe you know quarterly, semi-annually or something just to make sure that and, I guess, I.
Uh, uh. I know weve all had people that we supervise that they always give you oh, yeah, things are great but we really know things arent great. And theres some people that we have to keep an extra eye on you know type thing.
BRANDIMARTE:
I, I, uh, look, I had no reason to believe that she was, she was giving me the thumbs up. And youre right, I have had people work for me that you know its just not gettin done. I had no reason to believe that she wasnt managing this properly based on my conversations with her, based on the things I saw getting done. Um, again, (pause).
LICKING:
And, and the only reason we have that were kind of harping on this is, obviously, weve seen this in the news now and now the news is asking us questions. I mean these are, these are questions that we now have to be able to look back and give an answer to the, the citizens of Maricopa County and say.
BRANDIMARTE:
Right. Uh, uh, look, if I would have had a brand new supervisor in there. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 69 of 81
LICKING:
But we now have to go back out to the citizens and say well, you know we had a Detective Sergeant. We had the Detectives, the Sergeant, Lieutenant you know who, who could have caught this, who should have caught this. How come this was allowed to go on as long as it was? Why did it, why,
Well, you not to be. why did it only come out? Look, Im not trying to be argumentative. Right. Um. And like I said, this its years ago. Its happened. Once it came to your attention, you did the right thing.
BRANDIMARTE:
But now is this the issue because its in the news or is this the issue because it wasnt investigated three years ago?
Well. You know I, I, look, I know from that point forward that yeah, you need to check on on a daily basis. Matter of fact, the Lieutenant should have to sign off on a monthly basis. This is, this is what Ive been inspected. Uh, had it been, um, had it been the proce-
(File three) BRANDIMARTE: we would be walkin hand in hand every step of the way till I was comfortable that you knew how to do this. This was a seasoned investigator who should have known how to manage a case log book. Should have known how to manage cases. I and with the Lieutenant prior to me I, I, I was given no indication that theres a need to babysit. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: And so I, I didnt. Right. I, I took you at your word that this is what youre tellin me. What is, what is the Lieutenants job with a, uh, when youre supervising at the SVU a seasoned Detective Sergeant? What is the Lieutenants job or responsibility? BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: To ensure that shes doin her job or he doin her, her job. And if theyre not doin their job, do you think that you have some responsibility there? BRANDIMARTE: Of course. Look.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: I mean they can tell you theyre doin their job all year long. At, at, at the end of the day, ultimately, uh, you know Im the Commander for that unit so there is some culpability and theres no way for me to explain that theres not. LEGER: LICKING: Alright, have you? Im sorry, I, I wanted to discuss. Um, okay, yeah, one of the other, um, questions that was, that was brought up was, um, when the Detectives of the SVU when we took on El Mirage and that type of thing, um, you mentioned at least it had been kind of a repeated either gripe or concern of the Detectives sayin hey, weve got all this extra stuff from El Mirage. We dont have any extra bodies. Um, hey, you mentioned that hey, you know SVU wasnt the only one that was taking on an additional burden and a lot of the other Detectives were as well. Um, where did, where did that concern go from there, do you know? I mean at that point were, did you let Captain Whitney know that it was a concern for the Detectives there or what, what happened at that point? BRANDIMARTE: I dont specific-, uh, I dont specifically recall drafting a memo. Uh, again, where are you gonna get body from? Uh, I do know that there were conversations with the Captain, uh, with Chief Knight. Um, where do you get body from? LEGER: Do you specifically having a conversation with Captain Whitney in regard to the Detectives complaints that there wasnt enough bodies and there were too many cases due to the El Mirage cases?
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: I, I, specifically, recall? No. Okay. Um, again, I am very good about. I have this belief if, if I work for you and Im havin a problem, I tell you that takes the onus off of me. So if I was made aware of a problem, Im just assuming I talk to somebody. And I think every Captain Ive ever worked for anytime there was an issue, Im pretty good about this is what the guys are complaining about. LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: But you dont really remember if you did or not? But I dont specifically recall a specific conversation about that cause it was just such a common compliant. LEGER: O- okay. And if you would have had that conversation, do you think its likely you would remember having it? BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: LICKING: I, I, well, I you know (Chuckle) Id, Id like to think. Uh huh, okay. And, and like I said, we know its been a lot you know long time ago and that type of thing but at least it was your normal kinda m.o. that if a Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 73 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 concern was brought up you would pass it on. BRANDIMARTE: We, we, okay, the, the Lieutenants and the Captain met on a weekly basis every Monday morning at 9:00 to discuss issues within the Office or within the division. Uh, do I recall every specific meeting and what we talked about? No. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: Okay. Uh, but I do remember talking about a lot of different things. Do you ever remember hearing any direction or any maybe not direction but anything from Captain Whitney about that problem the additional cases and not enough staff? BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: LICKING: LEGER: No. Okay. Alright. Um, is there anything else we need to talk? Um, there was one other question. It was about the RMS. You said you werent really functional with it. BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: Right. And I guess the question is that being the Lieutenant there, do you think you should have been functional with it? You should have understood it Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 74 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 more than what you, what you did at the time? BRANDIMARTE: LEGER: LICKING: LEGER: LICKING: LEGER: LICKING: LEGER: LICKING: Yes. Okay, but just before you go over Policies, take a break? Okay. I dont know where youre at on. Okay, uh, did you have anything else? I dont have anything else Okay. Uh, well be right back. at this point. Take, take another quick break right now. Uh, time out is, uh, about 11:20. Make sure not to trip over anything. (Long pause) LICKING: Uh, time in, uh, 11:20. Uh, okay, L-T really just have, uh, one Policy to go over with you and, uh, then well get you outta here. But, um, and, uh, MCSO Policy GB-2, um, number seven. Im just gonna have you just kinda read that off there where, where its highlighted. (Pause)
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Okay. Okay, uh, basically that Policy, um, pretty much defines this particular Policy and this is, uh, CP-2.29.B3. Um, and if, if youll just kinda, kinda read that there, um, yeah, obviously, with that such a brass Policy to begin with. Um, nobody even ever likes the wording of that. Im just gonna ask you basically based on, uh, the, the GB Policy, do you feel that as a Lieutenant, um, that you violated that Policy with your supervisory style back when you, um, supervised the SVU? BRANDIMARTE: (Sigh) (Pause) Based on my knowledge and experience at the time, I dont; however, in retrospect and the things Ive learned as I gained more experience, I can see where yes, that wouldnt have been acceptable. LICKING: LEGER: LICKING: Okay. Um, I dont have anything else. Do you have anything else? Huh? No, I dont have anything else. Okay. Um, uh, we kinda talked about this on the phone, uh, when we were settin this interview up that at the end you, um, are entitled to five minutes. Um, you dont have to if you feel that everything was said in here, um, we can, we can let it go at that. But youre entitled to make, uh, any type of clarification statements if you want. Um, if me or Joe said something and it wasnt correct and, and you remember that and you wanna clarify that, um, thats the time to do that or if you just wanna make any other statements. Um, it wont be like a question and answer thing. Its just your time to have the floor and basically say whatever you want so.
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 BRANDIMARTE: Yeah, you know, uh, theres nothin else to say really, uh, you know. I think you look back and, and you, you know you have regrets and I, phew (sound). It just could have been handled a lot differently so. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Okay, anything else? No. Okay, alright. Uh, thats the end of the interview and it is, uh, approximately 11:27. Will you turn that off? LEGER: LICKING: Yeah. Okay, thanks. Okay, and while hes turnin that off, um, your emails that you (File four) (Pause) LICKING: Okay, time in is about, uh, 11:40. Uh, this is in regards to IA case 08-0080. Sergeant Brad Licking, 1122. LEGER: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: Joe LeGer. And? Hank Brandimarte. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 77 of 81
LICKING:
Okay, um, as we were leaving, um, after the last portion of our, uh, interview, um, we raised some concerns and I felt that it was appropriate for you know at least that information to be, um, transcribed to be a part of the report so
Um hum. what Im gonna do is just kinda turn the floor back over to you and, uh, this will just be a continuation of your five minutes. You certainly didnt use that you know at the end of the last interview. So Im just gonna open up the floor to you.
BRANDIMARTE:
Okay. Um, you know as youre thinking about you know, uh, Command responsibility those kinda things, um, whats written on paper is truly what should be done. However, in looking back at the situation, uh, and my belief that she was, Kim was a seasoned investigator, uh, one of the things and, and I had also mentioned that her attitude and demeanor at times was very, uh, demanding or overbearing and, and I will provide another example of that. Um, one of the things that always, um, was a concern in the back of my mind was her relationship to, uh, Chief Terry Young. And in retrospect, its possible that I could have ridden her a little harder, made more demands, uh, requested more things from her. Uh, but my concern was any potential repercussions, uh, from a higher level for inappropriately mistreating someones fianc/soon to be spouse, uh, and it makes it difficult to, to supervise someone like that.
And an example Ill give you is we had a lead on, um, a sex offender who was stealing panties and kinda doin a weeny wagon thing in Glendale. This particular individual applied for a job with the Sheriffs Office so we received a lead from pre-employment services. Once we determined what was goin on, I directed Kim to contact Glendale to see if they had any cases of this individuals apartment complex, which they did. So we invited the Glendale Detective down to sit in with a follow up interview, uh, and he got the information he needed to proceed with his case. Uh, what they had decided was they were wantin to catch this individual in the act of you know doing whatever he was gonna do, so she asked permission for them to do an overnight stake out which I authorized. I get a call at 1:00 in the morning, uh, and she was excited where she said well, Glendales out here. And I said and whats the problem with that? Well, this is our case. And I said, I thought we had established that this was a Glendale case once we confirmed that this information was valid to their case. Uh, and I had instructed her to turn it over. Uh, she said well, we had talked about that but I wanna catch this guy. And I said this isnt our case. Why would you you know? If you wanted to follow up with it but if Glendales out there, theyre obviously wantin to follow up with it. And she demanded and I mean, literally, I demand that you call their supervisor and tell them to go home, which made me kinda laugh, uh, at the time cause I thought it was a, a, a unreasonable request. Its their apartment complex. Its in their jurisdiction. Of course, they wanna catch their bad guy so it was duplicate, duplicative effort. So I told her you need to get with a Glendale supervisor and work it together or you can go home. We dont need to be out there, so I ended the detail once I found out the Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 79 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 other, uh, issue was there. Again, thats just another example how she, although she was a Sergeant, she carried herself as if she were the Deputy Chief. Now on another occasion, uh, I walk in. She has a large crock pot with, uh, barbeque beef in it, which I thought was funny because we werent havin a pot luck so I asked her about it. And she said well, this is for Terry. And I said well, whats, whats for Terry? Well, hes leaving for a weekend retreat on Dave Hendershotts boat, which was commonplace at the time. You know as a supervisor when you piece all these things together, you worry about okay, if I, if I write her up or if I transfer her, whats the repercussion to me? And I think it has been established, um, there, there is, there was that was the culture of the organization at the time, which has since changed, uh, but it certainly its a real fear to hold a subordinate accountable whos connected, married to a Chief whos connected to the Deputy Chief. And I, I think thats a, a, a real fear. Does that make an excuse? No, but I just think that its important to note that interdynamics between people when youre trying to hold somebody accountable for substandard performance versus how is this gonna affect my career in the long run? Um, I that thats all I can explain. Uh, you know I, I had to believe based on what she was tellin me and what she knew and who she, uh, uh, referred to as a resource that what she was tellin me was the truth and, uh, I just you know I could have pushed her, but I just didnt know how it would impact me. Subsequently, uh, you know its one of those regrets that you have that that you try to see a bigger picture and its not always as clear as you think it is. So I just thought that was important to note that, uh, while you could argue that that, uh, you know I failed on Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. J. LeGer, A5259 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: May 20, 2011/1630 hours Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 80 of 81
MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 some level, uh, I, I think there were other issues at play within the organization and, and its culture at that time. LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: BRANDIMARTE: LICKING: Okay. So. Okay. Anything else? Thats it. Okay. Thanks for comin back on up. Uh, time out is gonna be, uh, 12:47. Im sorry, 11:47.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Interview with Lieutenant Brandimarte, S0833 May 4, 2011

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Okay. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 52 of 81

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Uh, uh, hey Brad, Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 53 of 81

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Not at all. Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #982 Page 59 of 81

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