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8050300. This is the transcript of Day 7 of the trial. See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
871 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Before: HON. LEONARD B. SAND, District Judge New York, N.Y. February 20, 2001 9:50 a.m. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. USAMA BIN LADEN, et al., Defendants. ------------------------------x S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 872 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 SAM A. SCHMIDT JOSHUA DRATEL KRISTIAN K. LARSEN Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage FREDRICK H. COHN DAVID P. BAUGH LAURA GASIOROWSKI Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali DAVID STERN DAVID RUHNKE Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed ANTHONY L. RICCO EDWARD D. WILFORD CARL J. HERMAN SANDRA A. BABCOCK Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh APPEARANCES MARY JO WHITE United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD KENNETH KARAS PAUL BUTLER Assistant United States Attorneys
23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 873 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 (Trial resumed) THE COURT: Before I bring in the jury, is there any
matter that has to be taken up? MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I just want to express to
the court and the government what I plan to do in cross-examination related to possible classified documents. don't think that the cross-examination itself is going to be an issue, but the answers of the witness may present issues, and I want to present that to the court. position in my letter last week. THE COURT: You are alerting the court to your I set forth my I
reservation of a right subsequent to the conclusion of the cross-examination of the witness to renew applications with respect to discovery or declassification of material that you have been furnished? MR. SCHMIDT: Is that your concern? Your Honor, I don't know that it would I
be appropriate to call it reserving my rights under it. raised this issue before.
and I think that that already entails some CIPA issues, and I want to make sure that there is no violation of CIPA by my questioning. THE COURT: When the parties were last before the
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court, which I believe was last Thursday morning, I restated very explicitly what I believed the procedures to be with respect to cross-examination of the witness and any reference SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 874 12kkbin1
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to material which the government stated was classified. have read those. MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Yes. Very well. We will proceed on that
You
basis, and if you have an application to make after you have completed your cross and before resumption of redirect, if there is to be any redirect, I will give you an opportunity to address the court. (Jury present) THE COURT: your holiday weekend. Good morning. I hope you all enjoyed
reading of the grand jury questioning of the defendant El Hage, and we will resume. MR. FITZGERALD: 167, line 9. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. Have you ever been to Somalia? Yes. Have you ever brought any money to Somalia? No. Do you know Abu Talha, T-A-L-H-A-A, Sudani? Yes. How do you know Abu Talha a Sudani? He was working also in the same company in Sudan. Your Honor, we are starting at page
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"Q. "A.
What did he do for Bin Laden's company in the Sudan? Different jobs. He was a driver and he was marketing
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 875 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 inside Sudan for the different products. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. And did he fight in Afghanistan? I don't remember. I don't know.
Did he do any military work for Bin Laden? I don't know. Do you know if Abu Talha a Sudani knew Azmarai? I don't know. Did he know Abu Hajer? Yes. How do you know Abu Talha knew Abu Hajer? We all were in the same company at the same time in
Khartoum. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. Did you work on the same floor? It is only one floor. Did Abu Talha ever go to Somalia, to your knowledge? I don't know. Did you ever hear about Abu Talha going to Somalia? No. Did you ever hear anyone indicate that Usama Bin Laden
was responsible for the US military people killed in Somalia in 1993? "A. "Q. In his last statement on the CNN, he said so. Did you ever hear anyone else indicate that before?
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"A. "Q.
No. Did you ever know if Abu Talha ever went to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 876
12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Philippines? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. No. Did you ever go to the Philippines? No. Did you ever move weapons from one country to another? No. Outside the United States, had you ever moved weapons
within a country? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. No. Even a gun? Even a gun. You carried a gun in Pakistan, right? Yes. You carried a gun in Afghanistan? Yes. Did you carry guns anywhere else? In the States, in Arizona. How about the Sudan? No, never. Have you ever carried explosives anywhere in the world? No. Have you ever paid money to someone, understanding that
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"Q.
You had a financial transaction with Bin Laden in the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 877
12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 summer. When was the last financial transaction you had with
Bin Laden before the money he sent to you for the malaria control project? "A. There was only two times that he sent money. One time it
was $7,000, and this last time was $10,000. "Q. "A. "Q. "A "Q. "A. "Q. And what did he send you the $7,000 for? Also a project. And what project was that? The needy people in Mombasa. In Mombasa? Yes. Who was the person -- did you take the money from Bin
Laden and give it to the needy people in Mombasa? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. Q. It was transferred to my account in Kenya. Then what did you do with the money? Transferred it for the needy people in Mombasa. And who did you transfer it to? I went myself, me and Haroun, we went to Mombasa. And so you got a wire transfer from Usama Bin Laden to
your bank account in Kenya for $7,000 and then you took the cash out? "A. "Q. "A. Yes. And brought it to Mombasa? Yes.
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"Q.
Who did you give it to in Mombasa? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 878
12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "A. "Q. The needy people at the special event, Islamic event. Even needy people have names. Do you have a name? You
gave it to someone. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A mean. "Q. "A. "Q. Didn't give it to one individual. You handed it out? Yes. Who were the partisans in Mombasa? Excuse me? The partisans in Mombasa? The partisans? I am sorry, I don't know what does that
What does the word mean? Were there people fighting in Mombasa? Fighting? No.
tourists on the beach? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. No, not against tourists. Who were the attacks against? It was ethnic fighting. And who was fighting in the ethnic fighting in Mombasa? I don't know who was it. The government doesn't know.
Just says that bandits were attacking certain localities and killing people. behind it. "Q. And when was it that you brought the $7,000 down to They don't even know what is the motive
Mombasa?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 879 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. Sometime in 1996. I can't recall.
You just brought $7,000 in what currency? Kenyan shillings. Kenyan shillings? Yes. How did you hand it out? People showed up and you --
It is a special. And the end of Ramadan? In Ramadan, and we have two times every year. Did you keep a record of who you gave the money to? No. Just depended on Haroun is known by the people over
there. "Q. Do you know any of the names of the people in Mombasa
that Haroun indicated contact with in order to carry out this giving away of money? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. I know someone called Sheikh Sayyid. Sheikh Sayyid? Yes. Where is Sheikh Sayyid from? Kenya. Any other names? He is the famous person that I know over there.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 880 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. Do you know a Khalid over there in Mombasa? Khalid? It is either his son or his son-in-law. Sheikh Sayyid?
Was there anything illegal about the $7,000 that you and
Haroun brought down to Mombasa? "A. "Q. "A "Q Anything illegal? Yes. No. Anything wrong with the $7,000 that you and Haroun
brought down to Mombasa? "A. I don't understand. I don't think there was anything
illegal about it. "Q. Were you at all worried about that $7,000 that you and
Haroun brought down to Mombasa? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. No. Why should we be worried?
the government authorities, was Haroun worried about his contacts with the people in Mombasa? "A. I don't know. I wasn't around when he knew about this.
I was in Pakistan then. "Q. Did Haroun tell you that he broke off all contact with
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 881 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 newspapers talking because he was afraid? "A. "Q. "A. He didn't tell me that. In fact, he went to Mombasa.
Hasn't come back since, correct? He came back when I came back. He went to Mombasa before
I came back, and then we -- when he knew I came back, he came to Nairobi. "Q. "A. Where was he staying in Nairobi? I don't know, but I believe he would stay in the hotel in
Eastleigh. "Q. Where would he usually stay when he worked for you all
that time in Nairobi? "A. "Q. With me in my house. When you last came back to Nairobi and he met him at your
friend's house, where did he stay then? A. I don't know where he stayed, but he probably in a hotel,
like I said, in Eastleigh. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. But he no longer stayed at your house? No, he was afraid. Why was he afraid? Because he heard that the FBI people came over. Now, when you were in Arizona, you knew Mubarak al
Dousri? "A. "Q "A. Yes. D-O-U-S-R-I? D-O-O-R-Y. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
882 12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "Q. And did Mubarak el Doory from Arizona turn out later to
work for Usama Bin Laden? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. Yes, in his agricultural company in Sudan. And when did he work for Usama Bin Laden in the Sudan? In '92. And was he still working for Usama Bin Laden when you
left the Sudan in 1994? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. Yes. When was the last time you spoke with him? That year, '94. When was the last time you saw him? That same year. When you worked for Usama Bin Laden, in the Sudan, how
much were you paid? "A. "Q. "A "Q. "A. "Q "A. "Q. "A. $1,200. Per? Per month. For How long did you work for him? Almost two years. What banks did he keep his money at? Bank el Shamar. Any other banks? I think he had accounts in different banks, but I only
recall Bank Shamar. "Q. Did he keep any accounts in your name? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 883
12kkbin1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q "A. "Q. No, I had my own account. The one at Girocredit in Vienna? No, no, in Sudan. Your name? Yes. That was for your money? Yes. Do you know Mohamed M-A-S-A-R-I? Yes. Have you ever met him? No. Do you know where Mohamed al Masari lives? He lives in England. Do you know if he works with Bin Laden? I don't. Do you know Saad al Faqih, F-A-Q-I-H? I don't know him but I know he works with al Masari. Are you familiar with the Committee of the Defense of
Legitimate Rights, CDLR? "A. "Q. "A. I heard of it. Do you know what its relationship is to Bin Laden? No, but they both are positioned against the Saudi
government. "Q. "A. Do you know if Bin Laden is a member of CDLR? I don't. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 884 12kkbin1
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"Q. "A "Q "A "Q "A "Q "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q.
Do you know Dr. Abdullah Muhammad Yusuf? No. Do you know Inb al Qattab? Ibn? Ibn al Qattab? Al Qattab. Ibn al Qattab? I heard the name.
Where did you hear it? In Pakistan. From whom? Different people, I can't recall whom exactly. Have you ever met him? I don't remember meeting him. Do you know Assadalla, A-S-S-A-D-A-L-L-A, al Sindi? Yes. Where did you meet Assadalla al Sindi? I never met him, but I heard he works for Bin Laden. What does he do for Bin Laden? I think business in Pakistan. Business where? In Pakistan. Pakistan? Yes. Does he know Azmarai? I don't know. He probably does.
Have you ever met Assadalla al Sindi yourself? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 885
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No, never. Do you know Mohamed Jamal Khalifah? No. Do you know Mohamed Amin al Sanani, S-A-N-A-N-I? No. Can you tell us what the al Baraka files are,
B-A-R-A-K-A? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. Al Baraka files? Yes. I don't recall this name. Do you recall maintaining the al Baraka files yourself? No, never. Now, you have told this grand jury the last time you
dealt with Usama Bin Laden the last time you worked for him was 1994. "A. "Q. "A. "Q. Yes. That is the last time you have seen him? Yes. I am going to ask you again so that the record is crystal
clear that you have been warned, that to lie is punishable as perjury which you can spend five years in jail. I want to be I am
crystal clear you understood what my questions are. going to ask you again. "A. "Q. Yes.
Have you seen Usama Bin Laden anyplace in the world in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 886
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1995, 1996, or 1997? "A. "Q. "A. "Q. I haven't seen him anywhere after I left Sudan. And after you left Sudan in what year? '94. So it is your testimony that you have not seen Usama Bin
Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996, or 997? "A. "Q. Yes. And you have not told anyone that you have seen Usama Bin
Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996 or 1997? "A. "Q. Yes. I would ask the grand jurors, the foreperson, if we could I don't
know if we will have to follow up any further, but if he could see stay under subpoena and if we need to call him back, the foreperson can contact us and we will reach out and make the appropriate arrangements. "The foreperson: "Q. Do you understand?
the day, and if we decide we need further testimony from you, we will schedule it at a mutually convenient time at our expense. But if we need to bring you back, we don't need to
send someone to hand you a subpoena, we can call you up and say please come back again. "A. "Q. Yes. Does the foreperson so direct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 887 12kkbin1 Do you understand that?
"The Foreperson:
You understood?
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"A
"Q.
like to change the answer to right now, this is your chance to do so. "A "Q Are we going to go over the questions? For whatever reason, if you came in here and told any
lies, this is your chance to tell us you would like to take back an answer. Otherwise, the record will be sealed, and for So I am giving
any false statements you could be prosecuted. you that answer. "A "Q No. OK, thank you. "(Witness excused.) "(Time noted, 3:44 p.m. "(Colloquy follows.) "Certificate.
I, Carey-Ann Rosenblatt hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript, to the best of my skill and ability from my stenographic notes of this proceeding. Carey-Ann Rosenblatt, acting grand jury reporter." THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Al-Fadl will be recalled to the
MR. FITZGERALD:
stand for cross-examination. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 888 12kkbin1
THE COURT:
Very well.
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witness has testified on direct and has been cross-examined on behalf of the defendants except the defendant El Hage, whose attorney was ill. Mr. Schmidt has rejoined us and we will
proceed then with the cross-examination on behalf of the defendant El Hage with the witness Jamal Ahmed Mohamed al-Fadl. JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL, recalled as a witness by the government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: THE COURT: Is there a stand-by interpreter? Yes. Ms. Grant went to get the We can start
without her, but Ms. Grant went to get her. MR. SCHMIDT: interpreter present. MR. FITZGERALD: In case she is in the ladies' room, Your Honor, I would prefer to have the
I don't know if we could borrow one of the interpreters from the back to start, if she is in the ladies' room. THE COURT: Is there another interpreter available? Mr. Coudoni seems to be coming.
MR. FITZGERALD:
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 889 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHMIDT:
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Q. A. Q. A. Q.
Mr. Al-Fadl, did I pronounce that correctly? What? Did I pronounce the name correctly? Yes. You began working in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden, is that
correct? A. Q. Correct. What was the year that you first began doing work in the
Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden? A. Q. I believe end of '89, the first time I went to Sudan. That was the first time after going to Afghanistan that
you went to the Sudan, is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. You were born and raised in the Sudan, correct? Correct. You went from Afghanistan to Sudan at the bequest of
Mr. Bin Laden, is that right? A. Q. Yes. What was your role? What did you do when you first went
to the Sudan in 1989? A. I remember we, me and other brother we went over there and
we start to rent houses and establish companies for the group. Q. In the Sudan back in 1989, was property required to be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 890 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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Q.
1989? A. Yes. Some property buy with money and some property from
the government. MR. SCHMIDT: question, please. Q. In 1989, were foreigners allowed to own property in the (Interpreted) Could you please interpret this
Sudan? A.
I don't know the government rule, but we have agreement That's how he got the
names of Sudanese, isn't that correct? A. Q. Yes, under my name. Are you aware that the Sudanese law required that property
be held in the name of Sudanese businesses or persons? A. Well, I rent it and some lands I bought it, and I think
held under the name of Sudanese or Sudanese businesses? (Interpreted) A. (Through interpreter) Investment law permits that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 891 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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Q. A. Q.
Permits what? To buy land or houses or farms. Under the names of Sudanese persons or businesses, is that
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correct? A. Q. Under Sudanese, but for foreign people, no. For foreign use, but under the names of Sudanese persons
or businesses, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. How long did you remain in the Sudan when you first went
over in 1989 to purchase or lease properties or start businesses? A. I don't remember exactly, but I back and forth between
Sudan and Pakistan, different times. Q. What year was it when you moved back to the Sudan with
Mr. Bin Laden? A. When he come back from Pakistan to Sudan, I didn't come
with him. Q. A. You remained in Afghanistan? Yes. I went Sudan and I come back to Pakistan, because
once in a while I go back and I tell him what going on in Sudan. Q. A. When did you return to the Sudan to live? Like I tell you, I go back and forth between Sudan and
Pakistan. Q. There came a time that you stopped going back and forth SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 892 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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from Afghanistan and Sudan and you stopped and you started to live in Sudan again. A. Yes. When was that?
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Pakistan, I come back again and in '92 I went back to Pakistan and I come back again. Q. A. Q. A. Q. In 1991, how long did you go back to Pakistan? Not more than two weeks. In 1992, how long did you go to Pakistan? It could be week or 10 days. So other than these short trips, you lived in the Sudan,
is that correct? A. Q. Correct, yes. When was it that you started to live in the Sudan, not
counting the short trips to Pakistan? A. It's hard to say because I'm always traveling. I live in
Sudan but always I go outside to Egypt, to Pakistan, to other countries, and I come back to Sudan. Q. Did Mr. Bin Laden buy you a house when you returned to the
Sudan? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. What year did he buy you a house? I think that's in '92. And that was for you and your wife, is that correct? Yes. Between 1989 and end of 1991, what jobs were you doing for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 893 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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Mr. Bin Laden? A. I switched from other things. Like sometime I work from So I
one, sometimes I work -- I don't have like one job. switch from different companies, different jobs.
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Q.
Are you telling us that you worked for one company for one
week and then you went to another company for another week and another association? A. Yes sometimes tell me to do that job, go to Qadarif. I do
the trip. Q.
point that you worked in an office at McNimr Street, is that correct? A. Q. That's correct, yes. When did you actually start sitting in an office and doing
work in an office? A. Since the first time I went to Sudan end of '89 and we
established Wadi al Aqiq company. Q. After you started the company, helped start the companies,
helped lease property, were you based out of the office at McNimr Street? A. Q. Yes, I have office over there. Were you paid a salary through one of the companies in
McNimr Street? A. From Laden International Company and Taba Investment, and
also I got another salary from the group. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 894 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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Q.
for -A. Q. I work for all the companies. Mr. Al-Fadl, please let me finish my question. No matter
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which company you were actually doing work for, you were being paid from the Taba or Laden International, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. So if you went on a trip for one of the agricultural
companies, you still would get the check, or the money from Taba, say, is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. In 1989, you purchased, you helped others lease property,
bought property, started businesses; is that your testimony? A. Q. Yes. Other than doing these trips that you said, what other
kind of work did you do in 1989, 1990, and 1991? A. Q. A. One time I did trip to Egypt from Pakistan. What else? I work inside Sudan. I went to the Damazine Camp, over I
there.
Mustafa's guesthouse. Q. Did there come a time that you became an assistant to a
person that you call Abu Makkee, whose real name is Madani Al SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 895 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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Tayyib? A. Q. Yes, Madani al Tayyib Abu Fadhl al Makkee. I am going to call him Madani Tayyib. You know what I am
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Q. A. Q. A. Q.
When did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib? First time I see him? Is this your question?
When did you become a business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib? First time I work with him in Afghanistan in '89. Mr. al Tayyib was running one of the companies in the
Sudan, is that correct? A. He is a supervisor for the whole business in Sudan, when
he moved to Sudan. Q. A. Q. Did you become an assistant to him in the Sudan? Yes, I work under him. What year did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib in
the Sudan? A. Q. Maybe this area of '91. Prior to becoming the business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib,
did you serve, other than what you mentioned, any other function in the Bin Laden companies? A. Q. A. Yes, I do other stuff. For example? Like sometimes they tell me go to Pakistan, take this
message. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 896 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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Q. A. Q.
OK. I go Pakistan. In the Sudan -THE COURT: He hadn't finished his answer when you Sometimes --
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A.
me business work, sometimes he tell me go get training. Sometimes he tell me those new people, go interview him. Sometimes he tell me go to Abu Abdallah Lubnani, we need Islamic training. So whatever he tell me, he is my manager
business, and at the same time he is my emir under the group. Q. I am saying, between 1989, first time you came back to the
Sudan and to the time that you became the special assistant to Mr. al Tayyib, have you basically told us every kind of work that you did in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden? A. Q. Yes. How long did you work as a special assistant to Mr. al
Tayyib? MR. FITZGERALD: A. Like I tell you -THE COURT: Just a moment. Just objection to form. Objection to form.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 897 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 special. THE COURT: To the special. Objection as to your THE COURT: Yes.
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witness is not familiar with. Q. Have you described everything that you did in Sudan from
the time that you returned to the Sudan in 1989 until the time you became an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib? A. Q. Yes. When you were working for Mr. al Tayyib, did you handled
commercial business? A. Q. Yes. Could you tell us some of the products that were involved
in the commercial business. A. I arrange guesthouses, I buy farms and license for the I help people for traveling.
companies. Q.
Tayyib and Taba were trying to sell or grow to sell? A. Yes. We sell sugar and palm oil and soap, we exchange We buy peanuts and
that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 898 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, in Damazine. Where were the tractors obtained? Could you repeat the question. Where were the tractors obtained from? The tractors? Yes.
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A. Q. A. Q. A.
In the farm, in Damazine. Where were the tractors purchased from? Where we buy from? Yes. I remember Abu Rida al Suri, he buy them from
Czechoslovakia. Q. Were there trucks used, both the construction company and
the agricultural companies? A. We have contract transportation. It's a company just run
the tractors. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Were the trucks purchased from Russia? Yes, from, I forget the name of the company now. Maz? Yes. Is that the name? Yes. Who went to purchase the trucks? I don't remember, but I think Abu Rida al Suri and
Abdallah Lubnani. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 899 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Q.
Laden's companies was sesame, is that right? A. Q. Yes. And there was great effort made to sell the sesame
throughout the world, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. There was also white corn grown, is that correct?
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
Correct. Peanuts were grown, is that correct? Correct. Sunflowers were grown, is that correct? Correct. Wheat was grown, is that correct? She help me. Yes. I don't know what that mean. (Interpreted)
Q.
And there was a whole bunch of fruits and vegetables grown Blessed
from one of the other companies, is that right? Fruits, is that it? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Was there olive oil produced? No. Was there other kinds of oil produced? Yes, from sesame and peanuts.
right, '92? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 900 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A. Q.
'93, '94. Part of your job and other people's job when you were
working for Mr. al Tayyib was trying to find markets for these items, is that right? A. Q. Correct. And later on the items also included skins from the
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A. Q.
Correct. There were fava beans, is that right? Yes. There was also -- now let's talk a little bit about the
different companies that formed Mr. Bin Laden's enterprises. A. Q. OK. There were some local companies, like a bakery, is that
right? A. Q. A. Q. What? He had a bakery? Yes. He had the fruit and vegetable export company, is that
correct? A. Q. Yes. He had a Bank of Zoological Resource? (Interpreted) A. Q. Yes. That was to basically raise cattle? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 901 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
A. Q.
Yes, make good genes. And he invested quite a bit of money to try and raise good
cattle and make hybrids. A. Q. A. Correct. How many people worked at the fruit and vegetable company? It's run by somebody, his name Motasem al Saudi, but I
don't know how many people. Q. Do you know how many people worked at the Bank of
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Zoological Resource? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Do you know how many people worked at the bakery? No. How many people worked at Laden International? Maybe around 25 in that office in McNimr Street. How many people worked at the Altehmar al Mabuaraka,
A-L-T-H-E-M-A-R, A-L, M-A-B-U-A-R-A-K-A? A. A lot of people. They got few people in office in
Khartoum and people in the farm at Damazine. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. How about Blessed Fruits? Yes. Do you know how many? No. What about Taba? Taba and Laden and Qudurat Transportation, 25 people work A lot of people worked there?
in office. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 902 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Q.
the business in the office. Q. A. Q. They manufactured sweets and honey, is that right? Yes. The factory in Kameen, not in Khartoum.
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
Yes. Mother company. How many people worked in just the offices involving
with Wadih El Hage, is that correct? A. Q. Could you repeat. The name Wadih El Hage has nothing to do with Wadi al
Aqiq, is that correct? A. No, I believe it's valley in Saudi Arabia belong to Bin
Laden. Q. A. Q. How many people worked at the tanning company? I don't know. It's a lot of people. It's a big tannery.
there? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 903 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
A. Q. A. Q.
Correct. How many people worked at the furniture company? A lot. At the construction company, al Hijra? That was over 600
people who worked there, right? A. Q. A. Q. Or could be more. Could be more. And they built a number of roads.
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
that right? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. That was one of the major projects that was here. Yes. It's a major history in Sudan.
Sudan, international sanctions. A. Q. Yes, I hear that. You know that made trade more difficult from the Sudan to
countries in Europe and North America, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. Therefore it reduced the value of the Sudanese pound. Correct. So it was important for the companies to try to do what
they can to export products that they produced into Europe and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 904 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
America, is that right? A. Q. Correct. To do that, sometimes they had to ship their products
through other countries, is that right? A. Q. Yes, correct. One of the most popular companies to ship these items was
Cyprus, is that right? A. Q. Correct. Because that was a free port, is that correct?
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
business activity in Cyprus; isn't that right? A. I believe we got guesthouse but we got company, office
running the business. Q. That is because if you exported through Cyprus, the value
of the product would increase tremendously. A. Q. Yes, make more money. You have told us that tractors were purchased in
Czechoslovakia and trucks were purchased in Russia, is that right? A. Q. Correct. One of the reasons that they were purchased in the eastern
European countries was that it was much cheaper to purchase items in the eastern European countries than they would be in the western European countries or in the United States, is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 905 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
that correct? A. Q. Yes, cheaper, and they give them more time for paying. So for the business enterprises involved in the Bin Laden
companies, there was a lot of travel not only to western Europe but to eastern Europe and other countries where items could be purchased cheaper. A. Q. A. Q. Correct. You are Sudanese, is that correct? Yes. You had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
or even to the Far East was somewhat difficult for you because you had a Sudanese passport, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. People who had either European, western European passports
or American passports were table able to travel much easier, is that correct? A. Q. Yes, much, much easier. Therefore it was less expensive for them to travel, is
that right? A. Q. Yes. They were able to do business faster because of those
passports, is that correct? A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 906 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Q.
because they were able to travel easily. A. Q. Correct. For commercial purposes to either buy goods like the
tractors or to sell goods like sesame and the skins and those items, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. Sudan is a poor country, isn't it? Very poor. The average income is about $50 a month for the average
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Sudanese? A. Q. No, I think it's much less. And there are a lot of things that aren't produced in
Sudan if you want to run a business that you have to purchase outside of the Sudan, is that right? A. Q. Yes. So either you or Abu Rida or other people -- withdrawn.
Abu Rida had an American passport, didn't he? A. Q. A. Q. I hear that, yes. Do you know who Abu Khadija is? I think he got German citizen. People like him would travel to eastern Europe and western
Europe to try to get the best things that were needed that had to be imported into the Sudan, is that right? A. Right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 907 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Q. A. Q.
There was cement that was needed? Yes. There was asphalt that was needed. There was fertilizer
for the farms that were needed. A. Q. Yes. People also would come up with ideas, maybe we can --
withdrawn. Taba was a company that sold things inside of the Sudan, is that right? A. Q. Yes, the local stuff. And for it to make money, you would have to get it at a
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
lower price and then sell it at a higher price, is that right? A. Q. Correct. And then, since the Sudan is a very poor country, you have
to make sure you get a real low price for these items because otherwise you will not be able to sell them in Sudan, is that right? A. Q. Correct. So part of the travel of these people who had either
European or American passports was to see if they could do trading, buying something in another country that is less expensive and selling it in the Sudan at a relatively cheap price to make a profit, is that right? A. Q. Correct. There came a time that you left working as an assistant SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 908 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
for Mr. al Tayyib and you became, you started to work for Abu Rida, R-I-D-A, is that right? A. Q. Yes. Since you started working as an assistant sometime in 1992
for Mr. al Tayyib, you worked about a year for Mr. al Tayyib as his assistant, is that correct? A. Q. It could be more. When do you think that you went to work for Abu Rida as
his assistant? A. I worked with Abu Rida and I come back to al Tayyib. So I
I go do
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
other stuff and go back to Tayyib. Q. A. Did you work about seven months for Mr. Abu Rida? Not in his office for seven months, but any time he want
me to go, I do the job for him and I come back. Q. At the time that you went, you were freed up to work for
Mr. Abu Rida when Mr. El Hage came to the Sudan, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I don't know what you talk about, Hage. Mr. El Hage, Wadih El Hage who is sitting over there. Yes. He came near the end of 1992, is that right? Yes. And you helped train him to do the trading aspects that
you were doing for Mr. al Tayyib, is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 909 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
A. Q.
Correct. Once he was trained, you were able to do some work for
Mr. Abu Rida, is that right? A. Q. Yes, you are right. In fact, Mr. El Hage -- withdrawn. Abu Rida was doing a lot of traveling because he had an American passport, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. After Mr. El Hage was trained about the commodities, he
started doing a lot of traveling instead of Abu Rida, is that right? A. Yes.
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
country, out of the Sudan quite a bit doing the traveling that Abu Rida was doing before. A. Q. Correct. And you were working mostly for Abu Rida at that time. If
there was nothing in particular you might go back and help out Mr. al Tayyib, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I go back to Tayyib or I go to other stuff. There was also an Abu Dijana who came in. Yes, Abu Dijana Abdallah al Yemeni. And he came in and was trained by you as well, is that
right? A. With Sayyid el Masry and Bushra Yasin. Other people also
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 910 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 train him. Q. So he was not traveling that much, he was mostly in the
office, is that right? A. Q. Correct. So by early 1993, Mr. El Hage was doing a lot of traveling
out of the country concerning selling things like the corn, the sesame seeds, hibiscus, right? A. Q. Yes. And other items that they were trying to produce in the
Sudan, is that right? A. Q. Correct. He was also doing a lot of traveling to obtain more
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
tractors, is that right? A. Q. Correct. And other items like asphalt or cement or pricing other
items that might be useful to make money in the Sudan, is that right? A. Q. Correct. So he wasn't around that much in 1993 because he was doing
most of the traveling for Taba and Laden International, is that right? A. Q. Correct. In fact, after you trained Mr. El Hage, you didn't see him You were doing different things,
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 911 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A. Q. Yes, you are right. I want to mention some other items that Mr. El Hage and
other workers at Laden International or Taba were involved either trying to obtain or sell. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes in Kassala City. Butcher equipment? Yes. Canned mushrooms and canned tomatoes? Yes. Cement? Yes, from outside, you are right, we bring it from (Translated) Bananas?
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
I don't remember this. There was machines that needed to be purchased to crush
rock? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. For the Qudurat Construction? Yes. Yes. There was discussions about purchasing iron? Yes. Insecticides? Yes. Lathing machines? Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 912 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
Lemons? Yes. Olives? I don't remember olives. Raisins, nuts, hazelnuts and almonds? I don't remember. From Tajikistan? Does that ring a bell?
I really don't remember. There was discussion about building a rice mill? Yes. There was always businesses involving sugar, is that
right? A. Correct.
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
The sugar was produced both inside Sudan, right? Yes. There was also discussions of importing sugar as well? Yes, local and import, yes. And there was talk about wood, obtaining wood from Turkey? Yes, I remember. There was an awful lot of business going on in the Bin
Laden businesses, wasn't there? A. Q. Yes. After Mr. El Hage and Mr. Dijana came in, working in Taba,
there came a time about a year later in 1994 where you left your employments with Mr. Bin Laden, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 913 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
No, I don't leave the group in 1994. Didn't you go work for a research institute? A delegation office. Didn't you call that a research institute? We call it delegation office. Wasn't that a Sudanese company that was not affiliated
with Mr. Bin Laden? A. This is, it's office helped the people when the other
groups come to Sudan, we interview them and we make sure they are good people. Q. Do you know the name of Amin Hassan Omer, A-M-I-N, It may be O-M-A-R. Amin Hassan Omer.
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
President Basheer in 1994? A. Could you repeat the question. MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate that, please. Do
you know the name of the person who was the legal security adviser to President Basheer in 1994? A. Yes. His al Tayef. I don't remember his whole name but I
remember his family name al Tayef. Q. A. Didn't you go work for him in 1994? No. Delegation office, they got different manager. His
name Dr. Motrif Sadeek. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 914 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
Q.
working at the company called al Sargani. A. Q. Yes. That company was a company where all of the shareholders
were relatives of yours, is that correct? A. Sargani belong to Islamic National Front but it's owned by
me, but we use it as umbrella for other work. Q. When you use the term Islamic National Front, that was the
political party of Sudan that was in power, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. The person at that time who was the president of Sudan was
a man named Basheer, is that correct? A. Q. Could you repeat your question. The president of the country of Sudan back in 1994 was
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
President Basheer. A. Q. Correct. The person who headed the party, what you call the Islamic
National Front, was a man named al Turabi. A. Q. Correct. It was known that Mr. Al Turabi basically was the power
behind the government, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. You used Islamic National Front. Is it sometimes the
initials NIF used? A. Yes, NIF. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 915 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Q.
talking about? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Al Sargani was an NIF company, is that correct? Yes, it's umbrella company. You told us that Sheikh Sayyid el Masry came into the
offices at McNimr Street on June 9, 1993, is that correct? A. Q. I don't remember the month, but it could be June '93. You testified on direct examination not just to the month,
you gave the specific date, June -A. I don't remember now. If I say at that time, yes,
direct examination while Mr. Fitzgerald was examining you and now you don't even remember a month?
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
question, I don't remember it. Q. You left the Sudan the last time in February of 1996, is
that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, in February '96. You traveled to quite a few places. Correct. You were traveling -- first you went to Syria because that Is that right?
simply was the easiest place to go, is that right? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 916 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Q. A. Q.
You went to Jordan? Correct. You went to see a man that you said was a member of al
Qaeda, Abu Ahram. A. Q. A. Q. Abu Ahram al Urdani. He was a member of al Qaeda? Yes. You told us that you left the Sudan because you were
worried because you stole money and couldn't pay it back, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Correct. You were also concerned with the NIF, isn't that right? Correct. You spent time talking with Abu Ahram, is that right? Correct.
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q. A. Q.
You felt comfortable talking to Abu Ahram, right? Yes. He was no threat to you, was he? No. You began your journeys trying to start an opposition
party to the NIF, is that right? A. Q. I don't understand the question. Would you translate it. You tried to start an opposition
to the NIF, is that right? (Interpreted) A. Not exactly what you say. I am mad with him, but, you
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 917 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 know, I don't have money to start making group -- I don't have enough money, I make. Q. A. You didn't have enough money to start an opposition party? I don't have thinking about that. It never come in my
agents of the United States government, is that right? A. Q. Yes. You spent about 30 days or so from September and October
and November talking to agents of the United States? A. Q. Correct. In one of the conversations with these agents, didn't you
tell them that you hoped that the US government would help you establish an intellectual opposition party against the NIF? A. Yes.
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
You did not have any money when you started your travels
in February, so you were trying to raise money. A. The first thing I did in Syria, I went to United Nations,
and I tell them I have problems my government, and they give me every two weeks some money from United Nations in Syria. Q. The money was just enough to live on and not to start an
opposition party, right? A. Q. Yes, just for food and living. You were looking to raise money to support yourself and to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 918 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
form an opposition party in the Sudan, isn't that right? A. Yes, just like anybody, you know, he try to make his
country best. Q. You went to Damascus and from there you went to Jordan,
could convince the Israelis to give you money, isn't that right? A. Q. Correct. That's how much you hated the NIF, that you would go to
the Israelis. A. Q. Yes. But you didn't go to Israel, you went to Lebanon instead,
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. NIF. A. Q.
And you tried to see if you could sell a book about the
Yes. But you decided not to, because you were afraid the
publisher was a greedy person and you wouldn't get your share, right? A. Q. Yes. You went back to Damascus and put in an application for
refugee status, is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 919 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
A. Q.
Yes. You were told that was the only place you could do it
because it was the first place you went to from Sudan, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Correct. You weren't very interested in staying in Damascus. Yes. You were or were not? Would you repeat the question. Were you interested or not interested in staying in
Damascus? A. Q. A. Q. No, because there are a lot of NIF over there. You went to Asmarai in Eritrea. Correct. There there were a number of Sudanese opposition people,
is that right? A. Q. Correct. And you talked with them over there, is that right?
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
Yes. You discussed with them what the best way would be for you
to be used to help the opposition. A. Q. They ask me, yes. But nobody wanted to give you money to fund your own
opposition, did they? A. No, they say if you want to share, come work with us, you
don't have money. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 920 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Q. A. Q.
You didn't want to do that? No, I am very interested to work with them, but. You went to the Eritrean government to try to convince
them to support you, is that right? A. No, just like any Sudanese, when he go over there, he
should go to the office, support the all Sudanese opposition activity. Q. So I am just like other people.
support the opposition, you went and made videotapes and cassette tapes? A. No, just for the government, for organization human
rights. Q. But you didn't stay there, you got a trip to Saudi Arabia,
is that right? A. Q. A. Yes. You talked to the Saudi Arabians, is that right? Which Saudi Arabia?
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q. A. Q.
You talked with Saudi Arabians? Yes. Saudis, right? Yes. In Saudi Arabia, you talked more now about Mr. Bin Laden
because you knew that the Saudis were trying to stop Mr. Bin Laden, is that right? A. They was asking me so many questions and I am very happy SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 921 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
at that time to answer the questions, and one of the questions about Bin Laden. Q. Not only was one of the questions Bin Laden, you gave the
Saudis a proposal to assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, didn't you? A. Q. Well, any questions they ask me, I give them answer. So when they asked you how the best way to murder or
assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, you came up with a plan and gave it to the Saudi government, is that right? A. I don't have plan but when they ask me that question, I
give them what I know. Q. A. Q. It wasn't what you know, it was what you would do. What I know, because I was in group before. Didn't you tell the Americans when you ultimately went to
the Americans a little bit about your conversation with the Saudis? A. Q. Of course, yes. When you told them, didn't you tell the Americans that you
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Nisab group, belonging to your relative Mohammed Suda al Nalfi? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I remember that. You had a plan, isn't that right? Yes. But you ended up leaving the Saudis because they didn't
offer you any money. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 922 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
A.
somebody going to start working for you over there, and they say could be take two weeks or three weeks. And they tell me
go to the embassy, and they give me name, but I decide to go to the American Embassy. Q. Didn't you complain that they offered you no reward for
all this information? A. No, they say when that guy, he want to come in Azmarai, he
going to start with you and he want to help you. Q. Didn't you say that you were worried about the opposition
party, the particular opposition party that brought you to Saudi Arabia was going to try to take the reward for the Saudis and keep it for themselves and you not get anything; isn't that right? A. Q. At that time I work for the Sudanese group as a member. And you thought they were going to take the reward from
the Saudis that you earned, isn't that right? A. Yes, I think about that.
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
your demands you finally go as a last resort to the Americans, is that right? A. No, when I come back from Saudi Arabia, they say wait in
Azmarai two weeks or three weeks, but I decide after three days if I go to Americans maybe it's better, because Saudis they want me to work outside, they want me to go to Pakistan, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 923 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
and I tell them that's really hard. Q. You knew you were not going to work with the Saudis, is
that right? A. Yes, I tell them I know it's very hard. When they ask me
it's hard. Q. A. You didn't trust them, did you? I trust them very much but I don't trust the plan. I
don't trust what they want me to do. Q. Did you tell the American agents that you did not trust
the Saudis? A. Q. I don't trust the plan, not personally. Didn't you say flat out to the Americans, I do not trust
the Saudis? A. Q. What I mean, the plan, not the people. So you did tell the Americans that you did not trust the
Saudis but you are explaining now that that didn't mean I did not trust the Saudis, I didn't trust their plan. you say? A. There is millions of people. That not means I don't trust Is that what
20 21 22 23 24 25
government of Saudi Arabia, is that right? A. Q. Yes. I don't trust the plan.
You don't trust the government of Saudi Arabia, not the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 924
12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 people -A. No, that's not correct, because the government thousands It's hard to say that.
of people. Q.
meaning the Saudi government officials that you were dealing with? A. No, the people I saw. I saw only few peoples from the
government. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Wasn't one a minister? What? Wasn't one a minister of the government? It's few people from intelligence office. You didn't trust the Egyptians, did you? No. Not at all. No, I never work with them. If anything, anybody who was up in Afghanistan during the
Afghani jihad did not want to go trust the Egyptians, right? A. You are right.
20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
didn't trust, right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. The Yemenis you didn't trust, right? Yes. You had been to Eritrea, and you didn't trust them, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 925 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
I feel, but when I went to Americans -The Eritreans are a very poor country? Very good. Nice people but poor country? Yes. They weren't giving you a lot of money, you didn't want to
live the lifestyle of the Eritreans, did you? A. Q. A. I am not looking for money. You didn't want to stay in Syria, right? Yes, because lot of NIF membership in Syria and Syria got
great relationship. Q. A. Q. You considered going to Israel, didn't you? Yes. Bottom line, there was no other place to go to other than The last place that you were going to try to
the Americans.
get what you wanted was from the Americans, right? A. Q. Yes, I decide to go to America. When you decided to go to America, you came to them as a
Sudanese dissident, somebody who was opposing the present government in the Sudan, right?
21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
I don't understand that. When you went to see the Americans at the embassy, you
went there as a person who opposed the NIF in the Sudan, right? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 926 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross (Interpreted)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Q.
relationships with the Sudan at that time, right? A. Q. Yes. The Sudanese didn't like the Americans for what they were
doing to the Sudanese, right? A. Q. Yes. And the Americans didn't like the Sudanese, what they
thought the Sudanese were doing to the rest of the world. A. Q. Yes. When you started talking to the Americans, the Americans
weren't particularly interested in all of the political goings on in Sudan, were they? A. They ask me questions and I give them the answer and I
wait until they -Q. A. Q. What they were interested in was Mr. Bin Laden, wasn't it? Yes. You realized that very quickly into your conversation with
these Americans, didn't you? A. Q. Yes. And you knew that if you were going to get what you wanted
21 22 23 24 25
or needed from the Americans, you needed to answer their questions about Bin Laden, right? A. Could you repeat your question. MR. SCHMIDT: Q. Please translate this.
You knew very quickly that if you were going to get what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 927
12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. Yes. you wanted from the Americans, you were going to have to answer their questions about Bin Laden. (Interpreted) What I know, I work with Bin Laden nine years. It's
history. Q. You told them some things that simply were lies, is that
I work with Bin Laden nine years. Did you tell the Americans in the first or second year
that you trained with Ramzi Yusef? A. Q. Yes. Ramzi Yusef at that time was in the United States and was
going to trial for some kind of terrorist activity, right? A. No, not because that, because we in Afghanistan, I saw him
in the camp, we train, and that's right. Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, you volunteered to the Americans, saying that
you trained with Ramzi Yusef. A. No, not because he's news but because I know the guy from
Afghanistan.
22 23 24 25
Q.
Yusef, didn't you? A. Q. No. Did you know they were? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 928 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
A.
It's nine
years with those people. Q. A. Isn't it a fact that you never ever met the man? Yes, we are in -- I don't remember the camp now but I
remember in Afghanistan, near the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, we got camp over there, and at that time run by Ibrahim al Rari, and I saw the guy over there and he got trained over there. Q. Didn't you tell the United States agents on October 22,
1996, that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed Yusef? A. What I tell them, I see the guy in south camp in the
border between Afghanistan and Pakistan and the camp is named Sada camp. Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, on October 22, 1996, did you tell the
American agents that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed Yusef? A. No, I don't remember I tell them that. Maybe somebody
type it wrong or somebody, he not understand what I am talking about, but I saw the guy in Sada camp in the border of the camp between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Q. I am going to show you page 150 of what is marked 3501-45.
22 23 24 25
Do you read English? A. Q. A little bit. I want you to read the second and third sentence in this,
and you tell me if this refreshes your recollection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 929 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
A.
OK. THE COURT: Understand, the question isn't what it The question is whether seeing that it Do you
refreshes your recollection as to what you said. understand that difference? THE WITNESS: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Yes. May I approach the witness? Yes.
(Document translated) A. The group -THE COURT: No. You are asked a question that calls The question is whether reading that
refreshes your recollection as to what you had told the Americans. A. Q. Yes, yes. In fact, didn't you tell the Americans after 20 or so
meetings that in fact you never saw Ramzi Yusef? A. Q. A. What here -Yes, no, Mr. Fadl. No. MR. SCHMIDT: Q. May I have that paper back.
Did you call Mr. Ramzi Yusef the mastermind of the World
23 24 25
Trade Center bombing? A. No, they have nickname for him but I don't remember his
name now. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 930 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
Q.
Did you call him the mastermind of the World Trade Center
bombing? A. Q. No, I don't call him that. In fact, isn't that what you said to the Americans, that
you knew the mastermind, you trained with the mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing, Ramzi Yusef, on your first or second interview with the American agents? correct? A. Yes, I told them I saw the guy in Sada camp, the border of Isn't that
Pakistan and Afghanistan. Q. Didn't you tell them, the Americans, in the first
interview, that you were the chief of security for Usama Bin Laden for a year? A. Q. A. Q. Bodyguard? Chief of security. Me or who? Did you tell the Americans the first time you came in to
sell yourself to the Americans -MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: question. Q. The first time that you came to see the Americans, didn't Objection to form. Restart your
23 24 25
you tell them that you were the chief of security for Mr. Bin Laden for a year? A. Yes, I bodyguard for him and I traveled with him inside SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 931 12kkbin1 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
Didn't you tell the Americans that you were chief of (Interpreted)
security. Q. it. Did you tell the American agents that you were the chief of security for Bin Laden for one year? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. That was a lie, wasn't it? No. You haven't described your role during my -THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: Q. Are you going to ask a question now? I will withdraw and rephrase that. My question, Mr. Al-Fadl, is simple, and please translate
When in your description of the jobs that you did for Bin
Laden that you just testified to that you were the chief of security? A. Any time he call me and he say we want to go to Damazine
24 25
Soba farm number one, and that is security work. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 932 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
Q.
what you're saying? A. Yes, when I go with him he drive me and I know him in the
end of '88 and that's part of the security. Q. Tell us what other role as chief of security -- withdrawn. What other activities did you do as chief of security for Mr. Bin Laden during that time? A. When we working interrogation office we check everybody
come to the al Qaeda group, the new people and that security, too. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. Yes. Anything else entailed -They will come to -THE COURT: Q. Wait a minute. That's part of your role as chief of security?
Let me finish my question. THE COURT: Wait a minute. Slow down. Ask the
question, permit the witness to answer the question before you ask another question, and let's start over again. MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Q. He interrupted my question. You were both talking at the same time.
as the chief of security for Mr. Bin Laden during that time?
24 25
A.
We
ship, if we have meetings we checked everybody, we try make SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 933 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
everything secure in the guest house or farm. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. How many times did you go to say Damazine farm? Different times. How many times? I don't remember how many times but different times. One time, two times, ten times, twenty times? More than two or three or four. MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Q. Time frame, Judge?
Time frame.
While you lived in the Sudan how many times did you go to
Damazine? A. Q. A. In '92, '93, '94. Sir, how many times did you go to Damazine? I don't remember how many time exactly. It could be more
than five, six, seven. Q. Haven't you previously -- haven't you told the Americans
that you went to the Damazine farm on two occasions and two occasions only? A. Q. A. No, more than that. What else did you do as chief of security? Our companies also if anybody come to the company he
should sign his name, he should sign his name, put his name and we see his ID card. in all the companies. We want to see who, also, we do that
25
Q.
12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. A. Q. A. We make report about a lot of other groups in Sudan, and
some groups the workers name is Bin Laden group and again. Q. A. Q. Anything else? And we work try to make sure he good. Is there any reason, Mr. Al Fadl, that when I was asking
you earlier today about the different roles and jobs that you had for Mr. Bin Laden that you left out your job as chief of security? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Objection to form, your Honor.
Could you repeat your question? You translate this, please. Is there any reason when I asked you all your jobs
and your roles that you did for Mr. Bin Laden from 1989 to 1994, you left out that you were the chief of security? (Through the interpreter) A. Q. A. I really misunderstand your question. Excuse me? I'm not understanding your question. MR. SCHMIDT: Please translate. Earlier today I'd asked you a
number of questions concerning what kind of work you did for Mr. Bin Laden, remember that? A. Yes.
25
Q.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 935 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 do? A. Q. What else did you do? Yes. And then I asked you was there anything else that you did Remember that?
and you said, no? A. Q. I don't remember. What I remember I tell you already.
Why did you not tell us about such important job as chief Why did you not tell us about
I don't remember and I tell you now there is nothing for We work in the business, we work in security, we We do different jobs.
my to hide.
the chief of security for Bin Laden, is that right? A. Yes. All you question about the business. You focus on
Now, you also told the government, the first time that you
saw him, that you knew Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan from 1986 to 1989. A. Remember telling them that?
newspaper come, and that time we know who is Bin Laden, but the first time in during '88. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, didn't you tell the Americans the first time
you met them, that, oh, I know Bin Laden Afghanistan from 1986 to 1989?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 936 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. No. Didn't you tell them that? No, because I came to United States in '86 and I left
United States end of '87. Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at a document marked
3501-45, page 1 at the bottom the last paragraph. May I approach the witness, your Honor? THE COURT: Certainly. Mr. Schmidt, let me know when
you're on a new topic. (Document handed to witness) (Pause) (Witness consults with interpreter) When I tell them that I talk about the time include when I
was in Farouk Mosque in Brooklyn. Q. Did you say to the Americans that you knew Bin Laden Didn't you say
Afghanistan during '86 to '89 time frame? that? A. Q. No, I don't remember.
Remember testifying here last week? A. Q. Yes. And you told us that when you believed it was the right
time to go to Afghanistan at the end of 1988 you told her you're leaving, right? A. Yes.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 937 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And you said, I don't know if I'm coming back and you
left, right? A. Yes. I tell her I want to go to Afghanistan and maybe I'm
never going to come back. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Now, you didn't divorce her, is that correct? No. No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they? What? No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they? At that time I work in Farouk Mosque and they tell me go
to Afghanistan, I go. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you went to Afghanistan because you thought
it was the right thing to do, isn't that right? A. I work at that time with Mustafa Shalabi in Farouk Mosque
in Brooklyn, we bring donation to the office and they send the donation from Brooklyn to Afghanistan. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, do you think that the fight against the
Russian communists by the Afghan mujahideen and the other Muslim volunteers was a good thing? A. I don't believe that. If he would tell me Farouk Mosque
about what's going on there, and that's why I go. Q. A. So when you went over. When you go somewhere, you need somebody to tell you about
that. Q. So when you went to the -- so when you were raising money
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 938 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for the Afghan resistance against the Russian communists you didn't know anything about it? A. The people tell me how it started, I started that I will
come when I work, and they tell me, look, you Muslim come to the mosque, bring donation, inform other people and I work with them in Brooklyn and after that they tell me better for you to go over there and I make my decision and I went over there. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you know about the Russians invading
Afghanistan -A. Q. A. Q. Came from the news, but news is not enough. Please let me finish my question, Mr. Al Fadl? Okay. Did you know about the Russians invading Afghanistan when
you were living in the Sudan? A. Q. A. Q. No. You had no idea? Only here when I come to the United States. You never heard about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan --
Just from the news. Do you know about it from the news while you were in the
Sudan? A. Q. I, yes. But it wasn't any of your concern? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
939 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. And you came to the United States? Yes. And you ended up in Brooklyn, right? Yes. You ended up going to a mosque in Brooklyn where they
talked about what was going on in Afghanistan? A. No, actually I work in grocery and somebody, two guys,
three came and start talking, tell me come to the mosque, their lecture something about Afghanistan, if you want to know that's good for you. Q. So when you went around getting donations did you think it
was a good thing? A. Yeah, after they tell me and give me details, yes, I think
that's a good idea. Q. A. Q. Did you think it was a good thing? Yes. About all the people trying to force the Russian
communists out of Afghanistan? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, that's right. Did you support them? Yes. You supported them by working and getting money, is that
12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And you knew that Muslims from around the world were going
to Afghanistan to actually help fight or help relief work in Afghanistan? A. Q. Yes. Now, before you were asked to go, did you have any
thoughts about that might be a good thing for you to do? A. Well, when I hear the first one they tell me about the
fatwa I say, well, that's a good idea, because Bin Laden Abdul Azzam, they make lecture in jihad magazine, and we read the magazine in Brooklyn, and we see, well, this is fatwa. Q. So you were following what was going on in Afghanistan at
the mosque, at the Afghani Center or was that -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Farouk Mosque. Mektab? Yes, Farouk Mosque is -Al kafar ring a bell? Mosque Al kafar. And you're reading the jihad magazine? Yes. Mustafa Shalabi every magazine he give it to us and
we read it. Q. You knew that the Afghanis themselves were seeking help
from Muslims to fight the Russians to throw them out of their country, right? A. Q. Correct, yes. The Afghanis invited, they wanted people to come and help SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 941 12K1BIN2
Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 them, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you read about what Bin Laden was doing, right? Bin Laden and Azzam. And what Mr. Azzam was doing, right? Yes. You thought that it would be a good thing for you as a
person reestablishing your Muslim identity to go and help the Afghanis, is that right? A. Q. Yes, they say you have to. Well, did you take the request to go to Afghanistan as an
order? A. Yes, because fatwa Islam mean like you have to, better
than do business or support your wife or kids, that I call it for the fatwa. Q. Fatwa means that you have to think about what people say
to see if you believe it's correct? A. No, fatwa is different. Fatwa means when the people tell
you the jihad in Afghanistan fardh al khafiya means you have to go by yourself to leave everything and go. Q. Isn't that the very big difference between Sunni and the
Shia? A. Q. Yes. Right. In the Shiites if the leader, if the imam, the
leader, says something is true you follow it, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 942 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes. But in the Sunni there is no leader like that, right? Because we don't have. Right. You have scholars who give their argument to you
why this is correct? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. Is that right? Yes. And what a fatwa is simply is if it's a proper fatwa is
issued by a scholar who says, this is what you should be done and because of the reasons? A. Q. Yes. And they explain it in order to convince each individual
Muslim of, that they're correct in doing this fatwa? A. Q. Yes. In fact, all through the Muslim Sunni world it's different
scholars say different things, right? A. Q. Yes. And it's your responsibility, your ultimate responsibility
as a good Muslim to make that determination on your own that this is a proper fatwa? A. No, no. Because if you think about the religion by itself
is not right, because the scholar he bring the fatwa from the Holy Koran from what prophet Mohammed say from what the scholar in history say, so when he tell you about the fatwa SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 943 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
not about what he think about the Holy Koran. Q. But aren't there times when there are different fatwas
that are issued that are complete opposite things, right? A. Q. A. Yeah, but that time -Mr. The scholar -THE COURT: The question is, right? Now he's
answering your question. Q. Now -THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: He's answers. He's going beyond, your Honor. Mr. Reporter, read the question.
(Record read) A. At that time the most of the scholars in Arab countries
and even the United States they say jihad in Afghanistan, and that means you have fardh al khafiya, but you can't even think about because you have to do just like prayer. Q. A good example. In Afghanistan all of the scholars agreed
that it was an obligation of good Muslims around the world to help their Afghani brothers throw out the Russians, right? A. Q. A. Q. It's not so you have to. That's --
Your obligation to help them throw out the Russians? Yes. Because the Afghanis requested help, it was a enemy that
was anti-Muslim that invaded their own country, so everybody SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 944 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
agreed, right?
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
Yes. Now, there are times when they don't always agree, these
scholars, right? A. Well, all the scholars they agree because it's in the
paper. Q. Now, let's use the interpreter. (Through the interpreter). There are times when
these scholars don't always agree about things other than Afghanistan, isn't that correct? THE INTERPRETER: and there are times -Q. A good example of when scholars do not agree was about the That means all the scholars agree
American presence in Saudi Arabia, isn't that right? A. I don't understand. MR. SCHMIDT: Would you please translate that.
(Through the interpreter) A. Q. Yes. And when the scholars do not agree it's the individual
Muslim who has the religious obligation to think and make their own decision as to what they believe is proper, isn't that correct? A. Q. No, is not correct. Are you saying that if someone issues, if some supposed
scholar issues a fatwa that you personally believe is against SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 945 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
Islam that --
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A.
Because --- should still follow it? If the fatwa about something like jihad is different than
fatwa about prayer, because is all scholar they make same fatwa for jihad we follow them, but if some scholar they say is not jihad, some scholars they say is jihad, we leave it. I'm not going to follow this or this until they came together and this is example for fardh al khafiya you all came together they agreed, but now a lot of groups in Arab countries they say when jihad in that country some scholars they say no, so the people they say no, we don't do jihad. Q. A. Q. And a good Muslim then would say, I'm not going to follow? Until the scholars come together. Now, let's go back to where it started. You left your
wife and you went to Afghanistan, is that right? A. Q. Yes. Now, the government said to you on direct examination,
asked you in Islam are you allowed more than one wife? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You said yes? Yes. Did you explain that to the government when you were
talking with them years ago about how you are allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 946 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2
A.
you have more than one four wives that's allowed to go.
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
permissible in Islam for you to have more than one wife, right? A. In Islam, yes, if you have -MR. FITZGERALD: A. Objection.
If you have more than one wife okay. THE COURT: Objection is sustained. The question and
answer stricken. Q.
time that, no, what you did was wrong about marrying the American woman? A. I really don't remember. THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: A. Q. A. I don't remember. You don't remember them saying anything like that? It could be, but I didn't remember now. If I remember I Wrong about marrying the American woman? Right.
say, you know, I'm glad to tell you. Q. You were married already in the Sudan before you came to
the United States, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Now, in fact, it's not simply, it's not permissible simply
to get up and marry a second or a third or fourth wife just SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 947 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2
because you decide, isn't that correct? A. Because in Islam, yes, if you marry one or more than one,
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
that's okay. Q. Isn't -- doesn't Islam require that you obtain the
permission of your first wife to marry a second wife? A. Q. If you tell her, that's great, if you don't tell her. Isn't it required in Islam that before you take a second
wife that you obtain the permission of the first wife? A. no. okay. Q. And how many years do you have to tell your second wife Some scholar they say you have to. Some scholars they say
If you married then after that you tell her, that's also
that, your first wife that you've taken a second wife? A. Well, the worst thing if you tell her right away is good
for you and her. Q. This is one of the things where scholars disagree and you
decided to follow the scholars that say you can go to another country and marry a woman and not tell anybody? A. No, not because I follow other scholar but I make mistake
like everybody you know, I didn't tell my wife, the first wife. Q. Well, isn't it a fact that another one of the rules about
taking more than one wife is not to cause any distress to the first wife, the main wife, the first wife, isn't that true? A. Well, look, I love her so much I say the first one, but SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 948 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2
when I come here I feel like if I marry it's better for me. Q. In other words, when you want to do something that you
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
want to do, you don't care what Islam says, isn't that right? A. I didn't say I don't care, but I say I make mistake I
should tell my first wife I'm in United States, I want to protect myself to marry the woman, I should tell her that, but I make mistake and I didn't tell her. Q. A. Q. How did you treat your second wife? Very good. Very good? And was it very good when you said, bye honey,
I'm going to Afghanistan? A. No. No, I didn't told her, bye, honey. I tell her I want
to go to Afghanistan.
because the Afghan, but I didn't her like I go to grocery store, I go to -Q. Were you sending money back to your first wife when you
were in the United States? A. Q. Could you repeat the question? Were you sending money back to your first wife when you
were in the United States? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Without your second wife knowing about it? The first, the wife here? The first wife is in the Sudan, right? Yes, the first wife in Sudan. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 949 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3
Q. A. Q.
Then you came to the United States, right? Yes. You started working, you got married, you're a lonely man
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
in the United States, you got married, right, and intimate marital relations with her. your first wife in the Sudan? A. Q. Yes, yes. And your second wife didn't know about it. You did it Did you send money to support
behind her back? A. Q. No, I didn't tell her. And how much money have you given your second wife since
you come back to the United States? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. The wife I live here in the United States? Yes? I pay for the rents every week $50. To which wife? The wife here. Do you have a child with her? No. So you've been since you're back in the United States
you're giving your first wife $50? A. No, no, no, I talk about the wife here in the United
States, we share the apartment, and I pay the rent every week, $50. I buy some food and other stuff. THE COURT: What time interval are we talking about?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 950 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 Q. A. Q. That's when you were in the United States living with her? Yes. Now, you told the Americans the first day that you started
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
talking to them that you were forced by your superiors to divorce your American wife? A. I not understand what you said. MR. SCHMIDT: Can you translate, please.
(Through the interpreter) A. The people I work with in Brooklyn they tell me you have
to go to Afghanistan and you have fatwa. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were
forced by your superiors to divorce your first wife after one year? A. Q. When I talk about the fatwa. Mr. Al Fadl -Can we have the question translated please? I'll rephrase the question. Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were forced by your superiors to divorce your American wife after one year? A. Yes. But I talk about the fatwa, 'cause I have to go to
Afghanistan. Q. Did you tell the Americans that you traveled to the United
States in 1985 or 1986 for Islamic military training on the second interview with the Americans? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 951 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4
A. Q. A. Q.
No, no.
No.
I'm going to ask you -I don't remember that at all. I'm going to ask you to take a look and this is marked
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
3501-35, page 4, I'm marking now where I want you to take a look. Please have the interpreter translate it for you. May I approach the witness, your Honor? THE COURT: Yes.
(Document handed to witness) (Through the interpreter) THE INTERPRETER: A. Q. Which paragraph?
No, I never remember, I never tell them that. Thank you. MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, this may be a good point to
break. THE COURT: point. (Recess) (In open court; jury not present) THE COURT: Please be seated. The Marshal tells me We'll take our mid-morning recess at this
one of the jurors just learned that his mother passed away and he's on the phone. (Pause) (In open court; jury present) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 952 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 Q.
THE COURT:
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
University of Georgia? A. Q. I don't remember. How many pages was the application that you had to fill
out to go to the University of Georgia? A. me. Q. I remember my brother Ibrahim he bring the application for I don't remember it's two or three weeks. Did you have to provide any other information to the
University of Georgia to get admitted to the University of Georgia? A. I remember at that time my brother Ibrahim and my cousin
they tried to help me, but they said they need the high school for Sudan and other stuff. Q. How much did you pay for the first semester for the
school? A. We got the first semester, I don't know it's six hundred
for just English for two months. Q. At that time in 1986 your English wasn't as good as it is
now, is that right? A. Q. No. Now, in fact, you never went to the University of Georgia
is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 953 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5
A.
but I took the semester for English. Q. But when you went to the US embassy to get a visa to go to
the United States you told them that you were going to be a student at the University of Georgia, didn't you?
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
Yes. And you had a visa, a student visa based on your sworn
statement to the United States counsulate, isn't that right? A. Q. you? A. Well, I did the application and I got the visa. MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate this, please? Yes, you call it I20. You had to make sworn statements to get that visa, didn't
(Through the interpreter) Q. You had to make sworn statements at the United States
counsulate that you were going to college for you to get the visa, isn't that correct? (Through the interpreter) A. No, they don't do that with me. They just give me I20
application and they give me something they call it I20. is for people who go for student. Q. A. To had fill out that accurately, is that correct? Yes.
who is going to support you and you bring that from your dad and you bring the ticket. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 954 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5
Q.
accurate and are not lies, isn't that right? A. No, you bring letter for whatever he going to support the
trip and your child in the United States and I bring that letter from my dad.
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
that correct? A. Q. Yes. And you went to the mosque in New York and you obtained
employment, is that right? A. I remember I went to New York. After that I went to
Atlanta, Georgia and after that I came back again to New York and I stay in Brooklyn. Q. You never went to school in the United States, is that
correct? A. Well, I try, I said that, and after that I change my mind
because it cost a lot of money and I decide not to. THE COURT: Mr. Al Fadl, please listen to the
question, and if the question could be answered yes or no answer it yes or no. the question. THE WITNESS: Q. Okay. Don't give your reason, but just answer
September 7th into November with agents at the US embassy; is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 955 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6
A. Q. A.
Yes. These were not FBI agents; is that correct? I don't know what kind of agents but I know they're from
the government. Q. But then there came another point in time December of
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
themselves as FBI agents, is that correct? A. Yes, after that we went to Europe and I talk with other
thirty or so different days that you were interviewed, right? A. Q. Yes, it could be around three weeks. Now, the first one was December 6, 1996. Would that be
about right? A. Q. In Nigeria. The first interviews the first time that you came into
talk to the Americans? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. In December? Yes. So it was a lot more than three weeks? Could be. Now, during that time you were asked questions about and
you volunteered information about different people that you knew from the Sudan, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 956 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6
A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
Yes. From Afghanistan? Yes. People involved with Bin Laden? Yes. Is that correct?
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes. And people involved with the NIF? Yes. And other people that you came in contact with during the
years of 1986, when you came to the United States to the year that you, 1996, when you started talking to the Americans. that correct? A. Q. Yes. And that first thirty or so meetings you gave them Is
hundreds of names, is that right? A. Q. Yes. Some of them that you mentioned on your own. Is that
right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And some of them that they asked you about? Yes. Right? Correct. The other ones were ones, I work with this person and this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 957 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross Do you know such and such, right?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
person, right? Do you recall the first occasion that you mentioned in some name or form Wadih El Hage? A. Q. A. Q. At what time? Yes. I don't understand. How many days or how many interviews went by before you
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
mentioned a person that you now claim to be Wadih El Hage in your interviews, not with the FBI in Europe, but those earlier interviews? A. If I remember right I think in Europe when I was in
Europe. Q. The first time that you talked about Wadih El Hage was in
Europe with the FBI, is that your testimony? A. I'm not sure, but it could be in Europe when I was in
Europe. Q. You told -- before you went to Europe, you told the
government every Abu name that you knew of, isn't that right? A. Q. Yes. You did not say Abu Abdallah meaning Mr. El Hage during
those first thirty or thirty-five interviews you had with the United States government, isn't that correct? A. Q. I really don't remember. Your present memory is the first time -- withdrawn. Did you ever use the name El Hage in the thirty or so SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 958 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
times or two and a half months that you were interviewed by the people before you went to Europe? A. Really don't remember. What I remember in Europe, we talk
about Wadih El Hage. Q. But while you were in, before you went to Europe, during
all those interviews the government agents were asking you about all the people that were involved in al Qaeda; is that
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes.
And you named hundreds of people, didn't you? Correct. And you did not mention Wadih El Hage? I don't remember. Isn't that correct? I don't remember. Do you remember saying anything about Wadih El Hage to the
agents before you went to Europe? A. Q. I really don't remember. The answer is yes, I do not remember ever saying anything
about Wadih El Hage, is that correct? A. Q. I do not remember if I say or I don't say. What at this particular time is the first thing that you
remember telling any government agent outside of Europe or Europe about Wadih El Hage? A. I remember one time we talk in about him in Europe. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 959 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross But I
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
didn't remember if I talk about him before Europe or no. Q. Isn't it a fact that the first time that the name of Wadih
El Hage came up was when the FBI asked you what you know about Wadih El Hage on October 23, 1997? A. Q. I really don't remember. Mr. Al Fadl, you have told us that you remembered hundreds
of names Abu names, person's given names and you told them all to the government, and it is your testimony here today that
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
you don't remember when the first time you were asked about Wadih El Hage? A. Is that your testimony? I don't remember
but I didn't remember which year or which month they asked me about, and if I remember, I'd be glad to tell you. Q. Wasn't it the government who first mentioned Wadih El
Hage's name and not you? A. I really don't remember if I mention it or the government
mention it and what time, what year, what month, I really don't remember. Q. It was more than one year after you started talking to the
United States that the government asked you about Wadih El Hage, isn't that correct, Mr. Al Fadl? A. Q. I don't remember. When was the first time that Mr. El Hage's name Abu
Abdallah came up? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 960 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
A. Q.
I really don't remember. Was it before or after you discussed with the government
the name Wadih El Hage? A. I really don't remember which year or which month they
asked me or I mentioned or they mentioned it to me. Q. My question is -Can you interpret this, please? Did the name Abu Abdullah al Lubnani, come up before
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
or after the mentioning of Wadih El Hage? (Through the interpreter) THE INTERPRETER: not hear. MR. SCHMIDT: Lubnani. The name is Abdallah what? I did
(Through the interpreter) A. Q. What I remember saying I think it was yes, El Hage, yes. Did you know him? You claim to know him by any other name
than Abu Abdullah al Lubnani and Wadih El Hage? A. Q. A. I think in Afghanistan. Where in Afghanistan was this? I remember I saw him in Afghanistan in the shower in the
camp, in the first camp. Q. A. In what year was this? I really don't remember if '91 or '2 or '90, I really
don't remember. Q. You say it could have been '91 or '92? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 961 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
A. Q. A.
I really don't remember, but area like '92. Which arm of Mr. El Hage is whithered? Well, at that time I saw different time Mr. Abu. MR. SCHMIDT: Could you interpret the question?
Which arm of Mr. El Hage is whithered? THE INTERPRETER: MR. SCHMIDT: Is what?
Whithered.
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q.
Do you know what hand he writes with? I really don't remember. Do you know the name of any of his children other than
Abdallah? A. Q. A. No. Do you know what house he lived in when he was in Sudan? I remember he live in a building near the Al Qaeda
organization, and under his house is if I remember right is pharmacy. Q. Do you know -- withdrawn. He worked in the office at
McNimr Street? A. Q. A. Yes. Did he work anywhere else to your knowledge? Well, I saw him in McNimr Street and I saw him sometime in
farm with the meeting, sometime in guest houses. Q. I asked you did you ever see him work in a different SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 962 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
office? A. In the guest house the people come to the guest house it's
work, because the people in al Qaeda group if you not in al Qaeda group you can't go to the guest house, and when you go over there you go for lecture or fatwa or meeting or talking, and that's part of our job. Q. A. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, do you know what I mean? That was my answer, so what do you mean? Do you know if he worked in any other office?
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A. Q. A.
Yes. What other office? In the guest houses, in the farm. What offices are in the guest houses? For the meetings, are all the membership they come to the
meetings. Q. Offices in the guest house? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: A. Yes. Objection, your Honor.
In the guest houses. THE COURT: The question is asked and answered. Ask
the next question. Q. Is there any other offices for any of Mr. Bin Laden's
businesses other than at McNimr Street? A. Q. Yes. Where? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 963 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
A.
office in middle Khartoum. Q. Now, do you understand what I mean when I say office, Mr.
Al Fadl? A. Q. When you talk about office I -Mr. Al Fadl? MR. FITZGERALD: answer the question? MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, would you instruct the Objection, your Honor. May he
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
answer that's all that he has to do, we won't have this. THE COURT: Ask the question that can clearly and
fairly be answered by a yes or no answer, I'll direct the witness to answer yes or no. Q. I ask you do you now know what I mean by office, Mr. Al
Fadl? A. Q. A. Q. Would you repeat the question? Do you now know what I mean by office, Mr. Al Fadl? What you talk about business or the group? The business. THE COURT: Why don't you define office, and then ask
your question based on your definition. Q. A. The business offices that you just described? Yes, I saw him sometime in construction, and also with at
Themar al Mubaraka company. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 964 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Q.
Did you ever see him work out of the office other than
McNimr office, not visit, but work out of the office? A. Well, I know when he was in Ibrahim he worked with him,
and sometimes I know he helped with al Qudurat construction. Q. In the other offices that you know that he worked out of
other than the al Qudurat? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And the office in McNimr any other offices that you -I saw different times Bareba commission company. Where was that located?
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
That in Burton building in middle Khartoum. Any other offices you see him work out of, not visit to
have a meeting, but to work out where he had a desk or an office? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: where he had a desk? MR. SCHMIDT: desk. THE COURT: question is so vague. calls, define business. Q. A. Q. In McNimr Street Mr. El Hage had a desk. Yes. And a telephone; is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 965 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross Is that right? I sustain the objection to form. The Work out of, defining where he had a Objection to form.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes. And papers there, is that right? Correct. Did he ever have a desk in any other business office
related to the Usama Bin Laden? A. Q. No. And its your testimony that you're a close associate of
Mr. Usama Bin Laden, is that right? A. Q. Yes, I work with him for nine years. Did you ever tell -- did you ever -- you've testified on You testified
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
about going to get some passports for one of your travels. you remember that? A. Q. Yes. You mentioned a person you dealt with. Who was that
Do
person?
passport issues? A. Q. A. Q. A. At what time? The time that you went to see him? Where in Sudan or Afghanistan? In the Sudan? Got office in McNimr Street and after that he moved to
Wadi company and after this they moved to the big guest house. Q. Now, you remember you testified that you went to get your
passport from them and that you saw somebody there who was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 966 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
MR. FITZGERALD: prior testimony. THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Q. A. Q.
Restate your question. Excuse me, your Honor? Restate your question.
You remember your testimony about your trip to Egypt? Yes. Remember testifying that you went to an office to get the
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
documents. A. Q. A.
But that's in Afghanistan, not in the Sudan. In the Sudan? No. What I remember I tell them I went that I can
Pakistan, because I went to Egypt from Pakistan. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What year was that? I really don't remember. It's 1991 or 1992? No, before '92. 1991? I really not sure, if '90 or '91. You said that you saw Tamsa Al Nibi? Hamdala. Excuse me? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 967 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
A. Q. A.
Hamdala Al Nibi. Where were they? In the shower, and before I had a bath in the shower we
had office over there. Q. Now, you said there is a time you met somebody named Abu
Abd al Sabbur? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. But you had no dealings with him there? Yes. Now, it's not your testimony that Abu al Sabbur is Mr. El
Hage, is it? A. No, what I tell them I'm not sure if Wadih El Hage or
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
somebody different. Q. So it's your testimony now that you might have seen Mr. El
Hage back in Afghanistan when you were -- Pakistan -- when you were picking up your documents to travel? A. No. I tell them the guy he have the documents in that
office, I'm not sure if it is Wadih El Hage or somebody else but I didn't tell them I never see them, I see him in the guest house in a different time. Q. But you said that the person that you saw, but didn't deal
with, was a person named Abdel al Sabbur, right, that's the words you used? A. That's what people called him. MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. His nickname is Al Sabbur.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 968 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q. You know him, Mr. El Hage, you know his name, he's sitting
right over there, is that correct? A. Q. Yes, I know his name is Wadi El Hage. So if it was Mr. El Hage sitting there, you would have
said it was Mr. Wadih El Hage, is that right? A. No, because Abdullah and they help me with that trip so I
didn't deal with him, and sometime you go inside the office then you see people sitting, but after a few months you don't remember, you know, who is exactly. That's why I tell them
I'm not sure is Wadih or somebody else. Q. Mr. El Hage obviously did not leave an impression on you
very much when it took you over a year to even talk with him
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
about the government, is that correct? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Q. A. Q. A. Objection.
Sustained.
Are you known also as Abu Ubaidah? Know what? Are you known also as Abu Ubaidah? I don't remember, because the people switch the nicknames.
Could be one person he got five nicknames. THE COURT: known by that name? MR. SCHMIDT: A. Q. I don't remember. Let me make sure that we have no misunderstanding. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 969 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross Yes, that's my question. The question is whether the witness was
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A. Q. Q.
Ubaidah? A. Me? (Through the interpreter) No, Abu Kastani and Abu Kazam. Do you know any other Sudanese who worked for Mr. Bin
Laden who stole money from him? A. Q. A. Q. Abu Suree. One guy his name Abu Suree.
This is a Sudanese? No, he's Sudian. I'm asking you do you know any other Sudanese who stole
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
money from Mr. Bin Laden? A. Q. A. Q. I don't remember. You don't know or you don't remember? I know, but I don't remember now. Now, Mr. Al Fadl, you told us a little bit of a speech I
Tamiyeh. A. Q. A.
Yes, I remember the speech. And it involved the war with the Tartars, the Tartars? Tarta, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 970
12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. And you said that in that speech that Mohammed Ibn
Tamiyeh? A. Q. A. Q. Ahmed. Ahmed? Yes. Ibn Tamiyeh said that it was okay just to kill civilians
in a war and if they're innocent they'll go to heaven, right? Isn't that what you said? A. Yes, he talk about that time and he said the Tartar is the
Muslim people hit the Tartar or around the Tartar, under the war you can if you kill them, you not wrong. Q. Now, isn't it a fact that what Mr. Ibn Tamiyeh said that
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
children, or older people may be killed in a war, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, because he say -Just yes, is the answer? Yes. And isn't the circumstances that he said that it's okay
was when the Tartars were using innocent Muslim women, children and older people as shields as they attacked Muslim villages, and that the Muslims could not defend themselves because they were not allowed to shoot at the innocent women, children, and older people who were being used as shields, isn't that how the story goes? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 971 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. Q.
(Witness consults with interpreter) No, not exactly what you say. Isn't it a fact that he said that Muslims can protect
their homes, their lands and their family and they can shoot at the attacking Tartars trying to avoid killing the innocent but if they don't and the innocents die then it is not a sin, it is permissible? A. Isn't that what he said --
remember, what he say. Q. Sure, go right ahead, Mr. Al Fadl, tell us what you
remember now what he said. A. What I remember he say when is the Muslim people go to the
Tartar, when the Tartar come to the Muslim land, the Muslim they should leave the area to go help the other Muslim against
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Tartar, but if the Muslim around them are the fighting Muslim they came and they kill the innocent this is their problem why they came around the Tartar. Q. Now, also you said that you could kill any Muslim who was
doing business with the Tartars? A. Q. Yes. Isn't it a fact what Abu Hajer told you about what Tamiyeh
said was that the Tartars were at war with the Muslims? Can you translate, please? (Through the interpreter) A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 972 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
Q.
the Tartars conquer the Muslim lands and kill the Muslim people? A. Q. Yes. And that should you find anyone, any Muslim who is helping
the Tartars kill and attack Muslims, that you are to bring them to the court at that time and if they are found guilty they are to be executed? Isn't that what he explained? A. He talk during war like the people fight and the Muslim
against the Tartar and you kill him because his problem why he help the Tartar and why he around the Tartar. Q. A. Because he was helping the enemy? Yes. Help them, and with them.
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
isn't that right? A. Q. Yes. And in many countries treason is punishable now by death,
isn't that right? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: A. Yes. THE COURT: Q. No. It's stricken. Objection. 401.
Sustained.
Now, weren't there political discussions -- withdrawn. Weren't there discussions among al Qaeda members SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 973
12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 A. Q. A. Q. about American troops fighting the Iraqis in Saudi Arabia? A. Q. Yes. And isn't it, wasn't the discussion about the bad things
that Saddam Hussain was doing to good Muslims in the Arabian peninsula? (Witness consults with interpreter) I really don't remember. Wasn't there people who said it wasn't a bad thing for the
Americans to help defeat Saddam Hussein in Kuwait? (Witness consults with interpreter) In our group is your question? Wasn't there a number of people in the discussions that
you had amongst al Qaeda members that believed it was not a bad thing for the Americans to fight the Iraqis and get them out of Kuwait?
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
things. Q. And isn't it that there was a dispute among all Muslims,
not just al Qaeda, but all Muslims about America's role in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Q. Isn't that right? Objection. Time frame.
A.
12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. And after the war was over isn't it the general Muslim
belief that the Americans should leave Saudi, Arabia, the land of the holy places? A. Q. Yes. And the vast majority of Muslims believed it in 1991 and
believe it today, isn't that right? A. Q. Yes. The only dispute is how, what to be done to force, to make
the Americans leave the land of the holy places, isn't that right? A. Q. Yes. And you, as you sit here right now, you believe that the
American troops should not be in Saudi Arabia, isn't that correct? A. You ask me about the religion or political?
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
courtroom, do you believe that the Americans should still be in the land of the holy places? A. Q. It's hard to say yes or no. Doesn't many or most Muslims think that Americans who are
not Muslims should not be guarding the most sacred places in Islam, isn't that right? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: A. If you let me -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 975 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross Objection.
Sustained.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Do you remember being asked about an Egyptian, remember I think the Egyptian Islamic jihad raising the question that the American embassy in Saudi Arabia should be attacked? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yeah. And you said that obviously wasn't done, right? No. That's correct? Yes. But you weren't clear why. Do you remember testifying to
that?
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
I don't remember why he didn't do it. Isn't it a fact that the Saudis that were members of al
Qaeda who were present at the time that it was mentioned said no, you don't do that against civilian targets? A. Q. I remember some people they say no, it's not good idea. They didn't just say, no, it's not a good idea. They said
that you do not go against civilian targets? A. Q. Yes. Isn't that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 976 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
A. Q. A. Q. A.
Correct. And it was dropped? Yes. Right? Yes. MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, this would be a good time
to break. THE COURT: we'll resume at 2:15. Counsel please remain in the courtroom. (Continued on next page) All right. We will break for lunch and
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 977 12K1BIN2 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 (Jury not present) THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, how much longer do you
I am right now, I'm not sure whether I will finish this afternoon or not. THE COURT: Very well. We're adjourned to 2:15.
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 978 12kkbin3 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 writes: AFTERNOON SESSION 2:15 p.m. (Jury not present) THE COURT: The juror whose mother passed away
"I am sorry to announce the passing of my mother on The arrangements have not
have your mother pass away, and all I am asking is have you inquired as to whether or not -THE COURT: I think his actions, the fact that he Does
does this demonstrates a desire to continue on the jury. anybody else think that I should ask him whether it is a problem?
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fidelity.
MR. COHN:
I am not sure it demonstrates reality once his All I am asking is that we ask if the
afternoon is well passed or if the juror will be elsewhere because they are upset. THE COURT: I will observe his demeanor carefully
during the afternoon and see if there is a problem. (Jury present) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 979 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL, resumed. THE COURT: cross-examination. CROSS-EXAMINATION continued BY MR. SCHMIDT: Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Mr. Al-Fadl, do you know what the word couple means? Can you spell it. C-O-U-P-L-E. No. Do you know that couple means two, pair? Yes. THE COURT: two. It doesn't mean two pair. Couple means Two? Mr. Schmidt, you may continue your
Two pair are four. MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you, your Honor. I think I'm
out. (Laughter) Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, isn't it a fact that you told government
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
occasions? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And a couple means approximately two occasions. Two or more. Does a couple mean two or more or a couple mean two? THE COURT: in Webster. The question isn't really what it means
What did you understand it to mean? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 980
12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A. What I remember, I tell them I visit the Damazine camp
different times. Q. What you told them is that you visited the Damazine camp
two times. A. Q. What I remember is more than two. Do you remember telling the government that it is two
times? A. Q. No, I don't. Do you remember telling the government that it was a
couple of times? A. What I remember now, I visited the Damazine camp more than
twice. Q. Are you denying or admitting that you told the government
that you went to the Damazine camp on a couple of occasions? A. If I tell them two times that time, maybe I am wrong, but
what the truth, more than twice. Q. This conversation that you had with the government was in
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
Objection to form.
Withdrawn.
initial ones, were in 1996, wasn't it? A. Q. I don't remember if '96 or '97. Do you recall when you first went and talked to the
government? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 981 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
A.
No, I talked to them about that but I don't know the year.
A lot of people forget about years. Q. The first time that you talked to the government at the
embassy, what year was that, sir? A. Q. '96. At the time that you had 30 or 36 conversations with the
'96, wasn't it? A. Yes, but different agents, and maybe they ask me different
questions, different style. Q. I am going to show you a document marked 3501-2, and I am
going to ask you to look at the bottom, the last sentence, and then the date at the top, and see if this refreshes your recollection. MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness, your Honor? As recollection as to what? As to the date he had a conversation. The date of a particular conversation? The date of a conversation that he had
20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, I say couple, but I mean more than two. This was in 1996, is that correct? Yes. This was over four years ago, is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 982
12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. Q. Yes. Within a few years of the time that you worked for Mr. Bin
Laden, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Right now it is the year 2001, is that right? Yes. Are you telling us that your memory is better now than
when you had the conversation with the agents back in 1996? A. No, sometimes you forget something today but later on you
remember, just like human being. Q. You had a discussion on direct examination concerning an Do you remember that?
cylinder in a bag? A. Q. Location -I am asking, you were there at the time they brought a
20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q. A.
What kind of bag was the cylinder carried in? This size. Was it a fabric bag? Was it a paper bag?
It's something like first time in my life I saw bag that So it look different than normal bag we use.
kind. Q.
What did it look like it was made out of? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 983
12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. A. You open it like that and when it have two halves, the
size same, and in the back it's -MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate the question what (Interpreted)
(Interpreted) Strong leather Err. THE COURT: Leather? Yes, your Honor.
THE INTERPRETER:
Did you see the bag carried into the room? Yes. How many people carried the bag into the room? I think one person and one with him. How many hands was he holding the bag in? I don't remember really. Did he pick up the bag and put it on a table? No, they put it in moquette. THE INTERPRETER: On the wall-to-wall carpet. It's
called moquette. Q.
21 22 23 24 25
Q. A.
What did he do? He got paper in his hand and something written in the
cylinder and he looked at the paper and he looked at the cylinder. He look at the cylinder and look at the paper for a
few minutes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 984 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Q. A. Q. A.
Did he pick up the cylinder? Yes. How many hands did he use to pick up the cylinder? I remember he took it and he just put it like that. The
cylinder is like this size. Q. Approximately two and a half feet in length? Would that
How big was the circumference around the pipe? Maybe this. Do that again, please. Maybe like this. Indicating maybe five, six inches? THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: Six inches in diameter? Diameter, excuse me. Thank you.
Q. A. Q.
After he looked at it, he put it back in the bag? Yes. And the people who brought the bag closed it up and walked
out with it? A. Yes. I walked first me and Bashir outside, and later
21 22 23 24 25
on -- after he close it, he still talk with the people and he tell me wait outside. Q. A. Q. Me and the guy Bashir went out. (Interpreted)
When the person was carrying the bag with the cylinder, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 985
12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 was he walking normally? A. Q. Could you repeat the question. Would you translate that, please. The person who was
carrying the bag, was he walking normally? (Interpreted) A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I don't remember that. Do you remember him walking funny? I really don't remember. Did he look like he had any trouble with the bag? I don't remember. There are a number of mosques in Khartoum that people who
worked for Bin Laden went to, is that right? A. Q. Yes. Can you tell us the names of some of these mosques that
the people who worked for Bin Laden went to. A. We have Square 9 mosque in Riyadh City. And we have Da'wa
Organization mosque in Riyadh also. Q. A. Da'wa, the one that there is a supermarket behind? It's not far from the Riyadh Street. And we got mosques
in our companies. Q. A. Is there a mosque called Al Kalla? Could you repeat it.
22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q. A.
Is there a mosque called Al Kalla A-L, K-A-L-L-A? I don't remember. Is there a mosque called Mashilla, M-A-S-H-I-L-L-A? I don't remember. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 986
12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. Did anybody who worked for Bin Laden ever speak in the
mosques in the Friday service? A. Yes. We went, most of the time we went to 9 Square in
Riyadh City, and sometimes Da'wa Organization, sometimes we go to African University mosque. Q. When you say sometimes we, different people went to
different mosques different times? A. Q. You are right. And different people spoke at different mosques at
different times, right? A. Q. You are right, yes. And the mosques were open to the public for everybody to
different. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. You know Abu Hafs el Masry, don't you? Which one? El Masry? We have two Abu Hafs el Masry. The Abu also known as Abu Hafs el Masry Atef. We have el Masry al Khabir, we have Abu Hafs el Masry al
22 23 24 25
Sashir. Q. A. Q. Abu Hafs the Egyptian, you know him? I know both. You know the one who is Egyptian, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 987 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes, both Egyptian. You were shown a photograph of Abu Hafs the Egyptian? Al Khabir, yes, el Masry, yes. There is one Abu Hafs who is closer to Bin Laden than the
other, is that correct? A. Q. Yes, Abu Hafs al Khabir, right. You were shown a picture of Abu Hafs al Khabir on October Do you remember being shown a photograph of him?
17, 1997. A.
picture of him. Q. A. Do you remember not being able to identify him? I don't remember, but I remember they show me picture of, But I don't know which
Didn't you have trouble identifying a picture of Abu Hafs? It could. Sometimes they show me a lot of photographs and
I tell them I don't recognize this guy because he shave his beard or because he dress different, or like that. Q. So what you are saying is that you might not have been
able to identify someone that you knew very well because his beard was shaven; is that what you are saying? A. Not only beard, but sometimes a picture when he is very
23 24 25
younger, even before he come to the group. Q. His appearance was different because it may not have been
the same as when you see him all the time in the Sudan, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 988 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
A.
whoever make the photograph of him, he don't make it good. Q. Weren't you shown a photograph of a newspaper of Mohammed
Atef and you were unable to identify him? A. Q. Would you repeat that. Weren't you shown a photograph of Mohamed Atef, and you
were unable to identify that photograph as Mohamed Atef? A. Q. Usually when they -Mr. Al-Fadl, I am asking you, were you shown a photograph Yes or
of Mohamed Atef and you were unable to identify him? no. A. Q. A. Q. I don't remember. Did you ever hear of the name of Mustafa Hamza? Yes.
Did you ever tell the government that you were not sure
whether Abu Hafs or Mohamed Atef and Mustafa Hamza was the same person? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Q. Objection to form.
Did you ever tell the government that you were unsure that
Abu Hafs and Mustafa Hamza were the same person? A. Yes.
23 24 25
Q.
I would ask you to read or have read to you by the interpreter the first four sentences. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 989 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Q. Yes.
(Interpreter complies)
photograph of Mohamed Atef, also known to you as Abu Hafs -A. Q. A. Q. Masry. -- and you were unable to identify the photograph? Yes. That is because he looked different in the photograph than
he looked to you when you saw him in the Sudan and Pakistan, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Maybe the picture is not clear or like that.
when they have the Islamic beard and dress than when they shave and wear western clothes, is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And sometimes it is very hard to know who that person is? Yes. When they are photographed in different attire and
different facial hair. A. Q. Right. Do you know a person named Abu Mohamed al Iraqi?
24 25
A. Q.
I don't remember. You first arrived in Pakistan in 1988, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 990
12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Q. A. Q. Yes. But you were aware of many things that were being done in
Pakistan since 1986, is that correct? A. Q. Could you repeat the question. You were aware of many things that were going on in
Pakistan since 1986 after you came to the United States, is that right? A. Q. Can she help me? Sure. (Interpreted) Yes, when I was in Farouq mosque in Brooklyn. There were many Muslims who traveled to Pakistan and
Afghanistan not only to fight but to do charity work, isn't that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, correct. They did relief work for the refugees, is that right? Yes. They brought books and taught children? Yes. You were in -- withdrawn. Mr. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan until about 1991, is that correct? A. Yes, he traveled back and forth Saudi Arabia.
24 25
Q.
During the whole time from 1988 when you first came to
Pakistan and Afghanistan until you finally left and Mr. Bin SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 991 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Laden left Pakistan and Afghanistan to come to the Sudan, isn't it a fact that you never once heard Mr. Bin Laden say anything bad about the United States? A. Q. A. In Afghanistan time? Yes. What I remember, we have book at that time when we are in
Afghanistan. Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, I asked you a question. MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Objection, your Honor.
That can be answered yes or no. MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. He was
giving him an answer and he stopped him. THE COURT: A. You may continue your answer.
his name Dr. Fadhl, and Saudi guy, they wrote book, and they called the book "The Clear Evidence to Make the Saudi Government UnMuslim Government," and at that time the people start to study why the Saudi government is not Muslim, because his relationship with Americans and Americans control the oil and control the money in Saudi Arabia. So that start over
there, I think end of '89 and area of '950. Q. Let me ask the question again. Perhaps we should have the
interpreter translate this question. During the period of time that you were in
25
Afghanistan and Pakistan and Usama Bin Laden was there as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 992 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
well, isn't it a fact that you never heard Bin Laden speak against the Americans or American interests? A. Q. I really don't remember. Didn't you tell the government on November 4 or 5 of 1996
that you never heard Bin Laden speak of the Americans or attacking Americans or American interests when you were in Afghanistan? A. Q. Yes, but not the group. Mr. Al-Fadl -THE COURT: Q. Let him answer. Do Himself -- himself, no.
I said Mr. Bin Laden, I did not say any other people.
you understand my question? A. But when you were -THE COURT: Laden personally? MR. SCHMIDT: what else that means. A. Q. But sometimes you use it as a group. I have never used it as a group. THE COURT: Q. Mr. Schmidt. I said Mr. Bin Laden. I don't know Wait a minute. Your question is Bin
Isn't it a fact -THE COURT: Just one moment, please. The question is
whether you heard Mr. Bin Laden personally speak anything bad about the United States during this period between 1988 in the
25
time he left to go to the Sudan, in that period of time. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 993 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q.
THE WITNESS:
Personally, no.
Mr. Al-Fadl, you told us that you took a bayat. Yes. You took that while you were in Afghanistan, is that
correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. It was a document, wasn't it? Not only documents. Was there a document that you had to read? Documents and talking. One of the things that you read that was a condition of
being in al Qaeda back in 1989 was that you could belong to no other Islamic Group other than al Qaeda, isn't that right? A. It's yes, first time they say, yes, you have to be in al
Qaeda group only. Q. Thank you. You also were told and read that there was
that you must keep your work and your missions confidential. (Interpreted) A. Q. Yes. You were told and you read that you were not to talk about
your work for al Qaeda with anybody other than your immediate superior, isn't that right? A. Q. No, it is not like what you said. Weren't you told that if you needed to talk to anyone
other than your immediate superior for the purpose of what you
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 994 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were doing you needed to get the permission of your immediate superior? A. If you want me explain I explain, because it is hard to
say yes or no. Q. A. Then please explain. If we are 10 guys in a group, we went somewhere, we know
what going on about, everybody know his rule and emir tell everybody what he has to do. So when we went for prayer after
prayer, with the same 10 guys, we talk about what going on. Q. So if all 10 of you had the same mission, the same role,
you were able to talk to them, right? A. This is the for attack or mission, for military purpose.
But if someone is going to be made fatwah or they want to send troops somewhere, one speaks for all of the members. Q. That is when there is a discussion about general goals,
right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, about who is going, who is not going. General goals there was a discussion. Yes. Specific, there were no discussions other than the people
on each particular mission, is that correct? A. Q. Not exactly what you say. Weren't you told that you were to keep your work
confidential and not discuss it with people, not to talk about it, not to gossip about it? Isn't that right?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 995 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. When they say that, they talk about the people not in the
group, not the member, the people in Qaeda member. Q. Let's talk about some things that you did for al Qaeda.
You delivered some documents in Egypt, is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, from Pakistan. Were you told what was in the documents? No. Were they sealed? What means sealed? Yes. You were given documents, told to give them to a person, (Interpreted)
and that was it, right? A. Q. Yes. No one told you about what was in the documents, is that
correct? A. Q. No. You didn't have a discussion with the people when you were
in Egypt about what was in the documents, is that correct? A. Q. No. And when you came back you didn't discuss it with anybody,
what was in the documents, is that correct? A. Well, the people near me in Qaeda tell me I went to Egypt,
I saw Abu Hafs el Masry and I saw Bakhri, and I traveled from Karachi to Egypt. them. This what I know about my trip, I tell
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 996 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. But you didn't know what the purpose was other than an You were not --
You were not told, is that correct? Yes. You went to Hungary. Yes. And you were told to meet a particular person, is that
correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, in Budapest. You weren't told why you were going there, were you? They said he want to talk to you over there. You weren't told why you were going there before you left,
is that correct? A. Yes, because I don't have visa, they want to talk to me, Because each trip
But if some problems they think, they try don't to tell you, if you catch by police or anything, you don't have to say anything. Q. They didn't tell you when you went to Hungary, is that
correct? A. Q. A. Because I didn't have visa. Because you didn't have visa? Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
997 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Then you learned not being told anything in Hungary but
being told to go to Zagreb. A. Q. Correct. And you weren't told when you were going to Zagreb why you
were going to Zagreb, is that correct? A. No, Bin Laden by himself, and I remember Abu Faqil el
Makkee al Hajj, in the same office told me when you go to Zagreb after Budapest we need to study the business investment over there, because the Croatian government sell a lot of companies. Q. So you knew the portion to go to Zagreb was to get
business and commercial information. A. And also to meet a person name Mohamed Sarudani, and he
tell me what going on inside Bosnia. Q. And that information, the commercial information from
Croatia and information about what's going on in Bosnia was given to you and you brought it back. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You went to Nairobi in 1991, didn't you? Yes. And not only did you go, you went with your wife, isn't
that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. You weren't told about why you were going, were you? No. What I remember what he told me, he told me this is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 998
12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 envelope, you going to meet, is Egyptian guy, I forget his name right now, he you meet him, give him the envelope, and we need you to work over there and take your wife with you. When
we went over there, the Egyptian guy he tell me no, we talk with Banshir about that, and you going to go to Pakistan. After that, we went to Pakistan. Q. Never finding out what the purpose was of going to Kenya, It was kept confidential from you, isn't
somewhere for working over there, and sometimes, because the envelope I have, the documents I give to the Egyptian guy. Q. Were you ever told the reason that you were going to
know Banshiri, he tried to work in horn of Africa, in Djibouti and Kenya and Yemen and that region. Q. A. Q. Anything else? No. In your bayat, you were also told to preserve the money of
Al Qaeda, is that right? A. Q. Yes. Part of that would be taking an oath not to steal from Al
al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. And you swore a bayat not to steal from Al Qaeda. Correct. There is no dispute among scholars, Islamic scholars,
about the wrongfulness of stealing for yourself when you are not starving, isn't that right? A. Q. Yes. You also were told in your bayat that your superiors must
follow Islamic law. A. Q. Correct. That unless they follow Islamic law you don't have to do
what they ask, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And you were told that you should obey your leaders as
much as possible. A. Q. Yes. And that meant that if you believed that they were doing
or saying or asking you to do something that was not Islamically correct, you did not have to obey them. that right? A. Q. Could you repeat. That meant that if you believed your superior told you to Isn't
do something that was not Islamically correct, you did not have to listen to him, isn't that right? A. We talk about it. If he tell me something is not right,
we talk.
Like first time was -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1000
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
because they didn't like that orphanage, would you do it? A. What mean orphanage? (Interpreted)
No, I don't believe. Q. A. Q. Because it would be unIslamic, wouldn't it? Yes. If one of your leaders told you that, see that boy on the I don't like him, he looks different, go and kill
street? him. A. Q. A.
Would you go and kill him? No. Because it would be unIslamic, right? No, but if he is in building with other military people it But nobody tell you go and kill that But if the baby inside
building with military and other staff, that difference. Q. Thank you, Mr. Al-Fadl. Am I correct that if you are told
that you should do something that you personally did not believe was Islamic, that you had not only the right but the responsibility not to participate? A. Isn't that correct? There is no
clear, they tell you what the purpose of fatwah, what the benefit for what we doing. Everything they explain everything
for you, why they make fatwah, what's the benefit from that attack or why they doing that. There is no one come and tell
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
council and meeting and lecture. Q. The purpose of these meetings and lectures were to
convince you that whatever the order was was Islamically correct, isn't that right? A. It is not only Islamic, because they follow specific Some scholars, they don't believe what we doing. So
scholar.
when you say Islamic scholars, that mean all the scholars agree. Q. Some scholars don't agree what we doing.
If the scholars did not agree and you were not convinced
that it was Islamically correct, you would not do it, is that correct? A. Q. A. If they say fatwah, yes, I do it. Even if the Islamic scholars disagreed? We talk about the scholars in a group. THE COURT: what happens? THE WITNESS: to do it, yes. Q. Aren't there other scholars that the people in al Qaeda That mean it's fatwah. If they ask me If the scholars in al Qaeda agree, then
always discussed? A. Q. Yes. When you say scholars, in al Qaeda you had, I guess you
called Abu Hajer, he was not even a member of al Qaeda, was he? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1002 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
A.
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q.
Was one of the scholars you are talking about Abu Hajer? Yes. He was not even a member, to your knowledge, of al Qaeda,
is that correct? A. Q. What I believe, he is one of our people in al Qaeda. Didn't you say that you did not know and other people said
that he was not? A. Yes. I never see him -MR. FITZGERALD: finish the answer? THE COURT: A. Yes. He never tell me I am member Objection, your Honor. May he
of al Qaeda.
until I left al Qaeda, he is arguing and talking about the stuff in guesthouse, talking about stuff near Bin Laden, and make fatwah and make a speech. All that for me, if he is not
al Qaeda member, he can't do that. Q. Didn't Abu Rida tell you that he was not a member of al
Qaeda? A. Yes, some people say that. Some people, they say he is
not al Qaeda member, but he help al Qaeda agenda. Q. Wasn't Mr. Bin Laden in contact with religious scholars in
Saudi Arabia? A. Yes, he got two scholars. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1003 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
Q.
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Saudi Arabia? A. Yes, Salman al Auda and Safar al Hawali. MR. SCHMIDT: for you. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Didn't he tell you about what their beliefs were? Could you repeat the question. Didn't he tell you what their beliefs were? Who is tell me? Mr. Bin Laden. The scholars -- withdrawn. We will try to get the spelling later
Weren't you aware of those scholars' belief that force should not be used in the land of the holy places? A. Well, if you let me just answer. Safar al Hawali, he He
wrote a book about what he know, and we have discussion. say war, yes, but innocent people is not right. war is yes. Q. And the book is named Kashfel Kuma.
But make a
right? A. Q. This what Safar al Hawali believe, yes. Just like the Saudis said back in 1993 when someone raised
the idea of the Saudi embassy being bombed, they said no, no innocents. A. Q. A. Yes. Isn't that the Saudi belief? Not -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1004 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2
Q. A.
Isn't that the Saudi belief, Mr. Al-Fadl? Let me answer. Some of our membership, they don't believe
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
in trying to kill innocent, some of the members, and they left the group. But the people that support the fatwah, they stay
in group and that -THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: A. Q. A. Q. Let him finish. I apologize.
And I remember that in '93. 9 -'93 or '94. So now you are telling us for the first time that the
people who didn't believe in killing innocents all left in 1993? A. Q. This is what I remember. Is that what you are telling us now? MR. FITZGERALD: A. Q. A. Q. That what I remember. Remember now? Yes. You never mentioned it to anybody before, did you? MR. FITZGERALD: A. Objection to form. Objection to form.
mind and I try to give you right answer. Q. Isn't it a fact that the group that talked about the
bombing of the Saudi embassy is the Islamic Jihad of Egypt? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1005 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2
Wasn't that right? A. It's not only that. My first answer, when the people talk
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
about the attack inside Egypt, some people, they left the group, they say that's not good thing to do. Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, you told us before that the person who raised
the question of bombing an American Embassy in Saudi Arabia was an Egyptian jihad member? A. Q. Yes, Abu el Masry. When Sheikh Rahman was arrested in the United States -- do
you remember that? A. Q. Yes. The Egyptian jihad people wanted to do something in
revenge, isn't that right? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. And nothing was done, isn't that right? Yes. No one would agree to kill innocents in response to that,
isn't that correct, Mr. Al-Fadl? A. Q. Let me answer. I asked you a question. If you can't answer it, don't
Now you can respond to that request. A. I remember some people, they left the group, they say we
don't want to do things immediately, we don't like that, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1006 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3
Bin Laden say we do, but this is going to take time. Q. You never said that to the government. What you said to
the government, isn't that correct, that nothing was done and
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
the Egyptian jihad members left because of it; isn't that what you said? A. No, not all of the jihad group. What I tell them, some of
people, but not all the group. Q. Thirteen to 20 members who were in Sudan at that time
left, is that right? A. Q. Could you repeat. Thirteen to 20 Egyptian Islamic jihad members left the
Sudan at that time. A. Q. Yes, it could be that, yes. You were very much involved with the NIF when you came
back to the Sudan, isn't that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You worked for the NIF, didn't you? Yes. In fact, you were under orders from the NIF to deliver
weapons to the NIF militia in its civil war in the south of Sudan, isn't that right? A. Q. At that time in southwest Sudan, yes. At that time, that was under the authority of the NIF, the
government of Sudan. A. Yes, under militia headquarters. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1007 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3
Q.
And you disobeyed the orders and they put you in jail,
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
And eventually you came out and you went to work in Usama
Bin Laden's businesses, isn't that right? A. Q. Yes. And then after a period of time you went back to work for
the NIF. A. Q. Yes. The NIF were the people who were asking you about this
assassination plot against al Mahdi, isn't that correct? A. Q. Correct. In fact, you have always been an employee of the NIF since
you returned to the Sudan, haven't you? A. Q. Yes. And you always reported to the NIF about what Bin Laden
was doing since Bin Laden came to the Sudan, isn't that right? A. I do both. I take from Bin Laden to NIF, from NIF to Bin
Laden. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. So you played both sides, don't you? Yes. To your own advantage? Yes. Isn't that right? Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1008 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4
Q. A. Q. A.
And you got paid by the NIF, didn't you? Yes. They rewarded you. Yes.
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q.
How much did they pay you? I don't remember now. You didn't tell Bin Laden that you were getting paid by
the NIF for spying on him, did you? A. Q. A. No, but he know I work for the delegation in Sudan. But he didn't know that you spy on him. They say the information you bring from Bin Laden group,
we have great relationship with him, we try to make everything great for him. We just want to make sure nobody going to make
something wrong against him or nobody want to do something inside the group. Q. The NIF used you to keep a short leash on Mr. Bin Laden,
is that right? A. Yes, anything happen in our group, I tell them and I make
interview for new people coming into Al Qaeda group in Sudan. Q. The NIF, the government of the Sudan, right, was able to
obtain weapons on its own from eastern European countries, weren't they, and China? A. Q. Yes. You told us that you embezzled $110,000 from Mr. Bin
Laden, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1009 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4
A. Q.
Yes. In fact, back in 1991, not only did you go to jail for
disobeying an order, you went to jail for passing a bad check. A. Yes.
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
so you could go to the United States. A. Q. Could you repeat your question. Back in 1986 when your father was out of the country and
your brother was running one of the oil presses, he gave you a check that was in Sudanese pounds, it was approximately $600, that you used to buy your airplane ticket to the United States; isn't that right? A. No. My older brother, he runs a business for my dad, and
he make a letter to the embassy for my dad, he give me the money because he say my dad he want to do that, and this what happened. I didn't take any money without my dad order.
That's never happened. Q. You told us that you took $110,000 from Bin Laden, is that
correct? A. Q. A. Yes. What company were you working for at that time? Laden International company, Taba Investment, and Qudurat
Transportation. Q. You told us here that what you used that money for was to
buy some residential -- to buy some plots of land for your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1010 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5
brother and your sister and you, is that right? A. Q. No, my sister, and I buy the other land under my name. Didn't you use some of the money to build a factory for
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
in Umduhrman -A. Q. A. No. -- called Abu Al-Muwaffaq Oil Press? No. My dad help him, because my dad he got three
companies and he help him to make that factory, not me. Q. Didn't you tell a government agent on October 21, 1996,
that you embezzled large sums of money from Bin Laden in 1994 and used to buy for yourself many residential lots in Umduhrman and al Jerafees, and also used the money to build a factory for your Adel in Umduhrman known as the Abu Al-Muwaffaq Oil Press? A. Q. No. I am going to show you what has been marked as 3501-45,
page 147, and I ask the interpreter to read the last paragraph to him. May I approach the witness, your Honor? THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: Yes. How much longer?
(Interpreter complies) A. No, that's never happen. I tell them I got the money and
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1011 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 I buy residential but not factory for my brother. Q. So is it your testimony now that you never told an agent
of the United States government that you used some of the money you stole to help your brother build that oil press factory?
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
Some of the ways that you stole this money was that you
diverted commodities to friends of yours to sell, isn't that right? A. Would she help me. (Interpreted)
Yes, I sell the stuff for them and they give me commission. Q. You didn't sell the stuff for them, you diverted some of
the oil that was coming in through Mr. Bin Laden's connections to a friend of yours who then sold it and split the profits with you, isn't that right? A. What I remember, I sold the stuff for them and they give They sell it and they give me the money back
me commission.
and I got the commission. Q. You never collected money for Mr. Bin Laden of the
commodities that you gave your friends, isn't that right? A. I don't understand what you say. (Interpreted)
What we do, we sell the stuff, and when I sell the stuff to them they give me commission, and I bring the money back to the company, and I take the commission. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1012 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6
Q. A. Q.
What commodities did you do this with? Sugar and oil and soap.
(Interpreted)
Laden's lawyers because of one of your sugar deals, isn't that right? A. Yes.
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q.
His name is Sadeek Ali Mohamed, isn't that right? Correct. He is one of the people that you diverted sugar to, he
sold it and didn't pay all the money he owed Mr. Bin Laden, isn't that right? A. No. I take the commission from Faizel and other guy but
not from al Sadeek. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You had another arrangement with -With Faizel but not with Sadeek. How much were you supposed to get from Mr. Sadeek? I don't take any money from al Sadeek. You made an arrangement where you gave him $600,000 of
sugar that he never paid back, did he? A. Q. A. Q. He paid some but not all of it. And he went to jail because of that. Yes. And they sold all of his property and businesses to pay
back. A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1013 12kkbin3 al-Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6
Q.
You complained that you were able to pay back only so much
money to Mr. Bin Laden, isn't that right? A. Q. A. Q. I pay back I think between 25 to $30,000. You still have assets worth money in the Sudan, don't you? Yes. You have the property in your name, isn't that right?
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
Yes. And you have your interest with your brother in the oil
press company, don't you? A. No. That's -- that's the company. That's under Islamic
National front.
Islamic National Front. Q. A. What assets do you have besides the property? I have Azrami company. It's under my name but it's
umbrella for Islamic National Front. Q. When you claimed you had nothing left to give Mr. Bin
Laden back, you had the properties that you used his money to buy. A. Yes. (Continued on next page)
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1014 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. Did you sell the properties to give the money back to
Mr. Bin Laden? A. Q. A. Q. I sell one between 25 to 30 thousand dollars back. Did you sell the other properties? No. Isn't it a fact that the American government is giving you
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
can't get your assets in the Sudan? A. Q. Could you repeat the question? Isn't it part of your agreement to get the loan from the
American government because you've given up your getting your assets in the Sudan? A. No, they say they going to get me twenty thousand to get
to start my life, is what they say. Q. But isn't it that you have substantial -- doesn't it say
that you have substantial assets in the Sudan that you cannot get to? A. Q. But how I'm here now, how I going to say this? Now, when, so you still had assets when you told Mr. Bin
Laden to his face that you had no more money to give him, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, that's correct. You lied to him to his face because you had -Yes. -- something that you had to give him, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1015 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A. Q.
Yes. Now, in fact you lied to Mr. Bin Laden or the other people
that you took this oath to their faces at least three times, right? A. Yes. You ask me why I did that and I tell him he took
money, Egyptian jihad people they got more right, they got more salary, some new people they got more salaries than the
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
people that start the group, and I explained that to him. Q. You Didn't tell Mr. Bin Laden that you were making money
from the NIF as well, did you? A. Q. No, he know, he know I work for the office. He knew that you were getting money not only from Tabba,
not only from al Qaeda, but also from the NIF for spying on him? A. Q. He knew? He knew I work for the office. The only reason that you told Al Tayyib that you did steal
the money is that they already had the proof against you, right? A. He asked me first time and I say no, I didn't take any
money. Q. Right. They asked you again and you said no, I didn't And then the third time they had the proof
and you knew that you were in the corner and you said, oh, yes I did take it? A. He asked me. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1016 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Q. A.
Isn't that what happened? What he tell me, first of all, I tell him I got
commission, I say, yes, what I sell the sugar and oil sell, I got commission. Q. Isn't that the same thing that you did when you talked to
the Americans about your stealing? A. Q. No. You didn't tell the Americans that you were a thief, did
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
you? A. Q. Yeah, it take me two days until I tell them. It took you two months and thirty times to tell them,
isn't that right? A. No, when they finish the three weeks about all the
question about group, after that they tell me now we finished everything, but we need to know something about you, I told them I don't have anything yet and they say no -Q. A. I apologize? They say no, we know something about you. We understand
you did ask, but you have to tell this because we know it. And the second day I tell them, yes, I took money from Bin Laden. Q. You started talking to the Americans on September 7, 1996,
is that right? A. Q. I don't remember the date. About that time, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1017 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
A. Q.
Yes, yes. And you told the Americans on October 21st about the 27th
time that you met with them, that you were a thief, right? A. Q. I don't understand what you say. Is that right? You told them about seven weeks, six weeks
later after seeing them about twenty-seven times that you were a thief, isn't that right? A. Well, first time when I saw them we talk about the group,
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
They ask me
everything, but the last two days they start ask me, we know now everything about the group. We want to know something I say I don't have If you
them, yes, I took money from Bin Laden. THE COURT: (Recess) (Continued on next page) We'll take our midafternoon recess.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1018 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 (In open court; jury not present) THE COURT: All right. Please be seated. I asked
the juror whose mother passed away how he was doing, how he was and he said, I'm all right. I'm hanging in there. I The
Let's try and complete this witness today. understand Mr. Schmidt has about 15 more minutes.
government tells me it has about 15 minutes of redirect. Let's make every effort to complete this witness today, and then to take up any matters relating to tomorrow's agenda.
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Will you tell them to bring the jury in. (Continued on next page)
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1019 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 (Jury present; witness resumed) THE COURT: BY MR. SCHMIDT: Q. Mr. Al Fadl, the only reason you told the Americans about Mr. Schmidt, you may resume.
being a thief that is because you thought they already knew about it, isn't that correct? A. Q. Yeah, they tell me that they say we know about that. And if they didn't say that, you would have never told
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
If they don't ask me, yeah. That's correct. Now, when did you start working at al Sadani?
A. Q. A. Q.
Maybe in '94, year '94. Near the end of '94? I didn't remember which month, but I think during '94. Now, you also got into financial trouble with al Sadani,
didn't you? A. Q. A. Yes. There was money missing from al Sadani, isn't that right? When the money missing because we used the money to
support some of the Islamic National Front, we spend the money for the people work, bring the militia, like that, and the government, the Islamic National Front issued a loan from the bank to support the money we spent. Until 1995 you don't give
me the money and that's why I stopped working them, and I went SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1020 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Kalif Sadur. Q. You think the NIF accused you of stealing money, isn't
that right? A. It's not like that, but because somebody tell them I give
Egyptian guy he wrote a book against Tayyib and he tell them Ab Bakkar he did that, he give Abu Bakar had El Masry's money to wrote book against Tayyib. Q. A. Q. So then the NIF was angry at you, right? Yes. And they accused you of stealing money from al Sadani,
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
they accused you? A. Yes, they don't pay the money back and they don't give me
the loan from Khartoum bank. Q. And that's right, they said that you had the money you had
to pay it back, right? A. Yes, because the loan, is a reason in my name, my older If any
brother name, so all the papers it's our name. problem, we got the problem. Q.
And you said that no, it wasn't, we didn't take the money,
these other two people from NIF took the money, right? A. It's not like that, because they should, when I spend the
money for the Islamic National Front benefit they should give me a loan from Khartoum bank, and every time I went to them I went Dr. Abaka Kabir, Dr. Muslak Sabir, and I told them we spent a lot of money and we don't have a lot of money and we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1021 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
have to bring that money back to the bank, but later on I hear somebody tell that office I here to make a tape, wrote book against Tayyib. Q. They said you took the money and you said no, it was
Dr. Abd al-Mun'Imalkhabir, and Mohammed Hashim Hasan, and Dr. Abdallah Mohammed Yusuf. not me, right? A. No, they didn't take it for themselves. Money spending You said they took the money,
for the Islamic National Front work. Q. And you said that you forgot to get a receipt from them,
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
that's why you couldn't show that they took the money? A. It's clear you know we spend the money for the work and I
went to Bashihar, he runs the group at that time and I went to Ahmed Muli Aman. office. I tell them the money we spend it for the
I buy car for Abdel Munim Gabir for the war, we buy
house furniture, and a lot of people try to bring the work for Musada Sinna group, from Narin group, from Muslim brother, so I tell them this money I spent it for the work. Q. Well, then what about the three people, didn't they come
and say, yes, he gave, we got the money, and it was for Sudan? A. Well, every time I went over there. He tell me, we going
to give the loan from Khartoum bank and I got letter from Ahmed Alima, Dr. Isman the manager of Khartoum bank and in the letter he tell me, he do great job and if he give him a loan. That's great. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1022 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Q. A.
So you did a great job but nobody believed you? No, they believe me, but somebody tell them I give Abu al And at that time he
got his own group, is he got his own group it's fight between NIF by themselves. Q. Now, besides this problem with the money from al Sadani
there was also the loan money that you owed, isn't that right? A. Yes. That's why we want to cover that loan because the
money for the NIF it's come from the bank. Q. In other words, based on what you say everybody else has
caused you problems that may put in jail for owing money to
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
the bank, is that what you're saying? A. Yeah, they believe I give Abu Kar El Masry, money because
he make tape and they think or somebody I think tell them I give the money to Abu Kar. Q. And so none of this was your fault. It was everybody
else's fault, right? A. Anyway, you know that Islamic National Front is a lot of
companies they owned by people, but they do the government job. It's like umbrella companies, and is a reason that time
is the same, we, myself I own the company, but I run for Islamic National Front business. Q. Now, who, which companies were being audited to determine
how much you took out, was that the Bin Laden companies or is that the NIF companies? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1023 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
A. Q.
Could you repeat your question? Which companies were being audited to determine how much Was that the Bin Laden companies or the NIF
No, we talk now about NIF company. They had accountants audit your books, right? I don't understand what you say. They had accountants examine your records from the
company, didn't they? (Witness consults interpreter) A. For Sarine, Sarine company?
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A.
Yes. No, I run the business, I manage at that time for Sarine. I do everything, me and I hire people with me.
I do the bank. Q.
Which are the companies that audited the books were Was that the Bin Laden companies?
examined? A.
A.
examine the records to determine whether you stole money from the companies? A. Q. I think you talk about $110,000. So they had, so Bin Laden sent his attorney's office to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1024 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
audit the books at Laden International, is that right? A. I don't remember that what I know Faraki asked me the same
time and he say somebody come and tell him you stole the money and I tell him, yes, I got commission. Q. Didn't they audit the books at the company that you were
working for on two separate occasions? A. I don't remember any lawyer or any attorney talk to me
about that. Q. Didn't you tell the government on October 21, 1996 that
the legal office headed by Hasim abu Baka Al Jali did an investigation jointly by Bin Laden and the NIF and they concluded that you stole money?
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
companies he bought Sudan the salt farm he want me to bring the license, because it's my name. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, I'm asking you what you said to the Didn't you tell them that there was
a joint audit of the books of the company that you ran in 1995? A. Q. A. Q. A. I don't remember that. Did you tell them that after that -I don't remember. -- there was a further audit for a month long? I don't remember, but what I remember when Ajani he talk
to me. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1025 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Q.
You don't remember, Mr. Al Fadl -THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: Let him finish. I thought he was finished, Judge.
A.
Sudan, it's under my name and he ask we need to switch the name to other person. Q. Well, we'll do it this way. I'm going to show you and ask
then the interpreter to translate the area that I boxed on 350145, 41, 47. May I approach the witness, your Honor? THE COURT: Yes.
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.
(Pause) What was the question? Repeat the question. This is the
same I tell you, I know Mahif is one of our group sit down with me and they say the houses, the farm and we want to switch it to somebody else that in your name. Q. That isn't the question, Mr. Al Fadl. There were two
separate long audits of the businesses that you were running, isn't that correct? A. Q. Yes. And both of those audits resulted in the determination
that you were a thief, isn't that correct? A. Yes, I remember in '95 they sat down with me and they tell
me, he tell me we have proved you stole money and we need all SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1026 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
the property under your name to switch it to somebody else, and we need that money back, and I remember that in '95. Q. And the only reason that you finally admitted to Mr. Bin
Laden and Mr. Al Tayyib was because two times they had audits and it was absolutely certain you couldn't deny it any more, you were caught, wasn't that correct? A. Yes, he tell me somebody tell us you took commission from
the sugar and oil. Q. And that was the last time when you had this
conversation -- withdrawn. The last time that you actually saw Mr. Bin Laden was in the summer of 1995, isn't that right? A. I don't remember the month but in '95.
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q.
It was the summertime of 1995? I really don't remember but I remember in '95. Well, let's see if I can find where you told the
government -- didn't you tell the government back in 1996 that the last time that you saw Mr. Bin Laden was the summer of 1995? A. I remember in '95 but I really don't remember the month or
I remember if I say summer or winter. Q. A. Well, the winter meaning in January or February? No, the summer in Sudan between March until September and We have long
the winter start from November until January. summer in Sudan, six months.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1027 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. So what is your best guess as to when you saw him last,
what month? A. Q. Probably between May and September or May and October. And you didn't leave until February of '95, is that
correct? A. Q. Yes, correct. You were still going about your business having financial
problems with al Sadani, isn't that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And it wasn't until February that you left? Yes. And the reason that you left was because you were afraid
of the NIF?
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A. Q. it?
And Bin Laden, also. You hadn't seen Bin Laden for months? But I see the people groups, the membership. But nobody bothered you, the NIF was your concern, wasn't
MR. FITZGERALD: A.
Your Honor, --
it was Bin Laden talk to him and he say we want to know why you do that. We not care about money, but we care about you
the first one that join the group. Q. A. When was that? I really don't remember the month. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1028 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
Q. A.
Was that after the summer of 1995? I don't remember really, but I remember that the last
conversation between me and him and I went back to Mahib and I went back to Abu Rida al Suni and they tell me the best thing for you if you bring all the money. Q. I'm going to show you what's marked 3501-45, page 2. I
ask you to read the area that has been circled. May I approach, your Honor? (Document handed to witness. interpreter) (Pause) Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to the last time -Does that refresh your recollection? Witness consults with
withdrawn. A.
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
Last time that you saw Mr. Bin Laden was the summer of
1995? A. Q. Yes. And the time that you left Sudan was in February of 1996,
right? A. Q. Yes. Now, you came to the United States and you didn't follow
the visa to go to school, did you? A. Q. Could you repeat the question? You went to the United States under false pretenses,
didn't you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1029 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
A. Q. A.
Well, I went to the embassy and gave me I20. For a student and you never went to school? No, you're right. THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Are you --
That's why.
I'm finishing up, your Honor. I know you're finishing up, but don't
You took an oath to your first wife and then you violated
that, didn't you? A. Q. I don't know what you mean by oath with wife? You married your first wife and without permission you
went and married somebody in the United States, isn't that right?
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
What I tell you in our religion some scholars they say you
marry the second one, you don't have to tell the first one. Some scholars say you should tell the first one you going to marry. divorce. Q. A. Q. A. Second one advised you and you got married illegally? No. In the United States? No, we went to the church and all haka comes and we make If she want to save you she can, if not, she got
the -Q. But the church doesn't allow people to marry a second wife SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1030 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
in the United States? A. I still don't know. I'm teenager, I don't know the law,
and I don't know. Q. A. Q. You came and you took an oath to al Qaeda, didn't you? Yes, bayat. And a number of things in there like not stealing you
violated that oath, didn't you? A. Q. Yes, I stole some money. You went to the bank and promised to pay money back and
problem, because they say you going to bring the loan from Khartoum bank and they never did. with them. Q. That wasn't your fault, right? And that's why the problem
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
letter to Dr. Masorji, manager Khartoum bank, and all they say we going to give you loan, we going to give you loan and when somebody tell me Abu al Masry. THE COURT: repetition. Q. My question, your Honor, did not call for that whole I didn't want to interrupt him. Mr. Al Fadl, is there any oath that you've ever taken SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1031 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - cross This question is only going to lead to
answer.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
in your life that you have kept? A. Q. A. Yes. What's that? Muslim. I do my prayer, and I believe God, I believe my
prophet Mohammed. Q. A. Q. A. You select the oaths to your God that -No. -- you decide to follow, isn't that right? No. When I join the al Qaeda a lot of al Qaeda group I
it's not right job, some because it's good job, some because it's not good job. When we are in Pakistan we have only some
book, al Qaeda group we read, but when we went to Sudan it's more chance for me and other members they read other books, they enjoy other scholars, they go to its mosque and that's the difference when we reach Sudan, it's a lot of difference.
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
BY MR. SCHMIDT: Q. Thank you, Mr. Al Fadl. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: You welcome. Redirect. Yes, Judge.
If I may approach the witness with 3501-42. MR. SCHMIDT: May I have a moment, your Honor, so I
can get up to speed? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1032 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. Q.
received in evidence as defense exhibit A, and I also approach with what has been marked as 3501-22. Now, sir, if you look at 3501-41 the copy of defense exhibit A, that's a document that you looked at the other day and was offered in evidence by Mr. Baugh. seeing that document? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And is that document in Arabic or English? It's in Arabic. Did you look at 3501-42, the other document, one page. (Witness consults with interpreter) THE INTERPRETER: All of it? Do you recall
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q. A. Q. A.
Yes. Did you sign the document 3501-42? Yes. And was that in Europe? Yes. MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, subject to redaction
which are to be discussed with counsel at a later point, I just would offer 3501-42 as a translation of defense exhibit A. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1033 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q.
Subject to the? Subject to the redaction, yes. Received subject to redaction, and that
(Government's Exhibit 2 received in evidence) And, sir, if I could just ask to be displayed on the
screen for the witness and counsel only, Government Exhibit 1. Mr. Al Fadl, if you can look at the TV screen to your left I'm going to page through Government Exhibit 1 and my only question to you is if you recognize what the document is. Can you see the document from where you are? I'm handing you a hard copy of Government Exhibit 1. If you look through the document and tell us whether or not you recognize what that document is? A. Yes.
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q. A. Q.
Do you know what that document is? I believe this is the second agreement. Is that the agreement you testified that you signed once
you came to America? A. Yes. MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer that
exhibit again subject to redaction which we can discuss later. THE COURT: redaction. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1034 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect Received without objection subject to
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A. Q. Yes. Q.
(Government's Exhibit 1 received in evidence) The other day Mr. Baugh asked you a question about whether
or not you were aware that the Witness Protection Program expended approximately $794,000 on you and your family. My
question to you is, whether or not you are aware the medical expenses, the medical component of those expenses constituted approximately $308,000? MR. BAUGH: THE COURT: Objection to the form. Overruled.
Are you aware, sir, that just the expense for documents
for you and your family totaled approximately $132,000? A. Yes, if you -MR. BAUGH: Objection. You have to wait for the Judge.
Overruled.
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q.
Yes, sir.
were for. A. Q. A. Q.
Because for my -Let's not get into the medical procedure. Okay. Now, sir, we talked, you were asked questions about a
fatwa, and you talked about whether the scholars agree or disagree and my question to you is this. If the scholars
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1035 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. within al Qaeda cannot agree among each other, if scholars in al Qaeda disagree, do they issue a fatwa? MR. HERMAN: Judge, objection. I assume he's going
to answer based on his knowledge. THE COURT: His knowledge and his understanding, yes.
scholars, the scholars within al Qaeda disagree on whether something is Islamically correct or not, does al Qaeda issue a fatwa? A. No, if they don't, if you're not agreed, they not issue
understand that the al Qaeda scholars agree on what has been issued? A. Q. Yes, they agree. Now, you were asked questions by Mr. Schmidt about
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
you were not told the reason that you were going to Hungary to meet with a person. A. Q. Yes. And you did testify that you were told that the reason for Do you remember those questions?
going to Zagreb had to do with business, correct? A. Q. Yes. So your understanding was that the business in Hungary was
secret? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1036 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 question. Q.
This is a
person whom you were supposed to met in Hungary? A. What I told from Abu Sarudi they told me when you go to
the guest house, and somebody in our group he going to meet you over there, and follow what he tell you. Q. So the person you were to meet was a Lebanese guy within
your group, correct? A. Q. Yes. Do you know whether or not that Lebanese person was Wadih
El Hage? A. Q. A. Q. I really don't know. When was it that you went to Budapest? What, the time? Yes.
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A. Q.
I think during '92, maybe September '92. And do you know as you sit here today whether or not Wadih
El Hage was traveling in Eastern Europe during September and the fall of 1992? A. I really don't remember. MR. SCHMIDT: September 1992. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1037 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect Objection to the form of the question,
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. A. Q. Yes. Q.
MR. FITZGERALD:
Okay.
Hage was traveling in even Europe in September of 1992? A. Q. I don't know. I really don't know.
or not you told the United States government hundreds of names during the course of three months of being interviewed and whether or not you did not mention the name of Wadih El Hage until October 23, 1997. Do you recall those questions?
Do you recall stating that you were not sure whether you
had mentioned the name Wadih before that, do you recall that? MR. SCHMIDT: your Honor. THE COURT: Rephrase the question. Objection. That is not his testimony,
prior to the date that Mr. Schmidt gave you October 23, 1997?
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A.
don't know what year and what month. Q. Let me approach you with what has been marked as 3501-45,
page 146. MR. SCHMIDT: What number is that? 3501-45, page 146.
MR. FITZGERALD:
I ask you if that refreshes your recollection that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1038 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
you told the United States government about Wadia in October 1996? (Witness consults with interpreter) (Pause) A. Q. Yes. Now, you recall earlier Mr. Schmidt asked you questions
about a discussion within al Qaeda as to whether or not you have an attack in Saudi Arabia that would kill civilians? you recall those questions? A. Q. Yes. He asked you whether or not a person from el jihad had Do
propose the attack, do you recall that question? A. Q. Could she help me? I'll speak slower. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. Who was the person within al jihad who proposed the attack
20 21 22 23 24 25
Arabia about Muslims. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And was Abu haf el Masry part of al Qaeda? Yes, he's a second guy in committee. So he was both a member of al jihad and al Qaeda? Yes. And you stated earlier in response to a question to Mr. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1039 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
Schmidt that you were first told that if you joined al Qaeda you could only belong to one group. Can you explain to the jury how Abu haf el Masry could belong to both al jihad and al Qaeda? A. Because the jihad group, the work for al Qaeda agenda and
for jihad agenda, but always al Qaeda agenda first. Q. If a person belongs to al jihad it's not considered a
violation of a promise to only work for al Qaeda? MR. SCHMIDT: question. THE COURT: I know you're trying to watch the clock Objection, your Honor, leading
and I think it's causing you to ask leading questions. MR. FITZGERALD: Q. A. Okay.
Could a person belong to both al jihad and al Qaeda? If what I say you can't join another group, the other
group they don't work for al Qaeda either, but like we have groups they work and they made bayat to al Qaeda agenda and jihad group, one of those groups. Q. Now, you were asked questions earlier by Mr. Schmidt as to
20 21 22 23 24 25
whether or not the first time you ever told the government that Bin Laden wanted to retaliate against the United States for the arrest of Sheik Abu Rahman was today, do you recall that conversation? A. Q. Yes. Let me show you 3501-8, page 4 and I'll direct your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1040 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
attention to the last sentence, actually the last three sentences of the top paragraph on page 4 of 3501-8, and ask you if that reflect your recollection -- well, refreshes your recollection that you stated that as early as November, 1997? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. Now, you've testified that approximately 13 to 20 people
left al Qaeda when there was not quick retaliation against the United States for the arrest of Sheik Abdul Rahman? A. Q. Yes. Can you tell the jury how many people left al Qaeda when
Bin Laden stated that America was the head of the snake and the main enemy? MR. SCHMIDT: A. I see none. THE COURT: A. Q. Nobody. Now, Mr. Schmidt asked you earlier today whether or not I didn't hear the answer. Objection.
there was an awful lot of business going on in the Sudan when Bin Laden was there.
21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1041 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. THE COURT: Sustained.
military going on in the Sudan in 1992, 1993, and 1994? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You talked about al Qaeda group? Yes. Yes. You were moving weapons? Yes. Explosives? Yes. Training? Yes. Trying to buy uranium? Yes. Trying to get chemical weapons? Yes. During that time, during the entire time that you were in
the Sudan during the entire time from 1991, '92, '93, and '94, did anyone in al Qaeda ever tell you that you could not discuss al Qaeda business military work in front of Wadia El
21 22 23 24 25
Hage? A. No. MR. FITZGERALD: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Thank you. Nothing further.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1042 12K1BIN4 al Fadl - recross/Herman 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 question. Q. Here's the question. Did you say the al Qaeda organization has members who made bayat swore to the emir the prince of the organization MR. BAUGH: THE COURT: MR. HERMAN: THE COURT: I have one question or two. Nothing on behalf of Odeh. Briefly. Yes. My format on recross is to begin by
making a reference to the testimony that has been elicited since the last time you examined the witness. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN: Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you've been asked a lot of questions about
fatwas and whether a fatwa can be challenged if it's not Islamically correct. question. Did you say in a sworn affidavit that al Qaeda organization, and this is 3501-40, an affidavit which if you want to look at it I'm going to tell you that you signed it, so if you want look at it to refresh your recollection -THE COURT: Finish your question. Finish your All right. Let me just ask you this
22 23 24 25
I didn't understand. (Witness consults with interpreter) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1043
12K1BIN4 al Fadl - recross/Herman 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. THE COURT: Can we stay a few minutes later and Slow down. It's my fault. I rushed
Please restate your question. Here's the question, and if you need the interpreter, the
al Qaeda organization had members who made bayat, that is sworn allegiance to the emir prince of the organization, Usama Bin Laden? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You understand that? Yes. You said that? Yes. Did you say this? By taking this oath the member obliges
himself to follow those orders of Usama Bin Laden as long as they did not violate Islamic law? A. Q. A. Yes. Did you say that, yes or no? Yes. MR. HERMAN: That's all I have. Thank you, sir.
22 23 24 25 Q.
Mr. Cohn.
On redirect Mr. Fitzgerald asked you whether or not a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1044
12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Cohn 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 fatwa would be issued unless all the scholars agreed. remember that question and your answer to that? A. Q. Yes. And you said no, it would not. Is that right, that all Do you
the scholars had to agree? A. Q. A. Q. In al Qaeda group? In al Qaeda. Yes. And that was generally known, was it not, that no fatwa
would be issued unless all the scholars agreed that it was Islamically correct, is that right? A. Q. Yes. And that would be the power of the fatwa that everybody
would know that the scholars, that the Islamic scholars all agreed that that was Islamically correct under the law. that right? A. Q. Yes. And, therefore, there would be no reason to argue with Is
that if you were somebody who actually heard the fatwa, right? A. Q. Yes. But to obey the fatwa you of course had to hear what the
23 24 25
A. Q.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1045 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. A. Schmidt. BY MR. SCHMIDT: Q. What was the name of islamic scholars who were in al THE COURT: No cross on behalf of K.K. Mohammed. Mr.
Sustained. Scope.
the scope of the redirect. Q. You said that all of the scholars need to agree before a
fatwa was issued, isn't that your testimony? A. Q. Yes. Well, who are all of these scholars that have to agree? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: You may answer. Okay. What I remember now I remember Abu Ibrahim Irati, Same objection.
Abu farajimni, first Egyptian, Ditar Abu Mahis, Abu Mohamed Said Sharif, and Abu Mat Egyptian, and Bin Laden.
23 24 25
Q. A. Q.
Bin Laden? Yes, with Bin Laden. He's a religious scholar for the fatwa? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1046
12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Yes. Q. Q. A. No, he's not scholar, but he know a lot in jihad. He very
focused and he know a lot about jihad. Q. And what books or articles have the people that you said
Sustained.
I didn't hear.
There was no fatwa committee in al Qaeda, was there? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Objection, scope.
mentioned those scholars to you and we have book, we have books farida kalma, just focused about what jihad means, the fardh al ein and fardhal khafiya, and this is wrote by Egyptian guy, his name is Ibin Salam. Q. A. Q. Was he there? No, we use his book, because his book is focused on. There was a not a fatwa committee, it was a religious
committee?
24 25
A.
The religious committee and the fatwa the same because the
religious committee they doing the fatwa job. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1047 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
Q. A. Q.
The religious committee, not the fatwa committee? No, the fatwa, the most job about fatwa. Now, you told us that on in November of 1997 you had a
conversation about -- withdrawn. The first time that you mentioned anything about retaliation for the arrest of Sheik Rahman was in November of 1997, is that correct? MR. FITZGERALD: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: Q. A. Q. Is that right? When the people retaliation? No, the first discussion was in November of 1997. Is that Objection, scope.
right? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: discussion was. Q. A. Q. No? Your Honor, objection.
The question wasn't what the first You may answer that.
Overruled.
After the people -The first time that you spoke to an American about those
24 25
Q.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1048 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Q. I really don't remember the date or the year. Well, you had about forty different conversations with
American agents before you ever mentioned anything about the retaliation, isn't that right? A. It could be, yes. They ask the question. Whatever they
ask me, I answer. Q. The training that the government referred to that went on
in 1992, 1993 and 1994 in the Sudan while you were there was refreshing? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You're right.
No new person was trained, right? Could you say again? No new people were trained, is that right? The people they train only for light weapons. Now, when you, there was you saw type of training in
Damizine when you visited those two times, right? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: Objection.
training there was and I want to go into what that consists of. I think I have a right to do that on recross. THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Overruled. I'm overruled? Yes.
25
Q.
No chemical weapons, you never saw any type of chemical SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1049
12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. weapons anywhere in the Sudan even in the Civil War in the south of Sudan, isn't that right? A. Q. A. Q. What you mean about chemical weapons? You never saw any kind of chemical weapons, did you? Well, what I hear from the -Mr. Al Fadl, I asked you if you ever saw -MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. I'm not asking for rumors. Sustained. I have a list of
saying, I refer to the following question asked you on redirect, and I ask the following. Q. I refer to your answer that there were chemical weapons
were going on in 1992, 1993 and 1994 asked by the prosecutor earlier today. You said you never saw any chemical weapons in
the Sudan, is that correct, sir? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Yes or no? No, that's not correct. You saw chemical weapons? Yes, we have in Damazine house -That's what you saw? Yes, because the people -That's what you call chemical weapons, explosives?
25
A.
12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Yes. Now, the person that you described as Wadia you called an Q. MR. SCHMIDT: Okay. I have no further questions.
May I have a moment, your Honor? (Pause) MR. SCHMIDT: I'm sorry. I apologize.
redirect with a reference to a person name Wadia that was given on October 21, 1996, by you to government agents. Do you recall being asked that question on redirect?
unidentified Lebanese individual whose name, first name may be Wadia, isn't that right? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Objection to form.
there were three people who were dressed in suits that went to the US embassy one day. A. Q. Yes. And that people were making fun of them because they were Is that correct?
dressed in western attire as opposed to the normal Islamic attire that people wore? A. Q. Correct. And the person that you, people that you said went there That's not Mr. El Hage, right?
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1051 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Honor. MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I'm trying to limit this
and I'm asking fairly simple questions. MR. FITZGERALD: MR. SCHMIDT: Objection to the comment.
Now, one word Usama Algani, is that correct? Yes. And this Usama Algani is not Mr. El Hage, is that correct? What I remember he is abu -THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: Now ask him about the other two. I didn't get a yes out of him, your
hasn't answered that question. A. Q. A. Well, I say no. Thank you. But I tell you -THE COURT: THE WITNESS: No, that's all. Okay, okay. Just answer yes or no.
correct? A. Q. Yes. And the third person you described to the government
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1052 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. agents was an unidentified Lebanese individual apparently also a US citizen whose first real name may be Wadia. how you described that third person? MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. Isn't that
Yes, I tell them that if could be Wadia. MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Your Honor, I asked the question -Yes is the answer. Everything after yes
is stricken. Q. When they asked you more about this Wadia that you
mentioned for the first time you told them that this Wadia's name was Abu Ahmed? A. Q. A. Yes, because -Is that what you said, Abu Ahmed? Yes, we use different names. That's what I told them I
told them he go by Ahmed and he got another name and other name. Q. Isn't it a fact that Mr. El Hage's only name, any Abu name
that you used is Abu Abdullah is father of Abdullah, isn't that correct, Mr. Al Fadl, yes or no? A. I know, yes, I know him also by Abdullah Ginani and when
he asked me come in my mind, the same. Q. His oldest son is Abu Abdullah. You said that here in
court, isn't that right? A. I don't know about the son, but in our group you use
nickname even if you don't have kids, like when they give me
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1053 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. at work I don't have kids even, and still father of. Q. You have never mentioned anywhere here other than claiming
that the war name is Abu Ahmed, isn't that right? A. Q. Yes. You also said that this Abu Ahmed lived in the bachelors
quarters, isn't that right? A. Q. What you mean bachelor? You said bachelors, single men quarters. Didn't you tell
the government that? A. Q. I really don't remember. Let's look back at this. THE COURT: Yes. I don't remember. May I approach the witness?
(Document handed to witness) (Witness consults with interpreter) Yes, I remember that. May I have that back, please. You're saying that this
event occurred in the end of 1993, is that correct? A. Yes, I remember they asked me and I tell them that time he
came to the guest house as a single. Q. Is it your testimony that at the end of 1993 the Wadia or
Abu Ahmed that you're talking about lived in bachelor quarters in Khartoum, yes or no, Mr. Al Fadl? A. No, this is not, it's hard to say yes or no. What I mean
to them, he came to the guest house single, but I don't mean he have wife or no -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
1054 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. Q. You said --- because I didn't -You said that he lived in bachelor quarters, isn't that
correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. For me when say -Mr. Al Fadl, did you say that to the agents? Yes, I tell them I saw him in his house, single. Mr. Al Fadl, did you say that yes or no? Yes. Did you say this this man was about five foot eight, large
chest, almost blondish hair, over forty-five? A. I really don't remember that. (Witness handed document) (Witness consults with interpreter) I really don't remember if I say that or no. So you may have said he was a blondish man about
forty-five years old? A. Q. I really don't remember. Did you say that you didn't know whether he was in
Afghanistan? A. Q. No, he know he's Afghanistan. Did you say to the government on that day when you
described this Wadia that you didn't know if this Wadia was ever in Afghanistan? A. I really don't remember. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1055
12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. Take a look at that bottom again. See if that refresh
your recollection? (Witness consults with interpreter) I really don't remember. Whoever this Wadia was, this is the only information that
you had about him until the government told you about, asked you about Wadia El Hage a year later, isn't that right. A. They asked me a lot of questions about him and he give
them answers. Q. This is the only thing that you ever mentioned during
those thirty-five or so meetings with US government representatives in 1996, isn't that right? A. Yes. MR. SCHMIDT: REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. First, Mr. Al Fadl, would you tell us what bachelor What is that? No further questions.
quarters are? A.
It's a guest house for people when they came for visit and
they go back. Q. A. Q. Is that the name of a building? Yes. Do they check you to see if you have a wife or children
when you go into the building? A. No, because you, maybe you live in other country and you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1056 12K1BIN4
Al Fadl - redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. leave your wife and family over there but you come for short visit and you go back. Q. Mr. Schmidt just asked you if the only name that Mr. El Wasn't he known by the
Hage was known by was Abu Abdullah. name Abu Sabbur? MR. SCHMIDT: Did he have an --
Like what I said before, I known by Abu Sabbur. Let me show you 3501-45, page 146 which is the page that Mr. Schmidt asked
if that was the only information that you told the US government. Is it a fact that you told the government on that
date that this person referred to as unidentified was Lebanese, was a United States citizen, was in the Sudan, was name Wadia, he worked with Abu Al Yemi, at Laden International, he visited US and Russia on unknown business, and he had a good relationship with Usama Bin Laden. correct? A. Q. Yes. How many people in the Sudan at that time were US citizens Is that
from Lebanon named Wadia? MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: Objection. There is no way of knowing.
And, finally, Mr. Schmidt asked you whether or not you did
not tell the government in the first however many meetings SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1057 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - redirect
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there were about a planned retaliation against United States for the arrest of Sheik Omr Abdul Rahman? MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor. His testimony
was that there wasn't a plan, not that there was a plan. THE COURT: Q. Restate your question.
to the government about a discussion concerning whether to retaliate against the United States for the arrest of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman. A. Q. Yes. Let me show you 3501-45, pages 1 through 9, and I ask you Do you recall that question.
to look in particular at pages 6 and 9 and ask you if that refreshes your recollection as to whether or not in the third meeting with the government you laid out four different options that were being discussed as to how to retaliate against the United States for the arrest of Sheik Abdul Rahman. (Witness consults with interpreter) THE INTERPRETER: question? Q. The question is, did that refresh your recollection The witness is asking what is the
whether or not in the third meeting with representatives of the United States government you described particular plans that had been discussed for retaliation against the United States because of the arrest of Sheik Abdul Rahman. It's a
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yes or no question.
(Witness consults with interpreter) THE INTERPRETER: MR. FITZGERALD: Which paragraphs? The ones that are underlined, look
at page 6 and page 9 in blue ink. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Yes. MR. FITZGERALD: MR. SCHMIDT: RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHMIDT: Q. Mr. Al Fadl, this group of Sheik Rahman group had their Nothing further.
own residences, separate from -MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Q. Objection, scope.
I didn't hear.
This group was -THE COURT: Which group are we talking about?
Q.
residences of other al Qaeda members, weren't they? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Q. Objection, scope.
Yes, sustained.
discussions took place about targeting American interests, isn't that right? MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1059 12K1BIN4 Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt 1 THE COURT: Sustained. The only question that was
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asked was the date on which he spoke to the US agents about this matter. MR. SCHMIDT: He brought up the knowledge of other
ones, your Honor, and it's not because it's personal knowledge. question. THE COURT: I'll allow it. Q. This information about the plans by the Sheik Rahman group Then ask one very specific question and It's what somebody told him. That's the only
was told to you second hand, isn't that correct? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Well, I remember we were in the guest house when they were
talk about that. Q. Mr. Al Fadl, were you present when these Sheik Rahman
people had the discussion or did somebody tell you about it a discussion later on? A. No, I remember we have talking when I was in the guest
house. Q. A. Did somebody else tell you about those discussions? We talk inside the guest house about that. MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: Yes. Objection. Sustained. Anything else?
MR. SCHMIDT: Q.
Yes.
You seem to have remembered that -SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1060
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Q.
Khartoum? MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: quarters. THE COURT: argument. MR. SCHMIDT: He said the bachelor quarters were Sustained. Let's not get into an Objection, scope.
there for a short period of time. I'll rephrase the question. Q. You said that the bachelor quarters were for single people Is that
1993? A. What I remember I saw him in the guest house but later on
I know he leave with somebody and he live in Rial City. Q. Let me ask the interpreter to translate this. How long was Mr. El Hage living in Khartoum by the end of 1993? A. Q. Please interpret it. I didn't count that.
Didn't you say that you trained him in 1992? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1061
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I have no other questions. Anything further of the witness? No, your Honor. Thank you for your patience, ladies and
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1062 12K1BIN4 1 2 (Jury not present) THE COURT: The next order of business is what?
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 played.
MR. FITZGERALD:
next order of business will be I believe the government will offer in as CNN videotape from 1997. We'll call an agent who
will testify as to the authentication of certain items seized in the search of Mr. El Hage's apartment. THE COURT: play the tape? MR. FITZGERALD: MR. KARAS: whole tape. THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: MR. SCHMIDT: MR. KARAS: MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: All right. Any objection to the tape? Yes. Yes, your Honor. Mr. Karas can address that. Now, with respect to the tape you plan to
And what is the nature of the objection? Needlessly gory. Just the interview. I withdraw my objection. No objection to the interview being Then what happens? An agent who will testify as to the
MR. FITZGERALD:
authentication of items seized in the 1997 search of Mr. El Hage's residence. Again Mr. Karas is familiar with any issues
that may be coming up on that. MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we submitted a letter to the
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1063 12K1BIN4 1 2 3 Court regarding and in limine motion. is any response to that. MR. WILFORD: There is, your Honor. Most I don't know if there
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respectfully, the government submitted a motion in limine by letter to the Court and has provided counsel with 3500 material. That 3500 material is severely redacted so what the
government in essence did was make a motion granting the redacted material in advance without giving counsel an opportunity to review the material and make a decision on its own whether or not that particular material would be relevant to any areas of cross-examination which the counsel would like to go into. The government would have an opportunity to object or present to the Court particular areas of that testimony which they think are beyond where they're going, but for the government in advance to redact whole hog the entire witness' prior statements, I think didn't give us a fair opportunity. THE COURT: Let me refresh my recollection and see if The government took the position
my recollection is correct.
that the agent was being called for the sole purpose of authenticating various exhibits and that the government wanted a ruling that that was the sole limited purpose of the witness who was not subject to cross-examination with respect to any other matters unrelated to the authentication of the exhibit. Is that the letter we're referring to? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1064 12K1BIN4
1 2 3
MR. KARAS:
it specified four areas, and we like to exclude cross-examination. Just so everybody is clear, the redactions
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material are only of things contained in the written document that are otherwise unrelated at all to the search, and that is separate and apart from the four issues we had raised in our in limine letter. MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, there is no way for counsel That's a
to know whether or not those issues are relevant. decision that the government is making. prior statements. THE COURT:
to the Court that the matters redacted had no relevance to what the subject matter of the witness' testimony is going to be. I will ask the government to submit to me by 9 a.m.
tomorrow an unredacted copy so that I can look at that myself. MR. KARAS: MR. DRATEL: We have it right now. The only other issue with respect to the
four areas that the government wanted to, the government in limine motion four areas with respect to of certain agencies which we don't have a problem with that. We also don't have a
problem with in terms of cross-examination as with respect to the legality of the Kenyan search not being an issue for the jury, but with respect with respect to the foreign SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1065 12K1BIN4
1 2 3 4
intelligence aspect of the search we have agreed I think with the government to reserve that issue for stipulation if in fact it become relevant. The fourth issue at the Kenyan warrant and the
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validity of warrant, and we would reserve the right to cross-examination not with respect to the legality of the search, but with respect to his credibility with respect to the issue of that warrant. THE COURT: That is part of the 3500 material. This witness is
I don't understand.
going to testify on X day a warrant was executed and these are the documents seized as a foundation for their being offered. MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I'm not saying that we're I'm saying we want
to reserve the right to use the material for credibility purposes. THE COURT: purposes? MR. DRATEL: property. The Kenyan warrant called for stolen Use what material for credibility
false and he used the warrant anyway, it has nothing to do with the legality of the search. It's the government's
position that is set forth in the pretrial procedures with the Court was that they weren't relying on the Kenyan warrant, so that's why the Kenyan warrant has nothing to with the legality of the search, but does go to the agent's credibility should SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1066 12K1BIN4
1 2 3 4
we wish to attack it. THE COURT: There is nothing in the world that can't
sought to be justified as a basis for cross under the rubric of credibility, but assume for a moment the Kenyan warrant was
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a ruse.
testimony that documents 1, 2, 3 and 4 were seized in execution of that warrant? MR. DRATEL: The other issue with respect to his
description of the search, your Honor, I don't know what his testimony is going to be. that. THE COURT: I'll revisit the question after his That's why I'd like to reserve
direct which I take it is all that you're asking that I do, but I think you know that you'll have a very heavy burden to establish for me that issues with respect to the legality of the Kenya warrant as a matter of Kenyan law are relevant to the credibility of the agent who is being called solely for purposes of identifying the results of the search. MR. DRATEL: This agent has said in an affidavit he
was presented with that warrant and our position is that he knew that that warrant was based on, that warrant was not, there was no stolen property, should not be granted and was not designed to get stolen property in the search. THE COURT: And you believe that that circumstance
should permit him to be cross-examined with respect to his SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1067 12K1BIN4
1 2 3 4 5
knowledge of the bona fides of the warrant so that the jury may consider the credibility of his testimony that the things being proffered are the things which resulted from that search. MR. DRATEL: Not just the things being proffered,
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your Honor.
It's also his execution of the search itself. I will permit you to revisit the issue
THE COURT:
intend on our direct to elicit that the Kenyans have for being on the premises for the reason that we don't think that the legality of the Kenya participation is relevant to the factual question that's presented by the introduction of the evidence. So we're not even going to get into that issue at all. THE COURT: the direct. I'll revisit the issue after I've heard
cross, and not whether defendant can call the witness as its own witness as part of the defense case should that somehow be relevant. Mr. Schmidt? MR. SCHMIDT: Honor. MR. WILFORD: THE COURT: Your Honor, there is -Let me just explore a moment. I think No, I'm just leaning forward, your
the first order of business today was that you were reserving some right for further material following the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1068 12K1BIN4
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examination of this witness, but it is not moot as to production of documents, but we don't -THE COURT: Would you let me have in writing what
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material you feel you are now entitled to have in light of the examination of this witness? morning? MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, if I may, depending on the If I am Can I have that by Friday
going to require the production of documents it would be documents that I would offer in the defendant's case which is not ripe yet, but I ask that we wait. I really do need that
because I don't need to do that extra work. THE COURT: All right. I want to avoid the problem
of having to recall this witness from wherever he is or wherever he is going in the near future. that it relates to the defendant's case. MR. WILFORD: Yes, your Honor. May I bring up Since you tell me
scheduling concerns for the Court's attention? THE COURT: MR. WILFORD: public? THE COURT: objection? You want to speak to me privately? Any Yes. Can we speak to the Court out of
(Discussion off the record in the robing room) (In open court) THE COURT: sometime next week. That matter related to scheduling Is there any matter that requires the
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that need to be resolved, some of which we're trying to resolve and some of them we think we may end up -MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, there are some other But we'll
issues we're trying to resolve with the defense. have that private squabble later. THE COURT: tomorrow. All right.
I'll be here if we need anything further. (Adjourned to 9:45 a.m., Wednesday, January 21, 2001)
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 1070 12K1BIN4 1 2 3 4 5 6 Witness INDEX OF EXAMINATION D X 889 RD 1031 1055 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS RX 1042 1058
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Exhibit No.
Received
2 ..........................................1033 1 ..........................................1034
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