FB

Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle index here

Date Prepared: July 10, 2003 DOC Number: Type document number here
Reviewed by: Type reviewer name here DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code: 320172

Record of Interview
Title Interview with Steve McCraw, Office of Intelligence, FBI
Purpose To discuss FBI's role in the visa revocation process
Contact Method In person interview
Contact Place FBI headquarters
Contact Date July 9, 2003
Participants FBI: Steve McCraw, Assistant Director, Office of Intelligence
Tom Ruocco, Special Assistant to Steve McCraw
GAP: John Brummet, Kate Brentzel, Mary Moutsos
Comments/Remarks:
We met with Steve McCraw and his assistant Tom Ruocco to follow up on some of the information
that Mr. McCraw discussed during the June 18 hearing on the visa revocation process.

In his testimony, Mr. McCraw said that the FBI had determined that only 47 of the 240 individuals
with revoked visas, which were mentioned in our visa revocation report, were in TIPOFF and that
the FBI did not believe that these 47 people were in the country. He said that State, FBI, and the
intelligence community had agreed after the September 11 attacks that TIPOFF would be the
database for terrorists and suspected terrorists. He said that regardless of whether State had
revoked other visas based on terrorism concerns, that the FBI is primarily concerned with the
individuals in TIPOFF. He said that being notified of a revocation is not important to them since
they are already monitoring the individuals in TIPOFF. If the individuals are not in TIPOFF or
VGTOF (the FBI's Violent Gangs and Terrorist Organization File), then the FBI does not believe
that they pose a terrorism threat. Mr. McCraw said that the other revocations in the group of 240
were probably not based on a real terrorism threat, but were more likely revoked for other reasons
of because of administrative hold-ups such as the Condor delays, (auditor's note: FBI's position
indicates that FBI and State are not using the same information to determine if a person may pose
a terrorism threat since Mr. McCraw said that it is only concerned with individuals in TIPOFF and
not others whom State had revoked because of terrorism concern.)

We told Mr. McCraw that State's Visa Office had said that visas could be revoked based on
information that the office had received through channels other than TTPOFF, such as diplomatic
security reporting and other intelligence reports. We asked Mr. McCraw if the FBI had asked State
why it had revoked certain individuals' visas based on terrorism concerns but did not enter the
names into TIPOFF. He said that the FBI had not asked State why it had revoked those visas nor
had it requested or reviewed any of State's documentation on those cases that were not in TIPOFF.

Mr. McCraw said that he FBI's Foreign Terrorist Tracking Task Force (FTTTF) monitors all
individuals in TIPOFF and VGTOF. For example, the FTTTF receives weekly batches of 1-94
arrival forms from the INS, which could alert the task force if individuals in TIPOFF entered the
country. The FTTTF monitors individuals in TTPOFF who enter the country. Mr. McCraw said that
the task force knew that 8 individuals from the group of 47 who were in TIPOFF had entered the
United States at some point but the FBI did not think they were still here.

Page 1 Record of Interview

Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Index: Type bundle index here
Date Prepared: July 10, 2003 DOC Number: Type document number here
Reviewed by: Type reviewer name here DOC Library: Type library name here
Job Code:320172

We asked Mr. McCraw if State's revocation notice might be useful information to have on an
individual who was in TIPOFF but he said that he FTTTF's monitoring of these individuals
operates separate of State's revocation action. He said that they didn't care about the revocation
notices because they would already be tracking individuals they were interested in by monitoring
the TIPOFF database.

Mr. McCraw said that "the system" he referred to in his oral testimony is this TIPOFF-FTTTF
system. He drew this graphic on a white board for us:

He said that this was "the system" through which terrorists are tracked by the FBI. He said that
that they would not investigate individuals who were not in TIPOFF based solely on the revocation
notice from State.
Mr. Ruocco said that the revocation cables go through the same checks that all other State visa
cables (such as the Donkeys, Bears, etc.) because the FBI communications center picks up on the
word "visa" and then sends the cables through the same process. The information from the cable is
checked against all FBI indices and if there are hits on that individual, the cable is sent to a
substantive unit for more analysis and research. We asked Mr. McCraw if the FTTTF received the
revocation cables too; he said that it did not and that it was not necessary since the task force was
already tracking individuals of concern through monitoring TIPOFF.

Page 2 Record of Interview