Episode 25

Mormon Identity POST MORTAL SPIRIT WORLD

Narrator: The views and opinions expressed here are those of the guests and are not the official position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[Piano background Music] Narrator: Welcome to Mormon Identity, a thirty-minute talk radio program which addresses church topics important to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our host is Robert L. Millett, Professor of Religious Education at Brigham Young University.

[End Music] Bob Millet: We welcome you, once again, to Mormon Identity. Im Bob Millet from Brigham Young University. Im joined today by my friend and colleague; Brent Top, who is the chair of the department of Church History and Doctrine at BYU. Welcome Brent. Thank you. Brent, today, this first period we want to talk about what happens after death. We want to talk about the post mortal spirit world, life as it continues beyond this life. You know, Job posed the great question, many many centuries ago, if a man dies, shall he live again? And in recent times in particular with the rise of a kind of militant of atheisms, there has been much question posed and much descent against the idea of life after death, and so I think if ever there were a time for Latter-day Saints to speak up and let their views and their understanding be known, its today. In fact, theres a statement by the prophet Joseph Smith that, I think, tells us how important this message is. As the prophet Joseph Smith says, All men know that they must die and it is important that we should understand the reasons and causes for our exposure to the visitudes of life and death and the designs and purposes of God in our coming into the world; our sufferings here and our departure hence. Now this is the part that I just love from the prophet, It is but reasonable to suppose that God would reveal something in reference to the matter, and it is a subject we ought to study more than any other. We ought to study it day and night for the world is ignorant in reference to their true condition and relation. And I love this last statement from the prophet Joseph, If we have any claim on our Heavenly Father for anything it is for knowledge on this important subject. Now I love that statement from the Prophet, that the restoration gives us incredible insights into life after death. What is going to happen to us after we leave this mortal existence?

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And I think that is a critical point, because no one of us, I think, or very few of us, want to die. And yet, facing death seems so much more reasonable, so much more peaceful in experience if we know what lies ahead. Exactly. I know when my father passed away, we had some pleasant hours before his passing, because we had, over the years, talked many, many times, what life is like after this life. And what life in the post mortal world will be like and who might meet him, etc. And so dad was, he didnt want to leave his family, and yet there was a curiosity on his part to fill in the puzzle pieces as it were, when he got in on the other side. So, lets talk a little bit about that, Brent, lets talk about life and death. Let me ask you this; let me pose this question, whats the function of death? Why is death necessary? You know, Im thinking of the Book of Mormon line, where Jacob says that death helps to fulfill the merciful plan of the great creator. How is death merciful? I think we can answer that by also, turning that question a little bit and saying, well, why is birth necessary? Well, we say we have to come to earth to gain a physical body. Well, we have to lay down the physical body before we can ever take it up. We can say, well, we have to be born into mortality so that we can gain experience to become more like our Heavenly Father. Well, we have to lay down our mortal body and have experiences in the spirit world to prepare ourselves for what lies beyond the spirit world. So, I think its just a closing of one door and opening another, as Elder Russell Neilson says, that each of those estates, weve talked about the premortal existence that was necessary to the plan of salvation and preparation for ultimate exaltation, weve talked about mortality, well, post mortality is just the third act of that three act play. President Gordon B. Hinckley wrote a poem that I just loved at a funeral of one of his friends. That poem was then made into a hymn that was sung at President Hinckleys funeral. And I love the first stanza of that, and Ill refer back to it later, but it reflects the universal question about death and what is going to happen. President Hinckley wrote in this beautiful poem, he said, what is this thing that men call death? This quiet passing in the night. Tis not the end but Genesis, of better worlds and greater light. I love that phrase, Genesis, it is a closing of one part of our mortal existence or our eternal existence, and the Genesis, the beginning of another, of great experiences and great opportunities and greater light and better worlds, as President Hinckley says. Well, its almost as if the words life and death are defined in terms of one another. The words, we die in a sense to be born. Its almost in a sense that we die as pertaining to premortality to be born into mortality we must die in mortality to things of the world to be born unto things of the spirit and we must die as to mortality as to be born into immortality. Exactly. In fact I think you see those terms all throughout the scriptures of birth, of that new birth, death is, in a way, a new birth. I remember once Bruce R. McConkie spoke in General Conference, this would have probably been in October of 1976, he said, something like this, he began with, I shall speak on a subject which strikes dread and even terror into the hearts of most men. I shall

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speak of death. And he went on to say, death is something most people hide from, would escape from if they could, and yet, he went on to talk about the glories following death, the growth, the development, the expansion following death. Brent Top: Brigham Young taught something very similar that I really love, is that he quoted the prophet Joseph Smith as teaching that everyone has some degree of dread or fear of death, even though we know with the plan of salvation that it is a genesis to greater worlds and better light, but he said we have that so we will cling to mortality to finish our purposes and our missions in life. To achieve our purposes. How much time passes between my death and me going into the spirit world? I think probably like a nano second. I dont know. And I think theres time; theres lots of statements that talke about that time doesnt exist the way that we think of, but I have heard people talk about it, that its like crossing through a doorway. And, its just a different existence. So when life ceases here as we call it, we experience this thing called death. Its a very interesting word, when you think about it, because in reality there is no death and there are no dead. And yet we have to choose a word of some kind to describe what takes place. We call death the separation of the physical body from the spirit. But Im with you I suppose that at the moment, the second we die we instantaneously pass into the world of spirits. I think the better word perhaps would be transition, that death seems so permanent and final, but it probably is something like walking from the family room to the kitchen, from one room to the next. When Elder McConkie passed away, Elder Boyd K. Packer spoke at the funeral and he used the phrase, he said Bruce and I had spoken often of his coming graduation. So the movement into a new sphere, where is it Brent? What have the prophets taught us about the spirit world? Well, I think one of our earliest references that we see is in the Bible in Ecclesiastes and its a scripture that is used quite often that is used in funerals, and sometimes not fully understood, but the preacher is what Ecclesiastes means, and Ecclesiastes chapter 12, verse 7, speaking of death, it says, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God, who gave it. So I think that is one of our very first references is the separation of the body and the spirit, the body returns to our mother earth, those temporal elements and then it says the spirit returns to God. Now that is an interesting phrase. Well, it reminds me of this passage, of course, from Alma, the 40th chapter of Alma, beginning in verse 11. Now concerning the state of the soul, (meaning the spirit the state of the soul) between death and the resurrection Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this

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mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. It is a very interesting question, do we go at the time of death, and do we go instantly into the immediate presence of God? You know Brent from your studies of the near death experience, and Ive done a little bit of that, that thats a fairly common belief on the part people, that the go immediate into the presence of Jesus for example. That hes the being of light that welcomes them. Brent Top: I think that modern day prophets have helped us to clarify that, that that phrase theyre taken to the presence of God or Taken home to God, who gave them life, is more a symbolic, meaning a spiritual realm. Were going into a spiritual realm not necessarily to the celestial kingdom and into the presence of God. Numerous latter-day prophets and apostles have commented on this to help clarify this, to not think that we are going to be greeted by the father and the son as soon as we pass through that portal called death. Here is President George Q. Cannon, Alma, when he says that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body are taken home to that God who gave them life. Alma has the idea, doubtless in his mind, that our God in omnipresent, not in his own personality, but through his minister the Holy Spirit. And heres what President Cannon says, He does not intend to convey the idea that they were immediately ushered into the personal presence of God. He evidently uses that phrase in a qualified sense. Yea, in fact, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball taught the same thing. Heber C. Kimball very clearly and again, I think they got their teachings not only under inspiration, but probably heard the Prophet Joseph teach those principles, that he said, Do not suppose that we are going to come into the presence of God, even within several rods of Him. You know the measuring rods. So I think we are saying we are brought into a spiritual type existence but it is not a Celestial Kingdom and it is certainly not the presence of God, as we know we will be in the presence of God ultimately. What is your understanding Brent, as to what the prophets or the scriptures teach us as to the location? I mean, when I die do I go off somewhere? Do I leave here? Do I go to another realm in another world somewhere? What is going on? Well, Brigham Young taught very clearly that the spirit world is right here on this earth. He says do men, when they are departed from this life go to the sun? To the moon? No, they go to a dimension or a realm that is superimposed upon this very planet. And you wonder, well how can that be. Well, Elder Orson Pratt, one of the great 19th century, Mormon theologians said, Think about it. The earth has a spirit just like we have a spirit, and the spirit world is a spirit existence, a spirit dimension that mortal eyes cannot see, but spiritual eyes can see them. And so it has to do with the spirit of the earth. I was thinking about that in light of this statement from the Prophet Joseph Smith he said, speaking of those who have gone on to the post mortal spirit world, they are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and emotions, and this part is a bit sobering, and are often pained there with. Parley Pratt, Orsons brother, It is here

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on the very planet where we were born. The earth and all the other planets of the likes sphere, have their inward or spiritual spheres as well as their outward. Brent Top: You know and I think thats why the word vale becomes significant. It is not a different domain, its not a different planet, its separated, its the same world, just separated by a film or a vale, something that is so near. Weve been talking about the post mortal spirit world; weve read some scriptures and some prophetic statements about life there. We were just talking about the nearness of the spirit world, that it is all about us, the post mortal spirit world and, even the prophet Joseph Smith said, theyre very near to us, theyre not very far away. I want to go ahead and read from the 12th verse of the 40 chapter of Alma, Alma chapter 40. And here Alma begins to give us some idea of kind of a division within this post mortal spirit world, verse 12. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all of their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And so we have here defined in the 40th chapter, and you know that it's defined also back in 2 Nephi chapter 9, by Jacob, paradise as the abode of the faithful, those who have passed the test of mortality and lived a righteous life. Brent Top: There are some interesting things I see in that verse that warrant a little further discussion because back in the old days when I was in high school, one of the activities that I was involved in, was debate. When you would debate, you would always have to define your terms right up front, so everybodys taking about the same thing. And I think sometimes even within the scriptures and when we talk about gospel doctrine concepts, we have to define terms and in this passage there are some terms there that we really need to define and for example what does it mean righteous. We speak of righteous and what does that mean? We speak of paradise, what does that mean? And then you go to the next verse that Alma talks about; well what does that mean, wicked? Because immediately when I read this passage from Alma, I dont know whether I have been programmed through so many lessons in Church through the years, or whatever, but I immediately see the diagram. I see the diagram that has it all very finely separated out in the spirit world. And on this side are the good guys and that side are the bad guys. And we say well, this is paradise and this is spirit prison and this is hell and all of those kinds of things. I think we need to define those terms because paradise can mean different things in different context. The earth will be paradicycle in the millennium and we will have both celestial and terrestrial folk on earth. Well, you remember, and sometimes people have a hard time with it, that in the New Testament, when Jesus is on the cross, and the thieves are speaking to him and saying remember me when you die and he says to the thief this day thou shalt thou be with me in paradise. And so immediately we say, well, theyre a thief? Theyre being crucified?

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And the automatic comeback on the person reading that says, oh, good, thats an indication of deathbed repentance. Everybody can be there; all you have to do is profess Jesus. And so, I think its important that we define that word paradise and the Prophet Joseph Smith made a wonderful statement in commenting on that passage in the account of the Savior on the cross. Joseph says, What is paradise? It is a modern word, it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise, you might as easily find a needle in a hay moa or a haystack, Joseph says. And so, he says it was that Paradise just meant world of the spirits. So in other words, this day you will be with me in the spirit world. Which is not an overwhelming promise. Thats right. No, in fact I think thats why we need to recognize that for all deceased it is a paradise in that meaning. And for all it is a spirit prison, to some degree and to categorically draw these lines or diagrams, I think really does injustice to what the scriptures are really teaching us. In fact, lets take that, you have dealt a little bit with paradise, but lets deal a little bit with this concept of spirit prison. That is often a phrase used to describe that other realm where people are either suffering, repenting, or people are learning and being taught and I suppose thats ok, but, theres another way of looking at it , it seems to me Brent, the revelations both, section 45 and section 138, use this idea, that the spirits have looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. In that sense, every person in the spirit world feels that theyre in bondage and in that sense the spirit world is a spirit prison to everyone, until their resurrection, which brings a fullness of joy. Exactly. So, spirit, youre right. Thats why I think the prophet made the comment, he said once, Hades, in the Greek, Shiloh in the Hebrew, spirit prison, spirit world, world of spirits; it is all one, it is a world of spirits. Thats why Brigham Young said, speaking of they all go together, righteous and wicked go to that same spirit world. Weve been talking about the post mortal spirit world. Weve talked about the 40th chapter of Alma and some of the teachings of this great prophet to his son Corianton. Let me read Brent, verse 13, Then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they choose evil works rather than good; therefore, the spirit of the devil did enter into them and take possession of their house and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Let me go on to 14. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and in a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus, they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. What do you see there, Brent, in verses 13 and 14 that is worth noticing?

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Well, I think the key phrase, I dont think in any way that Alma is trying to give us a definitive doctrinal discourse on the spirit world. I dont think this is really that much of a great discourse on what all the conditions and principles are that govern the spirit world. As much as an illusion to the spirit world. Yea, I think he is giving us; I like to say are the two ends of the continuum. He is talking about that state of peace and of rest for the righteous. And then he is talking about those who, at the farthest end of the continuum. This is what we forget. I think there is sometimes a tendency for us to think well the spirit world are those who are members of the church that are righteous and there the only ones that have peace and rest, and joy, and any form of glory and then everybody else is weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is not what Alma is saying. Alma says that key phrase, who have no part or portion of the spirit of the Lord. Thats not a huge percentage of people. Thats exactly right. So in a sense were almost talking the exalted verses the perditioned. I think that is what he exactly hes saying. So, we have these two extremes of people. And your right, the Doctrine and Covenants as well see in our next segment, fills in a great deal of the detail. But, youre right, Alma is almost, like the Book of Mormon so often does, speaking in black and white. Exactly. And remember he is speaking to his son who has had a very sinful past and he is trying to call him to repentance and he is using the joy of the righteous and the pain of the wicked. But hes not talking about those that never had the opportunity to know or those good and honorable men of the earth that have been blinded by the craftiness of men. And so, I really think that we do a disservice to the doctrine of the spirit world when we try to say Alma is saying youre either in paradise because your righteous or you have no part or portion of the spirit. Your either in hell or outer darkness if your not. I dont think that is what Alma is saying at all. In the closing moments we have here, lets talk a bit about the marvelous flood of light that comes to us through the restoration in terms of the state of people who never heard of the gospel. If we have any claim to a doctrine that is just as liberating and lifting, if we have claim to anything of great value to me, its the value that comes, the peace that comes from understanding that were not held for just what we have here. I think that is one of the most glorious doctrines of the restoration that we have and I think that as we talk about the spirit world is important to remember that all people are going to experience some degree of prison because of their separated from their bodies. All people, except those sons of perdition are going to be liberated from some of the

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cares and woes of the world and be able to progress and be enlightened in ways that maybe they couldnt even in mortality. Bob Millett: Brent Top: Well and even following the resurrection will then go to a kingdom of glory. Exactly. I think one of the things I like to think of, we say that the spirit world is both a paradise and a prison. I think another way of saying it, is that it is also a spirit school. It is the place of great instruction, and for the vast majority of the inhabitants of the earth, thats where theyre going to be introduced to gospel principles. Thats where theyre going to be taught and able to progress far greater than most of them ever had the opportunity to in mortality. Its a good way to put it. I remember reading where both President Wilford Woodruff and President Lorenzo Snow both said, made the comment, that a large segment of human kind will learn for the first time and will except the message hereafter, because it is so plain and that conditions there are different than they are here. President Brigham Young, I think emphasizes that place of instruction. He said, I shall not cease learning while I live, nor when I arrive in the spirit world, but shall there learn with greater facility. Now I like that. Now when I again receive my body I shall learn a thousand times more in a thousand times less time. And then I do not mean to cease learning, but shall continue my researches. And, so the spirit world is even enhanced as a spirit seminary, a spirit institute, a spirit church whereby we learn and grow and progress. To close this, Im reminded of the expression of concern on the part of Amulek when he says that same spirit which possesses your body when you go out of this life, will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. If we turn that around in a positive way, what we find the prophets teaching us is this; if were striving to learn the gospel here, if were using our energize to inform our mind to inspire our souls to seek after righteousness, if were doing that in this life, at the moment we die we will go into the spirit world and we will continue in that same direction with that same disposition and attitude with even greater facility in the world to come. Its a marvelous thing to know that life, and love and learning are forever. You have been listening to Mormon Identity. Thanks for tuning in. We hope you join us next time.

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