Transcript of the Testimony of Michael Seibert

Date: November 15, 2013 Volume: I Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 30, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc. Phone: 417-358-4078 Fax: 417-451-1114 Email:daholliday@hotmail.com Internet:

Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 1

IN RE:

JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

MICHAEL SEIBERT

Taken on Friday, November 15, 2013, from 3:40 p.m. to 4:16 p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of Missouri, before SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650, a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 2

APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE Loraine & Associates, LLC 4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300 Osage Beach, MO 65065

tellaw@loraineandassociates.com

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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into typewriting. It is further stipulated that the signature of the witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of said witness shall be of the same force and effect as though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.

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Page 4 I N D E X Page/Line DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A.

(not identified)

Advice of Rights

Note:

Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken (ph.) - phonetic

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MICHAEL SEIBERT Having been first duly sworn and examined, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE: Q. A. Q. A. Q. State your name. Michael Seibert. Mr. Seibert, you're on the City Council? Correct. You know that I was retained by the City Council as a whole, it wasn't just part of you, but as a whole, and my job was basically three areas and collateral damage that arises out of those questions if that happens. The

first question was what, if anything, did Mr. Woolston do wrong. The second question,

what, if anything, did Mr. Scearce do wrong. And the third question is how did the famous note come from Manager Rohr's desk. And he's

very concerned about that and I think I would be, too, if it was a note off my desk. So

those are the three issues and now there have been some collateral issues that have come up, I will not bore you with those details until I submit my report, but I will be submitting a report hopefully in Chambers in

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. closed meeting and you all can grill me, it will be a chance for me to talk with you guys, so I've got to be a little bit careful what I say to you. Having said that, Mr.

Seibert, tell me anything you know about any of those issues or any collateral issues that involve the divided board that appears to be or the circumstances surrounding employees or whatever. Well, the first issue around Mike Woolston, you know, I knew that this issue had been brought up by others on the Council and they had brought it to the City Attorney's attention, Brian Head, to be reviewed and a decision rendered, and then Council received a confidential memorandum from Attorney Head stating that he had thoroughly reviewed this and saw no conflict of interest or no impropriety on Woolston's part, but did caution that moving forward we'd make sure if he needed to recuse himself or not make a vote that those were things that we needed to make sure that we did properly. So I looked

at this accusation by Benji or Bill or whoever wanted to bring that forward as, you

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Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. know, just a way to kind of move the target a little bit. But that's, you know, I took the

information that the City Attorney gave me as face value, that this has been vetted by the City Attorney and that the concerns that have been brought forward were of nonissue, and that's kind of where I -That's all you know about that issue? Uh-huh. Are you a realtor? No, I'm a drug rep. That's hard to see how you could get involved in any of this. Nope. Unless some of these guys are on drugs. That could be. Yeah. I didn't say that. Mr. Seibert, in

regard to number two, Bill Scearce, how long have you known Mr. Scearce? You know, I've known Bill most of my adult life. Not well, just know who he is. The

only exposure that I've had to Bill over those years was some of the different businesses that he's owned. One was for a

period of time I knew he owned an Army

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Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. surplus place. Are you approximately - what age are you? I'm 55. So he's the age of my parents. I understand. So that's what

There you go.

you meant most of your adult life. Right. And to say we're friends or

acquaintances, minimal or very, very little. Most of my exposure to Bill has been through Council. How long have you been on the Council? I'm finishing up - well, it will be six years in April. First six years? Pardon me? Is this your first? Well, I fulfilled a vacated Council seat for about 18 months and I'm almost finishing up my first four year Council term. I'm with you. But back to say I'm a friend of Bill's or have known Bill, it's just, you know, very we knew who each other were or we'd say hi, but to say we ran in the same circles, we did not. And no social?

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Page 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. A. Q. No, if it was it was by happenstance, not -Okay. Now there's been some discussion about

him being potential indictment charge for gambling or something. What do you know about that? Not a potential indictment. He was

interviewed by the FBI and it was my understanding that there was no indictment through the FBI investigation. had -Some information? He just had a role. He just had a role. And He just

to me depending upon what that role was, you know, I think that speaks to the ethics of an individual. And now recently, more recently,

and I think almost more pertinent than what he did back during this period is how truthful he's being currently right now about his recanting of his participation in the FBI investigation. Which is why I feel like as a

Council we were in a position where we needed to also request the FBI file so we could see for ourselves what kind of involvement, what kind of answers he was giving to their questions and now we have to compare that to

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. the answers that he's giving us right now and to me that's kind of where we are. Well, the FBI report, I'm just going to say I don't have it and the City doesn't have it. But our request of you is to do everything you can to try to get -And I've instructed Mr. Head as the City Attorney, you know. I'm appointed on a

specific issue, but he's an official of this city and he has guaranteed me that he will I've given him a name of general counsel and I've asked them to address that to see what, if anything, he can do to help expedite that information. I will tell you as an ex-U.S. attorney, I was an assistant for five years, and I can tell you that FBI reports are extremely difficult to obtain, and the reason they are is for the reason here stated, what, if anything, does it mean that the FBI questioned him. FBI. Sure. So what does that mean? Sure. It means nothing. And so what I'm saying is I've been questioned by the

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. we even have a better source, a better source, Lane Roberts, and Lane won't talk. Well, I think he - will he answer any questions? No, he wouldn't answer the pertinent questions. I understand that. I understand why he's

probably not doing that, but -That's the best source. report he says. Yeah. But now you're my boss and some day you're going to have me in front of you just as you're in front of me, and the question really is, and I don't want to get into specifics, but I will say that I had two people that should have information that don't give me anything. Does that mean they Does it mean - I I mean he's read the

don't have any information?

don't care what it means, it means I don't get anything and that's somewhat impeding this investigation. Now certainly I've

questioned Mr. Scearce as I'm questioning everyone about all three of these items, but credibility. Yeah, I kind of laugh a little

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. bit because we're accusing a politician of lying and I think to myself, oh, is that unusual? unusual. Right. So I'm troubled with why I can't get the real information from people that supposedly have it. If it's an ongoing investigation it And unfortunately it is not

would not be an ongoing investigation against this particular man because it would have resulted in nothing or it would have resulted in an indictment. So that doesn't happen.

So if it's an ongoing investigation on interstate crime and snitches are mentioned and stuff like that they're never going to give me that report. They're not going to They won't even Now one

give anybody that report.

give that to your senator probably.

of your guys had a good idea, send a letter out, I'm going to have Brian send that letter out and I'm going to copy in the guys we vote for. Now if that doesn't work I don't know

what will. Right. And I suspect it won't.

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. And I understand what you're saying, but you have to walk a mile in this Council's shoes. We have spent a long time building the public trust, especially post tornado, and within a very short period of time this current Council has really destroyed the public trust. I agree that your Council as a whole is not operating the way a Council ought to be operating. I completely agree. And whether or not that is one side or the other side is one of my issues. Who among

these people are guilty of splitting this Council and why. happening? of the City. Oh, I agree. I agree. I mean why is that

It's certainly to the detriment

It's at a very bad time, too, because everybody in the world thinks poor Joplin, everybody has got their heart out in their hand and we're allowed to slip through. That's one of the reasons that I would really like for this to come to a resolution, and I would like - whether - I personally think the

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. way Mr. Scearce is wired there is no way he's going to step down and there's not enough votes because of the relationship that he has on Council and the lifelong friends he's got on that Council and the number of votes you've got to get in order to remove somebody from Council, there's no way that that's probably going to be achieved. So what

you're going to see is an even further divide within this city of civil leaders and residents banding together probably and putting a petition together and vote him off in the next election. I mean my civics tell me that when somebody does something bad the result is they can't get re-elected. Now I've seen Mr. Clay in St. Louis keep getting elected and I know personally from the U.S. Attorney's office that that should probably not have happened. But, see, Scearce isn't going to be elected anymore. He's done. He's done. But he's

causing problems, he's causing the City to go on a course that is not beneficial to the City. And those are my opinions and they're

shared with a lot of other people, but I

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. think part of what could possibly come from this would be the level - you know, if enough information came out to contradict some of his earlier statements and earlier things that he's said then there could be enough momentum based on that for these people to come forward and say, you know, I'm ready to get signatures. And it's a political process. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is about the

best thing we can get. I don't know of any other way we can do it. No, and unfortunately from his standpoint if you've watched his history the only time he comes with a little more, he becomes a little more forthright is when he's cornered. he is forced to - when he is put in a position to be more forthright. The last Two When

time he did that was when we hired you.

days later he calls the Globe and says, well, I really did participate in that or I did have knowledge of that. He said I had knowledge? Right, but that only happens when he is forced to.

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Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. A. Q. Q. A. Q. Okay. I'm going to go back to see what I

think is - maybe I should put pressure on that Police Chief to say whatever he will say. I mean I can do that and come back to

you guys and say, yeah, I think this guy should be fired if he doesn't cooperate. I've had that discussion with him and he said, well, I can't contribute. Well, he And

says he'd step down before that. I don't know, maybe he would. He's a pretty honorable man. -How did this situation develop? See, that's And that's the

what I'm wanting to know, how did this situation develop? issue. It goes back further than that. I mean there's a note and I've got a guy pretty mad about the note being taken off his desk he says, and I don't blame him. I think Well, there's this note

I'm to the bottom of that, I think, but we'll see. What this gets down to in my mind -See, I don't know anybody. I gotcha. I gotcha. And the problem is that

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. Q. A. there is knowledge of this investigation, his activity in this organization, and it's a criminal activity that he was condoning and he was accepting rent from, and all that was tried to be done I know through the Globe's request for this FBI file was to be able to get that information out there before an election so citizens could make an informed choice. And we just had delay, delay, delay,

delay, and now he's breezed past his last election and so he's clear of that. Thank God I didn't delay it. All I'm saying is that's the history. I mean

there have been so many people that said, you know, if people just knew the history here would they have elected him. And the question I keep going back to, is if there's somebody that's got information why don't they give it to me? any information. to you? Oh, sure. I just can't understand why I've got two cops that don't have anything to say, won't even contribute. There's other people that won't Maybe there isn't

Did that thought ever come

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Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. contribute to this process. Can Brian give you any legal guidance for that? I have a lot more legal guidance than Brian has on this issue. I know what I can do. I

can recommend that they bring him in and he either answers or he suffers the loss of job. Would you guys do that? doubt it. did it -I mean is there a way that the information that he would reveal be limited to discussion in a closed session of Council? Sure, this is closed. Now I would take this I don't know. I

And then it's nothing.

But if you

down to protect me so that somebody doesn't say, Mr. Loraine, you cheated. that. I don't want

We can't have that. But what we can do

is agree that this particular segment, that these reports and frankly I don't think these reports go anywhere. retain them frankly. I think I ought to That's what I think. I don't mean to be

But Council is my boss.

give and take, but you're my boss, and I'm sitting here asking you questions so I've got to try to be honest with everybody.

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Page 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I appreciate that. And I don't have --

So you really can't help me really on two? No, because I have no first-hand knowledge. Right. I have other than the information that's out there in the community -Mr. Rohr came in here. He didn't have any

first-hand knowledge either. Huh-uh. Oh, I know.

Well, you know, he didn't have any knowledge for me on this issue. disturbed by that. Well, I mean -The only sources I got is nobody has got any knowledge for me. frustrating. Well, I understand that, but I also know and respect Chief Roberts that, you know, -Chief Roberts is Chief Roberts. He'll either That is a little I'm a little bit

tell me there's something there or he won't. If he would just say, hey, this guy was the source at one point of the investigation, but he can't say nothing. That's malarkey. I mean, come on.

As an Assistant U.S.

Attorney and as an investigator I don't buy

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. that. You know what, that throws a rumor out

and let the rumor do the indictment. Right. So if there is something there I'm doing my derndest to get to that bottom. what I will be able to do? But you know

I will be able to

tell you here's - hell, I've probably investigated, I don't know, thirty people so far. I've got some more to go. Some people

won't help me.

I thought I had Mr. Lovett, He agreed to testify to I

the actual crook. me.

He told me something on the phone.

said, well, can you come in because I don't want to take anything from him. He talked to

his lawyer and his answer is, no, he can't come in, he doesn't want to talk about any of those things anymore. He already served some time. I thought who served some time would You know, what else has he done?

be good.

But, you know, I can't get anybody to talk to me and that's really frustrating to a guy that -To me -But, you know what, I can't make him come in. A. No.

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. Q. But I can make Mr. Roberts come in. won't he tell me? Well, I think -Well, it is not a matter of what we think. He won't come in. There's some extensive information that is known out there, it's not been revealed to me, and if we can't get it out and nobody will -You know what, do you know what you have done, though, it's out there. I mean if this Why

guy had to run for another election I doubt that he could ever get elected. It's not that. You know, I can tell you from

the input that I get in my interactions with people around this city they're embarrassed by his actions, they think it's deleterious to the city. The last thing they ever want

is for him to be Mayor and so those are -Well, that won't ever happen. You can't say that. He can't get elected again. We don't elect the Mayor publicly. I know, but can he get elected? I mean I

thought you said he was in his last term?

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Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. A Mayor is elected every two years -Does he have a four year term left? Correct, he's finished - this next April he'll be halfway through his four year term, and every two years as seated Council elects the Mayor from within so -You know who the two guys are I wouldn't elect? elect? Who is that? I wouldn't elect Woolston and I wouldn't elect him. And you know why? Because Do you know the two guys I wouldn't

there's just too much out there. Yeah. Everybody is throwing mud at the whole Council because of this. Right. That's a shame. You guys work hard. You

don't get paid anything. --

You're busting your

I can tell you I was with Woolston for three or four days straight right after the tornado in the command center. I've never seen

somebody more committed to this town, to this Council, and at the same time, you know, a

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Page 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. number of other Council members had other issues going on and they were, you know, they were dealing with other things and they only got re-engaged when they wanted to get re-engaged. And there's been a lot of hard

work done and -I understand, but you know what, I'm not looking at that issue. Oh, I understand. I understand. But for you

to say you wouldn't re-elect Woolston -Well, I wouldn't. If I was on the Council I Why

wouldn't elect either one of these guys. ask for more problems? Oh, no, I don't think Woolston wants to be Mayor. I don't think he would be. No, no, no, no, no. But you know what I'm saying to you, I've

been at this for a long time, since 1971, and I wish people would not give me any windows, but I want facts. facts. And I appreciate that and that's what - given our position with this we didn't have many other choices. That's what I want is

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Page 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. No, you guys are at the end of the road. I mean this was the most logical thing that -I mean that's the issue. No, I don't think they will. I think there

will be people that will take this and they'll come to the conclusion that people that won't come forward to talk had something that they didn't want to reveal for good reason, and I think they will infer, right or wrong I think they'll infer guilt through that. Well, you know what, and the finder of facts can do what they want. fact really. But I think it will go beyond Council, as it should. I think this will probably motivate You're the finder of

some of the business leaders and some citizens to come forward with a possible action against Scearce, which is about all that's left out there because like I said he won't step down, they'll have to drag him off, and he won't do that, and there's not enough votes to get him off because of the relationships he's got on Council. That's

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Page 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. about the only thing that we could do because there was so much being brought out in the press and the press wasn't getting anywhere. The press has already gotten what they need. They've got this issue out in front of everybody. But they couldn't get what they wanted. couldn't get the FBI report. They

And it wasn't

our position, if we hadn't requested it, also, to sit there and be supportive of the press, we needed to have our own request out there. And I am going to promise you that has already been requested. And that's fine. Yes. I realize, and I know a number do, that we have a limited opportunity, a limited role in this. Yes, we do. And this is the best thing that we can do given the circumstances, we can debate and lament, but this is -You know what I'd like to say about this is that if the FBI really had something, either That's all we could do.

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Page 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. they're politically motivated, which I can't believe that Mr. Scearce has any control or authority over the FBI agent, I don't know anybody that does including the Assistant U.S. Attorneys. They operate within a vacuum So having said that

and, man, they're tough.

if there was something there they'd get a quick indictment they would have done that, because an indictment usually means a conviction. Honestly I have no doubt that he's not - he probably has not had - he has not - what he did rose to the level of a criminal indictment. Does it rise to the level of

ethics violations for someone who sits on the City Council? Possibly. And I think here's

the link that people would like to know right now. Are the things that he's denied true or The things that he's out there

false today?

talking about, is he truthful to the voters in his answers? And if they can find that

he's not truthful today about his answers of what he did for most people that's an ethics violation today, not ten, twelve, fourteen years ago.

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Page 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Twenty. Whatever. That's the point. If you have the

moral background, if you have the moral makeup that you can just sit there and not tell the truth then -I think certainly credibility is always an issue. And that's where it's going to lie -That really lies in the voting booth. Absolutely. opportunity. And there's no voting There is if they want to do a

recall, and there might be enough through this that may or may not motivate them. Recall work in a - because I've never looked that up. I think there has to be a percent of signatures based on the last election, I think, or the last cycle and then you have to meet that level of signatures and then it's placed on the ballot. That would be city wide? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

That would be a large number. Just depends on how motivated people are. And we can't control that and we shouldn't

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Page 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. control that. Probably not. Well, is there anything on

number three that you can give me? No, just from what I've heard. like to know the answers. I think I've got the answer on that one. You'll be happy with the answer. you'll be satisfied, I think. I mean I mean I'd

I don't know

if you'll be happy, but you'll be satisfied. Well, my concern was if it was someone in the City that helped facilitate that I have an issue with that. If in some way Bill has not

been truthful about what's happened I have an issue with that. But other than that I mean

I don't have an answer. Let me ask you the catch-all question. Is

there anything that I haven't asked you about that you want me to look into? You know, I know that there have been people who worked for Bill that I encouraged to come in and interview with you. Bill? Scearce, yeah, that worked for him and I've encouraged some folks that this is an opportunity to have this conversation

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Page 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. separate from the media that would give them an opportunity if there were things they would like to reveal or clarify, so hopefully that's been done. I have had some input from that standpoint. Anything else, sir? What we've talked about

here, this is your investigation, I would like you to promise me to keep it in here, what you've said, and I'm asking that of everyone. There still is a couple of Council

members that haven't expressed any interest to talk to me. Yeah. One is Raney and there's another one. maybe not anymore. everybody but Raney. She's out of town. Well, I'll come back. talk to me. (Indicating) What does that mean? That means she can't record that. May the record show. I hope, sir, that I can I sure hope she'll Or I think one is Raney.

Yeah, I think I've got

She's one of my bosses, too.

produce some kind of product that will bring some kind of peace to this neighborhood.

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I don't think it will. I think what you will

be able to provide possibly is a direction for people in the City to do, voters to do something, not Council. Council doesn't have

enough I don't think to do anything. How long are you on the Council still? I'm up for re-election in April. Are you going to run again? I am. You've had a lot of fun and you want some more? It's too damn important right now. We need

better leadership within Council and a direction and I want to be a part of it. I know the pay isn't very good. I'm telling you, five bucks a meeting, two meetings a month. retirement. That's a pretty sweet I

No, you don't do it for that.

grew up here, lived here all my life, and we've got a once in a lifetime opportunity to get this right and to get diverted and be distracted with what we've got going on right now and some of the thinking we've got with some it's just very, very frustrating. that's why you have elections every two But

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. years, too. I think somebody had some wisdom to say, you know, if it gets to smelling bad you just throw them all out and start all over. You

know, it doesn't seem to work that way on a federal level, though. No, it doesn't, but I think people are, at least some people are watching more than they did, maybe. You know, our framers said here it is, can you keep it, and you know what, I want to know how it managed to - and I'm just speaking of history. I have an undergraduate

history degree and I went to law school, but I wonder if we're at the end. I don't know.

No, I don't think we're at the end, I think we just need to refocus on the basis. framework is incredible. Well, yeah. The Bill of Rights and the things that went in -Yeah, those guys were pretty smart. I don't The

think we've got enough smart guys really in today's government that I don't think they could reproduce.

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED) Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. Oh, I guarantee you. Look at the Obamacare document. We've got a

Declaration and a Constitution that probably can be twenty pages or less, and we've got one bill or one issue that's, what, 2,000, 3,000 pages. Does that tell you something?

Any time you add 16,000 IRS agents to enforce your health care plan you've got something else going on. Kind of frightening. It's really frightening. We'd better get off the record here.

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Michael Seibert

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 33

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI ss. COUNTY OF JASPER I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 15th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith returned. I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of either party or of the attorney of either party, or otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________ SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

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