Transcript of the Testimony of Gary Shaw

Date: November 15, 2013 Volume: I Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 30, 2013

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 1

IN RE:

JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

GARY SHAW

Taken on Friday, November 15, 2013, from 8:52 a.m. to 9:10 a.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of Missouri, before SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650, a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 2

APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE Loraine & Associates, LLC 4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300 Osage Beach, MO 65065

tellaw@loraineandassociates.com

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 3

S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into typewriting. It is further stipulated that the signature of the witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of said witness shall be of the same force and effect as though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement. .

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 4

I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE

5-2

E X H I B I T S

(sic) - typed as spoken (ph.) - phonetic

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. GARY SHAW DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE: A. I wanted to talk to you. I'd just as soon

avoid conflict if I can, but after I got back to my office and got to thinking about a couple of things there were some things that concerned me a little bit that maybe I should have said that I didn't say, but nothing really any new information as far as our investigation than maybe a little bit of direction. One of the things that you asked

me about was my relationship with Mark, and where did you - from what did you derive that I had a relationship with Mark other than what other Council members would have? I

mean is there something I said or something somebody else said? And the reason I ask

that is I was concerned that maybe you were being guided in your investigation. You mentioned you're pastor of his church, I think that's the relationship. Okay. I just wanted to - I guess the thing

that I wanted to mention to you, a couple of things as far as the investigation is concerned, for me to have peace it doesn't

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 take a whole lot because I have faith in people and confidence in people, but I do want us to work really strong about keeping this independent without any influence from staff sources including our City Attorney. think Brian does an outstanding job on contracts and Council bills and things of this nature. I think sometimes Brian runs outside of his lane, you know, you have lanes that you should operate in and so forth. example of that was just recently we were doing some re-evaluation in our Public Works Department and there was a re-evaluation of a position with elevated pay for a certain employee. And Brian compared that to the An I

education that some of his people had and so forth, and instead of going to H.R. or the Assistant City Manager who put the program together he sends a letter to the Council and voices his displeasure on that. And there

are just some other areas that I've seen. Again I'm very pro-Brian, I'm not against Brian, but I just want to - I guess what I'm saying is that do not allow him to influence your decisions and things that you're making

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. on this. I don't let anybody influence me. influenced by is what people say. I do it that way. I understand that. And people have talked with me not under oath on the phone - I just got a phone call from some attorney concerning someone I wanted to talk with that I can't make come in here and there's a lot of those people I can't make come in here. I can't make any one of you What I get That's why

guys come in here, but I can sure make your employees come in. So, you know, there's a I call

lot of things that are popping up.

them collateral damage, you know, and it happens in these things. If there weren't

real deep seated problems we probably wouldn't have gotten to - I would caution all of you, you know, I'm just investigating. don't make any decisions. see and everything I see. And that's exactly what we'd hope for. I mean I don't think anybody is going to be happy with what all we find out. I'll just I

I'll report what I

be honest with you I have information that's

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. going to make everybody unhappy so I probably wouldn't get another job down here. So it's

an unfortunate thing, but there's some deep seated problems I see. And we need to be aware of that. I would think that a well intentioned public servant that's on the City Council would certainly want to know a lot of what I'm learning. I would think everyone would want

to know that. You bet. And then they all need to make their own decisions and follow their own conscience. And the report that you'll put together you'll give to the Council the whole, not to Brian or not to the Mayor, but to the Council? Right, yes, nobody gets - one doesn't get these anymore than -And I hope you understand I'm not anti-Brian, I'm very pro-Brian, but I think that he's probably another one if he's not on your list to investigate to ask questions about. I did ask questions of him legally on that. But that was my main concern.

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Everything is being done, as far as I'm concerned everything is consistent with what I normally do in these circumstances, what I've done in a number of other cities and other districts to try to root out - you hear a lot of stories because you try to root out what has basis and fact and then I report I'm hired by the Council and I report to the Council. Hopefully in closed session. If

there is a question I'll be happy to deal with it, but there will be a written report and that's what I'm here for. And I hope you don't misconstrue my reason for this. It was just some things that I

reviewed when I got back to my office and got to thinking about. I don't have a running number, but I'm probably I would say 20, 25 people that I've already taken statements from and those certainly include the City Manager, the City Attorney, and various other employees, the Police Chief has been in here. Don't get me wrong, we've got some great people. There's not any of them that I don't I think there's

have confidence in.

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sometimes when we get to the position we forget what we're elected to do, those that are elected, and again I'm a great one to believe in running in your own lane and when you get out of your lane is when you get into trouble. One of the things that we talked

about and I thought about later was the note that was again probably blown out of proportion, that type of thing, but to me what was on the note wasn't as important. I'm a private fellow. My wife and I are in

our 52nd year of marriage, and today if a piece of mail comes to our home and it has her name on it I don't open it. open it. I let her

And I guess that in my office

people know that I open my mail and things are on my desk. I don't come into somebody

else's office and go through their desk or pick things up off their desk, and I don't expect them to do mine. And I guess my concern about that wasn't so much what was on the note, but the fact that somebody felt they had the freedom to come into somebody else's office and take whatever it was. Maybe it didn't, but that's what we were led

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Q. A. A. Q. to believe happened. Well, that's what City Manager Rohr also told me that he believes that's the most and really primary consideration I'm here for. don't quite agree with him and his assessment, but if it was on my desk I'd be very concerned and why things got out. So I I

can tell you you may rest assured that issue will be fully and completely resolved along with a recommendation. And I appreciate your efforts. I do. I

thank you for being willing to do this. It's not fun. Oh, I know it's not. re-election. It's time for

I've been on three terms and

I'm 72 and I thought about retiring and I've had people calling me saying please don't, we need one more time anyway. My desire is not

where I think I'm going to get because I'm on the Council, it's because I want to give back to my community. Yes, the pay that you get is probably not -It puts me in another tax bracket. I appreciate and understand, but I haven't talked - I mean all of my information that

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I'm questioned on has come right through that machine. Everything. And so you may rest

assured that - and that's why I'm doing it this way. I've got some people that could

really help this investigation that won't talk to me. Is that right? Yes, sir. And I'm very dismayed about that.

That's too bad, it really is. But if they were City employees they'd be in here, and I can't fire them, but I can certainly say they didn't cooperate and I guess that leaves you guys can do what you want with that. Sure. Yeah, I wish everybody would come in here and tell the truth. But sometimes the truth is -

you know, I can't look you in the eye and say, oh, you're not telling the truth, or hey, you're telling the truth. that. You're not the mentalist. The scientific evidence is that you can't really tell demeanor. Whether you twitch or You can't do

all those things are not - that's all Perry

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Mason stuff that doesn't bear any - but what does happen is when you get into conflicts where somebody else says those are the things that you can then consider as being, well, you know, there's some question. And if

enough of that comes in then there's some credibility issues and I'm not the judge of credibility, I'm going to report and you all are going to judge that. do. And, you know, there's a certain amount of it and you know that, too, being on the outside looking in, but it's just people's nature getting involved in a conflict and you did this to me, I did that to you, or you did this, I'm going to get back. You know, this certainly is a divided city. I can tell you that. And, you know, it shouldn't be. It should not be, no. It should not be and it hasn't always been that way. No, I served on the Missouri That's what I'm to

Municipal League Board for several years and made several trips to Jefferson City and one of the things that I found in meeting with

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. other mayors and so forth was that Joplin really had something going that a lot of them didn't. A lot of them were at odds with Well, we work good with our

their Chambers. Chamber.

In fact, our Chamber is our But

economic arm of our city and stuff.

we've just I guess maybe this time on the Council we have some stronger personalities than we've had in the past that caused us -Some reason for division. Yes, it does. I think there is a reason why. There is a

reason or more reason why the terrible split that's apparent. And, you know, I hope that

most of the split has good intentions, but maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I just try

to reserve until I get all the facts and make all the conclusions I can possibly make and if there's some recommendations I can make I will do it and you guys are the final decision makers. I appreciate your time. me here again. Thank you. And again I hope I didn't come on like I was Thanks for letting

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. trying to conjure something up, I just wanted to have peace in my mind that I had - when I came I came prepared, I didn't have a pre-set agenda, I came to answer your questions, and when I got back I thought, well, you know, you probably should have at least said something on a couple of lines. And I'll be honest with you I'm not here to answer questions, I'm here to ask them. I understand. But I believe that you're my employer, you're one of my bosses that I have facetiously said to several of your co-workers, and it's difficult to - I can't make you guys come in here. I can't. I can only make the City

people come in. Right. I mean that's the only thing that you've given me, you guys have hopefully voluntarily come in here to tell the truth and if someone doesn't want to come in here I certainly can't make them come in. And, you know, the boss thing, that type of thing, it puts you in a hard position. hire you and you interview us. We

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I mean it is tough. But that's why it's not

the expert that lives by definition 150 miles away, what it really is is I have no preconceived notions of any of you which I am absolutely certain that most lawyers within a 50 mile radius of this town will have preconceived notions one way or the other. And it's the way we in law supposedly work is we supposedly get a disinterested judge that has no knowledge of any of the facts, we have a disinterested jury that has never heard about this, and we spend a lot of time trying to poison the jury or not poison the jury depending on what you're trying to do and manipulate them, and what you really want is you want people that have no prior information. With today's media world it's

pretty tough to do that so what do you get? Do you get dumb people that don't watch the news or people that don't care about the news, you know. I don't know what the answer

is, but the system is designed to work at its best when all the information comes from one source and as from a chair under oath and people in a jury panel if they're the

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. deciders, in this case the Council, hear all of the facts that come in. Now they're still

going to have their internal biases, but hopefully they're a good enough steward to listen to the independent facts that someone else has gathered to rely on for a decision as opposed to some of this biases. And to

that extent my question was directed to you, you know, as to what exactly that relationship was because I have heard the relationship through that. Sure. And through your own mouth, and I hope that, you know, I'd be foolish if I didn't ask the question so I can evaluate your testimony as well as anybody else's. Sure. And that's the purpose. So I appreciate you

coming back, Mr. Shaw, and getting whatever was on your mind off your mind. I hope that

our discussions have been kept within this room. Oh, sure. Just like you hope that I'm being directed mostly from the people right here and not

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED) A. Q. Q. A. from outside sources, I hope that our information stays here. You bet. When a Councilman asked me the

other day if I'd been here and I said yes. Well, what do we do, and I said, well, they're going to have you sign a piece of paper and they're going to listen to what you say. you. I appreciate that. coming back. expectations. Oh, there's no doubt you will. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Shaw, for Other than that what you tell is up to

I hope I live up to your

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Gary Shaw

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 19

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI ss. COUNTY OF JASPER I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 15th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith returned. I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of either party or of the attorney of either party, or otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________ SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

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