Adam B. Levine (AL) Host Stephanie Murphy (SM) Co-host Michael Perklin (MP) Director for Bitcoin Alliance of Canada Emmanuel Delmoly (ED) Co-founder and CEO of BitCredits Brian Xu (BX) Co-founder of IdeaNotion Amir Taaki (AT) Core Bitcoin developer, core collaborator at Dark Wallet & CoinJoin Ron Dembo (RD) Founder and CEO of Zerofootprint Ernest Hancock (EH) Radio host and founder of Freedoms Phoenix
AL: Today is May 6th 2014 and this is Episode 107. This program is intended for informational and educational purposes only. Cryptocurrency is a new field of study. Consult your local futurist, lawyer and investment advisor before making any decisions whatsoever for yourself. [0:17]
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Welcome to Lets Talk Bitcoin, a twice weekly show about the ideas, people and projects building the digital economy and the future of money. My name is Adam B. Levine and today were In The Moment. My first day in Toronto, I trundled down to the Bitcoin Decentral, recorder in tow and dived into the Bitcoin/Ethereum Hackathon.
The first half of todays show features selections from that afternoon and includes interviews with Michael Perklin from the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada, Emmanuel of BitCredits.io on their Bitcoin voting system, Brian of IdeaNotion on their Bitcoin app for Google Glass and my first in person interview with Amir Taaki on his Hackathon winning Dark Market project. Then, we take a look at Goodcoin with Zerofootprint CEO, Ron Dembo. Theres more than one way to skin a cat and this ones a non-cryptocurrency approach to quantifying and rewarding good behavior with a barter token. Finally, we zip over to New York for Stephanies conversation with Ernie Hancock on Bitcoin, his excitement about MaidSafe and the Freedom Connection.
Enjoy the show! [1:24]
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Adam B. Levine interview with Michael Perklin
AL: Im here with Michael Perklin, one of the directors from the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada. Were sitting in the... were standing actually, in the Hackathon area and everyone is absolutely down to the wire. Ive done a couple of interviews here but everyone else is very, very busy as the judges get ready to judge everything. Michael, youve been here the whole time. Youre one of the organizers of this event. Can you tell us how this has been? When did this event start? [1:51]
MP: All the volunteers who started on this started quite early yesterday. Myself, I woke up at 5.00am in the morning to help to get this started. Teams started showing up about... some early at 7.30am but really, everything started at about 8.00am. We introduced everybody, we took a look at what ideas they brought to the table, formed some teams and since then, theyve been hacking away non-stop. [2:15]
AL: These are ad hoc teams. These are teams that did not arrive as teams. These arrived as volunteers? [2:19]
MP: Many teams did come with their friends or their co-workers to work together but there are some people who showed up solo, looking and hoping to meet someone who would share their vision. They had an idea, they knew they wouldnt get it done in time on their own and they hooked up with other people here. Its nice to see that. *2:35]
AL: Youre one of the judges of this event. Any early favorites you can share with us? [2:38]
MP: I am one of the judges. I dont think it would be fair to share any early favorites but what I can say is that every single one of these people have been working extremely hard to get their work done. My work starts when their work finishes and Russell and I here are going to be doing the best that we can to pick the best teams. [2:56]
AL: Terrific! What exactly are you looking for then when youre talking about these projects? Whats the criteria that makes one better than another? So far, Ive talked to someone whos designing a price finding application that uses Google Glass. I talked to Amir whos creating essentially a decentralized Silk Road, open market sort of thing. It seems like there is a lot of diversity just in the two that Ive already talked to. Whats the criteria? [3:18]
MP: Very good point. Each project is different and some projects work with Bitcoin, other projects work with Ethereum, other projects dont use either. Its going to be quite a difficult judging process but were going to take a look at the idea, were going to take a look at how many people were working on the idea. Were going to make sure that all the work was done here, or at least the majority of the work was done here at the Hackathon. The last thing wed want to see is someone who had been working on something for six months; they launch it here and just try to get the prize. Im not going to say its going to be an easy process but each of us judges, were going to take a look at the work thats put in, the quality of the product thats come out. Its one thing to have a great idea but really, the Hackathon is about execution of that idea. [3:59]
AL: Execution is so critical in this industry. Its something that we see over and over again, is that the ideas actually are easy and sometimes you just stumble over them because they are a problem that needs to be solved but the implementation is really the hard part. You mention that the projects are focusing on Bitcoin or Ethereum. Were in Bitcoin Decentral and I know that Anthony Di Iorio, the director of the Alliance of Canada has a founding role within the Ethereum project. Is Bitcoin Decentral, or is the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada.... are you about more than just Bitcoin now or is the focus expanding? [4:30]
MP: Good question. The Bitcoin Alliance of Canada is focused on Bitcoin in Canada, however the space that were in, Bitcoin Decentral, this is a co-working space that deals with all types of decentralized apps, Ethereum being one of them. There are a lot of people who work out of this place just on Ethereum. When the In Crypto We Trust Hackathon was being formed, Russell thought it would be a great idea to make sure that all types of cryptocurrencies are represented. As long as it deals with crypto or with any kind of decentralization, it has a place here at the Hackathon. [4:58]
AL: Has the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada taken any sort of position on Ethereum beyond the implicit support thats been given? Is there an official stance or a thought that there will be an official stance, at some point? Or is it just kind of more focused on Bitcoin and there might be an Ethereum Alliance of Canada also, at some point, but thats a different thing? [5:16]
MP: The Bitcoin Alliance of Canada hasnt taken a stance on Ethereum mostly because Ethereum hasnt launched yet. When the Alliance formed, Bitcoin had been around for a few years and we saw a need for an advocacy group to promote, protect and educate people about Bitcoin in Canada. When Ethereum launches, something very similar may crop up or maybe the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada may choose to expand. Thats something for the members to decide, not for the directors. [5:39]
AL: Terrific. Michael, so the last question is, this is a Hackathon its a contest. What are the prizes? [5:44]
MP: There are quite a few prizes. Theres a $20,000 prize donated by BitAngels thats going to go to the lead team as judged by the judges. Theres also a variety of other prizes such as VIP tickets to the conference. I know there is a Casascius coin thats been donated from Bitcoinsultants to one of the teams. There are a variety of different prizes. [6:06]
AL: Cool, well this sounds great. Michael, thank you very much for your time. [6:09]
MP: Thank you. [6:11]
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Adam B. Levine interview with Emmanuel Delmoly
ED: Hello, my name is Emmanuel Delmoly from BitCredits from Montreal. [6:27]
AL: Im standing here with Emmanuel. Emmanuel is not actually participating in a Hackathon. Instead, he along with Alex, who weve talked with before about BitCredits, have sponsored this, or are one of the sponsors and have... Im looking at a system right now that says Vote for your favorite team and it lets people vote with actual value in Bitcoin, which is an idea that Ive really been interested in for quite a long time. Can you give me a brief overview of what were looking at here and how this works? *6:53+
ED: Yeah, exactly. Tonight, were going to have the vote of the judge for the winning team but this will be the vote of the public. The idea is to allow anybody on the internet, or during the Expo, so this will last until the end of the Expo. Anybody will be able to send a few bucks, or whatever they want, to the team that they like. They vote for one or many teams. Weve done a little gamification of that, which means that if you send $10 to one team, half of it will go to a jackpot and half of it will go to the team. The team will have $5 whatever happens but the other $5 on the jackpot will be won by the winning team at the end of the vote. Thats the carrot that the team will try to get. The idea is to broadcast that on Twitter, on Reddit and all the team will talk to their friends and we want to show how cool Bitcoin can be like and how creative we can use bitcoins, actually, for a voting system a quick, simple voting system. [7:58]
AL: How long ago did you start developing this system? [8:00]
ED: We built that in one day actually. Behind that, there is a payment processor. BitCredits, the app itself we built that in one day but the payment processor behind that... that, its not a one day work, its a big platform but we just want to show that we can use that platform for cool stuff. [8:23]
AL: Besides voting, what other things do you think that something like this can enable, or not even besides voting, what other types of things do you think that this could enable? [8:32]
ED: Definitely being toward the micro-transactions. It makes so much sense. I come from the social game industry, so I know how effective can be micro-transactions and how PayPal and credit cards sucks on that. For newspapers, for blogs, for a lot of different things, this is what we really want to see in the future but right now, we are exploring a lot of new creative ways to use that new digital cash. [9:06]
AL: You mention that there was a gamified aspect of it that involves this jackpot but when you initially said it, I was thinking you were talking about for the user, for the person who was donating, or for the person who was tipping but it sounds like this is an additional prize thats like the Peoples Choice award, so to speak. *9:21+
ED: Yeah. Right now, its a very small gamification and its all for the team so they have to win, so that they will play in a way that if there is two or three teams, like very close to be winning, they are going to try to find friends to send more bitcoins to try to get the jackpot. Its the first step actually. *9:41+
AL: I was going to ask you about that. [9:42]
ED: We have a lot of ideas about more sophisticated gamification. [9:46]
AL: Sure, yeah. Thats the thing about these Hackathons, everyone wants to keep it simple so that you can get done with the time limit. That is one question that I do have is about the gamification because teams can vote for themselves, and you cant really tell, do you have any concern about that, or do you think that enough of the teams will have... [10:02]
ED: All the teams can vote for themselves so its ok. You can vote as many times as you want. Its not like you take one vote and its done. Its all about voting with bitcoins and trying to capture as many people... I dont think people will vote with $1,000 or $2,000. Its more about how many people you can gather and they need to do that because they have very, very cool projects. I have seen like there are nine or ten teams, nine yesterday and now I think there is ten because there was a split. They have amazing, amazing ideas. The idea behind that is to broadcast those ideas, to show those ideas, to show that there are people trying to innovate on top of the innovation that is already like Bitcoin. [10:42]
AL: Very cool. I see that youre going to be setting this up at a web site. What is the address if people would like to visit this and try out the tool? [10:48]
ED: Its not live yet but it will be www.Hackathon.BitCredit.io. [10:55]
AL: OK, terrific. This is really going to take a week or so to get out. Is this still going to be up at that point? [10:59]
ED: Yeah, they will see the results but actually the vote will last until the end of the Expo and the concept. [11:10]
AL: Fair enough. [11:10]
ED: Were going to stop at around 6.00pm on Sunday and then, after that, people will see the votes, and the winning team, and the project, and the contact, if they want to talk with those teams (??) It will last the (??) [11:22]
AL: Terrific. [11:23]
ED: If it works, were going to offer that to any Hackathon around for cryptocurrency. [11:27]
AL: Emmanuel, thank you very much for your time. [11:29]
ED: Youre welcome. Thank you Adam. [11:31]
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Adam B. Levine interview with Brian Xu
BX: Were from a company called IdeaNotion. We are a local Toronto shop doing consulting so we build web and mobile apps and as you can see, Im wearing Google Glass right now. [11:56]
AL: I do see that. [11:57]
BX: We build Glass apps as well. [12:01]
AL: Tell me about the application youre building for the Hackathon. Were now on the final day, a couple of hours away from the deadline. What did you build? [12:08]
BX: We built a Google Glass app for bitcoins. The app consists of three components. One is a simple Bitcoin ticker, so it basically shows you the Bitcoin value and it updates periodically by itself. The second part is a Bitcoin calculator, so it will convert ten different currencies so you can read it to the app, to your Glass, and it will convert ten different currencies into Bitcoin values. [12:33]
AL: Cool. [12:34]
BX: The third part is that you can read it off a... use the Glass camera off a price tag and then the app will OCR it and then convert that also into Bitcoin values. Hopefully, it gives you some access information, I dont know, to Bitcoin to allow you to know how much that is. [12:54]
AL: Sure. OCR means that basically, the machine can read it and then it does the conversion on mass. [12:58]
BX: Exactly, exactly. [12:59]
AL: You guys started building this a couple of days ago? How far along are you? Are you happy with the project? [13:05]
BX: Were very happy about the project. Again, we are pretty much done at this point. There are some bugs we are trying to fix and some final usability issues, sort of pay the store is supposed to be at the end as opposed to the front and things like that but overall were pretty happy and it should be pretty good. [13:26]
AL: I see people walking around with Google Glass but its not really something that Ive done... is this the sort of thing that you think is going to catch on? Do you see this stuff in the future? [13:34]
BX: Yes, we definitely think so. Google Glass and wearables, in general, as in Googles announced the wearable APIs, as well there field start-ups in Toronto are doing a lot of different wearables, as well, such as the one (??) with the wristband that uses your heartbeat to capture and authenticate you. Overall, all the wearables will catch on and thats going to be the trend. *14:03+
AL: If somebody has heard this interview and is interested in learning more about your company, where can they get in touch with, who should they get involved with? [14:10]
BX: They can contact IdeaNotion, or just reach me Brian@IdeaNotion.net. [14:18]
AL: Thank you very much for your time and we look forward to seeing the results. [14:21]
BX: Cool, thanks. [14:22]
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ANNOUNCEMENT:
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Adam B. Levine interview with Amir Taaki
AL: Were here at the Bitcoin Decentral Hackathon in Toronto, Canada. This is my first time in Canada and Im here with Amir Taaki, one of my favorite people in the Bitcoin space. [15:56]
AT: Ah come on! Dont big me up so much. *15:59+
AL: Oh come on. Youre the big idealist. I love the idealist side of this thing man. Thats the thing about it. [16:03]
AT: Its cool. Bitcoins well interesting. Its very different isnt it? Its not one of these yuppie things like Twitter. Its an actual core technology isnt it? *16:16+
AL: Yeah. Thats the thing. Its a protocol. Its a protocol so unlike Twitter, Twitter is not a protocol. Twitter has the ability to be influencing all these other things. Before we get off into that topic... [16:26]
AT: Which is a long topic. (Laughter) [16:29]
AL: Which is a long topic. (Laughter) You told me as soon as I got in that youve been up all night working on this project called Dark Market. Could you just explain this briefly what were looking at here? *16:39+
AT: Yeah. Its basically a decentralized Silk Road that cant be shut down or censored with some privacy features. Its not like a production ready... we just did it more as like a proof of concept, a prototype, to show that its possible. The technology is already there and it has all the basic features that people need to trade freely that we can use to claim our sovereignty as individuals, trading one with another. You have the front page. [17:15]
AL: Im looking at this and it says Submit query, Search for nickname so you can search for individuals on the marketplace. [17:24]
AT: Yeah, yeah. [17:25]
AL: Youve got a peers here with query SHA. These people youve added to your... *17:29+
AT: No, no, no... the nicknames... theres like a special blockchain. That blockchain, each block is registered in the Bitcoin blockchain and it groups sets of registrations together like that and then embeds the hash in the Bitcoin blockchain. With that, you can query a mapping of someones nickname to some public key. [17:54]
AL: Its like a DNS system for public? *17:56+
AT: Exactly. Putting the payments protocol into Bitcoin is ludicrously stupid idea because it doesnt benefit small business, it doesnt benefit peer to peer transfers, and it doesnt benefit the black market. The only thing it benefits is Bitcoin corporations that can go to all the hassle of setting that up, setting up their SSL certificates and relying on compromised certificate authorities that we know large nation states, like Iran, or the NSA, has already compromised that infrastructure. We have Bitcoin and we have the blockchain so we use that and thats... if people want to really trade with their sovereignty intact, we need to use the only form of distributed consensus that we know in technology, which is the blockchain. Thats what we have. You can type nickname there. *18:53+
AL: This is built on top of Bitcoin and its actually embedding data into the Bitcoin blockchain. [18:57]
AT: Yeah, yeah but its only 20 bytes every few hours so its absolutely minimal. Way, way small. [19:05]
AL: OK. Youve got peers up here and I see a button that says Query Shop next to it. What happens if we click that button? [19:10]
AT: Yeah, yeah. It opens a shop front. [19:11]
AL: OK. That opens that particular persons shop. *19:14+
AT: Then theres going to be a description of the product with pictures and stuff. [19:20]
AL: People can leave reviews. Are those reviews credited to their (??) [19:23]
AT: Yeah, yeah. The reviews are here at the bottom and also I can leave a review. (Typing) Brilliant guy... 5 out of 5... submit, and it appears there. [19:35]
AL: Interesting. [19:37]
AT: Also, I can... which one was that? That was like the pink... the purple... I think it was this one and I can click Buy by the product. I want to buy your medicinal pills. [19:53]
AL: Youre typing into this text field I want to buy your medicinal pills and then youre submitting that. Youre not actually selecting an item so much as you are sending that person a message. [20:02]
AT: Yeah, yeah. [20:02]
AL: This is obviously a proof of concept. [20:04]
AT: Yeah, it was only one night so we did the simplest thing but ideally youd have each seller with different products. You click the product. Ive got a multi-sig escrow address; I put that in my Bitcoin Clan. [20:18]
AL: OK. Now, how does one get a multi-sig escrow address? Is this generating multi-sig escrow addresses for you? [20:24]
AT: Yeah, its generating it. *20:25+
AL: OK. [20:25]
AT: Then I send some bitcoins to there for the product, then I put the transaction ID in there, I click Paid, the seller confirms that he received it and he says Im shipping the good, then finally, you say OK, I got the good and you release the funds by generating the signature to release the money to him. Then he can reclaim the money but if at any time during that process there is a dispute, you can go to the mutual arbiter that youve both agreed upon together. Here we have identity, which is like your nicknames, you have... [21:02]
AL: Can anyone be an arbiter in this system? Can any of these participants or only special participants that can be arbiters? [21:07]
AT: No, no, no, anybody can be arbiters but people have to choose you as an arbiter. Ideally, arbiters would have ratings. [21:14]
AL: Just like in real life. [21:14]
AT: Yeah, in real life. [21:15]
AL: OK. [21:16]
AT: It would be an open market so you have identity that you can look up the people by nicknames, instead of these weird hashes, which is the Holy Grail of crypto. You have seller pages, you have reputation and we also have multi-sig escrow and also private messaging. [21:34]
AL: (Laughter) Youve built this in the last 24 hours? *21:38+
AT: Yeah, yeah. [21:39]
AL: Thats fun. (Laughter) *21:41+
AT: Thats basically all the features you need. *21:44+
AL: Is this the rest of the team? [21:44]
AT: Yeah, its designer; he made it all look pretty and stuff... good job man. Its wicked. [21:50]
Designer William (DW): Youre welcome. Hi. *21:52+
AT: Whats your name? *21:53+
DW: Im William and Ive basically been running interference helping these guys stay focused and operating... so, efficiency. [21:59]
AL: Cool. [21:59]
AT: Williams also a Libbitcoin contributor. Hes been working on Lib wallet a lot. Mainly the functionality related to the wallet part of Libbitcoin, like the key stuff. [22:12]
AL: For people who arent familiar with Libbitcoin; this is your reimplementation of the Bitcoin specification in a modular version as opposed to everything being wrapped into one core, right? [22:22]
AT: Do you want me to go into that? [22:23]
AL: Its probably a longer interview. I do want to get to one other thing though, while Ive got you real quick. You said that the payment protocol is a bad idea to implement because it doesnt help small businesses. *22:34+
AT: Yeah, of course. [22:34]
AL: Whats the barrier to entry on that because I wasnt aware that there was much of a barrier to entry? [22:39]
AT: That you need to get all these SSL certificates; pay for them. If youre just like some kid with no money, the whole point about Bitcoin is its like everybody can get in there. *22:49+
AL: So it adds a barrier to entry. [22:52]
AT: If you need credit cards, you need to set up a VPS, configure your Apache, all this crap. No, its not a good idea if youre going to trade on Silk Road. For instance, I have asthma and the other day... Im in a strange country and I know exactly what I need to get, I go to the pharmacy and its like for $20... Oh no, you need to go to the doctor. I go to the doctor and Im like Look, I just need a prescription. Hes like No, you need to pay $150, and you need to wait in the waiting room for half a day. Fucking hell. Who is that protecting? Its just punishing people; its nonsense. Its a sign of how all the jackboots have been pushed into our face that now we have to ask permission or we dont even have control over what we ingest into our own bodies. Two days ago, a journalist from the New York Times came to visit me here and we were walking in the street and Im telling him about there are so many hackers, in Hackerspaces, they just build technology for themselves little toys, tinkering but there is no social motive behind that. Theyre not actually making technology for people which is what technology is; a tool for people to use. We walked into a bar, or what we thought was a bar and it happened to be the Toronto Hackerspace and right there, was all these toy trains and toy 3D (??) printers and we were laughing. We were talking political stuff and the people there were in favor of censorship of the internet; the hackers. They were really in their mental boxes who will protect us? What about the bad guys? Such black and white thinking. There are no bad guys. There are different motives. When the Soviet Union fell, the people had no idea how to do business. They thought they were incapable of doing business because their whole lives theyd been told how they should operate in the market. In some sense, were not as extreme as that but we have lost our sense of integrity. Why not to be with our friends; to network with the people around us and try to do the things together? Its possible and we have the technology to do it and the tools, the industry, the different projects of economy around the world and this is why I think Silk Road is so important because it goes beyond just about the buying drugs. Its a deeper question... like the internet. [25:39]
AL: When youre talking about this thats the feeling that I get from you is that its not about any particular object, its about it not being about a particular object, its about it being open commerce and a real open market where the barrier to entry is people wanting to do business with each other and finding ways to make that work. These are basically just tools to create that. Really what youre talking about is just creating a fair market? *25:59+
AT: Yeah, well I told you the story about asthma. Also, in Europe there are lots of seeds from local regions with different health benefits, many dozens of them but because of some bureaucrats, who just say Oh, these are the ones that are allowed and everything off that list is illegal. All the local recipes or local natural medicines... [26:31]
AL: Local. Theyre local. *26:31+
AT: Yeah, theyre just banned and they cant be sold on the internet but with Bitcoin they can. I have a friend who goes to the fruit markets after theyve closed and you know theres like the apples with a dent in it, or the tomato thats gone a bit soft; theres nothing wrong with it. Its just they cant sell it so they chuck it out. He takes that and he makes marmalade with it and he sells cheap marmalade but because of the EU regulations, health and safety, blah, blah, blah, he cant sell it on the internet. With Bitcoin, you can. This is great use of otherwise wasted food. Why not? [27:08]
AL: Let me play devils advocate here. What if somebody... what if he sells that on the internet for Bitcoin to someone who is in the same country, or in a different country and that person gets sick and dies because thats something with canned goods, the consequences are pretty serious if you get it wrong. [27:22]
AT: All of last year, I had no money and I spent... the way I ate was going to supermarkets and skipping their bins. They throw out a lot of good food in the packaging because its a day past sell by and its perfectly edible. Theres a huge amount of waste in our society...
AL: Im not arguing about that. *27:42+
AT: ...and this waste is not driven by the market, its driven by consumerism, by borrowing, by growth and overconsumption. Its not about making the things you have go further. Its about borrowing on debt, about living outside of your means and thats not the world that I want to live in. The whole planet is being destroyed. When I was living in California, I start to discover about the nature around me and its absolutely depressing how the ecosystem is being destroyed and were destroying all of our food stocks, replacing all the diversity which helps us to live, to be healthy, with pests and parasites. This is the legacy were leaving to our children who are going to pay. Its not us who have to pay. We just burn the oil and its going to run out and thats that. *28:46+
AL: Amir Taaki, I really look forward to hearing more from you over the next couple of days. I think this is not going to be our only interview. Thank you very much for your time and good work on this project. [28:56]
AT: Good to meet you. [28:56]
AL: Yeah absolutely. Its good to finally meet you too. *28:58+
AT: Thats wicked. *28:59+
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Adam B. Levine interview with Ron Dembo
RD: Hi, Im Ron Dembo, founder and CEO of Zerofootprint. Prior to that I was the founder and CEO of Algorithmics (?? Inaudible) company and prior to that (?? Inaudible). [29:26]
AL: Tell me about Zerofootprint. What is it that you do at Zerofootprint? [29:30]
RD: At Zerofootprint, we have a mission to make large scale behavior change feasible, so in particular, we began with pure environmental issues; things like reduction in carbon on a large scale but, more recently, weve moved to more of what would be called a sustainability agenda, or what we call it a good agenda. That is, health is a very big part of it as well as environment. Thats based on simply the fact that health and energy and water and food are all interlinked. You cant really ignore one and leave the other and think youve really done holistic change. *30:15+
AL: When it comes to holistic change, youre saying that Zerofootprint enables large users to do this? What does it do that enables large users to do this where they couldnt on their own? [30:26]
RD: What we do is we link users who do a good action, lets say the action is walking 30 mins a day so that you get healthier, with people who are interested in funding that event and with products that are good for them. Essentially, we track a life cycle of good. An example might be a life insurance company that would like to know that you are actually exercising 30 mins a day because their costs will go down if theyre insuring you, so they motivate you to do this by giving you Goodcoins for walking 30 mins a day. Whats really changed recently and why were actually in business, is the fact that you can measure this. In other words, you can do this on an evidence-based basis. If I track your Nike band, or your Moves app and it tells me how much youve moved, based on that, I can actually reward you and then I can link you to other products and services that are good, particularly for you. We do this through a mechanism called Bitcoin and bitcoins really are a currency its a parallel currency that works very well in a bartering situation. You walk 30 mins a day and you can translate that into buying good food, or a reduction on good food. You save energy and you can get bitcoins and use those to buy devices that will improve your health. The life cycle of a bitcoin is controlled, as opposed to say the life cycle of any air mile program. [32:20]
AL: Lets talk about that for a second. It sounds to me like what youre doing is youre quantifying. You talked about the bracelets and things like that. Those are devices that have motion sensors in them, and things like that, that then are able to quantify... thats really what youre talking about here at Zerofootprint, I think, is quantifying these events that you have classified as good, right? [32:40]
RD: In a sense, one of the things that were doing thats really new is were doing everything on an evidence-based basis. [32:47]
AL: When you talk about an evidence-based basis, this is compared to something where someone commits to doing something, they say I will do this and then you say OK, well well pay you in advance for that, rather youre saying Do the work first and use these various ways to prove that youve done the work and then youll be compensated for the work that youve actually done. *33:06+
RD: Yeah, so for example, if you think of many governmental programs, what you typically have is the government comes out with a program to get you to eat well, or walk, or whatever and those programs are funded up front rather than on the back end. If you walk, Ill pay you but not otherwise. Whats happened is there is a proliferation of devices out there now and its growing exponentially. Think of Googles contact lens that will measure your glucose levels. If you are a diabetic and you keep your glucose levels within certain ranges during the day, as measured by your contact lens, we will reward you we, being the person who benefits from that. It could be the Department of Health, it could be an insurance company, and it could be your business, your office. [33:59]
AL: Is that information transparent? In this particular example that youre giving me, do you think that Google would be able to actually see my glucose levels, or would they just be able to see that they were within this range? Are you, as the company, doing the quantifying, doing any sort of filtering like this, or providing any sort of buffer, or is it just transparency through. [34:21]
RD: There would be buffers for every device. For example, we use a device now thats on your iPhone. Its a $2 app that allows you measure whether you walk, bike or run today and how much you did and that device obviously is model based in their errors. There is no model that is 100% correct, its really... a big saying in statistics is All models are wrong but some are useful. This model, to some degree, gives you a fairly good reading on how many steps you took today. Based on that number of steps, we can sort of calibrate that model to say a Nike band, which also measures steps. It probably comes up with a different number and based on those numbers you can think of it as an index, we can actually determine how much you walk and reward you for walking enough. [35:13]
AL: OK, cool. When it comes to the rewards on these, I heard you talking about examples that have people who are kind of already invested in me, right? My insurance company would care that I am taking steps to not need to use my insurance. That seems like something they would clearly want to incentivize. Really, it seems like what youre doing here is youre providing a middle layer where companies, that you have a relationship with already, want you to do stuff based on that relationship that will make their relationship with you better. You, essentially, provide the incentive layer where youre able to measure those things that those companies would like you to do and then to also compensate for doing those things. Youre providing an incentive layer here, right? Thats what this program really is. [35:58]
RD: Beyond that to the insurer, obviously subject to privacy, what we determine at some level are who are the people who are most susceptible to a particular type of reward, which is very useful information for say, I dont know, Wholefoods and might want to sell organic food. [36:17]
AL: OK. [36:18]
RD: If Im someone who is very diligent about walking every day, Im more likely, and I care about the world, Im more likely to want to buy organic food than if I was just an average person in the population. [36:30]
AL: Theres also a working element to it too. *36:33+
RD: We do identify whatever good is, so in the example of some of the things that were involved in now, we have three cities, two of which I can talk about but one of which, in that city, were looking at reductions in electricity, gas and water and walking, simultaneously. You can imagine that if I found a person who was very diligent about reducing their energy and walk every day now, theyre more likely to be someone who would be interested in doing good for the world. Some of these selling products that are good for the world would more likely be able to sell to those people. We provide that niche market. We know who is interested in good and hence the name Goodcoins. [37:29]
AL: Lets talk about Goodcoins for a second. These are a token and generally, when we talk about tokens on the Lets Talk Bitcoin show, were talking about full on cryptocurrency that you can then take and trade for any other cryptocurrency. From the conversation that you and I had earlier, it doesnt sound like thats the case with this one. Can you kind of talk about what this coin is? How its different from others? What type of utility you think it has? [37:52]
RD: There are two aspects that are different. One is the collateral that you want for the coin is some social good that has occurred... you walked on this day, you reduced energy, and so on. That, in some sense, backs the coin. The other difference is that the coin is not fungible into other currencies, except other currencies that do good, for example, it might be fungible into a unit of some charity, or it might be fungible into something thats inherently good like a device to help you with your health. You can think of it more like a barter currency. Youre bartering one form of good for another. Its not a currency that you could imagine that one would speculate with. Imagine if the worst comes to the worst and someone steals my Goodcoins, well all they can do with them is buy good stuff, so its not going to be damaging in the worst case. [38:57]
AL: Why would somebody want to have Goodcoins if theyre not exchangeable for other things, because one can make an argument that stock isnt exchangeable for other things and yet stock has value and yet stock can appreciate. What gives Goodcoins value? [39:13]
RD: They are exchangeable for products that are good, for example, I can buy an organic chicken with 2,000 bitcoins because we being in a society were in might deem that organic chickens are good for you. [39:28]
AL: Who sets those prices if the market isnt allowed to do that and who would sell you the chicken? Why would someone sell you a chicken for something that cant be then used for something else? [39:40]
RD: Imagine Wholefoods wants to sell more chickens and they want to drive you to their store. Im just using them as an example; we dont have a deal with Wholefoods. They actually come and put an ad on your site, effectively I think it would look like a coupon and that coupon would give you some good reason to go into their store, like this month only youd get 10% reduction on chicken with 2,000 bitcoins. The Goodcoins, in this case, are marketing currency for Wholefoods but they are your bartering currency as an owner of a Goodcoin wallet. In that case, its a pure marketing effort on the part of Wholefoods but because weve deemed, or society has deemed that the organic chicken they sell is good for you, or the local food they sell is good for the local economy, that bartering is allowed. Effectively the coins do have value and, in this case, they translate the Wholefoods into marketing value. In the case of other devices, the person selling that device gets to be interested in more than one thing that they sell, so its driving you to their store. Thats where the value comes to be. [40:53]
AL: Its like a rebate system for the entire ecosystem of good as opposed to being centered on one particular thing. When people are talking about tokens again, in a cryptocurrency paradigm, when Wholefoods received a Goodcoin, they would then be able to sell that back onto the market. What happens to Goodcoins when they are spent? [41:14]
RD: They are retired or, in some cases bartered for other good. If Wholefoods wants to reward its employees with Goodcoins which they could then spend on a glucose meter, they can do that. In other words, lets say youre Airbnb gives you Goodcoins for every Airbnb booking, its probable that Goodcoins go through a life cycle of bartering but in each case, the bartering is for good. [41:48]
AL: Ron Dembo, thanks for sharing your project with us. To learn more, visit their website at www.Goodcoins.ca. [41:57]
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ADVERT:
Hey folks, Adam B. Levin here with some updates. Firstly, www.BitcoinPackaging.com is launched and is ready for orders. You might not think that you need a sleeve of 100 bioplastic drink cups but as Bitcoin becomes more mainstream, more of the businesses you eat at will have a need for this sort of thing. When they ask what they can do with the bitcoin people pay to them, now you can tell them that all their food service packaging is available for below their current cost when they spend it with www.BitcoinPackaging.com. [42:34]
ANNOUNCEMENT:
This is one of our many attempts to help close the loop. In other news, there are two side to every story and Mike Hearn, who was mentioned at length during Episode 106 with Amir Taaki, very much disagrees with some of the things said. Notably, that he collaborated with Dutch police, hes working with Circle (hes on the advisory board but isnt an employee) and also took issue with how Amir described being removed from the Bitcoin security list. To read his full comments, visit www.letstalkbitcoin.com/counterpoint. [43:02]
Back to the show! [43:04]
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Stephanie Murphy interview with Ernest Hancock
SM: Im here talking with Ernest Hancock. Ernest is an old friend of mine and he is a radio show host and a Freedom activist. He runs the popular Freedom website, www.freedomsphoenix.com. That was a lot of Freedom. [43:19]
EH: Freeeeedom! With an S www.freedomsphoenix.com. Fortunately, my brother-in-law lives here and hes a bond raider at Moodys, so you can imagine the interesting conversations we have. [43:32]
SM: Very interesting. [43:33]
EH: I got him to commit to coming to an hour tomorrow, so I was hoping to get the best.... the best thing is, is that we get MaidSafe, www.MaidSafe.net. MaidSafe is a distributed, off- the-grid, totally encrypted, everything, kind of peer to peer internet and I took their White papers and sent them... weve got enough ubergeeks in the libertarian movement and I said Take a look at this. Is this what I think it is?.... and theyre Yep! It was what we thought, as young activists back when we were a lot of these revolutionaries age twenty five years ago, that the internet would go to a... you would have all the information on bulletin boards, or on your own servers, or distributed amongst peoples computers and empty space on hard drives. We would be the internet, not this internet service provider that would have the NSA arms and legs wrapped around their data lines. We thought that was where the internet was going to go. When it went to the World Wide Web and all this centralized mind-set, it kind of went down the darkside but there were a lot of people, like David Irvine, that saw this as a server guy back in the 90s and they started creating their own stuff for the last seven or eight years. What we did is we said Do you know what? What were go ahead and do is were going to go ahead and create this type of distributed internet thats encrypted and everythings accessible to anybody, encrypted, and I could see that this was a manifestation of what we were thinking about twenty five years ago. When I had the ubergeeks and the Liberty movement look at it, if this is what I thought it was (and they started getting excited people I respected), so I go Yep! Im booking my trip to New York, so here I am. I got to meet them and they were sitting there talking in the forums, so they introduced me to the reporter from Forbes and they explained why I was so excited about them. I go to the Forbes and Im like You guys have no idea what... you dont understand... as much as they didnt understand Bitcoin, they dont understand this new technology. I am of the opinion that if this pans out what theyre doing, and theyre speaking tomorrow they got added to the program, there is so much interest in them, they were like OK. Im bringing my brother-in-law and were going to get a Moodys guy in here. Hes going to be the smartest guy at the water cooler and its going to be a presentation of what I think is the future of the internet. Well see if Ernies right... again! [46:03]
SM: Yeah, Ernies been right before. (Laughter) [46:06]
EH: Its going to be fun. I look forward to promoting... Ive had them on twice. If you just do a Google search on David Irvine, Ernest Hancock or MaidSafe.net and FreedomsPhoenix, the two shows we did will come up. One was introduction and the other one was after I had some of our guys take a look at the technical White papers first and some validation of whats coming. People should pay attention to that. I think thats going to be awesome! [46:34]
SM: Youre really excited about MaidSafe. What do you want it for? Why do we need a decentralized internet? [46:41]
EH: What it offers is the ability at the root to be encrypted for every 1 and 0 that goes over any communication that we do. Thats not just things like Bitcoin, its not just things like being able to download and pirate and do... and everything. Its all 1s and 0s that nobody gets to see and you can do whatever you want. The thing is, is that they try to couch it as Yeah, but youd be like buying drugs and getting hookers, or something (not that theres a problem with that). (Laughter) [47:13]
SM: Nobody does that with cash. [47:16]
EH: Yeah. See, thats my point. The whole thing is, is that its not about what you do with your freedom, its about having your freedom. For me is that, I dont care what you do with your freedom, I just want to be free. Its about me, not you. Its like puritans all over the planet worrying about somebody having fun somewhere. The thing is, is that what it really is and the power behind it for me, is that when we were at Texas Bitcoin conference it was the same issue. There is not a mechanism by which I can donate to liberty causes anonymously. Not even with Bitcoin. Im going That is where the power is, that you can donate unlimited amounts of money to yourself and go over a border to someone else for some project that you support, and not have any kind of repercussions from the Man. Once that happens, the government just becomes anachronistic and its over. I think its within... you know, really close on the horizon. I see the storm clouds and I think the Man does too. [48:13]
SM: You think thats going to happen? The governments going to become, basically, obsolete as these technologies come out? Theres not going to be a violent revolution... its a peaceful evolution? [48:21]
EH: No, well it will be violent to them. Theyll make it violent and I mean, theyll be going around. It is violent and theyre going to have Billy clubs beating the crap out of anybody that doesnt lick their boots fast enough. *48:29+
SM: Good point, yeah. [48:30]
EH: The violence is already there but its not sought by us. They need the violence to justify their existence. What happened was is Im like I see that there is the ability for us, you and I, and anybody, for us to communicate in any way with financial transactions, communication, biscuit recipes, whatever that the Man doesnt have any kind of ability to stop it, to regulate it or to socially or economically engineer which one we do or how we do it. Once that happens, the government becomes anachronistic. Let me give you an example a year and a half ago, after I saw what Bitcoin represented, my wife Donna and I, we bought, at an auction, some land in Northern Arizona. We took that land and we said You know what? Were not going to register it with the County Recorder. What were going to do is were just going to keep it, transfer it from... have him take possession in a Trust, then sell it to a Trust that we did and then not file it, waiting for BitLand, BitParcel, BitSomething and we register it with that. Now, well pay the taxes. I dont want to deal with that issue but what I want to do is not register it with the government, I register it with the planet of a blockchain that we recognize Yep! Thats the GPS coordinates of your whatever... *49:48+
SM: Right. [49:49]
EH: ...who will enforce it, who will recognize it. I dont care. First youve got to be able to do it. When you do it, what does that mean? You dont need a County Recorder anymore because Im going How do you recognize a property right? First, youve got to define it, then whos going to enforce it? Well, the government doesnt enforce it. They just side with the banks no matter what and foreclosure of whatever and who pays them enough. Im just going They already lost their credibility, so now Im looking for another way to demonstrate how this can eliminate the County Recorder because that was a roadblock in my own mind. Once I saw that this could be done, all of a sudden Im going Awww baby! Its all over. You just start chipping away at all the things that government say that they have in my service. Well, they dont. This was just another example. MaidSafe allows that on like everything. Any 1s and 0s on communication over Outernet, which is the cube sats. They just launched in February, thirty three small satellites and boom! Theyre done. [50:51]
SM: Amazing! The future is here. [50:53]
EH: Done! Done! Done! [50:55]
SM: (Laughter) Youre also really excited about BitShares, right? *50:57+
EH: What happened was Joby Weeks and Stephanie are good friends and they did their neon energy drink. They sponsored an event right by Wall Street. There they have fifty feet from the opening to Wall Street... the building there, where they have people come in with suitcases of cash and theyre buying Bitcoin and selling, and back and forth. Theyre doing and buying shares in companies. I talked to the guys in BitShares here and wanted to have them come on the show and everything and explain to me how much more... its not security, its just more honest in having the ability of a transparent ownership of companies. Its just another... making government anachronistic. I dont need to have them regulate it. They cant regulate. Its totally outside of that and who represents the credibility and the validity of my ownership in some company using BitShares? Well, they do. If they dont do it, then I dont want to have anything to do with them anymore. Its going past Wall Street. I love it that they did it right next to it because Im going I can do this and own a piece of a company without having to file an IRS thing. I dont have to show my capital gains of how much I own and put it on the stock purchase, so if Im running for office and Ive got a declare this claim, whatever. [52:16]
SM: Without being an accredited investor too because right now, small investors cant really buy shares in companies. [52:22]
EH: It bypasses all social and economic engineering when they say Well, its to protect you. You should have limits on this or you can only do so much of that. [52:33]
SM: Right. Its for your own good. *52:35+
EH: I dont want them to even have that. If I screw up, guess what? I get edumacated pretty damn quick when I lose my money. [52:41]
SM: Right. [52:42]
EH: Thats the best regulator, is the free market. When I talk to people that are so much in the system and theyre so concerned about Well, somebodys going to get screwed. I go Good! That would be a lesson learned wont it? *52:53]
SM: Right. [52:54]
EH: Thats where the regulation is, is from the learning. There are going to be solutions out there. Weve got to get the nanny state out of our hair, so that all these things will blossom and Im seeing it happen. They had an event here where they had a bunch of pro-regulators and this guy was an aid to Chuck Schumer, this guy was an attorney for government, or whatever and someone who was a lobbyist for the Canadian government. Theyre all Well, youve got to have... so that its approved by government. Im going Why? One, you dont understand that what youre advocating, you cant regulate the blockchain. Thats the point. Youre talking about the third party people but they dont ever make that point. Im going What youre advocating for is a different cryptocurrency that can be regulated. Fine, knock yourself out but they dont advocate that because they know nobody will do it. They wont use it. Theyre trying to somehow get some kind of tentacles or just our brain around the idea of voluntarily allowing for regulation in Bitcoin. The argument is Well, youll be trading Bitcoin at Starbucks. I go Good! I thought that was what it was going to be anyway. [54:05]
SM: Right. [54:06]
EH: I dont understand your point. Later, after the event, some people got asked that question and made that point. A bunch of people said Thank God, somebody made that point and then the attorneys on the committee I had lunch with, Mark Edge and I are sitting there talking to this guy and Im going You know, I dont think you guys are being very forthright with the people that what youre really advocating. What youre talking about, you cant do. Thats the point. Im looking for... not kind of hacks in the system, or kind of fernangling, or I can do it better, or you got the just bug and its fourteen strokes on your keyboard, I want something that I dont have to have on their system, that hacks the entire thing by just avoiding it. www.MaidSafe.net. You keep an eye on that and youll see what Im talking about. *54:53+
SM: Yeah. Very cool. Ernie, thanks a lot. Anything you want to add? [54:56]
EH: Freedoms the answer. Whats the question? (Laughter) *55:00+
SM: (Laughter) I love it. You can find your website at www.freedomsphoenix.com and your radio show is there. [55:08]
EH: Declare your independence with Ernest Hancock! Oh, oh and you dont need me, you can do it yourself! Ah? I declared my independence see how easy it was? (Laughter) [55:16]
SM: (Laughter) I love it! Thank you so much Ernie. [55:19]
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CREDITS:
Thanks for listening to Episode 107 of Lets Talk Bitcoin.
Content for this episode was provided by Emmanuel of BitCredits, Brian of IdeaNotion, Michael Perklin, Amir Taaki, Ron Dembo, Stephanie Murphy, Ernie Hancock and Adam B. Levine This episode was edited by Adam B. Levine and Denise Levine Music for this episode was provided by Jared Rubens and General Fuzz
Any questions or comments? Email adam@letstalkbitcoin.com.