[7/1/14, 13:38:53] Steven Armstrong: Join us today for the Chat on the new "Martinism

Rosicrucian Digest" on Tue 7/1/14 at 4pm EDT! Here in this NEW Chat Window!

Read or listen to "Martinism: History of a Traditional Order" before the Skype discussion
at http://www.rosicrucian.org/publications/digest/digest1_2014/table_of_contents.html.

Make sure to "Star" this conversation as a favorite to save it for future chats!
[7/1/14, 15:25:03] RAFAEL CADENAS: .
[7/1/14, 15:29:30] RAFAEL CADENAS: ..
[7/1/14, 15:58:18] Sandra: Hello from New Hampshire
[7/1/14, 16:00:19] Steven Armstrong: Welcome all from the NYC RCC!
[7/1/14, 16:01:27] Sandra: The FIFA match just came on, US vs Belgium
[7/1/14, 16:01:47] Steven Armstrong: We might have low attendance today!
[7/1/14, 16:01:57] Sandra: yes, my thinking as well
[7/1/14, 16:03:58] Victoria Stephens: Hello from Califoria
[7/1/14, 16:04:05] Sandra: Hi Victoria
[7/1/14, 16:04:16] Victoria Stephens: :)
[7/1/14, 16:04:36] Steven Armstrong: We should make sure to send good energy
Northward, it is Canada Day!
[7/1/14, 16:05:08] Sandra: Lovely place to visit
[7/1/14, 16:06:11] Victoria Stephens: What is Canada Day
[7/1/14, 16:06:16] Steven Armstrong: So, any dreams or other effects of the Martinist
History article.
[7/1/14, 16:06:24] Steven Armstrong: The National Feast Day of Canada.
[7/1/14, 16:06:32] Victoria Stephens: Ah
[7/1/14, 16:06:40] Diana Myers: Hi!!!!!! (inlove)
[7/1/14, 16:06:54] Steven Armstrong: Greetings
[7/1/14, 16:07:02] Victoria Stephens: No. It was an interesting article...long but gave a
great little history lesson.
[7/1/14, 16:07:06] Victoria Stephens: Hi diana
[7/1/14, 16:07:08] Sandra: Good to see you here
[7/1/14, 16:07:44] Steven Armstrong: Not only for the Martinists, but so much went on in
the world during these years, 1754 to now!
[7/1/14, 16:08:13] Anne Cuenod: Sorry, skype was not responding. Hello everyone.
[7/1/14, 16:08:36] Sandra: It was odd for me earlier as well
[7/1/14, 16:09:04] Victoria Stephens: Hi anne
[7/1/14, 16:09:04] Steven Armstrong: Probably a lot of Skype Traffic re: FIFA
[7/1/14, 16:09:10] Sandra: yes
[7/1/14, 16:09:10] Diana Myers: Hi, I was very surprised to learn there was no organized
"order" before Papus
[7/1/14, 16:09:37] Steven Armstrong: yes, the history is different than many imagine.
[7/1/14, 16:09:58] Steven Armstrong: So any effect on your dreams, meditations?
[7/1/14, 16:10:17] Sandra: unfortunately none
[7/1/14, 16:10:28] Diana Myers: Hi Anne! And hi to everyone ....thank you for your
thoughts if healing. It meant a lot and as you can see, worked. I live! X (sun) (sun) (sun)
[7/1/14, 16:10:42] Anne Cuenod: It was also good that Chaboseau lived so long to keep
the Martinists true in the end.
[7/1/14, 16:10:44] Steven Armstrong: Great to hear Diana!
[7/1/14, 16:10:53] Victoria Stephens: I spent some time thinking about "the terrible
disease" of the superficially initiated.
[7/1/14, 16:11:06] Steven Armstrong: Are people reading or listening to the texts?
[7/1/14, 16:11:08] Anne Cuenod: So glad to hear you are well...!
[7/1/14, 16:11:20] Cecile Cuenod: Hello to you all. (sun)
[7/1/14, 16:11:22] Anne Cuenod: Both, reading and listening.
[7/1/14, 16:11:31] Victoria Stephens: Hi Cecile
[7/1/14, 16:11:54] Sandra: reading online and pulling up photos of the names in the
article
[7/1/14, 16:12:15] Cecile Cuenod: With all the setbacks, what is true remains.
[7/1/14, 16:12:40] Steven Armstrong: sounds like good multi-media use
[7/1/14, 16:12:52] Diana Myers: So, the interesting poem about theurgy. It was very
popular then, think with the help of John Dee. But ithe poem is so right. You never know
exactly what's going to show up, and these being can imitate even cosmic masters.
[7/1/14, 16:13:18] Steven Armstrong: So let's start at the beginning of our story. What's
Theurgy...a poem, can you share it?
[7/1/14, 16:14:07] Diana Myers: Sorry I am sort of having my own conversation about
the article! LOL.
[7/1/14, 16:14:13] Anne Cuenod: The use of angels and other beings as intermediaries for
reaching the heart of God.
[7/1/14, 16:15:16] Diana Myers: Theurgy form what a I understand is the process of
evocation thru ritual.
[7/1/14, 16:15:36] Victoria Stephens: Theurgy to me is cermonies tocall up the angels but
it is a dangerous practice in that you might not get an angel and why would we have to
since we are living in the "ncreated sea of pure Deity"
[7/1/14, 16:15:51] Steven Armstrong: Here is Wikipedia definition: Theurgy
(/!"i#$rd%i/; from Greek "&'()*!+) describes the practice of rituals, sometimes seen
as magical in nature, performed with the intention of invoking the action or evoking the
presence of one or more gods, especially with the goal of uniting with the divine,
achieving henosis, and perfecting oneself.
[7/1/14, 16:16:15] Victoria Stephens: Yep
[7/1/14, 16:16:29] Anne Cuenod: Right.
[7/1/14, 16:16:55] Diana Myers: Nice definition
[7/1/14, 16:17:52] Steven Armstrong: it was particularly popular among Neo-Platonists,
and then in some forms of Esoteric Christianity.
[7/1/14, 16:18:18] Victoria Stephens: It still holds some popularity.
[7/1/14, 16:18:24] Sandra: instead of asking for assistance in perfecting oneself, wouldn
t a mystically inclined person try to accomplish this from within themselves?
[7/1/14, 16:18:28] Steven Armstrong: Prayer, Fasting and other Ascetical practices are
usually a part of this.
[7/1/14, 16:18:50] Cecile Cuenod: Catholics still use this today in that they use Mary and
saints as intermediaries.
[7/1/14, 16:19:04] Diana Myers: Some find it very exciting.
[7/1/14, 16:19:58] Steven Armstrong: It is not so much using intermediaries, but through
ritual, almost forcing those intermediaries to obey you, or manifest to you.
[7/1/14, 16:20:34] Victoria Stephens: I believe it is possible
[7/1/14, 16:20:36] Steven Armstrong: This is what Martins de Pasqually (MdeP) did and
taught.
[7/1/14, 16:21:16] Steven Armstrong: I wouldn't want to try to force an Archangel to do
anything. Watch Supernatural! LOL
[7/1/14, 16:21:34] Anne Cuenod: (Calling the Eiffel Tower a kind of Tower of Babel was
also interesting.)
[7/1/14, 16:21:37] Cecile Cuenod: Which is why LCdeSM moved away from Pasqually's
way of thinking.
[7/1/14, 16:21:43] Diana Myers: To evoke an entity then by use of their will control it,
use for Personal gain. But think much of the time the entity lets one think yhey are in
control, but by then ithe practitioner is in over their head
[7/1/14, 16:22:10] Victoria Stephens: Love Supernatural and reallhy wouldn't "try" to call
one up.
[7/1/14, 16:22:46] Diana Myers: Lol
[7/1/14, 16:22:50] Steven Armstrong: In actual Christian Neoplatonism (e.g. Dionysius
the Areopagite), the choirs of angels (and presumably the Saints too) are all too willing to
help illumine us. That's their job. No theurgy needed.
[7/1/14, 16:23:05] Victoria Stephens: Yes
[7/1/14, 16:23:18] Anne Cuenod: Sooo glad Martinism and Rosiicrucianism does not
meddle with such practices.
[7/1/14, 16:23:29] Steven Armstrong: This is exactly why LCdeSM went in another
direction. He made this realization.
[7/1/14, 16:23:30] RAFAEL CADENAS: Living in polarity makes theurgy tricky
[7/1/14, 16:23:44] RAFAEL CADENAS: It seems only logical
[7/1/14, 16:24:15] RAFAEL CADENAS: Get it together first, then play around...
[7/1/14, 16:24:15] Steven Armstrong: We know that MdeP had good intentions, but you
don't have to go to those lengths. LCdeSM said, "just go within."
[7/1/14, 16:24:18] Diana Myers: So true Fr. Steven. It's the labor of love to assist others
up the golden chain
[7/1/14, 16:24:59] Victoria Stephens: Theurgy can feel like you are going within.
[7/1/14, 16:25:01] Anne Cuenod: Going within is a more arduous but sure path.
[7/1/14, 16:25:17] RAFAEL CADENAS: yes
[7/1/14, 16:25:25] Steven Armstrong: no doubt, one might succeed with Theurgy, but the
interior way is clearer
[7/1/14, 16:25:32] Victoria Stephens: Much
[7/1/14, 16:25:49] Steven Armstrong: So after MdeP, who did LC learn from?
[7/1/14, 16:26:16] Victoria Stephens: Jacob Boehme.
[7/1/14, 16:26:45] Steven Armstrong: He admired him so much, he learned German to
translate his works into French.
[7/1/14, 16:26:55] Anne Cuenod: Yes. He has such a good, solid energy to his works and
thoughts.
[7/1/14, 16:27:02] Cecile Cuenod: That is admiration!
[7/1/14, 16:27:16] RAFAEL CADENAS: Maybe discernment
[7/1/14, 16:27:20] Diana Myers: Plus I like the idea of relying on ourself, learn the
ability to connect directly with the deity rather than have a medium of some sort.
[7/1/14, 16:28:00] Victoria Stephens: Me too Diana
[7/1/14, 16:28:13] Steven Armstrong: And yet, LC is not the founder of the Martinist
Order. He passed on his Initiation (Two Letters and a Few Points) to a few disciples.
[7/1/14, 16:28:13] Anne Cuenod: Yes, Diana.
[7/1/14, 16:28:34] Victoria Stephens: To Papas and Chaboseau
[7/1/14, 16:29:14] Anne Cuenod: Just as Jesus did not found Christianity.
[7/1/14, 16:29:19] Steven Armstrong: ultimately, but it came down through two different
routes, as the article described.
[7/1/14, 16:29:46] RAFAEL CADENAS: They were dispersed for so long...
[7/1/14, 16:30:30] Steven Armstrong: It took until 1888 for the 2 medical students to
meet and discover that they were both initiates!
[7/1/14, 16:30:52] Steven Armstrong: The Spirit was working quietly.
[7/1/14, 16:30:56] Diana Myers: Interesting.
[7/1/14, 16:30:58] RAFAEL CADENAS: yes
[7/1/14, 16:31:06] RAFAEL CADENAS: Destiny?
[7/1/14, 16:31:38] Victoria Stephens: The Martinist Order and the Hermetic School then
the Supreme Council. Holding on the Western mystical traditions as the Eastern
traditions came into play with Blavatsky.
[7/1/14, 16:31:42] Anne Cuenod: Encausse and Chaboseau.
[7/1/14, 16:31:56] Steven Armstrong: From this point, the Martinist Order began, and
was gradually organized.
[7/1/14, 16:32:41] Diana Myers: I didn't get a chance to finish the article. Did it describe
how they discovered they were both initiates? It was probably just a recognition which
can happen...
[7/1/14, 16:32:46] Steven Armstrong: In what way was Martinism (and Rosicrucianism
too), a reaction to the Theosophical Society of Blavatsky and Olcott?
[7/1/14, 16:33:09] Hernando Ferro: Greetings
[7/1/14, 16:33:25] Victoria Stephens: Wanted to keep the western traditions in the
forefront.
[7/1/14, 16:33:41] Steven Armstrong: Welcome Frater
[7/1/14, 16:33:56] Diana Myers: Hi!
[7/1/14, 16:34:01] Anne Cuenod: Martinism did not like the way the Theosophical
Society underplayed Western esoterisism.
[7/1/14, 16:34:13] Hernando Ferro: TY Frater Steven
[7/1/14, 16:34:14] Steven Armstrong: As we recall, "Theosophy" has a much older
meaning, it is the Divine Wisdom Tradition.
[7/1/14, 16:34:24] Victoria Stephens: Sophia
[7/1/14, 16:35:01] RAFAEL CADENAS: Western is exclusively the Americas?
[7/1/14, 16:35:12] Anne Cuenod: Thank you Fr Steven for reminding us of the difference
between the two. And in the article they are talking of the Blavatsky Theosophical
Society.
[7/1/14, 16:35:33] Victoria Stephens: no Rafael. Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc.
[7/1/14, 16:35:38] Steven Armstrong: No, Western meaning from Persia to Ireland (and
by extension, the Americas).
[7/1/14, 16:35:41] Anne Cuenod: Rafael, yes, I would imagine.
[7/1/14, 16:35:59] Diana Myers: I heard that before, but forget. That is interesting since
HPB focused on the eastern tradition
[7/1/14, 16:36:08] Hernando Ferro: Nice answer Fr. Steven
[7/1/14, 16:36:10] Steven Armstrong: Eastern meaning Hindu and Buddhist, etc.
[7/1/14, 16:36:50] Diana Myers: *about Theosophy meaning Sophia
[7/1/14, 16:37:18] Victoria Stephens: Divine wisdom diana
[7/1/14, 16:37:46] Steven Armstrong: And also--horror of horrors for the Parisian Papus--
they wanted to move the Esoteric Center in Europe away from Paris! Sacrebleu!
[7/1/14, 16:37:54] Anne Cuenod: It seems that we will be learning more aboutSophia
later in the Digest.
[7/1/14, 16:38:22] Victoria Stephens: LOL
[7/1/14, 16:38:32] Diana Myers: LOL!
[7/1/14, 16:38:36] Sandra: he might have been correct in that idea
[7/1/14, 16:39:12] Steven Armstrong: What kind of courses did the Order begin to
provide?
[7/1/14, 16:39:34] Victoria Stephens: Kabbalah
[7/1/14, 16:39:55] Victoria Stephens: Symbolism
[7/1/14, 16:39:58] Cecile Cuenod: Symbolism, Alchemy, kabbalah, science heremetic
[7/1/14, 16:40:14] Victoria Stephens: Alchemy
[7/1/14, 16:40:17] Cecile Cuenod: tarot
[7/1/14, 16:40:37] Steven Armstrong: All of these, I think. Kabbalah was a favorite
[7/1/14, 16:41:04] Cecile Cuenod: You could even get a doctorate in Kabbalah!
[7/1/14, 16:41:34] Anne Cuenod: We were saying that it must have been great to have
such serious studies available.
[7/1/14, 16:42:12] Victoria Stephens: I believe they are available.
[7/1/14, 16:42:17] Steven Armstrong: and with the Kabbalistic Order of the Rose Croix,
Josephin Pladan got involved, and from that came the Rose-Croix Salons!
[7/1/14, 16:42:58] Anne Cuenod: That's interesting.
[7/1/14, 16:43:53] Anne Cuenod: We are trying to get a group together to have esoteric
discussions here, but few are really interested.
[7/1/14, 16:44:07] Sandra: How about a group meditation to one of the Salons?
[7/1/14, 16:44:11] Steven Armstrong: and there were connections with many other
orders. Here, Victoria, is where you mentioned the problem of "initiatory promiscuity"
[7/1/14, 16:44:35] Steven Armstrong: Sandra, that would be great. Let's organize that
during the last 5.
[7/1/14, 16:44:58] Diana Myers: Fr. Steven. The Order of Rose Croix was short lived
wasn't it ?
[7/1/14, 16:45:09] Victoria Stephens: My brother attended the Tuesday night
Metaphysical study group in Ohio while in college. You need a hook. :)
[7/1/14, 16:45:19] Diana Myers: Ooooo, that sound like it would be interesting Sr.
Sandra
[7/1/14, 16:46:23] Victoria Stephens: Yes, the FUDOSI who pulled all the initiatory
orders together in an effort to unite. Then many began thinking about their titles instead
of viable initiations.
[7/1/14, 16:46:33] Steven Armstrong: From the 1890s to the first decade or so of the 20th
Century was a heady time for esotericist, esp. in and around Paris. What was it like?
[7/1/14, 16:48:02] Victoria Stephens: The beginning of the WWI.
[7/1/14, 16:48:31] Diana Myers: Not sure,,,
[7/1/14, 16:48:32] RAFAEL CADENAS: Persecusion, confusion
[7/1/14, 16:48:34] Steven Armstrong: true, but during this time, Esotericism was very
common in Paris. So many opportunities to study.
[7/1/14, 16:48:52] Steven Armstrong: No persecution in the 1890s. Let's not get to 1914
yet.
[7/1/14, 16:48:56] Sandra: I think of gatherings and discussions, interesting company
[7/1/14, 16:48:57] Anne Cuenod: Under Papus' leadership, Martinism grew all over. They
had over 40 groups.
[7/1/14, 16:49:01] RAFAEL CADENAS: WW I and WWII
[7/1/14, 16:49:17] RAFAEL CADENAS: sorry
[7/1/14, 16:49:23] Steven Armstrong: Rafael, slow down your time machine. we are in
the 1890s
[7/1/14, 16:49:32] RAFAEL CADENAS: Missed a century
[7/1/14, 16:49:34] Sandra: music and the arts,
[7/1/14, 16:49:42] Steven Armstrong: Art Deco
[7/1/14, 16:49:45] Sandra: yes
[7/1/14, 16:49:53] Steven Armstrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_de_la_Rose_%2B_Croix
[7/1/14, 16:50:22] Diana Myers: Lol!!! (makeup (mm (facepalm)
[7/1/14, 16:50:33] Diana Myers: Oops
[7/1/14, 16:50:39] Diana Myers: Sorrt
[7/1/14, 16:51:02] Diana Myers: *SORRY! Lol
[7/1/14, 16:51:58] Steven Armstrong: make sure that your security settings allow you to
receive messages from those not in your address book in Skype.
[7/1/14, 16:52:26] Steven Armstrong: sorry, trying to help someone get in the chat
[7/1/14, 16:52:45] Victoria Stephens: That article looks very interesting Steven. I'll have
to read it later.
[7/1/14, 16:53:08] Victoria Stephens: art and music
[7/1/14, 16:53:46] Steven Armstrong: Why don't we plan a spiritual field trip to the 1896
Salon. Sandra....
[7/1/14, 16:54:06] Diana Myers: Some of my favorite composers are from that time
period
[7/1/14, 16:54:24] Sandra: That sounds like a good time to focus on.
[7/1/14, 16:54:31] Steven Armstrong: If you can, listen to some of the Rosicrucian works
by Eric Satie before your meditation.
[7/1/14, 16:55:04] Diana Myers: Ok! (nod)
[7/1/14, 16:55:13] Sandra: is there a list of Rosicrucian composers?
[7/1/14, 16:55:30] Diana Myers: The best!!!
[7/1/14, 16:55:37] Steven Armstrong: not that I know of
[7/1/14, 16:55:48] RAFAEL CADENAS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-
Xm7s9eGxU
[7/1/14, 16:55:53] Steven Armstrong: a good project
[7/1/14, 16:56:02] Sandra: for sure
[7/1/14, 16:57:04] Victoria Stephens: Thanks Rafael...of course Satie would be on you
tube.
[7/1/14, 16:57:11] Steven Armstrong: Sandra, can you explain how this works for new
participants?
[7/1/14, 16:57:52] Steven Armstrong: or anyone
[7/1/14, 16:58:00] Sandra: I research the location we are going to visit and then meditate
on the place and time and attempt to project myself there
[7/1/14, 16:58:07] Diana Myers: Satie and Debussy collaborated on some beautiful
pieces.
[7/1/14, 16:58:42] Anne Cuenod: Thank you Sandra.
[7/1/14, 16:58:45] Sandra: its good to make notes of your experience if you want to
share them
[7/1/14, 16:59:06] Anne Cuenod: Its always good to make notes of one's experiences...
yes?
[7/1/14, 16:59:14] Victoria Stephens: Yes
[7/1/14, 16:59:36] Diana Myers: Ok, thank you Sr. Sandra.
[7/1/14, 16:59:39] Steven Armstrong: For next week, how about we pick up this article at
1914, and also do "Take Back My Will" by LCdeSM?
[7/1/14, 16:59:57] Victoria Stephens: Sounds good.
[7/1/14, 17:00:07] Victoria Stephens: Where are the New Yorkers?
[7/1/14, 17:00:17] Anne Cuenod: Ok.
[7/1/14, 17:00:41] Steven Armstrong: I'll post the transcript and the announcement for
next time from my apartment tonight after work.
[7/1/14, 17:00:53] Diana Myers: Ok! Nice prayer. (clap)
[7/1/14, 17:01:18] Sandra: Thanks everyone!
[7/1/14, 17:01:23] Diana Myers: Thank you Steven
[7/1/14, 17:01:33] Anne Cuenod: Thank you all for a good Chat, once again. Peace
Profound.
[7/1/14, 17:01:43] Steven Armstrong: Thank you all! Send good Energy to Canada on
their National Day!
[7/1/14, 17:01:50] Cecile Cuenod: Peace Profound to you all.
[7/1/14, 17:02:08] Steven Armstrong: Thanks, and Peace Profound!
[7/1/14, 17:02:14] Diana Myers: Thank you all.
[7/1/14, 17:02:20] Diana Myers: Peace
[7/1/14, 17:02:24] Victoria Stephens: Always good energy to Canada. Peace, Faith, and
Love.