Ansbacher Report Appendix Volume 15

RECORD NUMBER: 1 9 9 9 /163 C O S
THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990
AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)
R E P O R T OF T H E I N S P E C T O R S
A P P O I N T E D TO E N Q U I R E INTO T H E
A F F A I R S OF A N S B A C H E R (CAYMAN)
LIMITED
Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002
V O L U M E [15]: A P P E N D I X X V ( 1 6 8 ) TO X V ( 1 7 1 )
APPENDICES XVI & XVII

ISBN 0-7557-1355-9
© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (168) Mr James McCarthy
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
James McCarthy.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr James McCarthy dated 22 February 2000.
b) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 19 April 1977 - JD Traynor to Pat

O'Dwyer.
c) Letter of 31 December 1986 - GMCT to JD Traynor.
d) Letter of 31 December 1986 - JA Furze to JD Traynor.
e) Letter of 13 February 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Ascot Holdings

Limited.
f) Letter of 10 January 1990 - JD Traynor to Vincent Ferguson.
g) Letter of 28 May 1990 - JD Traynor to James McCarthy.

Appendix XV (168) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JAMES MCCARTHY
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 22ND FEBRUARY 2000
I hereby certify the
following to be a true and
accurate transcript of my
shorthand notes in the
above named interview.
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. JAMES MCCARTHY
Represented by: MR. SIMON MCALEESE
MATHESON ORMSBY PRENTICE
30 HERBERT STREET
DUBLIN 2
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. J. MCCARTHY MS. MACKEY
MR. ROWAN
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 22ND FEBRUARY 2 000
4 MR. McALEESE: I suppose I should
5 introduce myself first.
6 My name is Simon McAleese, I am Mr. McCarthy's
7 solicitor, with Matheson Ormsby Prentice.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you. We will start
9 our interview then,
10 Mr. McCarthy. My name is Declan Costello and on my
11 right is Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan.
12 We, as you know, are the Inspectors that have been
13 appointed by the High Court. This is not a court
14 nor is it a tribunal, it is an investigation and an
15 interview in the course of our investigation. If
16 you want to take legal advice from Mc. McAleese on
17 any question that we ask, please tell me and we will
18 stop, we will pause, and if Mr. McAleese wants to
19 give you any advice in the course of our
20 questioning, we will pause and he can give the
21 advice. We will now ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins,
22 to administer the oath to you.
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
4
1 MR. JAMES MCCARTHY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS
4 MR. MCCARTHY: I have a little statement
5 here which refers to my
6 memorandum. It is a matter of adjusting a few
7 dates.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.
9 MR. MCCARTHY: It is paragraph 15 on page
10 5. It just says, "The
11 second Medford loan was given around about the same
12 time as the first loan." Therefore, the words
13 "February 1986" in the first line of paragraph 15 of
14 my statement should read "March 1984".
15 MS. MACKEY: 1984?
16 MR. MCCARTHY: Yes. Otherwise, my
17 statement is true and
18 correct, to the best of my recollection. Then just
19 a further statement that my solicitors have received
20 a letter from Ansbacher (Cayman) refusing to provide
21 documentation relevant to my past loans.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, very well.
23 Mr. McCarthy, I am going
24 to ask Ms. Mackey to ask you some questions first.
25
26 MR. MCCARTHY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY
27
28 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. McCarthy, you have
29 given us a very detailed
5
1 statement here, which has been very helpful, and I
2 just want to ask you a certain number of questions
3 in relation to it, and in relation to the documents
4 that you have provided with it. Insofar as I want
5 to refer to any document, we will pass you a copy of
6 it and to your solicitor so that you can look at it.
7 A. Yes.
8 2 Q. Just for the record, would you tell us a little bit
9 about your own career and your present position?
10 You were, I think, a Director of Dockrell; is that
11 correct?
12 A. Yes. I was originally from Cork, as you might
13 gather, and my business J.S. McCarthy, Cork, was
14 bought by the Fitzwilton Group in about 1972. It
15 was bought, actually, by a subsidiary of Fitzwilton
16 named Dockrells. Then I went into Dockrells as
17 Managing Director. I was also on the Fitzwilton
18 main board for a number of years. Then about 1977
19 Fitzwilton sold off a lot of their management
20 companies and became, really, an investment vehicle
21 and I, with the partnership of William Mawlinson and
22 Denny Mott, a large English timber company, bought
23 out the Dockrell Group.
24 3 Q. You did?
25 A. I did, yes, with William Mawlinson and Denny Mott,
26 and two or three -- three, actually, of the top
27 Managers in the Group. So, that left me as the
28 Chief Executive/Managing Director of Dockrells, and
29 I was also on the board of Fitzwilton and some other
6
1 companies, Independent newspapers, and companies
2 connected with Fitzwilton.
3 4 Q. I see.
4 A. Then, Dockrells, in the mid 80's, with the slump in
5 the building industry, were themselves in a pretty
6 serious financial state. In fact, you could say in
7 a very serious financial state. A decision was
8 taken then that they should sell off all the pieces
9 of the Builders Providers Company, which they did,
10 mostly to the Managers. The original shareholders,
11 who were myself and my brother, William Mawlinson
12 and Denny Mott, to all intents and purposes lost all
13 of the money they originally invested. That would,
14 sir, be the high and low of my career. Since then,
15 I retired five years ago, and I have been on a
16 number of boards and things like that.
17 5 Q. After the collapse of Dockrells, what did you do
18 then?
19 A. After the Dockrells thing, I went in, actually, and
20 worked for Fitzwilton.
21 6 Q. You worked for Fitzwilton?
22 A. Yes, Fitzwilton then were expanding and I was put
23 not quite in charge, but to look after certain
24 interests they had in the UK and in Ireland, and
25 also I was involved as an Executive Director of
26 Arcon.
27 7 Q. Arcon?
28 A. Arcon, which in fact was the son or daughter of
29 Atlantic Resources.
7
1 8 Q. Of?
2 A. Of Atlantic Resources.
3 9 Q. Oh, Atlantic Resources.
4 A. Atlantic Resources was merged, or taken over you
5 could say. It was a share swop done with what was
6 then called Conroy Petroleum. But, the Atlantic
7 Resources main shareholders, in fact, became the
8 biggest shareholders in Conroy, and they changed
9 their name to Arcon.
10 10 Q. What year did you become Executive Director of
11 Arcon, roughly?
12 A. I would have to make a guess at that, but I would
13 say it would have been 1997.
14 11 Q. 1997?
15 A. Yes .
16 12 Q. That is fine. Thank you very much, Mr. McCarthy.
17 Now, just to get down to your statement, you have
18 explained to us in your statement that your dealings
19 with the company, which we call "Ansbacher", were in
20 relation to loans that you obtained for the purchase
21 of shares in Atlantic Resources; is that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 13 Q. Do you have a copy of your statement with you?
24 A. I have it here, yes.
25 14 Q. If I could refer to page 4 of the statement and the
26 part beginning at paragraph 11, where you relate to
27 us that you were on the board of Atlantic Resources
28 at that time?
29 A. Yes .
1 15 Q. Now, at paragraph 12 you say:
2 "I required finance for this investment

a
4 That was the purchase of shares.
5 "Such finance was arranged by Des

Traynor, then a prominent and respected
6 business man, etc."
8 Had you known Des Traynor for a long time at that
9 period?
10 A. I had known Des Traynor -- that all happened in
11 1984, so I would have known Des Traynor since about
12 1972.
13 16 Q. How did you first get to know Mr. Traynor?
14 A. Well, I got to know Mr. Traynor and Guinness &
15 Mahon, generally, because in 1972/73 we had an
16 opportunity of investing in Tara Mines.
17 17 Q. We being ...?(INTERJECTION).
18 A. Sorry, excuse me. Myself and Tony O'Reilly and
19 Guinness & Mahon.
20 18 Q. And Guinness & Mahon?
21 A. And Guinness & Mahon.
22 19 Q. An opportunity of investing in Tara Mines?
23 A. And, in fact, Fitzwilton, as well, had an investment
24 in it. There was an opportunity given to us by Pat
25 Hughes, who was then Chief Executive of Tara Mines,
26 to invest in the company, and we borrowed about
27 $7 million. But, at that time interest on borrowing
28 was allowed against your tax.
29 20 Q. That was from Guinness & Mahon, was it?

1 A. Guinness & Mahon set up all the finance for that.
2 In fact, we borrowed the money from them. They also
3 took, I think, some of the equity.
4 21 Q. Just to be clear about this. Did you know Des
5 Traynor first when you approached Guinness & Mahon
6 or did you approach Guinness & Mahon and meet
7 Mr. Traynor that way?
8 A. That is the way we did it, yes, we approached
9 Guinness & Mahon.
10 22 Q. Can I ask you why you approached Guinness & Mahon?
11 A. Well, Guinness & Mahon, as I was going to explain
12 later on, Guinness & Mahon, you see, were probably
13 one of the few merchant banks in Dublin. They were
14 -- the major banks -- this was actually share
15 purchasing in a mine up in Navan. The major banks
16 are quite slow to loan you money for share
17 purchasing. Tara was slightly -- I mean, we were
18 buying into an ongoing situation there. I cannot
19 remember which one of our group knew Des Traynor,
20 but I know that I met him through that thing, which
21 turned out to be a very successful investment for
22 me. But, quite honestly, we didn't have the finance
23 to stay there once interest wasn't allowed against
24 your tax anymore, we just had to sell out and we
25 were lucky to get the right buyer.
26 23 Q. It was in that context you met Mr. Traynor?
27 A. Yes .
28 24 Q. Did you then develop a business, professional or
29 social relationship ...(INTERJECTION).

1 A. No, I didn't meet Des Traynor then -- I was never
2 sort of closely associated with Des Traynor on the
3 business side of it. We then did that sort of
4 business and it worked out well for us. Then, some
5 years after that, property became available up in
6 Bride Street for sale. It was there for quite a
7 while with no offers. So, we heard -- at least we
8 imagined at the time ...(INTERJECTION).
9 25 Q. Sorry, "we" again being the same group as before?
10 A. No, no. In fact, this was Des Traynor on a personal
11 basis, Sam Stevenson the architect, Tony O'Reilly
12 and myself.
13 26 Q. Now, can I just stop you there for the moment
14 because I would like to take this slowly and get it
15 clear what happened?
16 A. Yes, I hope I am not confusing you.
17 27 Q. Not at all. It is just to get it stage by stage so
18 that we are absolutely clear.
19 A. Yes.
20 28 Q. You met Mr. Traynor initially when you embarked on
21 this venture in Tara Mines?
22 A. In Tara, yes.
23 29 Q. You didn't, you said to me, develop a close business
24 relationship with him at that time?
25 A. Not really, no.
26 30 Q. But, nevertheless, some years later you were
27 involved, as you say, at a personal level?
28 A. Right.
29 31 Q. Had there been some contact in-between?
11
1 A. Not really, no. The next one would have been this
2 little property deal.
3 32 Q. How did he become involved in that with you?
4 A. Again, we were looking for money. It would be a
5 pretty natural thing that if you had done a
6 successful deal with a merchant bank, that they are
7 pretty happy to accommodate you again. At the time
8 a lot of deals looked a good idea. So, we went to
9 Des Traynor ...(INTERJECTION).
10 33 Q. That is to say you, Tony O'Reilly and Sam Stevenson
11 went to Des Traynor?
12 A. Yes, and he put in about £200,000 at the time.
13 There was a rent coming in on the property. Part of
14 the property had been let off as garages or things
15 like that and there was a rent coming in off that.
16 But, at the end of the day, it just turned out to be
17 a loss situation. We hung onto the property for, I
18 would say, five or six years and then we just had to
19 sell it.
20 34 Q. The four of you had purchased that property, and
21 that was Mr. Traynor in a personal capacity?
22 A. Well, can I just say this to you about the Guinness
23 & Mahon people?
24 35 Q. Yes.
25 A. You were never, it might sound stupid to say, but
26 you are never too sure -- the only thing you knew
27 was you were getting the money from Guinness &
28 Mahon. Guinness & Mahon, to the best of our
29 knowledge, took equity in a situation if they felt
12
1 it was a good one. Now, from what I gather, Des
2 Traynor was a personal investor, but it would be
3 wrong of me to say that as a definite thing. Maybe
4 Des was representing either the bank or other
5 people. But, as far as we were concerned, he always
6 had 25%, and of course they gave us the money as
7 well.
8 36 Q. That was the next occasion in which you were
9 involved with Mr. Traynor.
10 A. That was the next occasion, yes.
11 37 Q. Then, after that?
12 A. The next occasion then I had with him was, in fact,
13 this Atlantic Resources. I have to say this much;
14 if there was another occasion, I don't remember it.
15 38 Q. In-between this venture in Bride Street and the
16 Atlantic Resources, did you keep in contact with
17 Mr. Traynor?
18 A. No.
19 39 Q. You did not?
20 A. No. I would see him the odd time at some meeting or
21 something like that. There was a mutual interest
22 between Fitzwilton, I think, and the New Ireland
23 Insurance Company and I think Des Traynor was either
24 the chairman or something like that. It was always
25 on very friendly terms, I must say.
26 40 Q. Did you meet him socially during that time?
27 A. No, I never met him socially, except at those kind
28 of things, you know.
29 41 Q. Yes, I understand. At the time, in 1983/84, when

1 you wished to arrange the finance for the Atlantic
2 Resources shares, you went to Mr. Traynor. Is that
3 what happened?
4 A. I should say that Atlantic Resources was, you could
5 say, an exploration share. It was different than
6 Tara Mines. It was an exploration share. I think
7 we would have gone, a group of us -- Mr. Ferguson,
8 Mr. Collins and myself, we were on the board of
9 Atlantic Resources and shareholders. There had
10 been a successful oil strike off the south coast of
11 Cork and things looked terrific at the time and it
12 was a matter of how large was the field, etc, etc.
13 So, there was a placing. You see, in that type of
14 business, I should explain, if you wanted to
15 participate in a drilling programme you would have
16 to have a placing in order to get the money to do
17 it. So, we'll say Atlantic Resources, which was our
18 company, they would have to probably get their share
19 of whatever it was -- I cannot remember at the time,
20 maybe it was 10% or 15%. It wasn't even as big as
21 that. Gulf Oil were the operators and they would
22 say they were going to drill what they call
23 step-ups. So, we had a strike there in the centre
24 of that. Then, to delineate the size of the field,
25 they would drill the well out there. Then, if there
26 was nothing they would come in a bit. So that for
27 each drilling programme you had to put up your money
28 or else you were diluted. Invariably, then, after
29 the strike, we looked for more money, we wanted to
14
1 participate ourselves. Unfortunately, where I was
2 concerned, there would be no question -- two
3 reasons. First of all, the major banks would not
4 give you a loan for what was then really a
5 speculative share. The second reason for me,
6 personally, I personally wouldn't have got any money
7 from them because I was in Dockrells, which was a
8 doomed business in the 1980's, like everything
9 connected with the building industry. So, I would
10 have had no ready cash to put into it at that time,
11 in the substantial amount they wanted. Then, I went
12 to -- I am sorry, I am going on and bit now.
13 42 Q. Not at all.
14 A. So, I/myself went to Guinness & Mahon. At that
15 time, you would want to understand, oil exploration
16 business was like a gold rush.
17 43 Q. Yes, I f
18 know.
19 A. Everyone was getting in and getting out, would make
20 a fortune and losing money. All that was a real
21 gambling thing. This is all with hindsight, of
22 course. So, we went to Des Traynor then because we
23 had done business with him and he was always
24 friendly, and he spoke to us and we went in and
25 ...(INTERJECTION).
26 44 Q. Sorry, just to focus it a little bit, did you go to
27 Mr. Traynor with the intention of getting finance
28 from Guinness & Mahon, as on the previous occasion?
29 A. Yes.
15
1 45 Q. Guinness & Mahon itself?
2 A. Yes, definitely.
3 46 Q. It was Mr. Traynor in Guinness & Mahon who you
4 approached directly; is that right?
5 A. Yes .
6 47 Q. What did he propose to you?
7 A. Well, we didn't even meet him, we actually called
8 him up and we said, "Look, we want to participate in
9 this placing, Des," and this, that and the other
10 thing. There had been, as I said, a strike.
11 48 Q. Yes .
12 A. He was very interested and said, "Well, look, I will
13 have to think about it, I will have to discuss it
14 and I will come back to you," which he did after
15 about a day or a day and half and said words to the
16 effect of, "Okay, we will go ahead. We probably
17 have other clients," which might have been
18 themselves for all I know, "who would be interested
19 in participating in a placing." Then he said he
20 would give -- I think my own amount was £330,000.
21 49 Q. He said to you "we". Did you understand that to
22 mean Guinness & Mahon?
23 A. No, I am sorry. By "we" I meant the three of us.
24 50 Q. No, but he said to you "We will give you finance";
25 is that right? Sorry, maybe I ...(INTERJECTION).
26 A. No, you are not. In fact, I suppose, yes, that is
27 probably the actual words. He said words to that
28 effect, "We will ..." I don't now remember whether
29 he said the bank or -- I cannot remember the words,

1 but the fact is he said "We will give you the
2 finance and I will set up the vehicle which we will
3 do it through." So, we were in. He said, "I will
4 handle everything, including the buying of the
5 shares," which he went ahead and did. He said, "I
6 have used Guinness & Mahon Cayman as a vehicle."
7 51 Q. Now, did he tell you that after he had done it or
8 before?
9 A. I must say he told us that probably at around the
10 same time, he just probably said it. But, I must
11 say it was not like, "If you come into this vehicle
12 we will give you the money." He was going to give
13 us the money, but it really wasn't an important
14 feature of how he set it up.
15 52 Q. What I need to get clear here is -- just looking at
16 your statement here at paragraph 12, you say:
17 "Mr. Traynor stated that he could

arrange finance for us through the
18 company then known as Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Limited."
19
20 A. Yes .
21 53 Q. My understanding of that sentence would be that it
22 was the company that was going to finance you. Is
23 that what you mean to say there?
24 A. You mean the bank?
25 54 Q. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
26 A. Oh, yes, yes.
27 55 Q. So, you were borrowing from Guinness Mahon Cayman
28 Trust?
29 A. Yes .
1 56 Q. Now, did you understand that to be the case at the
2 time or did you think you were borrowing from
3 Guinness & Mahon?
4 A. Well, I must say Guinness & Mahon was just Guinness
5 & Mahon to me. I was not really -- to be quite
6 honest with you, at the time I really did not give a
7 damn once I got the money. It is an offhand way of
8 saying it, I know, that I didn't give a damn once I
9 got the money, but getting the money was what I was
10 most interested in to put into this marvellous new
11 vehicle we were going to make a profit out of.
12 Sorry, you asked me another question there.
13 57 Q. No, that was my question: Did you know at that time
14 that you were not borrowing from Guinness & Mahon
15 but that you were borrowing from their off-shore
16 subsidiary?
17 A. No, and, in fact, it is interesting, all of the
18 cheques that I gave Des Traynor, up to the three
19 famous cheques that turned up in ...(INTERJECTION).
20 58 Q. Kentford. They were actually made out to Guinness
21 Mahon. But, I would be wrong now to deny that I did
22 not become aware that it was done through this
23 convoluted way that he did it in the end?
24 59 Q. Okay, well, maybe I cut across you there and you
25 were going to explain to me how he set it up for you
26 then. He said to you that it would be financed
27 through Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust?
28 A. That is right.
29 60 Q. You were happy with that?
18
1 A. Very happy with that, yes.
2 61 Q. What did he do then? How did he set it up?
3 A. Well, he bought the shares.
4 62 Q. He, personally?
5 A. Well, sorry, I keep on saying "he". Well, the
6 vehicle, I presume, bought the shares.
7 63 Q. I think, according to your statement here,
8 Mr. McCarthy, he organised that a company, which was
9 a Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust nominee company called
10 Medford, would buy the shares; is that correct?
11 A. That's right, yes, but this was not a thing that was
12 kind of preplanned, I am going to do this, that and
13 the other. He just said "I will look after
14 everything and buy the shares." I am sorry for
15 saying "I", he meant the bank. In my view, he was
16 talking about the bank. I really was not aware, I
17 am not a financial person. So, I was not really
18 that much aware of the difference between Guinness &
19 Mahon and Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust.
20 64 Q. Did he explain to you at any stage why the loan was
21 coming from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust rather than
22 Guinness & Mahon itself, from which you had got
23 finance in the past?
24 A. Well, if he did, Ms. Mackey, I cannot remember it.
25 I must say that maybe he did, but if he did I cannot
26 remember. I don't want to say he didn't.
27 65 Q. Okay. Now, did he tell you anything about this
28 company Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust at the time?
29 Did he tell you what it was or where it was based?
19
1 A. Well, can I say this; in my view, at that time, I
2 was dealing with Guinness & Mahon/Des Traynor, an
3 honourable man and a most honourable bank, with
4 Jonathan Guinness the chairman. So, anything
5 Guinness & Mahon did, I would have taken as, well,
6 that is fine, that is okay, there is no problem
7 there. So, Des who probably must have told us,
8 especially when we started getting our requests for
9 interest, he certainly must have told us then that
10 it was Medford.
11 66 Q. Medford, anyway, was going to do the buying and the
12 selling of the shares. Did Mr. Traynor make it
13 clear to you or did you ask Mr. Traynor to have the
14 buying and selling of the shares organised in
15 something other than your name?
16 A. No.
17 67 Q. How did that come about then? What was the purpose
18 of Medford?
19 A. Well, from what I can gather with hindsight, the
20 purpose seemingly was that at all times Guinness &
21 Mahon -- now, don't mind me using Des Traynor,
22 because I have to say that Des Traynor, that he
23 would have control of the buying and the selling of
24 the shares.
25 68 Q. What was the reason for that?
26 A. I can only say that that is probably the way that
27 these merchant banks, who took equity stakes
28 themselves, worked, that they just wouldn't hand you
29 out a major loan and allow you to have freedom of
20
1 when you are going to sell them. Supposing that the
2 shares had gone up considerably in value, I think
3 that maybe they wanted to have the power to sell
4 them if they thought they should. I am a hopeless
5 seller of things, so all I am saying maybe that is
6 the reason they wanted to do it. But, they wanted
7 to have command, obviously, and in a way you
8 wouldn't blame them for wanting to do that, of the
9 shares.
10 69 Q. In what way were you beneficial owner of these
11 shares? What power had you or ...(INTERJECTION).
12 A. Well, it is interesting. They say there in one of
13 the letters, which you probably read, that I was the
14 beneficial owner.
15 70 Q. Well, you say this yourself, Mr. McCarthy, in your
16 statement?
17 A. That is right, yes, but I have been advised since
18 that in fact I was not the beneficial owner. They
19 could say that I am the beneficial owner here, but
20 in fact, through some legal thing or another, that I
21 had no control over the shares. That is what I am
22 told, anyway, by legal people and by financial
23 people. I would not know whether that is true or
24 not. I mean, my name is obviously on the line.
25 71 Q. It appears from your statement and from documents
26 that you attached to it that the shares were not
27 registered in the name of Medford?
28 A. That's right.
29 72 Q. But were registered in the name of some other
21
1 entity?
2 A. That's right, yes.
3 7 3 Q. What do you know about that?
4 A. I know nothing about that whatsoever.
5 74 Q. Did you know that at the time?
6 A. Do you know, I must say, I just didn't care, you
7 know. I didn't sort of think about things like
8 that. I was dealing with Guinness & Mahon and with
9 Des Traynor -- sorry, I know I am repeating myself
10 -- people that I knew and trusted and I just thought
11 anything they did was the right way to do it.
12 Certain information is coming to me now, but I say
13 that with hindsight that, Des, in fact, you might
14 say that was a silly thing to do, wasn't it? When
15 you have done successful deals with banks and things
16 like that, you really think that they are doing the
17 right thing.
18 75 Q. Okay. If we could move on a little bit from that
19 and if I could ask you, in relation to the cheques
20 that you gave to Mr. Traynor from time to time in
21 order to make the loan repayments, you state in your
22 statement here that from to time these
24 A. What page are you on, please?
25 76 Q. It is page 8, actually, the top of page 8, paragraph
26 20.
27 A. Yes.
28 77 Q. Referring to the three payments that went into
29 Kentford.
22
1 A. Yes .
2 78 Q. They were made payable to cash?
3 A. They were made payable to cash.
4 79 Q. I think you said that from time to time cheques were
5 made payable to cash?
6 A. No, sorry, Ms. Mackey, it was only the last three
7 cheques.
8 80 Q. The last three cheques?
9 A. Yes .
10 81 Q. Why were they made payable to cash?
11 A. I think the reason they were made payable to cash is
12 that Des Traynor was in Guinness & Mahon up to about
13 1986 to 1987, and Des Traynor then was out of the
14 bank and was chairman of a couple of companies,
15 including CRH and Aer Rianta, or something like
16 that, and he had an office literally down the street
17 from where I had an office. One of my partners was
18 living in Cork, the other was living in Sligo, and I
19 think Des probably found me -- I am going around it
20 in a roundabout way now -- probably found me the
21 easiest guy to deal with, being up the street. What
22 was it you are asking me now again?
23 82 Q. I asked you why the cheques were made out to cash?
24 A. Why the cheques were made out to cash. He left the
25 bank then, say, about 1986 or 1987.
26 83 Q. Yes, that is right.
27 A. I used to go over to Des with the cheques. The
28 reason I used to go over to Des with the cheques
29 rather than sending them over was because I always
23
1 had a sob story. I was nearly always short, you
2 will read in the correspondence there. I was
3 inclined to give him cheques for Irish and he would
4 say, no, he wanted Sterling. You might sort of say
5 it is an thing to do, but the fact is that I gave
6 him a cheque and I was always short -- not always,
7 but nearly always short. So, I had a sob story to
8 tell him about this, that and other problems I had.
9 84 Q. So why were they made out to cash?
10 A. I think that I must have said to Des, that I
11 probably brought the cheque over with me, I am
12 assuming, and Des was always talking about going to
13 the Caymans on Friday or Friday week or Friday after
14 that, and "I must have them." Now, I can only
15 assume that I had made all my other cheques out to
16 Guinness & Mahon and I didn't know who to make those
17 cheques out to or what to do, because I knew Des was
18 no longer in Guinness & Mahon and he was running his
19 Ansbacher business from CRH offices. So, I must
20 have said to Des, "Who will I make the cheques out
21 to?" He must have said, "Look, I am not sure. What
22 we will do is I am going out today, so you better
23 make it out to cash."
24 85 Q. So, it would have been Mr. Traynor who asked you to
25 make it out to cash?
26 A. It would have been, yes. Also, could I just say,
27 that when you are sort of in financial difficulties,
28 you know -- I am being a bit facetious by saying you
29 would make it out to Satan, just to kind of, you
24
1 know. Things like that just weren't important at
2 the time.
3 86 Q. I can understand that. Can you remember a little
4 bit more about him asking you to make the cheques
5 out to cash? Did he give you any reason? Because,
6 in fact, you were paying them to the same entity.
7 Whether Des Traynor was in Guinness & Mahon at that
8 time or not, your loan was with the same company
9 that it always had been?
10 A. Yes, and I did get acknowledgments of them and it
11 certainly showed credit. I don't know whether he
12 gave me an explanation or not. If he did, it was
13 very plausible because I never thought about it for
14 a second.
15 87 Q. Okay, grand. Now, from time to time, you told us in
16 your statement, Mr. Traynor sent you sort of
17 statements of what you owed or balances and so on?
18 A. Yes .
19 88 Q. In what form did these come?
20 A. That is what I would get from him and then you might
21 have noticed here and there I would get the odd
22 little note, you know.
23 89 Q. There would be simply a note that you owed now so
24 much interest?
25 A. That is right. A typical note would be, page 4,
26 say, "there is an enclosed cheque for £67,000 being
27 the Irish pound valuation of £60,000." We would
28 converse like that. Occasionally, he might ring me
29 up just looking for what he said to me. He used to
25
1 obviously get these letters from John Furze and he
2 used to send them on to me.
3 90 Q. Well, would you ever get a statement from the Cayman
4 bank setting out your loan account?
5 A. I never.
6 91 Q. You never got ...(INTERJECTION).
7 A. I never met John Furze or never had any direct
8 correspondence from him. There is one letter in
9 there from him ...(INTERJECTION).
10 92 Q. Yes, I see that. Did it not surprise you that you
11 wouldn't get what you would normally get from the
12 bank when you have a loan account, a statement
13 setting out what your balance was ...(INTERJECTION).
14 A. No. I have got to say it should have surprised me,
15 but it didn't, really, at the time. Because, the
16 whole way that Guinness & Mahon, they had quite an
17 informal way of doing business, not like your usual
18 monthly statement you get from an ordinary bank.
19 93 Q. Yes, I understand. Moving on then, Mr. McCarthy,
20 you mention in your statement, at paragraph 9 --
21 that is page 4 of your statement?
22 A. Yes .
23 94 Q. Have you got that there?
24 A. Yes .
25 95 Q. In relation to Channel Island Trust & Company, that
26 you never availed of any of the services described:
27 "I have never had dealings with

Guinness & Mahon Jersey Limited,
28 Guinness & Mahon, Channel Islands
Limited or College Trustees."
29
1 Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 96 Q. Now, can I show you a document (SAME HANDED TO
4 MR. MCCARTHY) (Exhibit 1).
5 A. Thank you very much.
6 97 Q. This is an internal memorandum of Guinness & Mahon,
7 from Mr. Traynor to POD, who we understand to be Pat
8 O'Dwyer of the Loans Department in Guinness & Mahon,
9 and he is saying:
10 "Could you please arrange to send a

cheque for £3,500, with the following
11 letter from yourself, to Mr. P.L.O.
Kinder, Deputy Manager, Ulster Bank
12 Limited, College Green, Dublin 2. The
amount should be debited to GMCI ... "
13
14 Which stands for Guinness Mahon Channel Islands.
15 "... E5 account."
16
17 Then he appends the letter that is to go with that
18 and the letter says:
19 "Dear Sir,
At the request of Mr. J.S. McCarthy we
20 have pleasure in attaching hereto a
draft payable to him for £3,500, and
21 would be grateful if you would lodge it
to his account and advise him of the
22 position. Yours, etc, J.D.T."
23
24 Which is Mr. Traynor. Now, that is 19th April 1977.
25 Would you like a couple of minutes to discuss this?
26 A. I don't really need a few minutes because, quite
27 honestly, I absolutely haven't a clue what it means.
28 98 Q. You haven't ...(INTERJECTION).
29 A. I just wouldn't because, first of all, I am just
27
1 surprised I never got a cheque from -- I do not know
2 whether it would have been ...(INTERJECTION).
3 99 Q. Have you any recollection of this cheque being
4 lodged to your account with the Ulster Bank?
5 A. I haven't the slightest.
6 100 Q. You haven't?
7 A. No.
8 101 Q. Now, does the reference to Guinness Mahon Channel
9 Islands ...(INTERJECTION).
10 A. Can I keep that?
11 102 Q. Yes, you may. Does the reference to Guinness Mahon
12 Channel Islands E5 account mean anything to you?
13 A. No, nothing at all.
14 103 Q. It doesn't?
15 A. No. Unless I have had an extraordinary lapse of
16 memory, I never remember having anything to do with
17 that, what did you call it Guinness & Mahon -- no,
18 first of all, I know I have nothing to do with
19 College Trustees. Or, if I did -- you see, I don't
20 want to be saying I didn't, but my signature isn't
21 down anywhere, is it?
22 104 Q. No, your signature is not on it, but on the face of
23 this, what it appears to mean is that £3,500 was
24 withdrawn from the account of Guinness Mahon Channel
25 Islands E5, which is a coded account, and a draft in
26 the amount paid into your account in Ulster Bank.
27 So that for some reason money came into your account
28 in Ulster Bank from the Guinness Mahon Channel
29 Islands account. You cannot remember what that was
28
1 about?
2 A. No, I haven't the slightest memory of it at all, but
3 I would have to say that I would only assume that
4 maybe Mr. O'Dwyer or somebody made a mistake.
5 105 Q. Now, can I ask you about a different matter,
6 Mr. McCarthy, about a company called Beryl
7 Investments? You are familiar with Beryl
8 Investments ?
9 A. That is the little property company I told you
10 about.
11 106 Q. That is the property company in which you were a
12 shareholder?
13 A. That's right.
14 107 Q. Did that company, insofar as you can remember,
15 receive finance in the early 70's from Guinness &
16 Mahon?
17 A. Well, Guinness & Mahon put up the money for us to
18 buy it.
19 108 Q. For you to buy?
20 A. To buy the property, Beryl. That is the same one I
21 told you about ...(INTERJECTION).
22 109 Q. For the Bride Street property?
23 A. Yes .
24 110 Q. Oh, is it that one?
25 A. Well, Beryl was a kind of a name we just called it.
26 111 Q. What security was given for that finance?
27 A. The security would have been the property itself,
28 plus a rental income for those garages and things I
29 told you were rented from the property. That again
29
1 was run by Guinness & Mahon.
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McCarthy, we thought
3 we might take a coffee
4 break now, for about ten minutes or so.
5 A. Okay.
7 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Did you want to say
10 something, Mr. McCarthy?
11 A. I just wondered was there any way that that letter
12 would have anything to do with that Beryl thing?
13 That is the only other sort of loose-end I can think
14 of.
15 112 Q. MS. MACKEY: What might it have had to
16 do with Beryl?
17 A. Having said that, I just do not know. You see, the
18 interest from the Beryl rent of the garage and
19 things went towards the rent of the money. In other
20 words, it went towards the interest payments. The
21 rent, I should have said, went towards paying the
22 interest on the original loan.
23 113 Q. Right.
24 A. So, I am wondering would it have anything to do with
25 that. Having said that then, I just couldn't tell
26 you, I just have to say that I just do not know.
27 MS. MACKEY: Very good. Thank you.
28
29 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. MCCARTHY BY MS. MACKEY
30
1
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11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
31
1 MR. MCCARTHY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN
3 114 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. McCarthy, you have
4 explained to us that,
5 together with others, you invested in some property
6 transactions and you also invested at a different
7 time in some shares of Atlantic Resources?
8 A. Yes, right.
9 115 Q. The others on each occasion, there were some names
10 in common, but there were some who were not
11 necessarily involved in both transaction. I
12 wondered whether, since certainly the Atlantic
13 Resources investment was fairly substantial money in
14 those days ...(INTERJECTION).
16 116 Q. Whether you acted entirely on your own initiative or
17 whether, for instance, you sought some guidance from
18 advisors on the Atlantic Resources transaction?
19 A. The only people I dealt with, needless to say, were
20 the two people I dealt with. We didn't actually ask
21 for outside advice. Because, if I could say, about
22 the Atlantic Resources thing, everything that
23 happened in Atlantic Resources -- and I am not being
24 facetious when I say this -- you would read in the
25 paper every day. In a way, it was simple, you were
26 involved in a drilling programme and like every
27 redneck on the rig you knew what was happening; you
28 drill through certain sands -- I remembered all the
29 terminology then and I forget it now -- then you get
32
1 to the final 50 feet or 100 feet and literally then
2 that is where your geologist and people like that
3 say they think there would be commercial quantities
4 of oil. The first strike, they never got anything
5 out after that.
6 117 Q. The risk was that there would be nothing there or
7 that there would be black gold found?
8 A. Well, that is right. But, as I said to you earlier
9 on, an awful lot depended as well on step-ups to
10 delineate the size of the field.
11 118 Q. If I understand you correct, you invested a very
12 substantial sum of money and you continued to invest
13 over a period?
14 A. Yes.
15 119 Q. Entirely in the hope that there would be oil found
16 and of course then there would be a substantial
17 growth in the value of your investment. That was
18 the nub of it?
19 A. Yes. I know looking back it sounds very stupid, but
20 that was it.
21 120 Q. I am just slightly incredulous of the idea that you
22 might have done this merely by reading the paper?
23 A. No, it really wasn't that way. I am only making
24 that as sort of an explanation, that sort of
25 everyone in Ireland knew what was going on in
26 Atlantic Resources. All I can say is that if you
27 make a find -- in the Atlantic Resources situation
28 the operator was the Gulf Oil Company and they
29 really are the main information givers. They look
33
1 at it and they say, 'Well, I think we will do this,
2 that and the other thing,' and "This looks very
3 promising.' Before they scampered off they were
4 highly enthusiastic themselves about what was going
5 to happen. Then, as you probably know, the tax
6 regime was put in, which was as high as any oil
7 producing country in the world, and all these people
8 literally just disappeared. Gulf Oil dropped
9 everything and said, 'We are not drilling anymore.'.
10 121 Q. So the tax regime was likely to make an investment
11 of that sort either less attractive or unattractive?
12 A. Yes, to the operators/major companies, and Gulf were
13 a major company. It would make it very unattractive
14 if the tax regime was wrong. They considered it was
15 very wrong for a country that had never actually
16 produced a pint of oil to put in a tax regime saying
17 in case we do produce a pint of oil, our tax regime
18 is going to be worse than the North Sea. That is
19 literally what they said. Having said all that,
20 where the Gulf Oil Company were enthusiastic and
21 everything else -- we were all enthusiastic because
22 we would automatically say, well, look, if they say
23 it is good to keep drilling -- now I wouldn't do it,
24 I need hardly tell you, with hindsight -- you would
25 automatically sort of say we have got to be there,
26 these are the best people in the world. So that
27 would be the reason. The money was an enormous
28 thing, looking back on it.
29 122 Q. Making the sort of investment that you did,
34
1 subsequently we saw that that led to considerable
2 financial embarrassment for you?
3 A. Absolutely.
4 123 Q. Did that possibility of financial embarrassment
5 strike you at the time you were making the
6 investment?
7 A. It might sound a stupid thing to say, but of course
8 you had an idea in the back of your mind, but when
9 you get the fever, if I could use that word, for
10 some reason or other you just don't even think of
11 it. You are so convinced that it is going to be
12 right that you just keep on digging yourself into a
13 bigger hole. Also, you know, you are in a situation
14 where you literally cannot pay your debts to
15 Guinness & Mahon and you are inclined to sort of do
16 anything to keep it going, stupid though it may
17 sound. I might add that at the same time I was
18 losing substantial money in Lloyds and, as I say, I
19 was losing substantial money in Dockrells. So, I am
20 sure you wouldn't invest in me.
21 124 Q. Troubled times?
22 A. Extremely troubled times, ten years of appalling
23 disaster for me, personally.
24 125 Q. If I understand you correctly, you say that you did
25 these things without consulting an investment broker
26 or accountant or a solicitor, or any professional
27 person who might have, shall we say, reeled you in a
28 little?
29 A. Well, in fact, it is interesting when I say this --
35
1 obviously, I am sure as an accountant you would have
2 been able to understand the Medford and then the
3 Ascot thing which was started to sort of save the
4 different -- the Medford in my case and the other
5 two companies, or the other two companies, I suppose
6 that were set up for the other two people.
7 Obviously, Guinness & Mahon also had the fever or
8 else they would have said, 'Look, enough is enough.'
9 That was truly the way it was. Now you say 'How in
10 the name of God did I do it?' but you did. Maybe
11 at the back of your mind you said, 'This is going to
12 work out and it is going to help me with all my
13 other sort of problems.' .
14 126 Q. Guinness & Mahon came out of it all right at the
15 end, didn't they?
16 A. Guinness & Mahon got their money back, but they must
17 have ...(INTERJECTION).
18 127 Q. But at the beginning they didn't know they were
19 going to be able to get their money back?
20 A. Well, I presume like they are in the risk business,
21 the merchant bank.
22 128 Q. Yes, but it was, or am I correct, it was unsecured
23 lending at the beginning?
24 A. They had my personal guarantee and of course they
25 had the shares then. That is what they had. Maybe
26 they must have thought my personal guarantee, at the
27 end of the day, it would be down to selling the
28 house and that kind of stuff.
29 129 Q. But, as time passed, between the time that you
36
1 acquired the loan first and by the time (inaudible)
2 -- forgive me if I am not using the correct term
3 repaid the balance of the loan in 1997, somewhere in
4 the middle of all of that the O'Reilly family gave a
5 security?
6 A. In 1990, I think.
7 130 Q. You have said that your security really would not
8 have been sufficient to have repaid the loan had the
9 security been called; is that right?
10 A. Yes. I presume if I had sort of sold, as I say, my
11 house and everything else, I suppose it would have
12 been.
13 131 Q. Everything on the line?
14 A. Everything was on the line.
15 132 Q. Then, around that time, in 1991 or thereabouts,
16 Mr. O'Reilly came in with a security?
17 A. With a guarantee, yes, and in fact, as I have shown
18 there, took over the paying of my interest on the
19 loan.
20 133 Q. So that at that point, of course, an unsecured loan
21 became a secured -- well, not a secured loan, it
22 became a loan subject to a guarantee, where it was
23 very likely that the individual giving the guarantee
24 had the resources to meet it if necessary?
25 A. That's right, yes. They were actually in a good
26 position then.
27 134 Q. How did they manage to achieve that position?
28 A. Once they got the O'Reilly guarantee for £750,000,
29 they had it then, really.

1 135 Q. Yes, the question I suppose is a narrower question:
2 What prompted Mr. O'Reilly to give the guarantee at
3 that stage?
4 A. What prompted him was, literally, that I, myself,
5 was in deep financial trouble and they wouldn't
6 accept my guarantee anymore. So, I then had to go
7 to my friend and say this is the position. I mean,
8 I have got to say that if I had said, "Will you give
9 me the £750,000," he would have given me the
10 £750,000. Strange though it may seem, but it would
11 have happened. So, like Guinness & Mahon, once they
12 got him on board were in good shape, but it did not
13 change their view on me personally.
14 136 Q. Atlantic Resources turned out to be a great
15 disappointment to you?
16 A. Well, it did, because what was happening then, we
17 had the Gulf War coming on, if you remember, the
18 price of oil was going down, dramatically going
19 down, and the interest rates on your loan were going
20 up. It was the original Catch-22 situation.
21 137 Q. But had it been otherwise it might have been a very
22 interesting investment?
23 A. Indeed, it would, and that is what we were hoping it
24 would be. It was actually a total disaster. It is
25 as simple as that.
26 138 Q. As you quite rightly say, I suppose it was Guinness
27 & Mahon's role to lend money, not necessarily to
28 decide for themselves whether the investment was a
29 good one, because they were allowing you to make the
38
1 judgment on the risk. So they lent you money on
2 your judgment?
3 A. Yes, I suppose you could put it that way, they did.
4 They had experience of me and Tony O'Reilly in the
5 Tara thing, where they obviously made a lot of money
6 on their investment and on their actual banking of
7 the loan. So, they probably thought that if we were
8 doing it, you know, that it was good.
9 139 Q. I think you said to us that Mr. Traynor decided how
10 the whole loan situation would be structured?
12 140 Q. And he decided the sort of vehicle that would be
13 used and so on?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 141 Q. Do you believe that structure was put in place with
16 some end objective in mind?
17 A. Well, the only thing I can think of now, again with
18 hindsight, was that it gave him, or them full
19 control over the shares. I am assuming that is why
20 it was done that way.
21 142 Q. Of course, at the time all of that was created
22 everyone had a view that there was going to be a
23 very profitable investment there?
25 143 Q. Might that have influenced the structure?
26 A. I am assuming that it probably did.
27 144 Q. In what way?
28 A. Well, I think maybe they were protecting themselves
29 against people like myself who were non-sellers,
39
1 which was the reason. Maybe they said, 'There will
2 be a time when we want to sell these shares and
3 maybe these guys will come along with a story and
4 say, look, no, it is going to be better, this is
5 going to be a 100 million barrel field, it is going
6 to be a 200 million barrel field.' So, I can only
7 assume that they wanted to have power so they could
8 say, 'Enough is enough. We are bankers. We have
9 had a good run on this and we are selling down the
10 shares.' That is the only thing I can think of. As
11 a matter of fact, I think that must be the reason.
12 145 Q. Would I be right in believing that it was probably
13 not necessary to set up all of these nominee and
14 intermediary arrangements between you as the
15 theoretical beneficial owner and the actual company,
16 Atlantic Resources, that that could have been done
17 within Ireland and it was not strictly necessary to
18 do it via the off-shore vehicle. Because, all they
19 were doing was distancing the beneficial owner from
20 the share register, if you like, so it wasn't then
21 evident who actually owned the shares?
22 A. Well, yes, I would say it probably -- again with
23 hindsight, it was sort of to say, 'Well, there it
24 is, there is the money.' Maybe they had a situation
25 there where the Dublin bank might have said, 'Look,
26 we can only allow so much,' and we wanted more
27 money. Maybe that was one of the reasons that he
28 said, 'I will do it this way.' But, I think the
29 main reason was to give him power over buying and
40
1 selling. That is the view I have now, having been
2 advised by my accountant.
3 146 Q. Causing a sale to be made if someone judged that the
4 shares had reached a particular price in the market
5 and it was a judicious time to sell them?
6 A. You see, those shares at that time, Mr. Rowan, there
7 was a fluctuation of the shares were kind of
8 enormous. It used go from sort of a pound down to
9 50p, back up to a pound. Huge jumps. Those kind of
10 shares are not like the normal climb and the normal
11 decline of, say, a banking share. That is what it
12 is. An exploration share is so different than any
13 other share, because you actually haven't got
14 anything. You are investing your money, really, you
15 could say, on a chance that you will get something,
16 that the reports are good and the reasons are good
17 and the sands are right and the (inaudible) and all
18 those big long words which I knew then but I don't
19 know now, that they were all right.
20 147 Q. Had the shares been realised at a profit, of course,
21 there was then an advantage to having an off-shore
22 company?
23 A. If you are referring to tax or that sort of thing,
24 of course there would be, but could I just say this
25 much to you; the least worry I had in the whole
26 world then was tax, because I had so many tax losses
27 carried forward, from Lloyds, from Dockrells, from
28 that little company there and from another company
29 called IEC -- incidentally, I misled you a little
41
1 bit there, Ms. Mackey. There was another little
2 company there called IEC.
3 MS. MACKEY: What is that?
4 A. That Des Traynor was in. I forgot to say that to
5 you. I had so many tax losses carried forward that
6 it certainly wouldn't have mattered to me whether it
7 was off-shore or on-shore.
8 148 Q. MR. ROWAN: You will forgive me if I
9 find it a little difficult
10 to understand why you would have gone into a
11 speculative investment with the idea other than you
12 were going to make a profit out of it?
13 A. That's right.
14 149 Q. Equally, of course, losses that you had, there may
15 well have been restrictions on the use of them
16 against future gains. The issue, really, is that
17 you went into Atlantic because you believed it was
18 going to be a successful investment?
19 A. Yes.
20 150 Q. Had it been a successful investment, it was useful
21 that it would have been handled through Cayman
22 Trust.
23 A. I have got to say that for me -- I know I am
24 repeating myself again -- it really would not have
25 mattered. When you say it would have been useful,
26 what do you mean?
27 151 Q. What I mean is that it would have been a gain which
28 would have been enjoyed by a company off-shore and
29 that might have presented tax opportunities?
42
1 A. Yes. Well, certainly, it would not have mattered to
2 me one way or the other because anything capital,
3 even right up to this very day -- I mean, I have tax
4 losses carried forward of pretty substantial sums.
5 It wouldn't have really mattered to me one way or
6 the other. I had already totally lost my first
7 investment into Dockrells, which was a couple of
8 hundred thousand pounds, and more after that. I had
9 lost substantial money in Lloyds, which happened
10 when Lloyds went into losses, which you are probably
11 aware, around the early 80 's. So, the question of
12 tax really didn't even enter my mind.
13 MR. ROWAN: Thank you very much.
14
15 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. MCCARTHY BY MR. ROWAN
16
17 MR. MCCARTHY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
19
20 152 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I have a few questions to
21 ask you, Mr. McCarthy.
22 The first is about the documents you have given us?
23 A. Yes.
24 153 Q. They seem to be incomplete, Mr. McCarthy. Have you
25 any others?
26 A. I have no other documents. These documents, may I
27 say to you, Judge Costello, were -- I have changed
28 my office four times. As I say, I am retired from
29 business now, but up to that time I had changed my
43
1 office four times, including totally losing every
2 document I had in the Dockrell fire in Georges
3 Street. Then I went out to Ballymun
5 154 Q. If I can stop you, Mr. McCarthy. Are they the only
6 documents you have?
7 A. These ones that I have given you?
8 155 Q. Yes .
9 A. They are the only documents.
10 156 Q. You have no others?
11 A. None at all.
12 157 Q. Did you ever have an accountant advising you at any
13 time in relation to these matters?
14 A. Oh, yes, Noel Corcoran.
15 158 Q. Mr. Corcoran?
16 A. I think it is there in the ...(INTERJECTION).
17 159 Q. Have you ascertained from Mr. Corcoran whether he
18 has any documents relevant to the purchase of these
19 shares and the establishment of these companies
20 off-shore?
21 A. I know he hasn't. These documents are what he got
22 from me and from Moriarty.
23 160 Q. The documents that you have given us, these were at
24 your home, were they?
25 A. No, some of them were in my file that I had inside
26 in my old office, where I still left a few filing
27 cabinets, and the rest of them were got from a
28 basement, which I thought had been destroyed, but I
29 had to re-employ my secretary for two weeks to go

1 down and go through all of those, and that is what
2 we came up with.
3 161 Q. So, there are other documents down there?
4 A. There are not any more documents down there, because
5 it has been searched from top to bottom, but I am
6 sure there were more documents.
7 162 Q. Sorry, you said you sent your secretary down there?
8 A. And myself.
9 163 Q. And yourself?
10 A. Yes.
11 164 Q. Where there a lot of documents down there?
12 A. There were all kinds of documents down there. Those
13 documents were in boxes that I had on "bank" and
14 this and that, you know, these ordinary sort of
15 files.
16 165 Q. You took out from the documents in the basement the
17 ones you thought were relevant?
18 A. No, everything to do with that I took out.
19 166 Q. Everything to do with what?
20 A. Everything to do with Atlantic Resources
22 167 Q. Where they in a box called "Atlantic Resources"?
23 A. No, no.
24 168 Q. How were they ...(INTERJECTION).
25 A. They were jumbled up with a whole lot of other
26 documents. You must remember, Judge Costello, I was
27 extremely lucky to have them.
28 169 Q. Other documents which had nothing to do with your
29 dealings with Ansbacher; is that it?
45
1 A. Sorry, you mean with Guinness & Mahon?
2 170 Q. All right, Guinness & Mahon. Were they jumbled up
3 with other documents that had nothing to do with
4 Guinness & Mahon?
5 A. They were jumbled up with other documents from other
6 banks.
7 171 Q. Very well. Now, I want to ask you this about your
8 statement. You say in paragraph 2 of your statement
9 that:
10 "These dealings arose from loans made

by the company to me for the purpose of
11 investments by me in certain shares."
12
13 Is that correct?
14 A. What page are you on?
15 172 Q. Page 1, paragraph 2, the third sentence.
16 A. Yes.
17 173 Q.
"These dealings arose from loans made
18 by the company to me for the purpose of
investments by me in certain shares."
19
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 174 Q. The loans were, in fact, made to you, were they?
23 A. I am assuming they were made to me.
24 175 Q. The vehicle that was used was this off-shore company
25 established by Ansbacher in Cayman?
26 A. Yes. Medford, as far as I was concerned, Medford.
27 176 Q. You regarded yourself as the owner of the shares
28 which were purchased with the money which was
29 loaned?
46
1 A. Yes, that is right.
2 177 Q. In whose name were the shares registered?
3 A. Well, now, certainly not in mine. I was always
4 under the impression they were registered in a
5 company called Medford. Seemingly, they were not
6 registered in that company either.
7 178 Q. We know from the documents that some of the shares
8 in Ascot were registered in the name of Overseas
9 Nominees?
10 A. Yes.
11 179 Q. Were these shares registered in ...(INTERJECTION).
12 A. I don't know, Judge.
13 180 Q. Did you not check to see in whose name the shares
14 were registered in the share register?
15 A. You mean lately?
16 181 Q. No, no, at the time.
17 A. No, I did not.
18 182 Q. You assumed they were your shares?
19 A. Yes, I just assumed it.
20 183 Q. The original loan was so that you could own shares
21 in Atlantic Resources; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 184 Q. Then this was supplemented by a second loan to buy
24 further shares?
26 185 Q. Then these were amalgamated on 5th April 1986, the
27 two loans?
28 A. Yes, that is correct.
29 186 Q. Medford then had borrowed these monies in order to
47
1 assist you, enable you to have all the shares which
2 were in the name of either Medford or some other
3 company. Is that the position?
4 A. Yes .
5 187 Q. You regarded yourself as beneficial owner of these
6 shares ?
7 A. I did.
8 188 Q. I want you to turn your mind now to Ascot Holdings?
9 A. Yes .
10 189 Q. You have not found any document which evidences the
11 contract with Ascot Holdings, is that correct,
12 nothing at all?
13 A. I don't think there was a document that I was given.
14 Anyway, the answer to your question is, no, I have
15 not.
16 190 Q. Do you know when the loan was made in relation to
17 Ascot Holdings?
18 A. I think the date is here somewhere.
19 191 Q. We have a letter of 31st December 1986, from
20 Guinness Mahon Cayman to Mr. Traynor, which talks
21 about the purchase of shares, but it doesn't -- this
22 is the first letter that you have given us about the
23 loan to Ascot (Exhibit 11)?
24 A. Yes .
25 192 Q. Do you know when the loan took place? It was
26 obviously before December 1986.
27 A. 31st December 1986, and it shows they were purchased
29 193 Q. No, no, don't bother about that, I am asking you,

1 Mr. McCarthy, do you remember when the loan was
2 made?
3 A. I can only assume it must have been around that
4 date.
5 194 Q. I see. Well, now, this Ascot Holdings seemed to
6 have owned shares in Fitzwilton?
7 A. Yes .
8 195 Q. Were you a Director of Fitzwilton?
9 A. I was .
10 196 Q. Was it a public company, Fitzwilton?
11 A. It was.
12 197 Q. Atlantic Resources, was it a public company?
13 A. Yes .
14 198 Q. Over the page there, the photostat is very bad, but
15 it states "presently hold 760,000 shares in
16 Fitzwilton"?
17 A. Yes .
18 199 Q. Do you know how Ascot Holdings Limited obtained
19 760,000 shares in Fitzwilton? It says, in brackets,
20 it acquired them from the Cayman Securities and
21 445,000 through Shaw & Company.
22 A. Yes .
23 200 Q. Was there money borrowed by you and using Ascot
24 Holdings Limited as a vehicle for the purchase of
25 Fitzwilton shares?
26 A. Yes. Ascot Holdings was set up, obviously, by
27 Traynor because the other loans he had were going
28 badly.
29 201 Q. No, I understand that. What I am trying to inquire

1 is whether or not, in accordance with the statement
2 you made at the very beginning, that you obtained
3 these loans for the purpose of investment, did you
4 obtain further loans and use Ascot Holdings with the
5 purpose to buy shares in Fitzwilton?
6 A. Yes.
7 202 Q. They were again in the name of this company Ascot,
8 but you regarded them as your own?
9 A. Yes, I assumed they were my shares, yes.
10 203 Q. This was another transaction that you undertook with
11 Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust -- they set up another
12 company, they lend money to that other company, the
13 other company bought shares and it seems as if they
14 had 760,000, which was in their name and registered
15 in the name of Overseas Investment, but you regarded
16 as your shares; is that it?
17 A. Yes, I assumed they were my shares. I owned a third
18 of everything they bought.
19 204 Q. You owned a third?
20 A. Yes, and Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Collins, they owned a
21 third each.
22 205 Q. If you just look at this, the loan position, the
23 second page of that letter that I referred to you,
24 it says the loan position was on 20th November 1986,
25 £476,950, and then there were various purchases
26 showing the balance due on the loan?
27 A. Yes.
28 206 Q. That was in 1986?
29 A. 1986, yes.
50
1 207 Q. Now I want you to turn to the letter of 13th
2 February 1990, which is just a little over three
3 years later (Exhibit 111)?
4 A. Yes.
5 208 Q. That is to Ascot Holdings from Ansbacher. Have you
6 got that?
7 A. Yes, I have it.
8 209 Q. Do you see that the facility there was for
9 £1 million?
10 A. Yes.
11 210 Q. That, in fact, was the debt which was then owed by
12 Ascot Holdings to Ansbacher; isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 211 Q. You look back at the letter of 10th January 1990, to
15 Mr. Furze, and a copy of which was sent to you, the
16 balance which will be due after the funds being
17 credited on 22nd January 1990 will be Sterling
18 £1,015,037?
19 A. Yes.
20 212 Q. Can you explain how the overdraft, because this
21 apparently was on an overdraft facility, had gone up
22 between the end of 1986 and the early part of 1990,
23 from £500,000 odd to £1 million odd?
24 A. Could you give me that first date again?
25 213 Q. You see, the letter that I was referring to, of 21st
26 December, showed that Ascot Holdings then owed a
27 little over £500,000 and it owed on 10th January
28 1990 a little over £1 million. Did it purchase
29 further shares in the intervening period (Exhibit
51
1 IV) ?
2 A. You see, Ascot -- right, they were owed 543, and
3 then they gave loans to the other -- if you see the
4 letter of 28th May 1990 — have you got that out,
5 Judge Costello (Exhibit VI?
6 214 Q. What is the date?
7 A. 28th May 1990.
8 215 Q. What page is it?
9 A. I am sorry, it is in these documents:
10 "Re: ASCOT
11 Dear Jim,
I am sure that the three of you have
12 clear figures in your records but just
in case!
13
March 1987, September 1987 and March
14 1988 had advances made ex Ascot to look
after other items for the three of you
15 as follow:
J.S. McC. Stg. £161,768.86
16 V.F. £134,121.85
17 C.J.C. £179,729.08
18
19 £475,619.79
2 0 = = = = = = = = = = = =
21
In arriving at the balance of Interest
22 due as at 31/5.1990 I have taken into
account the following payments made:
23
By J.S. McCarthy Stg. £14,675.07
24 By Vincent Ferguson Stg. £7, 449.78"
25
26
27 Now, those items were interest payments and capital
28 repayments. They show the three names and the bill
29 at the end for £475,619. If you add that to the
52
1 letter of 543 in 1986, that approximately makes the
2 million pounds.
3 216 Q. Will you go back to the letter of 13th February
4 1990?
5 A. Yes .
6 217 Q. The letter refers to the security and a memorandum
7 of deposit over investments, and the quoted
8 investments which are referred to are 535,000
9 Atlantic Resources pic shares, 475,000 Fitzwilton
10 pic shares?
11 A. Yes .
12 218 Q. Are these the shares which the company purchased on
13 your behalf, which you regarded yourself as the
14 owner of the shares but were in their name?
15 A. I regarded myself as the owner of a third of them.
16 219 Q. A third of them?
17 A. Yes .
18 220 Q. I see. But, the beneficial owner of these shares
19 was yourself and your two colleagues, Mr. Ferguson
20 and Mr. Collins. Is that the position?
21 A. That's right, yes.
22 221 Q. We know, Mr. McCarthy, that the Atlantic Resources
23 shares were sold, were they not, in order to pay off
24 the debt?
26 222 Q. What happened ...(INTERJECTION).
27 A. Well, not -- sorry to interrupt there.
28 223 Q. Yes .
29 A. Not to pay off the debt. So far as I could see,

1 they were sold to pay off some capital repayments
2 and interest repayments.
3 224 Q. Were they all sold or some of them sold?
4 A. They were not all sold.
5 225 Q. Again, in whose name are they registered now?
6 A. You mean the ones that were not sold?
7 226 Q. Yes .
8 A. I think that all of those were sold, except about a
9 hundred and something thousand, which would have
10 been my third of Ascot. Now, those shares were
11 never sold. They are in my name.
12 227 Q. Your name?
13 A. Yes. Because, when I went to Dr. O'Reilly and said
14 that, 'I want you to go security for me,' which he
15 did, and then when he took over my debt I said,
16 'Well, look, here is a third of the Ascot stuff,'
17 and he said, 'I don't want it, just keep it, we will
18 talk about them afterwards when you sort out your
19 other problems.'.
20 228 Q. Are they registered in your name?
21 A. What I did with them then is I put them into a
22 family trust, and that is where they are now, and
23 the Fitzwilton shares as well.
24 229 Q. That is what I wanted to ask about. The Fitzwilton
25 shares were not sold?
26 A. I am sure two-thirds of them were sold.
27 230 Q. Was this in order to pay ...(INTERJECTION).
28 A. I was only interested, Judge Costello, in one-third,
29 and that was the third I was allowed to keep when I

1 was out of Ascot, and Dr. O'Reilly said, 'Look, just
2 keep them, put them away somewhere and we will talk
3 about them afterwards when you sort out your other
4 problems.'.
5 231 Q. Well, now, Dr. O'Reilly's wife paid the money to
6 you, gave you a gift of the money, the £1 million?
7 A. Yes .
8 232 Q. What did you do with it?
9 A. I paid off the loan.
10 233 Q. The loan?
11 A. Yes .
12 234 Q. On which company?
13 A. Well, you see, what happened then was that my part
14 of the Ascot loan was put into Medford and it all
15 became Medford, as is shown on that document there.
16 That is then how it was paid off.
17 235 Q. What happened to the Fitzwilton shares which had
18 been in the name of the company?
19 A. My third of those are still there, they were never
20 sold.
21 236 Q. Where are they registered?
22 A. They are in a family trust. I got my Atlantic
23 shares and my Fitzwilton and put them into a family
24 trust.
25 237 Q. Are they registered in your name or are they
26 registered in the name of the trustees in the family
27 trust?
28 A. They are, yes.
29 238 Q. Which is it?

1 A. It is in the Bank of Ireland trustees.
2 239 Q. So, these are registered now in the name of the
3 bank?
4 A. Yes, that is right.
5 240 Q. Perhaps you might just tell us what actually
6 happened when you paid off the loan? They had been
7 registered in the name of Overseas Nominees. Did
8 you actually arrange a share transfer?
9 A. Sorry, I paid off the loans.
10 241 Q. You got £1 million from Dr. O'Reilly's wife?
11 A. Yes .
12 242 Q. With that you were able to pay the indebtedness.
13 The shares that still existed were in the name of
14 Overseas Nominees, but they ended up in the Bank of
15 Ireland trustee company. You must have effected a
16 share transfer, did you not?
17 A. I do not think you would have to, would you? Oh,
18 sorry, going into the trustee company?
19 243 Q. Yes .
20 A. To be quite honest with you, I don't know, but I am
21 sure ...(INTERJECTION).
22 244 Q. Who handled it for you?
23 A. Whatever was done, the Bank of Ireland -- Noel
24 Corcoran handled that.
25 245 Q. Mr. Corcoran?
26 A. Yes, I am almost certain he did. It was a number of
27 years ago.
28 246 Q. It was 1997, it was three years ago?
29 A. May I say that I suppose I should know, I don't

1 know. All I know is what happened and that made me
2 very happy and ...(INTERJECTION).
3 247 Q. And Mr. Corcoran was handling it?
4 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
5 248 Q. Very well then, thank you, Mr. McCarthy, that is
6 all. We will require you, Mr. McCarthy, to come in
7 in a couple of days' time to sign the transcript.
8 A. Very good, yes.
10 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
57
^ r V V
3 VWx^ a o O o
Appendix XV (168) (1) (b)
J
f J.D.T. to P.O'D. 19th April 1977.
Could you please arrange to send & cheque1'for fi3>500.

with the*following letter Upon yourself to \
Mr. P.L.O. Kinder, Deputy Manager, Ulster Bank United,
College 'Green, Dublin 2. The amount should be
. Account.
Dear Sir,
At tlL request of Mr. J.8. McCarthy we have
pleasure in attaching hereto draft payable to him for
£3,500 and would be grateful if you would lodge it to
his account and advise him* of the position.
/
Youra etc.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (168) (1) (c)
L GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST UMTT5D
L TttaohorwNo (809-0*1 94463/4
A MWII ot if Gun**— Mahon MwehMii Sarang (3ms
».a 90S 817

Tain CP4309 O m Cayman
I Qwnrwn BrtWi W M indiaa
3lsc 1986
I your raf
ourratJAF:e«
L
L J. D. Traynor Esq.
3 Trinity Street
Dublin 2
IRELAND
\L Dear Des,
RE: Ascoc Holdings Led.
Che folloving transactions cook placa chi'rf nou>.ji:-
L PURCHASED
200,000 Atlantic Resources 49,816.00
L 40,000 Atlantic Resources Call Opcions 2,138.00
Li 51,954.00
SOLD
. i
50,000 FiCxwilcon 38,093.25
•J Amount paid an I K December 1985 £13,860.75
• i
V PURCHASE!?
J
175,000 Atlantic Resources £46,361.14
J
Abov* amount paid on 15th December 1986
J
./cont'd
J
Appendix XV (168) (1) (d)
•tdViMMl St*** '
I '
J. r<. :ravr. — '|r t.-nj»fr. 1P06
L
L Jje presently
flPyin-n
R c j e . T.-es ta
ho d 7r
lis.
ihares i n F i t « v i . ' - * n
s e c u r i t i e s a*J UkgtCD through Sh*w r

xjiiiti<• i l l y we ha-« a c a l l
and
ration
acou.'ciu through
Atlantic
4 0 , 0 0 0 A.R.
L s'raras.
Th« l o a n p c s ' - ' r - i* fr-Jlcwsi-
I
c« :osh Novamber 1964 475,"50.9a
Purchases - net - see abovr 13.B60.75
li Purchases - see above &6,361.1&

Interest so 3l»c December 19A6 3,737.
£5*.2,<}10.77
'J
The loan has been rtnevad for a farther «onth at 13 1/8% per ammn.
Tours sincerely,
u it
•J -
J
JOHN A. FURZE
J
J
J
i
J
s u /.ar
Aasbacher Limited
A Mtmbtr tfthm Htnry AmMm Hoiitop PLC Mtrdmu Want Gfeu
i
P.O.totM7. Qraod Cayman. Briddi W«m India
niOMC («0») 94*463)1*
Teto CP 4303
Fas (109) 949.7946
(8») W W W
FeteuarylS, 1990
JAFtal
Ascot Holdings Limits

P.O. Box 887
Grand Gagman, B.W.I.
Dear Sirs:
Wa write to confirm our willlngnww to extend the owodraftfarrtMtias made avail-
able to you, on the following tens and conditions:
1. Moiub o£ Jdmncs Stg. 1,000,000.00
2. VÎVM Date 1st Ftibtuuty 1990
3. Jtatarity Date 1st August 1990
4. Interest Bate 90 day LIBOR plus 2«p.a.
5. PreHP^noRt Penalty rat
6. OnmuitMBnL A m NIL
7. RsptQ/Mtts Interest only to be paid monthly .

at the aod off each worth ixMiericing
28th Fsbruary 1990
8. Principal TliiyîBwiilr. On CJT BEFORE 1st August 1990
9. Security & Menneandum of Deposit over

quoted inwestaents plus personal
guarantee (see below)
The quoted investments referred to in (9) above consist of:
535,000 Atlantic Resources pis Shares
475,000 Fitzwilten pic Shares
the personal guarantee is that of to cover an aaauwfc of up
to Stg. 750,000.00.
w
i
i
!
Page 2 of 2
I -
ixXVBfitjOSnitS XB^QSZVd tso COtiMIpocooodlzi^ page aM~tiagleteMd in fbaftaraaof
our wholly owned subsidiary, OVBBSBM EOGNEES L3METED, and are held by us in
K safe custody.
In acknmledgaseQt and acoeptanoa of the faraqoing taaai and txrejitiaris, and in
i* reongnlticn that in our capacity as diracbaea and officer* of ASOOT p m S N G S
[j LBQXBD we m y execute tfcsfcever decowntation ia required to paefeetf security
of the leader, ASSBaCBER LOtUED, m should be grataful if you would! kindly sign
and return tha aaxrpenylng copy cCtibialetter.
vtaoea faithfully*
U i
?
j
j
Appendix XV (168) (l)(f)
m768144/763085 42 FITZVyiLLIAM SQUARE..
'tartmiita812038
DUBLIN 2.
^ III11 I I.Y PERSONAL 10th January, 1990
Vincent ferguson, Esq.• »

Fit wilton pic,
1 Upper Hatch Street,
DUBLIN 2 .
Dear Vincent,
I have been advised by John Purse that on Friday he sold 76,750.
shares at Stg,1.25 and on Monday 69,763 at Stg.1.22. The .
total sale was therefore 146,513 shares (leaving a balance of
475,000 shares) producing a net amount of Stg.E179,534.90 for
settlement on 22nd January 1990.
The balance which will be due - after the funds have been
credited on 22nd January 1990 - will he Stg.£1,015,037-90.
Will you please arrange to let Joan have Stg.815,037.90 on the *
31st January 1990 <1 am due to be in Cayman on that- day) and
she will advise me. Cayman will then arrange to issue a new
facility letter to the end of July 1990 as agreed with you.
Please confirm you will handle with Joan.
Kindest regards,
( Yours sincerely,.
J.P. Travnor
c.e. J.S* McCarthy, Bag
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (168) (1) (g)
ft
TM.7PSMV? 83066 42 FITZWILLIAM SQUARE

F«B»lm(6«: t1?03K DUBLIN 2.
STRICTLY PERSONAL 28th May 1990.
J.S. McCarthy, Esq.,

Fitavilton pic,
1 Upper Batch Street,
igWI ; . . . __
Dear Jin,
I an aura the three of you have clear figures in your recorda
but just in caaa!
March 1987, September 1987 and March 1988 had advances sad* ex
Kscot to look after other items for *-,he three of you aa
follows:
3•S.KcC. Stg.£161,768.86
YKV £134,121.85
V*>c 812ii222*sa
£475,619.79
In arriving at tha balance of Intareat due as at 31/5/1990 t

have taken into account the following payments «ad««
By j.s. McCarthy St«.Bl4,*75.07 V
By X K jt. Btg. E7,449.78 ,'v \
Xours sincerely,
J.O. Travnor.
c.c.
•JDT/AJW
0l^v
Appendix XV (169) Ms Barbara Breen

1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Ms
Barbara Breen.
a) Transcript of evidence of Ms Barbara Breen dated 12 March 2001.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MS. BARBARA BREEN
UNDER OATH
ON MONDAY, 12TH MARCH 2 001
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: HIS HONOUR JUDGE 0'LEARY
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors MR. T. SLAVIN
Interviewee: MS. BARBARA BREEN
Represented by: MR. J. LEYDEN
& MS. A. CORRIGAN
ARTHUR COX
EARLSFORT CENTRE
EARLSFORT TERRACE
DUBLIN 2
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MS. B. BREEN MS. MACKEY 6 - 50
JUDGE 0'LEARY 51 - 68
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON MONDAY,
2 12TH MARCH 2001:
5 MS. MACKEY: Good morning, Ms. Breen.
6 MS. BREEN: Morning.
7 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much for
8 coming. I will
9 just introduce those of us who are here although
10 we have already said hello to you. This is
11 Judge Sean O'Leary and I am Noreen Mackey. This
12 is our colleague Tom Slavin, who will be taking a
13 note, and we have our stenographer here, who will
14 be taking a detailed transcript of the interview.
15
16 We are two of the four Inspectors appointed by the
17 High Court and we are the two who will be dealing
18 with any matters relating to you and the other two
19 Inspectors will not be taking any part in it.
20
21 This, as you know, is not a Tribunal and it is not
22 a Court. It is an interview and although it is
23 under oath it is otherwise quite informal.
24
25 If at any stage you want to ask your solicitor or
26 your legal advisors advice about anything just tell
27 us and we will stop.
28
29 Similarly, if either of you feel that you want to
4
1 advise Ms. Breen about anything ask us and we will
2 stop.
3 MS. BREEN: Thank you.
4 MS. MACKEY: If by 11 o'clock we have
5 not finished we will
6 probably take a ten minute break and you can have
7 a cup of tea or coffee, which we will provide for
8 you here, and we will come back again.
10 I will now administer the oath and we can get under
11 way.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MS. BARBARA BREEN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY:
5 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Ms. Breen, just for the
6 record I would like to
7 get a little bit of background; your own sort
8 of professional business background and so on.
9 Are you at the moment working or...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. Yes.
11 2 Q. Yes. Where do you work at present?
12 A. A pet food manufacturing company.
13 3 Q. Yes?
14 A. Merops (Nutrition) Limited.
15 4 Q. Merops (Nutrition). What is your position there?
16 A. Managing Director.
17 5 Q. Managing Director. Have you held that position
18 for long?
19 A. Six years but I have worked in the company since
20 it was founded.
21 6 Q. Right. What was your position prior to becoming
22 Managing Director?
23 A. Financial Director.
24 7 Q. Financial Director. Had you been on the Board for
25 some time prior to...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. Yes, I would have been on the Board since I think
27 the early 1980's.
28 8 Q. Early 1980's. Have you any other Directorships or
29 have you any connection with other companies?
6
1 A. Yes, there are two other companies; Windsor Foods
2 Limited and Windsor Nutrition Limited. One is an
3 English company and the other is an Irish company.
4 9 Q. Which is which?
5 A. Windsor Foods is an English company.
6 10 Q. Right, and Windsor Nutrition is...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Windsor Nutrition is based in the north of Ireland.
8 11 Q. Right?
9 A. It's an Irish company.
10 12 Q. All right. It is still functioning; is it?
11 A. Yes, as a selling company.
12 13 Q. As a selling company.
13 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Is that registered in
14 the Republic of Ireland?
15 A. It is, yes.
16 JUDGE 0'LEARY: It just operates in the
17 North.
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Yes, I see. I see.
20 14 Q. MS. MACKEY: I had understood that
21 was closed down around
22 the end of 1980's; is that so?
23 A. The manufacturing unit was closed in 1989.
24 15 Q. I see?
25 A. But it's now just a small selling company.
26 16 Q. I see. However, there was no question of it being
27 wound up or anything?
28 A. No.
29 17 Q. I see. Thank you very much. I think that is fine
7
1 now for the background?
2 A. Right.
3 18 Q. You sent us in a statement, Ms. Breen. Do you have
4 a copy of it there because I would like to refer to
5 it?
6 A. No, I don't actually.
7 19 Q. We can give you a copy?
8 A. Yes .
9 20 Q. You can just look at it there (Same Handed),
10 Exhibit 1?
11 A. Thank you.
12 21 Q. In this you set out your...(INTERJECTION).
13 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Would you like a biro
14 and paper, Ms. Breen,
15 or anything like that?
16 A. No, I have a pen. Thank you.
17 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Have you?
18 A. Yes .
19 JUDGE 0'LEARY: All right, grand. Yes.
20 22 Q. MS. MACKEY: If we can just have a
21 look at this statement,
22 Ms. Breen? You set out in it very helpfully the
23 answers to the questions that he had asked you in
24 our initial letter and you set out the two contacts
25 that you believe you had with the company we are
26 investigating?
27 A. Yes .
28 23 Q. Which is now called "Ansbacher" Cayman?
29 A. Yes .
1 24 Q. Which used to be called Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
2 and a number of other names?
3 A. Yes .
4 25 Q. You start off by telling us about the property
5 you purchased in Portugal in 1980?
6 A. Yes .
7 26 Q. You discussed the proposed purchase with
8 Des Traynor?
9 A. Yes .
10 27 Q. Who you say was a personal friend of yours?
11 A. Yes .
12 28 Q. Did you have at that stage -- where you working
13 with Merops and Windsor at that point in 1980?
14 A. Yes .
15 29 Q. You were. Were you Financial Director/Controller?
16 A. Yes .
17 30 Q. In both of them?
18 A. Yes .
19 31 Q. Did either of those companies, or did you
20 personally, bank with Guinness & Mahon prior to
21 that date?
22 A. No, the companies didn't bank -- we would have used
23 Guinness & Mahon in relation to French Francs. At
24 one point I know we were receiving a lot of French
25 Francs and there was a vat situation in whereby we
26 had to pay vat in France before our products went
27 in and we didn't receive it back for months later
28 and we were -- I can't remember what the word is.
29 We had Letters of Credit which we gave to

1 Guinness & Mahon.
2 32 Q. Right?
3 A. That is the only time I can remember I using
4 Guinness & Mahon.
5 33 Q. Prior to 1980?
6 A. Yes.
7 34 Q. What about you personally? Did you have a banking
8 relationship with them?
9 A. I had a borrowing with Guinness & Mahon in the
10 late 1970's.
11 35 Q. Yes?
12 A. In order to purchase a house.
13 36 Q. Yes. This was not...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. Which was a three year loan.
15 37 Q. This was not the same house that we are talking
16 about here?
17 A. No, no. This was here in Ireland.
18 38 Q. I see?
19 A. A three year loan and I -- it was paid back over
20 three years.
21 39 Q. Yes. Can I just get some kind of background on your
22 connection with Guinness & Mahon because as you know
23 it is through Guinness & Mahon that one has the
24 connection with "Ansbacher"?
25 A. Yes.
26 40 Q. When did you first enter into some kind of business
27 relationship with Guinness & Mahon? Was it through
28 Mr. Traynor, who I believe was a friend of yours?
29 A. Yes, my connection with Mr. Traynor goes back.
10
1 Mr. Traynor's wife was my next-door neighbour when
2 I was a child.
3 41 Q. Yes?
4 A. So, I have known Mrs. Traynor all my life.
5 42 Q. Yes. Through Mr. Traynor then?
6 A. So, through Mr. Traynor then.
7 43 Q. You came to bank with Guinness & Mahon?
8 A. We didn't actually bank with
9 Guinness...(INTERJECTION).
10 44 Q. Borrow?
11 A. With Guinness & Mahon.
12 45 Q. To borrow with Guinness & Mahon?
13 A. Yes.
14 4 6 Q. Why did you decide to approach Guinness & Mahon
15 rather than whatever your own bank was at the time?
16 A. Because I knew Mr. Traynor and I was -- at that
17 stage I was buying a house. It was extremely
18 difficult.
19 47 Q. Yes?
20 A. Women didn't get loans from building societies.
21 48 Q. Yes?
22 A. And things in those days.
23 49 Q. Yes?
24 A. And eventually the Irish Permanent gave me a loan
25 of part of the money and the balance Mr. Traynor
26 said he would organise for me and I paid it back
27 over three years.
28 50 Q. I see. I would just like to show you a document,
29 Ms. Breen? It is page 53 I think. I will just
11
1 check that. Yes, page 53 & 54 (Same Handed,
2 Exhibit 2 and Exhibit 3)?
3 A. Thank you.
4 51 Q. You see this document, Ms. Breen? You see your
5 name there sort of halfway down it?
6 A. Yes .
7 52 Q. Towards the end?
8 A. Yes .
9 53 Q. This is a Guinness & Mahon internal document
10 detailing loans that were given to different
11 people and this is detailing a loan in 1977
12 with the return date of the 30th December 1978;
13 do you see that?
14 A. Yes .
15 54 Q. It is a loan for £8,000 sterling. Would that be,
16 do you think, the loan that you are talking about?
17 A. I think it could. The date is 1977?
18 55 Q. Yes?
19 A. December 1977. Are you -- is this saying that it
20 was paid off by December 1978?
21 56 Q. No, the date that it was due to be paid off was 197
22 but we see on the next document that in fact it was
23 extended for a further year. However, what I am
24 really asking you is: Is that the amount of the
25 loan that you were telling me about a few moments
26 ago?
27 A. (Indicating).
28 57 Q. This is likely to be the loan?
29 A. Likely to be it.
1 58 Q. Yes?
2 A. I don't remember the exact amount.
3 59 Q. Yes?
4 A. But it is likely to be that.
5 60 Q. Yes, it seems that it is. What I would like you
6 to look at there on that document is: You see the
7 loan and then the limit and then the interest rate
8 and the maturity date and then you have

Q
j
10
"Security"
11
12 do you see that?
13 A. Yes .
14 61 Q. It says:
15
16 "Suitably secured."
17
18 And that is in inverted commas and then we have:

1 Q
20 "Guarantee completed by T. McLoughlin."
21
22 It is referring to two types of security there.
23 One is a guarantee by Mr. McLoughlin, who I think
24 was connected with Windsor and Merops; is that not
25 correct?
26 A. Yes .
27 62 Q. And the other is suitably secured. I do not know
28 if you are familiar with the expression "suitably
29 secured" as used by Guinness & Mahon as a
13
1 description of loans? There has been some talk
2 about it in the media?
3 A. Yes.
4 63 Q. So, I think you may have heard about it. "Suitably
5 secured" Guinness & Mahon have told us when placed
6 in inverted commas like that means secured on a
7 deposit held with one of the off shore subsidiaries
8 of Guinness & Mahon. Basically it means it is a
9 cash backed loan?
10 A. Right.
11 64 Q. And that part of the security used was deposits
12 somewhere off shore, either in "Ansbacher" or in
13 its Channel Islands subsidiary. Your loan in 1977
14 is so described. It is described as being backed
15 on an off shore deposit and I was wondering if you
16 could throw any light on that for me?
17 A. I have no idea why that should have been. I think
18 Mr. McLoughlin might have guaranteed if I -- to
19 Guinness & Mahon if I didn't repay the loan that
20 he would have repaid it.
21 65 Q. Yes?
22 A. But I have no idea; the suitably.
23 66 Q. You cannot ...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. No.
25 67 Q. We will come in a few moments to what you told us in
26 your statement about a fund being set aside for you?
27 A. Yes.
28 68 Q. By Mr. McLoughlin?
29 A. But that was later.
14
1 69 Q. However, that was later?
2 A. Yes.
3 70 Q. Did you prior to 1980, prior to Mr. McLoughlin
4 setting aside the funds, have funds off shore?
5 A. No.
6 71 Q. With them?
7 A. No.
9 A. No.
10 73 Q. Is it possible that this could refer to funds off
11 shore held by Mr. McLoughlin himself?
12 A. I wouldn't think so, no.
13 74 Q. You would not think so?
14 A. No. In fact I -- well, I can't say I know.
15 It's not --
16 75 Q. I see. If you just look at the next page,
17 Exhibit 3. Again it is more of the same really.
18 You can see up at the top there:
19
20 "Miss Barbara Breen - EXTENSION."
21
22 A. Yes.
23 76 Q. This is saying -- sorry, actually this is the
24 previous year, as I now see, because the review
25 date is the 20th December 1977; do you see that?
26 A. Yes.
27 77 Q. So, obviously it had been extended already;
28 perhaps from the previous year. So, the first
29 one we looked at was the later year. However,
15
1 again you see:
3 "Guarantee of T. McLoughlin held.

Suitably secured."
4
6 It is again described that way?
7 A. I have not idea why that is.
8 78 Q. You have no idea?
9 A. No.
10 79 Q. Okay, we will pass on from that. Getting back to
11 your statement, Ms. Breen?
12 A. Yes .
13 80 Q. You tell us about the purchase of this property in
14 Portugal?
15 A. Yes .
16 81 Q. And you had discussed the proposed purchase with
17 Mr. Traynor and you explain that you had been
18 advised that there where substantial taxes if you
19 passed on this property if it was in your own name?
20 A. Yes .
21 82 Q. So, Mr. Traynor advised that you put it in the name
22 of a company. Can you remember the conversation and
23 what exactly it was he said to you about that?
24 A. I can't really remember the details of the
25 conversation.
26 83 Q. May be if I ask you a few specific questions?
27 A. It was...(INTERJECTION).
28 84 Q. I know it is a long time ago. We are going back
29 to 1980. However, you told him you wanted to buy
16
1 a property in Portugal?
2 A. Yes.
3 85 Q. And he said to you that it would be better that it
4 was not in your own name?
5 A. That was -- no.
6 86 Q. No?
7 A. It was a lawyer in Portugal.
8 87 Q. Yes?
9 A. Who first raised the issue of the house not being
10 bought in my name because I didn't have children.
11 88 Q. Yes?
12 A. And the taxes was prohibitive in -- inheritance
13 taxes were prohibitive.
14 89 Q. Yes?
15 A. And she said she thought the company should be
16 bought -- the house should be bought by a company.
17 90 Q. Yes. She said this to you or to Mr. Traynor?
18 A. No, to me.
19 91 Q. To you. Yes?
20 A. Mr. Traynor I think wouldn't have...(INTERJECTION).
21 92 Q. Was not involved in it at that stage?
22 A. I don't think he was involved in that.
23 93 Q. Did you say this then to Mr. Traynor; is that what
24 happened?
25 A. I would have said that to Mr. Traynor.
26 94 Q. Yes?
27 A. And he said he could organise an off shore company.
28 95 Q. Right?
29 A. My understanding was that there was nothing wrong
17
1 with that.
2 96 Q. Yes, yes, and essentially there was not either.
3 Did he say to you where the company was?
4 A. No.
5 97 Q. He did not?
6 A. No.
7 98 Q. So, you were not aware that this was a
8 company...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. He gave me the name of the company
10 which...(INTERJECTION).
11 99 Q. Yes. He told you the name of the company?
12 A. The name of the company which I then gave to
13 the lawyer.
14 100 Q. This company was simply to hold the property in
15 your name; is that it?
16 A. Yes.
17 101 Q. With regard then to the payment for the house:
18 Were funds made available to the company; is
19 that what happened?
20 A. No, I don't think there were funds made available
21 to the company. Mr. McLoughlin loaned me the money.
22 102 Q. Right?
23 A. To buy that house.
24 103 Q. Yes?
25 A. So, the money was brought to Portugal.
26 104 Q. Yes?
27 A. To pay for that house.
28 105 Q. I see, I see?
29 A. But they didn't go through Coral Reef; the funds.
18
1 106 Q. It did not go through Coral Reef?
2 A. No.
3 107 Q. I see?
4 A. I brought the money to the solicitor in Portugal.
5 108 Q. You personally went over; did you?
6 A. Yes .
7 109 Q. Right. Could we look, Tom, at page 158
8 (Same Handed), Exhibit 4?
9 JUDGE O'LEARY: Was that in cash or in
10 cheques ?
11 A. No, it was a...(INTERJECTION).
12 JUDGE O'LEARY: Or a bank draft?
13 A. A bank draft.
14 JUDGE O'LEARY: It was a bank draft.
15 Drawn on which bank; do
16 you remember?
17 A. Oh, gosh, I couldn't remember.
18 JUDGE O'LEARY: You do not remember, I
19 see. Was it an Irish bank
20 do you think?
21 A. I think it was an English bank.
22 JUDGE O'LEARY: An English bank.
23 A. It was a sterling --
24 JUDGE O'LEARY: I see, grand.
25 110 Q. MS. MACKEY: Page 158. You have it?
26 A. Yes .
27 111 Q. This is a memorandum, as you see, Ms. Breen?
28 A. Yes .
29 112 Q. To Mr. Traynor from John Furze. Are you familiar

1 with the name John Furze?
2 A. Yes.
3 113 Q. Yes. He was one of the Managers of Coral Reef; is
4 that not correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 114 Q. And he was also a Managing Director of "Ansbacher"
7 Cayman as it happened?
8 A. Yes.
9 115 Q. You see this memorandum says:
10
11 "Re: Coral Reef Securities Ltd."
12
13 And it is dated January 30th 1992.
14
15 "Attached is an invoice relative to

the above company for administration
16 services and disbursements for three
years to 31-12-91."
17
18
19 A. Yes.
20 116 Q. Can you explain to me what disbursements Coral Reef
21 would have been making over the years up to 1991?
22 A. I couldn't. I mean they were companies -- they were
23 -- excuse me, may I just?
24 117 Q. If you want to speak to...(INTERJECTION)
25 A. Ann, I don't know what the legal...(INTERJECTION).
26 MS. CORRIGAN: The Company's Office fees.
27 A. The Company's Office fees.
28 MS. CORRIGAN: Annual fees.
29 A. And Government — a Government...(INTERJECTION).
30
20
1 MS. CORRIGAN: Filing fee or something.
2 A. Filing fee.
3 118 Q. MS. MACKEY: These would be
4 disbursements made
5 by Coral Reef?
6 A. Well, that is the only thing that I know about.
7 119 Q. Right?
8 A. Because the fees were paid over the years and it
9 wasn't until recently that I had ever seen an
10 invoice.
11 120 Q. I see?
12 A. To do with this. So, I -- that is --
13 121 Q. I see. Do you know Mr. Jack Stakelum, Ms. Breen?
14 A. Yes. He is a Director of Merops (Nutrition)
15 Limited.
16 122 Q. I see?
17 A. Has been for a number of years.
18 123 Q. He is a Director of Merops?
19 A. Yes .
20 124 Q. Yes. Because I notice in the Declaration of Trust
21 that you sent us in in connection with the purchase
22 of the Portuguese property?
23 A. Yes .
24 125 Q. That the final paragraph states that in the event
25 of the simultaneous death of yourself and
26 Mr. McLoughlin instructions for the disposition
27 of the property would come either from Mr. Traynor
28 or Mr. Stakelum?
29 A. Yes .
1 126 Q. So, Mr. Stakelum then at that stage was aware of
2 your Portuguese transaction; was he?
3 A. He would have been aware.
4 127 Q. Yes?
5 A. That I had a house.
6 128 Q. Yes. In fact he was so intimately connected with
7 it that in fact he was appointed by you presumably
8 to be the person who would give instructions after
9 your death; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, Mr. Traynor -- Mr. Stakelum was a Director
11 of the companies for many years.
12 129 Q. Yes?
13 A. And as Financial Advisor I have know him for many
14 many years.
15 130 Q. Yes, yes. Did he ever personally advise you in
16 connection with your finances?
17 A. No; Mr. Stakelum.
18 131 Q. He did not?
19 A. No.
20 132 Q. Yes. I would like to show you a number of
21 documents, Ms. Breen. First of all I would like
22 to show you pages 105, 106 and 175. Tom, please
23 in that order (Same Handed), Exhibit 5, Exhibit 6
24 and Exhibit 7?
25 A. Thank you.
26 133 Q. You will see that the pages are numbered down at the
27 bottom, Ms. Breen; do you see that? If you look at
28 page 105 first?
29 A. Yes .
1 134 Q. Can we do that?
2 A. Yes.
3 135 Q. This is a letter from a company called Hamilton
4 Ross. I do not know if you are familiar with this
5 company; are you?
6 A. From the -- eventually from everything that has
7 happened, yes.
8 136 Q. From everything. As you know it was at one time one
9 and the same as "Ansbacher" effectively?
10 A. Yes.
11 137 Q. And held accounts on behalf of clients of
12 "Ansbacher" within the general "Ansbacher" scheme.
13 Here we see a letter from Hamilton Ross with an
14 address which is in fact the address of "Ansbacher":
15
16 "P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman,

Cayman Islands."
17
18
19 And up on the top left-hand corner you see we have:
20
21 "Please rely to: 8 Inns Court,

Winetavern Street, Dublin 8."
22
23
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
26 138 Q. It is addressed t o a Ms. Paula Hartnett of the
27 Irish Intercontinental Bank?
28 A. Yes.
29 139 Q. You may or may not know what the IIB has to do with
23
1 any of this; most people who come to see us do not.
2 However, in fact what happened was: The "Ansbacher"
3 deposits that were held in Ireland in Guinness &
4 Mahon up to 1991 were moved to IIB at that stage?
5 A. Yes .
6 140 Q. Mostly unknown to the clients who actually held
7 funds in "Ansbacher". So, from 1991 onwards
8 "Ansbacher's" accounts were in IIB rather than
9 Guinness & Mahon. That is the only significance of
10 IIB here?
11 A. Yes .
12 141 Q. Here you see this letter is written by Hamilton
13 Ross, somebody on its behalf:
14
15 "Dear Paula, please arrange to let me

have a draft for STG£25,000.00 payable
16 Windsor Nutrition Ltd and debit the
cost to..."
17
18
19 And it gives an account which you can take it from
20 me is the account number of "Ansbacher" in IIB?
21 A. Yes .
22 142 Q. This is a sterling draft for Windsor Nutrition?
23 A. Yes .
24 143 Q. In 1997 were you Managing Director or Financial
25 Director of Windsor?
26 A. Yes .
27 144 Q. Both or either?
28 A. I'm -- well, I'm still both I suppose.
29 145 Q. You are still both, I see. So, you would have
1 been both at that stage?
2 A. Yes .
3 146 Q. So, would you be familiar with this transaction
4 then?
5 A. I would be familiar with a £25,000 draft lodged to
6 Windsor Nutrition.
7 147 Q. Yes?
8 A. But I wouldn't have known anything about
9 Hamilton Ross or...(INTERJECTION).
10 148 Q. No. However, would this cheque have come to
11 be lodged, or this draft come to be lodged, to
12 Windsor Nutrition? Where did that come from or
13 who gave instructions for its withdrawal from
14 wherever it came from?
15 A. I would have telephoned Mr. Stakelum.
16 149 Q. Yes?
17 A. And said that we needed £25,000 sterling and he
18 would have arranged for this, the £25,000 sterling,
19 to be sent to Windsor Nutrition in the north of
20 Ireland.
21 150 Q. Mr. Stakelum would have arranged it?
22 A. Yes .
23 151 Q. I see?
24 A. I don't know how Mr. Stakelum -- I mean I spoke
25 to Mr. Stakelum.
26 152 Q. Yes?
27 A. But...(INTERJECTION).
28 153 Q. Yes?
29 A. Because when...(INTERJECTION).
1 154 Q. May be if I can...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Mr. Traynor was dead at that stage.
3 155 Q. Yes, I understand. May be we can
4 tease...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. Mr. Traynor had money belonging to Mr. McLoughlin.
6 He needed money so that's --
7 156 Q. I see. May be we can go back a little bit. We
8 might have got ahead of ourselves here. Mr. Traynor
9 was looking after money for Mr. McLoughlin; is that
10 the situation?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 157 Q. Is this money separate from the fund that
13 Mr. McLoughlin had set up?
14 A. No, that is the same.
15 158 Q. It is the same fund?
16 A. The same, yes.
17 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Your fund?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Yes.
20 MS. MACKEY: May be we should clarify
21 whose fund exactly this
22 was. What is your understanding of the fund that
23 was set aside for you by Mr. McLoughlin? Was it
24 your money to dispose of?
25 A. No, I think what I thought, if I thought at all
26 about it, was: Is that this was something which
27 was there if the roof fell in.
28 159 Q. If the roof fell in?
29 A. For want of putting it...(INTERJECTION).
26
1 160 Q. Yes?
2 A. If the companies were in difficulties, if
3 Mr. McLoughlin died, if I were left. This was
4 all a very personal thing.
5 161 Q. I understand?
6 A. This wasn't anything to do with deliberate evasion
7 of anything.
8 162 Q. No, I understand that?
9 A. It was -- it's very personal.
10 163 Q. Yes. What I need to clarify is whose fund it was
11 because the situation we are in here and the only
12 thing we are trying to do in any of these interviews
13 is establish the clients of "Ansbacher" because this
14 is what we have been directed by the High Court to
15 do. We are investigating "Ansbacher" itself and not
16 the clients?
17 A. Yes.
18 164 Q. However, we have to, because we were told to, find
19 out who the clients were?
20 A. Yes.
21 165 Q. So, here in the situation that we are looking at
22 with regard to you we have a fund which is clearly
23 an "Ansbacher" fund. There is no doubt about that?
24 A. Yes.
25 166 Q. And the difficulty we are in is in deciding whether
26 it is your fund or Mr. McLoughlin's fund or indeed a
27 joint fund and as Mr. McLoughlin is no longer with
28 us?
29 A. Yes.
27
1 167 Q. We have to try and find out as best we can from you.
2 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Could I just say to help,
3 Ms. Breen, if you would
4 not mind?
5 MS. MACKEY: No.
6 JUDGE 0'LEARY: We are not interested in
7 any personal matters.
8 They are matters of no concern to us. You can rest
9 assured that insofar as and to the extend that we
10 come across any personal matters they will be dealt
11 with in the most discrete way with regard to our
12 report. They will not feature in our report. It is
13 not a thing we are interested in at all. However,
14 as Ms. Mackey says we have to find out whose money
15 it was and that is really our only interest.
16 MS. MACKEY: Absolutely.
17 JUDGE 0'LEARY: That is our only interest.
18 Set your mind at rest with
19 regard to any other worries you might have?
20 A. Okay.
21 JUDGE 0'LEARY: They are not worries; all
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE 0'LEARY: You can just ignore those.
25 A. Well, I think -- excuse me.
27 A. Did -- Ann, did you write to the
28 Inspectors originally in relation to
29 Mr. McLoughlin's...(INTERJECTION)?
28
1 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes, I did, yes.
2 A. So, the money; if I may put this correctly?
3 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
4 A. The money which Mr. McLoughlin gave to Mr. Traynor,
5 having been asked by Mr. Traynor for this money.
6 168 Q. Yes?
7 A. Not having offered it.
8 169 Q. Yes?
9 A. Was Mr. McLoughlin's money. It wasn't --
10 170 Q. Yes?
11 A. It wasn't my money.
12 171 Q. Right?
13 A. But the intention was that if anything happened to
14 him; if he died a lot sooner than he died.
15 172 Q. Yes?
16 A. Or I don't know. I really don't know. It wasn't
17 money that was -- came into the everyday business.
18 173 Q. Yes, I understand?
19 A. Of either our lives or of our business.
20 174 Q. Yes?
21 A. It was just that money was there.
22 175 Q. Set aside for a rainy day?
23 A. Probably, yes.
24 176 Q. Yes?
25 A. That is the best way to put it.
26 177 Q. Yes.
27 JUDGE O'LEARY: Supposing God forbid,
28 and I am glad it did
29 not happen, Mr. McLoughlin died in 1987?
29
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Supposing God forbid he
3 actually died in 1987?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE 0'LEARY: There was a lump of money
6 out there somewhere.
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE 0'LEARY: What would have happened
9 the money; did you know?
10 A. I didn't. I didn't really.
11 JUDGE 0'LEARY: However, you knew the
12 money was there?
13 A. But I knew it -- yes.
14 JUDGE 0'LEARY: And you knew it would make
15 its way to you eventually?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE 0'LEARY: All right.
18 A. I knew that Mr. Traynor -- I trusted that
19 Mr. Traynor would take -- give it to me when I --
20 if I ... (INTERJECTION) .
21 JUDGE 0'LEARY: When you needed it?
22 A. When I needed it or for whatever reason.
23 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I see.
24 A. I had no reason to believe that he wouldn't.
25 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Well...(INTERJECTION).
26 A. Because as far as we were concerned Mr. Traynor
27 was holding this with personal funds.
29 178 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes. Just getting back to
30
1 these two documents then,
2 Ms. Breen?
3 JUDGE O'LEARY: There is only one document
4 she has seen so far.
5 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
6 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes.
7 MS. MACKEY: Yes, but she has three in
8 front of her.
10 179 Q. MS. MACKEY: We are looking at the
11 first one?
12 A. Yes .
13 A. You started to tell me that you remember this
14 transaction because you contacted Mr. Stakelum;
15 Mr. Traynor being dead at the time.
16 A. Yes .
17 180 Q. Was this something that from time to time during
18 Mr. Traynor's life you would do when money was
19 needed for one of the companies? Knowing this
20 fund was there you would contact Mr. Traynor?
21 Would that be the way it happened?
22 A. I think I had only contacted Mr. Traynor once
23 in relation to -- I think it was £10,000.
24 181 Q. Yes?
25 A. Irish pounds.
26 182 Q. Yes?
27 A. I think that was the only time I ever contacted him
28 about it.
29 183 Q. Would you do that when you decided it was
31
1 necessary to do so or would you first check with
2 Mr. McLoughlin or would it be his decision to do
3 it or how did this happen?
4 A. I think in relation to that particular £10,000.
5 184 Q. Yes?
6 A. I would have spoken to Mr. McLoughlin.
7 185 Q. Yes?
8 A. And said that, you know -- because that £10,000
9 was for somebody. I had guaranteed a loan
10 stupidity for somebody.
11 186 Q. Yes?
12 A. And they didn't pay it and I had to pay it.
13 187 Q. So you needed this to...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. And that's the only time I can -- but I would
15 have discussed it with Mr. McLoughlin; the
16 fact...(INTERJECTION).
17 188 Q. Of course. In regard to this particular one here,
18 this one payable to Windsor Nutrition (indicating):
19 Was this something you would discuss first with
20 Mr. McLoughlin or would you see that Windsor
21 Nutrition for whatever reason needed this lodgement
22 and you would then apply to Mr. Traynor and in this
23 case Mr. Stakelum?
24 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).
25 189 Q. Yes?
26 A. Mr. Traynor was dead at that stage.
27 190 Q. Mr. Stakelum?
28 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Mr. Traynor was dead, she
29 said, at that stage.

1 MS. MACKEY: I know but this is
2 Mr. Stakelum. Yes.
3 JUDGE O'LEARY: Mr. McLoughlin was not
4 dead now at that stage?
5 A. No, no.
6 MS. MACKEY: No, Mr. McLoughlin was
7 not, no.
9 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
10 JUDGE O'LEARY: No.
11 191 Q. MS. MACKEY: I just want to find out
12 now: Did you speak to
13 Mr. McLoughlin first about this or...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. I would have spoken to him, yes.
15 192 Q. Would you have said to him, "Look, we need this for
16 Windsor Nutrition," or would you have said, "What
17 do you think? Should we ask Mr. Stakelum to get us
18 this," or what?
19 A. I can't remember.
20 193 Q. You cannot remember?
21 A. I am sorry. I couldn't remember.
22 194 Q. Really what I am trying to ascertain is: Would
23 you feel free of your own decision to contact
24 Mr. Traynor or Mr. Stakelum; which ever of them
25 was the case?
26 A. While Mr. McLoughlin was alive?
27 195 Q. Yes?
28 A. No, I would have discussed it.
29 196 Q. You would have discussed with it him?

1 A. I would have discussed it.
2 197 Q. I see. Would you have wanted his agreement; I mean
3 if he had said "no"?
4 A. Yes.
5 198 Q. Yes?
6 A. I would have.
7 199 Q. Just this business of Mr. Stakelum: After
8 Mr. Traynor's death why did you approach
9 Mr. Stakelum about this?
10 A. I am trying to think of the circumstances under
11 which I first would have, we both would have,
12 first spoken to Mr. Stakelum.
13 200 Q. Yes?
14 A. I'm not certain that it wasn't even when -- I can't
15 remember when all this "Ansbacher" thing came out.
16 201 Q. Yes?
17 A. When it started.
18 202 Q. Yes?
19 A. And I think Mr. McLoughlin and myself then were
20 worried.
21 203 Q. Yes?
22 A. That this money was gone.
23 204 Q. Yes?
24 A. In smoke.
25 205 Q. Yes, yes?
26 A. Because we never had any idea of "Ansbacher".
27 206 Q. Yes, yes, of course?
28 A. Or "Ansbacher" accounts or what
29 Mr. Traynor...(INTERJECTION).
34
1 207 Q. So, you may have approached Mr. Stakelum?
2 A. And it may have been -- I can't remember.
3 208 Q. Yes?
4 A. I couldn't remember the exact --
5 209 Q. How would he have known what to do about it?
6 A. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you that.
7 I mean I knew Mr. Traynor and Mr. Stakelum were
8 very friendly.
9 210 Q. Yes?
10 A. And I assumed that he might have known.
11 211 Q. Yes .
12 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I think the point that
13 Ms. Mackey is making to
14 you is...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Sorry.
16 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Of all the people in the
17 whole world faced with
18 this problem; Mr. Traynor is dead and you want
19 to get access to your money.
20 A. Yes .
21 JUDGE 0'LEARY: It does not matter for the
22 moment whose money it is.
23 A. Yes .
24 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Of all the people in the
25 whole world you decide to
26 approach, the person you decide to approach is,
27 Mr. Stakelum.
28 A. Yes .
29 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Why was it Stakelum rather

1 than me and this man
2 (indicating) or anybody at all?
3 A. But... (INTERJECTION) .
4 MS. MACKEY: Or Mr. Collery indeed?
5 JUDGE O'LEARY: Or anybody or Mr. Collery,
6 who was deeply involved in
7 assisting Mr. Traynor?
8 A. For me it would, and Mr. McLoughlin it would, have
9 been because we knew Mr. Stakelum so well.
10 JUDGE O'LEARY: Well...(INTERJECTION).
11 212 Q. MS. MACKEY: However, I mean you might
12 have known me for example
13 but you would not have thought that I would be able
14 to sort out this for you.
15 JUDGE O'LEARY: In other words there must
16 have been -- you must have
17 known some connection in your mind between Stakelum
18 and the money; is the question I think that is
19 being asked?
20 A. Well, how can I explain that? Mr. Stakelum
21 certainly -- we would never have discussed the
22 fact that Mr. Traynor had that money with
23 Mr. Stakelum.
24 213 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes?
25 A. While Mr. Traynor was alive.
26 214 Q. Yes. So, did he know?
27 A. Because in fact Mr. Traynor had asked us not to
28 discuss it with Mr. Stakelum.
29 215 Q. Yes?
36
1 A. Or anybody else for that matter.
2 216 Q. Yes?
3 A. Why I would have, we would have, discussed it with
4 Mr. Stakelum: Well, the only thing I can say is
5 that is because we knew him very well and I don't
6 know --
7 217 Q. Can you recollect -- I mean you went along to
8 Mr. Stakelum at some stage and you would have had
9 to tell him that the money was there because he did
10 not know; is that right?
11 A. I think we would have told Mr. Stakelum about that
12 after Mr. Traynor died.
13 218 Q. Yes?
14 A. Exactly when is what I don't remember.
15 219 Q. When does not matter really. However, you would
16 have told him money was there?
17 A. We would have told him that Mr. Traynor had been
18 given money.
19 220 Q. Yes?
20 A. But we didn't know where the money was.
21 221 Q. Yes?
22 A. So, we couldn't tell him where it -- that it was
23 there as such.
24 222 Q. He must have then reassured you in some way that he
25 would be able to gain access to it because here we
26 are in 1997 and he is getting it for you?
27 A. Well, I'm -- at that stage when we originally told
28 Mr. Stakelum that the money had been given to --
29 Mr. Stakelum didn't appear to know anything about
37
1 it.
2 223 Q. Yes?
3 A. Now, I am trying to think of the...(INTERJECTION).
4 224 Q. Sequence of events?
5 A. The sequence of events as to how. Did we ask
6 Mr. Stakelum was there somebody that he could
7 contact?
8 225 Q. Yes?
9 A. I simply can't remember the details.
10 226 Q. I see, all right.
11 A. But this was in 1997.
12 227 Q. That was 1997. Any way may be we can pass on from
13 that at the moment. If you would look at page 106
14 then, which is the next page although in terms of
15 the sequence of time it is actually an earlier
16 transaction; it is the month prior to that. Do
17 you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 228 Q. 17th January 1997?
20 A. January 1997, yes.
21 229 Q. It is a similar letter from Hamilton Ross to IIB
22 and this time it is looking for a draft for £20,000
23 sterling payable to Windsor Nutrition?
24 A. Yes.
25 230 Q. Do you recollect that as well?
26 A. Yes.
27 231 Q. Again, was it similar?
28 A. It was, yes.
29 232 Q. You went to Mr. Stakelum?
38
1 A. Yes.
2 233 Q. I see.
3 JUDGE O'LEARY: When you went to
4 Mr. Stakelum and said,
5 "I want to ...(INTERJECTION)"?
6 A. I think I might have telephoned him rather than
7 actually...(INTERJECTION).
8 JUDGE O'LEARY: All right. How did you
9 physically get the draft
10 into your hand eventually either at that time or the
11 previous time?
12 A. I'm not sure that I actually got the draft into my
13 hands. I think it was posted.
14 JUDGE O'LEARY: Right.
15 A. To Windsor Nutrition in Northern Ireland and lodged.
16 JUDGE O'LEARY: By whom?
17 A. I think Mr. Stakelum's secretary probably posted it.
18 JUDGE O'LEARY: I see, I see.
19 MS. MACKEY: All right.
20 A. I don't think I ever actually had those drafts.
21 JUDGE O'LEARY: Do you have a copy of
22 that; of the letter
23 accompanying that?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE O'LEARY: Sure, there must be
26 something accompanying it.
27 You do not just open a letter in Belfast or whatever
28 you are located, somebody does not open it, and see
29 a cheque or a draft for £25,000.
39
1 A. But I would have telephoned the girl in the office
2 in the North.
3 JUDGE 0'LEARY: There must be a complement
4 slip with it or there must
5 be a letter with it or something with it.
6 A. I'm not sure that there would have been. I didn't
7 post it. I wouldn't have...(INTERJECTION).
8 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I know you did not but
9 you were the recipient;
10 your company was the recipient.
11 A. Yes, but I would have telephoned the girl in my
12 company in Armagh.
13 JUDGE 0'LEARY: However, she must
14 have...(INTERJECTION).
15 A. And told her that there would the next day be a
16 bank draft for £20,200 or £25,000.
18 A. It would arrive in the post so she would know.
19 JUDGE 0'LEARY: However, she must — there
20 must be something in with
21 it. Nobody -- well, very few people, I am not
22 saying nobody, will send out a draft for £25,000
23 in an envelope without some explanation as to where
24 it is coming from.
25 MS. MACKEY: However, presumably there
26 was an IIB complement slip
27 with it.
28 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Or something.
29 MS. MACKEY: One would not I suppose
40
1 necessarily keep a
2 complement slip.
3 A. I mean I can check with the office.
4 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Would you check?
5 A. In the north of Ireland.
6 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
8 A. If there is anything on file.
9 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Would you do that?
10 A. That something accompanied...(INTERJECTION)
11 JUDGE 0'LEARY: That would be extremely
12 helpful.
13 234 Q. MS. MACKEY: If we could look now at
14 page 175, which is the
15 final one and again it is actually earlier in time?
16 It is the previous year and it is a similar letter;
17 do you see that? Page 175?
18 A. Yes, that is similar to the £20,000.
19 235 Q. A similar letter but this time it is signed
20 by Mr. Collery. Do you know Mr. Collery;
21 Padraig Collery?
22 A. I don't think I have ever -- I think I did. I met
23 Mr. Collery once; the day Mr. Traynor died.
24 236 Q. Yes. However, did you have any dealings with him
25 in connection with these funds?
26 A. No.
27 237 Q. Because here he is making the arrangement, as you
28 can see. He is writing to Paula Hartnett again and
29 he is asking her to let him have a draft for £26,000
41
1 sterling payable to Windsor Nutrition. Again, the
2 cost to be debited to "Ansbacher" and he says:
4 "I will call to collect the draft on

Tuesday evening, please leave at
5 reception."
o
On that occasion Mr. Collery got the draft?
7
A. Yes, I can appreciate what you are saying
8
9 but...(INTERJECTION).
10 238 Q. However, you do not know how you got it from
11 Mr. Collery?
12 A. No, no.
13 239 Q. He may have sent it up, you think, to Northern
14 Ireland?
15 A. No, I don't think Mr. Collery would have sent it
16 to Northern Ireland. I have a
17 feeling...(INTERJECTION).
18 240 Q. Mr. Collery had it physically?
19 A. Yes .
20 241 Q. So, he did something with it?
21 A. Well, I'm not sure that he would have physically
22 sent it, I don't know, or did he give it to
23 Mr. Stakelum's secretary who would have sent it?
24 242 Q. Who would have sent it, I see. Can we look at
25 another document? Page 164 please, Tom
26 (Same Handed), Exhibit 8. This is again an
27 earlier document but it is similar. It is from
28 Hamilton Ross and it is addressed to another
29 person in IIB and it is dated the 29th March 1993.

1 This is saying:
3 "Could you please arrange to let us

have for collection an Irish Pounds
4 cheque for IR£10,000 payable to Merops
(Nutrition) Limited and debit the
5 Sterling cost to Hamilton Ross Account
No. 02/01354/81."
6
8 Down at the very bottom in handwriting -- do you see
9 down in the right-hand corner?
10 A. Yes.
11 243 Q. It says:
12
13 "Cheque by hand to BMB at Merops."
14
15 Is that you?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 244 Q. Barbara Mary Breen; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 245 Q. This... (INTERJECTION) ?
20 A. It — that £10,000 I would have telephoned
21 Mr. Traynor.
22 246 Q. Yes?
23 A. And asked him to get me £10,000.
24 247 Q. Is this the £10,000 you were telling us about
25 earlier?
26 A. Yes.
27 248 Q. Which was the guarantee?
28 A. Yes.
29 249 Q. Why is it payable to Merops rather than to yourself?
43
1 A. Because I would have owed that money to Merops and I
2 needed to pay it back.
4 A. Before the end of the financial year.
5 251 Q. I see. However, essentially it was money for
6 yourself?
7 A. Yes.
8 252 Q. To repay a debt?
9 A. It was lodged to Merops and it would have paid
10 my debt.
11 253 Q. Yes. However, it was your personal debt rather
12 than the company's; is that right?
13 A. It was my personal debt.
14 254 Q. I understand. You also see down here, just above
15 the little handwritten bit; do you see:
16
17 "DPC - Please debit A/A10."
18
19 A. Yes.
20 255 Q. Are you familiar with the code "A/A10"?
21 A. I am now, yes.
22 256 Q. You are now?
23 A. Yes.
24 257 Q. Do you accept that that relates to the deposits
25 set aside by Mr. McLoughlin for you?
26 A. It appears to be from the information which was
27 given to me.
28 258 Q. You sent us in...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. By the...(INTERJECTION).
44
1 259 Q. Or your solicitor sent us in a number of statements ?
2 A. Yes .
3 260 Q. "Ansbacher" and Hamilton Ross statements of those?
4 A. Which were given to me by the Tribunal.
5 261 Q. By the Moriarty Tribunal, yes. Finally, could we
6 look at page 168 (Same Handed), Exhibit 9?
7 A. Thank you.
8 262 Q. Again, this is a letter from Hamilton Ross to IIB
9 and it is dated 5th March 1993. This is slightly
10 different to the others. It says:
11
12 "Dear Ronan, AIB in Jersey have been

requested to transfer an amount of
13 Stg.£89,185.39 to Royal Bank of
a
Scotland for credit to your Account..
14
15
16 That is the account of IIB in the Royal Bank of
17 Scotland,
18
19 "...and onward credit to Hamilton Ross

Account no. 02/01354/81..."
20
21
22 That is the Hamilton Ross account in IIB that the
23 withdrawals we have been looking at have come from.
24
25 "In due course perhaps you could

confirm the receipt of this transfer. a
26
27
28 Then down at the bottom we have again a little note
29 to DPC, who is Mr. Padraig Collery:

2 "Please credit A/A10."
4 Can you throw any light on that transaction?
5 A. Absolutely no idea.
6 263 Q. None at all?
7 A. No.
8 264 Q. Mr. McLoughlin was still alive at that stage?
9 A. Yes.
10 265 Q. Then it appears to be a transfer from Allied Irish
11 Banks in Jersey to his or yours or both of yours
12 account in "Ansbacher" or does that not seem to
13 be the case?
14 A. That's what it appears to be but --
15 266 Q. Do you personally or did you personally have an
16 account in AIB in Jersey?
17 A. No.
18 267 Q. No?
19 A. No.
20 268 Q. Do you know if Mr. McLoughlin had?
21 A. No, he didn't.
23 A. No.
24 270 Q. I see. What about either Merops or Windsor?
25 A. No, it didn't.
26 271 Q. Are you sure Mr. McLoughlin did not? I mean is it
27 possible he had?
28 A. Well, I can be as certain I think as anybody because
29 I would have handled all his transactions.
46
1 272 Q. I see. You do see that here we have a transfer from
2 AIB in Jersey into your funds?
3 A. Yes.
4 273 Q. And you can throw no light on that?
5 A. No.
6 274 Q. I see. Any way just to recap then, Ms. Breen,
7 because I do not think I have any more questions
8 for you after this, and just to try again to be
9 clear about the ownership of these funds: Your
10 understanding of it is that Mr. McLoughlin put
11 them there for his and your use; is that correct?
12 Did he draw on them during his lifetime?
13 A. Well, he would have drawn these amounts
14 (indicating).
15 275 Q. The Windsor ones?
16 A. These Windsor ones.
17 276 Q. Yes?
18 A. But other than that he wouldn't have drawn. I did
19 that (indicating).
20 277 Q. You were able to draw on it for the particular
21 thing...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. That £10,000 was...(INTERJECTION).
23 278 Q. Did you draw on it for any other?
24 A. No, no.
25 279 Q. You do not recollect?
26 A. There were these three sterling ones (indicating).
27 No, I don't think there was anything I withdrew
28 for anything else.
29 280 Q. After Mr. McLoughlin's death then what happened?
47
1 A. Well, the money was -- Mr. McLoughlin had brought
2 that money back.
3 281 Q. Yes?
4 A. When he realized where the money was.
5 282 Q. Yes?
6 A. He brought that money back.
7 283 Q. I see?
8 A. To Ireland.
9 284 Q. Right?
10 A. And lodged it with Anglo Irish.
11 285 Q. I see. So, in fact it had at that stage been
12 brought back?
13 A. That was I think brought back about two years ago.
14 I can't remember exactly the details.
15 286 Q. Mr. McLoughlin's death was just last year; is
16 that not right?
17 A. January 2000.
18 287 Q. Yes?
19 A. So, 1999. I think it was probably 1998.
20 288 Q. You were aware from 1980 that this fund was there.
21 You were aware that in an emergency you could use
22 it?
23 A. I -- yes.
24 289 Q. However, you felt that in order to use it you had
25 to notify Mr. McLoughlin first or ask him?
26 A. Yes.
27 290 Q. Or at least make him aware of it?
28 A. Certainly, yes, I would have discussed it.
29 291 Q. Whether it was for your own use or for the company's
48
1 use?
2 A. Yes, certainly I would have discussed it.
3 292 Q. However, having discussed it with him you then went
4 to Mr. Traynor or as the case might be Mr. Stakelum.
5 It was you rather than Mr. McLoughlin who went; is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes, because I would have dealt with all the
8 financial aspects.
9 293 Q. Yes, yes?
10 A. Mr. McLoughlin wasn't very good at keeping --
11 294 Q. Right, right. On the occasions when you went to
12 Mr. Traynor himself, prior to Mr. Stakelum taking
13 over, would you just say to him that you needed
14 X amount of funds?
15 A. Well, I think the only time I clearly can remember.
16 295 Q. Yes?
17 A. And I think that was the only occasion.
18 296 Q. Yes?
19 A. Was the £10,000.
20 297 Q. Right?
21 A. And I would have I think may be just telephoned him.
22 298 Q. Yes?
23 A. Or saw him in the house. I mean I...(INTERJECTION).
24 299 Q. Yes, and he would tell you that he could arrange it?
25 A. Yes.
26 300 Q. And in due course the cheque or whatever would
27 arrive?
28 A. Yes.
29 301 Q. I see. I have no further questions, Ms. Breen.
49
Thank you very much.
A. Thank you very much.
302 Q. Judge O'Leary may have some.
END OF EXAMINATION OF MS. BREEN BY MS. MACKEY.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
50
1 MS. BREEN WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY JUDGE O'LEARY:
4 303 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. Who owns the
5 companies that got
6 the money; on page 175 for example, Exhibit 7?
7 A. Windsor?
8 304 Q. Nutrition Limited?
9 A. Windsor Nutrition.
10 305 Q. Yes?
11 A. Well, Mr. McLoughlin was the majority shareholder
12 up to his death in Windsor Nutrition.
13 306 Q. What percentage did he hold; do you remember?
14 A. 99 and I had one.
15 307 Q. You had one?
16 A. Yes.
17 308 Q. Who owns it now?
18 A. Well, his -- its divided between his two daughters
19 and myself.
20 309 Q. Yes. What percentage do you each have?
21 A. One third each of it.
22 310 Q. One third each. All right, grand?
23 A. One third each of Windsor Nutrition.
24 311 Q. That is just number one. This fund originally
25 started at something over £300,000; is that not
26 correct?
27 A. I think it was, yes.
28 312 Q. £380,000?
29 A. Yes.
51
1 313 Q. I am not really interested in the numbers?
2 A. Yes, yes, it was about that.
3 314 Q. I try to avoid numbers if I can but just to give
4 some idea of it. Obviously, it earned interest
5 over the years?
6 A. Yes.
7 315 Q. And obviously payments were made out of it just
8 like we have mentioned here including the £10,000?
9 A. Yes.
10 316 Q. So, by the time it came back in 1988 or whatever the
11 appropriate...(INTERJECTION)?
12 A. 1998.
13 317 Q. 1998?
14 A. Yes. I think it was 1998, yes.
15 318 Q. 1998 or 1999, whatever the appropriate year was?
16 A. Yes.
17 319 Q. It still was a substantial amount of money?
18 A. Yes, although I remember Mr. McLoughlin
19 saying...(INTERJECTION).
20 320 Q. Yes?
21 A. That if the money had been put into a building
22 society loan.
23 321 Q. Yes, it would have been better off, I understand?
24 A. And everything handled by himself or by me.
25 322 Q. Yes?
26 A. Or whatever.
27 323 Q. Yes?
28 A. That the fund would have been an awful lot more.
29 324 Q. All right?
52
1 A. I know that that was something he felt very
2 strongly about.
3 325 Q. What happened that money eventually? Who shall we
4 say -- it went -- eventually you say it went into
5 Anglo Irish. Did any of it go to the Channel
6 Islands ?
7 A. No.
8 326 Q. No, all right. So, it went into Anglo Irish?
9 A. Yes .
10 327 Q. Who owned that money eventually? Who owns it today
11 shall we say for example?
12 A. Well, when everything -- Mr. McLoughlin would have
13 spent some of it.
15 A. You know on various expenses.
16 329 Q. Yes?
17 A. But the residue of Mr. McLoughlin's Will all comes
18 to me.
19 330 Q. Yes. Ultimately it made its way to you less
20 whatever amount had been spent in the meantime?
21 A. Yes .
22 331 Q. Yes .
23 MS. CORRIGAN: Just to clarify?
25 MS. CORRIGAN: It went back into
26 an account in
27 Tom McLoughlin's name.
28 A. Yes, yes.
29 MS. CORRIGAN: In his lifetime it went

1 into an account in
2 Tom McLoughlin's name.
3 MS. MACKEY: I see, that is helpful.
4 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes.
5 A. It is not -- sorry.
6 MS. CORRIGAN: Sorry, just to clarify a
7 point.
8 332 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. When it was brought
9 back it was brought back
10 in his name?
11 A. Yes .
12 333 Q. Not in your name?
13 A. No.
14 334 Q. I see. Ultimately you acquired ownership of it
15 again or re-acquired ownership of it again as the
16 residual legatee on his death?
17 MS. CORRIGAN: Well...(INTERJECTION)?
18 335 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Would that be a
19 fair summary of the
20 position?
21 A. Yes .
22 336 Q. I see.
23 MS. CORRIGAN: Sorry, again just to
24 mention that the Estate
25 is not fully administered yet.
26 A. Yes .
27 MS. MACKEY: All right.
28 MS. CORRIGAN: So, in fact the Executors
29 still have control of that

1 fund.
2 A. It is the Executors who still have it.
3 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I see, yes.
4 MS. MACKEY: So, in fact that fund, the
5 fund that had been out to
6 Cayman, formed part of Mr. McLoughlin's Estate in
7 due course?
8 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes, it did, yes.
9 MS. MACKEY: I see.
10 MS. CORRIGAN: May be — would you mind
11 if I comment
12 on...(INTERJECTION)?
13 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I might have a few more
14 questions now first.
15 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes, Okay. Sorry.
16 337 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Yes, thank you. I wonder
17 would you show this kind
18 lady number 57; page number 57 (Same Handed),
19 Exhibit 10? We are going back now to a time before
20 Mr. Traynor died and before Mr. McLoughlin died in
21 which there were substantial disbursements to
22 Windsor Foods, Windsor Nutrition and Merops
23 (Nutrition). Do you remember as the Financial
24 Director of the company receiving those monies
25 (indicating)?
26 A. Yes.
27 338 Q. They are in addition to the monies which were put
28 to you by Ms. Mackey; is that not correct?
29 A. Yes, they are.
55
1 339 Q. Yes. So, that is another substantial tranche
2 of money. How was that received?
3 A. That was received in a sterling -- I can't
4 remember if these were cheques or drafts.
5 340 Q. Yes. I think ...(INTERJECTION).
6 MS. MACKEY: I think they were drafts.
7 A. I don't know if that matters.
8 341 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: It says:
10 "Please debit the cost of all four

Drafts ..."
11
12
13 A. Yes. Well... (INTERJECTION) .
14 342 Q. I am not really concerned whether they were cheques
15 or drafts any way?
16 A. Sorry.
17 343 Q. It does not make any difference to me?
18 A. Yes.
19 344 Q. However, how did you arrange that?
20 A. I spoke to Mr. Traynor about these four
21 (indicating).
22 345 Q. Yes?
23 A. It was for those amounts (indicating) and it was
24 at a time when the companies were in financial
25 difficulties.
26 346 Q. Yes, I understand that?
27 A. And...(INTERJECTION).
28 347 Q. And I am not concerned with that aspect of the
29 matter.
56
1 A. They...(INTERJECTION).
2 348 Q. That is of no interest?
3 A. Mr. McLoughlin needed, or we needed, to put some
4 injection of funds into the companies and the reason
5 why they were done in those amounts is I think: The
6 £2,000 loan, Irish, was probably a loan may
7 be Mr. McLoughlin had with Merops.
8 349 Q. Yes?
9 A. So, that would have gone back to pay that loan. The
10 £34,000: That was in relation to the claim. We had
11 sold a number of products to France which tins had
12 exploded and there was a claim from the customer and
13 we eventually thought it would be sorted out and it
14 wasn't and because as I said the companies were in
15 financial difficulties I was terrified to either
16 tell the banks or the auditors that we were going
17 to have an additional £34,000 loss on that. So, I
18 would have spoken to Mr. Traynor in relation to
19 these amounts (indicating). He would have given
20 them to me.
21 350 Q. Yes. How would they have been dealt with in the
22 company's accounts?
23 A. The £34,000 would have paid the claim. We had
24 an outstanding claim.
25 351 Q. I understand that?
26 A. From a customer.
27 352 Q. Somebody in France?
28 A. Yes. So, that amount of the £34,000 would have gone
29 in against that.
1 353 Q. I understand that and you can take it that I
2 appreciate that and of course I accept entirely
3 what you say. That is not the question however
4 that I am asking?
5 A. Sorry, I am misunderstanding.
6 354 Q. Yes. The question I am asking is: When a company
7 receives £34,000 from an outside source it has to
8 receive it as a loan or as capital or it has to
9 receive it -- it has to appear in the balance sheet
10 under some guise?
11 A. It would have been a loan. That would then have
12 been owed to Mr. McLoughlin.
13 355 Q. To Mr. McLoughlin?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 356 Q. And would it have...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. Because it was -- he was putting the money in.
17 357 Q. Would that have been shown as being owed to
18 Mr. McLoughlin?
19 A. It would have formed part of a Director's loan
20 account.
21 358 Q. Yes. If I was to look at the accounts of Windsor
22 Foods Limited would I see that in the following year
23 as being an outstanding loan?
24 A. Yes, you -- yes, it would have.
25 359 Q. Yes?
26 A. It would have been lodged.
27 360 Q. Yes, I see. Thank you very much. When you asked
28 Mr. Traynor for that money where did you think that
29 the money was coming from?
58
1 A. With this particular -- these are
2 sums...(INTERJECTION)?
3 361 Q. Any one of them if you like but we
4 will...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. The money which Mr....(INTERJECTION).
6 362 Q. As we have this one open in front of us we might
7 as well take this one?
8 A. But Mr. McLoughlin had given Mr. Traynor money
9 and as this in my view was a very rainy day or a
10 serious situation I had said to Mr. McLoughlin
11 that I was going to ask Mr. Traynor for some
12 money because the company was in...(INTERJECTION).
13 363 Q. Yes, I understand that?
14 A. Dire straights.
15 364 Q. Yes, I understand that. I am sure it was a very
16 wise decision. I am not have criticising that at
17 all. We seem to be at cross purposes. However,
18 Mr. Traynor was not a man who kept the money in his
19 own back pocket. You obviously must have thought he
20 had the money somewhere. Where did you think the
21 money was coming from?
22 A. To be quite truthful with you I didn't really.
23 Mr. Traynor was a banker and he had the money.
24 I didn't have no -- he had told Mr. -- I didn't
25 really think. If I am being very honest I never
26 really worked out where the money was. Mr. Traynor
27 had it and he could arrange to get this money for
28 me.
29 365 Q. Yes. However, you knew it was not in the Rathmines
59
1 branch of the Allied Irish Bank because if it
2 was...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. I didn't think of the Allied Irish Bank.
4 366 Q. I am only talking about -- you did not think it was
5 deposited in some Allied Irish locally or Bank of
6 Ireland because if it was there would have been
7 tax implications with regard to the interest?
8 A. I truthfully never thought where this money was.
9 Mr. McLoughlin had given this money. I only heard
10 about this after the event and Mr. Traynor -- more
11 or less I suppose I thought when I -- when there
12 were -- when these kind of financial problems arose
13 I asked Mr. Traynor for the money.
14 367 Q. Yes, I understand that. However, the question is:
15 Where did you think he was getting the money from;
16 that is the question I am asking you? Where did
17 you think Mr. Traynor had this money on deposit
18 that he could give you access to it? Was it in
19 Guinness & Mahon? Was it in some unknown off
20 shore company or where was it; did you think?
21 A. I don't -- I honestly can't say where I -- I didn't
22 think about it.
23 368 Q. I mean did you think as a...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. Mr. Traynor was handling money for lots of people.
25 369 Q. Did you think that as a Financial -- as a Director
26 of the company and as a potential beneficiary, I
27 will not put it any stronger than that, of the funds
28 did you think that it was possible that interest was
29 being earned on the money? You must have thought
60
1 that there was interest being earned on the money?
2 A. I suppose I must have at some level.
3 370 Q. Yes?
4 A. But it wasn't something.
5 371 Q. At some level.
6 MR. LEYDEN: Sorry, with respect, I
7 think it might be more
8 helpful if the witness were asked what she actually
9 knew; that that might help you in terms of, you
10 know, the facts that you are trying to establish.
11 372 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Yes. I will ask the
12 questions the way I want
13 to ask them myself. Ms. Breen, the question I am
14 asking you is this: You described yourself as the
15 Financial Director of a company and I am sure as a
16 Financial Director of a company you know that if
17 money is available -- if you have -- if you owe
18 people money you pay interest on it and if you have
19 money on deposit normally you get interest on it?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 373 Q. However, that does not inevitably apply nowadays.
22 However, in those days it certainly applied?
23 A. Yes .
24 374 Q. And you agree with that?
25 A. I do but what I am trying -- what I would like to
26 point out to you in relation to this money is that
27 this wasn't money that I actually thought of in
28 real terms. If I may put it to you I am expressing
29 myself badly. This was money which if it were to
61
1 be mine as it were it was going to be under very
2 bad circumstances; Mr. McLoughlin was going to be
3 dead or the company was going to be bankrupt or in
4 some serious difficulty.
5 375 Q. Yes, I understand that, yes?
6 A. I never actually factored that money into any area
7 of the business until this point in 1991 when we
8 were in serious difficulties. I would and I have
9 taken an oath -- I will have to say to you that I
10 never thought about that money.
11 376 Q. You see the question I am really putting to you is:
12 As I understand it from your evidence you had a lot
13 to do with the personal financial affairs of
14 Mr. McLoughlin?
15 A. I did, yes.
16 377 Q. Yes, all right. Taking if you like your personal
17 interest out of it for the moment?
18 A. Yes .
19 378 Q. And leaving that to one side?
20 A. Yes .
21 379 Q. Forget that?
22 A. Yes .
23 380 Q. We will say that it was only a remote interest.
24 However, you know that Mr. McLoughlin had put money
25 approaching £400,000 somewhere?
26 A. Yes .
27 381 Q. That it was earning interest somewhere and that
28 returns should be made to the Revenue Commissioners
29 in respect of that interest. Now, I am not
62
1 concerned about the fact that it was not?
2 A. No, no.
3 382 Q. I am not concerned...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. But what I am trying to say to you is
5 that...(INTERJECTION).
6 383 Q. I just want to know what was in your mind?
7 A. That in the same terms as I have said to you that
8 I never thought about this money.
9 384 Q. Yes?
10 A. Or factored it into the -- Mr. McLoughlin equally
11 wouldn't have. It's very difficult to explain to
12 you. Mr. Traynor was the one who asked
13 Mr. McLoughlin for this money on by behalf.
14 385 Q. Yes?
15 A. Mr. McLoughlin didn't go to Mr. Traynor and say,
16 "I have this money. Please do something with it."
17 It was Mr. Traynor who asked Mr. McLoughlin for
18 this money in order to take -- to look after me
19 if something happened to him or whatever. Sorry,
20 I don't know if...(INTERJECTION).
21 MS. CORRIGAN: No, no, that is fine.
22 386 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Thank you very much.
23 There is just one other
24 question that I want to ask you. I wonder would you
25 show the lady number 45 (Same Handed), Exhibit 11?
26 Page 45 is a Windsor Nutrition Limited document.
27 This is a document in Guinness & Mahon and it is to
28 do with Windsor Nutrition. It has nothing to do
29 with you personally at all. However, as you are
63
1 here and as you are a Director to the company I am
2 going to ask you a question about it; that is all?
3 A. Yes .
4 387 Q. Apparently Windsor Nutrition Limited, which was a
5 pet food manufacturer which you had a connection
6 with, was borrowing money from Guinness & Mahon and
7 this I think is about 1987. However, this is only
8 one of a number of similar ones. Do not be hung
9 up on the 1987 aspect of it?
10 A. Right.
11 388 Q. It could be one of a number?
12 A. Okay.
13 389 Q. I am just using one as an example?
14 A. Yes .
15 390 Q. You can see in fact that it is a review which
16 means that there was an existing loan which they
17 were holding over or something. It was for
18 £100,000?
19 A. Yes .
20 391 Q. Did Windsor Nutrition Limited have in the 1980's
21 a borrowing with Guinness & Mahon?
22 A. No.
23 392 Q. I see.
24 A. Windsor -- the reason why I am looking at this is
25 because the Tribunal.
26 393 Q. Yes?
27 A. Gave Mr. McLoughlin -- it is not exactly the same
28 document.
29 394 Q. Yes?
1 A. But it had something to do with a £100,000
2 guarantee.
3 395 Q. I can give you five other documents to do with the
4 same thing?
5 A. Exactly, yes.
6 396 Q. They are almost the same?
7 A. In -- it must have been 1987. I thought it was
8 later quite truthfully. I thought it was 1988 or
9 1989.
10 397 Q. Yes?
11 A. Windsor Nutrition was the company which had the
12 largest bank account. In other words Windsor
13 Nutrition had an account with Northern Bank.
14 398 Q. Yes?
15 A. Whereas Merops (Nutrition) in Dublin would have had
16 a smaller account and Windsor Foods would have had a
17 smaller account. Windsor Nutrition was -- we were
18 moving the factory from the north of Ireland down
19 to the south of Ireland.
20 399 Q. Yes?
21 A. And were obviously going to adjust bank, various
22 bank, arrangements.
23 400 Q. Yes?
24 A. We had had some difficulties with Northern Bank
25 over the years; that the overdrafts went up beyond
26 the agreed facilities or whatever.
27 401 Q. Yes?
28 A. I can't remember the exact details but Mr. Traynor
29 said that Guinness & Mahon...(INTERJECTION).
65
1 402 Q. Yes?
2 A. Would guarantee £100,000 to the Northern Bank.
3 403 Q. Yes?
4 A. In other words we had a loan, I can't remember again
5 the details, with Northern Bank.
6 404 Q. If you actually -- if you read the document? I gave
7 you that document particularly because it gives all
8 that information. If you read there it says:
10 "We have been requested..."
11
12 "We" now being Guinness & Mahon?
13 A. Yes.
14 405 Q.
15
16 "...to provide the above guarantee..."
17
18 Which is £100,000?
19 A. Yes.
20 406 Q.
21
22 "...in respect of a facility being made

available to the company by Northern
23 Bank Limited. The facility is for
£350,000 however the guarantee states
24 that we shall not be liable for the
fist Stg £250,000. We hold funds
25 Stg £180,000 "Blocked" to cover the
guarantee."
26
27
28 A. I -- Windsor Nutrition had -- I don't know what that
29 means.
66
1 407 Q. Obviously some funds which were either owned by
2 Windsor Nutrition, which you tell me is unlikely?
3 A. Yes .
4 408 Q. Or which were owned by one or the Directors or
5 shareholders of it were being used to back the
6 £100,000 and do you know which?
7 A. I don't. I don't.
8 409 Q. However, some funds were been used to back the
9 £100,000?
10 A. Would this have been the fund which Mr. Traynor had;
11 is that... (INTERJECTION)?
12 410 Q. May be?
13 A. Is that it?
14 411 Q. May be, yes. Do you know anything about that?
15 A. No. I mean that is the only thing; that was
16 Mr. Traynor giving this guarantee on the basis that
17 Guinness -- that he had funds that he would take.
18 I don't know but Windsor Nutrition wouldn't be
19 the...(INTERJECTION).
20 412 Q. Yes, I understand what you say about that. However,
21 obviously some entity, and if you tell me it is
22 not Windsor Nutrition of course I accept that,
23 other than Windsor Nutrition was willing to give
24 a £100,000 guarantee to the company from funds
25 placed in some way off shore with Guinness & Mahon
26 because that is what adequately secured means. Do
27 you know who was giving that guarantee?
28 A. I don't.
29 413 Q. You do not. Fair enough. That is fine. That is

1 grand. Thank you very much indeed, Ms. Breen.
2 Thank you very much.
4 END OF EXAMINATION OF MS. BREEN BY JUDGE O'LEARY.
7 MS. MACKEY: Thank you, Ms. Breen. We
8 have not got any further
9 questions to ask you. If you would like to have a
10 cup of tea or coffee one is provided. You are more
11 than welcome to have one before you leave.
12
13 The only other thing we have to ask you to do is:
14 In due course the transcript will be typed up and
15 we do need to ask you to come back to sign it but
16 our solicitor will be in touch with you or your
17 solicitor to make an arrangement for you to come
18 and read it and sign it if you agree with it at your
19 convenience.
20 A. Yes. Excuse me? Was there something?
21 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes. I just wondered if
22 -- I just had a few pieces
23 of information to volunteer.
25 MS. CORRIGAN: You may find it helpful.
26 JUDGE O'LEARY: Certainly, certainly.
27 MS. CORRIGAN: Because Mr. McLoughlin did
28 discuss this issue with me
29 in his lifetime and it might help to clarify one or
68
1 two of the questions that you asked Ms. Breen; that
2 certainly, you know, Tom would have said -- given
3 information to me at meetings.
5 MS. CORRIGAN: And just very briefly the
6 background was as Barbara
7 mentioned. It was Des Traynor who approached him.
8 He didn't know Des Traynor at all well. Barbara
9 grew up next door to the Traynors or two doors down.
10 Mrs. Traynor baby-sat her as a child and knew her
11 very well. Then Barbara started to work in the
12 company and became a close personal friend with
13 Mr. McLoughlin.
14
15 Mr. McLoughlin had sold some shares in the early
16 1980's for a substantial sum of money and had used
17 the stock broking services of Guinness & Mahon to
18 do that.
19
20 He then shortly afterwards received an approach
21 from Des Traynor who rang him and asked him to meet
22 him in the Shelbourne Hotel, which he went and did,
23 and Mr. Traynor said that effectively on behalf --
24 almost like as if in loco parentis.
26 MS. CORRIGAN: He was asking for a fund
27 to be set aside for
28 Barbara because she had no pension and she had been
29 working in the company for 16 years.
69
1 MS. MACKEY: I think, Ms. Corrigan, you
2 wrote to us and you set
3 out all of this in the letter.
4 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes, but I
5 think...(INTERJECTION).
6 JUDGE 0'LEARY: And we have taken
7 it...(INTERJECTION).
8 MS. CORRIGAN: I think just in terms of
9 the questions that you
10 asked about tax: The fund that Mr. McLoughlin gave
11 to Des Traynor either had capital gains tax paid on
12 it or it was exempt ESR funds.
13 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
14 MS. CORRIGAN: So, the funds that he gave
15 him: There was no question
16 that tax had not been properly accounted for on the
17 funds.
18 MS. MACKEY: We understand that.
19 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes.
20 MS. MACKEY: No, I think
21 Judge O'Leary's
22 question was in relation to the interest.
23 MS. CORRIGAN: In relation to
24 the interest:
25 Tom McLoughlin's understanding was that Des Traynor,
26 being an accountant, would be looking after properly
27 all of the issues to do with any interest that was
28 earned on it.
29 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Sure...(INTERJECTION).
70
1 MS. CORRIGAN: He regarded him as
2 effectively a Trustee.
3 JUDGE 0'LEARY: How could that be the
4 case? Sure, Mr. Traynor
5 could not make a financial return for
6 Mr. McLoughlin.
7 MS. CORRIGAN: Well, as a Trustee.
8 JUDGE 0'LEARY: No, he could not
9 make...(INTERJECTION).
10 MS. CORRIGAN: He would be responsible as
11 a Trustee.
12 JUDGE 0'LEARY: He could not make the
13 annual returns for and on
14 behalf of Mr. McLoughlin.
15 JUDGE 0'LEARY: I would have to disagree,
16 Judge O'Leary, that as a
17 Trustee if you have a sum of money -- if I have --
18 if someone gives me a sum of money and as a Trustee
19 I invest it and I receive interest on it it is my
20 obligation under the Tax Acts to make a return of
21 interest.
22 MS. MACKEY: Is it your understanding
23 from Mr. McLoughlin that a
24 Trust was constituted?
25 MS. CORRIGAN: Well, that was — although
26 there was no formal
27 documentation.
28 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
29 MS. CORRIGAN: That is certainly how I
71
1 understood it and how I
2 understood it from speaking to Mr. McLoughlin was
3 that, as Barbara described it, it was effectively
4 a fund that, in my understanding, belonged to
5 Mr. McLoughlin unless something -- unless he died.
6 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
7 MS. CORRIGAN: In which case Barbara was
8 to have the benefit of
9 it...(INTERJECTION).
10 JUDGE O'LEARY: The one thing we know for
11 absolute certainty is that
12 Mr. Traynor exercised no control over the fund.
13 MS. CORRIGAN: Well...(INTERJECTION).
14 JUDGE O'LEARY: He paid out when he was
15 asked to pay out.
16 MS. CORRIGAN: I -- he —
17 I...(INTERJECTION).
18 JUDGE O'LEARY: I have heard enough thank
19 you. Thank you.
20 MR. LEYDEN: We are merely trying to be
21 helpful to you.
23 MR. LEYDEN: I mean if we give you the
24 information you can make
25 of it what you will.
27 MR. LEYDEN: However, if you are not
28 receptive that is fine.
29 JUDGE O'LEARY: We have got the
72
1 information in writing.
2 MS. CORRIGAN: Yes, I mean
3 I just... (INTERJECTION) .
4 JUDGE 0'LEARY: And we are — this
5 question of giving us
6 unsworn testimony...(INTERJECTION).
7 MS. CORRIGAN: I am quite happy
8 to...(INTERJECTION).
9 JUDGE 0'LEARY: If you want to give — if
10 you want to be called to
11 give evidence we will do that in due course but we
12 will do it in a formal way and not in this kind of
13 ad hoc way.
14 MR. LEYDEN: Clearly it is a matter for
15 yourselves. We are merely
16 trying to be helpful; that is all.
17 MS. MACKEY: No, we appreciate that.
18 Thank you very much.
19 Thank you.
20 MS. CORRIGAN: Okay. That is fine.
21 Thank you.
22 A. Thank you.
23 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Thank you very much
24 indeed. Thank you.
25
27
28
29
73
YDoJiU.v
G\
Appendix XV (170) Mr Francis Boland
Francis Boland.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Francis Boland dated 15 May 2000.
b) Letter of 22 March 2000from O'Flynn, Exhams & Partners to Inspectors.
c) The Lynbrette Trust Deed.
2. Correspondence written on behalf of Mr Francis Boland.
a) Letter of 20 August 2001from O'Flynn, Exhams & Partners to Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. FRANCIS J. BOLAND
UNDER OATH
ON MONDAY, 15TH MAY 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. FRANCIS J. BOLAND
Represented by: MR. FRANK 0'FLYNN
0'FLYNN EXHAMS
& PARTNERS SOLICITORS
5 8 SOUTH MALL
CORK
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. F. BOLAND MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON MONDAY
2 15TH MAY 2000:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Good morning Mr. Boland.
5 MR. BOLAND: Morning.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry for being a bit late
7 starting.
8 MR. BOLAND: Okay Chairman, Okay.
9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is Declan Costello
10 and on my right is
11 Ms. Mackey. We have been, as you know, appointed
12 Inspectors by The High Court to investigate the
13 affairs of the company.
14
15 I should explain to you, as we do to other persons
16 whom we ask to come for interview, that this is not
17 a Court. It is not a Tribunal. It is an interview.
18
19 If in the course of the questioning by me or by
20 Ms. Mackey you would like to take advice from your
21 solicitor please tell us so and we will stop asking
22 the questions.
23
24 Similarly, if Mr. O'Flynn thinks that he would like
25 to advise you in relation to any questions that we
26 ask, he can indicate that to us and we will stop and
27 he can then discuss the questions with you.
28
29 Mr. Boland, the evidence will be taken under oath
4
1 and I will ask now Ms. Cummins how to administer the
2 oath to you.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. FRANCIS J. BOLAND, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS
2 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Boland could we begin
5 by your recounting to us,
6 just briefly, your business experience and your
7 background in business?
8 A. Well, its a long story Chairman. I have never
9 worked for anybody in my life. I started in
10 business going to school and eventually set up my
11 own business -- set up as a sole trader. I set up
12 in the car and motor business and the parts business
13 and went into the rent-a-van business which
14 was...(INTERJECTION).
15 2 Q. The what?
16 A. The rent-a-van business.
17 3 Q. Yes?
18 A. Which was probably the most public looking one of my
19 enterprises that I was in.
20 4 Q. Yes?
21 A. Machinery business and I had a lot of involvements
22 all over. I had at one stage five operations in
23 Dublin. I had an operation in Randlestown in the
24 North of Ireland.
25 5 Q. Yes?
26 A. I had a business in Manchester.
27 6 Q. Yes?
28 A. I had a place in Limerick and I was in a myriad of
29 other businesses and so on and so forth. I was one
6
1 of the founder Directors of Cork Communications.
2 7 Q. Of?
3 A. Cork Communications in Cork.
4 8 Q. Yes?
5 A. And in Ivernia Exploration.
6 9 Q. Yes?
7 A. And I was at one stage a Director of
8 Beamish & Crawfords.
9 10 Q. Yes?
10 A. And over the years then I served in many State
11 bodies. I served on Aer Lingus and B&I. I was
12 Chairman of B&I.
13 11 Q. Yes?
14 A. And Chairman of AerRianta.
15 12 Q. Yes?
16 A. And I am presently Chairman of The Port Of Cork
17 Company.
18 13 Q. Yes. Thank you Mr. Boland. What I propose doing is
19 asking you some questions about the Lynbrett Trust
20 first?
21 A. Yes.
22 14 Q. The people that were involved with you in the
23 establishment of the Lynbrett Trust were, I think,
24 personal friends of yours, is that right?
26 15 Q. Yes. Would you tell me how you became involved in
27 it?
28 A. I just can recount, I think, that some deal came up
29 at some stage, you know, that there was an
7
1 opportunity in America to...(INTERJECTION).
2 16 Q. No, no. Mr. Boland, not as general as that. In
3 great detail now?
4 A. Yes.
5 17 Q. In great detail I want you to tell me who talked to
6 you first?
7 A. I couldn't honestly answer you Chairman.
8 18 Q. Which do you think? Who do you think?
9 A. I would say it was probably Collins, Neil Collins.
10 19 Q. Mr. Collins?
11 A. I would say but I couldn't swear to it Chairman.
12 20 Q. Yes. What did he tell you?
13 A. Well, that — just like that. I can't fully
14 recollect what he told me.
15 21 Q. No, of course, not the details but generally?
16 A. Generally that there was an opportunity to invest in
17 a real estate deal.
18 22 Q. Tell me more about it? What was the opportunity and
19 what was the deal?
20 A. The deal was that there was an operation in the
21 States, or a number of investors in the States, who
22 were interested.
23 23 Q. In what?
24 A. In an RV Park, it was known as. We would call them
25 caravan parks but this is a more sophisticated type
26 of operation.
27 24 Q. Yes?
28 A. And that there was an opportunity. They were
29 looking for overseas investors to join with them.
8
1 25 Q. Yes?
2 A. In promoting this idea and developing these
3 RV Parks.
4 26 Q. Yes?
5 A. And it went on from there Chairman. It
6 is...(INTERJECTION).
7 27 Q. Where was the park?
8 A. The park was in Arizona.
9 28 Q. Yes?
10 A. In a place called Apache Junction.
11 29 Q. Yes?
12 A. So, Apache was the operative word...(INTERJECTION).
13 30 Q. A suitable name for it?
14 A. A suitable name.
15 31 Q. Yes?
16 A. A very suitable name for it.
17 32 Q. Yes. Continue Mr. Boland?
18 A. And the deal was put together.
19 33 Q. By whom?
20 A. By -- I would say by Collins -- by -- we must have
21 all agreed to partake in it.
22 34 Q. Not, "we must have all". What was agreed Mr. Boland
23 and who agreed and where and when?
24 A. Well, I agreed. I understand...(INTERJECTION).
25 35 Q. With who?
26 A. With Collins.
27 36 Q. And who else?
28 A. And with Coveney.
29 37 Q. Mr. Coveney?
9
1 A. And with Mr. Love.
2 38 Q. Mr. Love?
3 A. And with Mr. Dineen.
4 39 Q. Yes. Did you meet the American people involved?
5 A. I did meet -- there was one of the American people
6 who was quite well known to me.
7 40 Q. Who was that?
8 A. Mr. Cummins.
9 41 Q. Yes. Tell me what Mr. Cummins told you?
10 A. Well, Mr. Cummins was originally from Kinsale and
11 how I -- that is how I knew him. He used to come to
12 Kinsale on holiday.
13 42 Q. Yes?
14 A. I think that himself and Mr. Collins and a guy
15 by the name of Keith Smith, who was a friend
16 of Cummins.
17 43 Q. Yes?
18 A. He was the driving force behind this thing.
19 44 Q. Yes?
20 A. Mr. Cummins seemed to have been quite happy with
21 the project per say.
22 45 Q. Yes. However, just tell me did you meet
23 Mr. Cummins?
24 A. I did meet... (INTERJECTION) .
25 46 Q. About this?
26 A. I did meet Mr. Cummins, yes.
27 47 Q. What did he tell you?
28 A. That he was quite happy with the project and
29 quite...(INTERJECTION).
10
1 48 Q. What was he -- tell me what he told you the project
2 was?
3 A. That it was an RV Park and an investment in the
4 thing, to build and develop, to get this land and
5 get it zoned, and develop these RV lots per say.
6 4 9 Q. Did he tell you how much he thought would be
7 involved?
8 A. Not specifically, I don't think at the time.
9 50 Q. No. However, generally he must have talked. He
10 must have talked to you generally?
11 A. I am sure that he did but Chairman I honestly
12 couldn't swear exactly what the man said to me. It
13 is twenty years ago.
14 51 Q. Yes. Did Mr. Cummins come to you with Mr. Collins
15 or did he come to you alone first, do you remember?
16 A. I don't. I can't honestly remember about it.
17 52 Q. You remember meeting him at any rate?
18 A. I do because I knew Mr. Cummins fairly well.
19 53 Q. Yes?
20 A. And he used to come to Kinsale on holidays.
21 54 Q. Yes. Do you remember when this was?
22 A. Well, it must have been around 1980 because that
23 is...(INTERJECTION).
24 55 Q. Why do you think it must have been around about
25 1980?
26 A. Because it looks like that that is when the deal
27 commenced per say.
28 56 Q. Why do you say "it looks like that" Mr. Boland?
29 What -- we know for example that the Trust was
11
1 set up in 1981 and the loan was made by the AIB
2 in 1981?
3 A. Yes .
4 57 Q. How do you -- can you remember when he first came to
5 you?
6 A. I can't. No, no. I cannot remember Chairman.
7 58 Q. Mr. Boland, did you have any professional advice in
8 relation to this?
9 A. No, not really, no.
10 59 Q. What do you mean "not really"?
11 A. Well, only my own. I was -- technically I am a bit
12 of a wheeler dealer in my own right, and always have
13 been, and I would go on steers and gut feelings and
14 I felt... (INTERJECTION) .
15 60 Q. Yes. However, you need -- you are a very successful
16 businessman but successful businessmen need
17 professional help?
18 A. I would agree, yes. I would agree.
19 61 Q. Did you go to a solicitor?
20 A. I didn't go to a solicitor, no.
21 62 Q. Did you have your own solicitor then? Who was
22 looking after your private affairs for example?
23 Twenty years ago, it may be difficult to remember.
24 However, was it the same solicitor you now have?
25 A. At the time I can't remember who looked after my
26 private affairs. Ronan Daly Hayes did some of my
27 business.
28 63 Q. Yes?
29 A. Coackley Maloney did some of my business.
12
1 64 Q. Yes?
2 A. But I didn't.
4 A. I didn't seek any advice which...(INTERJECTION).
5 66 Q. What about an accountant? Did you seek any
6 assistance from an accountant?
7 A. Unfortunately I didn't.
9 A. No, no.
10 68 Q. Did you have your own accountant looking after
11 your...(INTERJECTION)?
12 A. Craig Gardners.
13 69 Q. They were looking after...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. All my ...(INTERJECTION).
15 70 Q. Were they looking after your personal affairs?
16 A. Yes.
17 71 Q. Yes. You did not go to anybody then?
18 A. I didn't unfortunately. If I had, Chairman, I would
19 have structured my deal correctly.
20 72 Q. Yes.
21 A. Because I wound up with this total loss
22 which...(INTERJECTION).
23 73 Q. We will come to that later?
24 A. Yes.
25 74 Q. Your position is that you cannot remember when
26 Mr. Cummins came to you?
27 A. Strictly speaking, no. I mean I couldn't swear to
28 when he came to me Chairman.
29 75 Q. No, I am not -- I understand that. It was twenty
13
1 years ago?
2 A. Yes.
3 7 6 Q. However, you must have had some correspondence about
4 this?
5 A. I am sure that there was a -- there was some
6 correspondence I am sure, or some requests, or phone
7 requests or whatever it was.
8 77 Q. Are you suggesting that this whole transaction went
9 on over the phone?
10 A. I am not suggesting but like I can't recollect with
11 my having taken an oath as to how exactly it went on
12 Chairman.
13 78 Q. Not actually?
14 A. No.
15 79 Q. However, is it not likely that there was some
16 correspondence?
17 A. I am sure there was.
18 80 Q. There was. Yes?
19 A. Because there was a...(INTERJECTION).
20 81 Q. With whom do you think there was correspondence?
21 A. Well, there was correspondence definitely from
22 AIB Bank.
23 82 Q. Yes. I would have thought so, is that not right
24 Mr. Boland?
26 83 Q. The Bank would have been in touch with you?
27 A. Yes, yes.
28 84 Q. Which bank was that?
29 A. AIB Bank in 66 South Mall. I signed a guarantee for
14
1 them Chairman.
2 85 Q. Yes. There was correspondence then with the
3 Cork Branch of AIB about a guarantee?
5 8 6 Q. Would you tell me about the guarantee and what was
6 agreed?
7 A. Well, I agreed to sign a guarantee. I was asked to
8 go to 66 South Mall and I signed a guarantee.
9 87 Q. Yes?
10 A. And I know that I broke every rule in the book in
11 signing a joint and several because I had always
12 made it my business -- at one stage in my career
13 with some bank I was caught with a joint and several
14 guarantee.
15 88 Q. Just tell me about the...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. And I said I would never again sign one.
17 89 Q. Tell me what was the guarantee about?
18 A. The guarantee was joint and several guarantee
19 between myself and the other people who were
20 involved in the project.
21 90 Q. What was it?
22 A. It was for US$2.77m I think.
23 91 Q. You were guaranteeing the repayment of that?
24 A. Yes.
25 92 Q. Jointly and severally?
26 A. Jointly and severally, yes.
27 93 Q. The guarantee was for what Mr. Boland? What was
28 happening? What were you guaranteeing?
29 A. It was money to finance this project.
15
1 94 Q. Yes. However, who was lending the money?
2 A. AIB Bank.
3 95 Q. In New York?
4 A. Well, I don't whether it was.
5 96 Q. Do you not know?
6 A. I don't know whether it was -- more than likely it
7 was New York but it was...(INTERJECTION).
8 97 Q. Mr. Boland, do you not know that you were sued by
9 the New York Bank?
10 A. Well, I am -- what I am trying to say Chairman, I
11 don't know who was borrowing -- sending -- lending
12 the money. Was it 66 South Mall or New York?
13 98 Q. However, do you not know that you were giving the
14 guarantee to New York?
15 A. Well, if I did I did.
16 99 Q. No, no. I am asking you a question Mr. Boland?
17 A. I don't know because I signed...(INTERJECTION).
18 100 Q. No, wait now. Wait now. Are you telling
19 me...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. Chairman, I signed...(INTERJECTION).
21 101 Q. Mr. Boland, wait a minute. Are you telling me that
22 you do not know the name of the bank with whom you
23 gave a guarantee for $2.775m?
24 A. AIB Bank.
25 102 Q. Yes. Which Branch of the AIB bank?
26 A. Well, I signed...(INTERJECTION).
27 103 Q. Which corporate entity?
28 A. I signed the guarantee Chairman inside in 66 South
29 Mall.
16
1 104 Q. I know that. Are you telling me that you do not
2 know that you were guaranteed a loan by the New York
3 Branch of the AIB?
4 A. Well, I knew at the time I presume, yes.
5 105 Q. Why did you not tell me that?
6 A. Well, I am not -- I am trying to say that I don't
7 know who was the forwarder of the money per say, was
8 it AIB in 66 South Mall?
9 106 Q. I did not ask you that. I asked you who you signed
10 the guarantee with. Is it not clear you signed it
11 with the New York Branch of AIB?
12 A. Well, I signed it in 66 South Mall.
13 107 Q. However, I will ask you the question again: Do you
14 know who you signed the guarantee with?
15 A. Well, it was AIB New York were involved in
16 forwarding the money or providing the money .
17 108 Q. Does that mean that you think you signed it with
18 AIB New York?
19 A. Well, its not a case -- all I am trying to make the
20 point is that I signed it in Cork, probably on
21 behalf...(INTERJECTION).
22 109 Q. However, that is not -- you are making that point
23 Mr. Boland. I am asking you to answer the question.
24 Who sued you?
25 A. AIB Bank.
26 110 Q. Which? Of where?
27 A. Of -- probably the New York Branch.
28 111 Q. Probably the New York Branch?
29 A. Yes.
17
1 112 Q. Tell me what you understood then, that the New York
2 Branch was lending money to whom?
3 A. Was lending money to this Apache project.
4 113 Q. To whom?
5 A. Roadhaven.
6 114 Q. However, who was it lending the money to?
7 A. It was lending it to Lynbrett.
8 115 Q. Lynbrett?
9 A. Yes.
10 116 Q. Yes. I think, am I correct Mr. Boland, that the
11 Lynbrett was then lending it on to this company?
13 117 Q. What was the name of the company?
14 A. Roadhaven.
15 118 Q. Yes?
16 A. Resorts.
17 119 Q. Yes. In addition to the loan, which was being given
18 by the New York Bank, where you required to put up a
19 sum yourself?
20 A. I was, yes.
21 120 Q. How much were you required to put up?
22 A. Too -- well, it eventually wound up at US$212,000
23 Chairman.
24 121 Q. US$212,000?
25 A. Yes.
26 122 Q. This was a share of which you had to pay?
28 123 Q. I think, we understanding from Mr. Coveney's
29 statement, that the figure was US$950,000?
18
2 124 Q. Your share of that was US$212,500?
3 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes, that is correct.
4 125 Q. Could you tell me how you raised that money, from
5 where and when?
6 A. Well, I have -- the best recollection I have
7 Chairman is that I paid it out from the UK.
8 126 Q. Yes?
9 A. From shares that I disposed of.
10 127 Q. Just tell me what you did? You must have some
11 record of what happened?
12 A. Well, I had shares in the United Kingdom which I
13 sold, which were...(INTERJECTION).
14 128 Q. When you said you had shares in the United Kingdom,
15 was this in a -- you had shares in a United Kingdom
16 company, is that what you are saying?
17 A. In a United Kingdom company, yes.
18 129 Q. You had shares in a United Kingdom company?
19 A. Yes.
20 130 Q. What was the name of that company you had shares in?
21 A. United Dominions Trust.
22 131 Q. United Dominions Trust?
23 A. Yes.
24 132 Q. Did you instruct your stockbroker then to sell
25 shares to give you US$212,500?
26 A. I doubt it. I doubt it.
27 133 Q. What did you do?
28 A. Well, I would say that I probably sold the shares
29 and as far as I know I sold the shares and I had
19
1 bought some UK stocks.
2 134 Q. Yes?
3 A. This was all part of an investigation with the
4 Revenue and that is how I know that these shares --
5 and I did inform the Revenue that this money went
6 into this US venture and that was in
7 19...(INTERJECTION).
8 135 Q. You are not answering the question Mr. Boland. The
9 question is: How did you raise the US$212,500?
10 A. By the sale of -- well, some of it was by the sale
11 of shares I imagine.
12 136 Q. You are under oath. You are not to imagine.
13 You are to give me evidence. Now Mr. Boland,
14 am I ... (INTERJECTION) ?
15 A. Chairman, I am very much aware that I am under oath.
16 137 Q. Would you try to...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. And...(INTERJECTION).
18 138 Q. If you cannot recollect tell me so?
19 A. Well, I can't recollect exactly.
20 139 Q. No, I am not asking for exactly. I am asking you
21 how you raised US$212,500?
22 A. I would say that the bulk of it was from the sale of
23 securities in the UK.
24 140 Q. You told me about the United Dominions Trust
25 securities ?
26 A. Yes, yes.
27 141 Q. You think you sold other securities?
28 A. No, I -- to my -- I had sold some United Dominions
29 Trust shares and bought some English bonds or
20
1 English Government Stocks.
2 142 Q. Yes?
3 A. Which I sold.
4 143 Q. You sold?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 144 Q. Yes, I see?
7 A. Yes, and...(INTERJECTION).
8 145 Q. So it was from your own resources?
9 A. From my own resources.
10 146 Q. In the United Kingdom?
11 A. In the United Kingdom.
12 147 Q. Yes?
13 A. And possibly some of my resources in Ireland
14 but...(INTERJECTION).
15 148 Q. What is your recollection?
16 A. My recollection is that the bulk of it Chairman came
17 from my sale of my shares in the United kingdom.
18 149 Q. And some of them may have come by sale of shares,
19 was it, here in Ireland?
20 A. No, I would have had monies of my own at that time,
21 you know.
22 150 Q. Monies of your own but where, on deposit?
23 A. Well, probably in my business or, you know, I didn't
24 keep -- I used to use what money I had even
25 personally in my business, you know.
26 151 Q. You may have taken money from your business for this
27 purpose?
28 A. I could have, yes.
29 152 Q. Have you any record of this?
21
1 A. No, not now, no.
2 153 Q. When you say "not now", you had a record? You had a
3 record of...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. Well, there would have been records at that stage,
5 yes.
6 154 Q. Yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 155 Q. For example there would have been a record of the
9 payment, would there not?
10 A. The payment of?
11 156 Q. The payment of the US$212,500?
12 A. Well, I know that it is was put in because I paid my
13 share.
14 157 Q. When did you pay it?
15 A. I can't recollect.
16 158 Q. I ... (INTERJECTION) ?
17 A. I don't know Chairman.
18 159 Q. I will come back to the question?
19 A. Yes.
20 160 Q. There would have been a record of that payment,
21 would there not?
22 A. There would have been, yes.
23 161 Q. How would it have been paid?
24 A. Well, I presume, and that is all I can say, is that
25 I was asked to put up money, monies.
26 162 Q. How would it have been paid Mr. Boland?
27 A. By -- I presume by draft.
28 163 Q. By draft?
29 A. Because it was a dollar.
22
1 164 Q. Yes?
2 A. It was a dollar call per say.
3 165 Q. Yes. You would have got a draft?
4 A. Yes.
5 166 Q. For US$212,500?
6 A. No, it was paid in tranches Chairman.
7 167 Q. Yes?
8 A. Because as far as I know my first involvement in
9 this venture was that we wouldn't have to put in as
10 much money, I think.
11 168 Q. I will just come back. Listen to the question I am
12 asking?
13 A. Yes.
14 169 Q. The question is: When was the first tranche paid?
15 A. Well, I have a letter from your good selves to say
16 that there was US$50,000...(INTERJECTION).
17 170 Q. No, no, do not bother about that. I am asking for
18 your recollection?
19 A. My recollection is that it was paid in 1980/81.
20 171 Q. However, how was the first tranche paid?
21 A. By -- I presume by a dollar draft.
22 172 Q. Why do you presume? Can you not remember how it
23 was paid?
24 A. Because it was a draft payment Chairman.
25 173 Q. It was a draft?
26 A. Yes.
27 174 Q. And...(INTERJECTION).
28 A. It was a dollar payment, sorry, Chairman.
29 175 Q. Yes. You presume it was a dollar draft?
23
1 A. Yes, I presume so, yes.
2 176 Q. Did you...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. Because it was the only way I could pay it Chairman.
4 177 Q. Who did you send it on to?
5 A. I must have given it to Guinness & Mahon.
6 178 Q. No, no, I am not asking you what you must have done.
7 Can you remember?
8 A. I don't know who I sent it to.
9 179 Q. You do not know?
10 A. I don't know Chairman.
11 180 Q. You do not know who you sent it on to. How many
12 tranches of the US$212,500 were there?
13 A. My recollection is that there was three or four
14 payments in total.
15 181 Q. Three or four payments?
16 A. Yes, but I can't -- that is only a recollection
17 Chairman.
18 182 Q. Yes?
19 A. I want to be careful.
20 183 Q. Yes?
21 A. Because I am not certain.
22 184 Q. Who were they paid to?
23 A. Well, they were either paid to Guinness & Mahon or
24 to AIB Bank.
25 185 Q. In New York?
26 A. In New York, yes, but they could have been paid
27 Chairman to AIB Bank in the South Mall for
28 transmission to New York.
29 186 Q. I see. However, the arrangement was that you were
24
1 to pay the New York Branch this figure?
3 187 Q. Yes. The New York Branch of AIB was to get this sum
4 from you, is that right?
5 A. Well, I am not sure whether it was the Cayman Trust
6 or Guinness & Mahon was to get it or who got it
7 Chairman.
8 188 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. I can't answer you. I don't know.
10 189 Q. I find it strange Mr. Boland that this is a
11 substantial sum of money and you cannot remember
12 who you paid it to?
13 A. I know that I paid it into this venture Chairman.
14 190 Q. No, I know that?
15 A. I know that.
16 191 Q. Yes. However, that is...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. But the mechanics...(INTERJECTION).
18 192 Q. Mr. Boland that is not the question I am asking you.
19 I am asking you: Who did you pay this sum to? Was
20 it to Lynbrett Trust? Was it to the AIB Bank in
21 New York?
22 A. Well, what bank it was paid to, it was more than
23 likely -- it was more than likely the Lynbrett Trust
24 that it was paid to.
25 193 Q. Yes?
26 A. But through what conduit it went Chairman I can't
27 answer you. I would have got a request to pay
28 another tranche of money or whatever it was at the
29 time.
1 194 Q. Who would you have got the request from?
2 A. More than likely from Collins, more than likely.
3 195 Q. Yes?
4 A. But like that again I can't swear to it Chairman. I
5 am being very careful.
6 196 Q. Yes?
7 A. I just cannot recollect what happened twenty years
8 ago.
9 197 Q. Yes?
10 A. All I have of this whole venture is bad memories.
11 MR. O'FLYNN: May I intervene for one
12 moment?
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.
14 A. Chairman, I had a very very serious accident
15 in 1977.
16 198 Q. Yes?
17 A. So -- which had me technically out of business for
18 about eighteen months and seriously impaired in a
19 lot of ways.
20 199 Q. In 1977 you had an accident?
21 A. 1977, yes.
22 200 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION).
23 A. So, it did affect a lot of my memory on a lot of
24 things regarding this. I was laid up. I was in
25 hospital for the guts of twelve months.
26 201 Q. Yes. I just want you to tell me what happened to
27 the records about this whole transaction?
28 A. Well, I don't have any records recording the
29 transaction Chairman because I paid off -- I paid
26
1 my last tranche of money on my indebtedness and
2 the indebtedness of one of my colleagues last
3 February twelve months.
4 202 Q. Yes?
5 A. Now I ... (INTERJECTION) .
6 203 Q. The question I am asking you Mr. Boland is about the
7 records. What became of the records in relation to
8 this?
9 A. Well, I had very little records Chairman.
10 204 Q. What became of the records Mr. Boland?
11 A. Well, I presume over the years...(INTERJECTION).
12 205 Q. Pardon?
13 A. Over the years I wouldn't have kept them Chairman.
14 206 Q. You destroyed them, did you?
15 A. I would have, yes, yes.
16 207 Q. Would you not have given them to your solicitor?
17 A. No, I didn't have any reason to.
18 208 Q. Were you not sued?
19 A. I was sued, yes.
20 209 Q. What happened about the action in New York?
21 A. Well, we -- all we had to do was pay up Chairman.
22 210 Q. I wonder is that right. Did you not have a
23 High Court action and was it not settled?
24 A. It was settled.
25 211 Q. Sorry, an action in the American Courts, was it not?
26 A. It was, yes, but we hadn't any -- I hadn't any input
27 or any input into that action regarding -- they had
28 a record of what monies I had in it at that stage
29 Chairman.
27
1 212 Q. Who were your attorneys or solicitors?
2 A. I can't...(INTERJECTION).
3 213 Q. I must ask you to try Mr. Boland.
4 A. Yes.
5 214 Q. Who did you -- you must have been very concerned
6 with been sued for over $2m, nearly $3m?
7 A. That is right.
8 215 Q. Did you go to an Irish solicitor?
9 A. No, no.
10 216 Q. Not at all?
11 A. No.
12 217 Q. Who did you go to?
13 A. Well, I didn't handle it.
14 218 Q. Who did you go to?
15 A. There was -- people in New York were retained.
16 219 Q. What was the name of the firm Mr. Boland?
17 A. I can't recollect but I can get it Chairman.
18 220 Q. Would you get it?
19 A. I can get it, yes, certainly.
20 221 Q. Did they ask you for any documents?
21 A. No.
22 222 Q. You did not give them any documents?
23 A. No, they knew what the...(INTERJECTION).
24 223 Q. Sorry, just listen to the question Mr. Boland?
25 A. No, Chairman, I didn't give them any documents.
27 A. No.
28 225 Q. Whatever documents you had were not given to any
29 professional advisors?
28
1 A. No, Chairman.
2 226 Q. And you think you destroyed them?
3 A. I didn't have any documentation to give them
4 Chairman.
5 227 Q. You think you destroyed the other documents?
6 A. Any correspondence, if you care to call it, that I
7 had I wouldn't have kept.
8 228 Q. Yes. When did you destroy them?
9 A. I wouldn't -- it would be just a matter of course
10 and I would purge.
11 229 Q. What about the last payment that you made?
12 A. I would have -- I have all the history of my
13 payments to the Bank.
14 230 Q. Sorry?
15 A. I have the history of my payments to the Bank.
16 231 Q. What do you mean the history of the payments?
17 A. Well, I have -- I would have -- I know actually when
18 I paid them.
19 232 Q. No. What documents?
20 A. I would have the...(INTERJECTION).
21 233 Q. Is the word you are seeking...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. Acknowledgments Chairman.
23 234 Q. Is the word you are seeking "correspondence"?
24 A. Sorry?
25 235 Q. Was the word you are seeking "correspondence"?
26 A. Correspondence?
27 236 Q. Yes?
28 A. I would have the acknowledgement of the payments.
29 237 Q. Sorry, would you have correspondence?
29
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 238 Q. What?
3 A. Yes.
4 239 Q. Is the answer "yes"?
5 A. Yes.
6 240 Q. Yes. Have you destroyed your correspondence with
7 the AIB Bank, the last payment you made about a year
8 ago?
9 A. No.
10 241 Q. You have that correspondence?
11 A. Yes.
12 242 Q. The correspondence with that Bank is relating to
13 your indebtedness?
14 A. My indebtedness to them.
15 243 Q. To them, yes?
16 A. Yes.
17 244 Q. That file of correspondence, how far does that go
18 back?
19 A. It would go back to my first payment. Well, it is
20 not a file. It is may be six or eight letters
21 Chairman.
22 245 Q. Yes?
23 A. It is -- I particularly wanted to keep that because
24 I paid...(INTERJECTION).
25 246 Q. No, just the question is: How far does the
26 correspondence go back?
27 A. I will try and explain to you Chairman. It would go
28 back to my payment, my first payment, after our
29 settlement with the Bank.
30
1 247 Q. Yes. Who...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Which would be -- I think Chairman you have a copy
3 of the settlement agreement.
4 248 Q. Who is the correspondence with?
5 A. It would be an acknowledgement from 66 South Mall.
6 249 Q. Who is the correspondence with?
7 A. AIB, 66 South Mall.
8 250 Q. Yes?
9 A. Acknowledging my payments.
10 251 Q. Yes?
11 A. And what I am trying to explain Chairman is that I
12 would have paid my share and waited for a demand for
13 the share of my colleague under the guarantee.
14 252 Q. I take it you would not have any objection
15 Mr. Boland to giving us such correspondence that you
16 have in relation to that?
17 A. No problem.
18 253 Q. Yes?
19 A. No problem.
20 254 Q. And any other correspondence that you have in
21 relation to the Lynbrett Trust?
22 A. No problem.
23 255 Q. Yes. Very well. Can you assist us in relation
24 to the lodgement of £50,000 in 1980 to the US
25 Dollar account of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust in
26 Guinness & Mahon & Company, the London bank?
27 A. I can't Chairman. That is $50,000 I think you said
28 in your correspondence.
29 256 Q. Yes. Sorry, if I said pounds I was wrong?
31
1 A. Yes.
2 257 Q. $50,000?
3 A. Yes, all I can say is that -- all I can not say or
4 all I can recollect is that it must have come from
5 my funds in the UK.
6 258 Q. Just so that I understand what your evidence is,
7 have you any recollection of making a payment of
8 $50,000?
9 A. None.
10 259 Q. None?
11 A. None, but I did put in $50,000 Chairman.
12 260 Q. Yes?
13 A. Yes.
14 261 Q. I just want to get clear what your evidence is
15 Mr. Boland. Your evidence is that you have no
16 recollection. I take you mean that you did not put
17 in $50,000?
18 A. No, I did put in $50,000.
19 262 Q. No. You did not lodge $50,000 as far as you were
20 personally concerned into the US dollar account of
21 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust in London?
22 A. Well, I put in $50,000 into the America project if I
23 may call it that.
24 263 Q. No. If you would just listen to the question?
25 A. Yes.
26 264 Q. Am I to understand your evidence, is that you did
27 not lodge that money into the account?
28 A. I can't recollect Chairman.
29 265 Q. May you have then?
32
1 A. I could have, yes. I would have...(INTERJECTION).
2 266 Q. Sorry. Just stop?
3 A. Sorry Chairman.
4 267 Q. I must stop you Mr. Boland?
5 A. Sorry.
6 268 Q. You could have lodged $50,000 into the
7 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust in London?
8 A. I would say that I obtained a draft Chairman and
9 passed it on to somebody for my American project.
11 A. The mechanics of where it was lodged I cannot on
12 oath Chairman know how it was done.
13 270 Q. No. However, what is your recollection?
14 A. I don't have a recollection Chairman.
15 271 Q. However, have you any recollection of where the
16 money -- you got a draft you say -- where you sent
17 it?
18 A. I can't recollect. I am only assuming I got a draft
19 Chairman.
20 272 Q. No, no. You cannot recollect you got a draft?
21 A. Well, Chairman I must have because it was recorded
22 after that I put in, in total, $212,000.
23 273 Q. I just want to get your evidence. You cannot
24 recollect getting a draft?
25 A. No.
26 274 Q. You cannot recollect who you paid this sum to?
27 A. No, Chairman.
28 275 Q. You have no recollection of sending the money to
29 London?
33
1 A. No recollection, Chairman.
2 276 Q. You have no recollect whether you sent it to New
3 York?
4 A. No recollection at all.
5 277 Q. You have no recollection whether you sent it to the
6 AIB Bank in Cork?
7 A. No.
8 278 Q. Mr. Boland, I think we will adjourn now if that is
9 all right with you, for a cup of coffee for about
10 ten minutes?
11 A. Okay.
12 279 Q. If you would like to stay here we can give you a cup
13 of coffee?
14 A. Okay.
15 280 Q. And we will return then?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
19
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will resume Mr. Boland.
21 Ms. Mackey has some
22 further questions to ask you.
23 A. Thank you.
24 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. BOLAND BY MR. JUSTICE
25 COSTELLO
26
27
28
29
34
1 MR. BOLAND WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY:
3 281 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Boland, I just wanted
4 to ask you some questions
5 about the Lynbrett Trust itself and your own actual
6 involvement in it and what you know about it and so
7 on.
8 A. Yes.
9 282 Q. You were explaining to us earlier that you were
10 first approached about this project probably by Mr.
11 Collins, you were not certain but you think it might
12 have been Mr. Collins. Who was the first person
13 who told you about the structure and about the
14 Lynbrett Trust and its associated companies?
15 A. I honestly can't remember.
16 283 Q. Can you recollect hearing about it from somebody?
17 A. Well, I definitely heard about it from somebody but
18 from whom I can't tell you.
19 284 Q. Right. Can you remember what you heard about it?
20 What you were told?
21 A. I can't.
22 285 Q. Can you not remember anything at all?
23 A. I cannot, no.
24 286 Q. You cannot?
25 A. I can't, no.
26 287 Q. May be I can assist you a little bit. You can
27 remember, I am sure, that there were five companies
28 established?
35
1 288 Q. Within this trust?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 289 Q. Can you recollect which company you were associated
4 with?
5 A. I had one company which was called Medford.
6 290 Q. Your company was Medford.
7 A. Yes.
8 2 91 Q. Do you know or did you know at the time where
9 Medford was registered?
10 A. I would say I did. I would say I did, yes, that it
11 was in Cayman.
12 2 92 Q. It was a Cayman company?
13 A. Yes.
14 293 Q. Why was the company registered in the Caymans rather
15 than in Ireland?
16 A. This was part of the deal why we were approached, is
17 my understanding of it.
18 294 Q. Yes?
19 A. Is that the US investors wanted -- this was all put
20 together, is my understanding.
21 295 Q. Yes?
22 A. To facilitate the US investors.
23 296 Q. Yes.
24 A. And it was to do with compliance with US tax law.
25 297 Q. In what way was it necessary for you for tax
26 purposes that the company be a Cayman company?
27 A. I can't answer you that. I haven't an idea.
28 298 Q. Was it explained to you then how the Trust would
29 operate and how each of you would benefit in some
36
1 way from this Trust? What was your understanding of
2 it?
3 A. My understanding was that I was to get a share of
4 the profits of this venture.
5 299 Q. Yes?
6 A. Now, regarding the Trust and all of that, I don't
7 have any recollection of that being of any advantage
8 to us .
9 300 Q. How were you to get the share? How was the share to
10 come to you, of the share of the profits?
11 A. It was in the washout of the deal, whatever was left
12 we had a percentage to get.
13 301 Q. However, was it to come to you personally or to this
14 company Medford?
15 A. It was to come to me personally I presume. I am
16 only making a presumption. That is all I can say.
17 302 Q. What was your understanding of the role of Medford
18 in this?
19 A. It was -- my understanding of the role of Medford
20 and Lynbrett was that it was a vehicle to facilitate
21 the US investors.
22 303 Q. No, no. Medford specifically because Medford was
23 your company, is that not right?
24 A. I presumed that that was to keep us separated, our
25 shareholdings.
26 304 Q. To keep your shareholdings separate?
27 A. Separated, I presume it was, yes.
28 305 Q. Did Medford then hold your shares in the company?
29 A. I can't answer you. I never had any recollection of
37
1 anybody. All I know is that I personally paid for
2 my share.
3 306 Q. Right. What did you get as a result of that, what
4 documentation?
5 A. I got nothing. I didn't because I had arguments
6 with -- well, not arguments. I had discussion with
7 the Revenue after.
8 307 Q. Yes?
9 A. Trying to get a tax rebate per say, which I will
10 refer to in a minute because I would like to put on
11 the record what I did with the Revenue.
12 308 Q. Yes?
13 A. Trying to get my rebate offsets.
14 309 Q. Yes?
15 A. And I was informed it was a loan and I wasn't
16 entitled. It wasn't a capital loss, I was advised
17 by the Revenue and my tax people.
18 310 Q. Did you receive any statements of the affairs of
19 Medford?
20 A. No.
21 311 Q. No?
22 A. No.
23 312 Q. Going back to the setting up of this, you explained
24 to us that you got no advice, you sought no
25 financial advice. Who told you that this company
26 Medford would be set up, and it would be your
27 company? What were you told about it?
28 A. I can't honestly answer you.
29 313 Q. Did you have discussions at that time apart from
38
1 discussions with your fellow investors? Did you
2 have discussions with Guinness & Mahon?
3 A. I have no recollection. I have none. No
4 recollection.
5 314 Q. At that time were you yourself in any
6 relationship with Guinness & Mahon? Did you
7 know Guinness & Mahon or anybody there?
8 A. I knew Guinness & Mahon.
9 315 Q. Yes. How did you come to know Guinness & Mahon?
10 A. I did a vast amount of business with
11 Guinness & Mahon with my firm in Cork.
12 316 Q. Yes?
13 A. In Cork in particular.
14 317 Q. Yes?
15 A. With the Cork office of Guinness & Mahon.
16 318 Q. Yes.
17 A. And I got a copy of all that documentation. I think
18 it was made available to you and really it had to do
19 — we used to buy all our...(INTERJECTION).
20 319 Q. You had a relationship with Guinness & Mahon going
21 back quite some time prior to any of this?
22 A. I would say so. I haven't looked at the dates.
23 320 Q. Right?
24 A. I would say I had.
25 321 Q. Who specifically did you know in Guinness & Mahon or
26 deal with?
27 A. We used to deal at that time with a man by the name
28 of Howard, in Cork.
29 322 Q. Howard?
39
1 A. And then he died.
2 323 Q. Yes?
3 A. And a man by the name of Dominic Long, who was with
4 him until they closed down in Cork.
5 324 Q. Did you know any of the personnel of
6 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
7 A. I knew Des Traynor.
8 325 Q. You knew Des Traynor?
9 A. Yes.
10 326 Q. When did you come to know Des Traynor?
11 A. I can't answer you that. I don't exactly know.
12 327 Q. How did you know?
13 A. I would have met him. I would have met him socially
14 with Clayton Love.
15 328 Q. Did you know of his involvement
16 with Guinness & Mahon in the Cayman Islands?
17 A. I knew of his involvement with Guinness & Mahon,
18 yes.
19 329 Q. However, did you know of his involvement with
20 Guinness & Mahon in Cayman?
21 A. Not really. It wasn't...(INTERJECTION).
22 330 Q. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
23 A. It wasn't, no. It wasn't really of any concern to
24 me.
25 331 Q. However, had you heard of it?
26 A. I have heard of it. I have now read it in all the
27 papers.
28 332 Q. Did you know then?
29 A. I can't recollect. I can't recollect.
40
1 333 Q. Did you meet Mr. Traynor frequently on a social
2 basis?
3 A. No, no.
4 334 Q. Did you have business dealings with Mr. Traynor?
5 A. No, no.
6 335 Q. Never?
7 A. No.
8 336 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Traynor in
9 relation to the Lynbrett Trust?
10 A. I can't recollect honestly.
11 337 Q. Is it possible that you did?
12 A. I doubt I did. I doubt I did.
13 338 Q. In relation to the Lynbrett Trust Mr. Boland your
14 evidence, if I can summarise it, is that you cannot
15 remember who told you about it. You know that one
16 of the companies under the Trust, a Cayman company
17 called Medford, was your company but you are not
18 sure what purpose it served for you?
19 A. Yes.
20 339 Q. Other than to hold shares?
21 A. Yes.
22 340 Q. You do not know -- you were to get a share of the
23 profits but you are not sure how that was to come to
24 you?
25 A. Yes.
26 341 Q. You never received any statement of affairs of the
27 company Medford. Is that a correct summary of your
28 evidence?
29 A. That is correct, yes.
41
1 342 Q. Did none of this worry you or make you feel that you
2 needed some advice about it? It seems a very vague
3 structure?
4 A. Well, none of it concerned me. I mean I was
5 technically in a relationship with other colleagues
6 who I trusted.
7 343 Q. Right. You told us earlier that your own particular
8 contributi on to the investment, your own particular
9 share of the investment of $950,000, was $212,000?
10 A. Yes.
11 344 Q. Did each member of the consortium or group, if we
12 can call it that, contribute an identical amount or
13 how was it done?
14 A. I don't think so. Mr. Dineen contributed less.
15 345 Q. Yes. What about the others?
16 A. The others, to my recollection, put in the same as I
17 did.
18 346 Q. Do you know what Mr. Dineen's contribution was?
19 A. I am not sure but I think it was about half of it.
20 347 Q. Half of the other people's contribution?
21 A. I think so, yes.
22 348 Q. Half of yours?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 349 Q. You are aware, I am sure, that Mr. Traynor of
25 Guinness & Mahon was the person who advice on this
26 structure, the setting up of the Lynbrett Trust?
27 A. I am not certain who did advice out the structure.
28 350 Q. Are you aware that it was a Guinness & Mahon
29 operation?
42
1 A. I am aware it was a Guinness & Mahon operation.
2 351 Q. Were you aware at the time that it was
3 Guinness & Mahon?
4 A. I was, yes.
5 352 Q. Did Mr. Collins tell you that?
6 A. Yes, I presume he did.
7 353 Q. And that would have reassured you, I am sure,
8 to know that a Bank of the reputation of
9 Guinness & Mahon had advised on this structure?
10 A. Well, I knew of them. I knew of Guinness & Mahon
11 because we used to do business with them.
12 354 Q. Yes. However, what I am asking you is would that
13 have given you some reassurance? Might that have
14 been why you did not seek financial advice elsewhere
15 if they had set up this structure, would
16 that...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. It probably would have given me some.
18 355 Q. Right. Did you at that time come across anybody
19 from Stokes Kennedy Crowley?
20 A. No.
21 356 Q. In relation to the setting up of this?
22 A. Never done business with them, no.
23 357 Q. Did all of you together, the five of you together,
24 have meetings about this, and about the Trust, and
25 the companies that each of you were to have?
26 A. I can't recollect honestly, you know. We would,
27 you know -- there would be phone calls. I was
28 constantly travelling at that time, here there and
29 everywhere, you know, and so...(INTERJECTION).

1 358 Q. However, did you not at any stage sit down together,
2 this was a complicated deal?
3 A. More than likely we did, you know.
4 359 Q. Yes. Would Mr. Traynor have been present at that or
5 a member of Guinness & Mahon?
6 A. Not that I can recollect.
7 360 Q. You do not recollect any such meeting?
8 A. No, no.
9 361 Q. Just getting back for a moment to Medford?
10 A. Yes.
11 362 Q. How were you told that this company was to operate
12 on behalf of you? In other words were you to be the
13 registered owner of this company? What was to be
14 your relationship with Medford?
15 A. I can't honestly answer you.
16 363 Q. You cannot remember?
17 A. All I know is that there was a, for the sake of
18 calling it and I don't know if I am putting the
19 right word on it, holding company and there was
20 five companies that owned that company and my
21 understanding of it was that that was my share.
22 364 Q. That was your share?
23 A. Yes.
24 365 Q. Were you a shareholder in Medford, is that it?
25 A. I don't know what I was, you know, because I
26 didn't...(INTERJECTION).
27 366 Q. Did you not ask?
28 A. Not that... (INTERJECTION) .
29 367 Q. You are an experienced businessman?
44
1 A. Yes.
2 368 Q. You must have realised you would have to hold the
3 shares in the company, acquire them in some way?
4 A. I don't -- I can't recollect what I done, you know.
5 369 Q. I cannot recollect?
6 A. I can't recollect. I find it very hard and I am not
7 being evasive but I can't recollect what I done two
8 or three years ago.
9 370 Q. Yes?
10 A. I mean I am being honest. I mean I can't and I am
11 under oath so I want to be...(INTERJECTION).
12 371 Q. Yes?
13 A. You know.
14 372 Q. I appreciate that it...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. I mean twenty years ago I have...(INTERJECTION).
16 373 Q. I appreciate it is difficult to recall detail?
17 A. Yes.
18 374 Q. However, this was nevertheless a huge transaction
19 that had terrible implications for you and the
20 others?
21 A. Well, it became a huge transaction after.
22 375 Q. Yes?
23 A. From the stand point that it went off the rails.
24 376 Q. I would have thought that, you know, the details of
25 it, at least in relation to the various entities and
26 the Trust itself, might have stuck in your mind?
27 A. Yes.
28 377 Q. However, you do not recollect?
29 A. Yes.
45
1 378 Q. Yes. I have no further questions. I think
2 Mr. Justice Costello just wants to ask you some
3 more.
4 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. BOLAND BY MS. MACKEY
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
46
1 MR. BOLAND WAS RE-EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE
2 COSTELLO:
4 379 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just to be absolutely
5 clear about your evidence
6 Mr. Boland?
7 A. Yes.
8 380 Q. You had a very close relationship, it appears, with
9 the Cork office of Guinness & Mahon?
11 381 Q. When did it close, do you remember?
12 A. Well, I got copies of the files. Sandra Kells
13 wrote to me to say that your office, I think it was
14 your office, had requested these files and did I
15 want a copy of them.
16 382 Q. Yes?
17 A. So, I said, "Certainly, I do want a copy of them,"
18 just...(INTERJECTION).
19 383 Q. Have you got those?
20 A. Because I hadn't them and -- I mean what they were
21 and this is one file that I want to raise now
22 (INDICATING).
23 384 Q. Yes?
24 A. Because it would be in conflict with may be what
25 Mr. O'Flynn said. It was only going through this
26 that I discovered this.
27 385 Q. Just listen to the question, you got files from
28 Sandra Kells?
29 A. Yes, I got a copy of what she gave to your office.
47
1 386 Q. No, no. You got copies. They were not given to us.
2 I just want to know...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. Sorry.
4 387 Q. I want to know can you give us copies of them?
5 A. Certainly, yes.
6 388 Q. You can?
7 A. Yes, certainly.
8 389 Q. Very well. These files related to what Mr. Boland?
9 A. To my dealings with Guinness & Mahon.
10 390 Q. Yes. From what period?
11 A. I presume from the very start.
12 391 Q. When you say you presume, did you look at the files?
13 A. I looked at the files, yes.
14 392 Q. When do they start, the date when they started?
15 A. I presume they are 1970.
16 393 Q. 1970, yes. Any way...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. I can't answer you but I can give you them.
18 394 Q. Yes. You can give them to us?
19 A. I presumed Chairman that it was you had got the
20 files.
21 395 Q. Yes. You can give us those files any way
22 Mr. Boland?
23 A. Yes.
24 396 Q. From the 1970's you would have dealings with
25 Guinness & Mahon in the Cork office?
26 A. In the Cork office.
27 397 Q. I am just wondering can you recollect when the Cork
28 office closed?
29 A. I can't.
48
1 398 Q. Was it recently? Was it in the -- perhaps
2 Mr. O'Flynn knows?
3 MR. O'FLYNN: I was involved in the
4 closure of it, yes.
6 MR. O'FLYNN: It was about five years
7 ago.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: About five years ago?
9 MR. O'FLYNN: Yes, yes
10 399 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: About five years ago then
11 the Cork office closed.
12 Did you then proceed to have negotiations, to carry
13 on business, with the Dublin office?
14 A. No.
16 A. No, Chairman just to clarify the thing.
17 401 Q. Yes?
18 A. I don't think that I did business with the Cork
19 office up to five years ago if you know what I mean.
20 402 Q. I see?
21 A. I -- my business with the Cork office was buying
22 foreign drafts.
23 403 Q. Yes?
24 A. For my business.
25 404 Q. Yes?
26 A. And when I got the file -- the file is a fairly
27 hefty file.
28 405 Q. Yes?
29 A. Because there is a sheet of paper for every draft
49
1 that you purchased.
2 406 Q. Yes?
3 A. And we would have been paying our creditors and
4 stuff like that.
5 407 Q. Yes?
6 A. And the reason for that was that we were able to
7 obtain a better rate than off the other banks and it
8 was a ...(INTERJECTION).
9 408 Q. Yes. I must ask you just formally, but I understand
10 from your evidence that the situation is such that
11 your evidence is that you never established a Trust
12 through Guinness & Mahon, is that right?
13 A. Well, the record says that I did establish a Trust.
14 409 Q. No, apart from the Lynbrett Trust?
15 A. Yes.
16 410 Q. Apart from Lynbrett Trust?
17 A. Yes.
18 411 Q. Did you ever deposit money with Guinness & Mahon?
19 A. Well, I would have sent money to the Lynbrett Trust.
20 412 Q. Apart from that?
21 A. Apart from that, no.
22 413 Q. No. You never had an account in the Cayman Islands?
23 A. No, no, no.
24 414 Q. Or none of your companies?
25 A. No, no.
26 415 Q. Very well then. Mr. Boland, if you could -- there
27 was something you wanted to say to us?
28 A. This was a thing that came up in these copy
29 documents that I got. This is part of the file
50
1 because in Mr. O'Flynn's letter to you he said
2 that I didn't hold an account and I discovered
3 that I did, but it is recollection again, with
4 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin.
5 416 Q. Yes?
6 A. And it was -- it related to the purchase of some
7 shares which I bought on behalf of -- on my own
8 behalf and Guinness & Mahon advanced the money on a
9 joint loan account for £16,000. In 1983 that was.
10 417 Q. Yes. Would you just hand me up that file for a
11 moment?
12 A. Yes (Same Handed) and they offered me a loan then
13 for my share of it and, which I refused, I paid it.
14 418 Q. Is this the file you obtained from Guinness & Mahon?
15 A. Yes, I wouldn't have even remembered it.
16 419 Q. Yes?
17 A. If I hadn't got it off them Chairman.
18 420 Q. Yes?
19 A. Other than the business file.
20 421 Q. Yes. The business file, you say...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. That is the only personal thing that is there
22 Chairman.
23 422 Q. Yes. The documents you got from Sandra Kells
24 related to your dealings with the Cork branch of
25 Guinness & Mahon?
26 A. Yes .
27 423 Q. However, in addition there is this document, this
28 file?
29 A. That is that document as well.

1 424 Q. Are there other files that you got?
2 A. No, no.
3 425 Q. I think we better have all the files that you got
4 from Sandra Kells. You can give us all the files
5 you got off of her?
6 A. Yes. Well, there is that one and the business one.
7 426 Q. Yes?
8 A. You can keep that one Chairman.
9 427 Q. MS. MACKEY: Is that your copy
10 Mr. Boland?
11 A. I have two copies of it.
12 428 Q. MS. MACKEY: Have you?
13 A. You can keep that one.
14 MS. MACKEY: Very good. Thank you.
15 A. And I will copy the other one but I was lead to
16 believe that Sandra Kells had given you all of this.
17 You see I could have brought it with me.
18 MS. MACKEY: No, it was not us.
19 A. Yes .
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then Mr. Boland.
21 We would require you to
22 come up to sign the transcript of this evidence,
23 which will be typed up shortly. Ms. Cummins will be
24 in touch with you.
25 A. Chairman, I would like to put something else now on
26 the record.
27 429 Q. Sure, yes?
28 A. Yes .
29 430 Q. Yes?
1 A. I had -- going back to the late 1980's I was subject
2 to a big Revenue audit per say.
3 431 Q. Yes?
4 A. And it went on for a number of years with
5 Craig Gardners my accountants. It went on and on
6 and on and all this fiasco, if I -- for the sake of
7 a better word.
8 432 Q. Yes?
9 A. With my American involvement, is all in it and the
10 tracing of the UDT shares in England and all of that
11 is all in it. So, I would just like to tell you
12 Chairman that I have -- that it is all done with the
13 Revenue and I eventually wound up with an amnesty
14 off Revenue and that was even questioned after.
15 There was some piece of it, there was an
16 investigation, that they wouldn't allow me on and so
17 forth to clear all my affairs but this was dealt
18 with very very meticulously by McCarthy,
19 Tony McCarthy, in the Revenue. So, all
20 the...(INTERJECTION).
21 433 Q. What was dealt with was the...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. All my affairs were but in particular those
23 UDT shares.
24 434 Q. Yes?
25 A. And the reference to them back to my involvement
26 with the American project and that
27 was...(INTERJECTION).
28 435 Q. And your involvement in the Lynbrett Trust was also
29 done?
53
1 A. In the Lynbrett Trust business, yes.
2 436 Q. Craig Gardner acted for you?
3 A. Yes, and that was -- that is going back to 1988 but
4 it wasn't finalised Chairman.
5 437 Q. Would you not have given records to Craig Gardner,
6 correspondence to Craig Gardner, that you would have
7 had?
8 A. Craig Gardner's -- I can get correspondence off of
9 them but I will be honest I didn't want to go to
10 Craig Gardner's and just tell them about this affair
11 but if ... (INTERJECTION) .
12 438 Q. Did -- I am concerned about the records which you
13 had at the time in relation to the Lynbrett Trust?
14 A. Well, I had no records.
15 439 Q. So you have told us. However, I am just wondering
16 had Craig Gardner any records?
17 A. No.
18 440 Q. Would you ask them?
19 A. I can ask them Chairman.
20 441 Q. Yes. Ask them did you supply them with any files or
21 correspondence that you had had about the
22 Lynbrett Trust?
23 A. Yes.
24 442 Q. And you can get copies for us if they did?
25 A. Yes. I can, of course, Chairman.
26 443 Q. Yes. Very good.
27
29
54
V w ^ GmvmwUC
ÔVlk.i-Vor*
1 C^ ^
•R
O'Hyma Exhams & Partners

Solicitors
58 South Mall, Cork.
Telephone (021) 277788/271998
Facsimile (021) 272117
Email: ofexcorliOindigo.ie
Our Ref: Your Ref: Date

FOF/AOD/19391.011 22 nd March, 2000
Ms. Noreen Mackey B.L.,

Inspector's Office,
3 r d Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
Re: Inspectors appointed by order of The High Court to

Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited ^
Our client-Mr. Francis J. Boland, Farnastack,
Annmount, Glounthaune, Co. Cork ' " -i-
Dear Ms. Mackey,
I am in receipt of your letter of the 6 t h inst. herein and I note the contents thereof.
I refer to your letter of the 10th January last and in particular to the lodgement of the sum
of US$50,000 referred to in the penultimate paragraph thereof and the queries raised in
thefinal paragraph in relation thereto.
My Client has no documentation whatsoever in his possession relating to the payment of

the sum of US$50,000. but he presumes that it was part of an investment which he made
in a US Property Venture in which he was a participant with Cornelius J. Collins, Clayton
Love, Patrick J. Dineen and the late Hugh P. Coveney. While my Client does not have
any documentation relating to that transaction, I do have some documentation arising
from the fact that this Firm represents the family of the late Hugh P. Coveney. In
January 1998, prior to his death, Mr Coveney had supplied a Statement on the US
Property Venture to Ike Moriarty Tribunal. I have a copy of this Statement in my
possession and, with the permission of the Coveney Family, I am authorised to make it
available to you,
I therefore enclose herewith the following documents:-
(1) Memorandum US Property Venture (prepared by the late Hugh P. Coveney).

(2) Copy Lynbrett Trust Deed dated 22 nd May 1981.
Frank O'Flynn Fachma O'Driscoll Denis P. Cahalan Michael A Bolger Irene O'Donovan Eamonn P. Muldoon Richard Neville
Roiy W Collins Peler Klrwan Jonathan While Brona McNamara Michael P. 6 MullSIn Cliona O'Rourke
Consultants: Brian W Russell A.C I Arb Nlall Cronln
lanspan Dublin Office:
international 17 Upper Pembroke S t , Dublin 2. Tel (01) 6311657 Fax (01) 6789549 Email: olexdub@indigo ie
O'Flynn Exhams & Partners 22nd March 2000
OurRef: FOF/AOD
The funding of Mr Boland's participation in this investment differed from that of Mr

Coveney. Mr Boland paid his share of the US$950,000 investment requirement from
his own resources. While he never had any Bank Account with Guinness & Mahon, and
has no recollection of ever paying any money to Guinness & Mahon, it is his belief that
the lodgement or transfer of US$50,000 referred to in your letter must have been part of
his share of the said required investment As to why the payment was made through
Guinness & Mahon, Mr Boland presumes that he must have been requested to do so.
Mr Boland states that he furnished full details of the US Property Venture to the Revenue
Commissioners many years ago in relation to his personal taxation affairs.
I notefrom your letter of the 6 th inst. that Mr Boland will be required to attend an
interview with the Inspectors and I confirm that he will be available to do so subject to
receipt of reasonable prior notice.
I trust that the foregoing is the information you require.
Yours sincerely, J y fij

FRANK O'FLYNN t ^ ^ / j
O'FLYNN EXHAMgÊPARTNERS
Enc. /
t h e l y n b r e t t e trust
kkkk JtAXXXk X-K'k-k-K-k
770289
George Town,
Grant Caynan
THIS DECLARATION OF TRUST is made the 22ndday of MAY , 19

BY: GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Cayman Company with its registered office
at George Town, Grand Cayman, British West Indies
WHEREAS the sum of U.S. Dollars has been transferred to

the said Guinness Mahon Cavtaan Trust Limited to the intent
that' it shall be held on the trusts hereinafter declared
which shall be known as the " LYNBRETTE " Trust.
NOW THIS DSHD WITNESSETH as follows:

1. In this deed the following expressions shall
have the following meanings
(i) "Tha Trustee" means the said Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Limited or other the trustee
or trustees for tha time being a from time
to time hereof.-
(ii) "The 3eneficiaries" means the persons specified
in the First Schedule hereto.
(iii) "The Scheduled Property" means the said sum
of
(iv) "The Trust Fund" means:
a) The Scheduled Property, and
b) Any further or additional oroperty which
any person or persons may donate to or vest
or" cause to be vested in the Trustee to be
held uoon the trusts and with and subject 10
the oowers and provisions hereof, and"
c) The property for the time bain.5 and
from time to time representing the Scheduled
Property and the further or additional
oropertv (if anv) aforesaid.
(v) "The P e r p e t u i t y ^ a t e " means t h e day
(a) or. which shall excire chs period of c.ii»hty
years fror. the execution of this Deed, or
(b) t h e day on w h i c h s h a l l e x p i r e " h e p e r i o d c
t v e n t v "years f r o n che d e a t h of Che l a s t s u r v r . v c r
of a l l descendants male and female of King George
•Fifth l i v i n g on the date hereof (whichever shall
f i r s t occur}, or
(c) such e a r l i e r date as the: Trustee s h a l l at
i t s absolute discretion by deed appoint.
(vi) "Property" means real personal movable or immovable
prooerty" of any description and wheresoever situate
including policies cash and choses in action.
2. (i) The Trustee hereby declares that the Trustee will
hold the Trust Fund uoon the trusts and with and
subject to the powers and provisions hereinafter
contained.
(ii) The Trustee shall have the right at any time during
the continuance of the trust hereby created to
accept such additional property as may be donated
to such trust by any person or persons either
personally or by testamentary act or disposition.
3. (i) The Trustee shall stand oossessed of the capital
and income of the Trust Fund in trust for all or
sucn one or more exclusively of the others or other
of the Beneficiaries at such age or tine or
respective ages or times if more than one in such
Shares and with such trusts for their resoectiva
benefit and such provisions for their respective
advancement maintenance and education at the
discretion of the Trustee as the Trustee shall by
any deed or deeds revocable or irrevocable executed
before the Perpetuity Date appoint.
(ii) No appointment shall be made revoked or revocable
on or after the Perpetuity Date.
(iii) Any revocable aonointment nay be made or revoked
by the Trustee for the tine being notwithstanding
that the persons who make the. appointment and
revoke the appointment may not be or include the
same persons.
L. (J.) In default of and subject to any sxich appointment:
as aforesaid the Trustee may until the Perpetuity
date pay or apply the whole or such part as the
Trustee' shall think fit of the income of the Trust
Fund as it arises to or for the maintenance
education advancement or benefit of all or such
one or more of the Beneficiaries for the tine bein<?
in existence in such proportions or manner as the
Trustee shall in the uncontrolled discretion of
the Trustee from time to time think fie;
(ii) Subject as- aforesaid the Trustee shall until the
770271
o
Petoetuifcy Date deal with the Income of cha Trust
Fund or so much thereof is shall not be paid or
apolied as aforesaid by accumulating the same as an
accretion to the capital of Che Trust Fund.
5. In default and subject as aforesaid the Trustee .shall
stand oossassed of the capital and income of Che Trust Fund upo
trust for such of the Beneficiaries as shall be in existence
immediately before the Perpetuity Date if more Chan one in such
share as it shall think fit in its absolute discretion or if
there shall be no such person then uoon Crust for the charitabl
institution named in the second schedule hereto absolutely.
8. The Trustee shall have and may exercise at its absolute
discretion at any time or times and from time to'time power to
pay or apply Che"whole or any part or parts of the Trust Fund
to'or for the advancement or benefit of all or any one or more,
exclusively of the others or other of Che Beneficiaries in such
manner as the Trustee shall in its absolute discretion without
being liable to account for Che exercise of such discretion
think fit including the purchase of an annuity tor any
Beneficiaries but so that the Trustee may at any tine* but at its
absolute discretion raleese this present power in whole or in
7. Notwithstanding any of the trusts powers and provisions

herein contained tha Trustea shall have power -at any sitae or
times before the Perpetuity Date by deed revocable or irrevoc&bl
to release any power right or discretion vested ir. the Trustee
under the trusts hereof.
8. No benefit devolving on any Beneficiary under this trust
shall forts or constitute"a portion of any communal or joint
estate of such Beneficiary but such benefit shall be and remain
the sole separate and -exclusive property of such Beneficiary
and should such Beneficiary be married or marry in community of
property Chen any benefit so devolving shall be expressly
excluded from the community and in the case of the Beneficiary
being female such benefit shall also be free from the
interference control or marital power of any husband of such
Beneficiary for tha purposes of this Clause the word "benefit"
shall include movable and immovable property and the provisions
of this Clause shall apply moreover not only to the benefits
actually dsvolvin.» on any 3snsficiary but also to the
property for the tisaa being representing the same anc the incogs
thereof.
9. In addition to all the powers vested in trustees by law
or statute the Trustee without the interposition of any
Beneficiary shall have and may exercise from time to tins the
following powers:
(i) To retain any oroperty belonging to or forming
p».rt of th? Trust Fund ir. the actual state or
condition in which the sarca sha?.l be received bv the
>-!*•} no-to Q
Trustee so long as the Trustee shall think oroo«r
• without being answerable for any loss occasioned
thereby.
(ii) To sell alienate or otherwise dispose of all or
any property at any time forming part of the Trust
Fund in such manner by public or private treaty an
for such price in money or other consideration
and on such conditions as the Trustee may think
prooer and. to receive the consideration price and
gTant discharges therefor.
(iii) To exercise, all the voting oowers attaching to
anv shares stock debenture or other securities
(hereinafter called "securities") at any time
forming part of the Trust Fund.
(iv) To exchange property for other property of a like
or different nature and for such consideration
and on such conditions as. the Trustee may consider
advisable.
(v) To comoromise and settle for such consideration
and upon such terras and conditions as the Trustee
may consider advisable, all matters arising in
relation to the trusts hereby created or the Trust
Fund and all such compromises and settlements
shall be binding on all the Beneficiaries.
(vi) To surrender and deliver up any securities forming
part of the Trust Fund for suh consideration and
upon such terms and conditions as the Trustee
may aporove to any company or corporation reducing
its capital and the Trustee may receive such
consideration in the form of cash securities or
other assets as may be agreed between the Trustee
and such other corporation.
(vii) To consent to any re-organisation or re-constructi
of any company or corporation the securities of
which* form part of the Trust Fund and to consent
to any reduction of capital or other dealings
with such securities as the Trustee may consider
advantageous or desirable.
(viii) To invest or lay out any moneys forming part of
the Trust Ft:nd or the proceeds of sale without
regard to the provisions of The Trusts Law (Law
6 of 1967) or any Act passed in amendment thereof
or in substitution therefor in the purchase cf
or at interest upon the security of such stocks
runes siiares or* securities or other investments
or property movable cr immovable of whatsoever
nature and situated anywhere in the world and
whether in possession or. reversion (including
770273
Che purchase of any freehold or leasehold land
with*or without any house or other buildings thez
. or plant or live or dead stock or chattels'for
the beneficial occupation use or enjoyment of
any Beneficiary or Beneficiaries ana including
any oolicy of assurance on the life of any person
or any endowment or other policy and the oavment
of the premiums in respect thereof) and whether
in the name of the Trustee or in the names of
nominees or in any other manner giving the Truste
control of the .same or upon such oersonal credit
with or without security as the Trustee at its
absolute discretion shall think fit and in additi<
(but without prejudice to the generality of the
powers hereby given) trust moneys may be laid
but in paying for any improvement addition alterat
demolition amendments cleaning repair
' to or of any house or other building or chattels '
for the time being forming part of the Trust Fund
to the intent that the Trustee shall have the
same full and unrestricted power of investing and
varying investments and property in all respects
as a beneficial owner (including all the powers
of a beneficial owner as regards charging' leasine
management and otherwise in rescect of any
freehold or leasehold property including surrender
in.g or dealing With any policy of assurance
forming part of the Trust Fund).
(ix) To ourchase or otherwise acquire or to invest

reinvest or refrain from investing the Trust Fund
wholly or partially in common stock or in any
other-securities (without regard to whether such
shall be listed on.any stock exchange or other
public market registered with any securities
commissions or similar bodies or subject to
contractural legal or other restrictions including
"investment letter" restrictions) or other type or
tynes of assets whether or not such assets
shall be oroductive of income or shall constitute
"Securities" in any sense including but not limits
to bonds notes debentures mortgages preferred
stocks DUts or calls beneficial interests in land
trusts interests or shares in common trust funds
mutual funds "open-end" or "closed-end" investment
trusts or funds real -estate investment trusts or
savings and loan or building and loan associations
oil gas or other mineral interests or natural
resources livestock or other animals comodities
foreign exchange insurance or endowment policies
annuities variable annuities or other property or
undivided interests ir. property foreign or dorcesti'
and the Trustee is expressly authorized to make
speculative investments if "it deems such advisable
without limitation bv any 'prudent man rule'
or rule of reasonableness or any other statute
n M fi n w i j A
or rule of law regarding investment by trustees
and the making of such investments shall in no
event be construed as a breach of trust and in
that connection without limiting the generality
of the foregoing to invest the Trust Fund or any
part thereof in any partnership limited partnershi
joint venture or association and to be able to
have and exercise all the powers of management
and participation in the management necessary
and incident to an investment in such partnershio
limited partnership or other venture including
the incurring of joint and several liabilities
with other members and the making of any election
available under any tax law by such partnership
or venture and at any time to participate in the
incorporation of any such partnership or vednture
to ooen accounts margin or otherwise with brokerap
firms banks or other wheresoever in the world
to invest the funds of the Trust Fund in and to
conduct maintain and operate such accounts directl
or through an agent for the purchase sale and
exchange of commodities stocks bonds end other
securities and in connection therewith to borrow
money obtain guarantees and engage in all other
activbities necessary or incidental to conducting
maintaining and operating such accounts.
(x) To pay out of the income or capital of the Trust

Fund all the costs of and incidental to the
preparation execution and stamping of this Deed.
(xi) To determine whether any sums received or disburse
are on account of capital or income or partly
on account of one and partly on account of the
other and in what proportions and the decisions.,
of the Trustee whether made in writing or implied
from the acts of the Trustee shall be conclusive
and binding on all the beneficiaries.
(xii) a) To employ and pay for such professional
or other assistance as the Trustee may deem requi'
in the discharge of the duties of the Trustee. *
b) To act on the opinion or advice of or
information obtained from any financial adviser
lawyer valuer surveyor broker auctioneer or other
expert or professional person and so chat che
Trustee shall not be responsible for any loss
depreciation or damage occasioned by acting or
not acting in accordance therewith.
(xiii) To determine all questions and matters of doubt
which may arise ir. the course of the management
administration realisation liquidation partition
or winding up of the Trust Fuiid.
770275 ,^
(xiv) Generally Co perform all acts of alienation
• hypothecation and other acts of ownership to the
sarae extent and with the' sarae effect as the Trustei
might - have done if it had been the beneficial
owner and the decision and action of the Trustee
whether actually made or taken in writing or imoli«
from the acts of the Trustee shall be conclusive
and'binding on all the Beneficiaries.
(xv) To erect buildings on and effect improvements
to any property forming oart of the Trust Fund
and also to conduct farming operations on and
. lease all or any part of such-property.
(xvih To institute and defend proceedings at Law and
to'oroceed to the final end and determination
thereof or compromise the same as the Trustee
shall consider advisable.
(xvii) To incorporate any company or companies in any
place in the world at the expense of the Trust
Fund with limited or unlimited liability for the
purpose of (inter alia) acquiring the whole or
any part of the Trust Fund the consideration on
the sale of the Trust Fund or any part thereof
to any company incorporated pursuant to this sub-
clause may consist wholly or oartly or fully paid
debentures or debenture stock or other securities
of the company and may be credited as fully oaid
and may be allotted to or otherwise vested' in •
the Trustee and shall be capital moneys in the
Trus tee1s hands.
(xviii)To exercise or concur in exercising the voting
and other.rights attaching to any securities for
the time being forming part of the Trust Fund
so as to become a director or other officer or
employee of any company and to be entitled to
vote and to be' oaid" andi to retain for the Trustee's
use and benefit reasonable remuneration for the
Trustee's services.
(xix) To borrow money whether on security of the Trust Fui
or otherwise at any time and from time to time and
pay or apply the money so raised in any manner in
which money forming part of the capital of the Trus
Fund may be paid or applied, and to execute and del:
such security documentation for said loans as may
from time to time be required.
(xx) To deposit the securities title deeds and other
documents belonging or relating to this Trust for
safe custody with any bank.
(xxi) To hold any part of the Trust Fund in the name or
the names of any nominee of the Trustee.
77H97P; 1 A
(sccii) In the event t h a t income or c a p i t a l s h a l l become
d i s t r i b u t a b l e to a minor beneficiary or t o a
• b e n e f i c i a r y under other l e g a l d i s a b i l i t y or
t o a b e n e f i c i a r y not adjudicated incompetent
by reason or i l l n e s s or mental, or onysica'i-
d i s a b i l i t y i s i n the opinion of the Trustee unable
properly "to administer such amounts then such
amoxmts may be paid out by the Trustee i n such
one or more of the following ways that the Trustee
s h a l l deem b e s t ( i ) d i r e c t l y to the s a i d b e n e f i c i a r
( i i ) t o the l e g a l l y appointed guardian or committee
of such b e n e f i c i a r y . ( i i i ) to a parent or some
r e l a t i v e or f r i e n d for the cere and support and
education of such beneficiary or ( i v ) by the Truste
u s i n g such amounts d i r e c t l y for- the b e n e f i t of
such b e n e f i c i a r y end as regards ( i i ) and ( i i i )
without having t o see to the a p p l i c a t i o n thereof
and the r e c e i p t of any such d i s t r i b u t e e s h a l l
c o n s t i t u t e a f u l l r e l e a s e and discharge of the
Trustee.
(xxiii)In the event of any income orobate estate or other
duties fees or taxes becoming payable in the Cayman
Islands or elsewhere in respect of the Trust Fund
or any part thereof on the death of any Beneficiarv
or otherwise at its discretion to pay all or any
oart of such duties fees and taxes out of the
Trust Fund without recourse against any beneficiarv
or to refuse to pay the same or any part thereof
unless indemnified and to determine the time anc
manner of such payment (if any)-
10. Notwithstanding any of the trusts powers and provisions
herein contained the Trustee shall have power at any time
or times before the Perpetuity Date at the absolute discretion
of the Trustee by any irrevocable deed or deeds and. without.,
infringing the rule against perpetuities to apppoint that
the whole or any part of the Trust- Fund shall thenceforth
be held upon the 'trusts and with and subject to the oowers
and provisions of any other trust (including this present
proviso) not infringing the rule against perpetuities applicabl
to this trust and approved, by the Trustee and ir. favour or
for the benefit of all or anv one or more exclusively of the
others or other of the Beneficiaries and upon any such appoint-
ment being made the Trustee may transfer to the trustee or
trustees for the time being of the said other trust the prooert
comprised in the said appointment and thereupon the trusts
herein declared concerning such property shall cease and
determine and the said property shall for all purposes be
subject to the trusts powers and provisions contained in the
said other crust and be subject to and be governed by the
proper law of the said other trust whether such proper law
shall be the proper law of this trust or not.
11. Notwithstanding any of the trust powers and provisions
herein contained the Trustee shall have power at any time
770277 1 A.
• -R*
or times before the Perpetuity Date and without infringing

the rule against perpetuities at the absolute discretion of
the Trustee by anv irrevocable deed or deeds to retire as
Trustee and to apooint a new trustee or new trustees outside
the Cayman Islands as Trustee hereof and to declare that the
trusts hereof shall be read and take effect according to the
laws of the country of the residence of incorooration of such
new trustee or trustees and upon such appointment being made
the Trustee shall immediately stand possessed of the trust
fund upon trust for the new trustee or trustees arid shall
transfer the same to the new trustee or trustees as soon as .
possible so .that the Trust Fund shall continue to be held,
upon the trust hereof but subject to and governed by the law
of the country of residence or incorporation of such new 'trusts
or trustees and thereafter the rights of all persons and the *
construction and affect of each and every provision hereof
shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of and construed
only according to the law of the said country which shall
become the forum for the administration of this trust (but
so that nonetheless the Trustee or the new trustee or trustees
may bv deed declare that the trusts hereof shall continue
to be" read and take effect according to the laws of the said
Cayman Islands as orovided by Clause 20 hereof) AND Clauses
i 17"and 20 hereof shall take effect and be subject to the trusts
I hereinbefore declared by this Clause AND any such new trustee
i or trustees may by deed make such amendments hereto as are
j necessary to ensure that the crusts hereof are effective and
j legal in such new jurisdiction.
} 12. The Trustee shall keep accurate accounts of its trus tea shit
and may have them audited annually at the expense of the Trust
Fund or the income thereof as the Trustee shall determine
by a firm of accountants selected by the Trustee.
• •.
13. The customary expenses in connection-with the adminis-
tration of this trust including the remuneration and charae
of the Trustee hereinafter provided for and of the investment
•1 and reinvestment of any part of the Trust Fund and the collectic
of income and other sums* derivable therefrom shall be charged
(•' against the income of the Trust Fund but if such income is
Ii insufficient for that purpose then the same shall be charged
against capital or so much of the capital as may be reouifed
I in addition to the income, for that purpose.
i
14. The Trustee may appropriate any part of the Trust Fund
in the actual state or* condition of investment thereof at
the time of appropriation in or towards satisfaction of the
j share of any person in the Trust Fund as to the Trustee may
I seem just and reasonable according to the respective rights
j of the persons interested in Che Trust Fund.
I
I
i
| 15. (1) Any Trustee being a trust company or corporation
\ shall be entitled to charge and be paid out of
the Trust Fund and She income thereof remuneration
! in accordance with its scale of fees now and from
' <7rfMOr/fi rr
time to time in force and may without accounting
for any resultant profit act as banker and perfor
any service on behalf of the Trust estate and
on the same terms as would be nade with acustome
(ii) Any Trustee being a lawyer chartered accountant
or other person engaged in any profession or busii
shall be entitled to charge and be paid all usual
professional and other charges for business
. • . « ^ _ —J —^ . I. «_ •
u»CUi » trustee not being

in any profession or business could have done
personally.
16. Tha Trustee shall not be reauired to give bond or securit
for the due and faithful administration of the Trust Fund
or for the discharge of the trusts hereby created.
I 17. (i) The power of appointing a new trustee or new trust
hereof shall be vested in the Trustee or the perse
representatives or the liquidator of the last
surviving Trustee and such power shall extend
to the appointment of a new trustee or new trustee
in the place of any Trustee resigning Its
trusteeship and also to the appointment of an
additional trustee or additional trustees up
to any number subject to such limit (if any) as
may for the time being be imposed by law.
i
(ii) Any Trustee may at any tine resign the trusteeship
on giving not less than fourteen days notice
addressed to the other trustees (if any) or if
there are' no other trustees on appointing a new
trustee or new trustees in the place of the retiri:
Trustee and any such notice of resignation shall
be deemed to operate so as to vest all of the
property forming the Trust Fund in the continuing
trustee or trustees.
(iii) .The office of a Trustee shall be ipso facto
determined and vacated if such Trustee being an
individual shall be found to be a lunatic or of
unsound mind or if he shall become subject to
the bankruptcy laws or if such Trustee being a
company shall enter into liquidation whether
compulsory or voluntary (not being merely a volunt
liquidation for the purposes of amalgamation or
reconstruction).
Notices of ail changes in the.trusteeship shall
be indorsed on or attached to these presents signe
by the surviving or continuing Trustee and every
such notice shall be sufficient evidence to any
oerson having dealings with this Trust as to tha
' '<->
facts to which it relates.

770279
Any person dealing with this trust may rely uoon
a copy of these nresents and of the notice's endors'
thereon or attached thereto certified by the Trust,
or the Trustee's lawyer before a Notary Public
to the same extent as he sight'.rely on the original
(vi) Unless there shall be a single trustee the Trustee
shall act only by a unanimous vote but in the
event of a disagreement the Trustee shall be bound
to take and abide by the opinion of Counsel.
18. (I) Every discretion or power hereby or by law conferre
on the Trustee shall ba an absolute and uncontrolle
discretion or power and no Trustee shall be held
liable for any loss or damage accruing as a result
of the Trustee concurring or refusing or failing
to concur in an exercise of any such discretion
or power.
(ii) No Trustee shall be liable for any error of judgment
or mistake of law or other mistake or for anything
save the wilful misconduct or wilful breach of
this Trust by such Trustee and each Trustee shall
be held harmless against any claims losses death
duties taxes and impositions arising in connection
with the Trust Fund or any part thereof.
19. Every Trustee who is a corporation or company may exercise
or concur in exercising any discretion or power hereby conferred
on the Trustee by a resolution of such corporation or company
or by a resolution of its Board of Directors or governing
body or may delegate the right and power to exercise or concur
in exercising any such discretion or power to any one .or more
of its directors', officers or emoloyees.
20. This Trust is established under the laws of the Cayman
Islands and if ana so long as the power contained in Clause
11 hereof shall not have been exercised the rights of all
oarties and the construction and effect of each and every
provision hereof shall be construed only according to the'
law of the said Cayman Islands which shall be the forum for
the administration of this trust.
21. The Trust hereby created shall take effect immediately
or. the execution hereof and be irrevocable.
22. No 3eneficiary of this Trust shall have any right to
alienate, encumber or hypothecate his interest therein, nor
shall such intersts of any Beneficiary be subject to claims
of his creditors, or liable to attachment, execution, or other
process of law. The income of this Trust shall not be pledged,
assigned, transferred, sold, or in any manner whatsoever
1 ~7
or encroachments of any Beneficiary or be subject to any
assignment or any other voluntary or involuntary alienation or
disposition whatsoever prior to the distribution of all or par-
of the said income to that Beneficiary.
23. The Trustees shall have the power to lend, with or without
security, and upon such terms and conditions as the Trustees maj
determine, to any of the Beneficiaries named in The First Schedi.
attached hereto.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF this Deed has been duly executed the day and
year first before written.
Th.e Common Seal of GUINNESS

i :) MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
was hereunto affixed
by Tohh A. &ockiKls
and by T O H N ft. FuftXE
by order of the Board of
Directors in the presence
of:
/
i/
Witness
770281
THE FIRST SCHEDULE
SPAKTACUS HOLDINGS LIMITED
ECLIPSE HOLDINGS LIMITED
YALE SECURITIES LIMITED
MEDFORD INVESTMENTS LIMITED
OVERSEAS NOMINEES LIMITED
all being companies registered under the laws of the

Cayman Islands and having their Registered Office at
P. O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, B.W.I.
THE SECOND SCHEDULE
The Cayman Islands Branch of the British Red Cross

Association.
7702S2
A O'Flynn Exhams & Partners
i'i:lt ,)»'•>»« -I'J,'
Fnc-jimilo (021) 4 i : CM.-
Fnviil: .!iH:.!i::.t'!

FOF/AOD/19391/11 C/B05/NPM 20 August 2001
STRICTLY PERSONAL % i ABM*

The Inspectors
Office of the Inspectors
Third Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
CO DUBLIN
•7
RE: INSPECTORS PRELIMINARY CONCLUSIONS

MR FRANCIS BOLAND
Dear Inspectors,
We refer to your letter of the 31 st July to Mr Boland and in particular to the document
entitled "Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions re: Mr Francis Boland" enclosed
therewith.
We have been requested by Mr Boland to write to you in relation to the Inspectors

( } Preliminary Conclusions and we will use the same numerical sequence:-
1.
2 & 3 We confirm that the content of 2 and 3 is materially correct, but that some
readjustment of the order of events would be preferable. Our suggestions are as
follows:-
"2. Mr Boland gave evidence that in 1980/81 he formed part of a

Consortium of Irish and American Investors for the purpose of
developing a property in the USA. The Consortium caused a
Discretionary Trust, the Lynbrett Trust, to be established of which
i\t;Tlvr>n ,•' .\i..v. GOi'l.v OrviT :> I' ,!:.'!.',I- ••I'-.-i-..-..--; v ,

ii;v:y l-cu-i ,v. .JOii.ilti;!.'. Wfi. ..v. 1-. i.
' i i'^ll i 'l'K, . ' - ! . > ' , . - > 1 . . t>wiiii C, Vol

> l'J3')l/ll/63J6l.T-l DOC
GMCT was the Trustee. The Lynbrett Trust had as beneficiaries five
Cayman Companies representing the interests of thefive Irish Members
of the Consortium. Mr Boland told the Inspectors that Medford
Investments Limted was the name of the Company intended to represent
his interest in the Trust. He explained that his personal contribution
towards the Development amounted to $212,000 which he paid in three
or four tranches. The Development was unsuccessful and failed
financially and the Irish Members of the Consortium, including Mr
Boland, had their Guarantees called by AIB.
3. Evidence supplied by GMI showed that on 19th November 1980 Barclays

Bank International in Manchester transferred $50,000 to an Account in
the name of Guinness Mahon & Co. (the London Company) in Bankers
Trust Company, New York for further transmission to GMCT Seven
Day Deposit Account, GMI say that Mr Boland requested this transfer
although Mr Boland has no recollection of the transaction but he
assumed that the transfer of the $50,000 was part of his personal
contribution of $212,000 towards the Lynbrett Development. The
Inspectors accept that this is the most likely explanation given a similar
transaction on the part of another participant in the Development at the
same time."
4. The Inspectors' Preliminary Conclusion.

While Mr Boland accepts that it was intended that he would become beneficially
entitled, by virtue of an intended option, to acquired Medford Investments Limited,
there was no evidence available to show that this actually occurred. In the
circumstances we would suggest that paragraph four be amended to read:
"4. Mr Boland was a Client of Ansbacher to the extent only that he was
intended to be entitled to be the beneficial owner of a Company
(Medford Investments Limited) which was, or was intended to beâ
potential beneficiary of the Lynbrett Trust of which GMCT was
Trustee".
We would be obliged if you would consider the foregoing before concluding the Inspectors
Preliminary Conclusions.
We look forward to hearing further from you.
Yours faithfully,
O'FLYNN EXHAMS & PARTjJE^S
19391/1 I/6846LT-ID
. OC
Appendix XV (171) Mr Patrick J Dineen
Patrick J Dineen.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Patrick Dineen dated 11 May 2000.
b) Extract of evidence presented to the Moriarty Tribunal by Mr Hugh

Coveney.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Patrick Dineen.
a) Letter of 14 August 2001 - O'Flynn Exhams & Partners to the Inspectors.

Appendix XV (171) (l)(a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. PATRICK DINEEN
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 11TH MAY 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
Interviewee: MR. PATRICK DINEEN
Represented by: MR. FRANK 0'FLYNN
0'FLYNN EXHAM &
PARTNERS SOLICITORS
5 8 SOUTH MALL
CORK
INDEX
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MR. P. DINEEN MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 5 - 3 4
MR. ROWAN 35 - 49
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 50 - 34

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,
2 11TH MAY 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Dineen, we will start
5 our interview then. My
6 name is Declan Costello and Mr. Paul Rowan is on my
7 left. We are, as you know, the Inspectors that have
8 been appointed by the High Court in this matter.
10 I should explain to you that this is not, of course,
11 a Court. It is not a tribunal. It is an interview
12 that we are directed to carry out in accordance with
13 the terms of the Statute and the Order of the Court.
14
15 If in the course of the interview we ask you
16 questions on which you would like to take legal
17 advice from Mr. O'Flynn please tell us so and we
18 will stop the questioning and you can take advice.
19
20 Similarly, if in the course of the questions
21 Mr. O'Flynn thinks that he should advise you on, in
22 relation to the question, he can indicate to us this
23 fact and we will stop and you can take advice.
24 MR. DINEEN: Thank you Chairman.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Dineen, I think the
26 best way of -- sorry.
27 Yes, sorry. It should be under oath. The
28 interview will be under oath and I will ask
29 Ms. Cummins now to administer the oath to you.
4
1 MR. PATRICK DINEEN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Dineen, I think the
5 best way, the most
6 expeditious way, for us to work would be to start
7 with the Lynbrett Trust and to work using
8 Mr. Coveney's statement as the basis on which I can
9 ask some questions. Would you just take
10 Mr. Coveney's statement and we will go through it in
11 the way he has set it out. It is page 10 (Same
12 Handed) (Exhibit 1)?
13 A. Chairman, I have seen the statement.
14 2 Q. Yes?
15 A. And it accurately reflects the facts.
16 3 Q. We will go through it then?
17 A. Okay.
18 4 Q. It begins Mr. Dineen with saying:
19 "In 1980 Mr. Jim Cummins, an Irish

American, who lived part of the year in
20 Cork..."
21
22
23 And who was well known to two friends of yours?
24 A. Yes .
25 5 Q. Mr. Collins and Mr. Boland?
26 A. Yes .
27 6 Q. And he approached them. When was that, do you know,
28 in 1980?
29 A. I can't recall Chairman really.

1 7 Q. Yes?
2 A. But it was around -- in fact he approached them and
3 he didn't approach me but I met him in San Francisco
4 and he said, "I assume you are going to be part of
5 this."
6 8 Q. When was that?
7 A. Around about then. I don't know.
8 9 Q. When were you -- do you mean -- in 1980, was it?
9 A. Yes, I would imagine it was after he had spoken to
10 them.
11 10 Q. However... (INTERJECTION)?
12 A. But around about the same time.
13 11 Q. However, was it in 1980 do you think?
14 A. I think so.
15 12 Q. Yes?
16 A. I am not sure.
17 13 Q. Can you remember when you were in San Francisco in
18 that year?
19 A. I can't.
20 14 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. But I was there I mean.
22 15 Q. Can you remember was it summer? Was it the autumn
23 or what?
24 A. I imagine it was -- it probably wasn't the summer,
25 you know.
26 16 Q. Yes?
27 A. I don't know.
28 17 Q. You think it probably was not the summer?
29 A. I am not sure.
6
1 18 Q. You are not sure?
2 A. But it was after Mr. Cummins had spoken to
3 Neil Collins and Frank Boland.
4 19 Q. Had Mr. Collins and Mr. Boland told you of this
5 conversation?
6 A. They hadn't, no.
7 20 Q. Yes?
8 A. But I mean that is not unusual. When I got back
9 I said, "I gather you are having a deal with
10 Jim Cummins and he suggested that I should be part
11 of it," and I joined it then.
13 A. Subsequently.
14 22 Q. Do...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Before it got going kind of.
16 23 Q. Had you known Mr. Cummins?
17 A. Yes. Mr. Cummins had a house in Inishannon. He was
18 an Irish American.
19 24 Q. Yes?
20 A. Who left in the 20's. He was from Kinsale.
21 25 Q. Yes?
22 A. And he had been in the moving business in
23 San Francisco and he had a boat in Kinsale.
24 26 Q. Yes?
25 A. And he used to come home in the summer.
26 27 Q. Yes?
27 A. And he was well known to lots of us around Cork.
28 28 Q. He would come home in the summer, would he?
29 A. Mainly the summer, yes.
7
1 29 Q. It would have been likely then that it would have
2 been in the summer of 1980 that he would have had
3 these conversations?
4 A. It was probably, yes, he it was more likely that I
5 was there in the Fall, you know, because he wouldn't
6 be around in the summer.
7 30 Q. Yes?
8 A. He would have gone back.
9 31 Q. He would have gone back?
10 A. Yes .
11 32 Q. Yes. It looks then as if it was the summer of 1980
12 and then the Fall, the autumn, the August/September
13 or so, that you would have first known about this,
14 is that it?
15 A. That, yes, I think so. Yes, that sounds right to
16 me.
17 33 Q. Yes. Did Mr. Cummins tell you anything, give you
18 any particulars about the proposed deal?
19 A. He did.
20 34 Q. What did he tell you?
21 A. Well, basically that it was going to be one of these
22 caravan parks in Arizona and that it was a
23 retirement. A type of, a kind of, retirement home.
24 35 Q. Yes?
25 A. For people who were fleeing the northern parts of
26 America to go south and so on.
27 36 Q. Yes?
28 A. And that these were sort of upper class mobile homes
29 and it was this sort of trailer park really.

1 37 Q. Yes. Did he tell you about Mr. Keith Smith's
2 involvement in it then?
3 A. He didn't at that stage. I only subsequently
4 discovered Mr. Smith was the guy who was going to be
5 running it.
6 38 Q. Did you know him?
7 A. No.
8 39 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. Well, I didn't know him then. I met him once.
10 40 Q. Yes?
11 A. Some years later.
12 41 Q. Yes?
13 A. He was in Ireland.
14 42 Q. I see. Then:
15 "There was a third American involved as

well, Mr. Harry Bidwell."
16
17 Did you meet him?
18 A. No.
19 43 Q. The idea was that you and Mr. Collins and Mr. Boland
20 would be involved financially in this. Did you give
21 you any idea as to what was involved financially?
22 What would be involved?
23 A. He didn't. I thought there was more than
24 Mr. Collins and Mr. Boland. I thought Clayton Love
25 was in this as well.
26 44 Q. That is right, yes?
27 A. Yes. He didn't, no, but he frankly he described it
28 as a kind of a, you know, licence to print money.
29 That we were going to make a lot of money out of
9
1 this.
2 45 Q. Yes?
3 A. And that, as I recall, they required, in America
4 they required, the majority shareholding to be held
5 outside of America and this was why we were being
6 invited in and I gather that they had had successful
7 ventures previously. That was all.
8 46 Q. Yes. He told you this, did he?
9 A. Yes.
10 47 Q. At this initial meeting in San Francisco?
11 A. Yes, he didn't tell me a lot now.
12 48 Q. Yes?
13 A. But he told me.
14 49 Q. Yes?
15 A. That there was this deal going down.
16 50 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. And if I wanted to be part of it I could be part of
18 it.
19 51 Q. Yes. When you came back to Ireland then what did
20 you do about it?
21 A. From memory I spoke to one or other of the parties
22 and said that Jim Cummins had mentioned this to me.
23 He mentioned it to me because I think he assumed
24 that I would be a partner and it was news to me and
25 I said, "Well, you know," it is kind of, "include me
26 in" sort of thing.
27 52 Q. Yes?
28 A. And that is what happened.
29 53 Q. Just tell me a bit more detail? Did you see
10
1 Mr. Collins and Mr. Boland?
2 A. I and Clayton Love.
3 54 Q. And Mr. Clayton Love?
4 A. Yes, I...(INTERJECTION).
5 55 Q. And Mr. Coveney?
6 A. Yes. I probably -- the more likely -- I would have
7 been closer to Hugh Coveney and I said, you know, "I
8 gather you are doing this deal in America and I am
9 happy to be part of it".
10 56 Q. Yes. Then...(INTERJECTION)?
11 A. Unfortunately.
12 57 Q. You must have known then, you must have been told
13 then, about the five people that would be involved
14 in it?
15 A. Yes, I was, yes.
16 58 Q. At this stage, this is when you came back to Ireland
17 after being in San Francisco, were there any figures
18 mentioned as to what was involved?
19 A. Well, I think so, yes. My memory of it is that
20 first of all I was late into the deal.
21 59 Q. Yes?
22 A. It had been agreed. The sort of perameters of it
23 had been agreed and my memory of it was that we had
24 to put up $100,000 each and that Allied Irish Banks
25 in New York, who had vetted the deal with Jones Lang
26 Wootton, were going to put up $2.7 million. This is
27 now from memory and that each one of us was putting
28 up $100,000.
29 60 Q. Yes?
1 A. So, were there five of us? Collins, Boland, Dineen,
2 Coveney, Love. Yes, anyway that was it.
3 61 Q. Yes?
4 A. And the American partners were putting up whatever
5 they were putting up.
6 62 Q. Yes?
7 A. But the bankers to the deal were going to be Allied
8 Irish Banks in New York.
9 63 Q. Yes?
10 A. And then, because all this had been set up really
11 before my involvement, the Americans, for it to be
12 tax efficient in America wanted the majority
13 shareholding to be off-shore America. At that
14 time I think Clayton Love was a Director of
15 Guinness & Mahon and they provided the facility.
16 The Lynbrett facility, the Lynbrett Trust, was going
17 to hold the shares in Roadhaven Resorts on our
18 behalf. Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust had a kind of
19 a shelf company called Lynbrett Trust, which was
20 going to be the holding company for our shares.
21 64 Q. We will take it in stages Mr. Dineen. I just want
22 to get the initial discussions you had. You were
23 told about the New York branch. You were told about
24 the bank being involved in lending. You were told
25 that each would put up $100,000 and you were told
26 then about the involvement of Guinness & Mahon. Was
27 that initially or did that develop?
28 A. No, I think that process had been in place and I was
29 merely told that this was the way the business was
12
1 going to be done and the other thing was that we
2 were required -- that AIB, Allied Irish Banks, in
3 New York were taking a first charge on the property
4 but that we would have to personally give joint and
5 several guarantees against the loan of $2.7 million
6 65 Q. Yes?
7 A. And some time thereafter the paper work in relation
8 to that was handled by Allied Irish Banks.
9 66 Q. Yes?
10 A. In 66 South Mall and we gave our guarantees.
11 67 Q. Were...(INTERJECTION)?
12 A. At least I did.
13 68 Q. Were the guarantees secured?
14 A. No.
15 69 Q. They were personal guarantees?
16 A. No, they weren't because the security the bank had
17 was a first charge on the property.
18 70 Q. Yes .
19 A. And the additional security they then had were the
20 personal guarantees which were based on what they
21 knew about us personally I suppose.
22 71 Q. Yes. We will just take it a little bit forward.
23 You had been told about this venture and you were
24 told that it had been started in the way you have
25 indicated. In fact a trust was established, we
26 know, and there were certain companies that were
27 named as the beneficiaries of the trust. Which was
28 your company?
29 A. All I can say is one of them was and I am not sure
13
1 which one but I think those companies -- (Same
2 Handed) (Exhibit 1) thank you. It was one -- I do
3 not think -- it was either -- I am not sure but it
4 was certainly one of them and
5 frankly...(INTERJECTION).
6 72 Q. If Spartacus was Mr. Collins, Eclipse was
7 Mr. Coveney and Yale Securities was
8 Mr. Clayton Love?
9 A. Yes.
10 73 Q. It would appear that Medford was yours. Do you
11 know?
12 A. I don't know.
13 74 Q. Yes?
14 A. But I would accept it because I know that -- I never
15 had any correspondence about it but I would accept
16 that to be correct.
17 75 Q. You did not incorporate any of these companies?
18 A. No, no.
19 76 Q. They were done by Guinness & Mahon, were they?
20 A. I imagine so.
21 77 Q. Yes?
22 A. But I honestly don't know.
23 78 Q. Yes?
24 A. Could I say that I came into this transaction at the
25 tail end of it.
26 79 Q. Yes?
27 A. And I was kind of accepting what had been set up.
28 80 Q. Yes?
29 A. Really.
14
1 81 Q. Yes?
2 A. So, I honestly don't know.
3 82 Q. Yes. Who were your professional advisors at that
4 stage?
5 A. I didn't have any.
6 83 Q. Did you not have your solicitor advising you?
7 A. No.
8 84 Q. Mr. O'Flynn did not advise you?
9 A. No, no.
10 MR. O'FLYNN: No.
11 85 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Did you have an accountant
12 advising you?
13 A. No.
14 86 Q. Did you...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. I thought this was a gravy train and
16 I...(INTERJECTION).
17 87 Q. Had you had any contact before with
18 Guinness & Mahon?
19 A. No, never.
20 88 Q. Never?
21 A. No.
23 A. Sorry, did I? I did. They had a branch in Cork in
24 the 1970's and I borrowed I think, from memory,
25 either £10,000 or £20,000 from them for -- I don't
26 know what I borrowed it for. Probably I was short
27 of money at the time.
28 90 Q. Sorry?
29 A. I borrowed it because I was probably short of money
15
1 at the time.
2 91 Q. Yes. I wonder how you had gone to, went to,
3 Guinness & Mahon?
4 A. Because the Manager there was a friend of mine. He
5 had been Manager of City Bank in Cork.
6 92 Q. What was his name?
7 A. Oh dear.
8 MR. O'FLYNN: Tuite.
9 A. Peter Tuite.
10 93 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Tuite?
11 A. And I think what he was doing was that he was going
12 around amongst his friends in Cork and just setting
13 up lines of credit and giving us bank accounts.
14 94 Q. Yes?
15 A. And I had a £20,000 line of credit and I borrowed it
16 and paid it back.
17 95 Q. Yes?
18 A. I know that Guinness & Mahon has giving you details
19 of that because that was the only business I ever
20 had with them.
21 96 Q. Yes?
22 A. And it was in their Cork branch.
23 97 Q. You had not then met any of the people in head
24 office in Dublin, had you?
25 A. No.
26 98 Q. Before this?
27 A. No, never.
28 99 Q. Of course you knew Mr. Clayton Love?
29 A. Yes.
16
1 100 Q. That was separate?
2 A. I did but I didn't -- I actually didn't know that he
3 was a Director of the bank at the time.
4 101 Q. Yes?
5 A. But I know that now.
6 102 Q. Yes .
7 A. In fact I am not sure that he was a Director of the
8 Bank. He might have been Director of one of their
9 subsidiaries, I am not sure.
10 103 Q. Yes. Mr. Coveney in his statement goes on then to
11 say, if you look in the middle paragraph:
12 "At that time Neill Collins had

extensive business interests in the
13 U.S. and had established a close
banking relationship"?
14
15 A. Yes .
16 104 Q. You were told then that Mr. Collins was involved in
17 this way and was organising the AIB in New York to
18 assist?
19 A. Exactly, yes.
20 105 Q. Had you been told when you were first introduced
21 and discussed the matter with Mr. Coveney that
22 Jones Lang Wootton had already been there and had
23 reported back on the...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. I am not sure I was told at the beginning but I know
25 that during the process that Jones Lang Wootton went
26 down and did an evaluation for the bank.
27 106 Q. Yes?
28 A. And came back and I think they had a kind of a
29 monitoring situation throughout the proceedings.

1 107 Q. Yes. I am just wondering Mr. Dineen?
2 A. Yes.
3 108 Q. You see this would be important from the point of
4 view of investing.
5 "They visited..."
7 According to Mr. Coveney,
8 "...the site in Arizona and reported

positively on the development and
9 profit projections($10m)"?
10
11
12 A. Yes.
13 109 Q. Do you remember did anybody show you a report from
14 Jones Lang Wootton?
15 A. No. I was kind of at the tail end of this
16 investment and at the time I counted myself lucky to
17 have been included in it.
18 110 Q. You were not told?
19 A. No, I wasn't.
20 111 Q. You were not shown any document?
21 A. No, but I was told. I remember it, yes. I was
22 told.
23 112 Q. That... (INTERJECTION) ?
24 A. That they had...(INTERJECTION).
25 113 Q. This would have been some time, you think, probably
26 in the course of the development of this?
27 A. Yes, I mean I think all of this investment took a
28 couple of years to kind of manifest itself and the
29 Manager of AIB in New York had been down there with
18
1 Jones Lang Wootton and I think he was really vetting
2 the security.
3 114 Q. Yes?
4 A. For the Bank.
5 115 Q. Yes?
6 A. And that was all sort of part of the deal.
7 116 Q. Do you, I know it is very hard to remember back,
8 remember when that was when he had gone?
9 A. No, I don't. Subsequent to 1980, some time after
10 that.
11 117 Q. Some time in 1981 that he had gone down?
12 A. Well, I am not sure.
13 118 Q. Yes?
14 A. But it was around about the time any way.
15 119 Q. Yes?
16 A. I mean like this was all being told to me as a sort
17 of -- this was the comfort.
18 120 Q. Yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 121 Q. Mr. Coveney's statement says Mr. Desmond Traynor of
21 Guinness & Mahon advised on the kind of structure.
22 Did you know Mr. Traynor? Had you met Mr. Traynor
23 then?
24 A. Not at that stage, no. No, I didn't know him.
25 122 Q. Yes. Were you told about the structure that was set
26 up?
27 A. I would say in very vague terms. I wasn't told in
28 any great detail. I mean for instance I didn't know
29 that Medford Investments was going to be the exit
19
1 point for me. I didn't know that.
2 123 Q. Did you know that a trust was going to be
3 established?
4 A. I imagine I was told that, yes.
5 124 Q. Yes. I mean there was a considerable amount of
6 money involved in this?
7 A. Yes.
8 125 Q. I am just wondering did you get any -- did you ever
9 see the Trust Deed for example?
10 A. At that stage I didn't.
11 126 Q. Not at that stage. However, later did you see it?
12 A. I think I only saw it in very recent times when the
13 whole thing went kaput.
14 127 Q. When there was litigation?
15 A. There was.
16 128 Q. There was litigation involved?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 129 Q. You knew in principle that there was going to be
19 established a trust?
20 A. I expect so. I wasn't...(INTERJECTION).
21 130 Q. However, no, I mean this?
22 A. Look, this was — I mean...(INTERJECTION).
23 131 Q. It is just if you cannot remember tell me
24 Mr. Dineen?
25 A. I am sorry to be displaying my naivety, which is
26 what it was at the time, but I mean I was going into
27 an investment with people I respected and trusted.
28 132 Q. Yes?
29 A. And I was being allowed into this investment.
20
1 133 Q. Yes?
2 A. And I don't remember questioning it in the way that
3 I should have.
4 134 Q. Yes. Do you remember there was reference to a
5 trust?
6 A. Vaguely, yes. I do, yes.
7 135 Q. Were you told why there was going to be a trust?
8 A. The only reason I was given was that it was the tax
9 efficiency of the deal from the American's point of
10 view.
11 136 Q. Yes?
12 A. That it had to be an off-shore. The investor, the
13 major shareholder, had to be an off-shore investor
14 and that the vehicle that had been set up, prior to
15 my becoming involved in it, was a trust which had
16 been set up on behalf of the overseas investors.
17 137 Q. Yes?
18 A. By Guinness & Mahon.
19 138 Q. In fact the trust was not established until later
20 Mr. Dineen?
21 A. Well, I ... (INTERJECTION) .
22 139 Q. I think you must have been mistaken about that. You
23 were told that there was going to be a trust?
24 A. I imagine so.
25 140 Q. Were you told why a trust was being established in
26 the Cayman Islands and not in Ireland?
27 A. No, I wasn't.
28 141 Q. Did you ask?
29 A. No.
21
1 142 Q. Did the question of the use of this mechanism for
2 avoiding tax on profits arise?
3 A. No, it didn't.
4 143 Q. Did you consider that any profits would be subject
5 to taxation here in Ireland?
6 A. I didn't consider it but I mean I would have been
7 quite happy to have -- to make an investment
8 anywhere in the world and to -- if I had made a
9 profit on it, well I would deal with that when I
10 made it.
11 144 Q. What do you mean by that Mr. Dineen?
12 A. What I mean by that is that if I made a profit I
13 would have to disclose it.
14 145 Q. Yes. You thought...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. In the event I made a loss on it.
16 146 Q. I know that. However,...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. And I disclosed that too.
18 147 Q. However, you thought that -- you did not in any way
19 consider that there would be any tax implications in
20 going to the Cayman Islands?
21 A. No, I didn't.
23 A. I thought the tax implications were for the
24 Americans.
25 149 Q. Yes?
26 A. Not for us.
27 150 Q. Yes. You did not discuss with anybody that this was
28 a way of avoiding Irish income tax?
29 A. No, certainly not, no. In fact in 1993, when the
22
1 loss eventually manifested itself, I sought to
2 offset the loss against my taxes in Ireland because
3 I had sold my company and I had a considerable
4 tax...(INTERJECTION).
5 151 Q. Which company had you sold?
6 A. Sedgwick Dineen.
7 152 Q. Yes?
8 A. And I had sold that to Sedgwick. I was the Dineen
9 part of it.
10 153 Q. Yes?
11 A. And I had a considerable capital gain.
12 154 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I sought to offset the loss which manifested
14 itself around about the same time.
15 155 Q. Yes?
16 A. Against capital gain and I had always fully
17 disclosed my involvement in this to the Revenue.
18 156 Q. Yes?
19 A. And they would not allow it because, in fact, the
20 money which we put into Roadhaven Resorts was by way
21 of loan and it wasn't an investment at all.
22 157 Q. Yes. Tell me about Roadhaven Resorts?
23 A. Well, Roadhaven was the company in which we
24 invested. That was the company in Arizona, was
25 Roadhaven.
26 158 Q. Was the investment not through the trust. Was the
27 trust then...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. Our investment.
29 159 Q. Sorry?
23
1 A. Our investment, the Irish partners. As I understand
2 it Roadhaven consisted of -- the shareholders were
3 the Lynbrett Trust and the people who owed Lynbrett
4 were the people listed here (INDICATING) (Exhibit
5 1) •
6 160 Q. Including yourself?
7 A. Yes .
8 161 Q. One of these companies?
9 A. Including myself, yes.
10 162 Q. Each had a fifth, were you divided equally?
11 A. No.
12 163 Q. Were you equal?
13 A. We weren't divided equally.
14 164 Q. What was the division?
15 A. The division was that at some stage in proceedings
16 we were given the opportunity to increase our
17 investment in this. I think from memory it was
18 going to be a bigger resort than was originally
19 envisaged and I didn't have enough money at the time
20 to invest further in it. I had a half share. So,
21 if the five had $100,000 -- I did not increase my
22 shareholding because I wasn't able to. I didn't
23 have the money to do it.
24 165 Q. Originally was the idea that you would each have one
25 fifth share in the venture?
26 A. Originally, yes.
27 166 Q. Then you ended up then by having a half share in the
28 one fifth, is that it?
29 A. Well, I...(INTERJECTION).
1 167 Q. One tenth then, is that it?
2 A. Well, I had a ninth in the end.
3 168 Q. A ninth share?
4 A. A ninth.
5 169 Q. Yes?
6 A. I don't know whether that arithmetic is right now or
7 not.
8 170 Q. Yes?
9 A. But I had half of what everybody else had
10 eventually.
11 171 Q. You had a half share. Instead of having a fifth,
12 you had a half share in the fifth?
13 A. Exactly.
14 172 Q. Then which ever company you owned then you had a
15 half of that company, is that it?
16 A. I don't know but I assume so. Can I just have a
17 quick word with him?
18 173 Q. Yes?
19 A. I ended up with a ninth of Lynbrett Trust when the
20 investment was increased.
21 174 Q. Yes. Could we just look at Mr. Coveney's statement,
22 (Exhibit 1) at the second last paragraph on the
23 first page:
24 "Under the arrangements negotiated with

AIB New York, AIB would lend $2.775m to
25 Lynbrett..."
26
27
28 That is what happened, was it not?
29 A. Yes.
25
1 175 Q. Yes?
2 A. From memory, yes.
3 17 6 Q. And:
4 ". ..who in turn lent it on to

Mr. Keith Smith's company..."
5
6 A. Roadhaven.
7 177 Q.
8 "...Roadhaven Resorts Inc."
10
11 Is that the company you are referring to, Roadhaven?
12 A. That was the company that was doing the development.
13 178 Q. However, the money was to be lent to Lynbrett and
14 they were to lend it on in turn to Roadhaven?
15 A. Exactly.
16 179 Q. Yes. He was carrying out the development?
17 A. Yes.
18 180 Q. If you just see then, there were to be:
19 "Personal, joint and several

guarantees."
20
21 And they were signed in Cork on the 23rd June 1981?
22 A. Yes.
23 181 Q. You recall that that would be correct?
24 A. That is absolutely correct. Well, I recall going in
25 and signing the guarantee.
26 182 Q. Yes. Then, Mr. Coveney, over the page then, goes on
27 to say:
28 "In addition to the A.I.B. borrowing of

$2.775m the Lynbrett Trust was also
29 required to put up £950,000 in the
initial development."
26
1 This is what you are referring to as the figure?
2 A. Yes, I think that was the equivalent of what we put
3 in. There is exchange, you know. I mean my
4 recollection is that I put in $100,000
5 or...(INTERJECTION).
6 183 Q. I am just wondering is that correct. Is that the
7 ninth you are referring to, the $100,000?
8 A. Yes, it is roughly that.
10 A. I mean all I know is that I put in $100,000.
11 185 Q. Yes?
12 A. So, if that roughly equates to a ninth of $950,000.
13 There were exchange charges, you know.
14 186 Q. Yes?
15 A. I don't know really. Sorry, Chairman, I don't
16 exactly understand what you are asking me.
17 187 Q. I am just asking you how much you invested? How
18 much you put in?
19 A. My memory is $100,000 or pounds. I am not sure.
20 188 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
21 A. Around that I thought.
22 189 Q. It is of some importance if you
23 could...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. Sorry. Can I consult with my solicitor because I am
25 a bit confused?
26 190 Q. A witness is not meant to be assisted.
27 MR. O'FLYNN: Right, Okay?
28 A. No, no.
29 191 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, at the same time
27
1 if there are defects, it
2 was a long time ago and I am sure it was difficult
3 for you to remember. However, if you could remember
4 yourself Mr. Dineen how much money you put in? Was
5 it $100,000 or £100,000?
6 A. I know this sounds ridiculous. I think it was
7 $100,000, whatever that cost at the time.
8 192 Q. Yes. Do you remember how you...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. Well, it was one or the other and I would have to
10 check but I...(INTERJECTION).
11 193 Q. Could you check?
12 A. My memory is that it was $100,000.
13 194 Q. However, could you check?
14 A. I don't think so. I don't have any records of that,
15 no.
16 195 Q. Where did you get the $100,000 from?
17 A. I will tell you where: If I may look at a letter
18 that I wrote to the Revenue Commissioners because
19 they did ask me these very specific questions?
20 196 Q. Yes?
21 A. And they are all here. One second now. Just bear
22 with me Chairman for a minute. Yes, my investment
23 in the project was $50,000 in two tranches. So, my
24 investment originally was $100,000 and one of the
25 things that encouraged me to make this investment
26 was that AIB in New York were prepared to lend me
27 this money. I had agreed that they lent me $50,000
28 in the first instance and, in fact, I think that
29 $50,000 was actually given to me by AIB in Cork even

1 though I was ending up borrowing it from AIB in New
2 York. So, confident were they in having looked at
3 the project and having the security of the title
4 down in Arizona.
5 197 Q. Yes?
6 A. In the event they didn't have it but they told me
7 that they had it but they were prepared to lend me
8 $100,000 on my head. I didn't -- unsecured.
9 198 Q. Unsecured?
10 A. And when the opportunity arose for me to increase
11 the investment, as it did for the others, the
12 Manager of AIB New York encouraged me to borrow the
13 other $100,000 and I just wasn't able to do it. I
14 had too many commitments at the time.
15 199 Q. Yes?
16 A. And I didn't do it.
17 200 Q. Yes. Just give me that in a little more detail if
18 you can. You can, of course, look at your letter
19 there?
20 A. Well, the only reason I am looking at it is that I
21 had to give it to the Revenue Commissioners and it
22 had to be correct.
23 201 Q. Yes?
24 A. So, it is correct.
25 202 Q. If you could just tell me: You borrowed $100,000?
26 A. Yes .
27 203 Q. To make this initial payment?
28 A. Yes .
1 A. Only payment.
2 205 Q. Sorry?
3 A. The only payment.
4 206 Q. The only payment you made?
5 A. Yes.
6 207 Q. Can you just tell me can you recollect how that
7 transaction took place, you say...(INTERJECTION).
8 A. From memory it is that Allied Irish Banks in
9 New York agreed because again if you -- if I could
10 say to you that I was coming late into the
11 transaction. They knew all about it. They had
12 evaluated it and I was just another shareholder.
13 208 Q. Yes?
14 A. Who was being allowed into the deal.
15 209 Q. Yes?
16 A. And they said, "Well, you can have $100,000," and I
17 think in order to get that to Lynbrett I actually
18 initially gave $50,000 and my memory is that I sent
19 it to Guinness & Mahon in Dublin for onward
20 transmission to Roadhaven.
21 210 Q. Yes?
22 A. That is my memory of it.
23 211 Q. Yes?
24 A. And eventually the tab for that was picked up by
25 Allied Irish Banks in New York.
26 212 Q. Yes?
27 A. So, I ended up owing Allied Irish Banks in New York
28 $100,000.
29 213 Q. However, I just want to understand: You gave the
30
1 initial $50,000 by what, by way of draft or how was
2 it transferred to Guinness & Mahon?
3 A. I don't know how I did it but I think I was told to
4 send it to...(INTERJECTION).
5 214 Q. To Dublin?
6 A. To Dublin and either the bank sent it or I sent it
7 and I don't know which.
8 215 Q. Yes. What about the second $50,000?
9 A. I am not sure what happened about that but Allied
10 Irish Banks in New York were almost the Project
11 Manager of this thing at this stage and they simply
12 took it out of my account and gave it -- I have a
13 feeling they give it directly to Roadhaven.
14 216 Q. Yes?
15 A. But I am not sure.
16 217 Q. Had you an account then in that bank?
17 A. I had, yes.
18 218 Q. Yes?
19 A. That was the only account I had.
20 219 Q. Yes?
21 A. And it has only very recently been repaid.
22 220 Q. Yes?
23 A. In the last five years or so.
24 221 Q. Yes. It does appear from information we have,
25 and we told you in the letter, that a sum of
26 $50,000 was paid by you into the London bank,
27 Guinness & Mahon London?
28 A. It wasn't paid by me. This was the first -- when I
29 got your letter it was the first I heard of it.

1 222 Q. Yes?
2 A. So, I am assuming that that was the transmission
3 process, I don't know.
4 223 Q. Yes?
5 A. I never had any dealings with Guinness & Mahon in
6 London.
7 224 Q. Yes?
8 A. Ever.
9 225 Q. Yes. I want you to look at two documents now. It
10 is on a different matter altogether. It is page 27
11 -- sorry, it is not page 27. It is page 31 and 32
12 (Same Handed)?
13 A. Thank you.
14 226 Q. You see these?
15 A. Yes.
16 227 Q. One document is a statement. It is July 1973
17 (Exhibit 2)?
18 A. Yes, 1973.
19 228 Q. One is G & M Jersey Trusts, Dineen Trust. You will
20 see on the right-hand-side the full name of the
21 account is:
22 "Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust as

Trustees of the Dineen Trust."
23
24
25 You will see the next document is the G & M Trust,
26 The Coveney Trusts?
27 A. Yes.
28 229 Q. I wish you to tell us whether or not this Dineen
29 Trust referred to you?
32
1 A. It is the first time I have ever seen that.
2 230 Q. Yes?
3 A. I have never seen that before.
4 231 Q. Yes. Did you establish a trust in Jersey?
5 A. No.
6 232 Q. No?
7 A. No, that is the first I have ever seen that.
8 233 Q. Yes?
9 A. I have never seen that before.
10 234 Q. Yes. You see there was a lodgement made to it of
11 £10,000 on 9th July. It was the same date as the
12 lodgement that was made to Mr. Coveney's Trust?
13 A. Yes.
14 235 Q. If you look over the next page?
15 A. Yes.
16 236 Q. And there was a...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. £100 Chairman.
18 237 Q. There was -- sorry, £100, you are right. There
19 was a payment out then of £100 on the same day,
20 the 17th September 1973 and there was -- and in
21 Mr. Coveney's, apparently also, there was a payment
22 out. This does not refer to you as far as you are
23 concerned?
24 A. Well, it is the first I ever heard of it or seen it.
25 238 Q. I see. Yes. Mr. Dineen, what I propose to do, if
26 it is all right with you, is to adjourn now for a
27 short time for a short break for a cup of coffee?
28 A. Okay.
29 239 Q. If that is all right with you?
33
1 A. Of course, yes.
2 240 Q. You can stay here and we will be back in about ten
3 minutes?
4 A. Okay Chairman. Thank you.
6 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. PATRICK DINEEN BY
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
9 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
34
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will resume Mr. Dineen.
2 I am going to ask
3 Mr. Rowan to ask you some questions.
4 A. Yes.
6 MR. PATRICK DINEEN WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY
7 MR. ROWAN:
9 241 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Dineen, I am a little
10 unclear about the whole
11 aspect of the $100,000 which you invested in this?
12 A. Yes.
13 242 Q. Which you have indicated to us was contributed in
14 two tranches of $50,000?
15 A. Yes.
16 243 Q. One $50,000 tranche being paid out of AIB in
17 New York and charged to your loan account there?
18 A. Yes.
19 244 Q. The other $50,000 taking a more circuitous route, if
20 I might describe it that way?
21 A. Yes.
22 245 Q. Can I just go through that with you again? You said
23 that for some reason, and may be you would elaborate
24 a little bit more on that, the suggestion was that
25 that $50,000 would actually come from AIB branch
26 that you dealt with in Cork?
27 A. Yes — no...(INTERJECTION).
28 246 Q. Tell me a little bit more about that please?
29 A. No, what actually what happened was the Manager of
35
1 AIB in New York was kind of central to this in that
2 he was almost the Project Manager. Mr. Collins was
3 dealing with him in particular and he said to me
4 that he would make $100,000 available to me.
5 247 Q. Yes?
6 A. Now, I hadn't set up any documentation with him
7 because I wasn't in New York. I had spoken to him.
8 So, what happened was he arranged with his colleague
9 in Cork that I would get $50,000, which would end up
10 -- I would end up indebted to AIB in New York for
11 that and he set it up. So, that was the way it
12 happened and the next time I was in New York I went
13 in and opened this loan account and regularised the
14 paperwork as it were. That is my memory of it.
15 248 Q. Why on earth would they do it that way?
16 A. Because I was in Ireland and I didn't have -- my
17 facility -- my investment of $100,000 was coming by
18 way of loan from AIB in New York, not from AIB in
19 Cork.
20 249 Q. Yes. I appreciate that. Why on earth would AIB as
21 a corporate entity, why would they, say, "We are
22 prepared to lend you $100,000 in New York but half
23 of it please arrange to borrow in Ireland"?
24 A. I am not sure I borrowed it in Ireland at all to be
25 honest with you. I think that the $50,000 was given
26 to me, from memory now and I am not sure, I am kind
27 of confused about this too but ultimately it was AIB
28 in New York who put up the $100,000. Now, my memory
29 of it is that I think they called up the Bank in
36
1 Cork and said, "Look, we have agreed this facility
2 with Mr. Dineen. He hasn't been put in place," but
3 I imagine they told them that if they give me, if
4 they sent $50,000 they would pick up the tab and
5 some time later than that I went in then to AIB in
6 New York and regularised the matter. I was over and
7 back to the Unites States on a fairly regular basis.
8 Well, when I say that it was three or four times a
9 year.
10 250 Q. Leaving aside why on earth the Bank might think this
11 was an appropriate way to deal with the transaction.
12 Just explain to me: You went into see your Manager
13 in the Bank in Cork?
14 A. Yes.
15 251 Q. Did you?
16 A. Yes, but that was for the purpose of signing the
17 guarantee.
18 252 Q. All right?
19 A. And also could I say that the Allied Irish Banks in
20 Cork were the bankers to Sedgwick Dineen. Now,
21 Sedgwick Dineen at that stage was becoming a
22 reasonably successful company. Now, I didn't have
23 any personal assets at all really. I had a house
24 and I had this company, which was in its embryonic
25 stages but was doing extremely well. I started
26 the company in Cork and even though it became
27 a national company eventually, including
28 Northern Ireland, the account always resided in
29 AIB in South Mall in Cork. So, I guess I was a
37
1 reasonably valued customer.
2 253 Q. All right?
3 A. And they facilitated the transaction and I can't
4 offer you any other explanation than that really.
5 254 Q. Thank you for that background. However, you would
6 have had to go into see the Manager and he would
7 have suggested that this was the way the bank wanted
8 to do this. Would he have at that point, and I will
9 come back to the issue of the guarantees if I may?
10 A. Please, sure.
11 255 Q. However, he would have given you a $50,000 document
12 of some sort? What sort of document was it?
13 A. I don't remember that. I mean I have no
14 recollection of having received it. I think he
15 simply transferred -- my memory of it is, and I am
16 not sure about this, I have no recollection of it
17 being given a document, draft or anything like that.
18 I think he arranged...(INTERJECTION).
19 256 Q. However, you would have had to, would you not?
20 A. But... (INTERJECTION) .
21 257 Q. You would have had to have had some sort of
22 documentation?
23 A. I imagine so. I just don't remember. I am quite
24 sure that I signed something. I am sure that he
25 just didn't give me, he just didn't transfer
26 $50,000.
27 258 Q. However, I mean you had to walk out of the branch
28 with something?
29 A. No, I didn't walk out with anything. My memory of
38
1 it was that he sent it to Guinness & Mahon in Dublin
2 on my behalf and, in fact, I think it was on behalf
3 of AIB in New York he did it. That is my memory of
4 it. Like I am equally confused about it but that is
5 my memory of the way it happened. Now, the second
6 $50,000...(INTERJECTION).
7 259 Q. Sorry?
8 A. Yes.
9 260 Q. Before you go to that?
10 A. Sorry.
11 261 Q. However, I mean there was actually $50,000
12 transferred from Ireland to New York?
13 A. No, I think it was sent to Guinness & Mahon in
14 Dublin. I am fairly sure of that.
15 262 Q. However, it eventually found its way to New York?
16 A. Remember now that I was in behind everybody else in
17 this transactions. I was merely doing what I was
18 told, what I was asked to do.
19 263 Q. Yes. However, this particular bit?
20 A. That bit, yes.
21 264 Q. Is very special to you because the others were doing
22 it, I suppose, in their own particular ways?
23 A. Yes.
24 265 Q. However, you had elected to borrow the $100,000 that
25 you had to put up?
26 A. Well, I was offered it.
27 266 Q. Yes?
28 A. By the bank in New York.
29 267 Q. Yes?
39
1 A. And I think I was told that this money had to be
2 sent to Lynbrett and when I was in signing the
3 guarantee, again, now my memory is that the
4 Bank Manager in AIB said, "Well, I will take care of
5 the $50,000. I will get that to Guinness & Mahon
6 and next time you are in New York you go in and
7 regularise it with the guy in New York." That is
8 what happened. The second $50,000 then was sent by
9 the guy in New York to Lynbrett.
10 268 Q. In fact the first $50,000 may well have never gone
11 near New York. It went from Ireland to Lynbrett?
12 A. It went from Ireland. As far as I am concerned it
13 went to Guinness & Mahon in Dublin and for onward
14 transmission to whatever, to Lynbrett.
15 269 Q. Okay. You feel that that was done at the same, on
16 the same, occasion as you were asked to sign the
17 personal, joint and several guarantees?
18 A. Yes.
19 270 Q. Just as a matter of interest in respect of those
20 guarantees: Were they dollar guarantees?
21 A. Two points from memory, yes. Well, if you are
22 asking me, "Were they expressed in the equivalent in
23 Irish Pounds?" I don't know but my memory of it --
24 I mean I have seen the guarantee because the bank
25 called it in recent times.
26 271 Q. Yes. Let me help you perhaps a little in
27 that...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. I think it was in dollars.
29 272 Q. They would perhaps, when you think about it, have
40
1 been more likely to have been dollar guarantees
2 because there would be rates of exchange issues?
3 A. Yes, exactly.
4 273 Q. Otherwise, you know?
5 A. Exactly.
6 274 Q. If there were in any other currency?
7 A. I think you are right. I think it was dollars, yes.
8 275 Q. I think, yes, it would have been dollars. You
9 signed these joint & several guarantees along with
10 Mr. Collins and Mr. Love etc etc?
11 A. I signed them separately. Well, I signed my
12 guarantee separately. I was on my own. I remember
13 it well.
14 276 Q. Yes. Can you remember when those guarantees might
15 have been signed because presumably this would have
16 been a later stage in the whole process?
17 A. I can't remember but I can find out because the bank
18 called the guarantees some years ago and we had to
19 pay up.
20 277 Q. It would be very valuable if you could?
21 A. We can get that.
22 278 Q. Provide that piece information?
23 A. May I ask Mr. O'Flynn a question?
24 279 Q. Yes?
25 A. I think Mr. Rowan -- I think you have a copy of the
26 guarantee. We sent it to you. Mr. O'Flynn says he
27 sent it to you.
28 MR. O'FLYNN: May I interject there? It
29 would have been sent in

1 the papers I sent up in the Coveney matter last
2 week. There would have been a copy of the
3 guarantee, for AIB, I think.
4 A. Well, if you don't have it we can send it any way.
5 There is no problem with that.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We have the Coveney
7 guarantee which apparently
8 was dated 23rd June 1981.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We have not got
11 Mr. Dineen's, I do not
12 think.
13 A. Well, I can assure you its there and we can let you
14 have it.
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Can you get it for us?
16 MR. O'FLYNN: Do you have it?
17 A. I am sure. Well, I have to have it because they
18 called it. So, we will certainly send it to you.
20 MR. O'FLYNN: I think it is in the
21 settlement document of
22 1994, which would have come up in the papers which I
23 sent up.
24 A. You see the...(INTERJECTION).
25 MR. O'FLYNN: I think it is part of that
26 document.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well. Can you look
28 please?
29 A. If you don't have it Chairman we will send it to you
42
1 any way.
2 280 Q. MR. ROWAN: You feel that on the
3 occasion you went to see
4 the Manager you dealt with the two issues: One was
5 the $50, 000?
6 A. Yes .
7 2 31
i Q. And the second was the joint and several guarantees?
8 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
9 282 Q. All right. Can you recall when, to the best of your
10 knowledge, this project actually got going?
11 A. I can't. It was some time subsequent to 1980. I
12 can't really because I have to remind you that I was
13 late into it and I was very much a minor partner and
14 Mr. Collins was the sort of conduit between
15 Roadhaven and the investors. In fact, I mean, the
16 thing was going on for years before we knew or we
17 had any detail, other than the fact that we were
18 being told from time to time, that everything was
19 going well and so on and so forth. So, frankly I
20 mean -- I know this makes me sound terribly stupid
21 but I made the investment and sort of trusted the
22 people I was involved with to see to it that it was
23 going to be successful.
24 283 Q. Do you know whether and perhaps the document that we
25 are just about to see will help, you were asked to
26 sign the joint and several guarantees and indeed
27 make your contribution of the first $50,000?
28 A. Yes .
29 2 34
i Q. Do you know whether that was after the project had
1 started? I mean had the bank advanced the $2.77
2 million at that stage?
3 A. I am not sure but its possible. I am not sure.
4 285 Q. Because, I mean...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. Well, I mean...(INTERJECTION).
6 286 Q. You told us that you first heard about this in the
7 autumn of 1980. Presumably things then started to
8 move quite quickly. You came late to it, you said?
9 A. Yes. I mean it could have. I am not sure when the
10 project started at all but it was around that time.
11 287 Q. Around?
12 A. 1980.
13 288 Q. Around 1980?
14 A. Yes .
15 289 Q. You feel that the project started around 1980. I
16 mean could that have been the autumn of 1980?
17 A. Honestly I couldn't tell you. I just don't know. I
18 mean my situation was that I was being invited into
19 this kind of sure fire thing and was kind of lucky
20 to get into it. So, I am not sure when it started.
21 If you are asking me, "Had it started before I
22 invested or after," I imagine it was some time
23 afterwards. I mean the sort of deal was being put
24 together and I would say also that my investment --
25 probably the other Irish investors had to kind of
26 make way to allow me in to the extent that I was
27 allowed in. They were quite prepared to go it alone
28 and, in fact, subsequently Mr. Keith Smith wanted to
29 buy us all out and we stupidly declined.

1 290 Q. Just so as ... (INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Sorry.
3 291 Q. Why did this venture fail?
4 A. Let me tell you why it failed. First of all we
5 didn't realise that Mr. Smith had the kind of track
6 record that he had. He had been convicted of
7 various things prior to our involvement but his
8 credibility came from Mr. Cummins, who was somebody
9 we knew and respected but Mr. Smith what actually --
10 how it failed was that AIB in New York took a first
11 charge on the property at, you know, when they lent
12 the money. In fact they gave the money to Roadhaven
13 before they secured their charge.
14 292 Q. AIB lent the money to Roadhaven?
15 A. Either Lynbrett or Roadhaven, I am not sure. I
16 actually think they gave it directly to Roadhaven.
17 293 Q. Because Roadhaven would have owned the actual site?
18 A. Exactly.
19 294 Q. And the charge was a charge on the site?
20 A. Yes .
21 295 Q. I take it?
22 A. Yes, and exactly.
23 296 Q. Yes?
24 A. And AIB employed their own lawyers in New York to
25 put their security in place. As it turns out the
26 lawyers in New York engaged a firm I think in
27 Phoenix, Arizona, to put the security in place and
28 they mis-registered the charge. From memory the
29 charge was in Pinal County, P-i-n-a-1, instead of

1 Pena County, where this resort was and so our charge
2 was defective.
3 297 Q. Yes?
4 A. The bank discovered this subsequently and this is
5 what gave rise to the litigation between us and the
6 bank. They discovered this subsequently and when
7 they went to re-register their charge they found
8 that Mr. Smith had given the charge to another bank
9 for £15 million. Now, the bank did not tell us this
10 but they claimed that they indicated it to Mr.
11 Collins, and this was by telephone, but they said
12 that they were correcting it.
13 298 Q. Yes?
14 A. So, when the law firm went to correct it and get a
15 charge they found that there was somebody in ahead
16 of us for £15 million or something in excess of
17 £10 million but that was never conveyed to me. The
18 bank say they told Mr. Collins. He claims that they
19 didn't. We believe, I believe, that they told him
20 in a way which kind of covered their backsides and
21 he didn't quite understand what they were telling
22 him. They have said they told him by telephone.
23 The bank's telephone records are missing for the
24 period in question. We ended up suing the bank and
25 the lawyers and the bank called our guarantees and
26 the whole thing ended up in a settlement because the
27 bank had more money than we had.
28 299 Q. Yes?
29 A. The lawyers contributed to the settlement and the
46
1 bank contributed to the settlement and what happened
2 in the end was the bank in Dublin actually called
3 our guarantees on New Year's Day when The Statute Of
4 Limitations ran out, would have run out in the
5 United States. They delivered the summons by
6 courier on New Year's Day on motorbikes to us in
7 Cork. It was just a disaster.
8 300 Q. Effectively, therefore AIB lent $2.77 million to the
9 company which was doing the development?
10 A. Yes .
11 301 Q. Your contributions would have been in Lynbrett
12 Trust?
13 A. Via Lynbrett Trust.
14 302 Q. And Lynbrett Trust would then have subscribed for
15 shares in Roadhaven?
16 A. Presumably.
17 303 Q. Is that the way it was?
18 A. I think so, yes. We didn't have any shares directly
19 in Roadhaven. I mean this seems to be the case.
20 304 Q. Did you at any stage see any accounts for
21 Lynbrett Trust?
22 A. Never, no.
23 305 Q. You never saw any accounts?
24 A. No.
25 306 Q. Therefore, the whole accounting process for Lynbrett
26 is, as far as you are concerned, clouded?
27 A. Well, its not only clouded. I never seen anything
28 at all, ever.
29 307 Q. Okay. Mr. Dineen, I think that the thing which

1 would be particularly helpful would be if you could
2 obtain a little bit more clarity, perhaps from AIB,
3 about the background to why they suggested to you
4 the unusual transaction of raising the $50,000 in
5 Ireland?
6 A. You see I didn't raise it in Ireland. I have
7 actually tried to obtain that from them. I haven't
8 been able to do it because what -- effectively I
9 raised the money from AIB in New York. Now, the
10 first payment was certainly sent to Guinness & Mahon
11 in Dublin. Now, the reason for that was that I was
12 late into the process and it was to facilitate my
13 entry into the process it was done in that way and
14 it was regularised in a short period of time when I
15 was in New York and all the paperwork was put in
16 place. That was the only reason for that and I
17 can't obtain anything from the bank. I mean it is
18 twenty years ago.
19 308 Q. Have you asked the bank if they have any records?
20 A. I have, yes, and they haven't. The only thing they
21 have are the records. The bank of New York have
22 told me what the transaction was
23 because...(INTERJECTION).
24 309 Q. The bank in New York have some records?
25 A. I have given them to the Revenue, yes.
26 310 Q. Are those...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. No, no. What they have done is they have said that
28 they lent me £50,000 in two tranches -- $50,000,
29 sorry.
1 311 Q. The bank in New York said they lent you $50,000?
2 A. Yes, and that has all been confirmed to the Revenue
3 Commissioners.
4 312 Q. Yes?
5 A. In 1993.
6 313 Q. Does the bank in New York say when in 1980 they lent
7 you that money?
8 A. They don't because I have asked them. They say it
9 was around about that time. That is all that they
10 can say because they don't have their records, they
11 haven't the records.
12 314 Q. Okay. I do not have any other questions.
13 A. Yes.
14
15 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. PATRICK DINEEN BY
16 MR. ROWAN
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
49
1 MR. PATRICK DINEEN WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 315 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Have you any objection
5 Mr. Coveney to
6 us...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Dineen.
8 316 Q. Sorry, Mr. Dineen, to us making enquiries of the
9 bank about this matter?
10 A. None whatsoever, no.
11 317 Q. Very good. Mr. Dineen, that is everything I think
12 we require. This evidence will be typed up now and
13 the transcript will be prepared and we would be glad
14 if you could come in and sign it?
15 A. Yes.
16 318 Q. Ms. Cummins will be in touch with you about it.
17 A. Of course. Thank you very much, Chairman. Thank
18 you Mr. Rowan.
19 MR. O'FLYNN: May I say just one thing
20 just to clarify my own
21 position?
23 MR. O'FLYNN: I was not involved in the
24 Lynbrett matter at all
25 until the actual settlement in 1994, in that I
26 represented the four people concerned making the
27 settlement at that time. However, I wasn't involved
28 at the earlier stage. I knew nothing about the
29 Lynbrett transaction or wasn't consulted.
50
2 MR. O'FLYNN: By any of them
3 previously to 1994.
4 A. Unfortunately.
5 MR. O'FLYNN: So, anything I know would
6 be what I have gleaned
7 from my investigations for the Moriarty Tribunal for
8 Mr. Coveney's Estate and so on.
10 MR. O'FLYNN: And I have given all that
11 information to you.
12 319 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very good. In relation to
13 that Mr. Dineen, you have
14 indicated to us that your accountants, who were
15 involved with the Revenue in raising the matter with
16 the Revenue?
17 A. Yes .
18 320 Q. That is Nathan & Co?
19 A. Exactly.
20 321 Q. You say in your letter that Nathan & Co furnished
21 full details of the venture to the Revenue
22 Commissioners ?
23 A. Yes .
24 322 Q. Some years ago?
25 A. Absolutely.
26 323 Q. Is there any objection to you giving us their
27 correspondence, if you like, to...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. I thought you had it.
29 324 Q. We have not got it. You can get it to us, can you?
1 A. I can, of course, yes.
2 325 Q. That is the documents, the correspondence, that
3 Nathan & Co had?
4 A. Yes. What actually happened was I was settling my
5 affairs with the Revenue Commissioners. This whole
6 Lynbrett thing received some press coverage, because
7 of who we were I suppose in any event, because the
8 bank had called in our guarantees and the whole
9 thing had gone bankrupt and we were in litigation
10 with the bank. So, the Revenue Commissioners asked
11 me what was all this about and I told them exactly
12 and it was around about time that I sold my company
13 and I was trying to establish a capital loss and
14 unfortunately all -- by the way all of the money
15 that we put into Roadhaven was put in by way of
16 loan. We lent the money to them. We actually never
17 ended up with shares in Roadhaven. It was a loan we
18 made to them and the Revenue Commissioners would not
19 allow me offset my half a million dollar loss
20 against my capital gain for shares in my company.
21 So, it was in that context that...(INTERJECTION).
22 326 Q. You will get us the documents then?
23 A. I will, of course, Chairman.
24 327 Q. Very well?
25 A. Yes .
26 328 Q. Thank you.
27
29
52
SddxJôr
VbvxW^
/srfrtfv Private i ml fTmtfihntfrf
3._ U.S. Property vetitnrc:

In 1980 a an Irish American, who lived part of the year in Co Coric and wbo
was wcUkiwwntotwo friends of mine, tad 'approached them about
a possible property investment in Arizona. "lib was being promoted by arealestate colleague
of. There was a third American Involved as well,
Tbo initial property investment relatedtothe development nmPhoerix, Arizona of a 90 acre

residential trailer park (mobile homes) and associated amenities. These lype of developments
in a 'sun belt' location like Phoenix were particularly attractive at that line to seasonal retired
residents from the colder Northern States.
The 3 American investors w«xe advised, for U.S. tax pimmng purposes, to seek oat 50% non
U.S. partners andtooperate from an acceptable and established off-shore location.
I was asked by either ,or. iflwoddbehnerestedinlocJdngatfeemeritsof
the proposal. They asked afew other businessfriends as well. The group comprised, in
addition to and wdmysdt
At that time.. had extensive business brteseste in tte
bankingrelationshipwith AIB in New York. Accordingly, he approached them about putting
up the bulk of theftmds for this properly investment A detailed assessment of the project was
lmrf for A f o r ihe proposed Irish participants by the New Yoric office of property
consultants, Jones Lang Wootton. They visited the site in Arizona and reported positively on
the development and profit projections (SlOm). Guinness and Mahon who ware well known
to most of die Irish group were also contacted. Mr.Desmond Traynor of feat bank advised
about the kind of structure required to meet the demands«fthe project.
The structure eirdsaged the establishmeitf of an entity knflfc^ Guinness
Mahon Cayman "Rust Ltd was thetaasteefortoe LyribrettTtast The beneficiaries of Lynbrett
Trust were to befive registered Cayman Islands companies. 1 would be given an option to
acquire one of these companies, Eclipse Holdings Ltd, on terms which I shall outline later.
Underfee arrangements negotiated with AIB New York, AIB would lend $2.775m to Lynbrett
who In rum would lend it on to company, Roadhaven Resorts Inc. This was
an Arizona corporation responsiblefor carrying out die developments. Legal and tax advice was
obtained to confirm that the proposed structure was in conformity with U.S. tax law.
Personal Joint and several guarantees were required by AIBfrom thefive Irish participants. 1
signed the guarantee at AIB, 66 South Mall, Cork on the 23rd of June 1981.
ax
Lynhrett was to participate in 50M GffcejrofiJslhmlfcedewdoiM^
loans). The U^S. investors were entitled to the other50%. It was envisaged that the group
would involve itself in other similar property opportunities and a second project, Bullhead City,
was under active consideration.
In addition to tie AIB. borrowing of S2.775m the lynbrett Tftst was also required to put up
$950 000 in the initial development, My«hawofthatamountadto$2125<»(22%).I negotiated
a venture capital type miaugemcat with Desmond Traynor actingfig Quinocii Mahon Cayman
Trust Ltd. That arrangement involved G. M. Cayman Trust providing a loanftrility of up to
$500000 to Eclipse Holdings Ltd. for the purpose of investing in the Lynbrett Trust
Eclipse Holdings was entitled to it's share (approx. 22%) of Lynbrett's profits. Eclipse was
owned by G. M. Cayman Trust and it hadtorepay O. M. C. T. the amount loaned together with
40% of Eclipse's share of Lynbrett's profits. This 40% profit share was in lien of interest. ID
exchange liar my personally guaranteeing £50 000 sterling of Eclipse's borrowings I was given
an optiontoacquire all of the shares in Eclipse at par (£S<J) as soon as the amount loaned to
Eclipse bad been repaid together with the 4Q% profit share. This structure made good
commercial sense for me in that it limited myfinancial exposure while entitling me to 60% of
Eclipse's profits. Unfortunately events conspired to ensure that I never acquired Eclipse
Holdings.
Despite tie attractive projections and extensive due diligence carried out by AIB and ourselves
the enterprise ultimately turned out to be an unmitigated disaster and an absolute nightmare for
the other Irish participants and mysel£ Roadhavenfiled for bankruptcy in 1985; the securities
put in place against our borrowingsftom AIB by AIB's lawyetrs proved to be defective and
practically worthless andwe were left fight^&riumb«ofac*niistottf to
AIB New York called on the guarantors, by letter dated February 18th 1986, to pay, within 30
days,fite sum of $2 527 730. A protracted and publidsediisputefollowed between AIB, their
lawyers and ourselves which was ultimately settled out of court late in 1993. That settlement
involved each of thefive of us in net payments of pnSftcally $400 000 (spread over six
instalments). To add to our misery one of the five,' was unable to meet Us
commitments imder the terms of the guarantee and the otherfour have had to pay his share as
well which brings the overall cost for each of the four 19 to practically S500 000. (S2.4m to
AIB less $425000from lawyers.)
G. M. Cayman Trust called on my £50000 sterling guarantee by letter dated August 14th 1987
and I paid it, in Irish Pounds, in October 1987. To do so I had to sell 50000 shares in Ann
Energy. I endorsed die IR£ chequefrom Stockbrokers Goodbcdy lames Capel and sent it to
Desmond Traynor with a covering letter, bothfor transmission toG.M. Cayman Trust. Receipt
was acknowledged by letterfrom G. M. C. T. dated October 29th 1987.
aa
A O'Flynn Exhams & Partners
Solicitors
"""'*• 58 Suuih Mall, Cork.
Telephone-(021!-127 7738
Facsimile (021) 427 2117
iimail: ofexcoik'G'incJitjo.ie

FOF/AOD/27291/1 C/D06/NPM 14 August 2001
STRICTLY PERSONAL
The Inspectors
Office of the Inspectors
Third Floor .tit #
Trident House " f W ^ 4ljl(
Blackrock
CO DUBLIN
RE: INSPECTORS PRELIMINARY CONCLUSIONS

MR PATRICK J. DINEEN
4'iii
Dear Inspectors,
We refer to your letter of the 18 th July to Mr Dineen and in particular to the document
therewith entitled
"Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions re: Mr Patrick J. Dineen"

We have been requested by Mr Dineen to respond to the document as follows:-
businessman and company director".
Paragraph Two.
With reference to this paragraph it is stated in the third sentence thereof that "The Trust
had as beneficiaries five Cayman companies, representing the interests of thefive Irish
members of the consortium." The only evidence available of the structure of the
Lynbrett transaction is contained in the Memorandum prepared in January 1998 by the late
Mr Hugh P. Coveney in which he indicated that, "The beneficiaries Lynbrett Trust were
to be five registered Cayman Islands companies. I would be given an option to
acquire one of these companies, [ ] Ltd. on terms which I shall outline later."
There was no documentation or other evidence available to show if these options were ever
put in place and Mr Dineen's uncertainty about the name of the company to represent him
would suggest that an option for Mr Dineen may not have been put in place at all. We
would therefore suggest that the final two sentences of the second paragraph be omitted and
that in lieu thereof the following sentence be inserted:-
"The beneficiaries of the Lynbrett Trust were to be five registered Cayman Islands
Companies and it was intended that Mr Dineen would be given an option to acquire
one of these Companies. Mr Dineen was uncertain as to the name of the Company
intended to represent his interest but other information available to the Inspectors
suggest that it was Overseas Nominees Limited."
Paragraph 3.
This appears to be in order.
^ INSPECTORS PRELIMINARY CONCLUSIONS.

We would suggest that this Conclusion be amended to read as follows:-
"The Inspectors conclude that Mr Dineen was a Client of Ansbacher only to the extent
that he was intended to be beneficially entitled to the interest held by Overseas
Nominees Limited in the Lynbrett Trust of which CMCT was the Trustee. There was
no evidence to show that Mr Dineen was an Ansbacher Depositor".
We would be obliged if you would consider the foregoing.
As you will appreciate our Client's concern arises from the prospect that the Inspectors
Preliminary Conclusions will find their way into the hands of the Media as has occurred in
respect of other similar documents in recent times. The simplistic conclusion "That Mr
Patrick Dineen was a client of Ansbacher" would be seized upon by the Media, even
though same is qualified in the Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions - the Media would, if
2729l/l/68<MLT-l.DOC
given the opportunity, conclude that Mr Dineen was an Ansbacher Depositor which Mr
Dineen was not and has consistently confirmed. In short, he would be perceived in the
public domain as being untruthful. It is extremely important to Mr Dineen that his good
reputation be maintained. His standing in the business community is such that anything
relating to Ansbacher would involve publicity.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully,
"^-vr
O'FLYNN E & PARTNERS
2729 l/l/G844LT-1.DOC
Appendix XVI
(a) Affidavit of Hamilton Ross opposing Ansbacher's application to release

documents to the Inspectors
(b) Poinciana Trust Deed
(c) Letter dated 22 June 2001 from Barry B Benjamin to Tony Traynor
(d) Signatories to the Hamilton Ross accounts
(e) Examples of instruction to IIB re Hamilton Ross account written on Ansbacher

headed paper
(f) Letter to IIB re Hamilton Ross dated 3 December 1992
(g) Examples of Hamilton Ross headed paper with Ansbacher's address and
phone/fax numbers
(h) Letter 7 December 1992, Hamilton Ross reference JDT/JW to IIB
(i) Letter 4 January 1993 seeking £20,000 for B.E.L. Secretarial Services;
Letter dated 18 February 1993 seeking £50 payable to Kentford Securities Ltd
Letter 15 March 1993 seeking a cheque for £10,000 payable to Bank of Ireland
(j) Letter from Central Bank confirming that Hamilton Ross did not have a licence
Appendix XVI (a)
HAR-26-Ot HON 04:57 PM
.N THE GRAND COURT OF THE CAYMAN ISLANDS

Filed by Hamilton Ross
Co. Limited
( Barry Bret Benjamin
Affidavit in opposition
^ March, 2001
CAUSE NO. 69 OF 2001
IN THE MATTER of the Confidential Relationships (Preservation) Law (1995 Revision)
(1) I am a director of Hamilton Ross Co. Limited ("Hamilton Ross") by which I am duly
authorised to make this Affidavit in opposition to an application that Ansbacher (Cayman)
Limited ("ACL'1) has made to this Honourable Court requesting a declaration under Sections
3(2)(b)(v) or, alternatively, a direction under Section 4 of the Confidential Relationships
(Preservation) Law (1995 Revision) ("the Law") to divulge the confidential information set
out in the Schedule to ACL's Summons dated l s l February, 2001. Hamilton Ross has been
served with notice of ACL's application.
(2) I crave leave to refer to my Affidavit dated?*4 March, 2001 filed in this Cause on behalf of
Poinciana Fund Limited and Worldwide Management and Consultancy Services Limited.
On behalf of Hamilton Ross, which has been served with the application, I adopt the reasons
set out in that Affidavit as to why ACL's application should be refused and add the further
reasons referred to below for such refusal.
(3) As a preface, I have no idea whether the clients of Hamilton Ross have or have not paid Irish
tax on their funds in the hands of Hamilton Ross nor do I know whether they are required to
do so, but I am advised that it is against the public policy of the Cayman Islands to assist a
6 5
P. 14/15
MfiR-26-01' MOM 04:58 PM
» wide-ranging information gathering exercise which is aimed at enforcing the revenue laws
of another country and the more so when the person seeking the permission to make the
disclosure is motivated in so doing by threats or by fear of reprisals. It is on those bases that
Hamilton Ross makes this further, objection to this application by ACL.
(4) ACL admits in paragraph 2.6 of the Affidavit of John Bryan Bothwell dated 1 s t February,
2001 filed in this Cause ("the Bothwell Affidavit") that the creditors) on whose behalf the
Inspectors were to conduct the examination of the affairs of ACL to determine whether ACL
had attempted to defraud any creditors either of itself or any other person, were none other
than the Irish Revenue.
(5) Since it is clear that the disclosure of the confidential information can only be used for the
purpose of assisting a foreign country to enforce its revenue laws and the enforcement itself
has for many years, I am advised, been held to be against public policy, it follows that
assisting in the disclosure, when those affected or who might be affected object, must
equally be against Cayman Islands public policy even if the person in possession of the
information were prepared voluntarily to give it up. .
(6) In this case, ACL has admitted that it is prepared "voluntarily" to give up the information to
the Inspectors purely as an appeasement measure in the hope that other pressures on ACL
will be relieved. Indeed, in paragraph 4.2 of the Bothwell Affidavit it is stated that "It has
been suggested by the Inspectors that the Irish High Court could, at least in theory, act upon
their report by making a winding up order in respect of ACL of its own. motion." This can
only reasonably be regarded in the context of the circumstances set out in the Bothwell
Affidavit, as a not too subtle threat with the clear objective of bringing pressure to bear on
ACL to give up the information or seek permission to do so. It surely must also be against
Cayman Islands public policy to render assistance in those circumstances.
I am further advised that the pressure brought to bear on ACL as outlined above also
constitutes a breach by the Inspectors of Section 5(1 )(b) of the Law for which criminal
sanctions can be imposed.
P. 15/15
1 HON 04:58 PM
<S) For the further reasons appearing in this Affidavit, 1 respectfully request this Honourable
Court to deny ACL's application. No declaration under Section 3(2)(b)(v) nor any direction
under Section 4 of the Law should be made or given.
i
SWORN to at George Town, Grand )

Cayman this day of March, )
2001 before me:- • )
)
m"BpjjAMIN
(ZdMl1
)
NOTARY PUBLIC
THIS AFFIDAVIT is filed by Myers & Alberga, whose address for service is One Regis Place,
90 Fort Street, P.O. Box 472, George Town, Grand Cayman B.W.I., attorneys-at-law for
Hamilton Ross Co. Limited.
Appendix XVI (b)
George Town, Grand Cayman
TIIIS DECLARATION OF TRUST is made the SVL day of Hc<^ , \09Z_, BY

J
THE ORIGINAL TRUSTEE
WHEREAS the Scheduled Property has been transferred to the Original Trustee to the intent that
the Original Trustee must hold it on the trusts declared in this Declaration of Trust.
»
NOW THIS DEED WITNESSES as follows:-
1. In this Declaration of Tmst, unless inconsistent with the context or subject matter or
circumstances:
(1) "The Beneficiaries" means the persons specified in the First Schedule as amended
from time to time in accordance with clause 2 and "Beneficiary" must be
construed accordingly;
(2) "The Original Trustee" means JOHN ANDREW FURZE of Ansbacher House,
""George Town, Grand Cayman, British West Indies.
(3) "The Perpetuity Date" means the day on which the shortest of the following
periods expires:-
(a) The period ending on the hundredth anniversary of the date of this Trust;
or
(b) The period of twenty (20) years from the death of the last survivor qf all
descendants male and female of King George Sixth of England living on
the date of this Trust; or
(c) The period ending on such date as the Trustee appoints by deed.
(4) "Property" means assets of every description wherever situate and includes real
personal intangible, movable or immovable property of every description and
wherever situate and include investments, policies, cash and choses in action.
(5) "The Protector" means JOHN ANTHONY COLLINS of Ansbacher House,

George Town, Grand Cayman, British West Indies, or any successor (whether an
individual or body corporate) appointed in accordance with clause 23.
(6) "The Scheduled Property" means the property set out in the Second Schedule;
(7) "This Tmst" means the trust declared by this Deed which will be known as the
POINC1ANA Trust;
(8) "The Trust Fund" means:-
(a) The Scheduled Property,
(b) Any further or additional Property which any person donates to or vests or
causes to be vested in the Trustee to be held on the trusts and with and
subject to the powers and provisions of this Trust, and
(c) The Property for the time being and from time to time representing the
Scheduled Property and the further or additional Property (if any) referred
to in sub-paragraph (b), and all accumulations of income and capital from
time to time;
(9) "The Trustee" means the Original Trustee or any other trustee of this Trust for the
time being and from time to time;
(10) Words of one gender include any oilier gender and singular words include the
plural and vice versa.
(11) "Person" includes a corporation.
(12) A duly or obligation imposed is to be performed, and a povyer or discretion

conferred is exercisable in each case, from time to time.
(1) The Trustee DECLARES that it holds and will manage the Trust Fund on the
trusts and with and subject to the powers and provisions set out in this Deed. All
land must be held on trust for sale with power to postpone sale.
(2) The Trustee may at any time during the existence of this Trust accept any
additional Property which any person donates to the Trust Fund either personally
or by will.
(3) The Trustee may at any time by deed amend the First Schedule so as to add any
person or class of persons whatever now in existence or born before the
Perpetuity Date as a Reneficiary, and that person or class of persons will for all
purposes become a Beneficiary as of the date of the deed, or such later date as
the deed specifies.
(4) The Trustee may likewise at any time by deed amend the First Schedule so as to
exclude any person or class of persons from being a Beneficiary as of the date of
the deed, or from such oilier date subsequent to the date of the deed as is
specified in it, but without prejudice to the Truslec's power to name that person
or class of persons to be a Reneficiary at a future dale.
(1) The Trustee must hold all of the capital and income of the Trust Fund in trust for
all or such one or more exclusively of the others or other of the Beneficiaries at
such age or time or respective ages or times if more than one in such shares and
with such trusts for their respective benefit and such provisions for their
respective advancement, maintenance and education at the Trustee's discretion 'as
the Trustee by any deed revocable or irrevocable executed before the Perpetuity
Date appoints.
(2) No appointment can. be made or be revoked or be revocable on or after the

Perpetuity Date.
(3) The Trustee for the time being may make or revoke any revocable appointment
notwithstanding that the person who makes the appointment and revokes the
appointment may not be the same person.
(1) In default of and subjcct to any appointment made under clause 3, the Trustee
may until the Perpetuity Date pay or apply the whole or such part as the Trustee
thinks fit of the income of the Trust Fund as it arises to or for the maintenance,
education, advancement or benefit of all or any one or more of the Beneficiaries
for the time being in existence in such proportions or manner as the Trustee in
its discretion thinks fit.
(2) Subject as set out in subclause (I), the Trustee must until the Perpetuity Date deal
with the income of the Trust Fund or so much of it as is not paid or applied as
set out in clauses 3 and 4(1), by accumulating it as an accretion to the capital of
the Trust Fund.
In default and subject to clauscs 3 and 4, the Trustee must hold all of the capital and
income of the Trust Fund on trust for such of the Bcneficiaries as are in existence
immediately before the Perpetuity Date, if more than one, in such shares as in its
discretion it thinks fit or, if there is no such person, then on trust absolulely for any
charitable institution mentioned in the Third Schedule.
The Trustee may at its discretion at any time pay or apply Ihe whole or any part of the
Trust Fund to or for (he maintenance, education, advancement or benefit of all or any
one or more exclusively of the others or other of Ihe Beneficiaries in such manner as the
Trustee, in its discretion, thinks fit, without being liable to account for the exercise of
that discretion, including purchasing an annuity for any one or more of the Bcneficiaries.
Notwithstanding any of Ihe trusts, powers and provisions in this Deed, the Trustee may
at any time before the Perpetuity Date by deed, revocable or irrevocable, release any
power, right or discretion under this Trust.
>
No benefit devolving 011 any Bcneficiary under this Trust may form or constitute a
portion of any communal or joint estate of that Beneficiary but that benefit will be and
remain Ihe sole, separate and exclusive property of that Beneficiary and, should any
Beneficiary be married and be subject to laws of community property, then any benefit
so devolving will be expressly excluded from the community and, in the case of the
Beneficiary being female, that benefit will also he free from the interference, control or
marital power of any husband of Dial Bcneficiary. In this clause, the word "benefit"
includes Property and Ihe provisions of this clause apply not only to Ihe benefits actually
devolving on any Beneficiary but also to the Property for the time being representing it
and the income of it.
In addition to the powers vested in trustees by Jaw, the Trustee without the consent of
any Beneficiary has and may exercise the following powers: -
(1) To retain any Property belonging to or forming part of Ihe Trust Fund in the
actual state or condition in which the Trustee receives it for so long as the
Trustee thinks proper without being answerable for any loss occasioned by so
retaining it.
(2) To sell or otherwise dispose of all or any Property at any time forming part of
the Trust Fund in such manner by public auction or private contract and for such
price in money or other consideration and on such terms and conditions as the
Trustee thinks proper am! to receive the consideration or price on such terms and
conditions as the Trustee thinks fit and give receipts for it.
(3) To exercise all the voting powers attaching to any shares, stocks, debentures or
other securities or notes at any time forming part of the Trust Fund.
(4) To exchange Property for other Property of a like or different nature and for such
consideration and on such terms and conditions as the Trustee considers
advisable.
(5) To compromise and settle for such consideration and 011 such terms and
conditions as the Trustee considers advisable all matters arising in relation to this
Trust or the Trust Fund and all those compromises and settlements will be
binding on all the Beneficiaries.
(6) To surrender and deliver up any securities or notes or other Property forming part
of Ihe Trust Fund, for such consideration and on such terms and conditions as the
Trustee approves, to any company or corporation reducing its capital and the
Trustee may receive that consideration in (lie form of cash, securities or other
assets as is agreed between the Trustee and that other company or corporation.
• (7) To consent to any re-organisation or reconstruction of any company or

corporation whose shares, indebtedness, notes or securities form part of the Trust
Fund and lo consent to any reduction of capital or other dealings with those
shares, securities, or other Property as the Trustee considers advantageous or
desirable.
(8) To invest or deal with any money forming part of the Trust Fund without regard
to the provisions of any statute regulating trusts in any Property or business
whatever (including hut not limited-lojhc purchase of any freehold or leasehold
<l/<ln».cihtc.prol
land with or without any house or other buildings on it or goods for the beneficial
occupation, use or enjoyment of any Bcneficiary) on such personal credit with or
without security and with or without interest as the Trustee in its discretion thinks
fit, to the intent that the Trustee will have the same full and unrestricted power
of dealing with and investing and varying investments and Property in all respects
as a beneficial owner. <
(9) To make speculative investments if it thinks advisable without limitation by any

"prudent man rule" or rule of reasonableness or any other statute or rule of law
regarding investments by trustees and the making of those investments must not
in any event be construed as a breach of trust; and to open accounts, margin or
otherwise, with brokerage firms, banks or others wherever in the world, to invest
the funds of the Trust Fund in, and to conduct, maintain and operate those
accounts directly or through an agent for the purchase, sale and exchange of,
commodities, slocks, bonds, notes and other securities and in connection with so
doing, to borrow or raise money, incur obligations, obtain and give guarantees
and engage in all other activities necessary for or incidental to conducting,
maintaining and operating those accounts.
(10) To pay out of the income or capital of the Trust Fund all the costs of and
incidental to the preparation execution and stamping of this Trust.
»
(II) To determine whether any sums received or disbursed are on account of capital
or income or partly on account of one and partly on account of the other and in
what proportions, and the decisions of the Trustee, whether made in writing or
implied from its acts will he conclusivc and binding on all Bcneficiaries.
(12) To carry oh any trade or business anywhere in the world whether alone or in
partnership whether limited or general.
(13) To lend the whole or any part of the Trust Fund to any Beneficiary or any
company referred to in subclause (20) of this clause or any partnership referred
to in subclause (12) of this clause and to appropriate and apply it or the income
of it in securing (by any means however) any obligation of that Beneficiary,
company, or partnership, or in guaranteeing or becoming surety for him on such
terms as to repayment or otherwise and whether interest free or at interest and
with or without security as the Trustee thinks fit.
(14) To be employed and remunerated or otherwise profit as a director or other ofrcer

or employee or as agent or adviser or otherwise however of any company or
' other corporation or undertaking or firm whatever at any time or in any way
connected or dealing with the Trust Fund or in which the Trustee is in any way
interested, or dealing with or acquiring any Properly from or selling or letting
any Property to tlie Trustee and to relain as its-absolute property (and without
being liable to account for it) any remuneration, fees or profits received by it in
any such capacity notwithstanding that its appointment or office as that director,
officer, employee, agent or adviser has been obtained or is held or retained in
right or by means of its position as the Trustee or one of the Trustees.
(15) To enter into any indemnity in favour of any former trustee or other person in
respect of any contingent or prospective liability (including any tax, duty or other
fiscal imposition) in respect of the Trust Fund or the income of it or otherwise
in connection with this Trust and to apply the whole or any part of the Trust Fund
or the income of it by way of mortgage, pledge or otherwise however as security
for that indemnity.
(16) (a) To employ and pay for such professional or other assistance as the Trustee
thinks necessary in the discharge of its duties, including but not limited to
lawyers, accountants, agents, advisers, managers and employees of any
kind.
trvil/&-<Hdni.ci1iie pre*
4
a s
1
, (b) To act on the opinion or advice of or information obtained from any
••''v financial adviser, lawyer, valuer, surveyor, broker, auctioneer, accountant
or other expert or professional person, but so that the Trustee will not be
responsible for any loss, depreciation or damage occasioned by acting or
not acting in accordance with that opinion, advice, or information.
i
(17) To determine all questions and matters of doubt which may arise t'h the course of
the management, administration, realisation, liquidation, partition or winding up
of the Trust Fund.
t
(18) To erect buildings on and make improvements to any Property forming part of
Ihe Trust Fund and also to conduct farming operations on and lease all or any
part of that Property.
(19) To institute and defend legal proceedings and to proceed to ihe final end and
determination of them or compromise them as the Trustee considers advisable.
(20) To incorporate or acquire the shares of any company in any place in the world
at Ihe expense of the Trust Fund with limited or unlimited liability for the purpose
of, among other things, acquiring or holding the whole or any part of the Trust
F_und; ant I the consideration on the sale of the Trust Fund or any part of it to any
f ••,'":) company incorporated or acquired pursuant lo this subclause may consist wholly
..'"'•*' or partly of fully paid shares or debentures or debenture stock or other securities
or notes of the company and may be credited as fully paid and may be allotted
lo or otherwise vested in the Trustee and will be capital money in the Trustee's
hands.
(21) To exercise or concur in exercising the voting and other rights attaching to any
shares or securities for the time being forming part of the Trust Fund so as to
become a director or other officer or employee of any company or other entity
and to be entitled to vote and to be paid and to retain for the Trustee's use and
benefit reasonable remuneration for those services.
(22) To raise or borrow money on the security of the Trust Fund or any part of it at
any time and pay or apply the money so borrowed or raised in any manner which
money forming part of the capital of the Trust Fund may be paid or applied and
to execute and deliver such security documentation for loans or indebtedness or
other obligations as is required; and to give guarantees and indemnities and by
any means to secure liability under them oil the Trust Fund or any part of it.
(23) To deposit the securities, title deeds and other documents belonging or relating
to this Trust for safe custody with any bank or trust company (including itself).
(24) To hold any part of the Trust Fund in the name of any nominee of the Trustee.
(25) If income or capital becomes distributable to a minor Bcneficiary or to a

Beneficiary under other legal disability or to a Beneficiary not adjudicated
incompetent but who, because of illness or mental or physical disability, is in the
Trustee's opinion unable properly to administer that distribution, then the Trustee
may pay that distribution in any one or more of Ihe following ways as it thinks
best:-
(a) directly to that Beneficiary';
(b) to the legally appointed guardian or committee of that Beneficiary;
(c) to a parent or some relative or friend for the care and support and
education of that Beneficiary; or
(d) by the Trustee applying those amounts directly for the benefit of that
Beneficiary;
tnul/*-(IMn*.ciblc.prol
and as regards (b) and (c). without having to sec to the application of them and
the receipt of any such person will constitute a full and final release and discharge
of the Trustee.
(26) If any income, probate, estate or other duty, fee or tax becomes payable in the
Cayman Islands or elsewhere in respcct of die Trust Fund or any (tart of it on the
death of any Beneficiary or otherwise, to pay at its discretion (but in the interest
of the Beneficiaries ami the Trust Fund) all or any part of that duty; fee or tax out
of the Trust Fund with or without recourse against any Beneficiary or to refuse
to pay it or any par^ of it unless indemnified, and to determine the time and
manner of the payment (if any).
(27) Generally in relation to the Trust Fund to perforin all acts of alienation,
hypothecation and other acts of ownership to the same extent and with the same
effect as the Trustee might have done if it had been the bcneficial owner and the
Trustee's decision and action, whether actually made or taken in writing or
implied from the
Trustee's acts, will be conclusive and binding on all the Beneficiaries.
—Notwithstanding any of the trusts, powers and provisions in this Deed, the Trustee may
at any time before the Perpetuity Dale at its discretion by any irrevocable deed, appoint
that the whole or any part of the Trust Fund must subsequently be held on the trusts and
with and subject to the powers and provisions of any other trust (including this present
provision) not infringing the rule against perpetuities applicable to this Trust and
approved by Ihc Trustee and in favour or for the benefit of all or any one or more
exclusively of the other or others of the Beneficiarics. If it makes any such appointment,
the Trustee may transfer to the trustee of that other trust the Properly comprised in the
appointment and then the trusts declared in this Deed concerning that Property will end
and that Properly will for all purposes be subject to the trusts powers and provisions in
that other trust and be subject to and governed by the proper law of that other trust
whether or not that proper law is the proper law of this Trust.
Notwithstanding any of the trusts, powers and provisions in this Deed, the Trustee may
at any lime before the Perpetuity Dale by any irrevocable deed relire as Trusiee and with
Ihe Protector's written approval appoint a new trustee outside the Cayman Islands as
Trustee of this Trust On that appointment being made, the Trustee must immediately hold
the Trust Fund on trust for the new trustee and must transfer it to the new trusiee as soon
as possible. Subsequently, the rights of all persons and Ihe construction and effect of
every provision of this Trust will be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of and be
construed only according lo the law of the country of residence or incorporation of the
new trustee which will become the forum for the administration of this Trust unless any
law, including any rule against perpetuities under that.law, would be infringed by the
provisions of this Deed, in which event, although Ihc forum for Ihe administration of this
Trust will liavc changed Ihe laws of the Cayman Islands will continue to apply as
provided by clause 22. If the Trustee exercises its power under this clause, clauses 17
and 22 will take effect and be subject to the provisions of this clause AND the new
trustee may by deed make such amendments to this Deed as are necessary to ensure that
it is effective and legal in that new jurisdiction.
The Trustee must keep accurate accounis of its trusteeship and may have them audited
annually at Ihe Trust's expense as the Trustee determines, by an accountant or firm of
accountants which the Trustee selects.
The customary expenses in connection with Ihc administration of this Trust including the
Trustee's remuneration and chargcs and of the investment of any part of the Trust Fund
and the collection of income and other sums derivable from it must be charged in the
first instance against the income of the Trust Fund BUT if that is insufficient then against
capital.
The Trustee may, in its discretion appropriate any part of the Trust Fund in its actual
slale or condition of investment at Ihe time of appropriation in or towards satisfaction of
any interest of any person in the Trust Fund as seems just and reasonable to the Trustee.
(1) Any Trustee being a trust company or corporation is entitled to charge and be
paid out of the Trust Fund remuneration in accordance with its' $cale of fees in
force from lime to lime and may, as may its parent company or any subsidiary
or any company in which its parent company is a shareholder, without accounting
for any resultant profit, act as banker to and accept deposits from and perform
any service for the Trust Fund on the same terms as it would make with any
other customer.
(2) Any Trustee being a lawyer, chartered accountant or other person engaged in any
profession or business will be entitled to charge and be paid all usual professional
and other charges for business transacted, time spent and acts done by him or any
partner of his in connection with this Trust, including acts which a Trustee not
being in any profession or business could have done personally.
(3) Any Trustee may on behalf of this Tmst contract or deal with any personfirm or
body corporate with whom it is interested in any way whatever, directly or
indirectly, without the Trustee or that person, firm or body corporate having to
account for any resulting profit.
The Trustee need not give bond or security for the administration of the Tmst Fund or
for the discharge of its duties arising under this Trust.
(1). If there is a Protector, the power of appointing a new trustee of this Trust will be
vested in the Protector, but if there is no Protector, or failing an appointment by
the Protector within fourteen days of a written request from the Trustee to do so,
that power will be vested in the Trustee or the personal representatives or the
liquidator of the last surviving Trustee, and that power will extend to the
'appointment of a new trustee in Ihe place of any Trustee resigning its trusteeship
and also to the appointment of additional trustees up to any number subject to
such limit (if any) as is imposed by law.
(2) Any Trustee may at any time resign the'trusteeship on giving not less than
fourteen (14) days' notice addressed to the other trustees (if any) or, if there are
no other trustees, if a new trustee is appointed in the place of the retiring Trustee,
and the notice of resignation will be taken to operate so as to vest all of the
Property forming the Trust Fund in the continuing Trustee or the new trustee (as
Ihe case may be).
(3) The office of a Trustee will ipso Jnclo end if that trustee, being an individual, is
found lo be a lunatic or .of unsound mind or if he becomes subject to any
bankruptcy laws or, if that Trustee, being a company, enters into liquidation
whether compulsory or voluntary (not being merely a voluntary liquidation for the
purposes of amalgamation or reconstruction).
(4) Notices of all changes in the trusteeship must be endorsed on or attached to this
Deed signed by the surviving or continuing Trustee, if any, and every notice will
be sufficient evidence to any person having dealings with this Trust as to the facts
to which it relates, and all notices of changes in the office of Protector must be
dealt with and will with the necessary changes be evidenced in like manner.
(5) Any person dealing with this Trust may rely on a copy of this Deed and of the
notices endorsed on it or attached to it, certified by the Trustee or the Trustee's
lawyer before a Notary Public, to the same extent as it might rely on the original.
(6) Unless there are fewer than three trustees of this Trust, the Trustee may act by
majority vote.
(1) Every discretion or power conferred on tlie Protector by this Deed will be an
absolute and uncontrolled discretion or power, and every discretion or power
conferred on Ihe Trusiee by this Deed or by law will, unless otherwise expressly
stated to be subject lo Ihe consent or control of Ihc Prolcctor, be an absolute and
uncontrolled discretion or power, and no Trusiee will he held liable for any loss
or damage accruing as a result of Ihc Trustee's concurring or refusing or, failing
lo concur in an exercise of any discretion or power and, during any period that
there is no Prolcclor, every discretion or power of Ihe Trusiee will be an absolute
and uncontrolled discretion or power.
(2) No Trustee (notwithstanding tfiat it is a professional trustee) will be liable for any
error of judgment or mistake of law or other mistake or for anything EXCEPT
the wilful misconduct or wilful breach of trust by that Trustee and except as set
out in this sub-clause each Trustee and Ihe directors, officers and employees of
any coqiorale trustee will have no liability whatever for and must be indemnified
by Ihc Trust Fund against any claims, losses, death duties, taxes and impositions
arising in connection with the Trust Fund or any part of it.
(1) The Trustee may at any time on such terms as it thinks fit, whether for a fixed
period of time or subject to a fixed period of notice or otherwise, and either in
jelation lo the whole of the Trust Fund or to any part of it as may for the time
being be invested in any particular country or group of countries, act as
investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager or employ any person,
firm, or company (including without prejudice lo Ihe generality of the provisions
of Ibis sub-clause any company being Ihe parent company or a'subsidiary
company of Ihe Trustee or any company under common control with or otherwise
associated with the Trustee or any company in which Ihe Trustee is in any way
interested) as an investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager.
(2) The Trustee may give an investment or portfolio manager power to operate a
discretionary account. The Trustee may employ an investment or portfolio
manager on terms that it may sell investments lo and purchase investments from
the Trust Fund, pool trust funds with those of itself and other customers, and
aggregate the Trust Fund's transactions with those of itself and other customers
so as lo average the cost of sales and purchases over a period.
(3) The Trusiee may pay an investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager
such fees, commission or other remuneration and such compensation for expenses
as the Trustee in its discretion thinks fit, and the investment adviser or investment
or portfolio manager will lie entitled to retain for its own use and benefit any
commissions or share of commissions customarily or by usage payable to it in
relation lo any dealing or transaction with or concerning the Trust Fund or any
part of it; AND if Ihe Trustee or any parent, subsidiary or associated or other
company mentioned in this clause acts as investment adviser or investment or
portfolio manager, it is entitled to remuneration and commission and generally to
act in accordance with its published terms and conditions in force from lime to
time for acting in that capacity.
(4) No Trustee will incur any liability or be in any way responsible for any loss
which may be incurred as a result of negligence of Ihe investment adviser or
portfolio manager or anything done or not done as a result of any dealings of or
advice or recommendations given or purporting lo have been given by an
investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager (whether in writing or by
.cablegram or orally or by telephone or otherwise) or for any omission lo take any
action in the absence or through nonreceipt of that advice or those
recommendations from Ihe investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager
and so that, in particular but. without prejudice lo Ihe generality of Ihe provisions
of this sub-clause, no Trustee will be liable for any failure to diversify the
investment of the Trust Fund or any part of il.
The Trustee need not interfere with or lake any active part in Ihe management or conduct
of the business of any company wherever resident or incorporated in which Ihe Trust is
.cibtc.prot 8
interested although holding the whole or a majority of the shares carrying the control of
the company, and so long as the Trustee has not notice of any act of dishonesty or
misappropriation of money on the part of the directors or employees having the
management of the company the Tmstee may leave the conduct of its business (including
the payment or non-payment of dividends) wholly to those directors or employees; and
no Beneficiary under this Trust will be entitled to require the distribution of any dividend
' hy any company wherever incorporated or resident in which the Trust may be interested
orrequirethe Tmstee to exercise any powers he may have compelling any such
distribution.
Every Trustee or Protector who is a befdy corporate may exercise or concur in exercising
any discretion or power conferred on it by a resolution of that body corporate or by a
resolution of its board of directors or governing body or may delegate therightand
power to exercise or concur in exercising any such discretion or power to any one or
more of its directors, officers or employees.
This Trust is established under the laws of the Cayman Islands and, if and so long as the
powers in clause 11 have not been exercised, therightsof all parties and the construction
and effect of every provision of this Trust is governed by and construed only according
to the laws of the Cayman Islands, which is the forum for the administration of this Trust.
(1) The Protector will automatically cease to be the Protector, if being an individual,
he or she dies or is found to be a lunatic or of unsound mind or becomes subject to
any bankruptcy laws, or if that Protector, being a company, enters into liquidation
whether compulsory or voluntary (not being merely a voluntary liquidation for the
purposes of amalgamation or reconstruction) or in either case if that Protector
makes a valid appointment under sub-clause (2), or resigns.
(2) The Protector may be deed and, if an individual, may also by will irrevocably
appoint any other person to be Protector of this Trust in his place. On the Trustee
being given written notice of the appointment and on the person appointed
consenting in writing to act, that person will become the Protector, immediately if
appointed by deed, or on the death of the testator if appointed by Will.
(3) If notwithstanding the provisions of sub-clause (2), there is at any time no

Protcctorof this Trust, the Tmstee may by deed irrevocably appoint any person
not being a Tmstee to be the Protector.
A Beneficiary of this Trust may not alienate, encumber or hypothecate his interest in it,
nor will the interest of any Beneficiary by subject to claims of his creditors or be liable to
attachment, execution or other process of law.' A Beneficiary may. not pledge, assign,
transfer, sell or in any manner whatever accelerate, anticipate or encumber the income or
capital of the Trust Fund, nor will any income or capital of the Trust Fund be in any
manner subject or liable in the Trustee's hands for the debts, contracts or liabilities of any
Beneficiary or be subject to any assignment or any other voluntary or involuntary
alienation or disposition whatever before the Trustee distributes all or part of that income
or capital to the Beneficiary.
FIRST SCHEDULE
1. James Desmond Traynor, of 134, Howth Road, DUBLIN 3, Ireland and his wife
Dofeen Traynor;
2. Any child or grandchild of the said James Desmond Traynor and Dofeen Traynor.
SECOND SCHEDULE
The total issued equity and loan capital of the following companies incorporated under
the laws of the Cayman Islands, British West Indies:-
POINCIANA FUND LIMITED
HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED
WORLDWIDE MANAGEMENT & CONSULTANCY SERVICES LIMITED
DUMAS'HOLDINGS LIMITED
lUffifiSaiEDIZLH
any other charity which
EXECUTED under Seal by

in the
presence of:-
Witness
"'îirtjf
I n • U/a -tl/drn. ct bl c.prot

Appendix XVI (c)
BARRY B. BENJAMIN POBox
Tel:- 1369
345-949-6090
Fax:- 345-949-6097
Grand Cayman B w '
June 22, 2001

Mr. Tony Traynor
79 Larchfield
Station Road
Dunboyne
Co. Meath
Ireland
VIA email - tmact@qofree.indiao.ie (original to follow by post)
Re: Poinciana Trust
Dear Tony,
Please be advised that Poinciana Trust has no current interest in Hamilton Ross Co. Limited or
Dumas Holdings. Any previous holdings in the companies were disposed of by, John A. Furze MBE,
my predecessor as Trustee. The Assets of the Trust remain substantially as stated in the information
provided you in February 2001.
The decision as to legal action in respect of Poinciana Fund was taken solely on the advice of our
Cayman Islands solicitor. Trust funds were used to cover legal expenses. Neither you nor any
member of your family were, or need be, consulted as to the conduct of the affairs of the trust or in
respect of any legal action.
Hamilton Ross Co. Ltd. was a party to legal action undertaken by a separate firm of attorneys. No
funds of Poinciana Trust were utilized in the action.
If you require any additional assistance, I shall be pleased to be of service.
Yours faithfully,
Barry B. Benjamin
Appendix XVI (d)
We certify that the foilowiu* Resolution of the Board of Directors of Hamilton Boss Co. Limited
19 9 2 an<1
was passed at a meeting of ihe Board held o n i s t h Septenfaer <My
"Resolved that Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited be and is hcrebj jcquested to open » n d / o j
continue one or more account(s) in the name of the Company and that the said Bank be and is
licicby authorised to h o n o u r all cheques, bills of exchange, promissory notes and other
negotiable instruments expressed to be drawn, signed, accepted or made on behalf of the
Company and to act on any instructions relating to the account(s), affairs or transaction* nf the
Company notwithstanding that such action may cause such a c c o u n t s ) to b« overdrawn or any
overdraft thereon to be increased (but without prejudice to the i iglit of the said Bank to refuse to
allow nny overdraft or increase of overd raft) provided they are signed on behalf of the company
by any one director or authorised agent
and that (lie C o m p a n y do borrow from the said Bank on such term.* and subject to such
conditions as may be agreed with the said Bank from lima to time and thai the said Bank be
turnitheri with a copy of the memorandum and A nicies of Association of the Company and
with ihe full names anrl the specimen signatures of the Directors, Secretary and other Ofllc«r» of
/ the Company and that they be from time to time informed In writing, signed by at least one
Director and the Secretary of the Company, of any change that may take place in them and that
this Resolution be communicated to the said Bank and remain in force until notice in writing to
the contrary, signed by at least one Director and the Secretary of the Company, be given to the
said Bank."
Director Dirdstor/Sccrctaiy
LIST OF AUTHORISED SIGNATORIES

Full Name Position Signature
JOHN A. FURZE Director

J . DESMOND TRAYNOR Authorised Agent
D. PADRAIG COLLERY Authorised Aaent
JGAN WILLIAMS Authorised Agent Qpcj^-^ A ML.
Appendix XVI (e)
'lease reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, British Wesc Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Facsimile (80S) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
1st October, 1992.

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to lodge the enclosed cheque for
Stg.£5,066.94 to credit of Hamilton Ross Account No.02/0-1354/81
Yours sincerely, / /
/
L JUL^cx^
ANSBACHER LIMITED
JDT/AJW
A MEMBER OF T H E ANSBACHER INTERNATIONAL TRUST GROUP OF C O M P A N I E S WITH O F F I C E S

ALSO LOCATED IN T H E BAHAMAS. BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS.
G U E R N S E Y . MONACO AND SWITZERLAND
*V063
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British Wes: Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square. Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Teiex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-f26~
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035 >
5th October, 1 992.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
dM '
' Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection an Irish
Pounds cheque for IRE220.00 payable to Kentford Securities
Limited and debit the Sterling cost to Hamilton Ross Account
No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
A MEMBER OF T H E ANSBACHER INTERNATIONAL TRUST C R O U P OF COMPANIES WITH OFFICES

ALSO LOCATED IN THE BAHAMAS. BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS.
GUERNSEY. MONACO AND SWITZERLAND
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands. British Wes: Indies
Dublin 2. Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
10th November, 1992.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2-
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to have the enclosed cheque for
Stg.£12,000.00 lodged to credit of Hamilton Ross Account
No.02/01 354/81 .
A MEMBER O F THE ANSBACHER INTERNATIONAL TRUST CROUP O F COMPANIES WITH OFFICES

ALSO LOCATED IN T H E BAHAMAS. BRITISH VIRGLN ISLANDS.
GUERNSEY, MONACO AND SWITZERLAND
HHCHZ-
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, British West Indies
Tel: 765144/763065 /
Fax: 612035
30th November, 1992.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
We are expecting in either tomorrow or Wednesday a sum of
just in excess of Stg.£1 million. When it arrives would you
immediately transfer to Hamilton Ross Co. Limited Call Deposit
Account No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
JDT/AJW
A MEMBER O F T H E A N S B A C H E R INTERNATIONAL TRUST C R O U P O F COMPANIES WITH OFFICES

ALSO LOCATED IN T H E BAHAMAS. BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS.
GUERNSEY, MONACO A N D SWITZERLAND
Appendix XVI (!)
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands. British West Indies
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax:612035
3rd December, 1992

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to lodge the -enclosed draft for
Stg.£12,000.00 to Hamilton Ross Account No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
For ANSBACHER LIMITED
/AJW
A MEMBER O F T H E ANSBACHER INTERNATIONAL TRUST CROUP OF COMPANIES WITH O F F I C E S

ALSO LOCATED IN T H E BAHAMAS. BRITISH VUTCIN ISLANDS.
G U E R N S E Y . MONACO AND SWITZERLAND
H-t+QIS
Appendix XVI (g)
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square,
DUBLIN 2. Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Tel: 676 5144 Facsimile: (809) 949-7946, (809) 949-5->67
Fax: 676 5013 <
t i'i
t.
Ms. Daire Nolan-Cassidy, 10th November 1994.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Daire,
Please arrange to let us have for collection an Irish Pounds cheque for the Irish Pounds
equivalent of Stg.£6,907.85 payable to CASH and debit the Sterling cost to Hamilton
Ross Account No. 02/013 54/81.
Yours sincerely,
9 A,
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED 5 V
DPC/AJW
Please reply to: p.o. Box 887, Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, _
Dublin 2. Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Tel: 676 5144 Facsimile: (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-5">67
Fax: 676 5013 ,
Ms. Daire Nolan-Cassidy, • 21st November 1994,

Corporate Services,
91 Menrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Daire,
Could you please arrange to let us have for collection a U.S. Dollar draft for
US$8,000.00 payable to INVESTMENTS LTD. and debit the Sterling cost
to Hamilton Ross Account No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
A-J
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED.
DPC/AJW
A/
4>
U1* op)
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. Briush West Indies
Dublin 2.
Tel: 676 5144 Facsimile: (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
Fax: 676 5013
<
1.
Ms. Daire Nolan-Cassidy, 29th November 1994.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Daire,
Could you please arrange to transfer Stg.£10,000.00 to:
Midland Bank
P.O. Box 648
Poultry and Princess Street
London EC2P 2BX
Sort Code: 40-05-30T
for credit to Account of:

Account No.414745 53
Please debit the cost to Hamilton Ross Account No.02/013 54/81.
Yours sincerely.
For HAMILTON ROSS CO, LIMITED
DPC/AJW
rl
Pleasereplyto: P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. Briush West Indies
42 Fitzwiliiam Square, Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2.
Tel: 676 5144 Facsimile: (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
Fax 676 5013
Ms. Daire Nolan-Cassidy, 7th December 1994.

Corporate Services,
91 Menion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Daire,
Could you please arrange to let us have for collection an Irish Pounds cheque for
rR£13,265.00 payable to BANK OF IRELAND and debit the Sterling cost to
Hamilton Ross Account No. 02/013 54/81.
Yours sincerely,
L ^SUU-c
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED
/AJW
t)
jy
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
Dublin 2.
Tel: 676 5144 Facsimile: (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
Fax: 676 5013
Ms. Daire Nolan-Cassidy, • 13 th December 1994.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Daire,
Could you please arrange to let us have for collection an Irish Pounds cheque for
JR£4,000.00 payable to BANK OF IRELAND and debit the Sterling cost to Hamilton
Ross Account No. 02/013 54/81.
Yours sincerely,
DPC/AJW
l+t oo
Appendix XVI (h)
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
Dublin 2. Facsimile: (§09) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax:612035
7th December, 1992.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to lodge the enclosed cheque for
Stg.£21.00 to credit of Hamilton Ross Account No.02/01 354/81 .
Yours sincerely,
JDT/AJW
Appendix XVI (i)
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
Dublin 2.
Facsimile: ($09) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065 /
Fax: 612035
4th January, 1993

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection an
Irish Pounds cheque for IR£20,000 payable to B.E.L.
Secretarial Services and debit the cost to Hamilton Ross
Account No.02/01 354/81 .
Yours sincerely,
P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
Please reply to:
Dublin 2. Facsimile: (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
18th February, 1993.
Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Pounds cheque for IRE50.00 payable to Kentford Securities Limited
and debit the Sterling cost to Hamilton Ross Account No.02/01 354/81 .
Yours sincerely,
JDT/AJW
P
Please reply to- '°' B ° X 887
'Grand Ca
y m a n - Cay™*11 Islands. British West Indies
Dublin 2. Facsimile: (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
15th March, 1 993.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Pounds cheque for IR£10,000.00 payable to Bank of Ireland and
debit the Sterling cost to Hamilton Ross Account No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
IrOJUL^l

0'-. ..
J D T / A J H
hSCli.
Appendix XVI (j)
CENTRAL BRINK BANC C6ANNAIS
OF IRELAND NA H €IR€ANN
PO Box No 559 Telephone 353-1-434 4000 / 671 6666
Dame St. Dublin 2 Telex 31041. Fax 353-1-671 6561
Our Ref. Your Ref.
11 April 2002
His Honour Judge Sean O' Leary, Ms Noreen Mackey B.L.

Mr Paul Rowan F.C.A., Mr Michael Cush S.C.
Office of the Inspectors appointed to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited
3 r d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co.Dublin
Dear Inspectors
Re: Hamilton Ross Company Ltd
I refer to your letter of 5 April 2002 addressed to the Governor. I confirm that
Hamilton Ross Company Limited never applied to the Central Bank for or never
held a licence to carry out banking business in this State.
Yours sincerely
Liam O' Reilly

Assistant Director General
Appendix XVII
(a) Summary of Exchange Controls furnished by Central Bank of Ireland

Appendix XVII (a)
EXCHANGE CONTROLS
Historical Legislative Administrative
1939 Emergency Powers
1954 Exchange Control Act 1954 Exchange Control Act 1954 Minister for Finance
- Four year continuation IC and CC
1957 Treaty of Rome
(Article 108)
1960 EC First Directive
1961 Adjusted Terms of
Article VIII of IMF for
current payments
1965 Central Bank
Administration
1971 Ireland join EEC
1972 Scheduled Territories 1972 Unit Trust Act
Excluding Cayman
Islands as Sterling area
is redefined
1974 Introduction of 1974 Introduction of
Notices, direct Notices
investment vis-£-vis
Ireland and EEC
members freed
1975 Current Payments
1977 Some personal capital
movements i.e. gilt's,
emigration, personal
capital flows
1978 Scheduled Territories
Redefined as State only
1979 UK abolish all
exchange controls
1984 Administration
changes
1986 Review of Exchange
Controls
1987 IFSC created 1987 Phased process of
relaxations
1988 Migrating Companies 1988 EC Directive gives 1988 Ex 19-Personal
from UK - brass plates Ireland four years Investors Administration
1990 Administration changes
- Notice Booklet
1991 Easing of Controls
1991 FX accounts - State
1992 Easing of controls
1992 Abolition of Controls End 1992 Exchange Controls
abolished
ANNEX 31
< '
i\
Significant Dates in the Period of Exchange Controls
Exchange Control Acts 1954 (and four-yearly renewal Acts). The Act itself
was veiy restrictive, prohibiting virtually any transaction outside the State
t
"except" with the permission of the Minister (for Finance). The "Scheduled
Territories were defined in Part I, paragraph 3 of the Act as:
(a) the State;

(b) Northern Ireland, Great Britain, the Channel Islands and the Isle of
Man and,
(c) such other territories as may be prescribed.
1965
The Exchange Control Acts provided for delegation by the Minister of his
powers under the Act. On May 3rd, responsibility for administration of most
aspects of the controls was transferred to the Central Bank.
1972
The sterling area (introduced in the U.K. under the Emergency Powers Act of
1939) was effectively dismantled. The 'Scheduled Territories, were reduced
to the State, Northern Ireland, Great Britain, Channel Islands and the Isle of
Man. All other countries, including the Cayman Islands were classified as the
'Overseas Sterling Area* and became subject to Exchange Controls.
1978
Central Bank Notice issued to Authorised Dealers, Approved Agents,
Authorised Travel Agents, Post Office, Building Societies, Registrars and
other interested persons that on 18th December the Minister for^Finance made
regulations under the Exchange Control Acts, 1954 to 1978, thaf'redefmed the
scheduled territories to the State only.
Irish residents holdings accounts with banks or other financial institutions in

the United Kingdom were required to close such accounts within three months
of the date of the Notice. Irish resident holdings of all foreign currency
securities (include U.K. securities) could be sold only to non-fesidents. If sold
the proceeds had to be reinvested or offered for sale to an Authorised Dealer
within two months.
1979
Central Bank Notice issued to Authorised Dealers, Approved Agents,
Authorised Travel Agents, Post Offices, Building Societies, Registrars and
other interested persons of changes to the regulations. On 22 January the
Central Bank confirmed the practical effects of earlier Notice of 18 December
1978.
Press release by Central Bank on 24 October notifying all interested parties

that U.K. authorities had removed all existing Exchange Control restrictions.
1987 to 1992
The Minister for Finance issued a Press Release in November 1987 of the
phased relaxation of the controls. The Central Bank began the phased
relaxation of Exchange Controls until the legislation expired on 31 December
1992. The last restriction to be removed was the operation by Irish residents
of foreign currency or Irish pound accounts abroad.
ANNEX 10
GENERAL INFORMATION OF PROCEDURES FOR EXPORT

OF FUNDS FROM THE STATE
Permissible if in keeping with the following provisions;

(a) 1954 - 23 June 1972 free export of funds to countries within the
Scheduled Territories;
(b) 23 June 1972 - 15 December 1978 free export of funds to countries
within the Scheduled Territories, a^ redefined;
(c) 1954 - 1992 for trade activity within the terms of Exchange Control
Notice, EX4 (as amended in respect of limits);
(d) 1954 - 1992 for portfolio investment within the terms of Exchange
Control Notice, EX6 (as amended in respect of limits).
(e) 1954 - 1992 for outward direct investment within the terms of
Exchange Control Notice, EX14;
(f) 1954 - 1992 for travel purposes within the terms of Exchange Control
Notice, EX9 (as amended in respect of limits);
(g) 1954 - 1992 for emigration within the terms of Exchange Control
Notice, EX 10 (as amended in respect of limits);
(h) 1954 - 1992 for transactions in respect of Estates, Settlements and
Gifts within the terms of Exchange Control Notice EX8 (as amended
in respect of limits);
(i) 1954 - 1992 for insurance business conducted outside the state within
the terms of Exchange Control Notice, EX18.
Non permissible means of exporting funds would have included:

(j) by physically exporting cash beyond permitted limits. Customs and
Excise enforced these regulations;
SUMMARY OF EXCHANGE CONTROLS '
Exchange Control Acts 1954 (and four-yearly renewal Acts). The Act itself is very
restrictive, prohibiting virtually any transaction outside the State "except" with the
permission of the Minister (for Finance).
1965
The Exchange Control Acts provide for delegation by the Minister of his powers
under the Act. On May 3rd, responsibility for most aspects were transferred to the
Central Bank.
1972
The sterling area (introduced in the U.K. under the Emergency Powers Act of 1939)
was effectively dismantled. The 'Scheduled Territories' reduced to Channel Islands,
the Isle of Man, the Republic of Ireland and Gibraltar. All other countries, including
the Cayman Islands were classified as the 'Overseas Sterling Area' and subject to
Exchange Controls.
1978
Notice to Authorised Dealers, Approved Agents, Authorised Travel Agents, Post
Office, Building Societies, Registrar and other interested persons that on 18th
December the Minister for Finance made regulations under the Exchange Control
Acts, 1954 to 1978, that redefined the scheduled territories to the State only.
Irish residents holding accounts with banks or otherfinancial institutions in the United
Kingdom required to close such accounts within three months of the date of the
notice. Irish residents holdings of all foreign currency securities (include. U.K.
securities) could be sold only to non-residents. If sold, proceeds had to be reinvested
or offered for sale to an Authorised Dealer within two months.
1979
Notice to Authorised Dealers etc. On 22 January confirming the practical effects of
earlier notice of 18 December 1978.
Press release by Central Bank on 24 October notifying all interested parties that U.K.
authorities had removed all existing Exchange Control restrictions.
1988 to 1992
Central Bank began phased abolition of Exchange Controls which concluded on 31
December 1992. The last restriction to be removed was the operation by Irish
residents of foreign currency or Irish pound accounts abroad.
HTSTORY OF THE SCHEDULED TERRITORIES
Exchange Control Acts 1954 (+ 4 yearly renewal Acts)
( M a y 3, most aspects of the Exchange Control Act, delegated by the

Minister for Finance to the Central Bank of Ireland.
ftffZ. J*" 16 23, the "Scheduled Territories" reduced to Channel Islands, Isle of
Man, Gibraltar and Republic of Ireland.
rn5>3 ("Confidential Circular)
Issued by Central Bank to all Authorised Dealers.
Section 9: Foreign Currency Accounts
Irish residents who hold accounts in the currency of countries in the
External Account Area (incl. Cayman Islands) obliged to close all such
accounts and required under Section 3(a) of Ex. Con. Acts, to offer
balances for sale to an Authorised Dealer unless otherwise permitted by
Central Bank.
Section 17; Trusts and Settlements

Residents require permission to set up, or add to, a trust or make a
settlement in favour of countries in the External Account Area.
~J(j 12 January, "Scheduled Territories" reduced to the State only. Foreign

currency accounts must be closed within 2 months. Foreign quoted
securities could be retained. If sold, proceed to be repatriated immediately
or re-invested in similar securities within 3 months.
Transactions to be effected with Approved Agents.
) ) )
EXCHANGE CONTROLS
Year Historical Legislative Administrative
1939 Emergency Powers
1954 Exchange Control Act Exchange Control Act Minister for Finance administration via '
- four Year continuation Individual Circular (IC) and Confidential Circular (CC)
1957 Treaty of Rome (Article 108)
1960 EC First Directive
1961 Adjusted Terms of Article VIII of IMF

for current payments
1965 Central Bank Administration of most powers
1971 Ireland joins EEC
1972 Scheduled Territories, excluding Unit Trust Act

Cayman Islands as Sterling area, is redefined
1974 Introduction of Exchange Control Notices Introduction of Exchange Control Notices by

direct investment vis-a-vis Ireland and EEC Central Bank of Ireland
members freed
1975 Current payments, I.e. trades liberalised
1977 Some personal capital movements

I.e. gilts, emigration, personal capital flows
1978 Scheduled Territories redefined as State only
1979 UK abolish all exchange controls
1984 Administration changes in exchange controls rules
1986 Review of Exchange Controls by CB-lreland
1987 IFSC created Phased process of relaxations announced
1988 Migrating Companies from UK - brass plates EC Directive gives Ireland four years EX 19 - Purchase of Foreign Securities
companies used for tax purposes Individual Private Investors Allowance -1988
1990 Administration changes - Notice Booklet issued
1991 Easing of Exchange Controls

FX accounts permitted in the State
1992 Easing of Exchange Controls
31-12-92 Act expires. Financial Transfers Act introduced Exchange Controls abolished
for emergency powers

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RECORD NUMBER: 1 9 9 9 /163 C O S

THE HIGH COURT

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

APPENDICES XVI & XVII

© Government of Ireland 2002

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr James McCarthy dated 22 February 2000.

b) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 19 April 1977 - JD Traynor to Pat

c) Letter of 31 December 1986 - GMCT to JD Traynor.

d) Letter of 31 December 1986 - JA Furze to JD Traynor.

e) Letter of 13 February 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Ascot Holdings

f) Letter of 10 January 1990 - JD Traynor to Vincent Ferguson.

g) Letter of 28 May 1990 - JD Traynor to James McCarthy.

ON TUESDAY, 22ND FEBRUARY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. JAMES MCCARTHY

Represented by: MR. SIMON MCALEESE

MATHESON ORMSBY PRENTICE

MR. J. MCCARTHY MS. MACKEY

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

2 22ND FEBRUARY 2 000

4 MR. McALEESE: I suppose I should

5 introduce myself first.

6 My name is Simon McAleese, I am Mr. McCarthy's

7 solicitor, with Matheson Ormsby Prentice.

8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you. We will start

9 our interview then,

10 Mr. McCarthy. My name is Declan Costello and on my

11 right is Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan.

12 We, as you know, are the Inspectors that have been

13 appointed by the High Court. This is not a court

14 nor is it a tribunal, it is an investigation and an

15 interview in the course of our investigation. If

16 you want to take legal advice from Mc. McAleese on

17 any question that we ask, please tell me and we will

18 stop, we will pause, and if Mr. McAleese wants to

19 give you any advice in the course of our

20 questioning, we will pause and he can give the

21 advice. We will now ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins,

22 to administer the oath to you.

4 MR. MCCARTHY: I have a little statement

5 here which refers to my

6 memorandum. It is a matter of adjusting a few

8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.

9 MR. MCCARTHY: It is paragraph 15 on page

10 5. It just says, "The

11 second Medford loan was given around about the same

12 time as the first loan." Therefore, the words

13 "February 1986" in the first line of paragraph 15 of

14 my statement should read "March 1984".

15 MS. MACKEY: 1984?

16 MR. MCCARTHY: Yes. Otherwise, my

17 statement is true and

18 correct, to the best of my recollection. Then just

19 a further statement that my solicitors have received

20 a letter from Ansbacher (Cayman) refusing to provide

21 documentation relevant to my past loans.

22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, very well.