Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 11

Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos
THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990
AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)
REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS

APPOINTED TO ENQUIRE INTO THE
AFFAIRS OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN)
LIMITED
Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002
VOLUME [ 1 1 ] : APPENDIX X V ( 1 1 2 ) TO X V ( 1 2 6 )
ISBN 0-7557-1355-9
© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (112) Mrs Sonia Rogers
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Mrs Sonia Rogers.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mrs Sonia Rogers dated 15 January 2002
including a letter of 4 April 2002 - Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh to the
Inspectors.
b) Letter of 21 December 2001 - Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh to the

Inspectors.
c) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Padraig Collery dated 11 January

2000.
d) Transcript of evidence of cross-examination of Padraig Collery on behalf

of Mrs Sonia Rogers dated 8 March 2002.
Appendix XV (112) (1) (a)
SUBMISSIONS AND PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF
MRS. SONIA ROGERS
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 15TH JANUARY 2002
I hereby certify the
following to be a true and
accurate transcript of my
shorthand notes in the
above named interview.
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MS. N. MACKEY BL
MR. P. ROWAN
Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MRS. ROGERS
Represented by: MR. RICHARD LAW NESBITT SC
Instructed by: MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA
KENNEDY McGONAGLE BALLAGH
SOLICITORS
2 0 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD
DUBLIN 4
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MRS. S. ROGERS MR. NESBITT 22 -

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 15TH JANUARY 2001:
6 MS. MACKEY: Good morning, Mrs. Rogers
7 and Gentlemen. We have
8 met before.
9 MRS. ROGERS: Yes.
10 MS. MACKEY: So, I do not think
11 I need to introduce
12 myself but you have not met my colleague
13 Mr. Rowan. He was not here on the last
14 occasion.
15
16 There are now four Inspectors as opposed to three
17 the last time you were here. The other two, Judge
18 Sean O'Leary and Mr. Michael Cush, are not here
19 today. So, just the two of us will be listening
20 to your submissions but the others will have an
21 opportunity to read them when they are in transcript
22 and we will all consider them.
23
24 You are all very welcome and I understand that
25 today Mr. Nesbitt wants to make some submissions
26 on your behalf and that then you yourself want
27 to adduce new evidence. I think that is the
28 situation, am I right?
29 MR. NESBITT: Yes, yes. What we
4
1 propose, with your
2 permission, is that I will make one or two points
3 on the current state of affairs in relation to
4 your preliminary conclusions, indicate in broad
5 terms what we believe we have to say that may
6 or may not have an impact on those that we
7 believe is something that would be helpful to
8 you to know, and then with your permission I will
9 bring Mrs. Rogers through the evidence she has in
10 that regard, and obviously any questions you have
11 then will be asked and that would be what I would
12 propose today.
13 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
14 MR. NESBITT: There are a series of
15 side issues which I will
16 highlight as I go through. They are just really
17 things to note at this point in time.
18
19 I do not know if you have available to you at
20 this time the preliminary conclusions that you
21 have drawn in respect of Mrs. Rogers. If you
22 do not have I will just go through them slowly.
23 MS. MACKEY: We have, yes.
24 MR. NESBITT: You very kindly set out
25 in numbered paragraphs
26 what I think is best described as the sort of
27 factual matrix from which your preliminary
28 conclusion was drawn and there is two numbered
29 paragraphs in your preliminary conclusion.
5
1 The first is uncontroversial and then the second
2 contains a number of matters. What I propose doing
3 is going thought it and saying the bits with which
4 we have no difficulty and then come to the bit that
5 we believe there may be some additional information
6 that might help you one way or the other.
7 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
8 MR. NESBITT: The first point you
9 make is that Mrs. Rogers
10 told you earlier that after her husband's death the
11 late Mr. Desmond Traynor told her that her husband
12 had established an offshore trust for her benefit
13 and that of the children. We do not take any issue
14 with that as it was said.
15
16 Two is:
17
18 "At a later stage, Mrs. Rogers learned

that the trust was in the Cayman
19 Islands..."
20
21 And again we do not take issue with that. That is
22 what she said.
23
24 And then you say:
25
26 "Mr. Traynor told her that the trust

'dealt in bloodstock' through a
27 company called Ascot Holdings."
28
29 Yes, indeed that was said.
6
1
2 Then it goes on:
4 "Mrs. Rogers subsequently conducted

all lodgements to and withdrawals
5 from the trust funds through
Mr. Traynor and Mr. Padraig Collery."
6
8 Now, we believe we have information that throws a
9 new light on that and I will explain what we think
10 the evidence doses establish.
11
12 Secondly, that:
13
14 "Mr. Collery has told the Inspectors

that the trust funds were held after
15 Captain Rogers's death in an account
coded A/A3 in the name of Hamilton
16 Ross."
17
18 Now, we have not seen Mr. Collery's evidence.
19 I note it is not actually listed in the supporting
20 evidence to deal with the conclusion and we read
21 what is said there but we cannot know that to be
22 correct or not correct and I am not in a position
23 to say anything materially about that at the moment
24 but it is a concern of mine that we have not seen
25 that evidence and I will say no more at the moment.
26
27
28 It continues:
29
7
1 "The Inspectors are satisfied that
Mrs. Rogers's dealings with the
2 trust following her husband's death
meant that she was from that time
3 on the beneficial owner of funds
in Ansbacher."
4
6 And again personally I have a slight difficulty
7 with understanding the exact context and gravelment
8 of that statement of fact and other than saying I
9 am not certain exactly what is looked to to sustain
10 that I believe that probably the sustaining element
11 of that is that earlier you had formed the view that
12 she conducted all lodgements and made withdrawals to
13 the trust and I can understand that if that is what
14 it says.
15
16 So, what we hope to do today is to put before you
17 some additional evidence that in fact indicates
18 that Mrs. Rogers did not in fact conduct lodgements
19 or withdrawals from the trust fund, and that is the
20 trust established by her late husband, and in doing
21 that I will just outline now where we hope to go
22 with the evidence.
23 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
24 MR. NESBITT: If you look back
25 through the transcript
26 it is clear on the evidence of Mrs. Rogers from
27 information she learned from others, largely
28 Mr. Traynor, that shortly before her husband's
29 death, you will recall that he was dying of
8
1 cancer so he had forewarning he was going to die,
2 he established a trust. He died in 1984 and that
3 trust is what you describe as the trust in the
4 Cayman Islands. He did other things though as
5 well and again the evidence in her first transcript
6 deals with that. He left a Will that established a
7 trust under the Will. That is a different trust.
8 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
9 MR. NESBITT: And also there was
10 property held in trust
11 that was later sold and that was for the benefit
12 of identified persons.
13 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
14 MR. NESBITT: This was sold and money
15 was distributed.
16 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
17 MR. NESBITT: So, there were trust
18 arrangements there that
19 were none of the trusts we are talking about.
20 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
21 MR. NESBITT: And the evidence we want
22 to lead today touches
23 upon two central areas; one, is we have obtained
24 a sworn declaration from Mr. Barry Benjamin who
25 was concerned with the operation of the trust that
26 has been said to be based in the Cayman Islands, and
27 secondly, given what Mrs. Rogers learned there she
28 then had to work out where certain other money had
29 gone and she will be giving you evidence of that.
9
1
2 You will be hearing evidence from her that she is
3 a person who had money in her own right before she
4 was married at all. Her maiden made was Pilkington.
5 She married Captain Rogers. He died in 1984 and
6 she then ran her own business affairs.
8 After his death she had invested in two investment
9 bonds, assurance policies, call it what you will,
10 that returned to her at the end of 1988, the
11 beginning of 1987 and 1988, approximately £151,000
12 which she gave to Mr. Traynor to manage to her
13 advantage anticipating that when she needed money
14 she could call upon him and she would get the money
15 back.
16
17 She will tell you that she had always believed that
18 that money was probably put into the trust that had
19 been set up by her husband. It is now clear that
20 that did not happen if you believe the sworn
21 declaration of Mr. Benjamin and in my opinion with
22 respect it is evidence that is available to you
23 that probably forces that conclusion upon you.
24
25 In the circumstances a document she produced on
26 the last occasion which you appended to your draft
27 conclusions which is a handwritten list of payments.
28 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
29 MR. NESBITT: It is Exhibit 3.
10
1 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
2 MR. NESBITT: It is Exhibit 2, sorry,
3 and it is misdescribed.
4 There is a typical error. It is described as the
5 list of drawings produced by Day Mason. It should
6 be Kay Mason.
7 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
8 MR. NESBITT: K-a-y.
9 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
10 MR. NESBITT: That may have been
11 corrected on a later date.
12 This list we say now, and if you receive the
13 evidence and view it in a favourable light we say
14 that, this is a list of payments that were received
15 back from Mr. Traynor and the only source of that
16 money was the money that she had given in 1988 to
17 Mr. Traynor; the returns of the £151,000 from the
18 two investment bonds.
19
20 The next document I would like to hand to you is
21 a copy of the sworn declaration from Mr. Benjamin.
22 MS. MACKEY: I think we have copies
23 of that that Mr. O'Shea
24 sent to us.
25 MR. O'SHEA: No, it wasn't actually
26 sworn at the time.
27 MR. NESBITT: This is the
28 actual...(INTERJECTION).
29 MS. MACKEY: It was not sworn.
11
1 MR. 0'SHEA: Yes (Same Handed).
2 MS. MACKEY: I see, yes. Thank you.
3 MR. ROWAN: Thank you.
4 MR. NESBITT: Now, again to short
5 circuit things perhaps
6 I could put in context what he is talking about
7 without bringing you through the entire of the
8 former transcript.
9 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
10 MR. NESBITT: Mr. Benjamin is a man,
11 I think, who became
12 known to my client during the McCracken Tribunal
13 when these issues first started arising and he
14 describes himself as the President of Western
15 International Trust Company, which I am sure
16 is probably known to you. He makes a point
17 that they were licensed to carry on the business
18 of company management and the provision of
19 trustee and related services. He indicates:
20
21 "All the issued shares in Ascot

Ventures Limited ("Ascot"), a
22 Cayman Islands company, were
registered in the name
23 of Western."
24
25 And you will recall from the earlier transcript
26 that the business of the trust, which is said
27 to be in the Cayman Islands, was managed by Ascot
28 Holdings later changed to Ascot Ventures but what
29 we then learn is that Mr. Furze, John Furze, the
12
1 original trustee, was holding shares in Ascot as
2 a discretionary trustee of funds provided by the
3 late Captain Rogers, which one would expect.
5 It is then said:
7 "In accordance with the policies of

Western, Ascot was dissolved in 2000
8 and the assets were transferred to
a newly incorporated Cayman company
9 called Rainy Day Ltd. ("Rainy Day").
All the issued shares in Rainy Day
10 are held by Western as trustee."
11
12 So, it seems, if that is accepted as an honest
13 analysis of how the property held by the trust
14 that was set up by Captain Rogers, that you start
15 off with the Ascot company as holding them. You
16 see control in Western who is a trust management
17 company. You see the dissolution of Ascot and a
18 new company Rainy Day. It does not seem to make
19 much difference; instead of Ascot it is now Rainy
20 Day.
21
22 However, it is what happens thereafter that is
23 important in this particular declaration. What
24 Mr. Benjamin says is to the best of his information,
25 knowledge and belief - and following a search of
26 the records in his possession:
27
28 "No additional capital has been

contributed to the said trust since
29 its inception save those funds
contributed by Capt. Rogers
13
1 immediately after the creation
of the trust."
2
4 Secondly, that:
6 "The Declaration of Trust establishing

the said trust and letter of wishes
7 cannot, after a thorough search, be
found and are presumed to have been
8 lost.
9 Mr. John A. Furze M.B.E. was the

original trustee of the said trust
10 and that trusteeship passed to
Western on his death.
11
The said trust has funds on deposit
12 through Rainy Day."
13
14 And then:
15
16 "No appointments or loans have

been made from the said trust to
17 any member of Capt. Rogers' family,
nor to any other person or entity."
18
19
20 Now, you will recall that on the last occasion
21 a document establishing that in the numbered
22 account that had been referred to there was
23 some £2m. Now, my client is prepared to accept
24 that that is the money that standing to the credit
25 of the trust that was established by her husband
26 but if you believe Mr. Benjamin's account as it
27 appears here, that nothing was taken out, there
28 were no appointments, that means that when my
29 client gave evidence on the last occasion that
14
1 she got money back from Mr. Traynor that she
2 believed came out of that trust, that is wrong.
4 There has to be an explanation for where
5 the money came from and the explanation is as
6 I have indicated, subject to her giving evidence
7 about that, that she had given to Mr. Traynor
8 the proceeds of these investment bonds in 1988
9 of some £150,000 and received the money back
10 in drips and drabs and some money would still
11 be owning.
12
13 We are concerned that if that be an appropriate
14 factual statement to put in the context of the
15 preliminary conclusions that a number of issues
16 flow from that in respect of the preliminary
17 conclusions.
18
19 The first would be that it is now a mistake to
20 say that she conducted all lodgements and made
21 withdrawals from the trust funds because that
22 simply did not happen. The trust fund had money
23 put in and nothing has happened since. So, there
24 was a trust established and it has remained there
25 and there is money in the trust and there are people
26 who are beneficiaries. So, we would be concerned
27 to have that corrected.
28
29 I cannot comment on what Mr. Collery says without
15
1 seeing the evidence he gave but it seems to me
2 unlikely, assuming that evidence is there, that
3 there would be any major dispute that the money
4 umber in account coded A/A3 is the current money
5 that is in the trust established by the late
6 Captain Rogers but I would like to see Mr. Collery's
7 evidence in that regard before committing to that.
9 Then, finally, I am not sure how you would best
10 position what the position is in relation to
11 that trust but if the trust was established
12 and there has been no appointments and there
13 has been no management necessary save through
14 the trustees I think it seems inappropriate to
15 say that Mrs. Rogers is appropriately described
16 as the beneficial owner of the funds. What she
17 is is one of a number of beneficiaries of the
18 trust and there has been no appointment and that
19 is really as good as it gets.
20
21 I suppose the most principle upshot of all of
22 this is that -- well, no, I need not go into
23 that issue. So, that is what we would like to
24 tell you about. It may seem small but I think
25 it is important to get it right. Your report is
26 going to be prima facia evidence of the facts it
27 contains and prima facia evidence of your opinions
28 and given we have got the Benjamin statement and
29 we have the additional evidence from Mrs. Rogers on,
16
1 you know, where the money could have come from if
2 it did not come out of the trust.
3 MS. MACKEY: I wonder if I could just
4 interrupt you to ask you
5 one question, Mr. Nesbitt?
6 MR. NESBITT: Yes.
7 MS. MACKEY: Do I understand that
8 you are accepting for
9 the moment that A/A3 represents the trust?
10 MR. NESBITT: Well, I do not know
11 because I have not
12 seen Mr. Collery's evidence. When you go
13 through -- all we are told is:
14
15 "Mr. Collery has told the Inspectors

that the trust funds were held after
16 Captain Rogers's death in an account
coded A/A3 in the name of Hamilton
17 Ross."
18
19 I have seen none of that evidence.
20 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
21 MR. NESBITT: My client believes,
22 as you see in her past
23 transcript, that there is a sum of money which
24 she has been told was held in a trust.
25 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
26 MR. NESBITT: She believes it is the
27 £2m that is referred to.
28 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
29 MR. NESBITT: However, other than her
17
1 belief she has no firm
2 evidence.
3 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
4 MR. NESBITT: The best she has got by
5 way of firm evidence is
6 what you say Mr. Collery said.
7 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
8 MR. NESBITT: And I just have not
9 seen that so I do
10 not know.
11 MS. MACKEY: Yes
12 MR. NESBITT: So, I am possibly saying
13 'yes' and 'no'. I do not
14 wish it to be said that I have made that concession.
15 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
16 MR. NESBITT: However, I am not in a
17 position to adduce other
18 evidence about the A/A3 designation but I would
19 like to see what Mr. Collery said.
20 MS. MACKEY: Certainly. The reason
21 I ask is that as you
22 will see if you look at Exhibit 5 there
23 (indicating).
24 MR. NESBITT: Yes.
25 MS. MACKEY: Certainly money came
26 out of that account.
28 MS. MACKEY: In 1993.
29 MR. NESBITT: Well, you see — well,
18
1 I find it difficult.
2 I think there is a £10,000. Are those the two
3 debits you are talking about?
4 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
5 MR. NESBITT: Indeed.
6 MS. MACKEY: And indeed money went in.
7 MR. NESBITT: Yes, and money came in
8 and in fact if you turn
9 back the page, to the previous page, you have got
10 £360,000 going in in 1993.
11 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
12 MR. NESBITT: You have got £790,000
13 odd going in twice
14 in 1993.
15 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
16 MR. NESBITT: You have got a little
17 bit coming out. You
18 have got an accrual of interest. The only thing
19 I would say about that is that if a trust fund
20 was established and it was under active management
21 money could come in and money come out. So, that
22 does not tell you anything about my client. It
23 just says, as is indicated, there was a trust.
24 There was people managing it. Mr. Benjamin is
25 in a position to talk about that.
26
27 However, it tells you no more than somebody was
28 dealing in the trust fund assets and my client
29 knows nothing of those and this (indicating),
19
1 as I have said, is nothing that tells you she
2 knows anything of those. So, I just find that
3 unremarkable. It is a trust fund established
4 where people deal in the trust.
6 I mean I do not want to guess but it had occurred
7 to me that if you see a credit of £700,000 odd
8 coming in that could well be the realisation of
9 some money that had been held on deposit somewhere
10 else, who knows. I do not know and I cannot put
11 the matter further than that.
12
13 However, the problem I have at the moment and that
14 I am seeking to deal with what was that my client
15 said things to suggest she believed that the money
16 she had received was from the trust and I think if
17 you go back over the transcript it is difficult to
18 always follow every thread of what people are
19 talking about. The concept of trust appears to
20 have been anything that Mr. Traynor had his hands
21 on.
22
23 If Mr. Benjamin is to be believed the trust
24 established by the late Captain Rogers was not
25 the source of the money that we see on foot of
26 Exhibit 2 and I am here to explain that to you,
27 one by Mr. Benjamin's declaration, and two by
28 the evidence that my client is about to give as
29 to somebody, Mr. Traynor, could have had money
20
1 that would have been paid to her and whatever
2 it means is whatever it means.
4 I think the one thing it does not mean is that the
5 trust, what I would call the Cayman trust for
6 shorthand, was a trust that she paid money into
7 or paid money out of or had any active involvement
8 in at all because here is what she got and it is
9 now explicable from another source and to suggest
10 it came out of Cayman trust means that you have
11 got to say that Mr. Benjamin's statement is entirely
12 untrue and I doubt that is something that is logical
13 or rational to say.
14
15 I do not know if the Tribunal has ever dealt
16 with Mr. Benjamin or had any other information
17 from him. I can only look at what we have got
18 in the preliminary conclusion but I do say that
19 I have not seen what Mr. Collery said and I would
20 be anxious to see that if something is going to
21 be drawn from it that went outside what I am
22 suggesting is the position at the moment.
23
24 So, subject to any questions you have on the
25 general presentation of the position we wish to
26 put before you I would propose asking Mrs. Rogers
27 now to give her evidence to deal with these things.
28 MS. MACKEY: Certainly. Thank you.
29 MR. NESBITT: I think Mrs. Rogers was
21
1 sworn on the last
2 occasion.
3 MS. MACKEY: Yes, yes.
4 MR. NESBITT: So, I am not sure if
5 you require to have
6 her sworn again.
7 MS. MACKEY: No, that is not necessary.
8 MR. NESBITT: Okay.
10 MRS. SONIA ROGERS, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN,
11 WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. NESBITT:
12
13
14 1 Q. MR. NESBITT: So, you are still under
15 oath Mrs. Rogers?
16 A. Yes.
17 2 Q. I want you to revisit a number of matters that you
18 gave evidence about the last time just to put in
19 context what I am going to ask you about. Your
20 husband was dying of leukaemia towards the end,
21 is that not right?
22 A. That is true, yes.
23 3 Q. And he knew he was going to die and he had been
24 arranging his affairs accordingly?
25 A. That is true.
26 4 Q. I think it was after his death that you
27 first learned that a trust had been established
28 somewhere to benefit you and the children, is
29 that not right?
22
1 A. Yes, it was about -- a few months after death.
2 5 Q. I think it was Desmond Traynor who was the source
3 of that piece of information?
4 A. That is true.
5 6 Q. I think in relation to that trust you learned
6 that the trust was going to be operating its
7 affairs through companies that bore the Ascot
8 name, that is right?
9 A. Yes, that is what he said to me.
10 7 Q. And you have given evidence about that?
11 A. Yes.
12 8 Q. In relation to Ascot I think Ascot actually
13 dealt with your stud business after your
14 husband's death?
15 A. That is true.
16 9 Q. Insofar as you were running a business concerning
17 horses after your husband's death what did Ascot
18 do? What sort of trade did Ascot do with you?
19 A. They traded in stallion shares.
20 10 Q. Very good?
21 A. Horses in training and...(INTERJECTION).
22 11 Q. So, Ascot as far as you were concerned owned
23 stallion shares in horses, is that right?
24 A. That is it.
25 12 Q. Now...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. We acted as agent for them.
27 13 Q. Agent for them?
28 A. Yes.
29 14 Q. Were there horses on any property that you were
23
1 controlling that were owned by Ascot?
2 A. Yes.
3 15 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. No, no, not on -- no, they weren't on -- there
5 were shares on the property.
6 16 Q. Okay?
7 A. But... (INTERJECTION) .
8 17 Q. Very good. So, they owned shares in stallions?
9 A. That is it.
10 18 Q. Those stallions were on your property?
11 A. That is it.
12 19 Q. And did you receive any return from Ascot for
13 looking after those?
14 A. Yes.
15 20 Q. The stallions in which the shares were?
16 A. Yes, but they were charged everything. They were
17 charged keep. They were charged insurance.
18 21 Q. Yes?
19 A. And it was that we just acted as agent for them
20 like any other.
21 22 Q. Very good. How did you get paid by them?
22 A. What do you mean 'how did I get paid by them'?
23 23 Q. Were you given stallion shares from Ascot?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. 0'SHEA: Nominations.
26 24 Q. MR. NESBITT: Nominations, sorry?
27 A. It is nominations, yes.
28 25 Q. And that is the ability to sell a nomination
29 from a stallion?
24
1 A. Yes.
2 26 Q. And make a return?
3 A. Yes.
4 27 Q. So, the business you ran was enjoying the cash
5 from these nominations?
6 A. Yes, but they were also charging everything else.
7 28 Q. Yes. So, you would set off what you earned against
8 the liabilities of Ascot?
9 A. Yes.
10 29 Q. And you made a profit after that?
11 A. Yes, very little actually.
12 30 Q. Very little?
13 A. Yes.
14 31 Q. I think you said on the last occasion that the
15 business that you did concerning Ascot shares
16 was a small portion of the overall business
17 you did?
18 A. Oh, yes, it was minimal.
19 32 Q. Very good. In relation to the business of trading
20 in stallion shares you took over your husband's
21 business in 1984?
22 A. Yes.
23 33 Q. And you then worked on with what you had thereafter,
24 is that not right?
25 A. Yes.
26 34 Q. And what happened in the market pi ace to stallion
27 shares? Did they remain good business?
28 A. No. Well, no, because we had a recession just
29 after he died and everything dropped.
25
1 35 Q. What did you do?
2 A. And I moved into mares, a completely different end
3 of it, and gradually got out of the stallions.
4 36 Q. And are you aware of what Ascot did with the
5 stallion shares it had?
6 A. Well, they -- I think they sold most of them or
7 they died or they -- it was the end of the them.
8 37 Q. Were you involved in paying over the proceeds of
9 sale of any of the shares that Ascot held? Did
10 you sell any of the shares for them?
11 A. You have already got the accounts. Yes, I think so.
12 The accounts ... (INTERJECTION) .
13 38 Q. Where would the money...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. The accounts are all there.
15 39 Q. Well, if you received money for the sale of Ascot
16 shares where would the money have been sent to?
17 A. They would have been sent back.
18 40 Q. To whom?
19 A. To Ascot.
20 41 Q. Yes. Via whom?
21 A. Via Mr. Traynor.
22 42 Q. Very good. I think a number of years after your
23 husband's death had you made any investments in
24 assurance policies or anything like that?
25 A. Yes, I had my own private stallion shares and
26 I had built up a book folio of my own. So, I
27 invested that in -- I wanted to diversify a bit.
28 43 Q. Yes?
29 A. So, I invested in various bonds and standard lifes
26
1 and various things like that.
2 44 Q. Did those bonds get paid back to you in due course?
3 A. Yes, when they matured. They were over so many
4 years. They were different.
5 45 Q. Very good. Did you ever have occasion to deal
6 with Mr. Desmond Traynor in relation to any of
7 the returns from those investment bonds?
8 A. Yes, because I had these two cheques which matured
9 from two of these.
10 46 Q. Yes?
11 A. I don't know whether they were standard lifes or
12 what they were and those were the two cheques that
13 I gave to Mr. Traynor.
14 47 Q. We will just take it slowly. Could you indicate
15 to the Inspectors what value you believe the two
16 cheques equated to?
17 A. Well, I think they came to £151,000 or approximately
18 that. One was one hundred and something and the
19 other was £48,000. I mean I am talking approximate.
20 48 Q. Do you remember roughly when you would have had
21 these cheques in your hand to do something with?
22 A. I think they were 1988 or something, were they?
23 About that.
24 49 Q. Yes?
25 A. I think one was the end of 1987 and one was
26 1988 but they were about then any way.
27 50 Q. Very good?
28 A. That sort of time.
29 51 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
1 A. I couldn't be exact.
2 52 Q. So, you had these cheques and what did you do
3 with them?
4 A. Well, I took them to Mr. Traynor because I actually
5 -- at that point I had a child with problems,
6 learning problems and so I had found a school
7 in America which I thought he could go to and
8 I gave them to Mr. Traynor. I had explained this
9 to Mr. Traynor when I saw him somewhere and he
10 said, "Well, why not give them to me and I will
11 invest them for you," and so I gave them to him.
12 53 Q. Okay. Now, if we could just briefly deal with
13 your child? I think you had a son who had not fared
14 well in the educational system, is that right?
15 A. Yes, that was for him. That is what I wanted.
16 54 Q. And he had been suffering from some form of
17 dyslexia?
18 A. Yes .
19 55 Q. Is that right?
20 A. That is true.
21 56 Q. And at that point in time, in 1988 thereafter,
22 I think he was still resistant about any need
23 to have further education?
24 A. Yes, he was being very difficult and he didn't
25 want to do it.
27 A. So, he did all sorts of other jobs and the money
28 stayed with Mr. Traynor.
29 58 Q. Very good. I think his educational problems
28
1 were dealt with in other ways?
2 A. Yes .
3 59 Q. You did not have to dip into your money to pay
4 for that, is that right?
5 A. Yes, because he inherited some money later on.
6 60 Q. Yes. I think some of the property that was being
7 held on trust to be sold was sold?
8 A. Yes .
9 61 Q. And he received a very substantial payout from that?
10 A. So, he could afford to pay for his own education at
11 that point.
12 62 Q. Yes. I think he received sums in excess of £lm,
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes .
15 63 Q. I think he is now in America, is that right?
16 A. He has been in America -- he works in America now
17 and he went to America and he actually was cured
18 and he got his BA, he got his MA, and he is now
19 working. So, it was a success story in the end.
20 64 Q. Alright. He had difficulty with his dyslexia.
21 He had remedial teaching and...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. Oh, yes, he was very very bad. They said he was
23 the worse case they had ever seen and he would
24 never pass an exam. So, it was a success story.
25 65 Q. Okay. Coming back to Mr. Traynor: You had given
26 money to Mr. Traynor and he was going to do what
27 with it for you?
28 A. He was going to invest it for me.
29 66 Q. Okay?
1 A. But it was eventually -- I presumed he was going
2 to pay the school fees until it all changed.
3 67 Q. When you were here on the last occasion you were
4 asked about getting money from the trust that your
5 husband established. Have you learned anything
6 since that would assist you in throwing any further
7 light on whether or not you received money from
8 the trust that your husband established?
9 A. Well, I thought when I was here before that this
10 money for - that I took back in tranches -- you
11 are talking about that, are you?
12 68 Q. Yes?
13 A. The number I got back from him.
14 69 Q. Yes?
15 A. I thought, when I was here before, it came out
16 of "the trust" for want of a better word.
17 70 Q. Now, I want to be very careful so we all talk
18 the same language. When you say "the trust"
19 with inverted commas?
20 A. Or I mean the Cayman...(INTERJECTION).
21 71 Q. You are talking about the one your husband
22 established shortly before his death?
23 A. I am talking about the Cayman trust or whatever you
24 -- I thought it came out of that and it wasn't until
25 -- I think Padraig Collery told us it came out of
26 that. I don't know. I think that is probably how
27 it originally -- I think my solicitor thought it
28 came out of that and he told me but any way I
29 thought it came out of that and then it wasn't
30
1 until I made contact with Barry Benjamin who I
2 was -- because I was trying to get a Trust Deed.
3 I mean I had nothing to prove there was a trust
4 and you had asked me for that. I had absolutely
5 nothing and I contacted him a few times and he
6 couldn't find anything and eventually I asked him
7 about this and he said in no way had I ever taken
8 any money out and that this money was kept
9 completely separately.
10 72 Q. Very good. Now, I just want to be certain we are
11 talking about the same thing?
12 A. Okay.
13 73 Q. On the last occasion you give evidence you handed
14 in a handwritten document, which you can see
15 (indicating)?
16 A. Yes.
17 74 Q. To identify it for the transcript it is Exhibit 2
18 to the preliminary conclusions of the Inspectors
19 as they currently stand. Was that (indicating)
20 the list of money that you received back after
21 making...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. Yes, that was the money that I -- later on when
23 I went to see Mr. Traynor I knew that my son
24 didn't need the money any more because he had got
25 his own inheritance as I have explained to you I
26 said to Mr. Traynor that I needed -- he said, "How
27 is everything," as he always said and I said, "Oh,
28 fine, but I am doing up a house that I have moved
29 into. I have just built some flats and I am
31
1 furnishing them. This is all with my own money
2 and I have not -- I am short of money for this
3 job," and he said, "Well, that is no problem.
4 You can have back some money out of -- you know,
5 I will give you some money," and I never asked
6 where it came from.
7 75 Q. I think Mr. Traynor died around 1994/1995. I do
8 not know if you remember that?
9 A. Yes .
10 76 Q. Did you deal with somebody else after that?
11 A. I dealt with Mr. Collery actually.
12 77 Q. Mr. Collery?
13 A. Yes, I mean I had these tranches at different times.
14 78 Q. Yes?
15 A. I can't remember what dates they were. What are the
16 dates of them?
17 79 Q. Do not worry about the dates at the moment?
18 A. Okay.
19 80 Q. Very good. Do you have any explanation as to
20 where Mr. Traynor, or later Mr. Collery, could
21 have got money to pay you back if Mr. Benjamin's
22 account of the trust fund having remained in
23 tact is correct?
24 A. I have no idea where it came from.
25 81 Q. Yes. Had you given him any other money besides
26 the two cheques that you have described?
27 A. No.
28 82 Q. And that is the extent to the best of your
29 records of what you got back from Mr. Traynor
32
1 or Mr. Collery?
2 A. Yes, I presume that's I think the whole lot.
3 83 Q. Very good. Have you received any of the money
4 or any money from the trust in the Cayman Islands
5 to the best of your understanding or belief?
6 A. No.
7 84 Q. Good. Okay.
9 END OF EXAMINATION OF MS. ROGERS BY MR. NESBITT
10
11
12 MR. NESBITT: That is the evidence that
13 I propose leading subject
14 to any questions you have of my client.
15 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much.
16 Well, I think what we
17 will do is we will take a short break. We would
18 invite you to have a cup of tea or coffee and
19 Mr. Rowan and I will come back to you in about
20 ten minutes.
21 MR. NESBITT: That is grand. Thank you.
23
24 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
25
26
27
28
29
33
1 THE EXAMINATION CONTINUED AS FOLLOWS AFTER SHORTEN
2 ADJOURNMENT:
5 MS. MACKEY: Very well. We have
6 furnished you with a
7 copy of Mr. Collery's evidence in relation to
8 Mrs. Rogers and have you had a chance to look
9 at that?
10 MR. NESBITT: We had the opportunity
11 of looking at it, yes.
12 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
13 MR. NESBITT: And I suppose all we
14 can say is this: It
15 appears to be a bit tentative at best.
16 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
17 MR. NESBITT: And now we have the
18 Barry Benjamin evidence.
19 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
20 MR. NESBITT: It must be wrong.
21 MS. MACKEY: That you say Mr. Collery's
22 evidence is possibly wrong
23 in the light of Mr. Barry Benjamin?
24 MR. NESBITT: It must be wrong.
25 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
26 MR. NESBITT: If Mr. Benjamin is
27 correct.
28 MS. MACKEY: I see. You have the
29 right, Mrs. Rogers,
34
1 to...(INTERJECTION).
2 MRS. ROGERS: I am sorry? Excuse me?
3 MS. MACKEY: You have the right
4 and indeed we would
5 be very happy for you to cross-examine Mr. Collery
6 on his evidence. That is a matter for you to take
7 into account with your legal advisors. You can
8 consider that matter. If you do wish to do that
9 we would like you to let us know as soon as
10 possible.
12 MS. MACKEY: Because Mr. Collery
13 will be making himself
14 available I think for cross-examination to a number
15 of people.
17 MS. MACKEY: And we would like to,
18 insofar as possible,
19 try and fit all of those in around the same time.
20 MR. NESBITT: Okay.
21 MS. MACKEY: Also because we are
22 near the end of
23 our...(INTERJECTION).
24 MR. NESBITT: Well, we will certainly --
25 I have read your list
26 of procedures.
27 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
28 MR. NESBITT: We will certainly
29 consider that.
35
1 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
2 MR. NESBITT: And what you respectfully
3 ask is: "Do we wish to do
4 that?"
5 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
6 MR. NESBITT: If we do there is the
7 opportunity if you move.
8 MS. MACKEY: Absolutely
9 MR. NESBITT: Very good.
10 MS. MACKEY: We would like if you
11 could inform us of
12 your decision about that within a week.
13 MR. NESBITT: Very good.
15 MR. NESBITT: Okay. Thank you very
16 much.
17 MRS. ROGERS: Thank you very much
18 indeed.
19 MR. 0'SHEA: Thank you.
20 MS. MACKEY: That is fine. Thank
21 you very much for
22 coming in. Thank you, Mrs. Rogers.
23 MRS. ROGERS: Thank you very
24 much indeed.
25
26 THE EXAMINATION THEN CONCLUDED.
27
28
29
36
T/jpwO/
KENNEDY MCGONAGLE BALLAGH
INCORPORATING BELL BRANIGAN O'DONNELL & O ' B R I E N
solicitors
20 N O R T H U M B E R L A N D R O A D D U B L I N 4
T E L 660 <)7W KAX 660 9434
E M A I L : info(« kmb.ie
www.kmb.ie
Office of the Inspectors appointed by Or3er75 Your ref: C/R03/NSPM

of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited Our ref: MO'S/DF
3rd Floor
Trident House «n a(Mt
B 9
Blackrock ™ Wl
Co Dublin
4 April 2002
Re: Mrs Sonia Rogers
Dear Inspectors,
We refer to the transcript of our client's evidence to you on 15 January 2002.
We would appreciate if you could note the following corrections and comments:-
1. Our client is represented by Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh, 20 Northumberland
Road, Dublin 4 not Michael O'Shea & Company, 291 Templeogue Road,
Dublin 6W.
2. There are a few minor errors in part of Mr. Nesbitt's statement that our client
believes should be corrected.
(a) On Page 10 he states that the two investments referred to had been
invested after her late husband's death. This is not correct, these
investments were made before her husband's death.
(b) On line 10 on the same Page, 1998 should be 1988 (as is evident from line
11).
(c) Also in the same paragraph it is not correct to say that she gave the funds
to Mr. Traynor to manage for her but rather the funds were given to Mr.
Traynor to provide for the education of her son, John.
(d) In the third paragraph on Page 10 it is not correct to say that she always
believed that the money was probably put into the trust. The reality is that
at the time she did not know.
(e) On Page 15, our client states that so far as she is aware there is nothing
outstanding contrary to Mr. Nesbitt's statement that some money would
still be owing (lines 10 and 11).
VUCIIAkl J. O'SIIKA RtXil'R P. BAM A(ill IKRINCI; B. DIXON KI-VIN C. HARRY (KJRIX)N JUIXit:
ASSISIAMS: FIONA IIINRY AGATHA B. TAYLOR
U INSCI.I Wis: I.AIiRINCI. I. HRANICiAN MAKIINA I,. O'dORMAN
COMMISSIONERS TOR OAIIIS / NOTARIES IH »UC
"*., •• Member of the Association of Independent European Lawyers.
-2-
3. Finally, some answers of our client on Page 24 are not wholly correct. The
correct answer to question 18 was that not all stallions were on our client's
property. In other words the company held shares in stallions, some of which
did not stand on our client's property. Again the answer to question 23 on the
same page could more fully be replied to as follows:-
"That the nominations were either used by Ascot or were sold for Ascot."
Airlie Stud received keep fees and was paid commission on sales of
bloodstock by Ascot. The sale of stallion nominations were not paid to Airlie
Stud but were credited to Ascot's account and this is touched upon at question
25.
While we appreciate that none of the above are particularly material our client is
nevertheless most anxious that the full and correct facts are available to you.
You might let us know when it will suit for our client to call to sign the transcript.
Yours sincerely,
Michael O'Shea
Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh
KENNEDY MCGONAGLE BALLAGH
INCOKPOKATINC BKLL BKA.MC;AN O ' D O N N K I . I . & O ' B R I K N
S () I. 1 C I T O It S
20 NORTIIUMHI-RLANI) ROAD DUBLIN 4

THL 660 'J7()9 I-AX 660 0434
EMAIL: in loft/,;kmb.ic
www.kmh.io
Office of the Inspectors appointed by OrHer7j Yourref: C/R03/NSPM
o£th§ High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited Ourref: MO'S/DF
3rd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin
21 December 2001
Re: Mrs Sonia Rogers
Dear Sirs
We refer to your letter dated 3 December regarding your preliminary conclusions

relating to Mrs Sonia Rogers.
We wish to state that your preliminary conclusions and certain statements relating to
Mrs Rogers' conduct are incorrect. In particular, Mrs Rogers was not a client of
Ansbacher Cayman Limited, had no relationship with Ansbacher Cayman Limited
and gave no instructions to Ansbacher Cayman Limited.
Your statement that Mrs Rogers conducted lodgments to and withdrawals from the
trust fund established by the late Captain Tim Rogers is incorrect - From information
recently confirmed to Mrs. Rogers she now knows that no lodgements/withdrawals
to/from the Trust were made.
Your statement that Mrs Rogers was the beneficial owner of the funds in Ansbacher is
incorrect. The funds are controlled by the Trustees and not by Mrs Rogers and we
believe that, when you consider our statements below, you will accept that this
statement is correct.
As a consequence of the above points, we believe your preliminary conclusions are

fundamentally flawed and consequently, the excerpts from your preliminary report
should be amended accordingly.
It is apparent to our client, following a consideration of the transcript of her evidence,

that Mr Justice Costello and herself were at cross purposes for a good deal of the
examination. We wish to make it clear that there was never an intention on Mrs
Rogers' part to mislead Mr Justice Costello and any contribution she made to the
confusion was entirely innocent.
Capiain Rogers Cayman Trust
As a result of our ongoing enquiries and our attempt to determine the nature of the
Captain Rogers Cayman Trust, we have received from Barry Benjamin a draft affidavit
in which he sets out the nature and facts relating to this Trust. He states inter alia that:
(i) No additional capital has been contributed to the Trust since its inception
save that contributed by Captain Rogers immediately after the creation of
the Trust;
(ii) No appointments have been made by the Trusteesfrom the Trust and no
member of the family of Captain Rogers have been in receipt of any loans
or advancesfrom the Trust.
Mrs Rogers' Airlie Stud had a normal commercial arrangement with a company
called Ascot Holdings Limited, which subsequently became Ascot Ventures Limited.
This business was conducted in the normal way as with any other client for whom she
was providing bloodstock services. Mrs Rogers was aware of the connection between
Ascot Holdings Limited, subsequently Ascot Ventures Limited, and the Trust
established by her late husband. Any payments or lodgments she made on behalf of
Ascot Holdings Limited, subsequently Ascot Ventures Limited, were made to that
company and not to the Trustees. It should be pointed out to avoid any confusion in
the transcript of her examination that the quantum of trade with Ascot was very small
compared to the quantum of trade of Airlie Stud.
Mrs Rogers Education Account
We wish to advise that Mrs Rogers gave the proceeds of two insurance policies to Mr
Des Traynor in 1988 the purpose of which was to fund the education of her son, John,
in the United States. John had special education needs and she wished him to attend a
special school in the United States and set aside the proceeds of two insurance
policies to fund this. As it happened, she could not persuade her son to attend the
school at the time, although he subsequently did when he was a good deal older.
The sum involved was £151,158, paid in two amounts, which Mr Traynor said he
would manage for her. Mrs Rogers had no knowledge of where Mr Traynor lodged
the funds. As the funds ultimately were not required for education purposes for her
son John, various amounts over the years were repaid to Mrs Rogers, some of which
were used on renovations in Grangewilliam. These amounts are the amounts set out
in Exhibit 2 to your preliminary conclusions and represent the full amount of the
payments made to Mrs. Rogers from this source. It is now clearfrom the declaration
of Mr. Benjamin that these payments to Mrs. Rogers were the repayment of the two
amounts given by her to Mr. Traynor and that they were never part of the Captain
Rogers Cayman Trust.
Mrs Rogers has provided all relevant information relating to these payments to the
Revenue Commissioners and all tax relating to the income accruing on the payments
have been returned, fully paid and discharged.
Exhibits
In relation to the other exhibits attached to your preliminary conclusions, we draw

your attention to the following:
Exhibit 3
We have no knowledge of this payment and indeed the copy with which we have been
furnished is illegible. Our client has no knowledge, memory or light to shed on this
cheque which incidentally is dated 8 April 1992 and not 1982 as stated in your list of
exhibits. Please furnish us with the original cheque or a clearly legible copy.
Exhibit 4
Mrs Rogers has no knowledge relating to the credit of £360,366.15 shown in this
document headed "Statement of Account".
Exhibit S
Mrs Rogers has no knowledge of the two credits of £798,683.40 shown in the
document headed "Statement of Account" at exhibit 5.
Exhibit 6
Mrs Rogers has no knowledge of the debits and credits shown in the document headed
"Hamilton Ross".
As is apparent from the above, the preliminary conclusions relating to Mrs Sonia Rogers
are incorrect in certain important and fundamental respects. In particular, Mrs Rogers is
not a client of Ansbacher, she did not conduct any lodgments or withdrawals to or from
the Cayman Trust established by her late husband, nor is she
the Beneficial owner of the funds in that trust. As the statements are adverse to our
client's interests, we call upon you to amend your report to delete all reference to the
above matters.
We further call upon you, in accordance with Appendix C attached to your letter dated
28 March 2000 setting out the procedures to be adopted by the Inspectors, that you
inform us in writing of your revised preliminaryfindings following consideration of the
above matters and that our client be afforded, by way of examination on oath, an
opportunity to address the Inspectors in accordance with Appendix D of the said
Appendix in relation to any of the matters referred to above. It is hoped that such a
further examination would be conducted in a much more courteous manner. The
examination before Mr. Justice Costello was conducted in a hostile and aggressive
manner and Mrs. Rogers was interrupted continuously, as the transcript will show. This
experience caused her considerable distress.
We await hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
Kennedy Mfcuonagle Ballagh

AFFIDAVIT
1. I am the President of Western International Trust Company Limited ("Western'"),

a Cayman Islands company licensed to carry on the business of com pan v
management and the provision of trustee and related services.
Z. All the issued shares to Ascot. Ventures Limited ("Ascot"), a Cayman Islands
company, wereregisteredin the name of Western.
3. '• ' $tr. John A. Furze M.B.E., the original trustee, was holding such shares in Ascot
as a discretionary trustee of funds.provided by the late Captain A.D.D. Rogers
(Tim Rogers),
4. In accordance with the policies of Western, Ascot was dissolved in 2000 and the
assets were transferred to a newly incorporated Cayman company called Rainy
Day Ltd. ("Rainy Day"). All the issued shares in Rainy Day arc held by Western
as trustee.
5. To the best of my Information, knowledge and belief - and following a search of the
records in my possession.
a) No additional capital has been contributed to the said trust since its
inception save those funds contributed by Capt. Rogers immediately after
the creation of the trust.
b) The Declaration of Trust establishing the said trust and letter of wishes
cannot, after a thorough search, be found and are presumed to have been
lost.
c) Mr. John A. Furze M.B.E. was the original trustee of the said trust and that
trusteeship passed to Western on his death.
d) The said trust has funds on deposit through Rainy Day.
. e) No appointments or loans have been madefrom the said trust to any

member of Capt. Rogers' family, riorto any other person or entity.
SWORN AND SUBSCRIBED TO )

By BARRY B. BENJAMIN
President of WESTERN INTERNATIONAL BARRY B. BENJAMIN
TRUST COMPANY LIMITED
this day of 200
in the pruscncc of:
)
Notary Public, Cayman Islands
My C'uninussion expires Junuiiry J 1.2002
Appendix XV (112) (l)(e)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OP PADRAIG COLLERY
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 11TH JANUARY 2000

nterview.
Stenographer
G W E N MALONE
— STENOGRAPHY SERVICES LTD.=
LAW LIBRARY, P.O. BOX 5939, 145-151 CHURCH STREET, DUBLIN 7.
TEL: (01) 8782000/8782033. FAX: (01) 8782058. MOBILE: 087 2491314. AFTER HOURS: 287 1380.
1
3
4
5 253 Q.
6
7 A.
8
9 Q Ascot Ventures, I believe there is a trust and the
10 person who has received a distribution out of that
11 trust is Ms. Sonia Rogers^
12
13
14
15 254 Q.
16
17 A.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26 255 C
27
28
29
1
3
4
5 es
6
7
8
10
11
12
13
14 26
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 made payments to Mrs. Kay
22 Mason, but I believe they were collected on behalf
23 of Mrs. Rogers, I think is the name, who in turn is
24 connected with Ascot Ventures. That is why that
25 name is there.
26 263 Q. Payments from A/A3, who was . .. (INTERJECTION) .
27 A. A/A3 is Ascot, or the funds that are held on behalf
28 of Ascot by a company called Ascot Ventures.
29 264 Q. To Mrs. Rogers?
1 A. I believe Ascot -- and, again, it is very sketchy
2 information, but I believe Ascot Ventures was a
3 bloodstock company which traded in the States and in
4 Australia and it had a direct relationship with
5 Ansbacher Cayman, and funds were transferred. It, I
6 believe, had stock with Airlie Stud and these were
7 payments for fees, etc, services rendered through
8
^ 265
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
19
20 266
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
Appendix XV (112) (1) (d)
CROSS EXAMINATION OF MR. PADRAIG COLLERY
ON BEHALF OF SONIA ROGERS
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 8TH MARCH 2 0 02
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MS. MACKEY BL
MR. ROWAN
MR. ROWAN
MR. M. CUSH SC
Interviewee: MR. COLLERY
Represented by: MR. JERRY SHEEHAN
SHEEHAN & CO.
SOLICITORS
On Behalf Of Sonia Rogers: RICHARD LAW NESBITT SC
Instructed by: MICHAEL 0'SHEA
SOLICITORS
INDEX
MR. P. COLLERY MR. NESBITT 6-15
MR. P. COLLERY MS. MACKEY 16 - 17
MR. P. COLLERY MR. SHEEHAN 18 - 18

1 THE INTERVIEW BEGAN AS FOLLOWS:
3 MS. MACKEY: Good morning, everybody
4 perhaps the best thing to
5 do would be if the legal advisors on each side would
6 introduce themselves for the record and Mr. Collery
7 is on Oath already so he will not have to take the
8 Oath again. Is that okay, Mr. Collery.
9 A. Yes.
10 1 Q. I do not know how you wish to proceed with this
11 whether anybody wants to make an opening statement,
12 Mr. Nesbitt?
13 MR. NESBITT: I will explain. I appear
14 for Sonia Rogers
15 instructed by Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh. The reason
16 we are here today is on the last occasion we were
17 dealing with the affairs of Mrs. Rogers. An issue
18 arose as to certain evidence that had been given by
19 Mr. Collery at an earlier stage. You provided us
20 with extracts from the transcript of evidence he
21 gave, I am not sure of the exact date, sorry, 11th
22 January, 2000 was the date of the evidence. You
23 provided us with an extract from a series of pages,
24 not complete, but some parts of what appeared on the
25 pages. You gave us lines 9, 10 and 11 on page 59.
26 You gave us lines 21 through to 29 on page 64 and
27 lines 1 through to 8 on page 65. We were pointed to
28 that evidence because it was suggested as being
29 evidence that contradicted, possibly, the contents
4
1 of an affidavit we produced from a Mr. Barry
2 Benjamin concerning whether or not monies that were
3 said to have been received by Mrs. Rogers came out
4 of a trust that was abroad. We asked if we could
5 ask Mr. Collery things about this to see if it might
6 cast any more light on what the position might have
7 been and, so, I am here to to that subject to any
8 views Mr. Collery's representative has or Mr.
9 Collery has.
10 MR. SHEEHAN: I am Jerry Sheehan of
11 Sheehan & Co, Solicitors.
12 I have been with you before. I represent
13 Mr. Collery and have always adopted the attitude of
14 giving whatever assistance we can, Inspectors, and
15 we are happy to be here today to assist in this
16 further enquiry. We have had little or no
17 forewarning of what the issues are so you will have
18 to bear with us if there is any delay in dealing
19 with the matters.
20 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much, Mr.
21 Collery for coming and,
22 perhaps, Mr. Nesbitt you would like to begin.
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. PADRAIG COLLERY WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY
2 MR. NEXBITT:
4 MR. NESBITT: Very good, the first thing
5 if I could ask for Mr.
6 Collery to be given a copy of the transcript I want
7 to ask him questions about it and that might make it
8 easier for him.
9 MS. MACKEY: The transcript of his own
10 evidence.
11 MR. NESBITT: His own evidence, yes.
12 MS. MACKEY: Which day.
13 MR. NESBITT: The 11th of January 2000,
14 page 64. Now, Mr.
15 Collery, just to set my questions in context to try
16 and help you, as you have heard already, I appear
17 for Sonia Rogers and an issue that has arisen
18 between Mrs. Rogers and the inspectors is whether or
19 not certain payments of money that it is said she
20 receives were paid out of a trust that had been
21 established by her husband or, possibly, came from
22 some other source. I will come back to that but, it
23 has been suggested that certain evidence you gave on
24 the 11th January, 2000 was material to the fact of
25 payments and the possible source of the money. I
26 just want to bring you through the little bits
27 I have to see if we can tease out this issue a
28 little bit further. You said on page 64, line 21
29 that you made payments to Mrs. Kay Mason and you
6
1 believe they were collected on behalf of Mrs.
2 Rogers. I think you also say," ... I think is the
3 name who is in turn connected with Ascot Ventures.
4 That is why the name is there." You say the
5 payments were from A/A3. I just wanted to ask you a
6 little bit about that. Could you explain to me, and
7 the Inspectors probably know, when you use the

f
8 phrase A/A3 f what are you intending to refer to?
9 A. I think we would have in front of us at that
10 juncture copies of what we commonly refer to as a
11 memorandum account. Will I go into the explanation
12 of that.
13 MS. MACKEY: Whatever way Mr. Nesbitt
14 wants you to proceed, Mr.
15 Collery.
16 MR. NESBITT: Yes, the memorandum
17 account.
18 A. A memorandum account was a split down or the
19 memorandum system was a method by which Hamilton
20 Ross, I think, as we were talking here who was a
21 company of John Furze's, a Cayman company had a
22 deposit with Guinness & Mahon and or Irish
23 Intercontinental Bank. It would not say one deposit
24 there of a sum of X. The memorandum system had the
25 break down of accounting for the totality of that
26 sum of X. When payment was made to an individual
27 then it would be indicated when Mr. Traynor was
28 alive as to where that payment should come from. I
29 merely carried on that on behalf of Mr. John Furze
7
1 when Mr. Traynor died. In the case of payments that
2 we were referring to here those are payments that
3 were made to Mrs. Mason and I believe were
4 ultimately to Mrs. Rogers came out of an account
5 entitled A/A3.
6 2 Q. Now, this memorandum account, that was something
7 maintained in this jurisdiction, is that right?
8 A. It was a memorandum of events over an account which
9 companies in Cayman would have had with Hamilton
10 Ross.
11 3 Q. In sort of simplistic terms it was a record you were
12 keeping in this jurisdiction of what was happening
13 on an account somewhere else, is that right?
14 A. It was a record of a sum of monies which was held
15 somewhere else.
16 4 Q. Very good, now, I want to talk about the sum of
17 monies that were held somewhere else because if you
18 see a record of an event taking place in the
19 memorandum account am I right in thinking that means
20 that if money was paid out it came out of the
21 account somewhere else, is that right?
22 A. What happened with the transactions were that these
23 statements of these accounts were transferred back
24 to Cayman and then John Furze would have, I presume,
25 would have posted those transactions in his books in
26 Cayman.
27 5 Q. Now, as I understand the arrangements that are under
28 investigation here you only appear for a short
29 period of history after Mr. Traynor dropped out of
8
1 the picture, is that right?
2 A. I would only have had direct relationships for a
3 short period, that is correct.
4 6 Q. What I wanted to find out about the account that
5 existed in Hamilton Ross or wherever that appears to
6 be in some way connected to the memorandum account.
7 Are you in a position to throw any light as to what
8 might be the source of funds for that account?
9 A. Ni, because it would have happened way beyond my
10 time.
11 7 Q. In those circumstances are you aware whether or not
12 it is possible there might be a number of sources of
13 funds that would be in the offshore account, if I
14 can give it that phrase?
15 A. No, because that detail was not available to me here
16 in Dublin.
17 8 Q. I want you to just look at something that we have
18 obtained. Do you know a Barry Benjamin?
19 A. Yes, he was Mr. Furze's partner in the trust company
20 which they set up in Cayman.
21 A. What I wanted to show you was a copy of an
22 Affidavit, this is the original sworn by Mr.
23 Benjamin. Perhaps you could just take your time and
24 read that. I think the Inspectors has been given a
25 copy of this, Exhibit (1)
26 MS. MACKEY: We have a copy, yes, thank
27 you.
28 (EXHIBIT NO. 1 HANDED TO WITNESS)
29 MR. NESBITT: You have had a chance to
9
1 read that. Now, just to
2 bring you through that just to let you understand
3 what I understand to be the information contained in
4 there. He says he is President of Western
5 International Trust Company which he calls "Western"
6 and that was, basically, a business to provide
7 management and trustee services. He indicates that
8 the issued shares in Ascot Ventures Limited, a
9 Cayman Island Company, were registered in the name
10 of Western. He makes the point that a Mr. Furze was
11 an original trustee holding the shares in Ascot as a
12 discretionary trustee of the funds for the late
13 Captain Rogers. He says in accordance with policies
14 of Western, Ascot was dissolved in 2000 and the
15 assets were transferred to a newly incorporated
16 Cayman company called, Rainy Day Limited and all the
17 issued shares in Rainy Day are held by Western as
18 trustee. Then he says to the best of his
19 information, knowledge and belief the following
20 matters having searched his records. He says: No
21 additional capital had been contributed to the trust
22 since its inception save for those funds contributed
23 by Captain Rogers immediately after the creation of
24 the trust. Secondly, that the declaration of trust
25 establishing the said trust and letter of wishes
26 cannot, after a thorough search, be found and are
27 presumed to have been lost. He says that Mr. Furze
28 was the original trustee of the said trust and that
29 trusteeship passed to Western on his death. That
10
1 the trust funds are on deposit through Rainy Day
2 and, finally, he makes the point that no appointment
3 or loans have been made from the trust money to any
4 member of Captain Rogers's family nor to any other
5 person or entity. (READ)
6 Now, I understand what he is saying there is that a
7 trust was established, money was put into it and
8 there is no record and there are no appointment or
9 loans made out of that trust money. If I can just
10 come back to your evidence and if I could ask you
11 to look at page 59 of your transcript.
12 You say there, Ascot Ventures, I believe, there is a
13 trust and the person who has received a distribution
14 out of that trust is Mrs. Sonia Rogers. Now, when
15 you talk about the Ascot Venture trust there, is
16 that the trust that was originally set up by Captain
17 Rogers that you are talking about.
18 A. As I said, who set it up way back I do not know the
19 details. In conversations with Mr. Furze, I
20 believed, that A/A3 had an association with a trust
21 and I believe, to the best of my knowledge, from
22 just conversation that A/A3 was in some way
23 connected to a trust called Ascot Ventures.
24 9 Q. I think you fairly said that your information was
25 sketchy or very sketchy, I think, was the phrase you
26 used at page 56 of your evidence?
27 A. Again, I do not have details and why I used
28 'sketchy' there was that it is word of mouth from
29 when I was talking to Mr. Furze and, therefore, I
11
1 don't have the detail. Something like this now,
2 exhibit (l)this is by Barry Benjamin, adds further
3 detail to my knowledge.
4 10 Q. You would not have been party to what Mr. Benjamin
5 was doing or not doing so you just read what he says
6 as that, is that right?
7 A. Absolutely, and an example of that is, obviously,
8 Ascot Venture no longer exists now and is now Rainy
9 Day and that is something that is totally new to me.
10 11 Q. One of the points that Mrs. Roger has made in the
11 course of giving evidence to this inquiry is that
12 she, having obtained certain monies, approximately
13 £150,000 gave the money to Mr. Traynor. That is
14 evidence of a source of money going to him. What I
15 want to suggest to you is this, in circumstances
16 where Mr. Benjamin who appears to be the person in
17 charge of the trust says, the original trust
18 established by Captain Rogers has not had its
19 capital affected by an appointment. It is possible
20 there might be some other source of money that you
21 see recorded in the memorandum account that is other
22 than the trust monies that were originally put in
23 place by the late Captain Rogers which could be the
24 source of payments to Mrs. Rogers?
25 A. I just want to be clear on what you are putting to
26 me there. I think what you are saying is, is it
27 possible that A/A3 as a consolidated amount of
28 money could have monies from a trust and monies from
29 other sources which you have just told me about
12
1 there.
2 12 Q. That is exactly what I am asking?
3 A. I would not know how they would treat the split, if
4 they were to split, and there possibly could be a
5 split of funds in Hamilton Ross and if Hamilton Ross
6 decided to deposit, for whatever reason, all of
7 those funds in one account but in their books have
8 the trust money, and other money, in separate
9 accounts, that's possible. It is an accounting
10 function, I presume, which would be carried out by
11 Hamilton Ross as the trustees and or the management
12 company as they are referred to here.
13 13 Q. The reason I am asking this question is because I
14 wanted to see could what Mr. Benjamin have said be
15 accepted as accurate in circumstances where you were
16 still able to give Mrs. Rogers money out of A/A3 in
17 circumstances where the original trust monies were
18 not touched?
19 A. He is the person ultimately responsible for the
20 accounting of the monies and if he has split it down
21 I see it at one stage as A/A3. If he accounts for
22 it differently in his books then what he is saying
23 here, obviously, is what he believes is the case in
24 Western International books.
25 14 Q. When you were giving evidence to the Inspectors and
26 the evidence that we see in the transcript that we
27 have been given, was your intention to suggest that
28 the money had to have come out of the trust?
29 A. All I knew is that A/A3 existed. That there was
13
1 money coming out of that and, as I have said in my
2 evidence, I believed that it had an association with
3 Ascot. That information, as I have said in page 65,
4 line 1, of my evidence on 11th January, 2000 was
5 sketchy information because of what I was told by
6 Mr. Furze. I did not have evidence of what was in
7 Cayman and, obviously, I did not have this
8 information that you now present in front of me.
9 15 Q. Do you want to contradict what was said in Mr.
10 Benjamin's affidavit, that can't be right? Exhibit
11 (1) .
12 A. It is a clarification rather than a contradiction in
13 my belief. I said I have given funds out of A/A3
14 and what we now have in front of us is A/A3
15 represented trust funds which still has the
16 relationship with Ascot and funds, Mrs. Rogers has
17 given for another use and that's where those
18 distributions were coming from, I believe, and the
19 trust funds were not the inference here in what is
20 stated there in 5(e) that no appointments were made
21 from the trust proper itself. Exhibit (1).
22 16 Q. I want to ask you another question and if you do not
23 know say so. Are you aware of any other accounts
24 that used the designation A/A and a numeral or
25 designations like that that when related to what was
26 out in Cayman would not be made up from a series of
27 sources. In other words, a deposit here, a trust
28 fund there. Had you ever seen any evidence of those
29 sort of accounts, maybe, coming from a series of
14
1 sources?
2 A. I think in going through with the Inspectors and,
3 indeed, institutions carrying out other
4 investigations the combinations are wide and varied.
5 To say one or the other, there had been umpteen
6 combinations of scenarios.
7 17 Q. The concept of a combination of funds turning up in
8 your books as a single memorandum account is not
9 impossible or not unusual?
10 A. It is not a surprise to me. It is something that
11 they have, obviously, managed in this particular way
12 and it is quite possible that peculiarity could
13 exist.
14 18 Q. In those circumstances, as far as you are concerned,
15 you have no reason to disbelieve Mr. Benjamin's
16 affidavit that of the Captain Rogers trust no
17 appointments or loans were made out of it?
18 A. He has the information available to him which I do
19 not and he has, obviously, sworn that information in
20 front of a notary public in Cayman and so I have to
21 believe that what is put in front of me is the facts
22 as he sees it.
23 19 Q. You do not wish to contradict them?
24 A. No, I cannot. I have no evidence to contradict them
25 on.
26 20 Q. Thank you very much.
27
28
29
15
1 MR. PADRAIG COLLERY WAS FURTHER WXAMINED BY
2 MS. MACKEY:
4 MS. MACKEY: Mr. Collery, can I just
5 clarify a couple of things
6 here, if you would not mind. Am I correct in saying
7 that you on a number of occasions made a number of
8 payments to Mrs. Mason on Mrs. Roger's behalf?
9 A. Yes, I believe Mrs. Mason acted as the courier and
10 came to me and, yes, I made a number of payments.
11 21 Q. Did you debit those payments in the memorandum
12 accounts to A/A3?
13 A. I did.
14 22 Q. Was A/A3 a memorandum account of an account held in
15 the name of Hamilton Ross in Cayman?
16 A. It was.
17 23 Q. A memorandum of something in Hamilton Ross?
18 A. Yes.
19 24 Q. Does that mean that if we accept Mr. Benjamin's
20 evidence as correct that Mrs. Rogers was, in fact,
21 entitled to receive money in her own right from a
22 Hamilton Ross account unrelated to her husband's
23 trust?
24 A. What it appears here is that, if I may go back now
25 with the evidence in front of me now, A/A3 appears
26 to be a pooled account for a situation that now
27 appears is one part of that pool, I think there was
28 figures mentioned but I do not know what the extent
29 of the pool is, if that is the case, which
16
1 represented a trust fund. Another pool represented
2 funds that were, at some stage, given to Mr.
3 Traynor, I think that is what is mentioned there.
4 A/A3 was the vehicle or the account through which
5 those was debited and what appears from
6 Mr. Benjamin's affidavit that that debit, and I
7 don't know, I can only again look at it from an
8 accountant's perspective is that if you had a pool
9 and you had two accounts, because that's the way the
10 bureau system worked, was that when that went out to
11 Cayman, and we discussed that, that those
12 transactions were debited not to the trust pool or
13 trust account proper, as it were, but it went to
14 this other account proper.
15 25 Q. At the end of the day what it means is, as I
16 understand it now and if we accept the evidence,
17 which we must, of Mr. Benjamin which you do not
18 contradict it must mean that monies belonging to
19 Mrs. Rogers were held in Hamilton Ross, must it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 26 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
22 Mr. Rowan, do you have any question.
23 MR. ROWAN: Not for the present, thank
24 you.
25 MS. MACKEY: Mr. Sheehan.
26
27
28
29
17
1 MR. PADRAIG COLLERY WAS FURTHER EXAMINED BY MR.
2 SHEEHAN:
4 MR. SHEEHAN: No, I would just like to
5 press with Mr. Collery
6 that in relation to what appears to be a conflict of
7 evidence here that you have given your statements
8 and your evidence to the Inspectors in good faith in
9 the context of the knowledge available to you at the
10 time. I think what is clear now, and maybe you
11 would confirm this, is that you are not in
12 possession of all of the information and when you
13 make a statement linking Ascot Ventures and A/A3 and
14 Sonia Rogers you are doing so in the context of
15 limited knowledge that you have?
16 A. Absolutely, I have always said that. It is to the
17 best of my understanding and belief as to the
18 relationships that were held there. If further
19 evidence, as is in this case has come to light, then
20 I have to accept that.
21 MS. MACKEY: Absolutely, Mr. Collery.
22 We accept absolutely that
23 your evidence is always given in good faith and we
24 thank you very much for your elucidation on matters
25 here today.
26 Thank you very much.
27
28
29 THE INTERVIEW WAS THEN CONCLUDED
18
Appendix XV (113) Captain Tim Rogers
Captain Tim Rogers.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mrs Sonia Rogers dated 27 March 2000.
b) Statement of Mrs Sonia Rogers dated 24 March 2000.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MRS. SONIA ROGERS
UNDER OATH
ON MONDAY, 27TH MARCH 2 00 0
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MRS. SONIA ROGERS
Represented by: MR. RICHARD LAW NESBITT SC
Instructed by: MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA
SOLICITORS
2 0 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD
DUBLIN 4
I N D E X
MRS. S. ROGERS MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 6 - 5 3
MS. MACKEY 54 - 66
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 67 - 69

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON MONDAY
2 27TH MARCH 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Good morning
5 Mrs. Jorgensen. We will
6 start our interview now. My name is Declan Costello
7 and on my right is Ms. Mackey. We are the
8 Inspectors appointed, as you know, by
9 The High Court.
10
11 I should explain to you, Mrs. Jorgensen, that this
12 is not a Court or it is not a Tribunal. It is an
13 interview. You are being interviewed under the
14 order of the Court and our statutory powers.
15
16 If in the course of the interview you wish us to
17 stop asking any questions, and wish to take advice
18 from your counsel and solicitor, please tell us so
19 and we will stop.
20
21 Similarly, if your counsel and solicitor wish us to
22 stop because they wish to give you advice, they are,
23 of course, at liberty to do so and we will stop and
24 you can consult with your legal advisors.
25
26 We obtained the statement of declaration that you
27 wish to make to us just before we came in here and
28 we understand perfectly what the position is. We
29 understand the circumstances in which you are
4
1 attending here today and we are exercising our
2 powers conferred on us by the Court and by The
3 Statute in asking you to attend.
5 Mrs. Jorgensen, this interview is held under oath
6 and I am now going to ask our solicitor,
7 Ms. Cummins, to administer the oath to you.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MRS. SONIA ROGERS, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mrs. Jorgensen, we wrote
5 you a long letter on the
6 20th January last in the course of which we asked if
7 you could supply us with a written statement and we
8 also asked for all documents that you would have in
9 your power and possession in relation to the matters
10 we raised.
11
12 Just before we came in we obtained a written
13 statement from you, a short written statement, which
14 has been given to us but we have obtained no
15 documents at all.
16
17 Accordingly, it may be necessary for us to ask you
18 to come in again. We would certainly require to see
19 a great deal more documentation. Depending on the
20 information that we can get without documents from
21 today's interview we will ascertain what further
22 questions we need to ask you.
23
24 I am afraid Mrs. Jorgensen that it may be necessary
25 to ask you to come in again. However, we will see
26 how we can get on today in the light of the
27 information which you have given us in the
28 statement.
29
6
1 It seems to me that it would be useful if you took
2 the statement. Have you got a copy of it there
3 (Exhibit 1)?
4 A. Yes .
5 2 Q. If we just go through your statement, Mrs.
6 Jorgensen. Your husband died on 1st January 1984.
7 When were you married?
8 A. 1965.
9 3 Q. Your husband was a very well known figure in the
10 bloodstock industry. Perhaps, you could tell me
11 where he carried on his bloodstock interests; and
12 the name of companies, if any, which he had
13 established in which they were carried on; and where
14 were the farms; and generally about your husband's
15 business?
16 A. Well, we had farms in Ireland.
17 4 Q. Yes?
18 A. And New Zealand and America.
19 5 Q. Yes?
20 A. And he carried on business from them. I don't think
21 he had any companies.
22 6 Q. Sorry?
23 A. I don't think he had any companies.
24 7 Q. You do not think he had any companies?
25 A. No.
26 8 Q. That were in his own...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. I have to tell you, Judge, I didn't know an awful
28 lot of his businesses before...(INTERJECTION).
29 9 Q. Yes?
1 A. Before he died. I really was at home looking after
2 children and entertaining people at home and doing
3 that side of the thing. I really had nothing to do
4 with the business before but I obviously know the
5 studs he had and where he carried on his business
6 from.
7 10 Q. Could you just tell me where the studs where?
8 A. In New Zealand.
9 11 Q. In Ireland first?
10 A. In Ireland?
11 12 Q. Yes?
12 A. At Airlie Stud at Lucan.
13 13 Q. Yes?
14 A. At Simmonstown.
15 14 Q. Where is that in?
16 A. In Celbridge.
17 15 Q. Yes?
18 A. Well, before he died he had other studs. He had
19 Loughtown, which is near Dunsany -- Loughmore,
20 sorry, and Loughtown, which is Donadee, and
21 Grangewilliam, which is Maynooth. He had Baroda at
22 one time. I am just trying to think if there is
23 anything else. I think that is it.
24 16 Q. Yes?
25 A. I might have left something out but I think I have
26 got them.
27 17 Q. Mrs. Jorgensen, these farms, these lands, were all
28 owned by your husband, were they?
29 A. No, they weren't.

1 18 Q. Who were they owned by?
2 A. He had partners.
3 19 Q. Yes. Do you know was there companies established
4 between the partners who owned the land?
5 A. Not that I know of.
6 20 Q. Yes. You can find out for us?
7 A. Yes.
8 21 Q. Yes?
9 A. Yes.
10 22 Q. The land may have been owned not by your husband but
11 by your husband with others, is that right?
12 A. Yes, that is what I really mean, yes.
13 23 Q. Yes. And...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. I mean I owned Grangewilliam with my mother and my
15 husband.
16 24 Q. Yes?
17 A. That sort of thing.
18 25 Q. Yes. I would like you just to tell me what you
19 owned, what lands you owned, with your husband?
20 A. I owned a third of Grangewilliam.
21 26 Q. Yes?
22 A. That was it.
23 27 Q. That was it?
24 A. Yes.
25 28 Q. And the others?
26 A. I bought myself, yes.
27 29 Q. Yes. The others would have been owned by your
28 husband and his partners, is that it?
29 A. Yes, I don't really know who.
9
1 30 Q. You do not know?
2 A. No.
3 31 Q. The business that was carried on, the bloodstock
4 business that was carried on, on these lands, do you
5 know whether companies ran this business?
6 A. No, he ran it.
7 32 Q. I know he ran it. I am sorry but do you know
8 whether or not they were run by companies or not?
9 A. No, nothing was run by -- he ran -- as far as I know
10 he just ran it.
11 33 Q. Yes. You can ascertain this for us. You can find
12 out for us how your husband carried on this
13 bloodstock business?
14 A. Yes, I suppose so, yes.
15 34 Q. In addition your husband had land in New Zealand,
16 had he, or did he own land himself or with others?
17 A. No, himself with his -- I think it was a trust
18 again.
19 35 Q. What was the name of the trust do you think?
20 A. It was a discretionary trust, I think, of some sort.
21 36 Q. No. The name of the company that was running the
22 land if it was a company?
23 A. I don't think it was a company.
24 37 Q. You think a trust owned it?
25 A. Yes, I think it was a trust.
26 38 Q. Again, will you ask your solicitor to ascertain
27 particulars of how he owned the land in New Zealand?
28 A. Yes.
29 39 Q. And also whether or not it was carried on by a
10
1 business?
2 A. Yes.
3 4 0 Q. By a company?
4 A. Yes.
5 41 Q. Where was the land in New Zealand? Do you remember
6 the name of the place?
7 A. Yes, it was called Grangewilliam Stud New Zealand.
8 42 Q. We know, at least it would appear, that there was a
9 company established in the Cayman Islands called
10 Ascot Holdings Limited. Do you know whether this
11 company was involved in the New Zealand stud
12 business?
13 A. No, Ascot Holdings traded with the trust.
14 43 Q. It traded with the trust?
15 A. Yes.
16 44 Q. Grangewilliam stud was in New Zealand?
17 A. Yes.
18 45 Q. What about in the United States of America?
19 A. The stud my husband owned there was called Kenary.
20 4 6 Q. Again, do you know did he own the land himself or
21 had he partners?
22 A. He had a partner.
23 47 Q. A partner?
24 A. Yes.
25 48 Q. What was his name?
26 A. Robert Clay.
27 4 9 Q. Do you know where the Kenary Stud was
28 Mrs. Jorgensen?
29 A. In Kentucky.
11
1 50 Q. In Kentucky?
2 A. Yes.
3 51 Q. Again, I must ask you to ask your solicitors to
4 obtain particulars of the ownership of the land and
5 of any company that might have operated the stud
6 business on the land?
7 A. Yes.
8 52 Q. Apart from these interests did your husband carry on
9 any other business or have any other business
10 interests, Mrs. Jorgensen?
11 A. No, that was his life.
12 53 Q. That was his life?
13 A. Yes.
14 54 Q. Yes. What family did you have? How many children
15 did you have?
16 A. Two sons.
17 55 Q. Two sons, yes. Do they carry on in the business?
18 A. One is in the business with me.
19 56 Q. Yes?
20 A. And the other is in America.
21 57 Q. Yes. You said, when I was asking but about the
22 New Zealand farm, that you thought it was a trust, a
23 discretionary trust, that was involved in it. Can
24 you tell me what you know about that?
25 A. No, I can't. I can't remember.
26 58 Q. Yes. You cannot remember the details perhaps?
27 A. We sold it and it is gone and I cannot remember. I
28 can't remember.
29 59 Q. When did you sell it?
12
1 A. Twelve years ago. I am not certain. Ten years ago
2 maybe.
3 60 Q. Yes. You operated it for sometime then?
4 A. I operated it for about four years, five years,
5 after he died.
6 61 Q. Yes. I just would like you to tell me how that
7 operation was carried on? How were the funds sent
8 to New Zealand and how were they sent back from
9 New Zealand to you?
10 A. We had proper authority to do it.
11 62 Q. No. I just want you to tell me how it was done?
12 A. I honestly -- I didn't really involve myself in the
13 financial end of it I am afraid.
14 63 Q. I am sure not. However, just tell me what you know
15 about it?
16 A. Well, I just ran the horse end of it.
17 64 Q. Yes?
18 A. And I managed the stallions that were there.
19 65 Q. Yes?
20 A. And managed the mares that were there, sold the
21 yearlings and it was organised really by my
22 trustees.
23 66 Q. Who were they?
24 A. Connor Crowley organised it for me. He was my
25 advisor.
26 67 Q. Yes?
27 A. On everything to do with finance.
28 68 Q. Yes?
29 A. And I did the horse management and he did all the
13
1 other bit and he helped me with all the -- I had
2 other trusts, the other two trusts at home. He
3 helped me with all that.
4 69 Q. Just you mentioned trustees, was Mr. Crowley a
5 trustee?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 70 Q. Do you know...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. He advised me over everything.
9 71 Q. I know. I just want to know whether he advised you
10 as an accountant or whether he was a trustee as well
11 as an accountant?
12 A. Yes, he was a trustee.
13 72 Q. Do you know who the other trustees were?
14 A. Liam McGonagle was one.
15 73 Q. Yes?
16 A. And John Byrne was the other.
17 74 Q. Yes?
18 A. But Conor was really the one that worked with me.
19 75 Q. These trustees, and in particular Mr. Crowley, would
20 have had to have legal advice, I am sure. Do you
21 know who their solicitors were?
22 A. Who my solicitors were?
23 76 Q. First of all who your solicitors were?
24 A. My solicitors are Kennedy McGonagle.
25 77 Q. Yes. Do you know were Kennedy McGonagle also
26 solicitors to the trust?
27 A. Yes, I think so.
28 78 Q. Yes?
29 A. Well, they advised us on everything any way.
14
1 79 Q. Yes. You, I am sure, have your own personal
2 accountant, Mrs. Jorgensen. Who was that? Who
3 looked after your own personal accounts?
4 A. Kennedy Stokes...(INTERJECTION).
5 80 Q. Stokes Kennedy Crowley?
6 A. Yes.
7 81 Q. Yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 82 Q. Stokes Kennedy Crowley would have looked after the
10 accounts of the trustees too, would they?
11 A. Yes.
12 83 Q. Do you think?
13 A. Yes.
14 84 Q. Yes. That was Mr. Connor Crowley's firm?
15 A. Yes.
16 85 Q. Would you just look at the statement there
17 Mrs. Rogers, at the first sentence there:
18 "Some time after his death Des Traynor

told me that my husband had shortly
19 before he died established a
discretionary trust abroad for my
20 benefit."?
21
22 Did you know Mr. Traynor before your husband's
23 death?
24 A. I think I might have met him at a party or
25 something, at a social outing of some sort but I
26 can't -- no.
27 86 Q. You had not met him professionally?
28 A. No, certainly not.
29 87 Q. You had not sought his advice on anything before
15
1 this stage?
2 A. No, no, no.
3 88 Q. Did your husband tell you whether or not he had
4 himself established a trust before his death?
5 A. No, he didn't but he didn't tell me a lot of things.
6 89 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
7 A. So I ... (INTERJECTION) .
8 90 Q. Have you since discovered that he had?
9 A. Well, I know there was a trust, yes.
10 91 Q. You see Mrs. Rogers we are not concerned today about
11 your husband's affairs except insofar as they may
12 assist in ascertaining your affairs, and we may have
13 to go into this matter later. However, I think in
14 relation to your affairs I wish to know whether or
15 not he ever told you that he had a trust during his
16 life time?
17 A. No.
18 92 Q. Did you know anything about the...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. But he...(INTERJECTION).
20 93 Q. Sorry?
21 A. He didn't tell me very much.
22 94 Q. I see. Very well?
23 A. About business.
24 95 Q. So...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. To be truthful with you. So I...(INTERJECTION).
26 96 Q. So it was after his death?
27 A. Yes.
28 97 Q. Mrs. Jorgensen, were you appointed one of his
29 executors?
16
1 A. Yes.
2 98 Q. Who were the other executors beside yourself?
3 A. The trustees I told you before. The same trustees.
4 99 Q. You and these three other people?
5 A. Yes.
6 100 Q. Were appointed executors?
7 A. Yes.
8 101 Q. Kennedy McGonagle were the solicitors?
9 A. Yes.
10 102 Q. Who was the beneficiary under your husband's Will?
11 Were you the entire beneficiary, or was it
12 distributed between you and your family, or how was
13 it done, just generally?
14 A. I think I was the beneficiary.
15 103 Q. Pardon?
16 A. I think I was the beneficiary.
17 104 Q. You were the beneficiary?
18 A. But presumably my children could get some. I can't
19 remember how the Will worked but my children got so
20 much and I got...(INTERJECTION).
21 105 Q. Do you think that you were...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. I would have to ask my solicitor this.
23 106 Q. You would have to ask?
24 A. Yes.
25 107 Q. Yes. Perhaps, we could be told by your solicitor
26 now what it was?
27 MR. 0'SHEA: Judge, the Will was a
28 discretionary trust Will.
29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.
17
1 MR. O'SHEA: The beneficiaries being
2 Mrs. Rogers and her
3 children.
5 MR. O'SHEA: And the trust assets were
6 primarily appointed to
7 Mrs. Rogers.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: By whom?
9 MR. O'SHEA: By the trustees.
11 MR. O'SHEA: In 1991.
13 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.
14 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: What happened between 1984
15 and 1991?
16 MR. O'SHEA: The trustees ran the
17 business in effect.
19 MR. O'SHEA: Yes.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And was then everything
21 appointed to Mrs. Rogers?
22 MR. O'SHEA: Everything was appointed
23 to Mrs. Rogers.
24 108 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Traynor told you that
25 he had established a
26 discretionary trust abroad for your benefit. Did he
27 tell you where?
28 A. No.
29 109 Q. And did you...(INTERJECTION)?
18
1 A. Not to my knowledge.
2 110 Q. When did you find out it was the Cayman Islands?
3 A. I don't know actually.
4 111 Q. You know today, do you?
5 A. Yes, I do, and I knew...(INTERJECTION).
6 112 Q. And did you know last year?
7 A. Yes, I definitely...(INTERJECTION).
8 113 Q. Did you know ten years ago?
9 A. No, I don't think I did know. Yes, I might have
10 known ten years ago.
11 114 Q. When you got appointed all the funds, you would have
12 known?
13 A. Yes, I would have known, yes.
14 115 Q. Would you have known before that do you think?
15 A. I don't think I asked him.
16 116 Q. No. Did you know, Mrs. Rogers, I am asking you?
17 A. Yes, I think I knew it. Yes, I think I probably
18 did.
19 117 Q. Yes. Would I be correct in saying that you probably
20 knew shortly after your husband's death?
21 A. Yes.
22 118 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 119 Q. Tell me what Mr. Traynor told you?
25 A. Very little because I didn't ask him.
26 120 Q. Just tell me what he told you?
27 A. He said that my husband had set up this trust for my
28 benefit.
29 121 Q. Did he tell you how much was in it?
19
1 A. No, he didn't.
2 122 Q. Yes. You did not know how much you were getting
3 from the trust?
4 A. No.
5 123 Q. Did you ever know?
6 A. I knew in the end, yes.
7 124 Q. Yes. What do you mean by "in the end"?
8 A. Well, I knew what the -- I mean I knew what the
9 ultimate amount was.
10 125 Q. When did you know how much approximately you had got
11 in the trust in the Cayman Islands?
12 A. I think just recently. I mean, you know not before.
13 126 Q. You mean in the last year or two?
14 A. Well, really when I -- he would tell me that there
15 was -- that it was all all right and there
16 was...(INTERJECTION).
17 127 Q. Mrs. Rogers, will you just listen to the question I
18 am asking you?
19 A. Yes.
20 128 Q. The question I am asking you is: When did you know
21 how much was in the trust, approximately?
22 A. I knew when I asked Padraig finally,
23 Padraig Collery, what was in it.
24 129 Q. When Traynor told you that your husband had
25 established a trust?
26 A. Yes.
27 130 Q. Did you think it was for one thousands pounds, or
28 ten thousand pounds, or a million pounds? Did you
29 know?
20
1 A. I had absolutely no idea and I didn't ask.
2 131 Q. You did not ask?
3 A. No.
4 132 Q. Were you not concerned to know how much money you
5 would have after your husband's death?
6 A. No, I wasn't because I had a lot of other things to
7 organise myself, and to run.
8 133 Q. Yes?
9 A. And I reckoned that -- Des Traynor was supposed to
10 be a very clever man and knew what he was doing.
11 134 Q. So I understand what your evidence is to us?
12 A. I did -- I left it to him.
13 135 Q. So I understand what your evidence is Mrs.
14 Jorgensen, I want to be clear on this?
15 A. Yes.
16 136 Q. Do you know how much was in the trust?
17 A. Yes, I do now know.
18 137 Q. When your husband died?
19 A. I do know now how much. I didn't know how much was
20 in it when he died, no, but I know now how much
21 there is there.
22 138 Q. Yes. Have you added much to the trust in your
23 lifetime?
24 A. Not very much, no.
25 139 Q. What is now there must be pretty close to what was
26 there when your husband died?
27 A. Well, it is possible to see what I added to it.
28 140 Q. No. I am just asking you, is that not so?
29 A. Yes, but I wouldn't be able to know how much there
21
1 was in the beginning because -- unless I worked it
2 out, would I?
3 141 Q. So your evidence to me, to us, today is that you
4 have no idea how much your husband put into the
5 trust?
6 A. No, I don't know how much it was.
7 142 Q. I see. Did Mr. Traynor tell you what the effect of
8 the discretionary trust was?
9 A. Yes, I understand what a discretionary trust is.
10 143 Q. Tell me what he told you?
11 A. I don't know. He just -- I think he said -- I don't
12 know what he told me. I can't remember what he told
13 me.
14 144 Q. You cannot remember?
15 A. No.
16 145 Q. Did he tell you you could use the money?
17 A. No. He did, at one stage later on, tell me I could
18 use the money and I used some in the 1990s.
19 146 Q. How did you use it?
20 A. He said I had to let him know when I wanted some
21 money.
22 147 Q. Yes?
23 A. And he would arrange it for me.
24 148 Q. Used you let him know then?
25 A. Yes.
26 149 Q. What would you do?
27 A. I would ring him up and say I wanted £10,000.
28 150 Q. Yes?
29 A. And he would say, "Well, I will let you know when I
22
1 have it".
2 151 Q. Would he then?
3 A. Yes.
4 152 Q. What would he do?
5 A. My secretary went in and picked it up.
6 153 Q. What was your secretary's name?
7 A. Kay Mason.
8 154 Q. Did she pick it up in cash or in cheque?
9 A. In cash.
10 155 Q. In cash?
11 A. Yes.
12 156 Q. Any time you drew money then from the trust funds,
13 you drew it from Mr. Traynor, is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 157 Q. You would write to him or ring him up and then your
16 secretary would collect it?
17 A. Yes.
18 158 Q. Can you remember how often this would have happened
19 Mrs. Jorgensen? How often?
20 A. I have got a list Judge of the times I drew.
21 159 Q. Yes?
22 A. And how much I drew, which I can give to you.
23 160 Q. Yes. How was that list prepared, do you know?
24 A. Sorry, I don't understand what you mean, "how was it
25 prepared"?
26 161 Q. Was it prepared by your accountant?
27 A. By my secretary.
28 162 Q. The list of monies you received?
29 A. We kept a list of what we had received from him. I
23
1 kept a list in the office.
2 163 Q. In the office?
3 A. Yes.
4 164 Q. The list, that you are now going to hand into us,
5 was that prepared from the documents in your office?
6 A. No, I don't have documents, but I kept an account of
7 what I had spent, yes.
8 165 Q. You kept an account?
9 A. Yes.
10 166 Q. Was this in some sort of book or something, you kept
11 an account?
12 A. No.
13 167 Q. In your head then?
14 A. No, not in my head. I wouldn't be able to keep it
15 in my head.
16 168 Q. Would you not tell me Mrs. Jorgensen?
17 A. I had it on a bit of paper, what I had spent.
18 169 Q. No. I am...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. What I had drawn.
20 170 Q. Yes. I understand that you drew. When did you
21 start drawing? Was it shortly after your husband's
22 death?
23 A. No, no, no.
24 171 Q. When did you start drawing?
25 A. 1993.
26 172 Q. You started drawing?
27 A. Yes.
28 173 Q. We will see this in the course of time but you have
29 prepared a document which says that you drew
24
1 in 1993. Does it say what the sum was?
2 A. £10,000.
3 174 Q. Where did you get that information from? It would
4 have been difficult to keep that in your head, would
5 it not?
6 A. No, I had this list.
7 175 Q. Somebody prepared a list, your secretary prepared a
8 list?
9 A. Yes.
10 176 Q. From what?
11 A. From what I had asked her.
12 177 Q. Mrs. Jorgensen, I think you understand my question.
13 A. No, I am sorry.
14 178 Q. Do you not understand it?
15 A. No.
16 179 Q. Very well then. The secretary wrote down on a piece
17 of paper, that was subsequently to be typed up, that
18 you had received £10,000 in 1993 from Mr. Traynor,
19 is that right?
20 A. Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking me?
21 180 Q. What is written on that page? (Same handed)(Exhibit
22 2) What do not you understand, Mrs. Jorgensen?
23 A. Those are the lists of the amounts I asked for.
24 181 Q. Who wrote that list?
25 A. My secretary.
26 182 Q. Did you give her the figures?
27 A. Well, those were the figures...(INTERJECTION).
28 183 Q. Sorry, listen to my question?
29 A. Yes.
25
1 184 Q. Did you give these figures to you secretary, to
2 Ms. Mason?
3 A. No.
4 185 Q. No?
5 A. No.
6 186 Q. Where did she get them from then?
7 A. I don't know.
8 187 Q. You do not know?
9 A. No. I am sorry I don't quite understand
10 what...(INTERJECTION).
11 188 Q. What do you not understand, Mrs. Jorgensen?
12 A. Well, I asked for this money.
13 189 Q. No, no. Do not worry about that. We will come to
14 that later. I am just asking you about how this
15 list was prepared by Ms. Mason. You said you did
16 not give her -- you did not tell her that you
17 drew £10,000 on the 15th March 1993?
18 A. I said I didn't tell her?
19 190 Q. Yes, that is right?
20 A. But she must have known because she collected it.
21 191 Q. Yes. How did she...(INTERJECTION)
22 A. She collects all my money.
23 192 Q. Are you saying then that she made up this list from
24 her own knowledge?
25 A. Yes, obviously, I suppose.
26 193 Q. Obviously, you suppose. You did not tell her
27 anything?
28 A. Well, I asked her to collect the money and she
29 collected it.
26
1 194 Q. No, no. Mrs. Jorgensen, you are going astray from
2 the question. The question I am asking you is how
3 this list was prepared?
4 A. It was prepared from what I collected, yes.
5 195 Q. No, no. How did Ms. Mason write down £10,000 on
6 15th March 1993?
7 A. She had a list of what she collected.
8 196 Q. That is what I would have thought?
9 A. Yes.
10 197 Q. Yes. Where was the list kept?
11 A. I had the list.
12 198 Q. Can you produce it for us?
13 A. Yes, (INDICATING) the list...(INTERJECTION).
14 199 Q. No, no. It is the original document I am concerned
15 about?
16 A. I don't have an original document. That is the
17 original. That is my list. I had no document.
18 200 Q. Mrs. Jorgensen, is Ms. Mason available to us? Is
19 she in your employment still?
20 A. Yes, she is.
21 201 Q. When did she prepare this list?
22 A. I don't know when she -- I don't know.
23 202 Q. Do your best, yesterday?
24 A. I don't know.
25 203 Q. Last week?
26 A. I honestly don't know when she...(INTERJECTION).
27 204 Q. Did you ask her to do it?
28 A. I wanted a list...(INTERJECTION).
29 205 Q. Did you ask her, Mrs. Jorgensen? Listen to the
27
1 questions I am asking you now and stop sparring with
2 me?
3 A. Yes.
4 206 Q. Did you ask her? Did you ask Ms. Mason to prepare
5 this list?
6 A. Yes, yes, I did.
7 207 Q. When.
8 A. Well, I had a list.
9 208 Q. When did you ask Ms. Mason to prepare this list?
10 A. Sorry, I don't know.
11 209 Q. Was it yesterday?
12 A. No, it wasn't yesterday.
13 210 Q. Was it last week?
14 A. No.
15 211 Q. When was it?
16 A. I am sorry, I don't know.
17 212 Q. You cannot remember when you asked her?
18 A. No.
19 213 Q. Was it this year?
20 A. No.
21 214 Q. This list then would have been prepared some time
22 last year, would it?
23 A. I don't know when the list was prepared.
24 215 Q. When did you ask her? Can you remember when you
25 asked her?
26 A. No, I can't.
27 216 Q. You cannot?
28 A. No.
29 217 Q. If you did not give her the information she must
28
1 have prepared the list herself then from her own
2 knowledge of it?
3 A. But we...(INTERJECTION).
4 218 Q. Listen to the question?
5 A. Yes.
6 219 Q. The question is if you did not tell her, am I
7 correct in assuming that she from her own knowledge
8 prepared the list?
9 A. Yes, I suppose so.
10 220 Q. What documents would she have?
11 A. She didn't have any documents.
12 221 Q. So she prepared it from her memory?
13 A. She wrote it from her memory.
14 222 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION) ?
15 A. From going to Des presumably.
16 223 Q. We would...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. I mean I...(INTERJECTION).
18 224 Q. Yes. We will require Ms. Mason to illicite this
19 point for us so we can pass from it. According to
20 this then you would have received no income at all
21 from the trust fund?
22 A. No accept... (INTERJECTION) .
23 225 Q. Until 1993?
24 A. Yes, that is true.
25 226 Q. I want you to look at page 31 (Exhibit 3) (Same
26 handed)?
27 A. Yes.
28 227 Q. I want you to look at a photostat of a cheque made
29 payable to you Mrs. Rogers on the 8th April 1982.
29
1 It is payable to you for £4,000 and it is Kentford
2 Securities Limited. Do you remember Kentford
3 Securities Limited?
4 A. No.
5 228 Q. Did you know that this was a cheque, that this was
6 an account that Mr. Traynor had from which he paid
7 people who were entitled to funds held by
8 "Ansbacher"?
9 A. It is apparently one of my -- is it, no.
10 229 Q. Very well. Mrs. Rogers, if you would just like to
11 put that down for now. If you, am I correct in
12 saying -- Mrs. Jorgensen, would you just pay
13 attention to what I am saying?
14 A. Sorry .
15 230 Q. Am I correct in saying that, in fact, you made
16 lodgements to this account through Mr. Traynor?
17 A. Well, I ran a trading account with the trust which I
18 was...(INTERJECTION).
19 231 Q. With Mr. Traynor?
20 A. Yes .
21 232 Q. Mr. Traynor?
22 A. Yes .
23 233 Q. You paid money into it?
24 A. Yes .
26 A. This was with horses.
27 235 Q. Do you know that you paid money into the "Ansbacher"
28 account?
29 A. I didn't know that because I didn't know until the

1 words "Ansbacher" -- I knew nothing about
2 "Ansbacher" until...(INTERJECTION).
3 236 Q. Yes. You give it to Mr. Traynor but this was to do
4 with the trust?
5 A. Yes.
6 237 Q. Of course, apart from Mr. Traynor looking after the
7 trust affairs, you would have had other bank
8 accounts, had you not? You had your own trust
9 under your husband's Will?
10 A. Yes, I had his Will trust.
11 238 Q. You had his Will trust?
12 A. Yes.
13 239 Q. That business, was it, carried on -- that was an
14 account, was it, carried on in The Lucan Branch?
15 A. Yes.
16 240 Q. Of AIB, was it?
17 A. That is right, yes.
18 241 Q. You had, for the purpose of carrying on your
19 business account at The Lucan Branch of AIB?
20 A. Yes.
21 242 Q. Did you have other bank accounts besides those?
22 A. Yes.
23 243 Q. Where were they?
24 A. All in Lucan branch.
25 244 Q. All in Lucan?
26 A. Yes, lots of different ones in Lucan Branch.
27 245 Q. In Lucan?
28 A. Yes.
29 246 Q. Then for the trust you would contact Mr. Traynor?
31
1 A. Yes.
2 247 Q. Used you go in to see him?
3 A. I did.
4 248 Q. Where did you go to see him?
5 A. I went to the Roadstone...(INTERJECTION).
6 249 Q. Head Offices?
7 A. Yes.
8 250 Q. In Fitzwilliam Square?
9 A. That is right.
10 251 Q. How often would you have gone in to see him?
11 A. I think probably once a year or that sort of thing,
12 18 months.
13 252 Q. Did he give you a statement?
14 A. He told me usually that everything was absolutely
15 fine.
16 253 Q. Did he give you a statement?
17 A. Yes, he told me what I...(INTERJECTION).
18 254 Q. No, no. Did he give you a statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 255 Q. Yes. A written statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 256 Q. Have you got those?
23 A. No.
24 257 Q. When did you get rid of those?
25 A. Three years ago I moved house.
26 258 Q. So the written statements that
27 Mr. Traynor...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. And I to get rid of -- I had thirty years of stuff.
29 259 Q. The written statements that Mr. Traynor had given
32
1 you?
2 A. Yes.
3 260 Q. You kept them up to three or four years ago?
4 A. Yes, I think I had them for a bit.
5 261 Q. Yes?
6 A. And then I got rid of them.
7 262 Q. Yes. Did those statements show you the amount of
8 money that was available to you in the trust?
9 A. No, I don't know what they did show. They must have
10 shown what was there, yes.
11 263 Q. Yes?
12 A. I suppose they must have done, yes.
13 264 Q. Yes. If you went in every year or 18 months to
14 Mr. Traynor you would have known this for a
15 considerable number of years?
16 A. No, I don't think to begin with I didn't. I think
17 to begin with he just told me everything was all
18 right and not to worry.
19 265 Q. So you have said?
20 A. And...(INTERJECTION).
21 266 Q. You have told me that you went in
22 every...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. And I didn't bother about it but I must have
24 known latterly.
25 267 Q. Can we go back to your statement now? Would you
26 look at your statement, Mrs. Jorgensen (Exhibit 1)?
27 A. Yes.
28 268 Q. It reads:
29 "When Des Traynor spoke to me I was

aware that my husband had established a
33
1 discretionary trust in Ireland in his
Will and had also established two
2 separate trusts of different lands all
for the benefit of my children and
3 myself."
5 What are they Mrs. Jorgensen?
6 A. This is my own -- this is what I look after at home.
7 269 Q. Would you just tell me, your husband had left
8 a Will?
9 A. Yes.
10 270 Q. He had appointed the three trustees that you
11 mentioned?
12 A. Yes.
13 271 Q. In addition he had established two separate trusts?
14 A. Yes.
15 272 Q. What are these?
16 A. They were for...(INTERJECTION).
17 273 Q. What are these?
18 A. These were for the lands, the various lands.
19 274 Q. When were these established?
20 A. When were they established? I don't know. I would
21 have to ask my solicitor.
22 275 Q. Do, do, yes. You can tell me?
23 MR. 0'SHEA: They were established,
24 Judge, a few years before
25 he died.
27 MR. 0'SHEA: I think one in 1979 and
28 the other in 1980 or 81.
34
1 MR. O'SHEA: I can established the
2 precise dates for you.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes .
4 MR. O'SHEA: And they related, as
5 Mrs. Rogers said, to
6 property.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes .
8 MR. O'SHEA: One related to lands at
9 Lucan and the other to
10 lands at Grangewilliam, part of the lands at
11 Grangewilliam.
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. These were
13 discretionary trusts and
14 who were the trustees?
15 MR. O'SHEA: No, they were absolute
16 trusts.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Total trusts. Who was
18 the...(INTERJECTION).
19 MR. O'SHEA: For the benefit of
20 Mrs. Rogers and her
21 children.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. Did the trust
23 operate then.
24 MR. O'SHEA: No.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Did the trust operate then
26 on death?
27 MR. O'SHEA: Well, they operated I
28 think when the children
29 reached 21.
35
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I see.
2 MR. O'SHEA: Or when the youngest
3 reached 21.
4 276 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, I see. If we just
5 look at the last sentence:
6 "I do not recall..."
8 Of the first paragraph:
9
"I do not recall if it was at this
10 meeting or at a subsequent meeting that
Des Traynor advised me that the trust
11 was involved in bloodstock."
12
13 What do you mean by that, Mrs. Jorgensen?
14 A. It was the first meeting we are talking about, is it
15 not?
16 277 Q. Would you look at the last sentence of the first
17 paragraph?
18 A. Yes. I don't -- well, I don't know whether it was
19 the first meeting or when it was. That is what I
20 mean.
21 278 Q. Tell me about the trust being involved in
22 bloodstock?
23 A. Well, it traded in bloodstock.
24 279 Q. Just tell me what Mr. Traynor told you?
25 A. I don't think he told me very much, Judge.
26 He...(INTERJECTION).
27 280 Q. Well, you have...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. He said that it was in...(INTERJECTION).
29 281 Q. You told me, you have given me some information
36
1 here, about this and I want you to tell me what you
2 were trying to convey to me?
3 A. Well, I am trying to convey to you that I don't know
4 whether it was at the first meeting or when he told
5 me that the business was involved in bloodstock.
6 282 Q. Just explain that to me?
7 A. And then...(INTERJECTION).
8 283 Q. No, no. Mrs. Jorgensen, please listen to the
9 questions that I am asking you?
10 A. Yes.
11 284 Q. Could you explain to me what you mean in your
12 statement when you say that the trust was involved
13 in bloodstock?
14 A. Well, the trust was involved in bloodstock. It came
15 from...(INTERJECTION).
16 285 Q. Tell me about that?
17 A. Well, it must have come from...(INTERJECTION).
18 286 Q. Tell me about the involvement of the trust in
19 bloodstock?
20 A. Well, it dealt in it.
21 287 Q. It dealt it?
22 A. Yes.
23 288 Q. Very well?
24 A. Yes.
25 289 Q. When you say "it dealt in it", the trust was
26 established in the Cayman Islands?
27 A. Yes.
28 290 Q. Who dealt in bloodstock?
29 A. Well, the Ascot Holdings dealt in it.
37
1 291 Q. Ascot Holdings?
2 A. Holdings. Sorry, I am being a bit stupid about
3 this. Ascot Holdings dealt in bloodstock.
4 292 Q. Did Mr. Traynor tell you that?
5 A. No, he told me to continue dealing with Ascot
6 Holdings.
7 293 Q. Do you see ...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. In bloodstock with the trust, sorry.
9 294 Q. Do you see, Mrs. Jorgensen, what you have written
10 here in your statement:
11 "Des Traynor advised me that the trust

was involved in bloodstock."
12
13 A. Yes.
14 295 Q. I want you to explain what you meant by that
15 statement?
16 A. Well, the original trust was involved obviously in
17 bloodstock.
18 296 Q. Yes. What was the original trust?
19 A. Well, presumably what my husband set up.
20 297 Q. Which was Ascot Holdings?
21 A. No, Ascot Holdings was set up after my husband died.
22 298 Q. By whom?
23 A. I was told by Des Traynor to deal in bloodstock with
24 the name of Ascot Holdings and this is what I did.
25 299 Q. Tell me about Ascot?
26 A. Ascot Holdings dealt with the trust.
27 300 Q. You were advised by Mr. Traynor that your bloodstock
28 business should be done through Ascot Holdings
29 Limited?
38
1 A. Certain amounts of it should be done. So, I bought
2 odd nominations for them, odd bits and pieces and
3 dealt with the trust.
4 301 Q. Ascot Holdings?
5 A. As Ascot Holdings.
6 302 Q. Yes?
7 A. Sorry, I am being a bit flustered.
8 303 Q. You are what?
9 A. I am just getting a bit flustered.
10 304 Q. Very well. Perhaps we will adjourn for a few
11 minutes?
12 A. No, I am all right.
13 305 Q. I am not. I would like a cup of coffee. I think
14 we will adjourn for a cup of coffee for about
15 ten minutes or so.
16
18
19 306 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Ms. Cummins, would you
20 see tab two. It is pages
21 35, 36 & 37. If you would hand those up to the
22 witness (Same handed)(Exhibits 4, 5, & 6)?
23 A. Yes.
24 307 Q. Have you got a copy there?
25 A. Yes.
26 308 Q. Mrs. Jorgensen, if you see the first one of these
27 accounts. It is a statement of account. It
28 is "Ansbacher Limited (Exhibit 4)"?
29 A. Yes.
39
1 309 Q. Then Hamilton Ross is the account holder?
2 A. Yes.
3 310 Q. There is a lodgement. Do you see there is a coded
4 letter there "A/A3"? Do you see on the right-hand
5 side?
6 A. Yes, sorry, yes.
7 311 Q. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 312 Q. This is page one?
10 A. Yes.
11 313 Q. Of this statement to Hamilton Ross?
12 A. Yes.
13 314 Q. The opening balance is nil and then a lodgement. On
14 the 3rd December 1992 there is a lodgement
15 of £360,366. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 315 Q. Were you told about the fact that your money was
18 being held, the trust money was been held, in the
19 account of, in the coded account in the name
20 of, Hamilton Ross?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 316 Q. You mentioned Mr. Collery there a short time ago.
23 Did you meet Mr. Collery?
24 A. I did.
25 317 Q. How often would you have met Mr. Collery?
26 A. I met him after Des Traynor died.
27 318 Q. What did he explain to you?
28 A. He explained to me that he would be running
29 the account.
40
1 319 Q. Yes. Did he explain to you that it was going to be
2 lodged in the name of Hamilton Ross?
3 A. No, I never heard of Hamilton Ross until recently.
4 320 Q. What I am just wondering was: The accounts which
5 you were given from time to time, in the form that
6 is shown there on that photostat, were they like
7 that?
8 A. I wasn't given these, no.
9 321 Q. You were not given those. Were you given something
10 in the form like that, in that form, but with the
11 top cut off so that you had, in typed form, the
12 date, the value, the description and the debit and
13 credit? Were you given that?
14 A. No, Judge.
15 322 Q. Would you just look at the page two of "A/A3
16 (Exhibit 5)"?
17 A. Yes.
18 323 Q. Again in the name of Hamilton Ross and that is 1993.
19 You see there are sums lodged to this account. Do
20 you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 324 Q. Would they be the sort of sums that you were lodging
23 to the account?
24 A. No, I lodged I think -- I know there was -- how much
25 is that?
26 325 Q. They are very substantial sums Mrs. Jorgensen?
27 A. I never put sums like that, no, because they were
28 small sums for horses.
29 326 Q. Yes?
41
1 A. They were never those sort of sums.
2 327 Q. You see the information which we have obtained is
3 that this "A/A3" was the coded number for your trust
4 Mrs. Jorgensen, and that this is the account of your
5 trust that was held in the name of Hamilton Ross,
6 and that this shows a record that these sums were
7 lodged in 1993?
8 A. I wouldn't have lodged those sorts of amounts, no.
9 328 Q. What sort of sums did you lodge?
10 A. I lodged I know £60,000 once for something that was
11 sold through a share-ring and that is the only one I
12 can remember offhand, but I certainly didn't lodge
13 those.
14 329 Q. Would you look at the next document which I want you
15 to consider? It is "A/A3" again and it is page 32
16 (Exhibit 6) and it is 1997? It shows the interest
17 to date at £12,000 and it shows drawn, and a very
18 substantial sum of money is drawn, of £2 million?
19 A. That was the total I thought was in that.
20 330 Q. That was -- you thought that?
21 A. Yes .
22 331 Q. Did you?
23 A. Yes .
24 332 Q. Yes?
25 A. So, I would...(INTERJECTION).
26 333 Q. Has this brought it back to your memory
27 then, Mrs. Jorgensen?
28 A. No, that was the final total I thought was there.
29 334 Q. However, you could not remember that before?
42
1 A. You didn't ask me Sir what the total was.
2 335 Q. Did I not?
3 A. No.
4 336 Q. I see?
5 A. No, you did not ask me in the end when I knew. That
6 was something that I did know.
7 337 Q. £2 million. That was...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. I gleaned that at the end, yes.
9 338 Q. Was it at the very beginning, was it early on
10 then, £2 million?
11 A. No, no, no.
12 339 Q. Had it increased over the years?
13 A. Yes.
14 340 Q. Why? How had it increased?
15 A. Well, presumably it increased because of how Des was
16 looking after it.
17 341 Q. You mean that he had invested the sums successfully
18 for you?
19 A. Well, presumably, yes.
20 342 Q. "Presumably" why do you presume that? Could it have
21 been interest?
22 A. Yes, I suppose it could have been.
23 343 Q. I must ask you this question: Mrs. Jorgensen, did
24 you pay tax on the interest that was earned in this
25 account?
26 A. No, I did not.
27 344 Q. If we turn back to your statement then?
28 A. Yes.
29 345 Q. Would you just go down to the third paragraph:
43
1 "Over the years the trust traded in
bloodstock through a company called
2 Ascot Holdings Limited and subsequently
Ascot Ventures Limited."
3
4 Would you mind telling me about that?
5 A. Yes, it traded as Ascot Holdings until -- I don't
6 know the date but it was after Des died when Padraig
7 Collery said to me that the trust was being changed
8 to Ascot Ventures and I didn't actually -- I think
9 he told me that there was some other company of
10 Ascot Ventures. He told me at the time, and it
11 wasn't until later when I was told -- when
12 The McCracken Tribunal was started that I was told
13 that somebody else had been Ascot Holdings and that
14 is why I changed to Ascot Ventures.
15 346 Q. You see it states then:
16 "Most of the horses purchased by this

company were held at our studs in
17 Ireland and this arrangement was on an
arm's length basis and keep fees were
18 charged to this company"?
19
20 A. Yes.
21 347 Q. Does it follow from this that the horses were the
22 property of the company Ascot Ventures Limited?
23 A. They were sold to Ascot Ventures, yes.
24 348 Q. Where was...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. But they paid keep. They paid insurance. They paid
26 like any client. They were treated like a client.
27 349 Q. Where was Ascot Ventures Limited incorporated?
28 A. Well, it was incorporated in the Cayman Islands.
29 350 Q. Mrs. Jorgensen, as I said at the outset we would
44
1 require all the documents that you have in your
2 power and possession in relation to this. Do you
3 know where The Trust Deed is, which your husband
4 caused it to be established?
5 A. I presume...(INTERJECTION).
6 351 Q. Before he died?
7 A. I presume it is in the Cayman Islands. I haven't
8 seen it.
9 352 Q. Have you given it to your solicitor or your
10 accountant?
11 A. I haven't seen it.
12 353 Q. Have you given it to your solicitor or your
13 accountant?
14 A. No.
15 354 Q. Did you ever request it from the Cayman Islands?
16 A. No.
17 355 Q. We will require a copy of this document, and also
18 any letters of wishes that may have been associated
19 with the document. Will you instruct your solicitor
20 to write requesting it from the Cayman Islands?
21 A. I will.
22 356 Q. Will you instruct your solicitor to ask the company
23 in the Cayman Islands to give them all
24 correspondance and accounts in relation to the trust
25 which they may have?
26 A. Yes .
27 357 Q. Will you instruction your solicitor to make
28 enquiries in the Cayman Islands concerning the
29 company called Ascot Holdings Limited, when it was

1 incorporated?
2 A. Yes.
3 358 Q. And all accounts in relation to that company and
4 Ascot Ventures Limited and all accounts in relation
5 to that company?
6 A. Yes.
7 359 Q. Will you come to the next paragraph of your
8 statement:
9 "In 1991 the trustees of a

discretionary trust, established on my
10 late husband's death following a change
in the Capital Acquisitions Tax
11 legislation, appointed all of the
trusts assets to me."
12
13 Are you referring to ...(INTERJECTION)
14 MR. O'SHEA: The Irish trusts, Judge.
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: The Irish Trust.
17 A. Yes.
18 360 Q. Very well. You say:
19 "I continued the business which

included trade with Ascot Holdings
20 Limited."
21
22 What does that mean?
23 A. Well, I continued to trade with Ascot Holdings with
24 -- I am sorry, with them until I
25 think 19...(INTERJECTION).
26 361 Q. Please, Mrs. Jorgensen, will you just listen to the
27 question I am asking?
28 A. Yes.
29 362 Q. You continued the business which included trade with
46
1 Ascot Holdings Limited. What does that mean?
2 A. I continued my business as I had been here and I
3 continued trading with Ascot Holdings.
4 363 Q. What does that mean? What did it mean "trading with
5 Ascot Holdings"?
6 A. Well, buying and selling.
7 364 Q. Buying and selling horses?
8 A. Yes .
9 365 Q. They were done by Ascot Holdings Limited?
10 A. Yes .
11 366 Q. How long did that continue for?
12 A. It wound down a few years ago because I changed my
13 business here a bit. I got out of stallions and I
14 went into mares and there were no more stallion
15 shares. I started working on different facets of
16 the business so there was nothing more for -- to be
17 trading with and that was really the reason why.
18 367 Q. When was that?
19 A. About three years ago, that sort of thing.
20 368 Q. Three years ago you -- up to three years ago you
21 were operating through Ascot Holdings Limited?
22 A. Yes, I wouldn't be able to give the exact year.
23 369 Q. However, about three years ago?
24 A. About, yes.
25 370 Q. If you were operating through your business here in
26 Ireland, which you had under your husband's Will,
27 why if you are operating Ascot Holdings did you --
28 where you concerned to change over to Ascot, the
29 other company that Mr. Collery told you about, Ascot

1 Ventures, for your Cayman business?
2 A. Because there was somebody else who had used the
3 account of Ascot Holdings and I didn't know this
4 until he told me.
5 371 Q. Did that not effect your decision to continue
6 trading with that company in respect of your Irish
7 business?
8 A. I am sorry, Judge, I changed to a different name.
9 I didn't think there was any problem if it was a
10 different company. It had changed from Ascot
11 Holdings to Ascot Ventures and I didn't -- I was
12 told -- I didn't think anything odd in it, no.
13 372 Q. As I understand it you continued trading, using the
14 Cayman company Ascot Holdings, for the property you
15 had obtained from your husband in your
16 husband's Will.
17 A. No.
18 373 Q. However, you changed for some reason?
19 A. No, no, sorry.
20 374 Q. Sorry?
21 A. Sorry.
22 375 Q. I am sorry. Maybe I have misunderstood you. Was
23 the Ascot Holdings only used for the Cayman?
24 A. That is right, yes.
25 376 Q. Yes?
26 A. Yes, sorry, sorry. It is completely separate the
27 other.
28 377 Q. Yes. I wonder is that so? Would you just look at
29 the paragraph that I have been referring you to,
48
1 paragraph 4:
2 "In 1991 the trustees of a

discretionary trust, established by my
3 late husband's death following a change
in the Capital Acquisitions Tax
4 legislation, appointed all of the
trusts assets to me."
5
6 That is your Irish business?
7 A. That is my Irish business.
8 378 Q. Yes .

10 Limited"?
11
12 A. Well, what I mean is I continued my business here.
13 379 Q. We had this out just five minutes ago and you
14 explained just try to think it out yourself without
15 trying to get assistance. Try to think it out
16 yourself. Did you not tell me a few minutes ago
17 that you got the business in 1991, it was all
18 appointed to you, and you used Ascot Holdings
19 Limited for the purposes of your Irish business? Is
20 that not true?
21 A. No, not for that purpose, never.
22 380 Q. You...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. Never.
24 381 Q. I see. Very well then. I took you up wrong. What
25 did you mean by:

27 Limited."
9 fi
Zo
29 This was your Cayman business? You did not
49
1 use Ascot Holdings for you Irish business, is "that
2 it?
3 A. Yes, I did. Sorry, I did because I had things
4 in Ireland that belonged to Ascot Holdings. I had
5 animals on the stud in Ireland that belonged
6 to Ascot Holdings, yes. So, that is where it
7 crossed.
8 382 Q. Yes?
9 A. I am sorry. It is rather complicated.
10 383 Q. No. I think you are making it complicated
11 Mrs. Jorgensen?
12 A. I am not meaning to.
13 384 Q. Then if it is not complicated would you tell me
14 then, in relation to Ascot Holdings Limited, what
15 did you mean by saying:
16
"I continued the business which
17 included trade with Ascot Holdings
Limited"?
18
19 A. I can't explain any more than I continued with Ascot
20 Holdings and the Cayman. That is what I mean. I
21 continued with my own business and I continued with
22 that.
23 385 Q. Move on to the next paragraph:
24 "I met Mr. Traynor from time to time

over the years and in 1993 mentioned to
25 him that I had purchased a property in
Dublin and was in the course of
26 constructing three apartments there. I
also said that I was doing substantial
27 work in Grangewilliam House, Maynooth,
Co. Kildare which I planned to live in.
28 Des Traynor said that he would arrange
with the Cayman trustees to make some
29 appointments from the trust to help
fund this work and payments were made
50
1 for this purpose over the next
few years."
2
3 Would you explain that to me?
4 A. Yes, that accounts -- that was the money, the
5 withdrawals, I had because I told you him I was
6 doing these things when I saw him that year and he
7 said, "Well, you can" -- that he would arrange for
8 me to be able to have some withdrawals, and that was
9 when the withdrawals started, and that accounts for
10 the list of withdrawals, Judge. I was doing up
11 these flats and that is what I spent the money on.
12 386 Q. Mrs. Jorgensen, in relation to the trust that was
13 established by your husband in the Cayman Islands
14 for you prior to his death, you have said
15 that Mr. Conor Crowley managed these matters for
16 you?
17 A. Sorry?
18 387 Q. Yes?
19 A. I do not want to interrupt.
20 388 Q. Yes?
21 A. He did not manage -- he had nothing to do with this.
22 389 Q. With the Cayman trust?
23 A. No.
24 390 Q. Okay. I see?
25 A. He never knew about that.
26 391 Q. He never knew?
27 A. No.
28 392 Q. You did not tell him?
29 A. No, he never knew about that. It was not something

1 -- he managed the Irish trusts.
2 393 Q. I see?
3 A. With me.
4 394 Q. With Mr. Liam McGonagle?
5 A. Yes.
6 395 Q. And John Byrne?
7 A. Yes.
8 396 Q. Yes. I am sorry I misunderstood?
9 A. Yes.
10 397 Q. The Cayman trust business was managed entirely by
11 Mr. Traynor?
12 A. Yes.
13 398 Q. After Mr. Traynor's death by Mr. Collery?
14 A. Yes, and trustees presumably.
15 399 Q. Will... (INTERJECTION) ?
16 A. Which...(INTERJECTION).
17 400 Q. This is where I just want to make clear what your
18 evidence is. You do not know who the trustee was,
19 do you?
20 A. I know there was trustees. He told me there
21 were trustees but I don't know -- I haven't seen
22 The Trust Deed, no.
23 401 Q. Did he tell you that the company was, the trustee
24 was, either -- the company's name may have been the
25 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company Limited. Did he
26 tell you that?
27 A. No.
28 402 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
29 A. He just told me it was a trust.
52
1 403 Q. Did he name -- did he tell you who the trustees
2 were?
3 A. No.
4 404 Q. That is all I wish to ask you at the moment
5 Mrs. Jorgensen. However, Ms. Mackey may have a few
6 questions to ask you.
7 END OF EXAMINATION OF MRS. SONIA ROGERS BY
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
53
1 MRS. SONIA ROGERS WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MS. MACKEY
4 405 Q. MS. MACKEY: I just wanted to ask you a
5 little bit, Mrs. Rogers,
6 about your meetings with Mr. Collery after
7 Mr. Traynor died. What was the first contact you
8 had with Mr. Collery and how did it come about?
9 A. I cannot remember that.
11 A. When it was or -- but he rung me at some stage and
12 told me that he was looking after things.
13 407 Q. He contacted you?
14 A. And not to worry, the same thing, not to worry.
15 408 Q. He contacted you, is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 409 Q. After Mr. Traynor's death were you not anxious to
18 ascertain what was going to become of the management
19 of your trust?
20 A. I hate to have to tell you but I wasn't, no, because
21 I was very busy with my own things and this was
22 something -- no, I didn't.
23 410 Q. Did you not need to make any withdrawals?
24 A. No.
25 411 Q. Immediately after Mr. Traynor's death?
26 A. No, no.
27 412 Q. Mr. Collery contacted you and told you not to worry?
28 A. Yes.
29 413 Q. He would look after it?
54
1 A. Yes.
2 414 Q. Did you then contact him subsequently in order to
3 conduct transactions on the account?
4 A. I never did any transactions on the account after
5 that.
6 415 Q. After — after when?
7 A. I think after -- I am just trying to think when
8 Mr. Traynor died. Did he die in...(INTERJECTION).
9 416 Q. He died in 1994?
10 A. 1994.
11 417 Q. Yes?
12 A. I wouldn't be 100% certain what I did after that but
13 I don't think there were hardly any transactions
14 since because it was wound down. I would have to
15 think about that.
16 418 Q. Yes. Okay. In relation to the winding down?
17 A. Yes.
18 419 Q. How did that come about?
19 A. Well, I just stopped trading.
20 420 Q. You stopped trading with Ascot Ventures?
21 A. Yes, because...(INTERJECTION).
22 421 Q. Is what you mean by that?
23 A. Yes, because of the, as I explained, situation of
24 changing.
25 422 Q. Yes?
26 A. My line of interest.
27 423 Q. Yes, from stallions to mares?
28 A. Yes.
29 424 Q. Yes. Did you continue to receive statements from
55
1 Mr. Collery?
2 A. He, I think, gave me one statement after.
3 425 Q. How did he do that? How did that statement come to
4 you?
5 A. He came and saw me and told me.
6 426 Q. He came to your house?
7 A. He came to my house once.
8 427 Q. How did that visit arise? Did he contact you first?
9 A. He contacted me.
10 428 Q. And said he wished to come to see you?
11 A. Yes.
12 429 Q. When was that Mrs. Rogers?
13 A. I would be hazarding a guess if I said when it was.
14 430 Q. But... (INTERJECTION)?
15 A. So, I am not going to guess. It was a year or so,
16 more than a year, ago.
17 431 Q. Ago?
18 A. Yes.
19 432 Q. Did he contact you by telephone?
20 A. Yes, I think so.
21 433 Q. What did he say to you on the phone when he
22 contacted you?
23 A. I think he said he would like to come and see me.
24 434 Q. Yes. Did he say why?
25 A. He lived quite near me.
26 435 Q. Yes. Did he say why he wanted to come to see you?
27 A. I can't remember.
29 A. But I am sure he probably did. I mean surely I
56
1 would have known, you know.
2 437 Q. Yes. He came any way?
3 A. He came.
4 438 Q. What did he say to you when he came?
5 A. He told me what the total was.
6 439 Q. Did he say, "I am coming to see you so as to tell
7 you what the total on your account is"?
8 A. No, I think he said he was coming to see me, could
9 he come and see me.
10 440 Q. However, when he arrived he said, "I am here to tell
11 you that your...(INTERJECTION)"?
12 A. Well, we had a cup of coffee I think.
13 441 Q. Yes. However, what I am trying to get from you
14 is...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Then he told me that everything was fine and that is
16 what my total was.
17 442 Q. Why could he not have told you that on the phone?
18 A. I don't know but he probably didn't think
19 he...(INTERJECTION).
20 443 Q. Did he bring documents?
21 A. It was the sort of thing he would say.
22 444 Q. Did he bring documents Mrs. Rogers?
23 A. No, nothing.
24 445 Q. He brought nothing at all?
25 A. No, documents, no.
26 446 Q. He produced this figure out of his head?
27 A. Yes.
28 447 Q. He had nothing written on a piece of paper?
29 A. I don't think so, no, but once again I don't want to
57
1 lie about this. I would have to ask Kay Mason, who
2 was with me at the time, but I don't think he
3 did, no. I think he just told me.
4 448 Q. Ms. Mason was present at this meeting, was she?
5 A. Yes, she was.
6 449 Q. He told you that the balance on your account was
7 then what figure?
8 A. It was £2 million.
9 450 Q. £2 million?
10 A. Yes.
11 451 Q. Did he ask you what you wanted to do about that?
12 A. I think he possibly did say, "What do you want to
13 do," but I just left it.
14 452 Q. Yes?
15 A. I just said, "I will continue and leave it with
16 you".
17 453 Q. Did you?
18 A. Yes.
19 454 Q. Did he say what the situation would be from then on
20 in relation to that account if you wished to
21 withdraw money?
22 A. I didn't ask him.
23 455 Q. Did he say?
24 A. No.
25 456 Q. He did not?
26 A. No. I didn't want to withdraw money.
27 457 Q. I know that. However, you might have wanted to in
28 the future perhaps?
29 A. Yes.
58
1 458 Q. Did he indicate that there might be any problem
2 about further withdrawals?
3 A. No, he didn't indicate any problem but I have to say
4 I didn't indicate much interest.
5 459 Q. Why was that?
6 A. Because I didn't want to, you know. I didn't want
7 to withdraw anything at the time. So, I didn't ask
8 him.
9 460 Q. Yes?
10 A. When I did my withdrawals my business at that time
11 wasn't going quite so well.
12 461 Q. Yes?
13 A. And it was getting better now and I
14 didn't...(INTERJECTION).
15 462 Q. Could I ask you to look again, Mrs. Rogers, at a
16 document which we have already shown you, which was
17 -- I think you possibly still have it. It is the
18 final one of those statements from Hamilton Ross.
19 We see there the figure of £2 million (Exhibit 6)?
20 A. Yes.
21 463 Q. That you said Mr. Collery had told you represented
22 the balance of your account?
23 A. Yes.
24 464 Q. You see the date of that transaction. It is
25 the 14th February 1997?
26 A. Yes.
27 465 Q. It indicates that that £2 million was drawn?
28 A. Yes, it does. Yes, I agree with that.
29 466 Q. Can you tell us anything about that?
59
1 A. No, I didn't draw it I can tell you.
2 467 Q. You did not draw it?
3 A. No, I didn't, I promise you.
5 A. It is, you know, it is, no. I don't know about what
6 that means.
7 4 69 Q. Do you think that might have been roughly the date
8 that Mr. Collery came to see you, 1997?
9 A. I would like to check again may be...(INTERJECTION).
10 470 Q. With Ms. Mason?
11 A. Yes, she may have an idea.
12 471 Q. You can check this with Ms. Mason?
13 A. Yes.
14 472 Q. Can you?
15 A. Yes.
16 473 Q. It may be that we would talk to Ms. Mason ourselves
17 any way. Did Mr. Collery indicate to you that the
18 money was being moved from the Cayman Islands?
19 A. No.
21 A. No.
22 475 Q. Did he say to you it still was in the Cayman Islands
23 at that stage?
24 A. Yes. Well, he didn't say otherwise and I -- no, he
25 didn't indicate it. He definitely didn't indicate
26 it was being moved.
27 476 Q. Your evidence about this, did you see Mr. Collery
28 subsequent to that or have any contact with him?
29 A. Have I seen him since? Have I seen him? Yes, I
60
1 have seen him once since.
2 477 Q. Have you?
3 A. Yes.
5 A. About six months ago.
6 479 Q. Can you tell me about that meeting?
7 A. Well, he...(INTERJECTION).
8 480 Q. How did that arise?
9 A. I think he just told me that everything was all
10 right.
11 481 Q. Sorry, no. How did the meeting arise? Did you
12 contact Mr. Collery?
13 A. No, I didn't contact him.
14 482 Q. Did he contact you?
15 A. He must have rung me, yes.
16 483 Q. He must have rung you?
17 A. Yes.
18 484 Q. Did he ring you?
19 A. Yes, he did ring.
20 485 Q. He rang you?
21 A. Yes.
22 486 Q. What did he say to you on the telephone?
23 A. That he would come and see me.
24 487 Q. That he would come and see you?
25 A. Yes, if I wanted, but everything was all right.
26 488 Q. He would come and see you if you wanted?
27 A. Yes.
28 489 Q. But that everything was all right?
29 A. Yes.
61
1 490 Q. Why did he think that he needed to reassure you of
2 that?
3 A. Well, I mean I suppose it was because of everything
4 that was happening in the newspapers, you know.
5 491 Q. I see?
6 A. I would...(INTERJECTION).
7 492 Q. Yes?
8 A. You know.
9 4 93 Q. That you might have been worried?
10 A. Yes.
11 494 Q. Did you say you would like him to come to see you?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 495 Q. However, he came?
14 A. Yes.
15 4 96 Q. He came even though you did not want him to?
16 A. I didn't say -- he came but I didn't say I didn't
17 want him to come but he reassured me that everything
18 was all right.
19 497 Q. I am sorry. This is not very clear. You say he
20 rang you?
21 A. Yes.
22 498 Q. And he said he would come to see you if you wanted?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 499 Q. You presumably said, "Well, yes, do."
25 A. Yes.
26 500 Q. "I will not stop you"?
27 A. I wouldn't be rude to him.
28 501 Q. Yes. So he came to you?
29 A. Yes.
62
1 502 Q. When he came what happened?
2 A. He told me that everything was all right.
3 503 Q. Right. Just that?
4 A. Yes.
5 504 Q. And nothing else?
6 A. No.
7 505 Q. He could have said that, of course, on the phone?
8 A. Yes.
9 506 Q. When he came then, did he bring any documents on
10 this occasion?
11 A. No.
12 507 Q. You are quite sure of that?
13 A. Yes.
14 508 Q. He did not bring a statement of your account?
15 A. (INDICATING).
16 509 Q. No. Are you saying no he did not?
17 A. No, he didn't.
19 A. No.
20 511 Q. Did he tell you anything more about it on that
21 occasion?
22 A. No, he just told me everything was all right and not
23 to worry about anything.
24 512 Q. What did you ask him about it on that occasion?
25 A. I didn't ask him anything.
26 513 Q. Nothing at all?
27 A. I just asked him if everything was all right.
28 514 Q. What did you mean by that?
29 A. Well, the sort of — what...(INTERJECTION).
63
1 515 Q. What might not have been all right?
2 A. Yes.
3 516 Q. What might not have been all right?
4 A. I don't know. It is a sort of natural reaction I
5 suppose under the circumstances to say was
6 everything all right.
7 517 Q. Did you mean was the money still there?
8 A. Yes, I suppose so.
9 518 Q. And he said it was?
10 A. Yes.
11 519 Q. Yes. Did he say where it was?
12 A. No, I presumed it was...(INTERJECTION).
13 520 Q. Right. That was about six months ago?
14 A. Yes.
15 521 Q. Have you been in touch with him since?
16 A. No.
17 522 Q. Not at all?
18 A. No.
19 523 Q. In relation to the lodgements that you made from
20 time to time to the trust, to the account?
21 A. Yes.
22 524 Q. Both before Mr. Traynor's death and -- did you make
23 any since his death?
24 A. I don't know. I can't remember.
25 525 Q. Well, you...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. I would have to look.
27 526 Q. Yes?
28 A. I probably did, you know.
29 527 Q. Yes?
64
1 A. But I must have done an odd one because it didn't
2 close until -- I must have done an odd one since his
3 death, since 1994, yes.
4 528 Q. How would you have done that?
5 A. I would have done it through Padraig presumably.
6 529 Q. You would have contacted him?
7 A. Ms. Mason would have done it again.
9 A. Through him.
10 531 Q. How would you have contacted Mr. Collery to do that?
11 A. If there was anything it went through Roadstone,
12 through the office there.
13 532 Q. Through Joan Williams, was it?
14 A. Well, that is up until...(INTERJECTION).
15 533 Q. The secretary of Mr. Traynor?
16 A. Up until it finished, yes.
17 534 Q. In relation to these lodgements, I think the Judge
18 asked you there earlier if you had paid tax on the
19 interest that accrued to the account, were the
20 lodgements that you made, money that had been
21 declared to tax?
22 A. Yes, it had all been. It was either tax free or it
23 had all been taxed.
24 535 Q. Right. When you say "tax free" this would be in
25 relation to the stallions?
26 A. The stallions, yes .
27 536 Q. Yes. What do you propose to do about your trust
28 now Mrs. Rogers?
29 A. I have absolutely no idea.
65
1 537 Q. The money is just there?
2 A. To be truthful with you I wish it never existed.
3 538 Q. Pardon? Pardon?
4 A. I said to be truthful with you I wish it never
5 existed.
6 539 Q. Yes. Very good. I don't think I have any further
7 questions.
8 A. Thank you.
9 540 Q. Thank you very much.
10 END OF EXAMINATION OF MRS. SONIA ROGERS BY
11 MS. MACKEY
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
66
1 MRS. SONIA ROGERS WAS EXAMINED AGAIN, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 541 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just before that
5 Mrs. Rogers, I just want
6 to understand your evidence. According to this
7 statement you were entitled to £2 million in 1997?
8 A. Yes.
9 542 Q. Do you know where that is today?
10 A. Do I know where it is?
11 543 Q. Yes?
12 A. Well, its presumably...(INTERJECTION).
13 544 Q. Do you know where it is? The answer is yes or no?
14 A. Yes.
15 545 Q. You know where it is?
16 A. No, not definitely, no.
17 546 Q. Indefinitely, do you know where it is?
18 A. Yes.
19 547 Q. Where is it?
20 A. In the Cayman.
21 548 Q. In the Cayman?
22 A. Yes.
23 549 Q. Your money is in the Cayman, this fund?
24 A. Yes.
25 550 Q. When it says there that it was withdrawn, did you
26 know it is was withdrawn?
27 A. No.
28 551 Q. The £2 million was withdrawn?
29 A. No.
67
1 552 Q. When you say it is in the Cayman, do you know
2 the Institution in the Cayman in which it is?
3 A. No.
4 553 Q. You do not?
5 A. I thought Guinness Mahon.
6 554 Q. Sorry?
7 A. I thought Guinness Mahon Cayman.
8 555 Q. No. However, it is not a question of what you
9 think. If you wanted the £2 million how would you
10 get it? If you wanted it tomorrow how would you get
11 it?
12 A. I suppose I would contact Padraig.
13 556 Q. You would contact Padraig. He is looking after it
14 for you?
15 A. I presume he is.
16 557 Q. Yes. Very well then. If we wanted to
17 contact Ms. Mason?
18 A. Yes.
19 558 Q. Can we find her at your address?
20 A. Yes, you can, Judge.
21 559 Q. What I want you to get for us is all the documents
22 that you have in your possession, either at home or
23 wherever they are, in relation to your Cayman
24 business and in relation to the Cayman trust that
25 you have. All the documents that you have in
26 relation to it. Where are those documents?
27 A. I don't have any.
28 560 Q. You are going to have to look then with your
29 solicitor or with your accountant, is that the
68
1 position?
2 A. Yes, Judge.
3 561 Q. Yes. I see. Very well then. We will require you
4 to produce for us all the documents in your power or
5 possession in relation to the Cayman Trust, in
6 relation to the business that was carried on with
7 the Cayman companies. We may have to consider
8 another interview but in the light of documents we
9 asked for me we will consider the position. Thank
10 you?
11 A. Thank you.
12
13 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
69
kvx^V^t
Appendix XV (113) (1) (b)
STATEMENT OF SONIA ROGERS
My husband Tim Rogers died on 1 January 1984 and some time after his death Des
Traynor told me that my husband had shortly before he died established a
discretionary trust abroad for my benefit. My husband suffered from leukaemia and I
know that he had been reorganising his affairs before he died. When Des Traynor
spoke to me 1 was aware that my husband had established a discretionary trust in
Ireland in his Will and had also established two separate trusts of different lands all
for the benefit of my children and myself. I do not recall if Des Traynor advised me
that the trust was established in the Cayman Islands but he did indicate that it was a
discretionary trust. I do not recall if it was at this meeting or at a subsequent meeting
that Des Traynor advised me that the trust was involved in bloodstock.
Tim Rogers was an internationally known bloodstock breeder and a substantial part of
his income was derived from the sale of nominations and stallion shares.
Over the years the trust traded in bloodstock through a company called Ascot
Holdings Limited and subsequently Ascot Ventures limited. Most of the horses
purchased by this company were held at our studs in Ireland and this arrangements
was on an arm's length basis and keep fees were charged to this company.
In 1991 the trustees of a discretionary trust, established on my late husband's death

following a change in the Capital Acquisitions Tax legislation, appointed all of the
trusts assets to me. I continued the business which included trade with Ascot
Holdings Limited.
I met Des Traynor from time to time over the years and in 1993 mentioned to him that
I had purchased a property in Dublin and was in the course of constructing three
apartments there. I also said that I was doing substantial work in Grangewilliam
House, Maynooth, Co. Kildare which I planned to live. Des Traynor said that he
would arrange with the Cayman trustees to make some appointmentsfrom the trust to
help fUnd this work and payments were made for this purpose over the next few years.
The bloodstock interests of the trust have been wouncfjover the years. At this stage
the trust fund has not been appointed.
24 March 2000
Sonia Rogers.
Appendix XV (114) Mr John Savoy
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
John Savoy.
a) Credit guarantee between GMCT and Southeastern Commodities

Company Inc.
b) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 21 March 1984.
c) Internal Guinness and Mahon file note of 12 December 1984.
d) Print-out of a/c statement of 7 December 1984 re Southeastern

Commodites Limited.
e) Letter of 27 August 1984 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
f) Letter of 30 April 1984 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
g) Letter of 26 March 1984 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
h) Letter of 15 March 1984 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
i) Undated letter - Mr John Savoy to GMCT.

Guarantee
By Individual(s), Partnership or Companies)
To Maaau Baku 6iym> Tint ( M M (hereinafter called "the Bank"

which expression shall include and extend to their successors and
assigns)
UMtertaUag 1. IN CONSIDERATION of the Bank making or continuing advances

Where the giving time for payment or otherwise granting credit or affording
.Customer is in
'^Partnership banking facilities to . V 7 . . . Qirr.*3>.'7?As
enter names of
Partners of . i^QntMy.... /rf/v
trade name
(if any)
(hereinafter called "the
Where the Customer")

Guarantor is
in partnership . SfiYftY.
enter trade name
(hereinafter called "the

Guarantor") HEREBY UNDERTAKES upon demand by the Bank to
pay and satisfy to the Bank all moneys which are now or shall at any
time hereafter be due or owing to the Bank on any account and in
' / any manner whatsoever by the Customer whether as principal or
surety and whether solely or jointly with any other person or
persons and to discharge on demand all other liabilities certain or
contingent incurred by the Customer or for which he may be liable
to the Bank in respect of acceptance or documentary credits
discount facilities currency and any other transactions howsoever
and all liabilities by way of guarantee or indemnity undertaken to
the Bank by the Customer together in all cases with interest (as well
after as before judgement) charges commissions expenses legal
costs and charges pertaining to or occasioned by this or any other
security the Bank may hold for the aforesaid moneys and liabilities.
PROVIDED ALWAYS that the total amount recoverable from the

Guarantor hereunder shall not exceed the sum of
P. .9.5? 5?.
in addition to
(0 such further sum for interest on that amount or on such less
sum as may be due or owing tend also all Bank charges in
respect thereof) as shall have accrued due or shall accrue due
to the Bank within six months before and at any time after
either the date of demand by the Bank upon the Guarantor for
payment or the date of the determination of this Guarantee
pursuant to any notice of determination as hereinafter
provided and
(ii) all costs and expenses recoverable from the Customer and all
costs and expenses (on a full indemnity basis) arising out of or
in connection with the recovery by the Bank of the moneys due
to the Bank under this Guarantee which the Guarantor hereby
agrees to pay.
latenst 2. Interest accruing due to the Bank under (i) above after the date of
This rate of demand or determination of this Guarantee as herein mentioned
interest is
only applicable shall be calculated a t . .Ut<4. . .
when the terms
of the facility .. 9.Q. .^Jt •. .. tetyfizk. . sfi.. WffYfTitTi
are not maintained
...*)j...\?J\.Jt.Ai
The certificate of an officer of the Bank as to the amount of the said
moneys and liabilities shall be conclusive for all purposes.
Continning This Guarantee shall be construed and take effect as a Guarantee

Security 3. of the whole of the said moneys and liabilities and until they shall
have been paid discharged and satisfied (and they shall be deemed
to be due and owing notwithstanding the bankruptcy insolvency or
liquidation of the Customer) the Guarantor agrees that the
Guarantor shall not take steps to enforce any right or claim against
the Customer in respect of any moneys paid by the Guarantor to the
Bank hereunder and shall have no right of proof in such bankruptcy
insolvency or liquidation in competition with the Bank
notwithstanding any payment of the whole or part of the sum for
which the Guarantor may be liable nor any other right of a surety
discharging his liability AND If this security shall from any cause
whatsoever cease to be binding upon the Guarantor or the
Guarantor's legal personal representatives as hereinafter provided
the Bank may without prejudice to its rights hereunder open a fresh
account or accounts and continue any existing account in the name
of the Customer and may appropriate to any such fresh account any
moneys thereafter paid in received or realised for the credit of the
Customer without being under any obligation to apply the said
moneys or any part of them in discharge of any indebtedness or
liability of the Customer to the Bankand if the Bank shall fail to open
such a fresh account it shall be deemed to have done so with the
effect that the said moneys shall not operate to reduce the said
indebtedness or liability at the time this Guarantee so ceases to be
binding as a continuing security.
This Guarantee shall be binding upon the Guarantor and the

executors administrators or other legal personal representatives of
the Guarantor as a continuing security until the expiration of three
calendar months from the time of receipt by the Bank of notice
given in writing by the Guarantor or the Guarantor's said
representatives or any of them to determine the same and shall not
be considered as satisfied by any intermediate payment of the
whole or any part of the moneys due or owing to the Bank by the
Customer but shall extend to cover all such moneys as shall be due
or owing or accruing due or owing at the time at which such
determination shall take effect and shall further extend to cover any
cheques, orders for payment, drafts, bills, notes or other negotiable
instruments drawn, made endorsed or accepted by or for the
account of the Customer on the Bank and purporting to be dated
before the expiration of such notice although not paid or honoured
by the Bank until after such expiration.
Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions regarding termination of
this Guarantee by the Guarantor giving to the Bank three months
written notice, in the case of an advance to the Customer being
repayable at a fixed date no such notice shall take effect until the
day next succeeding the date upon which all the moneys and
liabilities hereby secured should have been fully paid, discharged
and satisfied by the Customer in accordance with the terms of this
Agreement with the Bank.
No assurance security or payment which may be avoided under any

enactment relating to bankruptcy or under the provisions of any
other statute affecting the Customer or his affairs and no release
settlement or discharge given or made by the Bank on the faith of
any such assurance security or payment shall prejudice or affect its
rights to recover from the Guarantor to the full extent of this_
* •
Guarantee including any moneys which the bank may be compelled

by due process of law to refund to the Customer in liquidation or a
liquidator pursuant to any such enactment or statute and any costs
payable by the Bank pursuant to or otherwise incurred in
connection with such process. In the event of the death bankruptcy
or liquidation of the Customer the Guarantor's liability hereunder
shall extend to all sums which would at any time have been owing to
/""V the Bank by the Customer if such death had occurred or such
( y bankruptcy or liquidation had commenced respectively at the time
when the Bank receives actual notice thereof and notwithstanding
such death bankruptcy or liquidation.
Set Off 8. This Guarantee shall be in addition to and not be prejudiced by any
other Guarantee or security now or hereafter held by the Bank for
all or any part of the moneys and liabilities hereby secured nor shall
any other such security or the liability of any person not a party
hereto be in any way prejudiced by this present security AND so
long as any moneys are due or owing hereunder the Bank shall
have an immediate right of set off in respect of all moneys standing
to the credit of the Guarantor with the Bank on any account
whatever and a lien over any securities or other property of the
Guarantor held by the Bank whether for safe custody or otherwise.
Deductions 7. To the extent that any payment made by the Guarantor hereunder
may be subject to taxes, duties, levies, imports or charges imposed
in respect of such payment to any authority of the Cayman Islands
or other country state or other political division by means of
deduction at source, the Guarantor will in such event pay to the
Bank such additional amount as may be necessary to ensure that
the Bank receives the full amount due to it in accordance with the
foregoing provisions of this Guarantee.
Security 8. The Guarantor has not taken and will not take from the Customer
any security whether personal or forming a charge on property of
the Customer for the moneys and liabilities hereby secured such as
might on the bankruptcy insolvency or liquidation of the Customer
result in any diminution in or prejudice to the security herein and
the Guarantor UNDERTAKES that any such security now or
hereafter held by the Guarantor shall be held in trust for the Bank
and for its benefit in respect of the obligations of the Guarantor
hereunder.
Discretion WITHOUT PREJUDICE to this security the Bank may without the
of Bank knowledge or consent of the Guarantor determine reduce or
increase any credit or facility or compound with grant time or other
indulgence to or renew any bills of exchange or notes for the
Customer or to or for any other person whatsoever or deal with
exchange release modify or abstain from perfecting or enforcing
any security or other Guarantee or right which the Bank now has or
may hereafter have against the Customer or any such other person.
Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the Bank shall
be at liberty but not bound to resort for its own benefit to any other
means of payment at any time and in any order the Bank may think
fit without thereby diminishing the liability of the Guarantor and the
Bank may enforce this guarantee either for the payment of the
ultimate balance after resorting to other means of payment or for
the balance due at any time notwithstanding that other means of
payment have not been resorted to and in the latter case without
entitling the Guarantor to any benefit from such other means of
payment so long as any monies remain due from the Customer to
the Bank.
Assignment 10. The Bank may at its absolute discretion without the consent of the
Guarantor and without notice to the Guarantor ASSIGN the debt
and liabilities hereby secured and the rights and benefits embodied
r-v'""-)
in this Guarantee together with any securities of the Guarantor held
by the Bank in support thereof or otherwise to any person or
persons firm committee association or other unincorporated body
or to any limited company or corporation whatsoever and the
Guarantor agrees that the Guarantor and the executors
administrators or other legal personal representatives of the
Guarantor shall be bound to any such assignee in like manner and
to the like extent as the Guarantor is bound to the Bank hereunder.
Suspense The Bank is to be at liberty without prejudice to any other rights it

Account 11. might have at any time and from time to time to place and keep for
such time as the Bank may think prudent any moneys received
recovered or realised under or by virtue of this Guarantee to or in a
separate or suspense account as the Bank shall think fit without
any intermediate obligation on the Bank's part to apply the same or
any part thereof in or towards the discharge of the moneys due or
owing to the Bank by the Customer.
Notices 12. ANY DEMAND made or notice given hereunder shall be in writing ~
• #
and shall be deemed to have properly made or given if sent by

prepaid letter post to the last address of the Guarantor known to the
Bank and shall be deemed to have reached the Guarantor in the
normal course of post notwithstanding that 'the same be returned
undelivered and notwithstanding the death of the Guarantor.
Liability 13. Where the Customer is in joint account this Guarantee shall be
effective and enforceable against the Guarantor notwithstanding
r^- the death of one or more of the joint account holders and when the
Customer is a firm committee association or other unincorporated,
body or a limited company or corporation this Guarantee shall be
construed and take effect as a Guarantee of all moneys due or
owing by such firm and every member thereof or by such
association committee or other unincorporated body and in such
case and in the case of a limited company or corporation in spite of
any defect irregularity or insufficiency in the borrowing or in the
capacity or borrowing powers of the Customer or in the exercise
thereof such moneys shall be recoverable from the Guarantor as if
the Guarantor was the principal debtor AND FURTHER this
Guarantee shall in the case of a firm be a Guarantee of all moneys
due or owing on any account of all persons carrying on the business
of the said firm notwithstanding any change in its constitution AND
in the case of a limited company the liability of the company and the
security herein shall continue notwithstanding any absorption
amalgamation or other change in the constitution of the company
^ AND FURTHER this Guarantee shall be a security for all moneys
due or owing in respect of debentures or debenture stock of the
said company or other corporation of which debentures or
debenture stock the Bank is a holder AND such of the provisions
hereinbefore contained as shall be primarily and literally applicable
to a single individual Customer shall be construed and take effect in
respect of moneys and liabilities owing or due by such limited
company as identical with or analogous to that construction and
effect which they would have in the case of a single individual
customer and lastly where the Customer is an infant or a person
otherwise legally incapable of contracting or where for whatsoever
reason the principal debt shall be unenforceable the undertaking of
the Guarantor herein shall be construed take effect and embody
the full indemnity of the Guarantor as a direct or primary security.
Where the Guarantee is executed by more than one person the
Agreements and obligations on the part of the Guarantor herein
contained shall take effect as joint and several Agreements and
obligations and all references to the Guarantor shall take effect as
references to the said persons or any of them and none of them
shall be released from liability hereunder by reason of the
Guarantee ceasing for any reason to be binding'as a continuing
security on any other or others of them and where the Guarantor is a
limited company or corporation this Guarantee shall take effect and
be binding on the said company or corporation notwithstanding
any absorption amalgamation or other change in its constitution.
^ jahrer 14. So far as may be necessary to give effect to the provisions of this
Guarantee, the Guarantor waives in favour of the Bank all rights
which but for this waiver the Guarantor might exercise or enforce
against the Bank or the Customer.
Admissions Mi Any statement or acknowledgement in writing by the Customer or

Statenents of any person acting on behalf of the Customer of the amount of the
Account 15. indebtedness of the Customer to the Bank or otherwise in relation
to the subject matter of this Guarantee or any judgment or award
obtained by the Bank against the Customer or proof by the Bank in
insolvency, bankruptcy or liquidation of companies which is
admitted or any statement of account furnished by the Bank the
correctness of which is certified by any director or officer or
manager of the Bank shall be binding and conclusive on the
Guarantor.
iorlsillction 18. The Guarantor agrees that in the event of the Bank taking
proceedings hereunder the Bank may in its absolute discretion
bring them in the Courts of the Cayman Islands or any other country
which it may deem suitable and for the purposes of those
proceedings the Guarantor hereby sumits to the jurisdiction of the
chosen courts and agrees that any writ notice judgement or other
legal process or document relating to such proceedings may be
served on the Guarantor by delivery to or service on him or his agent
in the Cayman Islands being
of
or elsewhere as the case may be. This Guarantee shall be

construed and take effect according to the law of the Cayman
Islands in force at the time any such proceedings are begun.
+
Definitions 17. In this Guarantee where the context so admits words denoting the
singular number only shall include the plural number also and vice
versa. Words denoting the masculine gender only shall include the
feminine gender also and words denoting persons only shall
include companies and this Guarantee shall be construed and take
effect accordingly.
Marginal The Marginal notes are for the purposes of reference only and shall
r^ Botes 18. not in any manner affect or restrict the interpretation of this
.i Guarantee.
This Guarantee is and will remain the property of the Bank.
SIGNED, SEALED & DELIVERED

by the said
in the Presence of:—
SIGNED, SEALED & DELIVERED

by the said
in the Presence of:—
H I TOTTOmeer
NAME OF APPLICANT: ^dfivtt^. (2 - S U c*-y> .
fcSi- SUi't'c C/.Z%C /JZ* WcM^xtt?
desac^M 33 <?£(?.
amount : & y <2 . et> e
PURPOSE: ^ a W c y ? Co^hMP
TERM: ^ M ^
SOURCE OF REPAYMENTS: ^ ^
^ ©
RATE: f o i ^ ^ v / /
COMMITMENT FEE:
DRAWDOWN: ^ ^tSs /fcc
SECURITY: A " — e * j U-Q-tl CU -jbâcjfc
REVIEW DATEs^-ÂZ^
COMMENTS FOR
INCORPORATION IN DECISION MEMO.
(Continued Overleaf):
2UI
Appendix XV (114) (l)(c)
FILE NOTE
South Eastern Commodities Co. Incorp. U.S.S242.000.00
On the instructions of Mike Shields of Guinness Mahon Cayman

Trust the above loan account and deposit accouttt were closed off value '
15th December, 1984 The balance outstanding on the loan of U.S.$255,256.22
was repaid by transfer from the backing deposit of U.S.$254,476.44 plus a
remittance of the residue of ,U.S.$779.78 to Manufacturers Hanover Trust,
New York. A breakdown of the above figures:are as follows:-
O
Deposit Loan
Balance U.S.S242,000.00 Balance .................... U.S.$242,000.00
U.S.$ 9,895.11 Interest to 20.11.84 .... U.S.$ 10.513.55
Interest to 20.U.84 U.S.$(251,895.11
U.S. $2 U.S. $252,513.55
Interest to 15.12:84 US.$ 2.581.33 Interest to 15.12.84 ... U.S.$ 2,742.67
U.S.$254,476.44 . U.S.$255,256.22
JD/SC
12th December, 1984.
Appendix XV (114) (l)(d)
\ n
Account Statement 11/12/84 16:31:42

5'Account: 7263015 USD SOUTHEASTERN COMMOD EXTERNAL OFFSET LOAN
.Value
1 Narrative Post Amount Balance
** START BALANCE 242,OOO.OODR
04SEP84 INTEREST 10,285.00DR
i LODGED 10.285.00CR 242,000.00DR
^JDEC84 INTEREST TO 201184 10,513.55DR
W INT TO 141284 2,742.67DR
LODGED VALUE 151284 254.476.44CR
LODGED VALUE 151284 779.78CR 0.00
id Account Statement 16:34:17

Aacount: 7510004 USD GUINNESS MAHQN CAYMA EXTERNAL
RE SOUTH EASTERN COMMODITIES
pValue Narrative Post Amount Ba lance
' _ ** START BALANCE 242.000.00CR
04SEP84 INTEREST 9.680.00CR
DRAWN 9,680.00DR 242, OOO.OOCR
2 7 07DEC84 INTEREST TO 301184 9,895.1ICR
INT TO 141284 2.5B1.33CR
DRAWN VALUE 151284 254,476.44DR 0.00
}••
2G
71
Appendix XV (114) (l)(e)
• #
*"GtflNNE5S MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Member of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group P 0 Box 887
Telephone No 9-4653 4 Grand Cayman
Telex CP 305 British West Indies
Cable Address Guinness
your ref
ourref JRF/fdef 27th August 1984.
Pat O'Dwyer Esq.

Guinness & Mahon Ltd.
17 College Green,
Dublin 2.
IRELAND
Dear Mr. O'Dwyer,

Re: South Eastern Commodities Co. Inc.
I enclose cheque for US$10,285.00, endorsed in favour of Guinness
& Mahon Ltd. This represents the interest due as at 20th August
on the note for $242,000.
Would you please pay the interest on our deposit, as before,
under advice to Mike Shield. The interest should be credited to
our US? 7-day notice account at G. M. London.
Yours sincerely,
^fr
/1 .t r
John R. Fletcher.
Enc.
Appendix XV (114) (l)(f)
# •
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A M e m b e r of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Bonking Group
Telephone No (809 94) 9 4653 4 P 0 Box 887
Telex 10293) CP430S Grand Cayman
Cable Address Guinness British West Indies
April 30, 1984

your ref '
our ref JAF/mb
Pat O'Dwyer, Esq.

•) Guinness & Mahon Ltd.
17 College Green
Dublin 2
IRELAND
Dear Pats
Res SOUTHEASTERN COMMODITIES CO. INC.
I have pleasure in enclosing herewith the personal guarantee form duly
signed by John Savoy.
I should be grateful if you would kindly acknowledge safe receipt in due
course.
Yours sincerely,
Ends
Appendix XV (114) (l)(g)
/fed A' •
cfJdL .
Our Ref: PO'D/ML 26th March, 1984.
Mr. John A. FurzeJ

Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.,
P.O. Box 887
Grand Cayman,
British West Indies
Der John,
Thank you for your letter of the 15th Inst*, setting out the position
In relation to the new deposit of US$ 242,000 in our bodes In the name of
G.M.C.T. and the loan of equal amount to Southeastern Commodities IBs!
Incw, Both entries have bene value dated 20th February, 1984.
As requested I have pleasure In enclosing a guarantee for completion
and return In due course. On receipt of same I will arrange to cancel the
G.M.C.T, guarantee.
Kindest Regards
Yours sincerely,
for GUINNESS + MAHON LIMITED.
Pat O'Dwyer,
Banking Manager.
Appendix XV (114) (l)(!i)
/ '* C7 f V

A M i m b t i of the Guinnaaa Mahon Merchant Banking Group
P 0 Box 887
Telephone No 1809 94} 9 4653 4
Grand Cayman
Tela* (02931 CP 4305
British West Indies
Cable Address Guinness
March 15, 1984

your ref
our ref
JAF/mb
Pat O'Dwyer, Esq.

Guinness & Mahon Ltd,
17 College Green
Dublin 2
IRELAND
Dear Pats
In our books we have established the following:-
a) Deposit of US$242,000 from Cool Breeze Investment /
Corporation (a Cayman company under our management) i
value 20th February 1984 maturing 20th February 1994 '
at 15% p.a. (interest to be paid quarterly on receipt
of loan interest - see below)
b) Deposit of US$242,000 by G.M.C.T. with yourselves
at 16% p.a. on identical terms as the above.
Would you kindly record a deposit from us per (b) above
and a loan at 17% p.a. to a Florida Corporation, Southeastern
Commodities Company, Inc. of Pompano Beach, Florida.
Enclosed is the original documentation in support of the
loan which perhaps you would keep in safe custody - I have
retained copies here. However, since the guarantee executed
is a G.M.C.T. guarantee, perhaps you would let me have
a G & M one for completion and eventual substitution for
the form enclosed.
We propose to collect the interest quarterly on your behalf
and will be sending you a cheque from which you can then
pay interest on the deposit and we similarly can pay our
client.
/2
T
Perhaps you would let me know whether the foregoing presents
any problems.
Best wishes,
Yours sincerely,
Encl:
Appendix XV (114) (1) (i)
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.
PO Box 887
Grand Cayman, BWI
Dear Sirs:
In my capacity as sole beneficial, owner of' the equity of COOL BREEZE
INVESTMENT CORPORATION LIMITED, I hereby confirm that you may hypothecate
US$242,000 of the funds presently standing on deposit in the name
of that corporation, to secure lending of a like amount by SOUTHEASTERN
COMMODITIES COMPANY INC. from Guinness & Mahon Limited, of 17 College
Green, Dublin 2, Ireland.
I understand that interest will be payable by you on the aforesaid
deposit at a rate of interest calculated at two percent per annum
less than the interest rate applied to the foregoing loan, and that
such deposit interest will only be paid by you upon receipt by Guinness
& Mahon Limited of the loan Interest due from Southeastern Commodities
Company Inc.
Withdrawals from the aforementioned deposit can only be effected pro
tanto to capital loan repayments made to Guinness & Mahon Ltd. Dublin
by Southeastern Commodities ComDanv. Inc.
JOHN SAVOY
Witness
Address: 1080 S.W. 12th Avenue, Pompano Beach, F l a . 33069
Occupation: Manager
Appendix XV (115) Schwartz Management Company
Schwartz Management Company.
a) Letter of 22 June 1983 - Central Bank of Ireland to Guinness and

Mahon.
b) Deposit Agreement between GMCT and GMCT as trustee of

Schwartz Trust.
c) Letter of 26 August 1982 - Mr Ben Schwartz to Guinness and

Mahon.
d) Internal Guinness and Mahon review meeting memo of 30 January

1984.
AfPDOIX XVI
,/A
e y
22 June 1983
Strictly Confidential
Mr. O.H. 6u1nness

Chalnaan
Guinness t Kahon L1«1ted
17 College firoen
DUBLIN 2
Bear Mr. Guinness

I refer to the latest Inspectionfay Central Bank exuritwrs of
tho books and records of 6u1nntts 1 Hahon plaited and wish to
convoy the Bank's appreciation of the co-optratlon received
during tho course of tho examination. Hhlle tho outeoM of tho
cxaalnation was generally satisfactory* fht Bank wishes to aake
tho following observations:-
Capital Adequacy
Wo art glad to note that tho capital shortfall In your bank
relative to our prescribed Klnlaun free resources ratio of
10 per cont. has now boon rectified as a result of tho laprovoMnt
In profits and tho sale of shares and that tho proposed
Introduction of £1.25 Billion Starling subordinated loan stock
In the near future will further strengthen tho capital position.
laroo loans
Tho loan of US$10.3 Ml Hon to tho Schwartz HanagMent Coapany has
caused tho ratios for tho la gost loan and ten largest loans to
exceed tho respective awxfaa of 5 por cent, and 30 por cant, of
risk assets. Notwithstanding tho fact that tho loan In question
1s socurcd by a Matching deposit, tho Bank will wish to keep such
loans and their lapact on tho ratlo&under regular review.
lens Adrtnlstra tlon
In recent meetings with the managenant of your tank the stiff of
our Supervision Department have Indicated that they Mould with
to $•• certain Improvements In tho loans administration area. While
wo understand that sow progress has been nade 1n this aroa In
recant months, we continue to feel that there 1s scopo for further
taprovenents.
Provision for Bad and Doubtful Debts

Tho Bank 1s ploasod to rata your policy with regard to provisions
for bad and doubtful debts, particularly 1n relation to the addition
of 120,000 per aonth to tlft general reserve, mo examiners war*
also satisfied with tho level of the bank's specific previsions.
Profits
We note the significant iMprovawmt 1h profitability since the last
Inspection In 1978 and particularly In the ywr ended 30 April 1982.
He understand that this satisfactory trend 1s continuing 1n the
current year despite the difficult economic conditions prevailing
and that the profit for the 17 month period ending 30 September 1983
will be ahead of budget.
The Bank would appreciate any consents you nay wish to aake after
your Board has considered the various natters to which I have
referred above.
Appendix XV (115) (l)(b)
"HI
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LOOTED

%
DEPOSIT AGREEMENT BETWEEN

GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LOOTED
and
c u i m n s s MAHOH CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED AS TROSTEI or THE SCKVASR WIST
of .
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited as T r u s t * * have depositedfor credit of an account
L"i Gainm Mahon Cayman Tnot United the mm of 1IS$9.7 million on thefollowing terns:
that the sura shall not bt repayable to It untilrepayments mad* to Culnnees h Mahon Ltd.
of Dublin, Ira land by Sctwarts Management
of «piali th« differential between the adraoca mads
to them of US$9.7 million and dm afomald amount deposited. Thereafter the
deposit shall not be repaid except pro tanto to loanrepayment! made to Guinness A Mahon Led.
that interest payable on this deposit wlD be equal in interest received by Guinness & Mahon L t d .
under the teems of the loan less
1 %per annum of the amount held by you for the time belat to tha credit of its account.
that Interest may be claimed by it only as and whan interest isreceWed on tha Mid loan by
Guinness & Mabon L t d .
that in the event of any default by Schwares Management
the deposit and any accrued interest may be forfaited by you pro tanto to the amount of such deftult.
£5. that although the said deposit may be forfeited by you ia accordance with the above, tha ipedflc deposit
and tha benefit of this letter may not be assigned, pledged or eollatartliaed in any way in frrour of
Guinness & Mahon Led. or any other person, Arm or company
without Its prior written consent.
6. that you act as principals In thereceipt of tha deposit and not as agents for Culnneaa fc Mahon Ltd.
that if you permit the withdnwd of any part of the turn such peimMon dull as regards the balance
of the sum and any unpaid interest thereon be without prtjudica to therights hereby conferred on you and
such permission shall not constitute a waiver thereof.
this Agreement shall be construed according to the laws of the Cayman Islands which dull be the forum
.for the enforcement of this Agreement or any proceedings arising out of K.
the deposit isrepayable in U . J . d o l l a r s .

"U"refers to Schwnrt* Maof
Appendix XV (115) (1) (c)
r*
SCHWARTZ MANAGEMENT COMPANY

520 Walnut Street/F)*h Floor
P.O. Box 10383
August 26 , 1982
Guinness & Mahon Ltd

17 College Green
Dublin, Ireland
Dublin 2
Attention: Michael J. Pender
Gentlemen:
We make reference to the enclosed copy of a telex
from your Mr. Pat O'Dwyer. We have discussed this
telex with Mr. John Collins of the Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Limited in Grand Cayman, British West
Indies.
We wish to roll the amount of the interest into the
note. This was our understanding, which we had
reached during our meeting in London, in February,
1982.
n.
rv
BS:lmg
Enclosure
CC: John Collins
T
r*
6u1nna» t fawn limited
aevlew meeting 30 January in College green at 11.00 a.m.
Attended by: HP.' J.U. Traynor )

Nr. N.E. O'Kally ( Guinness I Mahon
Nr. D. NcCleane (
Nr. A. Byrne ) Central Sank
Nr. N. Kennedy l
Tha bank submitted Information 1n advance relating to the balance sheet dkte
31 December 1983.
«
,f
•(. r *The following mtters were discussed at the meeting:-
I. Proflti
The recent profits before tax of the bank can be sutmrtsed at follows:-
Sank arowp
I'OOO £'000
3 Months to 31 Dec sifter 1983 403 798
17 aonths to 30 Septesber 1983 1,580 3,431
12 smiths to 30 April 1982 1,688 2.273
The budgeted profit before tax for the current year (to 30 SeptesOer 19B4)
wet 12.2 wllllon for the Group of which the benk's share was approximately
£1.1 rtlHon.
In answer to-a query frost Mr. Byrne, Nr. Trayncrsafd that the subsidiaries -
now contributed approximately 50 per cent, of the total group profits.
fiulnness Mahon Caymen Trust had made a profit ef £265,000 In the f i r s t three
months: -
Capital Adeguecy
The free resources ratio for the bank at 30 Decesber 1983 was 10.? per cent, and
15.4 per cent, for the 6roup.
The capital employed/gross assets ratio of tha bank was S.7 per cent, as against
per cent, for the-group.
3. I Centre! Bank Ratios

Mr. Byrne said that the bank was-broadly t»compliance with the supervisory stand.
Nr. Traynor said that the Schwartz loan of $10 Million which had given r i s e to
sane discussions before would be liquidated before the end of the year. ( T h i s 1>
was discussed at a meting on 30 Hay 1«83 and subseouently we obtained a l e t t e r
ftulnness M«hon Caynan Trust indicating that the right of set off between the
loan and a deposit existed. Oespitc this Is was indicated that the Dank would «
• • !>»«• lr»n hefoo "nnttrwt.n'rt" ^
T
Appendix XV (116) Mr Joseph Seeley
Joseph Seeley.
a) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo no 1503.
b) Letter of 24 December 1986 - MJ Pender to BA Ursell.
c) Companies Office annual return dated 31 December 1990.

1909 HISTCW SECURITIES LIMITED / EXTgNSICN / RfflgTiaj
Amount: SIl»,000 - Loan

130,000 - Letter* of Credit
Purpose: Originally advanced during 1984 to

urcbase shares In Waatverd Cables
Climited.
Teris/Repayant: S0.09.SS. Cash Near / Rental ChargM -

Reduction £4,000 per month to centime.
Rate: Base »2* on the Loan.
Usee I charges on the Lettera of Credit.
Security: I. Bleak Transfer caapletod over 3.194

Hbeteerd Cables Limited, Ordinary Share*.
3. Bleak Trensfer completed over 102,000
Wbetward Cables Limited 3CH Preference
Sheres.
9. Guarantee signed by Josepb Seely.
Security nay be taken as adequate for Loan
£119,000.
Hotel Exposure: £139,000
M.J.P. 'to B.A. Ursell 24th December, 1986
Bruce :
As requested I list hereunder particulars of the Accounts for which we hold backing
deposits from GMCT :
a) Non Resident Accounts ( which are included in the full set- off
category for Central Bank Returns : -
b) Resident Accounts for which we hold deposits from GMCT duly hypothecated
Page 2
c) Resident Account for which we hold deposit direct from Olympic

Investments, which is a Cayman Company : -
d) College Trustee clients for whom College have arranged backing

deposits here through G.M.C.T. : -
Histon Securities 126,388.22 IR
Regards,
Michael J. Pender
9im
A 095097 0010 B1
COMPANIES ACTS, W to M .
ANNUAL RETURN OF:-
JtqfaMiM/MJMlip
mmto impitstai kat.
titsThtj SeaMtpes Linked
mdeeptotltt. 3.L. ..day at

fff&e tefM* No i
q t iii i iii iii ii ll i ll pvj 5
15
1 Address K
„
HWM«»W«M«MMN«WIN**«W«««*M«M*»*»M«»Ut*«*(MM»>«*MMaM*»**MI*»«M»<*
2 Situation of the Registers of Members and Debenture-holders

(a) (jjMMww <jf jrfxe «r tdfcfcft ' •• »*•«•••« •»•»•*•••« •••• nMtlMocitMMtn
ftcM) if Am At
KfbKrat ojUtt Ar
W of aay ^ WnM*(»»*<*«*IM»*»*»MM»»t»M*»»*«l
AMrtf ii|binis cokv of
wlift
V M i n ef
4 rfcr
Is kept).
THIS mmimi MUST U a Q N D ON PAOt • BYTHI SECRETARY AND A DIRECTOR OF
THECOMPANY
fti • m i l l «tth M h o M d M t cm*hi» Act, 1*3. Heavy peaaMa ire

>i Stdlm m *Wm Actfcr « • » la cwtfy wMh ttae isqnfc«ni«aU and fcr
Dt&vtredforfiUttgby ... .
JJ "iT'fFimYfwrk-ftooA-
• T. • „,•>„ R
3 SUMMARY OF SHARE
(a) Nominal Share Capital
Nominal Share Capital £...../.QQ divided into:

i Insert number of Class)
/QO .sharesior......
of j^.: sach
..shares of. iach
..shares or each
..sham of/. each
(b) Issued Share Capital and Debentures

Number Class
Number of shares of each class taken A. ..(hares
up to the date of this return (which
number must agraa with the total shown .. shares
in the list as held by existing membersV
. shares
.shares
1
Number of shares of each diss issued
subject to payment wholly ia cash.
Jl .shares e
.shares s
.shares f
.shares
Number of shares of each class issued

as fully paid up for a consideration
oilter than cash.
Number fbn
Number of shares as paid up to the
of each class issued of £ per share.
as partly paid up
for a consideration shares issued as paid up to tha
other than cash and extern of £ per share.
the extent to which
each such share is shares issued as paid up to the
so paid up. extent of £....'. per share.
shares issued as paid up to the
extent of £ per share.
Number Class
Number of shares (if any) at each dasc
issued at a discount.
25/10/88 12:57:88 -> 2833929
^ CAPITAL AND DEBENTURES

Amount of discount on the issue of
shares which has not bcto written
off at the date of this return
Number CUss
£....:. .pershare on J . / .shares

Amount csBed
up on number £._ per share on .shares
of sham of
each class £ per share on . shares
£ per share oa .shares
Total amount of caHs received iodudmg payments on application

and aHotmeut aid any sums received on shares forfeited.
CUss
Itotal amount, if aoy.
l | n r f to he cossidcied
as piU on namlirr of
shares of each dam
bsoed as M(f paid vp
for | other
dam cash.
Total amount, if aay.

agreed to ha coaiiMd
• 1^1 « namber^f
bmed at pmdy prid up
for a ctmsidemtk
than cash.
of caBsaapaid
Total of suns, if twcf, paid by way of
Total amount of smas, if any. aBowed by way of dtammt in respect of any

debentures aSaoetbe detect dm la* ittur*
Total nnmhrr of shares of eadidass
Tetalumoant paid, if mf, ets slum forfaited
NOTE:—Where a compaay bas converted anyof its shares into stock, then, where appropriate, the
references to dikes ia panp^b 3 shaft batokenas mhwucei to slock and references to number
of shares slid be taken as references uaoousi of stock.
4 PARTICULARS OF INDEBTEDNESS
Total aatouM of indebtedaess of die compaay in respect of all
mortgages aad charge* which ate reqafaed to be reglsiaied with the
Registrar of Caapwin under the Compaua Act, 1963, or which
would have been requited so to be registered if created after 1st
July, 1908. ftvii.
5 List of Past and Present Members 3/
Lisujf pervws holding shares in the company on die i i i imuil •miiitj iji
19.40. and o( persons who have held liiares therein ai any tine since the date of last renin, or in
i her case of thefirst return, of the incorporation of the company. [See Notes at toot ot page]
Account of Shares
Particulars of shares trans
i ferred since the date of the
Folio in last return, or in the case c
register Numbers ol thefirst return, of the ircor-
ledger Names. Addresses and shares held poration of the compar.y, by Renal'**
containing Occupations by existing («) persons who are stif
particulars members member* and lb) persona
at date of who have ceased to be
return ipeniberst
•t
Date of
Number Regis iratioa of
t transfer
i
i
t
i
i
Ho CHnNfrZS
x
e
i
5
i
1
5
"B
s
. i i I
1 I
£
i
j
•Tha tola! number o( shares held by cachacnbcr must b« stated. and the total* must be iddcd up sc uic agree »ith I-K cuaxr 3t
shares stated i« the Summary o( Shut Capital and Debentures to have beta taken up.
tWhea the shares are of dittereut classes these columns tliould be sub-divided sofcattlx number o< each class held or transferred may
be shown separately.
fThe date of REWRITTEN of each transfer should be given W well W the numher of IKI'B rramfetred MI each date. The particulars
. should * placed opposite the nan* «(the transferor and eot oppotiutatot the tieaaiarae. but tha aaaie ot the trambiH auy b« inserted
in tlie Remnki'" oiluBin inunaHeiely uppwite the partksilaa oteach tnuulcr.
Noras
(1) If the return for an* of the 5 immediately preceding year* has given as at the date of that return the full particulars
required as to past and present members and the shares held and transferred by them, only such of the particu.ars neec be
given as relate to persons ceasing to be or becoming members since the date of the lastretun-, ar.il to shares iransfetred
since that date.
(2) If the company is not a private company, the renins need not gjve any particulars relating to shares transferree by
persons who are stil members or who have ceased to be members or the dales of registration of the transfers
(3) If the names ia the list are not arranged in alphabetical order, an index sufficient to enable the name of any person
to be readilyfound must be annexed.
(4) Where a company has convened any of its shares into stock then, where aporopnatc, thereferences to shares in
paragraph 5 shall be taken as references to stock and references to number of shares shall be takes as references to amount
of stock.
/
total m w t > e r a l i b T O k e k l k ¥ e a c k « i e « ^ " M i l t * stated, u d l t e » U b Mmbcicrf

s t M e d i n t f a c S a a a a i y o f S f c a r e C t p i t a i t a d D t b e B t a r a t o k a w e fcewtakeaap.
Hn.JLltl
W l M l l K l t M II M
R I II llf l l i t t l l l M l l M I I lllllll rill 111 If III—"tf ' '—1
feesbowoscparattlr.
tTbe d u e afressirttjui ol C M * b u s i e r iboald b e given i s w e i as tke a m b e r of j h a r a transferred o n each dale. T b e pariicvljn
should b e placed MWMitc * e m a c of tbe U a n f o n x tnd MX affOU* l t » i o f Ifct t r a a B f t r M . b u t A c M « i e at Ik* mntlctcc a i ) b e inMrwd
ia ihe -rmuaI"e o l m u i ixmnetS»icJ)i o p p o s i t e l i e p u t i c u h n o { c a c k u u a f c r .
^ 6 Particulars of Directors and Secretaries (Ser Notes 41 foot of pagej
Particulars of the persons who are directors of the company at the date ofihit return:
Burets occupation
An> former and particulin 0:
Present Christian name Christian name Nationality Usual residential other directorships or
or names and surname or names and if not Irish address bodies corporate
surname incorporated in the
SOW
^ !
'"'dfifj'i&irfcri £75.
Mo/vfjw
AS /?#*/£ I
i3
«
I
E
Pariicukn of rtrperson who u sttrtury of *%e company at the date of tut mum:
Name
(In the ease of an individual, present Usual residential address 4
Christian name or names and Any Conner Cbrisuaa name (In the case of a body corporate
surname. In the ease of a body or names aed surname the registered or principal office)
corporate, the corporate name)
See Li
kNOCX AfJNe S
A2)**e£
f
•ts
-
Co. XjMBJZ/CK
•
Signed. Director
This return must be signed by
the Secretary and a Director:— Signed. . Secretory
Mom
"Director" includes my person who occupies the petition 10 in the case of a named wo tun. the name or
of a director by whatsoever name called, and any peraaa surname by which she was Imnwr previous to
in accordance with whose directioas or SaatruetkMi the the manage.
directors of the compaiy are accustomed '.0 act. The names of all bodies coc^crjte incorporated j the
-CWnuran name" inaada a lorauune and "surname" in State of which the director Is altc a director, should be
the etse of a person usualy known by a titk different given, txeept bodies corporate of which the company
(sum his surname, means thai tide. mahiag the retina ia tha *ho:iy-owiMd iubeidiar> or
"Fanner Quistain I U K " and "former sunwise" do not bo<tes corporate wMch are the whotty-owned nitnidiaries
include— either of tne company or of another bocy corporate at
(a) in the case of a penon unaMy known by a title which tha company it Use whotty-owned subsidiary A
different from tui surname, the name by which body corporate is deemed to be the wholly-owned sub
he wis known previous to the adoption of or tMiary of another if it has no members eaoept that o-het
lucceMioa in (he tide; or and that othe r's wholly-owned subsidiaries and its or their
lb) in the ease of any Mtion. a former Chrmiaa nominees. H ihe ipaceprovided in the form it msuflfcieat.
name or surname where that name or surname puticuluia uf other directonhipt should be listed on a
w u changed or disused before |he person bear- separate ituement attached to uii return.
ing the name attained the age of IS years or has Whem aD ihe partners in a firm are joint secretaries,
been changed or disused for a period of no) less the name and principal office of thafirm nay be stated.
thai 20 years; or
CERTIFICATES AND OTHER DOCUMENTS
ACCOMPANYING ANNUAL RETURN
Certificate to be given by u director and the secretary of every- private company
We certify dun the company has not since tbe due oft
(tin iasespiiiatisn ef tl>s umpaaji'ttir last annual return) issued any invitation to the public to subscribe
for any shares or debeatures of the company.
tta tbe case of tbc first

strike out (be Int ahenmtfve.
Certified copies of Aocowut:

Except ia the ceae of a company «Mdi Is carried or exempt f m the appBcado* of section 128 of the
CumpUktB Act, 1963. Aeie mat be amend to this n a n e witaa copy, certified bo* by a director
mad by the secretary at tbe loaapany to be a true copy, of every balance sheet Md before tbe anaual
general meeting of tbe company held during the period to which tUs return relates (indudiag every
document required by law lo be annexed so the balanrr sheet) and a copy (certified as aforesaid) of the
report of the auditors oa, and of tke report of the dmctors acctxnpanyiag, each such balance sheet. If
any sack balance sheet or documrat required by law to be aaantrd thereto is In a leaguage other than
EagBsb or Irish them must abobe annexed to that balance sheet a translation in EngKsh or Irish of the
balance sheet or document cotti&ed ia tbe prescribed manner tp be a correct translation. If any such
balance fbeet as afawntid or document required by lew to be annexed thereto did not comply with tbe
requirenmets of the law as ia force at the date of the audit with respect to theform of balance sheets or
documents aforesaid, as tbe case may be, there must be made such adtKtioue to and correction in the copy
as would have bee* required to be made in the balance sheet or document ia order to make it comply
with the said requfeemeats, and the fact that tbe copy has been so amended must be stated thereon.
Banking Companies•
A banking company, is order to avail itself of Ibe benefit of section 375 of the Companies Act. 1963,
must add to this return a statement of the names of the several places where it carries on business.
Appendix XV (117) Mr Sidney Seymour, deceased
Sidney Seymour.
a) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr George Crampton dated 8 February

2000.
b) Letter of 18 August 1971 - Mr Don Reid to Mr John Ronan.
c) Letter of 8 March 1972 - Mr Don Reid to Mr George Crampton.
d) Guinness and Mahon list of suitably secured loans dated 1974.
e) Extract of Guinness and Mahon Meeting of Board of Directors of 28

November 1974.
_ ' I
p^"" . 7
18 237 Q. MR. JUSTICB COSMLIOI Mr. Crampton, we will

i 19 continue then. Would you
j*
20 look at this file of documents that you gave us

21. yesterday?
22 A. Yes.
23 238 Q. I think it is document No. 10 of 8th March 1972.
24 That is from Kennedy Crowley telling you how the
25 Trusts were going to be set up. Do you see that
26 there were to be six Trusts set up, Exhibit 1?
27 a. Yes.
29 A. Yes.
32
1 240 Q. Were these fellow Directors of yours?
2 A. Correct.
3 241 Q. Were these Trusts set up, do you know?
4 A. That, I do not know.
5 242 Q. I do not know?
6 A. No.
7 243 Q. You have not talked to your fellow Directors at all
8 about this?
9 A. There is only one alive at moment.
10 244 Q. Who is that?
11 A.
12 245 Q. is that
13 A. Correct.
14 246 Q. is it your recollection that you did not talk to any
15 of them after this financial arrangement was made?
16 A. I understood that there were ... (INTERJECTION).
17 247 Q. You understood that they were all set up?
18 A. Yes, but I could not confirm that. I understood
19 there were six trusts.
20 248 Q. Do you know whether any of them had Ansbacher
21 accounts such as you had or Guinness & Mahon
22 accounts such as you had in Dublin?
23 A. I am sure they had.
24 249 Q. You are sure they had?
25 A. They probably had, yes.
26 250 Q- In other words, you think they carried on the same
27 way as you carried on?
28 A. They might, but not for as long.
29 251 Q. Not for as long?
1 MR. QBORGB CBAMPTOK WAS EXAMIHED, AS FOLLOWS, BT
2 MS. M&CKBT
3
4 282 Q. XS. jQCKlTi I have just a very few

5 questions, Mr. Crampton.
6 Pirst of all, if you could just give me one piece of
7 information in relation to the other Trusts that you
8 mentioned, of your fellow Directors. You said all
9 the Directors, except are now dead, I
10 think?
11 A.
12 283 Q.
13 the last bundle that you sent us in yesterday and it
14 is the letter of 8th March 1972, from Don Reid,
15 Exhibit 7?
16 A.
17 284 Q.
18 you could give me the full name of each of those
19 Directors? Mr. Clarke?
20 A. j•
21 285 Q.
Mr. Samuel Clarke.
22 A. Mr. Bast?
23 286 Q.
James Sydney Bast.
24 you have already said is
25 A. Yes.
26 287 Q. Mr. Seymour?
27 A. Sydney Seymour, S.H. Seymour.
28 288 Q. Mr. Webb?
29 A. Mr. Ivan Webb.
| 38
f
Haroault House 69/71 St Stephen's Green Dublin s Telephone 757971
John Boaaa, Baq.

V. Rouen & Sons, R Dfft/A
94/95 South Kail
Code. l>ue: 18 Auguat 1971
V '
r«: Cayaaa Iilaadi Tmt
Sear John,
'la the coors* of dlaouasloas which X had cm Friday with tiuici.
George Cramp ton and ; 1 was asked to writ* to you
asking you to advise tha* and Huira. 8. Clarke, 8. Seymour, J. Sidney Kaet
and I. Webb regarding tha establishment of discretionary trusts
la tha Cayman Islands. I had already a ant yon fox general Indorsation
a draft of a trust dead which la used la the Cayman Zalcnda aad the
abore tuned would lika you to advlaa them aa a group on tho suitability
of auch a trust dead fox their purposes but at a Later stage '-efersssa
will of conrep be naeessaxjr to tha Individual rsqulrcaenta of each.
Xa tha flrat lnatanca they would wlah to have wrlttan advloa aad
at a later ataga thay would like to dleouea thla written advice vlth you
oa aome aultabla ocoaalon when you are la town.
Aa yon know fro* your other ebaaaotloae these trusts will be tha
recipients ultimately of certain tax free profits la the Cayaaa Ealaada
aad tha anxiety la that the arcaagamaats should be as flexible aa
possible, consistent with the continuing tax fraa status of the trust
aad of appointments made by the txusteea to theâaeflelarlaa of
the truat.
I have already given you soon consent oa tha general features of
the trust deed aad if you feel a further discussion would be helpful
please let me know.
I am sending a copy of this latter to He. G> C. Cramp ton.
Yours sincerely
D. Raid
MurtkiCwayftW PtwMtr WA CiamuhMtt tYnripnl Manqten

MMCIAII.U'A KJwanlKwgwil-X'A Snrnn Hakt
Conor Cruwky Kl'.V IVImi O't'nwur .U'.\ tirmld WTwfc-r Kt'A IWr l^nrli
IJUREHCRCNIIFK-Y K C A I livid Ibnn- fl'A
NtilOwkn-KA Ak-x Spain K'A Dim Rultl
AVainmKulrylTA
Hainault House 69/71 St Stephen's Green Dublin 8 Telephone 757971
O.C. Craapton, Baq., 0K/8C

9, ltople toad,
Dublin 14. IJbJ0 8Cli Kerch, 1972 .
Re: Ceareaa T r u a t a .
D u i Mr C r a a p t o n ,
X am Barry t h a t I t tee t a k e n a a r a t h e r l e a s e r Co o n e * b a c k t o y o u w i t h
tke d r a f t L e t t e r a t Klabea. I m no* aneloaiag a l x ooplaa o f t h l a
d r a f t eo t h a t i t v u j b e e o a a l d a r a d by each of t h e I n d i v i d u a l s concerned.
E t h i n k t h a t t h e texue of t h e l e t t e r a r e f a i r l y aalf-explaaatory and
s h o u l d n o t g i v e r i a e t o any p r d b l a n a b u t , a h o u l d anyone e l ah t o d l a c u a a
t h a n w i t h mm X w o u l d b a h a p p y t o d o e o .
S i n e * x e e w y o u w e h a v e a a a t t o t h a Cayman X e l a n d a t h e r e v i s e d d r a f t
T r u a t Bead, t o g e t h e r w i t h t h a d a t a l l . i r e q u i r e d t o e o a p l a t e t h e appointed
ulaaa I n aach eaaa.
F o r o a a a o f r e f e r e a e a , a n d t o a v o i d t o o ameh i d e n t i f i c a t i o n , w e e r a c a l l i n g
tha Truata tha Whitethorn Traata. t o u r own w i l l b a t h e W h i t e t h o r n • T r u s t ,
KB C l a r k 1 e t h a W h i t e t h o r n B t r u a t , X r X e a t ' a t h a W h i t e t h o r n 0 T r u a t ,
Xr Beynour4^ t h a Whitethorn B T r u a t , and
Mr V e b b ' a t h e W h i t e t h o r n f . T r u e t i
Am s o o n a a t h e T r u s t s a r e d r a w n u p X w i l l b a r e t h a L e t t e r o f H l a h u e s i g n e d
i n e a c h e a a a b y P a u l B a r r i a w h o La t h a e a t t l o r . Too f o r m a l a t a p a w i l l t h e n
remain to be taken. Tha f i r a t I s t h a f o r m a t i o n by t h a T r u e t e e a o f a c o c p a n y
( o r COBPANLM) t o r e c e i v e IUOOBM f r e a i d e p o a i t e o r l n v a s f c a a a t a o n b e h a l f o f t h a
Cruateas. The aeeond w i l l b e t h e e x e c u t i o n by P a u l B a r r i a o f a S e e d ( I n
b l a n k ) a a a l g n l n g h l a powere a a A p p o i n t o r of t h e T r u a t a .
Ineli.
It'.4 KJjrsr Kunhf >\ \
Cimjuiliaail IViwqMl M«inm-n
IVTUil.Jtiwn V.' \ I'^htanl K.i)fan )•'<
S'«naiii Ibl-
CiWtVnn U'H' \ .«rb» OVuiHur M \
l^'iranvt »>»!••»• !•«' v llnil IW. h't' * liwukl Wlm*r IVA I'-irr I .< urii
Null I'lintVt Sfuun !-"t*.» l*«i tti'fcl
SITTTAPI V SECURED - ALL REFERENCES
30th Jane 1972 - Management Report

SHOO
102
n:4
84
n«
303
104
25.6
223
1,300
101
27
76
41
53
137
52
10
11.9
31it October 1974 - Management Report

301
5
9
90
10
. 261
17
67
80
788
Sidney Seymour 10
82
100
107
20
121
Appendix XV (117) (1) (e)
'••a
r>
Mil U.
ocao or r
imrtt-T 'mm- r ' (1) Hntt»M«l»
•5^— ESS sr-
^ Wlooo ».».» ' HtMUv mmni. m*— MUp.

evaou*
Appendix XV (118) Mrs Nora Shanahan
Mrs Nora Shanahan.
a) Letter of 27 August 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
b) Ansbacher Limited statement of 14 October 1991 re a/c A/A48.
c) Letter of 2 October 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
d) Ansbacher Limited statement of 30 September 1991 re a/c A/A48.
e) Letter of 29 August 1991 - JD Traynor to Mrs Nora Shanahan.
f) Internalfile note re Mrs Nora Shanahan of 27 August 1990.

n
1 limited
Tel: 765144/763065
Rue 612035
27th August, 1990

N. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness A Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
•WW
Dear Oavld,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection when
I am with you tomorrow a Sterling Draft for Stg.£5,000 payable
t
to Nora Shanahan.
) The cost should be debited to Ansbacher Limited Account
No.13154602.
^ I
\
1
•ff.D. Travnor
JDT/AJW
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indias.
r J<u?o«rier Li mi ted
Telephone No. 9—4663/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Addreaa Guinness
Cavimn AM <18
L J ACCOUNT MUMBW Q00C1A36 PAGE fi
BALANCCkaHOWNAMIN: stei'ting
17764.52
/10/9I 14/10/91 LOB
DR
GO
EUDGHT POHWARO 3GOOO.00
• -
rr ,>.»
•L '-J.
47784. Bzilf
CABWED TOHWABO
•ine-
' October,' 1991
' 6a beett:
Logan*
Logan*
Esq.
Esc[,.,y. , \
tar continental iBank Linji tedv \v ,r •-' .. -
Irish Intercontinental •
'91 Merrioh
ohv Square./^:'^'i':>-/, 'v >
•\DUBLIN:2 ;
•'• •"••.":••••.-••> • '"v •• • ".Vi A- . •.'-;':'
,-- - '-'' •. ' .
Dear Gaxrett> ':.: . . -

Could you please arrange to;> .lodge,
'lodge, .tbeênclo8.ed(-.pâ'f^.. '^Â^f^Z^M
nvif
Stg.£30,000 :to"credit of isb'&chei: Limi^d,<AcCouxit .'•
Ansbacher
No.0.2/01087/81 . :
v-?. ^mmh^Mm
• : .' - ' \.- ...
- • - • • " ' . ^ : : ... . • •
Yours sincerely
ticerely, • •> "; V •' ""••• ^'"i':^;"-''
•• <• " - .- r ••• . "; .
:
• For AWSBACkBR LIMITED V;^'. y'y - iivif^SS
. v.--.. . ,. - ,t., ... • : ' v
JDT/AJW
«.•.:•• • . 'i • • • • • •-•A*

. . . " . , . . , -* v.*
•'."•.. -.ft,'' / .
." rjfiT; 1- -
• - -A
s i s t m i rj r ( :)U"j T ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British Wait Indies
Telephone No. 9-4863/4
rasbacher Limited Telex CP 306 Cable Addreaa Guinness
Cayman
VA M
Is- J ACCOUNT NUMB8H 80001638
•ALANCSStHOWN AMItt sterling
E
bl/ 8/91 BUOUQHT COflWABO 22213.06

5/ 9/91 2/ 9/91 DRAFT 6000.00 17213.05
bo/ 9/91 30/ 9/91 Interest to 30/ 9/91 551.47
P
PERSONAL •,.•-• August,-

' >r J**':.'^" ' ' ''V f
Mrs..Nora Shanahan,
8 Clifton Gardens, .
LOVIDON W9 IDT. • .. .. "
.!' •.!•.«.•• . .' A,
rDear • Nora, • ; •
Following your 'phone
herewith cheque for.
'I"have noted Mike's address.- , •"> .
. Hops thing3 : .are going well.-- ." -.vV.-^ , ' .
• •• • • ' • ... .;• •*..i\>.-. ••.. ... ., • •• .v.: . . • • I..^ •
• Kindest regards, ': ': y . . - *'7 ^ , :,

;
^Yours sincerely, • . -''.V-. v. - " ^ "-'W'M
?
' • • - : ; . • CS^^-M
- ; ..-v.- •• • ;.•; - - . . yy,.
J.P. Traynor. ••••• 'V-- -V ^ V ^ •

— - •• .—i" . ..v..--. .'.'••-h:- -^v'''- •
'• • ... J'.. • . ..*..">.> K ' : » ••:. '•
jDT/Ajy .. . .. , .v-'
1M
; "XT:
Appendix XV (118) (1) (f)
FILE NOTE
MORA SHANAHAN
Nora called to see as arranged on Friday 24th.August

when we discussed ay letter to her of the 19th July.
She left the draft for £25,000 with and I undertook
to lodge to Ansbacher United A/A Account.
She will be opening a new Current Account in London.
I will post to her on Tuesday 28th August a draft - ex
the A/A Account - for Stg.£5,000.which she will lodge to
that Accopnt.
She left with, ae an envelope containing instructions re
A/A funds' in event of her! death.
27/08/90
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (119) Mr Michael J Shanley
Michael J Shanley.
a) Extract from Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 13 January.
b) Guinness and Mahon authorisation form to open deposit account of 13

January 1978.
c) Guinness and Mahon file note dated 13 January 1978 accepting funds for
account of Keeladrum Investments Limited.
d) Guinness and Mahon file note dated 13 January 1978 accepting funds for
account of Keeladrum Investments Limited.
e) Letter of 27 July 1978 - John Furze of GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
f) Guinness and Mahon memo of 3 July 1979 - Mr Chris Waite to Loans

Services Department.
g) Maureen O'Brien Trust Deed dated 23 April 1970.
h) Letter of wishes of 23 April 1970.
i) Katharina Trust Deed dated 12 November 1977 and change of trustees and
deeds of appointment.
j) Letter of 21/22 January 1987 - Mr TK Smith to Mr Michael Shanley.
k) Letter of 18 February 1986 - Mr TK Smith to Mr Michael Shanley.
1) Letter of dated 21 January 1987 - Mr TK Smith to Mr Ellis.
m) Letter of 5 February 1987 - Mr Michael Shanley to Smith Foy and

Partners Solicitors.
n) Letter of 3 February 1986 - Mr TK Smith to Mr Michael Shanley.
o) Letter of 22 November 1982 - Mr TK Smith to Mr Sean Mooney.
p) Letter of 6 December 1982 - Mr Sean Mooney to Mr TK Smith.
q) Transcript of evidence of Mr Thomas Kevin Smith dated 27 September

2000.
O
Minutes of the 171st Meeting of the Banking/

Credit Committee hpld at 17 College Green, Dublin 2.
on Friday 13th $.f
J.D T. - M. E. O'K. - M. J . P. - GMcC.. - P. J . F. - P. O'D. - BMcL. -

I. W. K. - M. C. K.
674: :h Investments Company - (See Minute No. 611)*

A factllty of t \ w a s granted to the above mentioned on 26/10/77. It has
now been recommended to let them have an extra £40,000 to bring their total
facility to £170,000.
Amount: £170,000
Purpose: Purchase of properly
Term: Bridging to 31/I0/7B
Rate: 2% aver bate
Security: "SUITABLY SECURED". Solicitors undertaking to hold
Title Deeds of Property In Leeson Street to our order.
Recommended.
.f\t> YWO VA
Authorisation to open Deposit Account

<o DISTRIBUTION OF COHES WHffI: CtorfcalUcrio*. YELLOW : Banking Mamt*r. PINK I O * . BLUE : Ctntnimng CHECKLIST
k
Account Opened By:
uto
Data Opened:
Authorlwdg V ! wcK Data Clarlcel
Account Name Sontrol
A/C Con Met
C/c M.CX
g M^Hs
• •
RE»OENCY STATUS External
Rnktent
Tick Jtthrmn» Box wtr» en "X"
CURRENCY DESIONATION
Tfc» JMnaMtasaawtM "X" Irtah ' Pound* - Other
PWWd. Starling <
8TATEMENT
REQUIREMENTS
MATURITY .
INSTRUCTIONS
SBSSDt-
I
Individual A/C Signature Card
SIGNING Joint/Plrm/Conipany A/C Mandate Farm. SENT OUT
POWERS (Strike mar a M r t m r aor WHMMN
Tftft KHrmt tm mm m "X"
/•v
!lf tfflrmnttrt
•
ÂUTHORISED TO SUPPLY INFORMATION mark "JO
FORWARD INFORMATION TO..
1T7.
AMOUNT OP DEPOSIT
*mlL 9 flate S
CALL/NOTICE - CALL 2 DAYS. jSy,
DEPOSIT Retell ReteX
1 MONTH OTHER tS—ctfvi.
MATURITY DATE Rata %
FIXED TERM
DEPOSIT
' STANOINQ INSTRUCTIONS TO RELOOQE
InviKRMnt cuttomen A/C

// tppllcibU rick ba* withStaH D
(DAccount IVaftplteMk tick -
»cu> a M aa •
COMPUTER FILE SET-UP FORM COMPLETED BY
TO BE COMPLETED BY
CLERICAL SECTION KARDSX CARD
Prepared By Cheeked By Piled By
Fwm PIUMrf for Filing By ! DATS :
1
•cm
RLE*
Kaeladrun Investaents Limited, 13th January, 1978.
e/o G.M.C.T.
ACCEPTANCE:
VttlM 12th January, 1878.
Amount £160,000.00 Stg.
PlaaaaPay Gulnnesa+Mahon Limited.
for Account Yourselves
l! Tarm Fixed to 13th January, 1979.

t y
Rat»% par annum 10
Arranged Through Dir«ot.
1 7,9
r>
®
.»
| file: |
F * « Keeladru* Investments Lialted, 13th January, 1978.
c/o G.M.C.T.
I-
ACCEPTANCE:
Vatua 12th January, 1978.
Amount £18,332.27 stg.
PI——Pay Guinness+lfahon Llaited.
for Account Tourselves
Term Seven Days Notice
Rata %p«r annum
Arranged Through Direct.
1 ao
T

" A Mambar ef tha Oulmaaa Mahon Merchant Banking Group
IktaplMMNo 9-4*8V4 n0.tmW
Tale* CP 308 0«nd Cayman
CaMeMdraae CMnneae BrttiahWaatlmUM
yourref
^ ourr*4 JAFsjat JUly 27, 1978
Martin Keane, Esq.,

Guinness t Mahon Ltd.,
17 College Green,
Dublin 2,
IRELAND.
Sear Martin,
KEELADKJM IHVESTMEWTS LIMITED

In your telex of 30th June you indicated you would be sending me a copy
of the statement of the seven day notice account maintained by you in the
name of the above company. To date it does not appear to have been re-
ceived, and perhaps you would make a note to let me have a copy, and also
forward copies at regular intervals
In order to discharge our faes and disbursements, could you arrange to
transfer say £1,000 to the Sundry Sub-Ccqpaay account under advice?
Best wishes,
Tours sincerely,
/
JOHN A. FURZE
T
1 S
t
MEltORAyPPH
To: Loans Services Department, 3rd July, 1979,

Guinness Hahon ft Company
From: Chris Waite,
Guinness + Iflahdn Limited.
Re:
7
Maybach Investment Co.Ltd.
D Interest has recently been paid on the above Loan Account

which presently has a balance £160,000.00 debit. The funding
deposit is with GuinnesstfabonCayman Trust and we understand
that Interest accruals on the backing funds will have been
credited on the application dates. IFe shall he grateful if any
®*SSaS-iSM? o v 8 r above £160,000.00 could be remitted to this
office.\ It is in order for you to credit our account in your
books buKit would be helpful if you- would mark credits for "the
attenttoix\>f Mr. -Chris Waite.
CAV/SM
. f r
1 9 5
Appendix XV (119) (1) (g)
[ T Xu SJ^TThliUBKT l a undo' tho afty ..
j Hilt . Ono tbouanaj
n i m hundred and aavonty Botnoon HAPUPBH O'BRIgf of Barrook
Street,Srunahonbo County Loltrlm.Jlnrrlod nomas ( h a r o i n a f t o r
oatlai "tbo S e t t l o r " ) of tho ono p a r t and K.C.ZTfljnThr.vlrvr it a.
ro/cloterod offloo n t 69/71 rt.litcr-hon'n brooa Eufclin 2 OTS
I covaBriow Aim cr/iranr or t i c mvr or iwRLAMtfhoroinaftar o a U o a
"tho Dank") {hnrolro f t o r J o i n t l y onllad "tho Truoteaa")of t h e othoa
? X» Ji R S A 3 - '"••.'
(n) Tho S e t t l o r In doalrouo of e s t a b l i s h i n g a Settlement on ;
t r u o t . ( h o r a l t n f t a * o s l l o d " t h e T r u s t " J i n manner h e r e i n a f t e r
appearing ' ./ • ' ."'•'•
(to) To t h a t i n t e n t t h e S a t t l o r bos oouaod t o bo p o i d H n t o t h o
nomas of tho rruat*oa tbo sun ofOno.hundred poundo and I t l a
«
appraliendod t h a t t h e S o t t l o r my froia Slaw t o time t r a n o f e r or voo.

or-oauoe to bo roc tad I n tho Truoteoe o t h e r nonoya lnvacrtr-onta or
property to be hold by tbo Traotoas upon tho .truot a h e r e i n a f t e r
n.ot o u t .
( o ) . Tho S e t t l o r haa dirooted end iutoude t h a t tho t r u o t oh a l l bo
Irrevocable fron tho oxooution t h e r o o f .
(d) Tho Trustees havo affrood » t tho r e q u e s t of the S e t t l o r t o
cot es Truatooo horoof.
1101 THIS XtinEfiTOnB WITHRSSKBI. no f o i l ono I -
X. Zn t h l a Indonjhire tho following oxproaaioaa s h a l l where tho
oontext ao odnlta or r o q u i r e s have t h o fclionlug roopoativo
wonios® i-
(o) "Tho Truatooo" o h a l l monn tho nold or other tho Truotoe or
Truotooe for tho t l u o boirvr of t h i n Truot I
"Tho Truot Fund* o h a l l m a n —
( I ) . The nald sua of £100 (Ono hundred pounds)
( I I ) All nonoyo ond invontmento and property froa t i c o
to time paid or trrsnni'crrsi t o tho "motofin or othar-'j
vilno voatod in t!io ?runtooo or.a ooooiitod by tho ii
Truatooo on oiUUtiono to tho trur<t proporty: 9
f i l l ) AU noeunulatJ.ono ot inoowi ( i f ony) .
i'
' ? h o nonoya lnvoottiento an;l jjjroiwrt.y froa t i a o to l!
tizB xif.tiiHunijivf tho uosovc corcinDorcrs in t h i s jj
buU-olnueo rovosrod t o . i!
15
ohtti.l uoan tho a a t o |
vihioh ehfill oxjiivo tho period of nlxty ;>oav:i jl
I'rosi tha oirooution of t h i « flu'.tlci-ont; or ;
) on which ohall oxplro thff j-orioil of t-.ionty yeoro fron
tho death of ttio lsot ourvivcr of all tbo doocondantc
ailo nnd focala of hio Into Jlritnimio f-Tnjooty Kinj
Ocorco V. living nt tho data horaof; or
(iil)nlion tl:«ro ohnll bo no bcnoflclazy for tho tlso boing
In cxiatonco (nliioliovor data shall first oocur) or
(IT) ouch onrlinr do-to ao the Truataeo afcall at their
aboolulo dioorotion by dood appoint.
( d ) "Tbo Bonofioinrieo*' ohall. sean and i n o l a d o . t b e f o l l o w i n g
poroons nomoly t - .
Xho grand-chlldron and nore ronoto laana of Thonoo and
Srldgat Shanloy not* l a oxiotoooo o r born boreattor.
' (a) "TbeAipointed Clans" moans ~
' ( 1 ) Tho Donafiolurleot
I l l ) Any poroon f o r t h o t i n s b o i n s f r a o t i n e t o t i o o who
la a Dirootor or fornor D i r o o t o r of Drunlraolan Koldiqga
or of any Company bolng a o u b o i d i a i y ( w i t h i n t h o noon-
i n s of t h e Cotnponloo Aot 1963 of SruBbcolan Roldingo.
( i l l ) A n y Truot o r Body (nhother o o r p o r s t o o r uninooxtoornted)!
eatabllobod s x o l u o l v o l y for parpoaea which a r e I n law 1
obarltoble I
- but o h a l l noTorthelooo n o t Inslude t b e S e t t l o r o r any poroon I
" bo inc. for tho time bolng and from tina to tloefone of tho
Truateea.
IX. (a) Xho Truotoes s h a l l etand pooeeoaod of t h e -Truot fund
upon Truot t h a t t h e T r a e t e o a nay o t t h e i r abooluto d i a o r e t i o n
e i t h e r a l i o * the oane or any p a r t or p a r t s t h e r e o f t o remain
ob a o t u a l l y invoeted o r u n l n r e a t e d o r may at any t i n e o r t i a e o
s e l l c o l l I n or c o n v e r t I n t o noney tho oaoo o r any p a r t thor»<|f
and s h a l l a t t b e I l k a d i o o r o t i o n allow t o . r o n a i n unlnvooted or
invent o r l a y out t h e monoye produced thoroby and any o t h o r |
• c a p i t a l noneyo vhlah say bo rsooived by t b e Zrustoea i n x a o -
p e o t of t h e t r u o t pronlaoo i n the nomas or nnder t h o i « c o l
o o n t r o l of the Truateeo I n o r upon any of tho l n v e e t c o n t o or
property horoby authoriood with povror a t t h o i r d i s c r e t i o n t o
, . vary and tranopooo lnvootmonta o r p r o p e r t y for o r i n t o otbore
of any nature horoby a u t b o r i e o d .
(b) Tbe Truetooo aro horoby diroatod to pay and dioohoree
i
oat of tbe Trust Fund all coots chargea and oxpanaso ho-iuoovo:
iaourrod by thorn in the nannconnnt nnd administration of tbo
Sottloaont boroby oroatod nnd othormioo howooovor arioiag out!
i
of tho provioiono horoof inoludinc tut without proJuOloo to
tho ijonoroVlty ft tbo i'oroôinj ell ror.eosablo cooto cIic-ivou
ronunoration out-of-poakofc oi^ponoeo and all aumo proporly duo j
t o o n / Truotoo o r o t h o r pornnno u n d e r any of t h o p r o v l o l o n o
h e r e o f and a l l r o n o o m b l o l o c a l nnd o t h e r oonto and c h a r c e a
madu I n r o a p e o t of work dono by any p a r s o n I n connootlon w i t h
o r n r l o i n s out o f tho t r u o t p r o n l o o o Ann 'f IS HBKgfflr nKCf.ARBP
t h a t a l l suah ooota and oxfonoon r e f e r r e d t o I n t b l o o u b - o l a u s o
• b a l l n o t w i t h n t a n d l n s any o£ t h o Truota and p r o v l o l o n o h o r o l n -
a f t o r c o n t a i n e d and doolarod bjo a f l r e t chargo and l i a b i l i t y
on t h e Truot Fund.
III. Zt o h a l l b o ' l a w f u l f o r t h e I r u o t o e s a t any t i n e o r t i m e s
before t h e Yeqtloa Day a t t h e i r a b s o l u t e d i s c r e t i o n t o pqy o r
opply any p o r t o r p a r t s o f t h e o o p l t a l o r lnoome o f t b o T r u s t
Fund t o o r for t h o b e n e f i t of o i l o r any ono o r more t o t b o
e x o l c e i o n of t h o o t h o r o r o t h o r a of t h e Appoiutod Close f r e o d and J
relooood fron t h o t r u s t s oonoorning t b e nana PROVIDED ALWAYS t h a t ;
{
d u r i n g t b e l l f o of t b e S o t t l o r a n y e x o r o l s e by t h e Truotoo a n i t h
ouoh oonoent oo a f o r o e a l d o f t h e power I n t h i s olanao c o n t a i n e d
s h a l l bo e u b j o o t t o t h o l i m i t a t i o n t h a t t h e c a p i t a l o f t h e T r u o t . ,
Funds r e a a l n l n s a u b j o o t t o . t h e t r u s t s o f t h i s S e t t l e m e n t ioBodiito-
i
l y e f t o r auoh a x e r o l o o s h a l l bo of a v a l u e of n o t l e a n t h a n one
bund rod pounds.
XT. (o) Xn d e f a u l t of and a u b j o o t t o ' any euob a p p o i n t c a n t d s
a f o r e o a l d t b e Truotooo may from t l s a t o ' t l c o and a t any timo
e
before t h e To o t i t i c Soy pay o r a p p l y t h o whole o r ouoh p a r t a a t h e

Truatoee s h a l l t h i n k f i t o f t h e lnooma of t b o T r u a t Fund a s i t
n r l o e s t o or for t h o ualnionqnoo o d u o a t l o n advonceoont o r b e n e f i t
of a l l o r iraob one or. more e x o l u a i v o of t h o o t h o r o r o t h e r s of
tho Boneflolorlflo for t h e timo b o l n g I n oxintonco I n such p r o p o r -
t i o n s or manner and a u b j o o t t o ouoh t e r a o l i m i t a t i o n s and p r o v i o - .
[il loca ao tho Truotooo o h a l l I n t h o l r u n c o n t r o l l e d d i o o r o t i o n f r e e
timo t o t i n o t h i n k f i t .
(b) Subjaot as aforesaid tho Truotooo shall until tbo Vootlni j
Dr.y deal with »fiu lnootro of Vih Truot Fund or ao auoh thereof oa jj
i!
shall not bo paid or applied no aforuoald by ncouEulating tbo nevno 3 1
no an aoorotion to tho capital of tho Truot Fund. I
V. Xn default and cubjoot no aforooald tho'Truotooo ohall ntmia
f o i l o « I n s t r u o t o nanoly -
(c) I f THOin for ouoh; o f t b o arand-chlldrou and r o a o t o r loouo
prccont nnO futufo of Tho«no and Brld/jot Shanloy oo eholl bo
i n oxlntonoo on i h e Vootlnff Boy I f n»ro t h a n ono 00 tonanto
I n ooaoon l a e q u a l eharoo por o t l r p e e o b o o l u t o l y and o u b j a d
tboroto I ,
(b) I n t r u o t f o r thai l a o t o u r v i v o r of tbo g r a n d - c h i l d r o n and
roirotor loouo of Thoane end B r i d g e t Shanley b o r n bofore tbo
. Tootlnff Boy a b o o l u t o l y *
VI. Tho Truotoes s h a l l h a v e end nay e x e r o l o e a t t h o i r a b a o l u t
d i s o x o t l o n o t any t l n o o r t l a o e and from timo t o t l o e b e f o r e tho
Vootlns Bay p < m r t o pay o r a p p l y t h e whole o r any p a r t o r p a r t e
of tho T r u s t Fund t o o r f o r t b o advanobeent o r b e n e f i t of a l l - o r
any one or more o x o l u n i v o l y o f t h e o t h e r s o r o t h e r of t h e
Bonoflolnrioe I n ouoh a s n n o r aa- t b e f r u e t o e a s h a l l I n t b o l r
a b a o l u t e d l o o r o t l o n w i t h o u t b o l u s l i a b l e . t o account for t h o
e x o r c i s e of ouoh d l s o r o t l o n t h l n l t f i t b a t so t h a t t b e Truatooo
nay a t any t l n o a t t h e i r , a b s o l u t e d l o o r o t l o n xoleoae and extinaxiiS
• - * - . . . . • • • • • . . . - j
t b i o p r e s e n t powor i n whole o r In. p a r t .

VII. n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g any of t b e t r u o t o powers and p r o v i s i o n s
h e r e i n oontolnod t h e Truatooo e b a l l have powor a t any t i n e o r '
t i n e s before t h e Tbe t i n g -Hvyat t h e i r a b o o l u t e d l s o r o t i o n by any
<
Irrovooablo deod o r doedo and without I n f r i n g i n g t h e r u l o a g a i n a t
p o r p o t u l t i o o t o a p p o i n t t h a t t h e whole or any p a r t of t b o T r u a t
Fund s h a l l thonceforth bo b o l d upon t h a t r u o t e end w i t h and o u b j e
t o tbo powors and p r o v l a l o n a of any o t b o r S o t t l o n e n t n o t infrin^-j
In® tho r u l o of p o r p o t u l t i o o a p p l i c a b l e t o t h l a S e t t l o c a u t and
approvod by t b o Truotaoo and i n favour o r for t h o b o n o f l t of a l l
or other of tha
o r any one o r raoro e x o l u a i v o l y of t b o othoru
Appointed CSLaoa for t h o time bolng la exlotanoe or horn boronftox
and upon any puoh appointment b o l n a nado tho Truatooo ohcll
tranofor to tho truatooo for tho tiiw bains o£ tho oaid other .
Sottlonont tho proporfcy uoopriuod la the caid appoiatcant and
thereupon tho truoto horoln aoolarod oonoornlna ouoh proporty
chall occoo and dctormlm and tho oftld proporty ohall f" o1 '
I n tbo ooid o t h o r Settlomont ond bo oubjoot t o and govornod by
i
tho propor I a n o f t h i s S o t t l c a o n t o r n o t .
VIII. Kdneyo 1 l a b i a t o bo invented andor tho t r u o t o hereof any
bo Invooted i n tho purohose of or a t I n t o r o o t upon tbe c o e u r i t l o o
of ouch otooko funds ohajroo o o a u r i t l o o or o t h o r lnvootmonts of
'
whatooovor natoro and nhoroaoevor ( l n o l u d l n g the purchooo of lonoo-)
i
bold land and wbotlior o^ not for uoo 00' a reoldonoo by any p e r s o n
bonofiololly intorootod hereunder] and whothor involving l i a b i l i t y
o r not and whothor i n t b e somes of thn Trusteaa or I n tho oaoao
of nosineea o r In any o t h e r manner g i v i n g t h e Truetoes c o n t r o l of
tbo aoce or upon such p e r s o n a l c r a d l t with o r without s e o u r l t y ao
tho Sruoteca S h a l l I n t h e i r a b s o l u t e d i o o r e t i o n t h i n k f i t t o tho
l n t o n t t h a t the T r u s t e e s s h a l l have t h e oame f b l l ond u n r o o t r l o t e d
powers of lnvootoont ond of tronapoolng Invoataonte I n a l l r e o p e o t
a s a benofloinl ownor thereof 1 would have Including a l l tbo 'powora
of a b e n o f i o l a l ownor a s rogarda c h a r g i n g l e a s i n g mnagoaont nnd
othnrrleo In respeot o f any freehold o r l e a s e h o l d p r o p e r t y forming
p a r t of t h e Truat Fund AIU> i n tho profeooed exooutloa of t b o '
truoto and ponora hereof no Truatee s h a l l bo l i a b l e for any l o a e
to tbe Truet Suid a r i s i n g by roaooa of t h e f a l l u r o d e p r e c i a t i o n
or looo of any lnvootoont or Inveotaonto node In good f n l t b o r by
or InvaotKonto undo l a good f a i t h or by toaaon of any ointaho o r
reason of any Improper invootmant/oiaieoion aado o r omitted I n good
faith or for t h e negllganco o r fraud of ony servont or agont - '
•aployed by the Truetoes or by o t h o r t r u o t o o horoof (although t b e
eoployoont of ouoh oorvant o r agent *ao n o t a t r i o t l y noooaeary o r
oxiodlont) or by reason of ory othor m a t t e r o r t h i n g wbatooovor
exoopt w i l f u l frnud or oonsoiouo wrongdoing on tho port of the
Truotoo who l a aougbt t o bo made l l a b l o .
IX. without projudloo t o any potior a wbloh may bo voatod' i n tbo •
1
Truotooo by law tho Trutitoon oboli bnvo tbo following po»ora '
(b) to appropriate any property or tbo proeoodoof any projiarty
from timo to ties aubjoot to tha truota horoof in the actual
oondltion or otnto of ir.vcotcont tlicroof at tho tictt'of
appropriation in or tO'Misdo ootioraotion of any intoroct or'
olinro of any poroon intorcuU-d thoyoio n n n—
(b) To r e e c l v e a d d i t i o n a l . p r o p o r t y by g i f t o r W i l l o r by t h o
p r o v i s i o n o f any o t h e r Trunt o r Truoto o r o t h e r w i s e f r o a any
pcrnon osr poroona no o M i t i o n i t a t » 4 o Trunt ond t o b o l d t h o
ootM upon t h o t r u o t o h o r o l n o o t f o r t h and t o o d a l n l s t o r ouob
a d d l t l o n o undor t b o p r o v l o i o n o borooft
e i
( a ) With r o a p o c t t o any p r o p e r t y o o n s t i t u t i n g t h e wholo o r p a r t
of tho T r u s t Fund t o e x e r o l o e a l l povtore which any I n d i v i d u a l !
' I *
b o n o f l o l a l o w n e r i t h e r o o f slight e x o r o l s o l a r o l a t i o n t h o r o t o
i j
. w i t h o u t b e i n g l l a b l o . o r r o e t r l o t e d l a any way by t h o o f f i c e "
. o f Truoto a i n c l u d i n g ( n i t b o u t prejudice t o tbe generality
. of t h e f o r e g o i n g p o n e r ) -
. {1) Powor t o t n t v - c j o n ox l a r e e p e o t o f any ebezeo e e o u r i t i a
bonds n o t e s o r otbov e v l t o o e o f l n t o x e s t i n o r o b l l * a -
• • • | . . . . .
• ^ t l o n e of any C o r p o r a t i o n Truot A o e o o l a t i o n o r Oonoern

whether o r n o t a f f e o t l n g t b e e e o n r l t y o r -tbe a p p a r e n t
o o o u r l t y of t h e Truot Fund or t b o puroboae or s a l o o r
l e o o e of t h e n u a o t o o f any snob C o r p o r a t i o n 2 r u s t .
. A o a e o l a t l o n o r Conoorni *• - • - • > •••••
. (11) Power t o d e p o s i t any ouob s h a r e s o o u r l t i e o o r p r o p e r t i e s
• t o any v o t i n g t r u o t ot with any d e p o s i t o r y d e s i g n a t e d '
thorobyt
( l i l ) P o n o r t o g i v e p r o x i e s o r powers o f e t t o m o y w i t h o r
without powor of s u b s t i t u t i o n for v o t i n g or o o t i n s on
bobalf of t h e Truotcoa a s t b e ' o w n e r o of ony ouoh p r o p e r t y t
(d) To bold any o r a l l o o o u r l t l o o or otbov p r o p e r t y i n b a a r e r
' form i n tho nosoo of t h e Truatooo o r I n t b e nasoo of s o c a
o t h e r poroon o r p a r t n e r s h i p o r I n tho naco of a duly appointed'
boolnoo w i t h o u t d i s c l o s i n g t t a - ' V i d u o i a r y r e l a t i o n s h i p ,
( o ) To keep t h e wholQ o r any p a r t Of tbo Truot Fund w i t h i n o r '
without t h o a t a t o . i *
•4
(£) To inatituto pronoouta and dafond any cuito ox notions or
othor procoodingo affecting tho Truntoen of tbo Ti'uat ?»n(j '
to comprtoociarbitration
nattor ino any oattor of
to oouipdlfforonoo or to nub
roialoo or ooapound r.itda
ony on
oy
t o cucb |
I
.... ~ * — ....... »•• . •• .«•rtii'^îiwi
a.? ouch Truotcea upon ovldenee t h a t tho Truotesn s h a l l d e a a l
sufficient end upon such tormo and for ouch t o ram qo t h o |
Truntces o d v l s a b l o t o anlco p a r t i t i o n w i t h co-ov?nora or |
j o i n t cvnovo filth t h e Truotcao h a v i c s o n j ' i n t e r a c t i n any !
p r o p e r t i e d i a which tho T r u s t e e s o r e i n t o r e a t o d odd t o rako
such p a r t i t i o n e i t h e r by o a l e o r by Bot-off o r by a g r e e n a u t
or othcrticoj
i
( g ) To invent rofinveot and manage accumulations of income o i t h e ?
ooporntly o r togothor. w i t h o t h o r funds < ' J
( b ) To toko tho o p i n i o n o f Senior {7c-?nael p r a c t i s i n g i n t h e I
I
.Chanccxy nlda of jthe High Court ooncer&isg any d l f f o r e n c s
' . o r i s i n s under t h i s Settlomont o r on any m a t t e r to any way .
I *
r e l a t i n g t o t h e T r u s t Fund o r t o t h o i r d u t l e o I n connection
with tho T r u s t and i n a l l suob' m a t t e r s t o a o t I n aocordanoa f
. with tho opinion ' o f such Counsel's .- • •* i
(l) To dologate t o any p e r s o n or persona Cinoludirvy "a Corporat-
ion) tho oxeoution o r ' e x o r o i s e of a i l o r any t r u s t s power a
and d l o c r q t l o n s , v e s t e d i n t h e Trustooa i n r o l o t i o n t o . t h e
management or a d m i n i s t r a t i o n ' o f any' property movablo o r
Immovable* • ' T ' '
(3) To exoroieo any power'or d i s c r e t i o n vented i n tho Trustoos
notwithstanding t h a t one of t h o T r u s t e e s may be p e r s o n a l l y
. • l n t e r o o t o d i n tho exoroloo tboroof ao l o n g no tho othor
Truotooo a b o i l ba indapendont of any such l n t o r e s t . . j
(k) Tq loan monies forming p a r t of tbo Truot Fund t o any-
- . ..individual whether a bonoflalary hereunder or cot or t o any
firm or company qnd whether with or without a s e u r l t y and on
. such torma aa t o l n t o r o a t and repayment of tho oonlod do tho
Truotooo ohall think f i t ! •
( 1 ) To borrow on tho ooourlty of any p a r t of tho Truat ?und any I
monioo to be a p p l i e d f o r any purpose conîotont^vjiTh tbe i
a b j o o t a of tho T r u a t . > I
2C. Any nnd ovary Truotoo horoof v»ho nay bo a S o l i c i t o r or J
onfTigoa i n nny profeooion o r buainoaa oUoll bo o n U t l o d a R a i 0
horoby authoxiood t o r o t o i n and rooolvo out or ^luct T-ani h i J
o n V
Âi'.tnnlnnnl nnntn nnd abnrsno ' ° H Go by viay; 0 £ |f
\
rotaunerntlon f o r h n n l m o n t r n n w w t n d by h i o or h i o p a r t n e r o r
phrtnero personally o r by iria or t b o l r o l o r k a and ogonto
(Including all buel »eo of T7hntov<?r!;lnd not atriotly profession-]
ol but vtliloh al/;lit mvo been jorfornod In person by a Cruotoo
not being o oolloltor or other poroon DO aforeoaid) as oooto and
obarGea out-of-pocket an If ovoryeuch poroon oa aforaoald had
:not boon a Truotee hereof but'had boon-employed In'tho'matter of
the Sruot. * • ••'••••.
XI. Any Truotoo may o o t a e "an o f f l o o r o r employee'of any Company
tho ahoroo or dobenturoa o f w h i o h form p a r t of t h o I r u p t Fund o r
oa on o f f l o o r o r employee of any s u b s i d i a r y o r o'oeooioted ooapony
of any auoh company ond majr r e t a i n for" b i o own a b s o l u t e uoo o'nd
b e n o f l t any r o n u n o r a t i o n wblob b e nay roodivo pa auoh o f f l o o r or
ooployoo n o t w l t b o t o n d l ng t h a t any votoa o r o t h e r r i g h t o a t t o c h o d
t o nay ouoh ohoroo or d o b o n t u r o o ' nay have boon i n a t r u o e n t a l •
e i t h e r olono o r In. oonjunotbn w i t h ôther m a t t e r s o r by r e a s o n o f
t h e i r non-oxereioo I n pr'oouring o r c o n t i n u i n g for blm h i o p o a l t l o t
aa ouoh offloor. o r omplqyoe o r t b ' a t b i o q u a l i f i c a t i o n f o r any
ouob p o s i t i o n nay h o r b o a a t l t u t e d i'n'pe'rt" or"in"wfc'oIa by t h e h o l d -
i n g of any s b a r e o o r d e b e n t u r o e * ' ' . - ' • • • " • ' • ""
XII. Any o o r p o r a t i o n b e l n s a t r u o t o o " I n t h o ' d l o c h n r g o of lta
dutloo ao ouoh Truoteo oa nforooaid and- in tho exorolao of all
diogrotlonaxy. ond other povraro heroundor may act by. lto proper
o f f l o o r o r offlooro appointed I n t h a t bobalf and may employ and
pay a t tbe oxr-onae of t l o income o r o a p l t a l of t h e T r u s t ?und anjl
a g e n t i n any p a r t of t h e ' w o r l d wbetbor a S o l i c i t o r Aecountnnt
Broker or otborAgant and nhothor or not being ono of the Trusteoa
to trnnnaot any buoinooa requlrod to bo done in tbe proaisoa
(including the reeoipt ond pay sent of money and tho execution of
doounonto) ond may without bolng linblo to ocoount for any profit
wide thereby retain oa Bankero on curront' or dopooit'occounV'or ;
advance oil moneys noeoeoiry or convoniont to bo retained' or
advoncod in eonn«otloa with the 'truot preatnon ond shell be
ontlUed to bo nllor.â and paid ouob.ohargoo oxponcoo intoroot
ll
!; and ooeuiioolon It chorees it 0 ountomoro la tho ordinary course!;
.«• 4«« -4 . /*... o. rs * |L
Tiny nUovranco of oomoiooion o r - I r o k o r o s o nnd o h a l l . a l s o
^ n t i t l o a t o r o c u n o r a t l o n for I t s oorvioea on Trustco of t b e o o
prcncnto I n occorJanoo w i t h the^ s e a l s of feoo ocrooO botweon t b e
P e t t i e r ond.the Corporation*
XIII. t h o Truotooo o h a l l n o t ho bound o r r c j u i r o d t o i a q u l r o "

I i
i n t o or i n t e r f e r e w i t b t h o onnaganent o r conduct of any Cocnacy
any obnrcs o r o t h e r o o e u r i t i o o o f whioh s h a l l for t h e t l d o b a l n c
bo oooprloed I n t h o Truot Fund o r of t h o buolneoe t b o r o o f whother!
o r not t h o wholo o r a m a j o r i t y of t h o a h o r e e of euob Company o r a |
c o n t r o l l i n g i n t o r e e t t h d r o l n o h a l l be v e s t e d I n t h e Truotooo b u t
t h o T r u s t e e s s h a l l bo e n t i t l e d t o l e a v e , t b e conduct ef any such
oompary ( i n c l u d i n g t b o payment o r ,non~p9yaont ; of d i v i d e n d s ) and
the b u s i n e s s t b o r o o f wholly t o ' tbe. D i r e c t o r a of. such Coxpany and ]no |
I • ' '
bonoflo in ry s h a l l h s v s t h e r i g h t t o r o q u l r o t b a payaant o r d i o -
t r i b u t l o n of any d i v i d e n d by any ouol)6oopony o r t h o e x e r a i c o by-
t h e Trustooo of any power, t h e y may have o f oompolllng any cuoh
pay cunt o r d i s t r i b u t i o n o r t o o o a p o l o o n t r o l o r f o r b i d t h e
e x o r o i e e or t h e e x e r o l s e l a a n y p a r t i c u l a r Banner o f any v o t i n g -
r l £ > t s whioh any.bo a t a n y t i m e .voefsd i n tho..Trut>toeo. - .-
XIV. Any moneys a p p l i e d h e r e u n d e r t o o r for t b e o a l n t o n a n e e
eduoatlon s u p p o r t o r b e n e f i t o f any i n f a n t , may b s p a i d , by t b e • •
Truoteos t o t h e p a r e n t o r g u a r d i a n o r . g u a r d i a n s of ouch I n f a n t
ond tbe r e c e i p t o f a n y suoh poroon o h a l l be s ôod and o u f f l a l o n t |
diaohnrge to t h e Truotoos I n r o o p c o t of ouob monoyo and-tho
Truotooo S h a l l not bo l i a b l e t o ooo t o t b o a p p l i c a t i o n t h e r e o f .
XV. Tho T r u s t e e s s h a l l bovo power t o I n c o r p o r a t e any oospany o r
companion I n any plaoo i n t b e world a t t h e expenoo of t h o T r u s t
Fund with l i m i t od o r u n l i m i t e d l i a b i l i t y for tbo purposo of ( i n t o
n l l a ) a o q u i r l r v i the wholo o r any p o r t of tho Truot Fund and tho'
o o n a l d e r a t i o n for tho o a l o of tho Truat Fund or any p a r t t h o r e o f
t o nry oompany i n c o r p o r a t e d purouant t o t h l o crlouoo may c o n s t a t '
%
wholly or p a r t l y of f u l l y p a i d d e b e n t u r e s Dobonturo Stock o r

Eharoe or o t h e r o o o u r i t y of t h a Company wbioh nay bo eroditod a s
f u l l y paid and whleb may bo a l l o t t e d t o or o t h e r w i s e vooted i n thqj
• iwitoeo ond o h a l l bo o o p i t a l oonoyn i n t h e Truotooo , bacda. 37
1
I"' ' The Truotooo ma7 a t any timo o r t l n o o e n t e r i n t o any
-S
ootaprorlno o r nrtfbncooont with r o o p o o t t o o r t n y r o l e a c o o r
forboor
» t o onoroioe o i l o r any
« o f t h o l r r l c l i t o ob d o b e n t u r c h o l d o r®i
debenture otoak h o l d e r s o r o d l t o r a Stooldioldoro o r o h o r e h o l d o r o
of any oosrany nnrl tshethor i n oonnootlon with n oohooo of
r e c o n s t r u c t i o n or Mnalganation o r othorwiso and toy n c c o p t l a o r
towordo o a t l a f a c t i o n of o i l o r nny auoh r i g h t a ouoh c o n s i d e r a t i o n ]
*
aa tboy o h a l l I n t h o l r a b o o l u t o and u n c o n t r o l l e d dloorotlon

t h i n k . f i t nhothor I n tho f o r o o f oanh o r otoolto obaroo d e b o n t u r e e
dobonturo otock o r o b l l g n t l o n o o r s o o u r l t i e o . of t h e sano o r anjr
o t h o r company o r oonponloo w i t h o u t b e i n g I n any way l i a b l o o r -
r e s p o n s i b l e for any l o o a r o o u l t l n g from any ouob oooprooloo''' j
orrongooent rolonoo' o r forlieoranoa o r I n r o a p e o t o f a n y -
Inadequacy or a l l e g e d Inadequacy l a t b e n a t u r e o r amoant of ouob
conoldorntlon* ••
XVII. Tho Z r u e t o e e s h a l l bo o t l i b e r t y t o e x e r o l s o any powor'o
appointment glvon t o t h e * by t b l o Sottlomont and t o e x e c u t o t b e ' j
t r u o t o of t h l a S e t t l e m e n t f o r t b e b e n e f i t of a Bonofloinry n o t - |
w i t h s t a n d i n g t h a t auoh B o n o f i o l a r y i f f one of t b e Truatooo PROVIDED
t h a t ( i n oncsh ooae) t h o Truotoen l n o l n d o o t l e a a t on* p e r s o n who |
l a not a Bonoflolozy or l n e l n d e ovary bflnoflolary for tbe t l a a I
being l i v i n g ond a e o a r t a i g e d . • .•• , I
XVXXI. Th« Truotoao <|xe end s h a l l b e Truoto aa of t h e S o t t l o B o c t j
node by those p r o c e n t S j f o r a l l the. purposoo of tbo Convoyanoing 9
and Law of Proparty Aoto 1081 t o 1911 ond of tbo S e t t l e d l a n d
• !
Aoto 1882 t o 1039 ond d a o l e t r u n t o e f o r t h e t i a a being o h a l l be

i
coapotont t o o o t for o i l t b o purpoooo of t b o s o l d Acta i n c l u d i n g
t b e r o o e l p t of c a p i t a l monoy and n o t l o o s t h e r e u n d e r .
XIX. Tbo po-»or of a p p o i n t i n g now o r a d d i t i o n a l Truatooo o h a l l
be voatod In
^mvwWf/VKFWtho Truatooo PnOVXDSD JU"AV5 t h a t n e i t h e r t h o I
S e t t l o r nor any opouoo of tbo s e t t l o r o h a l l I n any c i r c u M t a n e o o
appointed to bo a t r u a t e e liov&of. Every a p p o i n t s e n t of a new
'ruotoo to c c t J o i n t l y with tho o r i g i n a l Xruotooo o b u l l ' b o
"ubjoot to tho consent of tho o r i g i n a l Tructeoo. " ' i
x x
' Tho S e t t l o r borohy dooloroa t h a t thtf Truot i s irrovooafclo. |
I t lo horoby o c r o c d and doolnred t h a t t h a Bank i o appointor
Truntee upon l t o p u b l l r h o d t o r a a - o n d o o n d i t i o n o i n c l u d i n g ponaxa
rl/rhta ond p r i v i l e g e s ojj-cclfied i n t b o G e n e r a l C o n d i t i o n s p u b l l o h
od i n t h o Suppleonnfc dotod l o t January,1263and nuoborod 9
t o the Handbook o f . t h e Bank's Sxocutor ond Truotoo Depart so n t a o
f u l l y and o o a p l e t o l y a s I f ouoh C e n t r a l C o n d i t i o n s woro b o r a i n
oot f o r t h JUIS i t 10 f u r t h e r ogreod end d o a l a r e d t h a t t h e Bank
o h a l l ho o n t l t l e d t o rooiunorntlon I n socordcnoe s i t h i t s p u b l t o h o
ooolo of foeo now I n foroe o r auoh o t h e r rooainomtion oo c a y bo
agreed upon l a w r i t i n g botnoen t b e Bank sad t b o 3 o t t l o r ,
IH WITNESS whereof tbo o s i d p a r t i o s h e r e t o hnvo duly exooutod •.
- these preeonts t h * tisy and ysor f i r s t beroinbofoxo.- . •'

written. ,. ' •
O •
nenrp ssai.bp Ann itoiykbbo ) Sicker*,. . tt
by tbe esld Monreon O'Brien v J -J^W'j.tt^ '
i n prooonoe o f i v .. . >
• yt.M'.-jr.--
• -f' V ' •i.V'vi.v-
PTOpytT when the Seal of • • N -,'-- -
K.C.Trunt was horeunto
. 1 « •*
affixed! -.'-
A•
Illl"cn?Ej)_by t h e Govano* ond V ' . ' '•'•"" ''•• ' . '

nt
-=;arxy o r tho Bonk o f "'_./ } . V
•'flnnd t n pronond^ o f '. .
• 1 :'.i:T?3
Barrack Street,
Drumshanbo,
CO. LEITRIM.
The S e c r e t a r y ,
K. C. Trust,
69/71 S t . S t e p h e n ' s Green,
DUBLIN 2.
23 April 1970.
1
• *
Dear Sir,
t^S^P* R e g a r d i n g t h e T r u s t Deed w h i c h we r e c e n t l y s i g n e d I f e e l that I should

c o n m i t t o p a p e r t h e i n t e n t i o n s w h i c h I have i n mind i n s e t t i n g up t h e
Trust.
P r i m a r i l y I i n t e n d t h a t t h e b e n e f i t s o f t h e T r u » t Fund s h o u l d go t o the
c h i l d r e n o f my b r o t h e r , M i c h a e l Shaftl«y,./trtio l i v e s i n E n g l a n d b u t I do
n o t a n t i c i p a t e t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d be a n y ' i m m e d i a t e a p p o i n t m e n t of t h e moneys '
m a k i n g up t h e T r u s t l u n d t o a n y b o d y . -'. However, I do c o n s i d e r . i t p o s s i b l e , |
although not l i k e l y , t h a t my own c h i l d r e n o r some o t h e r s , o f my nephews I
and n i e c e s m i g h t t a k e some q u i t e l i m i t e d b e n e f i t s i n t h e c a s e of emergency |
or extreme need.
Furthermore I feel t h a t i n t h e I n t e r e s t s of our family as a whole i t ' might

be d e s i r a b l e t h a t moneys may be made a v a i l a b l e e i t h e r on l o a n o r otherwise
to a s s i s t , should the.need a r i s e , t h e b u s i n e s s e s p r o m o t e d by my b r o t h e r . '
I would a l s o w i s h t h a t b e f o r e t h e t r u s t e e s t a k e any d e c i s i o n s a b o u t m a k i n g
a p p o i n t m e n t s o r l e n d i n g moneys t h e y s h o u l d t a k e t h e a d v i c e o f my b r o t h e r
M i c h a e l and I would e x p e c t chem t o a c c e p t h i s a d v i c e u n l e s s i t conflicted
w i t h t h e t e r m s o f t h e Deed. ( I w o u l d ' h a v e made him t r u s t e e i f he was living
in Ireland). I t w i l l n o t be n e c e s s a r y t o c o n s u l t me f u r t h e r and I surrender
any r i g h t t h a t I may h a v e t o c h a n g e t h e t e r m s o f t h i s l e t t e r and I instruct
y o u t o i g n o r e any s u c h r e v o c a t i o n o f > t h e i n t e n t i o n s e x p r e s s e d ' - J n t h i s letter
i
t h a t may be a t t e m p t e d by me o r on my b e h a l f . . .'
Yours faithfully,
A p p e n d i x X V (U9)(l)(i)
t
• .. >
tr* « • /
r
THE KATIIARINA "TRUSt
CONTENTS
1. ^Definitions...
2. The'Proper Jâw including Power to change such
3. Trusts for sale and investment.

4. Trusts of income and capital.
5. Powers as to payments to charities.
6. Powers of appointment and advancement.
7. Powers to esxclude and include Beneficiaries.
0. Payments for the benefit of minors.
9. General Powers of application and disposal
of Trust property and Power for Trustees
to charge fees and to pay Taxes.
10. Power to form companies and other entities.
11. Power not to interfere in management.
12. Power to make loans.
13. Powers to sell, lease and exchange-, to
vote and give proxies.
14. Powers relating to Chattels.
15. General provisions relating to the exfcrcise
. of Powers.
16. Power to vary the Powers hereunder.
17. Limitation as to exercise of Powers.
18. Appointment of. new Trustees.
19. Indemnification of retiring Trustees.
20. General Indemnity of Trustees.
21. Provisions as to disclosure of information.
22. Name
23. Power to change name.
24. Irrevocability of Settlement.
Schedules
1. Initial Settled Property.
2. First named Beneficiaries.
3. Excluded persons.
THIS S E T T L E M E N T is made the Tu30><~rr " day of
f ro-i^vC - one thousand nine .hundred and -v
B E T. W "N *,LENGSTEN^LIMITED of 3 Athol Street, Douglas, Isle of Man
(hereinafter called "ttte Settlor^)!-.of the.one part AND SOVEREIGN TRUSTEES
LIMITED of St. ûiian's Court, St. Julian's Avenue, St. Peter. Port, Guernsey
(hereinafter called "the Trustees") of the other part.
W H E R E A S die Settlor is desirous of asking such irrevocable Settlement
as is hereinafter contained:
NOW T H I S DEED W I T N E S S E T H as follows.—
1. In this Settlement wherever the context permits "the following words have
the following meanings:-
(a) "The Beneficiaries" means and includes all and any of the persons
named or described in the second schedule hereto. In determining
whether or not a person is one of the Beneficiaries an adopted or
legitimated person shall be treated as a child of his adoptive or
lcgitimative parent as the case may be and of no other person and
references to the issue of any person shall include the children
and remoter issue of such person through all degrees;
(b) "Excluded Persons" means and includes all and any of the persons
named or described in the third schedule hereto;
(c) "Charity" shall mean any trust, foundation, company or other body
(corporate or unincorporate) established exclusively for purposes
recognised as charitable by the laws of the Island of Jersey and
th» word "charitablc" shall be construed accordingly;
td) "Minor" wherever the word shall appear in this Settlement and only
so far as it shall appear shall mean any individual who has not-
attained the age of twenty-one notwithstanding that such individual
may by and in accordance with the law of his or her domicile' be of
full age, and the expression "full age" shall be construed
accordingly;
(e) "Person" includes any individual or any body of persons corporate
or unlncorporate;
(f) "The Trustees" shall mean the Trustee or Trustees for the time
beino hereof;
(g> " T r u s t Fund" means
(i) the sum of money mentioned in the first Schedule hereto;
and
and accepted by thu Trustees as additions to Uie Trust Fund
and
(iii) the investments and pioperty from time to Lime representing
sach money, invt-s. tiffed ts and additions; or Any parts thereof.
•(h) '"itii; Tr*»st." f'«rir>d" shall m-an the period from, the date hereof until
jir ••< ..! . - ' .
wliidniucr of tin.- following days shall occur first: rvant-1 y: -
(1) • the day on which!.shall expire the period of eighty years
after the execution of this Settlement;
(ii) such day (if any) as the Trustees may at their discretion
appoint by deed executed prior to the day specified in
paragraph (i) of this sub-clause;
(iii) the day of expiration of twenty-one years after the death of
che last survivor of the Beneficiaries being persons living
at. the date hereof even though such Beneficiary may not have
been a Beneficiary at the time of the execution herebf;
(i) "Property" shall mean and include any Real or Personal Property
wheresoever situate and any rights or interest legal, equitable or
otherwise in or over such property as aforesaid,
(j) words importing .the masculine gender shall include the feminine
gender. •.
(k) words i n t h e s i n g u l a r s h a l l i n c l u d e t h e p l u r a l and words i n thei
plural shall include the singular.
This Settlement is established, under and in accordance with the laws of
the Island of Guernsey and the rights of all parties and the construction
and effect of each and every provision hereof shall be subject to the
exclusive jurisdiction of and construed and regulated only according to
the laws of the said island which shall be the forum for the administra-
tion hereof save only that notwithstanding the foregoing provisions of
this clause the Trustees shall have the power at their discretion to
declare by Instrument in writing or by Deed whichever may be applicable
according to the Proper Law of this Settlement (which expression shall
moan the law of Guernsey or of such other statu or territory as may have
been from tine to time declared by the Trustees in exercise of the powers
conferred by this clause) from time to time executed within the Trust
pi-nod that this Settlement shall thenceforth Ldke effect in accordance
with the law of some other state or territory in any part of the world
(not being a pi act- under the law of which (i) any of the Trusts, Powers
ajid Provisions herein declared and contained would not be enforceable or
capable* of being exercised and so taking effect or (ii) this Settlement
v<ould In.- capable of being revoked) and the iorum of administration shall
thenceforth be t.h* Courts of that state or territory and the law of that
state or territory shall thenceforth £>e appu-cauxc w mii
•/ -id furthermore the Trustees shall have power to make such consequential
alterations or additions to this Settlement to ensure that the Trusts,
P6wers and Provisions hereof shall (mutatis mutandis) be as valid and
effective as they aie undftr the law of Guernsey which expression herein
shall. B»sHn the" law of Guernsey or of such other utato or territory as
may have been from time to time "declarf-d-by the Trustees in exercise of
the pevrfers conferred by this clause.
Tne Trustees shall stand possessed of the Trust Fund Upon Trust as to
investments or property other than money in their absolute discretion
either to permit the same to remain as invested or to sell or convert
into money all or any of such investments and Upon Trust as to money
' with the like discretion to invest the same in their names or under their
control in any of the investments hereinafter authorised with power at
the like discretion from time to time to vary or transpose any such
invssta^nts for others of a nature hereby authorised.
The Trustees shall stand possessed of the Trust Fund and shall apply the
income therefrom during the Trust Period in such manner and in such
amounts for the benefit of any one or all of the Beneficiaries as they
i.hail in their absolute discretion think fit and the Trustees without
prejudice to the foregoing provision shall have power to accumulate such
income as they see fit for the maximum period permitted by the Law of the
Island of Guernsey and any income accumulated as aforesaid shall form
part of the capital of the Trust and at the expiration of the Trust
Period UPON TRUST as to both capital and income ot the Trust Fund for
all or such one or more exclusive of the other or others of the
beneficiaries in such shares and proportions if more than one and
generally in such manner as the Trustees shall then in their absolute
discretion determine and in default of and subject to such determination
UPON TRUST in equal shares absolutely for such of the Beneficiaries as
shall then be living or existing: PROVIDED THAT no Beneficiary nor. all
ot them in combination shall have any right of any kind as against the
Trustees or the Trust Fund or any other person or body of persons by
virtue only of being Beneficiaries any rule of law, equity or otherwise
to the contrary notwithstanding. In the event of the failure or
determination of the Trusts in this clause hereinbefore contained and
subject thereto and to the provisions of these presents and to the
Powers hereby or by law conferred on the Trustees and to any and every
exercise oi such Powers and in the event of no additional Beneficiaries
heinrj appointed by the Trustees in exercise of their Powers herein
conferred prior to the expiration of the Trust Period the Trustees shall
hold t.he Trust Kund upon the following Trusts:-
r
(a) Uuririg the Trust Period as to any income of the Trust Fund accruing
1
during such period UPON TRUST to pay or apply the sajne to or for
*• . sucHT" charitable institution or institutions or other charitable
' .object or objects;,as the' Trustees shall in their absolute
discretion select and in such.proportions if more than one and
generally in such manner as the Trustees shall in their like
discretion determine;
(b) At the expiration of the Trust Period UPON TRUST as to both capital
and income of the Trust Fund for such charitable object or objects
and if more than one in such shares as the Trustees shall in their
absolute discretion determine; and
(c) In default of the exercise of any Power or discretion under this
clause and in the event of. the failure or determination of the
other Trusts hereinbefore contained UPON TRUST for the Jersey Fund
for Blind Children absolutely.
5. Notwithstanding the Trusts and Powers hereinbefore declared and contained
the Trustees shall have Power exercisable in their absolute discretion
at any time or times prior to the termination of the Trust Period to pay
or apply any part of the capital or income of the Trust Fund to or for
such charitable institution or institutions or other charitable object
or objects as the Trustees shall in their absolute discretion select and
in such proportions if more than one and generally in such manner as the
Trustees shall in their like discretion think fit and the receipt in
writing of the Treasurer or pther officer of any particular charitable-
institution authorised to give receipts for moneys paid to that
institution shall be a sufficient discharge to the Trustees for any
payment paid to such institution hereunder.
6. Notwithstanding the Trusts and provisions hereinbefore declared and
contained the Trustees may at any time or times during the Trust Period
if in their absolute discretion they shall so think fit by any
Instrument or Instruments in writing or by Deed or Deeds whichever may
be applicable according to the proper law of this Settlement revocable
during the Trust Peôd or irrevocable appoint such new or other Trusts
Powers and provisions governed by the law of any part of the world of
and concerning the Trust Fund or any part or parts thereof for the
benefit of the Beneficiaries or.any one or more of them exclusive of
the other or others at such age or time or respective ages or times
and in such shares and proportions and subject to such terms and
l i m i t a t i o n s a n d with and subject t o such powers of appointment v e s t e d
iri any p e r u o n o r p e r s o n s and s u c h p r o v i s i o n s for maintenance education
or advancement o r for a c c u m u l a t i o n of income d u r i n g m i n o r i t y o r for the
- • • •*• - — — W4. v-^.i.ui ui lui luiiviLuiu in uie
'event of desastre, insolvency or bankruptcy as may be applicable
according to the proper law of this Settlement and otherwise at the
discretion of any person or persons and with such discretionary Trusts
and Powers exercisable by such persons and generally in such manner as
tl-a 'îrustaes may think fit for the benefit of such Beneficiaries or any
one or more of them as aforesaid and. for the purpose of giving effect to
any such appointment by the same Instrument in writing or Deed whichever
may be applicable according to the proper law of this Settlement revoke
all or any of the Trusts Powers and provisions herein contained with
rcspect to the Trust Fund or the part or parts thereof to which such
appointment relates and so that in the event of any such appointment the
Trustees shall thenceforward hold the Trust Fund or the part or parts
thereof to which such appointment relates upon with and subject to the
Trusts Powers and provisions so appointed in substitution for any of the
Trusts Powers and provisions hereof so revoked as aforesaid and in
priority to the other Trusts Powers and provisions herein declared and
contained and in any appointment under the foregoing Power the Trustees
may delegate to any person or persons all or any of the Powers and
discretions by this Settlement or by law vested.in the Trustees.
Notwithstanding the Trusts, Powers and provisions herein declared and
contained the Trustees shall have the following Powers exercisable
during the Trust Period, that is to say the Power to excludc any persons
or class of persons from the class of Beneficiaries hereof and the
Power to include any persons or class of persons in the class of
Henuficlaries hereof and these Powers shall be exercisable in such a
way as to exclude a person previously included by the exercise of these
Powers or to include a person previously excluded by the exercise thereof
w i t h o u t limitation as to the number of times which a person may be so
included or excluded. Notwithstanding anything contained in this Clause
or in this Settlement, in no circumstances shall any Excluded Person be
permitted to be a Beneficiary. . •
Where the Trustees are authorised or required to pay--or apply any income
or capital of the Trust Fund to or for the benefit of any person who is
a minor the Trustees may in their absolute discretion either pay thfe
same to him or her as his or her absolute property notwithstanding that
hi: or she is a minor and the receipt of any such minor Beneficiary if
permiit«d by the proper law of .this Settlement shall be a good discharge
to the Trustees therefor or pay the same to any parent or guardian of
such miner without seeing to the application thereof and the receipt of
s»uch parent or guardian shall be sufficient discharge to the-Trustees
toi any income or capital so paid or applied.
j.^J. The T r u s t e e s s h a l l h a v e t h e f o l l o w i n g P o w e r s
1
(a) To i n v e s t o r o t h e r w i s e d i s p o s e o f o r d e a l w i t h t h e T r u s t Fund a n d
i
t o e x e r c i s e t h e i r d i s c r e t i o n o v e r t h e same a s i f t h e y w e r e absolute
. .. b e n e f i c i a l owners and t h e f o l l o w i n g c l a u s e s s h a l l n o t d e r o g a t e from
'*• • tshe g e n e r a l P o w e r s ^ c o n f e r r e d b y t h i s clause;
t (b) To u s e t h e T r u s t Fund i n any way w h a t s o e v e r a c c o r d i n g t o their
absolute d i s c r e t i o n as though, they w e r e ' a b s o l u t e b e n e f i c i a l owners
, and n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g any r u l e o f law o r e q u i t y o r o t h e r w i s e t o the
c o n t r a r y and w i t h o u t p r e j u d i c e t o t h e g e n e r a l i t y o f t h e foregoing
p r o v i s i o n s h a l l have Power t o a c q u i r e any p r o p e r t y w h a t s o e v e r even
though s u c h p r o p e r t y s h a l l y i e l d n o i n c o m e a n d e v e n though such
property be a wasting asset a n d e v e n t h o u g h s u c h , p r o p e r t y s h a l l b e
of benefit t o one or.more of t h e B e n e f i c i a r i e s hereof only to the
exclusion of t h e o t h e r B e n e f i c i a r i e s hereof:., the provisions of
this sub-clause shall apply t o any i n v e s t m e n t o r d i s p o s a l o f or
any o t h e r d e a l i n g w i t h any o f t h e T r u s t Fund a n d a n y r e s t r i c t i o n or
l i m i t a t i o n imposed by any r u l e o f law o r e q u i t y o r o t h e r w i s e shall
a c c o r d i n g l y be i n a p p l i c a b l e hereto,
(c) To b o r r o w money o r g i v e o r e n t e r i n t o g u a r a n t e e s on t h e s e c u r i t y o f .
t h e T r u s t Fund w i t h p o w e r t o c h a r g e a n y p a r t o f t h e c a p i t a l or
income
( i n c l u d i n g any f u t u r e i n c o m e ) o f t h e T r u s t Fund w i t h the
r e p a y m e n t o f any moneys s o b o r r o w e d o r g u a r a n t e e d a n d t o p a y or
a p p l y t h e money s o r a i s e d i n a n y m a n n e r i n w h i c h money f o r m i n g part
o f t h e c a p i t a l o f t h e T r u s t Fund may b e p a i d o r a p p l i e d a n d s o that
t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l h a v e ' p o w e r t o e n t e r i n t o any j o i n t borrowing
a r r a n g e m e n t s w i t h any p e r s o n and w h e t h e r o r n o t i n v o l v i n g joint
or s e v e r a l l i a b i l i t y and no p u r c h a s e r " l e n d e r o r o t h e r person
p a y i n g o r a d v a n c i n g money on a s a l e m o r t g a g e c h a r g e o r other
t r a n s a c t i o n p u r p o r t i n g t o b e made b y t h e T r u s t e e s u n d e r o r f o r any
of t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h i s S e t t l e m e n t s h a l l b e c o n c e r n e d t o s e e that
t h e money i s w a n t e d o r t h a t n o more t h a n i s w a n t e d i s r a i s e d or
o t h e r w i s e as t o t h e p r o p r i e t y o f t h e t r a n s a c t i o n o r t h e application
o f t h e money.
(d) F u r t h e r and w i t h o u t any p r e j u d i c e t o t h e g e n e r a l i t y o f t h e foregoing
provisions the Trustees s h a l l be e x p r e s s l y authorised hereby to
d e l e - g a t e any o r a l l o f their duties o r Pcwers under t h i s Settlement
t o any p e r s o n w h a t s o e v e r w i t h o u t l i a b i l i t y f o r l o s s a n d i f such
person s h a l l be a c t i n g i n the c o u r s e of h i s trade, profession or
v o c a t i o n he s h a l l be e n t i t l e d to proper remuneration out of the
T r u s t Fund.
(«_•) Any T r u s t e e h e r e o f who i s a c o r p o r a t i o n s h a l l b e e n t i t l e d t o
remuneration for a c t i n g as a T r u s t e e h e r e o f in accordance with its
*
.absence of such published scale as aforesaid shall be entitled to

reasonable remuneration for so acting and any Trustee who is a
professional person of any description shall be entitled to proper
remuneration for work, undertaken in his capacity as a professional
• r.i*rson out of the'.Trust Fund' (either capital or income) and any
Truct.ee hereof shall be entitled to proper remuneration for acting
in the ciâcity of Trustee hereof out of the Trust Fund (either1
capital or income).
(f) Hie Trustees shall have Power to pay any duties and taxes for which
they may become liable in any part of the world notwithstanding that
such liability as aforesaid may not be enforceable through the
Courts of the Island of Guernsey or of such other territory as may
have become the forum forfchnadiiU.nl strati on hereof by virtue of
r
< M:\ the exercise by the Trustees of their Powers in that regard under
clause 2 hereof.
(g) The Trustees shall not be liable in respect of any. purported exercise
of any duties or Powers under this Trust save only that if they have
acted fraudulently they shall not be entitled to the protection
conferred hereby.
(h) The Trustees may enter into any venture which they believe to be of
benefit to tho Trust notwithstanding that One or more of the Trustees
(or if a corporation any of the officers of the corporation) are
personally interested in such venture.
(i) The Trustees hereof may invest any or all of the Trust Fund in any
shares, stocks, bonds, debentures of a Con®)any in which they are
interested directly, or indirectly, or which is interested in them
! either directly or indirectly, and the Trustees may invest any or
all of the Trust Fund in any Unit or Investment Trust or Fund in
which they are interested or which is managed by them notwithstanding
any rule of law or equity or otherwise to the contrary.
Tin- Trustees are expressly authorised hereby to form any entity or
<»•• :.uciation in corpora ted or unincorporated in any part of the world for
«'»• puqjose of investment or for the purpose of carrying on trade with
t/u- Trust property and in the exercise of the foregoing power the
T* us 11.;--; shall act in such a manner as they shall see fit in their
.».'•:.,..lute discretion.
-i wi ih.ji u n d i n g any r u l e o f law o r e q u i t y o r o t h e r w i s e to the contrary
'-•'•• Tru.'Myus s h a l l n o t b e b o u n d t o c o n c e r n t h e m s e l v e s i n a n y way
••••<i:..vver i n t h e management o r c o n d u c t of t h e i n v e s t m e n t o r b u s i n e s s of
•:' i-ucli e n t i t y o r a s s o c i a t i o n a s a f o r e s a i d u n l e s s and u n t i l the Trustees
Vuivu n o t i c e o f any a c t of d i s h o n e s t y or misfeasance on t h e p a r t of
• ••>' f t Uii.- m a n a g e r s o r p e r s o n s i n c o n t r o l o f any s u c h e n t i t y or
\
a s s o c i a t i o n as a f o r e s a i d .
The Trustees shall have Power at their absolute discretion to lend the
whole or any part of the Trust Fund to any persons whether a Beneficiary
or not und^r'th.e ?*,ust-hereby declared with or without security and upon
> such*£erms as; -i-o repaypjori.t' and interest or interest frua as the Trustees
may in their diseretion ink fj;t but so that no such loan shall be made
on teirms that repayment shall be postponed beyond the Trust Period.
The Trustees shall have the following additional Powers, namely
(1) To sell lease and exchange any property which may at any time
constitute the whole or any part of the Trust Fund either at public
auction or by private treaty for such consideration and on such
terms as the Trustees deem advisable and whether for the purposes
of reinvestment distribution or division and to make sued) contracts
and enter into such undertakings relating to the Trust Fund or to
any of it as the Trustees in their uncontrolled discretion consider
advantageous to the. Trust whether or not such l e a s e s contracts or
undertakings extend or may extend beyond'the Trust Period.
(2) With respect to any property constituting the whole or part of the
Trust Fund to exercise all Powers which an individual owner might
exercise without being restricted in any way by .the; office of
Trustee including (without hereby limiting the foregoing wide Power
or any general Power herein contained):-
(a) voting upon or in respect of any shares securities bond
notes or other evidence of interest in or obligations of
any corporation trust association or concern whether or not
affecting the security or the apparent security of the Trust
property or the purchase or lease of the assets of any such
corporation trust association or concern;
(b) giving proxies or Powers of Attorney with or without Powers
of substitution for voting or acting on behalf of the
Trustees as the owners of any such property.
Whore t h e T r u s t Fund i n c l u d e s any c h a t t e l s t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l h a v e Power
t o l e n d l e t o r h i r e any of s u c h c h a t t e l s t o any p e r s o n (whether or not
being a person i n t e r e s t e d hereunder) e i t h e r g r a t u i t o u s l y or for such
c o n s i d e r a t i o n and upon s u c h t e r m s and t o r s u c h p e r i o d s a s t h e Trustees
may i n t h e i r discretion think f i t a n d w h e r e any c h a t t e l s a r e l e n t : l e t
o r h i r u d t o any o t h e r p e r s o n o r any o t h e r p e r s o n i s l a w f u l l y permitted
t o u s e and e n j o y any c h a t t e l s i n s p e c i e t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l n o t b e
r e s p o n s i b l e for any l o s s i n c u r r e d t h r o u g h any damage t o t h e same c a u s e d
by o r t h r o u g h any s a l e o r c o n v e r s i o n t h e r e o f made by s u c h p e r s o n or
o t h e r w i n e i n c u r r e d t h r o u g h any n e g l e c t o r d e f a u l t - o f such person,
(n) Thu T r u s t e e s s h a l l e x o r c i s e t h e Powers and d i s c r e t i o n s v e s t e d in
any ol the persons actually or prospectively interested under this
•Settlement and may exercise (or refrain from exercising) any Power
or discretion for the benefit of any one or more of them without
being obliged to consider the interest of the others or other.
(b) Subjectyvtb- the. .previous sub-clause every discretion vested in the
-it„'
• Trustees she'll be absolute and uncontrolled and every Power vested
in them shall be exercisable at their absolute and uncontrolled
• I"*' '
discretion and the Trustees shall have the same discretion in
deciding whether or not to exercise any such Power.
(c) No Trustee hereof or director or other officer of any corporation
which is a Trustee hereof shall be liable to account for any
remuneration or other profit received by him in consequence of his
acting as or being appointed to be a director or other officer or
servant of any company even though his appointment was procured by
an exercise by him or by the Trustees of voting rights attached to
securities in the Trust Fund or by an .abstention from exercising
such voting rights.
Ii,. The Trustees shall have Power at any time or times by Instrument or
Instruments in writing or Deed or Deeds as applicable according to the
proper law of this Settlement revocable during the Trust Period or
i rrevocable to give up or restrid: any Power hereby or by law conferred
on them notwithstanding the fiduciary nature of any such Power.
17. Despite anything contained elsewhere in this Settlement no discretion or
Power conferred by this. Instrument in writing or Deed as may be
it applicable according to the proper law of this Settlement on the Trustees
or on any person shall be exercisable after the expiration of the Trust
Period, nor shall such discretion or Power as aforesaid be exerclsetd in
any ways as to infringe any rule against perpetuities.
rs 10. (a) The Power to appoint new or additional Trustees hereof shall.vest
in the Trustees hereof provided that in the event of no Trustee
hereof remaining the aforesaid Power shall vest in the Personal
$r Representatives of the last Trustee hereof.
(b) if any Trustee hereof shall at any time desire to withdraw and be
discharged from the Trusts hereof the said Trustee may do so by
notice in writing to the remaining Trustees or if the only Trustee
hereof at the material .time is the Trustee who is desirous of
withdrawing the said Trustee shall appoint one or more additional
Trustees in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (a) of this
clause and shall then give notice to the said additional Trustee
or Trustees as aforesaid.
(c) Any Trustee hereof who desires to withdraw in accordance with the
provisions of paragraph (b) of this clause shall prior to his
discharge from zhe Trust hereof do or cause to be done all such acts
any of t h e p e r s o n s a c t u a l l y or prospectively interested under this
S e t t l e m e n t a n d may e x e r c i s e (or refrain from e x e r c i s i n g ) a n y Power
or d i s c r e t i o n for the b e n e f i t o f any one o r m o r e o f t h e m w i t h o u t
being obliged to consider the i n t e r e s t of the o t h e r s o r "other.
* ( £ ) • • S u b j e c t to* > t h e ' p r e v i o u s s u b - c l a u s e e v e r y d i s c r e t i o n vested in the

T r u s t e e s " s h a l l be a b s o l u t e and u n c o n t r o l l e d and e v e r y Power vested
ii);-"them s h a l l b e e x e r c i s a b l e a t t h e i r absolute and uncontrolled
discretion and t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l h a v e t h e same d i s c r e t i o n in
d e c i d i n g w h e t h e r o r n o t t o e x e r c i s e any s u c h P o w e r ,
(c) No T r u s t e e h e r e o f o r d i r e c t o r o r o t h e r o f f i c e r o f any corporation
which i s a T r u s t e e h e r e o f s h a l l b e l i a b l e t o a c c o u n t f o r any
remuneration or o t h e r p r o f i t r e c e i v e d by him i n c o n s e q u e n c e o f his
acting as or being appointed to be a d i r e c t o r o r o t h e r o f f i c e r or
s e r v a n t o f any, company e v e n t h o u g h h i s a p p o i n t m e n t w a s p r o c u r e d by
an e x e r c i s e by h i m o r b y t h e T r u s t e e s o f v o t i n g r i g h t s attached to
securities in t h e T r u s t Fund o r b y an a b s t e n t i o n from exercising
such v o t i n g rights.
The T r u s t e e s s h a l l h a v e P o w e r a t a n y t i m e o r t i m e s b y I n s t r u m e n t or
I n s t r u m e n t s i n w r i t i n g o r Deed o r Deeds a s a p p l i c a b l e according to the
p r o p e r law o f t h i s S e t t l e m e n t r e v o c a b l e d u r i n g t h e T r u s t P e r i o d or
i r r e v o c a b l e t o g i v e up o r r e s t r i c t any P o w e r h e r e b y o r b y l a w conferred
on them n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h e f i d u c i a r y n a t u r e o f any s u c h Power.
17. Despite anything contained elsewhere in t h i s S e t t l e m e n t no d i s c r e t i o n or
Power c o n f e r r e d b y t h i s I n s t r u m e n t i n w r i t i n g o r Deed a s may b e
a p p l i c a b l e a c c o r d i n g t o t h e p r o p e r law o f t h i s S e t t l e m e n t on t h e Trustees
o r on any p e r s o n s h a l l b e e x e r c i s a b l e a f t e r the expiration of the Trust
P e r i o d , nor s h a l l such d i s c r e t i o n o r Power as a f o r e s a i d b e e x e r c i s e d in
any ways a s t o i n f r i n g e any r u l e a g a i n s t perpetuities,
rs 111. (a) The Power t o a p p o i n t new o r a d d i t i o n a l T r u s t e e s h e r e o f shall vest
i n the T r u s t e e s h e r e o f p r o v i d e d t h a t in t h e e v e n t o f no T r u s t e e
h e r e o f r e m a i n i n g t h e a f o r e s a i d Power s h a l l v e s t i n t h e Personal
R e p r e s e n t a t i v e s of t h e l a s t T r u s t e e hereof.
0>) ) C any T r u s t e e h e r e o f s h a l l a t any t i m e d e s i r e t o w i t h d r a w and b e
d i s c h a r g e d from t h e T r u s t s h e r e o f t h e s a i d T r u s t e e may d o s o b y
notice in w r i t i n g t o t h e remaining T r u s t e e s o r i f the only Trustee
h e r e o f a t t h e i i a t e r i a l t i m e i s t h e T r u s t e e who i s d e s i r o u s of
withdrawing the s a i d T r u s t e e s h a l l a p p o i n t one o r more additional
Trustees i n accordance w i t h the p r o v i s i o n s of p a r a g r a p h (a) of this
c l a u s e and s h a l l t h e n g i v e n o t i c e t o t h e s a i d a d d i t i o n a l Trustee
or Trustees as a f o r e s a i d .
Any T r u s t e e h e r e o f who d e s i r e s t o withdraw in accordance with the
provisions of paragraph (b) o f t h i s c l a u s e s h a l l p r i o r t o his
• i i -.. SA
and d e e d s as a r e necessary for the proper v e s t i n g of the T r u s t Fund
i n t h e c o n t i n u i n g o r new o r a d d i t i o n a l Trustees a s t h e c a s e may be.
(d) All such a c t s and deeds as a f o r e s a i d s h a l l b e done a t the expense
of t h e i n c o m e o r c a p i t a l of t h e T r u s t Fund PROVIDED THAT a n outgoing
• Trustee-who'is liable as a Trustee hereof o r who may a t the death of
- any p e r s o n b e l i a b l e as a former T r u s t e e h e r e o f for any t a x e s which
y i n a y b e i m p o s e d b y t h e P r o p e r Law o r e l s e w h e r e s h a l l n o t b e b o u n d to
transfer t h e T r u s t Fund u n l e s s r e a s o n a b l e security is provided for
indemnifying such outgoing Trustee a g a i n s t such liability.
(e) On e v e r y c h a n g e i n t h e T r u s t e e s h i p a memorandum s h a l l b e endorsed
on o r p e r m a n e n t l y annexed t o t h i s S e t t l e m e n t s t a t i n g t h e names of
the T r u s t e e s for t h e t i m e b e i n g and s h a l l b e s i g h e d b y t h e persons
s o named a n d a n y p e r s o n d e a l i n g w i t h t h e S e t t l e m e n t s h a l l be
entitled to rely u p o n s u c h memorandum ( o r t h e l a t e s t of such
memoranda i f more t h a n one) as- s u f f i c i e n t evidence t h a t the Trustees
named t h e r e i n are the duly c o n s t i t u t e d Trustees' for the time being
hereof.
(f) In the e v e n t of no p e r s o n e n t i t l e d under the foregoing paragraphs of
t h i s c l a u s e a p p o i n t i n g a new T r u s t e e h e r e o f w i t h i n o n e m o n t h o f the
last Trustee hereof ceasing to be a Trustee t h e Power t o a p p o i n t one
o r more new T r u s t e e s o f t h e S e t t l e m e n t s h a l l v e s t i n the most senior
p r a c t i s i n g Advocate for the time being of t h e Guernsey Bar.
It a T r u s t e e r e t i r e s from t h e T r u s t h e r e o f o r becomes by r e a s o n of
residence or p l a c e of i n c o r p o r a t i o n incapable of a c t i n g as a Trustee
hereof such T r u s t e e s h a l l be r e l c n s e d i p s o f a c t o from a l l claims
demands a c t i o n s p r o c e e d i n g s a n d a c c o u n t s o f a n y k i n d o n t h e p a r t o f any
porson (whether i n e x i s t e n c e o r not) actually or prospectively interested
under t h e S e t t l e m e n t f o r o r i n r e s p e c t o f t h e T r u s t Fund o r t h e i n c o m e of
tin- T r u s t F u n d o r t h e T r u s t s o f t h i s S e t t l e m e n t o r a n a c t o r t h i n g done
ut o m i t t e d i n e x e c u t i o n o r p u r p o r t e d e x e c u t i o n o f s u c h T r u s t s o t h e r than
and e x c e p t o n l y actions
()) a r i s i n g from any f r a u d o r f r a u d u l e n t b r e a c h o f T r u s t i n Which such
Trustee (or i n t h e case of a c o r p o r a t e T r u s t e e any o f i t s officers)
was a p a r t y o r o f w h i c h s u c h T r u s t e e h a d k n o w l e d g e ; . .
(-') ro recover from s u c h T r u s t e e T r u s t p r o p e r t y or the proceeds of Trust
p r o p e r t y i n t h e p o s s e s s i o n of such T r u s t e e (or in the case of a
corporate Trustee any o f i t s o f f i c e r s ) and c o n v e r t e d t o h i s use.
J ii t h e e x e c u t i o n o f t h e T r u s t s and Powers h e r e o f no T r u s t e e s h a l l be
l i . i M o f o r any l o s s t o t h e T r u s t Fund a r i s i n g in consequence of the
lailure depreciation or l o s s o f any i n v e s t m e n t made i n g o o d f a i t h o r by
r.Mson o f any a c t o r o m i s s i o n made i n g o o d f a i t h o r of any o t h e r matter
or t h i n g e x c e p t w i l f u l and i n d i v i d u a l fraud arid w r o n g d o i n g on t h e p a r t of
r*
Jl. flit Trusu-ui. i.hulJ not except utidur compulsion of low of the Island of
Guernsey ox of the I 'rope* Law defined In .clause 2 hereof, divulge or
disc-Jose directly or indirectly to any tax or fiscal'authority any
.i.nforiiwtiOn relnUji^ to the. Trust Fund or the Trust Deed or to the
assets or the helie/icJaries thereof except Uiot relating to this clause
a^d'to the third schedule.
, i 22. This Settlement shall be known ax «>o Katharina Trust.
• i
23. The name of this Settlement may be changud by the Trustees at their
discretion to such other name or names as they consider fit. A
memorandum recording each and every change of name .shall be affixed to
the original trust deed.
24. This Settlement shall be irrevocable.
mi! FIRST SCHEDULE
£10 (Ten pounds)
SECOND SCHEDULE .
Jersey Fund for Blind Children

Jersey Oxfam Group
Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust
THIRD SCHEDULE
1. The Settlor
2. Any person who is or is treated
as resident in the Island of
Guernsey for the purposes of
taxation in that Island
t IN wjTNfcSS WHEREOF the parties hereto have hereunto set their hands and
seals the date and year first above written.
THE COMMON SEAL of J •TV,

LENGSTEN LIMITED
was hereunto affixed
/
in the presence of:-
TKE COMMON SEAL of

SOVEREIGN TRUSTEES LIMITED
was hereunto affixed
in the presence of:-
L
DEEP OF APPOINTMENT AND RETIREMENT

2; IT i s hereby agreed and d e c l a r e d t h a t
the property comprised i n t h e T r u s t
Fund s h a l l as and from .the d a t e hereof
v e s t in the New T r u s t e e In the p l a c e of
the R e t i r i n g T r u s t e e for a l l the e s t a t e
or i n t e r e s t t h e r e i n then s u b j e c t t o t h e
t r u s t s of the S e t t l e m e n t and the
R e t i r i n g T r u s t e e and t h e New T r u s t e e
w i l l promptly do o r cause t o be executed
a l l m a t t e r s t h i n g s deeds and documents
( i f any) for completing the t r a n s f e r o f
the s a i d property i n t o the name o f the
New Tvustee a c c o r d i n g t o the n a t u r e
. t h e r e o f t o the i n t e n t t h a t t h e s a i d
property s h a l l henceforth be h e l d by
the New T r u s t e e upon the t r u s t s and
with and s u b j e c t t o the powers and
p r o v i s i o n s i n the S e t t l e m e n t c o n t a i n e d .
3. THE New T r u s t e e hereby r e l e a s e s * a n d

d i s c h a r g e s the R e t i r i n g T r u s t e e .from
a c t i o n s p r o c e e d i n g s accounts claims
and demands for o r in r e s p e c t of any
a c t or thing done p e r m i t t e d o r s u f f e r e d
. by the R e t i r i n g T r u s t e e i n o r about the
execution o f the t r u s t s .of-.the S e t t l e m e n t
or for or in r e s p e c t o f any o t h e r thing
in any way r e l a t i n g to the p r e m i s e s .
IN WITNESS whereof the p a r t i e s h e r e t o .have caused

t h e i r Common S e a l s t o be a f f i x e d the day and y e a r
f i r s t above w r i t t e n .
Cash £10 (ten pounds)
THE COMMON SEAL of

SOVEREIGN TRUSTEES
LIMITED was hereunto
affixed in the presence
of:
THE COMMON SEAL of

COLLEGE TRUSTEES
LIMITED was hereunto
affixed in the presence
of
THIS DEED o r APPOINTMENT is made t h e 2ff day of C^^fYiQ. .
One thousand nine hundred and eighty-eight BY CQMJBGB TRPSTEES LIMITED, of

P l a t e a u M i g n o t , Rue d a s C o r n e t s , Saint Peter Port, i n the I s l a n d of Guernsey
(hereinafter called "the Trustees")
SUPPLEMENTAL t Q : ~
(1) A settlement (hereinafter called "the Settlement") dated the 12th day
of October, 1977 and made between Lengsten Limited of the one part and
Sovereign Trustees Limited of the other part; and
(ii) A Deed of Appointment of New Trustees dated the 12th day of Jrfnuary,
1978 and made between the said Sovereign Trustees Limited of the one
part and the Trustees of the other part.
WHEREAS:
(A) u n d e r a n d by v i r t u e o f t h e s a i d Deed o f A p p o i n t m e n t t h e T r u s t e e s became
a n d now a r e t h e T r u s t e e s o f t h e S e t t l e m e n t . v
(B) under Clause 7 of the Settlement the Trustees thereof are-'empowered to

include any person or class or persons in the class of beneficiaries
thereof and are presently desirous of making such appointment
thereunder as hereinafter appears.
(C) By virtue nt Clause 1 (a) of the Settlement the details of the
beneficiaries thereunder are set but in the Second Schedule thereto.
NOW THIS DEED WITNESSETH a n d i t i s h e r e b y declared:-
(1) That by virtue of the power and powers contained in the said Clause 7
of the Settlement and all and any other powers them hereunto enabling
the Trustees hereby declare that the children and more remote issue of
Hazel Grace Newman of Tingrith Manor, Tingrith, Milton Keynes,
Bedfordshire, England now in existence or born hereafter before
determination of the Trust Period shall be the sole class of
. b*n*ficiaries thereunder as if the same were specifically and solely
mentioned in the Second Schedule thereto to the intent that the class
' or classes of beneficiaries as heretofore specified in the Second
Schedule thereto shall be excluded and shall b« henceforth substituted
by the said new provision.
(2) The Trustees hereby confirm and declare that, as soon as this Deed has
been executed they will endorse upon the Settlement the details of the
above class of new beneficiaries.
rw WITNESS WHBRBOr College Trustees Limited has caused its Common Seal to be
hereunto affixed this day" and year first above written. ..
• • . • • *•. '
—izvcir^
m?
T
THIS DEED OF APPOINTMENT is made the day of

;ne thousand nine hundred and eighty-seven BY COLLEGE TRUSTEES LIMITED, of
" fir'
PJ^fcû Mignot, Rue des Cornets, Saint Peter, in the Island of Guernsey
{hereinafter called "the Trustees")
ti
SUPPLEMENTAL tor-
(i) A Settlement (hereinafter called-"the Settlement") dated the 12th day
of October, 1977 and made between Lengsten Limited of the one part
and Sovereign Trustees Limited of the other part; and
(ii) A Deed of Appointment of New Trustees dated the 12th day of January
^ J^ffe 1978 and made between the said Sovereign Trustees Limited of the one
^ part and the Trustees of the other part.
- « WHEREAS:
r
'auj asf (A) Under and by virtue of the said Deed of Appointment the Trustees
became and now are the Trustees of the Settlement.
(B) Under Clause 7 of the Settlement the Trustees thereof are. empowered , to
include any person or class or persons in the class of beneficiaries
thereof and are presently desirous of making such appointment
thereunder as hereinafter appears.
(C) By Virtue of Clause 1(a) of the Settlement the details of the
^ beneficiaries thereunder- are.set out in the Second Schedule thereto.
: /i NOW THIS PEED WITNESSETH and it is hereby declared :-
(1) That by virtue of the power and powers contained in the said Clause 7
of the Settlement and all and any other powers them hereunto enabling
the Trustees hereby declare that the children and more remote issue of
sLtU er^-'n ^f^k- ^ C w r f _ VJlU/- HjUyv-i-. hitllwôU^-
^ 'ar Hazel Grace Newman mow irr existence or born hereafter before the J Â {
STtXh. auUIM
.StrA^" termination of the Trust Period shall be included among the class of
" beneficiaries thereunder as if the same were specifically mentioned in
the Second Schedule thereto. -
(2) The Trustees hereby confirm and'.declare? ^shat, as. spon as this Deed has
been executed, they will endorse upon the S«&tlement.fthe details of
7
• - .. V
the above class of new beneficiaries.

IN WITNESS WHKRKQy the Trustees hereto have executed this Deed the day and
THE COMMON SEAL of
COLLEGE TRUSTEES LIMITED
w»%)ter«unto affixed i n
tht^presence of:-
Appendix XV (119) (1) (j)
SMITH FOY & PARTNERS
SOLICITORS
FiTZWILLlAMSQUARli. m/HLlN^. Telephone: 760531 (6 lines). 762764.762765.767048.767065. out- BOXMo.
:' T«l« No. 9JK«6
Hcl ' Yiiur Kd.
TKS/AK
Dictated: 21st January 1987

22nd January 1987
Dear Michael,
Re: The Katharina Trust
further to our telephone conversation to-day I confirm that Z spoke with

Mr B.R. Ellis of College Trustees Limited on the telephone yesterday
and as a result of our conversation I have to-day written to him as per
copy enclosed herewith.
I note from my telephone conversation with you to-day that you would
prefer to have the beneficiaries of the Katharina Trust defined in the
trust deed as "the children and more remote issue of Ha?el Grace Newman
now-in existence or born hereafter". You will note my comments to Mr '
Ellis in relation to the legality or otherwise of using your wife's
maiden name.
I will write you further as soon as I hear from Mr Ellis.
Yours sincerely,
T.K. SMITH
Mr Michael J. Shanley
50 Reginald Street
Luton .
Beds.
England.
8 O
M -V !-.« «. < t-.i;..r>> lt.t'.l. . .1 i . U.lv I U ' 1 . R. ' " "
Appendix XV (119) (1) (k)
SOLICITORS
59 FfTZWlLLIAM SQUARE, DUBLIN 2. Telephone: 760531 (6 lines), 762764,762765.767048.767065. DDK BOX 2-w.
"w Telex No. 91886
• lurKil. TKS/KA Your Kef. MJS/PQ/Plain
18th February 1986.
Dear M i c h a e l ,
Re: Katherina Trust.
I have your letter dated 6th February 1986 and now send you copy of further
letter which I have today written to Sean Mooney.
I received a letter from Gary Britton of S.E.C. dated 11th February 1986
enclosing the amended accounts for Maybach Investment Coupany Limited for
the years ended 31st October 1983 and 31st October 1984. Before signing same
I would Ilk* to nave confirmation from you that you have been furnished with
copies of the amended accounts for the said years sad tbat you are satisfied
with same.
Whilst Mr. Britton has requested that I should tigs the accounts and return
then to him forthwith I would prefer to await your next visit to Ireland and
to sign them in your presence. I note from the accounts th*t Denis O'Do no van
was Secretary of the Company for the year ended 31/10/1984. You will require
a change in tbat position If not already implemented.
Yours sincerely,
_JULL.
T.K. SMIO
Mr. M.J. Shanley,

50 Reginald Street,
Luton,
Beds.,
England.
M.A.I.iv. ti. I' iMiuriv H.C I. . I (i. Oul) U.C.I .. I< A. lj..l|.'Kl> II.C I.
L'niiMili.im I k Smith II.C I... I.I..II. "7 A.
Appendix XV (119) (1) (I)
I
TK3/AX
3«»r :rr 2lii«,

r-5"
Our c!:2r:s: :. "turtsM "'"-i 1:
r r»»f-sr :
it?1.: t>2
iMj sf '.sMinw.: i»i in -v c-n
of ?::•:.•«:»»» -taci-i .:.tvj«?v i"". \.v* ji
hoc': ijcmr-.r? "."•>* i::c»?ct'm oi z'-t .i» .••< eha
*3:h ;«>!J7 1 • ~ * j.i' " -wiilJ '.•» obIL it «/«b '.«ouZ! -i
cos? of 3-iii
r
'ty ira "it' r" tl<Jy is? c'vi in t -.Tin
of 74r-ioni m ii'i-.it; ;rusr. The : "r:;-: »' cu-.!i; •':?
truj: Ji irrz c.vt zmziti of c'»« '-'aur%«n I'-.rirfii j-s1---^s-i-
r«j*c":'.«»-i it :t-ljc or. thi XieJ-f rir.i ct'-jv. 1-. "a;' vni
-i i : :'-.j ;\.-s s a i i r*"»*cela.-v->s .:>.a<: :"•.«» I'+fici-ir'.m
Othicira 1 - i . i i * m l c i i --ic s rhi t « ( . J i : i u , i i . i .*? 7>.i
"aura*-. ^'.Jriir — » r t . r>.j S < * r . « £ L c i n mi ' i f l - n ' •:"••» "a-ir-esn
0'jri»n .lacclj-ar.-. in » fa'.'.ovj
"T;* »r.! r.ors sstjCZq ijjua i J "*---•< i •-•» "rii.-i:
•".iinls;' ir. »••£:-.arc<" ?r ^ n ^r*afear".
'n '?" :r—.r!:: :-.r2« r.iraJ :h.tririi-.;. "vr • i:

r.,j'j :-^ : .V -irîjir/ JC4M nurjy.-.r.: :
a r m :» JA--; •uc • i.:i
'si! zz rsiJ
•ri: s
'tarûfrtr".
t Crie* jpoujd csf 'fi ihssl '. i". "» co
avoi-j eh« usa of •:'.'! - ir* in !-sj-•* -.as
snij in chi3 r<!»ir I ••;•» -it/.c hir.Jly -n -ivi •.*••- -.'-j liraii?:*
of
ji -ifir.T n<»rjsni-.i.»;.--<i r»-ii.Un r.Mra'tn
i..i»n n»ra in cn*
Ch* .;
.;
jj
nn
cc»-:»<
::
<: iri.- —•nr. ..j
4<comi scha.luZa of I'aji. If you cr your la^sl acfviiar - '--*n r..
'* •»t,'jti
ihir-'.ty'a .-i«rri*d suae ch-n *as« will
"Vt-
Ija-k forvir-i z* .icîvvr.j a drafc of cha {oemmnc vh£you oroscta
having ligsai by '"•olla** XruJCati Li««ic«a to ah.o^* ?repo*«d
change. • \ ^ '
I
•* .V *:
Mr Shanl«7 would U't« Co lodfte wieh you a U t t e r of intention in retard
co Che proporciona in which he would like n«Md beneficiaries Co benefit
uade^the crusc ar.d fron citw Co tine he cay vish to arend :ha jai«J lecsar.
ft- you have an outstanding invoice in reflect of Che *r.=usl ?3« ttmM-5
by the settler kindly furnish sane eo ua tad w« will have it accent. co H7
our clients.
Yours tiRCftrt!;',.
•/ -w—J
"iii 1
7ru«i3i- lirriri.!
?..'. :es I?.3
Tlstrt IU '.imot
3s;* Ccr^rtcs
St Ttiar ?ir:
"iu«n3«7
Cy, ir.r.i I IJI ;;, '
C.C. M.J. Shanlay

48/50 Reginald S t r e e t
Luton
Beds
Smith,.. foy and Partners .

Solicitors* "" ...
59 Jfitzwilliam Square
-Dublin
c,lre ' 5th February 1987
fie: The iiatharlna 'Jruat
Our c l i e n t s : ttichael J . ahanley and Maureen O'-orien
Dear. Kevin,
ThanJtyou for your letter of the 26th January 1907 regarding the above
t r u s t and, thankyou for sending me:
1) A copy ox' the l e t t e r you sent to College i'rusteee Ltd.
2) Copy of Vrust Joeument between 3.K.C. and the governor
and company of the .bank of Ireland document dated
8th Kay 1 9 7 ^ ^
3) Deed of appointment and KetiraaafitJ'JPhe *>atharina 'x'rust
dated 12th January 1978.
I believe we are on the r i g h t l i n e s here and, i t i s a p p r e c i a t e d t h a t
you are now t i d y i n g t h i s up and, keep I t going a t a l l c o a * s u n t i l
t n i s new Deed or appointment i s t d t a l l y s i g n e d , sealed and d e l i v e r e d .
Recently I have been sent an invoice from College Trustees Ltd. in
the sum of ^500 for the year 1 s t October 1986 to 30th September 1987.
S h i s was sent to Kennedy Crawley and Company on 25th November 1986
and, i t j u s t has syphoned through to me. i am sending t h i s onto
Pat GuAAaan to pay immediately.
x'nankyuu f o r your a t t e n t i o n .
\
Yours f a i t h f u l l y
M. J . Shanley
Appendix XV (119) (l)(n)
\

SOLICITORS
59 F1TZWILLIAN. SQUARE. DUBLIN 2. Telephone: 760531 (6 lines), 762764.762765.767048.767065. OUE BOX Mo.
Telex No. 91886
Oui k.i TKS/MA v , , u ' Rel - MJS/PQ/Plain
3rd February 1986.
Dear Mr. Shanley,
Re: The Katherina Trust.
This will acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 29th January 1986 addressed
m
to myself and Sean Mooney.
Like yourself I was not famlliary'with the ramifications of The Katherina
Trust or it's predecessors.
I am quite happy to draw up whatever legal documentation is required to bring
the legal position in relation to the Trusts up to date.
At the last meeting which we had with Sean Mooney we had a general discussion
in relation to the Trust and in particular to it's proposed connection with the
business projects with which you have been Involved in recent years. You
indicated that you would prefer to have your Coollattin project divorced from
the Trust and consequently you indicated to Sean Mooney that the Coollattin
Companies should not be subsidiaries of Maybach Investment Company Limited.
It appeared from our examination of The Katherina. Trust at that meeting that
• the only document which was required to record the present day position in
relation to the Trust was a written acknowledgement from the Trustees of the
earlier Trust (Maureen O'Brien Settlement) acknowledging that the Trust Fund
(viz the issued share capital of Maybach) is presently beneficially owned by
the Trustees of The Katherina Trust.
At the said meeting it was indicated that the Trusts had originally been set
up on the advice of Mr. Don Reid of S.K.C. I presume that he would be the best
person to unravel the present Trust position and to advise as to what legal
documentation, if any, Is required to regularise the up to date position of the
Trusts.
I enclose copy of letter which I have today written to Sean Mooney in the matter.
With regard to the reference in the last paragraph of your letter to your hoping
not to have to remind either myself or Mr. Mooney again about the position I
must await further instructions from yourself and Mr. Mooney before drawing up
the necessary legal documentation.
Mr. M.J. Shanley,
50 Reginald Street,
Luton,.
• Beds," ,„•• '
T.TC. SMITH, England'. '<
SMITH FOY t PARTNERS. c.c. Sean Mooney S.K.C.
M A I• I .»y;im II .( .1.II i. I >;•!> H.C I K. A. (jull'tjilv H.C* 1.
k . S I I I H I I II ( ' I . I.I U
i l HtMlll.l H I I
Appendix XV (119) (1) (o)
« , J» ' »
r-
iPf SMITH FOY & PARTNERS
ryy. SOLICITORS
• A m SQUARE, DUBLIN 2. Telephone: 760531(6 lines), 762764,762765,767048,767065. ODE BOX 2-w.
Our R«r. TKS/MA. Your Kef.
22nd November, 1982.
Dear Sean,
Michael J . Shanley.
Maureen O'Brien Settlement.
The Katharina Trust.
I refer to the meeting which took place at your office an the 5th November
1982 attended by myself and Michael Shanley at which we had a further
discussion regarding the above matters.
I have examined the contents of the copy Deeds setting up the above two
Trusts. The documents in question merely set up the rules for the
operation of the Trusts but they do not give any information as to the
actual ownership or movement of funds within the said Trusts. I t would
appear from the verbal information which- you have given to us that the
original finds from the sale of property in Raheny was put into the Maureen
O'Brien and subsequently lent by that Trust to a Cayman Island Ccnpany called
Keeladrum which maintained the finds on deposit In the Cayman Islands and
the said funds were used to obtain loans on a back to back basis for Killiney-
Management Limited. The Trust Fund then appeared to.have been transferred
from the Maureen O'Brien Settlement to the Katharina Trust which was set up
in Guernsey in 1977 and the Katharina Settlement formed a new Company in
Ireland called Maybach Investment Conpany Limited and lent the Trust Funds
to i t for investment in Irish properties. We note that a l l the issued share
capital in Maybach i s held toy the Katharina Trust. I gathered from you that
the sole, trustee of the"Maureen O'Brien Settlement at this stage i s K.A.
Lawless and the trustee of the Katharina Trust i s College Trustees Limited.
The latter Coitpary i s , I understand, a Guernsey Ccmpany set up by Guinness &
Mahcn Limited.
Mr. Shanley expressed a preference for having the trustee of the Katharina
Trust changed from the Guernsey Ccnpany to. your firm's Trustee Company.
It would be helpful i f you could confirm the above information to us for
record purposes and at the same time procure copies of the relevant Minutes
or notes maintained by the Trustees of both Settlements relative to the
various activities of the Trusts and the movements of funds therein. I
would like to have more clear information as to the exact relationship
between the Maureen O'Brien Trust and the Katharina Trust. There i s power
in the Settlement setting up the Maureen O'Brien Trust for the Trustees '.'to
appoint that the whole or any part of the Trust Fund be held upon the Trusts
and with and subject to the powers and provisions of any other Settlement etc"
(Clause v i i of the Settlement Deed). . A copy of the appointment • made by the
Trustees of the Maureen O'Brien Settlement whereby the Trust Fund was transferred
to the Katharina Trust should be available as'ialso should the documentation
which relates to the ownership in the Shares iri NJaybach' by the .Katharina Trust.
• .. •• -v -
M. A. Foy. C. C. Fogany B.C.L.. J. O. Daly 8.C.L.."%R. ArCollogly B.6.L.
l~niuul»ni T. K. Smith B.C.L.. LL.B.
ft. M. Mania B.C.L.. W. J. Keane B.C.L., P. J. Cujack B.C.L.
* Vv""'-" * "
. .T
juid also be interested to know whether any docunent exists which more
early defines for the Trustees the identity of the beneficiaries of the
athaîna Trust.
Perhaps you would look into the above matters and procure the necessar details "
for me so that the way may be made clear for the proposed change of Trustee
of both Settlements.
Mr. Sesn Mooney A.C.A.

Stokes Kennedy Crowley & Co.,
Chartered Accountants,
HarcourtriHouse,
Harcourt Street,
Dublin 2.
.. c.c. "M.J. Shanley.

Appendix XV (119) ( l ) ( p )
* 1 i/kr-ic « »
Appendix XV (119) (l)(q)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. THOMAS KEVIN SMITH
UNDER OATH
ON, 27TH SEPTEMBER 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. T.K. SMITH

1 THE HEARING COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON 27TH SEPTEMBER
2 2000
4 MR. SMITH: Is it possible I could
5 move up near you. It
6 would look more like an interview than
7 a...(INTERJECTION)
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you don't mind
9 staying there Mr. Smith
10 because the stenographer has to hear it.
11 MR. SMITH: I see. It just looks a
12 bit confrontational the
13 position I am in down here.
14 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Well, if you don't mind?
15 MR. SMITH: That's fine, that's okay,
16 no, I thought it was a
17 friendly interview.
18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It's an interview and
19 I will just explain it
20 now, Mr. Smith. We will start our interview. As
21 you know my name is Declan Costello and on my right
22 is Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan. As you
23 know we have been appointed by the High Court to
24 conduct this investigation and this is an inquiry,
25 so, we would be under oath, as you know and we are
26 anxious, the matters in which we have indicated our
27 interest have been set out in our letter to you and
28 what I propose would be that Mr. Rowan would ask you
29 some questions first. Perhaps if I ask our
3
1 solicitor to administer the oath to you first.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
4
1 MR. THOMAS KEVIN SMITH, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS
2 INTERVIEWED AS FOLLOWS:
3 MR. ROWAN: Good morning Mr. Smith.
4 MR. SMITH: Good morning Mr. Rowan.
5 1 Q. First of all thank you very much for letting us have
6 your statement that was very helpful. Have you got
7 it to hand?
8 A. I have, yes.
9 2 Q. Perhaps we could refer to it (Exhibit 1)?
10 A. My statement being my letter of the 25th of July
11 2000, is that correct?
12 3 Q. That is correct.
13 A. Yes, I have that with me.
14 4 Q. Perhaps you might start generally, Mr. Smith, by
15 telling us how long your firm has acted for
16 Mr. Shanley and for Maybach?
17 A. Well, for Mr. Shanley I would say that I met him
18 some time towards the late 60's. A firm of
19 solicitors, other that ours were acting for him at
20 that particular time. He was introduced to me by a
21 man called Michael Liddy, who is a cousin of mine
22 and over the subsequent years, probably late 60's
23 early 70's, we would have done some work but not
24 anything major for Mr. Shanley. His own solicitors
25 handled -- he did some building work here through a
26 company or he was involved with a company in
27 building and ultimately we got the major part of his
28 work, which would be towards the end of the 70's
29 probably.
1 5 Q. So, you would have acted for Mr. Shanley in terms of
2 his corporate activities?
3 A. Well, Mr. Shanley is a man from Leitrim and
4 corporate activities is probably a very fancy word
5 for him. Mr. Shanley left Ireland when he was 15
6 and he would have come over -- I suppose corporate
7 in the sense that he was involved in -- he had
8 companies mostly, well, we did personal work for him
9 as well.
10 6 Q. Just dealing with corporate activities, what I was
11 intending to mean from that was company work, buying
12 and selling property?
13 A. Well, more conveyancing than company, we wouldn't be
14 into company work as such, our firm would be more in
15 conveyancing, licensing.
16 7 Q. But you then said that you also acted for him in his
17 personal affairs?
18 A. Well, again my difficulty here as a solicitor is
19 that I would prefer to discuss matters just relevant
20 to your company rather than relevant to a client
21 over a number of years. It is going on record and
22 it is sworn, I would be loathe to be saying the type
23 of things -- but I did, yes, I would consider him a
24 friend of mine apart from a client.
25 8 Q. Then turning to your statement, the first page of
26 your statement, where at point number (c) you talk
27 about the Katharina Trust (Exhibit 1)?
28 A. Correct.
29 9 Q. Which you say was set up in the Channel Islands
6
1 circa 1977?
2 A. Your question, if you would read your questions to
3 me first you would see the context of my answer.
4 Your question was...(INTERJECTION).
5 10 Q. I am just asking you really to confirm what you are
6 saying in your statement which is that "The
7 Katharina Trust was set up in the Channel Islands
8 circa 1977."
9 A. Correct.
10 11 Q. And that "the initial trustee was Sovereign
11 Trustees"?
12 A. Correct.
13 12 Q. And "they were subsequently replaced in 1978 by
14 College Trustees Limited"?
15 A. Correct.
16 13 Q. Then if you go over the page, Mr. Smith, you say
17 that your "understanding is that the ultimate object
18 of the Katharina Trust was to benefit the Shanley
19 children"?
20 A. I said that my understanding was that the ultimate
21 object, that was my understanding.
22 14 Q. How many children does Mr. Shanley have?
23 A. Well, he had one girl who unfortunately was killed
24 in a motor accident but to my knowledge he would
25 have -- again I may not be totally accurate on this
26 but I would say that he has five surviving children.
27 15 Q. Are they boys or girls?
28 A. He has two boys to my knowledge but again I wouldn't
29 be -- as I say I am a friend of Mr. Shanley's -- I
7
1 wouldn't be a visitor to his house and I wouldn't be
2 -- well I would not say friendly terms -- but I
3 wouldn't be in close communication with his family.
4 16 Q. You said...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. I can find out for you exactly the names, I am sure
6 there is no problem in Mr. Shanley supplying the
7 names of this children.
8 17 Q. That would be helpful, please, if you would do that?
9 A. Yes. He has a son a barrister his older son is a
10 barrister and to my knowledge he has another son and
11 he would have at least two daughters apart from the
12 girl that was killed in the accident.
13 18 Q. The creation of the Katharina Trust, did you advise
14 on that in any way?
15 A. No.
16 19 Q. Have you any knowledge as to who did advise
17 Mr. Shanley on the creation of that trust?
18 A. I wouldn't have any direct -- most of the knowledge
19 I have of the two trusts, the Maureen O'Brien Trust
20 and the Katharina Trust, would have come from
21 research I would have done from late in 1982
22 onwards. I would have sought documentation from
23 people. Stokes Kennedy Crowley would have been one
24 of the people I would have sought information from.
25 20 Q. We will come back perhaps to that issue in a moment.
26 Do you know whether, besides the Shanley children,
27 there were any other beneficiaries of the Katharina
28 Trust?
29 A. Named category beneficiaries or actual
8
1 beneficiaries?
2 21 Q. Let's start with categories. Were there any other
3 categories of beneficiaries?
4 A. There were Categories people who would be
5 beneficiaries, yes. Potential beneficiaries.
6 22 Q. Can you outline those to us please?
7 A. Well, to my knowledge it was exclusively a
8 charitable object, when it was set up.
9 23 Q. Yes.
10 A. And I would not be in a position to give you -- a
11 lot of what I would be telling you would be hearsay,
12 it is hearsay of information gathered by me as a
13 solicitor acting for Maybach and acting for
14 Mr. Shanley.
15 24 Q. What you have indicated is that there were at least
16 two categories of beneficiaries?
17 A. No. What I said was that initially my understanding
18 was that is was, as the document was drawn, it was
19 exclusively for charitable purposes.
20 25 Q. Exclusively for charitable purposes?
21 A. That is my understanding. I think you better
22 preface anything I tell you with the words my
23 understanding because I wasn't directly involved in
24 these things and I can only base my information to
25 you on information I subsequently got by asking much
26 the same questions as you are asking me.
27 26 Q. What I am trying to do is just get an understanding
28 of the Katharina Trust?
29 A. Basically my understanding, which I would have set
9
1 out in the letter to you, was that the Maureen
2 O'Brien Settlement was set up in 1970. I think we
3 better start from the beginning because it leads on
4 to the Katharina afterwards.
5 27 Q. I would prefer to take it my way, if you don't mind
6 please?
7 A. In my mind the sequence -- we are talking about
8 things that happened 30 years ago, 20 years ago and
9 in my mind I would --, Okay, obviously you are in
10 control but it would be easier for me if I told you
11 what I know in relation to the sequence of events.
12 28 Q. Well, I was hoping that we would deal with the
13 matters that you wish to tell us about. I was
14 wanting to understand and your letter said that the
15 ultimate object of the trusts was to benefit the
16 Shanley children but you then added that there were
17 other classes of beneficiaries and then you
18 explained that the trust was set up originally for
19 charitable purposes?
20 A. This is why I would like it in context because when
21 you ask me these questions and I say the it was my
22 understanding that it was that it was set up for the
23 Shanley children, the first trust was set up with
24 S.K. Trust, which is which is a Stokes Kennedy
25 Crowley Trustee company and the Governor and Company
26 of the Bank of Ireland, who are very reputable
27 people I understand, were the trustees of the
28 original settlement. One the objects was to benefit
29 the children of Mr and Mrs. Shanley, I think it was
10
1 Brigid Shanley and whatever her husbands name was,
2 they would have been Mr. Shanley's parents, to
3 benefit their grandchildren, that was one of the
4 objects of that trust or one of the stated
5 beneficiaries of the trust.
6 29 Q. You are talking about the Maureen O'Brien Trust?
7 A. Correct. Maureen O'Brien Settlement.
8 30 Q. Settlement, excuse me, yes. If you would like to do
9 things that way then let us do that. So, the
10 Maureen O'Brien Settlement was set up in 1970, you
11 said in your letter, circa 1970?
12 A. Correct.
13 31 Q. You say it is a trust established in Ireland?
14 A. Correct.
15 32 Q. I suppose the first thing really is, who advised for
16 the setting up of that trust?
17 A. Stokes Kennedy Crowley.
18 33 Q. Using a vehicle which you described a moment ago,
19 will you just repeat that, S.K. Trust or something?
20 A. K.C. Trust and the governor of Continental Bank of
21 Ireland, who would be far removed from Michael
22 Shanley at that stage I might tell you.
23 34 Q. So, Mr. Shanley sought advice from S.K.C. in terms
24 of the setting up of that trust?
25 A. Correct.
26 35 Q. Were you also involved in the advice at that stage?
27 A. No.
28 36 Q. Who was it actually established the trust? Who were
29 the people who established it?

1 A. The Trust had an initial trust fund, I think of £100
2 and it was established by Maureen O'Brien who is the
3 sister of Michael Shanley.
4 37 Q. Yes?
5 A. And I would presume that it was through the
6 endeavours -- I don't think Maureen O'Brien would
7 have sought advice from Stokes Kennedy Crowley, I
8 think it was through the endeavours of Michael
9 Shanley that it would have been set up.
10 38 Q. I take it that if you weren't involved in advising
11 in the setting up of that trust that you would not
12 therefore have seen any of the trust documentation,
13 is that correct?
14 A. Correct. I didn't see it until 1979, I would think,
15 around '78/'79, is the first I would have seen
16 anything of it.
17 39 Q. When you say you saw it, does that mean that you had
18 access...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. I was sent a copy of the Maureen O'Brien Trust
20 documents by Stokes Kennedy Crowley and requested to
21 prepare a document to change the trustees from
22 K.C. Trust and the governor of the company of the
23 Bank of Ireland to Kenneth A. Lawless and that
24 document was prepared and signed in 1980.
25 40 Q. Have you retained a copy?
26 A. Yes, I could furnish you with a copy if you direct
27 me to do so.
28 41 Q. Yes, please, we would appreciate a copy of the
29 documentation creating the Maureen O'Brien
12
1 Settlement.
2 A. Yes. The actual Settlement document itself, I would
3 have a copy of it, not a copy of the document
4 changing the trustee, which I prepared myself at the
5 request of the bank and Stokes Kennedy Crowley.
6 42 Q. Then you say that you were instructed to prepare
7 another document?
8 A. How do you mean another document.
9 43 Q. You were instructed to prepare a document to convert
10 that trust?
11 A. I didn't say that.
12 44 Q. Sorry, would you just...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. Where did I say that? Did I say that?
14 45 Q. No, you didn't say it, I have used words which you
15 didn't use?
16 A. Correct.
17 46 Q. But I was trying to note down some other aspects of
18 it when you were speaking and therefore I didn't
19 fully take on board what you were saying. Perhaps
20 you would repeat what you said, please?
21 A. At what stage? I don't understand what you are
22 asking.
23 47 Q. You said you were given a copy of the Maureen
24 O'Brien Settlement documents in
25 1979...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. Document, singular.
27 48 Q. Yes, and that you were asked to take some action
28 respectively?
29 A. Asked to prepare a document to change the names of
13
1 the trustees from K.C. Trust and the Governor of the
2 Company of the Bank of Ireland to the name of a new
3 trustee, Kenneth A. Lawless. The request came from
4 Stokes Kennedy Crowley and from the Bank of Ireland.
5 That request came in either 1978 or '79.
6 49 Q. Who is Mr. Kenneth A. Lawless?
7 A. How do you mean who is he?
8 50 Q. I can't ask the question more clearly, is
9 Mr. Lawless someone with whom you are familiar?
10 A. Yes .
11 51 Q. Is he employed by S.K.C.?
12 A. No.
13 52 Q. Do you know who he is employed by?
14 A. At the moment I don't but he was...(INTERJECTION).
15 53 Q. Sorry, at that time?
16 A. At that time he would have been working with
17 Mr. Shanley's companies. Mr. Shanley would have
18 companies other than Maybach but he was working with
19 the Shanley organisation.
20 54 Q. So, Mr. Lawless became a trustee of the Maureen
21 O'Brien Settlement?
22 A. Yes. Sole trustee.
23 55 Q. Returning to your statement, the Maureen O'Brien
24 Settlement, having been set up in 1970, you say that
25 "It advanced funds to a company called Keeladrum".
26 A. My understanding, that was the information I got
27 circa the end of '82/'83, when I went researching
28 exactly where the documentation was relating to the
29 various movements of trust funds or whatever.

1 56 Q. Was that company Keeladrum Limited?
2 A. I don't know.
3 57 Q. Do you know if it was a incorporated entity?
4 A. I presumed it was. I could be Keeladrum Limited or
5 it could be Keeladrum. Keeladrum is the only name I
6 can recall.
7 58 Q. Was this, and you may not know this, was this an
8 Irish company?
9 A. I don't know.
10 59 Q. So, Keeladrum was advanced some funds?
11 A. Yes.
12 60 Q. Do you know was that by way of a loan?
13 A. I don't know.
14 61 Q. But in any event, you understand that the funds were
15 repaid by Keeladrum to the Maureen O'Brien
16 Settlement?
17 A. That was my understanding, yes.
18 62 Q. Circa 1980, at about the time that you were doing
19 the work in terms of changing the trustees to
20 include Mr. Lawless?
21 A. Yes. I don't know whether it was around the time
22 but it certainly was in the same year.
23 63 Q. So, '7 9/'8 0.
24 A. Yes.
25 64 Q. Do you know what the intention of the trustees was
26 in carrying out these two things in having Keeladrum
27 repay the loan and of changing the trustees. What
28 was happening at that stage?
29 A. I can only surmise myself from just looking at the
15
1 basic facts that the Maureen O'Brien Settlement had
2 an amount of funds, that those funds were entrusted
3 or given in some way to Keeladrum, again I would say
4 that this is information that I only gathered
5 second-hand that the arrangement whereby Maybach,
6 which we haven't mentioned yet, which is the company
7 which I was a director of, Maybach obtained the loan
8 from Guinness Mahon and it, according to your letter
9 and my information would have been secured by monies
10 lodged by Keeladrum with a bank, as I now
11 understand, in the Cayman Islands and that that loan
12 continued for two years and it would have been the
13 intention, I presume, to repay that loan to get rid
14 of Guinness Mahon.
15 65 Q. Just going back, the Keeladrum funds were repaid to
16 the Maureen O'Brien Settlement?
17 A. That is roughly -- the Maureen O'Brien Settlement
18 owned the money and Keeladrum -- the intention, as I
19 understand it, was that the Maureen O'Brien
20 Settlement funds would be used to repay the loan.
21 So, therefore, the steps really that were envisaged
22 at the time were that there would be a repayment to
23 Maureen O'Brien, Maureen O'Brien would advance all
24 the paperwork to put that in place may not have been
25 dealt with, that is what I set out to research at
26 that time.
27 66 Q. You have mentioned on a number of occasions that you
28 have done some research?
29 A. Yes.
16
1 67 Q. With whom did you do this research?
2 A. Mostly with Stokes Kennedy Crowley and I contacted
3 the College trustees people as well.
4 68 Q. Was there a particular person in S.K.C. with whom
5 you dealt?
6 A. Sean Mooney, at that stage was the man that I would
7 have been communicating in 1982/3 onwards.
8 69 Q. What was his role in S.K.C., do you know, at that
9 time?
10 A. I wouldn't have an idea. That is a very big firm, I
11 hardly know my own role in my own firm.
12 70 Q. All right, a more precise question. Was he a
13 partner in the firm at that time?
14 A. I don't know. It was twenty years ago. I wouldn't
15 have been interested really.
16 71 Q. When the Maureen O'Brien Settlement recovered the
17 money from Keeladrum, you believe that that money
18 was resettled on the Katharina Trust.
19 A. Yes.
20 72 Q. So, the money was transferred to the Katharina
21 Trust?
22 A. Well, in actual terms of bookkeeping or in
23 documentation at the time, I would have no proof but
24 that would have been the intention. That is as I
25 understand what happened. That is, as I understand,
26 why the Katharina Trust was set up.
27 73 Q. This action was undertaken by the trustees of the
28 Maureen O'Brien Settlement?
29 A. Well, it happened, I don't know who initiated it or
17
1 who actually carried it out but that did happen.
2 74 Q. Presumably someone gave an instruction to that
3 effect?
4 A. Yes .
5 75 Q. Do you know who that might have been?
6 A. I don't know. I couldn't really say who was
7 communicating at the time. Stokes Kennedy Crowley
8 would have been the people acting for Michael
9 Shanley, they would have been the people acting
10 for -- at least, around that time, what time would
11 that be, about 1977/'78. Stokes Kennedy Crowley
12 would have been the people advising Mr. Shanley and
13 I would have thought -- the fact that I had to
14 research the thing in 1982, that Mr. Shanley himself
15 wasn't keeping much records, you know.
16 76 Q. Presumably the action of moving the funds from the
17 Maureen O'Brien Settlement to the Katharina Trust
18 was done on advice and your surmise is that perhaps
19 that was the advice of Stokes Kennedy Crowley.
20 A. It would be unfair of me to say that, I think Stokes
21 Kennedy Crowley might answer that themselves.
22 77 Q. All right. But someone was determining that this
23 should happen and I was really wondering whether
24 your research seemed to point to Stokes Kennedy
25 Crowley as being an influence on the decision to do
26 this?
27 A. Well, I am telling you what I found out. I can only
28 tell you the facts, if you want to attribute words
29 like influence and things, I couldn't speculate
18
1 on -- that is 22, 23 years ago.
2 78 Q. But Stokes Kennedy Crowley in any event would have
3 been acting for Mr. Shanley?
4 A. Well, without them I wouldn't say Mr. Shanley
5 wouldn't be up to speed on trusts.
6 79 Q. I suppose ultimately it was Mr. Shanley's
7 instruction that this happened would that be
8 correct?
9 A. I don't know.
10 80 Q. Do you have any documentation on Keeladrum?
11 A. No.
12 81 Q. Do you know who its directors were?
13 A. No.
14 82 Q. If we then go back again to the Katharina Trust, the
15 Katharina Trust...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. There is a link between Keeladrum in the -- there
17 may not be a link but in the Maureen O'Brien
18 Settlement there is mention of a company called
19 Drumkeelan, I think that Keeladrum might be a
20 derivative from that word, so, it may have had some
21 inspiration in the Maureen O'Brien Trust.
22 83 Q. Just for the sake of accuracy do you know how
23 Drumkeelan is spelt?
24 A. I don't, no, but I presume it is
25 d-r-u-m-k-e-e-l-a-n, but I will be giving you a copy
26 of the actual documents.
27 84 Q. Thank you. So, Drumkeelan, was that a company
28 registered in Ireland?
29 A. I don't know.
1 85 Q. In any event the Katharina Trust received the funds
2 from the Maureen O'Brien Settlement around 1980?
3 A. Yes .
4 86 Q. It in turn advanced funds to Keeladrum?
5 A. That is my understanding.
6 87 Q. Sorry, excuse me it didn't, it advanced funds to
7 Maybach?
8 A. No. The initial advance, I think, was to Keeladrum,
9 or at least one advance before Maybach came into the
10 picture, Maybach only came onto the scene, I think,
11 around January of '78 and I think Keeladrum would
12 have got that money from the Maureen O'Brien
13 trustees much earlier.
14 88 Q. So, the Katharina Trust advanced some money, it in
15 turn advanced the money to Keeladrum?
16 A. The Katharina Trust came into existence in '77 and
17 the Katharina Trust got the money from the Maureen
18 O'Brien Settlement, which in turn presumably had got
19 it back from Keeladrum. I think the sequence was,
20 Maureen O'Brien Settlement, Keeladrum, back to the
21 bank, back to the Maureen O'Brien Settlement into
22 the Katharina Trust and a direct loan from the
23 Katharina Trust to Maybach. I think that is the
24 sequence. As I understand it but that seems to be
25 the way it went.
26 89 Q. In essence Katharina advanced money at some stage to
27 Maybach?
28 A. Yes .
29 90 Q. And you were acting, you or your firm were acting as
20
1 advisors to Maybach?
2 A. Well, not in relation to that particular matter.
3 91 Q. Did you advise on the setting up of Maybach?
4 A. Well, people don't look for advice, they set up
5 companies or instruct somebody, I don't know whether
6 it was my firm or usually accountants procure the
7 company and we come into play when the company is
8 doing something in relation to property or doing
9 something in relation to something else that we are
10 instructed. It may have been that we -- I would be
11 on the company records, the Memorandum of Articles
12 will show what is listed but I couldn't say that we
13 did it.
14 92 Q. I suppose what I was hoping to get to was what were
15 the objects of Maybach, in other words, what did it
16 set out to do as a company and what has it done?
17 A. They are two separate questions. The objects would
18 be very very far ranging on a standard company but
19 what it was set up to do, I would think, was to
20 purchase some property and to collect rents from the
21 property, investment property, that would have been
22 it's initial objective, I would think.
23 93 Q. That is what it subsequently went on to do?
24 A. It did that, yes.
25 94 Q. What sorts of property did it acquire?
26 A. It acquired investment property. Investment
27 property, property that would be let on rents.
28 95 Q. In the commercial field or in private property
29 field?
21
1 A. Nothing big, just houses.
2 96 Q. Houses ?
3 A. Yes, houses. Maybe some as offices or mostly as
4 apartments or flats.
5 97 Q. Did it own any land, farm land?
6 A. It bought farmland subsequently, yes.
7 98 Q. You became a director you said, in the second page
8 of your statement (Exhibit 1), you became a director
9 in 1978?
10 A. Whatever date I said there, yes.
11 99 Q. What was the intention of the company in having you
12 as a director? What was that enabling you to do?
13 A. I would say convenience at the time. I wouldn't
14 think I enhanced the company. There were two
15 directors at the time.
16 100 Q. You were a director here in Ireland?
17 A. There were two directors when I was asked to become
18 a director, one was in England, Clive Redrup and Ken
19 Lawless was in Ireland and I presume that it would
20 have been for convenience of signing documents or
21 sealing documents or what ever.
22 101 Q. Okay. Towards the bottom of the second page of your
23 statement you say that (Exhibit 1):
24 "During the greater part of my term as

director of the company" (That is
25 Maybach) "the company's auditors and
tax advisers were Stokes Kennedy
26 Crowley. I was happy to act as
director of the company while that firm
27 was dealing with the accountancy and
tax affairs of the company."
28
29 Why do you say that?

1 A. I say it for the reason that I have been asked to
2 come before you and answer questions. I was no more
3 than Mr. Shanley's -- somebody that had come to
4 Dublin without the sort of status or roots that
5 Stokes Kennedy Crowley would have. So, I merely say
6 that the firm would have comforted me in a major way
7 because they would be experts and they would have
8 status and they would been doing everything right
9 obviously. Acceptable to the establishment.
10 102 Q. That is interesting because you said to us that you
11 got to know Mr. Shanley in the late 60's?
12 A. That is my recollection, yes.
13 103 Q. And that you got to know him quite well?
14 A. No, I didn't say that, I said I became friendly with
15 him. There would be aspects of Mr. Shanley that I
16 would know nothing about.
17 104 Q. In fact it was nearly ten years later, say the late
18 70's, that you became a director. Would you not
19 have established quite a decent professional
20 relationship with Mr. Shanley by that stage?
21 A. Yes, any client I have, I have a decent professional
22 relationship with.
23 105 Q. Hence my question of you as to why you sought
24 comfort from...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. Because Mr. Shanley was not a tax expert and Mr.
26 Shanley was not a man who would know anything about
27 trusts. He would know the trust people and he would
28 know the people to trust, I think, but he wouldn't
29 be a person who would have any idea about setting up
23
1 trusts. One aspect of Mr. Shanley was that he
2 employed the best people, in his opinion, to do his
3 work and that probably set him aside from a lot of
4 other people in the building trade.
5 106 Q. I think the context of my question though was really
6 set against the background of your role as a
7 director of Maybach.
8 A. Okay, yes.
9 107 Q. I could well understand, Mr. Smith, that having a
10 signatory, a director's signatory in Ireland was a
11 valuable feature, where the other director was
12 across the water?
13 A. Yes.
14 108 Q. But I just was intrigued by the way you linked the
15 two things together in terms of the comfort you got
16 from having Stokes Kennedy as the company's
17 accountancy and auditing firm?
18 A. I don't know the point you are making. When you say
19 that I linked the two things together, what two
20 things are you talking about?
21 109 Q. What I am getting at is, this comment of yours seems
22 to imply a concern of some sort?
23 A. No, it is not. It is merely to convey to you that
24 I, as a director of the company was comforted, I
25 don't think I used that word in the statement, I am
26 using it now, by the fact that the people in charge
27 of the accounts of the company, it was my duty each
28 year as director to sign accounts and I wouldn't
29 likely do it and the fact that Stokes Kennedy
24
1 Crowley were the accountants and that they presented
2 the accounts to me as a director, would have been a
3 fact that made me happy to be a director of the
4 company.
5 110 Q. Because you believed that they would be conducting
6 all the right activities in terms of the preparation
7 of the accounts and signing them off as auditors and
8 so on?
9 A. Yes, I wasn't involved in the day to day operations
10 of this company?
11 111 Q. You weren't an executive, you were a non-executive?
12 A. I was a non-executive director, so, I would
13 obviously not be very happy or not be happy to act
14 as director of the company if it's affairs were not
15 being properly conducted.
16 112 Q. And of course you would have derived some comfort
17 from the fact that Stokes Kennedy Crowley had a
18 tremendous knowledge of Mr. Shanley's affairs and
19 activities and so on, of that sort?
20 A. You are saying that, yes.
21 113 Q. I was asking...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. You are merely confirming, yes, that is exactly what
23 I said.
24 114 Q. When Maybach was incorporated who was the person in
25 S.K.C. who would have been involved as advisor?
26 A. I don't know. There were various names of people I
27 knew in there but it would be unfair of me to say
28 that any particular person -- I wasn't on a day to
29 day basis going to Stokes Kennedy Crowley, in fact
25
1 it was in retrospect that I would have gone to them
2 looking for information. So, at the time that
3 Maybach was put in place who the person directing
4 operations in there for Mr. Shanley was or for
5 Maybach or whoever I wouldn't like to say.
6 115 Q. Presumably there was someone though who you would
7 have telephoned if you had a query?
8 A. No, I would have been a very small player compared
9 to Stokes Kennedy Crowley at that stage.
10 116 Q. But you were one of two directors of the company?
11 A. Three, one of three directors.
12 117 Q. Who was the third one?
13 A. Pardon?
14 118 Q. Who was the third one?
15 A. Clive Redrup, Kenneth A. Lawless and myself.
16 119 Q. Messrs. Redrup and Lawless were outside Ireland?
17 A. They were -- no, Kenneth Lawless in Dublin, and
18 Mr. Redrup was in the U.K. I am just thinking back
19 on your question, when you say to me who was the
20 person in Stokes Kennedy Crowley that was dealing
21 with Maybach, was that the question?
22 120 Q. Yes?
23 A. Well, there would be very little dealing with
24 Maybach at that particular time. Maybach, in
25 relation to the trust, there wouldn't be much
26 dealing with them but I can't really tell you who -•
27 Sean Mooney was the man I dealt with in 1982,
28 whether Sean Mooney was the person dealing with us
29 in 1978, I just cannot really swear to it.

1 121 Q. Mr. Smith, we ordinarily stop for a cup of tea or
2 coffee and I think we are going to do that just now
3 for ten or fifteen minutes. There will be some tea
4 or coffee provided to you. We will break for ten or
5 fifteen minutes.
6 A. Thank you.
8 (SHORT RECESS)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
27
1 AFTER THE SHORT RECESS
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will start then,
3 Mr. Rowan.
4 MR. ROWAN: Mr. Smith, I don't have
5 any further questions,
6 thank you. Ms. Mackey just wants to pick up a few
7 minor points
8 MR. SMITH: Fine, okay.
9 MS. MACKEY: I wanted to ask you,
10 Mr. Smith, a question,
11 first of all about Keeladrum. I think when you were
12 talking to Mr. Rowan there you said that in the
13 research that you had done into this matter in
14 1982/'83, you came across information relating to
15 the funds deposited by Keeladrum in what now appears
16 to be Ansbacher?
17 A. I don't think I said that.
18 122 Q. Did I understand you correctly?
19 A. No, I don't think I said that I came across
20 information about the funds, I came across
21 information that Keeladrum...(INTERJECTION).
22 123 Q. Indicating that this had happened?
23 A. I was told, yes, by Sean Mooney.
24 124 Q. You were told this. This is what I was going to ask
25 you, where did you find this information?
26 A. Sean Mooney in Stokes Kennedy Crowley.
27 125 Q. Told you that Keeladrum had deposited funds with
28 Ansbacher?
29 A. No, had got the money from the Maureen O'Brien
28
1 Settlement, the trustees.
2 126 Q. Yes.
3 A. There would have been also an indication that that
4 money was used for a back to back loan that Maybach
5 obtained from Guinness Mahon.
6 127 Q. Where would that indication have come from?
7 A. From Sean Mooney, he just told me.
8 128 Q. He told you that that money was used for a back to
9 back loan?
10 A. Yes.
11 129 Q. Did he tell you where the money was?
12 A. At the time, no, he wouldn't have said it.
13 Certainly, even at this point in time I don't know
14 where the money -- no, I didn't.
15 130 Q. Well I thought?
16 A. I presume that the money was on back to back and
17 that it was with a company or a bank or whatever it
18 was in the Cayman Islands.
19 131 Q. Why do you presume that?
20 A. You told me in a letter anyway since this thing
21 started that that was what happened.
22 132 Q. Apart from what we told you in the letter you don't
23 have any other information on that?
24 A. It is very difficult, you are asking me what people
25 said twenty years ago in 1982, at the end of '82
26 Mr. Shanley would have asked me to find out or look
27 into the question of the trusts and how the thing
28 was dealt with and as a result of that I would have
29 contacted Stokes Kennedy Crowley and discussed the
29
1 matter with them and there would have been an
2 indication that that's what happened at Keeladrum
3 but for me to say on sworn evidence that Sean Mooney
4 told me that the money was put in any particular
5 bank or any particular place, I think what would
6 have been said at the time was that it was used on a
7 back to back arrangement.
8 133 Q. Yes, I see. I am just looking at our letter
9 (Exhibit 2) to you, we didn't mention that fact, we
10 asked you whether any person associated with Maybach
11 or with the loan from Guinness and Mahon had
12 deposited funds in the Cayman Islands, either with
13 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust or otherwise and in
14 answer to that question you said (Exhibit 1):
15 "I have no documentation relating to

any funds deposited in the Cayman
16 Islands either with Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust or otherwise. My
17 understanding is that the Trust known
as the Maureen O'Brien Settlement (MOB
18 Settlement) which was a trust
established in Ireland in 1970,
19 advanced trust funds to a company
called Keeladrum"
20
21 A. Yes.
22 134 Q. Now you give us that in answer to our question
23 whether anyone connected with Maybach had deposited
24 money in the Cayman Islands?
25 A. Yes.
26 135 Q. I understood your evidence earlier this morning to
27 be that, in fact I understood that you specifically
28 said at some point but the transcript will clarify
29 that later that Keeladrum, that the
30
1 M. O'Brien Trust had advanced funds to Keeladrum
2 which they placed on deposit with Cayman and which
3 were used as a back to back?
4 A. Yes, well for me to distinguish between what my
5 presumptions are and what I was exactly told. I am
6 aware that you people are investigating a bank and
7 that I am here to give you evidence and that that
8 bank presumably was in the Cayman Islands because
9 that is the name of it, is a bit difficult for me
10 especially when I am asked questions about third
11 parties. If you were asking about what I did and
12 cross examining me on what I did I would be quite
13 happy but when you are cross examining me about what
14 other people told me, about what other people did,
15 it's getting far removed from my factual
16 information.
17 136 Q. Could you put it another way? You were going to
18 provide us with the trust deed from the Maureen
19 O'Brien Settlement and are you going to provide us
20 with other documentation relating to that trust?
21 A. I have the change of trustee.
22 137 Q. Do you have documentation indicating the loan to
23 Keeladrum?
24 A. I would have a letter on file from Stokes Kennedy
25 Crowley which would have outlined the position.
26 138 Q. Would you be able to provide us with that?
27 A. If you direct me to do so, yes.
28 139 Q. Does that refer to Keeladrum?
29 A. Well I have a letter that I wrote to Stokes Kennedy

1 Crowley.
2 140 Q. Yes .
3 A. And I have a reply from them.
4 141 Q. Did they reply specifically to Keeladrum?
5 A. There is reference to Keeladrum at some stage, now
6 whether it was in a conversation or in the letter, I
7 would have to go and get the letter.
8 142 Q. Well, if you would provide us with that
9 correspondence, any correspondence you have relating
10 to the loan, funds advanced from the Maureen O'Brien
11 Trust to Keeladrum and any possible use that
12 Keeladrum made of that?
13 A. My correspondence would be merely general
14 information with reference to these people, it
15 wouldn't be correspondence specifically relating to
16 the loan, at no stage did I get or ask for the
17 documentation relating to the loan but if you direct
18 me to give you the letter I wrote and the letter
19 that I got back.
20 143 Q. Please yes?
21 A. That is no problem.
22 144 Q. If those letters refer and we will see whether they
23 do or not, to Keeladrum, presumably they will
24 indicate what Keeladrum is?
25 A. No, it is just a reference to it, the same as if it
26 was a person.
27 145 Q. In relation to the Katharina Trust, we haven't asked
28 you to provide us with that trust deed, can you
29 provide us with that?

1 A. I can do, yes.
2 146 Q. Will you also provide us with any other
3 documentation relating to the Katharina Trust which
4 you have?
5 A. I think there is a change of trustee from Sovereign
7 147 Q. College?
8 A. Yes .
9 148 Q. Do you have a letter of wishes?
10 A. Pardon?
11 149 Q. Do you have a letter of wishes?
12 A. I would have copies, I wouldn't have myself been
13 directly involved but I would have got copies from
14 the client looking for advice and again on legal
15 professional privilege whatever it says under the
16 section of the act, I probably would need your
17 direction on that.
18 150 Q. Yes .
19 A. I am aware there is an important case, an important
20 decision of Judge Peter Kelly, pending from the High
21 Court on that very point at the moment. I know that
22 your inspectorate may be on a different basis but my
23 concern obviously it is not privileged in relation
24 to myself because I know I don't have any but it is
25 in relation to the client that if they seek as
26 advice from me on matters, am I entitled to
27 disclose? Is there any confidentiality in this
28 connection? I would be a little bit shattered
29 having been in the profession for forty years if I
33
1 became an open book.
2 151 Q. Yes, I think we would require you, Mr. Smith, to
3 provide us with those?
4 A. With?
5 152 Q. With the trust deed of the Katharina Trust. The
6 letter of wishes. Your entire files on the
7 Katharina Trust?
8 A. Yes. Okay. Is it in order if I write to the
9 company and to Mr. Shanley and say that I have been
10 directed to hand it over, if they have any objection
11 would they please contact you?
12 153 Q. Yes, but that you will hand it over anyway, to us,
13 you won't wait?
14 A. Well, I mean, their privilege is gone if I hand it
15 to you before giving them an opportunity. I am only
16 surmising, no contention between me and yourselves
17 or anything. I am quite happy to do whatever is
18 required.
19 154 Q. I am not sure what privilege you are asserting
20 Mr. Smith?
21 A. I am not asserting anything but I am a conduit pipe
22 here giving information to you which I got from
23 clients, being in the profession for almost forty
24 years, it would come as a great shock to me if I am
25 an open book for all my clients information but if
26 that is the way it is, so be it. The world is
27 changing slightly .
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If I could just intervene
29 here for the moment,
34
1 Mr. Smith. As you probably will appreciate we are
2 going to be in touch with Mr. Shanley.
3 MR. SMITH: Yes.
4 155 Q. We are going to ask him, if there is any legal
5 privilege, would he waive it.
6 A. Yes .
7 156 Q. If he doesn't waive it we will then have to consider
8 the position.
9 A. That would be helpful to me, yes.
10 157 Q. I would just like you to know that that it is going
11 to happen. I understand the position is that you
12 have corresponded on behalf of Mr. Shanley with the
13 Katharina Trust, is that it?
14 A. Yes .
15 158 Q. So, this isn't documents that came into your
16 possession somehow later. These are documents on
17 your files relating to the Katharina Trust on behalf
18 of your client Mr. Shanley, is that it?
19 A. They came into my possession when Mr. Shanley sought
20 my advice concerning the trust that had been set up.
21 159 Q. I see.
22 A. They weren't on my file.
23 160 Q. I misunderstood you but as I understand it then
24 there was correspondence in existence relating to
25 the establishment of the Katharina Trust which
26 Mr. Shanley gave you, your client Mr. Shanley gave
27 you?
28 A. No, what happened was that in November, around the
29 end of 1982, Mr. Shanley would have approached me

1 and sought my advice concerning the Trust and his
2 position or the position of Maybach and the position
3 of himself in relation to these trusts and that I
4 would have, as a result or in order to advise him on
5 the matter, I would have sought more information and
6 my file would consist mainly of that information.
7 Just to verify that, before 1982 there did exist
8 correspondence when Stokes Kennedy Crowley wrote to
9 me asking me to change the trustees of Maureen
10 O'Brien Settlement, that would have been the only
11 correspondence relative to either trust, from my
12 recollection just at the moment that I would have
13 had. My file would have consisted then of research
14 carried out in order to advise Mr. Shanley of his
15 position and the position of Maybach.
16 161 Q. Just leave aside for the moment the correspondence
17 of Stokes Kennedy Crowley, you are going to give us
18 that and you are going to give us...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. Yes, that is very little.
20 162 Q. What I am concerned about is, in relation to the
21 evidence that you have given, which is to the effect
22 that you have a copy of the Katharina Trust or that
23 you have a copy of the letters of wishes in relation
24 to the Katharina Trust?
25 A. In relation to the letter of wishes I would have
26 copies of what my client would have sent to me for
27 advice but I cannot say here that they are actually
28 the letters of wishes that were delivered.
29 Mr. Shanley presumably or whoever is giving the
36
1 letter of wishes would communicate directly with the
2 trustees.
3 163 Q. Yes, but you have documents relating to the letters
4 of wishes connected with the trust?
5 A. I would have a copy of a letter of wishes given by
6 Maureen O'Brien Initially, I would think and a copy
7 of her instruction to K.C. Trust and the Governor
8 and the Company of the Bank of Ireland to change the
9 trustee.
10 164 Q. Yes .
11 A. I would have those in relation to Maureen O'Brien.
12 165 Q. Yes .
13 A. In relation to the Katharina Trust, I would have
14 copy of trust document and I would have a partial
15 copy of the document changing the trustees from
16 Sovereign to College. The front page is missing, I
17 did ask College trustees for a copy of the front
18 page but I didn't ever get It but I don't think it
19 is a very important document, there is enough in it
20 to indicate what the document is, it is merely a
21 change of trustees.
22 166 Q. How did you get that document?
23 A. I would have got that, the Katharina, I think I
24 would have got whatever documents, maybe from the
25 trustees or maybe from Stokes Kennedy Crowley.
27 A. I would have been around the end of '82, when I
28 started my investigation.
29 168 Q. When you started the investigation you got copies of
37
1 these documents?
2 A. Yes .
3 169 Q. We are requiring you now to give us the copies of
4 those documents?
5 A. Yes .
6 170 Q. What I also wanted to clarify is that you did
7 mention letters of wishes?
8 A. You mentioned it or somebody mentioned it before I
9 mentioned it, I merely answered. I am not sort of
10 comfortable with the question because I would feel
11 that in the case of the letter of wishes that the
12 only letters I got, I am talking now about latter
13 day letters, the Maureen O'Brien letters I have no
14 problem with but the one I got from
15 Mr. Shanley would have been seeking
16 advice...(INTERJECTION).
17 171 Q. That is what I want to get at in enquiries from you
18 What period are you talking about?
19 A. I would be talking about -- that would have been --
20 probably in the late '80's or '90's.
21 172 Q. In the late '80's?
22 A. Or '90's.
23 173 Q. Or early '90's?
24 A. Well, it would be in the '90's. There has been
25 sporadic correspondence about this. There was 1982
26 and there was a three-year gap then, about 1985/6
27 and then it depended on when I was -- it wasn't
28 praying on my mind.
29 174 Q. I just want to get clarified, at this stage, you

1 were acting for Mr. Shanley?
2 A. I was carrying out inquiries that he requested me to
3 carry out. Who he was acting for or why, in what
4 capacity he was instructing me...(INTERJECTION).
5 175 Q. Mr. Shanley was your client?
6 A. And Maybach was my client.
7 176 Q. And Maybach?
8 A. Yes .
9 177 Q. On behalf of either Maybach or Mr. Shanley you
10 carried out correspondence?
11 A. Correct.
12 178 Q. In relation to the letter of wishes, both with
13 Mr. Shanley and with the trustees, did you?
14 A. Yes .
15 179 Q. And it's that correspondence that we request you to
16 give us?
17 A. That would be particular correspondence, I don't see
18 anything untoward in it but it is that particular
19 correspondence, I would certainly say, arose from
20 advice, as I recall, that they were matters about
21 property and things that I advised couldn't be done.
22 180 Q. Yes?
23 A. I don't see that Mr. Shanley will have any
24 ob j ections.
25 181 Q. You can find out from him if there is any objection.
26 A. Yes .
27 182 Q. Just so that we understand what the position is,
28 Ms. Mackey was asking you about the Katharina Trust
29 and you have indicated to us, did you have any other
39
1 correspondence relating to the Katharina Trust apart
2 from...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. My file that is open that I have is dated 1993 but
4 it's obviously extracted some correspondence from
5 earlier communications and in fact around 1985 or
6 1986, Stokes Kennedy Crowley or K.P.M. or whatever
7 they were called at the time, would have written to
8 me sending me copies of the two letters of '82.
9 183 Q. These are on your files?
10 A. Yes .
11 184 Q. In 1992?
12 A. The file is dated '93 but it has correspondence back
13 from '82.
14 185 Q. We would require copies of that file and you can
15 first of all have a word with your client about
16 them.
17 A. Yes .
18 MS. MACKEY: That is clarified and that
19 is helpful, thank you
20 Mr. Smith. In relation to the transfer of the funds
21 to the Katharina Trust?
22 MR. SMITH: Yes.
23 186 Q. Was that a total transfer of the funds in the
24 Maureen O'Brien Settlement, was that then
25 terminated?
26 A. I think it just went into dry dock.
27 187 Q. But it was emptied out?
28 A. Emptied out, yes, as I understand the position it
29 was emptied out, yes.
40
1 188 Q. Do you know or can you tell us what the Katharina
2 Trust did with those funds, where it placed them,
3 where it deposited them?
4 A. It just lent them directly to Maybach.
5 189 Q. Through Maybach?
6 A. To, t-o, they would be in Maybach's accounts.
7 190 Q. So, Maybach had the Katharina Trust funds?
8 A. Maybach obtained the Katharina funds and I think
9 myself that, my recollection is that the Katharina
10 Trust would be named as the lender in the accounts
11 of the company. The accounts are made out to the
12 Revenue Commissioners.
13 191 Q. Yes. We would also then ask you to provide us with
14 the Maybach accounts?
15 A. I can't because I am not a director. You would have
16 to ask Maybach themselves.
17 192 Q. You are no longer a director.
18 A. No.
19 193 Q. Do you have copies of any of the accounts?
20 A. No.
21 194 Q. Do you know where Maybach deposits the Katharina
22 Trust funds?
23 A. No, I would have thought they would use them rather
24 than deposit them.
25 195 Q. It doesn't invest them at all?
26 A. It would invest them in property or whatever. The
27 original loan would have been used to purchase
28 property.
29 196 Q. I see.
41
1 A. And to purchase the farm.
2 197 Q. In the event of additions to the Katharina Trust
3 fund what happens to those additions?
4 A. In addition to?
5 198 Q. Where additions are made to the original settlement?
6 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
7 199 Q. No additions ... (INTERJECTION)?
8 A. Not to my knowledge anyway whatever passed on from
9 the Maureen O'Brien Settlement again, my
10 understanding is that whatever was passed on to the
11 Maureen O'Brien trustees to the Katharina trustees
12 would have been the entire of the fund.
13 200 Q. So, your understanding then, if I have if correctly,
14 of what has happened, is that the funds that were in
15 the M. O'Brien trust went to Keeladrum by way of a
16 loan?
17 A. I didn't say, I am as short as yourselves on
18 information about Keeladrum.
19 201 Q. Went to Keeladrum who appears to have placed it on
20 deposit in Cayman for the purpose of this back to
21 back loan...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. Correct.
23 202 Q. Which Maybach got, then those funds were repaid by
24 Keeladrum to the Maureen O'Brien Trust.
25 A. Or the Maureen O'Brien Trust directed Keeladrum to
26 pass...(INTERJECTION).
27 203 Q. It came back, in any event, to the Maureen O'Brien
28 Trust, who then settled them on the Katharina Trust
29 which was constituted for that purpose?
42
1 A. Yes.
2 204 Q. The Katharina Trust then, which was a trust in the
3 Channel Islands?
4 A. Correct.
5 205 Q. Transferred by way of loan?
6 A. Yes.
7 206 Q. All of it's funds to Maybach which is an Irish
8 company?
9 A. Which is a company which it owned.
10 207 Q. Here in Ireland?
11 A. It was entitled through the entire issued share
12 capital of Maybach, so it was lending to its
13 company.
14 208 Q. It was lending to its company, so effectively all
15 the funds that went out to the Channel Islands are
16 here, is that correct?
17 A. They may have been repaid. They may have been
18 repaid in recent years.
19 209 Q. To the trust?
20 A. To the trust.
21 210 Q. This is what I was getting at originally, if they
22 were repaid to the trust, what did the trust do with
23 them?
24 A. Oh, I don't know, I would have no idea.
25 211 Q. You don't know whether the trust invested them?
26 A. I would have acted for Maybach when it sold assets
27 in the last few years and the money was paid in
28 Dublin to Maybach.
29 212 Q. Yes.
43
1 A. My understanding is that Maybach repaid the loan but
2 again you would have to get...(INTERJECTION).
3 213 Q. Repaid the loan to the trust?
4 A. That is my understanding.
5 214 Q. Have you any idea when that occurred?
6 A. It would be within the past two years, I would
7 think. Now, I mean they may have sold something
8 else, I don't know if anybody else -- I don't do
9 Mr. Shanley's legal work in the main in Ireland any
10 more but I do still act for Maybach.
11 215 Q. Right. So, if Maybach received this loan from the
12 Katharina Trust in order to trade and has
13 subsequently repaid it, is Maybach now a viable
14 entity in it's own situation?
15 A. Obviously it has grown up, yes.
16 216 Q. Does it... (INTERJECTION)?
17 A. It would be doing very bad after twenty years if it
18 couldn't repay a loan.
19 217 Q. Does it put its profits back to Katharina?
20 A. I don't know.
21 218 Q. You don't know.
22 A. I don't know whether it has any profits.
23 219 Q. You don't know whether it has profits?
24 A. It may not, if it's a property company, an
25 investment company with borrowers, I don't know
26 exactly what -- I haven't been a director for ten
27 years or twelve years, so, I don't know exactly.
28 220 Q. You mentioned that it had rental property?
29 A. Correct.
44
1 221 Q. It collects therefore the rents from these
2 properties. Does it still, at the moment, as far as
3 you know, actively invest in purchase property and
4 development property.
5 A. Well it sold the main investment properties it had,
6 it may have retained some, it still has the farm.
7 222 Q. Yes. And it isn't at the moment engaged in
8 purchasing or development?
9 A. It could be, I don't know.
10 223 Q. In relation to the loan that Maybach got from
11 Guinness and Mahon, can you tell us anything about
12 that?
13 A. I can't. I was told in your letter that we were on
14 record, Smith Foy of T. K. Smith Foy and Co., at the
15 time were on record and I have a recollection of
16 being in Guinness Mahon's premises on at least maybe
17 two occasions, whether it was in connection with
18 that particular business or not I don't know but I
19 don't have any file on it, I have looked in the
20 office, there was no file on it at the time but if
21 we were acting as solicitor I am sure we had
22 something, some records or whatever but it would be
23 very little if they were just getting a loan on a
24 back to back basis. I would think that there was no
25 charge on the assets of Maybach at the time. There
26 was no mortgage or anything to be done, so, I don't
27 know what function we might have played.
28 224 Q. Can you tell us anything about how the back to back
29 security arrangement arose?
45
1 A. None, absolutely none.
2 225 Q. You can't.
3 A. No. It lasted for about two years to my knowledge
4 on Maybach and I couldn't have seen it of great
5 benefit really, you know.
6 226 Q. Right. Where do you get the information that it
7 lasted for two years.
8 A. Well, it was repaid in 1980 and it was got in 1978
9 so.
10 227 Q. Where do you find that information?
11 A. I think I gave it to you in my letter.
12 228 Q. Yes, but...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. I would have got that in my inquiries but I would
14 have made inquires since you wrote to me.
15 229 Q. From whom would you have made those inquiries?
16 A. I would have spoken to Pat Guinan, I would have
17 spoken to Sean Mooney.
18 230 Q. Right. Would Sean Mooney have been able to give you
19 information on that loan?
20 A. No, apart from what I had in my file, I didn't get
21 any more information from him.
22 231 Q. Right. I am just wondering where the
23 information...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. Well, I thought he might have files, when I
25 contacted him I thought that they may have had their
26 file on it.
27 232 Q. But where did the information come from that the
28 loan began in '78 and ended in '80?
29 A. Where did that information come from. I suppose any
46
1 information I got really either came from Stokes
2 Kennedy Crowley or the company itself, Maybach.
3 There would be no other source of information to me.
4 233 Q. I see. Just to move onto a slightly different
5 matter. Can you tell us about Provan Limited?
6 A. Very little.
7 234 Q. Well, what can you tell us. Is this an Irish
8 company?
9 A. I think it is a major enough building company at the
10 moment. It would be, from hearsay again, I think it
11 is building houses or operating in Cork successfully
12 but I don't act for the company.
13 235 Q. Are you or have you ever been a director of Provan?
14 A. No.
15 236 Q. Do you know if this is a company belonging to
16 Mr. Michael Shanley?
17 A. I don't know.
18 237 Q. You don't know?
19 A. When I say I don't know I mean I don't know who the
20 directors or the beneficial owners of the company
21 are.
22 238 Q. It has the same address as Maybach?
23 A. Yes. It would be a company with which he had an
24 interest I presume but again...(INTERJECTION).
25 239 Q. But of your knowledge?
26 A. I know that it is Provan, maybe we did act for them
27 in some small thing but we haven't been acting, as I
28 say, for Mr. Shanley's companies.
29 240 Q. I see?
47
1 A. And I might say that Maybach wasn't Mr. Shanley's
2 main operation in Ireland, at any stage and that
3 would have been set aside for his children and he
4 would have shown a very keen interest in it because
5 he is interested in his children. I think myself
6 that that is what happened.
7 241 Q. Can I ask you if you could tell us anything about
8 Montoire Limited, m-o-n-t-o-i-r-e?
9 A. I never heard of it before.
10 242 Q. You never heard of it?
11 A. No, they are getting fancier obviously.
12 243 Q. Yes .
13 A. Provan we may have formed as well, it may have Smith
14 Foy's name on it but we didn't act for it.
15 244 Q. I have no further questions, Mr. Smith.
16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Smith, just a few
17 matters will you just turn
18 to your letter (Exhibit 1), I just want to get some
19 particulars.
20 MR. SMITH: All right.
21 245 Q. On the second page of your letter you give a list of
22 directors ?
23 A. Yes .
24 246 Q. Cecil Garreth Walker, who is he, Mr. Smith, do you
25 remember?
26 A. I have no idea. He is probably one of these company
27 formation people. There was a Walker in Stokes
28 Kennedy Crowley but it mightn't be the same fellow.
29 247 Q. If we move on then, Clive Redrup, you say he was
48
1 from England?
2 A. Yes.
3 248 Q. Do you know what he is?
4 A. He was an accountant, at least an internal
5 accountant.
6 249 Q. An internal accountant in Mr. Shanley's business?
7 A. Correct.
8 250 Q. In the U.K.
9 A. Yes.
10 251 Q. Kenneth Allen Lawless, is he the Mr. Lawless who you
11 mentioned earlier?
12 A. Yes. He was an internal accountant as well.
13 252 Q. He was an internal accountant and he was in Dublin,
14 was he?
15 A. He was in Dublin and still is I believe.
16 253 Q. Was he all the time in Ireland?
17 A. Yes.
18 254 Q. And looking after Mr. Shanley affairs in Ireland?
19 A. Amongst other things, yes.
20 255 Q. Then we have yourself and then we have Maureen
21 O'Brien and that is his sister?
22 A. A sister of Michael Shanley's, yes.
23 256 Q. Who had been a director since 1984?
24 A. Yes. She is the same Maureen O'Brien as the Maureen
25 O'Brien Settlement.
26 257 Q. Yes. Now, Mr. Smith, during the time that you were
27 director or from the knowledge that you have
28 obtained as a director did Maybach obtain other
29 loans from Guinness and Mahon either in the U.K. or
49
1 in Ireland?
2 A. No. To my knowledge, no.
3 258 Q. To your knowledge, no, and did it obtain loans from
4 other institutions?
5 A. It would have in the normal way, I presume, yes. A
6 search in the company's office would disclose any
7 mortgages or charges that it put in place but there
8 was nothing unusual about the company's operations.
9 259 Q. You have just said that in the company's accounts it
10 would show the loan from the Katharina Trust, is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes. I would have asked Pat Guinan about that
13 specifically, yes.
14 260 Q. You mean when you were a director?
15 A. No, but when I got your letter.
16 261 Q. Well, I know it is very hard?
17 A. I wouldn't remember. When I was a director I
18 wouldn't remember what was in the accounts.
19 262 Q. You were told by Pat Guinan?
20 A. Recently I went and I said -- my understanding,
21 sorry, to answer your question, at the time I was a
22 director my understanding was that it had loan funds
23 and obviously I had carried out any inquiries in '82
24 at a time when I was a director, so, I would have
25 become aware in my capacity as solicitor of the
26 information you are now asking me.
27 263 Q. What I am coming to is this, that your evidence to
28 us is that it appears in the accounts that the
29 Katharina Trust had lent money to...(INTERJECTION)?

1 A. Yes.
2 264 Q. The information given by Mr. Guinan to you?
3 A. Well, I did say to him the reason I knew that the
4 Katharina Trust had advanced money from the
5 investigations I have mentioned but I would have
6 gone back to him and said did the accounts show the
7 name Katharina Trust and the answer was yes.
8 265 Q. You don't recollect it from your own recollection?
9 A. I wouldn't, I would have signed the accounts, as I
10 say, presented to me by Stokes Kennedy Crowley, you
11 know.
12 266 Q. We will require to get to see these accounts but we
13 can take that up directly with Mr. Shanley?
14 A. Well those accounts would have been submitted to the
15 revenue. They are on record.
16 267 Q. Yes.
17 A. Are the revenue privy to evidence I give today.
18 268 Q. The evidence you give today is absolutely
19 confidential to us.
20 A. I see.
21 269 Q. But of course what we put in our report will be
22 based on the evidence we get.
23 A. I see, okay but a transcript of my evidence won't be
24 forwarded in total to the revenue?
25 270 Q. It is our document and you will get the transcript
26 and we will check it hopefully and then you will
27 sign it and it is our document and what we then do
28 with it is a matter for us. We don't send it to
29 anybody as you know we are officers of the court?
51
1 A. It is just that I have read in the papers, which may
2 be a doubtful source of information, that there were
3 senior members of the revenue assigned to this
4 particular Inquiry. That caused me a bit of
5 concern, seeing that I am giving confidential
6 information.
7 271 Q. With regard to the Maureen O'Brien Settlement and
8 the repayment of the money?
9 A. Yes.
10 272 Q. When you were giving evidence first in relation to
11 that you said that the Maureen O'Brien fund was used
12 to repay the loan to G.M.I., to Guinness and Mahon?
13 A. That's funds, I think what happened there is that
14 Maureen O'Brien trustees directed, again I have no
15 documentation to show that this direction took place
16 but what I understand is that the Maureen O'Brien
17 Settlement trustees directed Keeladrum to pay the
18 Maureen O'Brien's money over and that would have
19 been for the benefit of the Katharina Trust, this is
20 as I understand it.
21 273 Q. I am not following you, Mr. Smith, if you would just
22 listen to me?
23 A. Yes, yes, okay.
24 274 Q. As I understand what you have told us, there are two
25 separate things that you told us?
26 A. Yes.
27 275 Q. One was that the Maureen O'Brien funds were used to
28 repay the back to back loan given by G.M.I., by
29 Guinness Mahon?
52
1 A. Ultimately that is what...(INTERJECTION).
2 276 Q. Well, now this is what I want to find out?
3 A. Yes, okay.
4 277 Q. Am I correct in saying that you did say that?
5 A. Again, I would have to see the transcript to know
6 exactly what I said.
7 278 Q. Then you told us...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. I think, sorry for interrupting but I think what I
9 would have been giving is the broad outline of
10 events as I saw them, right. I may have been
11 simplifying the procedure but I would have said that
12 the Maureen O'Brien funds were repaid by Keeladrum
13 and settled on the new trust, which was Sovereign
14 trustees who were the trustees of the Katharina.
15 The actual documentation putting those steps in
16 place...(INTERJECTION).
17 279 Q. You are not following the question I am asking
18 Mr. Smith.
19 A. Okay, yes.
20 280 Q. Mr. Smith you told us two separate things and
21 perhaps you could clarify what the position is?
22 A. Yes .
23 281 Q. The second thing you told us was that the Maureen
24 O'Brien Settlement funds were paid to the Katharina
25 Trust trustees?
26 A. Correct.
27 282 Q. And that they then lent the money to Maybach?
28 A. That was my understanding. I think I prefaced that
29 anything I said was my understanding. I wasn't a
53
1 party to it or privy to it, yes.
2 283 Q. Now, I want to know can you explain the two answers
3 you have given us, one is that the money was paid
4 over to the trustees of the Katharina Trust who then
5 lent it back to Maybach and the other was that the
6 money was used from the Maureen O'Brien Settlement
7 to pay off the G.M.I, loan that was the back to back
8 loan?
9 A. I think the missing word there was used by whom, was
10 used by whom and my understanding is that it was
11 used by the Katharina Trust to do it.
12 284 Q. To do what?
13 A. To give the money to Maybach to pay back the loan.
14 285 Q. I see?
15 A. My understanding of the position
16 is...(INTERJECTION).
17 286 Q. So the money then was being transferred from the
18 trustees of the Maureen O'Brien fund to the trustees
19 of the Katharina Trust who sent it to Maybach and
20 Maybach used those funds to pay off the loan from
21 G.M.I.?
22 A. When you say sent it to Maybach...(INTERJECTION).
23 287 Q. Lent it, lent it to Maybach.
24 A. Okay, when I did my research one of the matters that
25 emerged was that there was a shortage of paper work
26 to record...(INTERJECTION).
27 288 Q. Mr. Smith...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. This is the only way I can answer...(INTERJECTION).
29 289 Q. Just listen to the question?

1 A. No, I know what the question you ...(INTERJECTION).
2 290 Q. The question I am asking you is, if I can correctly
3 summarise the position, that the money was
4 transferred to the Katharina trustees who lent it to
5 Maybach and Maybach used it to pay off the loan?
6 A. That was the procedure as told to me but I have no
7 evidence...(INTERJECTION).
8 291 Q. I appreciate that?
9 A. And what I was going on to say is that when I got
10 instructions to look into the matter that the actual
11 documentation to support the actual movements of the
12 fund were not available to me and at that stage I
13 requested that Stokes Kennedy Crowley would furnish
14 the necessary documentation and a memorandum was
15 prepared which was set down, I have a copy and there
16 is no signatures on the copy that I have, of the
17 trustees of the two settlements acknowledging what
18 happened.
19 292 Q. Very well.
20 A. That is the nearest I can come.
21 293 Q. That's pretty close and that was in 1982?
22 A. It would be subsequent about '85/'86 but again it is
23 taken from memory.
24 294 Q. Can you give us that?
25 A. Anything I have will be on the file.
26 295 Q. You can give us that then?
27 A. Yes.
28 296 Q. What I understand then is that you made enquiries in
29 1882?
55
1 A. Yes .
2 297 Q. But then you must have made inquiries later then?
3 A. What happened was, I would have been quite busy and
4 Mr. Shanley was quite busy and the trust was
5 something and Maybach, which wasn't the mainstream
6 of Mr. Shanley's activities and he would have come
7 to me towards the end of'82 and sought my advice as
8 to where he stood in relation to all of these things
9 because he didn't understand them and didn't know
10 too much about them. I think the correspondence
11 will disclose some sentiments along those lines and
12 from the enquiries and we met at the time, certain
13 information evolved and a period of about three
14 years or that before any further activity.
15 298 Q. I see, so, you are going to give us all of this?
16 A. That's right. It came in starts people got
17 enthusiastic about it.
18 299 Q. Very well. You can give us all these documents?
19 A. Everything I have, subject to me telling
20 Mr. Shanley.
21 300 Q. Very well. Just for our own information, Mr. Smith,
22 Mr. Shanley was carrying on business in Ireland and
23 he also carried on business in London, do you know
24 where...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. I don't think he carried on any business in Ireland
26 in his own name but he certainly...(INTERJECTION).
27 301 Q. Through the companies.
28 A. Through companies. Yes.
29 302 Q. Do you know where he resided?

1 A. Yes, he resided in Tingrith.
2 303 Q. In England?
3 A. Yes.
4 304 Q. You did mention that he went to England at the age
5 of 15, did he spend all his life in England?
6 A. I think if he comes here he will tell you all about
7 it.
8 305 Q. I just want to...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. I am not saying that but he is...(INTERJECTION).
10 306 Q. I just want to get a quick tour myself, did he live
11 all his working life in England?
12 A. He came from Drumshanbo in county Leitrim, he would
13 have been deprived of the opportunities that are now
14 available in Ireland...(INTERJECTION).
15 307 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION) ?
16 A. Well, you asked me the question, so, if you want a
17 fen fichre?
18 308 Q. No, I don't, I don't, I just want to know did he
19 reside in Ireland or England?
20 A. He was forced to go to England...(INTERJECTION).
21 309 Q. Yes, did he reside in England?
22 A. The way that most people from Cavan and Leitrim and
23 all those counties had to go in the 50's.
24 310 Q. Did he reside in England?
25 A. He resided and still resides in England.
26 311 Q. That's what I wanted to find out. Very well.
27 A. I thought you wanted a bit of background?
28 312 Q. No, no, not at all.
29 A. Nobody is really interested in those people, except
57
1 for the type of thing we are talking about today.
2 There should be more research by the Government I
3 think on why those people had to leave.
4 313 Q. Well, we have enough to do ourselves.
5 A. I know, I know.
6 314 Q. Very well, Mr. Smith, thank you for your attendance.
7 A. If they gave the money that they are spending on the
8 inspectorate and the tribunals over to some of these
9 homeless people in England.
10 315 Q. I won't make any comment on that.
11 A. Nobody is interested and you were a very good man in
12 your day. There should be somebody interested.
13 316 Q. Thank you very much Mr. Smith.
14 A. Thank you.
15
16 THE HEARING WAS THEN CONCLUDED
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
58
fC U.Ct#-VU*JU Ajj-O^
J^ 7b Û^-fx^ c* ^
CLMYVtv^f
Appendix XV (120) Mr John D Sheridan
John D Sheridan.
a) Letter of 28 January 2002 - Gibbs & McCurley Attorneys to the

Inspectors.
.01/30/2002 14:58 FAX 727 892 6002 GIBBS & MCCURLEY,FA ifilOOl S O '
GIBBS & MCCURLEY, P.A

Attorney* At lew
100 Second Avenue South, Suite 704-S
St Petersburg, Florida 33701
Telephone (727) 892-6001
Facsimile (727) 892-6002
S 1 )Ak m
January 28, 2002
His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary

Ms. Noreen Mackey B.L.
Mr. Paul Rowan FCA
Mr. Michael Cush S.C.
Re: Ms. Susan Sheridan Mack
Dear Sirs and Madams:
Reference is made to your correspondence of December 17, 2001 affording Ms.

Sheridan Mack an opportunity to provide you with a written reply to the preliminary
conclusions reached by you relating to Ansbacher.
Please be advised that Ms. Mack has retained the undersigned to represent her
with respect to this matter. As you may or not be aware, Ms. Mack's father, John D.
Sheridan died in January, 1983. Subsequently, in 1985 Ms. Mack first heard of
Ansbacher and began receiving distributions. Ms. Mack has no idea how she acquired
her interest, but presumed that it was inherited from her father.
Please understand that Ms. Mack is never considered herself a "client" of

Ansbacher and still does not do so. Again, she has little knowledge of the investment
and still assumed that it was inherited.
If we can be of any further service to you please contact the undersigned.
Sincerely,
GIBBS & McCURLEY, P.A.
(Signed in die absence of B. Gray Gibbs to avoid delay)
BGG/Hk
Appendix XV (121) Mr Jack Stakelum
Jack Stakelum.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Jack Stakelum dated 8 November 2000.
b) Transcript of evidence of Mr Jack Stakelum dated 6 December 2000.
c) Letter of 15 January 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
d) Letter of 16 May 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
e) Letter of 5 February 1991 - Joan Williams to IIB.
f) Letter of 6 November 2000 - Jack Stakelum to the Inspectors.
g) Letter of 3 April 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
h) Letter of 11 December 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
i) Letter of 30 January 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
j) Letter of 8 August 1994 - Hamilton Ross Company Limited to IIB.
2. Correspondence written by or on behalf of Mr Jack Stakelum.
a) Letter of 8 November 2001 - Mr Jack Stakelum to Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JACK STAKELUM
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY, 8TH NOVEMBER 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. JACK STAKELUM
Accompanied by: MR. KARL HAYES
GORE & GRIMES SOLICITORS
CAVENDISH HOUSE
SMITHFIELD
DUBLIN 7
1 THE INTERVIEW WITH MR. STAKELUM COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS
2 ON WEDNESDAY, 8TH NOVEMBER 2000:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO Mr. Stakelum, we will
5 start our interview now.
6 I will introduce the inspectors.
7 I am Declan Costello. Ms. Mackey is on my right
8 and Mr. Rowan is on my left. As you know we have
9 been appointed inspectors by the High Court. This
10 is an interview and I should explain, Mr. Stakelum,
11 that it will be under oath. I will ask our
12 solicitor in a moment to administer the oath to you.
13 But if during the interview we ask you questions on
14 which you would like legal advice, please tell us --
15 whoever is asking you the questions -- and we will
16 stop and you can consult with your solicitor.
17 Similarly, should your solicitor think it proper
18 that he should give you legal advice on any
19 question, he can indicate to us that we should stop
20 and he can then discuss the matter with you.
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
3
1 MR. JACK STAKELUM, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MR. COSTELLO:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO Mr. Stakelum, regretfully
5 we only received yesterday
6 in the middle of the morning your letter of
7 6th November in reply to our letter, our previous
8 correspondence. Unfortunately this means that we
9 can not adequately complete the interview this
10 morning because a number of matters have to be
11 investigated by us before we continue asking you
12 questions, matters which have been raised both in
13 this letter that we got yesterday and in the earlier
14 correspondence. What I would hope to do would be
15 to make some progress this morning and then to
16 adjourn our interview to perhaps not next week but
17 the week after, if we could find a suitable date.
18
19 What I propose to do, Mr. Stakelum, now is just to
20 try to get some general matters clarified about your
21 career and your association with Guinness & Mahon
22 here in Ireland, and Mr. Traynor in particular, and
23 what help you can give us about the services which
24 Ansbacher gave to clients of yours here in Ireland
25 or what you may know about the services. Because
26 as you know, what we are required by the
27 High Court to do is to investigate the affairs of
28 Ansbacher. That having been done, we would then
29 like to ask you some further questions about a
4
1 couple of the detailed matters that we wrote to you
2 about: Ms. Banotti's affairs and Mr. Keane's
3 affairs. I would like to start with some general
4 background information, Mr. Stakelum, if you
5 wouldn't mind giving it to us. First of all about
6 your career as an accountant, if you could briefly
7 outline it for us.
8 A. I commenced training as an articled clerk with a
9 firm called Boland O'Dowd but they broke up and I
10 transferred to Haughey Boland & Co in or about 1956,
11 I think late 1956. That is where I would have met
12 Mr. Traynor. I left Haughey Boland in 1958.
13 I qualified in the meantime and rejoined them in
14 1962. At that stage Mr. Traynor was a partner in
15 the firm. Then I became a partner in 1967. He
16 left Haughey Boland & Co in 1970 or 1971 and joined
17 Guinness & Mahon. I left in late 1975 to form my
18 own consultancy company, Business Enterprises Ltd,
19 which is where I operated until I semi-retired;
20 I closed the office and let the company run down in
21 1998. I operate a few clients from home now.
22 1 Q. Could you tell me about the nature of the business
23 that you started in 17, Clyde Road, is that right?
24 A. That's right. 17, Clyde Road was my office until I
25 closed that in October 1998. I operated from there
26 all the time after leaving Haughey Boland, so I
27 didn't operate from anywhere else. That was a
28 financial consultancy company whereby I provided
29 financial services to clients, sometimes being on
5
1 their board of directors, more times not depending
2 on what the wishes of the clients were and what was
3 suitable for the occasion. Most of the work would
4 have been involved in the financial field dealing
5 with banks and arranging short, medium and long-term
6 loans. Monitoring their financial requirements.
7 But some clients would have you do a lot of work for
8 them and more a lot less. Some would include
9 interviewing for replacement staff involving you in
10 the normal day-to-day business decisions of the
11 company. Others wouldn't require you, only when
12 specific needs arose in connection with banking.
13 Mostly banking.
14 2 Q. You had two companies, is that right?
15 A. There is some confusion about that. Business
16 Enterprises Ltd was the main company. We had a
17 company called BEL Secretarial Ltd. The "BEL" is
18 the initials of business enterprises. That was to
19 provide secretarial services to companies. It may
20 have been appointed secretary to some companies but
21 it never functioned in the sense that it
22 never...(INTERJECTION).
23 3 Q. The main one was Business Enterprises Ltd?
24 A. Absolutely, yes.
25 4 Q. You were director of this company. Did you have
26 anybody else in the company with you as a fellow
27 director?
28 A. I had one colleague with me from the time I started
29 up to about 1986 and then I got another.

1 5 Q. When you say a colleague, did he own part of the
2 equity of the company?
3 A. No, I think we only had two shares issued. I may be
4 wrong about that, there might have been a 100 shares
5 issued, but I would have been the beneficial owner
6 of the whole lot.
7 6 Q. Of the whole 100?
8 A. Yes.
9 7 Q. When you say you had a colleague, is that just
10 somebody who merely acted as a director to come to
11 the board of directors meetings?
12 A. No, he would have worked with me. Originally it was
13 an assistant that was with me in Haughey Boland & Co
14 that came with me at the time.
16 A. Joseph Seely.
17 9 Q. He would have left about 1986. He would have been
18 replaced. Then I would have recruited another
19 colleague from what was Haughey Boland & Co or
20 Deloitte & Touche?
22 A. Ian Murray.
23 11 Q. Were they on the payroll of the company?
24 A. That's right.
25 12 Q. So that in fact, it really was virtually a one-man
26 company, it was your company?
27 A. That's right.
28 13 Q. You had one assistant, Mr. Seely and Mr. Murray
29 later?
7
1 A. That's right.
2 14 Q. What staff did you have as well?
3 A. The only other one was a secretary.
4 15 Q. Can you give me the names of the secretaries that
5 you employed?
6 A. My own secretary is Ms. Ann Verdon. She would be
7 with me 30 years. She was with me in Haughey
8 Boland & Co and came with me. At stages further
9 back there would be an extra younger girl but I
10 would be struggling to remember names. They would
11 have changed periodically.
12 16 Q. The main person was Ms. Verdon?
13 A. That's right, yes.
14 17 Q. I want you to be a little more explicit about your
15 business. Did you act as an accountant. Did you
16 carry out any accountancy work for your clients.
17 Did you audit their books for example?
18 A. No. I wouldn't have been in practice as an auditor
19 at that stage. There would have been different
20 assignments carried out for different clients.
21 I think in the sense of accountancy, very little.
22 There would have been some things whereby we would
23 have operated the payroll for clients, which
24 principally was to preserve confidentiality for the
25 client from staff. We would have operated payroll,
26 so to that extent we would have been doing
27 accounting.
28 18 Q. But you didn't act as auditor?
29 A. No.
8
1 19 Q. Did you act as tax adviser?
2 A. No, I wouldn't know anything about tax really.
3 I was never a tax adviser and never an auditor.
4 My function was mostly in the finance area with
5 banks and then general business.
6 20 Q. Being in the financial area about banks, was that
7 raising money for your clients?
8 A. That's right.
9 21 Q. Raising loans and organising loans and organising
10 securities for your clients?
11 A. Yes, that's right. Providing whatever was needed
12 to the banks.
13 22 Q. The banks would require security for loans and you
14 were involved in that?
15 A. Yes, that's right. I would be involved in talking
16 to the banks and offering what security would be
17 available to the banks in connection with loans.
18 23 Q. It would be an integral part of your work?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 24 Q. When Mr. Traynor left the bank and left
21 Haughey Boland and went full-time, he had been
22 before that a director of Guinness & Mahon Ireland
23 or am I wrong in that, before he left full-time?
24 A. I don't actually know that. I know that he was
25 doing a lot of work for the bank in connection with
26 certainly their clients before he left
27 Haughey Boland & Co to join them. I don't know
28 whether he was a director or not.
29 25 Q. Do you know that when he joined them he became Chief

1 Executive. He was Vice Chairman and
2 Chief Executive?
3 A. At the time that he joined there was John Guinness
4 in the bank and William Forde. He became joint
5 something, like joint managing director and probably
6 John Guinness Chairman. I'm not sure who would
7 have been joint with him, but maybe William Forwood.
8 26 Q. You were described in the McCracken report as a
9 close personal friend of Mr. Traynor's, is that
10 correct?
11 A. Me?
12 27 Q. Yes?
13 A. Yes, very close.
14 28 Q. Would he have told you about the establishment of
15 the offshore companies that Guinness & Mahon were
16 involved in?
17 A. I would have become aware; I wouldn't necessarily
18 know what the structure might be. It wouldn't be
19 almost that he would be telling me that. But I was
20 certainly aware that he was involved with Cayman.
21 29 Q. Tell me what you understood?
22 A. I am not sure what dates or stages he would have
23 been very involved with the Cayman islands.
24 Certainly at stages he used to be going out to
25 Cayman three or four times a year. I would have
26 met at one stage socially John Furze and
27 John Collins. They would have come to Ireland.
28 I would have met them probably at dinner in
29 Mr. Traynor's house. I am not sure what else I
10
1 might have understood from that?
2 30 Q. It is not a question of what you might have
3 understood, Mr. Stakelum, I just want you to tell us
4 what you knew about the operations of the subsidiary
5 in the Cayman Islands?
6 A. I am not sure how to answer that under oath in the
7 sense of telling what the truth is or what I would
8 be imagining.
9 31 Q. Do your best, Mr. Stakelum. Tell me what you know
10 about the company that was established in the
11 Cayman Islands, the subsidiary, and what it did.
12 What services did it supply?
13 A. A lot is what I am reading in the papers.
14 32 Q. Tell me what you know?
15 A. I guess there was a company established in the
16 Cayman Islands that would have dealt from an Irish
17 point of view with offshore monies. I don't know
18 whether that was a subsidiary of Dublin or whether
19 it was a subsidiary of London. I have a feeling at
20 one stage that it was one way and then it moved the
21 other way for whatever internal reasons Guinness &
22 Mahon would have had.
23 33 Q. Have you difficulty, for example, in knowing that
24 discretionary trusts were established?
25 A. Well, they probably were but I...(INTERJECTION).
26 34 Q. My question is, did you know that they established
27 discretionary trusts?
28 A. No, I wouldn't have known.
29 35 Q. Is this the first time you have learned of it, from

1 me?
2 A. I would suspect that they have from reading papers.
3 36 Q. Tell me what you suspected?
4 A. I suspected that probably trusts were arranged, but
5 I don't know whether they would have been arranged
6 in Dublin and operated from Cayman or operated from
7 ...(INTERJECTION).
8 37 Q. Who would have been the trustee?
9 A. I didn't operate any trusts.
10 38 Q. I am asking you what your knowledge is of the
11 company. Do you know the name of the company,
12 Mr. Stakelum?
13 A. I know that there was Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
14 and it later became known as Ansbacher.
15 39 Q. Let us deal with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust.
16 Do you know what that company did?
17 A. It was a bank primarily. I presumed it was a bank
18 and I presume it would take deposits.
19 40 Q. It took deposits, yes?
20 A. I presume it did the normal banking thing about
21 making loans. But I would have had no direct
22 dealings with that.
23 41 Q. I am coming to that later, Mr. Stakelum. I want you
24 to tell me because we have to report to the court
25 about the affairs of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust.
26 You think it was a bank and it took deposits. Do
27 you know anything else about it?
28 A. I know that John Furze and John Collins were
29 directors of it. I think they were executive
12
1 directors.
2 42 Q. I am asking you what it did, Mr. Stakelum?
3 A. I haven't specific knowledge, Mr. Costello.
4 43 Q. You haven't got specific knowledge?
5 A. No.
6 44 Q. General knowledge?
7 A. From general knowledge I assume it did what banks
8 did: Take deposits, make loans, take securities for
9 loans. You are telling me something about trusts?
10 45 Q. I am not, I want to find out what you know. Do you
11 not know that it carried on a business of managing
12 trusts?
13 A. No, I don't know specifically.
14 4 6 Q. Did you know that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd
15 acted as trustee and managed trusts?
16 A. No.
17 47 Q. You didn't?
18 A. I don't know that, I suspect that.
19 48 Q. You suspect it. When did you first suspect that
20 was so?
21 A. That is very hard to answer. I suppose from
22 discussions back over the years with Mr. Traynor,
23 I would have assumed.
24 4 9 Q. Why would you have assumed it, would he not have
25 told you?
26 A. He may have but there would be no reason for him to
27 come along and say 'Jack, we are operating trusts in
28 the Caymans.'
29 50 Q. You learned from him that he operated trusts in the
13
1 Cayman Islands?
2 A. It might be from general conversation I would glean
3 that those things happened.
4 51 Q. From general conversation with Mr. Traynor?
5 A. Yes .
6 52 Q. That would be when it was founded in the early
7 1970's?
8 A. I presume sometime like that. I don't know when
9 they started operating trusts from or anything like
10 that, so I don't know.
11 53 Q. Try to listen to the question and try to be clear in
12 your answer so far as you can. I am asking you
13 when you first knew that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
14 carried on a trust management business?
15 A. I don't know the answer to that question; it would
16 be information that you might assimilate.
17 54 Q. When did you first know that it carried on this
18 business?
19 A. I would love to help you with an answer.
20 55 Q. Well try. Was it early 1970's?
21 A. Probably sometime in the 1970's.
22 56 Q. So you knew sometime in the 1970's that there was a
23 company called Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. Did
24 you know that Mr. Traynor was the Chairman of it?
25 A. I don't think at that stage, but I would have known
26 that he was Chairman much later on.
28 A. I don't know that. But at one stage they sold out
29 in Cayman to somebody and I think Mr. Traynor

1 finished up with some small percentage.
2 I understood that he was asked to stay on and he
3 became Chairman for a period of time.
4 58 Q. Are you saying that you didn't know he was Chairman
5 until the company sold the shares and he stayed on.
6 Are you saying that before that happened in 1988 --
7 you didn't know that he was Chairman of the company?
8 A. I don't know whether I knew or not, that is the only
9 answer I can give to that.
10 59 Q. I wonder why that is. Did he not tell you that he
11 was Chairman?
12 A. He may have but I have no recollection of that.
13 I have no recollection of that.
14 60 Q. Did you know that he was associated with the company
15 in Cayman?
16 A. Very much so. He used to travel frequently out
17 there.
18 61 Q. Why would he do that if he wasn't associated on the
19 board of directors in some way?
20 A. You asked me was he Chairman.
21 62 Q. He was on the board of directors you think?
22 A. I don't know if I knew that but I may have known
23 that.
24 63 Q. You knew that he was closely associated?
25 A. Very closely associated with it.
26 64 Q. From the very beginning?
27 A. From the very beginning of what?
28 65 Q. We are sparring, Mr. Stakelum. Yourself and myself
29 are sparring. I was just wondering if I could lead

1 you to tell me what you know about Mr. Traynor's
2 involvement so that we won't spar. If you don't
3 answer me, frankly this is going to be a long
4 interview. Please tell me what you know?
5 A. I want to help.
6 66 Q. Then help me.
7 A. Mr. Traynor left Haughey Boland in 1970 or 1971.
8 He was very involved with Guinness & Mahon.
9 67 Q. Just pause there: He was very involved with
10 Guinness & Mahon?
11 A. Yes, he was very involved just before he left, and
12 then he left. After he left, I don't know when he
13 got involved with Cayman or formed Cayman.
14 I suspect from reading a lot that he took a major
15 initiative maybe in the formation of
16 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. I don't know when I
17 became aware of that. Mr. Traynor wasn't likely, no
18 matter how close we were he wouldn't discuss his
19 business things with me where they wouldn't have any
20 interest for me. Obviously over the years I became
21 aware that he was very involved with Cayman. He
22 used to travel there a lot. I don't know when he
23 went on the Board or when he became Chairman.
24 I am aware he was Chairman in the later days.
25 I cannot answer you about when I became aware he was
26 Chairman because I just don't remember. What else
27 can I say about that? I cannot remember when he
28 became involved. I wouldn't know whether
29 Guinness Mahon started in 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974,

1 1975 or 1976. I don't know that.
2 68 Q. No particular date but early in the 1970's?
3 A. Yes, in the 1970's I presume is when he got involved
4 with Guinness & Mahon. So I presume sometime after
5 that he got involved with Cayman.
6 69 Q. At the time you left did you talk to Mr. Traynor
7 about it. Did you discuss this very major change
8 in your professional life. Did you discuss it with
9 him?
10 A. Yes, as a friend I would have.
11 70 Q. Did he indicate to you that as a friend he would try
12 to help you?
13 A. No, that would have been my decision. My leaving
14 Haughey Boland arose from a difference of opinion.
15 71 Q. I am not asking you about that at all. I don't
16 want to go into your private affairs. I want to
17 know, did Mr. Traynor suggest to you that he would
18 be able to help you, put business your way?
19 A. No, and he didn't ever.
20 72 Q. Did you say to him that you would be in touch with
21 him, that you would like his assistance?
22 A. No.
23 73 Q. You didn't?
24 A. No.
25 74 Q. But in fact you did get his assistance for clients
26 of yours?
27 A. Not specifically because I went out on my own
28 though, I was getting his assistance before I left
29 Haughey Boland & Co and would have continued after.

1 But that would have been the same kind of assistance
2 I would have got from people in AIB except that he
3 was closer to me and I knew him better.
4 75 Q. Very well. You knew then that he was closely
5 associated. You didn't know what particular office
6 he held in the company. With Guinness Mahon Cayman
7 Trust, you knew that it was a bank and you knew that
8 it was involved in establishing trusts. Did you
9 know that the trusts it established were
10 discretionary trusts?
11 A. That is not my language at all.
12 76 Q. Did you know; did you hear that. It might not be
13 your language -- it is lawyer's language -- but did
14 you know that they were discretionary trusts?
15 A. I don't know whether you are telling me that all the
16 trusts that Guinness Mahon were involved in were
17 discretionary trusts. I presume there were trusts
18 of all kinds.
19 77 Q. Do you know the difference between a discretionary
20 trust and an ordinary trust?
21 A. It gives discretion to the trustees.
22 78 Q. In that they have absolute discretion to do what
23 they like with the trust funds?
24 A. That is a bit out of my league.
25 79 Q. Have you come across it?
26 A. I have heard it before.
27 80 Q. Have any of your clients ever had discretionary
28 trusts ?
29 A. I don't think so. The only things I might know is

1 if they died or something and there would be letters
2 of wishes with discretionary trusts. I probably
3 came across a few of those.
4 81 Q. Did you yourself ever have one?
5 A. No.
6 82 Q. In relation to the activities of Guinness & Mahon
7 and the establishment of Guinness Mahon Cayman
8 Trust, do you know that Guinness & Mahon and
9 Mr. Traynor in particular then established
10 subsidiaries in the Channel Islands to do the same
11 work as Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust had been doing
13 A. I don't know that he established them but I would
14 have met somebody from a company called "Sovereign
15 something" at a golf outing of Guinness & Mahon
16 sometime and there was some connection with
17 Guinness & Mahon, but I am not too sure what it
18 . . . (INTERJECTION) .
19 83 Q. Are you telling me, Mr. Stakelum, that Mr. Traynor
20 did not tell you that they had established
21 subsidiaries in the Channel Islands?
22 A. I am telling you that I am not aware that he
23 certainly told me that specifically.
24 84 Q. You either remember it or you don't remember it.
25 Do you remember Mr. Traynor telling you that they
26 established...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. As clear as that I don't remember.
28 85 Q. Did you learn it subsequently?
29 A. I don't know about the subsidiaries. Subsidiary has
19
1 a connotation to me as an accountant that somebody
2 owns something. I don't know whether they owned
3 subsidiaries in the Channel Islands. But I am aware
4 that they had connections in the Channel Islands.
5 86 Q. What were the connections?
6 A. There was the thing that is mentioned of
7 College Trustees. I am not sure that I read it in
8 your documentation that...(INTERJECTION).
9 87 Q. Let us be clear. We sent you particulars of
10 College Trustees. Had you never heard of it before
11 that?
12 A. I had heard the name College Trustees.
13 88 Q. Let us get back to that; that is what we are talking
14 about?
15 A. I am not aware that it was a subsidiary.
16 89 Q. It was an association?
17 A. Yes .
18 90 Q. Guinness & Mahon had an association with
19 Channel Islands?
20 A. Absolutely I would have been aware of that because I
21 would have used the facility.
22 91 Q. What facility would you have used?
23 A. I referred to it in my notes to you in connection
24 with Gerry Keane.
25 92 Q. What facility would you have used?
26 A. Guinness & Mahon provided a company for me from I
27 presume Guernsey for the use of Mr. Keane, so they
28 obviously had a connection.
29 93 Q. Then you knew about it?

1 A. Yes. I don't know what subsidiary it is. I knew
2 there was a connection.
3 94 Q. Tell me then what you knew about the connections
4 that Guinness & Mahon Ireland and Mr. Traynor had in
5 the Channel Islands?
6 A. In connection with Mr. Keane at a stage where he
7 wished to purchase a residency and where he had no
8 facility or borrowing capacity at the time but had
9 some funds abroad, I advised him if he wished to
10 maintain the confidentiality. And the only way was
11 to use a foreign company.
12 95 Q. Where did he have the funds?
13 A. He had the funds placed with me and in turn I had
14 placed them with Mr. Traynor.
15 96 Q. Where were they then?
16 A. I don't know that but I always suspected until
17 proceedings arose in recent times that they were in
18 Cayman but I am not sure of that now.
19 97 Q. Mr. Keane gave you funds. You gave them to
20 Mr. Traynor. Mr. Traynor put them somewhere and you
21 thought they were in Cayman?
22 A. That is right.
23 98 Q. I am asking you about the Channel Islands?
24 A. They then provided a company. I asked Mr. Traynor
25 and he arranged for a company to be provided.
26 99 Q. What year are we talking about?
27 A. About 1988.
28 100 Q. Are you telling me that before that, you had never
29 heard of College Trustees?

1 A. I don't recall the name but I think I met a guy from
2 over...(INTERJECTION).
3 101 Q. Let us continue this rather lengthy dialogue by
4 asking you some more detailed questions. Had you
5 never heard of College Trustees. Companies that
6 Guinness & Mahon were associated with in the
7 Channel Islands -- when did you first know that?
8 A. Probably at the same time I would have heard about
9 the Cayman, I don't know.
10 102 Q. In the early 1970's?
11 A. Middle to late 1970's maybe.
12 103 Q. Middle to late 1970's?
13 A. I went out on my own just after...(INTERJECTION).
14 104 Q. Answer my question. This is the middle to late
15 1970's that you first realised or understood that
16 Guinness & Mahon had association companies in the
17 Channel Islands?
18 A. I cannot be as specific as that. I understand that
19 I am under oath here and I cannot be as specific as
20 that. I am not sure when I learned that. That is
21 not wanting to be unhelpful, I am just not sure.
22 105 Q. You want to be helpful?
23 A. I do, absolutely.
24 106 Q. Tell me what you understood these companies that
25 Guinness & Mahon were associated with in the
26 Channel Islands. What were they?
27 A. Evidently one was College Trustees. I don't know
28 how long that is in existence.
29 107 Q. That was one company. Any other companies?
22
1 A. I think from your documentation there is a
2 Guinness & Mahon something or other, maybe Guinness
3 & Mahon Channel Islands. I may have heard of that
4 years ago. But I don't recall. And I presume if
5 there was a Guinness & Mahon Channel Islands, it
6 probably dealt in banking situations and maybe
7 College Trustees acted in secretarial situations.
8 I am not positive about either of those things.
9 There was a Sovereign something or other. I met I
10 think the managing director of that at a
11 Guinness & Mahon golf outing. I don't know what
12 they did. They may have done trusts, secretarial
13 work. I don't know what they might have done.
14 108 Q. Did Mr. Traynor never talk to you about these
15 companies ?
16 A. No.
17 109 Q. Never?
18 A. No, the only time he talked to me in detail was one
19 time he came around talking at a time when he had
20 acquired or had a small percentage of a company in
21 Cayman. He talked about disengaging himself from
22 the Cayman.
23 110 Q. I am talking about the Channel Island companies?
24 A. I have no recollection of him talking to me about
25 the Channel Islands.
26 111 Q. Did he explain to you why they had to be
27 established?
28 A. No.
29 112 Q. Did you know why?

1 A. No.
2 113 Q. Did you know that there were exchange control
3 difficulties ?
4 A. No.
5 114 Q. Did you ever hear that?
6 A. That he had exchange ...(INTERJECTION).
7 115 Q. No, that there were exchange control difficulties
8 which meant that Guinness & Mahon decided to
9 establish subsidiaries in the Channel Islands?
10 A. I wouldn't know that.
11 116 Q. I am wondering did he ever tell you that?
12 A. No, never.
13 117 Q. Did you ever ask him why they had established
14 companies in the Channel Islands?
15 A. No, I don't know that he established companies in
16 the Channel Islands. Guinness & Mahon was there
17 long before Des Traynor and maybe they had them.
18 118 Q. Alright, I withdraw that. I apologise to you for
19 confusing you. Try now and get it clear. Did
20 Mr. Traynor explain to you why Guinness & Mahon
21 Ireland established subsidiaries or companies in the
22 Channel Islands?
23 A. No.
24 119 Q. He didn't?
25 A. No.
26 120 Q. Apart from Mr. Traynor, who was a friend of yours,
27 with whom did you have dealings when you went to
28 Guinness & Mahon on behalf of clients?
29 A. Probably Maurice 0'Kelly but that would have been

1 sometime later when he joined Guinness & Mahon.
2 Definitely Pat O'Dwyer who was a banking manager.
3 Probably Martin Keane. Michael Pender.
4 John Guinness at one stage. I had dealings with
5 William Forwood at a later stage but it hadn't
6 anything to do with his role in Guinness & Mahon.
7 In fact he might have even left Guinness & Mahon at
8 the time. I cannot remember any other names.
9 121 Q. You cannot remember any other names.
10 A. If they were put to me I might.
11 122 Q. Try. I will put a name to you in a minute. But we
12 Will see if you can remember it without me putting
13 it to you?
14 A. There was John Guinness; he was Chairman.
15 There was Des Traynor himself certainly. There was
16 Maurice 0'Kelly. But not much dealing with
17 Maurice 0'Kelly; that would have been much later.
18 William Forwood was in Guinness & Mahon but while he
19 was there I don't think I had any dealings with him.
20 But I had dealings with him subsequently.
21 Martin Keane. Padraig Collery.
22 123 Q. Padraig Collery, you had dealings with him?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 124 Q. Tell us about that. Do you know what his role was?
25 A. My view of it was that he was a kind of an assistant
26 to Des Traynor.
27 125 Q. How often would you have met him then?
28 A. Several times over the years.
29 126 Q. Surely more than that, Mr. Stakelum, surely more

1 than several times over the years?
2 A. I thought several was a lot.
3 127 Q. A lot of times. Over a year how often would you
4 have met him?
5 A. That would depend upon what client was doing what
6 and where and when.
7 128 Q. Taking an average, how often would you go into
8 Guinness & Mahon and see some of these people.
9 Once a week?
10 A. There could be times there when you could be in
11 three times a week and then you might not be in for
12 three months. When Des Traynor was in Guinness &
13 Mahon I would have had little, if anything, to do
14 with Padraig Collery because I would have been
15 dealing mostly with Guinness & Mahon.
16 129 Q. With Des Traynor?
17 A. With Des Traynor, yes.
18 130 Q. When you would go in three times a week for
19 particular clients, that would be Des Traynor you
20 would be seeing?
21 A. Mostly my dealings would be where Mr. Traynor would
22 be the Principal. But if you were ironing out
23 financial arrangements or something, you could be
24 dealing with Martin Keane and going back for further
25 information.
26 131 Q. When Mr. Traynor left the bank you were then dealing
27 with Mr. Collery, is that it?
28 A. Yes. I can think of a couple of specific
29 situations with Mr. Collery thereafter.

1 132 Q. In relation to your association then with
2 Guinness & Mahon, you have described your general
3 consultancy work. Is that the relationship you had
4 with Guinness & Mahon, that you went to Guinness &
5 Mahon to organise financial assistance, loans of one
6 sort or another for clients?
7 A. That's right.
8 133 Q. This would have been a situation where sometimes you
9 would be in regularly three times a week and
10 sometimes a gap of months would elapse, is that the
11 position?
12 A. Absolutely.
13 134 Q. Was this an important connection from your point of
14 view, your connection with Guinness & Mahon and the
15 fact that you were able to get loans for clients on
16 behalf of clients from Guinness & Mahon. Was this
17 an important aspect?
18 A. It would be very important. When you are
19 endeavouring to get loans the personal connection is
20 of the utmost importance, yes.
21 135 Q. I would have thought so.
22 A. It is most important.
23 136 Q. Would I be correct in saying that in most cases you
24 would have first gone to Guinness & Mahon to see if
25 you could get loans for your clients rather than to
26 some other financial institutions?
27 A. No, I don't think that would be correct necessarily.
28 The clients would probably of their own volition
29 have their own bank. You would deal with their own
1 bankers. You wouldn't switch bankers lightly.
2 137 Q. If the client needed funds and wasn't able to get
3 it, you would advise them and you would advise to
4 try Guinness & Mahon, would you?
5 A. I might. You would generally try at the bank where
6 they were doing business. If there was more
7 awkward financing, with the good connection in
8 Guinness & Mahon, certainly in the earlier days I
9 would have used Guinness & Mahon a fair bit for
10 clients because I had this entree to Des Traynor and
11 you could talk to the managing director.
12 138 Q. That is what I would have thought. In relation to
13 them requiring security for loans did you come
14 across any suggestions made in relation to security
15 for the use of Ansbacher deposits or deposits by
16 Guinness & Mahon in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust in
17 the bank or otherwise?
18 A. In dealing with the bank, I would want to emphasise
19 that you wouldn't get anything out of Des Traynor
20 that wasn't proper banking approval. Because I
21 knew him there weren't any concessions that would be
22 made to me. He would tell me where to go with a
23 proposition that wasn't bankable more quickly than
24 he might a stranger.
25 139 Q. I am asking you about security?
26 A. I am leading into that, Mr. Costello. On the
27 question of security, I think what you are referring
28 to is a question of back-to-backs.
29 I certainly would have had deposits of clients
28
1 there. I don't have recollections of back-to-back
2 accounts -- although I am well aware of them --
3 except for one in connection with Mr. Keane that I
4 referred to. I have to say, I cannot be absolutely
5 sure that is the sole back-to-back one because
6 certain things have been suggested at stages along
7 the way. I was personally opposed to ever utilising
8 a back-to-back situation.
9 140 Q. Why was that?
10 A. Because I had to deal with the client, some on a
11 day-to-day basis. There was a great tendency that
12 if anyone operated a back-to-back situation the
13 client believed that there was no money due. If he
14 had £100,000 and he borrowed £100,000 up front, the
15 danger was that he gets into thinking that the
16 £100,000 doesn't have to be paid back because it is
17 backed. That is a disastrous financial situation.
18 141 Q. I think you understand from our letter and probably
19 from elsewhere that I am not just concerned about
20 ordinary back-to-back situations, I am concerned
21 about Ansbacher deposits being used as security for
22 loans given to your clients?
23 A. That is what I refer to as back-to-back, that is the
24 security on the backing to the front loan.
25 142 Q. But the security was an Ansbacher deposit?
27 143 Q. When you are talking about back-to-back loans, we
28 are being specific, we are talking about clients who
29 would have had a security for loans which Guinness &
29
1 Mahon had given; a deposit which was in the name of
2 Ansbacher in its former name, perhaps as Guinness
3 Mahon Cayman Trust and later Ansbacher?
4 A. From my point of view it would only be let us say
5 the funds that I would have had placed with
6 Mr. Traynor. I wouldn't know whether they were
7 Ansbacher or College Trustees or Jersey or what.
8 144 Q. But they were outside the jurisdiction?
9 A. That's right.
10 145 Q. What we are then talking about is funds which you
11 had deposited on behalf of clients with Mr. Traynor
12 which were out of the jurisdiction and which were
13 being used as security for loans to your clients?
14 A. I am only aware of it in one situation. There may
15 have been others but I certainly don't recall.
16 146 Q. What we are discussing now are loans which were
17 secured in the way we have been discussing. But it
18 does appear from what you have been telling me that
19 part of the service that you gave to your clients
20 was arranging the transfer of funds to Mr. Traynor
21 who deposited them offshore, is that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 147 Q. When did that start?
24 A. I am inclined to believe 1976 but it might have been
25 1977. I would have started on my own in late 1975.
26 I only had one year of operations in 1975.
27 148 Q. Would you tell us what the arrangement in a general
28 way was with Mr. Traynor. How was this service
29 operated?
1 A. If I can take a typical example, a client may have
2 asked me to look after funds that in almost all
3 cases that I am aware of were already abroad.
4 I would have asked Mr. Traynor to advise me where
5 the funds might be transferred to, and then the
6 client would issue instructions when I got the
7 tracking route or account name or code or whatever
8 they might be.
9 149 Q. Could you not be a little bit more specific because
10 you know these terms, I don't know. Would you mind
11 explaining them to us?
12 A. If the client wished to place the funds with me and
13 they were in some Royal Bank of Scotland in Jersey
14 or wherever.
15 150 Q. This is client's of yours?
16 A. Yes .
17 151 Q. Why would they want to place their funds with you?
18 A. They might be unhappy about monitoring the funds in
19 the sense of what interest rate...(INTERJECTION).
20 152 Q. But you were not a bank?
21 A. No.
22 153 Q. They were asking your advice as to where to put the
23 funds ?
24 A. They were asking me whether I could monitor those
25 funds on their behalf.
26 154 Q. Monitor is a word you use; I don't understand it.
27 Your clients have funds and they come into you.
28 What do they ask you to do?
29 A. They would say 'We have funds offshore' wherever
31
1 they might have been 'Can you look after these funds
2 for me.'
3 155 Q. "Can you look after these funds." What did that
4 mean?
5 A. Would you endeavour to get the best interest rate.
6 Would you monitor the funds.
7 156 Q. Take it slowly. Would you endeavour to get the best
8 interest rate. Were they asking you to change
9 where their funds were into some other financial
10 institution?
11 A. I don't think they would come in and say 'We have
12 funds. Will you change them for some other
13 financial institution.' I think a discussion would
14 have arose with them that they would have advised me
15 that they had £X in funds and say 'Can you look
16 after these funds on my behalf.'
17 157 Q. What does that mean?
18 A. It means that they might not want to correspond
19 directly with whatever foreign bank they were using.
20 They might not want to get mail received from
21 foreign banks on the basis of monthly statements.
22 They wouldn't feel that necessarily competent about
23 looking at whether the funds should be placed
24 one month or three months or six months. And that
25 they would like me to look after those factors.
26 158 Q. What did you do then?
27 A. I would probably advise them at some stage that
28 there would be a facility available through
29 Guinness & Mahon.
32
1 159 Q. You then contacted Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. Yes.
3 160 Q. You used the word "facility." What does that mean
4 in this connection?
5 A. It means I would probably have contacted
6 Des Traynor. I would have said 'I have a client
7 -- for the most part he wouldn't know who my clients
8 were -- that wishes to have funds monitored abroad
9 by me.'
10 161 Q. Don't used the word "monitored" because I don't
11 understand what it means. You have a client.
12 What is he to do?
13 A. Des Traynor is to give me an account number, a
14 reference, a bank where the client who would have
15 the funds would have to give instructions to his
16 bank to have the funds moved. Those funds --
17 I don't understand these things either -- might be
18 moved to a receiving bank.
19 162 Q. This is very important. If you don't understand it,
20 I understand even less. Let us take a typical
21 client with funds in Jersey. You tell Mr. Traynor
22 that this client is dissatisfied. What does
23 Mr. Traynor then do?
24 A. He gives me coded references. I don't remember but
25 it might well be a reference to a bank account in
26 London for so and so, for the account of so and so.
27 163 Q. What was the bank?
28 A. Mr. Costello, I don't remember and I am sure those
29 instructions would have varied over the years.
33
1 164 Q. What was the account, in whose name was the account
2 to be placed?
3 A. I have a difficulty answering that question, not
4 wanting to be uncooperative. All I am saying is
5 that Mr. Traynor would be seeking to get the funds
6 under his control and there is a transfer process.
7 165 Q. You must have known the financial institution in
8 which your clients's funds were going to be placed?
9 A. The only answer I can give to that is I don't recall
10 because over the years they probably used different
11 financial institutions.
12 166 Q. Tell me some of them that were used that
13 Mr. Traynor would have told you about. Give me the
14 names of some of those, Mr. Stakelum?
15 A. It is very difficult under oath, but let us try
16 Guinness & Mahon London for a start. I don't know.
17 But if it was Guinness & Mahon London, it would
18 probably be account of so and so, reference so and
19 so etc. etc.. But I am not absolutely positive of
20 that. It could also vary depending on the currency.
21 If it was dollars it might be something else.
22 167 Q. What other financial institution did he tell you
23 that the money was going to be deposited in?
24 A. I don't know, I just don't know. It would be a
25 once-off instruction. I don't know. It probably
26 would depend on where the funds were coming from
27 too.
28 168 Q. Do your best. I am sure you are under strain,
29 Mr. Stakelum. Tell me the numbers of other
34
1 institutions that clients of yours had money
2 deposited as a result of your contact with
3 Mr. Traynor?
4 A. I just cannot answer that. That is not wanting to
5 be uncooperative, I just cannot remember.
6 169 Q. Why can't you remember?
7 A. How do I answer a question of why I cannot remember?
8 170 Q. For example, were any of the funds lodged in any of
9 the Guinness & Mahon subsidiaries in Cayman or in
10 the Channel Islands?
11 A. I don't think so. But I think the funds would be
12 initially lodged somewhere maybe for the account of
13 Guinness Mahon Cayman, reference number so and so,
14 maybe for the account in Guinness & Mahon London for
15 Guinness & Mahon Dublin. I am not too sure.
16 You would get specific instructions.
17 171 Q. It may have been the account of Guinness & Mahon in
18 Dublin or Guinness & Mahon in London. Was this the
19 offshore bank we are talking about, Guinness & Mahon
20 Cayman Trust, the Ansbacher bank. They would have
21 been lodged in its account in Dublin or lodged in
22 its account in London?
23 A. It may well have been, I don't remember.
24 172 Q. But you are under oath now?
25 A. That's right.
26 173 Q. You are under oath. Can you say that funds your
27 client had asked you in relation to assistance were
28 lodged in an account in the name of Guinness Mahon
29 Cayman Trust in Dublin or in London?

1 A. I cannot remember. I suspect that some of the
2 instructions given at the time would be what was at
3 the best requirements of the Guinness & Mahon bank,
4 what their internal ...(INTERJECTION).
5 174 Q. A few minutes ago you to said to me that you gave
6 Mr. Traynor instructions and that you transferred
7 funds to him and they were transferred offshore, is
8 that not right. Didn't you say that to me a few
9 minutes ago?
10 A. They were probably offshore already. I thought we
11 were talking about a client...(INTERJECTION).
12 175 Q. They were offshore already you think?
13 A. Yes, most of the funds were offshore already.
14 176 Q. All the funds of these clients we are talking about
15 were offshore. Did you ever have clients coming in
16 to you with funds that weren't offshore?
17 A. Yes .
18 177 Q. What would happen then?
19 A. At different stages, in the early stages I think
20 Irish pounds could be converted without any problem
21 into Sterling. It is one and the same in the
22 1970's. Then they could be moved from Sterling.
23 178 Q. Were they put offshore, the funds?
24 A. Yes .
25 179 Q. Where?
26 A. All I know is that with Des Traynor I would have
27 assumed Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, later
28 Ansbacher. But it could well have been
29 College Trustees or Guinness & Mahon Guernsey.
36
1 180 Q. One or the other?
2 A. Yes, I assume one or the other.
3 181 Q. Did any of your clients to your knowledge establish
4 trusts with the assistance of Guinness & Mahon with
5 Mr. Traynor either in the Cayman Islands or in the
6 Channel Islands?
7 A. Not to my knowledge.
8 182 Q. None of them told you that they had done this?
9 A. No.
10 183 Q. Mr. Traynor didn't tell you that he was going to
11 suggest this to them?
12 A. No.
13 184 Q. You are pretty certain on that or are you doubtful
14 about it?
15 A. I am not aware certainly of any clients that
16 established such trusts. I am not aware of any
17 that did.
18 185 Q. If they didn't establish trusts, you are aware of
19 clients who transferred funds offshore?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 186 Q. We will break now for a cup of coffee,
22 Mr. Stakelum, for about ten minutes or so.
23
25
26
27
28
29
37
1 INTERVIEW WITH MR. STAKELUM CONTINUED AS FOLLOWS:
3 A. I want to clarify something Mr. Hayes has brought to
4 my mind. In the last bit of evidence I may not have
5 made it clear that when I was talking about the
6 transfer of funds to a bank, I was really talking
7 about a receiving bank where they have what they
8 call a "routing." If you are transferring funds
9 from A to B there is often an intermediary bank that
10 takes the routing of the funds. That is what I was
11 referring to that I didn't know. The instructions
12 could vary each time on that. I wouldn't have known
13 what the specific instructions were any day. They
14 would be transferred from wherever the client had
15 the funds on his instructions to a bank routing.
16 Then they would come under the control of
17 Des Traynor and they would transfer them on further.
18 That is the norm.
19 187 Q. I have no further questions to ask you,
20 Mr. Stakelum at the moment. Ms. Mackey now would
21 like to ask you some questions.
22 188 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Stakelum, I would
23 like to ask you some
24 questions about Ms. Banotti. Do you have a copy of
25 your response to our letter?
26 A. I do.
27 189 Q. If I could refer you to that. That is your letter
28 of 11th October (EXHIBIT 1)?
29 A. That's right.
38
1 190 Q. You say under the heading
2 "Part One:
3 Having read Ms. Banotti's evidence to

you..."
4
5 I will just recall to your mind that the evidence
6 related to three cheques from the European
7 Parliament made payable to Ms. Bannotti which
8 somehow or other ended up in the account of
9 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust re College Trustees in
10 Guinness & Mahon. Ms. Bannotti told us when we
11 asked her about them that in fact she had no
12 Ansbacher account but that your firm, BEL, looked
13 after her office and administration here in Dublin
14 after her election to the European Parliament and
15 that in the course of that she must have passed to
16 you these European Parliament cheques, which were
17 cheques for expense incurred by her, in order to
18 reimburse you for services you carried out for her.
19
20 You say:
21 "Having read Ms. Banotti's evidence to

you I can confirm that her evidence in
22 relation to her contractual
relationship with my company is
23 correct."
24 First of all I would like to ask you a bit about
25 that contractual relationship. When it began first
26 of all. Did it begin before she became a member of
27 the European Parliament?
28 A. No. I am not sure on dates but I guess she might
29 have become a member in 1984?
39
1 191 Q. It was, yes?
2 A. It would have been immediately at that time.
3 Evidently in the European structure it was and still
4 is necessary for the Members of the European
5 Parliament to have a secretarial company, which is
6 the company to which expenses are paid by the
7 European Parliament. They discharge the particular
8 expenses to the individuals that would be aides to .
9 Ms. Banotti. There was actually a signed contract
10 I know in existence at the time. Whether that was
11 repeated each session or not, I am not sure.
12 192 Q. A signed contract between?
13 A. Between Business Enterprises Ltd and Mary Banotti.
14 193 Q. Can I ask you how she first came in contact with you
15 or how you met her?
16 A. Yes. It was through a place called the
17 Rutland Centre which is an alcohol treatment centre.
18 Fr. Short was the founder of that organisation.
19 He is dead since. I worked with his brother in
20 Kennedy Crowley & Co. The brother rang me and said
21 Fr. Short needed somebody, he was getting involved
22 in some subject with the brothers in Donegal.
23 Fr. Short rang me. He came up to the house to
24 explain his concept of a treatment centre. It was a
25 different modality of treatment. He said we are
26 having a meeting in Ms. Banotti's house.
27 I didn't know Mrs. Banotti at the time. Five or six
28 of us met in her house. She had a small house.
29 194 Q. Not to cut you short, Mr. Stakelum, but perhaps we
40
1 can short circuit this a little bit. You met her
2 through something that had no connection with the
3 business at all in the beginning?
4 A. None whatsoever.
5 195 Q. Was this some long time before her election?
6 A. Yes. The reason I would know that is because I
7 think we started the Rutland Centre in 1978.
8 196 Q. You had known her for some long time prior to this?
9 A. I had known her for five or six years prior to
10 before she became...(INTERJECTION).
11 197 Q. Did she then upon her election ask you to look after
12 her office administration?
13 A. That's right.
14 198 Q. That is how that began?
15 A. Yes. There would have been a reason in the sense
16 that it lead a little into her personal finances in
17 the sense that one night after a meeting she rang
18 me. She was very distraught; she had a break-in in
19 her house. I said 'You have to leave the area.'
20 I would have helped her organise a home loan in AIB
21 in Sandymount.
22 199 Q. You were dealing with her personally. She was one
23 of your clients in your capacity as a financial
24 adviser?
25 A. I don't know that she would go down as a client, she
26 would go down as a friend. I just arranged a loan
27 for her at that stage, but it was kind of natural
28 that when she went into the Parliament and when she
29 was looking for somebody she came to us.
41
1 200 Q. Was that the only financial advice you gave her
2 prior to taking on this business?
3 A. Absolutely.
4 201 Q. This arrangement that you had for looking after her
5 office and administration costs, did you pay the
6 members of staff who were on her payroll on her
7 behalf. Was that how it was done?
9 202 Q. Did you then send her an invoice setting out
10 whatever your expenses and costs had been and your
11 own fees?
12 A. No.
13 203 Q. What was the arrangement?
14 A. In the beginning there was quite a lot of work. We
15 were writing up her cheque books and things like
16 that.
17 204 Q. All I am asking you now is, how did you get
18 reimbursed. What did you do. Did you invoice her?
19 A. She used the word "reimbursed." I would have felt
20 that she would have paid us in advance mostly.
21 Certainly that would have been the case for the last
22 number of years. Whether in the beginning I would
23 have been paid? We wouldn't generally pay out
24 money on behalf of clients and recoup it later. We
25 would recoup the money and pay.
26 205 Q. I can understand that, they were the expenses you
27 incurred. But did you not charge her a fee for
28 doing this?
29 A. I did not charge her a fee; she was a close personal
42
1 friend. After a while, some years later my
2 colleague who took it over, I think she paid him
3 something. I don't think I ever charged a fee as
4 such.
5 206 Q. You didn't invoice her. Your memory is that she
6 paid you in advance. How did she normally pay you.
7 What was the arrangement. Was it by cheque?
8 A. I brought some stuff from Business Enterprises Ltd.
9 I have a copy of her account. I only have this
10 from about 1991 but it does show the kind of
11 transactions for the last eight or nine years.
12 207 Q. That would be useful.
13 A. It is the only copy I have.
14 208 Q. We can make a copy of it now and give it back to
15 you. (EXHIBIT 4) SAME HANDED
16 A. Obviously looking at that, we did pay sometimes in
17 advance. There are some red figures there.
18 209 Q. We understand from Ms. Banotti that for the purposes
19 of office expenses and administration costs of
20 MEP's, the European Parliament would transfer money
21 directly into a bank account in the country of that
22 particular MEP and that she had such a bank account
23 here in Ireland. Presumably, normally you would
24 have been paid from that bank account. Would that
25 be the case?
26 A. I am guessing so. I wouldn't be close to it.
27 I presume so and this may show that.
28 210 Q. On this particular occasion Ms. Banotti can only
29 explain the appearance of these three cheques in the
43
1 GMCT account by saying that she must have passed
2 these to you in the course of paying you or
3 reimbursing you for your services or for your
4 expenses incurred on her behalf. Can you recollect
5 that happening?
6 A. No. I think I said that I don't know how I got
7 those cheques. But I cannot at all recollect it.
8 But I would have to say that the probability is that
9 she was correct. What I believe may have happened
10 is that it wasn't paying any of her expenses but she
11 could have been in my office and saying 'I am short
12 of money. I don't have any money.' I could have
13 given her cash for them and then lodged them because
14 they were a foreign...(INTERJECTION).
15 211 Q. She may essentially have exchanged them?
16 A. For cash, yes. I don't know that but I suspect that
17 is the most likely answer.
18 212 Q. You say that in such case you must have lodged them.
19 Lodged them where?
20 A. What I am saying is that I haven't any recollection
21 or knowledge of that but I am told that they were
22 lodged on the assumption that she gave them to me.
23 213 Q. I understand what you are saying, Mr. Stakelum.
24 What I am trying to get at is where would you in
25 such a situation, if it arose hypothetically, lodge
26 them?
27 A. I would have sent them down to Guinness & Mahon.
28 214 Q. To Mr. Traynor?
29 A. Yes.
44
1 215 Q. Where would you do that?
2 A. Because they were foreign currency. That was
3 foreign currency that you might treasure as opposed
4 to Irish pounds.
5 216 Q. You would give any foreign currency that came your
6 way to Mr. Traynor to exchange for you?
7 A. Yes. It would be rare.
8 217 Q. But why would you do that rather than exchange it in
9 the ordinary way. Why give it to Mr. Traynor?
10 A. Because I would have clients that might be giving me
11 Irish pounds that would want the foreign currency.
12 I could exchange that with them.
13 218 Q. You could exchange it with the client?
14 A. If I had the foreign currency I could.
15 219 Q. But in this case you gave it to Mr. Traynor?
16 A. But that kept it in foreign currency. That kept it
17 available.
18 220 Q. For you?
19 A. To exchange for a client who would want to change
20 money.
21 221 Q. By giving it to Mr. Traynor it kept it available for
22 you?
23 A. Yes. If I lodged it into a local bank it would have
24 been converted back into Irish pounds. But by
25 giving it to Mr. Traynor you kept it in a foreign
26 currency.
27 222 Q. In other words, you were giving it to Mr. Traynor to
28 keep for you essentially, is that it?
29 A. Yes, it would be general to keep it for clients that

1 would want...(INTERJECTION).
2 223 Q. But in your name?
3 A. He never kept an account in my name. I don't know
4 that he kept the account.
5 224 Q. What I am trying to get at is, was this money that
6 you felt you could again access if you wished in
7 foreign currency?
8 A. Yes.
9 225 Q. Therefore, it was going to be kept in your name or
10 on your behalf; it was your money, is that it.
11 If you had exchanged your Irish money for
12 Ms. Banotti's Belgian Francs they were now your
13 Belgian Francs?
14 A. Right.
15 226 Q. Can you explain how they ended up in a GMCT
16 account?
17 A. That would be their thing. I don't know where they
18 would use it. That could be College Trustees or
19 Cayman Trust or whatever place they kept the foreign
20 funds. I wouldn't necessarily know. I would have
21 assumed incidentally that it was Cayman Trust.
22 227 Q. You would have assumed that money you gave to
23 Mr. Traynor for you would go into Guinness Mahon
24 Cayman Trust?
25 A. Foreign currency, yes.
26 228 Q. Why would you assume that?
27 A. Because I assumed that is where he kept all the
28 foreign currency.
29 229 Q. To understand what you are saying, you would assume
46
1 that if you gave foreign currency to Mr. Traynor to
2 look after for you, he would put it into Cayman.
3 Is that what you are saying?
4 A. That is what I am saying, yes.
5 230 Q. In other words, Mr. Traynor would keep for you money
6 in Cayman?
7 A. Yes, I am using "for me" in the loosest sense.
8 231 Q. How can you use the phrase "for you" in a loose
9 sense?
10 A. Because I would have clients anxious to get foreign
11 currency.
12 232 Q. I understand that.
13 A. If he had money in foreign currency available, then
14 they could access that by giving me Irish pounds.
15 233 Q. I understand that. But the point is, this is your
16 money that we are talking about now?
17 A. Okay.
18 234 Q. What you would expect if you gave your money which
19 happened to be in foreign currency to Mr. Traynor,
20 he would put it into a Cayman account?
21 A. Yes. Into a foreign currency deposit account,
22 probably Cayman.
23 235 Q. I don't have any further questions, Mr. Stakelum.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO Mr. Rowan would like to
26 ask you some questions now
27 about Mr. Keane.
28 236 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Stakelum, can I take
29 you back to the statement
47
1 that you sent us please, the one of 22nd September
2 (EXHIBIT 2). That deals with Mr. Keane's affairs
3 in two places at paragraph 4 and paragraph 7.
4 Perhaps to start, can you tell us when Mr. Keane
5 became a client first?
6 A. I suspect in the early 1980's.
7 237 Q. Why did he become a client of yours?
8 A. He was introduced to me through another client, as I
9 recall on a golf course. I don't recall whether he
10 rang me or said to me at the time at the golf 'I
11 would like to come and talk to you' but he obviously
12 did come and talk to me.
13 238 Q. What services did he explain he needed from you?
14 A. His initial services were loans that he required in
15 connection with ... He bought out a partner that he
16 had. As I recall in his company here he had 45% of
17 the company. A non-active partner had 45%. There
18 was an employee he had who had 10%. He wished to
19 buy out the partner. That was my recollection of
20 the first transaction with Mr. Keane.
21 239 Q. So he came to you and said can you arrange a loan?
22 A. That's right.
23 240 Q. How did you approach dealing with that request?
24 A. I know that I would have raised a loan through
25 Guinness & Mahon with him. I have a feeling it was
26 in the order of £40,000.
27 241 Q. When you were looking at the client's needs,
28 presumably you could have raised a loan of that sort
29 through any number of banks. Why did you select
48
1 Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. Obviously I cannot remember exactly but his company,
3 Gerry Keane Ltd, would have been dealing with and
4 still deals with AIB Ltd. But AIB Ltd would have
5 been supplying the needs for the company, the
6 trading facilities overdraft. This would be not a
7 company item, it would have been a personal item to
8 buy shares in the company. That is the only reason
9 that I can think of for using Guinness & Mahon at
10 that time.
11 242 Q. But you could perhaps have used Bank of Ireland?
12 A. Yes, I could but I have very ready access to the top
13 echelon in Guinness & Mahon where it was easy to
14 discuss unusual items of financing if you like.
15 It was a bit unusual in the terms of the banking
16 sector to be going from AIB to Bank of Ireland in
17 connection with the shares of the company. It is a
18 bit unusual. Guinness & Mahon were a more
19 investment orientated bank.
20 243 Q. When you went to Guinness & Mahon and they agreed to
21 advance this loan to Mr. Keane, did they require
22 terms, securities, that sort of thing. Can you
23 remember broadly?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 244 Q. Was it an unsecured loan?
26 A. I don't remember that. But see if this would be
27 helpful: Sometime after that, I don't know how long
28 after that, he required another loan. He was
29 separating from his wife. My knowledge or my
49
1 memory was that he had to borrow about another
2 £40,000. I don't know whether the first one was
3 secured or not but Mr. Keane had become a depositor
4 with me at some stage and had offshore funds.
5 So the extreme likelihood is that whether at the
6 outset of the first loan or at the outset of the
7 second loan or somewhere in between, he would have
8 acquired some offshore deposits with Des Traynor
9 through me.
10 245 Q. May I just stop you there. How soon after you
11 became an adviser to Mr. Keane would he have started
12 to have offshore deposits?
13 A. I just wouldn't remember that.
14 246 Q. Was it soon or was it some years?
15 A. I suspect it would have been relatively soon
16 afterwards.
17 247 Q. On the one hand Mr. Keane was borrowing money to buy
18 a partner in his company out and on the other hand
19 he was putting money offshore on deposit?
20 A. Right.
21 248 Q. Is there a contradiction there?
22 A. No.
23 249 Q. Can you elucidate on that?
24 A. Because he would have wanted to maintain
25 confidentiality about funds offshore and he couldn't
26 do that using those funds that would be offshore to
27 make the payments that he wanted to up front.
28 250 Q. Mr. Keane had some money on deposit offshore.
29 How did that topic come up with Mr. Keane as far as
50
1 you are concerned as an adviser?
2 A. I am not sure. I am sure he would have introduced
3 the topic at some stage and asked me could
4 I...(INTERJECTION).
5 251 Q. He had some funds and he would have said to you at
6 one of your meetings 'I have these funds,
7 Mr. Stakelum, can you advise me how to look after
8 them well from an investment point of view.'
9 Is that what he would have said?
10 A. Investment is too fancy a word. I didn't invest
11 money on behalf of clients, only with their specific
12 instructions. Monies were on deposit purely or in
13 some cases at some stages clients asked me
14 specifically to arrange the purchase of shares.
15 But that would be totally at their discretion.
16 252 Q. Let us concentrate specifically on Mr. Keane, which
17 is what I want to do: Did Mr. Keane have these
18 funds on deposit somewhere else before he raised the
19 issue with you?
20 A. I don't think so.
21 253 Q. This was an arrangement where he proposed to put
22 money on deposit?
23 A. That's right.
24 254 Q. He asked for your advice?
25 A. He must have.
26 255 Q. Would he have been aware of the sorts of offshore
27 arrangements that there might have been or is this
28 information that would have been new to him?
29 A. I really don't know whether he would have funds

1 offshore. I don't know how the subject would have
2 arisen. I am not saying this is how it did, but it
3 could well have arisen in a discussion whereby he
4 was saying that he needed funds. The first one was
5 to purchase the partner. Subsequently the
6 separation with his wife. And he probably would
7 have advised me that he had funds or funds available
8 to him or whatever.
9 256 Q. And asked for advice as to how to deal with them?
10 A. Yes, presumably.
11 257 Q. You would have given him advice. What would that
12 advice have been?
13 A. I don't know what arrangements he might have had or
14 might not have had. I would have told him I presume
15 that if he wished, the funds could be placed through
16 Guinness & Mahon and I would look after the funds on
17 his behalf.
18 258 Q. Would you have indicated to him that the funds would
19 have gone offshore?
20 A. Presumably but I think he would have known that.
21 259 Q. Would he have asked you where offshore they would
22 have gone when you placed them with Guinness & Mahon
23 on his behalf?
24 A. No, I don't think any of my clients ever asked that.
25 But I think that they would have been well aware
26 that it was going through Guinness & Mahon.
27 260 Q. Does that imply that would have given them comfort?
28 A. No, I think it implies that they were aware that I
29 had close connections with Guinness & Mahon. They
52
1 were probably aware of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
2 or Guinness & Mahon.
3 261 Q. We are talking about Mr. Keane specifically. Why
4 do you say that you believe that clients, and if I
5 can infer Mr. Keane in that, would have necessarily
6 known about Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust and things
7 like that. We are talking about the early 1980's
8 now?
9 A. I would suspect through me that if he asked could
10 these funds be handled, I would say they could be
11 handled through Guinness & Mahon. As I said, I
12 would have assumed that they were handled through
13 Cayman.
14 262 Q. You would have provided them with the information?
15 A. Presumably.
16 263 Q. Which of course was information you in turn would
17 have obtained from Guinness & Mahon?
18 A. Yes. When you say "obtained" it was just
19 knowledge.
20 264 Q. But you gain knowledge from some source?
21 A. Yes, I was aware of Mr. Traynor's involvement with
22 Cayman. He was travelling frequently to Cayman.
23 265 Q. When it was established that it was suitable for
24 Mr. Keane's money to be placed offshore through
25 Mr. Traynor, did you advise Mr. Traynor of
26 Mr. Keane's name?
27 A. I don't remember that.
28 266 Q. But with your best estimate?
29 A. At some stage. It may have been the second loan
53
1 that he needed it for. His credit worthiness
2 wouldn't have established that. We may then have
3 advised Mr. Traynor that there were funds. I don't
4 know whether that was for the first or the second or
5 subsequent loans.
6 267 Q. We are going on a little faster than I want.
7 The situation is that you would have got a
8 negotiable instrument or cheque, presumably from Mr.
9 Keane and would you have passed that over to
10 Mr. Traynor. Would Mr. Traynor have known that
11 cheque or draft or whatever it was, was on behalf of
12 Mr. Keane?
13 A. Probably not.
14 268 Q. Mr. Traynor would have indicated to you where he was
15 going to put it on deposit?
16 A. No, not at that point.
17 269 Q. Would you have been aware from Mr. Traynor as to
18 where he was then going to deposit this money within
19 the Guinness & Mahon organisation?
20 A. If I was asked that question a year ago, I would
21 have said yes, I would presume it was Guinness
22 Mahon Cayman Trust. But subsequent matters have
23 arisen that leads me to question where it might have
24 been. It was offshore but whether it was Guinness
25 Mahon Cayman Trust, whether it was in Jersey,
26 whether it was in Dublin in the account of
27 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, I don't know any of
28 those factors.
29 270 Q. At this point Mr. Traynor may not have known
54
1 Mr. Keane's name and Mr. Keane would not have known
2 because you didn't know where his money was being
3 deposited?
4 A. That is if the sequence of events is as I say.
5 Mr. Traynor would have known Mr. Keane's name if a
6 loan had already been raised because there would
7 have been a front up loan. But I don't know
8 whether he had funds offshore before the first loan
9 was raised with him or not. Mr. Traynor generally
10 wasn't aware of my clients names because it was a
11 hotchpotch account with him. It generally wasn't.
12 But where there was a situation where they had to
13 back-to-back funds on a security, they would
14 presumably do some adjustment on their accounts to
15 do that and they would have to be aware.
16 271 Q. So that you don't know whether in fact Mr. Keane's
17 money went into the hotchpotch account, which is
18 your description of it?
19 A. I suspect it did. But then to the extent that
20 borrowings were needed to be secured by that,
21 presumably the bank may have moved it.
22 272 Q. The hotchpotch account would have been identified as
23 being an account of yours?
24 A. That's right.
25 273 Q. So that Mr. Keane would have deposited money with
26 you to be put offshore from time to time, is that
27 correct?
28 A. Right.
29 274 Q. How often might he have had money to deposit, can
55
1 you remember?
2 A. No.
3 275 Q. Annually?
4 A. I would suspect in the early days maybe more than
5 annually. It might be whenever he got the money
6 from wherever he got it. But in later years not at
7 all.
8 276 Q. But in event he came back for a second loan.
9 You inferred it might have been something to do with
10 the difficulty with his wife or something like that?
11 A. Yes.
12 277 Q. At that point what happened. Did Guinness & Mahon
13 say 'We would like to change the arrangements.'
14 A. I don't know but that is certainly possible that
15 they might have said ...My recollection is that at
16 some stage he had two loans with Guinness & Mahon,
17 one of about £90,000 and another of about £90,000.
18 One being his personally and one being the
19 company's, Gerry Keane Ltd. His personal loan
20 arising from two main transactions, firstly funds
21 borrowed to pay his partner. Secondly, funds
22 borrowed to pay his wife as part of a settlement.
24 A. The other one was a company trading loan that he
25 would have had with Guinness & Mahon. Somewhere
26 along the way I suspect his offshore funds were used
27 as part security.
28 279 Q. How did that issue get raised?
29 A. It may have been raised on the basis of the level of
56
1 borrowings that he was rising to. I don't exactly
2 know when his company would have borrowed the money.
3 It may have borrowed and increased along the way.
4 I don't know at what stage Guinness & Mahon might
5 have said that they needed some additional security.
6 I don't know. It may have been very early on or it
7 may have been later on. I don't know at what stage
8 it was.
9 280 Q. It is the sort of thing that a bank would do
10 whenever borrowings were going up, they would look
11 for their cover?
12 A. Of course.
13 281 Q. Would that make it likely that Mr. Traynor raised
14 the issue with you when you met him on some occasion
15 or was it something which was prompted by the
16 request, the application for a second loan?
17 A. I don't know. I suspect that the loans were
18 reviewed generally on an annual basis with the banks
19 and at some stage maybe in the review they would
20 write to Clyde Road because we would have arranged
21 it on behalf of him. They may have written and
22 said that at review stage there are repayments
23 necessary or whatever. And there would have been a
24 discussion where they presumably sought and looked
25 for funds that were offshore to back the security.
26 282 Q. So the back-to-back arrangement was proposed by
27 Mr. Traynor?
28 A. Presumably.
29 283 Q. How was it effected?
57
1 A. I am not sure. But the simple way that you agreed
2 is to move such funds as were needed out of the
3 hotchpotch account. I cannot remember that they
4 would leave them there, but they might earmark them.
5 I don't know.
6 284 Q. Would you have been advised of any movement of
7 monies out of the hotchpotch account?
8 A. I would. Most definitely I would have to be
9 advised.
10 285 Q. Because it was an account in your or your company's
11 name?
12 A. No, not my or my company's name. There was
13 probably a code name but I cannot remember code
14 names from those days. I am finished in
15 Guinness & Mahon a long time and I don't remember
16 what the code names would have been.
17 286 Q. Give me a flavour of the code. Was it a five-digit
18 code or something more or something less?
19 A. No, it would be an initial and a number. I am
20 trying to recollect but I cannot really do it.
21 It could have been B7 or M10. I don't know what
22 they would have used.
23 287 Q. Then there was the other side of course, which was
24 the arranging of the second loan. That would have
25 involved Mr. Keane in some paperwork with Guinness &
26 Mahon. Normal loan arrangements presumably?
27 A. Yes, there would be normal loan arrangements. I am
28 not sure but there were clients that I would have
29 certainly brought down to Guinness & Mahon.
58
1 Mr. Keane isn't big on paperwork. I have a feeling
2 he could have come to my office and completed
3 paperwork there. In connection with the company
4 you would have the usual thing: Memorandum and
5 Articles of Association and all that.
6 288 Q. But would you have sorted all this stuff out?
7 A. Yes, I would tend to do all that.
8 289 Q. And act as an intermediary with the bank?
9 A. Yes.
10 290 Q. Going on to the second reference in your letter
11 (EXHIBIT 2) where you discuss at the top of page 4
12 of your letter Mr. Keane's desire to purchase a
13 residence in Ireland. How did that issue arise?
14 A. He had separated from his wife. I think part of his
15 arrangement was that she was left in possession of
16 the family home. I think he lived for a couple of
17 years in apartments or rented accommodation. Then
18 he wished to purchase a residence off Waterloo Road.
19 I forget the name of it. He didn't have a
20 borrowing capacity here to borrow the funds that
21 would be a bankable proposition but he had offshore
22 funds. I advised him against buying the property
23 for a couple of years. I am not sure on dates,
24 anyway at some stage I took him out of Guinness &
25 Mahon as being too dear but he obviously wasn't
26 dealing with them at this stage. He wanted to use
27 his offshore funds. In order to preserve his
28 confidentiality I advised against buying but he was
29 keen to do it. He would have to use an offshore
59
1 company. Then I went to Mr. Traynor and I asked
2 him could he provide an offshore company. He did
3 this through Guernsey. That was the Beesley
4 Properties. It was arranged that Beesley Properties
5 bought this property and Mr. Keane went into a
6 rental arrangement with Beesley Properties and went
7 into occupation.
8 291 Q. Mr. Traynor suggested Beesley Properties
9 Incorporated?
10 A. He suggested that would be the method and presumably
11 that was the company. I presume it came off a
12 shelf somewhere.
13 292 Q. That was the company registered in Guernsey?
14 A. I don't know that but I think it would have been
15 provided by ...It may be College Trustees but
16 Guernsey. It would have been provided by Guernsey.
17 They may have used a Guernsey company or
18 other...(INTERJECTION).
19 293 Q. The point I was trying to get at was that it was a
20 Channel Islands company?
21 A. Certainly provided by the Channel Islands. It might
22 have been some other jurisdiction company that was
23 appropriate but it would have been provided by the
24 Channel Islands.
25 294 Q. Presumably recognising that, you recognise that
26 there was some sort of connection between a
27 Channel Islands company and where Mr. Keane's
28 deposits were?
29 A. No, that wouldn't strike me at all. This was all
60
1 being handled by Mr. Traynor through Guinness &
2 Mahon, through their connections. I wouldn't have
3 presumed that there was a deposit then with the
4 Channel Islands. There may have been but that
5 wouldn't follow.
6 295 Q. Mr. Stakelum, Beesley acquired the property?
7 A. Beesley acquired the property.
8 296 Q. Using as a back-to-back funds on deposit?
9 A. No, using the actual funds.
10 297 Q. Using the funds on deposit?
11 A. Not back-to-back.
12 298 Q. He rented the house from Beesley?
13 A. Yes .
14 299 Q. Sometime afterwards he decided to buy the house?
15 A. Yes, about 18 months later I think. The reason he
16 would have decided that later is because a situation
17 developed where he would have the funds available to
18 do it.
19 300 Q. Approximately how much after Beesley acquired the
20 property did Mr. Keane decide to buy it?
21 A. I think it was about 18 months.
22 301 Q. How was that transaction arranged?
23 A. I don't know. All I can tell you is that there
24 were transactions that did take place. I would have
25 had a lot to do with it. I don't know whether they
26 are concurrent with those things or not but they may
27 well have been.
28 302 Q. You said earlier that Mr. Keane when he was first
29 thinking about buying a house, didn't have the
61
1 borrowing capacity. That was the term you used?
2 A. That's right.
3 303 Q. A year and a half later he did have the borrowing
4 capacity?
5 A. Yes.
6 304 Q. So he borrowed from someone to do that?
7 A. I can explain why I think that happened. I am not
8 exactly sure of the dates. I know that at one
9 stage he owed Guinness & Mahon about £290,000. One
10 was the company trading situation. He was trading
11 normally with AIB. I arranged for Mr. Keane to sell
12 his shares. He owned all the shares; he had bought
13 out the other 10% shareholder somewhere along the
14 way. To sell all his shares, which was 100% of the
15 share capital, in Gerry Keane Ltd to a company
16 called Gerry Keane Holdings Ltd for £180,000 which
17 was the value of the shares at that time but also
18 coincided with what the needs were. At this stage
19 Gerry Keane Holdings Ltd owed Gerry Keane £180,000
20 because he had sold his shares to this company. He
21 owned the shares in Gerry Keane Holdings of course.
22 I got AIF to advance £90,000 to Gerry Keane Holdings
23 Ltd, which Gerry Keane Holdings Ltd paid to
24 Gerry Keane, who paid off his personal overdraft in
25 Guinness & Mahon. I also got loans from AIF to pay
26 off the company borrowings. But just to stay with
27 that particular thing, he then was repaying that
28 loan to AIF and 18 months later had sufficient of it
29 paid off for him to borrow another £90,000 by
62
1 Gerry Keane Holdings Ltd from AIF and have that
2 extra £90,000 paid to him which he used to buy the
3 house. Subject to the dates, that was the thing and
4 it operated well.
5 305 Q. When Mr. Keane was buying the house from Beesley
6 Properties was there any issue about exchange
7 control?
8 A. No. I fail to see where it would arise there. All
9 he was buying was the property. He was personally
10 buying it. Whether he was buying it from a
11 non-resident or a resident didn't matter. I don't
12 think it ever mattered when he was buying it as a
13 resident here.
14 306 Q. Do I conclude from your answer that you did not give
15 much thought to the issue of exchange control?
16 A. I wouldn't have given much thought to it; I wouldn't
17 have thought it would have arisen. I don't see
18 where it would have arisen there.
19 307 Q. Can I show you a document which we have. You can
20 see that this is an exchange control application to
21 make a payment to a non-resident of the
22 State. (EXHIBIT 3). It is on behalf of Gerard Keane
23 for £98,000 Sterling. The payee is Beesley
24 Properties of St. Peter Port, Guernsey. The purpose
25 is described here as the sale of 54, Heytesbury
26 Lane. This is an application which was made to the
27 Central Bank for exchange control approval. Who
28 would have made that if you didn't?
29 A. I have no recollection of that. I wouldn't know
63
1 anything about exchange control. I don't even
2 understand this. Name and address of which
3 application is made to "National Irish Bank,
4 0'Connell Street, Dublin 1."
5 308 Q. There seems to be some contradictions in this from
6 your recollection of the situation?
7 A. I am not sure other than it appears to be an
8 application under exchange control Acts that I
9 certainly have no memory of.
10 309 Q. The point about it is, you have no recollection of
11 this application?
12 A. None whatsoever. What is the contradiction?
13 310 Q. I hadn't understood from you that National Irish
14 Bank played a part in this?
15 A. I never heard of that. I don't even know where
16 they are on 0'Connell Street. He has dealt with
17 AIB, O'Connell Street for donkey's years, probably
18 before I knew him. We dealt with AIF and AIB,
19 O'Connell Street. I never heard of a thing with
20 National Irish Bank. I don't even know what this is
21 to tell you the truth. The name and address of
22 payee. Is that an application by Beesley Properties
23 to do something?
24 311 Q. I don't know. We will not speculate because time is
25 going on, Mr. Stakelum. From time to time some of
26 your clients might have availed of the withdrawal
27 service which Mr. Traynor operated?
28 A. Right.
29 312 Q. Do you know did Mr. Keane avail of that?
64
1 A. I would suspect not. I think Mr. Keane's position
2 was the reverse. I think Mr. Keane had some funds
3 offshore but then got borrowings probably up to the
4 extent of what he had offshore so he wouldn't have
5 been in a withdrawal situation until he came out of
6 it. I don't think so.
7 313 Q. I don't have any further questions. Thank you.
8 314 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO Mr. Stakelum, there are
9 one or two matters I want
10 to clarify. These documents you have given us,
11 it is Mary Banotti (EXHIBIT 4)?
12 A. Yes.
13 315 Q. It seems to be running from January 1991 down to
14 1998?
15 A. That is only because those are the records I have.
16 316 Q. Where did you have that record?
17 A. That was in Business Enterprises Ltd client's
18 account.
19 317 Q. Where did you get it now to produce to us?
20 A. I got it from Business Enterprises Ltd Client's
21 Account Ledger.
22 318 Q. Where is that ledger now?
23 A. That is ledger is at my house.
24 319 Q. You have a ledger. What date does it run from?
25 A. It seems that about 1991 is the first one there for
26 Mary Banotti.
27 320 Q. All your other clients would be in that, would they?
28 A. No, not in the sense of talking about offshore
29 clients.
65
1 321 Q. Not offshore clients?
2 A. No.
3 322 Q. Where are they?
4 A. They would have been Irish funds held in
5 banks...(INTERJECTION).
6 323 Q. What is the name of this ledger; what is it called?
7 A. Business Enterprises Ltd Client's Ledger.
8 324 Q. That isn't clients who would have offshore funds?
9 A. No.
10 325 Q. What ledger was that called?
11 A. I didn't have a ledger.
12 326 Q. That is a technical term. You had a record?
13 A. I had a month by month record, a schedule.
14 327 Q. You kept that, did you?
15 A. Yes.
16 328 Q. Nobody else in your office kept it?
17 A. No.
18 329 Q. Where are those records?
19 A. They are all gone and destroyed.
20 330 Q. When did you do that, Mr. Stakelum?
21 A. They tended to be destroyed as soon as they were no
22 longer needed. My arrangement with clients was that
23 if I got or gave them money, there was no receipt
24 exchanged either way. They were at liberty -- and
25 clients used it in different ways -- to ring up at
26 any stage and find out what the balance on their
27 account was. But the tendency would be to destroy
28 the records within some months each month.
29 331 Q. When was the last time you had any records of these
66
1 transactions?
2 A. Up to maybe 1998.
3 332 Q. It is all gone since 1998?
4 A. All gone.
5 333 Q. Mr. Stakelum, as I told you we have to meet again
6 because we have to examine now the information that
7 you have given us. I was suggesting not next week
8 but the week after. I was wondering if it was
9 possible to fix a date so that we can resume this
10 interview. Would Wednesday, the 22nd suit you?
11 A. That is great, yes.
12 334 Q. Very well then. Say ten o'clock this day
13 fortnight. Thank you, Mr. Stakelum.
14
15 THE INTERVIEW WAS THEN ADJOURNED TO WEDNESDAY,
16 22ND NOVEMBER 2000
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
67
•S&VKCXVoo
VXj^VU
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JACK STAKELUM
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY, 6TH DECEMBER 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL

2 THE EXAMINATION CONTINUED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,
3 6th DECEMBER 2000.
6 MR. ROWAN: Good morning Mr. Stakelum.
7 The interview on Wednesday
8 the 8th of November was adjourned and this is a
9 continuation of that interview. You were on oath on
10 that interview and you continue to be on oath. My
11 name is Paul Rowan, as you know, and this is
12 Ms. Mackey and our solicitor Ms. Cummins.
13 Ms. Mackey would like to ask you some questions.
14
15 MR. STAKELUM WAS INTERVIEWED AS FOLLOWS BY
16 MS. MACKEY
17 MS. MACKEY: Mr. Stakelum, today I want
18 to concentrate
19 specifically on two issues, one with your own
20 personal affairs and the other are your clients.
21 I want to go back, have you a copy still of your
22 statement.
23 A. I do, yes.
24 1 Q. I want to go back and have a look at that. Now you
25 say in it, at paragraph four, that in dealing with
26 your clients you used the facilities of Guinness and
27 Mahon to dialogue with Mr. Traynor. What I would
28 really like to get clear is, you were telling us on
29 the last occasion that when your clients wanted
3
1 their fund monitored, which is the word you used,
2 you would approach Mr. Traynor, do you recollect
3 this?
4 A. Yes.
5 2 Q. What I was wondering is, on the first occasion that
6 you did this what led you to believe that you could
7 approach Mr. Traynor in order to assist with the
8 monitoring of your clients funds?
9 A. It is difficulty to recall. Mr. Traynor and I were
10 close personal friends and we would have had a lot
11 of business dealings together. I was aware
12 obviously of the existence of Guinness Mahon Caymen
13 Trust, I don't know what conversations would have
14 taken place but I would have equally been aware that
15 there was a facility available for having funds
16 handled abroad. I believed all along that up to
17 recently that they were in what was then known as
18 Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust and later Ansbacher but
19 other matters arose which meant that they could have
20 been in Guernsey or some place.
21 3 Q. In your understanding of the thing at the time then
22 when you approached Mr. Traynor in relation to your
23 clients funds you approached him in the belief that
24 you would avail of a service for your clients in
25 Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust, that was your
26 understanding at that time?
28 4 Q. I see. Now, can I ask you one other question of a
29 very general nature, can you tell me what company
4
1 Clyde Enterprises is?
2 A. Clyde Enterprises is not a company, it is a business
3 registration name.
4 5 Q. Yes?
5 A. One of the needs of the clients would be
6 occasionally to withdraw funds from funds abroad.
7 One didn't know how much or how often or how
8 immediate their needs would be . I had an Irish bank
9 account which was in the name of Clyde Enterprises,
10 where I would keep a float of funds to meet the
11 needs. You might get a phone call in a morning
12 requesting £5,000 in cash and that would be supplied
13 within probably 24 hours but the source of feeding
14 that account would be withdrawing funds from
15 offshore and they would be lodged into Clyde
16 Enterprises.
17 6 Q. How would that happen?
18 A. I would make a request to Guinness Mahon to write me
19 out a cheque.
20 7 Q. You would?
21 A. Yes .
22 8 Q. So, the situation was this, there was always a
23 certain float in this account?
24 A. Yes .
25 9 Q. And a client would come to you for an amount of
26 money that you could give him from that account, so
27 you could deal with that yourself. You would
28 withdraw the money from the Clyde Enterprises and
29 give it to the client?

2 10 Q. Did you keep an eye on whether that account
3 was...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. Sorry?
5 HQ. Was it you or was it Mr. Traynor who kept an eye on
6 whether that needed to be topped up?
7 A. Me.
8 12 Q. You kept it?
9 A. Yes.
10 13 Q. When you saw it needed to be topped up you then
11 approached who?
12 A. Guinness Mahon.
13 14 Q. Who in Guinness Mahon?
14 A. It could be Mr. Traynor.
15 15 Q. Well would it usually be Mr. Traynor?
16 A. You are talking about a long time ago, a lot of the
17 time he -- because I would be meeting him anyway.
18 16 Q. Yes.
19 A. I would say probably Mr. Collery would be the guy.
20 17 Q. Mr. Collery or Mr. Traynor. You would ask them to
21 put that account in funds?
22 A. No, I would ask them for a draft payable to that
23 account.
24 18 Q. Where would that draft come from, whose money would
25 that be?
26 A. That would be clients funds, from the account
27 wherever the clients funds were abroad.
28 19 Q. The account you referred to on the last day that you
29 were here was the Hotchpotch Account.
6
1 A. Exactly.
2 20 Q. So, out of that would come funds into Clyde
3 Enterprises ?
4 A. That's right.
5 21 Q. If we could get on then to more specific matters,
6 Mr. Stakelum. You told us in your statement, I
7 think, yes, at paragraph four, that you never had
8 any personal dealings with Ansbacher?
9 A. That's right.
10 22 Q. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes .
12 23 Q. Did you ever have an Ansbacher trust, did you ever
13 have an account in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
14 yourself?
15 A. No.
16 24 Q. Were you beneficially entitled to any funds at all
17 in the Hotchpotch Account?
18 A. No.
19 25 Q. Or in Ansbacher at all?
20 A. No.
21 26 Q. Right, could I ask you to look at some documents,
22 Mary page 33 please. Now, this is a letter from
23 Mr. Traynor to Mr. Humphries in Guinness and Mahon
24 on the 1st August 1990, referring to an account
25 number 13154973 and asking him to apply interest to
26 date on that account. Then he asks him to arrange
27 to have travellers cheques to the value of $6,000
28 issued in the name of John J. Stakelum, in
29 denominations of $100. The balance on the account,

1 the account referred to above, can be used to meet
2 the charges and the balance of charges due should be
3 debited to Ansbacher Ltd Account number 13154 602.
4 These are travellers cheques in your name
5 Mr. Stakelum debited to Ansbacher, can you explain
6 that to me?
7 A. Number one I don't remember it, number two the
8 Ansbacher Ltd Account number I have never had any
9 knowledge of that.
10 27 Q. Right.
11 A. But I could explain it.
12 28 Q. Right?
13 A. The situation would be that I had the Hotchpotch
14 Account which was analysed each month.
15 29 Q. Yes .
16 A. Monies might have been drawn from that to Clyde to
17 feed funds to clients who would want to withdraw and
18 the reverse could be also true.
19 30 Q. The reverse, what do you mean the reverse?
20 A. The clients might give me money occasionally in
21 Irish pounds and if for instance client A wished to
22 withdraw -- and I will make it simple because it
23 wouldn't be quite as simple as that -- if client A
24 wished to withdraw £5,000 from funds abroad and
25 client B wished to lodge them there no funds need
26 move at all.
27 31 Q. Yes .
28 A. There would just be a credit to one client and a
29 debit to another. These would happen each month at

1 the time.
2 32 Q. Yes .
3 A. That could be exactly in connection with that, that
4 funds would be taken out there and debited to me.
5 33 Q. These were not funds been taken out, these were
6 travellers cheques in your name?
7 A. Yes .
8 34 Q. This was obviously something for your personal use?
9 A. Yes, but I would have to do a journal entry to
10 charge me with that and credit -- you see, all the
11 funds balanced every month.
12 35 Q. Yes .
13 A. So, whatever withdrawals might be from a situation,
14 whoever they would be for, somebody would have to
15 get the necessary credit.
16 36 Q. Yes .
17 A. And that is what would happen.
18 37 Q. Yes, maybe I am being very slow on the uptake here
19 but it seems to me that if you were getting
20 travellers cheques, which was something for your
21 personal use, then this was being paid with money
22 that was your money?
23 A. But paid in the Irish scene, paid through Clyde.
24 38 Q. Well, perhaps. Can we may be look at another
25 document at page 327. Now, this is a statement of
26 the account of Ansbacher Ltd care of Mr. J. D.
27 Traynor, 42 Fitzwilliam Square, Dublin 2. So, it is
28 actually an Ansbacher statement and if you see in
29 the middle of it, just to the right of the name and

1 address of Mr. Traynor, you will see "Ansbacher
2 Limited, reference A/B Special, copy statement". So
3 this is a copy statement of a coded account, coded
4 A/B Special. Now, way over on the top left-hand
5 corner, it is very very hard to see, the photocopy
6 is quite bad, but you will see the figures 54973, do
7 you see that, on the top on the left-hand corner?
8 A. 1315...(INTERJECTION).
9 39 Q. 13154973.
10 A. Right.
11 40 Q. Now, if we go back to the document that I showed you
12 a few minutes ago about your travellers cheques that
13 is headed "Re Account No. 13154973". You see the
14 date of that letter requesting the travellers
15 cheques is the 1st August 1990, do you see that?
16 A. Yes, sorry, yes.
17 41 Q. So, it is 1st August 1990 referring to Account
18 13154973. We go back to this Ansbacher Account
19 A/B Special and we see that it is entitled 13154973
20 an external call deposit account US dollars. If we
21 look at the date of the 8th August 1990, the last
22 entry, we see travellers cheques $6,000. So that
23 is clearly the account referred to in the letter of
24 Mr. Traynor. This is Ansbacher coded dollar account
25 and it is from this that your travellers cheques
26 have come.
27 A. Well, I mean, I accept that the travellers cheques
28 in dollars would have come from an offshore account.
29 I never saw that account before and I suspect that
10
1 is only an offshoot of what I call the Hotchpotch
2 Account.
3 42 Q. Yes.
4 A. Because that just shows a balance brought forward of
5 $6,011,50.
6 43 Q. I will be able to show you in a minute where that
7 came from. In fact, the account that it came out of
8 which indeed may well be the Hotchpotch Account,
9 nevertheless this is a specific account "A/B
10 Special" which appears to have been opened and
11 closed for the purpose of the one transaction and it
12 appears to be an account totally for your benefit?
13 A. Yes, I wouldn't deny that I would have got say
14 $6,000, I mean I don't remember it but I might have
15 got $6,000. But I personally would never have had
16 an account in Ansbacher. If that was for my benefit
17 I suspect that that is an entry within Guinness and
18 Mahon records where they...(INTERJECTION).
19 44 Q. Sorry, this is not a Guinness and Mahon document at
20 all, this is an Ansbacher statement?
21 A. Sorry, an Ansbacher care of J. D. Traynor, 42
22 Fitzwilliam Square, I mean I don't know what
23 accounts he may have kept and where he kept them or
24 under what heading. It wouldn't strike me that
25 there was ever an account of drawing $6,000 out,
26 like the suggestion there is did I put $6,000 in if
27 it was mine because there is an opening balance of
28 $6,011.
29 45 Q. Yes.
11
1 A. I suspect that within their accounting systems
2 instead of just debiting a Hotchpotch account or
3 something they may have transferred or whatever.
4 46 Q. That is what they did do, Mr. Stakelum, I quite
5 appreciate that. My point is slightly different,
6 maybe I could approach it another way? You
7 obviously required travellers cheques for whatever
8 reason, do you recollect ever seeking to get
9 travellers cheques from Mr. Traynor?
10 A. To tell you the truth, I do not but I did operate a
11 situation in AIB in Jersey and I remember once and
12 once only getting $10,000 worth of travellers
13 cheques. I don't ever remember getting them from
14 Mr. Traynor, but I mean, I accept the fact that I
15 may have or did, it seems like it.
16 47 Q. Clearly you did. Just supposing for a moment, and I
17 accept that you can't remember doing so, but if you
18 had wished to do it, you would have gone to
19 Mr. Traynor and you would have asked for travellers
20 cheques on what basis; where would you have thought
21 they would come from?
22 A. Mr. Traynor didn't know what was in the Hotchpotch
23 Account or why they were there. I would have every
24 month a number of journal entries where I would be
25 debiting and crediting people for whatever
26 transactions they would take.
27 48 Q. Yes.
28 A. I obviously would have paid for them through say
29 Clyde and withdrew from that situation the money
12
1 because that was the convenient place of getting the
2 dollars.
3 49 Q. You would have paid for them?
4 A. Yes, I would have taken the debit through my entries
5 for Clyde Enterprises.
6 50 Q. Yes .
7 A. Like I would, if you like, debiting Jack Stakelum
8 with the equivalent of $6,000 and crediting somebody
9 else.
10 51 Q. But the money in Clyde Enterprises was your clients
11 money, isn't that right?
13 52 Q. So, Jack Stakelum would never have been debited?
14 A. Well, I mean, I would pay if there was a need for me
15 to pay for whatever it was I would pay for it, I
16 would make a lodgement in Clyde presumably.
17 53 Q. Why would you need to do that, when all you had to
18 do was top it up from the Hotchpotch Account?
19 A. If it was my personal drawings I would have had to
20 pay for that.
21 54 Q. Right.
22 A. One place or the other.
23 55 Q. Yes .
24 A. I didn't have foreign funds.
25 56 Q. Why do it this way? Why would you not just go into
26 a bank and get your travellers cheques in the normal
27 way?
28 A. I don't know. I mean I can't remember what the
29 circumstances of the transaction would be.

1 57 Q. All right, maybe we could look at something else.
2 Could we look now at page 34, please. This is a
3 letter from Joan Williams this time to the Irish
4 Intercontinental Bank. It is dated the 9th June
5 1992 and it is referring to an Ansbacher Account in
6 the Irish Intercontinental Bank. Again, it is the
7 A/B Special so it is the one we have been looking at
8 before but this time moved, as all the Ansbacher
9 accounts did in 1991 to IIB, so it has a slightly
10 different account number attached to it.
11
12 This time Ms. Williams is asking to let her have for
13 collection a US dollar draft for $2,000, payable to
14 you and drawing again on this A/B Special Account,
15 what might that be?
16 A. I know that I never had any dealings with IIB.
17 58 Q. I accept that you may not be aware that the
18 Ansbacher accounts had moved to IIB but they had and
19 therefore anybody dealing with the Ansbacher
20 accounts after 1991 was unknowingly dealing with IIB
21 because that was where they were kept, they were no
22 longer in Guinness and Mahon. Would you recollect
23 withdrawing a draft for $2,000?
24 A. No, I would absolutely believe that that wasn't for
25 my personal benefit.
26 59 Q. This may have been for one of your clients?
27 A. Yes, I have no recollection of it but I mean, I
28 would accept $6,000 in drafts as being a need that I
29 might personally have if I was travelling to the
14
1 States or something.
2 60 Q. Yes .
3 A. I would not accept that I had a need for a personal
4 $2,092 draft.
5 61 Q. So, is your evidence then that this is a withdrawal
6 for your client?
7 A. Well, I...(INTERJECTION).
8 62 Q. Would you not have withdrawn from Clyde Enterprises
9 for your client?
10 A. It is a dollar draft, so there was some reason for a
11 dollar and I don't know what it is.
12 63 Q. Very well, we will move on again anyway. Mary if we
13 could look at page 38. Now, this is a letter of the
14 9th January 1990, from Mr. Traynor again, to
15 Mr. Lanigan O'Keeffe in Guinness and Mahon and he
16 says :
17 "Could you please let me arrange to

have a Sterling Draft for Stg. £6,500
18 payable to Clare Stakelum. The debit
should be to Ansbacher Sterling
19 Account".
20
21 And it gives the number. Is Clare Stakelum a
22 relative of yours, Mr. Stakelum?
23 A. Yes .
24 64 Q. Your daughter?
25 A. No. She would be a daughter of a cousin and that
26 would be on behalf of -- like her father who was
27 alive at the time, I mean I don't recollect it now.
28 65 Q. Who was her father?
29 A. He was a Mr. Connor Stakelum.

1 66 Q. Was Mr. Connor Stakelum on of the clients that you
2 assisted?
3 A. Yes.
4 67 Q. Was he your brother?
5 A. No, cousin.
6 68 Q. Was he one of your clients within your own
7 memorandum account system?
8 A. Yes, or his company, which would be Stakelum's
9 Hardware Limited.
10 69 Q. So, this was his daughter?
11 A. Yes.
12 70 Q. Do you have a daughter Clare Stakelum?
13 A. No, that is the only Clare Stakelum I know.
14 71 Q. I see. Moving on again, can we look at page 36,
15 Mary, please. That is a memorandum of Des Traynor to
16 Pat O'Dwyer, much earlier, it is the 5th August 1980
17 and it says:
18 "This is to confirm having requested

you to purchase Stg. £500 in travellers
19 cheques in the name of Patricia
Stakelum, Innismann, Queen's Park,
20 Monkstown, Co. Dublin, and to debit the
cost of £505 to G.M.C.T. Guinness
21 Mahon Cayman Trust, Sundry Sub-Company
Account.
22
Also, to purchase IR.£300 worth of
23 Escudos and to debit the amount to
Amiens S/L Account.
24
When you have the above ready please
25 contact Jack Stakelum directly".
26
27 Is Patricia Stakelum your wife?
28 A. She is.
29 72 Q. Here we have your wife getting travellers cheques
16
1 and the amount being debited to the Guinness Mahon
2 Caymen Trust Account in 1980. Can you recollect
3 what that might be about or how that could be
4 explained?
5 A. It looks like that with the Escudos that she may
6 have been travelling to Portugal or something like
7 that.
8 73 Q. It does, yes, but my interest is not so much why she
9 wanted it, it is where it was coming from. It was
10 coming from the Ansbacher Account.
11 A. All I can explain about that is that I didn't have
12 an Ansbacher Account per say and I didn't have any
13 benefit from the Ansbacher and the balances were
14 clients funds; but there would have been a facility
15 there in the sense that there were foreign funds to
16 draw funds from and I would have replaced whatever I
17 would have taken, either directly there or through
18 say the Clyde Enterprises Account.
19 74 Q. Right.
20 A. But I don't remember the particular transactions.
21 75 Q. In either of the transactions that we looked at your
22 own travellers cheques or this one, is there any
23 instruction to debit the Clyde Enterprise Account?
24 In each case it is an Ansbacher Account that is
25 being debited?
26 A. That is not my instruction, that's Mr. Traynor's
27 instruction presumably and I don't know what
28 accounts they are dealing with because I wouldn't
29 have access to their coding, no more than they would

1 have any access to Clyde Enterprises.
2 76 Q. I see. Can we now look at page 46. Just before we
3 pass that can I ask you, Mr. Stakelum, are you
4 familiar with the phrase "suitably secured"?
5 A. Yes .
6 77 Q. Are you familiar with the explanation that Guinness
7 and Mahon give for that phrase?
8 A. Yes, I have contested it on a few occasions with the
9 Moriarty people in private because there were some
10 situations there where they believed there was a
11 back-to-back and I knew there wasn't in the sense of
12 how far one would know. There are situations about
13 those that evidently the belief was that the phrase
14 "suitably secured" or "adequately secured" in
15 connection with reviewing a loan meant that there
16 were funds elsewhere backing that.
17 78 Q. Yes .
18 A. I contest that, I accept...(INTERJECTION).
19 79 Q. You may contest it Mr. Stakelum, but it is the
20 evidence nevertheless of Guinness and Mahon to us
21 that is what it means.
22 A. Oh, yes, but...(INTERJECTION).
23 80 Q. So, I would now like you to look at a document here?
24 A. Before I even look at the document I would like you
25 to hear me out in connection with it.
26 81 Q. Right?
27 A. There were certainly situations I am aware where the
28 words "suitably secured" and "adequately secured"
29 was used by Guinness Mahon where I certainly believe
18
1 there was no back-to-back. I am not saying it
2 wasn't a general rule but it could also have applied
3 if there was an instruction given to consider that
4 it was so, or that there was a cast iron guarantee
5 or something like that or indeed maybe where
6 Mr. Traynor may have given instructions.
7 Furthermore, I believe there were situations where
8 there were back-to-backs where the clients weren't
9 aware of them.
10 82 Q. Yes .
11 A. And there were reasons for them.
12 83 Q. That may well be the case where the client wasn't
13 aware but if there was such a back-to-back and the
14 client was unaware of it nevertheless it meant that
15 there were funds there to be able to back it up?
16 A. Not necessarily the clients though, that is the
17 point that I am making.
18 84 Q. I see. Can I ask now you to look at this
19 Mr. Stakelum. It is a loans listing from Guinness
20 and Mahon in 1974, showing lists of certain resident
21 loans of over £10,000 and you appear there for two
22 loans. The second one down has beside it "suitably
23 secured"; do you recollect this loan, Mr. Stakelum,
24 the loan for £40,000 with a repayment date of 1975?
25 A. Is there a date when the loan was granted.
26 85 Q. No?
27 A. Yes. I don't recall the top one.
28 86 Q. Well it is not the top one that I am interested in.
29 It is the second one, the one that is described as

1 "suitably secured"?
2 A. Yes, I can. It is just that the repayment date
3 puzzles me. If I may explain? When I was in
4 Haughey Boland and Company and I left there on 1st
5 December '75, prior to that, Des Traynor had left
6 maybe in 1970 or 1971, some time after he joined
7 Guinness Mahon and my recollection is we were -- the
8 top rate of tax in this country was maybe in the
9 order of 80%. He came to me and he said there was a
10 scheme, a very legitimate scheme, for mitigating
11 your tax and what we did at the time and it would be
12 entirely he, because I wouldn't have had any funds
13 whatsoever of any nature, is he arranged for
14 Guinness and Mahon to loan me £40,000 on which I
15 would pay interest. That is the figure I remember
16 and that's why I am not sure of the ten at the top.
17 I don't know what that is. It was a personal
18 borrowing and that interest at that time was allowed
19 for tax purposes.
20
21 The £40,000 was given as -- I am trying to remember
22 this as a scheme, it's a long time back, -- £40,000
23 was loaned to a company, presumably in Caymen and
24 earned interest there. There would be certainly a
25 differential but I would have paid the gross
26 interest here and claimed it for tax. This is why
27 the date puzzles me about '75, maybe that was a
28 repayment date.
29 87 Q. That is the repayment date.
20
1 A. But I think it might have been paid back before
2 that.
3 88 Q. I think it was because we see
4 there...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. Would it have been paid back before March '74?
6 89 Q. It could have been because the comment there it
7 says, due to interest since repaid?
8 A. I think it was paid back before March '74 because in
9 April '74 capital gains tax came in and the concept
10 was that you liquidated the company in the Caymen,
11 which now had a worth of, well let's say £43,000 or
12 something, I am not sure what the figures were,
13 which was a tax free gain, quite legitimate, but in
14 the meantime you had the advantage of having the
15 interest paid having allowed for tax.
16 90 Q. Yes.
17 A. A perfectly legitimate scheme, liquidated, in my
18 view, at March '74 because capital gains tax was
19 coming in and the benefit of that would have been
20 lost then.
21 91 Q. What was the name of company Mr. Stakelum?
22 A. I have no idea. I have no idea, I had no money. It
23 was a thought put to me by Mr. Traynor, I wouldn't
24 have known of the existence of the ability or tax
25 advantage, but they lent me the money and they never
26 gave me the money, if you like, it was lodged there,
27 so, I suppose they had that as security for it all
28 the time and it was liquidated then in March '74, a
29 once off.
21
1 92 Q. The interest that had been earned on it was yours?
2 A. Yes, when the company was liquidated, capital gains
3 tax. It would be less than what they would have got
4 on interest here, but the advantage would have
5 arisen to me and the tax deduction.
6 93 Q. The Caymen company that had control of those funds,
7 obviously invested it some where so that they would
8 earn interest?
9 A. No, no, the £40,000 loan that was granted to me.
10 94 Q. Yes.
11 A. Was evidently placed into that company on deposit.
12 95 Q. The company was not a bank. I presume it was a
13 company incorporated in Caymen. The company would
14 have to deposit that money somewhere, isn't that
15 right?
16 A. Presumably it was within the banking structure of
17 the Guinness Mahon or the Guinness Mahon Cayman
18 Trust, I don't know.
19 96 Q. Presumably Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust, most likely,
20 wouldn't that be the case?
21 A. Right, because it would be outside the jurisdiction
22 so it wouldn't fetch tax liability.
23 97 Q. This money loaned to you by Guinness and Mahon would
24 have been on deposit in Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust,
25 which would explain why your loan was described as
26 suitably secured, wouln't that be the case?
27 A. I would never have got a penny into my hands for
28 that, they held the money all the way.
29 98 Q. Yes.
22
1 A. I don't know whether it would be lodged in Caymen
2 Trust, you see you have the thing that it could have
3 been, for instance, a Caymen company that lodged the
4 money in Dublin. I mean they could have had the
5 £40,000 sitting side by side
6 because...(INTERJECTION).
7 99 Q. But wouldn't it have had to be offshore for the
8 thing to work?
9 A. It is the ownership of the funds that was offshore.
10 100 Q. Yes .
11 A. I mean if a foreign company lodges money in Dublin
12 it would be tax free, you know.
13 101 Q. Yes .
14 A. So, I wouldn't know where that was. Mr. Traynor
15 merely came to me, like it worked but it was only
16 for a relatively short period of time because
17 capital gains tax was introduced, it might have been
18 a year or two.
19 102 Q. Yes .
20 A. Or something like that.
21 103 Q. The interest that had accrued on that did you leave
22 it there?
23 A. No, no. That was a capital gains tax, the interest
24 had accrued because the company was liquidated so I
25 would have taken it back and that would have been
26 what paid off the loan.
27 104 Q. Yes .
28 A. What I would have got into my hands, I would have
29 presumably paid the interest up front and then they
23
1 got the capital gain back which would be something
2 less that that interest would have been.
3 105 Q. I see.
4 A. I remember the other loan too now, but that is of no
5 interest to you, no?
6 106 Q. It is not, no. Now, can I ask you to look at page
7 69 please. This is another document a letter from
8 Mr. Traynor to Guinness and Mahon dated the 6th
9 September 1990, referring to Ansbacher Limited
10 account A/B-CZ. This is a different one to the one
11 that we have looked at before and he says:
12 "Dear David,
13 The above deposit matures on 10/9/90.
14 On that date could you please arrange

to let me have a cheque for IR£1,500.00
15 payable to Business Enterprises and
roll the balance of £63,462.88 for one
16 month".
17
18 Now this was the situation where a sum of money, a
19 specific sum of money, was clearly on fixed deposit
20 and your company Business Enterprises seems to have
21 been able to draw apparently the interest from that
22 before it was rolled over to another fixed term. Can
23 you suggest what that might be about?
24 A. Yes, I think so. Do you remember you mentioned
25 Clyde Enterprises?
26 107 Q. Yes .
27 A. That is a business registration name not a company.
28 108 Q. Yes .
29 A. Prior to Clyde Enterprises we had a business
24
1 registration named Business Enterprises and I
2 suspect that is what that is, to be payable to
3 Business Enterprises and that would have been duly
4 paid out to whatever client. I obviously don't know
5 this but I mean that is what I can assume. That is
6 not Business Enterprises Limited and there was a big
7 distinction between the two.
8 109 Q. I see.
9 A. I don't know what that is. If that were Business
10 Enterprises Limited, I can only assume that would
11 have been an invoice from Business Enterprises
12 Limited to somebody who was being paid some fee for
13 something. If it is Business Enterprises not
14 limited.
15 110 Q. Yes.
16 A. Then it would be like a payment into Clyde for
17 interest earned.
18 111 Q. I see.
19 A. Some client may have wanted to withdraw his
20 interest, I have no idea.
21 112 Q. Clearly if this was one of your clients then it was
22 a client who hadn't got his funds in the Hotchpotch
23 Account but had a very specific fixed deposit.
24 A. That's right. Generally speaking it was a
25 Hotchpotch Account but you could have had situations
26 where -- the Hotchpotch Account merely earned money
27 generally on a rollover of one month's interest; but
28 some clients would specifically want say a three
29 month and that might be segregated.
25
1 113 Q. Yes.
2 A. When I say segregated, Guinness Mahon wouldn't have
3 knowledge of who they were.
4 114 Q. Right.
5 A. Let's say well £60,000 on three months at whatever
6 but as far as I was concerned it was all a
7 Hotchpotch Account.
8 115 Q. How would you be able to account to your particular
9 client for this since Guinness and Mahon wouldn't
10 know to tell you who the client was. How would you
11 know how this client account was doing. By what
12 means would Guinness Mahon communicate?
13 A. Every month we reconciled. Every month with
14 Guinness Mahon, the totality of the funds and every
15 month I would have reconciled the balance on Clyde
16 Enterprises Account.
17 116 Q. How would you describe this account if you wanted
18 information on it since Guinness and Mahon didn't
19 know who's it was?
20 A. I really don't know. I really don't know, I mean it
21 might be when we are sitting down or talking over
22 the telephone about it like, "and what about the
23 £60,000 on deposit", or there might be other ones
24 etc, what were they and get information about them.
25 117 Q. It is clear that Guinness and Mahon described this
26 account by a code, "A/B-CZ", Mr. Traynor is writing
27 to David Humphries referring to that. So, that was
28 how Guinness and Mahon saw that account, it was an
29 account described as "Ansbacher Limited Account
26
1 A/B-CZ".
2 A. Yes, I mean I have no idea what coding they were
3 using or reference.
5 A. To tell you the truth I thought I knew everybody in
6 Guinness Mahon, I don't ever remember David
7 Humphries.
8 119 Q. Well leaving aside that for a moment, would
9 Mr. Traynor have known the identity of this person?
10 A. The probability is not, but I don't know for sure.
11 120 Q. Well then this brings me back, if Mr. Traynor did
12 not know who it was but gave it a code, you knowing
13 who it was, then in order for Mr. Traynor to tell
14 you about this he had to refer to it by the code to
15 you, didn't he, what other way could he refer to it?
16 A. No, he wouldn't, he wouldn't. Was he still in
17 Guinness and Mahon? No, he wasn't in Guinness and
18 Mahon at that stage if he is writing letters from
19 Fitzwilliam Square.
20 121 Q. Yes.
21 A. So, I probably wouldn't be dealing directly with Des
22 Traynor in connection with that at all.
23 122 Q. Well that is even more puzzling then, how would
24 Guinness and Mahon be able to tell you how this
25 client's account was doing other than by referring
26 to it by this A/B-CZ?
27 A. Because if I was sitting down -- there wouldn't be
28 that many accounts involved like -- if I was sitting
29 down and I was talking on the telephone to somebody
27
1 and if I wanted to reconcile balances at the end of
2 month and at that stage if Mr. Traynor was gone it
3 would probably have been Padraig Collery, then I'd
4 be saying, like on the general account how much is
5 the interest earned and agreeing if there were
6 withdrawals, etcetera, etcetera, and what about on
7 the £60,000.
8 123 Q. You could refer to it like that?
9 A. I think that's the most logical way to refer it
10 because I don't know that we would -- we wouldn't
11 have many separate accounts, we might have had
12 dollar accounts as well but we wouldn't have had any
13 separate accounts, so, there wouldn't be a problem
14 in identification. I mean I wasn't talking about
15 seven or eight or ten or twelve we'd only be talking
16 about a few accounts, you'd probably refer to them
17 as the principal sum. That's not being coy about it
18 because if there was a reference on those accounts
19 that reference would be a thing that Guinness and
20 Mahon would use rather than me.
21 124 Q. Mr. Stakelum, if I could just go back over what your
22 evidence has been this morning at least on this
23 point. We have seen that you and members of your
24 family had funds withdrawn from Ansbacher, debited
25 to Ansbacher for their personal use, now as I
26 understand it your explanation for that, I am still
27 not terribly clear about it, but if I am wrong now
28 in what I say correct me.
29
28
1 Your explanation is that you might withdraw funds
2 like that for your personal use and then repay it
3 back into Clyde Enterprises, is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 125 Q. Then in respect of your suitably secured loan or
6 what you described as a suitably secured loan, your
7 evidence is that Mr. Traynor had explained this
8 particular type of tax avoidance scheme?
9 A. That's right.
10 126 Q. Whereby you would borrow money from Guinness and
11 Mahon and it would be put offshore in the name of a
12 company, a foreign registered company, where it
13 earned some interest. In the meantime you would pay
14 off the interest here which you would be able to set
15 off against tax. When the company was liquidated
16 the interest that had accrued on it would be a
17 capital gain to you?
18 A. That's right, absolutely. There is the possibility,
19 I don't remember, that instead of paying off the
20 interest here which would effect a cash flow because
21 I wouldn't have had many means at that time, they
22 may have deferred the collection of interest, the
23 charge for interest would be allowed for tax
24 purpose. They may have deferred the collection of
25 interest until the company was liquidated. I don't
26 think there was a long period of time in that
27 because capital gains tax coming in nullified the
28 effect of that.
29 127 Q. I don't have any further questions to ask you about
29
1 that aspect of our interview this morning,
2 Mr. Stakelum. Mr. Rowan would like to ask you some
3 questions on another point now and I will come back
4 later to the issue of your clients.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
1 MR. STAKELUM WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN
3 MR. ROWAN: Before I ask you some
4 questions about another
5 aspect may I just clarify something? You explained
6 that the Caymen company to whom the £40,000 had been
7 loaned was liquidated and that produced a capital
8 gain for you, who owned or controlled the Caymen
9 company?
10 A. Entirely done by Guinness and Mahon. I mean I
11 wouldn't even remember the name. That was put
12 through to me as me being very close to Des Traynor
13 and he had to obviously -- Guinness and Mahon --
14 offer me the facility to put the £40,000 away so to
15 speak, because I didn't have those kinds of funds
16 and it was purely a legitimate means of some tax
17 avoidance at the time.
18 128 Q. Would you agree with me if I suggested that on the
19 liquidation of a company the shareholders would be
20 the beneficiaries of any increase in the value of
21 any of the shares?
22 A. Yes, presumably I would...(INTERJECTION).
23 129 Q. Would that not be correct?
24 A. I think so, yes.
25 130 Q. Were you a shareholder in that company?
26 A. I must have been, I mean I think I must have been.
27 131 Q. You said a moment ago that you didn't know that?
28 A. Well I don't remember.
29 132 Q. Can we have this straightforwardly please,
31
1 Mr. Stakelum, you were a shareholder in that Caymen
2 company were you not?
3 A. I believe I must have been.
4 133 Q. Thank you. Earlier in the interview you explained
5 that Clyde Enterprises was a trading name or a
6 business name, is that correct?
7 A. Business registration, yes, that's what it is.
8 134 Q. So, it was just a business name?
9 A. That's right, it is registered.
10 135 Q. A registered business name?
11 A. Yes.
12 136 Q. Registered with?
13 A. Me as the proprietor.
14 137 Q. With you as the proprietor?
15 A. Right.
16 138 Q. Registered with the business names registry?
17 A. Exactly.
18 139 Q. It had a bank account with which bank please?
19 A. AIB.
20 140 Q. When you required further monies you asked for money
21 for withdrawal from GMCT, for Mr. Traynor and a
22 draft would be produced a a result of that request?
23 A. That's right.
24 141 Q. Which you lodged into the AIB bank account?
25 A. That's right.
26 142 Q. And arising from that you them made payments to your
27 clients?
28 A. Right.
29 143 Q. When your clients were depositing money with you to
32
1 go to GMCT did you lodge those moneys into you AIB
2 account in the name of Clyde Enterprises?
3 A. Sometimes, if they were Irish funds.
4 144 Q. Mr. Stakelum, I think as customary at about this
5 time in the morning we stop for a cup of tea or
6 coffee, I think you know the routine, we are going
7 to do that now for ten minutes or so.
9 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
10
11 145 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Stakelum when you were
12 last here for interview we
13 explored with you a certain amount of how much
14 contact you had had with Mr. Traynor and Caymen
15 Trust and so on, it was a somewhat disjointed
16 discussion at times and we wanted to clarify some of
17 the matters which seemed not to have been adequately
18 dealt with. That is what I want to do now, if I
19 may?
20
21 I think you indicated to us last time that from
22 approximately 1956 to 1958 you worked as a article
23 clerk, if I may use that term, which I think was the
24 term relating to the day?
25 A. Right.
26 146 Q. What sort of work did you do as an article clerk,
27 broadly?
28 A. It was a relatively small practice. There was just
29 Charlie Haughey and Harry Boland, the two partners.
33
1 Des Traynor would have been manager. He would have
2 been shortly qualified around '55/'56. There were
3 maybe six to eight article clerks, I think there
4 were four each allowed, I am not too sure. A couple
5 of secretaries, mostly auditing work.
6 147 Q. So you would have been working as a junior on an
7 audit team or a series of audit teams?
8 A. Arguably, yes.
9 148 Q. Mr. Traynor, as you have just said was a manager at
10 that stage, a qualified manager?
11 A. Yes.
12 149 Q. He would have been heading up audits?
14 150 Q. Did you work with him as a junior on some of those
15 audits?
16 A. Yes, very closely I would say.
17 151 Q. Did you work with him quite a bit?
18 A. Yes, quite a bit.
19 152 Q. In those days, I think I am correct in saying, that
20 the Institute of Chartered Accountants and you are a
21 chartered accountant I believe?
22 A. That's right.
23 153 Q. The Institute of Chartered Accountants exams were
24 five parts, if I recall?
25 A. No.
26 154 Q. They weren't?
27 A. No.
28 155 Q. How many parts were there?
29 A. Intermediate and final, two parts.
34
1 156 Q. Right. Can you recall the sorts of subjects that
2 would have been included in those examinations?
3 What sorts of subjects did you have to answer on?
4 A. There would have been to final maybe there was, as I
5 recall about 16 subjects covered in eight papers.
6 There would have been accounting one and two,
7 executive accounting, partnership accounting, branch
8 accounting and general accounting. They would have
9 been two papers. There would have been a paper on
10 auditing, that is three. There would be a paper on
11 taxation, four. There would be a paper on what we
12 would called cost accounting, would be five, that's
13 now management accounting I think. There would have
14 been company law, six. I don't know, there would
15 have been eight papers done in my final anyway.
16 157 Q. I think you have provided me with the piece of
17 information that I was looking for, there was a tax
18 paper?
19 A. There was.
20 158 Q. Covering personal tax and corporate tax?
21 A. That's right.
22 159 Q. Thank you. Then from around 1962 when I think you
23 indicated you qualified?
24 A. I think '61 but I went back to Haughey Boland in
25 '62, yes.
26 160 Q. But as a qualified senior?
27 A. Yes .
28 161 Q. What changed then in the sort of work that you did?
29 A. Not a lot immediately except that I would have been
35
1 the senior and taking charge of the audit for
2 clients. I also was in a kind of a managerial role
3 in Haughey Boland and Company where I might have
4 been scheduling work for the other auditors in the
5 firm or the other employees and that but generally
6 heading up the bigger audits.
7 162 Q. So you were heading up the audits. To what degree
8 did you have responsibility for the taxation issues
9 which would usually have followed on from preparing
10 a set of accounts for a firm or a corporate entity?
11 A. I don't know the exact date but at that time there
12 was a great tendency for the practitioners to employ
13 people from the revenue. We would have had some
14 ex-inspectors of taxes in and the tendency would be
15 when you completed an audit that you probably
16 prepared the computation or if you didn't, you
17 certainly got all the information ready for the
18 computation and then you got it approved by the
19 tax department.
20 163 Q. During that period when you were a manager,
21 obviously with more responsibility than before you
22 qualified, did you then have a further opportunity
23 to work with Mr. Traynor?
24 A. Yes, we would have been very close together on a
25 number of assignments.
26 164 Q. He was a partner at that stage?
27 A. He was a partner when I went back in '62, that's
28 right.
29 165 Q. So the relationship changed from being a junior to a
36
1 manager; the relationship was one of manager to
2 partner?
3 A. Right.
4 166 Q. Did you work with him on his clients for which he
5 was the partner responsible. You worked with him as
6 manager on those clients?
7 A. Yes, that's a fair comment. I think I would have
8 been displacing him from a lot of situations. He
9 would have been moving on to other things. I
10 remember very heavy work loads and one particular
11 client that was his responsibility and he kind of
12 unloaded onto me and I always said that was almost
13 the last straw, that he was almost severing himself
14 from the normal auditing work. We would have worked
15 very closely together, undoubtedly.
16 167 Q. Nonetheless he remained as the partner to whom the
17 client looked in the first instance and you did a
18 lot of the work in preparing the data?
19 A. That's right.
20 168 Q. You have just indicated a moment ago that he moved
21 onto other things. Does that mean that he started
22 to specialise in some way?
23 A. Specialise, I don't know if that is the word. When
24 I say that he moved onto other things he certainly
25 seem to extract himself a lot from the day-to-day
26 work. He was a work-a-holic so it wasn't a question
27 of not working but there were things that he got
28 involved in. He got involved with clients in the
29 very big way, he was certainly with a company called
37
1 Merchant Banking and he would have at least every
2 Friday morning, always been at a board meeting
3 there. I don't know if he was on the board now, but
4 he was always at a board meeting there and he would
5 get involved in other situations. It is hard to
6 relate when the dates were. I know before he left
7 to join Guinness and Mahon he got very involved with
8 projects that they were involved with, property
9 projects that the bank were involved in, he was in
10 an advisory capacity.
11 169 Q. Don't jump ahead too much. Let's try and keep the
12 thing in a logical flow. Was Merchant Banking a
13 client of Haughey Boland at the time?
14 A. That's right.
15 170 Q. And that was one of the clients for which
16 Mr. Traynor had a responsibility?
17 A. That's right but in addition to that, Matt Gallagher
18 would have been the owner of it and there were
19 groups of building companies there, I'm not sure
20 what they would have been but he would have been
21 very involved with that.
22 171 Q. Merchant Banking, if I recall correctly, had a
23 subsidiary in Northern Ireland. Was Mr. Traynor
24 responsible for that?
25 A. I don't have any memory of a Northern Ireland
26 connection.
27 172 Q. Right. So he worked with Merchant Banking and
28 perhaps that give him an interest in the whole area
29 of being involved with banking situations?
38
1 A. I don't think that was the reason that he ultimately
2 finished up with Guinness Mahon. I think there was
3 a very specific reason for that. I don't know.
4 173 Q. We will come to that. Anyway the point was that you
5 started to take a lot of responsibility for clients
6 of which Mr. Traynor was the partner. In 1967 you
7 became a partner?
8 A. That's right.
9 174 Q. What age were you in 1967?
10 A. 33.
11 175 Q. 33 right. Were you a general partner or did you
12 have specialised responsibilities?
13 A. I think before he left, obviously we would have had
14 discussions about things, the partners and that. I
15 tended to specialise in liquidations and
16 receiverships because the appointment of liquidators
17 or receivers is a personal thing. It is not a firm,
18 it is an individual that gets appointed a liquidator
19 so you have to push a name of an individual if you
20 were to become known in the field. There weren't
21 sufficient liquidations and receiverships at that
22 stage where it would be exclusive to all other
23 things; so to that extent I would specialise in
24 liquidations and receiverships but continue to
25 handle a number of auditing situations as well.
26 176 Q. How much of your time would you have spent on those
27 two main parts of your work?
28 A. The liquidations and receiverships?
29 177 Q. The insolvency work, if I may describe it as that,
39
1 and the auditing or other general part?
2 A. I think it would have grown one way as opposed to
3 the other. Obviously when you came to liquidation or
4 receivership it was a fairly urgent 'fire brigade'
5 situation where you might have to go in immediately.
6 More and more it became that way. I know that when
7 I left Haughey Boland in '75 that I took something
8 like 43 or 44 liquidations or receiveships with me,
9 in the sense that it was a decision that I would
10 remain rather than resign and pass it onto somebody
11 else, and wrap them up.
12 178 Q. Receivership work is quite different from
13 liquidation work, is it not?
14 A. There are very distinct differences, yes.
15 179 Q. Can you just outline what you perceive were the
16 differences in the early 1960's?
17 A. Between receivership and liquidation?
18 180 Q. Yes?
19 A. You were appointed liquidator almost after the fact
20 in the sense that the company had gone and had
21 passed its resolutions and appointed you liquidator.
22 That was a total question of winding up the company
23 and paying the creditors in the order in which they
24 were entitled to be paid.
25 181 Q. So the company, effectively, had come to an end as a
26 result of the liquidation.
27 A. Exactly.
28 182 Q. Receivership?
29 A. In the receivership area that wouldn't necessarily
40
1 be so. It was very often a mortal blow to a company
2 but there was still the possibility that you could
3 revive the company if you could correct the problem
4 that had caused the receivership in the first place.
5 Your responsibility was to the debenture holder who
6 appointed you subject to certain other criteria but
7 you had no responsibility really to the general
8 creditors other than not to be negligent about the
9 assets.
10 183 Q. In what proportion of the receiverships were you the
11 principal, did you find yourself with a trading
12 receivership on your hands, approximately?
13 A. That was never wound up?
14 184 Q. No.
15 A. You always traded for a while.
16 185 Q. Where you perceived it was possible to continue
17 trading the business perhaps before passing it on?
18 A. Not many, because often and the tendency was that
19 people didn't seek to make appointments until the
20 companies were mortally wounded. But on occasions,
21 there were some.
22 186 Q. So the trading element of it was for a better
23 realisation of the assets?
24 A. Generally.
25 187 Q. Prior to your appointments as partner, who had done
26 insolvency work in Haughey Boland?
27 A. I probably did a lot of it but either Mr. Boland who
28 was a partner or Mr. Traynor who was a partner.
29 Either one of them would have been the nominee.

1 188 Q. So Mr. Traynor understood something about insolvency
2 work?
3 A. Mr. Traynor was very brilliant on a cross-section of
4 work.
5 189 Q. So, Mr. Traynor decided to leave Haughey Boland and
6 join Guinness and Mahon?
7 A. Yes.
8 190 Q. He was then an established partner in Haughey
9 Boland?
10 A. Very much so.
11 191 Q. And a very able man as you have just said. Did that
12 decision come as a surprise to his partners and you
13 in particular?
14 A. I think the word would be shock.
15 192 Q. Why?
16 A. Because he would have been, he was a work-a-holic.
17 He would have worked morning, noon and night. He
18 would have been a real corner-stone of the
19 partnership and he would have been considered a
20 massive loss to a relatively struggling partnership.
21 That's why it would have been a shock.
22 193 Q. Nonetheless he decided to go?
23 A. Yes. I don't recall the exact time but I suspect
24 that he would have come in at some partnership
25 meeting and his announcement wouldn't have been
26 that I am leaving next week, it would be that he was
27 leaving in some months time. But prior to that he
28 would have been substantially involved with work
29 connected with Guinness Mahon. He used to be with
42
1 them far more than with us in Haughey Boland at the
2 time.
3 194 Q. When did he start to work with Guinness and Mahon?
4 A. I am not sure when he left. I'm always confused
5 whether he left in 1970 or 1971. I think it was the
6 31st March. I'm not sure, a year or two before
7 that. He worked on some property schemes and
8 taxation schemes with them. I'm not sure. I
9 wouldn't have known anything about it, whether
10 Guinness and Mahon were financing them or taking
11 equity in them or what they might have been, but he
12 obviously made a very able contribution to whatever
13 they were doing because they invited him to join the
14 board in a very senior capacity there.
15 195 Q. May I just enquire whether Guinness & Mahon were
16 clients of Haughey Boland or clients of other
17 people.
18 A. No. Guinness Mahon, no.
19 196 Q. So that Mr. Traynor was actually providing special
20 services of a non-audit nature to Guinness Mahon?
21 A. You have me thinking there because I would have been
22 very familiar with things like bills because I would
23 have looked after Haughey Boland's own accounts and
24 we never sent a bill to Guinness and Mahon but with
25 all the work he was doing who got paid for it, I
26 think he was keeping his end up in Haughey Boland as
27 well, working nights and weekends.
28 197 Q. At some point in his career he made contact with
29 Guinness Mahon and then got the opportunity to
43
1 advise them on project related assignments?
2 A. You are being very definitive about it. I think how
3 he came to their notice was maybe acting for some
4 client in some property situation where they may
5 have been another party to it and were very
6 impressed with him that's all I can say. I don't
7 know.
8 198 Q. Having impressed them they made him an offer that he
9 couldn't refuse. Is that what it sounds like?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 199 Q. He went there as deputy managing director, joint
12 managing director?
13 A. I think joint managing director. The structure
14 there at the time, I think George Mahon was still
15 there and John Guinness was certainly there because
16 I had dealings with John Guinness afterwards. Then
17 there was a William Forwood who was a Solicitor. I
18 don't know let's say whether George Mahon was
19 chairman and the other two joint Managing Directors.
20 I think when Des went in George Mahon may have
21 retired, John Guinness may have become Chairman and
22 he became joint Managing Director with William
23 Forwood. That would be what I would believe but I
24 could be slightly wrong there.
25 200 Q. Here we have someone who was an experienced partner
26 in a small firm of chartered accountants, who had
27 had limited experience of banking, being invited to
28 become the most senior person or one of the most
29 senior persons in a bank. Is that the nub of it?
44
1 A. Yes, that's the nub of it, yes.
2 201 Q. Right. Once Mr. Traynor had departed Haughey Boland
3 and joined Guinness Mahon, did your situation change
4 in Haughey Boland. Suddenly did more
5 responsibilities come you way?
6 A. It certainly changed in terms of percentage. I
7 would have been a junior partner and immediately
8 after that I became a senior partner.
9 202 Q. Who were your fellow partners at that stage?
10 A. At the time that Des Traynor left, Harry Boland was
11 a senior partner, Des Traynor was senior partner,
12 Frank Donnelly and myself two junior partners. But
13 there was an old situation with Mr. Haughey.
14 Mr. Haughey had never resigned from the partnership,
15 he never took benefit from it, but we, Mr. Donnelly
16 and myself were 10 percent partners each, that left
17 80 percent between the other three which was 26 and
18 2/3rd percent each. Will I skip all the thing and
19 say what happened at the end of day, at the end of
20 the day when we shuffled through the thing and
21 Mr. Traynor left, there were four twenty-five
22 percents being, Mr. Boland, Mr. Haughey,
23 Mr. Donnelly and myself. Mr. Haughey not
24 participating and his 25% was only memo and he never
25 took anything from it and hadn't for a number of
26 years.
27 203 Q. Because he was involved in other things?
28 A. Politics, yes.
29 204 Q. My question of you, did more responsibilities come
45
1 your way?
2 A. I was now effectively a third equal senior partner.
3 You were very busy all the time in those days. I am
4 not sure what extra responsibilities because I would
5 have been shouldering loads of responsibilities
6 anyway.
7 205 Q. You have already told us that some of your work was
8 insolvency work?
9 A. That's right.
10 206 Q. But there wasn't enough of that for it to be full
11 time and some of your work was as a general, if I
12 can use the term, audit partner. Did you suddenly
13 inherit some more audit client assignments for
14 instance?
15 A. I think Mr. Traynor was away from the auditing for
16 quite some time before he departed the scene. What
17 would I inherit?
18 207 Q. Did you get his clients. Were his clients passed to
19 you as the focal point?
20 A. I think they would have been passing to me over the
21 years. He was backing off from that. I presume so.
22 I can't remember in detail but I would presume that
23 I did.
24 208 Q. So he had gone and you and he had built up
25 considerable friendship over the times?
26 A. Absolutely.
27 209 Q. Did you see him and or Guinness and Mahon as a
28 potential source of more project work? For
29 instance, he had been providing these projects. He
46
1 had been servicing these projects and then he had
2 gone to be a managing director. Did that not
3 present you with an opportunity to work with
4 Guinness Mahon as a client?
5 A. No. I would have viewed Guinness Mahon as a bank.
6 They were an investment bank more than commercial
7 bankers. He was there. It would have been a
8 resource, I suppose, having a friend the managing
9 director of a bank is no harm, particularly when you
10 are in the insolvency and rescue operations and
11 things that might happen in that case. I don't know
12 that we tapped into a source in any particular way.
13 He was more friendly with me than with anybody else.
14 210 Q. Let me put a particular question, did you get the
15 opportunity to advise Guinness Mahon on any
16 troubled business assignments where, for instance,
17 things were going wrong and there was a business,
18 borrowing the money and what has subsequently become
19 know as a business review. Did you get a chance to
20 do that?
21 A. No, never on the assignment from Guinness Mahon.
22 211 Q. First, did you get invited by Mr. Traynor or indeed
23 others in Guinness Mahon, to attend any lunches
24 where they would have wanted to have told you what
25 they were doing?
26 A. It was the reverse in the sense in that I would have
27 given Guinness Mahon quite a bit of work, in the
28 sense of introducing clients to them, that they
29 would have provided facilities to and things like
47
1 that so I would have been well known. I was
2 certainly invited to a number of golf outings after
3 which there would be a dinner and I remember Maurice
4 O'Kelly, he had joined the bank later on, at one of
5 those dinners saying: "Listen you lot" and there
6 would be load of business men, "we are not going to
7 the expense of feeding you and giving you dinner
8 without getting some feedback from you that we want
9 business from you". That sort of thing. There was
10 never any detailed discussion about Guinness Mahon
11 or projects.
12 212 Q. Did they ever hold any seminars when they would
13 outlined some of the interesting new products which
14 I have no doubt they would have wanted to have
15 persuaded advisors to encourage clients to avail of?
16 A. I can't recall Haughey Boland being invited to any.
17 213 Q. Right. So that there wasn't much work coming to
18 Haughey Boland from Guinness Mahon / Mr. Traynor,
19 but there were opportunities coming from Haughey
20 Boland to Guinness Mahon?
21 A. That's right.
22 214 Q. Tell me about those?
23 A. In situations where financing might be off the
24 straight and narrow with some unusual situations, I
25 could have introduced clients to Guinness Mahon,
26 probably to Des Traynor to discuss and they were
27 some of them that clicked and they provided
28 substantial funding to them.
29 215 Q. All right. Then you decided that you would leave
48
1 Haughey Boland and I don't need to know anything
2 about why that was but, suddenly you had an
3 opportunity to setup your own business and last time
4 you told us that you had never been or didn't
5 consider yourself as a tax adviser.
6 A. I certainly never did that.
7 216 Q. And not an auditor either?
8 A. I was an auditor. Oh, sorry, when I set up in
9 business? No, no auditing and no tax.
10 217 Q. Mostly your business when you set up was in the
11 finance area with banks as raising loans and
12 organising securities and that stuff. Can I ask you
13 whether your business, at any stage because we have
14 been talking about the fairly early stage of all of
15 this up to now, at any stage from the time you set
16 up, did your business fall within the scope of
17 regulation of the Institute of Chartered Accountants
18 in Ireland?
19 A. Certainly not particularly in the earlier days or
20 even the later days I am not too sure where I would
21 fall within that scope.
22 218 Q. Let me suggest three areas, one might be auditing?
23 A. No, no auditing.
24 219 Q. The second might be insolvency?
25 A. I only completed the insolvency assignments where I
26 had been appointed liquidator or receiver. We
27 discussed it in Haughey Boland and it was easier, I
28 could have resigned and appointed somebody else but
29 it was considered better for me to finish out those
49
1 assignments.
2 220 Q. As they were personal appointments.
3 A. They were personal appointments, yes.
4 221 Q. The third area might be financial services?
5 A. I don't know what category that comes within or
6 where that would be.
7 222 Q. Mr. Stakelum, either you know that you had an
8 involvement at some point in your company's life
9 with the Institute, in terms of regulation and
10 meeting the regulatory requirements of the Institute
11 or you didn't?
12 A. That I had meetings with the Institute? I had no
13 meeting with the Institute.
14 223 Q. Sorry, I think you misheard me. You must know that
15 either you did come within the requirements of the
16 Institute in terms of their regulatory requirements
17 or you didn't.
18 A. I have to plead ignorance but I am not sure what
19 their regulatory requirements would have been in
20 connection with financial services. But I can quote
21 you chapter and verse exactly what Business
22 Enterprises Limited did.
23 224 Q. We will get to that in just a moment?
24 A. Yes .
25 225 Q. Can you please tell me what were the trading or
26 business names under which you have operated
27 businesses post Haughey Boland?
28 A. Business Enterprises Limited was the cornerstone of
29 all that.
50
1 226 Q. Starting?
2 A. Starting day one.
3 227 Q. 1975?
4 A. Yes. I might have had the company incorporated a
5 week or two beforehand.
6 228 Q. And being run down in 1998?
7 A. That's right.
8 229 Q. The next one?
9 A. I don't know if there is another one that I could
10 add to that but let me explain the peripherals.
11 There was a BEL Secretarial Limited. The BEL coming
12 from the Business Enterprise Limited, the initials.
13 That was incorporated with the purpose and view of
14 having it operate as secretary to companies and it
15 was certainly appointed as secretaries to some
16 companies. That has also been struck off but it
17 never issued an invoice, if I may so, or anything
18 like that. The work was carried out by the
19 personnel in Business Enterprises Limited. It was
20 just a name to have there for that.
21 230 Q. Could I clarify whether the name of that company was
22 B. E. L. Secretarial Limited or was it B. E. L.
23 Secretarial Services Limited?
24 A. The reason I am hesitating, I thought it was BEL
25 Secretarial Limited and may I go on about that.
26 B. E. L. Secretarial did nothing and was lying there
27 as a dormant company, until I was asked to take over
28 a situation for Mr. Haughey from Deloitte and I used
29 that company then. I believe it was B. E. L.

1 Secretarial Limited. I don't think I would have
2 used Services but what I did then, and that was the
3 first time it had a bank account was, in connection
4 with an operation for Mr. Haughey that has been
5 fairly well publicised and then I closed that bank
6 account down in February, I don't know in '91 or '92
7 I start to work for the Mr. Haughey thing.
8 231 Q. Did you wind the company up at the same time?
9 A. No, no. B. E. L. Secretarial, would you believe that
10 I don't know the status of that company at this
11 stage. No I do, sorry, we asked for it to be struck
12 off at the same time as Business Enterprises
13 Limited, probably in 1999 some time. But I closed
14 the bank account for it which was the only bank
15 account it ever had, 18 or 19 months after starting
16 with Mr. Haughey and put in B. E. L. Secretarial,
17 without a 'Limited'.
18 232 Q. Did you register that as a business name?
19 A. Yes.
20 233 Q. Were you involved in any other business name trading
21 entities?
22 A. Well I had Clyde Enterprises and before that I had
23 Business Enterprises without the Limited and then
24 subsequently I had Raglan Enterprises and Elgin
25 Enterprises.
26 234 Q. Is an entity by the name of Secretarial Trust
27 Company? Does that mean anything to you?
28 A. Oh, yes I would have been the instigator of that.
29 In Haughey Boland & Company days we did exactly
52
1 that; Haughey Boland being the auditors to a number
2 of clients we decided that it would be more
3 beneficial to have a secretarial company and
4 Secretarial Trust Company Limited was incorporated
5 as a company, way back in my days in Haughey Boland
6 & Company.
7 235 Q. So Secretarial Trust Company was a Haughey Boland
8 company?
9 A. That's right.
10 236 Q. And you set your own business up you told me?
11 A. December 1st '75.
12 237 Q. All right thank you.
13 238 Q. You told us that one of the services you provided
14 under Business Enterprises Limited was that you
15 would act as a non-executive director on behalf of
16 your clients?
17 A. Depending on their wishes. I would have been a
18 director of approximately 40 companies.
19 239 Q. Did you every perceive that acting in that capacity,
20 that is as a non-executive director, presented you
21 with a conflict of interest if you were also
22 promoting that company to a bank in respect of
23 obtaining a loan for the company of which you were
24 the Director?
25 A. I fail to see even now where the conflict of
26 interest would arise. Clients ask me to become a
27 director of AB Limited, in my capacity one of
28 functions is "look after our banking requirements;
29 go to see A.I.B or Guinness and Mahon or whoever in
53
1 that capacity, seek for a loan, I fail to see a
2 conflict.
3 240 Q. So the answer is you didn't see any possibility of a
4 conflict?
5 A. No.
6 241 Q. Turning now to the early stages of your business.
7 We know that you continue to work on the insolvency
8 assignments which you had brought with you from
9 Haughey Boland?
10 A. Yes.
11 242 Q. How long would it have taken you to have completed
12 those, roughly?
13 A. I think at the time there were about 42 or 43. That
14 has always stuck in my mind and I would believe that
15 forty of them might have been cleared within 12
16 months. One of them took about 20 years.
17 243 Q. So that besides that, how did you market your
18 business? How did you go about attracting new
19 clients?
20 A. Before I left Haughey Boland and Company there were
21 clients that were making more demands on you than
22 just auditing work. It might have started with
23 auditing work that they would come, they would look
24 for much more additional involvement than an annual
25 audit or something like that and in going and
26 talking to, because there was a whole array of
27 situations when I gave notice, I gave 12 months
28 notice in Haughey Boland on my departure. We
29 reached agreement on a number of issues, one
54
1 obviously being that I wind up the insolvency work.
2 In addition there were a number of clients that
3 continued to be clients of Haughey Boland and
4 Company in the auditing capacity but now that I
5 would have handled on more general work that I was
6 involved in with them and they would have come to
7 me, without leaving Haughey Boland. I wasn't doing
8 any auditing anyway.
9 244 Q. Does that mean that whenever you were leaving
10 Haughey Boland, all the clients that you dealt with
11 were written to say, by the firm, to say that
12 Mr. Stakelum was leaving?
13 A. No. I don't think that happened.
14 245 Q. So it was a case of you knocking on their doors
15 afterwards?
16 A. I think in discussion with clients you get close to
17 clients in talking to them and I would have said
18 that I am proposing to leave here in 6 months time
19 or 12 months time or whatever the case may be. Some
20 of them would have indicated that they wanted to
21 continue to utilise my services. Then that was a
22 question of discussing with Haughey Boland and
23 Company whether it was in order etc.
24 246 Q. Right. So that in essence, you may have been
25 consulted on, because this is what you indicated to
26 us last time, on helping them to raise money if they
27 needed money.
28 A. That would be one of the aspects of things, yes,
29 certainly.
55
1 247 Q. Were you also asked to help them if for instance if
2 they had a business entity which started to perform
3 badly?
4 A. Yes.
5 248 Q. That would have been the sort of thing that you
6 would have had to deal with in terms of receiveship
7 work?
8 A. Yes, rescue work.
9 249 Q. All right. Let me just change tack for a moment.
10 One of the things you said to us last time was that
11 you didn't advise on tax related issues and I think
12 you gave us the impression that tax was not
13 something with which you had a great deal of
14 knowledge?
15 A. I always had my own tax affairs handled by somebody
16 else. I could not hold myself out as having.
17 Obviously there is a little knowledge that you gain
18 but tax is so complicated these days that it
19 requires specialist work. I never could advise on
20 tax because I didn't have that expertise.
21 250 Q. But we do know you would have studied some tax for
22 your accountancy exams?
23 A. Surely
24 251 Q. That presumably, while you were a qualified senior
25 in Haughey Boland you would have had to have some
26 understanding of tax to do whatever tax related
27 activities were necessary as part of the accounting
28 audit procedure?
29 A. Very little, very little on that because you
56
1 obviously had to get the backup. I suppose there
2 would be sufficient knowledge to know where the
3 problems might lie but you would always be advised
4 by the specialist. You would have employed
5 specialists there. I couldn't give people advice on
6 even personal tax.
7 252 Q. But presumably you would have kept abreast of the
8 major events which were happening in terms of the
9 introduction of legislation by government. You
10 know, the budget issues?
11 A. You mean the taxation issues?
12 253 Q. Yes. I was thinking about the changes which came
13 about in 1974?
14 A. Capital gains tax came in then.
15 254 Q. Well, actually it was really about the transfer of
16 assets abroad legislation. Did that have an impact
17 on you?
18 A. No. I don't remember. I would probably as was
19 usual that immediately after a budget, seminars
20 would be arranged either by the Institute, like
21 breakfasts and lectures after breakfast for hours
22 or whatever or by Kennedy Crowley as it was, because
23 I was an ex-employee there which is now KPMG and
24 later on Deloittes and that and you would go to the
25 breakfast and you would listen to the changes but
26 you didn't absorb unless it was your particular
27 area.
28 255 Q. In 1975 of course the Government introduced import
29 and taxation legislation?
57
1 A. I am not familiar now with what happened.
2 256 Q. You wouldn't be familiar with the capital gains tax
3 legislation which was introduced in 1975?
4 A. I thought that was the 6th of April '74.
5 257 Q. And the wealth tax?
6 A. There was wealth tax introduced at some stage.
7 258 Q. Would these have been areas, Mr. Stakelum,
8 if you were dealing with business people and in some
9 cases wealthy individuals, they would have expected
10 you to have known about?
11 A. I certainly never -- and nobody would ever be coming
12 to me to give them taxation advice but what I did
13 for clients was certainly if there were areas that
14 needed advice I was able to either bring them or
15 direct them to the place where they could get that
16 advice and I would have to do that I would often go
17 with them to get the particular advice.
18 259 Q. The information you are providing is that you didn't
19 keep abreast as a professional advisor of major
20 changes in statute as they affected tax?
21 A. Certainly not, you are making me feel very
22 incompetent here but I have to admit to that.
23 260 Q. I am just trying to clarify the position?
24 A. That's right.
25 261 Q. Going back then to business, you were helping your
26 clients raise money and you had been dealing with
27 Mr. Traynor and Guinness Mahon before you left
28 Haughey Boland and you had been putting client
29 opportunities his way so that meant that you had at
58
1 least that relationship to start with?
2 A. With him.
3 262 Q. With him?
4 A. My relationship would have been far more, he was a
5 close personal friend as well.
6 263 Q. I understand. At the time did you perceive that
7 Guinness and Mahon had a particular interest in
8 lending money into any sector or sectors?
9 A. No, maybe excluding -- they weren't interested in
10 running things like overdrafts. I would have
11 thought probably fairly strong into property because
12 I certainly brought a few property situations there,
13 I think they were thrown out to tell you the truth.
14 264 Q. Property and maybe construction?
15 A. I am thinking of clients that might have a
16 development project you know for construction, yes
17 maybe construction would be part of that and if the
18 concept was unusual I used to say that I turned down
19 more propositions than bank managers because people
20 would come and be referred to me by somebody else
21 and they would come with crazy schemes that, my God
22 if I brought them to any bank the white-coat-men
23 would come and take me away, so I turned them down.
24 But if I felt the scheme was a runner or if you had
25 an existing client that let's say was insisting on
26 -- and you did your best and put your best foot
27 forward in application to wherever you felt it would
28 be best received.
29 Generally speaking is that where clients were
59
1 already with a bank that is the bank you dealt with
2 unless the nature of the financing was something
3 unusual.
4 265 Q. You did make the point that difficult situations may
5 well have been resolved by an approach to Mr.
6 Traynor.
7 A. Yes, in the sense that you could explain and he
8 would have recognised the source of me being honest
9 with some industry put into the effort and what I am
10 telling him to be true. I would be having a
11 receptive ear of somebody with the authority to
12 recommend strongly if not direct a credit committee
13 to make a loan.
14 266 Q. But of course in putting forward these loan
15 applications your interest was your clients
16 predominantly?
17 A. It couldn't be anybody else, yes of course.
18 267 Q. If there was and I suppose there would have been a
19 business plan or something of that sort a
20 description at least of the intent of the project to
21 support the application?
22 A. Yes.
23 268 Q. Were there business plans as we might know them?
24 A. Sure, each one would vary. You could be ringing up
25 and saying "Des, I want £10,000 on a short term
26 basis for so and so, would you instruct somebody
27 that that would be Okay", and that might be alright
28 but if you are talking about something very
29 substantial you would probably say, can I see you
60
1 and you would go down and see him and say listen I
2 have a concept of thinking, would this be a runner
3 with the bank and he might tell you fairly clearly
4 which is also a great advantage that it wouldn't be
5 because sometimes you can go through with bank
6 applications and discussions and find at the end of
7 the day that they were saying no but that were
8 always going to say no. So he could say no fairly
9 quickly, which would be helpful.
10
11 He might then say "well, you know, if you let me
12 have a,b,c,d,e whatever it might be and that might
13 include a business plan or a cash flow projection or
14 a profit projection or a schedule of assets or
15 whatever and then you would prepare that in that way
16 so there would be those things.
17 269 Q. How quickly after you started your own business did
18 Mr. Traynor raise with you the issue of supporting a
19 loan with a deposit elsewhere?
20 A. I really can't answer that, again that's purely a
21 question of looking back. We are probably talking
22 70's or 80's. I think I would have said in my
23 statement where you are talking -- if we are now
24 talking about back-to-backs as they were known.
25 270 Q. Well let me try and help you a little? You left us
26 with the impression last time that the predominant
27 part of your business was -- and incidently the
28 issue of insolvency work didn't crop up last time --
29 but the predominant part of your business was in
61
1 helping your clients raise loans from the banks.
2 You also indicated that quite quickly after you
3 started perhaps one to two years, you then began to
4 place deposits with Mr. Traynor, which deposits were
5 deposited offshore so that -- and I may come back to
6 the question of deposits. In the interim, was it
7 that the issue of deposits was then matched in your
8 mind with the issue of those deposits being tabled
9 to support the back-to-back loan? I want to know
10 how quickly that issue was brought to you by
11 Mr. Traynor?
12 A. I have to say that I don't know that but it could
13 have been and probably was sometime in the 70's,
14 late 70's. I mean I kind of discount '75 in so much
15 as I was only one month there on my own, so '76 is
16 out. The way your question comes across is almost
17 as if Mr. Traynor rang me up one day and said "Come
18 down Mr. Stakelum and you know that there are funds
19 abroad that can be used to secure a,b, or c. I
20 don't see that happening at all.
21
22 I think I would have said in my statement,
23 personally I would be strongly opposed to what they
24 call back-to-back arrangements but you met the needs
25 of clients as best you could.
26 271 Q. Without wanting to seem impolite, we understand this
27 aspect because you explained it to us last time.
28 You see, you already explained to us that mostly
29 work flowed either from Haughey Boland or yourself
62
1 to Mr. Traynor and GMI and not very much of anything
2 flowed back the other way?
3 A. I am trying to think at the moment if there was
4 anything that came back the other way.
5 272 Q. And that you only had a very hazy view of what
6 Mr. Traynor was doing in terms of his overseas
7 banking activities and GMCT and so on. At some
8 point along the line someone had to explain to you
9 the possibilities of doing a back-to-back situation,
10 that is what I am trying to understand.
11 A. Okay.
12 273 Q. How did all of that happen because it had to come
13 from Mr. Traynor because it couldn't have come from
14 you because you didn't know?
15 A. I am trying to think to put this as clearly as I
16 can. I think the knowledge of back-to-back
17 situations, of using funds that were somewhere else
18 would have been something that one would have known
19 about, maybe before I left Haughey Boland. Don't
20 forget he had arranged a scheme which was
21 effectively an eye view, a back-to-back by lending
22 me £40,000, that loan that you referred to. Now I
23 think that...(INTERJECTION)
24 274 Q. That is in 19?
25 A. That was certainly when I was in Haughey Boland and
26 Company because I thought capital gains came in '74
27 and you said '75 earlier on but it would have been
28 finished at that stage because there was no further
29 advantage. What would have happened is clients
63
1 certainly approached me and asked me to -- now, I
2 don't want to use the word monitor because
3 Mr. Costello didn't like that word -- to handle
4 their funds, record, reconcile, I am not sure what
5 words to use, which would have been handled through
6 Guinness Mahon. Let me say, I believed Guinness
7 Mahon Caymen Trust. I believed and I don't know the
8 answer to that now because of other developments
9 that have taken place since but I believe that.
10
11 That part of my business was tiny. I wouldn't have
12 viewed it almost as a business, it was a convenience
13 or a facility offered to clients that looked for
14 that. I am even regretting saying that the major
15 part of my business was organising loans. Of
16 course, I organised loans and for the companies that
17 I was involved in I don't think, you know that that
18 would be a big function but if you then came along
19 and said to me "How many loans did you organise in
20 '84", it may have been two, I don't know because
21 there was a whole pile of other work that was done.
22
23 I think what would have happened there is that there
24 would have been funds placed abroad with Mr. Traynor
25 and at some stage some client or other is looking
26 for funds and Mr. Traynor is saying what about the
27 possibility of using the funds as security. Now, I
28 am not going to swear to that because I don't know
29 that that's the way it happened.
64
1 275 Q. But it is likely that the idea was promoted by
2 Mr. Traynor, is it not?
3 A. It certainly is in the sense that I wouldn't be
4 generally in favour of that. That was a last resort
5 situation of financing.
6 276 Q. You told us to the best of your knowledge you could
7 only think of one situation, was it Mr. Keane?
8 A. That is the only one I can think of, we are talking
9 about...(INTERJECTION)
10 277 Q. Beside your own one of course which of course
11 preceded your business?
12 A. Yes, and wasn't the same at all. That certainly
13 wasn't the same at all. That wasn't funds that I
14 had abroad confidentially, that was a situation that
15 I would have known nothing about until he suggested
16 that to me.
17 278 Q. Right.
18 A. That is the one I can think of. It may be that out
19 of woodwork some other one would come but I am not
20 sure.
21 279 Q. All right. Then let me summarise where we are at
22 and let me say that I do appreciate that this is
23 quite a long time ago and I am not going to try and
24 ask you to remember things absolutely to a month or
25 even to a year because I recognise that that is
26 going to be very difficult unless one has something
27 more concrete to put forward.
28
29 After you started your business in the second half
65
f
1 of the 7 0 f s you were helping your clients to raise
2 loans and you were helping your clients also to deal
3 with some monies which they had either already
4 abroad or which they wished to deposit offshore and
5 then arising from those two activities you learned
6 from Mr. Traynor about the possibility of supporting
7 a loan in Ireland with a back-to-back deposit in
8 Caymen or somewhere else in the second half of the
9 ' 70 ' s?
10 A. I think that is an accurate summary of the
11 situation.
12 280 Q. At our last interview we spent sometime talking
13 about the situation where one of your clients said I
14 have some overseas money and it is somewhere outside
15 of Ireland and the client said to you look,
16 Mr. Stakelum I would like you to monitor, may I use
17 the word manage?
18 A. Yes.
19 281 Q. As opposed to monitor, might we understand that a
20 bit better?
21 A. Yes.
22 282 Q. To manage this money for me and what we understand
23 from that Mr. Stakelum is that he wanted to make
24 sure he was getting the best rate of interest on his
25 money or if there was other issues of an investment
26 or taxation nature that he was doing the best he
27 could with his capital?
28 A. No.
29 283 Q. No?
66
1 A. Absolutely not because that would give a
2 connotation that I would be giving advice about
3 investment and I never did that because you were on
4 a hiding to nothing. I wasn't a qualified
5 stockbroker or anything like that. So I never said
6 to a client, you should do this or you should do
7 that or you should do the other. They totally gave
8 me the instructions. They understood that their
9 funds were purely on deposit. I would have advised
10 them about rates available of deposit, that was it.
11
12 In some cases some clients asked me to buy shares
13 for them, public company shares, which I did, if
14 they so instructed. I instructed whoever it was who
15 would buy the shares and in many cases, no, now that
16 is not true, in one particular case I was abhorred
17 about share purchases.
18 284 Q. Sorry, we are digressing a little. Let me just keep
19 you to the point. Somebody had some money abroad
20 and he said look I would like you to manage this for
21 me by way of getting me a better rate of interest?
22 A. I doubt if the conversation was like that, but carry
23 on.
24 285 Q. That was the nub of it, would it not be? You looked
25 around...(INTERJECTION)
26 A. Well, I think there were other factors but go on.
27 286 Q. You looked around and you found that there may have
28 been a number of options, one of which might have
29 been GMCT, so, having established that you would put
67
1 these options in front of your client and say which
2 of them are you going to select or would you have
3 said that there makes more sense?
4 A. No.
5 287 Q. How would you have done it?
6 A. I will tell you how I believe I would have do it, I
7 would have said -- there are other reasons for
8 looking after monies and monitoring or managing as
9 the case may be, from just the interest rate, but
10 letting that one go for a minute, what I would have
11 said I think is that Guinness and Mahon have an
12 offshore operation. That is the only place that I
13 can handle the funds through and it would be up to
14 them to decide whether or not they transferred to
15 there. I wasn't aware of other options or
16 presenting them with options.
17 288 Q. So you explained to people that Guinness and Mahon
18 had an offshore option. Did you then present them
19 with some sort of an information sheet about
20 Guinness and Mahon's offshore option?
21 A. Absolutely not.
22 289 Q. No?
23 A. In all the funds that I got over all the years from
24 all the clients never once did I give them a piece
25 of paper acknowledging that I got the funds. In all
26 the years, in all the clients passing back their
27 funds, I never asked for a piece of paper to
28 acknowledge that they received them back. This was
29 a situation where people trusted you and that was
68
1 the end of story.
2 290 Q. So, effectively they trusted you to make a
3 recommendation?
4 A. About what? They would have been aware that their
5 funds were going on deposit in a bank.
6 291 Q. Yes and that as far as you were concerned you
7 believed that was first of all a solid institution
8 and that it was presenting the best interest
9 opportunity for them? You were recommending it,
10 because they had nothing else to go on except your
11 recommendation?
12 A. They were getting the value of my service in the
13 situation and that was being handled through
14 Guinness and Mahon who were a bank. I had the
15 occasional fight with Guinness and Mahon on their
16 interest rates and sometimes they weren't as good as
17 other people but that was the package, it was
18 Guinness and Mahon they were getting and that was a
19 bank.
20 292 Q. And you had...(INTERJECTION)
21 A. And their funds were just on deposit.
22 293 Q. And you recommended it?
23 A. The truth is, if you really want the truth, I
24 wouldn't have recommended any of it, because it was
25 a nothing for me, it has proven a hell of problem at
26 this stage in my life having got rid of it and I
27 didn't make any money out of it. So, I didn't come
28 along and approve this or recommend it. I provided
29 a facility that they looked for.

1 294 Q. Did you every recommend any of your clients to put
2 money into merchant banking?
3 A. No.
4 295 Q. All right, thank you. Last time we discussed this
5 matter you explained that you thought the issue of
6 dealing with clients deposit, perhaps arose as an
7 issue made from some clients who had money abroad
8 and they wanted to organise it differently and you
9 would have -- because the money was abroad and you
10 knew that Mr. Traynor was dealing with offshore
11 interests, you would have gone along and talked to
12 him about that situation and having thought about it
13 he would have recommended a course of action. You
14 thought about it and you felt it was appropriate and
15 you would have gone back and suggested that to your
16 client. If your client was inclined to take your
17 recommendation then Mr. Traynor would have provided
18 routing. I think was the word you used,
19 instructions, for how the money got from wherever it
20 was in your clients control into Mr. Traynor and in
21 GMCT's control, is that right?
22 A. That's right.
23 296 Q. Routing instructions. I want to explore those
24 routing instructions with you. Did you provide
25 Mr. Traynor with your clients name?
26 A. I can't remember specific instances but by and large
27 he wouldn't have known the names.
28 297 Q. Yes, that is what you said.
29 A. By and large.
70
1 298 Q. May I assume that it was unlikely or less likely
2 that he didn't know your clients name?
3 A. Less likely.
4 299 Q. But he might have?
5 A. He might have.
6 300 Q. He would have said to you, would you ask your client
7 to lodge his money to a particular bank, account
8 reference this, isn't that right?
9 A. That's right.
10 301 Q. So, that is all your client knew, that he had sent
11 money to a particular bank of Mr. Traynor's and that
12 thereafter you didn't worry about it and your client
13 didn't worry about it because Mr. Traynor looked
14 after it?
15 A. Yes .
16 302 Q. So, you didn't know where the money had gone?
17 A. No, I mean, I would have known with the
18 instructions, the first receiving back that we got.
19 303 Q. But that probably wouldn't have been Guinness and
20 Mahon Caymen Trust Limited, would it?
21 A. Probably not.
22 304 Q. You said last time that there was usually an
23 intermediate?
24 A. I think that's the way they operate, I guess if I
25 rang up somebody or somebody asked me to transfer
26 £10,000 from the bank of Madrid in Bilbao or New
27 York, I would have to get moving instructions and it
28 would probably go through other banks along the way,
29 because they were receiving banks we had.

1 305 Q. Let's suppose that this money started off in your
2 clients control in dollars. It moved through in
3 dollars to GMCT and if it was felt that it was
4 desirable to retain it in dollars then there was
5 presumably opened a dollar account in GMCT, yes?
6 A. Well, yes I presume if they took dollars and kept
7 dollars they had a dollar account, yes.
8 306 Q. That's all I am asking you?
9 A. Yes.
10 307 Q. What sort of record did you keep of that
11 transaction?
12 A. Very same as any other.
13 308 Q. So, you kept a dollar account?
14 A. Dollar and sterling.
15 309 Q. Pardon?
16 A. Dollar and sterling.
17 310 Q. Yes but in this case we are just dealing with
18 dollars, you kept a dollar account?
19 A. Yes.
20 311 Q. Let me suppose another client came along to you and
21 said I want to transfer Deutschmark, the same
22 process and you kept a Deutschmark account?
23 A. Yes, except I don't think I every had one.
24 312 Q. And somebody else a French Franc account?
25 A. I think I only had two accounts, dollars and
26 sterling but it is possibly at some stage I may well
27 have had, I don't know.
28 313 Q. On that point you have told us that you had no idea
29 of the names of those accounts, sorry excuse me, the
72
1 reference numbers of those accounts maintained by
2 Mr. Traynor?
3 A. No, I now realise I don't even know where the money
4 was but I mean...(INTERJECTION)
5 314 Q. That is the second point?
6 A. I think I would have had a reference or some code
7 reference but I can't remember. It certainly
8 wouldn't have been what was shown to me there.
9 315 Q. Would you try and think back please and tell me what
10 sort of code reference you might have had?
11 A. I think you asked me this the last day and I figured
12 it was probably an initial and a number but I just
13 don't know.
14 316 Q. Do you think you had some code reference for
15 Mr. Traynor?
16 A. I guess so, I think so, yes. You see you made
17 reference to the fact of how do you identify when
18 you ring up to get your monthly balances and the
19 likelihood -- first of all they would have known and
20 what account it was but I might have said something
21 like I wanted a balance on B7 or -- I don't remember
22 what that code was.
23 317 Q. I am prepared to accept that you may, you believe,
24 have been given some sort of reference code from
25 Mr. Traynor?
26 A. Yes.
27 318 Q. We have been speaking up to now about money, your
28 clients money, which was already overseas and it
29 moved from some overseas bank into the control of
73
1 Mr. Traynor and you believe that probably meant that
2 it was with GMCT?
3 A. I did believe.
4 319 Q. Pardon?
5 A. I did believe that.
6 320 Q. You did believe that?
7 A. I am not sure I believe it now.
8 321 Q. What about clients who had money available in
9 Ireland which they wished to put into a good
10 investment?
11 A. If they wish to transfer Irish pounds abroad, I
12 think at a stage, at an early stage, there was no
13 problems about that because I think the pound and
14 the sterling were one of the same and that there was
15 no restriction on sterling so it could just be moved
16 abroad offshore. At a later stage that was a
17 problem and the only way that that could be done
18 would be to supplant and replace funds. If somebody
19 wanted to take funds back from abroad and somebody
20 wanted to put them out, you could do it by journal
21 entry.
22 322 Q. Before we get to that, if someone had a sum of money
23 which they wished to put on deposit as their advisor
24 you had a number of options open to you, you could
25 have advised them to deposit it in Ireland or you
26 could have advised them to deposit it offshore. If
27 you were talking about advising them to go offshore
28 it could have gone offshore with a number of other
29 organisations who provide offshore facilities or it

1 could have gone through GMCT, how did you decide
2 when advising your clients which was the most
3 appropriate?
4 A. They weren't options that I perceived as being
5 available at that time. Anyway what I had was a
6 situation through Guinness and Mahon where there
7 were offshore funds, unless it was an initial
8 lodgement for a client he might already be in that
9 Hotchpotch account, so to speak.
10 323 Q. I am talking about a client that hadn't any previous
11 involvement with Guinness and Mahon?
12 A. I don't know what the circumstances was but in the
13 situation, it wasn't a question of sitting down and
14 putting various options to clients about whether he
15 would invest here or away. It would be taking
16 instruction from a client that he wished his funds
17 to be placed offshore.
18
19 So, I didn't had an option of saying well you really
20 should go down the road and put that on the Trustees
21 Savings Bank or something. I would be taking an
22 instruction and he would be aware that I was
23 operating through Guinness and Mahon. I wouldn't be
24 offering or indeed aware of other options that might
25 be available to me if he wanted to put funds
26 offshore.
27 324 Q. Your client would be aware that you were operating
28 through Guinness and Mahon?
29 A. That's right.
75
1 325 Q. In effect if you had a client who wanted to put
2 money offshore you advise them to put it through
3 Guinness and Mahon?
4 A. Yes, if he was asking me to handle it that's the way
5 I would do it.
6 326 Q. That's what we are talking about isn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 327 Q. You got the sum of money, would you explain to me
9 the process please from that point on. Your client
10 produced the money in what form?
11 A. Probably in cash.
12 328 Q. As in notes?
13 A. As in notes, yes.
14 329 Q. Large sums of money in notes?
15 A. Well, there might have been tens of thousands.
16 330 Q. All right, large sums of money in notes?
17 A. Yes.
18 331 Q. What happened then?
19 A. They would have been lodged to, let's say Clyde
20 Enterprises.
21 332 Q. Did you open the Clyde Enterprises Account fairly
22 early on in your business?
23 A. No, but I had one previous to that, Business
24 Enterprises.
25 333 Q. Right. So, the money that was put into Clyde
26 Enterprises?
27 A. Or Business Enterprises maybe, yes. Let's assume the
28 sum of money was £10,000.
29 334 Q. Yes?
76
1 A. It would be lodged in there and I could only say,
2 and this is post the time when it was no longer
3 possible to transfer funds abroad.
4 335 Q. Yes.
5 A. I would be saying to the client, if and when I have
6 an opportunity I will transfer that abroad and when
7 an opportunity presented itself where somebody might
8 ask for £6,000 in cash I would draw the £6,000 in
9 cash.
10 336 Q. Out the £10,000 that you had received?
11 A. Yes, and then do a journal entry for the abroad sums
12 crediting one client with the £6,000 and debiting
13 the -- subject to whatever the exchange rate was
14 etcetera.
15 337 Q. But you had to do a bit more than that didn't you?
16 You had to tell Mr. Traynor?
17 A. No, I had not. I most certainly had not. Why would
18 I tell him.
19 338 Q. Because you had just taken a new deposit which was
20 allegedly going to...(INTERJECTION)
21 A. Into my Hotchpotch Account. He wouldn't have know
22 about it, I most certainly did not tell him and
23 that's why he couldn't know. The Hotchpotch Account
24 wouldn't have changed in balance, how would it
25 change.
26 339 Q. So, you explained to your client when he was
27 presenting you his £10,000 that you were going to
28 invest this on his behalf in an offshore account
29 with Guinness and Mahon. Did that not mean that you
77
1 had to tell Mr. Traynor at some point?
2 A. No, it did not.
3 340 Q. No?
4 A. Absolutely not.
5 341 Q. So all Mr. Traynor knew was that every so often you
6 sent him a tranche of money?
7 A. That wouldn't involve a tranche of money.
8 342 Q. But we do know that every so often you withdrew some
9 money.
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 343 Q. Every so often you requested some money from
12 Mr. Traynor?
13 A. If the clients requests for funds were -- if I
14 didn't have funds to meet what their requests were.
15 344 Q. Yes. I am intrigued then because somewhere along
16 the line the accountancy doesn't work. How
17 Mr. Stakelum, if you never transferred money to
18 Mr. Traynor did Clyde Enterprises have money with
19 Mr. Traynor in the first instance.
20 A. Somebody has got lost in this thing. Clyde
21 Enterprises never had money with Mr. Traynor, never
22 had.
23 345 Q. Never had?
24 A. Never had and I am not sure where you are losing
25 the plot here Mr. Rowan.
26 346 Q. Try and help me because I understood -- let me put a
27 big idea to you -- I understood that you encouraged
28 your clients to put money into GMCT to avail of
29 whatever the advantages of doing that was?
78
1 A. I have to question your "encourage", I did not but I
2 was asked to facilitate him by doing that.
3 Encourage them is that wrong word.
4 347 Q. Would you explain to me then please how that was
5 done?
6 A. Yes, I will. Let's take the simple situation, let's
7 assume that there is an account in existence in
8 GMCT.
9 348 Q. What do you mean by that?
10 A. I find that hard to explain.
11 349 Q. I am finding it even harder to understand?
12 A. There is an account in existence, the Hotchpotch
13 account.
14 350 Q. How did it start what was the first transaction that
15 started it?
16 A. Okay, I don't know what the first transaction was
17 but let me speculate may I, it was possible that a
18 client came to me and said, "Jack I have funds
19 abroad I would like you to monitor them", or in your
20 terminology, manage them, or reconcile or whatever,
21 control them or whatever the word is and "I am not
22 comfortable with wherever the funds are for what
23 ever reason" and there may be many reasons why he
24 might not be and I would maybe have said at that
25 stage, "Well, Guinness and Mahon have an offshore
26 operation and I can arrange to have the funds
27 transferred to Guinness and Mahon and I would look
28 after them for you from that point on.
29
1 We talk about what the interest is, the only thing
2 that I would have told them was that the money goes
3 on a bank and it goes on deposit but they probably
4 were aware that it was Guinness and Mahon that I was
5 talking about. They would not be aware whether it
6 was Guinness and Mahon Caymen Trust as I suspected
7 or College Trustees or whatever which maybe it was
8 that I didn't know until recently.
10 I would say I'll have to find out how I get a
11 routing for this. I would probably, undoubtedly
12 initially have talked to Mr. Traynor and said; "I
13 have a client with foreign funds, he wants them
14 transferred into a situation where I would look
15 after them and what are you going to do for me?",
16 and he would say "Look you transfer them here and
17 here is the routing situation. The client has to
18 give instructions to Royal Bank of Scotland in
19 Jersey or wherever. He has to give instructions
20 where they are under his control to transfer X
21 pounds maybe to Guinness and Mahon London, Account
22 Caymen, reference number XYZ, I don't know what
23 those instructions would have been. I would come
24 back to the client and I would say "Here there is
25 your instructions now, you give instructions to
26 your bank whoever the authorised signatory is on
27 them and that's where the funds have to be moved to
28 and when they are moved tell me and I will tell
29 Guinness Mahon and then Guinness Mahon presumably
80
1 did whatever they do with those bank funds. It may
2 suit them to use half them there in London and the
3 other half in Hong Kong but they would finish up
4 giving credit, presumably in GMCT and that's number
5 one point of a Hotchpotch Account because that would
6 have happened on a number of occasions and they all
7 finish up in the same account.
8 351 Q. So, the Hotchpotch started with funds that were
9 already abroad?
10 A. Yes, so, I believe, incidently it is possible that
11 somebody came in at a stage, and I didn't know this,
12 when exchange control regulations started that you
13 could transfer funds from Irish currency into
14 sterling and there was no restriction on sterling.
15 I don't know exactly how that started it is aeons
16 ago and that.
17 352 Q. If in fact the Hotchpotch Account started with
18 overseas money, let's suppose that the Hotchpotch
19 Account started with five hundred thousand pounds,
20 then providing you never needed to withdraw more
21 than five hundred thousand pounds the system worked
22 because each time you got a new deposit in Ireland
23 you put that into Clyde Enterprises and while you
24 had money in Clyde Enterprises you could repay
25 people who wanted to withdraw, yes?
26 A. Absolutely.
27 353 Q. If in fact the people who started the Hotchpotch
28 Account, the five hundred thousand, if they wanted
29 to withdraw that amount then you had a problem
81
1 because there was no further monies overseas.
2 A. I don't know where I have a problem, where have I a
3 problem there? What you are talking about if
4 clients give you money they had it and they wanted
5 to withdraw they got it back.
6 354 Q. Yes?
7 A. No problem.
8 355 Q. Yes, but I think you might accept that if you
9 exclude any new deposits that once the five hundred
10 thousand pounds that started it all had been
11 withdrawn here in Ireland, then the Hotchpotch
12 account would have been zero?
13 A. That's right.
14 356 Q. If it got to zero?
15 A. Yes .
16 357 Q. New deposits in Ireland?
17 A. That's right I wouldn't be able to make further
18 deposits, I agree with you, yes.
19 358 Q. So effectively while that didn't happen, while the
20 amount that was originally used to create the
21 Hotchpotch Account, in effect when people gave you a
22 new deposit you lodged it in the AIB, in Clyde
23 Enterprises, if somebody wanted a withdrawal you
24 gave hem a withdrawal and as far as they were
25 concerned they had money on deposit with Guinness
26 and Mahon offshore?
27 A. Yes, I would say that is a reasonable conclusion.
28 359 Q. But if fact they had money on deposit with Clyde
29 Enterprises ?
1 A. No, no, no, no. Clyde Enterprises had no deposit
2 account, Clyde Enterprises merely had a current
3 account and let me tell you some of the
4 restrictions? When people came with me, with just
5 say the £10,000 and they wanted it placed abroad I
6 would have to say to them, this is assuming that
7 there are exchange control restrictions in at that
8 stage, I would have to say to them, "if and when the
9 opportunity arises I will place the funds abroad
10 for you".
11 360 Q. That might have been a month later?
12 A. It might have been a month later.
13 361 Q. What did they do for the interest?
14 A. They were quite happy to understand and I explained
15 to them in detail, until such time as the money went
16 on deposit abroad they earned no interest.
17 362 Q. Did you explain this to them?
18 A. I did and furthermore you would have the situation
19 where it wouldn't be black and white that if they
20 gave £10,000 they might get £6,000 abroad in a week
21 and it might take them another month to get the
22 other £4,000 or it might be £3,000 would get in
23 another fortnight and the other £1,000 might be
24 another month and that would be explained to them
25 and understood.
26
27 I have and still enjoy a great trust relationship
28 with my clients and they understood it and I made
29 nothing out of that because it was on current
83
1 account.
2 363 Q. Why?
3 A. Why.
4 364 Q. Why not put it on deposit?
5 A. Very simple. If I put that on deposit I would have
6 to explain where it came from and that wouldn't be
7 part of the confidentiality of the funds.
8 365 Q. Because you had it in a current account you wouldn't
9 have to explain it?
10 A. I wouldn't, who would I have to explain it to? If
11 it was on a deposit account it would earn interest
12 and attract attention.
13 366 Q. Attract attention?
14 A. Yes .
15 367 Q. Just explain that to me?
16 A. Well the Revenue would be aware of it for a start
17 off, of the funds, that there would have been
18 deposit interest earned and there would be returns
19 of that made by the banks at those stages.
20 368 Q. So, once you took a new deposit of £2,000, you put
21 that into your current account?
22 A. Clyde Enterprises current account, yes, which was
23 mine, I owned Clyde.
24 369 Q. Yes I understand. You didn't need to tell
25 Mr. Traynor he didn't need to know that?
26 A. Not alone did he not need but he would never have
27 been told and secondly he wouldn't have the remotest
28 interest, what interest would it be to him?
29 370 Q. Forgive me, I thought that a banker needed to know
84
1 his clients?
2 A. Not necessarily the depositors.
3 371 Q. All right. Leave those aside. Earlier on I give
4 you some instances about money coming from a dollar
5 account and being held in a dollar account and some
6 more money coming in a different currency and being
7 held in that currency, how can all of that have been
8 recorded in a single Hotchpotch account?
9 A. It couldn't. There could have been two or three
10 Hotchpotch accounts. I can only remember two,
11 dollar and sterling were segregated. At stages I
12 think clients asked me to switch from dollar to
13 sterling or sterling to dollar, that would have been
14 their decision so you would be switching from one
15 Hotchpotch to another.
16 372 Q. Taking Mr. Keane for instance, Mr. Keane had a
17 back-to-back?
18 A. Yes.
19 373 Q. The way Guinness and Mahon had the back-to-back set
20 up was that the offshore deposit had to be known and
21 matched against the lending that Guinness and Mahon
22 provided, so there had to be a linkage between the
23 two?
24 A. Yes.
25 374 Q. The deposit was hypoticated, i.e., it couldn't go
26 anywhere while the loan remained outstanding, how
27 was Mr. Keane's deposit dealt with in the light of
28 what you have been explaining and in the light of
29 what I just told you?
85
1 A. I don't know specifically but if I can tell you what
2 I believe would have happened, they would probably
3 have moved the appropriate amount out of the
4 Hotchpotch Account to a specially identified
5 account, probably.
6 375 Q. How would that have been recorded in your records?
7 A. No, need for it or I may have done the same thing, I
8 may have taken...(INTERJECTION)
9 376 Q. Which is it Mr. Stakelum?
10 A. I suppose I probably did the same thing, but the
11 same thing in my book would be a very simple thing
12 where I have a schedule of deposits and I merely
13 split Mr. Keane's deposit, let's assume that he had
14 £100,000 and they wanted to back £80,000, I would
15 probably have described Mr. Keane as £20,000 free
16 funds and £80,000, if you want to use the word
17 hypoticated.
18 377 Q. How would you known about that? Somebody would have
19 had to have explained that for you from the Guinness
20 and Mahon side of things?
21 A. Sure I would have arranged his loan.
22 378 Q. It would be all explained to you that while the loan
23 was outstanding he couldn't touch that element of
24 his deposit.
25 A. Yes, that doesn't take a lot of explaining.
26 379 Q. Forgive me, I don't know how it worked, I am trying
27 to get you to explain it to me, so now I understand
28 Mr. Stakelum that you would have known about the
29 back-to-back situation because on the one hand you
86
1 knew about Mr. Keane's deposit and on the other hand
2 you knew because you had negotiated his loan?
3 A. That's right. I have my doubts if Mr. Keane was
4 ever in the premises of Guinness and Mahon in his
5 life, he may have been.
6 380 Q. For placing all this business with Guinness and
7 Mahon, did you earn remuneration?
8 A. From Guinness and Mahon.
9 381 Q. Yes?
10 A. Quite the reverse. No, I did not and eventually I
11 left Guinness and Mahon because their charges were
12 too high.
13 382 Q. You didn't earn any remuneration from Guinness Mahon
14 or Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust or any other related
15 entity controlled or directed by Mr. Traynor?
16 A. No.
17 383 Q. Did your remuneration then come from your clients?
18 I don't need to know the detail, I just need the
19 answer to that question?
20 A. The answer to that -- any remuneration that was
21 there came from the clients but it varied greatly
22 and it barely covered costs and eventually wasn't
23 covering costs so that is why I moved out of
24 Guinness and Mahon.
25 384 Q. So for providing all of these management services
26 you traded at a very modest if at all surplus?
27 A. Well, for all of these management services, Mr.
28 Rowan, it was a relatively simple operation, there
29 were only deposits earning interest and a
87
1 reconciliation once a month, that's number one.
2 Number two, Guinness Mahon made the charges not me.
3 They had charges for this that and the other, there
4 is nobody like banks to be able to make charges,
5 that's number two. Number three, my clients that
6 used foreign deposits varied and there were
7 different kinds of categories. Some very close
8 friends or relations that weren't charged, some who
9 I was acting for in Business Enterprises Limited
10 anyway and charging fees to Business Enterprises
11 Limited where there was no additional charge and
12 others that were in neither of those categories that
13 I would have charged to cover costs.
14
15 One of the things that hasn't been understood and I
16 recognise that your inquiry is necessary on these
17 things, this was a tiny percentage of what I was
18 involved in. I was busy doing things all the time
19 trying to earn money for Business Enterprises and
20 this was nothing. It was a nothing so much that I
21 eventually moved out of Guinness Mahon because they
22 made some extra special charges and eventually gave
23 all the money back to the clients because it was no
24 good to me.
25
26 Therefore when you talk about whether I had an
27 account personally, I hadn't an account personally
28 in Guinness Mahon. I could have used the facility
29 to draw some dollars periodically for this but it
88
1 would have compensated somewhere along the line.
3 So, it wasn't managing all these funds, it wasn't
4 investments, it was your money that they wanted to
5 put on deposit and the only other service to that
6 where they asked me "Can you buy shares with those
7 funds if you want to?", and they gave the
8 instructions "Buy AIB shares" or anything you want.
9 385 Q. Thank you very much?
10 A. That was my involvement.
11 386 Q. Okay. Ms. Mackey wants to pick up a matter with you
12 I hope will not be very long, I am conscious that it
13 is ten past one and we should be trying to take a
14 break.
15 A. Are we coming back after lunch.
16 387 Q. I am hoping that we can avoid doing that.
17 A. My solicitor has to leave at half one.
18 MS. MACKEY: We should finish in ten
19 minutes. Basically Mr.
20 Stakelum, because matters had gone on so long this
21 morning, we haven't got around to the question of
22 your clients at all and that is something that will
23 take some time. It seems to me that we if we can't
24 do that today, unless we come back after lunch and
25 since you weren't prepared for that I think the
26 better option would be to ask you to come back
27 another day to do that. We will be able to shorten
28 what will happen on the next day if I could suggest
29 something to you now.
89
1 A. Sure.
2 388 Q. First of all you give us a list of clients on the
3 last day that you were here, that doesn't appear to
4 be a full list?
5 A. It is as full as I can come up with at the moment.
6 I would have -- like all the records were destroyed.
7 389 Q. Yes?
8 A. I am open to the fact that there may be other ones
9 but where I had to work from, if I may, is work from
10 the fact where I disengage with clients in '97/'98
11 and some earlier than that, because all the records
12 were destroyed. Look at closing transcripts of them
13 and worked back and said who was there in the days
14 of the Guinness and Mahon runs and who were there
15 subsequently in AIB.
16 390 Q. Basically are you saying that this is all that you
17 can remember but there may well be others?
18 A. Well, I mean you can produce documents to me that I
19 can't remember anything about and maybe you can do
20 that, that is possible but there is no client or
21 name deliberately left off that list.
22 391 Q. That is what I am asking you but is it possible that
23 if we were to put other names to you, you might
24 recollect them?
25 A. Absolutely.
26 392 Q. Well what I would like to ask you to do if you
27 would, in respect of all the names that you have
28 given us?
29 A. Yes.
90
1 393 Q. If before our next meeting you could provide us in
2 written form with the particular services that that
3 client had in Ansbacher. In other words, whether
4 the client had a deposit, whether they had a
5 back-to-back loan and any detail that you can give
6 us of that person, except amounts, we don't require
7 amounts but any detail of the deposit, when it was
8 opened and when it was closed, insofar as you can?
9 A. Can I just say, Ms. Mackey, here I have no way of
10 knowing that and all I could do is go back to the
11 client in question and say when. I have been down
12 that route without a lot of success and that's all I
13 could do in connection with that. You are talking
14 about the date that is was open. You see the
15 service that is given is simple, I could look at the
16 clients and say, no back-to-back because I had very
17 few of them.
18 394 Q. Could you do that?
19 A. I will certainly do that and the dates of when they
20 were opened. All I can say is that I believe all of
21 the clients on that list were opened at or before
22 the mid 80's.
23 395 Q. Yes?
24 A. Do you know, because I think after that I was moving
25 to get myself out of Guinness and Mahon.
26 396 Q. For example could you tell us in respect of each of
27 them whether they were clients who already had
28 monies abroad or clients who came to you with Irish
29 money wishing to put it abroad.
91
1 A. Some are in both categories, do you know what I
2 mean?
3 397 Q. Could you make your best estimate, you can say that
4 you are uncertain certainly but it would help us to
5 have whatever information basically you can give us
6 about each of those clients because otherwise I will
7 have to go through them one by one and ask you
8 detailed questions?
9 A. Let me tell you that I might say things that the
10 client would say the reverse.
11 398 Q. That may well be and if that is the case we will
12 have to look at what the client says and what you
13 say and see which one...(INTERJECTION)
14 A. I know that there is two different memories from one
15 particular client about something else.
16 399 Q. Absolutely.
17 A. Some clients believe that they gave me money before
18 I had set up in business and they didn't.
19 400 Q. I see, yes. Also there are a number of other names
20 if I could just mention them to you now and if you
21 might jot them down and indicate to us whether these
22 people were or were not your clients and what other
23 information you have about them.
24 A. Yes.
25 401 Q. I will just give you the names now. Anthony and
26 Brian Rhatigan, John Byrne, Mrs. D. Leydon who I
27 believe was your secretary at some stage?
28 A. No.
29 402 Q. Is that incorrect?
92
1 A. No, that is incorrect. She is a widow woman from a
2 Mr. Leydon that lives...(INTERJECTION)
3 403 Q. Is she related to the Michael Leydon
4 that...(INTERJECTION)
5 A. She is his wife.
6 404 Q. I see.
7 A. Sorry, Anthony and Brian Rhatigan you gave me
8 somebody else?
9 405 Q. John Byrne.
10 A. Yes .
11 406 Q. Well, Mrs. D. Laydon anyway, you can just say what
12 you know about her. Brendan Deignan, Michael
13 Moynihan, Niall Moriarty, Harold Lindsey, Chris
14 Gooson, Joseph Sealy who was your colleague?
15 A. He was my colleague.
16 407 Q. Frank Glennon, Douglas Armstrong and then two
17 company names, if you could explain (A) whether they
18 were your clients and (B) if so who the beneficial
19 owners of company was, Diagem International Ltd.,
20 and Warehousing and Distribution Ltd. Also you
21 mentioned Connor Stakelum, a cousin of yours, so if
22 you would put him on the list as well. Would you
23 mind then and this would also expedite matters, if
24 you could also list for us separately all the
25 companies of which you were a director? If you can
26 do your best with that?
27 A. I have lists of former and current but how complete
28 they would be.
29 408 Q. As best you can do?

1 MR. ROWAN: You presumably, Mr.
2 Stakelum, will have, or
3 companies of which you were a director will have
4 made returns to the registry of companies and at
5 lest for part of time you would have been expected
6 to have indicated what other directorships you had?
7 A. I have a couple of those lists but I am not sure
8 what goes back.
9 MS. MACKEY: Whatever you got back Mr.
10 Stakelum, if you wouldn't
11 mind. Would it be good to make another date today?
12 MR. ROWAN: I don't think so. Mr.
13 Stakelum I think what I
14 would like to suggest to you is that we would be
15 obliged if you could get this information to us at
16 your earliest convenience and once we have received
17 that then we will be in contact with you with a view
18 to reinstating this interview because effectively
19 this interview is being adjourned today and it will
20 be reinstated at a time which will have a
21 relationship to whenever you provide us with the
22 information.
23 A. Yes, it wouldn't take long anyway.
24 MS. MACKEY: So is that okay?
25 A. I don't think that will take very long, maybe Monday
26 or Tuesday I would have that information back to
27 you.
28 MR. ROWAN: That would be fine, thank
29 you very much. This
94
1 interview is being adjourned now. Thank you for
2 coming in Mr. Stakelum.
3 A. Thank you.
5 THE INTERVIEW WAS THEN ADJOURNED
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
95
SoU.cJ^xjo
3 o\
r V H
An?bacher Limited
AMmhroidfHtairAntbaehtri F^np
Please reply to:
42 Fltzwilliao square, P.O. Bern 887. Omtd Ccynan. Bricbh Wot Indk*
Dublin 2. Phnnr. (809) 949-465V4
Telex: CP 4305
Tel: 765144/763065 Fu: (809) 949.7946
Fta: 612035 (809)949.5267
15th January, 1990.

M. Lanigan O'Keaffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
Guinness * Mahon limited,
17 Collage Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Martin,
Could you please arrange to let ne have a Sterling Draft in the sun of
Sbg.eS,000 payable to Denis Jackson and debit Ansbacher Account
Nb. 13154602.
I would like to collect this ctaft on Wednesday naming please if
possible.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Travnor.
/WW
,1 --.— '.«•••-• 1 . ... .. •. ••
Aoabtcher T -unit
n MDimr If Hw JMVJ 4IMDW i
Pleasereply to: P.O. Bos 8S7, Onadj fciiLfc 1

42 FUzwOIiam Square, BODH wWm 1
<a0»94»4633/4
Dublin 2. TUk CP <303
Tel: 765144/763065 Fuc (109) 949-7946
Fax: 612035 CHfimsm
16th Matf, 1990.

M. David Humphries, Bsq.,
Guinness ft Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2. b
9
Dear David,
Could you please arrange for ae to collect Travellers Cheques
to the value of Stg.£1,000 (10 x Stg.eiOO) on Friday noraing.
They are for P.J. Clonan and he will be calling in next week
when I shall get him to sign and return the relevant
documentation to you immediately thereafter.
The debit should be to Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602.
If there is any problem, please ley me know.
1
r O
Yours sincerely,
JDT/AJW
* <*"*f PLC
Please reply to: P a * ° x m ' C m n d <**»». Mbb

42 FitzwfllUm Square. tUo^Sm
Dublin 1 Fax: (109) 949-7944
Tel: 765144/763065 "mm*
Fax- 612035
5th Pebruary, 1991.
Garrett Logan, Eaq., .
Irish Intercontinental Ban* Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange to let ne have for collection a
Sterling Draft for Stg.£6,500 payable to Mrs. D. Leydon and
debit Ansbacher Limited Account No.02/01087/81 with the cost.
Yours sincerely,
tMt AMSBACH5R LIMITED
DPC/AJW
A <T\
"FAIRMONT"
JS
JACK STAKELUM BALLYRONAN ROAD
CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT
KILPEDDER
TELEPHONE: 281 0646 FAX: 281 0645'
MOBILE: 087 2854660 CO. WICKLOW
i-;
The Inspectors
3 rd Floor
Trident House M. AO*
Blackrock
CO. DUBLIN
6 November, 2000
Dear Sirs,
With reference to your letter of the 18th October, and in particular the third
paragraph, I should point out that I did not refuse as such to provide the information in
question, merely that I should be afforded the opportunity to argue why I should not be
asked to divulge such information. The persons in question dealt with me on an
understanding of confidentiality, and as the Inspectors will surely appreciate, it is difficult
not to honour that confidentiality, particularly when one has been used, over one's
professional life, to honouring the confidentiality of Clients.
However, as you point out forcefully in your letter, you are not prepared to allow
me that opportunity and you have referred to the legal position. In the circumstances, I
attach a list of the names and addresses of the persons in question.
Yours faithfully,
JM *
Stakelum
Encl:
V.A.T. N u m b e r 2854485K
P. J. Clonan, c/o James Gillett & Company, Chartered Accountants, 42 Adelaide Road,
Dublin 2.
Denis Jackson, 21 Grange Road, Foxrock, Dublin 18.
Michael Leyden, c/o The Bungalow, Holme Lane, Messingham, Near Scunthorpe,
South Humberside. England, (deceased)
Ansbacher Limited
A ilmttf cf rtfmiwy AMb&thir MoMitft w»c M<trch0N jtanf
Pleasereply to: P.O. Bextt7,Grand Ccymaa. arid* W« ]
Fhow: (W)MMiS)/4
42 FitzwtDiam Square, Tataec CP 4309
Dublin 2. Fuc (S09) 949-7M6
Tel: 765144/763063 (K9) 94M267
Fax: 612035
3rd April, 1990.

N. David Humphries, Esq.,
Guinness & Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
^ dublin 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange the issue of a draft payable to
Business Enterprises for IR£25,000.00. The Sterling
equivalent should be debited to Ansbacher Limited
Account No.13154602.
I would like to have this draft collected tomorrow morning
please if possible.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Travnor.
jdt/ajw
Appendix XV (121) (1) (h)
AM
Ansbacher Limited
A Mmtortftim Bmwy Art+*k* HoUk%t tie Umhmt BmUng Group
Pleasereplyto: P.O. I k SS7. Goad BAhk WMl

mMMIO/4
42 FitzwiOiain Square, Trine CP4M9
Dublin 1 A s (109) M M M
Tel: 765144/763065 (K9) N M K 7
Fax: 612035
11th December, 1990.

M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Guinness a Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
On the 12th December 1990 a Fixed Deposit in the amount of
£65,120.17 matures. Please issue a draft for XR£4,000.00
in favour of Business Enterprises and roll the balance of
£61,120.17 for a further month.
Yours sincerely
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
\
Appendix XV (121) (1) (i)
Aaibichcr Limited
please reply to . P.O. Bo* 117, Qand Caynm, Cayman bland*. British W«* India
42 FUzwiUiain Square. TehfheaK (109) 949-WSS T«l«: CP 4303
Dublin!
Faniaik <«09) 949-7944 (109) 949-5247
Tel: 763144/763065
Fax: 612035
30th January, 1992.

Garratt Logan, Esq.,
Irish Intarcontinantal Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DPBLIN 2.
Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange to let ae have for collection an Irish
Pounds Draft for XM20,000 payable to Business Enterprises and
debit the Sterling cost to Ansbacher Limited No.1 Account
No
Yours sincerely,
h
For AMSBACHER LIMITED I* li.rttCP
DPC/AJW
tuuuiMiii nuw u i . Linum
P.O. Bos M7. Graai Cayman. Cayman blancfe. British West ladies
Telephone <809) 9494635 Teies; CP 4305
FaaJmJle (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-5267
IhU 676 3144/676 3065
JRbcs ^Jfil
M&JXirehfoiBn-CanMy. 8th August, 1994.

Corporate SwieM,
Iriafa Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Manioc Square
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Diire,
Could you please arnage to let us hivefor collection anlriihPoundi cheque for
ER£216.00 payable to BUSINESS ENTERPRISES LIMITED and debit the
U.SDoDar equivalent to Hamilton Bon Account No.03/39317/81.
Yours sincerely,
DPC/AJW
VV'
5S0I5
S'c
John J. Stakelum
"Fairmont"
Ballyronan Road,
Kilpedder, Co. Wicklow.
8 November 2001.
The High Court Inspectors,

3 rd Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
Re: Your letter and enclosures dated 25 th October 2001.
Dear Inspectors,
I have read your letter of 25 October 2001 and note your preliminary conclusion that I was a client
of Ansbacher. It seems this conclusion is based on the evidence given to the Inspectors on oath by
me and on the documents shown to me during the course of my interviews.
This letter is my reply to your preliminary conclusion
I propose confining my comments to what is written in the proposed Statement, the content of
Exhibits 1 through 8 and the relevant evidence in the transcripts that relate to them.
Of concern, however, is that your conclusion appears to be based also on a general premise. I
quote: "The Inspectors relied on transcript of interviews on 8 November and 6 December 2000 with
Mr. Jack Stakelum on oath". These transcripts, in search of understanding, rambledfrom time to
time and, occasionally, progressed on eitherflawed assumptions or hypothetical assertions.
Understanding emerged in due coursefrom most of the issues we discussed. However, in the case
of a number of matters, progress could not be made due to weak or no recall on my part and you did
not revert to them.
In these circumstances one is forced to wonder what, precisely, is "the evidence relied upon by the
Inspectors" for the purpose of their conclusions.
Accordingly, my reply will rely also on these two key assumptions:
• The evidence in the transcripts that underpins the Inspectors' conclusions is solely that
which relates to the three issues discussed in the subject Statement plus the content of
Exhibits 1 through 8.
• The underpinning evidence relied on in this regard will be that upon which the Inspectors
and I reached a reasonable understanding.
Unless you accept these key assumptions I believe it would be impossible for me to comply with the
Inspectors' Procedures. Accordingly, acceptance by you of the above key assumptions is deemed
to exist unless I am advised otherwise.
With reliance on theforegoing, I now comment on the three given segments of evidence that
influenced the Inspectors' Preliminary Conclusion re Mr. Jack Stakelum (the proposed
Statement):
1. The 'Suitably Secured' borrowing from GMI in the early 1970s.
This relates to a loan of £40,000 I receivedfrom GMI in the early 1970s. It is marked 'suitably
secured' in GMI records and was discussed at my 6 December 2000 examination under oath.
The loan formed part of a lawful tax mitigation service operated by GMI at that time. It could
be defined as a 'closed scheme' in that money moved solely within the agreed structure of the
service and both the capital funds and income earned on them were at all times under the full
control of the bank. As I endeavoured to explain in my oral examination, it worked like this:
J
The money I borrowedfrom GMI was remitted by GMI into the ownership of an
offshore limited company. The limited company, under the guidance of GMI, could
have invested this money at will but my recollection is that the money was placed on
deposit. I was the major beneficial shareholder of the company but the loan security
requirements of GMI required me to assign both the funds and operating control to
GMI.
3
The loan interest charged to me by GMI was a tax-deductible allowance for me in
Ireland. The earnings made by the offshore company were tax-free additions to its
assets. No distributions to me by the offshore company were permitted and my
recollection is that the service structure precluded mefrom directly enjoying any part
of the company's income or assets.
• In due course the money owed by me to GMI was repaid in substantial partfrom the
proceeds of the voluntary liquidation of the offshore company. I repaid the
remainder, in Dublin,from personal Irish Pound income.
a
The increase in the net assets of the liquidated offshore company was deemed a
capital gain for tax purposes. There were no capital gains taxes in Ireland at that
time so the gain was tax-free.
B
The cost paid by me for this service was the difference between the balance due to
GMI in Dublin and the value of the net assets of the liquidated offshore company.
The gain to mefrom the service was the tax saving less the costs I paid to GMI.
The dialogue on this issue in the 6/12/2000 question and answer process was somewhat tortuous
and assumption ridden but, in the end, it appeared to have been explained adequately as evidenced
by Ms. Mackey's Qs. 125 and 126. My response to those questions was, respectively, "That's right"
and "That's right absolutely".
However, I now find that the inferences and possibilities woven into the dialogue when
understanding of the service was being pursued have, in the interim, matured into facts in the minds
of the Inspectors. Given that the only tangible evidence is a written record that a £40,000
borrowing was 'suitably secured' and what I can recall, I believe it reasonable to ask:
• How do the Inspectors know the £40,000 was loaned to a Cayman company? I cannot
recall either the offshore location or the name of the company.
» What data informs the Inspectors that this unnamed Company placed £40,000 on deposit
with GMCT? I acknowledge the probability but in truth I do not know.
• Why do you say that I said, "GMCT might have re-deposited the money with GMI"
when I said no such words? In answer 98 of the 6/12/2000 interview in an attempt to
convince Ms. Mackey that I did not know where the money was lodged I said, "...that it
could have been, for instance, a Cayman Company that lodged the money in Dublin". It
could also have been an Isle of Man company that lodged the money in London.
Possibilities should not be rationalised into facts.
However, I agree that I availed of this tax mitigating service, that it was a classic example of a
'suitably secured' transaction in GMI and that the £40,000 I borrowed from GMI was deposited
offshore in the name of a company in which I was the deemed beneficial shareholder. I do not
know the address of the offshore location but in all probability it was in the Cayman. The
offshore assets were at all times in the 100% control of GMI and this was in accord with the
security requirements for the loan.
In the summary of my conclusions in section 4 of this letter I suggest a fairer analysis of this
issue.
2. The service I gaye to persons who wished to hold funds offshore.
This service was advised to you in my 22/9/2000 Statement and described in detail in oral
evidence and in my letter of21/2/2001.
Much has been said and written about this service but, in due course, I believe this
understanding emerged:
a
The funds were held offshore as a decision of the owners of them.
• I had no beneficial interest in the funds.
• I had but minimal involvement in the transfer offshore of the funds I
monitored.
• I never knowingly either personally, through a corporate body or a trust had
any dealings with GMCT or the other institutions that comprise the
'Company' as defined in your letter of 30/8/2000.
• To meet the needs of the essentially clerical facility I was prepared to give to
my clients, I sought and gotfrom GMI (initially via Mr. Traynor) an offshore
banking service. I did not know nor do I still know beyond doubt, the
offshore address at which the money was located. My belief was that the
funds were originally transferred to a GMI account in London for sterling and
to a GMI account in New York in the case of US dollars and nothing has
emergedfrom this entire process to change that view.
1
I have acknowledged the possibility that these funds could have been
deposited in or channelled through Ansbacher. That acknowledgment
merely recognised that, under oath, I could neither confirm nor deny that the
3
funds had -ever touched either GMCT or Ansbacher. The location decision
was made by GMI when implementing the original instructions
communicated directly to the bank by my clients. From the beginning until
the end. this banking service was provided through personnel based in GMI
Dublin. I was never aware of or sought information on the internal operating
procedures of GMI. The deposit account - whether domestic or offshore - is
among the least complex of the services on offer from banks.
11
In my oral examination I was questioned every which way concerning this
service. Hypothetical questions and questions concerning possibilities and
probabilities were put. At the end, however, Mr. Rowan decided to
summarise the whole issue. This occurs in 6/12/2000 questions 279 through
371. The service is adequately described within those questions.
Noteworthy is the number of attempts made to infer additional characteristics
into the service. However, I rebutted them and I believed Mr. Rowan
accepted my answers.
Given that all of the immediatelyforegoing is a matter of written record, is it not at least unfair to
record in a statement to the High Court in relation to the subject deposit service these sentences?
* "Mr. Stakelum arranged with Mr. Traynor that these funds were
transferred to GMCT and placed on deposit;
• Thereafter he accepted Irish Pound lodgements for, and
provided withdrawals from, the GMCT offshore account.
» Mr. Stakelum described this GMCT account as a hotchpotch account
containing funds belonging to a number of his clients".
The misleading word in each sentence is GMCT. Its use is not based on fact or tangible evidence
and the GMCT attribution, as put by the Inspectors, is demonstrably untrue. The only logical
rationale for its use seems to be 'if it could have happened we will decide it did happen'.
If such an unfair tenet can underpin the Inspectors' conclusions I am at a total loss as to how one
could defend against abuse of my interests, good name and reputation.
I again formally deny that I transferred funds to GMCT or arranged transactions of any kind with
GMCT or that I described 'this GMCT account' in any way whatsoever.
Conclusion.
There exists no case for including paragraph three in the proposed Statement. Even in its existing
misleading and unfair format the purpose of the paragraph is to give a context to paragraph four.
However, the issues in paragraph four do not follow in any wayfrom the content of paragraph three.
3. Mr. Traynor's letter of 1 August 1990 and Exhibits 2 through 8.
In this section I will endeavour to explain the probable background and purpose for what is written
in each Exhibit. To do this I will use my knowledge of bank operating practices and the corollaries
that will emerge either logically or reasonablyfrom the data I will give. I will not be able to prove
anything. My objective is to demonstrate a more probable conclusion than that argued by the
Inspectors.
Before discussing the several Exhibits may I turnfirstly to thefinal paragraph (paragraph four) on
page one of the Inspectors' Preliminary Conclusion. The account number recorded in it reads
'13154977'. I believe it should read 13154973 and I am going to assume this is so.
3.1 Exhibit 2 - letter dated 1 August 1990.
Exhibit 2 is concerned with Accounts No. 13154973 and 13154602.
As mentioned during my interview I do not recall the transaction but, as a reasonable

operating assumption, I accept that I asked for and got the $6,000 in travellers' cheques.
Neither can I recall paying the cost of the service to Mr. Traynor but my normal practice
would be to send to him the Irish Pound equivalent of the total cost as soon as I knew the
amount of it. In this instance I believe the total cost was at least $6,060 but more than
likely $6,090. The typical handling charge for travellers cheques issued by banks is 1% to
1.5% of the nominal value issued.
Because (a) the subject travellers cheques were ostensibly issued to me, (b) Mr. Traynor
wrote a letter dated 1/8/1990 and (c) the content of a bank statement (Exhibit 3) the
Inspectors conclude that "Mr. Stakelum enjoyed the use of the funds that were
nominally deposited abroad but held in Ireland through an Ansbacher account in
GMI, by means of a service provided by Ansbacher and Mr. Traynor which enabled
him to withdraw funds in Ireland". My truthful evidence given on oath has been ignored.
As I had no such account and enjoyed no such service I am challenged to find the true
meaning of the simple but cumbersome instructions given by Mr.Traynor in his 1/8/1990
letter. In other words, with no oath, no compulsion and no discovery powers I am expected
to demonstrate greater diligence than the Inspectors!
Failure to do so could result in damage to my interests, good name and reputation. It is an

interesting concept of justice. I will do my part. Perhaps the Inspectors will use their good
offices to add value to what I write.
As earlier mentioned my tools are logic, an Accountant's understanding of the operating

practices in banks and, compellingly, the knowledge that the Inspectors' conclusions are
wrong.
In Exhibit 2 Mr. Traynor's instructions are:
Debit Account No. 13154973 - apparently an interest-bearing US $ call account - with

either all or part of the cost. If the balance in the account, plus interest, was not
adequate to meet the charge the remainder of the cost was to be charged to Account No.
13154602 - a Sterling account.
In the event, the US dollar call account (No. 13145973) had a balance that paid $6,048.30 of
the cost and, I must presume, any remainder was charged to Account No. 13154602.
The Inspectors' conclude that the letter indicates prima facie that I had a US dollar call
account and, because of Exhibit 3, the account was in Ansbacher. Thankfully, you do not
5
attribute to me ownership of Account No. 13154602 or the other sundry accounts mentioned
in Exhibits 4. 5, 6 and 3.
In my opinion an expert or a more diligent investigation of the entire matter would suggest
the direct opposite. Moreover, persons with even a cursory knowledge of the operation of
offshore currency accounts would tell you that the stuff of them is somewhat greater than
$6,000 - the cost of a family holiday!
As I will explain later, in obtaining the travellers cheques for me, Mr. Traynor was giving
me a special service and doing me a great favour. Is it credible that for my part I would put
him to the trouble of debiting two accounts - each with a different currency - in order to
temporarilyfond the transaction?
Let me now suggest the more logical and operationally normal explanation.
Mr. Traynor was no longer an Executive in GMI but, apparently, operated a fairly active
Ansbacher business through GMIfrom his office in 42, Fitzwilliam Square, Dublin.
Foreign Banks (Ansbacher was a foreign bank in Ireland) service the business they have in
other countries by maintaining accounts in them. In the case of such accounts in Ireland the
balances usually would be in Irish Pounds but accounts in US dollars, Sterling or any other
currency may exist. It appears Ansbacher had accounts in several currencies in GMI
Dublin and Mr. Traynor had authority to make withdrawalsfrom them.
These accounts could be interest bearing and, I suggest, funded from time to timefrom the
Cayman by Ansbacher. In operation these currency 'hold' accounts were used like current
or 'cheque book' accounts and the balances in them would be kept at the level necessary to
meet expected transaction demands arising in Dublin.
Typically, some of these accounts would be active while others would have very few
transactions. The point I want to arrive at is that Mr. Traynor would be familiar with these
operating accounts and aware of the amounts in them.
I argue that two of these accounts were US dollar Call Account No. 13154973 and Sterling
Call Account No. 13154602. Clearly,from his letter, Mr. Traynor was aware that Account
No. 13154973 did not have adequate funds to bear the full cost of $6,000 worth of travellers
cheques and that the account would have a nil balance when part of the cost was charged to
it. Can GMI not confirm for us that these were sundry 'hold' accounts and that the
transactions in them were typical of such bank accounts?
Unhelpfully from my perspective Exhibit 3 has but two pages. Thefirst page shows a
balance brought forward of $6011.50. Interest amounting to $36.80 has been added to this
and the resulting balance of $6,048.30 is debited to part fund the cost of $6,000 worth of
travellers cheques issued on the 1/8/1990. The second page is dated 5/10/1990 and this
shows a nil balance also. The page that would have been the most instructive was the one
from which the $6,011.50 was brought forward but this is not being revealed to me.
If the page from which the $6,011.50 was brought forward could be examined I would
expect it to show debits and, perhaps, credits that relate to sundry items that arise within
banks. As matters of responsibility and equity this page should be located and examined.
6
Lst me acknowledge here that both on my own behalf and on behalf of clients, I telephoned
Mr. Traynor and others within GMI to arrange personal services such as travel facilities and
currency transfers. In turn, services ;o which I had ready access were given on the same
basis to Mr. Traynor and to others.
The common characteristic of such services was that the relevant costs were paid in Dublin
in the Irish Pound equivalent of them and one did not have to queue at a bank branch to get
the service. The beneficiaries of such services quickly settle their liabilities when the
precise cost is known. In the interim the amount due is a debit to some sundries or 'hold'
account.
The Inspectors might be aware that the valued clients of banks are rarely seen in bank hall
queues. Requirements are requested by telephone, the service is delivered and the cost is
charged to a holding account pending receipt of the cost involved. This is the norm in all
banks not just in GMI. Moreover, it is not necessary to have a personal or any account in a
bank to get this service. A trusting relationship with anyone who has a managerial rank
works splendidly.
Comcihision: The Inspectors judgment in relation to Exhibit 2 is much too facile. The
research done on it seems less than comprehensive. The explanation I offer is conjecture
also but it is both credible and characteristic of the operational norm within banks. As a
minimum, an expert banking opinion should be brought to bear on the data that underpins
this Inspectors' conclusion. I suggest also that the statement page that precedes the one
dated 20/3/1990 (Exhibit 3) should have been examined before any conclusion was reached
and if this page was examined it should, in equity, be shown to me.
3.2 Exhibit 4 - letter of 15 October 1992.
I do not recall receiving the cheque mentioned in this letter but I accept that it was sent to
me. I have no knowledge of Hamilton Ross Account No. 02/01354/81.
It was a sterling accountfrom which Ms. Joan Williams had authority to make drawings.
Prima facie it was an account that contained money owned by Mr. Traynor.
My opinion concerning why I was the beneficiary of the payment is that Mr. Traynor owed
me that amount. As mentioned above Ifrequently provided services to Mr. Traynor. One
of these was the supply of flowers. - --->-• -
v- .... •• Typically, I would carry the cost of a service like this until a
bill of circa £500 had accumulated.
3.3 Exhibit 5 - letter dated 9 January 1990.
This issue wasfirst referred to me in question 63 of the 6/12/2000 interview. I could not
recall the transaction at that time but I have done some research on it in the meantime. I can
now remember it fairly well. It is another example of effortless access to a standard service.
I did all of this. I cannot recall how the cost was
settled but either I paid for it straight away and was reimbursed later by or I told
the cost and he sent to me a cheque for the Irish Pound equivalent of it.
In the interim the £6,500 due to Mr. Traynor rested in sundry 'hold' account No. 13154602.
You will recall that this account was referred to also in Exhibit 2 above.
i
I say again that the attributions the Inspectors are attaching to th^ correspondence between
Mr. Traynor and GMI are wrong. I do not have certain answers but I have at least one
advantage: I know with certainty that the said account(s) did not have in them money owned
by me or by my clients. Logic and experience suggest compellingly that the letters related
solely to internal procedural matters between Mr. Traynor and GMI and the accounts were
'hold' accounts.
3.4 Exhibit 6 - Mennoraada.ni dated 7 August 1980.
The content of this memorandum supports fully the service and procedural practices I have
discussed at length in paragraphs 3.2 and 3.3. Credibility gets stretched beyond endurance
if it could be inferred from the memorandum that I had a sterling account in GMCT sub
company account and an Irish Pound account entitled Amiens S/L.
In relation to this memorandum, the Inspectors should note also that it arose at a time when
Mr. Traynor was the senior executive in GMI. In that capacity he would have discretion to
use different sundry 'hold' accounts.
3.5 Exhibit 7.
Exhibit 7 was discussed in section 1 hereof.
3.6 Exhibit 8 - letter dated 6 September 1990.
I have no recollection of this transaction. I am certain that account number 13154010 was
not mine. I would be certain also that it was not a clients' account because of the relatively
small balance and the low value of the withdrawal.
Summary of my eondasioas.
4.1.1 The ways in which the Inspectors have interpreted or rationalised the evidence given
by me on oath is wrong and this assertion is sustained by the content of this letter.
4.1.2 The use of the word 'GMCT' in the third and fourth sentences in paragraph two of
the proposed Statement is based entirely on conjecture and this has not been made
clear. The paragraph could be made acceptable if the said sentences were re-written
to read: "The funds were loaned to an offshore company, the name of which has not
been established but in which Mr. Stakelum was beneficially interested, which placed
them on deposit. Mr. Stakelum said he did not know where this deposit was located
but in all probability it was in GMCT and if GMI so decided the funds could have
been re-deposited with GMI in Dublin ".
4.1.3 The way in which the word GMCT has been used in the third paragraph of the
proposed Statement is misleading, unfair, untrue and not grounded on tangible
evidence. In relation to the funds I monitored, there is no evidence that they were
located in GMCT. I conceded the probability because I could not swear they were
not there. Moreover, if they were there the placement took place without my
request, knowledge or authority.
In my view the Inspectors' conclusion is unfair conjecture and is indicative of either

factoid or serious negative bias.
I say further in relation to the entire of paragraph three that there is no basis for
its inclusion in the proposed Statement.
Even in its existing misleading and unfair format its purpose appears to be to give a
context to paragraph four. However, the issues raised in paragraph four do not
follow in any wayfrom the content of paragraph three.
Therefore, as a matter of equity and responsibility all of paragraph three should be

removedfrom the proposed Statement.
4.1.4 Exhibits 2 through 8 exist and demand explanation. The Inspectors have
rationalised a conclusionfrom part of Exhibit 2 and all of Exhibit 3. I know the
Inspectors' conclusion is wrong but I cannot prove it. I have argued at some length a
more logical and a more sustainable explanation. As a matter of responsibility you
should probe this issue more assiduously before reaffirming your current conclusion.
To do otherwise would be a travesty and would call into question the credibility of
the work of the Inspectors.
Finally, I thank you for the opportunity you gave me to write this letter. I apologise for its length
but when one's interests, good name and reputation are at stake it is necessary to be as exhaustive as
one can be.
With every good wish,
/-v Yours sincerely,
John J, Stakelum.
Appendix XV (122) Mr Sam Stephenson
Sam stephenson.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Sam Stephenson dated 3 May 2000.
b) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo and schedule of 18 May 1976.
c) Letter of 14 October 1976 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr Sam Stephenson.
d) Letter of 23 September 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr Sam

Stephenson.
e) Letter and statements of 18 October 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr

Christopher Dodd.
f) Letter of 4 January 1978 - Mr Sam Stephenson to JD Traynor.
g) Letter of 31 January 1978 - JD Traynor to Mr Sam Stephenson.
h) Letter of 29 June 1978 - Mr Sam Stephenson to JD Traynor.
i) Letter of 10 October 1978 - Mr Sam Stephenson to Arthur Cox &

Company Solicitors.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Sam Stephenson,
a) Letter of 3 January 2002 - Michael Peart to the Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. SAM STEPHENSON
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY, 3RD MAY 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. SAM STEPHENSON
Represented by: MR. PATRICK SWEETMAN
MATHESON ORMSBY PRENTICE
30 HERBERT STREET
DUBLIN 2
1 THE HEARING COMMENCED ON WEDNESDAY, 3RD MAY 2000, AS
2 FOLLOWS:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Stephenson, we start
5 our interview and I should
6 explain to you at the outset that this is an
7 interview, it is not a tribunal or a court, that if
8 you have any difficulty with any of the questions
9 that we ask you, please feel free to ask us to stop
10 and to consult your solicitor if you wish to do so
11 and, similarly, if Mr. Sweetman wishes us to stop at
12 any time to advise you on any question, Mr. Sweetman
13 is perfectly free so to tell us.
14
15 Mr. Stephenson, the interview is held under oath and
16 I would ask our solicitor, Miss Cummins, to
17 administer the oath to you.
18
19 MR. SAM STEPHENSON, HAVING BEEN SWORN, GAVE
20 EVIDENCE, AS FOLLOWS:
21
22 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Stephenson, we
23 sent you a long letter on
24 1st March. Do you have a copy of that (Exhibit 1)?
25 A. I have indeed, yes.
26 2 Q. Do you see at appendix C on page 10 we asked you to
27 provide us with a detailed statement with all the
28 dealings which you may have had with the company,
29 with Ansbacher?
3
1 A. Yes.
2 3 Q. You will see, I think, at page 11 we asked you
3 whether if you caused to be executed a Deed of Trust
4 or other instrument in the Cayman Islands.
6 You did not provide us with that statement. Why was
7 that, Mr. Stephenson?
8 A. Because I have no information or no documents myself
9 in relation to my dealings with Guinness & Mahon
10 (Cayman) as I understood they were, but I have no
11 knowledge of Ansbacher whatsoever. I never heard of
12 the name until it came up many years later in
13 connection with a deposit in an Ansbacher Bank in
14 Dublin. I was only dealing with Guinness & Mahon
15 and I was aware that they had a branch or an office
16 in the Cayman Islands.
17
18 I have asked Guinness & Mahon frequently and finally
19 I put it in writing and they assured me they would
20 give me copies of whatever documents they had but so
21 far they have failed to do so.
22 4 Q. Did you cause a Deed of Trust to be drawn up?
23 A. I do not know is the answer. The question of trust
24 was mentioned but I really should explain the
25 relationship I had with Mr. Traynor.
26 5 Q. You can do that but in a moment. I just want to
27 understand, are you telling us, Mr. Stephenson, that
28 you think you had no Deed of Trust?
29 A. I don't know what...(INTERJECTION).
4
1 6 Q. Mr. Stephenson, I am going to refer you now to
2 correspondence shortly in which there is extensive
3 references to Deeds of Trust in the Cayman Islands.
4 Do you remember that correspondence?
5 A. I don't remember it, no.
6 7 Q. I will be referring you to that correspondence?
7 A. Good, yes, fine.
8 8 Q. As of now then, is it your position that you cannot
9 recollect having executed a Deed of Trust for the
10 Cayman Islands?
11 A. I have no knowledge....(INTERJECTION).
12 9 Q. Mr. Stephenson listen to me. Do not spar with me
13 now. I want to know what is your recollection now
14 about a Deed of Trust?
15 A. It is very difficult for me to recollect the details
16 of my dealings.
17 10 Q. I am not asking you about the details?
18 A. If you have a document with my signature on it.
19 11 Q. No, Mr. Stephenson, I am asking you for your
20 recollection. You are not entitled to ask me have
21 we documents. You have to give evidence. Now, I am
22 asking you again?
23 A. Okay. Would you put the question again and I will
24 try and answer it.
25 12 Q. What is your recollection of you having executed a
26 Deed of Trust?
27 A. I have no recollection of having executed a Deed of
28 Trust.
29 13 Q. What is your recollection that you were entitled to

1 a beneficial interest under a Deed of Trust?
2 A. I am trying to answer the question. Having no
3 recollection of the Deed of Trust, which I presume
4 related to deposits which I understood we had in the
5 Cayman Islands.
6 14 Q. Do not presume anything, I am asking you about your
7 recollection?
8 A. I must say I have no recollection.
9 15 Q. Very well. Would you get the documents out please,
10 tab 5.
11 MISS CUMMINS: All the documents?
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, please.
13 A. (Documents handed to the witness).
14 16 Q. The first document I am handing you, Mr. Stephenson,
15 is an internal memo of 18th May 1976 (Exhibit 2)?
16 A. Yes.
17 17 Q. It is from Mr. Traynor to various colleagues of his
18 in the bank?
19 A. Yes.
20 18 Q. It sets out the present borrowings of Sam on his
21 personal account, Arthur, that is your partner, on
22 his personal account, Stephenson Gibney & Associates
23 Partnership Account, Stephenson Gibney Joint
24 Account, Ailesbury Securities beneficially owned by
25 Sam and Arthur and Sam Stephenson Farm Account:
26 "In addition, Guinness & Mahon London

has guaranteed £65,000 to F.N.C.B.",
27 which is the bank in Dublin, "on their
behalf and we, of course, have
28 counter-guaranteed London.
29 Sam Stephenson has guaranteed the

Account of Avoca."
6
1 The total involvement is set out as a total of
2 nearly £600,000:
3 "Against this there would be Trust

Funds totalling £332,376 making a
4 shortfall...
6 Do you know what those trust funds were?
7 A. (Pause) Trust funds totalling £332,376. Is there
8 any summary about the trust funds?
9 19 Q. No, do you know what they are, Mr. Stephenson?
10 A. I would understand that they were deposits that
11 I had in Guinness & Mahon Cayman.
12 20 Q. Guinness Mahon Cayman?
13 A. Yes.
14 21 Q. I see. So you had deposits in Guinness Mahon
15 Cayman?
16 A. Yes.
17 22 Q. Amounting to what?
18 A. Pardon?
19 23 Q. Amounting to 3?
20 A. That is a big surprise to me that it is that amount.
21 24 Q. Leaving aside the amount, perhaps there is an
22 explanation. Do you know had your partner Mr.
23 Gibney deposits in Cayman?
24 A. Yes I understood he had, the same as I had.
25 25 Q. So this may be the total of the two?
26 A. It could be, yes.
27 26 Q. Do you know how much deposits you had there?
28 A. I was under the impression it was about £150,000.
29 27 Q. You had?
7
1 A. Yes.
2 28 Q. So in 1976 you had deposits in the Cayman Islands in
3 the Cayman Bank of £150,000?
4 A. No.
5 29 Q. Why not?
6 A. I terminated my relationship with Guinness &
7 Mahon....(INTERJECTION).
8 30 Q. We need not go into that now, we will come to that
9 later. I want to know how much you put on deposit
11 A. I did not put any on deposit.
12 31 Q. How much was there?
13 A. I don't know. I was under the impression and I was
14 told, there are various sums that I was told in my
15 mind amounted to round about £150,000.
17 A. It was certainly in the early 1970s.
18 33 Q. Who told you that?
19 A. Mr. Traynor.
20 34 Q. You knew you had money on deposit in the Cayman
21 Islands, you knew this was a subsidiary of Guinness
22 & Mahon?
23 A. Yes.
24 35 Q. And you did not know anything about a trust?
25 A. A trust had been mentioned to me.
26 36 Q. Very well, it was mentioned?
27 A. Yes.
28 37 Q. What had been mentioned to you?
29 A. That a trust would be probably a good idea, that it
8
1 should be held in a trust or something.
2 38 Q. When was that said to you?
3 A. At the very early stages in my dealings with Des
4 Traynor in relation to this.
5 39 Q. Why have you not mentioned that before? In the last
6 10 minutes that we have been talking, why did you
7 not tell me about it?
8 A. Sorry?
9 40 Q. Why did you not tell me that it had been mentioned
10 to you at the outset in your discussions with Mr.
11 Traynor that it would be a good idea to establish a
12 trust?
13 A. Whether it was established or not I have no
14 knowledge.
15 41 Q. What do you think now looking at the memo whether or
16 not there was a trust established?
17 A. That memo is dated 1976 and I ceased to have any
18 working relationship with Guinness & Mahon in the
19 mid 1970s. I had a serious falling out with Mr.
20 Traynor over the fact, and I see here he has listed
21 at that stage title deeds as security which they
22 were not.
23 42 Q. Don't wander away, Mr. Stephenson. I am asking you
24 about the Trust?
25 A. I don't know any more about the Trust. A Trust was
26 mentioned but I never saw any document in connection
27 with the Trust.
28 43 Q. Are you saying that Mr. Traynor said it was a good
29 idea?
9
1 A. Yes, people were always talking about trusts.
2 44 Q. No, no, no, I am not talking about people, I am
3 talking about Mr. Traynor?
4 A. I cannot be...(INTERJECTION).
5 45 Q. You said it, did you not?
6 A. Yes, but I can't remember precisely what Des Traynor
7 would have said but the idea of a Trust was
8 certainly in the air. Whether it was done or not
9 I really can't say.
10 46 Q. Yes. Whether or not you had a Trust, or whether you
11 knew you had a Trust, would you just turn to a
12 letter that is in that file there of 14th October
13 1976, page 46 (Exhibit 3).
14
15 This refers to a letter and this is a letter to you.
16 Do you have that Mr. Stephenson, 14th October?
17 A. Yes .
18 47 Q.
"We refer to the facility letter dated
19 28th September 1976 and addressed to
you by us."
20
21 If I may pause here. You were in arrears now, I
22 think, in considerable arrears with them and you
23 were making arrangements about repayment; is that
24 right?
25 A. Yes .
26 48 Q.
"We have been informed by Guinness &
27 Mahon Cayman Trust Limited that they
will carry out your instructions in the
28 following respects:
29 1. Existing hypothecation agreements

relating to Call Deposits made with
10
1 them will be cancelled."
3 If I may stop there. It looks from this as if you
4 have been in touch with Cayman Islands Trust
5 Limited?
6 A. Never.
7 49 Q. How did existing hypothecation agreements relating
8 to your deposits with the Guinness Mahon Cayman
9 Trust Limited come into existence?
10 A. I don't know is the answer but I presume, sorry not
11 presume, any agreements with the Cayman Trust would
12 have been done by Mr. Traynor on my behalf.
13 50 Q. On your behalf?
14 A. Yes.
15 51 Q. You must have known that he had used the deposits
16 then as form of security for loans, did you?
17 A. Yes I would have assumed -- I was never very clear.
18 52 Q. I am not talking about whether you are clear. It is
19 a long time ago, Mr. Stephenson?
20 A. Yes, it is 30 years ago.
21 53 Q. Yes. I would just like you to tell us now exactly
22 what you remember?
23 A. Mr. Traynor -- I will have to give you a little
24 preamble by way of explanation I think to try and
25 understand my position and I assure you I am trying
26 to be as factual and as informative as possible.
27
28 Mr. Traynor was, first of all, our accountant and,
29 secondly, we became partners in a number of property
11
1 transactions. We made profits on some, considerable
2 profits on others, and subsequently I understand we
3 lost it all in a number of ventures round about 1973
4 with the decline in the property market.
6 I have no correspondence of this nature in my
7 possession. So, whatever arrangements were made in
8 relation to the deposits in the Cayman Islands
9 I understood it was perfectly legal and legitimate
10 at the time that money which we made -- the
11 principal money that I remember we made was on the
12 Fitzwilliam Lawn Tennis transaction and I understood
13 the figure that I made there together with the other
14 6 partners was about £100,000.
15
16 There were a number of other transactions which
17 produced profits of much smaller amounts than that,
18 £20,000 or £30,000 and certainly my impression was
19 I had round about £150,000 on deposit with Guinness
20 Mahon all of which was under the control of Mr.
21 Traynor.
22
23 However, our relationship was one of very close
24 partnership and friendship and he was a great asset
25 and of great benefit to us both as an accountant and
26 as an advisor.
27
28 Some of these transactions went very well and then
29 they went sour, as I said, in the property crash of
12
1 1974/73 and my relationship with Mr. Traynor soured
2 very considerably when he told me one evening in my
3 home, I actually agreed to sell a farm I had had in
4 Carlow, Ballynoe to cover our losses, but when he
5 actually told me in my home that my house would have
6 to go, I was really quite stunned.
8 He had advised me some years earlier to leave the
9 deeds of The Mews, which was my residence in Dublin,
10 with Guinness & Mahon, it had no borrowings at all,
11 for security, because at that time it looked like
12 I might be sued for very substantial sums of money
13 arising out of professional indemnity, possibly
14 claims.
15
16 However, when he told me that that property now was
17 securing borrowings that we had made with Guinness &
18 Mahon, I was pretty well upset and I just terminated
19 at that stage and I threatened to sue him. I said,
20 "You can't take my home. You know that that was
21 never intended to be a security for any of these
22 loans, I am losing enough as it is, and I will
23 certainly fight you tooth and nail if you try to use
24 those deeds" and eventually he either relented or
25 recognised the situation but we parted on that
26 basis.
27
28 I got back the title deeds of The Mews and he took
29 everything else that I had on deposit which I
13
1 understood went some way towards clearing our debts
2 which in the main accumulated, I understood, on the
3 borrowings which we had with Guinness & Mahon and
4 with Citibank.
6 So in relation to my knowledge of what happened, and
7 I am surprised at the dates of these letters
8 actually because I know it did take some time, for
9 example, for Ballynoe to be disposed of and sold,
10 but certainly by the mid 1970s I was no longer
11 dealing with Guinness & Mahon except very
12 reluctantly.
13
14 I was actually also asked to sign, that is prior to
15 the rather sad meeting in my house actually when he
16 told me my house would have to go, I had been
17 signing with Mr. Gibney. Mr. Traynor would send up
18 to our office one of the assistants of the bank to
19 sign guarantees for loans which had already got into
20 difficulty of which Mr. Gibney, myself and Mr.
21 Traynor were equally responsible. We were three
22 equal partners in whatever transactions we would do.
23
24 That may give you some idea of the background of my
25 position with Mr. Traynor.
26 54 Q. This letter of 14th October (Exhibit 3) refers to
27 "existing hypothecation agreements". I take it that
28 you agree then that the funds that you had in the
29 Cayman were used then as security for some of these
14
1 different transactions?
2 A. Yes.
3 55 Q. If we just continue the correspondence that you have
4 there. These are letters -- I do not want to refer
5 you to all of them -- about the situation that had
6 developed and the agreement to repay the sums that
7 were due.
9 Do you see the letter there of 23rd September 1977.
10 It is number 51 at the bottom right-hand corner
11 (Exhibit 4)?
12 A. Yes.
13 56 Q. This is from Mr. O'Dwyer, the loans officer, to
14 you:
15
16 "With reference to correspondence under
17 separate cover, I wish to advise you
18 that the balance on your account with
19 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust as at 30th
20 September 1977 will amount to £24,000
21 (approximately). This sum also
22 includes interest to date."
23
24 As of that time your funds in the Cayman had
25 declined to that figure. Would you agree that that
26 was so from this letter?
27 A. That is certainly what this letter is stating.
28 57 Q. That is what is stated in the letter. Can you
29 explain to me, Mr. Stephenson, how Mr. O'Dwyer in
15
1 the Dublin company was able to tell you what was in
2 your account in Cayman?
3 A. I don't know how he could tell me except I presume
4 he had records of it.
5 58 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of back-to-back
6 loans?
7 A. Yes.
8 59 Q. Am I not correct in saying that there were
9 back-to-back loans that were granted in this case
10 based on the security of the Guinness & Mahon Cayman
11 Trust funds?
12 A. Yes, I understood from Mr. Traynor at the time that
13 the monies deposited in the Cayman, which were quite
14 legal and legitimate, could be used as back-to-back
15 for loans granted in Ireland.
16 60 Q. Yes and that was done?
17 A. I presume it was done. I have no specific knowledge
18 of any particular loan being backed by any
19 particular deposit.
20 61 Q. Yes, but generally that was assumed?
21 A. I would have assumed that Mr. Traynor would have
22 done that when we would indicate to him that we
23 needed the money to buy some property or to dispose
24 of something, he would arrange the finance.
25 62 Q. Yes, well if we move on to in the letter of 18th
26 October 1977 to Mr. Dodd (Exhibit 5). Was he your
27 accountant?
28 A. Yes.
29 63 Q. And it is from Mr. O'Dwyer and he says:
16
1 "I have pleasure in enclosing herewith
statements of Sam's No. 1 and No. 2
2 Loan Accounts from 1st October to date.
Also, I am attaching a schedule showing
3 the backing Cayman funds."
5 They were to use the funds for security for the
6 loans; is that right?
7 A. Well, yes that is certainly what that letter states.
8 64 Q. Now, the letters refer, again if you refer to a
9 letter of 4th January 1978 (Exhibit 6). Do you have
10 that at page 57?
11 A. Yes.
12 65 Q.
"I have received your letters" -- this
13 is from you, I think, is that right, 31
Leeson Close?
14 A. Yes.
15 66 Q.
"I have received letters from
16 G. O'Dwyer calling in the various Loan
Accounts which are outstanding. I
17 suggest that the following proposals
will effectively clear the
18 liabilities."
19
20 Then you refer to the Stephenson Gibney & Associates
21 Loan Balance and:
22 "Please credit the Cayman funds to this

account."
23
24 So you are referring to the Cayman funds there?
25 A. Yes.
26 67 Q. Your funds in Cayman and then you make proposals
27 about the Ailesbury Securities and your own personal
28 loan. You refer to your letter of 31st January in
29 reply to that. Do you have that at page 58 in the
17
1 bottom right-hand corner (Exhiobit 7)?
2 A. May I point out that on that letter of 4th January
3 (Exhibit 6) it is signed by me, or it looks like my
4 signature, Sam, but it certainly would not have been
5 drafted by me. It would have been drafted probably
6 by Mr. Dodd or indeed Mr. Traynor. It is not my
7 phraseology.
8 68 Q. But whether it was, you signed it?
9 A. Yes .
10 69 Q. The next letter is 31st January (Exhibit 7):
11 "Many thanks for your letter of the 4th

January.
12
As you know from previous discussions I
13 do not personally deal with your
Accounts. I would, however, make two
14 points to you:
15 1. Cayman Funds
16 The Cayman funds are hypothecated

against your personal Account and as
17 such... ."
18
19 So, that seems to be clear, does it not, Mr.
20 Stephenson?
21 A. Yes .
22 70 Q. I need not trouble you with the other letters in
23 this correspondence because they are referring to
24 the efforts being made to make the repayments.
25
26 I want to refer you, if we move on there is further
27 correspondence with Mr. Traynor on 29th June at page
28 62 and then solicitors then became involved (Exhibit
29 8) .
2 Mr. Scott wrote to Mr. O'Dwyer and then I want to
3 refer you to your letter of 10th October 1978 at
4 page 64 and this is to Arthur Cox & Company (Exhibit
5 9). Do you have that?
6 A. Sorry, this is number 64.
7 71 Q. Yes, 10th October. This is to Arthur Cox. You are
8 referring to his letter of 28th September. You
9 comment then that he has only some of the facts.
10 You complain that his clients unilaterally amended
11 the original agreement and then you go on to this
12 paragraph:
13 "I note that you intend to issue

proceedings and in my defence I will be
14 obliged to reveal the full terms of the
settlement agreement and this will
15 reflect no credit on your clients."
16
17 Would you tell me what you are referring to there?
18 A. (Pause) This must have been a letter -- Arthur Cox
19 I presume would have been acting for Citibank and
20 this is in connection with that loan I think. I am
21 not sure. Certainly the "this will reflect no
22 credit on your clients" would have been the
23 information that I would have had to disclose at
24 that stage of Mr. Traynor's business relationship
25 with me while he was a director of the Bank.
26 72 Q. It refers to "the full terms of the settlement
27 agreement."
28 A. Yes.
29 73 Q. What are the full terms?
19
1 A. Well, I can't recall the details of the full terms
2 of the agreement except that everything was to be
3 cleared. They could do what they liked with
4 deposits or otherwise they had but I was to keep my
5 home. That was all basically.
7 That was a hand written agreement because I was
8 having a continual battle with Mr. Traynor over
9 several years.
10 74 Q. It was a handwritten agreement?
11 A. Yes.
12 75 Q. Why?
13 A. Because I did not wish anybody else to know.
14 76 Q. Where is that now?
15 A. Gone, destroyed, I don't know where they are. I
16 actually tore up the handwritten agreement many
17 years ago because it reminded me of so many
18 unpleasant unfortunate situations. Mr. Traynor may
19 have a copy of it in his files, I don't know.
20 77 Q. Would you like at the first paragraph after the
21 statement of acceptance of the letter:
22 "It would appear from your letter of

29th august that your clients have told
23 you or some of the facts. Are you
aware that a settlement agreement
24 covering in a total package my
personal, corporate, property and trust
25 accounts was concluded in the Autumn
1976."
26 A. Sorry, yes.
27 78 Q. It is referring to trust accounts?
28 A. Yes.
29 79 Q. Is it not clear that you had trust accounts?
20
1 A. Yes I mean I was told I had trust accounts.
2 80 Q. But you have told me up to now, and we have been
3 talking for over half an hour, that you did not know
4 of any trust accounts?
5 A. I have no evidence of trust accounts.
6 81 Q. I am not interested about evidence?
7 A. I know it is very easy for me to jump back and
8 forth.
9 82 Q. It is not a question of jumping back and forth, it
10 is a question of telling the truth, Mr. Stephenson?
11 A. I am doing my very best to do so, I assure you.
12 83 Q. Is it not clear that you had trust accounts?
13 A. It is clear from this correspondence that they
14 maintained that I have trust accounts and I am
15 accepting it by this correspondence. But my
16 knowledge of those trust accounts or documents in
17 connection with them, I have never had sight of any
18 such document, or indeed in effect that they were in
19 existence. That is the reality of the situation I
20 am afraid.
21 84 Q. When this arrangement with Mr. Traynor was
22 established by you, did you have any anybody
23 advising you other than Mr. Traynor?
24 A. These trust arrangements or.
25 85 Q. Yes?
26 A. No, these would have gone back to -- the first
27 knowledge that I have of a deposit, at least I am
28 nearly certain, would have been the profit made on
29 the Fitzwilliam and that was being placed offshore.
21
1 86 Q. If I may interrupt you, Mr. Stephenson, what I am
2 asking you now is to give me some evidence about
3 what happened when originally the money was
4 transferred offshore to the Cayman Islands. This
5 was as a result of discussions which you had with
6 Mr. Traynor, as I understand it. What I am asking
7 you now is did you have other professional advisor
8 other than Mr. Traynor?
9 A. No.
10 87 Q. You did not have a separate accountant?
11 A. No.
12 88 Q. You did not have had a separate solicitor?
13 A. We would have had a solicitor but he would not have
14 been....(INTERJECTION).
15 89 Q. Who was your personal solicitor at that time?
16 A. It might have been Stephen Mackenzie or it might
17 have been -- but certainly in my discussions with
18 Des Traynor there would have been no solicitor
19 involved.
20 90 Q. Of course not. I am asking you a different
21 question.
22 A. I am sorry.
23 91 Q. Who was your personal solicitor at that time?
24 A. I can't recall at the moment. It could have been
25 Stephen Mackenzie.
26 92 Q. Could it have been Mr. McGonagle?
27 A. No he was not a personal solicitor but he certainly
28 was a solicitor partner in the Fitzwilliam deal.
29 93 Q. I am asking you about your personal solicitor. Who
22
1 do you think it was?
2 A. I would have had no legal advice.
3 94 Q. I am not asking you about that?
4 A. I am trying to remember who it would have been at
5 the time. He certainly would not have been involved
6 in this.
7 95 Q. Who do you think it was?
8 A. I would have to check but it could have been Stephen
9 Mackenzie.
10 96 Q. Stephen Mackenzie.
11 A. He was quite a young solicitor at the time.
12 97 Q. Now, the next question I want to ask you is do you
13 remember going to a solicitor, whoever it may have
14 been, to get his advice about Mr. Traynor's
15 proposals ?
16 A. No, I never went to a solicitor.
17 98 Q. So you were depending entirely then on Mr. Traynor?
18 A. Yes. We were very close friends and I was very
19 grateful for his advice.
20 99 Q. The money that was transferred to the Cayman, how
21 was that effected, how was the transfer effected?
22 A. I have not an idea.
23 100 Q. But what did you do? You must have known what
24 happened. What did you do? Did you transfer any
25 funds ?
26 A. Not at all. Mr. Traynor would have transferred them
27 on my behalf if they were transferred in that sense.
28 I understood the Cayman Islands was a kind of lump
29 of sand in the middle of the Pacific.

1 101 Q. Mr. Stephenson, you ended up at one point with a sum
2 of which you think it was somewhere in the region of
3 £150,000 in a Bank in the Cayman Islands?
4 A. Yes .
5 102 Q. How did it get there?
6 A. Mr. Traynor would have placed it there on my behalf.
7 103 Q. From where would Mr. Traynor have got the funds
8 which he placed on your behalf in the Cayman
9 Islands ?
10 A. From a number of property transactions.
11 104 Q. From business transactions?
12 A. Yes in the property dealing but in the main it would
13 have been in the profit on the fist phase of the
14 Fitzwilliam development.
15 105 Q. So it was as a result of the arrangements that you
16 had reached with him and with others, profits were
17 made on these arrangements, and the profits were
18 transferred to Cayman?
19 A. That is right.
20 106 Q. Your share of the profits were then mounted up and
21 it came to £150,000 approximately at some point?
22 A. Yes .
23 107 Q. And they were on deposit in the Cayman Islands?
24 A. So I understood.
25 108 Q. Was any tax ever paid on the interest on the deposit
27 A. I have no knowledge of paying any tax or that there
28 was any tax liable to be paid. It could not have
29 been paid by me. I presume I would have to sign
24
1 something.
2 109 Q. Yes, so you did not pay tax?
3 A. I certainly had no knowledge of it, no.
4 110 Q. And it was your funds?
5 A. Yes. May I add to that, that I understood when this
6 was discussed in the early stages of our
7 relationship that this was perfectly legal to
8 deposit funds overseas, they would not liable for
9 tax, that they could be used for a back-to-back
10 borrowing if we wished to do so, but that if they
11 were repatriated to the country we would then be
12 liable for tax on them. That is the position as
13 I understood it.
14
15 As explained to me, I think certainly Mr. Traynor
16 and I think the tax advisor at the time was a
17 partner in Stokes Kennedy Crowley who set up this
18 system, I think.
19 111 Q. Mr. Reid, was it?
20 A. Don Reid, yes.
21 112 Q. Did you see Mr. Reid? Did you talk to Mr. Reid?
22 A. I think I recall him being at a meeting in our
23 office.
24 113 Q. In Stephenson & Gibney's offices?
25 A. Yes .
26 114 Q. He came to advise you on this, did he?
27 A. Des brought him into the situation.
28 115 Q. Was Mr. Traynor there to?
29 A. Yes. I certainly would not have met him on his own,
25
1 it would have been with Mr. Traynor. He was the
2 leading tax advisor in Dublin at the time.
3 116 Q. Did he advise you about setting up a trust in the
4 Cayman Islands?
5 A. Yes, this was a system which Mr. Traynor was saying
6 that we were going to do.
7 117 Q. And Mr. Reid was explaining to you?
8 A. Yes.
9 118 Q. The establishing of a trust in the Cayman Islands?
10 A. Well, the business of depositing.
11 119 Q. I want to know what is your recollection?
12 A. My recollection is focused on it being funds which
13 we had made as profits but being deposited in the
14 Cayman Islands. This was perfectly legal. It
15 avoided tax but if it was repatriated to the country
16 it would then incur tax.
17 120 Q. Do you recall him referring to a scheme by which you
18 established a discretionary trust?
19 A. The words "discretionary trust" -- certainly the
20 question of a trust fund or trust was -- all I can
21 say is it was in the air at the discussion. That
22 apparently was what was going to happen.
23 121 Q. Somebody talked about it?
24 A. Yes certainly.
25 122 Q. You would not have talked about it?
26 A. Not at all.
27 123 Q. Or Mr. Gibney would not have talked about it?
28 A. No.
29 124 Q. So either Mr. Traynor or Mr. Reid then talked about
26
1 a trust?
2 A. I am not even sure that Mr. Gibney was at that
3 meeting. He could have been.
4 125 Q. Whether he was there or not was immaterial. Either
5 Mr. Traynor or Mr. Reid talked about a trust?
6 A. Yes I believe so. That certainly would have been
7 when it was mentioned.
8 126 Q. Did Mr. Reid in any way as your accountant, did you
9 pay him fees for the advice that he gave?
10 A. No, he was the one who was advising Mr. Traynor on
11 these procedures really.
12 127 Q. Yes?
13 A. I understood a number of people were receiving this
14 advice in Dublin at the time.
15 128 Q. Who were?
16 A. I do not know specifically but it was a thing. I was
17 not aware of any specific people but this was being
18 talked by a number of people of how to avoid.
19 129 Q. You have described how you used the funds for
20 back-to-back loans. Did you ever use the funds in
21 the account of Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust in
22 Dublin? Did you ever use the accounts here in
23 Dublin?
24 A. The only borrowing that I can recall that I
25 personally made was when I purchased some land
26 adjoining the farm in Carlow. Guinness & Mahon gave
27 me a loan but I deposited the deeds of the farm,
28 which I already had at 50 acres, as security for the
29 purchase. They advanced me 100 per cent of the
27
1 purchase price of this adjoining land farm which was
2 about 90 acres, I think it was about £80,000 or
3 something at the time.
4 130 Q. What I was asking you is a different point, Mr.
5 Stephenson?
6 A. Sorry.
7 131 Q. It was not in relation to loans from Guinness Mahon,
8 it was in relation to the use of an account in the
9 name of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. Were you told
10 that you could draw on that account and you could
11 obtain money from the account and it would be
12 debited to your funds in Cayman?
13 A. Yes that is what I understood is the purpose of the
14 deposit there that you could do that.
15 132 Q. You drew on the deposits from time to time, did you?
16 A. No, only in so far as I have assumed that Guinness &
17 Mahon would have been using those to secure what
18 borrowings they were loaning out to Mr. Traynor and
19 myself and Mr. Gibney and other parties in some of
20 the property deals.
21 133 Q. But apart from loans, we have discussed these
22 already, these back-to-back loans, what I am
23 inquiring about is whether you ever drew money out
24 of the accounts which were held in Dublin in the
25 name of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, drew
26 money for your own personal use which would have in
27 the normal way gone through the system and been
28 deducted from your funds in Cayman. Did you do
29 that?
28
1 A. Well, all of that would have been done by Mr.
2 Traynor. If we were arranging funds to buy a
3 property, I would locate the property or an estate
4 agent might come upon it, we would look at it and
5 agree that it was a purchase, and I would say to
6 Des, "We need £300,000 or £200,000" or whatever it
7 would be, and that would be arranged.
8 134 Q. Did they send you accounts of your money in Cayman?
9 A. Never.
10 135 Q. Did Mr. Traynor ever give you accounts?
11 A. Verbally, yes.
12 136 Q. Verbally?
13 A. Yes .
14 137 Q. Did he tell you how much was there?
15 A. Never in total. The only occasion I remember him
16 giving me a piece of paper with a figure on it was
17 when we were celebrating the result of the
18 Fitzwilliam deal. There was a dinner party and he
19 was informing everybody of what their share of the
20 profit would be, and I think he scribbled it on a
21 piece of paper. I had about £110,000.
22 138 Q. Is it your recollection that at no time did you know
23 how much money you had in the Cayman Islands?
24 A. I was aware of figures in excess of £100,000 and I
25 would have thought they were around about
26 £150,000/160,000, that type of thing, but I never
27 got a statement. I had no documentation.

9 fi
Zo
29 I notice the figures that are mentioned here are
29
1 long after my termination.
2 139 Q. Your relationship with Guinness & Mahon seems to
3 have terminated and there was a threat of legal
4 proceedings ?
5 A. Yes .
6 140 Q. What eventually happened to the funds that you had
7 in the Cayman Islands? Were they taken over by
8 Guinness & Mahon on foot of the securities that they
9 had given?
10 A. I surrendered my rights to everything provided
11 I kept my house and they returned the title deeds to
12 my house.
13 141 Q. Is that what happened?
14 A. Yes .
15 142 Q. When was that, approximately what year was that?
16 A. I can't be precise about what the actual dates were
17 because it took some time to sell the various
18 properties, but certainly my finalisation with Mr.
19 Traynor was in the mid 1970s, some time in 1974/75.
20 143 Q. That may be so but we have correspondence going on
21 into the late 1970s, 1978?
22 A. Yes .
23 144 Q. What I am concerned about is to give me a general
24 idea of when your relationship, the threat of legal
25 proceedings, when everything was finished, when was
26 that finalised?
27 A. It took some years to finalise the transactions and
28 I can see even from this letter and the last letter
29 that they were still arguing about some and I think
30
1 they did not quite clear something with Citibank and
2 I know we had to pay that out of our own practice
3 subsequently.
4 145 Q. Did you have any further dealings with Guinness &
5 Mahon after that?
6 A. No.
7 146 Q. Mr. Stephenson, we will adjourn now for a cup of
8 coffee for about 10 minutes.
9 MR. SWEETMAN: May I make a point, sir.
10 Are there any other papers
11 or documents which you are proposing to produce to
12 Mr. Stephenson because he has not had an opportunity
13 to see any of this and he has been trying to get it
14 from Guinness & Mahon up until now and has not had
15 any success, his own papers having been destroyed
16 I think when he was moving from London many years
17 ago.
18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I will let you know, Mr.
19 Sweetman.
20 MR. SWEETMAN: Thank you very much.
21
22
23 A SHORT ADJOURNMENT
24
25
26
27
28
29
31
1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AFTER THE SHORT
2 ADJOURNMENT, AS FOLLOWS:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am sorry for being a bit
5 late, Mr. Stephenson. We
6 have no further questions now to ask you, Mr.
7 Stephenson. We would ask you however to come back
8 to sign the transcript of the evidence. The
9 evidence will be transcribed and typed up and Miss
10 Cummins will be in touch with you in a week or so
11 about it.
12 A. Fine.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: There is one matter that
14 we would like you to do.
15 The evidence suggests to us that there was a trust
16 deed of some sort executed in relation to your
17 affairs. I appreciate your recollection is that you
18 knew nothing about this, but we can tell you, Mr.
19 Stephenson that from the information we have that
20 Mr. Traynor organised matters in such away that
21 perhaps the Dublin client in every case did not know
22 that a trust was being established. So what we
23 would ask you to do is to write in Ansbacher in
24 Cayman, and we can give you the address, and ask
25 them have they any records of a trust being
26 established on your behalf.
27
28 Now, it is quite possible that you are not named in
29 the Trust and you will have to explain that to them
32
1 and they will have to look at that records to see
2 was Mr. Traynor in touch with them about the
3 establishment of a trust on your behalf.
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. SWEETMAN: May I request that if you
6 have any other papers, we
7 have been trying to get papers from Guinness & Mahon
8 and so far we have received nothing. Obviously you
9 have had more success, but If you have further
10 papers relating to Mr. Stephenson's affairs, is it
11 in order that copies of those be made available to
12 him?
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No, Mr. Sweetman,unless we
14 are going to use them for
15 the purpose of our findings. We have just produced
16 to you the documents that we consider relevant.
17 MR. SWEETMAN: Thank you.
18
19
20 THE INTERVIEW THEN CONCLUDED
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
33
diiu/Aff^
So\jLCx.Vor>
V D u ^ ^
3 Vvoxj-e-rvJ^tLr- 5 . 0 o
STRICTLY PRIVATE !c CaWglDENT IAL
J.D.T. to 18th May, 1976.
re: sam stbgapfsqir fcarthpr gibwby
Attached hereto is a schedule show log the present borrowings by

flan on his personal Account, Arthur on his personal Account.
Stephenson Glbney U Associates Partnership Account, Stephenson
and Glbney Joint Account, Ailesbury Securities Account
(beneficially owned by Sam add Arthur) and Saa Stephenson Vara
Account.
In addition GuinnessttahonLondon has guaranteed £66,000 to
P.tf.C.B. Dublin on their behalf we, of course, have counter-
guaranteed London.
Saa Stephenson has guaranteed the Account of Avoca Investments
Llaited on which a loss of 225,000 is estlaated.
The total involveaent could therefore be as follows*
Per Schedule 498,414
Guarantee 7.N.C.b., 88,000
Guarantee Avoca 38,000
£888,414
Against this there would be Trust funds totalling £333,376 making

a shortfall of £396,038.
The security which we hold Is as follows
Title Deeds Allesbury Securities Llaited
estlaated to realise not less than 75,000
Ballynoe Bouse and Para estlaated 145,000
Saa Stephenson Mewa estlaated 45,000
Arthur Glbney Hews estlaated 20,000
Arthur Glbney Wexford Farm estlaated 60,000

Arthur Glbney Cloatarf Bouse estlaated 9,000
£354,0OO
Each has signed a joint and several Guarantee limited to £10,000

lor Beresford Investments Limited. This has been ignored as
Ra• SAM STEPHENSONfcARTHUR GIBNEY ISth May, 1976.
Bach has signed a Guarantee for 12$% of a loss In Genlni

Securities.
1 y
l No
No entries
antrlss -+
otner"- tnap Charges or Credits can* be
I aid* ocrw without ay specific aothorlsatlon.
^D.T.
JDT/AJW
S. STEPHBSOfl A.tllHCY TOTAj.
Nrsrntl Account. 1127,517. IS Dr. 1102,484. SO Or. 1229,981. SS.Dr.
Attasbury Saairltta. 37.JHJ7..3S Or. I 37,907. 31.Dr. I 75,«•. 72.Br.
StepJwsen 61bMy MHl AuoeUta. I 18.01. OS Or. I SS.SS1. OS Or. 1111,92. II Dr.
Sttphmun wd SlbtMy. t 40.9SS. 70 Br. I 40,988. TO.Dr. 1 81,937. 40 Dr.
Fara Accowrt. I . 6t1. S3 Cr. 2 8ZI. S3 Cr.
SSI .422. 78.Dr. (238,991. 84 Dr. 1498.414. 40 Dr.

r\
8AUSCB AS AT 17TH.HAV. 197S

Q m GUJNNESS+MAHON LTD
17Cottege Green Dublin 2 RQ Bot 55A Stephens. 7S3U4
Prlvato and Confirtonctal 14th October, 1370.

•J
San Stophenecn, Esq.,
Sessrs. Stophenson GlbneyftAssociates,
ttolyneux House,
67/89 Bride Street,
DtfBLIH 8.
Bear Sir,
We refer to tbe facility let tor dated 28 th
September, 1978 ond addressed to you ay us. Ve have '
been Informed by Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
that they will carry out your Instructions in the
fallowing respects:
i 1- Existing hypothecation agreements relating
to Call Deposits made with them will be
cancelled and funds so deposited with them
will be hypothecated against your personal
loan account and that of Mr. Arthur Glbney's
in this Bank only.
Existing aecond lien on Call Deposit* will
he cancelled.
3. £20,000 is to be transferred to cur ordor in
• connection with Gemini and Sir. Glbney's Cayman
! deposits are to be debited correspondingly.
4. ilr. Glbney's Cayman deposits are to be debited
with £15,954.08 and this amount credited to
your Cayman deposits.
' 5. A sum Is to be transferred, aa directed by you.
On the assumptions that the proceeds of Ballynoe
•
1
amounted to £180,000 exaotly, and were received
by the Bank as at 30th September, this sua would
have been £21,073.83. This sum will be adjusted
to the extent that the proceeds so received by
the Bank amount to more or less than £160,000
and will also be adjusted to make allowance for
interest from 1st October to date of receipt.
It is further understood and agreed that the No.
1 Loan, referred to In thefacilityletter nddrassad to you,
shall be utilised to pay existing borcpwlnKs. The N'o.2
i
Ivk-Ipt LmC I'iauJj
k F C Vauc-iwv
Loan will alao bo uaod to pay existinK borrowintisftnd, -7-.1
011 .receipt of the proceeds or sale of Ballynoe. «11 be X
doalt with as statod in paragraph 6 (a) of the facility
lector as further explained above.
Yours faithfully
CUINNKSSfcMAHON LTD.
1
our Batt PO'D/AO 23 rd September 1977,
Dear Sir*
Ylth.reference to correspondence under separate cover,
I wish to advise that tho balance on your Account with
Gulnnese Mahon Canaan Trust, as at 30th September 1977 will
amount to 234,280.45, sueh sum Includes intereet to that
date. Kindly advise w bather you von Id wish that this sum be
transferred baete to repay your Ho. 3 Loan, or whether you
Intend dlsoharrlng the Loan Aacount, leavia; the Guinness Stehon
Cayman Trust funds free.
Tours faithfully,
P. O'Dwyer,
Loans Officer
/•N
t
<
fyljlMD*
Our Hats PO'D/AC 8th Ootober 1977.
Vr. Christopher J. Dodd,

38* Upper Mount Street,
DUBLIN a.
Dear Chris,
Vltb reference to roars of ^ .b September to
llr. J.D. Traynor., he has referred the matter to me as I am
dealing vltb It.
I have pleasure In enclosing herewith statements of
Sam's Ho. 1 and Ko, a Loan Accounts from the 1st Ootober to
date, also I am attaohlny a schedule showing the backing Cayman
funds. Ton will note that one Account was closed by transfer
to credit of the No. I Resident Loan Account and that the Ko. 2
Account 1s still in existence.
I X bare today sent direct to Arthur dlbney statement

covering bis Loan Aeaount from the 1st October 1976 to closing,
together vltb s note for the asms period on the Cayman end.
r von Id be grateful if* at your early convenience, yau
would confirm the position and also advise arising out of ay
letter of the 23rd September to Sam.
I
I Tours sincerely,
P. O'Dwyer,
Loans Officer.
: Kfe? -
-A
IB, BiV BTHPHHfSCN
MP. I ACCOUHT
1st October 1976 Balance £170,393.20
31st December 1976 Interest 8 4,394.89
20th January 1977 Interest £ 981.89.

£175,881.98
Account closed by transfer to
Saa Stephenson's 1>oaa
SO. a ACGOOBT
1st October 1978 Balance '£31,073.88
31st Deceaber 1978 Interest £ 810,00
31st March 1977 Interest £ 939.41
30th Jfcne 1977 Interest £ 781.19
30th September 1977 Interest £ 708.95
30th September 1977 Balance £34,380.48

31, LHSOO Close,
Dublin, 2.
J» D. Traynor, k January, 1978

Deputy Chairman,
Ouionoaa A Mahon Ltd.,
17, College O-reen,
Dublin. 8,.
Deer Dee,
•Z hove received letters from P. O'Dwyer oallinr in th< various
Loan Account* which are outstanding X suggest that the
following* proposals will .effectively clear the liability* i n
the.shorbeat possible timet
1. Sfrenhenaon Cttbney A Assooiat«» n Balanoe 31/12/77 C6Q.
Please oredit the Cayman funds of £24,896. to this ao count. I
propose to raise building society finance on 31 Leeson C l o e e
and request you to confirm that you will release the title '
deeds for thie purpose. Any shortfall after the lodgment of
the bull din* society loan is received, will- be oloared
immediately ao that this account will s cleared in full.
2. Ailesburv Seourities Ltd. Loan Balance 31/12/77 S2fr.98l.

Tbe property at Bride Street i» let. At a Rental of X^GZT. p.
which will dear the pi uoipal loan in three years approx.
Vould you please extend this loan for this period on the
understending th&t the interest paymente will be p*id on the
due dates.
3» Sea Stephonson Loan Balance 31/12/77 £31.771.

Z nggast that my share of tho outstanding Marlborough,
funds should be eet off againot this loan.
Yours sinoecely,
Per*
G U W N E S S + M A H O N LTD
MBSOWAL Slat January, 1878.
8. Stephenson, Esq.,
31 Lssson Close,.
PPBLiy a.
Dsar Sam,
Many thanks for yours of the 4th January and regrets that
due to a heary travel load in January I have not repllod before
now.
As yon know frcan previous- disouMlons I do not personally
deal with your Accounts and I hays accordingly handed your letter
to Pat <VjBif,ox Ukjrocess. I would, bower, make two points
to you: v
1. tfowaan Funds/
• M M i i a M M M M M M
Ih*sâyaaj^4unds are hypothecated against your personal

AccqunTand as suoh it will he nacsssary to bring those
funds back to the ored&t of your Aooount. . If you
arrange to let ne have an instruction addressed to
Guinness Ifahon Cayman Trust Limited I shall arrange with
them to have the funds transferred value date Monday,
• 9th January.
2. Maryborough
As explained to Chris, I do not know how suoh vill be
' available In connection vlth Marlborough nor the timing
as to the availability and this vill depend completely
on hov -long It takes the Revenue to sort matters out.
When Pat has processed matters he vill contact you.
Tburs sincerely,
J.P. "Traynor.
Appendix XV (122) (1) (h)
28th Jura 1878
Mr. J 0 Tnymr,
Deputy Chairman,
Mwrs GulnnottftMahorv
Dublin 2.
. Thank youferyaw htm of the 19th June

Theai am unfertunataly unaccsptabb w U a n between the fbr»
mai fadlty (attars of the 3rd of ao* andthelettanofth«3rdof
Nbniaryfrom Gulmma ftMahon. On the 13th Manh I wrote
lo Mr. O'Dwyer gMnfl kwtructtoni en the personal account and
acoaptlnff the axtondon of the loan on the .Mhabtny Securities
and Staphenaon GibnayftAnodatss accounts, f andose copies
of thaaa two letters (La. 3id April, 13th April}
Than I m as a continuation of our setdarnent agreement of the
30th September 1978 end I am gladtosea your latter of tha 18th
confirm this.
The Saptembar 078 agraamentwfth the bank dealt with ftvadlff*
Brant loan account! Three of thssa have been cleared off and
only tworemain, namely AiMbury SaeutMai and Stephenson
GlbneyftAasodatsa, both of vvhlch It b Imandad tie dear as
quickly as posdbh. You already hold adequate security by way
of guarantaas and tWe documents.
I em also prepared toflfeayou authority to uaa my dun of the
ftmds andfeesdue from the ale of the Meriboreugh Properties
at Wlnton Road, and B«rssford Investments to be used to clear
thaaa accounts.
I do net aae any wesm why *w ihould depart from the settle-
ment agreement of 90th September 078 andfrom your latter
of the 18th June I foal that thbh your Intension.
It la your SoRdton who are suggesting legal proceedings, which
I ftar would not be In any of ourfcitsrastsand I would urge you
torestrainthem. Let us continue cur agreement of 30th Sept-
amber I976 and It ihould aeon be completed.
Yours sincerely.
Appendix XV (122) (l)(i)
Staphanaan Aa*odat»a Yoar refi JOO/DQ
Oatabtr 10 1978
RiMm Arthur Co* ft Company

Solicitor* - XT ' <*' '
42/45 St. SUpham Craan • ^ ~
Dublin 2
Rat Cnfanaai 4c Mahon Limited.
DaarSta,
I hart your lattar of tha 28th September 1978.
It would appear Aran your letter al th* S9lfa Augnrt dut yourclientiluwv totdyoo or
son* ol the facto. Art yon aware that a aettlraent agreement covering ia a total poek-
i n my pemonal, corporate, properly aid Unit account! waa concluded fa Autumn
1974 and h m yon copiaa of (boa docnmentaf Yotar cllenta an weU aware thai iht
fsndnlnf loom an a bufgniflemt proportion of lli« overall aitintlon which then
i existed, ami would conmdmlly Qn to treat the pnaent loana in flotation.
Furthermore, your dfanta unilaterallyattended tin orkfaial agreement fay aeeldng
! additional aacnrily « n r toy Horn*. I am prepared to i k m by tua otUndL agreement
| but no mora; my acceptance of your client* facility letters of earlier thii jeer it baaed
| ' on thfa* propoatUOn. Mn Bemadetta Stapfianaon refueoc to a%n anything which
f ~ ' ' '
I I aota that you intend to kaua pneaadtep andfat my defence 1 wSI ba ohHged to
| teiwal Ilia AiB lama of th* aatHamant agreement and thla will reflect no credit on
I- ' - your client*. I would be reluctant to do tha.
I '
| ' . I would refer you to my letter of 24th July 1978, whan I relumed 0w agreemente
and guaraataoa ajgned by m«.
• . .
If your dlantt m prepared to. accept that* document* t am prepared to depoeil
£10,000 to reduce the Stepfaaneoo Ginney ft Aooehtaa account and returaa interest
payment! on tha bona from lit Decraber 1978.
Youra «iacorely,
SAM STEPHENS ON
MICHAEL PEART GREEN ACRES
CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT LOUGHANURE
REGISTERED AUDITOR CLANE
REGISTERED TRAINER CO. KILDARE
TELEPHONE: 045-868168
FACSIMILE: 045-861369
FOR THE ATTENTION OF FRANCES GAYNOR
Office of the Inspectors

Appointed by the High Court
to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd
3 r d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
3 January 2002
RE: YOUR REFERENCE NO. C/S01/NSPM
Dear Sir
I am acting for Mr Sam Stephenson to whom you wrote on 3 December 2001, to

inform him of your preliminary conclusion that "(he) was a client of Ansbacher".
While I understand the thought processes which have caused you to come to this
conclusion within the terms of your own terminology, I must inform you of two very
important matters which entirely alter the impression your conclusion would convey if
you include it as a statement in your report to the High Court.
Firstly, the monies belonging to Mr Sam Stephenson which were deposited with
Guinness Mahon Cayman, were transferred before the enactment of sections 57 to
61 of the Finance Act 1974. Whether or not it was the intention behind the transfer,
devised by persons known to Des Traynor and implemented by him on behalf of Mr
Sam Stephenson, to avoid Irish income tax on the interest according to the monies
on deposit with Guinness Mahon Cayman, it was not illegal to do so prior to the 1974
legislation. With the enactment of that legislation it became illegal unless "the
transfer and any associated operations were bona fide commercial transactions and
were not designed for the purpose of avoiding liability to taxation" (FA 1974
s57(3)(b). In this case, "the transfer and any associated operations" means the
retention for the time being of these monies belonging to Mr Sam Stephenson in
Guinness Mahon Cayman and this retention was most certainly "a bona fide
commercial transaction not designed for the purpose of avoiding liability to taxation"
because:
(a) Des Traynor needed, for banking commercial reasons, to retain this off-shore
deposit system for the absolute control which it afforded to him over the
security for the Guinness Mahon Ireland loans made to Mr Sam Stephenson
to finance their joint property transactions (please note your piece of
evidence, an internal memo from Des Traynor dated 18 May 1976 which ends
"no entries other than bank interest/charges or credits can be made now
without my specific instructions"); and
(b) there was no liability to taxation to be avoided as the property transactions
and interest charges had resulted in such large losses that all Mr Sam
Stephenson's personal assets were being called in (please see the same
internal memo from Des Traynor dated 18 May 1976).
Secondly, your use of the term "Ansbacher" in the case of Mr Sam Stephenson is
unfortunate, misleading and potentially libellous because by your own admission, the
term "Ansbacher" has become pejorative and Mr Sam Stephenson only ever had
deposits with Guinness Mahon Cayman (as Mr Sam Stephenson remembers it and
understood it at the time) or Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited (as it may
actually have been to satisfy the scheme implemented by Des Traynor). Bearing in
mind that in 1971, when according to your document, Guinness Mahon Cayman was
set up, it was not illegal to benefit from it even if it were the intention to avoid Irish tax
and also bearing in mind that in this case it continued not to be illegal after the 1974
legislation, then referring to Guinness Mahon Cayman as "Ansbacher" is entirely
misleading with consequences to Mr Sam Stephenson's interests, good name / or
reputation. At no time did Mr Stephenson have an account with a bank which had
"Ansbacher" in its name.
To conclude, it would be grossly unfair to include Mr Sam Stephenson's name in your

report to the High Court and I must object to your doing so.
Please note that if your actions result in damage to Mr Sam Stephenson's interests,
good name and/or reputation, then he reserves the right to take such action as he
may be advised.
MICHAEL PEART
Appendix XV (123) Super Ser Limited
Super Ser Limited.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr James Henry (John Harold) Lindsay dated 24

March 2000.
b) Guinness and Mahon credit committee memo re Super Ser Limited.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Super Ser Limited.
a) Letter of 3 December 2001 - Gore & Grimes Solicitors to Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 24TH MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY
Represented by: MR. KARL HAYES
GORE & GRIMES

INDEX
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. J. LINDSAY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS ON TUESDAY,
2 2 4TH MARCH 2 000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, we will start
5 our interview.
6 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is Declan Costello
8 and Ms. Mackey is on my
9 right. We are the Inspectors, two of the
10 Inspectors, appointed by The High Court, as you
11 know.
12 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you
14 that this is not a Court.
15 It is not a tribunal.
16 MR. LINDSAY: Right.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is an investigation.
18 MR. LINDSAY: Sure.
19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If in the course of the
20 questions that we ask, you
21 wish to consult with your solicitor please tell me
22 that you wish to consult and we will stop the
23 questioning while to do so.
24 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If your solicitor wishes
26 to consult with you he can
27 indicate this to me and we will stop questioning for
28 that purpose.
29 MR. LINDSAY: Right, Okay.
4
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, in this
2 investigation your
3 evidence will be taken under oath and I will ask our
4 solicitor now, Ms. Cummins, to administer the oath
5 to you.
6 MR. LINDSAY: Yes. Do I stand up?
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No, it is all right.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS
2 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, there is
5 one preliminary matter
6 that I want to raise with you?
7 A. Yes.
8 2 Q. In our letter to you we asked you for a detailed
9 statement about your relationship with "Ansbacher"
10 and we have not received any statement?
11 A. Just a moment ago Mr. Hayes here mentioned that to
12 me.
13 3 Q. Yes?
14 A. There was a chap in Deloitte Touche called
15 Eamonn Coates and I understood from him that he had
16 made the arrangement that I come here and, in fact,
17 that was it. I looked through that.
18 4 Q. However, Mr. Lindsay it could not be clearer. We
19 asked in our letter to you for a full and detailed
20 statement of all the dealings that the company had
21 with you either directly or indirectly. What was
22 the problem about giving us a statement?
23 A. Absolutely no problem. I mean it is a stupid thing
24 to say but I didn't even see that because what I
25 immediately did was I got in touch
26 with Eamonn Coates.
27 5 Q. What is his name?
28 A. Eamonn Coates.
29 6 Q. Coates?
6
1 A. He is with Deloitte Touche.
2 7 Q. Yes?
3 A. They were our accountants.
4 8 Q. Yes?
5 A. And I understood that he had contacted this office
6 here. He said, "What you have to do now is turn up
7 on the 24th".
8 9 Q. Yes. Did he not advise you that you should make a
9 statement?
10 A. No, he did not.
11 10 Q. Did you not see this in the letter?
12 A. No, I didn't. I must admit that when I saw so much
13 of this letter I thought, "Well, this is something
14 for my accountant".
15 11 Q. Yes. Perhaps, you can outline now to us?
16 A. Yes, certainly.
17 12 Q. What your...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. In other words my understanding...(INTERJECTION).
19 13 Q. No, sorry, just wait now. Just before we go on. We
20 also asked for all the documents that you had?
21 A. I don't have any documents. I haven't had for maybe
22 ten years or so.
23 14 Q. Who were your accountants?
24 A. Deloitte Touche.
25 15 Q. From 1979?
26 A. From before that.
27 16 Q. From before that?
28 A. Yes.
29 17 Q. Have you asked them have they any records or
7
1 documents ?
2 A. No, but I presume they have the records, all our tax
3 records.
4 18 Q. Yes. However, also all your relationships with the
5 company, would they not have?
6 A. With which company now?
7 19 Q. With "Ansbacher"?
8 A. I don't think we had any relationship with
9 "Ansbacher".
10 20 Q. Do you not?
11 A. I don't think so.
13 A. Because at the time when our
14 company...(INTERJECTION).
15 22 Q. No, I am talking about your company. I am talking
16 about you personally?
17 A. No, I know personally. When it went belly up --
18 that I think was about the time that
19 Guinness & Mahon became involved with "Ansbacher".
20 23 Q. Are you saying that you had no relationship at all
21 with the company, with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
22 Company, which subsequently changed its name
23 to "Ansbacher"?
24 A. Yes, certainly with Guinness & Mahon, yes.
25 24 Q. No?
26 A. Very much so.
27 25 Q. No, I am asking: Did you have any relationship with
28 the company itself, with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
29 Limited?
1 A. Yes, Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, yes.
2 26 Q. You did?
3 A. Yes.
4 27 Q. Personally?
5 A. No. Well, the company.
6 28 Q. No, no. Leave the company. I am not asking you
7 about the company, Mr. Lindsay?
8 A. Yes.
9 29 Q. I am asking you personally. Did you not have a
10 personal relationship?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 30 Q. You did?
13 A. Yes, subsequent -- well, we will come to that.
14 31 Q. How are we to carry out this investigation if you
15 have not given us the documents?
16 A. But I haven't got any documents.
17 32 Q. Your accountants have?
18 A. I presume they have.
19 33 Q. Very well then. Tell us about your own personal
20 relationship with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
21 Limited?
22 A. Right, Cayman -- you see that is subsequent to the
23 Super Ser business.
24 34 Q. Yes?
25 A. Because when the Super Ser business went flat I got
26 a job in Bangladesh and during that time I had
27 problems at home. My wife was looking for a divorce
28 and she had a Court Order at one time that I
29 couldn't issue any cheques.
9
1 35 Q. What year are we talking about?
2 A. 1986 or 1987 I would think, somewhere about there.
3 I had three kids in college in America and they had
4 to be paid.
5 36 Q. What are their names?
6 A. Ann Lindsay.
7 37 Q. Alan?
8 A. Ann.
9 38 Q. Ann?
10 A. Ann, yes.
11 39 Q. Yes?
12 A. And she was in a university called Highland
13 University near Alberqueque near Mexico.
14 40 Q. Yes?
15 A. Now, she wouldn't go over there unless her boyfriend
16 went with her.
17 41 Q. We need not go into these details. What were the
18 other sons?
19 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).
20 42 Q. Had you sons?
21 A. Yes.
22 43 Q. What were their names?
23 A. Yes, Ralph Lindsay.
24 44 Q. Yes?
25 A. And he was in Washington State University doing
26 forestry.
27 45 Q. Had you another son?
28 A. Yes, Alan.
29 46 Q. Alan?
10
1 A. He lives in Spain.
2 47 Q. Yes. You were saying then that something happened
3 in 1986?
4 A. Yes. I rang up Mr. Traynor and said, "I have got a
5 problem here and any money that I have sent to a
6 bank or to Dublin I can't write a cheque on it."
7 So, he said, "You just get the money sent to me and
8 I will sort that out," which he did. It was in
9 Cayman and that is how I became involved with --
10 personally now, that is how I became involved with
11 Guinness & Mahon Cayman.
12 48 Q. Yes. Tell us what the arrangement was?
13 A. The arrangement was that the money would be sent to
14 him and then whenever I wanted money sent to pay
15 school fees or anything like that he would forward
16 the money.
17 49 Q. Yes. Did he tell you what he was going to do with
18 the money? You forwarded money to him?
19 A. Yes .
20 50 Q. Did he tell you what he was going to do with it?
21 A. No. He was going to pay any bills that I wanted
22 paid out of it.
23 51 Q. Did he tell you it was going into the Cayman, the
24 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company?
25 A. I don't remember him using that term actually
26 but...(INTERJECTION).
27 52 Q. What did you understand, Mr. Lindsay?
28 A. Well, in those days -- I mean I certainly hadn't the
29 same understanding of Cayman.

1 53 Q. Mr. Lindsay, what did you understand that he was
2 going to do with the money? Where was he putting
3 it? Where was he going to deposit it?
4 A. I honestly don't know. I presume it was Cayman.
5 54 Q. Yes?
6 A. Because it was out of the jurisdiction of the
7 Court Order that was against me.
8 55 Q. Yes. Tell me everything now that you can about this
9 arrangement?
10 A. Well, that worked okay. All the fees were paid and
11 all the rest of it. Each of the three were four
12 years in college and when it was more or less over
13 there was a remainder and I said -- I had a son in
14 Spain who was getting married and I got the
15 remainder sent to him to buy his house.
16 56 Q. Yes.
17 A. That was the end of that association.
18 57 Q. Yes. Did you enter into any Trust Deed in relation
19 to this arrangement?
20 A. No, none at all.
21 58 Q. You just... (INTERJECTION) ?
22 A. It was just done...(INTERJECTION).
23 59 Q. You just handed on money to Mr. Traynor?
24 A. Yes, and that was the way I had dealt with him from
25 the very beginning.
26 60 Q. Yes. Did you pay any tax on the interest that the
27 money earned?
28 A. No. I don't even know if it did earn interest.
29 61 Q. Mr. Lindsay, I want to put some documents now to you
12
1 that have come into our possession as a result of
2 the investigation. This is the first ledger
3 "Resident & Non-Resident Loans". It is one that
4 is 1973. If you would hand that up to him
5 (Same handed)?
6 A. Thank you.
7 62 Q. No, no. It is not that.
8 MS CUMMINS: It is, Judge, I have taken
9 the names out of it just.
10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, all right. Hand it
11 up (Same Handed).
12 A. Thank you.
13 63 Q. Sorry, would you just give me that back please. It
14 does not matter about the names Ms. Cummins. Show
15 me that letter? It does not matter about the names.
16 Just hand it up (Exhibit 1) (Same handed)?
17 A. Yes .
18 64 Q. This is a record from Guinness & Mahon here in
19 Ireland?
20 A. Yes .
21 65 Q. It is a record of "Resident & Non-Resident Loans"?
22 A. Yes .
23 66 Q. It refers to you Mr. Lindsay, "J. H. Lindsay," and
24 it is a loan of £17,000. There is a balance on the
25 loan of £17,445.80. You will see that the repayment
26 date is 1973 and then the comment "suitably
27 secured," is written after it. This is a loan in
28 1973 to you personally?
29 A. Yes .
1 67 Q. By Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. Maybe. I don't know.
3 68 Q. You do not remember?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 69 Q. You see the information which we have obtained
6 Mr. Lindsay is that the phrase "suitably secured",
7 means that it was a cash back loan and that it was
8 on a deposit in the name of Guinness Mahon Cayman
9 Trust Limited?
10 A. Yes .
11 70 Q. That is what the "suitably secured" means. If this
12 is so this would appear that you had a loan from
13 Guinness & Mahon as far back as 1973 that was
14 secured on -- that was cash backed?
15 A. The only security that Guinness & Mahon ever got
16 from us was -- I know I have to answer you directly
17 but may I go just a little bit beyond that?
18 71 Q. Yes?
19 A. When we first of all got the agencies for these
20 units, these heaters, portable gas heaters.
21 72 Q. Yes?
22 A. We brought some of them home and they -- obviously
23 there was an interest in them and over a year they
24 started to, you know, sell. We then felt that if we
25 could get in a big number of these we could
26 definitely sell them.
27 73 Q. Yes?
28 A. So, I went to the Bank Of Ireland, which was my bank
29 and my father's bank and my grandfather's bank, but

1 any way they wouldn't give us the money. As a
2 matter of fact it might have been -- I don't know if
3 that would fit in with that or not but it might have
4 been about £17,000. It was a big sum then.
5 74 Q. Yes?
6 A. And we were with Haughey Boland then. They were our
7 accountants and they sent us to Guinness & Mahon and
8 there I met Mr. Traynor. He said, "Can you
9 definitely sell these?" I said, "Yes, absolutely,
10 definitely." He said, "What proof can you give me?"
11 I said, "Well, Calor Kosangas have said that they
12 would take a percentage of them." He said, "You get
13 me a substantial order from Calor Kosangas and I
14 will give you the money".
15 75 Q. Yes?
16 A. So, I went to Calor Kosangas and they agreed to take
17 them and I gave him the thing and he gave us the
18 money.
19 76 Q. This is you? You say "us" Mr. Lindsay?
20 A. Yes, the firm.
21 77 Q. No. However, this is not a loan to your firm. I
22 will come to the loans to the firm in a minute. I
23 am talking -- this is a personal loan to you?
24 A. Well, maybe at that stage it was a personal loan.
25 78 Q. Yes?
26 A. I don't even know if we were a firm then.
27 79 Q. You see the phrase "suitably secured"?
28 A. Yes, I do.
29 80 Q. Which I have drawn your attention to?

1 A. Yes .
2 81 Q. Did Mr. Traynor then make the arrangement that you
3 were to transfer money to the Cayman Islands?
4 A. No, he never mentioned that.
5 82 Q. You say that was in 1986?
6 A. That was -- yes, that was much later.
7 83 Q. I see. You see I have to suggest to you that this
8 loan was continued on Mr. Lindsay and that the
9 documents show that you were still indebted
10 to Guinness & Mahon in 1975. That is the first one.
11 Perhaps, I gave you the wrong date. It was 1973,
12 that was the repayment date. Would you look at the
13 other document "J. H. Lindsay" (Same Handed)?
14 A. Thank you.
15 84 Q. Again, "suitable secured". I must suggest to you
16 Mr. Lindsay that that loan, probably it was the same
17 loan, was secured by a Cayman deposit?
18 A. No, it wasn't. The only security, as I say, that we
19 ever gave Guinness & Mahon, and it happened again
20 later, was in the form that he would advance money
21 against orders.
22 85 Q. Mr. Lindsay, may I refer you to another document.
23 Ms. Cummins, it is the ledger account for 1987. It
24 shows a draft issue to Mr. Lindsay (Exhibit 2)(Same
25 Handed)?
26 A. Thank you.
28 A. Yes. When was this, 19...(INTERJECTION)?
29 87 Q. 1987?
16
1 A. 1987.
2 88 Q. I will just show you what this document is. It is a
3 ledger account in Dublin of Guinness & Mahon. It is
4 the account of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.
5 Do you see that on the left-hand side, the top on
6 the left-hand side?
7 A. Yes.
9 A. Yes.
10 90 Q. You see it is a sterling account. That Guinness
11 Mahon Cayman Trust Limited had in Guinness & Mahon
12 Limited?
13 A. Yes.
14 91 Q. Do you see about a third of the way down on the
15 left-hand side in February 1987;
16 "draft issued to J. H. Lindsay"?
17
18 A. Yes.
19 92 Q. £13,411?
20 A. I don't think the figure is there, but is it?
21 93 Q. Perhaps, it is the wrong figure?
22 A. Yes.
23 94 Q. Sorry. It is £1,000. I am sorry I am misreading
24 it.
25 A. £1,000.
26 95 Q. It is £1,066?
27 A. £1,066.
28 96 Q. Yes?
29 A. Yes.
17
1 97 Q. Is that not a draft issued to you for £1,066.26 from
2 the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited account?
3 A. I don't know what it is. I could make suggestions.
4 98 Q. Just look at it now. Does it not appear that the
5 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited account is
6 debited with this figure, this draft, which is
7 payable to you?
8 A. Yes, but by this stage the company had an account in
9 Cayman.
10 99 Q. I am just asking you about this payment to you, out
11 to you personally?
12 A. I have no idea. I mean it could have been for
13 tickets, air tickets, or I don't know.
14 100 Q. Out of the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
15 account?
16 A. Out of our account in the Cayman.
17 101 Q. No, this is your personal payment, a payment to you,
18 out of the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited?
19 A. I have no idea why they put that there.
20 102 Q. Yes?
21 A. I have no idea at all.
22 103 Q. All right. I want you to look at page 29. It is a
23 report about H. Lindsay (Exhibit 3)(Same Handed)?
24 A. Thank you.
25 104 Q. I want to explain to you what this document is
26 Mr. Lindsay?
27 A. Yes.
28 105 Q. This is a report from Guinness & Mahon. It is 1978,
29 April 1978?
18
1 A. Yes.
2 106 Q. It is a report to The Central Bank by
3 Guinness & Mahon. It is describing its major loans
4 to the bank?
5 A. Yes.
6 107 Q. To The Central Bank. It has there,
7 "H. Lindsay - £156,537".
9 That is you. You are described as:
10 "Mr. Lindsay is a major shareholder in

Super Ser Limited."?
11
12 A. Yes.
13 108 Q. Is that you?
14 A. Yes, I was a 50% shareholder.
15 109 Q. Yes. It says the purpose of the loan was
16 "personal loan/working capital".
17
18 Do you remember that loan?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 110 Q. Do you see it says that securities are held?
21 A. Securities,
22 "Guarantees are held up to £175,000..."
23
24 111 Q. Guarantees?
25 A. Yes.
26 112 Q. Yes. Then it goes on:
27 "Comment: Guinness & Mahon are happy

to continue this facility to
28 Mr. Lindsay. No facility letter was
available in respect of this loan which
29 was arranged personally by
Mr. Traynor."
19
2 Can you remember that?
3 A. I mean I never got £156,000 or £175,000 from
4 Guinness & Mahon personally. I can only suggest
5 that they are confusing the company and me.
6 113 Q. Would you turn over the page to the next page
7 (Same Handed)?
8 A. Yes.
9 114 Q. This is a continuation and it talks about:
10 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay - £1,336,023"
11
12 and,
13 "Super Ser Limited - £1,179,486".
14
15 These are loans to, it says,
16 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay"?
17
18 A. Yes, all right. I don't see it.
19 115 Q. Do you remember...(INTERJECTION).
20 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
21 116 Q. Do you remember a substantial loan of £1.3 million?
22 A. No, I don't but I can imagine circumstances in which
23 it could have happened.
24 117 Q. Yes. The document says:
25 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay"?
26
27 A. Yes.
28 118 Q. Was it to you personally or to the company?
29 A. Well, I never got anything like that.
20
1 119 Q. You never got it?
2 A. No.
3 120 Q. You were mentioning that the company had deposits.
4 Do you see,
5 "Security: Super Ser Limited has

deposits of around £400,000 with
6 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited"?
8 A. Yes.
9 121 Q. That is what you are referring to? That seems to
10 have -- the company seems to have had deposits in
11 the Cayman Islands in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
12 Limited?
13 A. Yes.
14 122 Q. Do you see this was in 1978?
15 A. 1978, maybe.
16 123 Q. I should explain to you that I am not
17 investigating...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. No.
19 124 Q. We are not investigating the company today?
20 A. Yes.
21 125 Q. I am investigating your personal affairs?
22 A. Yes, all right.
23 126 Q. However, you referred to the fact that the company
24 had deposits?
25 A. Yes.
26 127 Q. I am just drawing your attention to this fact?
27 A. Yes. May I explain some of the intertwining?
28 128 Q. Yes, do?
29 A. Well, we started off selling heaters here and we had
21
1 an Irish company.
2 129 Q. What was the name of it?
3 A. Super Ser Limited.
4 130 Q. Super Ser Limited?
5 A. Yes.
6 131 Q. It was incorporated in Ireland?
7 A. Yes.
8 132 Q. And when you say "we" who was "we"?
9 A. A man called Goosen.
10 133 Q. Yes?
11 A. And myself.
12 134 Q. Yes?
13 A. We were 50/50 in it.
14 135 Q. Yes?
15 A. Then things began to dry up a bit here and we went
16 to England.
17 136 Q. Yes?
18 A. Mr. Goosen went to England and he started the same
19 thing there and I was also 50/50 in that.
20 137 Q. Yes?
21 A. Now, that sold an awful lot more stuff than we sold
22 in Ireland.
23 138 Q. What was the name of that company?
24 A. I think it was Super Ser UK Limited.
25 139 Q. Yes?
26 A. Or something.
27 140 Q. Yes?
28 A. Yes, and then subsequently we decided that our sales
29 were slowing down, and as the people who supplied us
22
1 with these heaters were getting more and more
2 expensive, and as more and more competition was
3 coming on the market it was, you know, really very
4 difficult for us to deal with Super Ser Spain
5 anymore. So, we decided to build a factory, which
6 we built.
7 141 Q. Where?
8 A. In Tallaght.
9 142 Q. Yes?
10 A. And we completely equipped that and we started to
11 make our own heaters.
12 143 Q. Was that Mr. Goosen and yourself?
13 A. Yes .
14 144 Q. Was that in Super Ser Limited or another company?
15 A. No, I am not quite sure what we called ourselves
16 then but the product that we made was Ardant,
17 A-r-d-a-n-t.
18 145 Q. Yes?
19 A. A-n-t, we were not allowed to have E-n-t.
20 146 Q. When was that Mr. Lindsay?
21 A. I don't know. It might have been somewhere around
22 1978/1980.
23 147 Q. Could the loans that are referred to here, in this
24 document, be loans in respect of the building of the
25 factory?
26 A. It could be but I am not saying definitely it is.
27 148 Q. Yes?
28 A. We now had a factory and we had a lot of people
29 working in it and we had an expensive Research &
23
1 Development Department, and it got to the point
2 where we had to sell 70,000 units before we broke
3 even.
4 149 Q. Could I just interrupt you? What is the name of the
5 company that you are talking about?
6 A. Our factory?
7 150 Q. What was the name of the company?
8 A. I think it was Ardant.
9 151 Q. Ardant?
10 A. A-r-d-a-n-t.
11 152 Q. Limited?
12 A. Yes .
13 153 Q. It was a separate factory. Did Super Ser Limited
14 remain in business?
15 A. No, no, that ran down.
16 154 Q. Yes?
17 A. So, in other words what we were doing was supplying
18 our customers from Tallaght instead of from Spain.
19 155 Q. Yes?
20 A. But it became obvious then that -- when we started
21 to sell the heaters a bottle of gas was 18 shillings
22 or a pound or something like that, and that would
23 enable a person to give some measure of heat to a
24 house for a week.
25 156 Q. Yes?
26 A. But by this time now, up about around 1980 or
27 thereabouts, it was something like £10 for a bottle
28 of gas and that plus the fact that they do not wear
29 out the place got saturated, we knew we had to get
24
1 markets somewhere else. So, I went to America to
2 see what could be done there but the sale of unflued
3 gas heaters was forbidden there. I went there and
4 there was a man in the United States who is in
5 charge of all standards.
6 157 Q. If I could interrupt you Mr. Lindsay? I am not
7 today concerned about the company liabilities?
8 A. Yes, right.
9 158 Q. I am concerned about your own personal liabilities?
10 A. Yes, right, yes.
11 159 Q. And your arrangements, your own personal
12 arrangements ?
13 A. Yes .
14 160 Q. With Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited and
15 subsequently "Ansbacher"?
16 A. Yes .
17 161 Q. So unless what you are telling me now is something
18 to do...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. Well, I think it is.
20 162 Q. With your personal...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. Well, I think -- yes, I think it has, in so much as
22 eventually we were successful and we were the only
23 company, not Japanese, German, Italian or Spanish,
24 nothing -- we were the only company to get a heater
25 passed for the United States.
26 163 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. And then we started a company in the Unites States
28 and we appointed a man, an accountant.
29 164 Q. What was the name of that company?

1 A. Well, I now -- It probably has our own name. I am
2 not too sure but I know the name of the product that
3 we sold was the Shamrock heater.
4 165 Q. However, again, I want to explain to you Mr. Lindsay
5 that I am concerned about your own
6 personal...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Yes .
8 166 Q. Relationship with Cayman?
9 A. Sure.
10 167 Q. I am not quite certain what relevance this has?
11 A. Well, when we started the factory, or the company in
12 America, a man called John Grace was the man we
13 appointed to run it.
14 168 Q. Yes?
15 A. And we transferred money from England, from
16 Super Ser UK because they had more money in their
17 account than we had, to start this American company.
18 Although I was never in Cayman I understood that
19 this bank, that was looking after us was in Cayman.
20 169 Q. Yes?
21 A. But may I say that -- I mean in those days Cayman
22 was just a name of another bank. It didn't have the
23 sort of ramifications that it has today.
24 170 Q. Mr. Lindsay, would you look at another document?
25 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 4). I will explain what this
26 document is to you. This is from Mr. Furze. Do you
27 know who Mr. Furze is?
28 A. I never met him but I knew who he was.
29 171 Q. You know the name?

1 A. Yes.
2 172 Q. He is, in fact, a Managing Director, one of the
3 Managing Directors of the Guinness Mahon Cayman
4 Trust Company in Cayman?
5 A. Yes, I knew he was associated with Des Traynor.
6 173 Q. Yes. That is from Mr. Furze?
7 A. Right.
9 A. Alan Lindsay, that is it.
10 175 Q. Yes?
11 A. That is what I was talking about, I am sure.
12 176 Q. This is a transfer of £270,000:
13 "Should be grateful if you would

arrange the transfer of Stg£270,000
14 to..."
15
16 Barcelona?
17 A. Yes.
18 177 Q. This is the account of an Alan Lindsay?
19 A. Yes.
20 178 Q. This is from The Irish Intercontinental Bank
21 Limited?
22 A. Well, now, I never had anything to do with
23 Intercontinental Bank.
24 179 Q. You may not have known it but the account which you
25 could draw on?
26 A. Yes.
27 180 Q. Was at that time -- it had been moved to The Irish
28 Intercontinental Bank?
29 A. Yes.
27
1 181 Q. This is the sum of money that you paid to your son,
2 is that right?
3 A. Yes .
4 182 Q. This was paid out of the account of Guinness Mahon
5 Cayman Trust in IIB?
6 A. Yes .
7 183 Q. You see the debit?
8 A. Yes .
9 184 Q. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes. Is it of any interest where I got that money?
11 185 Q. Sorry?
12 A. Is it of any interest where I got that money?
13 186 Q. If you want to tell me, yes?
14 A. I know you want to stick directly on the point.
15 187 Q. Yes. I want to stick to your
17 A. Yes. First of all the business, the heater
18 business, in the United States blossomed. It went
19 tremendously and then suddenly all the gas
20 suppliers, all the Seven Sisters as they call
21 themselves, stopped the supply of gas for portable
22 gas heaters because it says -- in the States the
23 legal position was that people would start wheeling
24 them up against curtains and so forth and it was too
25 liable for claims and they had ordered that the
26 supply of gas for heaters to be stopped. So, in one
27 day our business was stopped.
28 188 Q. Yes?
29 A. Then after that I had to do something and I got a

1 job as a production engineer.
2 189 Q. I am sorry. I am going to stop you Mr. Lindsay
3 because I just am concerned to obtain evidence from
4 you about your relationship with Guinness Mahon
5 Cayman Trust Limited?
6 A. Yes .
7 190 Q. It looks as if you had £270,000?
8 A. £270,000, yes.
9 191 Q. There?
10 A. Yes .
11 192 Q. Which was transferred to your son?
12 A. And that was after I had paid for three children.
13 193 Q. Yes?
14 A. For four years.
15 194 Q. Yes. However, what I am suggesting to you, perhaps
16 you could comment on it Mr. Lindsay, is that it is
17 extremely unlikely that a sum of that magnitude
18 would not be earning interest?
19 A. I never got any documents. I never got a sheet of
20 paper. It was absolutely trust and I trusted
21 Des Traynor.
22 195 Q. I am sure of that?
23 A. And I would trust him again.
24 196 Q. I am sure of that. However, Mr. Lindsay what I am
25 suggesting to you is that it is extremely unlikely
26 that that sum, which was on deposit in the
27 Cayman Islands, did not earn interest?
28 A. I have absolutely -- I never got any indication that
29 it was. He was doing me a favour.
29
1 197 Q. What did you think? What did you think? What is
2 your thought now about this?
3 A. Well, I am wiser now than I...(INTERJECTION).
4 198 Q. What do you think now?
5 A. Well, if I had a ton of money to invest now I would
6 want interest on it but in those days he was doing
7 me a favour.
8 199 Q. Yes. If you would just have a look at another
9 letter there (Exhibit 5)(Same Handed)?
10 A. Yes.
11 200 Q. It is the 1992 letter and it is to Mr. Redmond in
12 The Irish Intercontinental Bank. It is from
13 "Ansbacher" here in Dublin, 42 Fitzwilliam Square.
14 It is a letter to him stating:
15 "Could you please arrange to let me

have for collection a U.S. Dollar
16 cheque for US$2,315.00 payable to Ralph
Lindsay and debit the Sterling cost to
17 "Ansbacher"..."
18
19 That is your son Ralph?
20 A. Yes, that is one that was in college in America.
21 201 Q. This is in 1992 and you are drawing from the
22 "Ansbacher" account in IIB in this sum of $2,315?
23 A. Well, obviously it is from the same account in the
24 Cayman.
25 202 Q. Yes, yes. However, you have control of it and you
26 are directing that that sum be paid to you son?
27 A. Yes. All I ever had to do was just ring Mr. Traynor
28 and tell him that I wanted this money.
29 203 Q. Yes?
30
1 A. Its seem quite incredible now but I mean he would
2 even say, "What do you want it for?" you know.
3 204 Q. Yes. Did you do this frequently? Did you ask him
4 for money frequently?
5 A. No, infrequently.
6 205 Q. Infrequently?
7 A. As a matter of fact that sum that I sent, that I got
8 sent, to him when I was working in Bangladesh. I
9 was working for an American firm in Bangladesh
10 otherwise I wouldn't have got that money.
11 206 Q. Yes?
12 A. But as a matter of fact, you know, I certainly don't
13 remember that but I mean it is quite possible that
14 he wanted $2,000 for something or another.
15 207 Q. I want you to refer to one other document now,
16 Mr. Lindsay (Exhibit 6)(Same Handed)?
17 A. Yes.
18 208 Q. You see that this again a ledger account of
19 Guinness & Mahon Limited. Do you see, on the
20 left-hand side, that it is an account "Amiens
21 Limited." Then on the 31st October 1986
22 "J.H. Lindsay - £1,000 debit"?
23 A. Sorry, what is Amiens?
24 209 Q. I will tell you now in a moment?
25 A. Yes.
26 210 Q. What I want to suggest to you is that from
27 Amiens Limited it would appear that £1,000 was paid
28 to you in 1986?
29 A. I never heard of Amiens.
31
1 211 Q. Yes. I will come to that in a moment. However, do
2 you recall receiving a payment yourself of £1,000,
3 organised by Mr. Traynor?
4 A. I don't.
5 212 Q. You could have though? I mean it is a long time
6 ago?
7 A. I could have.
8 213 Q. You could have?
9 A. Yes.
10 214 Q. What Amiens Limited was, Mr. Lindsay, was an account
11 which Des Traynor, Mr. Desmond Traynor, operated?
12 A. Yes.
13 215 Q. He used this account by transfering from
14 "Ansbacher's" account in Guinness & Mahon into
15 Amiens and paying clients of "Ansbacher" out of the
16 Amiens. That is why I am asking you about this?
17 A. Yes.
18 216 Q. This was a payment to you. This would appear to be
19 a payment to you organised by Mr. Traynor of £1,000?
20 A. If it is there it must have happened but I
21 can't...(INTERJECTION).
23 A. I mean £1,000, it wouldn't be the sort of sum that I
24 would be going to Des Traynor really looking for,
25 you know.
26 218 Q. Yes?
27 A. Unless it was like in America where if I wanted
28 monies sent to Ralph or to my daughter and that.
29 219 Q. You would have obtained it?
32
1 A. Yes .
2 220 Q. And you would have sent it?
3 A. Yes .
4 221 Q. Mr. Lindsay, what we have been doing is breaking for
5 a short time for a coffee break?
6 A. Yes .
7 222 Q. What I would suggest is that we break for about ten
8 minutes now and you can have a cup of coffee if you
9 would like it?
10 A. Thank you.
11 223 Q. We have not got very much more to ask you. However,
12 if we could come back in ten minutes.
13 A. Yes .
14
16
17 224 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, we will
18 resume our interview now.
19 I understand, Mr. Hayes, that you would like to
20 clarify something with us?
21 MR. HAYES: Indeed if I may Inspector?
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.
23 MR. HAYES: Well, it is entirely our
24 fault because we have not
25 given you a written statement as we should have.
27 MR. HAYES: We will rectify that.
29 MR. HAYES: I only came into it

1 recently on that aspect.
3 MR. HAYES: However, from hearing
4 these questions -- I mean
5 I think there is one aspect that does need to be
6 clarified.
8 MR. HAYES: And it is this.
10 MR. HAYES: That, and I am authorized
11 by Mr. Lindsay to say
12 this, from the very start of his involvement with
13 Mr. Traynor and "Ansbacher" -- sorry, Guinness &
14 Mahon which became "Ansbacher" and so forth, that
15 was entirely a business affair, if I might put it as
16 such.
18 MR. HAYES: Up to the time when the
19 business ceased and
20 Mr. Lindsay moved to Bangladesh.
22 MR. HAYES: Unfortunately,
23 Mr. Lindsay's grasp of
24 dates is -- we will have to check records and try
25 and get the exact dates but all of the dealings with
26 Mr. Traynor were to do with his companies, which
27 were Super Ser...(INTERJECTION)
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I do not want to interrupt
29 you Mr. Hayes.
34
1 MR. HAYES: Yes.
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we have put
3 certain documents to
4 Mr. Lindsay which gives certain dates.
5 MR. HAYES: Yes.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I do not think it would be
7 appropriate for you to be
8 giving us evidence that your client may have told
9 you about. We have to go on the evidence that the
10 witness gives us.
11 MR. HAYES: Yes.
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And if he cannot remember
13 we take that into account.
14 MR. HAYES: Yes.
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, it would help us
16 if you could get a
17 detailed statement, if he could prepare a detailed
18 statement.
19 MR. HAYES: Yes, we will do that.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. Also it would help
21 us if he would get the
22 documents from his accountants because we would
23 require all the documents that the accountants have.
24 MR. HAYES: Yes. As I say I only came
25 into this fairly recently
26 myself. I will attend to that.
28 MR. HAYES: What I am trying to
29 achieve just here is the
35
1 background.
3 MR. HAYES: I do not want to give
4 evidence or anything like
5 that.
7 MR. HAYES: And the statement will
8 make it clear that his
9 dealings with the bank were of -- I mean I have seen
10 the documents and I have seen reference to him
11 personally and, of course, but there does seem to be
12 a confusion about that. It is that when it refers
13 to him it should really have referred
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is what you say.
16 However, we have to decide
17 that.
18 MR. HAYES: Obviously, yes. I just
19 wanted to make that point.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, I know. However, we
21 have the evidence that he
22 personally had money, that he gave money to
23 Mr. Traynor. He says he thought that it was
24 in 1986. It would seem to be earlier. However, the
25 actual dates may or may not be significant, we have
26 to wait. However, what is absolutely clear is that
27 at some point in time he had a personal account in
28 the Cayman Islands?
29 A. Yes.
36
1 MR. HAYES: However, may I just say?
3 MR. HAYES: You see in the statement
4 we will make it clear,
5 that in relation to this American business, that he
6 has sort of explained to you, an account was needed
7 to service that business. It was said to
8 Mr. Lindsay by Mr. Traynor that they would open that
9 account in the Cayman Islands and that that is how
10 the account came to be opened for that. I think
11 this is a point which has not been conveyed because
12 we have not given a statement.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Hayes, I know that you
14 are trying to clarify the
15 situation.
16 MR. HAYES: Yes.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we have to go on
18 the evidence that the
19 witness gives us.
20 MR. HAYES: Yes.
21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: At the moment I understand
22 that there was a
23 considerable amount of dealing with the company. We
24 have heard evidence that there was £400,000 lodged
25 by the company in the Cayman Islands.
26 MR. HAYES: Yes.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: What we are concerned with
28 today is Mr. Lindsay's own
29 personal dealings with the company. At the moment
37
1 the evidence establishes that he had personal
2 dealings and that is what I am concerned with today.
3 MR. HAYES: If I could just
4 make one final point?
6 MR. HAYES: When the company ceased to
7 trade, at that point,
8 unfortunately I cannot remember the year,
9 Mr. Lindsay went to Bangladesh.
11 MR. HAYES: And it was at that point
12 that he will say, in this
13 statement, that the personal dealings commenced
14 between himself and...(INTERJECTION).
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: He has said that already.
16 MR. HAYES: Yes. Then for five years
17 he was resident in
18 Bangladesh.
20 MR. HAYES: And as he has explained
21 remitting the monies,
22 which he earned there to Mr. Traynor.
24 MR. HAYES: I thought that that needed
25 clarity.
26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, very well. You can
27 get the matter clarified.
28 MR. HAYES: Yes.
29 225 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: There are only a few more
38
1 questions that I want to
2 ask you Mr. Lindsay?
3 A. Yes.
4 226 Q. When the money, that I have referred to, was
5 transferred to your son in Barcelona?
6 A. Yes.
7 227 Q. Did that close the account in Cayman?
8 A. Yes.
9 228 Q. You had no further dealings with it?
10 A. No, further at all, no.
11 229 Q. There was a substantial sum of money in the account?
12 A. Yes.
13 230 Q. At that stage?
14 A. Yes.
15 231 Q. Had you deposited money in the account from time to
16 time?
17 A. Continuously I would think, almost shipment by
18 shipment.
19 232 Q. In your own personal account?
20 A. Yes.
21 233 Q. I am talking about?
22 A. Shipment by shipment of carpets from Bangladesh.
23 234 Q. In your own personal account, the money you gave to
24 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Traynor put it into the Cayman
25 account?
26 A. Yes.
27 235 Q. That lasted for some years?
28 A. Yes.
29 236 Q. You came back to Ireland then, is that right?
39
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 237 Q. What I wish to know is, did you thereafter deposit
3 money?
4 A. No, not a penny.
5 238 Q. All the money that was in the Cayman came from a?
6 A. Yes.
7 239 Q. From a source in Bangladesh?
8 A. From earnings in Bangladesh.
9 240 Q. In Bangladesh?
10 A. Yes.
11 241 Q. You will tell us the date on which that occurred?
12 You will find this out from your records?
13 A. Yes, I will. A date as regards from what year to
14 what year and so forth.
15 242 Q. Approximately what are we talking about?
16 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).
17 243 Q. Are we talking about...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Five years about.
19 244 Q. However, in the 1980s or 1970s?
20 A. No, no, I wasn't in -- it would have been in
21 the 1980s.
22 245 Q. In the 1980s. Perhaps, I might get it this way:
23 You set up Super Ser?
24 A. Yes. Incidently that was the name of the
25 Spanish company.
26 246 Q. Yes. Super Ser Limited?
27 A. Yes.
28 247 Q. It was incorporated in Ireland?
29 A. Yes.
40
1 248 Q. Your partner in that, a 50% shareholder, with you
2 was Mr. Goosen?
3 A. Yes.
4 249 Q. When did that company cease to carry on trade?
5 A. 1982/1983, was it?
6 250 Q. Early 1980s you think?
7 A. Yes.
8 251 Q. Was it then that you went to Bangladesh?
9 A. Yes.
10 252 Q. When you returned after five years what business
11 activity did you undertake then?
12 A. Well, you see all the time in the background, from
13 my grandfather's time, we had a motorcycle shop
14 in Ship Street.
15 253 Q. Yes?
16 A. And all the time that was ticking over but I mean it
17 made virtually no money.
18 254 Q. Yes?
19 A. And I had a man looking after that while I was away.
20 255 Q. When you can back what did you do?
21 A. When I came back I went back into that.
22 256 Q. Yes?
23 A. That is it and then it packed up.
24 257 Q. What did you do then?
25 A. Then I retired. I mean that was -- I was getting on
26 then.
27 258 Q. When did Ardant Limited establish and your factory
28 establish making these heaters?
29 A. It would have been maybe 1980, would it? 1978 or
41
1 1980.
2 259 Q. How long did that company operate for?
3 A. Well, the main operation of that company quickly
4 became the America operation.
5 260 Q. Was there a separate company established in
6 the United States?
7 A. Yes.
8 2 61 Q. Do you remember the name of that company?
9 A. I know the heaters were called Shamrocks. Possibly
10 it was called Ardant.
11 262 Q. Would your accountants know?
12 A. Maybe, maybe. Certainly the man who was our
13 manager, the man who looked after it, he would know.
15 A. John Grace.
16 264 Q. John Grace?
17 A. A further complication there. He spoke perfect
18 English. He came from Gibralter. His real name I
19 believe is Quan Gracias.
20 265 Q. Yes?
21 A. But everybody called him John Grace.
22 266 Q. Where is he now? Where is Mr. Grace now?
23 A. Well, I haven't spoken to him for a few years but he
24 lived in Norfolk, Virginia.
25 267 Q. In Virginia?
26 A. Yes.
27 268 Q. Very well then. If you would like to consider what
28 we were saying today?
29 A. Yes.
42
1 269 Q. And you could make a further statement then and
2 obtain all the documents that you can from them?
3 A. Yes.
4 270 Q. It is not a question of getting a selection of
5 documents, it is all the documents, that your
6 solicitors might have in relation to your own
8 A. Yes.
9 271 Q. There is one final matter that I want to ask you
10 about. It does appear that Super Ser, from what you
11 tell us, ceased to carry on business?
12 A. Yes.
13 272 Q. There are very substantial sums of money that
14 Super Ser apparently had on deposit?
15 A. Yes.
16 273 Q. $400,000 according to this document?
17 A. Yes.
18 274 Q. What became of the funds?
19 A. It disappeared like that in so much as when -- we
20 had endless orders. We took a half an hour on
21 American television with, you know, people talking
22 about the...(INTERJECTION).
23 275 Q. I am not talking about the American company. I am
24 talking about the Irish company?
25 A. Yes.
26 276 Q. That had very substantial sums on deposits?
27 A. Yes.
28 277 Q. Of $400,000 in "Ansbacher"?
29 A. Yes.
43
1 278 Q. In Cayman?
2 A. Yes.
3 27 9 Q. And substantial sums in London and in New York?
4 A. Yes.
5 280 Q. Or in America?
6 A. Yes.
7 281 Q. What became of the funds?
8 A. Yes, just -- may I just sort to get to that?
9 282 Q. Yes?
10 A. We had the orders. So, we got big loans from
11 Guinness & Mahon to service this American market.
12 We got big loans and then suddenly it was stopped
13 like that. It just stopped and Guinness & Mahon
14 took everything. They just took it like that.
15 283 Q. Then it was Super Ser that you say were servicing
16 the American market? The Irish company here?
17 A. Yes -- no, no, the money came from England.
18 284 Q. Yes?
19 A. Because they had the majority of the money.
20 285 Q. You are going to tell us when Super Ser ceased
21 trading? However, it does appear from the records
22 we have that Super Ser was a client of "Ansbacher"
23 and we would have to investigate Super Ser?
24 A. Yes.
25 286 Q. Apart from you is there anybody else that can assist
26 us in relation to Super Ser and its accounts and its
27 dealings with "Ansbacher"?
28 A. I don't even know -- I mean I am surprised when I
29 saw that there. I think that our (inaudible) with
44
1 Guinness & Mahon more or less coincided -- I
2 remember Mr. Traynor told me one day, he said, "I
3 have sold a bank in Cayman to a South African
4 company" which I haven't heard mentioned since.
5 287 Q. Yes?
6 A. And that, I think, was one of your last meetings.
7 288 Q. No. I am asking you about Super Ser, Mr. Lindsay.
8 What about Mr. Goosen? Where is he?
9 A. He lives in England.
10 289 Q. Yes?
11 A. He and I had a big disagreement about it. He didn't
12 want to go to America and events proved him right.
13 290 Q. Is there anybody else that can help us about the
14 Super Ser company apart from yourself? Did you have
15 accountants? Did Haughey Boland look after you?
16 A. Yes .
17 291 Q. Would you ask your accountants for any records that
18 they have in relation to Super Ser?
19 A. Yes .
20 292 Q. And in particular in relation to the deposits that
21 Super Ser had in the Cayman Islands?
22 A. Yes, certainly.
23 293 Q. Very well then?
24 A. May I add?
25 294 Q. Yes?
26 A. It seems an incredible naive approach to things now
27 but I was trained as a fitter and turner and for me
28 to make something that people in America would buy
29 in colossal numbers was a dream.

1 295 Q. Yes?
2 A. And when it just shut down like that and
3 Guinness & Mahon took all the money I didn't even
4 want to bloody know whether we owed them money or
5 whether they owed us money.
6 296 Q. Yes. Very well. Thank you for your assistance
7 Mr. Lindsay. We can look at the situation again
8 then in the light of the documents?
9 A. Yes.
10 297 Q. That you sent on to us?
11 A. Yes. All right.
12 298 Q. Thank you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 MR. HAYES: Thank you.
15
16 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
46
VVc^nv^ GujfVv>oL/<u
ô^caVOC*
Super Ser/H. Lindsay - £1.336.023
Super Ser H a l t e d - £1.179,486
Purpose: Working Capital and a t i l l discounting f a c i l i t y .
Security: (a) Super Ser Limited has deposits of around £400,000 with
Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Limited..
(b) The company has deposits with Guinness 1 Mahon, Dublin o f

around £790,000.
(c) The company placed U.S. Dollars 4 million on deposit with

Guinness & Mahon, Dublin. This deposit has been
transferred to the parent office 1n London. The Dublin
office has a lien on these funds (around £2.1 m i l l i o n ) as
rnmmUlf Â* •hi. Injln
G RI M E S
;<H\A3 C/L04/MSPM
L002S6.17
PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL

The Inspectors,
Third Floor, Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin 3 December, 2001
RE: HARRY LINDSAY AND SUPER SER LIMITED
Dear Sirs,
With reference to your letter of the 7 t h November, our Client was never informed by
the Post Office that these letters from you were available for his collection.
With reference to your "Preliminary Conclusions", Mr. Lindsay did acknowledge in

the course of his examination before the Inspectors that he was indeed a Client of
Ansbacher and, as a Director of Super Ser Limited, that that Company also was a
Client of Ansbacher. He would however like to make the point that at that time, there
was no suggestion of any impropriety in being a customer of that Bank. It is only in
recent years that evidence has emerged in the public domain which, as you put it in
your letter, "justifies findings and/or inferences that you may consider to be adverse
to your interests, good name and/or reputation".
Our Client was introduced to this Institution, in the manner he has described in his
evidence to you, by Mr. Traynor, and was not aware of anything at all improper in his
conducting the business that he did conduct at that time with Mr. Traynor.
i/
Y6uFs4aithful!y;
X. ,. v
GORE & G'RIMETS-
L00296/17/7102LE-1 .LET
Appendix XV (124) Mr & Mrs Peter Tamburo
& Mrs Peter Tamburo.
a) Letter of 9 May 1974 - GMCT to Mr Peter Tamburo.
b) Letter of 23 December 1981 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.

o
A Mambar of th« Gulnnm Mahon Marehont Sinking Group
Talaphono No 8—6293/4 P. O. Box 887
Talax CP 308 Qrand Cayman

Brttlth Watt tndtoa
Cabla A«Sdr«u Gulnnaw
9th May, 1974
your n f
our rot JAFsee
/•v gawMB t aasewBanxL
Vetoe A. Tanfauro, Esq.

2520 Dellago Drive
Fbrt Lauderdale, Florida
U. S. A.
• Dear Pete,
Followlogrfllwcnsylnnewhich I had with Dea whilst he was in Cayman,

I have arranged to farm a ooqpany, Windsor Securities Limited, and
a Trust on your behalf. Enclosed are copies of the MnoEandum and
Articles of Association of the canpany, together with a espy of the
Certificate of Inoarparatiaa and a copy of the Trust Deed, Deed of
Appointment and Latter of Wishes, all of which I have executed.
>
Bather than dwell at length on an explanation of each dnuuwmt I

r^ have sent copies of everything to Sea with a covering letter and
^V---, I am sure that when next in Fort Lauflerflnle he will explain the
.7 set-up to jou. Should either John or I see you prior to your next
visit from Des then we will of course be only too happy to explain
the situation, in full.
Best wishes,
Yours sincerely.
JOHN A. FURZE
ends
r»
i T
r
1
^ iff/2, g-cr
GUINNE5S MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Mambaf of tha Guinmu Mahon Marehtnt Banking Qreup
TrfaphonaN. 9 4MJ4 ««"
Qr,n,i
•K CP aos Cayman
CablaMdraaa Ouinnaw BrW.h WMt India.
your raf
our raf
D e c e m b e r 23» 1981
JAF/rab
s
Guinness & Mahon Ltd.
17 College Green
Dublin 2
Ireland
Attention: Peter Keane
Dear Sirs:
RE: WINDSOR SECURITIES LTD.
We act as managing agents for the above company which
is registered in the Cayman Islands.
The shares which were recently acquired In TUNNEL HOLDINGS
LTD. were purchased In the name of Overseas Nominees Limited
and are held beneficially for the above company.
We confirm that the ultimate beneficial owners of the
equity of Windsor Securities Ltd. are Mr. & Mrs. Peter
A. Tamhurn, both of whom are United States citizens wv*.
residents.
Yours Lithfully
JOHN A./FURZE
ManagLog Director
T
Appendix XV (125) Mr Kazuaki Tazaki
Kazuaki Tazaki.
a) Letter of 16 June 1983 - JD Traynor to Mr Kazuaki Tazaki.
b) GMCT external call deposit statement of 15 June 1983.
c) GMCT external call deposit statement of 30 April 1983.
d) GMCT external call deposit statement of 31 January 1983.
e) Letter of 11 June 1985 - JD Traynor to Mr Kazuaki Tazaki.
f) Letter of 12 September 1988 - JD Traynor to Mr Kazuaki Tazaki.
g) Letter of 17 October 1988 - Mr Kazuaki Tazaki to JD Traynor.

121 J UN 1983
& 17, COLLEGE GREEN,
• D U B U
^
PERSONAL 16th June, 1983.
K. Tazaki, Esq.,
Brother International Europe Ltd.,
Shepley Street, •
Guide Bridge,
Audenshaw,
MANCHESTER. M34 5JD.
Dear Kaye,
Further to our recent discussions I have, pleasure in
attaching hereto copy Statement for A/J showing a balance.of
£28,857.18 as advised in our recent 'phone call.
Ike position on the Titan Investments Limited Dollar
Account is as follows:-
Balance as at 16/6/1981 $13,201.99
Add: Interest from 16/6/81 - 16/12/81 1,090.53
Interest from 16/12/81 - 16/ 6/82 993.32
Interest from 16/ 6/82 - 16/12/82 1.116.99 3.20Q.84
516,402.83
With kindest regards,
Tours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
\ : • • •.-I---- 7 < •- - ••
^ . . " ' '• .-.'.ri . ••».•: i"
A/J G U I N N E S S MAHQN C A Y M A N - . - l . ' ^ i.: .1 0 _ . ' • • - • v ri.-'- vv. > 1\. ..Ji .j-.-.r
TRUST LTD - • c ' - V * ' -
J . . .v..-. -VmbKCti -f —•«
STERL1HG . . •.--rf.-ryi.il.y—; J—. • . ..._962*2/32/.
•. /.••i-.V-.v"-"' •
EXTERNAL CALL
DEPOSIT . . . . . V..-'-.. . . .. '-1-5J
" t . ••
. . -Jtr hi? 1&7-' j... f- i ji

MAY83 BALANCE- BR0J6HT FORWARD .. ...23857.18..
••it,'. .ui'.K:
« • • v'm . ' '-riK • ^ -.,; - •'*'
•sl'*'^. Ji * • —^ t;
• •
Cz * •
u - -* - '-w'.i -jr iif • —* , - { v « i j , . • fit** **. 'i ...»

1 •• •• • - -v.
• . .*• *i . - «. ,i: f
Appendix XV (125) (l)(c)
) STATEMENT OF ACCOUNT W I T H * *
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED?;,

P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British Wist Indlat Telephone No B - 4 8 9 3 / 4
ACCOUNT A/J G U I N N E S S MAHON CjAYHAN
. Talax CP 306 Cablt Address Gulnnass .•
' NAME TRUST LTD
CURRENCY STERLING ACCOUNT NUMBER

96242/0271
ACCOUNT
DESCRIPTION
eXTfRNAI.
DEPOSIT
CA(.U '
LEPGER STATEMENT DATE 30APR83
PARTICULARS VALUE DATE DEBIT CREDIT BALANCE
183 B A L A N C E BROUGHT TORWARD 28,125.: M — . '

R83 H A T E CHANGF 0.00 26*125i»lT~S
RB3 INTEREST 731.27 857,3
•• •
STATEMENT OF ACCOUNT WITH JK
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED • ^

P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British Watt India* Talaphona No 9-4653/4
ACCOUNT A/J GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN Talax CP 306 Cabte Addran Qulnnan • ••>:
NAME TRUST LTO
CURRENCY STERLING ACCOUNT NUMBER 96242/02/16
-1
ACCOUNT
DESCRIPTION
EXltRNAL
PEP0S1T
CALL
LEDGER STATEMENT OATS
31JANR3
PARTICULARS VALUE DATE DEBIT CREDIT BALANCE
12. BALANCE DROUGHT FORWARD

1(3 RATE CHANGE 31DtC82 0.00 27#47.8.84
13 I N T E R E S T 647.07 28,125.91
t
PLEASE NOTE
OUR NEW
TELEPHONE NO.
796944
/
17, COLLEGE GREEN,
DUBLIN, 2.
PERSONAL 11th June, 1985.

K. Tazaki, Esq.,
Shepley Street,
Guide Bridge,
Audenshaw,
MANCHESTER M34 5JD.
Dear Kaye,
On the Tftth 'Tnn9 iL9fl? T wivlnifni that the balance
on G.M.C.T. A/J Deposit Account was Stg.£28,857.18.
This is just to advise you that the balance on the Account
as at 29th March 1985 amounted to Stg. £34.477:35.^ the only
entries in the intervening period being additions for
interest.
In ay letter of thn 17th iTnnn IPflfl I advised that
the balance on the Titan Investments Deposit • amounted to
D.S.IlTr, 175.07. Since that time the only adjustments
have been additions of interest and the Deposit now stands
at t t .y j o f ^ r v a q n \ras placed 'to mature on 18th June
1985 it 9§% p.a.
JDT/AJW
\ /
/
{
T«L 786881/783048 19 LOWER PEMBROKE STREET.

T«J«c 83440
FacsMte 613035 DUBLIN 2.
PERSONAL .. 12th September, 1988.
K. Tazaki, Esq.,
Shepley Street,
Guide Bridge,
Audenshaw,
MANCHESTER M34 5JD.•
Dear Kaye,
I an very pleased to confirm that Henry Ansbacher
Holdings PLC has acquired 75% of Guinness Mahon Cayman
Trust Limited with Management holding the remaining 25%.
Attached hereto is a copy of the formal
announcement made in Cayman. Yo<u will note John Collins
and John Furze continue as JointManaging Directors and I
shall continue as Non-Executive\rfiairman. There is no'
connection with the Irish Bank.
Should you have any queries, please let me know.
Kindest regards,
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
Ansbacher Limited
A Member of the Henry Ansbacher Holdings PLC Merchant Banking Croup
P.O. Box 887. 'Vnd Cayman. Britiih Wi»r Mi-

Phone: (809) 949-463J/4
Telex: CP 4305
Fax: (809) 949-7946
(809) 949-5267
Acquisition by Henry Ansbacher Holdings PLC
Henry Ansbacher Holdings PLC announces that It has Mr. John Button, Chairman of Ansbacher (C. I.) Limited,
acquired control of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust die Guernsey Bank & Trust Company, and a member of
/•Niited, die well known local "A" Licensed Bank and the Board of Henry Ansbacher & Co. Limited will also
jst Company formerly a subsidiary of Guinness 1 joitf
m die Board.
Holdings PLC, which was incorporated in 1971.
vSrT
r. Des Traynor will continue as Nonexecutive
Guinness Mahon will now be renamed Ansbacher Limited Chairman.
and will continue to offer die same range of banking and
trustseryices concentrating on the Private Banking image
with the personal service which has been so much a part Henry Ansbacher is a London Merchant Bank established
of its previous success. in 1894 with a strong capital base and with its principal
shareholders and group associations it has a wide spread
of close contacts with major financial institutions which
It currently manages a large volume of trusts and offshore augers well for the future operations of the Cayman
companies and as at 30th June 1988 had total banking company. Henry Ansbacher Holdings PLC is quoted on
assets of £114 million (US$193,800,000). the Stock Exchange of the United Kingdom. Some of its
major shareholders include Group Bruxelles Lambert
S.A., Pargesa Holding S.A., Banque Internationale a
A capital reorganisation has resulted in the capital base Luxembourg S.A. and the Public Institution for Social
of Ansbacher Limited,, the Cayman company, being Security of die Government of Kuwait. In addition to its
brought up to £6.5 million (US$11,050,000). interest in Ansbacher, Pargesa Holding S.A. has extensive
interests in financial service companies, including, inter
alia, Drexel Burnham Lambert Group Inc., Banque
. nry Ansbacher Holdings has a significant offshore Trust Bruxelles Lambert S.A., Banque Internationale a
a tanking group with subsidiaries in Guernsey, Luxembourg S.A., Banque de Gestiori Privee - SIB,
C .lcar and Monaco, whilst its principal shareholders Banque Paribas (Suisse) S.A.
have very substantial operations in Switzerland and
Luxembourg. It is envisaged that Cayman will enhance
and complement these ^wrarions. John Collins and John Furze expressed their delight that
Ansbacher have recognised the proud position Cayman
occupies in thac Offshore Financial scene and for Wanting
John Collins and John Furze, the Joint Managing to be a part of it, and agreeing to commit their capital and
Directors, have both entered into new 5 year service resources to the development of Ansbacher Limited in
contracts with Ansbacher Limited. Both are very well Cayman.
known on the local scene and have been in Cayman since
che middle 60's when the Financial Industry was in its
infancy. They have both been with the present company Caymanians will soon have to become accustomed to the
since its inception in 1971. landmark Ouinness Mahon Building changing its name
to Ansbacher House but otherwise it will be business as
Mr. Richard Fenhalls, the Chairman of Henry Ansbacher usual. For all the staff a short period of uncertainty has
&Co. Limited will join fhe Board. Mr. Fenhalls formerly been resotved with the advent of Ansbacher to Cayman.
had a close association with the company here when he
w Dhief Executive of che Guinness Mahon Group in
I on.
T T
r
f»7. •
PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL
Our R e f t IT/AJ.
Mr. J » D , T r a y n o r ,
19* Lower Pembroke Street*
Dnblln.2*
Southern Ireland. 17th October* 1988.
Dear Des*
•• • t;
.•»•'} t
Thank yon for your, l e t t e r of the 12th September I : haVe -
J u s t reed a s I have .bees avay for a long time to eifioy myself ;
;
watching- the Olympics . and a l e e lookina a f t e r Tnr.nH..
Hope " E v e r y t h i n g la!W*ll^Vfjo«5»a« joirtfamily'.:.&W.
Tours s i n c e r e l y , V""'..
BROTHER INTERNATIONAL EUROPE L T D .
K TAZAKI
CBAIBHAH/MAHA6IH0 DIRECTOR.
Appendix XV (126) Ms Carmel Traynor
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Ms
Carmel Traynor.
a) Statement of Ms Carmel Traynor dated 18 July 2001.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Ms Carmel Traynor.
a) Statement of Ms Carmel Traynor dated 30 November 2001.

SI «»
STATEMENT OF C A R M E L TRAYNOR
I have read the letter of 28 June 2001from the Inspectors, under Ref.: C/T14/NSPM
and also the documentation which accompanied the letter.
As far as I am aware there were only two transactions in which I had any involvement
and I am setting out in this Statement, to the best of my ability, the relevant details.
FirjtTrangacjfrn
On the 19th February 1975 my father died and in May 1975 the family home was sold.
I was the sole beneficiary under my father's Will and after the estate was settled I had
a sum of just c« 1A£2,000 for investment. My brother, Desmond Traynor, took this
luuiicy and saiu Lc would put it on deposit fvu iuv. i uiu uut have tc sign anything and
did not receive any documentation or account number. None of this concerned me as
Des was my brother and once he was there to look after things I was quite happy. At
that time he was with Guinness & Mahon Limited. The investment was not short
term, but rather for "sometimeout there in the future" in case I needed it.
Des died in May 1994 and some short time later, possibly in June 1994,1 asked my
brother John for help to close the deposit account As long as Des was alive I was not
concerned but when he died I felt that I would prefer to close the account. My brother
John made enquiries and he subsequently told me that he had telephoned a Mr.
Padraig Collery who promised to look after the matter. A short time later John called
to my home and passed to me the money which he had receivedfrom Mr. Collery. I
cannot be absolutely certain but I believe the sum was about IR£13,000.
Regarding the deposit account itself I can truthfully say that I was never told, never
knew and still do not know where the account was held or with which Bank. As
already stated I did not have to sign anything and had no documentation or account
number. Other than the initial sum which Des took to put on deposit for me and the
final withdrawal on the closing of the account, there were no further lodgements or
withdrawals made by me. Woe it not for the fact that I was Des's sister there would
possibly have been moreformality involved.
Sreppfl T r q m a c t i g n
I believe it was in January 1995 that I received a letterfrom a bank based in the
Cayman Islands enclosing a cheque in my favour for £15,000 Sterling. Unfortunately
I have been unable tofind the letter and I cannot remember the name of the bank but I
do recall that the letter was signed by John Furze. This letter stated that the cheque
enclosed represented a distribution payment initiated by the Trustees. Who the
Trustees were or what they were Trustees of, I have no idea. The letter came as a
complete surprise to me. I did hot reply to the letter and received no further
correspondence.
I spoke to my brother, John regarding the situation and he again contacted Mr. Collery
who arranged to have the cheque cashed for me. From memory the sum of money I
received was approximately IR£15,150.
I have tried to set out in this Statement the facts as I recall them, covering the only
two transactions in which I had any involvement. The only document which I had at
any time and which might have proved helpful to you was the letterfrom the bank in
the Cayman Islands but unfortunately I could not locate It. I would like to confirm
n
-3-
that to the best my knowledge and belief I have not at any time established a trust,
been involved in any trust, as a trustee or otherwise, nor have I given any permission
verbally or in writing for any person or body corporate to use my name for any such
purpose.
I do not think that I can add anything further.
Dated the 2001
Signed:
Carmel Traynor O
63 St Annes
Kimmage Road West
Dublin 12
TO THE INSPECTORS APPOINTED BY ORDER OF
THE HIGH COURT TO ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LTD.
REF. NO. C/T16/NSPM
STATEMENT OF CARMEL TRAYNOR
I have received your letter of the 16th November, 2001, together with the documents attached
thereto, and I was surprised to learn of your preliminary conclusion that I was a client of
Ansbacher.
When submitting my Statement to you on the 18 th July 2001 1 set out fully all information that
was available to me at that time regarding the account in question. Everything I said in that
Statement still stands.
While I knew that my brother was a banker with Guinness & Mahon I knew nothing of
Ansbacher. To state that I was a client of Ansbacher seems harsh when one considers that I
did not open the account with Ansbacher, I did not sign any document authorising Ansbacher
to open an account in my name, and I was not even aware that the account was an Ansbacher
account until I received your letter and enclosures of the 16th November 2001.
Effectively you are saying that I was a client of Ansbacher without knowing that I was. How
can a person be a client of someone if they do not know it? I cannot follow your logic at all. I
was certainly never aware at any time that I was a client of Ansbacher and I feel that you
should state this positively.
I regret that I cannot agree with your conclusions for the reasons stated above.
DATED THE Oc -ci DAY OF Ul 2001.
SIGNED

Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 11

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Description:

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 11

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

THE HIGH COURT

REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

© Government of Ireland 2002

b) Letter of 21 December 2001 - Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh to the

c) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Padraig Collery dated 11 January

d) Transcript of evidence of cross-examination of Padraig Collery on behalf

MRS. SONIA ROGERS

ON TUESDAY, 15TH JANUARY 2002

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

The Inspectors: MS. N. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MRS. ROGERS

Represented by: MR. RICHARD LAW NESBITT SC

Instructed by: MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA

KENNEDY McGONAGLE BALLAGH

WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE

MRS. S. ROGERS MR. NESBITT 22 -

2 15TH JANUARY 2001:

6 MS. MACKEY: Good morning, Mrs. Rogers

7 and Gentlemen. We have

9 MRS. ROGERS: Yes.

10 MS. MACKEY: So, I do not think

12 myself but you have not met my colleague

13 Mr. Rowan. He was not here on the last

16 There are now four Inspectors as opposed to three

18 Sean O'Leary and Mr. Michael Cush, are not here

19 today. So, just the two of us will be listening

20 to your submissions but the others will have an

21 opportunity to read them when they are in transcript

22 and we will all consider them.

24 You are all very welcome and I understand that

25 today Mr. Nesbitt wants to make some submissions

26 on your behalf and that then you yourself want

27 to adduce new evidence. I think that is the

29 MR. NESBITT: Yes, yes. What we

2 permission, is that I will make one or two points

3 on the current state of affairs in relation to

4 your preliminary conclusions, indicate in broad

5 terms what we believe we have to say that may

6 or may not have an impact on those that we

7 believe is something that would be helpful to

8 you to know, and then with your permission I will

9 bring Mrs. Rogers through the evidence she has in

10 that regard, and obviously any questions you have

11 then will be asked and that would be what I would

13 MS. MACKEY: Yes.

14 MR. NESBITT: There are a series of

15 side issues which I will

16 highlight as I go through. They are just really

17 things to note at this point in time.

19 I do not know if you have available to you at

20 this time the preliminary conclusions that you

21 have drawn in respect of Mrs. Rogers. If you

22 do not have I will just go through them slowly.

23 MS. MACKEY: We have, yes.

24 MR. NESBITT: You very kindly set out

26 what I think is best described as the sort of

27 factual matrix from which your preliminary