THINKING ALLOWED

Conversations On The Leading Edge

Of Knowledge and Discovery
With Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove

Understanding Mythology
with Joseph Campbell

Jeffrey Mishlove: Hello and welcome. Our topic today is Understanding Mythology, and our
guest is perhaps the worlds foremost mythologist, Joseph Campbell, the author of The Hero with
a Thousand Faces, The Masks of God, and the Atlas of World Mythology. Welcome to the
program.
Joseph Campbell: Thank you.
Mishlove: Its a pleasure to have you here. In your approach to mythology, youve come to take
the view recently that mythology stems from the human body itself, from our own experiences
that every mythological story or experience comes from our experiences as human beings in a
physical body.
Campbell: Yes.
Mishlove: I would think that would be quite contrary to an earlier idea that mythology is pretty
much the product of fantasy or imagination.
Campbell: Fantasy and imagination is a product of the body. The energies that bring forth the
fantasies derive from the organs of the body. The organs of the body are the source of our life,
and of our intentions for life, and they conflict with each other. Among these organs, of course,
is the brain. And then you must think of the various impulses that dominate our life systemthe
erotic impulse; the impulse to conquer, conquest and all that; self preservation; and then certain
thoughts that have to do with ideals and things that are held up before us as aims worth living for
and giving life its value and so forth. All of these different forces come into conflict within us.
And the function of mythological imagery is to harmonize them, coordinate the energies of our
body, so that we will live a harmonious and fruitful life in accord with our society, and with the
new mystery that emerges with every new human beingnamely, what are the possibilities of
this particular human life? And mythology has to do with guiding usfirst, in relation to the
society and the whole world of nature, which is outside of us but also within us, because the
organs of our body are of nature; and then also, the guiding of the individual through the
inevitable stages of life, from childhood to maturity, and then on to the last gate. And this is
concerned with those matters.
Mishlove: So in a sense, behind every fantasy, behind every mythological story, there is some
type of deeper truth about life.
Campbell: Well, yes. A mythology is not just the fantasy of this, that, or another person; its a
systematized organization of fantasies in relation to the values of a given social order. So that
mythologies always derive from specific social environments. And when you realize that every
one of the early civilizations was based on a mythology, you can realize the force of this great,
great heritage that we have.
Mishlove: You point out in your most recent book, The Inner Reaches of Outer Space, that
were coming to a period in time where our society is becoming globalthat we cant think of
ourselves as a group of competing tribes any longer.
Campbell: This is a crucial problem today. Every mythologyand by mythology I include
religionsevery religion has grown up within a certain social order. And today these social
orders have come into collision with each other. All you have to do is look at whats going on in
the Near East now, and its a horror. There are the three major monotheistic religions of the
world, creating havoc. Ive been in Beirut; it was once a glorious, beautiful, darling little city,
and now its just hell, because each of these units of religion thinks it has all the values on its
side, and it doesnt know how to open up and recognize those are human beings also.
Mishlove: Their particular god is the one god, but its the only one.
Campbell: Weve given them three names, you know; you have Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
there. Theyre all right out of the same box. They cant get on together.
Mishlove: So what youre suggesting is that a lot of our social conflict results from the failure of
the leaders of these communities to properly understand the role of their mythologies.
Campbell: The role of their mythology has been to support their society. And theyre hanging
onto that. I think one could say there are two main types of mythology. There are mythologies
like that of the Biblical tradition, which have to do with coordinating the individual into a group.
He is a member of that group. He is baptized or circumcised or whatnot into that group. And that
is his realm of compassion and sympathy, and aggression he projects outside of that group.
Theres another kind of religion which grows out of the emotional life of the natural order. We
are nature beings, after all, not members of a society primarily. Such religions as the Dionysian
religions of ancient Greece; and Hinduism is full of this. And all the religions that have to do
with meditationtheyre coming over here from the Orient.
Mishlove: And I suppose the shamanistic traditions as well.
Campbell: Thats also inward. But the main thing for people today are these religions of
contemplation and meditationrecognizing within you the powers that are those of the gods.
You know, all the gods are simply projections of human potentialities. Theyre not out there.
Theyre in here. That word, The kingdom of heaven is within you, is a good word. And whos
in heaven? God is. So where is he? Look in here. You have two kinds of religionthat which is
addressed outward like that, and that which is turned inward, here.
Mishlove: Ive noticed, though, that the boundaries seem to be becoming more and more fuzzy
in todays world. For example, the TV evangelists all the time seem to be talking about God
speaking inside of them, and to the people in the viewers.
Campbell: Well, good for them. I havent heard them, and thats not the message Ive heard
when I have heard them. Ive heard them saying its in this bookyou know, the big black book.
Mishlove: Ive heard it in a funny context.
Campbell: Its certainly there, but not in the language that says its only for this group, or in this
group. Ive been interested all my life in what we might call comparative mythology. And you
see that what these people are saying in that language, these people are saying in this language,
and theyre getting mixed up, simply because their language is different. If you go into a bakery
shop and say you want pain, theyll say, Oh, we dont have that. But youre asking for bread,
which is what they have. And thats the way it is, across the lines. Now, I suppose one could say
the prime, great example is the contrasts and affinities of Buddhism and Christianity. The idea of
Buddha consciousness is that all beings are Buddha beings, and your whole function in
meditation and everything else is to find that Buddha consciousness within and live out of that,
instead of the interests of the eyes and ears. Do you understand what I mean?
Mishlove: Yes.
Campbell: These can distract us from our own true, deepest being and purpose. And the goal of
meditation is to find that inside, and then let that take control. Translate that into Christianity,
that is finding the Christ in you. And its exactly the same idea, and here they call it Christ
consciousness; there they call it Buddha consciousness. Well, the figures that represent the two
ideas are quite in contrast, in that the Buddhist imagery concentrates on the pacific aspect, you
might sayyou know, having found peace within and serenity. Whereas the Christian, with
Christ crucified, concentrates on the heroic attitude of living life which is tearing you apart, and
finding the one within you, in the midst of the turmoil of the world. You have that in Buddhism
also, in the idea of the Bodhisattvathe one who has found the eternal within himself, and
recognizes it in the world. And so they have a beautiful term: joyful participation in the sorrows
of the world. You accept the sorrows for yourself and for the world, in the realization of what the
radiance is that a well lived life can bring forth out of this. These are the same thingsone in the
active, you might say tragic, aspect, and the other in the serene, fulfilled aspect.
Mishlove: It would seem as if paying attention to myths in this sense really brings out many
subtle and deep emotions that we might not otherwise
Campbell: Oh, listen, the way this hits deep, you see it all over the place. Ive taught in a college
for thirty-eight years, and this is my subject. And Ive seen what it does. Students come in with
their religions, and then you let them know what the religions are really talking about, and boy,
something happens.
Mishlove: In your most recent book, The Inner Reaches of Outer Space, you seem to be
suggesting that all of our science, all of our astronomy for example, is our modern myth, and that
this too exists inside of us, the whole universe.
Campbell: I would say that all of our sciences are the material that has to be mythologized. A
mythology gives the spiritual importwhat one might call rather the psychological, inward
import, of the world of nature round about, as understood today. Theres no real conflict between
science and religion. Religion is the recognition of the deeper dimensions that the science reveals
to us. What is in conflict is the science of 2000 B.C., which is what you have in the Bible, and
the science of the twentieth century A.D. You have to disengage the messages of the Bible from
its science.
Mishlove: Scientific context.
Campbell: The context that science is out of. For instance, the theme that constantly occurs to
mein the Roman Catholic religion it is dogma to believe that Jesus rose from the dead and
ascended bodily to heaven, and that his mother, Mary, in sleep ascended to heaven. OK?
Mishlove: Ive seen it in television shows. They show him rising up.
Campbell: And you know that going at the speed of light they would not be out of the galaxy
yet. And you know what it means for a physical body to go up into the stratosphere.
Mishlove: So its a great mistake
Campbell: The image, the mythic image, does not fit the contemporary mind. So the message
cant get into the contemporary body. Youve got to translate these things into contemporary life
and experience. Mythology is a validation of experience, giving it its spiritual or psychological
dimension. And if you have a lot of things that you cant correlate with contemporary nature, you
cant handle it.
Mishlove: And I suppose one of the first things to go with modern science is the idea that the
gods and the heavens are somewhere out there in space.
Campbell: Of course theyre not. I mean, youve gotI think theyve got hundreds and
hundreds of galaxies now, and clusters of galaxies, and so forth, and every galaxy as great, and
some of them greater than our whole Milky Way, with our sun on the outskirts of one of these
my God, you know. So then God is particularly the one who thought of this whole thing. Of
course thats not the one in the Bible at all, because all he thought of was a three-layered
birthday cake.
Mishlove: And yet doesnt it seem that some of the Hindus have anticipated this universe?
Campbell: Oh, theyve got it, theyve got it, theyve got it. Not only that, but theyve got the
cycles of the coming into being of stars, and their going out in grandeur. Weve got a cosmic
cycle of aboutwhat would it be? About twelve thousand years. This is ridiculous.
Mishlove: The Hindus seemed to know that there were cycles within cycles, and gods within
gods.
Campbell: God knows how they found it out, but when you read the myths of the Puranas of
India, the Mahabharata, theres no problem correlating that with modern science, no problem at
all.
Mishlove: I have often wondered whether many of the myths of magical powers and the siddhis,
or the psychic powers that appear in myths, arent somehow evolutionary precursors of what we
might becomethat the myths are guiding us into our future.
Campbell: Well, insofar as they revealed potentialities of the human spirit, they are prophetic,
because I think the human spirit is developing. I dont take a negative attitude toward whats
happening with the human spirit. I take a very negative attitude with whats happening to our
politicians, but that has nothing to do with the human spirit. I mean, the chaos in the world today
is not a function of the illumination of humanity today; its a function of the bungling of a bunch
of self interested politicians.
Mishlove: Its ironic that as we seem to be getting in touch more as a culture with our deeper
powers, were also confronting deeper challenges.
Campbell: Thats right. And I think theyll probably work out.
Mishlove: One would have to assume though, if were to solve the problem thats confronting
the world today, that we will develop a new mythologythat the old myths are no longer
serving us in some sense.
Campbell: There are two things that have to happen if youre going to have a mythology thats
appropriate to man today. One is to take the world of nature as it is known, and my God, Ive
been hearing recently about some of the things that the physicists and astronomers are finding
out, and it is magical and incredible. Thats the ground. Its not difficult to turn that into a
mystical inspiration. And the second thing is to realize that the society with which you are
involved is not this group or that group, or this social class or that social class, or this race or that
race, but the planet. And we dont have a mythology for people recognizing the humanity of a
person on the other side of the tennis net. So itll come, itll come; but it isnt here.
Mishlove: Ive often wondered if some of the notions coming out of quantum physics, such as
quantum interconnectedness, dont express that.
Campbell: They do. You find all kinds of suggestions in the modern world of physics. And boy,
you can translate them right into Sanskrit without any trouble. The Hindus have the whole thing
already.
Mishlove: Yet there seem to be vast sections of our current culture that want to take the old
religious myths literally.
Campbell: Well, this is a disaster, and this is monstrousin whats going on today in the way of
illuminating the mind, to go back to something thats four thousand years out of date, in every
sense whatsoeverin the sense, in the first place, of realizing what humanity is. They had no
historical knowledge of anything but their own little corner of the Near Eastno knowledge of
the Americas, no knowledge of the Far East at all. And to pull back in that, I think its criminal.
Thats what I say.
Mishlove: And yet on the other hand, you pointed out as we started the interview that these
myths are based on our bodily experiences, and our bodies havent changed.
Campbell: They are, but they have been translated
Mishlove: Into the culture.
Campbell: -- into a local commitment. Thats the point, when I speak of comparative
mythology. This one sees it this way, this one sees it that way, but theyre all talking about bread.
Mishlove: Lets talk a little bit more, though, about some of the underlying unities that occur in
myth. For example, what are the common bodily experiences that we have to confront? I suppose
part of our existential reality here in the world is the same, regardless of culture.
Campbell: One existential reality is that of the mystery of birth. Thats more than a biological
phenomenon, believe me, the mystery of a new being coming in. And the nextevery culture,
everywhere, forever, has had to bring that little nature phenomenon into relationship to a society.
Thats where the problem comes: Into what society are you going to bring this nature
phenomenon? And the local myths stress youre coming into our society, our way. That wouldnt
be bad if the society didnt think of itself as the only one worth being incorporated in. Every
society has had to guide this little biological phenomenon through the inevitabilities of growth,
childhood, adolescence, then moving into marriageand this is something that right today is a
disaster, just because the mythology of marriage has been forgotten.
Mishlove: Could you expand that, what you mean by that?
Campbell: I will a little later. And then to move on from that to the release of yourself from
commitment to the world, and passing on then. And that isnt a loss, its a gain, when you realize
that youre gaining an inward life. I mean, death is not loss. All its losing is simply this passing
phenomenon of a body. But the consciousness is becoming more and more of itself. Proper
mythology tells you how to die.
Mishlove: And there are some universals there, arent there?
Campbell: Those are the universals. The problem of the relationship of this mortal, passing,
phenomenal vehicle of consciousness to the mystery of consciousness, and finding this more
enduring aspect of your life in yourselfthats what the religions are talking about. And they
personify that mysteryyou know, particularly in governing our lives, we have to have thoughts
that govern us, certain images that we can target to. And these images then become the end. The
Christ ideayou put that before you, and it helps you to move to this thing which transcends the
Christ idea. Do you understand what Im saying? The myth is this side of the truth, but it leads
you to it.
Mishlove: Its as if that Christ image is again one of these guiding images leading us into our
own future nature, so to speak.
Campbell: Yes, and think what else it does sociallynamely, the Christ image that is your life
is the life of everyone else too. And so this relieves you of your sense of special ego privilege.
Mishlove: And I suppose really understanding the myth is when Jews or Arabs or Hindus can
also appreciate that Christ essence within themselves.
Campbell: Yes, they have the counterparts in their own religions, and its a shame that that
aspect is not accented. What is accented is the local value, not the universal value of the image
that happens to be in the religious tradition.
Mishlove: One of the other trends within our culture, I suppose, is that individuals who see the
horror of the religious wars would have us do away with myths completely.
Campbell: Well, thats been the result. I mean, the word myth has come to mean liebecause it
is a lie to say that somebody has ascended to heaven. He hasnt. What is the connotation of that
metaphorical image? Thats a metaphor. And mythology is a compendium of metaphors. But
when you understand a metaphoryou know, just high school grammar languagewhen you
interpret the metaphor in terms of the denotation instead of the connotation, youve lost the
message. Thats like going into a restaurant and reading the menu and deciding what youre
going to eat, and you eat that part of the menu. The menu is a reference to something
transcendent of that piece of paper.
Mishlove: And I suppose, like a fine meal at a restaurant, when one really understands the
connotations, ones life becomes far richer. There are so many flavors and tastes.
Campbell: When you know what to order. You go in, youve been taught the message of this
mythology, you might say, and this set of metaphors, and you know what to order.
Mishlove: Ive had the sense from looking at your recent book, The Inner Reaches of Outer
Space, that what your study of world mythology has led you to become in many ways, is a
mystic.
Campbell: Well, Im not a mystic, in that I dont practice any austerities, and Ive never had a
mystical experience. So Im not a mystic. Im a scholar, and thats all. I remember when Alan
Watts one time asked me, Joe, what yoga do you practice? I said, I underline sentences. And
thats all Im doing. Im no guru or anything of the kind. Ive just had the great good fortune to
find this golden world of myth, and I was also well trained in how to write a book. And so all
Ive done is gather what has excited me into my books, and by God, it works for other people
just as well as it worked for me.
Mishlove: Theres this sense in your writing, though, it reminds me of Walt Whitman when he
talks about a leaf of grass.
Campbell: He had the revelation. Whitman was in that sense a real poet. Mythology is poetry. If
you read poetry as prose, what have you got?
Mishlove: Well, I dont want to add more to you than you wish to take credit for, but I have the
sense in reading your work that theres a wonder to every little thing in the universe, every grain
of sand, that kind of comes through in your own writing.
Campbell: I have a beautiful Muse who has inspired all this. I dont claim it.
Mishlove: Well, I think youre being very modest.
Campbell: Thats very kind of you.
Mishlove: What would you want to tell people todayyoung people, people who are coming
into this world, in a different phase of life? You who are now into your eighties and who have
gone through so muchis there anything you could say in a few minutes?
Campbell: How do you find the divine power in yourself? The word enthusiasm means filled
with a god, thats what it means. So what makes you enthusiastic? Follow it. Thats been my
advice to young people who ask me, What shall I do? I taught once in a boys prep school.
Thats the moment for young boysor it used to be; I dont know whats going on nowwhen
they had to decide their life courses. You know, where are they going? And theyre caught with
excitement. This one wants to study art, this one poetry, this one anthropology. But dad says
study law; thats where the money is. OK, thats the decision. And you know what my answer
would bewhere your enthusiasm is. So I have a little word: follow your bliss. The bliss is the
message of God to yourself. Thats where your life is. I remember when I was a student in Paris,
at the University of Paris. I was studying philologyhow Latin and vulgar Latin becomes
transformed into French and Spanish and Italian.
Mishlove: Its a good thing for you you dropped out of that, I suppose.
Campbell: Well, Ill tell you why. I was sitting in the little garden at the Musee de Cluny on
Boulevard Saint Germain, and I thought to myself, What use is all this knowledge to me, when I
dont even know how to order a decent meal? So I looked for the place where my bliss was,
where I felt my life was, and that academic thing dropped off.
Mishlove: Joseph Campbell, you certainly have managed to exemplify following your bliss, in
your life.
Campbell: Well, I tell you I have. And in the middle of the Depression, without a job for five
years, I was still following bliss.
Mishlove: Thank you very much for being with me.
Campbell: Its been a pleasure. Thank you very much.