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UNITED STATES SENATE
Select Committee on Ethics
Washington, D.C.
IN RE: ENSIGN INQUIRY
CONFIDENTIAL DEPOSITION OF
Tuesday, March 15, 2011
Hart Senate Office Building
Suite 220
REPORTED BY:

Deposition of called f o r
examination pursuant to notice of deposition, on
Tuesday, March 15, 2 011, i n Washington, DC, at the
Senate Select Committee on Ethics, Hart Senate
Office Building, Suite 220, at 10:48 a.m., before
a Notary Public w i t h i n and f o r the
D i s t r i c t of Columbia, when were present on behalf of
the respective parties:
ESQ.

Gates
1601 Street, NW
Washington, DC 20006-1600
202-778-9000
On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee
--continued--
SSCE0004078
APPEARANCES (continued)
ESQ.
ESQ.
ESQ.
United States Senate Select
Committee on Ethics
220 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 2 0510
202-224-2981
On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee
senate gov



--continued--
SSCE0004079
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APPEARANCES (continued)
United States Senate Select
Committee on Ethics
220 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510

On behalf Senate Ethics Committee
ESQ.
Las Vegas, Nevada 2 00 01

On Behalf of the Witness
SSCE0004080
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P R O C E E D I N G S
Whereupon,
was c a l l e d as a witness and, having f i r s t been duly
sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d as follows:
EXAMINATION


Q Good morning,
A Good morning.
Q Let's do some preliminary things. I'd
l i k e t o introduce myself. My name i s
I'm special counsel who was appointed by the
Senate Select Committee on Ethics to assist the
committee and advise the committee with respect t o
i t s i n v e s t i g a t i o n of matters concerning Senator John
Ensign.
To my l e f t -- I ' l l l e t you introduce
yourself.


Gates, working with special counsel.
Chief
Counsel and Staff Director of the committee.
counsel with the

counsel w i t h the

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counsel with
the committee.
BY
Q I see you've brought counsel of your own?
A
if you
introduce yourself for the record.
My name
licensed to practice law i n the state
of Nevada.
today to represent the witness,
Very well, welcome.
Q F i r s t I have some things to advise you of,
and that i s that the Senate Select
Committee on Ethics has summoned you here today f o r
deposition as a witness i n connection with the
SSCE0004082
7
1 committee's preliminary i n q u i r y concerning Senator
2 John Ensign.
Our questions and your answers w i l l be
recorded by the court reporter, and because t h i s i s
3
4
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5 a deposition before a l e g i s l a t i v e branch of
government, your statements today are to the
False Statements Statute, the federal
8 Statements Statute, which i s Section 1001 of
9 T i t l e XVIII of the United States Code.
A d d i t i o n a l l y , because t h i s i s a sworn
deposition, your statements are also subject to
penalty of perjury, both under Section of the
13 Procedural Rules of the Select
14 on Ethics, as well as Section 1621 of
T i t l e XVIII of the U.S. Code, as well as the
Obstruction of Statute, the Obstruction of
Congress Statute, which i s T i t l e X V I I I , USC Section
1505.
A l l of t h i s i s preliminary advice that we
give any witness who appears before us. We're not
s i n g l i n g you out f o r any purpose, other than to j u s t
make sure that you're well aware of the f a c t that
there are federal perjury and federal obstruction of
j u s t i c e statutes that apply to your testimony before
2 5 a l e g i s l a t i v e body here i n Washington.
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SSCE0004083
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Thus, you may not make any i n t e n t i o n a l l y
false statements or knowingly mislead the committee
through your answers today. Also, I want to l e t you
know about some rules regarding t h i s proceeding.
Supplementary Proceeding Rule 8 dictates s t r i c t
c o n f i d e n t i a l i t y on our part regarding the f a c t of
t h i s deposition, so not publishing you i n any
Congressional Record or any other Congressional
medium, or any medium.
And a l l our statements made here today are
being made under s t r i c t
This r u l e does not govern your own
discussions of t h i s interview, so i f you were to
walk out on the street and hold a press conference
about i t , we couldn't stop you from doing that.
But however, i t i s our expectation and our
hope that no witness w i l l t a i l o r or coordinate
statement w i t h any other witness i n t h i s proceeding,
so that your discussions w i l l be confined to
discussions w i t h counsel f o r your own benefit as a


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Therefore, we request, and we must say
t h i s ,

that you r e f r a i n from discussing our questions and
your answers w i t h anyone other than your attorney.
Do you understand that?
9
10
A Yes.
Additionally, pursuant to Supplementary
12
Procedural Rule 6, you are e n t i t l e d to the
opportunity t o inspect the t r a n s c r i p t - and t h i s i s
important. I've said i s important so
f a r , but t h i s i s i n your - d e f i n i t e l y i n your
i n t e r e s t , opportunity to inspect the t r a n s c r i p t of
your deposition i n the committee o f f i c e s here and
request that t r a n s c r i p t i o n errors be corrected.
Sometimes witnesses don't a v a i l themselves
of that opportunity, and then u l t i m a t e l y , i f the
t r a n s c r i p t does become public, they are
we understand, then,
would have to return to Washington and
review i t i n the office?
-SSCE0004085
10
Yes, absolutely,
2
probably take
4 advantage of that opportunity.
i n my experience, we
have court stenographers here, so there's usually no
t r a n s c r i p t i o n errors. But sometimes there are, a
misunderstanding of a word, syntax, the l i k e . And
sometimes, you know, the dropping of a or an
10 other q u a l i f i e r from a sentence by inadvertence
11 could r e s u l t i n an e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t answer than
12 you intended to give.
so i t ' s something you should take
14 advantage
THE WITNESS: When w i l l the t r a n s c r i p t be
16 available f o r inspection?
BY
17
Q Pretty soon, probably -- i f we could go
19 o f f the record.
(Discussion o f f the record.)
BY
20
21

A d d i t i o n a l l y -- or rather -- so you j u s t
2 3 l e t us know. Let us know through your attorney
24
25
26
whether you want to i t tomorrow or any time.
Finally, i f you want to take a break t h i s
-SSCE0004086
11
1 morning, please l e t us know. We would prefer i f you
d i d not take a break while a question i s pending, of
3 course, but i f f o r any personal reason you want t o
4 take a break or i f you want to consult with counsel,
5 then ask to take a break.
We are not t r y i n g to set any perjury traps
7 or t r i p anyone up i n our questioning here. I f you
don't understand a question, l e t us know and
9 we w i l l rephrase the question.
d o you understand a l l of this?
11 Yes.
i d e n t i f i e d . )

I'd now l i k e to show you what's been
15 marked f o r today as Exhibit And l e t ' s put the
date on the s t i c k e r as w e l l . And then I ' l l ask you
to review a copy of t h i s document, confirm t h a t i t
18 i s the notice that was sent to you for you t o
19 appear.



22 proceeding.
reviewed the document.)
THE WITNESS:
26

2 Q I f you could j u s t pass that back, thank
3 you.
4 You're welcome.



6 end, thank you.
BY

Q Why don't we s t a r t j u s t with a l i t t l e
9 background information. F i r s t of a l l , can you t e l l
10 us your date of b i r t h .
Q And where were you born, sir?
And what i s your educational
15 a f t e r high school?
Q From?
When was
Okay.


26
SSCE0004088
13
SSCE0004090
15
2 Q ' that there's no confusion, f i r s t of
3 a l l , you as a do you everything that
4 your counsel has j u s t said, with any exceptions?
7 Q . Okay. Thank you. But with that
8 correction, you adopt everything that j u s t
9 said?
10 A Yes.



fchere
'
s
here,
BY '

19



26

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A
Q
A
We do nothing on the Internet
Okay. A l l r i g h t .
can.
A I t would always be done on the phone.
On the phone, okay. A l l r i g h t .
A I t r y to avoid the branches whenever I
A l l r i g h t .
what context? I don't understand your

28
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1

Q Okay.
2
3
4
5
6
7
Correct.
9
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17
18 A Please.
19 Q
You don't have to answer that.
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MIIESSCE00041 05
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A
A
Q Okay.
A
Is that your question?
Yes, well --
30
IIIM-SSCE00041 06
31
IIIIII-SSCE00041 07
1
A
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guidelines?
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A
A
A
Okay. And so generally, what are the
1
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5
Okay.
6
8
A
Yes.
9
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: Okay.
12
THEWITNESS:
13
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BY
17
Okay.
18
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A
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A
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32
-SSCE00041 08
33
1

Okay.
2
3
A
Yes.
Okay.
A

Yes.
A
Yes. To the best of my knowledge.
Q
Okay.
SSCE00041 09
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2
3
4 A Yes.
5
6
7 A I don't know. Oh, in total?
8
9 A
10
11
12
13 A
14
15
16 Okay. Let's go through them, please. 11111
17
18 A
19
20
21
22 (Laughter.)
23 I'm sorry.
24 A
25
26
111111.-SSCE0004110
1

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay.
4
5

6 A
7
8

9 A There is.
10

11 Q All right.

12 A
13
14

15

A I don't know.

16

You don't know off the top of your head?

17

A Correct. I don't have them with me

18

either.

19

Q
And you don't have them with you.

20

A Correct.

21

Okay.

22 A
23

24
Q
25
26
35
SSCE0004111
1 A
2
3

4
A
5

6
A

I don't believe so.

7 Q
Okay.
8

9
A

10 Q
11

12 A San Francisco.
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A
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A
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19
A
20
21
A
22
23
A
24
25 Q
26
which --
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IIM-SSCE0004112
Okay.
1
A
2
3
Q Okay.
4
6
A
Correct.
7
8
A
Correct.
9
10 Q
Okay.
11
12
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
Okay. I'm sorry.
15
A
I believe that's the end of the list.
16
Q
All right.
17
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19
A Yes.
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A
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25
26
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-SSCE0004113
1
Q
You would know?
2
A
I should know.
3
4
Q
Okay.
5
A
6
Q
All right.
7
8
9
A
No.
10
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12
13
A
No.
14
Q
Okay.
15
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A
No.
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A
22
Q
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A
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26
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-SSCE0004114
4

Our communication is always verbal.

Is it verbal, almost always on the phone?

A Almost always on the phone.

8 Q Okay.
9
10

11 A
12

13
Q
Okay.

14 A
15
16

17
Q
And then you make --
18
19
20

21
Q
Okay.
22

23 A
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SSCE0004115
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2
3
A Correct.
4 THE WITNESS: Quarterly, yes.
5 BY
6
7
8 A Yes.
9
Q
10 A Yes.
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13 A Yes.
14
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19 A I believe that's correct.
20 I believe --
21 THE WITNESS:
22
23 BY
24
25 A
26
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SSCE0004116
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2
Okay. And so why don't you walk us
4

through what those would be.

5

A
6
7
8
10

Q Okay.
11
12
13
14
15

What are you referring to?

16
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18

A
19

Yes.
20

A
No, I don't have a copy with me.
21

(Exhibit
11112 identified.)
22

It's marked asI11-2.

23

BY
24

Q
All right.
25
26
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SSCE0004117
1 A Yes.
2
3
4
5
6
A
8
9

10

Q Okay.
11
12
13
14

15 A Yes.
16
17
18
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20
21

22 A Yes.
23
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1.111-SSCE0004118
1
A Yes.
2 Q
3
4
5
(Witness reviewed the document.)
6
A
7
8
Do you want me to continue looking for
9
others?
10
11
12
13
14
A No.
15 Q
Because you --
16
A
17
18 Q
Okay.
19
20
A Yes.
21
22
23
A
Correct.
24
Q
What does that mean?
25
A
26
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SSCE0004119
1
2
3
4

5 Q Okay. .1.111=1111..1
6
7
8
9

10 A Yes.

11 Q Okay.
12
13

14 A
15
16
17
18

19
Q
Because you understood --

20

A Correct.
21
22

23 A Correct. For example, lines 3 through --

24
Q
It's hard to read, but 16, 15, 14 --

25 probably 13?
26
44
-SSCE0004120
1
A
No, 12.
2
Q
3
A
4
when you're
5 '
referring to lines, you're speaking about the lines
6
on the far right side of ExhibitIII
-2?
7
THE WITNESS: Yes.
8
9
10
11
BY
12
Q
Okay.
13
A
14
15
A
Correct.
16
17
Q
Right, understood.
18
A
19
20
21
22
23
A
24
25
26
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-SSCE0004121
1
2 Q Okay.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14 A Yes.
15 Q
16
17 A Yes.
18 Q
19
20
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay.
23
24
25
26
A
Okay.
I-SSCE0004122
1

A
2

And then skipping down to line number 5,

4

5 A
6

7 A
8

9 A

10
Q
Okay.
11

12 A
13

14 A
15

16 Q
Okay. Then there's --
17

18 THE WITNESS:

19 BY

20
Q
I see.
21
22

23 A
24
25
26
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-SSCE0004123
A
Correct.
A
Correct.
A
Q
Okay.
A
Correct.
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A
I do not know.
Okay.
A
Okay.
Correct.
48
SSCE00041 24
1
2
3
4
5
6
Okay.
49
8
9
10

Correct.
11
12

A
Correct.
13
14

15

Q
Okay.

16

A
17

18

Q
Right.

19

20

Q
Right.
21
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25
26
IIIIIISSCE0004125
1
2

3
A
4
5
6
7
8

9
Q
But I didn't want to testify to that

10
effect. I was --

11
A Right.

12 Q
I'm asking you, so thank you.

13
A
14
15
16 Q
Your belief. Understood.
17
All right.
18
19
20
21
22
A Correct.
23
24
25
26
50
IMMI
SSCE0004126
1
2
3
4 A Either one of
those methods.
5 Q
Okay.
6
7
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16 A
17
Q Okay.
18 A
19
20
21 Q Okay.
22 A
23
24
25
26
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SSCE0004127
52
1
2
3

Q All right.
5
6
7

9 A
10
11

12 Q
Okay.
13
14
15
16
17
18

19 A
20
21

22 That's a good suggestion.

23

24 A Okay.
25
26
MillISSCE0004128
1
2
3 A Correct.
4
5
6
7
A
9
10
11
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13
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A I don't recall.
Q Okay.
A
I don't -- I don't recall.
Okay.
A No, I don'
Q Okay.
53
-SSCE00041 29
54
1

A
2
3
4
5
6

A
May we break so I can discuss with
counsel?
8
: Sure, absolutely. Absolutely.
9

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10
: Let's take a 10-minute break.
11

(Recess.)
12
: Go ahead. We're back on the
13

record now.
14

THE WITNESS: Thank you for the break.

15
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25
26
-SSCE00041 30
1
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3
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13
BY
14
If you would,
please.
15
A
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
55
IIIIM-SSCE0004131
1
2
3
Q
Right.
4
A
5
6
7
: Or less.
8
THE WITNESS: Or less.
9 BY
111111111
1:
10
11
group of papers there; correct?
12
13
14
15
Q
Okay. Why don't you -- could you hand
16
that to me?
17
A
Yes.
18
19
20
21
22
A
23 Q1111111111
111111111
24
A Right.
25
26
56
Okay. Now, you just talked about one
Yes.
-SSCE00041 32
1
2
Q Understood.
3
A
4
Q Understood.
5
6
8
A
9
10
11
A
Correct.
12
Q
All right. And I'm going --
13
A
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
A
If I had knowledge of it, yes.
24
Q
If you had knowledge of it, okay.
25
26
57
-SSCE00041 33
1
2
3
4
6
7 A Yes.
58
May I qualify that?

9
Q
Yes, please.

10 A
11
12
13

14 Q Understood.

15

III
-7. I know I'm skipping, but we have premarked
exhibits here. So I'm going to mark this as
for today's proceedings.
(Exhibit -7 identified.)
BY
And it appears as if --
: I could probably know this,
but what'll' stand for?
THE WITNESS:
-SSCE0004134
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
1
2
3
4
5
6

THE WITNESS: Of course.
: Thank you.
(Laughter.)
THE WITNESS: Please do.
59

8

BY
9
10
11
12
13
14
A
15
16
Q
Oh, I see, okay.
17
A
18
19
Q Understood.
20
21
22
23
A
I don't believe so.
24
Q
Well, we'll go along and if you think of
25
some more either that you've brought with you or
26
IIIII
SSCE00041 35
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
that you have back in
A
that would be helpful.
60

9 Q All right. Very good.

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21 A And if I may refer to those when they come

22 back from copying, I can answer your question.

23 Q
Very well. We'll do that.
24
25
26
M . SSCE00041 36
1
2
3
4
5
6
7 Q
8
A
6 1

9 A Correct.

10 Q
All right. Would you know?

11 A No.
12
13

14 A Correct.
15
16
17
18
19

20 A
21
22
23
24
25
26
-SSCE0004137
1
2
3
4
5
6
7

8
Q Okay.

9 A Thank you.

10 Q

11 A

12 Q That's 1133?

13 A Yes.

14 Q

15 A

16 Q
17
18
19

20 A
21
22
23

24 A

25 Q
And on the same
26
62
Q
All right. And on the same page, entry
number 27,

that would be
is that correct?
111.
SSCE00041 38
Okay.
1
page, entry number 37,
63
2
3
4
A
6
A
8
No.
BY
1145, I'm sorry.
1145.
I said -- I meant --
10
11
A
12 Q
Okay.
13
14
15
16
A
I don't know why.
17
Q Okay.
18
19
A
No.
20
Q
All right.
21
22
23
A
Yes.
24 Q
Can you tell us what they are?
25
A
26
SSCE00041 39
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26

Okay.
A

A
No, neither.
-SSCE0004140
A I don't recall.
I think we have them back for you. I'll
give you some time just to flip back through.
A
I'm going to stop you for a moment,
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
65
IMM-SSCE0004141
IM SSCE0004142
66
1
2
3 A Okay.
4
5
6 A It is.
7
9
10 A
11
12
13
14
15 That's where I was going.
16
17
18 A
19
20
21 Q Okay. All right. So going forward,
22 then -- backwards, actually.
23
24 A
25
26
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Do you wish me to continue going back?
Actually, I do.
A
Okay.
A lilliaM1111.111"111111111"111"11
A
67
-SSCE0004143

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26

A
68



Q

Understood.
A
Q
A
: No, no, that wasn't the
question.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
BY
Q
-SSCE0004144

1
2
THE WITNESS:
3
4
BY
5 Q
Okay.
6
A
I don't know that to be fact.
7
8
9
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
Okay. That's fine.
12
A
May I refer to --
13
Q
Sure.
14
A
15
16
17
18 Q
Okay.
19
A
20
21
22
23
24
25
A
Sure.
26
69
SSCE0004145
70
1
2
3
4 Q
And we'll have this marked --
5
6
We're happy to give that to you.
7
: I understand. Appreciate

8 that.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10

And we'll have this marked as

11

III 8
for today's proceedings.

12

(Exhibit-8 identified.)

13 BY

14 Q
Just so that we're clear, III-7,
15
16
17

A No.

18 Q
-- recently?
19

20 A
21
22
23
24
25 A
26
1111=-SSCE0004146
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
was helpful.
25
26
Q
We have to talk one at a time for
Go ahead.
A
Okay. Thank you.
A
You're welcome.
And that
71
1
2
3

Q
Right.
4

A
5
6

Gotcha.

8
: These were all kept in the

ordinary, normal course of

business.

10

THE WITNESS: Yes.

11

BY
12
13
14
SSCE0004147
1
2
3 A
4
5 A
6
7 A
8 Q Okay.
9
10 A
11
12
Q
Gotcha.
13
14 A Correct.
15
16
Q
Okay.
17 A
18
19
Q
Okay.
20
21
22 A Correct.
23
Q Please explain what that means.
24 A
25
26
IIIIMBSSCE0004148
Okay.

A Correct.
10
11
A
12 Q
Thank you.
13
A You're welcome.
14 Q
Okay.
15
16
17
A
18
Yes, sir.
19
A
20
21
22
23 Q
And I'm assuming --
tell me if I'm wrong.
24
25
26
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
73
11111. 11-SSCE0004149
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
A

74
A
Okay.

8
9
10
A
I beg your pardon.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
BY
19
Q Right.
20
21
22
23
24
A I don't know.
25 Q Okay.
26
-SSCE00041 50
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
75
A
Okay.

8
9

10

A
You're welcome.

11

So I'm going to ask you some questions

12
now, though, about the records that you previously

13
provided to the committee.
14
15
16
17
18

19

A No.

20 Q
Okay.
21
22
23
24

25
A
26
SSCE00041 51
2
3
Q Again. Okay
4
A
But I am not sure.
5
Q
All right.
6
7
8
9
(Exhibit
3 identified.)
10

: 23 through 164.
11

BY
12 Q
I'm showing you what has been marked for
76
13

today's proceedings as 1111 3. And I believe it's a

14

document that is Bates stamped

15
16
17
18
A Yes.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A
I don't know.
26
-SSCE0004152
1
2
3
Q
All right.
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
Are you with me?
15
A
Not entirely.
16 Q
Okay. The first -- I'm just going by
17
Bates stamps.
18
A
Okay.
19 Q
I'm not going to rely on page numbers of
20
these documents.
21
A
I see your reference. I don't understand
22
the context.
23 Q
Okay. I'm trying to identify what these
24
papers are.
25
A
Okay.
26
77
1111111-SSCE00
041 53
A I see that.
Do you see where I am now?
A Yes.
Q
Okay. And that appears to be -- correct
78
1
2
3
4 A Correct.

6
7
8

A Correct.


Okay.


9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 me if I'm wrong.
19
20 A I don't know if it is.
21 Q You don't know, all right. Well, it
22 appears to be, for our purposes today.
23

1111111111111= 111111111
24
25
26
SSCE00041 54
Does that appear
A It appears so.
Okay.
It appears to b
A That's how it's titled, correct.
Q Okay.
79
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
MIMSSCE00041 55
1
2
3
4
Is that a fair statement as we go through
these documents?
A It appears that way, yes.
6 Q Okay.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 A It appears to be.
14 Q Okay.
15
16
17
18
19 A
20 Q Yes, sir.
21 A Yes, it appears that way.
22
23
24
25 A It does appear that way.
26
80
-SSCE00041 56
A
Yes.
All right. Now I'm looking a
A
8

9
A
I'm sorry.
10
11

12
A
13

14 Q
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
A Yes.
23
A
Yes.
24 Q
Okay. Let's just work with this document
25
for a moment, if we can.
26
IIIII
-SSCE00041 57
1
2
3
4
5
6
81
82

A Okay.
2
3
4
6

7
Are you with me at the bottom of the page?
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
A Yes.
18

A
Correct.
19
Q
All right.
20
21
22
23

A
24

And do we have a copy of that?

25

A
26
allii-SSCE0004158
1
83
Q All right.
Where else?
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
: Correct.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it does.
1111111111111 1111111
: Could you be specific, then?
-SSCE00041 59
1
2
3
BY
4 Q Okay.
5 A Correct.
6
7
8 A Correct.
9 Q All right.
10
11 A I believe
12
13 A
14
15
16 A
17
18
19 A
20
21
22
23
24
: Federal law.
25
THE WITNESS:
26
84
all.1-SSCE0004160
1
85
BY
A
All right.

Thank you.
A You're welcome.
111111111111111M:
THE WITNESS: I do not. Provided to --
You do not know or you do
not have them?
THE WITNESS: I do not have them.
.111111-SSCE0004161
3
4
5
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
: Okay.
Absolutely, absolutely.
: Okay. And even --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7

An e-mail confirmation.
-- an e-mail confirmation to
9

10
me that I can check off.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
: Thank you,

we
18
appreciate that.
19
This may be a good time to break. We
20
wanted to make a little more progress than we've
21
made right now, but this has been extremely. helpful
22
so we're happy for it.
23
THE WITNESS: I'm fine to continue if you
24
would like to.
: Well, why don't we do
SSCE00041 62
25
26
1 another -- half hour, is that too much?

2
Absolutely.

3
: We'll be able to avoid the

4 lunch rush downstairs. Let's do another half hour

5 and see how much we can accomplish.

6 BY

7
Q
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16

17

A Yes.

18
Q Okay.
19
20
21

22 A I see it.
23
24
25
26
87
-SSCE0004163
1
A
That is correct.
2 Q
3
4
A No.
5
6
7
9
A
That is correct.
10
11
12
A
No.
13
14
15
16
17
18
Q
All right.
19
20
21
22
23
24
A
I do not know why.
25
Q
Okay.
26
88
A
No.
11111111SSCE
00041 64
89
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
A No.
9
All right.
10
11
12
A Yes.
13
14
15
A No.
16
17
18
19
Do you see that?
20
A
21
22
23
24
25
26
IME
-SSCE0004165
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
A
Q Okay.
A
90

8
9
10

A
11
12
13
14
15
A
16
17
18
A I don't know.
19
20
21

A Yes.
22
23

A
24
25
26
ilill-SSCE0004166
1
Q
What are you looking at as you're

2 speaking, Ill 7?

3 A -7.

4 Q Okay. Keep going?

5 A
6
7

8
Q
Have you ever met this individual?

9 A Yes.

lo
Q
okay.
11

12
A IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

13
Q
Okay.
14

15 A
16

17 A
18
19
20
21

22 A
23

24
Q
Okay.

25 A
26
91
111111ESSCE0004167
1
2
I don't think you found any for
4
A
I don't believe so.
5
Q
Okay.
6
7
8
9
10
11
A Yes.
12
13
14
15
A
16
17
18 Q
So I'm looking
19
A
For example
I have to find it.
20 Q
Page 14?
21
A
Page 14,
22
Q Okay.
23
24
25
A
26
92
-SSCE0004168
Okay.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
93

8
A
9

10
Q
Yes, I see that. Thank you.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A
A
-SSCE0004169
OL11700030SS
9Z
SZ
T73
V
EZ
ZZ
'kelt 0
TZ
OZ

61
81
O
LT
91
ST

T7T
ET
O
ZT

.qou op I 'ON V
TT
OT
6

.noA Nuplu 0
8
V
9
0
E
1
2
A
3
4
A
5
6
okay.
7
8
9
10
A
11
12
Q
Okay.
13
14
15
A
16
17
18
A
19
20
A
Yes.
21
22
A
Yes.
23
24
No H.
The H is silent.
25
26
95
-SSCE0004171
1
2
3
4
BY
5 A Yes.
6 Can
7 you --
8 A
Okay.
10 A
11
12
13
14 Q Okay.
15
16 A Yes.
17
18
19
20
21
22 A
23
24
25
26
-SSCE0004172
1
2
A
3
Q Okay.
4
A
5
Q Okay.
6
A
7
8
9
Q Okay.
10
11
A
12
13
Q Right,
just written differently.
Okay.
14 see.
15
A Yes.
16
17
A
18
Q Okay.
19
20
A Yes.
21
22
23
A
24
25
26
97
-SSCE0004173
1
2 A
98

4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A Correct.
Okay.
A



MIESSCE0004174
99
1
2
3

(Laughter.)
4

Get out your pick and shovel.

5

I hear you.
BY
7

But you can see -- I'm looking at page 5

8
first.
9
A
Can you tell me what your specific
10
question to me is?
11 Q
Question is --
12
13
14
THE WITNESS:
15
16
BY
17 Q
Correct.
18
19
20
A
Yes.
21 Q
We're looking at II
7
22

the first page of Exhibit

23
1117?
24
A
25
26
IIIIII-SSCE0004175
13
14
15
Q Right. Understood.
16
17
18
A
I don't know. I don't make assumptions.
1
2
3
A
4
5
6
7
A Yes.
8
9
10
A
11
12
A
100
19 Q
Okay.
20
21

A
22
23 Q
Gotcha, okay.
24
A
25
26
SSCE00041 76
A
A
A
A
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
A
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
101
Don't repeat, right. We understand.
(Witness reviewed the document.)
Okay.
A
Correction.
A
-SSCE00041 77
1
2
3
4

5 THE WITNESS:

6 BY

7 Q Okay. We all goway back.

8

(Laughter.)

A
10

11
Q
Okay.
12

13

A
14
15
16
17

18 BY

19 Q Okay.

20 A
21
22
23
24

25 Q Okay.
26
102
SSCE00041 78
1
2
3
4
A
Q
That's right. You already said that
5 earlier.
6 A
7
8 A
9
10
Q
Gotcha, okay.
11
12
13 Q Right, okay. Good.
14
15
16 A
17
18
19
20
21
22
Q
Understood.
23
24
25
26
103
MIIMI-SSCE0004179
1
2
A
3
5
6
7
A
8
9
10
11
I understand.
12
13
14
A
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
A
Yes. And that's
23
24
25
A Yes.
26
104
-SSCE00041 80
2
3
4
5
6
7
No, I
made no assumptions.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
A
Yes.
16
17
18
19
20

21
A Yes.

22 Q
Is there anything -- is that your
first

23
page of -2?

24
A
Yes. Bates
stamped.' 1.

25
: Let's
make
this'll- 4.
26
105
IIIII
SSCE00041 81
106
1

(Exhibit 1111 4 identified.)

2
THE WITNESS: Thank you for working
3
through lunch. I had hoped to go out and see
4
Mount Vernon this afternoon. I appreciate it.
5
: The witness is assuming that
6
we're going to --
7
(Laughter.)

8
THE WITNESS: The witness is assuming

9
nothing. Notice I phrased it as I had hoped.

10
BY

11 Q
Well, I hope you get that opportunity.

12
It's a wonderful place to visit. I'm showing you

13
what's been marked as 1114 for identification.
14
15
16
17

18
Is that what it is?

19
A Correct.
20
21

22
A

23
Q Okay.
24

25

A Yes.
26
111111-SSCE00041 82
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
107
9
10
11
A
I was not given any other instructions.
12
13
A
14
15
16

A
Correct.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

A
Correct.
24
25
26
11111-SSCE00041 83
1
2

A
4
5
6
7
8
9

10 A
11

12
Q
Yes.

13 A
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21 A No.
22
23
24

25 A No.
26
108
-SSCE0004184
1
2
3
4
5
A No.
6
7
8
A No.
9
10
11
A
12
Q Okay.
13
A
14
15
Q Okay.
16
17
18
19
Q
Okay.
20
A
21
Were there other people
involved?
22
A No.
23
24
25
A
Correct.
26
109
-SSCE00041 85
1
Q
Okay.
2

3 A No, I don't.
4
5

6 Earlier?

7 A I believe it was during the first half of

8

9 Q Okay.
10
11
12
13

14 A None to my recollection.

15
Q
I think you'd remember that.

16 A Then no.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
110
11.11-SSCE00041 86
2 A
3
4
5
6
7 Q Okay.
111

8 A
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

16 A No.
17
18
19

20

A No.
21
22
23

24 A Yes.
25
26
SSCE00041 87
112
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
A No.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16

A No.
17
18
19
20

A No.
21
22

A
23
24
Q Okay.
25
26
MINISSCE00041 88
1 A No.
2
3
4

5 A No.
6
7
8

9 A
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19 A
20
21

22 A

23
Q
Okay' -11
24
25
26
113
111.1-SSCE0004189
1
2
3
A No.
4
5
6
7
A No.
8 QU

10
11
A
12
13
A No.
14
Q All right.
15
16
A No.
17
18
19
20
A Yes.
21
22
23
A
24
25 Q
26
114
No.
SSCE00041 90
1
2 A No.
3
4
5 A No.
6 Q So would --
7 A
115
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22
23
24
25
26
-SSCE00041 91
1
THE WITNESS:
Correct.
2
3
4
5
6
BY
7
8
9
10
A
11
Q Okay.
12
13
14
15
16
A No.
17
18
19
A
20
Q Okay.
21
22
23
A Yes.
24
25
26
Mil.SSCE0004192
A
2
3
4
Q Okay.
5
6
117
8
9
THE WITNESS:
10
11

BY
12
Q Okay.
13
14
15
16
17

A No.
18
19
20
A No.
21
22
23

A
Correct.
24
25
26
IME- SSCE00041 93
A
118
2

3 111111111111: You followed my admonition,

4 I can assure you we didn't.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

6 BY
7

8
9
10

11

A Correct.
12
Q
All right.
13
14
15
16
17

A No.
18
19
20

A No.
21
22
23
24
25
26
11111.111-SSCE00041 94
1
2
3
4
5
6
A
119
8

9
A
I don't, understand your question.
10
11
12
13
14
15

16

A
There were very few, I agree.

17

Very few.

18

A
19
20
21
A Correct.
22
23
24
25
26
SSCE0004195
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
THE WITNESS:
17
18
BY
A
Let's do that.
Let's do that, great.
A
So we have correct understandings, please.
A
1
A
2
3
4
5
A Okay.
6
7
8
9
120
19
20
A
21
22
23
A
I don't know.
24
25
A
I don't know.
26
SSCE0004196
2
3
4 Q
Yes, good catch on your part. We missed
it as well.
6
Okay.
7

8
A Correct.

9 Q
And -- okay.

10
A
11
12
13
14
15
16

17
A I do not know.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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26
A Yes.
-SSCE00041 97
No, no.
1
A Yes.
2
3
4
5
6
7
1111111111
8
A
9
Q
Okay. All right.
10
11
12
13
A No.
14
Q Okay.
16
17
A
18 Q
19
20

A
Correct.
21
22
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26
122
15
IIIMISSCE00041 98
1 : Requested by you, Counselor?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY
Q I'm sorry, you told me that earlier and I

5 forgot the detail.

6 A That's quite all right.

7
8
9
10
11

12 A Yes.
13
14

15 A No.

16
Q
Okay.
17

18 A Yes.
19
20

21 A Everything in your document request.

22 Q Absolutely. Okay.
23
24
25
26
123
SSCE00041 99
1
2
A
3
4
Q Okay.
5
6
A No.
7
Q Okay.
8
9

A
10

Q
11
12
13

A No.
14

Q Okay.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
Do you remember that?
22
A
No, I do not.
23 Q
Okay.
24
25
26
124
MISCE0004200
1
2 A No.
3
Q
11111 Okay
.

4
5
7 A No.
8
9
10 A No.
11
12
13
14
15

A No.
16
17
18 A No.
19
20
21
22 A No.
23
24
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26
SSCE0004201
1
2
3

A
No. This is the first time hearing of
4

that.
5

Okay.
6
7
8
9
10
A
I don't understand your question.
11
Q Okay.
12
13
14
15
16
A No.
17
18
19
20
21
A
Correct.
22
Q
All right.
23
24
25
A No.
26
126
1.1111.-SSCE0004202
1
2
3
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6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
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26
Correct.
Q Okay.
A
A
Correct.
A No.
Q Okay.
A No.
127
SSCE0004203
1
2
3
4
6
7
A

No.
8
9
10
A No.
11
12
A
Correct. The answer is still no.
13 Q
Thank you.
14
15
16
A No.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A No.
A No.
-SSCE0004204
129
130
131
-SSCE0004207
SSCE0004208
135
136
3
4
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8
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26
A
Q
Okay. That's f i n e .
I would l i k e to j u s t take a very short
break so I can confer with my colleagues and we may
be done here,
A Thank you.
So i f I could ask you to step
out and maybe go t o the next room.

BY

Q there anything f u r t h e r you would l i k e
to say to us at t h i s point? there anything you'd
l i k e to change about your testimony, any things that
have come to your mind since you've been t e s t i f y i n g

139
1 today or anything else you think the committee would
2 benefit from hearing?
3 A No, thank you.




5 very much f o r coming. And I hope you enjoy the rest
6 of your day at Mount Vernon.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9

here, as a
9 we do believe that t h i s t r a n s c r i p t might
10 be available by sometime tomorrow?
we w i t h
12 permission, i s put you i n a room somewhere here, and
13 you can j u s t go over -- you r e a l l y don't need to be
14 does i t , because y o u ' l l be
15 otherwise occupied anyway. But j u s t go through i t
16 l i n e by l i n e . And i f you see anything, j u s t make a
17 l i s t .
We'll

errata
19 sheet.


Where you can make changes.
THE WITNESS: I look forward to that.
2 2 (Laughter.)


estimate of
24 the time tomorrow morning? Because, again,
2 5 to go see a few things.
26

140
1 COURT REPORTER: Usually i t ' s delivered by
2 8:00 and the t r a n s c r i p t i s 14 0 pages.
4 (Discussion o f f the record.)
5 (Whereupon, at 1:43 p.m., the deposition
6 was concluded.)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

141
1 I HEREBY CERTIFY that I have read t h i s
2 t r a n s c r i p t of my deposition and that t h i s t r a n s c r i p t
3 accurately states the testimony given by me, with
4 the changes or corrections, i f any, as noted.
5
6
7 X
8
9
10
11 Subscribed and sworn to before me t h i s day of
12 , 20
13
14
15
16 X
17 Notary
18
19
20
21 My commission expires:
22
23
24
25

142
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
C O N T E N T S
WITNESS EXAMINATION
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
E X H I B I T S
EXHIBIT NUMBER
Exhibit
Exhibit
Exhibit
Exhibit
Exhibit
Exhibit
IDENTIFIED
11
41
58
70
76
106