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Photos by Sonders Milens
6 CHITTENOEN
Editor's note: The
following
discusson with Yermont's three
gubernatorial candidates,
Republican Luther (Fred)
Hackett, Democrat Thomas
Salmon, and Bernard Sanders of
the Liberty Union Party, wes
tape-recorded
just
after the
primary on September i,5.
While the discussion is not as
extensive as we had intended,
(Salmon was 30 minutes late in
arrving because of a
communications gap in his
campaign staff), it should be a
useful supplement to the day-to-
day coverage provided n other
meda.
Steele: As a starting point, why don't I toss
out a word that seems to have spilled over
from the primary. The word "machine". I
know that you, Tom, have indicated that you
agree with the gentlemen who lost the
Republican primary that there is indeed a
machine. You, Fred, have indicated you
don't think there is a machine. As I
understand what you said, the machine is
really nothing but one candidate's term for
the other guy's organization. Why don't we
just
start it out with any comments any of
you might have on this or is it even an issue
now that the primary is over?
Slmon: Well I'd like to start out by saying
that I think it is very much an issue,
particularly in light of what happened in the
primary. Jim Jeffords ran a highly visible,
highly credible campaign in this primary. He
is a man who had a tremendously high voter
identification record, a solid record as
Attorney General in this State, in two terms,
one of the top vote getters that the
Republican party has ever had in this State.
He suggested that perhaps the Republican
party should rock the boat somewhat,
perhaps open its doors to a little broader
constituency and unhappily he met the fate
that some of his predecessors such as Jim
Oakes and Tom Hayes met. He met the same
fate that Secretary of State Dick Thomas
and Senator John Alden met during the last
Congressional primary. Those who do not
exactly fit into the mold of the political
power structure of the Grand Old Party in
the State of Vermont are subject to being
tossed overboard when they start rocking the
boat.
Steele: What's the difference between a
machine and an organization?
Slmon: I think there is a tremendous
difference. A machine says in terms of the
basic credo, that one must fit into a
particular type of philosophical mold. He
must stand for a basic direction in respect to
government. It preordains, in a sense, the
quality and the characteristics of the
individual that holds a high public office.
Hckett: Tom evidently can't find any real
issues in this campaign so he's going to talk
about this one. I suspect that before we get
through the next six weeks, we will come
down to some real issues, I hope we will. I'm
going to talk about them anyway.
Vermonters know that there is no political
machine in Vermont. If my traveling for
twenty weeks, 19,000 miles, meeting
approximately 14,000 Vermonters, going
town to town, door to door, to meet people,
to try to establish my positions and myself as
a viable candidate, if that's a machine, that's
a new definition of the word. The realities are
that I was able to develop a group ofpeople
that wanted to help me. It was a surprise to
some that there were so many new people,
brand new to politics who
joined
this effort,
lots of young people, friends and associates
of mine that have never been in politics
before. Certainly we had lots of help from
the members of the legislature, people that I
have been associated with, who knew me and
what I stand for, we spoke out on the same
issues and won an election and I intend to
campaign in the same fashion in the general
election, to meet and talk with Vermonters
everywhere, and talk with them about the
issues. I think that is what Vermonters
expect and I think that is what they consider
when they go to the polls. Nobody in the
state of Vermont is told how to vote, and that
is why I think that any contention that there
is a machine is a phony. Because a machine
would have to be able to tell people how to
vote.
Snders: I hesitate to make this a habit,
but I happen to agree with Fred on this. But I
am disappointed because you fall right into
the trap of the game. When you talk about
this machine, Fred, you spent, what, $35 or
$40,000 on your primary? It's an obvious fact
that Fred has the big money in the state. He
got more of the big Republican money than
Jeffords did and that's probably why he wo.
I wouldn't call that a machine, there's noth-
ing illegal about it.
But, what we've got to talk about
-
we
can't let these fellowi run awav from the real,
very, very serious issues. An that's exactly
what they would like to do, a little
game-s-
manshipi they all play these things'
Talk
about iisues, they have to talk about
wny
they don't talk about the war in Vietnam,
why they don't talk about the fact that some
people in this country have billions of dollars
guideline.
I
I
I
Photos by Sanders Milens
Editor's note: The
following
discussion with Vermont's three
gubernatorial candidates,
Republican Luther (Fred)
Hackett, Democrat Thomas
Salmon, and Bernard Sanders of
the Lberty Union Party, was
tape-recorded
just
after the
primary on September i,5.
While the discussion is not as
extensive as we had intended,
(Salmon was 30 minutes late in
arriving because of a
communications gap in his
campaign staff), it should be a
useful supplement to the day-to-
day coverage provided in other
media.
Stcele: As a starting point, why don't I toss
out a word that seems to have spilled over
from the primary. The word "machine". I
know that you, Tom, have indicated that you
agree with the gentlemen who lost the
Republican primary that there is indeed a
machine. You, Fred, have indicated you
don't think there is a machine. As I
understand what you said, the machine is
really nothing but one candidate's term for
the other guy's organization. Why don't we
just
start it out with any comments any of
you might have on this or is it even an issue
now that the primary is over?
Slmon: Well I'd like to start out by saying
that I think it is very much an issue,
particularly in light of what happened in the
primary. Jim Jeffords ran a highly visible,
highly credible campaign inthis primary. He
.is
a man who had a tremendously high voter
identification record, a solid record as
Attorney General in this State, in two terms,
one of the top vote getters that the
Republican party has ever had in this State.
He suggested that perhaps the Republican
party should rock the boat somewhat,
perhaps open its doors to a little broader
constituency and unhappily he met the fate
that some of his predecessors such as Jim
Oakes and Tom Hayes met. He met the same
fate that Secretary of State Dick Thomas
and Senator John Alden met during the last
Congressional primary. Those who do not
exactly fit into the mold of the political
power structure of the Grand Old Party in
the State of Vermont are subject to being
tossed overboard when they start rocking the
boat.
Steele: What's the difference between a
machine and an organizatin?
Sdmon: I think there is a tremendous
difference. A machine says in terms of the
basic credo, that one must fit into a
particular type of philosophical mold. He
must stand for a basic direction in respect to
government. It preordains, in a sense, the
quality and the characteristics of the
individual that holds a high public office.
Hckett: Tom evidently can't find any real
issues in this campaign so he's going to talk
about this one. I suspect that before we get
through the next six weeks, we will come
down to some real issues, I hope we will. I'm
going to talk about them anyway.
Vermonters know that there i no political
machine in Vermont. If my traveling for
twenty weeks, 19,000 miles, meeting
approximately 14,000 Vermonters, going
town to town, door to door, to meet people,
to try to establish my positions and myself as
a viable candidate, if that's a machine, that's
a new defnition of the word. The realities are
that I was able to develop a group ofpeople
that wanted to help me. It was a surprise to
some that there were so many new people,
brand new to politics whojoined this effort,
lots of young people, friends and associates
of mine that have never been in politics
before. Certainly we had lots of help from
the members of the legislature, people that I
have been associated with, who knew me and
what I stand for, we spoke out on the same
issues and won an election and I intend to
campaign in the same fashion in the general
election, to meet and talk with Vermonters
everywhere, and talk with them about the
issues. I think that is what Vermonters
expect and I think that is what they consider
when they go to the polls. Nobody in the
state of Vermont is told how to vote, and that
is why Ithink that any contention that there
is a machine is a phony. Because a machine
would have to be able to tell people how to
vote.
Snders: I hesitate to make this a habit,
but I happen to agree with Fred on this. But I
am disappointed because you fall right into
the trap of the game.
rWhen
you talk about
this machine, Fred, you spent, what, $35 or
$40,000 on your primary? It's an obvious fact
that Fred has the big money in the state. He
got more of the big Republican money than
Jeffords did and that's probably why he wo-n.
I wouldn't call that a machine, there's noth-
ing illegal about it.
But, what we've got to talk about
-
we
can't let these fellows run away from the real,
very, veiy serious issues. And that's exactly
what they would like to do, a little games-
manship, they all play these things. Talk
about issues, they have to talk about why
they don't talk about the war in Vietnam,
i:
ea
grossly unequitable
tax structure,
why 5070
of the kids in the state of Vermont
have never
seen a dentist
bY
age.WhYTVoof
t
l/3 of the stat
guideline.
6 CHITTENDEN
CHITTENDEN
7
Don't get involved in this machine game,
that's the way they are getting votes, and they
appeal to the silliest ignorance and I really
hope that the reporters in the state won't
allow that to go on, ask hard questions and
don't get into this game business, and if Fred
\ryant to talk issues, I'd be delighted to talk
issues.
Steele: Let's talk issues then: what's the
number one issue in your mind?
Snders: The state budget, for example, is
approximately $130,000,000 a year, right?
Something like that. O.k. We spend in the
United States of America close to $200
million every single day. That's more than
the state budget for the State of Vermont for
a year, for the military.
I say that these men have got to talk out if
they are going to represent the people of the
state of Vermont, because that's Vermont's
tax money. You can't ignore that. You've got
to tell us what you think about the war in
Vietnam, what you think about America
supporting military dictatorships,
throughout the world. How you feel about
the Federal tax structure which allows gross
inequalities. If we didn't waste money on the
military, we could lower property taxes at
home. Money could stay here to build
schools and so forth and so on. That's the
first issue that seems to me to be terribly
relevant about which I would like to hear
these gentlemen's comments.
Slmon: Let me say first, Addison, that I
think Bernard would be a little more
comfortable running for the Congress of the
United States this year, in terms of the issues
which he thinks are paramount in this
campaign. I think it would be highly
regrettable if the candidates for Governor in
Vermont dwelled on national and
international subjects as opposed to the
terribly critical issues that face us statewide
in this particular year.
Let me
just
tick off a few. Fred, the first
question here today was with reference to the
word
*machine"
and what it meant and I
attempted to express what it meant to me.
That was not to indicate that I don't think
there are terribly important issues in this
campaign and I look forward to a high level
dialogue with you and with Bernard Sanders
throughout the campaign. Tax reform is one
issue with particular emphasis on local
property tax reform. We're talking about the
taxes on the personal residence, particularly
of the permanent Vermonter, and the
average guy in terms of our economic cycle,
talking not only abot the poor, not only
about the senior citizens, talking about the
average guy and what we are going to do
about his plight NOW, not two or three years
or some indefinite time in the future
-
what
we are going to do about him in this
particular year.
I intend to offer within the very near
future, a new tax reform plank that will
highlight the local property tax reform and
really do sonrcthing for the average guy in ow
society who is paying an inordinate burden
"The only way you
are
going to bring
equity to the
appraisol system
is to establish
a county appraiser
system . . ."
Luther Hackett
"Attempt to match the
requirements of exist-
ing industry nd
new industry to
job
skills that we
have right here in
the State of Vermont."
Thomas Salmon
"We don't need more
underarm sprql
deodorant
factories.
What we have got to
do is shift the
priorities around
so that we take care
of the real needs."
Bernard Sanders
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8 CHITTENOEN
and a burden that is just
another aspect of
the fundamentally regressive tax systm that
we have here in the state of Vermont.
.
Another issue which you, Fred, injected
into the campaign, is this whole isJue of
welfare. And now that the Republican party
has decided to run on this issue for the thir
straight time, having failed to come to grips
with the problem in a realistic way, let'Jtaik
about welfare in this campaign during the
year 1972.
Let's all consider the
environment as it relat
questtron of how we
qualitis of this state
characteristics that make it such a beautiful
state in which to live, are going to be
preserved. How we can make a solid
commitment to the environment which I
have made in terms of the necessary
economic and population growth that wiil
follow. This indeed is an issue. There are
many others but if I were to pick three off the
top of my head, these will be the areas that
will highlight the campaign.
Hckett: I think Tom has raised the issues.
The real question, of course, is for
candidates to respond to them, not simply to
raise them. I think probably we could all sit
around, everyone who is here, press
included, and we could ask the questions.
The real key to what I hope this campaign is
all about, is to get some answers.
We have got to have property tax reform
in the State, everyone agrees that the
property tax system isn't working properly
to do what needs to be done in Vermont. The
question is how do we change it. I have been
campaigning in the state for 3 months, 4
think that the first step
e is to bring appraisal
way you are going to
appraisal system is to
establish a county appraiser system so that
we get permanent resident professional
appraisers giving the listers in every town
every year an updated appraisal ofproperty.
You have got to start with appraisal equity,
it's a truism but it is real. The property tax
won't work in any form, regardless of the
rate, regardless of anything you talk about,
without appraisal equity. That's the starting
point.
The whole question of the environment
and for that matter, the level of economic
activity in the state andjobs. These questions
are not unrelated, they are tied together. For
Vermont, the thing that we have to do, is to
preserve the open rural character of the state.
But it isn't enough to say that we have to do
it, the questions are, how do we do it.
One of the best tools developed to date is
Act 250. I helped to write it, helped to pass it,
the record is clear. Matter of fact, one of my
opponents (Salmon) fought it on the floor of
the house, tooth and nail for at least 2 days
and I think the record is clear on that. That's
a tool, a device, I think that it's a good one.
The permit system itself gives us a start.
Secondly, the land use plan part of it, the
part we are
just
coming to, is critical to
Vermont. I don't think there is anything
Salmon: Well I'm very glad that Fred
Hackett has resurrected my posture in the
legislature on Act 250 and I think the record
will stand for itself. I think Fred has a little
difficulty here distinguishing dissent,from
constructive criticism and I think that
history and what happened in terms of Act
250, making the department of health
regulations work hand in glove
with the
Act250 and the role that I played in this will
come to light during this campaign. And I
say that the record will show that I played
a
constructive role. I read on the front page
of
the newspapers of the state today that the
major loophole in Act 250 is that we have
placed no constraints on development in l0
acre plots and lower and I reread some
remarks that I made in 1970 before the
Senate Natural Resources Committee and
one of the major points that I made was this:
that one of the fundamental
weaknesses
is
development in l0 acre plots and lower and I
am glad that someone however belatedty, is
finally come to grips with this fact of life.
Steele: What is your philosophy
on land
use plan, if you could capsule it very briefly?
Hackett: Unfortunately, it is not possible
to capsulize very briefly a land use plan. It is
one of the most complex and difficult tasks
this state has ever undertaken. We have just
begun. I have been through task force
reports, each of them is different from the
other. We still haven't reached the stage yet
where we can get some agreement on
principles, but we are going to have to.
Briefly stated, the land use plan has to
start with the capability, the physiographic
capability of the land in terms of what kinds
ofuses it can be put to. Then to that we have
to add the social development that has taken
place because we have to recognize the facts
as they are. Then we have to make some
judgments
about what kind of social
development ought to take place and what
extensions there ought to be. And those
things have to be incorporated into a land
use plan, and finally have to have the local
zoning to back it.
Steele: What would have to be in that plan
for it to get your approval, Bernie and Tom?
Salmon: To get my approval, the plan
should be a fairly concise document. The
land capability plan is the fi.rndamental one.
The land use plan is the resultin g map after
the land capability judgments
are mad,e.
lt
would have to contain a fairlv concise
statement that indicates the comniitment
of
the state of Vermont to the environment
in
keeping with this plan. It would have to spell
and a burden that is just another aspect of
the fundamentally regressive tax system that
we have here in the state of Vermont.
Another issue which you, Fred, injected
into the campaign, is this whole issue of
welfare. And now that the Republican party
has decided to run on this issue for the third
straight time, having failed to come to grips
with the problem in a realistic way, let's talk
about welfare in this campaign during the
year 1972.
Let's all consider the whole question of the
environment as it relates to Vermont
-
the
question of how we retain the pastoral
qualities of this state, the essential rural
characteristics that make it such a beautiful
state in which to live, are going to be
preserved. How we can make a solid
commitment to the environment which I
have made in terms of the necessary
economic and population growth that will
follow. This indeed is an issue. There are
many others but if I were to pick three off the
top of my head, these will be the areas that
will highlight the campaign.
Hckett: I think Tom has raised the issues.
The real question, of course, is for
candidates to respond to them, not simply to
raise them. I think probably we could all sit
around, everyone who is here, press
included, and we could ask the questions.
The real key to what I hope this campaign is
all about, is to get some answers.
We have got to have property tax reform
in the State, everyone agrees that the
property tax system isn't working properly
to do what needs to be done in Vermont. The
question is how do we change it. I have been
campaigning in the state for 3 months, 4
months nearly, and I think that the first step
that we have to take is to bring appraisal
equity and the only way you are going to
bring equity to the appraisal system is to
establish a county appraiser system so that
we get permanent resident professional
appraisers giving the listers in every town
every year an updated appraisal ofproperty.
You have got to start with appraisal equity,
it's a truism but it is real. The property tax
won't work in any form, regardless of the
rate, regardless of anything you talk about,
without appraisal equity. That's the starting
point.
The whole question of the environment
and for that matter, the level of economic
activity in the state andjobs. These questions
are not unrelated, they are tied together. For
Vermont, the thing that we have to do, is to
preserve the open rural character of the state.
But it isn't enough to say that we have to do
it, the questions are, how do we do it.
One of the best tools developed to date is
Act250.I helped to write it, helped to pass it,
the record is clear. Matter of fact, one of my
opponents (Salmon) fought it on the floor of
the house, tooth and nail for at least 2 days
and I think the record is clear on that. That's
a tool, a device, I think that it's a good one.
The permit system itself gives us a start.
Secondly, the land use plan part of it, the
part we are
just
coming to, is critical to
Vermont. I don't think there is anything
more important in the next couple of years
for Vermont, than to develop an effective
land use plan. And the local zoning to
support it. It's an enormous test and we have
to see about that one right off. We can't go a
lot further in the business of protecting open
rural space, that quality of Vermont, without
a land use plan.
Slmon: Well I'm very glad that Fred
Hackett has resurrected my posture in the
legislature on Act 250 and I think the record
will stand for itself. I think Fred has a little
difficulty here distinguishing dissent,from
constructive criticism and I think that
history and what happened in terms of Act
250, making the department of health
regulations work hand in glove with the
Act 250 and the role that I played in this will
come to light during this campaign. And I
say that the record will show that I played a
constructive role. I read on the front page of
the newspapers of the state today that the
major loophole in Act 250 is that we have
placed no constraints on development in l0
acre plots and lower and I reread some
remarks that I made in 1970 before the
Senate Natural Resources Committee and
one of the major points that I made was this:
that one of the fundamental weaknesses is
development in l0 acre plots and lower and I
am glad that someone however belatedly, is
finally come to grips with this fact of life.
Steele: What is your philosophy on land
use plan, if you could capsule it very briefly?
Hackett: Unfortunately, it is not possible
to capsulize very briefly a land use plan. It is
one of the most complex and diffcult tasks
this state has ever undertaken. We have just
begun. I have been through task force
reports, each of them is different from the
other. We still haven't reached the stage yet
where we can get some agreement on
principles, but we are going to have to.
Briefly stated, the land use plan has to
start with the capability, the physiographic
capability of the land in terms of what kinds
of uses it can be put to. Then to that we have
to add the social development that has taken
place because we have to recognize the facts
as they are. Then we have to make some
judgments
about what kind of social
development ought to take place and what
extensions there ought to be. And those
things have to be incorporated into a land
use plan, and finally have to have the local
zoning to back it.
Steele:
\y'hat
would have to be in that plan
for it to get your approval, Bernie and Tom?
salmon: To get my approval, the plan
should be a fairly concise document. The
land capability plan is the fundamental one.
The land use plan is the resulting map after
the land capability
judgments
are made. It
would have to contain a fairly concise
statement that indiates the commitment
of
the state of Vermont to the environment
in
keeping with this plan. It would have to spell
ITEEIffIID SPECIAI.
AVAIIBLE EVERY WEEKEND
Friday l{oon until
Monday l{oon
szge5
PLUS 2OO FREE MILES
This rate includes all gas
Excess mileage at 14
"DUSTER", "DEM0N"
OR 4 DOOR VALIANT
Large air conditioned cars
are available at $39.95
plus 200 free miles.
Avis Rent a Gar
BURLINGTON
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
86l-0411
AVIS FEATURES
DODGE & PTYMOUTH
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8 CHITTENDEN
out ln some detail, at least minimum detail,
the constraints that must be placed upon
development in Vermont.
The plan, to ultimately work, of course,
must be backed up by local town planse there
is not this guarantee in our existing
legislation. There is no question in my mind
but what additional amendments to the law
will be required to fully complete these tasks.
But these minimum constraints should
indicate that as a matter of public policy, we
are simply not going to permit the defacing
of our mountainsides. As a matter of public
policy, we are not going to permit any
intensive construction in our flood plan
areas. We are going to make a commitment
to preserve our historical sites and
irreplaceable areas. All of this and much
more must be an integral part of any plan
that I would approve.
Snders:
rhen
we talk about the
environment, it has to be intimately tied up
with the whole economic system. It is
altogether possible now in the United States
of America and in the State of Vermont,
there never will be full employment. If the
politicians ended the war in Vietnam and
you brought back all ofthe soldiers and you
closed up all the military production, you
would have mass unemployment.
The answer is not necessarily to employ
everybody in this country, 40 hours a week,
producing more and more junk. By and
large, t!is economy is based on
junk.
We
don't need more underarm spray deodorant
factories. What we have got to do is shift the
priorities around so that we take care ofthe
real needs.
We spend billions for useless wars, while
people in the State df Vermont who are poor
can't live in decent housing. We don't spend
money for teeth for our kids, we are moving
at a certain pace, but the state legislature
gives 2 million dollars to privately owned ski
industries but have not taken care of the
teeth of kids adequately. These are questions
of priority.
I think, for example, we are going to have
to say that the environment is a very fragile
thing. Many people think that we have gone
too far, that the planet is do<.'med. So I
would say for example we've got to talk now
about stopping growth for the sake of
growth and reallocating our resources to
provide for human needs. For example, we
say flatly we don't need more roads, we need
maintenance instead. Somebody has got to
to say that, we say that.
Steele: On this property tax and the
environment . . . we have seen in Chittenden
County, at least, along Shelburne Road and
along Williston Road and Pearl Street in
Essex Junction, strip development, it was
due in large part, to competition between a
couple of communities, for a commercial or
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864-5928
l Winlt
FERRISBUR veRnor H
"Tinertn
a Bcautiful Sotting"
lNTERNATIONAL ARTISTS
CHA}GING EXHIBITIONS
Daily 10
- 6
802-425-2101
The Gallery is 15 miles
south of Burlngton, on!
mile easl of Route 7 on
Four Winds Road.
1O CHITIENDEN
non-residential tax. The result is, that these
communities compete with each other and
reduce the principles that they started out
with.
Hckett: You have put your finger on a
key problem, and it is one that doesn't
just go
to developments, but also to housing. Many
of the communities that could perhaps
absorb best, from a land standpoint, the kind
of low income and middle income housing,
have been reluctant to do it, for the inverse of
the reason you just
stated
-
they have been
afraid'of the impact on schools.
The ieason the towns have gone out and
encouraged some kinds of commercial and
industrial development has been to reduce
the impact on schools in the other way, by
getting more revenue so that it costs each
taxpayer less. Now, those are parts of the
same problem and they are onlygoingto be
relieved when we have true equalization of
the property tax effort that has to be made to
support schools.
Steele: Will the tax rate be applied at a
state level? Even if you have equalized grand
lists in all of the communities there is still
going to be competition for non-residential
tax revenues.
Hckett: I think they will only be
competing for non-residential revenues, and
only zoning against housing as long as the
effect of that will be to reduce or increase the
cost of their burden for schools. When we
have true equalization of the property tax
burden for schools, we will eliminate that
competition and eliminate that barrier to the
construction of housing.
Steele: I'm not sure that it would eliminate
it. Let's take an example. Let's say IBM
wants to move into Chittenden County and
every community would like to have it,
obviously, for tax purposes. So, they will
compete with each other. Perhaps it should
go in a particular community, perhaps in
Williston near Griswold Industrial Park,
which would be the best place from a social
point of view. But each community is going
to be going after it, we saw it with the
proposed VELCO project.
Hckett: As long as it is an advantage to
them, in having the revenues from that to
finance the schools. If in fact, the burden for
the support of the schools is equalized in
every community, thenthere is no advantage
for one community to go after a particular
industry. I think that's the key.
W_e thought with the Miller formula that
we could equalize the burden. The Miller
formula was soundly conceived, the
direction was right, the direction was
essentially the Sarano direction. It was 5 or 6
years ahead of its time, but we found that it's
impractical. It's impractical because you
can't effectively equalize the grand list of246
separate towns. We've proven that. It
just
can't be done. We have to find another,
better, more responsive device for equalizing
the property tax burden for education.
'We've
got to keep the average rate for
property tax support of education at a low
level, low enough so that people can in fact,
afford it. When the only variance in property
tax effort will relate to providing for other
town services fire, police, water, sewer, etc.,
then I think you will substantially eliminate
the competition for commercial and
industrial property and as a matter of fact,
eliminate substantially, the barrier to the
construction of housing.
Slmon: Fred suggests that,the matter of
first resort here is equitable reassessment,
as
I understand it, in the State of Vermont
of
real estate burdens. And that is noble,
a
noble objective, although I think all three
candidates for Governor will agree, that
reform must come in this area. But equitable
reassessment will take perhaps two to three
years to be fully accomplished here in the
State of Vermont. Unfortunately we do not
have a tax map so called, that was authorized
by the legislature back in about 1966 in all of
the towns. That program was unfortunately
aborted. It will take a whale of a long time to
complete this effort.
I say this, there is no way we can repeal the
highly regressive local property
tax
immediately. This tax raises some hundred
and ten millions of dollars in our 264 towns
and cities. However, we can make it less
regressive as respects the poor guy, the
ave;-Je guy, and our senior citizen by
shifting now, not two or three years from
now, the fundamental emphasis to this tax
from the shoulders of these who are least
able to pay, to the shoulders of those better
able to pay. Let's talk about some of the
people and some of the entities who are
better able to pay.
Let's say, among others, people like Tom
Salmon, who is blessed with having a fair
education and an opportunity to do well in
the surroundings, with beautiful amenities
here in the State of Vermont, is one guy who
ought to pay more and all persons who are
self employed and in the professions and in
business should pay more. Another grouP
are our corporations, our partnerships, our
other business entities. A third group, a very
important group, the grorp of people
represented by largely out of state
corporations and foreigninterests who own
about 30%o of the land. here in the State of
Vermont, I say that we can make some fairly
dramatic shifts now in terms of the terribly
regressive local property tax, and this will be
a bulwark of our tax reform plan.
Hckett: I think that there is no question
that this is the key issue and I am glad that at
last we're joined
on it. It is a fact that
Vermonters can't continue to bear an ever
increasing property tax burden. One of thc
things thfhai coicerned
fne
very much
is
the question of how you transfer
burden
industrial & graphic design
(802) 864-5928
4 Winlt
FERRISBURGH, VERMO r
"Ine
rt in a Bcautiful Setting
"
INTERNATIONAL ARTISTS
CHA}GII,IG EXHI BIT I ONS
Daily 10
-
6
802-425-2101
The Gallery is 15 miles
south of Burlington, one
mile east of Route 7 on
Four Winds Road.
non-residential tax. The result is, that these
communities compete with each other and
reduce the principles that thy started out
with.
Hckett: You have put your finger on a
key problem, and it is one that doesn't
just go
to developments, but also to housing. Many
of the communities that could perhaps
absorb best, from a land standpoint, the kind
of low income and middle income housing,
have been reluctant to do it, for the inverse of
the reason you just stated
-
they have been
afraid of the impact on schools.
The reason the towns have gone out and
encouraged some kinds of commercial and
industrial development has been to reduce
the impact on schools in the other way, by
getting more revenue so that it costs each
taxpayer less. Now, those are parts of the
same problem and they are only going to be
relieved when we have true equalization of
the property tax effort that has to be made to
support schools.
Stecle: Will the tax rate be applied at a
state level? Even ifyou have equalized grand
lists in all of the communities there is still
going to be competition for non-residential
tax revenues.
Hckett: I think they will only be
competing for non-residential revenues, and
only zoning against housing as long as the
effect of that will be to reduce or increase the
cost of their burden for schools. When we
have true equalization of the property tax
burden for schools, we will eliminate that
competition and eliminate that barrier to the
construction of housing.
Steele: I'm not sure that it would eliminate
it. Let's take an example. Let's say IBM
wants to move into Chittenden County and
every community would like to have it,
obviously, for tax purposes. So, they will
compete with each other. Perhaps it should
go in a particular community, perhaps in
Williston near Griswold Industrial Park,
which would be the best place from a social
point of view. But each community is going
to be going after it, we saw it with the
proposed VELCO project.
Hckett: As long as it is an advantage to
them, in having the revenues from that to
finance the schools. If in fact, the burden for
the support of the schools is equalized in
every community, then there is no advantage
for one community to go after a particular
industry. I think that's the key.
W_e thought with the Miller formula that
we could equalize the burden. The Miller
formula \ryas soundly conceived, the
direction was right, the direction was
essentially the Sarano direction. It was 5 or 6
years ahead of its time, but we found that it's
impractical. It's impractical because you
can't effectively equalize the grand list of246
separate towns. We've proven that. It just
can't be done. We have to find another,
better,more responsive device for equalizing
the property tax burden for education.
'We've
got to keep the average rate for
property tax support of education at a low
level, low enough so that people can in fact,
afford it.
ry'hen
the only variance in property
tax effort will relate to providing for other
town services fire, police, water, sewer, etc.,
then I think you will substantially eliminate
the competition for commercial and
industrial property and as a matter of fact,
eliminate substantially, the barrier to the
construction of housing.
Slmon: Fred suggesfs that'the matter of
first resort here is equitable reassessment, as
I understand it, in the State of Vermont of
real estate burdens. And that is noble, a
noble objective, although I think all three
candidates for Governor will agree, that
reform must come in this area. But equitable
reassessment will take perhaps two to three
years to be fully accomplished here in the
State of Vermont. Unfortunately we do not
have a tax map so called, that was authorized
by the legislature back in about 196 in all of
the towns. That program was unfortunately
aborted. It will take a whale of a long time to
complete this effort.
I say this, there is no way we can repeal the
highly regressive local property tax
immediately. This tax raises some hundred
and ten millions of dollars in our 264 towns
and cities, However, we can make it less
regressive as respects the poor guy, the
avei-.je guy, and our senior citizen by
shifting now, not two or three years from
now, the fundamental emphasis to this tax
from the shoulders of these who are least
able to pay, to the shoulders of those better
able to pay. Let's talk about some of the
people and some of the entities who are
better able to pay.
Let's say, among others, people like Tom
Salmon, who is blessed with having a fair
education and an opportunity to do well in
the surroundings, with beautiful amenities
here in the State of Vermont, is one guywho
ought to pay more and all persons who are
self employed and in the professions and in
business should pay more. Another gfoup
are our corporations, our partnerships, our
other business entities. A third group, a very
important group, the group of people
represented by largely out of state
corporations and foreigninterests who own
about 30Vo of the land here in the State of
Vermont. I say that we can make somefairly
dramatic shifts now in terms of the terribly
regressive local property tax, and this will be
a bulwark of our tax reform plan.
Hckctft I think that there is no question
that this is the key issue and I am glad that at
last we're
joined
on it. It is a fact that
VermonterC can't continue to bear an ever
increasing property tax burden. One of the
things that has concerned gte very much is
the question of how you transfer burden
1O CHITTENDEN
CHITTENDEN I I
without raising taxes in some other fashion.
I am convinced that with the now near
certainty of a revenue sharing bill this year,
that we are going to have a substantial
additional revenue available to make sure
that that is used to reduce the property tax,
burden throughout the state. The question
then becomes what's the best possible way in
which to use those funds. Certainly the
funding ofeducation is the largest single area
in which the state contributes to lowering the
basic property tax burden. Schools take 7070
of the total property tax.
There are some other areas, one is
highways, local costs for the maintenance of
the highway and transportation system.
A third one that certainly needs attention
is the whole area offinancing and supporting
the pollution abatement facilities, the sewage
,treatment
facilities, that we have to have. We
started in the heavy population areas. It's
one thing to be able to spread the cost of
operating and even the cost or a part of the
ost of construction to the people, but we
know that that is not enough. Having done
that, we have to now go to some relatively
sparsely populated areas where it is essential
that we have municipal treatment facilities
and the costs and operating costs are going
to be extraordinary in some communities.
It's in the state's interest that we have those
kinds of facilities. In order to do that, we're
going to have to find a way at the state level,
to share the burden of those costs. I think
that the Federal Revenue Sharing makes it
possible for us to respond to that now, and I
think we cn. We have to use the bulk of
thqse funds to reduce the burden of the
property tax throirghout the State of
Vermont.
Snders: I'm afraid both Fred and Tom
are again runnfirg away from the heart and
soul issues. Tom may think that I should be
running for Congress but I dehnitely
disagree. If you are going to be a governor of
the people of the state, they pay a lot of
money in income tax, and it's there, that's
'money
not to be wasted, in equitable tax
structure, and in military expenditure which
can come right back to lower the property
tax, and I can't see how you can run away
from it. If you were the Governor of the State
of Vermont, you should stand up and runfor
Washington, and fight for those things. So
that way we can lower taxes.
Fred talks about tax equity, well sure,
that's right in a way,'but he still runs away
from the basic
f,act
that in the State of
Vermont, we have an extremely fegiessive
tax structure. We have a sales tax, a beverage
tax, a cigarette tax, tobacco tax, meals and
room tax, etc., all these are essentially sales
taxes. In the State of Vermont, according to
the chart that I am looking at for example,
the corporate income tax in 1970 brought in
less revenue to the state than the cigarette
tax.
If you want to lower the taxes whch are
very oppressive, you've got to get away from
the regressive tax structure that we have. To
Children learn by doing
,,
n-
Remember when you were a kid and you nickled and
dimed your way to your first bicycle, or that new outfit for
school. You saved regularly for your goal in your school
savings account
..
. . a little each week.
Things haven't changed that much. Children still learn the
savings habit by saving regularly in their school savings
account. Your mutual saving banKs school savings plan
teaches money management, which is so important for
security in adult life. The plan helps your child select and.
obtain worthwhile goals through saving. For some this
goal may be immediate, like a bicycle, for others a long
term goal like a college education or the purchase of a
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HELP YOUR CHILDREN . . . ENCOURAGE THEM TO
OPEN A SCHOOL SAVINGS ACCOUNT AND LEARN
THE SAVING HABIT.
Available at Public Sch:ools in . . .
BURLINGTON NORTH BURLINGTON
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HINESBURG CHARLOTTE
All School Savings Accounts eatn 5%o annually.
Interest is compounded daily and credited quarterly
Burlington Savings Bank
VERMONT'S LARGEST BANK
148 College Street
North Burlington: Brttleboro: Essex
Junction:
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COUNTRY CLOTHING
BOUTIQUE GIFTS
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AND
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49G-2171
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vERMONT Z-ZS3-+O10
SHAW's
EENERAL STORE
srNcE, t895
I2 CHITTENDEN
are
me, it
eems
basically inequitable that you
have, for example, a property tax, by which a
Weyerhouser corPoration,
,ot
an
International Paper corporation' comPanles
that are worth hundreds or millions of
dollars are taxed on the same basis as a
young married couple who have a home next
door or a farmer who is struggling to stay
alive.
What's needed is a radical revision of the
whole tax structure, and I think here again,
you can't run arrvay from the system, which-
ilows some individuals to have billions of
dollars ad other people have nothing
because of an inequitable federal and state
tax structure. So I think, not to talk' about
these things is to really run away from the
heart and soul issue.
Snders: I'd like to give you some facts,
tell me if you think they are wrong. Now
these are the facts that I have seen: That
unemployment in the state is about7floatthe
present, perhaPs higher than that'
Hckett: A little lower than that right
now
Snders: Is it now a little bit lower? Okay
Hckett: 6.3V0, I think. 13,200 to mY
recollection.
Snderc: Those are the official statistics,
and I always tend to think that there are
always people who are not included in those
statistics, I would give atleastTVo. According
to the Federal Government, Department of
Labor Statistics, who define poverty as a
family of 4 having less than $6,800 a year'
according to those statistics, some 370 ofthe
people in Vermont live below this.
There are, still, in the State of Vermont,
thousands of working people who earn $1.60
an hour. There is a housing situation in
Vermont which is atrocious in the sense that
people in the cities are paying very high
rents, and where working people throughout
the state aie being dumped into trailers. Now
stop me il you think that anything that I am
saying is not correct. Now we have a dental
situation in the state of Vermont, where
according to the information that I've seen,
which has come from Montpelier, 5070 of the
kids in the state of Vermont have not seen a
dentist by the time they are 15 years of age,
and something like 90,000 Vermonters have
either no teeth or very little teeth
'in
their
mouth. Now is anything that I've said
wrong?
Hckett: I
just
want to make it clear that I
don't necessarily agree with all of those
statistics, Bernie, I don't have the figures,
and I have to see them firsthand. So, as the
general proposition, I
just
don't buy those
statistics.
Snders: You think that theY
inaccurate?
Hctctt: I don't have the firsthand
knowledge to tell you specifically which one
of those is wrong.
Senden: That is certainly
your privilege,
to have the facts and figures in front of you'
Slmon: Can I comment? I think the June
30th figures of the DePartment
'of
has improved those figures somewhat. But
that's7%unemployment
and in my opinion,
?%unemployment
is simply intolerable here
in the State of Vermont if we really want to
make a commitment to the kind of econornic
growth that we require to provide basic and
necessary Vermont oriented
jobs.
Hckett: Obviously,
You've
my stuff, because I said that
week of May.
been reading
since the first
Slmon:
rWell,
that well may be, Fred. I'm
sort of a latecomer to this, I'm afraid. I made
sme remarks a couple of weeks ago on the
whole subject of welfare and what I see as the
real key to coming to grips with the problem
and breaking the welfare cycle in this state.
As you recall, those remarks, as to the extent
that they'*'ere printed; the starting point is to
think about the capabilities and individual
resources of its skilled and unskilled labor
pool here in the state and attempting to
match the requirements of existing industry
and new industry to
job
skills that we have
here that are right in the State of Vermont.
Heckett: As you know, Tom, as of JulY l,
we are doing exactly that with the new
Talmadge amendments, and the transfer of
the WIN responsibility to the Department of
Employment Security and the concentration
there of the entire responsibility for MDTA
and
job
match plus the registration. We hav
been working now for over a year to get that
effective, to make it possible. The Talmadge
amendments actually gave us the final
necessary basis for doing it and thafs what
\'e are doing, thafs what we have been
aiming at and thafs where we are going.
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BOUTIOUE GIFTS
SPORTSWEAR
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FOR MEN,
woMEN,
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496-3301
Open Dally
LATEST SKI
AND.
AND
CHILDREN
2O7 MAIN STREEI
VERMONT 2-253-+UO
5HW.5
GENERAL STOEE
gtucE,
t895
me, it
eems
basically inequitable that you
have, for example, a property tax, by which a
Weyerhouser corporation,
,o
an
International Paper corporation, companies
that are worth hundreds or millions of
dollars are taxed on the same basis as a
young married couple who have a home next
door or a farmer who is struggling to stay
alive.
What's needed is a radical revision of the
whole ta! structure, and I think here again,
you can't run away from the system, which
allows some individuals to have billions of
dollars and other people have nothing
because of an inequitable federal and state
tax structure. So I think, not to talk about
these things is to really run awy from the
heart and soul issue.
Snders: I'd like to give you some facts,
tell me if you think they are wrong. Now
these are the facts that I have seen: That
unemployment in the state is about TVoatthe
present, perhaps higher than that.
Hckett: A little lower than that right
now
Snders: Is it now a little bit lower? Okay.
Hckett: 6.3V0, I think. 13,200 to my
recollection.
Snden: Those are the official statistics,
and I always tend to think that there are
always people who are not included in those
statistics, I would give atleasto. According
to the Federal Government, Department of
Labor Statistics, who define poverty as a
family of 4 having less than $6,800 a year,
according to those statistics, some 3670 ofthe
people in Vermont live below this.
There are, still, in the State of Vermont,
thousands of working people who earn $1.60
an hour. There is a housing situation in
Vermont which is atrocious in the sense that
people in the cities are paying very high
rents, and where working people throughout
the state aie being dumped into trailers. Now
stop me if you think that anything that I am
saying is not correct. Now we have a dental
situation in the state of Vermont, where
according to the information that I've seen,
which has come from Montpelier, 50l of the
kids in the state of Vermont have not seen a
dentist by the time they are 15 years ofage,
and something like 90,000 Vermonters have
either no teeth or very little teeth in their
mouth. Now is anything that I've said
wrong?
Hckett: I
just
want to make it clear that I
don't necessarily agree with all of those
statistics, Bernie, I don't have the figures,
and I have to see them firsthand. So, as the
general proposition, I just
don't buy those
statistics.
Snders:
inaccurate?
Hkett: I don't have the firsthand
knowledge to tell you specifically which one
of those is wrong.
Snders: That is certainly your privilege,
to have the facts and figures in front of you.
Slmon: Can I comment? I think the June
30th figures of the Department
'of
Employment Security showed that 15,000
people in our total work force of 200,5(X) are
unemployed and I believe, although we don't
have official statistics, that the seasonal ru5h
has improved those figures somewhat. But
thatsTZounemployment and in my opinion,
7%unemployment is simply, intolerable here
in the State of Vermont if we really want to
make a commitment to the kind of economic
growth that we require to provide basic and
necessary Vermont oriented
jobs.
Hckett: Obviously, you've been reading
my stuff, because I said that since the first
week of May.
Slmon: Well, that wellmay be, Fred. I'm
sort of a latecomer to this, I'm afraid. I made
sme remarks a couple of weeks ago on the
whole subject of welfare and what I see as the
real key to coming to grips with the problem
and breaking the welfare cycle in this state.
As you recall, those remarks, as to the extent
that they were printed; the starting point is to
think about the capabilities and individual
resources of its skilled and unskilled labor
pool here in the state and attempting to
match the requirements of existing industry
and new industry tojob skills that we have
here that are right in the State of Vermont.
Hckett As you know, Tom, as of July l,
\rye are doing exactly that with the new
Talmadge amendments, and the transfer of
the WIN responsibility to the Department of
Employment Security and the concentration
there of the entire responsibility for MDTA
and
job
match plus the registration. We hav
been working now for over a year to get that
effective, to make it possible. The Talmadge
amendments actually gave us the final
necessary basis for doing it and that's \ilhat
we are doing, that's what we have been
aiming at and thafs where we are going.
Slmon: I want to get back to your
questions, Bernard but I think that this is
very important. I say, Fred, that we do not
have here in the state of Vermont, the type of
information that I talked about in my
welfare speech. We do not know community
by community or DES region by region the
particular type of talents of individuals
unemployed in that area. And we can't
possibly match
job
skills with existing and
new industry until we have that data. Andr
that data can be readily obtained by the
Department of Employment Security by',.
adding
just
another line.or two to thei;
I2 CHITTENDEN
You think that they are
coptr
R
BOOKSoRE dtt
CHITTENDEN I3
gOOKSTORE
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58-1111
reporting form. I called for that in my
speech, and I hope that it is added.
Just very briefly, Bernard raised a couple
of points that I would like to attempt to
touch on. In my announcement for the office
of Governor, I pointed out the fact that here
in the State of Vermont, the condition of
teeth of our children is in the utter state of
disrepair and our state government is doing
nothing about it, representing a totally
intolerable situation. If I am elected
governor, we are going to take advantage of
vqry substantial Federal matching monies
available for state and local effort to come to
grips with this problem. We have 4 dental
hygienists only in the whole State of
Vermont, treating the whole public school
population.
Hckett: The dental care program was
begun this last year for children 0-6 and it
must be expanded, I believe, to include all
youngsters in the elementary school this next
year. Last year, as chairman of the welfare
board, that was our recommendation to the
legislature as the highest priority new
program. They took the first step this last
year, the 0-6 program. I believe, that we do
have that obligation and responsibility and
we can do it, to provide a dental care
program that is available to every youngster
in the elementary school program.
Snders: Fred, what about the elderly
people who can't eat? Do you think they are
entitled to teeth, too?
Hckett: I think, Bernard, that we are
trying every year to improve and expand the
programs that are available to help people,
that we are moving at it at a rate that has
been the maximunl capacity that the state
can respond. I have fought for the kind of
appropriation that is necessary to do it and
we are continuing to do it. I think that what
we have to do in the welfare area this next
year is first of all we have got to make sure
that we're in keeping with the Talmadge
amendments and the availability now under
lhe
rilIN
program, of the
job
registration
information; that we have to provide
work-
fare in Vermont. I believe that it can work,
it's not a panacea, but it will get us started on
the road to getting people back into
productive activity. We have to insist on
change in the federal categorical assistance
program. The program itself isn't working
right. I think these are things that the state
can and must do and I think it is an
obligation of the governor to move in that
area. I read Tom's position paper on welfare
the other day, he talks about separating
services from eligibility, and ofcourse, that is
exactly what we are doing, it's taken us two
years to develop the plan to get federal
approval to get the thing going but all that
says is, it's exactly what we are doing. I'm
glad to know at least, Thomas, that you are
reading up on what it is we're doing in the
welfare department in the Department of
Employment Security and following the
Federal Programs closely. Your timing is a
little off but other than that . . .
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