Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 8

Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos
THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990
AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)
R E P O R T OF T H E I N S P E C T O R S
A P P O I N T E D TO E N Q U I R E INTO T H E
A F F A I R S OF A N S B A C H E R (CAYMAN)
LIMITED
Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002
VOLUME [8]: APPENDIX X V ( 7 4 ) TO X V ( 8 0 )

ISBN 0-7557-1355-9
© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (74) Ms Mary Meagher McCarroll
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Ms
Mary Meagher McCarroll.
a) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Patrick McCarroll dated 19 June

2000.
b) Statement and attachments provided by Ms McCarroll to the Inspectors

dated 12 July 2000.
c) Copy statements dated 30 June 1991, 31 July 1991, 30 June 1992, 31

December 1992, 31 January 1993, 31 March 1993 and 20 April 1993.
d) Letter of 3 September 1991 - Patrick McCarroll to Padraig Collery.
e) Undated letter - Patrick McCarroll to Padraig Collery.
f) Unheaded ledger statement for the period 31 March 1989.
g) Letter of 26 September 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Ms Mary Meagher McCarroll.
a) Letter of 28 September 2001- Eugene F Collins to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (74) (1) (a)
EXTRACT FROM TRANSCRIPT OF EVIDENCE GIVEN TO INSPECTORS
BY MR. PATRICK MCCARROLL ON MONDAY 19th JUNE, 2000.
1 afterwards and I said I felt that may be we were too
2 small. We were not of interest to them.
3 188 Q. Yes. If we move on then Mr. McCarroll to some other
4 topics. In relation to your wife, did she have an
5 off-shore account in Guernsey too?
6 A. We got married in 1986 and I had had my
7 Guinness & Mahon account, my Guernsey account,
8 since 1978.
9 189 Q. Yes?
10 A. And shortly after we got married, in 1987/88/89, we
11 were working in the States and I think that during
12 that time I communicated with Padraig and I said,
13 "Mary is earning money in the States," and we put it
14 into an account with Guinness & Mahon
15 and...(INTERJECTION).
16 190 Q. What was your wife's occupation?
17 A. An architect. She is also an architect.
18 191 . Q. She is an architect?
^ 19 A. Yes, and when I got th? letter in relation to this I
20 was actually surprised because I thought Mary would
21 get a letter too because I thought she had had an
22 account also.
23 192 Q. Yes?
24 A. And then when we saw that she didn't get a letter I
25 said may be this code, the "P" and "M", was
26 something Padraig managed.
27 193 Q. Yes?
28 A. To just identify the money, what was Mary's and what
29 was mine.
1 194 Q. Yes?
2 A. But that is just surmising.
3 195 Q. So as I understand, it does appear then that your
4 wife lodged money in Guernsey?
5 A. Yes.
6 196 Q. When she was in the States, is that right?
7 A. Yes, the mechanism would be that we would have just
8 sent a cheque to Padraig, a dollar cheque may be,
9 and just credited it to the account.
10 197 Q. I would like you to be a little more specific. You
11 see you had an account but it does appear from the
12 documents that your wife had an account too?
13 A. Yes, I thought that my wife had an account, a
14 separate account.
15 198 Q. Yes?
16 A. For a while.
17 199 Q. Yes?
18 A. And it is only, recently because of the communication
19 we received from you...(INTERJECTION).
20 200 Q. Leaving that aside, just tell, me what you understood
21 to be the position? Did you understand that your
22 wife had a separate account?
23 A. I thought my wife had a separate account, yes.
24 201 Q. Yes. Did you ever get, did she or you ever get,
25 statements about it?
26 A. Yes, and Mary has — she didn't keep as complete
27 records as mine.
28 202 Q. Yes?
29 A. And I believe she has a few statements.
34
n
1 203 Q. Yes. Very well. You can get those for us?
2 A. Yes, absolutely, yes.
3 204 Q. You see the document that I referred you to earlier,
4 the closing of the College Trustee account — it is
5 page 117 in ours and it is "O^/S-24" in yours.
6 Would you look up that (Exhibit 4)?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 205 Q. There is a hand written note there at the left hand
9 column which refers to a sum of "£11,369" with the
10 "/Mary" opposite it?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 206 Q. That was money that was to be deposited in your
13 wife's account, is that not right?
14 A. Well, I think that was already in the Bank and what
15 Padraig was doing there — that is Padraig's hand
16 written note. It is not my note.
17 207 Q. It is hand written. It is Padraig's note?
18 • A. It is Padraig's. I have the original here
19 (INDICAXIKG).
20 208 Q. Yes?
21 A. And what Padraig was doing was probably responding
22 to a query from me saying, "What is the total in our
23 two accounts? Where are we," and he then did his
24 calculations and then put the two together and gave
25 me a total figure.
26 209 Q. No. However, I am asking you about your wife's
27 account?
28 A. Yes.
29 210 Q. There is a letter in the correspondence in which you
35
1 refer specifically to this, is there not?
2 A. There is, yes.
3 211 Q. Would you just look that up for me?
4 A. I have a letter here "OA/C -1" (Exhibit 12) .
5 212 Q. What is the...(INTERJECTION)?.
6 A. And I say:
7 "I enclose the sterling equivalent of
1/3 of the cheque for $3511.00 for
8 10,553. Please deposit one-third in my
a/c, one-third in Mary's a/c."
9
10 And one-third to somebody else.
11 213 Q. Yes. This is in 1991. This is May 1991?
12 A. Yes.
13 214 Q. You are referring to a third in Mary's account. It
14 is quite clear, is it not, that Mary had a separate
15 account?
16 A. Well, as I said, yes.
17 215 Q. She had?
18 ' A. I believed she had a separate account.
19 216 Q. She has documents showing us that separate account?
20 A. She has a few statements.
21 217 Q- A few statements?
22 A. She has nothing like the extent of statements or
23 correspondence that I have.
24 218 Q. Yes. Do you see there is another letter "0A/C-7n to
25 Padraig?
26 A. Yes.
27 219 Q. You say:
28 ".... I reviewed the figures we
discussed in approximately Sept/Oct
29 '89 "?
1
2 Yes.
3
4 "... Mary and myself corrected the
amounts in our accounts"?
5 Yes.
6 You are referring to the two accounts?
7 Yes.
8 Is that right?
9 Yes, yes.
10
11 "However, we got mixed up. The
balances were Mary £11,369.69"
12
13 and you £30,486.27?
14 That is right, yes.
15 Again, it is quite clear that she had a separate
16 account?
17 Yes.
18 There is an earlier reference in the correspondence
19 to a deposit opening in the name of, your then
20 fiancee, Ms. Claire Lynch in 1980?
21 That is right, yes.
22 Was that opened, do you know, in the name of
23 Ms. Claire Lynch?
24 My understanding was that it was and I think the
25 amount from memory was about £3,000.
26 Do you know was it maintained, or was it closed, or
27 what happened to it?
28 I have no idea because Claire and I then split up in
29 1981.
Appendix XV (74) (l)(b)
STATEMENTS AND DOCUMENTS PROVIDED BY MARY MEAGHER TO
THE INSPECTORS.
My husband, Patrick McCarroll and I got married in August 1986. At the beginning
of 1987 we went to live in the US. Initially my husband was working but I was not.
After a few months , in or around May 1987,1 also got work with the company my
husband was working with.
During the period we were working in the US, and I cannot be precise as to exactly
when, I started sending funds to my husband's account in Guinness and Mahon, as I
thought in Guernsey. I am not sure if I thought I had my own account at that time as
my husband dealt with communications with the bank except for one or two occasions
when I collected moneyfrom Padraig Collery.
To a very large extent I left the matter to be dealt with by my husband and Padrair
Collery, it was never a real concern of mine whether I had a separate account or not.
Subsequently when I saw the letter "M" on some of the statements I do remember
thinking I had my own account. When I did not receive a letterfrom the High Court
Examiners in January 2000 similar to the one my husband received we both assumed
that there must have only been one account and that Padraig Collery kept a record of
the individual deposits.
The only people I met in connection with Guinness & Mahon were Padraig Collery
and Joan Williams.
I did not keep very extensive records and I only have a few sheets of statements that I
located in old files. I attach copies of those statements for your attention. I also have
one record of an investment in Swiss Francs with the bank, but beyond a copy of the
statement I have no recollection of any further details of this investment.
I lived with my husband in the various countries he has mentioned to you in his
submissions and I attach a record of our residence locations.
1.1 Cayman Island Trust and Trust companies
1.1.1 Deed of Trust

I did not cause to be executed a Deed of Trust or other instrument in the Cayman
Islands.
1.1.2 Correspondence
None
1.1.3 First transfer of cash or assets
Thefirst cash I transferred to my/our account in Guinness & Mahon Guernsey would
have been approximately mid 1988 or early 1989.. I am not sure about this date and
have no records to support my memory.
1.1.4 Subsequent transfer of cash or assets
The only transfer of cash to andfrom my/our account that I have records for are the
attached. I do not recall, or have any other information whatsoever, relating to any
other transfers.
1.1.5 income from Trust
I did not have a Trust with Guinness and Mahon.
1.1.6 Settlor, John Furze or others
I never heard of the name John Furze until the extensive coverage in the press during
the last year or so. I never saw trust documents.
1.1.7 Letter of wishes, supplementary deed
I never executed a letter of wishes or supplementary deed.
1.1.8 Communications and instructions
I never communicated with a trustee. I only met Padraig Collery on a couple of
occasions to collect funds. I never discussed the detail'of the account with him; my
husband dealt with such discussions.
1.2 Irish residents with deposits in Cayman effecting withdrawals from
Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Ltd.
My husband and I were not resident in Ireland during this period.
I had no other current or deposit account with Guinness & Mahon. As mentioned
above I did have a Swiss Franc account Any funds that I withdrew were taken
through my husbands Irish Guinness and Mahon account
1.2.1 Name and address of person who informed of service.
My husband's accounts were set up before we got married.
1.2.2 Date first availed of and subsequent transactions
My statements indicate the first transaction as being prior to March 1989 (Swiss
Franc) and there may have been other statements.
1.2.3 Manner of lodgements
My husband dealt with all lodgements.
1.2.4 The manner of withdrawals
My husband would withdraw funds in cash or by cheque from the account he had in
Dublin.
1.2.5 If accounts Amiens Securities Ltd., Amiens Investments Ltd., Kentford
Securities Ltd., were used.
I never heard of these names.
1.2.6 Code number for account
I thought the Irtter M signified the funds in-my section of the account. The statements
I received all had the headings removed.
1.3 Irish residents with deposits in Cayman effecting withdrawals from
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited.
I had no deialings with that bank.
1.3.1 Name and address of person who informed of service.
Not applicable.
1.3.2 Date first availed of
Not applicable
1.3.3 Manner of lodgements
Not applicable
1.3.4 The manner of withdrawals
Not applicable
1.3.5 If accounts Amiens Securities Ltd., Amiens investments Ltd., Kentford
Securities Ltd., were used.
Not applicable
1.3.6 Code number for account.
Not applicable
1.4 Loans and Guarantees from Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Ltd.
Not applicable.
1.5 Loans and Guarantees from Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited in
conjunction with Kredietbank NV
None.
1.6 Exchange Control permission
Not applicable.
1.7 Guinness Mahon (Ireland) Ltd. with subsidiaries; Guinness Mahon
Jersey Ltd., Guinness Mahon Channel Islands Ltd., College
Trustees Ltd.
I was not aware of where the funds were actually located.
1.7.1 Name of person who informed of service
Not applicable.
1.7.2 Correspondence relating to setting up Trust
Not applicable.
1.7.3 Manner lodgements were effected
Not applicable.
1.7.4 Manner in which withdrawals were effected
Not applicable.
1.7.5 Date of first transfer of cash or assets
Not applicable.
1.7.6 Dates of subsequent transfers of cash or assets
Not applicable.
1.7.7 Dates income received
Not applicable.
1.7.8 Settlor, John Furze or other
I never heard of the name John Furze until the extensive coverage in the press during
the last year or so.
I do not believe this is applicable to me.
1.7.9 Letter of wishes or supplementary deed
Not applicable.
1.7.10 Methods of communication and copies of correspondence
Not applicable.
1.8 Identify following bodies
1.8.1 Bodies corporate in which I had an interest

None
1.8.2 Subsidiaries of such bodies corporate
None
1.8.3 Other entities related to such bodies corporate
None
1.8.4 All trusts with interest as Settlor, Trustee or beneficiary
None
The following table sets out where I wasresidentduring the period 1978-1996. The
dates are based on a variety of sources and can be readily vouched.
i Date *mmmm 'jjjj^liteliilw^lflillll^' h lliiiiiHilit'~'.'

29 Aug 86 Returned to Ireland to get married
Sept- Dec 86 Dublin, not working
Jan 87- June 89 St Louis, Missouri, USA
June 89 - April 91 Algarve, Portugal
April 91 - Oct 91 Kilkenny
Oct 91-Apr 92 Eglinton Park, Dunlaoghaire
Apr-Sept 92 2 Maretimo Gdns. West, Blackrock
Sept 92-May 95 Muscat, Oman
May 95 -Present Ireland
Mary Meagher
Dublin, 12th July 2000

Appendix XV (74) (1) (c)
11/ 5/91 B R O U G H T FORWARD
K)/ 6/91 30/ 6/91 Interest to 30/ 6/91 19578.90
334.37
:iM
jW/6/91
20133.27
C A R R I E D FORWARD
8/ 7/!! 8/ 7/51 m r ™ ^
Hii'l
c
£
31/ 7/91
im CARRIED F O R W A R D
€
A/A43M
ACCOUNT NUMBER 8000X633 PAGE 23

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: sterling
)1/ 5/92 BROUGHT FORWARD 22947.73

JO/ 6/92 30/ 6/92 Interest to 30/ 6/92 558. H
00/ 6/92 23505.87

CARRIED FORWARD
ZilZf-8?
L J ACCOUNT N -' a 80001633 PAGE
BALANCES s...v .N ARE IN: sterling
27
pO/11/92 BROUGHT F O R W A R D
1/12/92 25/11/92 DRAFT 22659.41
Bl/12/92 31/12/92 Interest t o 31/12/92 6000.00 382.9'.
16659.4]
31/12/92
CARRIED F O R W A R D 17042.35
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001633 PAGE
BALA 18"<OWNAREIN: Sterling
H/01/93 BROUGHT FORWARD 0.00

)4/01/93 31/12/92 LODGED 17042.35 17042.35
J7/01/93 07/01/93 IR2000 2140.00 14902.35
*5/01/93 19/01/93 IR5000 5250.00
;voi/93 25/01/93 LODGIT1 4000.00
51/01/93 '.3652.35
\ CARRIED FOHWARD
&8/02/93 BROUGHT FORWARD 13652.35
M/03/93 31/03/93 Interest to 31/03/93 202.07
11/03/93 im~>4.A2
V CARRIED FORWARD
- BLKJIHNJJ FAUFC 3
BALANCES S H O W N A R E IN: sterling
>1/03/93 BROUGHT FORWARD 13854.42

i0/04/93 20/04/93 PAST IK1400 463.16
jiO/04/93 13391. >f>

CARRIED F0RWARO
/Sfa o
7x
Appendix XV (74) (l)(d)
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Appendix XV (74) (1) (e)
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Appendix XV (74) (1) (f)
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Appendix XV (74) (1) (g)
Ansbacher Limited
A Membtr of the Htnry Atubadur Holdings PLC Mtnkant Banking Group
Please reply to: . P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, British West ladies
Phone: (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telex: CP 4305
Dublin! * Fax: (809) 949-7944
TeL 765144/763065 (809) 949-52*7
Fax: 612035
26th September, 1990.

M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness & Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
''•JJaz David,
Could you please arrange to wire transfer US$4,875.00 to
Morgan Guaranty Trust Co.,
23 Wall Street,
New York,
N.Y. 10005^
U.S.A. '
A.B.A. 021 000 238
for credit to
.Prudential Bache Account: 7220001V
for further credit to
A/C .Patrick McCarroll ESY-4205'86-8R
^please debit the post to.Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602
advising Sterling figure in due course'.
* * * •
• Yours sincerely,
J - '
• /
J.D. Travnor.
JDT/AJW
EUGENE F COLLINS 2333929 HO.937 00]
EUGENE F. COLLINS
Joint Inspectors
vJ Ffoor "
i'ndeat" House I-.[j y
Ti=T CflJI^ltCS
Biackrock 3 Burlifytt*; Wiwi
Co. Dublin OuWifi 4
Tel: '353 1 2X1 6'IDO
By post & by fa*: 2833929 Fax: -3'J J I G67 5200
DX ?R>
Email: •jvvycrgefc ie
Website: wi.vw.cfc ic-
f TL/PH/M23660.001 28* September 2001
Re; Ausbacher (Cayman) Limited

Our clicnt: Mrs. Mary Meagher - McCarroll
Patrick McCarroll (dcccased)
Dear Sirs,
We refer to your letters of 18m September 2001 addressed, in the first instance, to our client personally
but also as the legal personal representative of Patrick McCarroll deceased. We represent Mrs. Meagher
McCarroll both La her own right and as executrix of her late husband's estate and are corresponding
wiih you therefore in respect of both letters. We appreciate that die late Mr. McCarroll was formerly
represented by John P. O'Malley & Company but they are aware of our present involvement.
W-: mention, as an aside, lhat your correspondence to our client arrived on the anniversary of her
!Jutland's death.
We refer to the statements attached to your two letters and to the preliminary conclusion in each
in stance that both the late Mr. McCarroll and his widow Mrs Mary Meagher - McCarroll were clients of
Ansbacher. We fmd such a conclusion, and particularly its non qualification, perverse in all the
circumstances that exist and the evidence that is available. We propose to deal with thefindings in each
case separately:
1: Mr. Patrick McCarroll (deceased)
In a statement preceding your preliminary conclusions at paragraph 3, you accurately detailed

Mr. McCarroll's background. The contents of paragraph 2 are of particular relevance and
includes the sentence "if would appear that his funds, in common with those of many persons
whose fimds were managed by College Trustees, were deposited subsequently in Ansbacher
r.,irtna rs f-ri -..-,-„ ; Jr i "..':.:••.>•(./.ii; K-ic-acI </.• •I<-m

i <V~*. 3>
.v a T>
ir<y lag got? GefStl CoM iic-. O fv? ifwsu \A:iwt> J.w u liCliM
r'J-.vr ly <•:.•• vuiO--;Ti-,ctr Associates i .*rr> M.-i*o'rr c< £ S*k4U ichn Coitc-llo H.;L-.,-y 0'v..l,-."r" I- H.iom O'NCi.-i
Lii WcAc'r-A Gf j •'ic 0 ' j c - 3 fv, iv D«ta';ii Koi'y Vvihjm i y i w MIGI#:I» r-.i,-:i
Consultants Va-ga-er ajrca-Sta^nton Sutn fi-My
without his knowledge." (emphasis added). Despite this apparent acceptance of fact, you
conclude that the late Mr. McCarroll was a "client" of Ansbacher. We attach an extract from the
Oxford dictionary which defines the word client as fallows "a person using the services of any
professional; a customer". In our view such a relationship is based on contract, one of the
essential criteria of which is to form an intention to create legal relations. We ask rhetorically
how one can form legal relations with an entity of whose existence you are blissfully unaware?
In the exhibits attached to your statement there are included statements from G + M Bankers. It
was to this institution that Mr. McCarroll lodged his money in the belief that an offshore account
had been set up for him in Guernsey. Some of the statements originate from the bank in that
jurisdiction and only one of those we have seen makes reference "Guinness & Mahon Cayman
Trust Limited". We would also refer you to the evidence given by the late Mr. McCarroll in his
interview with you on 19th June 2000 when he was very clear in his testimony about the nature
of his relationship with Guinness & Mahon and his instructions to Padraig Collery with regard to
his funds.
Although the narrative contained in your statement reflects the late Mr. McCarroll's status as a
non-resident, no-where is this referred to in your preliminary conclusions. You will doubtless
be aware of the stigma attaching to anyone found to be the holder of an Ansbacher account. If
Mr. McCaiToli had been knowingly such an account holder (which is patently not the case) there
would have been nothing untoward about that situation because throughout the years in question
Mr. McCarroll was resident and working outside the jurisdiction and was not therefore subject to
Irish Income Tax. You will be aware from his evidence to you that he took professional advice
on his position and was careful not to contravene Irish tax laws.
If it is still your intention, despite everything we have said, to persist with your preliminary
conclusions, it is absolutely essential that you qualify thatfinding by inclusion of the additional
facts:-
(a) Mr. McCarrol l's alleged status as a client of Ansbacher was without his knowledge; and
(b) Mr. McCarroll was nan resident for tax purposes throughout the period in question and
was therefore fully entitled to maintain an offshore account.
16:^9 EUGEME F C O L L I N S 2333929 MO. 9
2. Mrs. Mary Meagher McCarroll
Everything we have outlined in respect of the late Patrick McCarroll applies equally in relation
to his wife. All the more so in her case because she appears not to have instructed Guinness &
Mahon directly but relied on her husband to do so.. No attempt was made by the late Mr.
McCarroll to hide the fact that his wife also had an account with Guinness & Mahon and that
these funds were held offshore because there was nothing unusual or unlawful in that situation.
Again we would contend that is all the circumstances of the case and in the light of the evidence
made available to you, it is perverse to conclude that Mrs. Meagher McCarroll was a "client" of
Ansbacher. If you nonetheless persist in thisfinding it would be contrary to the principles of
fairness and natural justice if you did not qualify your findings in the same way as we have
outlined above in Mr. McCarroU's case.
W;; look forward to hearing from you and would emphasise that all communications should be directed
to this office.
Yarn-*: fairiifiillv
Eugene F, Collins
Appendix XV (75) Mr Patrick McCarroll, deceased
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Patrick McCarroll.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Patrick McCarroll dated 19 June 2000.
b) Guinness Mahon Guernsey Limited ledger statement of 18 March 1980.
c) Guinness Mahon Bankers ledger statement re Guinness Mahon Guernsey

of 31 December 1979.
d) GMCT statement re College Trustees Limited of 31 March 1982.
e) Unheaded ledger statement re A/A43P - a/c no. 80001632 - of 3 October

1990.
f) Letter of 26 September 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
g) Unheaded ledger statement re A/A43P - a/c no. 80001632 - of 31

December 1990.
h) Letter of 19 February 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
i) Letter of 25 November 1992 - Hamilton Ross Company Limited to IIB.
j) Letter of 3 September 1991 - Patrick McCarroll to Padraig Collery.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Patrick McCarroll.
a) Letter of 28 September 2001 - Eugene F Collins to Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. PATRICK McCARROLL
UNDER OATH
ON MONDAY, 19TH JUNE 2 0 00
I hereby certify the
following to be a true and
accurate transcript of my
shorthand notes in the
above named interview.
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. PATRICK MCCARROLL
Represented by: MR. JOHN 0'MALLEY
JOHN P 0'MALLEY
SOLICITORS
38 PERCY PLACE
DUBLIN 4
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. p. MCCARROLL MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON MONDAY,
2 19TH JUNE 2000:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McCarroll, we will
5 start our interview then.
6 Mr. McCarroll, my name is Declan Costello and on my
7 right is Ms. Mackey. We have been appointed, as you
8 know, Inspectors by The High Court.
10 I should explain to you at the outset we are, of
11 course, not a Court. We are not a Tribunal. This
12 is an interview.
13
14 If in the course of the questions that we ask you
15 you wish to take advice from your legal advisors
16 please tell us so and we will stop asking you
17 questions.
18
19 Similarly, if Mr. O'Malley wishes to advise you on
20 any question that we are asking you he can indicate
21 this to us and we will stop asking you questions and
22 you can take legal advice.
23
24 Your evidence Mr. McCarroll will be taken under
25 oath. I will now ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to
26 administer the oath to you.
27
28
29
4
1 MR. PATRICK MCCARROLL, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS
2 EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McCarroll, I think it
5 probably would be most
6 convenient if you could start off by giving us a
7 brief summary of your professional career; could you
8 do that for us?
9 A. Yes. I am an architect. I qualified from UCD
10 in 1976. I worked in Dublin for two years and then
11 I got an employment opportunity with an Irish
12 company who were setting up an office in Sudan. In
13 1978 I left Ireland and I worked as an architect
14 running a practice in Khartoum in Sudan for four
15 years. I left that company and in 1982 I joined a
16 German consultancy company and I worked for them in
17 Baghdad. If I can give you a general picture is it
18 Okay?
19 2 Q. Yes?
20 A. Yes, and I worked there for approximately two years.
21 That was 1984. I then bought an architectural
22 practice in Nairobi in Kenya with two other guys and
23 I ran the practice in Kenya, again for a couple of
24 years. I then sold my interest in that practice and
25 I came back to Ireland. I got married in 1986 and
26 my wife and I left Ireland in January 1987 to work
27 in the United States, where we lived and worked for
28 two and a half years. I then worked for a German,
29 another German company, Euroactivade in Portugal. I
5
1 went straight from the United States to Portugal and
2 I worked for them for a couple of years. I then, in
3 1990/91, started discussions with first of all the
4 architects who were doing the work on Mount Juliet
5 and subsequently the owners of Mount Juliet
6 themselves.
7 3 Q. Sorry, what was the name of that?
8 A. Mount Juliet.
9 4 Q. Is that the name?
10 A. Mount Juliet is the name of the leisure & golf
11 course in County Kilkenny.
12 5 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I was involved in some work with them.
14 6 Q. You were a consultant, were you?
15 A. I was a consultant.
16 7 Q. Or an architect?
17 A. More project management.
18 8 Q. I see?
19 A. I managed the other consultants for Mount Juliet.
20 9 Q. Yes?
21 A. May I refer to my notes here?
22 10 Q. Yes, do, yes?
23 A. Just to make sure.
24 11 Q. Yes?
25 A. Yes. When I finished work with Mount Juliet I then
26 worked in Dublin with Mclnerney International on
27 project management work.
28 12 Q. Yes?
29 A. 1992, I then left Ireland again and I took up a
6
1 position in Muscat in Oman with an English company
2 called JSA Oman & Associates and I worked in Oman
3 with that company until the end of 1994,
4 approximately the end of 1994. I then set up as a
5 sole trader and I became involved in work in
6 Eastern Europe and I have been really continuing
7 that type of work in Eastern Europe since 1995/96
8 and that is what I am doing at the moment. So, I
9 suppose you could describe my work now as
10 consultancy project management work.
11 13 Q. Yes. When you came back to Ireland in 1990/91 with
12 Mount Juliet did you come with your wife? Have you
13 a family? Have you children?
14 A. I have one son now but at that time we had no
15 children.
16 14 Q. Yes?
17 A. And when I came home it was a sort of a vague
18 situation because I was first of all asked by the
19 architects to Mount Juliet to work with them but at
20 that point, again from memory, I don't think they
21 had signed a contract with Mount Juliet. So, I had
22 discussions with -- Campbell Conroy Hickey were the
23 architects. I had discussions with them about the
24 possibility of working with them. I came home for a
25 series of meetings with them and during that period
26 I got to know Tim Mahony and the people in
27 Mount Juliet.
28 15 Q. Yes?
29 A. And during that time I was asked by Mount Juliet if
7
1 I would like to join them. The position that I was
2 offered was portrayed as a very nice and very
3 interesting position with long-term prospects. At
4 this time my wife was still living -- I still rented
5 a house in Portugal and my wife was still there and
6 we were trying to decide whether we would come home
7 full-time or not. We made that decision, I think,
8 in about early 1991 and I rented a house in Kilkenny
9 and then Mary came back.
10 16 Q. You decided that you would come home?
11 A. We decided we would come home. Again, I had no
12 contract.
13 17 Q. Yes?
14 A. And I had no, you know, full long-term contract.
15 18 Q. Very well then. In 1992 then you left Ireland and
16 you went to Oman, is that not right?
18 19 Q. And then you went to Eastern Europe?
19 A. Yes .
20 20 Q. Have you any residence here in Ireland then since
21 then?
22 A. Yes, I have a house. I bought a house in Ireland at
23 the beginning of 1993.
24 21 Q. Yes?
25 A. And while we were away in Oman we rented out that
26 house.
27 22 Q. Yes?
28 A. My wife became pregnant in 1995 or we had a child in
29 August 1995 and I think in approximately May or June

1 1995 we came back and Mary started living in the
2 house.
3 23 Q. Yes?
4 A. And I was travelling quite a bit.
5 24 Q. Yes. I want to ask you Mr. McCarroll some questions
6 about the bank statements that you forwarded to us.
7 If we take them in chronological order it is tab 11
8 in ours. I think you have "OA/S-53"; have you got
9 that in your file there (Exhibit 1)?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I have it.
11 25 Q. If we could just look at these briefly?
12 A. Yes .
13 26 Q. If we work from the earliest date forward, and the
14 document I have at page 88, and you have headed it
15 as OA/S-53. It is the 30th November 1979. A sum is
16 brought forward. Have you got that document
17 (Exhibit 1)?
18 A. Yes, I have, yes.
19 27 Q. Do you see the top there: "P McCarroll Esq." and

then "CP"?
20 A. Yes .
21 28 Q. And then: "Call"?
22 A. Yes .
23 29 Q. If you just move on to a document that is headed
24 "G & M Bankers," and it is a ledger. It is
25 November 197 9. Have you got that?
26 A. Which is my reference?
27 30 Q. It is the next page, I think. I have not got your
28 reference. It is 52. It would be 52 (Exhibit 2)?
29 A. Yes, yes.
1 31 Q. Do you see this: "C --" This has changed now. This
2 is a different document. The account name is:
3 "C/P Guinness Mahon Guernsey Limited"?
4 A. Yes.
5 32 Q. It is sterling currency, non-resident call
6 account and there is an account number there; do you
7 see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 33 Q. That is your account, is it not?
10 A. Yes, that is. I presume this is the one I sent you?
11 34 Q. Yes?
12 A. Yes, that is my account, yes.
13 35 Q. Your name is not on it and throughout this there is
14 this code "C/P", which refers to you?
15 A. I wasn't aware that that "C/P referred to me.
16 36 Q. How could this refer to you? There is no reference
17 to you on that document, is there?
18 A. No.
19 37 Q. Or in any of these documents your name does not
20 appear, the account name?
22 38 Q. This is an account in the name of
23 Guinness Mahon Guernsey in Guinness & Mahon
24 in Dublin, here in Dublin, is that right?
25 A. It is -- no, it is Guinness Mahon Guernsey.
26 39 Q.
27 Is the account not from your -- is the account not
28 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
29 A. No, not that account.
10
1 40 Q. Not that account?
2 A. No.
3 41 Q. What is " G & M Bankers"? Is that
4 the...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. Guinness & Mahon Bankers.
6 42 Q. Yes?
7 A. Who had a bank in Guernsey.
8 43 Q. In Guernsey?
9 A. In Guernsey, yes.
10 44 Q. Yes. Do you recall these coming? Did these come to
11 you from Guernsey or did they come to you from
12 Dublin?
13 A. The account statements actually weren't sent to me
14 on a regular basis.
15 45 Q. Yes?
16 A. And because I was away so much...(INTERJECTION).
17 46 Q. Yes?
18 MR. 0'MALLEY: Sorry, if I may?
19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.
20 MR. 0'MALLEY: Just for a moment?
22 MR. 0'MALLEY: Maybe Mr. McCarroll will
23 just explain.
25 MR. 0'MALLEY: When he left Ireland in --
26 when he left Ireland
27 originally what happened the account he had with
28 Guinness & Mahon at that point. It might help to
29 just explain these various statements.

1 47 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes?
2 A. Actually I just wonder would it be useful if I
3 explained how I came to deal with Guinness & Mahon?
4 48 Q. Yes?
5 A. And how that lead into my accounts?
6 49 Q. I was going to ask you about that. However, if you
7 like to take it in that order do?
8 A. I think it might help...
9 50 Q. Very well then?
10 A. ... help to clarify it.
11 51 Q. Very well then. Yes?
12 A. My father was the Managing Director of a company,
13 a construction company, in Galway called
14 Malachy Burke Contractors. In the early to mid
15 1970's that company was approached or there was
16 negotiations to be taken over by the Moy Group.
17 52 Q. Yes?
18 A. And the Moy Group used Guinness & Mahon as their
19 financial advisors. I was at college at this time so
20 it is my memory of what my father told me.
21 53 Q. Yes?
22 A. But in the mid 1970's approximately the Moy Group
23 took over Malachy Burke Contractors and at that time
24 my father then sold some of his interest in the
25 company and he stayed on as Managing Director. My
26 father gave me and my sister £10,000 each.
27 54 Q. Yes?
28 A. And in my case he put the £10,000 into a deposit
29 account with Guinness & Mahon Dublin and I had that

1 money in that account. The Revenue were aware of
2 that money. When I left Ireland in 1978 I got some
3 tax advice and I asked Guinness & Mahon -- sorry, if
4 I go back. At that time I also had a current
5 account in Guinness & Mahon Ireland.
6 55 Q. Yes?
7 A. When I was leaving Ireland to go to work in Sudan I
8 asked Guinness & Mahon was it possible that they
9 could help me set up an off-shore account because
10 when I was living in Sudan I wanted to have money
11 either in sterling or dollars or whatever. They did
12 this and they opened an account for me in 1978 in
13 Guinness Mahon Guernsey. When I was abroad, in
14 dealing with that account, initially I corresponded
15 with Guinness Mahon Guernsey and subsequently most
16 of my communication went either through Martin Keane
17 or Padraig Collery in Guinness & Mahon Dublin but
18 even though the communication was going through
19 Dublin I was always under the impression, and I was
20 lead to believe, that my account was in Guinness
21 Mahon Guernsey.
22 56 Q. Yes?
23 A. I then noticed, when I was at home or if I asked for
24 a bunch of statements, for example that the tops
25 were cut off or that names were changing. It is
26 difficult now to give you a very clear sort of
27 feeling of what I felt or what I thought at the time
28 because I have had time to think back on this but I
29 think there are three relevant issues. The first
13
1 one is that my main priority was just to look -- I
2 used these accounts just as a savings account. I
3 didn't do much transactions, especially in the early
4 days.
5 57 Q. Yes?
6 A. My main focus was, "What is my balance," and when I
7 got accounts from Padraig, or statements from
8 Padraig, on different headings I didn't really care.
9 I know Padraig personally and I trusted him
10 implicitly. Once or twice when I actually met
11 Padraig in Dublin, and the issue arose, it was put
12 to me more that this was -- they had an opportunity
13 to get a better interest rate and that I was part of
14 something that might be termed an exclusive group of
15 people but it was very vague and in those terms.
16 58 Q. Yes?
17 A. My reaction to that was one of being amused and
18 amusement really because I felt that I was outside
19 the tax net. So, that I wasn't getting any
20 advantage from any exclusive group if you like
21 because I could have had my money in other off-shore
22 accounts but it was useful for me to have my money
23 with Guinness & Mahon because then I could top up my
24 local account if my overdraft ran up.
25 59 Q. Yes?
26 A. That is the background to the account.
27 60 Q. That is helpful Mr. McCarroll. I think if we go
28 through these documents it may help to clarify the
29 situation further?
14
1 A. Yes .
2 61 Q. If you could turn to the accounts we were looking
3 at. It is headed: "G & M Bankers" (Exhibit 2)?
4 A. Yes .
5 62 Q. Then it is account name: "C/P Guinness Mahon
6 Guernsey"?
7 A. Right.
8 63 Q. Did you understand that to mean that this was an
9 account in a bank called Guinness & Mahon Bankers
10 and the account in the bank was in the name of
11 Guinness Mahon Guernsey Limited?
12 A. I never looked at that heading in that kind of
13 detail.
14 64 Q. Yes?
15 A. I looked at it "Guinness Mahon Guernsey".
16 My impression was that my money was in
17 Guinness Mahon Guernsey and any companies that I
18 worked with and I asked them to transfer money
19 for me, I told them to transfer it to
20 Guinness Mahon Guernsey.
21 65 Q. In Guernsey?
22 A. In Guernsey.
23 66 Q. Yes, yes. If we just move on and it is in my file
24 at number 131 and it is the same account number but
25 the name has changed to College Trustees and it is
26 December 1981; have you got that (Exhibit 3)?
27 A. Which is my reference on that one?
28 MS. MACKEY: It is OA/S34.
29 A. Yes .
1 67 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: OA/S38. Have you got
2 that?
3 A. Yes, I will just open it up. Yes, I have it.
4 68 Q. Do you see this Mr. McCarroll? This is headed:
5 "Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited," and it has an
6 address in the Cayman Islands?
7 A. Right.
8 69 Q. It is: "C/P". It is this code again?
9 A. Yes.
10 70 Q. It is "College Trustees Limited"?
11 A. I see that, yes.
12 71 Q. You see the account number is exactly the same?
13 A. Right.
14 72 Q. Does this not appear to be a ledger account that
15 was held in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
16 and the account name is not your name but
17 College Trustees Limited with this code in front of
18 it, this same code?
20 73 Q. Yes. That is your funds? Those are your funds
21 quite clearly?
22 A. They are, yes.
23 74 Q. Yes?
24 A. The funds are mine, yes.
25 75 Q. Yes. If we move on the photostating does not appear
26 to have any top or title on them. Is that the
27 photostating do you think or was the subsequent
28 document without a heading?
29 A. Which ones, sorry?
16
1 76 Q. If you look on to the subsequent ones in that.
2 MS. MACKEY: The very next page.
3 77 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: The very next page?
4 A. The very next page, I see. Yes, yes (Exhibit 4).
5 78 Q. And the following pages; have you got all these?
6 A. Yes.
7 79 Q. The following pages?
8 A. Yes.
9 80 Q. There is no heading at all on these?
10 A. That is right, yes.
11 81 Q. Do you remember was there no heading on these or is
12 that the photostat?
13 A. No, I have the origins here.
14 82 Q. And is there a heading on it?
15 A. No.
16 83 Q. Yes. Could you just show me the original just so I
17 can see it?
18 A. Yes (Same Handed).
19 84 Q. Do you see this looks very like as if somebody had
20 cut off the heading, does it not?
21 A. It does, indeed, yes.
22 85 Q. I was going to ask you about that?
23 A. Yes.
24 86 Q. A number of these accounts have no headings. Would
25 I be correct in saying that it looks as if they had
26 been cut off, the headings had been cut off?
28 87 Q. And you did not do it?
29 A. I didn't do it, no.
17
1 88 Q. Yes. So, we have accounts. None of these accounts
2 are in your name and the later accounts, that we
3 have just been looking at, the heading has been cut
4 off?
5 A. Yes .
6 89 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Collery why they cut the
7 heading off, or Joan Williams?
8 A. Well, again you see during a lot of this period I
9 was actually away and the statements came maybe in
10 bundles. When I saw the statements I was puzzled
11 occasionally but my main focus was that I was living
12 outside the Country and whatever was going on I
13 didn't see as affecting me.
14 90 Q. Yes, I understand all that?
15 A. Yes .
16 91 Q. I am wondering can you recollect did you say
17 something to Mr. Collery, "Why have you cut the head
18 off of these statements"?
19 A. No. I mean I am sure it came up once or twice when
20 I met him and again Padraig created this sort of a
21 vague feeling, or a vague environment, that this was
22 due to some kind of administrative thing, and that
23 we were part of a group, and that for privacy
24 reasons and that it was better that it was done this
25 way.
26 92 Q. Yes?
27 A. And I know it may seem strange now but when I dealt
28 with Padraig very often I dealt with him by phone
29 call or a letter, as you have seen in the file, and
18
1 if Padraig had said to me, "I am going to move your
2 money here, there or anywhere," I would have said,
3 "Fine".
4 93 Q. When he is talking for privacy reasons, that could
5 mean that the amount of funds would not be known
6 because of tax reasons but that did not concern you,
7 is that what you are telling me?
8 A. I had no...(INTERJECTION).
9 94 Q. You were...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. That didn't worry me at all.
11 95 Q. As far as you were concerned you were not liable for
12 tax?
14 96 Q. Yes. Could I just look at the last one in this
15 bunch, it is OA/S24 (Exhibit 4)?
16 A. Yes.
17 97 Q. Do you see there are handwritten figures on that?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 98 Q. Do you see towards the end there there is,
20 "£11, 369.65," and then, "/M, " after it and then
21 underneath that, "£30,486.27," and then, "P"?
22 A. Yes, I do, yes.
23 99 Q. That was a division between your wife and yourself?
25 100 Q. The next bunch of documents I went to refer to you
26 is a completely different format and they are
27 OA/S23; have you got that (Ecxhibit 5)?
28 A. Yes, I have those, yes.
29 101 Q. Do you see the format?
19
1 A. Yes.
2 102 Q. Again, it is quite clearly a continuation of the
3 sum. Do you see £30,486.27 is lodged to it?
4 A. Yes, I see that, yes.
5 103 Q. Do you see the format is different in that it starts
6 off with the date, the value date and then
7 description and if you look back at the other
8 documents the other documents are different: They
9 have a date; they have particulars; they have a
10 value date, and debit?
11 A. Yes.
12 104 Q. It is a different computer record?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 105 Q. In my photostat there is no title at all on that.
15 Is that on yours?
16 A. That is correct, and I have, if you like, my
17 original is actually a photostat in itself.
18 106 Q. Yes?
19 A. That is what I received.
20 107 Q. That is what you received?
21 A. Yes.
22 108 Q. Yes. Could we just move on through these because
23 they are all the same and it is all your account and
24 I want to draw your attention to OA/S-14 (Exhibt 6)?
25 A. Yes.
26 109 Q. Do you see that is page 14. It is a continuation of
27 it?
28 A. Yes.
29 110 Q. Do you see there is a code "A/A43P" above that?
20
1 A. Yes .
2 111 Q. Do you see there is an account number "80001632"?
3 A. Yes .
4 112 Q. Do you see that?
5 A. I do, yes, yes.
6 113 Q. The next page shows the same account number and a
7 number of other ones show the account number. Were
8 you made aware by Mr. Collery that a further change
9 had occurred with where your funds were deposited at
10 this period?
11 A. We were in about November 1990 now?
12 114 Q. Yes. You divided up -- you closed one account. You
13 sent some of it, your wife took some of it and you
14 took the other and it was put into a new account.
15 Were you told by Mr. Collery?
16 A. I wasn't told anything about that. The only thing I
17 requested was that when Mary and I were sending
18 money back that it was clearly identifiable what was
19 Mary's money and what was my money.
20 115 Q. Yes?
21 A. But I never asked Padraig to move my money from
22 Guernsey to any of these other places or whereever
23 it went.
24 116 Q. Yes?
25 A. I never made that request.
26 117 Q. Yes?
27 A. Later, from memory again, in say 1991/92 I then
28 became aware that there was an "Ansbacher" link if
29 you like.
1 118 Q. Yes?
2 A. I think because it appeared on one statement.
3 119 Q. Yes?
4 A. Or something.
5 120 Q. That is what I was coming to?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 121 Q. I will draw your attention to it in a moment?
8 A. Yes.
9 122 Q. However, it does appear that these new documents
10 that we have been looking at were from an account in
11 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin that was in the name of
12 "Ansbacher" Limited?
13 A. Yes.
14 123 Q. It was a coded account and you were identified by
15 the code number to which I have referred?
16 A. Correct.
17 124 Q. Was that made clear to you later on?
18 A. No.
19 125 Q. However... (INTERJECTION)?
20 A. In fact I never have any dealings I had with Padraig
21 I never used that code number.
22 126 Q. Yes?
23 A. And the only time that I used the code number, when
24 I saw the "P" or the "M" behind the code, was to
25 identify what was Mary's money and what was my
26 money.
27 127 Q. Yes. In some way you became aware then, presumably
28 from Mr. Collery that it was now in Dublin, in an
29 "Ansbacher" account in Dublin, is that right?
22
1 A. Well, no, I didn't think it was in Dublin and when I
2 was looking through my file last night it is
3 interesting I came across an instruction from when I
4 was in Portugal. There is a telex there from I
5 think Gudrun saying that the money has been
6 transferred to Guinness Mahon Guernsey as per my
7 instructions.
8 128 Q. Yes?
9 A. And that was I think 1990 as well.
10 129 Q. Yes?
11 A. So, at that point -- I know it seems a bit
12 schizophrenic but even though Padraig was sort of
13 moving funds my impression was that my money was in
14 an off-shore account.
15 130 Q. Yes?
16 A. And that whatever was happening with it was -- he
17 had reasons for doing that.
18 131 Q. For doing that. Yes?
19 A. Now, at some point, and I can't say for sure if this
20 is sort of retroactive analysis on my part but I
21 think there was an issue, that because some of these
22 statements were given to me from Dublin that at one
23 point I felt the reason the tops were cut off was
24 that it was simply they were coming out on
25 Guinness & Mahon Dublin notepaper and they shouldn't
26 have been.
27 132 Q. I see?
28 A. They should have been on "Ansbacher" or whatever.
29 133 Q. Yes?
1 A. But I cannot say for sure when that perception might
2 have been in my head.
3 134 Q. Yes. I would just like to refer you now to some
4 documents which is quite possibly you have not seen
5 them at all. It is page 27 Mary please. It is
6 Appendix 7 of the file. It is the letter of the
7 26th September 1990 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 7)?
8 A. Thank you.
9 135 Q. I will just explain to you what this is: This is a
10 letter from Mr. Traynor to Mr. Humphries in
11 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin. You will see the letter
12 is headed ""Ansbacher" Limited" with the address in
13 the West Indies and then:
14 "Please reply to 42 Fitzwilliam

Square."
15
16 That is Mr. Traynor's offices?
17 A. Yes .
18 136 Q. This is asking David Humphries to transfer a sum of
19 dollars to New York to the credit of -- the credit
20 is given:
21 "For further credit to a/c Patrick

McCarroll... ."?
22
23 A. McCarroll, yes.
24 137 Q. I am sorry, McCarroll?
25 A. Yes .
26 138 Q. Do you see then the following sentence:
27 "Please debit the cost to Ansbacher

Limited account number 13154602.
28 Advising sterling figures in due
course"?
29
1 A. Yes .
2 139 Q. I do not know whether you can recall getting that
3 money in US dollars in 1990?
4 A. I probably did but can I track it in my own
5 accounts?
6 140 Q. Yes?
7 A. Have you cross-checked with my account?
8 September 1990. On my code OA/S14, would that be
9 the transfer there, $4,875? OA/S14 on mine and
10 there is a debit to me there of $4,875 (Exhibit 8).
11 141 Q. What page is that?
12 MS. CUMMINS: Page 107, Judge, in our
13 brief.
14 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: 10...(INTERJECTION)
15 MS. CUMMINS: Page 107 of the brief.
16 142 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am not absolutely
17 certain we have it. Have
18 you been able to locate it?
19 A. I have it in mine here, yes.
20 143 Q. Where is it?
21 A. But you should have a copy of it.
22 144 Q. Where? What is it?
23 A. It is on my page "OA/S14."
24 MS. MACKEY: Yes. What transaction do
25 you say it is?
26 A. It is the 3rd of the 10th.
27 MS. MACKEY: I see. Do you see it
28 Judge? It is the last
29 one. You see the last transaction?

1 145 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. That is clear.
2 What I want to draw your
3 attention to is that you got that money and that the
4 money came from the "Ansbacher" account, that is
5 numbered there, in Dublin. Is that clear from the
6 letter, Mr. Traynor's letter (Exhibit 7)?
7 A. Yes. I never saw this.
8 146 Q. Of course?
9 A. This letter before.
10 147 Q. I am not for a moment suggesting that you knew Mr.
11 McCarroll that this happened. I am pointing out to
12 you that that is, in fact, what happened?
13 A. It appears to be, yes.
14 148 Q. It appears to be?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 149 Q. Similarly, I want to draw your attention another
17 transaction and this is a letter of the
18 25th November 1990. It is at page (Exhibit 10)
19 2. . . (INTERJECTION)
20 MS. MACKEY: It is page 29.
21 150 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, it is at page 29. It
22 is the 19th February 1991
23 (Exhibit 10). It is "Ansbacher" Limited's heading
24 and it is a letter to Mr. Waite in Guinness & Mahon.
25 It is from Mr. Traynor and:
26 "Could you please arrange to credit the

account of Mr. Patrick McCarroll with
27 Ir£4,000 and debit the sterling
equivalent to "Ansbacher" Limited... ."
28
29 Giving the same account number?

1 A. Yes.
2 151 Q. This was a sum being paid to you -- you had a
3 resident account here in Dublin, I think?
5 152 Q. You got £4,000 into that from the "Ansbacher"
6 account?
8 153 Q. There is one other document that I want to refer
9 you to and that is a letter of the 25th November
10 1992 and it is from Joan Williams to Mr. Redmond in
11 the Irish Intercontinental Bank (Same Handed)
12 (Exhibit 10)?
13 A. Yes.
14 154 Q. Do you see that it is a different company, the
15 notepaper. It is headed:
16 "Hamilton Ross Company Limited"?
17
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 155 Q. With an address in Cayman. It is:
20 "Please reply to 42 Fitzwilliam

Square."
21
22 It is addressed to Irish Intercontinental Bank and
23 it is:
24 "Dear Ronan, would you please arrange

to let me have for collection a
25 sterling cheque for stg£20,000 payable
to Mr. Patrick McCarroll and debit the
26 cost to Hamilton Ross account,"
27
28 and the account number is given?
29 A. Yes, yes.
27
1 156 Q. Did you know that your funds were in the IIB Bank
2 in the name of a company called Hamilton Ross
3 Company Limited?
4 A. No, I had no idea.
5 157 Q. Up to now have you ever heard of Hamilton Ross
6 Mr. McCarroll?
7 A. I have heard of the name and I am not sure if it is
8 in connection with anything that was in the
9 newspapers or not but I know that I didn't believe
10 any of my money had anything to do with Hamilton
11 Ross .
12 158 Q. Yes. You might have heard of it from the newspaper
13 accounts or do you think that Mr. Collery might have
14 said anything to you about it at any time?
15 A. I am afraid I can't say if Padraig mentioned
16 anything about Hamilton Ross to me.
17 159 Q. Yes?
18 A. I just don't. I don't remember.
19 160 Q. Again, Mr. McCarroll does it not look as if
20 Mr. Collery and/or Mr. Traynor, or whoever in
21 Guinness & Mahon, for whatever good reasons they
22 considered justified it, moved your funds around
23 without telling you, is that the position?
24 A. Yes. I think that if I received the money I would
25 have sent a letter or else had a phone call with
26 Padraig to say I needed funds for something and that
27 would have triggered this process.
28 161 Q. Yes?
29 A. But I mean I was not aware that Padraig was moving,
28
1 as it seems to have been, money from one institution
2 to another.
3 162 Q. Yes. I mean for example the £20,000 in 1992, I do
4 not know whether you can remember it or not but
5 presumably no doubt he would have sent you that
6 money because you asked for it?
8 163 Q. Yes?
9 A. And I can't find it here but I know that we bought
10 our house in the beginning of 1993 and I suspect
11 that those funds might be something to do with that.
12 164 Q. For the deposit or something?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 165 Q. Yes. Mr. McCarroll, this letter was from
15 Ms. Joan Williams. Had you met Ms. Williams? Did
16 you know her?
17 A. I think I met Joan once possibly twice and I know
18 that my wife, Mary, collected money once or twice
19 from the Cement Roadstone offices in Fitzwilliam
20 Square.
21 166 Q. Yes. When?
22 A. I think it was when I was away in Muscat.
23 167 Q. Yes?
24 A. Before Mary came out she collected money there.
25 168 Q. Yes. Did you ever yourself collect money there?
26 A. I possibly did. I can't say for sure but I possibly
27 did. I certainly was in the offices in Fitzwilliam
28 Square once or twice.
29 169 Q. Did you know Mr. Traynor?

1 A. No, I never met Mr. Traynor in my life.
2 170 Q. You never met him. Why did you go to his offices in
3 Fitzwilliam Square?
4 A. Because I had made an arrangement to meet Padraig,
5 either to collect money or to get a statement, and
6 usually -- well, it only happened once or twice but
7 we met close to there, sometimes in a pub; walked up
8 to Fitzwilliam; went in; Padraig would -- and I --
9 my memory now is that it was one or two statements
10 that I required and he would print off the statement
11 and give it to me.
12 171 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I know that Mary was in once or twice. She
14 collected money to pay a tax bill when I had left
15 Ireland and that she collected cash from Padraig to
16 pay that tax bill. That was in early 1993.
17 172 Q. Was any explanation given to you as to why you did
18 not go to the bank to get the money? Why did you go
19 to Mr. Traynor's offices?
20 A. At that stage I found it strange when we were
21 dealing with Padraig and everything had moved out of
22 the Bank.
23 173 Q. Out of the Bank?
24 A. Out of the Bank.
25 174 Q. Yes?
26 A. I mean when the connection with Fitzwilliam Square
27 -- I remember I think Mary went first, I am not sure
28 if she went first or Padraig had made an arrangement
29 to meet her there first, and I remember being
30
1 puzzled, I am not sure if I was here, as to why what
2 that was the case.
3 175 Q. Did he explain it to you? Did Padraig explain it to
4 you?
5 A. Well, I didn't. You see I was away and
6 Mary...(INTERJECTION).
7 176 Q. When you came back you did not ask him, "Why have
8 you moved from the Bank"?
9 A. I didn't, no.
10 177 Q. Did you know that, in fact, he had left the bank?
11 A. At a certain point I became aware of that but I am
12 not sure exactly when I became aware of that.
13 178 Q. Yes?
14 A. As far as I remember I closed that account in 1993
15 for a number of reasons and it would have been some
16 -- shortly before that time that I became aware that
17 Padraig had left the bank.
18 179 Q. Did you sever your connections with Padraig then in
19 1993?
20 A. Not totally because socially -- if I was at home I
21 would sometimes ring him and just meet him for a
22 drink or so.
23 180 Q. No, I should have made it clearer. What I am asking
24 you is about what happened to your funds which had
25 been on deposit which Mr. Collery was looking after
26 for you? Did you close your account with Guinness &
27 Mahon in 1993?
28 A. I did, yes, and I moved the funds, again from
29 memory, to a Standard Chartered off-shore account.
31
1 181 Q. Yes. I am really not concerned with your private
2 affairs. I am just concerned with "Ansbacher" and
3 The Guinness & Mahon Group?
4 A. Right.
5 182 Q. Did you sever all connections financially with
6 "Ansbacher" in 1993?
7 A. Yes .
8 183 Q. Yes?
9 A. Yes, and I, from memory again, I think I had closed
10 my resident, my Irish, account in 1991. It is in
11 the file any way.
12 184 Q. Yes. Was there any specific reason why you ceased
13 having a commercial relationship with Guinness &
14 Mahon or "Ansbacher" or Collery?
15 A. I found that I was travelling a lot and we were away
16 and that it was a bit difficult having money tied up
17 with Guinness & Mahon, or that account with Padraig,
18 when I couldn't get credit card facilities on it.
19 Financial transactions had changed a lot and I
20 needed much more direct access to my own money.
21 185 Q. Yes?
22 A. Whether it was credit card based or whatever.
23 186 Q. Yes?
24 A. This would again be very much a perception but I got
25 the feeling that Padraig was encouraging me, in 1983
26 or late 1992, to stop the connection with him on the
27 financial side.
28 187 Q. Did he explain why?
29 A. He didn't, no. I remember mentioning it to Mary
32
1 afterwards and I said I felt that may be we were too
2 small. We were not of interest to them.
3 188 Q. Yes. If we move on then Mr. McCarroll to some other
4 topics. In relation to your wife, did she have an
5 off-shore account in Guernsey too?
6 A. We got married in 1986 and I had had my
7 Guinness & Mahon account, my Guernsey account,
8 since 1978.
9 189 Q. Yes?
10 A. And shortly after we got married, in 1987/88/89, we
11 were working in the States and I think that during
12 that time I communicated with Padraig and I said,
13 "Mary is earning money in the States," and we put it
14 into an account with Guinness & Mahon
16 190 Q. What was your wife's occupation?
17 A. An architect. She is also an architect.
18 191 Q. She is an architect?
19 A. Yes, and when I got the letter in relation to this I
20 was actually surprised because I thought Mary would
21 get a letter too because I thought she had had an
22 account also.
23 192 Q. Yes?
24 A. And then when we saw that she didn't get a letter I
25 said may be this code, the "P" and "M", was
26 something Padraig managed.
27 193 Q. Yes?
28 A. To just identify the money, what was Mary's and what
29 was mine.
1 194 Q. Yes?
2 A. But that is just surmising.
3 195 Q. So as I understand, it does appear then that your
4 wife lodged money in Guernsey?
5 A. Yes.
6 196 Q. When she was in the States, is that right?
7 A. Yes, the mechanism would be that we would have just
8 sent a cheque to Padraig, a dollar cheque may be,
9 and just credited it to the account.
10 197 Q. I would like you to be a little more specific. You
11 see you had an account but it does appear from the
12 documents that your wife had an account too?
13 A. Yes, I thought that my wife had an account, a
14 separate account.
15 198 Q. Yes?
16 A. For a while.
17 199 Q. Yes?
18 A. And it is only recently because of the communication
19 we received from you...(INTERJECTION).
20 200 Q. Leaving that aside, just tell me what you understood
21 to be the position? Did you understand that your
22 wife had a separate account?
23 A. I thought my wife had a separate account, yes.
24 201 Q. Yes. Did you ever get, did she or you ever get,
25 statements about it?
26 A. Yes, and Mary has -- she didn't keep as complete
27 records as mine.
28 202 Q. Yes?
29 A. And I believe she has a few statements.
34
1 203 Q. Yes. Very well. You can get those for us?
3 204 Q. You see the document that I referred you to earlier,
4 the closing of the College Trustee account -- it is
5 page 117 in ours and it is "OA/S-24" in yours.
6 Would you look up that (Exhibit 4)?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 205 Q. There is a hand written note there at the left hand
9 column which refers to a sum of "£11,369" with the
10 "/Mary" opposite it?
12 206 Q. That was money that was to be deposited in your
13 wife's account, is that not right?
14 A. Well, I think that was already in the Bank and what
15 Padraig was doing there -- that is Padraig's hand
16 written note. It is not my note.
17 207 Q. It is hand written. It is Padraig's note?
18 A. It is Padraig's. I have the original here
19 (INDICATING).
20 208 Q. Yes?
21 A. And what Padraig was doing was probably responding
22 to a query from me saying, "What is the total in our
23 two accounts? Where are we," and he then did his
24 calculations and then put the two together and gave
25 me a total figure.
26 209 Q. No. However, I am asking you about your wife's
27 account?
28 A. Yes.
29 210 Q. There is a letter in the correspondence in which you
35
1 refer specifically to this, is there not?
2 A. There is, yes.
3 211 Q. Would you just look that up for me?
4 A. I have a letter here "OA/C -1" (Exhibit 12).
5 212 Q. What is the...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. And I say:
7 "I enclose the sterling equivalent of

1/3 of the cheque for $3511.00 for
8 10,553. Please deposit one-third in my
a/c, one-third in Mary's a/c."
9
10 And one-third to somebody else.
11 213 Q. Yes. This is in 1991. This is May 1991?
12 A. Yes.
13 214 Q. You are referring to a third in Mary's account. It
14 is quite clear, is it not, that Mary had a separate
15 account?
16 A. Well, as I said, yes.
17 215 Q. She had?
18 A. I believed she had a separate account.
19 216 Q. She has documents showing us that separate account?
20 A. She has a few statements.
21 217 Q. A few statements?
22 A. She has nothing like the extent of statements or
23 correspondence that I have.
24 218 Q. Yes. Do you see there is another letter "OA/C-7" to
25 Padraig?
26 A. Yes.
27 219 Q. You say:
28 ".... I reviewed the figures we

discussed in approximately Sept/Oct
29 '89 "?
36
2 A. Yes.
3 220 Q.
4 "... Mary and myself corrected the

amounts in our accounts"?
5 A. Yes.
6 221 Q. You are referring to the two accounts?
7 A. Yes.
8 222 Q. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 223 Q.
11 "However, we got mixed up. The

balances were Mary £11,369.69"
12
13 and you £30,486.27?
15 224 Q. Again, it is quite clear that she had a separate
16 account?
17 A. Yes.
18 225 Q. There is an earlier reference in the correspondence
19 to a deposit opening in the name of, your then
20 fiancee, Ms. Claire Lynch in 1980?
22 226 Q. Was that opened, do you know, in the name of
23 Ms. Claire Lynch?
24 A. My understanding was that it was and I think the
25 amount from memory was about £3,000.
26 227 Q. Do you know was it maintained, or was it closed, or
27 what happened to it?
28 A. I have no idea because Claire and I then split up in
29 1981.
37
1 228 Q. Yes?
2 A. And she went her separate way and...(INTERJECTION).
3 229 Q. And you have no idea what happened?
4 A. I have no idea what happened after that.
5 230 Q. Yes. Do you know if your father had an off-shore
6 account at all?
7 A. I don't believe he had. I can't say I am 100% sure
8 but I don't believe he had.
9 231 Q. Yes. Did he ever mention it to you?
10 A. No.
11 232 Q. That he had it?
12 A. No, no.
13 233 Q. What would make you consider that perhaps he might
14 have had it?
15 A. Well, I know that after he sold the company he was
16 encouraged by Guinness & Mahon to invest money with
17 them.
18 234 Q. Yes?
19 A. My mother had very negative feelings towards
20 Guinness & Mahon generally and it created a certain
21 amount of tension at home, that my mother really
22 didn't want anything to do with Guinness & Mahon.
23 235 Q. Yes?
24 A. And my father was being guided a bit by them. My
25 understanding was that quite shortly after selling
26 the company Dad actually moved away from them.
27 236 Q. From?
28 A. From Guinness & Mahon. I don't even know if he ever
29 had an account in Guinness & Mahon in Dublin.
38
1 237 Q. Yes. Is your father alive Mr. McCarroll?
2 A. No, he died in 1989.
3 238 Q. 19?
4 A. 89.
5 239 Q. 1989?
6 A. Yes .
7 240 Q. Did your mother have an account? Do you know did
8 she have an account?
9 A. No, she intensely disliked anything to do with them.
10 241 Q. Yes. There is reference in the correspondence to
11 investments. Mr. Collery refers to investments that
12 your mother had had, apparently in some way
13 connected, with Guinness & Mahon. Do you remember
14 this in the correspondence (Exhibit 18)?
15 A. Later in or about 1985 I took over the management of
16 my Mum and Dad's affairs because my Dad got
17 alzheimers and at one point while I was away I think
18 I invested some of Mum's money. Again, I am not
19 sure but I think I invested some of it for a while
20 in Guinness & Mahon in an account or something
21 managed by them, which I believe was managed by
22 Sean O'Dwyer.
23 242 Q. 0'Dwyer?
24 A. Sean O'Dwyer, yes.
25 243 Q. Yes?
26 A. I remember having some dealings with Sean O'Dwyer in
27 relation to my Mum's affairs at that time.
28 244 Q. Yes. Do you know if that was invested out of the
29 j urisdietion?
1 A. I don't. I don't believe it was because at that
2 time I would have been very careful about my
3 mother's status and her tax status.
4 245 Q. Yes. In some of the letters Mr. McCarroll had with,
5 in correspondence that you had with, Mr. Collery it
6 is perfectly clear that you were on very friendly
7 terms with him. However, in some of them you make
8 reference to sums of money in the Irish language.
9 Mr. McCarroll, was that a code of some sort, or was
10 it a joke, or why was it done?
11 A. I think that that might have been while I was in
12 Nairobi.
13 246 Q. Yes?
14 A. In the period about 1985/86.
15 247 Q. Yes?
16 A. And at that time the Nairobi Government -- they had
17 a tax group. I can't remember the name of the group
18 but they were a very -- a much feared
19 Kenyan Government outfit and my concern, I think, at
20 that stage would have been more concerned with the
21 Kenyan tax situation rather than the Irish tax
22 situation.
23 248 Q. Yes?
24 A. I wasn't worried about the Irish tax.
25 249 Q. Yes?
26 A. But I was concerned that if these people got in and
27 started checking what we were doing in a business
28 sense that it could, you know -- it would be
29 difficult for us to deal with it just purely in
40
1 administrative terms even.
2 250 Q. Yes?
3 A. All expatriates in Kenya and in Zimbabwe at that
4 time feared the local tax authorities.
5 251 Q. Yes. Was this an instruction then to Mr. Collery
6 with regard to investing these sums somewhere, do
7 you remember?
8 A. I think I remember a reference to a Se Cead. Is it
9 600?
10 252 Q. That is right. Yes?
11 A. And as far as I know, as far as I remember, it
12 sounds like it was a regular payment. I could
13 probably find out if I...(INTERJECTION).
14 253 Q. If you would have a look?
15 A. If I did a search I could probably find out.
16 254 Q. Yes. We will take a break now perhaps.
17 Mr. McCarroll, you can have a cup of tea or a cup of
18 coffee if you like here for about ten minutes?
19 A. Yes .
20 255 Q. And you might take the opportunity to look?
21 A. I will have a look.
22 256 Q. And see at your leisure?
23 A. There is another document that might be of interest
24 to you and that is that after I sent the file into
25 you I was corresponding with the Revenue and they
26 requested me to do a more detailed statement with
27 regard to my residency.
28 257 Q. Yes?
29 A. And it might be relevant if you had a copy of that

1 statement (Same Handed) (Exhibit 14).
2 258 Q. Very well. That would be very helpful. Thank you.
4 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
5 259 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will resume then
6 Mr. McCarroll and
7 Ms. Mackey would like to ask you some further
8 questions?
9 A. Yes.
10
11 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. PATRICK McCARROLL BY
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
42
1 MR. PATRICK MCCARROLL WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MS. MACKEY:
4 2 60 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. McCarroll, we were
5 talking there just before
6 the break about references that you made to sums of
7 money in Irish?
8 A. Yes.
9 261 Q. And we located those particular documents during the
10 break. If we could have, Mary, page 174 and 176 of
11 our brief. It is your "OAC-26" and "OA/-C-28
12 (Exhibit 15 & 16)"?
13 A. Yes.
14 262 Q. If we look at "OA/C-26" you have that one there, do
15 you (Exhibit 15)?
16 A. 26, yes.
17 263 Q. It is a letter from you from Nairobi in 1986?
18 A. Yes.
19 264 Q. To Padraig Collery?
20 A. Yes.
21 265 Q. Down on the third and fourth paragraph there you
22 say:
23 "Also please do se cead to the same

address as before"?
24
25 A. Yes, I have actually tracked it down. When I was
26 in Kenya I stayed originally with a person called
27 Roger Steadman.
28 266 Q. Yes?
29 A. And my agreement with Roger was that I paid him
43
1 rent. I stayed in his house with him. He was a
2 friend of mine and roger had an account, and he may
3 even have had an account with Guinness & Mahon at
4 one point.
5 267 Q. Yes?
6 A. And I paid him rent. Now, I can't remember but I
7 don't think it was 600. I think the rent I paid him
8 was something in the region of 150 a month, again
9 from memory.
10 268 Q. Yes?
11 A. Because I found a number of transfers and that would
12 be the only regular transfer.
13 269 Q. Yes?
14 A. As far as I can remember that I would made during
15 the time that I was in Kenya. So, I think that that
16 -- all of those do se cead are multiples of either
17 150 or 300, which I was sending to pay Roger for
18 staying in his house.
19 270 Q. Right. Similarly, then at "OA/C-28" there is
20 reference to 3 - se cead to the same address as
21 before?
22 A. Yes .
23 271 Q. And that is 1985, it is the previous November?
24 A. I think that is the same.
25 272 Q. That would be the same?
26 A. Because it would be -- again it is a multiple.
27 273 Q. Yes?
28 A. Like it is the same.
29 274 Q. Yes?
1 A. The same kind of figures.
2 275 Q. Yes. You mentioned just there before the break in
3 relation to that that you thought the reason for
4 putting it in Irish was probably the fear that
5 people living in Kenya had of the group at the time
6 that was working on behalf of the Government for the
7 Revenue?
8 A. Yes .
9 276 Q. Could you tell us a little bit more about what your
10 fear actually was there?
11 A. Well, I was staying with Roger at that point.
12 277 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I noticed that earlier -- in earlier
14 correspondence I wrote to Padraig and said, "Just
15 transfer money to Roger."
16 278 Q. Yes?
17 A. And then subsequently I turned it into transferring
18 Irish amounts. Now, I am surmising here but it
19 could be that I mentioned to Roger how I was
20 managing the transfers and he was a Kenyan resident.
21 He was an English person but he worked in Kenya for
22 a long time and had taken up residency. It was to
23 protect them.
24 279 Q. To protect him?
25 A. Him in that situation?
26 280 Q. Yes?
27 A. But, in what I said earlier, I would have been very
28 conscious of my role because if it became apparent,
29 because I was managing a company in Nairobi, that I

1 was making payments like this it would also get our
2 company into difficulty.
3 281 Q. In what way?
4 A. Well, because I was making a payment to Roger, and
5 the reason I was making it to him was so that he
6 wouldn't have to pay Kenyan tax on that money.
7 282 Q. Right, right. Was he involved in the company?
8 A. No, no.
9 283 Q. No?
10 A. No, he was just a friend.
11 284 Q. It was just because you as manager of the company?
12 A. Yes.
13 285 Q. You feared that would have implications for the
14 company?
15 A. Implications, yes.
16 286 Q. That you were...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. That I was managing it.
18 287 Q. Enabling a Kenyan...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. Facilitating that type of thing.
20 288 Q. Facilitating?
21 A. Yes.
22 289 Q. I see. Can I -- these are all little bits and
23 pieces and winding up of loose ends that I am doing
24 here now?
25 A. Okay.
26 290 Q. Can I ask you to have a look at another letter you
27 sent us? Sorry, I just have to locate it here now?
28 A. Okay.
29 291 Q. Yes, it is your "OA/C-104". Page 218 of our
46
1 documents. Have you located it yet (Exhibit 17)?
2 A. Yes, 104, yes.
3 292 Q. This is going back now to 1979 and it is a letter
4 that you wrote. It is un-headed. We do not see
5 where the letter was written from but it is
6 addressed to Martin of Guinness & Mahon, which I
7 take to be Martin Keane?
8 A. Martin Keane, yes.
9 293 Q. Yes. This is the stage that you were talking to us
10 earlier about, where you began to find that it would
11 be useful to have a cheque book or credit card
12 facilities and you were asking if it was possible to
13 have one with G & M in Guernsey and you say:
14 "Please write and let me know if it is

feasible for me to have a current
15 account with G & M in Guernsey..."
16
17 and then in brackets,
18 "(or advisable)"?
19
20 A. Yes.
21 294 Q. Why were you saying that?
22 A. Because at that time, when I went away, the whole
23 question of residency and domicile was very
24 confused.
25 295 Q. Yes?
26 A. And my father, when I was going away, advised me to
27 get advice and I got advice from a senior person in
28 KPMG.
29 296 Q. In KPMG?
47
1 A. In KPMG.
2 297 Q. Who was that?
3 A. He is still in KPMG in Cork, Sean -- I can get the
4 name. He is a partner, I think, in Cork.
5 298 Q. In KPMG in Cork?
6 A. In cork.
7 299 Q. Right?
8 A. And his advice was that for clarity you should avoid
9 any -- even though I was away I was non-resident and
10 that. He said -- there were a number of things. I
11 can't remember them now but he said the source of
12 the money that I was getting paid, it must be clear
13 that it wasn't from Ireland and that I mustn't have
14 it domiciled here and a number of other issues.
15 300 Q. Yes?
16 A. And when I was doing any transactions like this and
17 I had just -- I had gone away in 1978.
18 301 Q. Yes?
19 A. And I would have been extremely nervous that my
20 non-resident status was clear and that there was no
21 ambiguity and that I couldn't actually somehow be
22 brought back into the tax net.
23 302 Q. Yes, yes?
24 A. And it would be in that context that I wrote
25 something like that.
26 303 Q. Right. Why would you think it might not have been
27 advisable for you to have a cheque book in relation
28 to an off-shore account?
29 A. Well, again, I know that the company I worked for,
48
1 which was GBWA International, which was an
2 International company branch of an Irish company,
3 Gleason Byrne Wheelan. I know that during my
4 time...(INTERJECTION).
5 304 Q. Sorry, what was the Irish company?
6 A. Gleeson Byrne WhelanGleeson Byrne Wheelan.
7 A. Whelanright.
8 A. And I know that during my period with them they did
9 make a mistake in a payment to me and they in a
10 subsequent revenue audit -- actually this arose and
11 they said, "Well, you have made a payment from
12 Dublin to me".
13 305 Q. Yes?
14 A. And you should, you know.
15 306 Q. Right?
16 A. "Is it liable for tax?"
17 307 Q. Yes?
18 A. And I don't know the detail. I know that they got
19 into a bit of trouble about that and I think that
20 they actually had to pay that.
21 308 Q. Yes?
22 A. I am not sure about that.
23 309 Q. Yes, yes?
24 A. But the expats at that time -- I mean it was very --
25 you were very nervous when you are away about trying
26 to maintain your non-residency status.
27 310 Q. Yes, yes. Can I ask you to look then at another
28 letter? It is "OAC/30" Exhibit 18)?
29 A. Yes, yes.
1 311 Q. This is a letter from Mr. Collery to you when you
2 were in Kenya in October 1985?
3 A. Yes.
4 312 Q. He is giving you various pieces of information?
5 A. Yes.
6 313 Q. However, in the third paragraph he says:
7 "Last week I had a visit from one of

the tenants with the rent."
8
9 Were these tenants of your apartment building in
10 Killiney?
11 A. In Killiney, yes.
12 314 Q.
13 "He said he is going to pay it direct

to me each month; do you wish to be
14 advised each time on receipt."
15
16 Why were the tenants paying Mr. Collery?
17 A. I presume they were just -- I think that that money
18 was going into my local account.
19 315 Q. Was Mr. Collery dealing with your local account?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 316 Q. He was?
22 A. My Guinness & Mahon account. I had two accounts in
23 Guinness & Mahon.
24 317 Q. Yes?
25 A. One was an Irish resident account.
26 318 Q. Yes. Do you know which account it went into?
27 A. I gave you copies. No, I haven't cross-checked that
28 against...(INTERJECTION).
29 319 Q. Right?
50
1 A. But I think you have all my statements
2 from...(INTERJECTION).
3 320 Q. Yes. What I am really asking you about is, at the
4 time did you know which account it was going into?
5 A. I ... (INTERJECTION) .
6 321 Q. I mean I presume the tenant did not come to
7 Mr. Collery without previous arrangement by
8 yourself?
9 A. No, no.
10 322 Q. Or instruction to the tenant to go to Mr. Collery?
11 A. No, I would have asked. I think that tenant was a
12 person called -- I think it was Harry Merrick.
13 323 Q. Yes?
14 A. And Harry would have sent the money into Padraig.
15 324 Q. Yes?
16 A. On a regular basis.
17 325 Q. Yes?
18 A. And...(INTERJECTION).
19 326 Q. What normally happened to the rents? Where did they
20 normally go?
21 A. In 1985 I can't remember it. I mean occasionally I
22 might have got my sister to collect the rent.
23 327 Q. Yes?
24 A. And -- now, again I am surmising here because I
25 can't remember.
26 328 Q. Yes?
27 A. But I presume I set up an arrangement like that just
28 so that my family wouldn't have to be involved in
29 collecting rent.
51
1 329 Q. How many tenants did you have?
2 A. You mean over a period how many different tenants?
3 330 Q. No, at a given time?
4 A. It was Harry and a friend of his, two guys.
5 331 Q. Right. It was just one apartment, was it, that you
6 had?
7 A. One apartment, yes.
8 332 Q. I see?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 333 Q. Yes. This would relate to the entirety of the rent
11 then?
12 A. Yes.
13 334 Q. It was not just one tenant paying rent to
14 Mr. Collery?
15 A. No, it was... (INTERJECTION) .
16 335 Q. And the other tenants...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. No, it was everything.
18 336 Q. Yes, I see?
19 A. That was all the rent.
20 337 Q. Yes, I see. Mr. Collery asks you, do you wish to be
21 advised each time of receipt. Do you recollect what
22 you wanted at that time or whether...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. I don't recollect but knowing how I dealt with him
24 over many years I would have said "no", you know.
25 338 Q. Yes?
26 A. All I wanted was to see occasionally on a statement
27 that everything was Okay.
28 339 Q. Yes?
29 A. I mean I didn't even get regular statements sent to
52
1 me when I was abroad. They tended to go to either
2 my sister's house or my Mum's house.
3 340 Q. However, for your resident current account, that
4 would have had regular statements, wherever they
5 went?
6 A. Yes, that is the one I am referring to.
7 341 Q. Yes?
9 342 Q. There would have been regular statements?
10 A. Regular statements.
11 343 Q. Yes?
12 A. And they went to either, I think, my -- you have
13 them all any way.
14 344 Q. Yes?
15 A. To my sister or my mother.
16 345 Q. Yes?
17 A. But they weren't sent out to me.
18 346 Q. Yes. I understand that?
19 A. Wherever I was.
20 347 Q. I see. If it is was going into your regular current
21 account, would it not have been normal that the
22 tenant would simply pay it into the Bank?
23 A. I presume so. I mean I can't remember why he,
24 Harry, just didn't write a cheque and send it in.
25 348 Q. Yes?
26 A. I know that when I went away first and I rented the
27 apartment then I didn't declare it and then I went
28 in under an amnesty and declared everything and the
29 apartment and after that point paid all the tax.
53
1 349 Q. Was that the 1993 amnesty?
2 A. Was there an amnesty before that? I think it was an
3 earlier one.
4 350 Q. 1988, yes?
5 A. 1988 because I was actually away in 1993.
6 351 Q. Yes?
7 A. And I had a lot of other difficulties at that time.
8 352 Q. Yes. I must just ask you is there any possibility
9 that this money was going into you off-shore
10 account?
11 A. I don't think it was but I would have to check.
12 353 Q. Yes?
13 A. Back through the accounts.
14 354 Q. Yes. Do you know what the amount of the rent was?
15 I mean would it -- presumably it would not appear in
16 your "Ansbacher" account as rent from Mr. Murray?
17 A. Merrick.
18 355 Q. Merrick?
19 A. I know that it would have been in the region of £300
20 a month, something like that.
21 356 Q. Yes. It appears that it appears in your current
22 account Mr. McCarroll?
23 A. Okay.
24 357 Q. Yes, thank you very much?
25 A. Okay.
26 358 Q. Merrick?
27 A. Merrick, yes.
28 359 Q. Yes, thank you. Another matter I wanted to ask you
29 about Mr. McCarroll is about one of the documents,
54
1 one of the statements, you sent into us. It is your
2 reference "OA/S-24" (Exhibit 4)?
3 A. Yes .
4 360 Q. This is this statement in which we see transactions,
5 both of you and of your wife, appearing and it was
6 the one in which the money was divided up between
7 you, the end balance. However, one of the
8 transactions there, it is the fourth and third last:

Q
10
"4th September 1989 - Gartmore proceeds
11 (M). Gartmore proceeds (Pat)"?
12 A. Right.
13 361 Q. What does that relate to?
14 A. I think that that was an investment, that money that
15 I put into an investment and I thought that I had a
16 statement. Did I give you a statement of that? At
17 the end of the documents I sent to you -- yes, my
18 reference "G/S-l" (eXHIBIT 19).
19 362 Q. G/S?
20 A. "G/S-l".
21 363 Q. Yes?
22 A. It is towards the very end of my set of documents.
23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Perhaps you could give us
24 this?
25 364 Q. MS. MACKEY: Perhaps you could. We do
26 not seem to have that with
27 us today.
28 A. Yes (same handed) (Exhibit 19).
29 365 Q. Thanks. This is an investment that Guinness & Mahon

1 was making for you, is that it?
2 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, yes, and I am not
3 sure if I set that up with Padraig or with Sean. I
4 can't remember. I think you should have a copy of
5 that.
6 366 Q. We would have a copy but we just have not got it
7 with us today. Is was an investment. Could you
8 tell me a little bit more about it?
9 A. Well, I, just from memory, had money. I had a
10 balance in the off-shore account.
11 367 Q. Yes?
12 A. And I probably, during discussions with Padraig at
13 some point, felt that I should may be invest it in
14 something that had a possibility of some capital
15 growth.
16 368 Q. Yes?
17 A. I know that at the time, about 1990, I was concerned
18 that -- Padraig's advice to me was always very
19 conservative in terms of finance and his advice was
20 always to keep quite a lot in cash.
21 369 Q. Yes?
22 A. And at about 1989/90 I felt that I should — with
23 the money I had saved, that some of it, should be in
24 something that offered potential.
25 370 Q. Yes?
26 A. To have some capital growth.
27 371 Q. Yes?
28 A. And it would have been in that context that I would
29 have -- I can't remember if I talked to Padraig or
56
1 to Sean. It tended to be Sean. Padraig didn't tend
2 to get involved in situations like that.
3 372 Q. Yes. You used a balance from your off-shore account
4 to...(INTERJECTION)?
6 373 Q. What was Gartmore?
7 A. I am not exactly sure. It was just some kind of a
8 fund that they explained...(INTERJECTION).
9 374 Q. An Irish fund, was it?
10 A. I don't think so because it is external capital.
11 375 Q. Yes?
12 A. The statement is external.
13 376 Q. Yes. However, it was on the advice of either
14 Mr. Collery or Sean...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Sean O'Dwyer.
16 377 Q. O'Dwyer?
17 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
18 378 Q. Would you have a look Mr. McCarroll at "OA/C-20"
19 (Exhibit 20)?
20 A. Yes.
21 379 Q. This is a letter from you in the US to:
22 "Dear Eilis".
23
24 Do you know who that is?
25 A. ©ilis, no. I assume it is somebody in
27 380 Q. Right?
28 A. But I can't remember it.
29 381 Q. In any event it says:
57
1 "I enclose a draft for $8,000. Please
put (approx) $5,000 in Gartmore as
2 discussed..."?
4 A. Yes.
5 382 Q.
6 "...and $3,000 in Swiss Francs"?
8 A. Yes.
9 383 Q. That is undated — well, it is dated 11th March but
10 there is no year on it?
11 A. We might be able to see if it is on one of the
12 statements. Yes, I gave you another document which
13 was another external capital statement, which
14 would be "$/S-l" and the date on that is the
15 21st March 1988 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 21).
16 384 Q. Right. Thank you. Yes?
17 A. And I think there is £8,000.
18 385 Q. There is, yes?
19 A. You will see a debit and a credit of $8,000 going
20 in.
21 386 Q. And that...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. Now, I am not sure -- I don't know where the
23 relation to Swiss Francs or what happened on that.
24 Does that tie in in terms of money?
25 387 Q. So this is a draft...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. Yes, "I enclose a draft"...(INTERJECTION).
27 388 Q. This draft which you sent to Eilis?
28 A. Yes, would have been I guess...(INTERJECTION).
29 389 Q. Appears in a dollar account here of Guinness &
58
1 Mahon, is that correct?
2 A. Right, yes.
3 390 Q. In your name?
4 A. And I don't know if it was transferred into Gartmore
5 then. No, there is no...(INTERJECTION).
6 391 Q. It is immediately withdrawn then again?
7 A. Withdrawn, yes.
8 392 Q. Transferred to new account, is it?
9 A. To new account.
10 393 Q. Yes?
11 A. Possibly to the Gartmore account. The only
12 statements I have for those accounts are the two I
13 have given you. I don't have...(INTERJECTION).
14 394 Q. You see the other one that you gave us -- it simply
15 says it is a sterling account. These are two
16 foreign currency accounts basically that you have
17 shown us?
18 A. Yes.
19 395 Q. In Guinness Mahon Bankers?
20 A. Right.
21 396 Q. And one is a sterling account and the other is a
22 dollar account. The sterling account refers to
23 transactions relating to Gartmore. There is a
24 credit of Gartmore proceeds?
25 A. Right.
26 397 Q. Then a second credit of Gartmore proceeds and then
27 the full amount is withdrawn, interest is added on?
28 A. Right.
29 398 Q. The other then -- so that seems to be the beginning
59
1 and the end of that particular sterling account
2 (Exhibit 19).
3 A. It starts... (INTERJECTION) .
4 399 Q. It starts with a nil balance?
5 A. Yes.
6 400 Q. And it ends with a nil balance after those two
7 transactions?
8 A. Although the statement number is four.
9 401 Q. It is strangely, yes.
10 A. So...(INTERJECTION).
11 402 Q. Have we three -- we do not have three or two?
12 A. No, I don't have. I mean I have given you
13 everything I have.
14 403 Q. Yes?
15 A. In my records.
16 404 Q. Yes. However, nevertheless it begins with a nil
17 balance?
18 A. Yes.
19 405 Q. Balance brought forward - nil?
20 A. Nil, yes.
21 406 Q. The sterling one, similarly, is statement number one
22 in that case (Exhibit 19)?
23 A. Yes.
24 407 Q. However, it begins at nil balance and then we have a
25 cheque lodged, which is a draft for $8,000 of which
26 according to your letter, $5,000 would relate to
27 Gartmore but $3,000 is some other transactions?
28 A. To Swiss Francs. To another, yes.
29 408 Q. Yes, which does not seem to have anything to do with
60
1 Gartmore?
2 A. No.
3 409 Q. These would not be strictly speaking be Gartmore
4 statements or accounts of Gartmore?
5 A. No.
6 410 Q. These are...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. I mean when I came across these in my records I
8 couldn't remember the detail of these and I just put
9 them in.
10 411 Q. Yes, yes?
11 A. The file.
12 412 Q. Yes. Did you have a number of foreign currency
13 accounts with Guinness & Mahon?
14 A. Well, these investments -- I regarded these not so
15 much as foreign currency accounts.
16 413 Q. Yes?
17 A. I regarded them as an investment.
18 414 Q. Yes?
19 A. And that is the way it was portrayed to me by
21 415 Q. Yes?
22 A. That I had some money -- I put some money in,
23 invested it.
24 416 Q. Yes?
25 A. Mainly for capital growth.
26 417 Q. Yes?
27 A. Now, my memory is that I didn't have -- I didn't
28 keep those accounts for a long time.
29 418 Q. Yes. This does not seem to
61
1 indicate...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Yes.
3 419 Q. That you keep them any longer than a month or
4 thereabouts?
5 A. Yes, but I wouldn't have -- I mean it would have
6 been very usual for me in the States at that time to
7 be in communication with Padraig on a monthly basis.
8 420 Q. Yes?
9 A. So, that is usual.
10 421 Q. Because this letter of yours to Eilis, while you are
11 asking to put $5,000 of the $8,000 into Gartmore,
12 that would be the investment. The $3,000, you simply
13 seem to want to exchange or put into Swiss Francs?
14 A. No, that was an investment account also.
15 Swiss Francs was actually...(INTERJECTION).
16 422 Q. The name of a...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. It -- well, I was advised by Guinness & Mahon that
18 Swiss Francs -- they thought currency -- the
19 Swiss Franc was going to increase in value.
20 423 Q. It is a foreign currency account basically?
21 A. Yes, it seems it was.
22 424 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 425 Q. Looking back again Mr. McCarroll at"OA/S-24"
25 (Exhibit 24?
26 A. "OA/S-24".
27 426 Q. The one we started with there?
28 A. Yes.
29 427 Q. Where there is the reference to the Gartmore
62
1 proceeds. Where you were closing, or as it appears
2 now closing that particular account, and dividing --
3 showing the division between your wife and yourself?
4 A. Yes.
5 428 Q. The two transactions in relation to Gartmore
6 proceeds seem to be relating both to you and to your
7 wife, is that right?
8
"Gartmore proceeds (M). Gartmore
9 proceeds (Pat)."
10
11 Do you see that there?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 429 Q. Had your wife also invested in Gartmore?
14 A. I didn't remember that she did.
15 430 Q. Yes?
16 A. But obviously this is in her name.
17 431 Q. Yes?
18 A. There is the one above that:
19 "Sale of..."
20
21 something,
22 "...BFA bonds (Mary)".
23
24 432 Q. I see that. Mary, yes. Then we see Swiss Francs
25 just underneath that; do you see that?
26 A. Yes. Swiss Francs 3,9...(INTERJECTION).
27 433 Q. 3,962?
28 A. ...62, yes. It looks like those...(INTERJECTION).
29 434 Q. Which is a credit?
30 A.
63
1 A. They were credited so these were closed and credited
2 into my off-shore account then.
3 435 Q. You would consider that this was the closing of your
4 Swiss Franc account and the transferring of it into
5 sterling or whatever this was?
6 A. Yes, because my recollection of the Swiss Franc
7 account and of the Gartmore is very -- I mean I have
8 very little documentation and my memory of it is
9 very scanty.
10 436 Q. Right?
11 A. So, I think it was something that just was for a
12 short period.
13 437 Q. Alright. You do not know whether Gartmore was in
14 sterling or...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Unless I can tell it from the statement.
16 438 Q. The statement is in sterling?
17 A. Sterling.
18 439 Q. That talks about the proceeds of Gartmore?
19 A. As to which one? Which one are we on? Sterling.
20 440 Q. That is the "GS/-1" (Exhibit 17)?
21 A. Yes, its sterling, yes.
22 441 Q. You were saying to us earlier, when we were looking
23 at the statement that appeared to have their tops
24 cut off, that, you know, you were a bit bemused and
25 amused by this when they began to arrive but that
26 you -- if you talked to Mr. Collery about them at
27 all he was rather vague in his explanations as to
28 why this might be done but you believed he had his
29 reasons and so on. However, there is a reference in

1 one of your letters to him to these statements and
2 it is a letter that we find at "OA/C -7" (Exhibit
3 13) .
4 A. Yes, I think I called them "headless", did I?
5 442 Q. You did, yes?
6 A. Yes .
7 443 Q. You called them headless statements?
8 A. Yes .
9 444 Q. This is the letter, in fact, referring to that final
10 statement we were just looking at (Exhibit 19)?
11 A. Right.
12 445 Q. Where you are correcting the balances attributable
13 to you and to your wife?
14 A. Right.
15 446 Q. You go on to say:
16 "Mary has deposited $6,000 since then

and has not made any withdrawals. So,
17 her balance should be in the region
of..."
18
19 and you give a figure,"
20 "...including interest. To check my

own balance I would need one of your
21 headless statements for the period Sept
89 to date"?
22
23 A. Right.
24 447 Q. I just, you know -- I wonder why you specifically
25 asked there for a headless statement. I mean I
26 appreciate the slight may be amusement there in the
27 tone. However, you seem to accept that the
28 statements would be coming, you know, headless and I
29 just wonder was this something that at this stage
65
1 was totally accepted between you and Mr. Collery?
2 A. Well, I mean as you can see that 80 % or 90% of the
3 statements that I got from him had the tops cut off.
4 448 Q. Yes?
5 A. And my -- I suppose my analysis or my -- when I
6 speculated that about that, and again some of this
7 is kind of retroactive.
8 449 Q. Yes?
9 A. So, I am not sure.
10 450 Q. Yes?
11 A. But as I -- I have said it already that part of it,
12 certainly initially, was that I felt just for
13 administrative purposes Padraig was printing
14 statements in Dublin that in theory should have come
15 from, as I thought at the time, Guinness Mahon
16 Guernsey.
17 451 Q. Yes, yes?
18 A. And that it would have wrong for him to do that.
19 452 Q. Yes. You thought it would be wrong for him to do
20 that?
21 A. I thought that it would be wrong for
22 Guinness & Mahon in Ireland -- I didn't know
23 anything about banking quite frankly.
24 453 Q. Right?
25 A. But that one bank in Dublin should not be printing
26 out accounts.
27 454 Q. Right?
28 A. From another bank in Guernsey.
29 455 Q. Yes?
1 A. And that this was a way where he could tell me just
2 what I had in the bank and chop the top off it.
3 456 Q. I see, yes?
4 A. But also there was this, or it did create this, kind
5 of aura and it was that, you know, somehow this, you
6 know -- that there was something special about this
7 account and that, you know.
8 457 Q. Yes. You said there earlier that initially when you
9 went away after you had opened the Guernsey account
10 you dealt directly with Guernsey?
11 A. I think that there is one -- my first one or two
12 letters may have been with Guernsey.
13 458 Q. Yes?
14 A. I am not sure now.
15 459 Q. I just wonder why you changed and began to deal with
16 Guinness & Mahon Dublin or how that came about?
17 A. From memory I think Padraig just said, "Look, its
18 easier. Just deal with me directly".
19 460 Q. We are going back now to the early 1980's, would
20 that be right?
22 461 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 462 Q. Had you been dealing with Mr. Collery prior to that
25 or was it Mr. Keane?
26 A. Initially I was dealing with Martin Keane.
27 463 Q. Yes?
28 A. And then about 1980 I think.
29 464 Q. Yes?
67
1 A. 1980/81 I started to have contact with Padraig. I
2 met Padraig, you know. If I was in Dublin I went
3 into the Bank to see Martin and he introduced me to
4 Padraig, and I met him at that point, and then it
5 seemed that he was taking other my affairs.
6 465 Q. Right?
7 A. And then I just dealt with him and I got on very
8 well with him.
9 466 Q. Yes. In relation both to you resident account?
10 A. Resident and...(INTERJECTION).
11 467 Q. And to the other one?
12 A. Yes.
13 468 Q. He dealt at all times with both?
14 A. Yes, because again I think -- again I can't remember
15 for sure but I think I had an agreement with him
16 that I could run an overdraft in my Dublin account.
17 469 Q. Yes?
18 A. And if my overdraft went above a certain amount.
19 470 Q. Yes?
20 A. He could -- he would then transfer. So, when I was
21 away I didn't have to worry about it.
22 471 Q. He managed it?
23 A. He managed it for me.
24 472 Q. What happened to the management of your resident
25 account when Mr. Collery left the Bank? I mean you
26 have told us about going to meet him, you know, in
27 Fitzwilliam Square and so on?
28 A. But I ... (INTERJECTION) .
29 473 Q. However, who was dealing then with your resident
68
1 account?
2 A. But I closed my resident account in 1991 I think.
3 474 Q. You closed it before Mr. Collery left the Bank?
4 A. I am not sure when he actually left the bank but I
5 closed it in 1991.
6 475 Q. Right. Would that have been one of the reasons why
7 you closed it?
8 A. No. In fact with regard to my resident account I
9 got the distinct impression that they really didn't
10 want me. I dealt with Chris Waite and
11 I...(INTERJECTION).
12 476 Q. You did not deal with Mr. Collery then?
13 A. No, I got a letter. I think I was in Portugal. I
14 got a letter from Chris to say that they had
15 reviewed my situation and that they were, you know,
16 wondering would it be better if I didn't have an
17 account there. That was the way it was put to me.
18 477 Q. Right?
19 A. Because...(INTERJECTION).
20 478 Q. Do we have that letter here?
21 A. I don't think -- wait until I see now. It was about
22 19...(INTERJECTION).
23 479 Q. It is just that I do not recollect seeing it?
24 A. On"CA/C-l" (Exhibit 22) .
25 480 Q. CA/C-1?
26 A. Yes. CA/C -1 current account.
27 481 Q. We do not seem to?
28 A. Yes, and "CA/C-5" is the letter from Chris Waite to
29 me.(Exhibit 23) .
1 482 Q. Right?
2 A. Wait until I just have a look now.
3 483 Q. May be you could pass us just that to have a look at
4 because we do not seem to have it in our copies, if
5 you do not mind?
6 A. (Same handed) (Exhibit 23).
7 484 Q. Thank you?
8 A. Now, I remember when I got that letter I was again a
9 bit bemused because he wrote the letter as if I had
10 sort of pushed the whole thing
11 about...(INTERJECTION).
12 485 Q. I was just going to say:
13 "You have decided to close your current

account"?
14
15 A. Yes, but the feeling was very much that they -- I
16 got the feeling that they wanted me to close the
17 account at that time.
18 486 Q. Have you the letter of the 31st May, your own
19 letter, there (Exhibit 24)?
20 A. Yes.
21 487 Q. That is referred to?
22 A. I have, yes.
23 488 Q. Could we may be just look at that?
24 A. Yes (Same Handed) (Exhibit 24).
25 489 Q. Thank you?
26 A. I know is sounds -- it seems to contradict a little
27 bit what I say but I know that was the feeling I had
28 at the time.
29 490 Q. That certainly seems to say that you have decided to
70
1 close it?
2 A. I. . . (INTERJECTION) .
3 491 Q. And he replies and says:
4 "I note that you have decided to close

it"?
5
6 A. But I think there was either communication or may be
7 a telephone call before that. I have nothing to
8 base it on but I remember having the distinct
9 impression at that time that they wanted me to close
10 the account. Again, I don't know why. I mean I
11 just -- it was a memory that has hung with me all
12 that time.
13 492 Q. Yes. Because if you were dealing with
14 Padraig Collery at all times in relation to your
15 resident account then presumably any feeling that
16 you would have got would have been from him?
17 A. Normally, yes, but the...(INTERJECTION).
18 493 Q. Would you mind if we took copies of these?
19 A. You should have them.
20 494 Q. We have them?
21 A. Yes .
22 495 Q. Grand. Thank you. The feeling you would have got
23 would have been from him and then you wrote directly
24 to the Bank:
25 "Dear Sirs."
26
27 I mean it is not directed to him and Mr. Waite
28 writes back to you?
29 A. I . . . (INTERJECTION) .
1 496 Q. Can you...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Now, again it is from memory but my feeling was that
3 anything I dealt with Padraig was in a much more
4 informal way and that. I had -- I don't know if I
5 had a telephone chat with Chris Waite or whatever
6 but I remember my feeling at the time being that I
7 was being encouraged to close the account.
8 497 Q. Yes?
9 A. Now, I don't know why I still have that with me.
10 498 Q. Yes?
11 A. It irked me at the time I remember.
12 499 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I remember thinking that one of the reasons was
14 that I was running my resident account really with
15 an overdraft just ticking over. So, I wasn't really
16 doing anything with the account.
17 500 Q. Yes?
18 A. And that Padraig was topping it up from time to
19 time.
20 501 Q. Yes?
21 A. So, really I was using it for domestic spending when
22 I was at home in Ireland.
23 502 Q. Yes?
24 A. From time to time.
25 503 Q. Yes?
26 A. Now, again I can't -- I know the correspondence
27 seems to give a totally different picture.
28 504 Q. Yes. One of the things that we are required to look
29 into is, as you know we are investigating
72
1 "Ansbacher" the company and not individual persons
2 who might have been clients or otherwise of it?
3 A. Yes .
4 505 Q. However, one of the things we are required to look
5 into is whether "Ansbacher" conducted its business
6 with intent to -- in such a manner as to enable
7 creditors of third parties to be defrauded in some
8 way or another and in many cases that relates to the
9 Irish Revenue as being a creditor of a third party.
10 You have explained to us that you were non-resident
11 during all this time so that this would not apply to
12 you. You would however during the times you were
13 away in different countries have been liable to pay
14 tax to those countries. I must just ask you: Did
15 you declare the taxes that you were obliged to
16 declare to the Revenue authorities of those
17 countries or did you use your off-shore account to
18 enable you not to do so?
19 A. Well, it varied a lot depending on which country you
20 were in. In the middle East, in for example
21 countries like Oman, there is no income tax.
22 506 Q. Right?
23 A. In Kenya there was income tax.
24 507 Q. Yes?
25 A. And the arrangement that I had with my partners in
26 Kenya was that I received a local salary on which I
27 paid tax.
28 508 Q. Yes?
29 A. But I also received a certain amount of money that I
73
1 put outside that was not.
2 509 Q. Yes?
3 A. So, I did not pay, if you like, the full amount of
4 tax. Now...(INTERJECTION).
5 510 Q. When you say you received, this was your salary you
6 are talking about?
7 A. This was my salary, yes.
8 511 Q. You declared part of your salary?
9 A. In Kenya, yes, yes.
10 512 Q. Yes?
11 A. And that would have been a standard. Even companies
12 that were hiring people and setting up businesses in
13 Kenya that was...(INTERJECTION).
14 513 Q. So part... (INTERJECTION)?
15 A. That was kind of accepted.
16 514 Q. Right?
17 A. Most expats in Kenya would have done it.
18 515 Q. What would happen was they would pay you part of
19 your salary on the books as it were?
20 A. Yes. I mean I was paying myself.
21 516 Q. And that would be declared?
22 A. Because I was running the company.
23 517 Q. You were paying yourself?
24 A. Yes.
25 518 Q. The other part of your salary, what happened to it?
26 A. Well, initially when we bought the company in Kenya
27 I had no -- I didn't have access to a large amount
28 of funds and I was setting it up with two partners
29 and they agreed that they would pay some of my --
74
1 just top up my salary because my local salary would
2 have been very small.
3 519 Q. Yes?
4 A. And from memory that salary was something like
5 £15,000 a year.
6 520 Q. Yes?
7 A. While I was in Kenya.
8 521 Q. Yes. What they were paying?
9 A. Yes.
10 522 Q. This was the bit that was not being declared?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 523 Q. Where did that go and what happened to it?
13 A. That went into Guinness & Mahon.
14 524 Q. It went into "Ansbacher"?
15 A. "Ansbacher" here.
16 525 Q. In relation to -- you were working in -- where else
17 did you say you worked? You worked in lots of
18 places. You were in Portugal, is that right?
19 A. Portugal: The company Euroactivade, who I worked
20 for, they had a similar arrangement and
21 we...(INTERJECTION).
22 526 Q. Similar to Kenya?
23 A. Similar to Kenya.
24 527 Q. Yes?
25 A. Now, I was an employee in the company. I had no
26 interest in the company there.
27 528 Q. Yes?
28 A. And there we received an official salary. We paid
29 tax on that salary and in addition they paid us a
75
1 certain amount off-shore again.
2 529 Q. Did that go into your "Ansbacher" account as well?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 530 Q. In Kenya you were not an employee. You were a
5 Director basically?
7 531 Q. Yes. That company was called Euroactivade?
8 A. No, that was called Vamos International.
9 532 Q. Vamos. How do you spell that?
10 A. V-a-m-o-s.
11 533 Q. Vamos International. Right. That was Portugal.
12 The States?
13 A. The States: We were hired -- it was a very
14 complicated situation. We were hired by a
15 Saudi Arabian company and sub-contracted to work
16 with a large American company and we didn't pay any
17 tax at all.
18 534 Q. You were not obliged to pay tax, was it?
19 A. Well, as far as I know that was the situation. We
20 went -- we got a special type of Visa. We were
21 working on military work for the US Government.
22 535 Q. Right?
23 A. And we got a special Visa to allow us to go in to
24 work.
25 536 Q. Right?
26 A. And we got paid our money through the Saudi Arabian
27 company.
28 537 Q. Right. That salary; would that have been lodged to
29 your...(INTERJECTION)?
76
1 A. A lot of that salary would have. Part of it would
2 have been held in a dollar account that we had in
3 St Louis.
4 538 Q. That the company had?
5 A. No, that I had.
6 539 Q. That you had?
7 A. That we had. When we were living in the States we
8 had a dollar account there.
9 540 Q. Right, yes. And the rest?
10 A. And occasionally, and I am doing this from memory
11 again.
12 541 Q. Yes?
13 A. Occasionally I might have sent cheques to Padraig to
14 lodge to the Guinness & Mahon account.
15 542 Q. Yes. So we have Nairobi. Sudan?
16 A. Sudan: I didn't pay any tax at all. When I went
17 there I -- one of our local advisors was an
18 accountant.
19 543 Q. Yes?
20 A. And when I discussed the tax situation with him he
21 said that at that point Sudan -- the taxation system
22 was not really well developed at all and that there
23 wasn't a facility there apparently to tax
24 non-residents.
25 544 Q. Right?
26 A. To tax expatriates there in Sudan.
27 545 Q. Yes?
28 A. And his advice was, "Don't do anything. They will
29 find you when—"...(INTERJECTION).

1 546 Q. So you did not declare?
2 A. So, I didn't. Well, it is not even that I didn't
3 declare. I mean I was just advised not to do
4 anything.
5 547 Q. You did nothing?
6 A. Yes.
7 548 Q. However, you did not pay tax?
8 A. No.
9 549 Q. Your salaries from there then, would they have gone
10 to Padraig?
11 A. They would have gone -- again, some of them would
12 have gone to Padraig but while I was in Sudan I had
13 a dollar account and a local account, from memory,
14 in the local City Bank.
15 550 Q. Yes?
16 A. In Khartoum.
17 551 Q. Right. However, some would have gone to Padraig?
18 A. Some would have gone to Padraig, yes.
19 552 Q. Okay. Has that covered everywhere you were?
20 A. I am lost now.
21 553 Q. We have Oman, we have Sudan?
22 A. Yes.
23 554 Q. We have Portugal, we have the States?
24 A. Yes.
25 555 Q. We have...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. If I go...(INTERJECTION).
27 556 Q. Saudi Arabia -- wait now?
28 A. No, it was a Saudi Arabian company.
29 557 Q. That is right, yes?
78
1 A. When we were in the States.
2 558 Q. Yes?
3 A. Yes .
4 559 Q. I think that seems to be everywhere except Ireland?
5 A. That seems to be everywhere.
6 560 Q. During the time that you were resident in Ireland
7 did you use your "Ansbacher" account in any way
9 A. The only -- again, I would have to check it but the
10 only thing I did would have been to top up while I
11 had my...(INTERJECTION).
12 561 Q. Resident?
13 A. Resident account but I closed the resident account
14 in 1991.
15 562 Q. Yes?
16 A. So, all the dealings in that would have stopped at
17 that point.
18 563 Q. Right. Mr. McCarroll, during the times that you
19 were resident in Ireland, when you would be making
20 tax returns, did you include in those tax returns
21 the interest that would have accrued on your
22 off-shore account?
23 A. The particular period that I think that that refers
24 to would be 1991/92, that tax year, and I didn't
25 declare that.
26 564 Q. You did not?
27 A. Yes. I checked my records a few nights ago.
28 565 Q. I do not think I have any further questions. Can I
29 just ask you to look at one more document
79
1 Mr. McCarroll? It is DEP/A6?
2 A. Which one.
3 566 Q. "Dep/4-6" I think it is (Exhibit 25).
4 A. OA, is it.
5 567 Q. No. It is DEP/A?
6 A. DEP, it is a deposit account.
7 568 Q. And then a 6. It is a letter of the
8 12th January 1977 (Exhibit 25)?
9 A. Is that my reference or your reference?
10 569 Q. It is yours?
11 A. Is it in mine, sorry.
12 570 Q. It is yours, DEP. I think it refers
14 A. IEP, yes, is it?
15 571 Q. Is it IEP?
16 A. Is it? Deposit account, sorry, yes, DEP.
17 572 Q. Deposit account?
18 A. Where abouts? That is at the back, Okay.
19 573 Q. Yes, it is near the end of your file?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 574 Q. Right. I see you have it now, have you?
22 A. Yes.
23 575 Q. It is a letter of the 12th January 1977 (Exhibit
24 25)?
25 A. Yes.
26 576 Q. From Mr. Keane to you?
27 MR. 0'MALLEY: DEP and what number?
28 577 Q. MS. MACKEY: Number 6.
29 A. 6, Okay, yes.
80
1 578 Q. He refers to your recent letter in connection with
2 the Revenue query as to where you obtained the
3 £10,000:
4 "I would suggest that you reply to them

in due course and "state that it was a
5 gift from your father."
7 Can you tell us what that is about?
8 A. Well, I have already told you that.
9 579 Q. Right?
10 A. I.e. when my father sold the company.
11 580 Q. Yes?
12 A. He made a gift to my sister and myself of £10,000
13 each.
14 581 Q. Yes?
15 A. And in my case he deposited that. He opened a
16 deposit account for me.
17 582 Q. Yes?
18 A. In Guinness & Mahon.
19 583 Q. Yes. It seems from this that you had written to
20 Mr. Keane asking what you should tell the Revenue
21 about it, is that it?
22 A. Well, I got a query from the Revenue.
23 584 Q. Yes?
24 A. Before I was going way. Wait until I see. That is
25 1977. I think I got a query from the Revenue asking
26 me how come I had an income.
27 585 Q. Yes?
28 A. Because in 1977, January 1977, I would have just
29 started working. I got my degree in 1976.
81
1 586 Q. Yes?
2 A. So, in late 1976 I started working in Dublin.
3 587 Q. Yes?
4 A. And I got, again from memory, a query from the
5 Revenue about my tax affairs and then I said I had
6 an income from some money I had on deposit.
7 588 Q. Yes?
8 A. And they said, "Where did you get this money?"
9 589 Q. Yes?
10 A. And then I told them. I wrote to them and said that
11 I got it as a present from my father.
12 590 Q. However, before you wrote to them you wrote to
13 Mr. Keane to ask him about it. I just wonder why
14 you should ask Mr. Keane what you should say it was?
15 A. I suppose I didn't have an accountant looking after
16 my tax affairs at the time.
17 591 Q. Yes?
18 A. And I just -- I was only out of college and I just
19 wanted advice from somebody.
20 592 Q. I see?
21 A. On what to do.
22 593 Q. I see. Thank you very much. I have no further
23 questions?
24 A. Yes.
25
26 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. PATRICK McCARROLL BY
27 MS. MACKEY
28
29
82
1 594 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you Mr. McCarroll.
2 That is all we have to ask
3 you about. We will have to take up the matter of
4 your wife's account, separate account. We will
5 write to her in due course. I am sure you can
6 explain to her that we need all the documents that
7 she may have?
8 A. Yes.
9 595 Q. Very good. Thank you.
10 MS. MACKEY: Your wife, her address is
11 here in Dublin, is it?
12 A. Yes, it is the same.
13 596 Q. MS. MACKEY: It is the same address as
14 here?
15 A. Yes.
16 5 97 Q. MS. MACKEY: I suppose you would not
17 be able to give us an
18 address for Ms. Lynch, would you?
19 A. I don't know. She married somebody who works for
20 the -- she married an American guy who works for the
21 American Embassy and they have been posted all over
22 the world.
23 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
24 A. So, I don't know where she is at the moment.
25 MS. MACKEY: I see. I see.
26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McCarroll, we would
27 ask you to come in when
28 this has been typed up to sign the transcript.
29 Ms. Cummins will be in touch with you.
83
1 A. Okay. Thank you.
3 THE INTERVIEW WAS THEN CONCLUDED
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
84
Appendix XV (75) (1) (b)
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CURRENCY . ACCOUNT NUMBER
HON R E S I D E N T CALL
LEDGER
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DEPOSIT s10fcC7v
DESCRIPTION STATEMENT DATE
1 DATE PARTICULARS VALUE DATE DEBIT CREDIT BALANCE
430N0V79 BALANCE BROUGHT FORWARD

11D6C79 TSF TO 6EN€RAL 26N0V79 500.00 1 .
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Appendix XV (75) (1) (d)
STATCMBNT Of ACCOUNT
GUINNESS MAtfON CAYMAN TRUST LIMI1

ACCOUNT C / F COLLEGE T R U S T E E S LTD rJO. BOX BB7 GRAND CAYMAN BRILWI WATT IMFIM TTHPHOM NO 9-46S3/4
NAME IWM CP 309 CM* ADDRAN GUFIMN
a
cumifNev STERLING ACCOUNT NUMBER 98270/02/65
LEDGER
ACCOUNT HON R E S I D E N T CALL -
DESCRIPTION
DEPOSIT OTATBMKNT DATE
H DATE PARTICULARS VALUE DATE ' , DEBIT CREDIT

31MARB?
BALANCE
|
j-Vbrtaf BALANCE BROUGHt FORWARD 17.37
k
..." "V*
RE U S * 3 0 5 2 0 - 4 09<F EB82 16/400.00 • znz.ti
PUT BY C O L L E G E T O AMEX' 12FEB82. ; • 1*227.57
3 9 V E B 8 2 LODGED 12FEB82 14.00
R A T E CHANGE ' ' - 0.00
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3/10/90 3/10/90 S4873
Jl/10/90
V CARRIED FORWARD
A/A43P
ACCOUNT mJMBER 80001632 PAGE 14
BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: Sterling
33418.02
530.00
1000.00 31868.02
2613.94
29254.08
C
Appendix XV (75) (l)(f)
Ansbacher Limited
A Member of the Henry Ansbacher Holdings PLC Merchant Banking Group
Please reply to: . P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, British West Indies
Phone: (809)949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. " Far (809) 949-7946
(809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
26th September, 1990.

M. David Humphries, Esq./
Senior Manager - Operations,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to wire transfer US$4,875.00 to
Morgan Guaranty Trust Co.,
23 Wall Street,
New York,
N.Y. 10005;
U.S.A.
A.B.A. 021 000 238
for credit to
.Prudential Bache Account. 72200011
for further credit to
A/C Patrick McCarroll ESY-420586-8R
Please debit the post to Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602
advising
" Sterling figure in due course'.
*
Yours sincerely, _
• /
(
s (o
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (75) (l)(g)
r*. A/A'i3P
u A C C O U N T NUK J t PAGE
BALANCES S H O W N ARl
IS
stftrlini
rwinv
DATE.
i- VALUE
I DATF.
DEhCHIPTI <
>1 /10/v0 BROUGHT FORWARD
29254.08 i)\\
5/11/90 15/11/90 IP A000 3720.(50 f
JO/11 /90 BROUGHT FORWARD 25534.08

3/12/90
51/12/90
3/12/90
31/12/90 Interest to 31/12/90
350.00
955.84
24984.08
\
Uii
Jl/12/90 25939.92
CARRIED FORWARD I!) J 1
\\
u
Oftb y
Ansbacher Limited
^ u.mhtr ofthM Henry Ansbacherffofdlngs PLC Merchant Banking Groupj
P.O. Box 887, Ocind Cayman, Bnîh Wat W i a

Pleaae reply to: Phone (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwffliam Square, Telex: CP 4305
V ' '
Fax: (809) 949-7946
•-•
• -. -
Dublin 2. (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
19th February, 1991
C. Waite, Esq.,
17 College Green,
DDBLIN 2.
Deaf Chris,
could-VSu^sIease arrange to credit the Account of
IR£4,000.00 and debit the Sterling
e<mivalttatôZ^bachsgîmlted Account No. 13154602.
J.P.. Travnor.
° o 5 .
JDT/A'JW
&
Hamilton Ross Co. Limited
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman. Cayman Island*. British West Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telephone: (809) 949-8653 Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 1 Facsimile (809) 949-7946. (809) 949-3267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
25th November, 1992
Ronan Redmond, Esq.,

Corporate services,
Irish intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection a
Sterling cheque for Stg.£20,000.00.payable to Mr. Patrick McCarroll
and debit the coat to Hamilton Rosa Account No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED
DPC/AJW
4103 Z
Appendix XV (75) (1) (j)
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Joint Inspectors I" ! r o r
3 rd Floor
Trident House Tciiiple C h a m b e r s
Blackrock 3 Burlingron Road

Dublin 4
Co. Dublin
Tel: +353 1 202 6400
Fax: +353 1 667 5200
By post & by fax: 2833929
DX 25
Email: lawyer@efcie
W e b s i t e : www.efc.ie
ourref TL/PH/M23660.001 your ref 28 th September 2001
Re: Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited

Our client: Mrs. Mary Meagher - McCarroll
Patrick McCarroll (deceased)
•J "J vj<(,;
Dear Sirs,
We refer to your letters of 18th September 2001 addressed, in the first instance, to our client personally
but also as the legal personal representative of Patrick McCarroll deceased. We represent Mrs. Meagher
- McCarroll both in her own right and as executrix of her late husband's estate and are corresponding
with you therefore in respect of both letters. We appreciate that the late Mr. McCarroll was formerly
represented by John P. O'Malley & Company but they are aware of our present involvement.
We mention, as an aside, that your correspondence to our client arrived on the anniversary of her
husband's death.
We refer to the statements attached to your two letters and to the preliminary conclusion in each
instance that both the late Mr. McCarroll and his widow Mrs Mary Meagher - McCarroll were clients of
Ansbacher. We find such a conclusion, and particularly its non qualification, perverse in all the
circumstances that exist and the evidence that is available. We propose to deal with the findings in each
case separately:
1. Mr. Patrick McCarroll (deceased)
In a statement preceding your preliminary conclusions at paragraph 3, you accurately detailed

Mr. McCarroll's background. The contents of paragraph 2 are of particular relevance and
includes the sentence "it would appear that his funds, in common with those of many persons
whose funds were managed by College Trustees, were deposited subsequently in Ansbacher
Partners •. ', > • . ...imi/iv Ui,:n.V! vV U.ir>q.iri !><••.•{! Eiwor Ferry Lengott Gerard Coll B.irr, 0 ? W i Leonora Malone David CaSJreli
c
!• .'.! M.»p.»; •:.;! Associates .,uion r-AComvck Mary £ Barrett Ichn Costello Hilary 0'S.ilhv>w L-li.in Halpm Ronan O'Ncili/
'.- •:] , ":••' ".|i'-• > K . n - ' , Poix] 51:;h Pcboiali Kelly VVilluia .Yyimer Nicop, r.:rV'a*,n David 1 i.icL^tt
Consultants Margaioi Buike-Staunton Ruth Finlay
without his knowledge." (emphasis added). Despite this apparent acceptance of fact, you
conclude that the late Mr. McCarroll was a "client" of Ansbacher. We attach an extract from the
Oxford dictionary which defines the word client as follows "a person using the services of any
professional; a customer". In our view such a relationship is based on contract, one of the
essential criteria of which is to form an intention to create legal relations. We ask rhetorically
how one can form legal relations with an entity of whose existence you are blissfully unaware?
In the exhibits attached to your statement there are included statements from G + M Bankers. It
was to this institution that Mr. McCarroll lodged his money in the belief that an offshore account
had been set up for him in Guernsey. Some of the statements originate from the bank in that
jurisdiction and only one of those we have seen makes reference "Guinness & Mahon Cayman
Trust Limited". We would also refer you to the evidence given by the late Mr. McCarroll in his
interview with you on 19th June 2000 when he was very clear in his testimony about the nature
of his relationship with Guinness & Mahon and his instructions to Padraig Collery with regard to
his funds.
Although the narrative contained in your statement reflects the late Mr. McCarroll's status as a
non-resident, no-where is this referred to in your preliminary conclusions. You will doubtless
be aware of the stigma attaching to anyone found to be the holder of an Ansbacher account. If
Mr. McCarroll had been knowingly such an account holder (which is patently not the case) there
would have been nothing untoward about that situation because throughout the years in question
Mr. McCarroll was resident and working outside the jurisdiction and was not therefore subject to
Irish Income Tax. You will be aware from his evidence to you that he took professional advice
on his position and was careful not to contravene Irish tax laws.
If it is still your intention, despite everything we have said, to persist with your preliminary
conclusions, it is absolutely essential that you qualify that finding by inclusion of the additional
facts :-
(a) Mr. McCarroll's alleged status as a client of Ansbacher was without his knowledge; and
(b) Mr. McCarroll was non resident for tax purposes throughout the period in question and
was therefore fully entitled to maintain an offshore account.
2. Mrs. Mary Meagher McCarroll
Everything we have outlined in respect of the late Patrick McCarroll applies equally in relation
to his wife. All the more so in her case because she appears not to have instructed Guinness &
Mahon directly but relied on her husband to do so. No attempt was made by the late Mr.
McCarroll to hide the fact that his wife also had an account with Guinness & Mahon and that
these funds were held offshore because there was nothing unusual or unlawful in that situation.
Again we would contend that is all the circumstances of the case and in the light of the evidence
made available to you, it is perverse to conclude that Mrs. Meagher McCarroll was a "client" of
Ansbacher. If you nonetheless persist in this finding it would be contrary to the principles of
fairness and natural justice if you did not qualify your findings in the same way as we have
outlined above in Mr. McCarroll's case.
We look forward to hearingfrom you and would emphasise that all communications should be directed
to this office.
Yours faithfullv.
Eugene F. Collins
\Nefc\sys\users\pliackett\sept01\ineag25insp.doc
Appendix XV (76) Mr Liam McGonagle, deceased
Liam McGonagle.
a) Letter of 30 March 1988 - Liam McGonagle to Guinness and Mahon.
b) Guinness and Mahon internal memo of 16 August 1978 - TRL to JD

Traynor.
c) Letter of 11 May 1990 - Martin Lanigan-O'Keeffe to JD Traynor.
d) Transcript of evidence of Mr Desmond Turvey dated 16 July 2001.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Liam McGonagle.
a) Letter of 15 November 2001 from Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh to

Inspectors.
ri ...
KENNEDY & McGONAGLE

solicitors
UAM AIMMHAOU
1WJC4U L H. MATTKrM ^ KQgjgmggg^jufl, RQAD
DUBLIN 4
otm MP
ATTENTION MR. PAT O'DWYER manr L/D
30th March 1988
Messrs Guinness & Mahon Ltd.,
17 Collage Green,
Dublin 2.
CAMILLE INVESTMENTS LIMITED (LIAM D. McGONAGLE)

Dear Sira,
I wish to inform you that I propose to put the above-nened Company,
Camilla Investaents Limited, into voluntary liquidation next month. The
Company ia wholly owned by me, and all ita liabilitiea will be discharged.
In the circumstances Cemille will not now need to avail of the loon
facility aet out in your letter dated 3rd February 1984. Accordingly, I
should be greteful if you would cancel the recility and also the guarantee
given for Cemille by Liele Investment Company Limited.
Yours faithfully, ^ _
LIAM D. McGONAGLE
TO: .1.1). T. c.c. I'.uyj.
i
FROM: .J-iî-.-F:^
RE: ^/CAMILLE iNVESTjMENJ^Jîwrreo.
Deo Turvey raquosted a short term facility of £120,000.00

for the above Company, to be repaid in sarly September.
This iE a suitably secured situation, but ae it is against
dollara, the rate to be charged on the facility is 3%
over our Base Lending Rats.
If' a formal facility letter requires to be done perhaps Pat

could see to this on his return from holidays. In the
meantime I have asked E.McL. to hold dollars in excess of
300,000.00 held on deposit from G.P1.C.T. to our order.
TRLsAB
16th. Aucust, 1975
MLOK/CC 11th May 1990
Mr. j.d. Traynor,

Ansbacher Limited,
c/o 42, Fitzwilliam Square,
Dublin 2.
iar Des,
a. refer to your letter of 17th April. The attached schedule
sets out the account details requested as at 3lst March 1990.
X have discussed this list briefly with Padraig, but if there
are any queries perhaps you would let me know.
Yours sincerely,
S"
T7
MARTIN U & I G A N - O ' KBB77B.
\
Latter of Credit Facility
£100,000
£ 20,692
atg.e 70,000
£ 308,343
8tg.£1,250,576
£ 130,000 (GBW)
£ 55,324
£ 10,357
£ 156,576
£ 4,410
£ 200,196
Stg.£ 35,000
Stg.£ 35,000
Liam McGonagle Stg.fi 140,000
£ 50,000 (As Guarantor
for various
faculties)
£ 25,496
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. DES TURVEY
UNDER OATH
ON MONDAY, 16TH JULY 2001
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: HIS HONOUR JUDGE O'LEARY
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors : MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. DES TURVEY
Represented by: MR. JAMES DALY
CROSSKERRYS
35 MERRION SQUARE
DUBLIN 2
I N D E X
MR. D. TURVEY JUDGE 0'LEARY 7 - 88
MS. MACKEY 89 - 98
2 16TH JULY 2001:
5 JUDGE O'LEARY: Mr. Turvey, we have
6 received your letter
7 of the 16th July and note it's contents.
8 MR. TURVEY: Thank you.
9 JUDGE O'LEARY: My name is Sean O'Leary.
10 I am one of the Inspectors
11 appointed by the High Court to consider the question
12 of reporting on the Company. We are not really
13 reporting on individuals. It is the Company.
14 There are certain aspects of our work which means
15 that we have to investigate to a certain and to
16 a limited extent the affairs of the individuals.
17 However, that is secondary to our overall task
18 which is to investigate the Company and we have
19 a responsibility and a duty to do that.
20
21 In order to do so we can ask people who might have
22 information, or may have information, to assist us
23 to come and help us in that regard.
24
25 From information which we have available, none of
26 which is particularly secret and all of which you
27 will see in a short while, we have reason to believe
28 that you might be a person who could assist us with
29 regard to information which you might have. A lot
4
1 of this information deals with people other than
2 yourself.
3 MR. TURVEY: Right.
4 JUDGE 0'LEARY: However, it is of the
5 nature of things that
6 we have to ask people these kinds of questions.
8 The system which we are using is a most informal
9 system. We, myself and my fellow Inspector
10 Ms. Noreen Mackey, who is on my right-hand side,
11 will ask you a number of questions which you can
12 answer taking whatever time to think as appropriate
13 in all the circumstances.
14
15 We note that you have brought your solicitor with
16 you and he is very welcome. If at any time during
17 the course of the questions you feel you would like
18 to consult with your solicitor by all means feel
19 free feel to do so.
20
21 Similarly, if your solicitor feels that he should
22 consult with you he is perfectly free to ask us
23 to adjourn for a few minutes and to hold that
24 consultation.
25 MR. TURVEY: Yes.
26 JUDGE 0'LEARY: We want it to be as stress
27 free for you as it
28 possibly can. It is not an exercise in catching
29 anybody out. That is not the purpose of the
5
1 exercise.
3 There really is only two formalities. One is that
4 the evidence which is given is taken under oath
5 and secondly ultimately the transcript which is
6 being taken of the evidence will be presented to
7 you for the purpose of signing; to make sure it
8 is accurate. That is all.
9 MR. TURVEY: Right.
10 JUDGE O'LEARY: So, the first, and if you
11 like the only formal part
12 today, is the question of the taking of the oath.
13 Ms. Cummins, who is our solicitor, will administer
14 the oath to you and we will ask you a few questions
15 then; all right?
16 MR. TURVEY: Thank you.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
6
1 MR. DES TURVEY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS
2 FOLLOWS BY JUDGE 0'LEARY:
5 1 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Mr. Turvey, I should say
6 there are a number of
7 different headings, quite discreet headings, that
8 we want to discuss with you today. The first of
9 such headings is a company called Kinsale Yacht
10 Charters Ltd?
11 A. Yes.
12 2 Q. Are you familiar with that Company?
13 A. I am but I had totally forgotten it.
14 3 Q. I understand that?
15 A. It is so long ago.
16 4 Q. I understand that of course?
17 A. But I am familiar with it, yes,.
18 5 Q. Yes?
19 A. At least I was familiar with it, yes.
20 6 Q. I suppose before that I should lay the foundation.
21 You are by profession?
22 A. An accountant.
23 7 Q. An accountant?
24 A. Yes.
25 8 Q. You are a Member of the Chartered Institute; is it?
26 A. I am, yes.
27 9 Q. Yes. Have you practised as an accountant?
28 A. No, no.
29 10 Q. No, you have not?
7
1 A. No.
2 11 Q. So...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. No, I qualified and I didn't go into practice after
4 qualifying.
5 12 Q. You did not go into practice?
6 A. Yes.
7 13 Q. Where did you spend your working life?
8 A. I had several places. First job in the Insurance
9 Corporation of Ireland after qualifying.
10 14 Q. Yes?
11 A. Subsequent to that The Irish Times. Subsequent
12 to that The Creation Group, which were printers
13 and publishers.
14 15 Q. I remember them, yes. Yes?
15 A. Following that Finnegan Menton Limited; estate
16 agents.
17 16 Q. Yes?
18 A. I left them. It is easier to remember now. I
19 left them in 1984 and went to work in an air freight
20 company in Dublin Airport called O'Reilly Aerlod
21 Ireland Ltd.
22 17 Q. Yes?
23 A. I stayed there until 1994 or thereabouts.
24 18 Q. Yes?
25 A. When the Company was taken over and the people
26 who took it over announced that they didn't employ
27 people over 65 five years of age. So, I had to
28 depart.
29 19 Q. Yes?
8
1 A. With a very attenuated pension because I was
2 meant to have worked on until I was 70 and the
3 pension would have been properly funded etc.
4 20 Q. Yes?
5 A. And when my previous employer, Finnegan Menton,
6 heard what had happened they contacted me and asked
7 me would I like to come back and work part-time;
8 three or four days a week.
9 21 Q. Yes?
10 A. Three or four half days a week in order to produce
11 some income for myself.
12 22 Q. Yes, yes?
13 A. And that is where I now am.
14 23 Q. That is right, yes. Have you ever worked for
15 Mr. Liam McGonagle?
16 A. No. My relationship with Liam McGonagle is --
17 sorry, I have worked for him but never on a
18 professional basis. My relationship with him is:
19 He has been a friend. He was a friend of mine
20 since we were about ten years of age.
21 24 Q. Yes?
22 A. We went to school together. We sailed boats
23 together, dinghies together, when we were kids.
24 We went to UCD together; he to do law and I to
25 do Arts prior to going into accountancy.
26 25 Q. Yes?
27 A. We were the best of friends all our lives.
28 26 Q. Yes?
29 A. Yes. I was best man at both his weddings. His

1 first wife died.
2 27 Q. Yes?
3 A. And the second -- he was married again.
4 28 Q. Yes?
5 A. He stood in for my father when I was married because
6 my father was ill in hospital.
7 29 Q. Yes?
8 A. So, we were as close as that.
9 30 Q. Yes?
10 A. There was no day normally that we didn't meet maybe.
11 He would be coming home.
12 31 Q. I know. So, you were very close?
13 A. May be going home in the evening for a pint or
14 whatever.
15 32 Q. However, you never worked for him as such?
16 A. Never worked for him but helped him out.
17 33 Q. And you would have done professional things for him?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 34 Q. Yes, I understand. Yes?
20 A. But never on a professional basis. There was never
21 any pay involved.
22 35 Q. There was not?
23 A. No.
24 36 Q. I see, I see?
25 A. No.
26 37 Q. I see. I note that you, I think, were one of the
27 minor beneficiaries of his Will?
28 A. That's right.
29 38 Q. Would that be fair?
10
3 A. Yes .
4 40 Q. And I presume that was as a result of the work that
5 you had done throughout the years probably?
6 A. It was. It was, yes.
7 41 Q. An acknowledgement of that?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 42 Q. And your friendship I suppose?
10 A. Yes .
11 43 Q. Yes?
12 A. And there was a further acknowledgment which we
13 will come to later.
14 44 Q. All right?
15 A. As you proceed.
16 45 Q. Grand, fair enough. That is very helpful indeed
17 and thank you very much for that. Getting back
18 now to the Kinsale Yacht Charters Ltd?
19 A. Yes .
20 46 Q. What kind of a company was this?
21 A. This is a long time ago and as I recollect it it's
22 only purpose was to charter a boat once for a
23 certain period of time that Liam, a sailing boat
24 that he, wanted to use sailing around the coast
25 of Ireland at the time when I think, if I recollect
26 rightly, I think, there was a major yachting
27 function to be held in whatever the year was and
28 he wanted to have a boat to attend at that function
29 and he decided that what he would do is he would

1 charter a boat.
2 47 Q. Yes?
3 A. Which he chartered for I think -- I can't remember
4 how long. I think it might have been a year but
5 to my knowledge I never had anything more to do
6 with that except that I was his friend; he was
7 doing it; I was Director of the Company.
8 48 Q. Yes?
9 A. But to my knowledge that Company never did anything
10 else. It simply chartered a boat.
11 49 Q. Yes. It must have been a big boat; was it?
12 A. It was a big boat. It was 60 feet.
13 50 Q. Because the amount borrowed from Guinness & Mahon
14 for that operation was £40,000?
15 A. Yes.
16 51 Q. That strikes me as very big now?
17 A. Well, he...(INTERJECTION).
18 52 Q. In 1973 context?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 53 Q. It might not be big today?
21 A. Well, now I will tell you: My recollection was that
22 he was chartering it for a restricted period, for a
23 year or something, because of this function that was
24 on but it may be, and I do not remember this, that
25 Kinsale Yacht Charters was the owner of the boat.
26 54 Q. Yes?
27 A. It may be that it bought the boat.
28 55 Q. Yes?
29 A. And subsequently, subsequent to the charter, sold
12
1 it again or something.
2 56 Q. Yes?
3 A. I quite frankly don't know that.
4 57 Q. Yes?
5 A. I never thought of...(INTERJECTION).
6 58 Q. Yes. Because I think you would agree with me
7 that £40, 000 ... (INTERJECTION)?
8 A. Yes.
9 59 Q. In 1973...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. It would have been -- it would have
11 been...(INTERJECTION).
12 60 Q. Was more than chartering costs?
13 A. It would have been the value of the boat.
14 61 Q. It would be the value of the boat?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 62 Q. Yes?
17 A. Yes.
18 63 Q. That is right?
19 A. Yes.
20 64 Q. Yes?
21 A. So, I am not certain the use to which it was put.
22 I had no day to day connection with the boat.
23 65 Q. Who owned the Company?
24 A. I would have assumed Liam McGonagle.
25 66 Q. Liam McGonagle?
26 A. Yes.
27 67 Q. Yes, yes, I understand?
28 A. Or I would -- that is all -- I can't remember but I
29 would assume that now.
13
1 68 Q. Yes. Yes?
2 A. But it was... (INTERJECTION) .
3 69 Q. Ye?
4 A. To my knowledge, certain knowledge, it never did
5 anything else.
6 70 Q. Yes. It borrowed £40,000 which ultimately became
7 £80,000 or it became £58,000 with rolled up
8 interest and that sort of thing?
9 A. I see.
10 71 Q. Do you remember the financial arrangements
11 involved in it?
12 A. No, I don't. I wasn't -- I don't think I was
13 involved in the financial arrangements. I can't
14 recollect being involved in them.
15 72 Q. You see unfortunately that does not square with our
16 evidence?
17 A. Yes, right.
18 73 Q. Could I first of all, and I will tell you why in a
19 second. I mean we are not trying to keep anything
20 from you?
21 A. Yes.
22 74 Q. We will explain the whole thing to you?
23 A. Yes.
24 75 Q. Kinsale Yacht Charters Ltd borrowed money from
25 Guinness & Mahon?
26 A. Yes.
27 76 Q. Had you contacts in Guinness & Mahon at that time?
28 A. Yes. Well, now I had contacts in Guinness & Mahon
29 from 1972 when I first got involved in the personal
14
1 affairs of Liam McGonagle.
2 77 Q. I see. Yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 78 Q. So, he...?
5 79 Q. He had contacts there?
6 A. He had contacts there, yes.
7 80 Q. What you are conveying to me, Mr. Turvey, is
8 that the contacts which you tapped into were really
9 his contacts?
10 A. They were. They were, yes.
11 81 Q. Is that a fair summary of what you are saying?
12 A. It is. It is, absolutely.
13 82 Q. Yes, very well?
14 A. I had one connection with Guinness & Mahon but --
15 not with Guinness & Mahon but with a person in
16 Guinness & Mahon and that was the late John
17 Guinness.
18 83 Q. Yes?
19 A. Who happened to be a member of Howth Yacht Club
20 where I sailed from. So, therefore I knew him.
21 84 Q. Yes?
22 A. But I didn't know him business wise. I had no
23 business connections with him.
24 85 Q. Yes, I see?
25 A. But I knew nobody else in Guinness & Mahon at that
26 point in time.
27 86 Q. And you were a member of Howth Yacht Club yourself?
28 A. Yes.
29 87 Q. Yes, I see. Was Mr. McGonagle?
15
1 A. He was.
2 88 Q. Yes, I see. I wonder if you would show Mr. Turvey
3 page 34? We have a number of documents here
4 (indicating) and I will show them to you (Exhibit
5 1) ?
6 A. Yes .
7 89 Q. Some of them are not really relevant at all?
8 A. Yes .
9 90 Q. I am only picking out the ones really that are
10 of any relevance to your goodself?
11 A. Right, yes.
12 91 Q. However, just to set the background this is probably
13 nothing to do with you either but just to set the
14 background: If you see Kinsale Yacht Club Charters
15 Ltd; Kinsale Yacht Charters Ltd? What we are going
16 to do is we are going to exclude the other names?
17 A. I see, yes.
18 92 Q. Because this a list (Exhibit 1)?
19 A. Yes .
20 93 Q. This is a list relevant to many people and this
21 is only one entry on the list (Same Handed) (Exhibit
22 1) ?
23 A. Right.
24 94 Q. We will give you a photostat of it later if you
25 require it. There is no difficulty with that.
26 All right. If you would just look at that? That
27 is a list (Exhibit 1) produced by Guinness & Mahon
28 and it shows various companies, one of which is
29 Kinsale Yacht Charters Ltd, and the amount of money

1 which they owed at the various dates. You see the
2 repayment date in the case of Kinsale Yacht Charters
3 was the 16th October 1995 and you see beyond that it
4 says :
5 "Suitably secured. Excess due to

interest"?
6
7 Do you see that?
9 95 Q. The normal meaning of suitably secured we have been
10 told by Guinness & Mahon is that it meant that it
11 was secured with money on deposit elsewhere?
12 A. Yes .
13 96 Q. Normally outside the jurisdiction?
14 A. Yes .
15 97 Q. Basically they were, so far as we can ascertain,
16 three possibilities. There was the North of Ireland
17 which was a very unusual situation but it did happen
18 on one or two occasions?
19 A. Yes .
20 98 Q. There was London which was very unusual but there
21 was the Channel Islands and there was Cayman?
22 A. Yes .
23 99 Q. It is the Cayman connection which we are interested
24 in really. We are not interested in the rest?
25 A. Yes .
26 100 Q. Did you know anything about that loan being suitably
27 secured?
28 A. I didn't but I did know about a Trust in the Cayman.
29 101 Q. Yes?
1 A. And I knew that it was organised by Guinness & Mahon
2 for Liam McGonagle at the time.
3 102 Q. Yes?
4 A. I was aware that it was there.
5 103 Q. Yes?
6 A. I had forgotten that he had ever borrowed from
7 Guinness & Mahon. I had forgotten that.
8 104 Q. Yes, I understand?
9 A. And there was only one borrowing I could ever
10 remember which was a borrowing when he borrowed
11 a bridging loan when he bought a house at some
12 stage.
13 105 Q. Yes?
14 A. And that was -- I remember was secured
15 by...(INTERJECTION).
16 106 Q. The name of that Trust in the Cayman Islands?
17 A. Was British Isles Investments.
18 107 Q. Yes, we are aware of that Trust?
19 A. Yes.
20 108 Q. That is grand?
21 A. Yes.
22 109 Q. That is grand. It is one of the things I will
23 be asking you about later. That is grand?
24 A. Now, I am.
25 MR. DALY: Judge O'Leary?
26 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes.
27 MR. DALY: What is this document
28 (indicating) (Exhibit 1)
29 so as I can write down in my notes what it is?
18
1 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. This document
2 is a list produced by
3 Guinness & Mahon of the persons and companies
4 who had loans that were £10,000 and over at the
5 time but basically it shows the status of the loans
6 at a particular time and you will see that in the
7 case of Kinsale Yacht Charters it shows that it is
8 suitably secured; do you understand that?
9 MR. DALY: Yes, I do.
10 A. Yes.
12 MR. DALY: However, surely this is
13 not all the loans they
14 might have had on that particular day?
15 JUDGE O'LEARY: No, no.
16 MR. DALY: It is
17 selected portion.
18 JUDGE O'LEARY: We have excluded the rest
19 of the loans.
20 MR. DALY: Yes.
21 JUDGE O'LEARY: We have excluded the rest
22 of the loans because they
23 are not of any interest to your client.
24 MR. DALY: So,
25 these...(INTERJECTION).
26 JUDGE O'LEARY: This is the only one you
27 are interested in,
28 Kinsale Yacht Charters.
29 MR. DALY: Fine.
19
1 JUDGE O'LEARY: All right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. DALY: Yes.
4 MS. MACKEY: This is just an extract
5 from a long list.
6 JUDGE O'LEARY: From a long list.
7 MR. DALY: Okay.
8 MS. MACKEY: A page of the list.
9 110 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: I mean there might be many
10 pages but they are nothing
11 to do with you?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 111 Q. Why should we be burdening you with the names of
14 people who have nothing whatsoever to do with you?
15 A. Right. I was aware of this Trust from 1972 when
16 I first got involved with Liam McGonagle in his
17 affairs.
18 112 Q. Yes?
19 A. And I would regard myself as probably the only
20 person that he ever revealed it to.
21 113 Q. Yes?
22 A. I know that he never mentioned it to his first wife
23 and I know that he never mentioned it to his second
24 wife.
25 114 Q. Yes?
26 A. But he did tell me from day one that he had it.
27 115 Q. Yes, yes, yes. That is very helpful. Thank you
28 very much indeed. The little bit of problem that
29 I have with Kinsale Yacht Charters is disclosed
20
1 in page 35. Really it is the only problem I have
2 with it (Same Handed) (Exhibit 2)?
3 A. Thank you.
4 116 Q. It is to do with the fact that -- this is an
5 internal Guinness & Mahon document again and this
6 shows their approval of an overdraft. It is a
7 slightly different overdraft. This was a day
8 to day overdraft now. It was not the £58,000?
9 A. Yes.
10 117 Q. You see that the security which was given in respect
11 of that according to them was a joint and several
12 guarantee by Liam McGonagle and Des Turvey but
13 Liam McGonagle's name was in fact taken out of it?
14 A. For an overdraft of £3,000?
15 118 Q. Yes. In fact if you show Mr. Turvey pages 36 & 37
16 (Exhibit 3), which really do not add much to it, you
17 will however s ee that in the facility letter that
18 was offered your name is specifically mentioned?
19 A. I have no recollection of it at all.
20 119 Q. You have no recollection?
21 A. None whatever and I can't understand or believe
22 that he would have -- why he would need a facility
23 of £3,000. I just don't understand it.
24 120 Q. Yes?
25 A. I mean he was a person who always had sufficient
26 money or funds for whatever he wanted to do.
27 121 Q. Yes. There may be a bookkeeping or tax or other
28 reason why he needed it?
29 A. Yes.
21
1 122 Q. That may well be possible?
2 A. I certainly don't recollect it and I can't explain
3 it.
4 123 Q. You cannot explain it?
5 A. I can't see.
6 124 Q. Yes. Had you any interest in Kinsale Yacht Charters
7 yourself?
8 A. No, except that I sailed on the boat.
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 126 Q. However, it was not your operation?
12 A. No, no, not at all, no.
13 127 Q. You sailing on the boat?
14 A. Yes.
15 128 Q. You participated that way?
16 A. Yes.
17 129 Q. I understand. Yes?
18 A. Because we sailed together for fifty years more or
19 less, you know?
20 130 Q. Yes. Would you believe it actually -- if you look
21 at page 40 onwards, Mr. Turvey, we actually have
22 the guarantee executed by you (Exhibit 4)?
23 A. By me, yes. Obviously, I must have from looking
24 at this (indicating), (Exhibit 4)yes.
25 131 Q. Yes. It does seem rather strange for £3,000 all
26 right?
27 A. Yes, and I just don't understand it.
28 132 Q. Sorry?
29 MS. MACKEY: In fact it was extended
22
1 from year to year.
2 133 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: It was extended from year
3 to year. Yes?
4 A. Is that -- yes, 1976. I thought it was 1971 for
5 a minute. I was going to say that it couldn't be.
6 134 Q. No, no. I think it is 1976?
7 A. No — 1976, yes.
8 135 Q. I think it is written up at page 40 at the top of it
9 (indicating) (Exhibit 4)?
10 A. Yes, I see 1976 up there but I had looked at the
11 bottom.
12 136 Q. Yes?
13 A. About my signature.
14 137 Q. I know. It think it is just a bad "1"?
15 A. 1971, yes.
16 138 Q. A bad "6" I should say?
17 A. Yes.
18 139 Q. It looks like a "1"?
19 A. But it is your signature.
20 140 Q. I mean that is your signature; is it?
21 A. Itis, yes. Itis, yes.
22 141 Q. It is you?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 142 Q. All right. I think we will just leave that to one
25 side for the moment, Mr. Turvey?
26 A. Right.
27 143 Q. It is not matter which excites me hugely in that
28 regard?
29 A. Yes.
23
1 144 Q. That is the explanation for it anyway?
2 A. But I might add that it mystifies me, you know?
4 A. Yes .
5 146 Q. Yes, I understand. Now I just have one or two
6 things to get out of the way. The second thing
7 to which I would like to direct your attention
8 to is a company called a Camille Investments?
9 A. Yes .
10 147 Q. Are you familiar with that company?
11 A. I am, yes.
12 148 Q. What was that company?
13 A. That company was an investment company that Liam
14 used to -- that possibly is a case where he may
15 have had facilities from Guinness & Mahon. He
16 bought stocks and shares through his stock brokers,
17 who were Dudgeons, and he also used it -- as far
18 as I recollect it was the owner, I think any
19 way it was the owner, of his office premises
20 in Molesworth Street when he worked there.
21 149 Q. I see?
22 A. That company presented its accounts every year to
23 the Revenue, the tax people, and did accounts and
24 was on record. Everything should be available
25 for it. Yes.
26 150 Q. I think ultimately it was dissolved; is that so?
27 A. It was dissolved, yes. It went into liquidation a
28 long time ago now.
29 151 Q. Can we take it that Camille Investments Limited

1 was a Liam McGonagle vehicle?
2 A. Yes, absolutely.
3 152 Q. Did you have any interest in it?
4 A. No, but I did help him with it and I did
5 liaise between him and the stockbrokers,
6 who were Dudgeons, and between him and
7 Guinness & Mahon because I think, if I recollect
8 rightly, it's common with lots of other people; its
9 stocks and shares where registered in the name of
10 Mars Nominees.
11 153 Q. Yes?
12 A. Who were a Guinness & Mahon nominee company formed
13 for that purpose; to hold stocks and shares for
14 clients.
15 154 Q. Yes?
16 A. And?
17 155 Q. Not in the name of Camille Investments?
18 A. I think that is the way it was done, yes.
19 156 Q. Yes?
20 A. And it was done. It was common practice at the
21 time.
22 157 Q. Yes?
23 A. I don't think it was done for any reason of hiding
24 anything because it was a totally up front company,
25 you know?
26 158 Q. Organisation, yes. How would you describe your
27 relationship with Camille Investments?
28 A. Well, merely that I was a friend of Liam's. He
29 consulted me. We used to talk about buying stocks
25
1 and shares and what he should buy and what he
2 should sell and how he should hold them etc.
3 159 Q. Yes?
4 A. And also I was then working in Finnegan Menton from
5 1972. Our offices were in Merrion Row.
6 160 Q. Yes?
7 A. Liam's offices were in Molesworth Street and
8 Guinness & Mahon was in Dame Street.
9 161 Q. Yes?
10 A. And I was very much a runner. We, Finnegan Menton,
11 had some bank accounts with Guinness & Mahon. I
12 had reason to liaise with Guinness & Mahon on a
13 regular basis. So, Liam used me as a person to
14 do the donkey work, if you like, between him and
15 Guinness & Mahon on behalf of Camille Investments.
16 162 Q. Yes. Do you mind me asking: Were you paid for
17 that?
18 A. No, no.
19 163 Q. You were not paid for that?
20 A. No, no, no.
21 164 Q. Would you be surprised that Dudgeons, or whatever
22 or however they pronounce it?
23 A. Yes .
24 165 Q. That they described you as the Chief Executive of
25 Camille Investments?
26 A. I would be very surprised.
27 166 Q. You might show Mr. Turvey page 72 (Same Handed)
28 (Exhibit 5)?
29 A. Thank you. It is the first time I have been

1 Chief Executive of anything.
2 167 Q. Mr. Turvey, with friends like that who needs
3 enemies?
4 A. Yes. Somebody used their imagination because there
5 was no such thing as a Chief Executive. Camille,
6 it, didn't have any employees. Camille Investments
7 was simply Liam McGonagle, you know?
8 168 Q. I understand?
9 A. So?
10 169 Q. It was a vehicle which he used and therefore it
11 existed in his head; is that a fair summary?
12 A. Yes, it was an investment company and there probably
13 were tax advantages at the time if you had a
14 portfolio of investments; in having them
15 in a limited company rather than in your name.
16 170 Q. Yes?
17 A. I don't know but I imagine that was part of the
18 thinking.
19 171 Q. Yes, yes?
20 A. But to describe Camille Investment as having had
21 a Chief Executive is nonsense really, you know?
22 172 Q. Yes, yes. I see. Do you see if you would show the
23 Chief Executive there of Camille Investments page 79
24 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 6)?
25 A. Thanks.
26 173 Q. You will see where our interest comes in in
27 Camille Investments, Mr. Turvey?
28 A. Right.
29 174 Q. This is our interest in it really. I mean we
27
1 are not a bit interested in how people organise
2 their affairs except insofar as it impinges on our
3 work?
4 A. Yes. I think I remember this all right and I did
5 this on behalf of Liam. I think now but I am not
6 sure that it was a bridging loan that he needed.
7 175 Q. Yes?
8 A. I can't see the date on it but even then I wouldn't
9 remember the date.
10 176 Q. Yes. I think it is the 16th August 1978?
11 A. Yes .
12 177 Q. If you look at the bottom (indicating) (Exhibit 6)?
13 A. I see it, yes, yes. I think it was a bridging loan
14 he needed when he was selling his house called
15 Hilltop in Howth and was purchasing a new house
16 in Howth called The Tansey.
17 178 Q. Yes?
18 A. And in the interim between the purchase and the sale
19 he needed bridging finance.
20 179 Q. Yes?
21 A. And I think...
22 180 Q. However, as you will appreciate what we are
23 interested in is the last portion of it. I do
24 not care what he was doing with his money really:
25 "GMCT"?
26 A. GMCT was Guinness...
27 181 Q. Is Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
28 A. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, yes.
29 182 Q. Exactly?
1 A. Yes .
2 183 Q. Which is an earlier name of "Ansbacher"?
3 A. Yes. So, it's -- I would think that's simply that
4 money that he had in that British Isles Investments
5 Limited, that became a Trust, was being used as
6 some kind of support or security for this loan
7 (indicating).
8 184 Q. Can we be reasonably sure that it was British Isles
9 Investments; that there was not a second Trust
10 company there?
11 A. Not to my knowledge.
12 185 Q. Not to your knowledge?
13 A. Not to my knowledge, no. Now, it might have been
14 called -- there was a company called British Isles
15 Investments Limited and I think that was a company
16 beneath the Trust.
17 186 Q. Yes?
18 A. Which was British Isles Investment Trust.
20 A. You know?
21 188 Q. I do?
22 A. But the distinction between the two? I think
23 British Isles Investments Limited was probably
24 the company that held whatever in stocks and
25 shares and cash that was there.
26 189 Q. Yes?
27 A. And the trust was above the Company in some way.
28 190 Q. Is that trust still there; do you think?
29 A. No, it's not there.

1 191 Q. No?
2 A. It is not there, because when that changed to
3 "Ansbacher" it very quickly changed then from
4 "Ansbacher" -- the man who ran that was a man called
5 John Furze, as you probably know.
6 192 Q. Yes. Yes?
7 A. And he broke off from "Ansbacher" and formed some
8 new company of his own that Liam McGonagle didn't
9 want to be connected with and he shifted the Trust
10 then from Cayman to Guernsey.
11 193 Q. Yes?
12 A. To a company which had been a Guinness & Mahon
13 company in Guernsey or maybe was then.
14 194 Q. What was the name of that company?
15 A. It was Guinness Mahon Guernsey Trust or Jersey Trust
16 or something.
17 195 Q. Yes?
18 A. It was the people and they later became Credit
19 Suisse.
20 196 Q. Yes. Do you remember the operating arm of that
21 company? If I gave you a name?
22 A. There were a number of companies.
23 197 Q. If I gave you the name College Trustees?
24 A. Yes.
25 198 Q. Would it mean anything to you?
26 A. Yes, that rings a bell and there was something
27 called Sovereign Management as well.
28 199 Q. Sovereign Management. Yes?
29 A. I don't know what the interrelationship between
30
1 those was.
2 200 Q. Yes. However, that is where he transferred it to?
3 A. Yes.
4 201 Q. I see?
5 A. Yes.
6 202 Q. I see. As far as you are concerned it could still
7 be there. As far as you are concerned you do not
8 know?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 203 Q. You do not know?
11 A. Yes, I assume it is. In fact I know it is still
12 there.
13 204 Q. Yes, yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 205 Q. Fair enough. However, that is really none of our
16 business. We are not interested in that. Did you
17 have any interest in Camille Investments Limited?
18 A. No. You mean a financial interest?
19 206 Q. Yes?
20 A. No.
21 207 Q. Yes. However, you seem to have done quite an amount
22 of work for it?
23 A. I did. I used to keep records for him as best I
24 could.
25 208 Q. Yes?
26 A. Records of stocks and shares and their current
27 valuations; update the valuations from the
28 newspapers occasionally when he wanted to
29 know what they were worth.
31
1 209 Q. Yes?
2 A. And did some basic book-keeping as well.
3 210 Q. Do you remember how many loans he got from
4 the Company?
5 A. I would have thought very few. That £3,000 thing
6 that was mentioned there (indicating) (Exhibit 2).
7 211 Q. I had forgotten that now?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 212 Q. I am just dealing now with Camille Investments?
10 A. With Camille -- yes, sorry, I was thinking -- yes.
11 213 Q. Yes?
12 A. Yes. I can't remember but I do think he may have
13 needed loans in the early days in order to purchase
14 the initial portfolio of investments but after some
15 time I seem to recollect that the Company was
16 standing on its own two feet without borrowings
17 and I don't recollect borrowings by Camille
18 Investments but I couldn't be too sure.
19 214 Q. Yes?
20 A. I mean --
21 215 Q. Yes, I see?
22 A. Its, Camille Investments, accounts, which must be
23 somewhere, would show the borrowing situation if
24 there was any.
25 216 Q. Yes, yes. However, according to our records Camille
26 Investments Limited had about £100,000 borrowing for
27 a number of years; not just on a short-term basis.
28 It had a facility for £100,000 any way?
29 A. Yes, a facility may be but in what years?
32
1 217 Q. If you would show Mr. Turvey.
2 A. Would it have before or after that £120,000?
3 218 Q. If you would show Mr. Turvey page, if you show him
4 page, 83 & 84 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 7)?
5 A. Thank you.
6 219 Q. That is a 1979 situation?
7 A. Yes .
8 220 Q. And page 94 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 8)?
9 A. That is just a standard letter covering things
10 like that obviously.
11 221 Q. And page 94 is a 1983...(INTERJECTION) (Exhibit 8)?
12 A. Yes. I wonder was it ever -- was it used. I
13 just don't know but if it was going on for all
14 those years I would feel it could easily have been a
15 facility allowing him to overdraw, or the Company to
16 overdraw, if it had to.
17 222 Q. And page 96 because what page 96 shows is that the
18 facility is £100,000 but in fact he had an overdrawn
19 balance of £30,000 (Exhibit 9)?
20 A. In 1996?
21 223 Q. In 1983. No, it is page 96 (Exhibit 9)?
22 A. Sorry, yes.
23 224 Q. It is 1983?
24 A. Yes .
25 "Overdraft...balance".
26 I see it there, yes. Well, he probably had an
27 overdraft. So, it may have had an overdraft as
28 a result of -- one other thing that Camille
29 Investments did was: It lent money to property

1 companies that Liam McGonagle was -- had an
2 interest in.
3 225 Q. Yes?
4 A. I had forgotten that now. During the period that
5 interest rates were very high and he was involved in
6 several properties where the interest payable for
7 the borrowings for these properties exceeded the
8 rental income in the early days.
9 226 Q. Yes?
10 A. Until rent reviews brought the rent higher and
11 the property companies then were able to cover
12 the interest payments.
13 227 Q. Yes?
14 A. And repay the loans eventually.
15 228 Q. Have you the names of those companies, Mr. Turvey?
16 A. Yes, they are the companies within a Group called
17 Ceros Investments Limited.
18 229 Q. Yes?
19 A. And one was Lisle Investment Company Limited;
20 L-i-s-l-e.
21 230 Q. Yes?
22 A. One was Grafton Engineering Limited.
23 231 Q. Yes?
24 A. Each of them had a building.
25 232 Q. Yes?
26 A. Lisle Investment Company was a building in
27 Molesworth Street.
28 233 Q. Yes?
29 A. Grafton Engineering Limited was a building
34
1 in Grafton Street.
2 234 Q. Yes?
3 A. Dublin Shop Investments Limited was a building
4 in North Earl Street.
5 235 Q. Yes?
6 A. And they all were properties that he and two other
7 friends of his purchased and revamped or refurbished
8 them, or whatever you call it, to some extent; got
9 tenants for them; let the asset improve as rent
10 reviews increased; and then sold them off.
11 236 Q. What about the name, "Pine Securities"? Does that
12 mean anything to you?
13 A. It does but it has no connection whatever with
14 Liam McGonagle.
15 237 Q. Had it not?
16 A. Pine Securities Limited was a company owned by
17 John Finnegan of Finnegan Menton and it was his
18 version of Camille Investments Limited. It was an
19 investment company which also lent money to these
20 property companies in order to enable it to pay
21 back interest.
22 238 Q. I wonder would you show Mr. Turvey page 87, please
23 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 10)? You can keep those
24 (indicating). You can keep them?
25 A. Right, right.
26 239 Q. You can keep those. We will photostat them before
27 you go away?
28 A. Right.
29 240 Q. You are entitled to keep whatever you have.
35
1 Do you see that there now (indicating) (Exhibit 10)?
2 A. Yes, that would probably be and this happened --
3 that would probably be where interest was due on
4 two -- let me think? No. I would think -- I don't
5 remember the incident but I would think it was
6 something -- a case where an investment was
7 purchased of some kind which -- between either
8 Liam McGonagle and John Finnegan and possibly a
9 third party, Ken 0'Reilly-Hyland, and Camille
10 paid out whatever the cost was and got it back
11 from the other parties.
12 241 Q. Yes. So, there was a connection to the extent
13 that they were involved in joint enterprises?
14 A. They were.
15 242 Q. Yes?
16 A. In fact initially when the Trust was set up this was
17 before I was involved now with him in business
18 affairs but when the Trust was set up it was
19 somewhere I think about 1970 or 1971.
20 243 Q. Yes?
21 A. Liam McGonagle and Ken 0'Reilly-Hyland had developed
22 a property on Marlborough Street between them they
23 had developed the property. They got a tenant, the
24 Government, the Department of Post & Telegraphs I
25 think, and they sold the property on as an
26 investment and they made a lot of money between
27 the two of them, there was just the two there then,
28 and Liam's share of it was four hundred and
29 something thousand pounds and that is the money
36
1 that went to Cayman.
2 244 Q. Yes, I see?
3 A. And it went there largely because
4 Ken 0'Reilly-Hyland, who was with him in that,
5 had for some time been a member of Lloyds and
6 he had persuaded Liam that it would be a good
7 idea for Liam to become a member of Lloyds and
8 Ken 0'Reilly-Hyland had put the money out there
9 because Lloyds -- as you know there is no limit
10 to your liability in Lloyds. So, if Lloyds lose
11 money Lloyds come to you if you are a member and
12 they can take your house and everything from you
13 because your liability is totally unlimited.
14 245 Q. Yes?
15 A. So, what Ken 0'Reilly-Hyland had done, and had
16 talked Liam McGonagle into doing, was to put the
17 money into a foreign Trust where it couldn't be
18 touched by and that was at a time, this all
19 happened at a time, before Capital Gains Tax. There
20 was no Capital Gains Tax. So, that the profit they
21 made on that venture was not taxable and it was at a
22 time when we were still in the Sterling area so
23 there was no breach of exchange control regulations.
24 It was perfectly legitimate to do that at the time.
25 246 Q. Yes?
26 A. And that is the source of the money that is out
27 there.
28 247 Q. Yes. We are not investigating the source of
29 people's money at all?
37
1 A. Yes, right, yes.
2 248 Q. Yes. We are just.
3 A. But that I think.
4 249 Q. We are accepting it was there if it was there?
5 A. That -- I diverted onto that through that thing
6 about the £19,000. I think that was probably
7 some expense or other or something connected with
8 a joint investment between either two or three of
9 them that Camille paid out, possibly now because
10 I am only guessing, and got back his share from
11 Pine Securities.
12 250 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Turvey. I wonder would you
13 show Mr. Turvey number 71A (Exhibit 11)? You will
14 have to exclude from it the non-relevant list. This
15 is another list from Guinness & Mahon of persons
16 with more than £10,000. It is 71A.
17 MS. MACKEY: It is just before page 71.
18 It is the page between 69
19 and 71 or between 70 and 72 (Exhibit 11).
20 MR. DALY: Okay.
21 251 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: There are people — the
22 reason I am showing you
23 this is that it is a 1974 document. I just
24 want you to understand that according to evidence
25 which we have the borrowings went on for period of
26 eight years?
27 A. The borrowing in Camille Investments?
28 252 Q. Yes?
29 A. Yes.
38
1 253 Q. Rather than the shorter period of time to which
2 you have originally made reference?
3 A. Yes. Well, now, I think I may wrong there. It is
4 just that I didn't recollect that.
5 254 Q. Yes?
6 A. I was thinking of one particular borrowing. There
7 was a running overdraft the whole time because there
8 were assets against it. There were the stocks and
9 shares against it.
10 255 Q. Yes?
11 A. So, it may easily be that the borrowings went on.
12 256 Q. You might just have a look at that there
13 (indicating) and you will see that. This as I
14 say is a GMI list produced by them of various
15 borrowers who owed them over £10,000 and you can see
16 that it is 1975 there?
17 A. Yes. Yes, I see it there.
18 257 Q. You can see that?
19 A. Yes. Now, I think that is it. My recollection
20 of that had been wrong. It is quite possible and
21 as I said the Camille Investments accounts would
22 show it.
23 258 Q. Yes?
24 A. It is quite possible there was an overdraft all the
25 time because the assets, the stocks and shares, were
26 there against it and like any one investing stocks
27 and shares he was hoping that it would achieve
28 capital growth over the period and the stocks and
29 shares would end up worth more than the money
39
1 borrowed.
2 259 Q. Yes, yes. I think we can leave Camille Investments
3 to one side now, Mr. Turvey?
4 A. Yes.
5 260 Q. Can I take it that you are saying to us that
6 Pine Securities was a company which had a
7 Mr. Finnegan connection rather than
8 a Mr. McGonagle connection?
9 A. Yes, absolutely.
10 261 Q. Yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 262 Q. Did you do work for that Company?
13 A. I did because I worked with Mr. Finnegan.
14 263 Q. Yes. That would have been part of my duties?
15 A. I was an employee.
16 264 Q. Your ordinary work?
17 A. It would, yes.
18 265 Q. Yes?
19 A. I was an employee of the Company but I worked
20 with him on his personal affairs.
21 266 Q. Yes?
22 A. In more or less the same way as I advised
23 Liam McGonagle on a friendship basis.
24 267 Q. Yes?
25 A. I did it in Finnegan Menton as part of my duties.
26 2 68 Q. Yes. Do you know whether that Company had
27 borrowings from time to time?
28 A. It had. It had very very big borrowings.
29 269 Q. Very big borrowings?
40
1 A. Yes.
2 270 Q. Do you know whether they were secured by off-shore
3 deposits?
4 A. Yes.
5 271 Q. They were?
6 A. Yes.
7 272 Q. Okay. What was the location of those to your
8 knowledge?
9 A. The same. It was the Cayman Islands.
10 273 Q. The Cayman Islands?
11 A. Yes.
12 274 Q. Yes. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 275 Q. Or subsequently "Ansbacher"?
15 A. Yes.
16 276 Q. We have various documents which would suggest that
17 but obviously if that is your view there is no
18 point in us labouring that point. Do you remember
19 a Mr. Sam Field-Corbertt?
20 A. I do.
21 277 Q. Had he an involvement in Pine Securities?
22 A. Not really but I think he was a director in that
23 the Company had been set up by Guinness & Mahon.
24 278 Q. Yes?
25 A. Or by Des Traynor.
26 279 Q. Yes?
27 A. And Sam Field-Corbett was in the business of
28 acting as a Company Secretarial Office where
29 they registered companies.
41
1 280 Q. Yes?
2 A. Formed companies, did annual returns for companies
3 and supplied directors.
4 281 Q. Yes?
5 A. Which was a fairly common practice in those days;
6 to have nominee directors who had no connection
7 with the Company.
8 282 Q. Yes, yes?
9 A. And he was one of those.
10 283 Q. Yes. Did he have any beneficial ownership in
11 the Company?
12 A. No, no, no.
13 284 Q. Yes. Was he the man who made the arrangements
14 for the back to back facilities in all of that?
15 A. I wouldn't have thought so.
16 285 Q. Yes?
17 A. He probably would have been aware of them but
18 I wouldn't have thought he made the arrangements.
19 I would have thought that Liam McGonagle would have
20 made the arrangements or Des Traynor would have made
21 the arrangements for Liam McGonagle.
22 286 Q. Yes?
23 A. Direct with Liam McGonagle rather than with
24 Sam Field Corbett.
25 287 Q. Yes?
26 A. I would have thought that Sam Field-Corbett's
27 involvement was simply as a provider of company
28 secretarial services.
29 288 Q. What was your position in Pine Securities?
42
1 A. Simply that it was John Finnegan's company. Now, I
2 can't remember but he may have made me Secretary
3 no, I don't think he did make me Secretary. I may
4 have been a cheque signatary at some stage.
5 289 Q. A cheque signatory?
6 A. Yes .
7 290 Q. Yes?
8 A. I don't think I was Secretary and I certainly wasn't
9 a Director to my recollection.
10 291 Q. Yes?
11 A. Because I think the directors...
12 292 Q. However, you might have had signing authority?
13 A. I could have, yes.
14 293 Q. Yes?
15 A. I think I did for some time. I don't know for
16 how long.
17 294 Q. Yes. That Company, Pine Securities Limited: Do
18 you know the name of the entity that was providing
19 it with the back to back facility?
20 A. I did at the time. There was a company at some
21 stage called High Seas Investments but whether
22 that was it or not I don't know. I am not quite
23 sure.
24 295 Q. You are not sure. Ms. Mackey seems to think that
25 we are aware of the name of the Company?
26 A. Yes. I am not certain now.
27 296 Q. Because in a document that I have here dealing with
28 it they just talk about the other side. They do not
29 actually refer to the Company by name?
43
1 A. Yes. I know that...(INTERJECTION).
2 297 Q. That is page 170?
3 A. Yes. I know there was a Company out there called
4 High Seas and I know that there was a connection
5 but I think it changed because I know in later
6 years High Seas wasn't there.
8 A. But it must have changed its name to something else
9 which I can't remember.
10 299 Q. You might show Mr. Turvey page 117 (Exhibit 12)
11 because I have another question to ask them on that
13 A. Thank you.
14 300 Q. This is a 1978 document, Mr. Turvey (Exhibit 12)?
15 A. Yes.
16 301 Q. You were working in Finnegan Menton at that stage;
17 were you?
18 A. I was, yes.
19 302 Q. Or whatever particular name they had at that time?
20 A. Yes.
21 303 Q. This is an internal memo from POD to TRL (Exhibit
22 12). I think that is a Mr. O'Dwyer and a Mr.
23 Leonard?
25 304 Q. It says:
26
"The above facility extended for a
27 period of one year at that time as per
facility letter dated 15th April 1978.
28 The Balance was £360,585.08 interest
rate 12% per annum fixed. JDT..."
29
44
2 Who I think is Mr. Traynor?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 305 Q.
5 "...asked me to phone Des Turvey to

discuss with him the possibility of
6 lowering the interest rate but at the
same time applying a realistic rate.
7 Agreed to make a loan available at one
and a half percent over one year funds
8 on the 18th April, i.e 11%, such rate
to apply for a year. Bearing in mind
9 that interest was debited 30th June I
said we would apply the new rate from
10 1st July 1978. Can you please adjust
the "other side". Please confirm at
11 your convenience"?
12
13 A. That indicated that there was an interest
14 arrangement where whatever rate of interest
15 was charged here -- that rate less a certain
16 amount -- the interest on deposits was adjusted
17 in some way accordingly.
18 306 Q. Yes?
19 A. So, that it was a backing situation.
20 307 Q. Yes?
21 A. And they had some method of relating the two
22 interest rates that gave Guinness & Mahon a margin
23 308 Q. I think what they are conveying there is that the
24 facility letter with a 12% fixed rate is no longer
25 realistic and that it should be lower. In other
26 words obviously look odd?
27 A. It does. It seems to infer that.
28 309 Q. It would look very odd?
29 A. Yes, yes.
45
1 310 Q. If you were paying 12% when you could go to
2 the market and get it at 11% or 10%?
3 A. Yes, yes. It obviously does infer that, yes.
4 311 Q. Yes. Do you remember those kind of arrangements
5 yourself?
6 A. Well, I remember the fact they had a relationship
7 between the two interest rates.
8 312 Q. Yes?
9 A. And that there was a margin in it for
11 313 Q. Yes?
12 A. But to what extent they played around with the
13 rates I don't know. I assumed they went along
14 with whatever the going rate was at the time.
15 314 Q. They did?
16 A. On one side.
17 315 Q. But they did it in retrospect if you understand
18 what I mean?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 316 Q. You can appreciate now they were kind of catching
21 up here?
22 A. Yes.
23 317 Q. You see one of the problems is that insofar as rates
24 were charged which were unrealistic?
25 A. Yes.
26 318 Q. Presumably there was a tax credit in respect of
27 those?
28 A. No, I don't think so because to my knowledge
29 companies like Pine Securities, investment companies
46
1 I don't think bank interest was an allowable charge
2 for tax purposes.
3 319 Q. However, were they an investment company or were
4 they a property company?
5 A. No, it was an investment company. It didn't own
6 property. It lent money to property companies but
7 it was not a property company and to my knowledge
8 there was never tax relief claimed. There couldn't
9 have been to my knowledge.
10 320 Q. Yes?
11 A. The Auditors couldn't have claimed the tax unless my
12 memory is letting me down very badly.
13 321 Q. It may well be a situation where they borrowed money
14 and lent it on at the same rate to a property
15 company who could create interest or could charge
16 interest?
17 A. No, Pine Securities simply lent the money to the
18 property companies at no interest.
19 322 Q. At no interest?
20 A. They didn't charge interest.
21 323 Q. I see?
22 A. Any more than Camille Investments didn't charge
23 interest for what it lent.
24 324 Q. I see. You are fairly sure of that; are you?
25 A. I'm practically 100% certain of that, yes.
26 325 Q. All right. Very well. Thank you very much. We
27 can leave the position of that now. I have just a
28 few things to ask you on British Isles Investments
29 Limited; nothing really of any great consequence.

1 As I think we fairly well know the situation do you
2 see this (indicating); page 121 (Same Handed)
3 (Exhibit 13)?
4 A. Thank you.
5 326 Q. I presume you do not remember that transaction?
6 A. I don't remember the specific transaction but I
7 do remember a transaction of that type, yes.
8 327 Q. Yes. Mr. McGonagle would be drawing down money
9 that he would require for some purpose?
10 A. Yes .
11 328 Q. I mean it might be going on holidays or it might be.
12 A. It could be anything like that but to my knowledge
13 money was drawn like that and it was charged to
14 British Isles Investments Limited. It was charged
15 to the trust as a loan.
16 329 Q. Yes?
17 A. That is my recollection of what happened there.
18 330 Q. However, in reality it was money which Mr. McGonagle
19 had at his disposal?
20 A. It was, yes.
21 331 Q. And which he was not really under any obligation to
22 repay?
23 A. That he what?
24 332 Q. He was not under any real obligation to repay?
25 A. To repay?
26 333 Q. Yes?
27 A. Probably not. Probably not, yes.
28 MS. MACKEY: Could I just ask one
29 question there?
48
1 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes, sure.
2 334 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Turvey, did British
3 Isles Investments Limited
4 have accounts in Guinness & Mahon in its own name?
6 MS. MACKEY: When it refers to an
7 account there (indicating)
8 (Exhibit 13).
9 A. Yes, I think they probably did. Guinness & Mahon
10 had some arrangement whereby they were able to draw
11 money and charge it.
12 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
13 A. To British Isles Investments Limited. Sorry, you
14 said something there, John?
15 MR. DALY: Just on the question of
16 what Liam McGonagle might
17 have been taking the money out for. You wouldn't
18 know.
19 A. I didn't. I don't really know.
20 JUDGE O'LEARY: Well, I think now that
21 is a quite unhelpful
22 intervention. You should not tell Mr. Turvey what
23 way to answer a question. You are instructing the
24 witness. A consultation between you and the witness
25 is quite a different matter. You are not entitled
26 to instruct the witness to answer a question in a
27 particular way.
28 MR. DALY: However, I know from my
29 instructions that the
49
1 answer that he gave you, Judge.
2 335 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: I am not interested in
3 your instructions. I
4 would not ask you what your instructions were.
5 It would be improper of me and I do not want to
6 know what your instructions are. If you would show
7 Mr. Turvey page 124 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 14)?
8 A. Thank you.
9 336 Q. Which you may have had no personal involvement in
10 at all, Mr. Turvey, but that apparently is a payment
11 to British Isles Investments Limited to pay
12 Messrs. Dudgeons who were the stock brokers;
13 is that not correct?
15 337 Q. Yes. What I am particularly interested in is:
16
17 "I have debited the A/E Dollar

Deposit"?
18
19
20 A. That was British Isles.
21 338 Q. That was British Isles?
22 A. That was an abbreviation or a code or whatever.
23 339 Q. A code which they used?
24 A. Yes.
25 340 Q. I see. Are you aware of any other codes that were
26 used?
27 A. That is the one that comes to my mind immediately.
28 341 Q. Yes?
29 A. Because I was aware of it. Now, they may have had
50
1 some other one but if there were others I don't
2 recollect them but I do recollect that.
3 342 Q. Yes. Ms. Mackey draws my attention to page 74
4 (Exhibit 15). Ms. Mackey knows everything and she
5 draws my attention to page 74 (Same Handed). This
6 is reference to the A/E accounts; do I understand
7 that?
8 A. I do.
9 343 Q. They are various instructions to Anette Beecher
10 who appears only was as an employee of the
12 A. She was, yes.
13 344 Q. And you had various things to do but ultimately
14 convert or designate all Irish pounds in the "N"
15 account to English pounds?
16 A. I assume -- see it's headed A/E account.
17 345 Q. Yes?
18 A. And I assume that"N" account must have been
19 something under A/E in the same group. I don't
20 remember it but it might easily be indicating a
21 currency, you know?
22 346 Q. Yes?
23 A. It might. In other words within the A/E thing there
24 might have been a sterling account or a dollar
25 account or whatever and one of them might have been
26 called "N" account. I don't recollect.
27 347 Q. Yes. You think there may have been sub accounts
28 under the A/E account?
29 A. Yes, there may have been or within it, yes.
51
1 348 Q. Yes. Are you familiar with any main account called
2 the"N" account?
3 A. No.
4 349 Q. No?
5 A. No, I can't remember one.
6 350 Q. Yes?
7 A. The only one I remember is A/E which I regard as the
8 code for British Isles.
9 351 Q. Yes. Did Camille Investments have any such
10 lodgments themselves or any such accounts
11 themselves?
12 A. I wouldn't have thought so because Camille
13 Investments was not an off-shore situation
14 in any way so I wouldn't have thought so.
15 They would, you know...(INTERJECTION).
16 352 Q. It is just that there is a note down at the end of
17 that:
18
19 "File: Camille Investments Company."
20
21 File: Camille Investments appears to be written in
22 somebody's handwriting that could be GMI as you
23 know. Is that you writing there "Company"?
24 A. No, it's not, no.
25 353 Q. It is not. All right?
26 A. I don't know.
27 354 Q. That is helpful?
28 A. I don't know that.
29 355 Q. Thank you very much?
52
1 A. Yes.
2 356 Q. Mr. McGonagle had business with a man by the name of
3 Waldron; is that not right?
4 A. Yes. Well, he indulged in a few investments
5 that were Oliver Waldron connected.
6 357 Q. I do not want to know anything about that?
7 A. Yes.
8 358 Q. Because there is a family connection between
9 Dr. Waldron and myself?
10 A. I see.
11 359 Q. I just do not want to know?
12 A. Right, right.
13 360 Q. So, if any questions arise on that it will be dealt
14 with by Ms. Mackey; you see?
15 A. Right, okay.
16 361 Q. Yes. It is nothing at all to do with me?
17 A. Yes.
18 362 Q. I am not dealing with that case. As you will
19 appreciate with so many people involved there is
20 bound to be people from time to time that we know or
21 one of us knows?
22 A. Yes, sure.
23 363 Q. Or is connected with in some way?
24 A. Yes.
25 364 Q. We will just leave that to one side?
26 A. Well, Oliver Waldron simply suggested a couple
27 of investments to him.
28 365 Q. All right?
29 A. At certain times, yes.
53
1 366 Q. Well, sure that is grand. Yes. What about
2 Beresford Investments?
3 A. That's a long long way back before my time really.
4 367 Q. Yes?
5 A. And it was all part of a property development
6 group which included several of the directors
7 of Guinness & Mahon.
8 368 Q. Yes?
9 A. And Liam had an involvement. John Finnegan had an
10 involvement.
11 369 Q. Yes. What did they do?
12 A. Originally, as far as I know, this being the 1960's
13 now. It would be before I was involved; to my
14 knowledge any way.
15 370 Q. Yes?
16 A. I remember the file being there. I remember seeing
17 stuff on it but I think they developed a warehouse
18 somewhere behind the Four Courts. Beresford
19 Warehouse or some name like that. They developed
20 it and I think the Company was connected in some
21 way with the Marlborough Group.
22 371 Q. Before I ask you about that: Do you know who owned
23 it first of all? Who owned the Company?
24 A. I don't know.
25 MR. DALY: Just a minute.
27 MR. DALY: Just a minute, Judge. My
28 client is answering these
29 questions on the presumption that they are connected
54
1 with the affairs of Mr. McGonagle and Kinsale Yacht
2 Charters.
3 JUDGE O'LEARY: No.
4 MR. DALY: If there are no
5 connections then
6 Mr. Turvey has come here today to answer questions
7 about those matters and I would be obliged if you
8 would stick to that.
9 372 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes, I see. I see, yes.
10 Mr. Turvey, your solicitor
11 issues a challenge to us which I think is as well
12 that we would meet head on. Do you have the letter
13 which was sent to you; a copy of the letter that was
14 sent to you?
15 A. From you?
16 373 Q. Yes?
17 A. Yes, I have, yes.
18 374 Q. Yes?
19 A. Yes .
20 375 Q. I will read the relevant portion of the letter
21 (Exhibit 16):
22
23 "We consider that you are a person..."
24
25 That is addressing your goodself,
26
27 "...who either is or may be in

possession of information concerning
28 the affairs of the Company..."
29
1 That is "Ansbacher",
3 "...and accordingly we hereby require

you to afford us all assistance in
4 connection with our investigation that
you are reasonably able to give..."
5
7 Able to give and I must say, Mr. Turvey, you appear
8 to be doing that to the best of your ability?
9 A. Yes.
10 376 Q.
11
12 "To this end we require you to

attend at our office to provide
13 evidence under oath on relevant
matters and specifically in relation
14 to your dealings on behalf of Mr.
Liam McGonagle and as a Director
15 of Kinsale Yacht Charters Ltd."
16
17 I do not know how your solicitor could draw an
18 inference from that that we are restricted to
19 dealing with Kinsale Yacht Charters or indeed
20 Kinsale Yacht Charters and Mr. Liam McGonagle.
21 I think -- so far as any question I have asked
22 you so far had had a McGonagle connection. I
23 will in fact have a series of questions for
24 you at the end which do not have a McGonagle
25 connection but they are covered by this and of
26 course your disadvantaged you can say, "I will come
27 back another day and deal with that". I have no
28 difficulty with that at all; none at all. However,
29 we will be asking you about relevant matters and
56
1 these relevant matters may not be exclusively
2 related to Mr. McGonagle or Kinsale Yacht Charters.
3 Do you understand, Mr. Turvey?
4 A. Yes, fine.
5 377 Q. Could I say that your attitude is extremely helpful
6 and I am noting that?
7 A. Yes.
8 378 Q. That your attitude is extremely helpful; all right?
9 A. Yes (indicating).
10 379 Q. I will proceed. Beresford Investments Limited:
11 Do you know who owed that at all?
12 A. No, I would assume it was that group of people that
13 I mentioned; some directors of Guinness & Mahon,
14 Des Traynor, may be John Guinness.
15 380 Q. Was Mr. McGonagle involved in it?
16 A. He was I think, yes.
17 381 Q. Yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 382 Q. Yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 383 Q. Yes. You see I think he was in fact myself too?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 384 Q. And I think it may have lasted a little longer
24 than you think?
25 A. Well, it may have but I was never connected with
26 Beresford the way I was connected with the other
27 things we have discussed up to now.
28 385 Q. Yes?
29 A. And therefore I would be a bit vague about it
57
1 because I wasn't involved.
2 386 Q. All right?
3 A. Now, I may have been asked to do something at some
4 stage or to carry a message connected with it but I
5 didn't know any of the details of that thing.
6 387 Q. I see. Because we have documentation which seems to
7 suggest that you had an involvement in it?
8 A. Yes.
9 388 Q. I am not saying it was a deep involvement?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 389 Q. Or anything like that?
12 A. Yes.
13 390 Q. What year again did you say you started in
14 Mr. Finnegan's...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. 1972.
16 391 Q. 1972?
17 A. Yes.
18 392 Q. In 1976 there was a letter to the Chairman of
19 Beresford Investments at 28A. Now, you are not
20 particularly involved in that but I will show it to
21 you to show that it was still operational at that
22 stage; do you understand?
23 A. Yes.
24 393 Q. And I will give you some other information later.
25 It is a facility letter, yes. Page 28A. The
26 details of the facility letter...(INTERJECTION).
27 MS. CUMMINS: 28 or 28A.
28 JUDGE O'LEARY: 128A.
29 MS. MACKEY: Oh, 128.
58
1 JUDGE O'LEARY: 128. Did I say 28?
2 MS. MACKEY: You did.
3 394 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: 128A (Same Handed)
4 (Exhibit 17)?
5 A. That's...(INTERJECTION).
6 395 Q. That is it there now?
7 A. That is it I think; a facility letter.
8 396 Q. The 6th December 1976. Is that the one you have;
9 is it?
10 A. It is, yes.
11 397 Q. All right. The only purpose of me showing you that
12 was that the operation, the Beresford operation,
13 whatever it was, was still of some significance in
14 1976?
15 A. Yes.
16 398 Q. That it was long after you had started?
17 A. It was, yes.
18 399 Q. In the Company?
19 A. Yes.
20 400 Q. Yes. That was not your memory of it?
21 A. Yes, it wasn't. I thought that Beresford's
22 activities had all preceded my coming into it.
23 Now, I mean I would have thought it at the time
24 but I thought it now. At this point in time if
25 you asked the question I would have said it was
26 all finished or done with.
27 401 Q. Yes?
28 A. I now realise it can't have been.
29 402 Q. Yes?
59
1 A. But as I said I was never closely involved with it.
2 403 Q. Yes?
3 A. So, I couldn't be too sure.
4 404 Q. Do you know whether it was a suitably secured
5 situation?
6 A. I wouldn't have thought so but I don't know.
7 405 Q. If you would look at 130 before answering the
8 question again (Same Handed) (Exhibit 18)? I do
9 not want to catch anybody out. That is not the
10 purpose of the exercise. This is obviously an
11 extension of a loan. That is what it is; what we
12 are dealing with here?
13 A. Yes.
14 406 Q. An extension for a period of one year?
15 A. Yes.
16 407 Q. Do you see there:
17
18 "88% suitably secured"?
19
20 A. 88% suitably secured; I do.
21 408 Q. Really my interest in it is whose money was
22 suitably securing it?
23 A. Yes.
24 409 Q. Do you understand what I mean?
25 A. Yes, I do.
26 410 Q. That is really my interest?
27 A. I do.
28 411 Q. I do not care about the rest of it?
29 A. I would be very surprised if it was Liam McGonagle's
60
1 money.
2 412 Q. Yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 413 Q. You see that is why I am interested?
5 A. Yes.
6 414 Q. Because I suspect it might not be?
7 A. Yes. I would be very surprised if it was.
8 415 Q. Yes. However, have you any idea who it was?
9 A. I haven't but there was a group of people involved
10 in that and he was one of a group. There were a
11 lot of names.
12 416 Q. Who was the main player?
13 A. I don't know but I was going to say it could have
14 been Guinness & Mahon themselves but I'm not really
15 sure. It is not the case of I'm not sure; I don't
16 know.
18 A. No.
19 418 Q. I mean was Mr. Finnegan the main player in it?
20 A. I doubt it. He was probably involved in it the way
21 Liam McGonagle was but I would doubt very much he
22 was the main player. I doubt it.
23 419 Q. Yes?
24 A. I always regarded it as closely connected with
26 420 Q. Did you?
27 A. Yes.
28 421 Q. Do you mean by Des Traynor rather than
61
1 A. Yes. Well, I mean Des Traynor and others in
2 Guinness & Mahon as well.
3 422 Q. Like for example?
4 A. The late John Guinness himself.
5 423 Q. Yes?
6 A. Even though he mightn't have partaken in it but
7 I think he may have had some involvement. Now,
8 my difficulty here is that I wasn't closely enough
9 involved with it to know who the people were.
10 424 Q. Yes. We have other information, some of this
11 information is good and some of it is not good but
12 we have information, which would suggest that there
13 may have been a Ken 0'Reilly-Hyland involvement?
14 A. There could have been, yes. There could have been.
15 If Liam McGonagle and John Finnegan were there may
16 easily have been a Ken 0'Reilly-Hyland involvement;
17 easily.
18 425 Q. Because they went very much together; did they?
19 A. They did.
20 426 Q. Yes?
21 A. But I think there were a lot more.
22 427 Q. There were a lot more?
23 A. This wouldn't be a situation where they were prime
24 movers in it.
25 428 Q. You see my interest in it is really whose money was
26 suitably secured?
27 A. Yes, yes, I see that.
28 429 Q. That is my interest in it?
29 A. Well, I would doubt very much if it was
62
1 Liam McGonagle's money.
2 430 Q. I see, I see. You might show Mr. Turvey, so as that
3 in due course when this is over he can pass it on to
4 his solicitor and his solicitor can see that it is
5 relevant, pages 133 & 134 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 19
6 & 20) ?
7 A. Thanks.
8 431 Q. I think it may be useful if you look at Number 134
9 (Exhibit 20) first because that is the outcome of
10 133?
11 A. Yes. I certainly don't remember it but it would
12 seem to indicate that Liam McGonagle was a fairly
13 significant person in it; in the group or whatever.
14 432 Q. Yes, yes. You cannot help us any further in that
15 regard; can you?
16 A. I am just reading the other, the 133, now. Just
17 a moment (Exhibit 19)?
18 433 Q. Yes?
19 A. I have no recollection of this I must say but I
20 think it was probably something that Liam asked
21 me to do and I did.
22 434 Q. Yes. Yes?
23 A. I was certainly never aware and I can't recollect
24 any outcome of that Beresford Investment thing.
25 I don't know whether profits if any went or if
26 it made profits.
27 435 Q. Yes?
28 A. I just don't know.
29 436 Q. Yes. Where were you on the 4th April 1972 in

1 terms of where you were working at that time?
2 A. I had joined Finnegan and Menton.
3 437 Q. I do not mean physically where you were that day?
4 A. Yes. I had just joined Finnegan Menton in 1972. I
5 can't remember what time of the year but 1972. I
6 think it was early in the year.
7 438 Q. Was it?
8 A. Yes.
9 439 Q. Yes, I wonder would you show Mr. Turvey page 136
11 A. Thanks.
12 440 Q. Were you familiar with the establishment by
13 Mr. Finnegan of a discretionary trust?
14 A. I was.
15 441 Q. Yes?
16 A. But only from the time I went in in 1972.
17 442 Q. Yes?
18 A. And not prior to that.
19 443 Q. Yes. You see it appears that it was established
20 on the 4th April 1972 and the details of it are not
21 relevant really. They are of any great concern one
22 way or the other?
23 A. Yes.
24 444 Q. Many of these trusts were established on that date
25 or the dates immediately preceeding it and they
26 could well have been reasons why that was done;
27 Capital Gains reasons and various other reasons?
28 A. The 4th April being the significant date.
29 445 Q. Being the significant date?
64
1 A. On the other hand Capital Gains Tax to my
2 recollection, I am fairly sure of it, didn't
3 come until April 1974.
4 446 Q. I think that is true?
5 A. Yes .
6 447 Q. I think that is true?
7 A. Yes .
8 448 Q. There could however have been exchange control
9 changes around that time as well?
10 A. Yes .
11 449 Q. I think the Cayman situation was in a state of flux
12 I do not know the reason for it?
13 A. But I think we remained in the Sterling area until
14 long after that.
15 450 Q. We did?
16 A. Ireland.
17 451 Q. However, did they?
18 A. Did the Cayman?
19 452 Q. Yes?
20 A. I see, yes.
21 453 Q. Yes, that is the question. The question I am
22 asking is this: Have you any knowledge in this
23 case, or in the other case that you know about,
24 of whether the trusts were in fact established
25 on those dates or whether they were back dated
26 to those dates?
27 A. I wouldn't think they were back dated because when
28 I joined Finnegan Menton in 1972 I was told then,
29 certainly in Liam's case, about the existence of
65
1 a trust in Cayman.
2 454 Q. Yes?
3 A. And I would think that John Finnegan would have set
4 up his trust at the same time as Liam McGonagle did.
5 455 Q. Yes?
6 A. My recollection is that they were there before I
7 became involved. Now, I haven't read that letter
8 (Exhibit 21) (indicating). I was just kind of
9 listening to you. I haven't read that letter fully
10 yet.
11 456 Q. Basically all it says is that it says what is to
12 be done in the event of Mr. Finnegan dying?
13 A. Yes.
14 457 Q. The details of that are not relevant?
15 A. Yes.
16 458 Q. The relevant point is the 4th April 1972?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 459 Q. That is the point I am asking you about really?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 460 Q. You are not able to assist us in that regard?
21 A. No, I am not because I think certainly in Liam
22 McGonagle's case that his trust existed before that.
23 461 Q. Okay?
24 A. And I am nearly sure that John Finnegan's did.
25 462 Q. Fine?
26 A. But I am not as sure as I am about Liam McGonagle's.
27 463 Q. I understand, yes. That is very helpful. Thank
28 you very much. Mr. Turvey, who was Mary O'Reilly
29 in New York?
66
1 A. I never heard of Mary O'Reilly. I have never heard
2 -- I do not know who Mary O'Reilly is.
3 464 Q. I will be asking you about other O'Reillys later on
4 now and where you were working?
5 A. Yes .
6 465 Q. That is another thing?
7 A. Yes .
8 466 Q. However, I am not interested in that for the moment.
9 I do not want you to confuse those unless they are
10 the same people?
11 A. Yes .
12 467 Q. Would you show Mr. Turvey two letters; 138 & 139
13 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 22 & 23)?
14 A. Thank you.
15 468 Q. Apparently you were in favour for three years,
16 Mr. Turvey, but after that you were no longer able?
17 A. Now, I never -- I know now who Mary O'Reilly is.
18 She is either the actual or the imagined relation
19 of Mr. Jackie O'Reilly who was the Chairman Managing
20 Director, sole owner, of O'Reilly Aerlod that I went
21 to work with in 1984.
22 469 Q. Yes?
23 A. Now, how or why?
24 470 Q. She was not his actual wife?
25 A. No, she is not his wife. His wif's name was
26 Patricia, that is right.
27 471 Q. That is correct. Yes?
28 A. And he had a daughter, an adopted daughter, called
29 Mary but she was only a child at that stage. I
67
1 think Mary O'Reilly was think he told me she was a
2 cousin of his but he was the kind of person who
3 invented all kinds of things in his mind and there
4 might not have been any cousin at all for all I
5 know.
6 472 Q. Yes?
7 A. To withdraw funds.
8 473 Q. So, it is connected with O'Reilly Aerlod in some
9 way?
10 A. He was the founder.
11 474 Q. Do you remember what the whole purpose of this was?
12 A. I don't and I want to add that I never withdrew any
13 funds whatever certainly for me.
15 A. Never.
16 476 Q. Yes, yes. Could we move on so to the O'Reilly
17 Aerlod situation?
18 A. Yes.
19 477 Q. As I understand it O'Reilly Aerlod was a company
20 which was owned by Mr. J.K O'Reilly; is that
21 correct?
23 478 Q. I think it had been a subsidiary ultimately
24 originally of CIE or something like that?
25 A. It was. It was originally Aerlod Teoranta.
26 479 Q. Yes?
27 A. And Jackie O'Reilly bought it from CIE.
28 480 Q. Yes?
29 A. Yes.
68
1 481 Q. And he ran it then until when?
2 A. Golly, he ran it until I would say some time
3 about 1988/1989/1990; some time around there.
4 482 Q. Yes?
5 A. And he was bought out by Irish Mainport Holdings
6 Limited in Cork.
7 483 Q. Yes?
8 A. It bought his interest in the Company.
9 484 Q. Yes. I have got a little bit of information that
10 might be of assistance in that regard elsewhere.
11 So, if we will adjourn may be for five minutes;
12 would that be okay with you?
13 A. Certainly, yes.
14 485 Q. Would you like a cup of tea?
15 A. I would love one, yes. Thank you.
16 486 Q. Tea or coffee; whichever?
17 A. Tea please.
18 487 Q. Yes?
19 A. Tea.
20 488 Q. I will not be long more with this.
21 A. Okay.
22 489 Q. This is really the only thing?
23 A. Yes, okay. That is fine. Thank you.
24
25 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
26
27
28
29
69
1 MR. DES TURVEY CONTINUED TO BE EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS
2 AFTER SHORTEN ADJOURNMENT BY JUDGE O'LEARY:
5 A. I just wanted to have a look at the Mary O'Reilly
6 letters again (Exhibit 22 & 23).
7 490 Q. Yes, yes. I do want to emphasise to you,
8 Mr. Turvey, anything we raise here today if you have
9 second thoughts about it or you have additional
10 information feel perfectly free to write to us.
11 You have no difficulty in that regard?
12 A. I will, righto, yes. Thank you.
13 491 Q. We might ask you to put it in affidavit in due
14 course but write to us in the first instance?
15 A. Fine, yes.
16 492 Q. And we will see what the position is?
17 A. Yes.
18 493 Q. The information available to me is that Mr. O'Reilly
19 sold the Company?
20 A. Yes.
21 494 Q. In about 1985 and died in 1988?
22 A. Yes.
23 495 Q. Does that appear right to you?
24 A. Yes. He lived for a couple of years after he sold
25 it which is quite true but that puzzles me about
26 that letter (indicating) because that letter
27 (indicating) then would appear to have been written
28 after he sold the Company. Is that -- what date is
29 on that letter?
70
1 MR. DALY: January 1984 (Exhibit 22).
2 A. 1984. Yes, that is all right.
3 MS. MACKEY: No that would be okay.
4 A. That is okay, yes, yes.
5 4 96 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. Could I make it
6 clear: I am attaching no
7 significance to that letter at all (Exhibit 22)?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 497 Q. I just wanted to bring it to your attention in case
10 you say, "Yes, that is his second wife," or he had a
11 girlfriend outside in New York?
12 A. Yes.
13 498 Q. Something like that?
14 A. Yes.
15 499 Q. However, I really am attaching no significance to
16 it?
17 A. Right, right, yes.
18 500 Q. I would not worry about it?
19 A. Yes.
20 501 Q. It is curious but that is all it is?
21 A. It is.
22 502 Q. It is not going to play any significant part that
23 I can see in it?
24 A. Right, fine.
25 503 Q. He died in 1988 at the age of 58. His widow
26 informed us of that?
27 A. Yes.
28 504 Q. And that he sold it to Mainport Holdings; a Cork
29 company?
71
1 A. That is right.
2 505 Q. When did you come to work there?
3 A. 1984 .
4 506 Q. 1984?
5 A. Yes. Now, that was March.
6 507 Q. Yes?
7 A. The 1st March.
8 508 Q. Was it sold directly to Mainport Holdings or was
9 there an intermediatory stage?
10 A. I think it was sold directly to Mainport Holdings.
11 509 Q. Yes .
12 MS. MACKEY: Just one thing struck me
13 there, Mr. Turvey:
15 MS. MACKEY: When you said you came in
16 March this letter
17 actually, going back to it for a second, was written
18 in January (Exhibit 22)?
19 A. The O'Reilly...(INTERJECTION).
20 MS. MACKEY: The O'Reilly letter as we
21 call it.
22 A. Well, now I will have to check the records but to
23 my knowledge in whatever year I joined it was in
24 late February/early March. I may have signed
25 something with Jackie O'Reilly stating that I was
26 accepting the job or whatever.
27 MS. MACKEY: Right.
28 A. Because I had known him personally.
29 MS. MACKEY: You had known him prior to

1 that.
2 A. I had known him personally.
3 MS. MACKEY: So, it could have been.
4 A. So, I may have signed something for him stating
5 that, "Yes, I will start work on whatever date,"
6 some date in February or March.
7 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
8 A. But the letter in question that we are talking about
9 with the Mary O'Reilly thing.
10 MS. MACKEY: That was written on the
11 12th January 1984. That
12 is the date on it any way.
13 A. It amazes me.
14 MS. MACKEY: Used you undertake any
15 work for Mr. O'Reilly
16 prior to joining his company?
17 A. No, no.
18 MS. MACKEY: You did not at all?
19 A. Never.
20 MS. MACKEY: So...(INTERJECTION).
21 A. I would have to check the records in fact on that.
22 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
23 A. Because I will know from Finnegan Menton records
24 if they are still there mind you; it is a long
25 time ago.
26 MS. MACKEY: Yes?
27 A. When I took up duties with Finnegan Menton.
28 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes, yes. That would be
29 useful.
73
1 A. And when I ceased working with Finnegan Menton.
2 510 Q. Yes. The takeover of the business was: His
3 company was not bought out; is that not correct?
4 A. Yes, that is right.
5 511 Q. It is just that the business was transferred?
6 A. They bought the business and they formed a new
7 company called O'Reilly Aerlod Ireland Limited
8 I think.
9 512 Q. Yes. Who were the directors of that? First of all
10 were you an Officer of the Company?
11 A. I am trying to think of when I was. When I went
12 in in 1984 I was made Secretary of the Company.
13 513 Q. Yes?
14 A. When the deal was done and it was sold to Irish
15 Mainport Holdings I would have been Secretary only
16 and when Irish Mainport Holdings took over I think
17 I probably resigned as secretary or else I just
18 remained secretary.
19 514 Q. I see?
20 A. I wasn't a director to my knowledge at that stage.
21 515 Q. I see. Could you assist me in this regard: What
22 or who was Lebac Limited?
23 A. Lebac Limited was a company that was formed at
24 a later stage. What happened subsequently was:
25 The owners -- Jackie O'Reilly left the Company.
26 A man called Dermot Carpendale became Chairman
27 and Managing Director, who had been working with
28 the Company for years, and he and we, "we" being
29 two or three senior people in O'Reilly Aerlod,
74
1 bought the Company back from Irish Mainport
2 Holdings.
3 516 Q. When was that?
4 A. Have you the date that Irish Mainport Holdings first
5 bought the Company? Is that...(INTERJECTION)?
6 517 Q. What I have here is I have a return for the 31
7 December 1988 in respect of O'Reilly Aerlod Ireland
8 Limited?
9 A. Yes .
10 518 Q. You are the secretary and the shareholders at
11 the time of the 1987 Annual General Meeting included
12 Lebac; Oliver Hennessy, William Oliver Hennessy;
13 Daniel Anthony Kernan; Finbar John McGrath?
14 A. They were the shareholders; is that it?
15 519 Q. Yes?
16 A. Yes. Well, they were all employees of the Company
17 as I was and Lebac as I recollect it -- the way
18 the thing was set-up finally was that Lebac held
19 the shares and we the six people, senior executives
20 in the Company, owned the shares in Lebac.
21 520 Q. I see?
22 A. That was my recollection of it.
23 521 Q. I see, I see?
24 A. My recollection was that the Hennessy, Cullinane
25 Carpendale, Cohen, Turvey; five and may be some one
26 else, six.
27 522 Q. Egan?
28 A. No, that would be later.
29 523 Q. Later?
75
1 A. Later I think.
2 524 Q. I see?
3 A. Yes. Egan and McGrath would have come later.
4 525 Q. I see?
5 A. But I think there were 100 shares or something in
6 Lebac and between us we owned them and Lebac in turn
7 owned the share capital of O'Reilly Aerlod.
8 526 Q. All right. When did that transaction take place
9 do you think?
10 A. I went there in 1984. Say about 1987 it was sold or
11 1986 maybe it was sold to Irish Mainport Holdings
12 and about a year later it was bought back; 1987. I
13 would say around about 1987.
14 527 Q. Around about 1987. You might wonder why
15 I am concerned about this Company at all really
16 which looks rather strange in some ways but
17 I wonder would you show Mr. Turvey two documents;
18 number 149 & 150 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 24). This
19 is at a later time. When did O'Reilly Aerlod
20 Ireland Limited cease business?
21 A. Some time after 1994.
22 528 Q. 1994?
23 A. Some time after that.
24 529 Q. In 1991 a lodgement was made to an "Ansbacher"
25 account in respect of a cheque which had been made
26 out to O'Reilly Aerlod. It is not O'Reilly Aerlod
27 Ireland Limited now, just O'Reilly Aerlod. You
28 will see the cheque there (Exhibit 24) (indicating)?
29 A. Yes .
1 530 Q. The problem is that O'Reilly Aerlod were gone out
2 of business and had ceased to exist at that stage
3 in 1991?
4 A. That is true.
5 531 Q. And it came from Boardman (Air Services) Ltd?
6 A. I see that. Now, I have no knowledge of any
7 connection whatever between O'Reilly Aerlod,
8 anybody in O'Reilly Aerlod (Ireland) Limited,
9 and "Ansbacher" or monies coming from it.
10 532 Q. Yes?
11 A. This is a total surprise to me. I don't know who.
12 533 Q. Had you any familiarity, Mr. Turvey, with what
13 happened at the wind-up of O'Reilly Aerlod?
14 A. The wind-up: I left the Company.
15 534 Q. No, no. I am talking about O'Reilly Aerlod now?
16 A. Oh,O'Reilly Aerlod.
17 535 Q. I am not talking about O'Reilly Aerlod (Ireland)
18 Limited?
19 A. Yes, yes, sorry, sorry. I haven't, no. I don't
20 remember -- I don't recollect what happened at the
21 wind-up. It was wound-up because Irish Mainport
22 Holdings Limited didn't want to take it over.
24 A. Any potential liabilities that O'Reilly Aerlod might
25 have had.
26 537 Q. Were you familiar with the person who actually
27 carried out we will say the business of tidying
28 up Mr. O'Reilly's affairs when he died?
29 A. No.
1 538 Q. What?
2 A. I don't even know who tidied them up.
3 539 Q. You do not know who tidied them up?
4 A. No.
5 540 Q. Would the name Michael 0'Flaherty mean anything
6 to you? He was an AIB Operative?
7 A. No.
8 541 Q. It means nothing to you?
9 A. Our bankers were AIB at some stage; no, maybe it was
10 at a later stage but I don't remember a Michael
11 0'Flaherty.
12 542 Q. All right. Am I right in saying that Boardman
13 (Air Services) Ltd were a company that the O'Reilly
14 Aerlod companies, one or the other, would have
15 done business with?
16 A. Yes, yes. Boardman is the name.
17 543 Q. Boardman?
18 A. Yes.
19 544 Q. And they would have been paying, making payments to,
20 O'Reilly Aerlod from time to time?
21 A. They would have been, yes, yes.
22 545 Q. Right. Is it not rather strange that in 1991 a
23 payment is made to O'Reilly Aerlod of £6,284.50
24 and it ends up in "Ansbacher"?
25 A. It is but I never knew there was a connection with
26 "Ansbacher" but it wouldn't surprise me if in the
27 Jackie O'Reilly days -- no, it is 1991 you say.
28 546 Q. No, this is...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. Yes.
78
1 547 Q. Mr. O'Reilly...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Is gone. Is dead.
3 548 Q. He can be blamed for a lot of things?
4 A. Yes .
5 549 Q. However, I think he was three years dead at this
6 stage?
7 A. Yes, yes. You are right, yes. It does surprise me,
8 Sir, yes.
9 550 Q. He was three years dead and considerably more than
10 that out of the Company?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 551 Q. So, I do not think it is likely that it was his
13 money?
14 A. Yes, that is quite true. I had forgotten that.
15 I don't know is the answer to why it would end up in
16 an "Ansbacher" account. I have no idea.
17 552 Q. Or any of the other people that you were involved
18 with: Do you think they had "Ansbacher" accounts?
19 A. I would not have thought so, there is only one who
20 could have and I don't like saying it because I
21 don't want to be pointing a finger but there was
22 only one who would have had any money of that lot.
23 Of those names I gave you none of them had any
24 money.
25 553 Q. I know. I understand?
26 A. Disposable money like that except one and that was
27 a man called Dermot Carpendale. So, if anybody had
28 he is the only one who could have had it in my view.
29 554 Q. I understand. During the course of the time that
79
1 you were dealing with Mr. McGonagle and Mr. Finnegan
2 and this is getting away from the O'Reilly situation
3 now?
4 A. Yes .
5 555 Q. During that period of time did they ever encourage
6 you to establish a company or an account yourself in
7 "Ansbacher"?
8 A. An account myself in "Ansbacher"?
9 556 Q. Did you have an account yourself in "Ansbacher"?
10 A. No, no, no.
11 557 Q. Did they pay you is any way in respect of that?
12 A. No, no, no.
13 558 Q. You see your evidence in extremely helpful and
14 thank you very much indeed for it. I am almost
15 coming to the conclusion with regard to the evidence
16 but the one thing which is a bit strange now viewing
17 it as an outsider?
18 A. Yes .
19 559 Q. Is that Mr. McGonagle would have depended on you
20 so much down through the years without ever making
21 a payment to you?
22 A. Yes. Well, he never made a payment to me but I went
23 away on holidays with him on the boat.
24 560 Q. Yes, I know?
25 A. And he would pay all the expenses of the boat,
26 you know?
27 561 Q. I do. Yes?
28 A. All the food and everything.
29 562 Q. Yes?
1 A. We sailed all over the place in later years and in
2 addition, I suppose there is no point in not saying
3 it here, apart from the small bequest in his Will he
4 made a provision for me from the trust in question.
5 563 Q. Yes?
6 A. It amounts to quite a bit of money.
7 564 Q. Yes. So, in other words...
8 A. I'll probably never see it but, you know, that is
9 the way it is, you know?
10 565 Q. Yes. In what way?
11 A. Well, you see he always thought he would die young.
12 He used to say he would die before he was 40 or he
13 would die before he was 50 because of his family
14 history etc., and he always assumed that I would
15 outlive him and that certainly my wife, who was
16 14 years younger than me, would outlive him.
17 566 Q. Yes?
18 A. So, he left a substantial slice of the funds that
19 were in this trust to me and my wife.
20 567 Q. Do you mind me asking was that done while it was in
21 "Ansbacher" or was it done later?
22 A. It was done earlier. It was done -- when you say
23 "Ansbacher" I think of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
24 first, yes.
25 568 Q. Use the same word?
26 A. The same, right.
27 569 Q. Use the same word?
28 A. I don't know. I started with him 1972. It was
29 probably done some time in the late 1970's.

1 570 Q. Yes?
2 A. May be early 1980's.
3 571 Q. Yes?
4 A. He told me he was making provision for me.
5 572 Q. Have you documentary evidence of that?
6 A. I had it but I no longer have it. I had copies
7 of the trust and a copy of a letter of wishes.
8 573 Q. Yes?
9 A. And both of those I gave back to him or to his
10 solicitors a long time ago now.
11 574 Q. Yes?
12 A. But I know that I was included in that for 15%,
13 me and my wife for 15% between us, of the funds
14 in the trust.
15 575 Q. Yes, presumably it is still there; is it?
16 A. Yes, I assume it is. I ended up virtually
17 pensionless and that I regarded as my pension or
18 provision for my later days.
20 A. It is still there. I have no doubt it is still
21 there because nothing has been, nothing on that
22 trust has been, touched since his death.
23 MS. MACKEY: You mean that you were
24 made a beneficiary of the
25 trust? Is that essentially what is meant?
26 A. Well, it is not a beneficiary in the sense. The
27 way these trusts -- I am not an expert on trust Law
28 MS. MACKEY: Right.
29 A. But the Trust says the beneficiaries are the Queen
82
1 and the Red Cross and the whatever and whatever; you
2 know the way these trusts are worded?
3 577 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: I do indeed. Yes?
4 A. And then there was a Letter of Wishes rather like
5 that letter which you have produced there
6 (indicating) (Exhibit 21).
7 578 Q. Yes?
8 A. The John Finnegan one.
9 579 Q. Yes?
10 A. Stating that, "In the event of my death I wish the
11 proceeds to be distributed as follows".
12 580 Q. Yes?
13 A. And it was largely to his widow and then in fact --
14 now, that I think of it -- or did he? No, he didn't
15 say his wife, no, no. It was largely to his widow.
16 He had lived with his present wife for some 20 years
17 before they finally got married.
18 581 Q. Yes?
19 A. And he had left the major portion of it to her and
20 15% to me and my wife by the wording of this letter
21 of wishes (Exhibit 21).
22 582 Q. I mean may be there is nothing there?
23 A. Well, there is.
24 583 Q. There is?
25 A. I know there is, yes.
26 584 Q. You know there is?
27 A. There certainly is.
28 585 Q. Yes, I see. All right.
29 A. But there may be nothing there at the end of all of
83
1 this if, you know, there are Revenue liabilities as
2 a result of that trust.
3 586 Q. That is a matter...
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 587 Q. Obviously I do not know whether there are or not?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 588 Q. There might not be you see?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 589 Q. There might not be?
13 A. Yes.
14 590 Q. I do not know?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. MACKEY: Do you know who is looking
17 after that now,
18 Mr. Turvey?
19 A. It's Credit Suisse in Guernsey.
20 MS. MACKEY: Credit Suisse in fact.
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. MACKEY: I see.
23 591 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Have you discussed this
24 with the widow?
25 A. I never mentioned it to the widow because he had
26 never mentioned to either of his wives. I never
27 mentioned it to the widow until about three months
28 ago roughly when she started asking questions as a
29 result of what she had seen in the papers and the
84
1 fact that she had been asked to make a statement
2 to your predecessor here.
3 592 Q. Yes?
4 A. To Justice Costello.
5 593 Q. Yes?
6 A. What she read in the papers -- obviously there
7 was money abroad and she was aware of that and she
8 for a long time never mentioned it to me and we are
9 very close friends and eventually it cropped up and
10 I told her about it but it's within the last couple
11 of months, three/four months, may be, you know?
12 Up to that she didn't know, she had no idea.
13 594 Q. I see, yes. Yes?
14 A. And I simply said nothing because Liam had never
15 said anything, you know?
16 595 Q. Absolutely, yes. Of course I understand that.
17 That is grand. I have no further questions for you,
18 Mr. Turvey. Have you any questions?
19 MS. MACKEY: I will just may be ask a
20 couple of questions about
21 Mr. Waldron.
22 JUDGE O'LEARY: I will leave for that
23 purpose then.
24 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
25 JUDGE O'LEARY: Other than that you have
26 no other questions?
27 MS. MACKEY: No, I have no other
28 questions.
29 596 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: All right. What I will

1 do, Mr. Turvey, is I will
2 withdraw because I do not want to be involved in
3 any questions relating to Dr. Waldron?
4 A. Right.
5 597 Q. And that aspect of the matter will be dealt with by
6 Ms. Mackey; do you understand?
7 A. Fine, yes.
8 598 Q. You may know that there are actually four Inspectors
9 but we divide up the work.
10 A. I see.
11 599 Q. Everybody cannot do everything?
12 A. I know. I can well imagine.
13 600 Q. You will appreciate that?
14 A. Yes .
15 601 Q. And that is it I think. So, I will just leave my
16 stuff here and I will come back later for it.
17 MS. MACKEY: It will only take I would
18 say another three minutes,
19 Mr. Turvey?
20 A. Righto, Ms. Mackey.
21 MS. MACKEY: And then we will be
22 finished.
23 A. Yes, thank you.
24 JUDGE O'LEARY: Thank you very much.
25 Thank you.
26 A. Thanks.
27 JUDGE O'LEARY: Thank you very much.

9P
zo
END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. TURVEY BY JUDGE O'LEARY:
29
1 MR. DES TURVEY WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY
2 MS. MACKEY:
5 602 Q. MS. MACKEY: It is really just a couple
6 of documents we have here
7 which refer to a connection between Mr. McGonagle
8 and Mr. Turvey in connection with the Cayman trust?
9 A. Yes
10 603 Q. And I just wanted you to may be clarify what that
11 was about so that I would be quite clear. I think,
12 Ms. Cummins it is page 126. I will just make sure
13 now. Yes, it is page 126 & 127. 126 is a very bad
14 photocopy but we will try to decipher it (Same
15 Handed) (Exhibit 25)?
16 A. I will do the best I can. Thank you.
17 604 Q. May be I will read it out insofar as I can. It
18 is an extremely bad photocopy?
19 A. Yes.
20 605 Q. However, it starts, its headed, as you can see:
21
22 "Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited"?
23
24 A. I do, yes.
25 606 Q. It is coming from there and it is signed John Furze?
26 A. Yes.
27 607 Q. Who you have mentioned already?
28 A. Yes.
29 608 Q. It is dated the 1st November 1977 and it is
87
1 addressed to Mr. McGonagle?
2 A. Yes.
3 609 Q. And then there is the reference:
5 "BRITISH ISLES INVESTMENTS LIMITED"?
7 A. Yes.
610 Q. He says:
10 "Dear Liam, on instructions from

Dr. Waldron we placed a sale order
11 on the holding of 1250 Bidger."
12
13 A. Bridger Petroleum Shares I think that is.
14 611 Q. Great, excellent?
15 A. And as you will see now.
16 612 Q.
17
18 "As you will see from the enclosed

copy contract notes we were successful
19 in disposing of..."
20
21 All but 50 of these shares I think,
22
23 "...all but 50 of these shares at the

agreed limit price of Canadian dollars,
24 11.50 per share."
25
26 Whatever it is.
27
28 "We have placed a purchase order to buy

5,000 of Voyager Petroleum..."
29
88
1
2 ...(INTERJECTION).
3 A. Sorry, the first word wasn't Voyager. It was
4 Bridger.
5 613 Q. Bridger?
6 A. Yes, .
7 614 Q. I thought it looked a bit different?
8 A. Yes, yes, that is right.
9 615 Q. And then we come to the Voyager?
10 A. Yes .
11 616 Q.
12
13 "We have placed a purchase order to buy

5,000 of Voyager Petroleum at a limited
14 price of ten Canadian Dollars per
share. Today, these shares were quoted
15 at a price of 10 1/8 - 10 1/4..."
16
17 Is that it?
18 A. That is right.
19 617 Q.
20
21 "As soon as we have been able to fulfil

all or any part of this order I will
22 let you know."
23
24 Now, it is the next bit that is the relevant bit
25 really:
26
27 "In accordance with instructions from

Dr. Waldron today we are arranging to
28 sell the Sterling which we hold in
Cayman for your account and will
29 convert the proceeds to Dollars.
I will let you have full details of
1 this contract once it has been executed
and will also hold the Dollars here so
2 that we can utilise them in the
purchase of Voyager Petroleum Shares."
3
5 And then it is signed by John Furze. Really what
6 I am interested in is the fact that this is headed
7 British Isles Investments, which you have explained
8 to us is Mr. McGonagle's trust or the Company under
9 it?
10 A. Yes .
11 618 Q. However, there Dr. Waldron appears to be giving
12 instructions to Cayman in relation to it?
13 A. Yes. I vaguely remember this all right. I think
14 he was involved himself in a venture. He was
15 involved in several ventures over the years.
16 619 Q. Yes?
17 A. That he drew friends of his here into it and got
18 them to invest in it.
19 620 Q. Yes, right?
20 A. And this was a case I think where he obviously got
21 Liam at some earlier stage to purchase these Bridger
22 Petroleum shares.
23 621 Q. Yes?
24 A. That is what I would think reading this (Exhibit 25)
25 (indicating).
26 622 Q. Yes, yes?
27 A. Now he is now selling them.
28 623 Q. Yes?
29 A. And.
1 624 Q. You see:

Cayman for your account..."
5
7 A. But that is for Liam's account.
8 625 Q. Yes, however, Mr. Turvey, Dr. Waldron appears to be
9 giving instructions as to what is to be done with
10 Liam's account; is that not what it seems?
11 A. Yes, but I think Liam may have told him to do that.
12

Cayman..."
15
16
17 626 Q. Is Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
18 A. Is Guinness Mahon Cayman.
19 627 Q. Yes?
20 A. So, Oliver Waldron obviously told them to do this
21 and I assume Liam McGonagle told them it was all
22 right for him to do so.
23 628 Q. Yes. It is just unusual?
24 A. It is but...
25 629 Q. A third party would be giving instructions?
26 A. Yes, but I think...(INTERJECTION).
27 630 Q. To one's banker if you like about what to do about
28 one's own account?
29 A. Yes, but I think you will find if the file were
91
1 complete I think you will find that Liam McGonagle
2 had given his consent to this.
3 631 Q. In fact I only have one other document but it
4 may help although it seems to be in relation
5 to something entirely different?
6 A. Is that the next one you have given me?
7 632 Q. The next one?
8 A. Yes.
9 633 Q. Yes. It is a later document (Exhibit 26)?
10 A. 4th December.
11 634 Q. And it is from Dr. Waldron to Mr. Collery in
13 A. Yes.
14 635 Q. Do you know Mr. Collery?
15 A. I did, yes.
16
17 "I have been instructed by Mr. Desmond

Turvey to forward the enclosed cheque
18 for £1,000 to you for the joint account
of Liam McGonagle and Dr. Oliver
19 Waldron."
20
21 636 Q. Is the reference there to a joint account?
22 A. Yes. Well, that that may answer the first one all
23 right.
24 637 Q. Yes?
25 A. That they may have opened a joint account between
26 them for this venture.
27 638 Q. However, you do not know; do you?
28 A. I don't.
29 639 Q. Well?
92
1 A. What I recollect is that Ollie Waldron went into an
2 oil venture in Texas or somewhere that was going to
3 extract oil from shale.
4 640 Q. Yes?
5 A. Shale being some kind of earth.
6 641 Q. Yes?
7 A. A mixture of earth and whatever, you know?
8 642 Q. Yes?
9 A. It was a more expensive way of extracting oil and
10 he was looking for people to put money into it.
11 643 Q. Yes?
12 A. And what Liam McGonagle may have done is taken
13 X dollars or pounds or whatever out of his account
14 and put it into a joint account with Oliver Waldron.
15 644 Q. Yes?
16 A. Rather than giving it to Oliver Waldron.
18 A. Because he may not have trusted him entirely.
19 646 Q. Yes?
20 A. Put it in a joint account with him to be used for
21 the purpose.
22 647 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. This is conjecture.
24 648 Q. I know?
25 A. Yes.
26 649 Q. And I do not want you to conjecture really?
27 A. Yes.
28 650 Q. You are very good to be trying to help me out
29 unless you actually know?
93
1 A. I don't.
2 651 Q. I am not really concerned?
3 A. Yes.
4 652 Q. The one thing I wanted to know is were you aware of
5 any connection between Dr. Waldron and British Isles
6 Investments and the Cayman trust?
7 A. No, and there was no official connection. I have no
8 doubt whatever about that.
9 653 Q. Yes?
10 A. Now, what would be appear to me there is that
11 Liam got British Isles Investments -- got a
12 special account set up there.
13 654 Q. Yes?
14 A. With he and Ollie Waldron jointly involved and the
15 money went into that.
16 655 Q. Yes?
17 A. But he certainly didn't have any ownership or equity
18 or any connection whatever with British Isles
19 itself.
20 656 Q. Did you do any work on behalf of Dr. Waldron?
21 A. No.
23 A. No, no, no.
24 658 Q. Well, that is fine. I will not ask you any more
25 questions about that then. Thank you very much,
26 Mr. Turvey?
27 A. Not at all. Thank you.
28 659 Q. We are finished?
29 A. Right. Thank you.
94
1 660 Q. And we have kept you a long time but thank you?
2 A. Sorry, I have got this document here still
3 (indicating) (Exhibit 27).
4 661 Q. We will get you copies?
5 A. Yes.
6 662 Q. The only other thing that we should say before we
7 finish is that a transcript will in due course be
8 drawn up from the Stenographer's notes?
9 A. I see, yes.
10 663 Q. A detailed contemporaneous taking down of the thing?
11 A. Fine.
12 664 Q. And we will ask you to come in and sign it but
13 Ms. Cummins will be in touch with Mr. Daly about
14 that whenever that is ready?
15 A. When it happens, yes. That is fine.
16 665 Q. And, you know, at your convenience then if you would
17 sign it; read it of course and sign it?
18 A. Yes.
19 666 Q. If you want a copy of it we unfortunately cannot
20 give you a present of it?
21 A. Okay.
22 667 Q. It has to be bought from the Stenographer; at what
23 cost?
24 MS. CUMMINS: £60.
25 MS. MACKEY: For £60 I am afraid?
26 A. Yes.
27 668 Q. However, we will certainly allow you to read it
28 without having to purchase it?
29 A. Yes, that is fine.
95
1 669 Q. That will be no problem?
2 A. Right.
3 670 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Turvey?
4 A. Righto. Thank you.
5 671 Q. Thanks, Mr. Daly.
6 MR. DALY: Thank you.
7 MS. MACKEY: Ms. Cummins will sort out
8 those matters. Thank you.
10 THE EXAMINATION THEN CONCLUDED.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
96
J OWix)^-.
KENNEDY MCGONAGLE BALLAGH
INCORPORATING BELL BRANIGAN O'DONNELL & O'BRIEN
S O L I C I T O R S
20 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD DUBLIN 4
TEL 660 9799 FAX 660 9434
1 | « 0 ! 1 1 EMAIL: info@kmb.ie
vvvvw.kmb.ie
DX 75
Office of the Inspectors Appointed by Order Your ref: C/M07/NSPM

Of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd Ourref: MO'S/DF
3rd
rd
Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin
15 November 2001
Re: Liam McGonagle deceased
Dear Inspectors,
Thank you for the opportunity to influence your preliminary conclusions concerning
Mr. Liam McGonagle deceased.
Apart from your unhappy use of the word "client" in your preliminary conclusion our
client, given her husband's untimely death, is not in a position to refute your
conclusion but has a number of requests to make.
We suggest that the first paragraph reads :-
"Mr. Liam McGonagle was a well known Solicitor practising as one of the
Partners in a Dublin legal firm. He was also involved with others in property
investment."
The rest of the paragraph which seems superfluous should be deleted. It is not correct
to say that he was a property developer in his own right but while he did, to this
writer's knowledge, a single property development, it was in conjunction with others.
On the other hand, it is correct to say that he was involved in property investment,
having a number of property investments generally with others. There is a clear
distinction between a property developer and a property investor.
Third parties reading your report might conclude that Camille Investments Limited
was a foreign registered company. In fact it was not, it was registered in Ireland as an
investment company. We therefore suggest adding the words "an Irish registered
company" after the word "was" on the first line of paragraph 4.
MIUIAI-.I. J. O'SIIKA R(*ihR I'. ISAI.lAGII IKKI-NCI- I.. DIXON KI A'IN C. A il KRV GORDON 1.1 IXil.
ASSISTANTS: TIONA ITNRY AGATHA I?. lAYIO .R
CONSULTANTS: I.Al RTN . CT: I'. BRANIGAN MARTINA 1.. (MO i RMAN
COMMISSIONERS TOR OAII IS NOIARITS . I'l HII.C
*.„.* Member of the Association of Independent European Lawyers.
The last line of thefifth paragraph states that British Isles Trust was "a trust whose
beneficial owner was Mr. McGonagle". Surely it would be more correct to say that it
is "a trust associated with Mr. McGonagle." We do not consider that there is
evidence before you to say that he was the sole beneficial owner of this trust. Any
number of people may have had an interest in the ownership of this trust, such as, his
first wife, the late Evelyn McGonagle.
You also refer to the late Mr. McGonagle having an involvement with Kinsale Yacht
Charters Limited and Beresford Investments Limited. While we cannot say with
certainty, in relation to Kinsale Yacht Charters Limited, we are aware that Beresford
Investments Limited was an Irish company and that Mr. McGonagle's involvement
was with others. We therefore suggest adding the word "(either on his own or with
others)" after the word "involvement" on thefirst line of this paragraph.
The term "client" has several meanings but your use of this term in your conclusion
does not seem correct. In the context of a relationship between a party and
professional person where that person is using the services of the professional person
the term "client" is understood. It, however, can also mean customer. There is no
evidence to suggest any professional advice in this case and the use of the word
"customer" seems to us a more appropriate term. The use of the term "client" in the
language of the High Court Orders does not in our view justify your continued use of
that term in your conclusion. Indeed there is no evidence that the deceased had any
direct relationship with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust and the evidence available
suggests that the relationship was in fact with Guinness Mahon in Dublin.
Yours faithfully,
Appendix XV (77) Mr Sean McKeon
Sean McKeon.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Sean McKeon dated 16 May 2000.
b) Unsworn statement of Mr Sean McKeon dated 11 May 2000.
c) Letter of 7 January 1994 - Sean McKeon to IIB.
d) Letter of 17 June 1993 — Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited

to IIB.
Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Sean McKeon.
a) Letter of 23 January 2002 - LK Shields Solicitors to the Inspectors.

Appendix XV (77) (l)(a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. SEAN McKEON
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 16TH MAY 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. SEAN McKEON
Represented by: MR. LAWRENCE SHIELDS
LK SHIELDS
42 UPPER MOUNT STREET
DUBLIN 2
INDEX
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MR. S. McKEON MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 6 - 33
MS. MACKEY 34 - 38
MR. ROWAN 39 - 45
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 46 - 48

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 16TH MAY 2000:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Good morning Mr. McKeon.
5 MR. McKEON: Morning.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is Declan Costello
7 and on my right is
8 Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan. As you know
9 we have been appointed Inspectors.
10 MR. McKEON: Yes.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: By The High Court.
12 MR. McKEON: Yes.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I explain to witnesses
14 that this is not a Court.
15 It is not a Tribunal. It is an interview.
16 MR. McKEON: Yes.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We are going to ask you
18 questions.
19 MR. McKEON: Fine.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: In accordance with the
21 requirement that has been
22 imposed on us by the Court.
23 MR. McKEON: Yes.
24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If in the course of the
25 interview you would like
26 to consult your solicitor at any time please tell us
27 so.
28 MR. McKEON: Yes, right.
29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And we will stop asking
4
1 you the questions.
2 MR. McKEON: Yes.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Similarly, your solicitor
4 can at any time, if he
5 wishes to, ask us to stop for a while if he wants to
6 consult with you.
7 MR. McKEON: Yes.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You are both free to
9 consult during the course
10 of the interview.
11 MR. McKEON: Thank you very much
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: This interview Mr. McKeon
13 will be held under oath.
14 You are asked to give your evidence under oath and I
15 will ask Ms. Mackey to administer the oath to you.
16 MR. McKEON: Fine.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. SEAN McKEON, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS
2 FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McKeon, we obtained a
5 statement from you with
6 your solicitor's letter of the 11th May. Perhaps,
7 if you have it before you there (Exhibit 1)?
8 A. Yes, I have it, yes.
9 2 Q. We might go through it?
10 A. Yes.
11 3 Q. And I might ask you some questions on it?
12 A. Yes.
13 4 Q. You refer in the second paragraph to your former
14 business partner Mr. Kennedy. When did the
15 partnership cease, do you remember?
16 A. The partnership ceased in 19 -- well, we had a
17 de-merger it started in 1996 and probably went on
18 for...(INTERJECTION).
19 5 Q. 1996?
20 A. Yes.
21 6 Q. Yes?
22 A. And went on for probably a couple of years by the
23 time it was all finished.
24 7 Q. Yes?
25 A. Wound up.
26 8 Q. Yes. The main company with which you were both
27 involved was Sheelin Homes Limited?
28 A. Yes.
29 9 Q. You say in your statement that you recall a
6
1 conversation in the early 1980's?
2 A. Yes.
3 10 Q. Between John Kennedy and Mr. Maurice 0'Kelly and
4 yourself?
5 A. Yes.
6 11 Q. Had you had dealings with Guinness & Mahon over the
7 years?
8 A. No.
9 12 Q. Had you met Mr. Maurice O'Kelly before?
10 A. Yes. I would have met Mr. Maurice O'Kelly with
11 John Kennedy because he lived -- Maurice O'Kelly was
12 a near neighbour of John Kennedy's.
13 13 Q. Yes?
14 A. And I would have met him, you know, over the years
15 but only socially.
16 14 Q. Socially?
17 A. Yes, and maybe he was a very good golfer and
18 occasionally he would maybe invite us out for a game
19 of golf.
20 15 Q. Yes?
21 A. But socially.
22 16 Q. You did not have any professional dealing with him
23 until this conversation that you are talking about?
24 A. No.
25 17 Q. Did any of your companies, did Sheelin Homes
26 Limited, have any professional relationship with
28 A. No.
29 18 Q. Do you know had Mr. Kennedy before this?
7
1 A. I wouldn't have known his personal affairs.
2 19 Q. You did not know?
3 A. No.
4 20 Q. He never referred it to you, the fact to you?
5 A. Absolutely never did.
6 21 Q. Never did?
7 A. We never had any -- in the early 1980's, just let me
8 think for a second? We actually bought a site. I
9 just recall now that we bought a site from
10 Guinness & Mahon. One of the sites we developed
11 was actually purchased from Guinness & Mahon.
12 22 Q. However, you...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. I just recall that.
14 23 Q. However, you...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. I only recall that now just when you asked the
16 question.
17 24 Q. However, you never had any business?
18 A. No.
19 25 Q. You yourself?
20 A. No, no.
21 2 6 Q. Or your company?
22 A. No.
23 27 Q. As far as you know Mr. Kennedy had not any?
24 A. No, no. Correct.
25 28 Q. Relationship, business relationship, with them?
26 A. No.
27 29 Q. Could you just tell me about this conversation that
28 came about in the early 1980's? Was it in
29 Mr. O'Kelly's office in Guinness & Mahon, do you
8
1 remember?
2 A. No, I have been trying to memorise as to where the
3 conversation took place and to the best of my
4 knowledge it took place having a cup of coffee
5 somewhere. Just the three of us having met, and
6 having a cup of coffee and in the course of the
7 conversation this was mentioned.
8 30 Q. Yes?
9 A. That is it. It wasn't any formal meeting that took
10 place.
11 31 Q. Yes?
12 A. This was just an informal kind of conversation which
13 we were having when this arose.
14 32 Q. Yes?
15 A. That is the best of my knowledge.
16 33 Q. Yes. You say in the third paragraph that
17 Mr. 0'Kelly informed you that the investment would
18 be set up in the form of a trust. Was this in the
19 first conversation or was this later, when you
20 decided to take the matter a bit further?
21 A. My recollection would be that it was; it may have
22 been discussed at the first conversation.
23 34 Q. Yes?
24 A. I honestly cannot recall.
25 35 Q. Yes?
26 A. If it was the first conversation but it was really
27 -- there was a mechanism for putting, you know,
28 money away for a rainy day.
29 36 Q. Yes?
1 A. That was really, you know...(INTERJECTION).
2 37 Q. Yes?
4 38 Q. Was the tax aspect of this referred to at all?
5 Would you have to pay tax on the money that you put
6 away?
7 A. No. There may have been some mention about that it
8 was money that you could put away and, you know, it
9 may or it may not be returned to the Revenue. I
10 just honestly can't fully recall.
11 39 Q. Yes. In any event it was some time before you
12 took the matter further and decided to approach
13 Mr. O'Kelly formally about the matter?
14 A. Yes, because I am sure there were some subsequent
15 conversations and as that another conversations
16 would have taken place.
17 40 Q. Yes?
18 A. It was explained that effectively you were giving
19 control of your money to somebody else and if they
20 ran away with it, well that was hard luck. So, I
21 suppose that does take a little bit of time to think
22 about.
1—1
23 Q. Yes?
24 A. And secondly we were a small team in Sheelin and we
25 were very much up to our tonsils in the everyday
26 wor k.
27 42 Q. Yes?
28 A. So, this was something that was mentioned. We would
29 have forgotten about it and it was raised again.
10
1 43 Q. Yes?
2 A. That is really the way it was.
3 44 Q. Yes. I take it that you discussed this with your
4 partner Mr. Kennedy?
5 A. Yes.
6 45 Q. Because both of you set up trusts, did you not?
7 A. Yes, indeed.
8 4 6 Q. You both would have -- it was not independently?
9 A. No.
10 47 Q. You both decided to do this?
11 A. As with most decisions we would have taken around
12 that time it would have been taken jointly.
13 48 Q. Yes?
14 A. And we would have taken them together and agreed to
15 do things.
16 49 Q. Did you go then to Guinness & Mahon's office?
17 A. Yes. My recollection would be that we went to
18 Guinness & Mahon's office.
19 50 Q. Yes?
20 A. And we met Mr. Des Traynor, the late
21 Mr. Des Traynor.
22 51 Q. Yes. Was that the first time you had met him?
23 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge, yes.
24 52 Q. Did he explain in any more detail then what was
25 involved?
26 A. I honestly do not recall but I would surprised if he
27 wouldn't have gone through the same, you know --
28 telling us similar to what Mr. O'Kelly would have
29 mentioned to us, and I would say in more detail.
11
1 53 Q. Yes?
2 A. And at that meeting I think this person's name,
3 Mr. Furze, was probably referred to. I mean it was
4 just an unusual name and that is how I would have
5 remembered it.
6 54 Q. Had you come across the concept of a discretionary
7 trust before?
8 A. No.
9 55 Q. Was this explained to you then?
10 A. It probably was explained to me at the time. I mean
11 I am not a financial person. Trade is my
12 background and, you know, finance would have been --
13 I would have known something about it but, you know,
14 in relation to trusts and discretionary trusts I
15 honestly would not have been...(INTERJECTION).
16 56 Q. No, I am sure not?
17 A. Yes .
18 57 Q. However, I am just wondering was it explained to you
19 by Mr. Traynor, can you recall?
20 A. I honestly can't recall.
21 58 Q. Yes?
22 A. It would have been explained to me. I would have
23 been more possibly focused in on the fact that one
24 was giving, whatever money you were giving, to
25 somebody else to look after it and if they decided
26 to go off with it, you know, that was it.
27 59 Q. Yes?
28 A. That was probably more in my focus of attention
29 than...(INTERJECTION).
1 60 Q. Did you take legal advice from your own solicitor at
2 the time?
3 A. No.
4 61 Q. Or from your own accountant?
5 A. No.
6 62 Q. You were depending entirely then on Mr. Traynor and
7 Mr. O'Kelly and Guinness & Mahon generally?
8 A. Absolutely, yes.
9 63 Q. Yes. You say you signed certain documents, probably
10 in 1986. What makes you think it was 1986?
11 A. Because when I discussed this with my accountant,
12 Mr. Delaney, he informed me that it was -- that it
13 might have been in the calculations that were done
14 for the amnesty. He looked at some papers that he
15 would have had, just some working papers he would
16 have, and that is where the date of 1986 came from.
17 64 Q. Yes?
18 A. Other than that I wouldn't have been able to recall
19 it. I wouldn't have known when I signed it.
20 65 Q. Did you ever obtain the Trust Deed?
21 A. It may have been part of the papers. It may have
22 been part of the papers that we got at the time. I
23 honestly just don't recall because once the amnesty
24 was closed off we just destroyed everything. There
25 was just no point in having them.
26 66 Q. You may have got it?
27 A. I may have got the Trust Deed.
28 67 Q. You have not got it now, is that the position?
29 A. I have absolutely no papers whatsoever.
13
1 68 Q. Would you write to the company in the Cayman to ask
2 them for a copy of the Trust Deed?
3 A. Pardon me?
4 69 Q. Would you write?
5 A. Yes.
6 70 Q. Would you be prepared to write to them?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 71 Q. And ask them for a copy of it?
9 A. Yes, I would.
10 72 Q. Yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 73 Q. Because it would be relevant for our investigation
13 to obtain a copy of the Trust Deed?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 74 Q. We would be grateful if you would write and ask for
16 it?
17 A. I have no problem.
18 75 Q. And also for the Letter Of Wishes? You recall that
19 a Letter Of Wishes was signed?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 76 Q. Do you recall being told what the Letter Of Wishes
22 was?
23 A. I do. My recollection of that would be that if
24 myself or myself and my wife were killed or, you
25 know, or something happened, that at least there
26 would be some piece of paper there that would say
27 who else should...(INTERJECTION).
28 77 Q. Should benefit?
29 A. Correct, yes.
14
1 78 Q. Yes?
2 A. That is right.
3 79 Q. Yes?
4 A. Or who should give the authority or should tell the
5 people what to do.
6 80 Q. Then you transferred funds to Guinness & Mahon here
7 in Dublin, is that right?
8 A. Yes. The money would have been in a bank account in
9 Dublin and it would have been just transferred to
11 81 Q. Here?
12 A. Here in Dublin.
13 82 Q. Here in Dublin?
15 83 Q. Yes?
16 A. Then whatever channel it went through after that.
17 8 4 Q. Do you remember sending it on to Mr. Traynor
18 personally or to Mr. O'Kelly or Mr. Collery? Can
19 you remember who you sent it on to?
20 A. More than likely it was to Mr. Traynor.
21 85 Q. Yes?
22 A. Or Mr. Collery.
23 86 Q. Yes?
24 A. Because they I think were the
25 people...(INTERJECTION).
26 87 Q. You transferred money to them?
27 A. Yes.
28 88 Q. This was the initial transfer of funds to the Trust?
29 A. Yes.
15
1 89 Q. Can you recall did you over the years, between 1986
2 and 1993, transfer other funds, Mr. McKeon?
3 A. I don't recall transferring.
4 90 Q. Yes?
5 A. I don't recall transferring funds, other funds, in
6 that period of time.
7 91 Q. Yes. How did you learn about Tara Securities?
8 A. It was the name that was on the piece of paper or on
9 the documentation that we signed. It was just
10 given. I mean I had no say or no...(INTERJECTION).
11 92 Q. Yes?
12 A. In relation to a name, I wasn't consulted about a
13 name.
14 93 Q. Yes?
15 A. Or asked about a name.
16 94 Q. Yes?
17 A. It was just this thing arrived.
18 95 Q. Yes?
19 A. And said your Trust is...(INTERJECTION).
20 96 Q. Yes. Your impression is that the name of the Trust
21 was Tara Securities?
22 A. Yes.
23 97 Q. You do not know for example that the Trust Deed may
24 have appointed the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
25 company as Trustees and this may be a holding
26 company under it. You do not know that?
27 A. Honestly I don't know that.
28 98 Q. You do not know that?
29 A. I wouldn't have known the mechanism. I wouldn't
16
1 have known the mechanism of it at all.
2 99 Q. Yes. Can you give me some detail Mr. McKeon about
3 the statements that were given to you from time to
4 time, and how you learned about where your money
5 was, and what interest it was earning, and the
6 development of your Trust?
7 A. In my statement is what is my clear recollection of
8 what we got at the time and that was pieces of paper
9 with just a handwritten note on the top.
10 100 Q. Yes?
11 A. And it always kind of appeared to me that if
12 somebody picked it up they wouldn't kind of know
13 what it was.
14 101 Q. They would not know?
15 A. Because it just literally had handwritten note on
16 the top and then it would have shown currencies,
17 funds in different currencies, and it was never
18 clear just what return one was getting on the money.
19 102 Q. It showed...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. And at the end of it there would have been a
21 management charge.
22 103 Q. It showed the amount, did it?
23 A. It did.
24 104 Q. In each deposit?
25 A. It did, indeed, yes.
26 105 Q. It showed the interest that was earning?
27 A. I don't think it ever showed the rate of interest.
28 It would have shown...(INTERJECTION).
29 106 Q. A sum for interest?

1 A. Correct.
2 107 Q. A sum for interest?
4 108 Q. And a management fee as well?
5 A. Yes. Yes, indeed, yes.
6 109 Q. Was the whole document handwritten, do you remember,
7 or was it just the top of it?
8 A. My recollection is that it was only the top of it.
9 110 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. The rest of it was typed.
11 111 Q. The rest was typed. Was the rest of it the sort of
12 document that you would expect to obtain from a
13 bank? Was it like a bank statement or in some form
14 of account that would have been prepared by a bank?
15 A. It really was a simple sheet with just -- it would
16 have stated the different currencies, and the
17 amounts that were in it and it just showed maybe the
18 date on it and then another date. So, one would see
19 what the gain was from one date to the other.
20 112 Q. Yes?
21 A. But I don't think it was really like a bank
22 statement as such, you know.
23 113 Q. Yes?
24 A. I mean there is a sheet there but that sheet that I
25 got, that is one of the sheets which came from
26 Mr. Delaney, that was really at the end.
27 114 Q. Yes?
28 A. When he looked for it and I think that was more, I
29 don't ever recall getting anything as formal as

1 that.
2 115 Q. Yes?
3 A. I never certainly recall Tara Securities across the
4 top of it. It would have been just something. The
5 top sheet was always torn off. It was evident that
6 somebody just put down a ruler and just did that and
7 Tara would have been written in by hand.
8 116 Q. Yes?
9 A. But I don't recall a sheet being as formal as that.
10 117 Q. Yes?
11 A. Or as neatly set out as that.
12 118 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I think that might have just been at the end of
14 day when this thing was being wrapped up, that it
15 came in this form.
16 119 Q. Perhaps, then you would give me some more evidence
17 about the decision that you took in relation to the
18 1993 Act, the waiver of Certain Taxes Act? How did
19 it come about that you decided that this Act applied
20 to you, and that there was tax due, and that you
21 would have to pay the tax due under the Act?
22 A. I recall when it was announced about the amnesty. I
23 thought about it and I personally wanted to avail of
24 the amnesty, I wanted to. Despite I had this trust,
25 I never felt comfortable about it and that somebody
26 else, you know, had control of what I had earned
27 hard, money, and so on. So, I was definitely
28 prepared to regularise this and regularise all my
29 affairs and that is what I wanted to do.

1 120 Q. Yes?
2 A. And, you know, just whatever we had to pay to the
3 Revenue I was perfectly prepared to do this, to
4 regularise it, and get everything on a footing.
5 121 Q. Yes?
6 A. That I was back in control with whatever I had.
7 Whatever I was left with, at least I was in control
8 myself.
9 122 Q. There were two aspects of it Mr. McKeon. One was
10 your lack of control, your feeling that you had not
11 got control. The second was your liability for tax?
12 A. Yes.
13 123 Q. Under the 1993 Act the provision was that a person
14 who should have paid tax and you had not paid tax...
15 A. Yes.
16 124 Q. ... was then required to make certain payments?
17 A. Absolutely, yes, that is correct.
18 125 Q. It does appear then that you came to the conclusion
19 that you should have paid tax and had not paid tax?
20 A. Yes, I think that would be correct.
21 126 Q. Who advised you about that?
22 A. I don't recall taking advice. I recall making up my
23 own mind that I wanted to regularise my affairs
24 because it was part of the amnesty.
25 127 Q. Regularising your affairs included paying tax that
26 was due that should have been paid?
27 A. Yes.
28 128 Q. Did you go to Mr. Traynor about this?
29 A. I think I only went to Mr. Traynor when the decision
20
1 was taken that we were going to avail of the tax
2 amnesty and to tell him that we wanted to close out,
3 close off, the Trust; take back all the money; pay
4 the tax that was due on the money.
5 129 Q. What was Mr. Traynor's attitude?
6 A. My recollection would be that I think he, at the
7 start, would have felt that it was maybe not the
8 right decision.
9 130 Q. Yes?
10 A. To take.
11 131 Q. Yes?
12 A. I recall that I had my mind made up.
13 132 Q. Yes?
14 A. That is what I was going to do.
15 133 Q. Yes?
16 A. And I think no matter what he said wasn't going to
17 change my mind.
18 134 Q. Yes?
19 A. Because I had made up my mind, this is what I wanted
20 to do and that is what...(INTERJECTION).
21 135 Q. Yes?
22 A. And I was...(INTERJECTION).
23 136 Q. Did he try to dissuade you then from doing it?
24 A. Well, it might be a strong word to use, you know.
25 137 Q. Yes?
26 A. Maybe the word -- and, you know, I have to think
27 back to somebody who is, you know, not on this earth
28 any more but maybe to say that, you know, he didn't
29 feel that it was necessary to do that or whatever
21
1 the case may be.
2 138 Q. Yes?
3 A. Maybe words like that rather than dissuade me
4 but...(INTERJECTION).
5 139 Q. You said you indicated that you wanted to go ahead?
6 A. I had absolutely no doubt about that. I am very
7 clear on that, that I had made up my mind. I wanted
8 to do this.
9 140 Q. Had you reached that conclusion without the benefit
10 of professional advice? Did you take advice from
11 your solicitor about the 1993 Bill when it was
12 circulated?
13 A. No, definitely not our solicitor. We would have not
14 discussed.
15 141 Q. Yes?
16 A. Any of those financial dealings with him.
17 142 Q. Yes. What about Mr. Delaney then?
18 A. Maybe with Mr. Delaney because he was both the
19 company accountant and my own personal accountant.
20 143 Q. Personal accountant?
21 A. And maybe with him.
22 144 Q. Yes?
23 A. Indeed.
24 145 Q. Did Mr. Delaney know that you had a Trust in the
25 Cayman Islands?
26 A. I would doubt it. I don't think he did until -- he
27 would not have known it until such time as we told
28 him that we wanted to avail of the amnesty.
29 146 Q. About the 1993 Act?
22
1 A. Yes.
2 147 Q. Yes?
3 A. He wouldn't have known that.
4 148 Q. He advised you then?
5 A. I honestly cannot say that, that he advised me to
6 avail of it. I am sure he did but I honestly cannot
7 say.
8 149 Q. Yes?
9 A. I cannot say with certainty.
10 150 Q. Yes. Whether...(INTERJECTION)?
11 A. But I think having discussed it with -- I think
12 John Kennedy and myself would have discussed it and,
13 you know, I think we had made up our minds that is
14 what we were going to do. Then we would have
15 informed the various necessary people so as to get
16 this thing in motion.
17 151 Q. Yes?
18 A. And to do it.
19 152 Q. Yes. Mr. Delaney then handled the matter for you
20 from then on?
21 A. Yes.
22 153 Q. He negotiated with the Revenue and contacted the
23 Revenue about it?
24 A. No.
25 MR. SHIELDS: No, there was no
26 negotiation.
27 A. There was no negotiation, no.
28 154 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry. I am sorry. I was
29 not trying
23
2 A. No, no, not at all. It is all right.
3 155 Q. I was not trying to catch you?
4 A. No, no. Not at all. No, no.
5 156 Q. Somebody had to contact the Revenue. Did he do that
6 on your behalf?
7 MR. SHIELDS: No, sorry, it does not
8 work like that. It did
9 not work like that. You assess -- you have to
10 arrive at an assessment.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I understand that
12 Mr. Shields.
13 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.
14 A. Yes. No, there was no contact...(INTERJECTION).
15 157 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McKeon, can I just
16 explain?
17 A. Yes.
18 158 Q. We have had all sorts of different evidence?
19 A. Yes, I appreciate that.
20 159 Q. Before us?
21 A. I appreciate that.
22 160 Q. I just want to understand what happened?
23 A. Yes, of course.
24 161 Q. Did you yourself write to the Revenue and say "Here
25 is the form of self assessment," or did Mr. Delaney
26 write on your behalf?
27 A. My recollection would be that there would -- we
28 would have had a number of meetings with Mr. Delaney
29 in calculating the tax.
24
1 162 Q. Yes?
2 A. In calculating the tax that was due and he would
3 have done all of the computations.
4 163 Q. Yes?
5 A. And we told him about whatever accounts that we
6 would have had or that, and it was all -- all of
7 those calculations would have been done over a
8 period of time.
9 164 Q. By him?
10 A. By him.
11 165 Q. Yes?
12 A. From the information we would have given to him.
13 166 Q. Somebody had to send the forms that were required?
14 A. Yes, indeed.
15 167 Q. Who?
16 A. Mr. Delaney would have done it.
17 Mr. Delaney...(INTERJECTION).
18 168 Q. That is what I wanted to know?
19 A. Yes. Sorry, Mr. Delaney would have done that. We
20 would have signed up all the...(INTERJECTION).
21 169 Q. Given him the information?
22 A. Signed up all the documentation. He did all the
23 calculations and he would have told us the amount of
24 money that we owed, that we were...(INTERJECTION).
25 170 Q. Yes?
26 A. That we owed to the Revenue and that is why at the
27 end -- and I don't recall ever signing that piece of
28 paper that we got from, the solicitor, Mr. Kennedy's
29 solicitor. I don't ever recall signing the piece of
25
1 paper, going back authorising I think it was Joan
2 Williams.
3 171 Q. The payments?
4 A. To collect the payments.
5 172 Q. Yes?
6 A. The cheques.
7 173 Q. Yes?
8 A. And it was only recently when I saw it that I
9 recalled that they may have came through that bank.
10 I don't ever remember being in the bank because we
11 never had any dealings with them.
12 174 Q. Yes?
13 A. But the piece of paper for the money to be made out
14 to the Revenue Commissioners, all the cheques to be
15 made to the Revenue Commissioners.
16 175 Q. Yes?
17 A. To pay the tax.
18 176 Q. I understand then that you had a consultation with
19 Mr. Delaney. As a result he computed the tax?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 177 Q. That you should pay?
22 A. Yes.
23 178 Q. He then sent on the form that you had signed?
24 A. Yes.
25 179 Q. On your behalf to the Revenue?
26 A. Yes, indeed.
27 180 Q. We have this letter that you have referred to?
28 A. Yes.
29 181 Q. This was a letter which authorised the bank to make
26
1 the payments, is that not right?
2 A. Yes, indeed.
3 182 Q. Yes. It is signed by you. It is to
4 Mr. Ronan Redmond. It is page 102 (Same Handed)
5 (Exhibit 2)?
6 A. I have it here.
7 MR. SHIELDS: He has a copy.
8 MS. MACKEY: Sorry, you have it.
9 MR. SHIELDS: He has it. I am sorry. I
10 was wondering what you
11 were doing.
12 183 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You have it?
13 A. I have it. Thank you very much, yes.
14 184 Q. Just the address "42 Fitzwilliam Square", what is
15 that address Mr. McKeon?
16 A. That is where Mr. Traynor was at the time.
17 185 Q. Yes?
18 A. I mean when we would have went to Mr. Traynor
19 about...(INTERJECTION).
20 186 Q. Yes?
21 A. About telling him that we were going to avail of the
22 amnesty.
23 187 Q. Yes. However, it looks...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. At that time he was up in Fitzwilliam Square to the
25 best of my knowledge.
26 188 Q. Yes?
27 A. My recollection is that that is where we met him.
28 189 Q. It looks as if this letter then must have been
29 written on his note paper. It is not your address?
27
1 A. No, no, not at all. That is not my address, no.
2 190 Q. Yes?
3 A. No.
4 191 Q. Yes?
5 A. No, no.
6 192 Q. Somebody must have prepared this then for you to
7 sign and you signed it?
8 A. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.
9 193 Q. And it is sent from his address?
10 A. Yes, that is...(INTERJECTION).
11 194 Q. Yes?
12 A. That is clearly the top of the sheet. Now, whether
13 it had anything else on the top of the sheet over
14 that I honestly don't know.
16 A. I don't know.
17 196 Q. Mr. Redmond was asked then to make the cheques
18 available for collection by Joan Williams. You knew
19 Joan Williams I take it?
20 A. Pardon?
21 197 Q. You knew Joan Williams?
22 A. I had met her.
23 198 Q. Yes?
24 A. On the occasions when we would go in to meet
25 Des Traynor.
26 199 Q. Yes?
27 A. We would have met her.
28 200 Q. Yes. Mr. McKeon, there was evidence given in the
29 Moriarty Tribunal by an official from the Bank of
28
1 Ireland about the movement of funds from IIB to the
2 Bank of Ireland; from the Bank of Ireland to the
3 Isle of Man; from the Isle of Man to London. Did
4 you see this? It was about your affairs, about Tara
5 Securities. Did you see this evidence?
6 A. No.
7 201 Q. You have not seen it?
8 A. No.
9 202 Q. Have you any knowledge yourself of how Mr. Traynor
10 moved these funds that were yours and were moved
11 from IIB to the Bank of Ireland; from the Bank of
12 Ireland to the Isle of Man; from the Isle of Man to
13 London? Have you any knowledge of that?
14 A. No.
15 203 Q. Did he tell you anything about that?
16 A. No, but, you know, we just lodged them and we knew
17 that they went abroad. So, in what route they took
18 to get abroad, I didn't know what route.
19 204 Q. Yes?
20 A. They took.
21 205 Q. Yes?
22 A. Once we lodged them.
23 206 Q. Yes?
24 A. Because I mean when the statement would come in they
25 were in different currencies, in...(INTERJECTION).
26 207 Q. I am not referring to that really, Mr. McKeon. What
27 I am referring to are the movements of your funds
28 from June 1993?
29 A. Yes .
1 208 Q. In a very circuitous route, in the way in which it
2 has been given in detailed evidence, some of it at
3 any rate in detailed evidence, in the Moriarty
4 Tribunal. I just want to know did you know about
5 that?
6 A. Absolutely not.
7 209 Q. You had not requested Mr. Traynor to move the funds
8 in any way?
9 A. No. We never requested Mr. Traynor to do anything
10 except to give us the money back in early 1994.
11 210 Q. Yes .
12 A. But I have no doubt the conversation -- I can't
13 recall when the conversations started with him to
14 tell him we were closing, we wanted to close, the
15 accounts.
16 211 Q. Yes. I see?
17 A. I don't recall when that...(INTERJECTION).
18 212 Q. Yes?
19 A. That might have been in mid year, you know.
20 213 Q. Yes?
21 A. The money only had to be paid over in 1994 but I
22 think it probably took a fair, a good, while with,
23 you know, various meetings and then maybe not going
24 to meetings in relation to it with Mr. Delaney. So
25 all of that was probably on-going for a period of
26 time.
27 214 Q. Yes?
28 A. And I honestly cannot recall the length of time.
29 215 Q. Yes?
1 A. But once we decided to take the amnesty, to avail of
2 the amnesty, we would have told Mr. Traynor.
3 216 Q. Yes?
4 A. So, when that was I don't know.
5 217 Q. Yes. I think that is perfectly clear, Mr. McKeon.
6 Your recollection is that you told Mr. Traynor you
7 were going to close the account but you did you
8 instruct him to make the...(INTERJECTION)?
10 218 Q. To transfer the funds in the way that we now know
11 the funds were transferred?
13 219 Q. Yes?
14 A. We were only concerned about getting the funds to
15 pay the Revenue.
16 220 Q. There is one other aspect that I want to ask you
17 about Mr. McKeon. On the documents that we have
18 obtained there is a letter from the Cayman
19 International Bank and Trust Company Limited to
20 Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited, which refers to
21 what appears to be your accounts, and the code
22 relating to your accounts (Same Handed)?
23 A. Sorry, yes.
24 221 Q. This is a letter signed by Joan Williams (Exhibit
25 3) ?
26 A. Yes.
27 222 Q. It is a request of the 17th June 1993 to transfer to
28 the Bank of Ireland:
29 "For the following accounts..."
31
1
2 And there is a DeutscheMark account in B/P and there
3 is a DeutscheMark account, another DeutscheMark
4 account, in B/Q. Did you know whether or not those
5 references to the code of the account was to you?
6 A. No.
7 223 Q. You did not know?
8 A. No.
9 224 Q. There is a further request from the sterling
10 account, a movement but you knew nothing about how
11 this was done?
12 A. No.
13 225 Q. The mechanisms of this or the code that the accounts
14 were kept in?
15 A. No, no.
16 226 Q. I see. Mr. McKeon, there just may be a couple of
17 other matters we want to consider. We usually break
18 for coffee now for ten minutes or so?
19 A. Yes .
20 227 Q. If you would stay here and you can have a cup of
21 coffee and we will be back in about ten minutes?
22 A. Thank you.
23
25
26
27
28
29
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McKeon, we will
2 renew our interview.
3 Ms. Mackey would like to ask you some questions.
5 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. McKEON BY MR. JUSTICE
6 COSTELLO
10
11
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16
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18
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20
21
22
23
24
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27
28
29
33
1 MR. McKEON WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY
3 228 Q. MS. MACKEY: I really only have two
4 questions Mr. McKeon?
5 A. All right.
6 229 Q. One is in relation to something you said in your
7 statement and I would just like you to confirm it
8 now in your sworn evidence?
9 A. Yes.
10 230 Q. You say on the second page of your statement there
11 on the third paragraph (Exhibit 1):
12
"I made a number of small withdrawals
13 from the account."
14 Can you just confirm that to us now for the
15 transcript, that from time to time you made some
16 withdrawals?
17 A. Yes. I recall, there was one that I recall making
18 when I was on holidays one time because I wanted to
19 really establish, I think it was the first one and I
20 do not recall -- I recall maybe there was a couple
21 of others but I recall one very clearly.
22 231 Q. Yes?
23 A. That I made when I was on holidays in the States
24 with the family and I wanted to just really
25 establish could I get money out of this at all or
26 was I, you know, and it did work but it took a
27 number of phone calls for to --.
28 232 Q. What did you do in order to make that withdrawal?
29 A. The one that I have a clear memory of and that is
34
1 the only one I have a clear memory of, is that I was
2 going to the States on holidays with the family and
3 I would have informed, I think it was
4 Padraig Collery that I was going and that I wanted
5 to have some dollars in the States.
6 233 Q. You did this before you went?
7 A. I would have informed him before I went and I knew
8 where I was staying and I asked him to establish or
9 to identify a bank which would have been adjacent to
10 where I was staying in a hotel and he did that and
11 he came back and he would have told me where to go
12 and to get the money. When I went, I recall when I
13 went, they did not know anything about it so then I
14 had to make phone calls back to Dublin and the
15 following day I think I received my -- it was not a
16 large amount of money, it was only a
17 relatively...(INTERJECTION).
18 234 Q. It was the bank near your hotel that actually
19 contacted Dublin or did you ring?
20 A. I rang Mr. Collery and I told him that I could not,
21 there was no -- the bank did not know anything about
22 giving me some money.
23 235 Q. And it was then transferred?
24 A. I honestly do not know what to make of it. I just
25 got the money.
26 236 Q. But you got it?
27 A. I got the money and that was --.
28 237 Q. That is fine?
29 A. That was it.
35
1 238 Q. That is that question and then just one other to
2 clarify what you were telling us there about your
3 compliance with the tax amnesty?
4 A. Yes .
5 239 Q. In 1993?
6 A. Yes .
7 240 Q. You were explaining to us that you formed your own
8 view and made up your own mind that the time had
9 come to regularise your affairs?
10 A. Yes .
11 241 Q. In relation to this trust in the Cayman Islands, why
12 did you feel it necessary to regularise your affairs
13 in respect of that trust?
14 A. If I can answer it this way to you by saying the
15 amnesty was brought in, I felt I was obliged, it was
16 under law to regularise my affairs and, therefore,
17 whatever affairs I was regularising the trust, the
18 money, was away there and I wanted to you know.
19 242 Q. I suppose my question, to be more direct, did you
20 believe you owed tax as a result of the deposits in
21 that trust?
22 A. Yes, I think that would be, yes. Having analysed at
23 the time that the amnesty came in, that certainly I
24 would believe at this stage would have been a reason
25 why I felt that I had to. If I owed tax, I wanted
26 to pay the tax and I also wanted to not have this
27 trust anymore.
28 243 Q. Yes I understand that. Did you believe that you
29 owed tax on the interest that had accumulated on the

1 deposit, would that have been your belief?
2 A. Yes, I think that was absolutely because in the
3 computations that was done by Mr. Delaney, he got
4 all the figures and he did all the calculation in
5 relation to the various elements of tax that was due
6 in the various ways, whether it was, you know.
7 244 Q. Had it been your belief from the beginning of this
8 trust that there would have been a liability for tax
9 in respect of the money in the trust?
10 A. I just cannot recall. I suppose I would have at the
11 time we did it, it was provision for the rainy day
12 because they were very difficult times and that
13 probably was not as much of a consideration at that
14 time as maybe to have something in -- because in the
15 building industry right through the 1980's were very
16 difficult times. The thought at that time was to
17 have something for the rainy day but then things had
18 kind of changed and when this came along that was --
19 so the focus at the time would not have been --.
21 A. You know maybe thinking of the element of tax, I
22 mean I honestly (INTERJECTION) .
23 246 Q. Yes, I know. Would I be correct in understanding
24 then that you did not make returns during the period
25 prior to the amnesty of the interest that had
26 accrued in this account?
27 A. That would be the best of my recollection that I did
28 not.
29 247 Q. That is fine, I have no further questions. Thank
37
1 you.
2 A. That is best of my recollection that I did not.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Rowan?
5 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. McKEON BY MS. MACKEY
10
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14
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18
19
20
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38
1 MR. McKEON WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN:
3 248 Q. MS. ROWAN:: Mr. McKeon, you say in
4 your statement that when
5 you were opening the account that the investment was
6 in the form of approved various currencies,
7 including US dollars, deutschemarks and sterling?
8 A. Yes.
9 249 Q. Why did you choose a range of currencies to hold
10 the investment in?
11 A. At the time when the money would have been given to
12 Guinness & Mahon, we would have been advised, is my
13 recollection, by Guinness & Mahon that the funds
14 would be best held in the various -- I do not ever
15 recall saying, you know, put that amount in
16 sterling, put that amount in dollars, put that
17 amount in deutschemarks. My recollection would be
18 that they advised us as to what the best currencies
19 to hold the funds in.
20 250 Q. Did they give you any other advice in relation to
21 the management of the investment?
22 A. No. I do not recall any other advice in relation
23 other than there was a management charge,
24 periodically when we would get the statement, it
25 would show the amount in the file. There would have
26 been a management charge but, no, I do not ever
27 recall getting any other advice other than being
28 told occasionally that, maybe switch the currencies,
29 maybe switch some from deutschemarks into sterling
39
1 or depending on --
2 251 Q. Did they give you advice to do that?
3 A. Periodically they would have given us advice to
4 switch.
5 252 Q. When they gave you that advice, was that advice
6 which was requested by you or offered by them
7 without your requesting it?
8 A. My recollection would be it might have come in the
9 form that when this statement came there might have
10 been a note on it to say that, maybe to switch some
11 of the funds. Certainly I do not recall having much
12 communication with -- during the time -- with
13 Des Traynor or with anybody there. I would not
14 because I am not a financial person and I would not
15 have been qualified enough to say, put it into
16 whatever forms because I would not have currencies,
17 I would not have known which one was going to give
18 the best returns so that advice would have come from
19 them but it would have come periodically. There
20 would have been very little contact is my
21 recollection over the period that this was from 1986
22 until 1993.
23 253 Q. Just let me understand this, at some point
24 Guinness & Mahon would have said and I am really
25 paraphrasing?
26 A. Yes, sure.
27 254 Q. They would have said, look Mr. McKeon, we think you
28 should change some of those dollars into
29 deutschemarks or whatever?
40
1 A. Yes .
2 255 Q. Is that what happened, did they send you a letter or
3 did they ring you or how was it done?
4 A. It would have been, I think occasionally it might
5 have been on the end of the statement that would
6 have come suggesting that some of the funds might be
7 transferred.
8 256 Q. How do you mean on the end of the statement?
9 A. Just handwritten, this statement; I am calling it a
10 statement, a piece of paper.
11 257 Q. Yes?
12 A. With Tara on it and occasionally there may have been
13 a note at the end just to say, maybe, a suggestion
14 that some of the funds would be transferred, you
15 know, put into different currencies or different
16 amounts held in, say if there was whatever amount
17 was in deutschemarks, maybe for it to come out of
18 deutschemarks or put more money into dollars or more
19 money into sterling.
20 258 Q. Was there an explanation given as to why that might
21 have been a good thing to do?
22 A. I can only recall that it was because the return
23 would be better.
24 259 Q. The interest return?
25 A. Yes .
26 260 Q. Were there dealing charges each time this happened?
27 A. I do not recall.
28 261 Q. Did you gain any impression as to whether this
29 investment advice was advantageous to you or
41
1 otherwise?
2 A. I do not recall. I think I would have thought at
3 time, if somebody had some money belonging to you
4 that the advice they would give you would be
5 advantageous rather than to your discharge, to one's
6 disadvantage. I can only answer the question that
7 way, I do not know. I honestly do not know and nor
8 do I recall, you know, maybe six months later if
9 one looked at the sheet as to whether that was
10 analysing it. I do not ever recall analysing it to
11 say, that was a bad decision. I do not ever recall
12 that.
13 262 Q. But you assumed from the information you had that
14 the advice was good advice?
15 A. I can only say that from the point of view because
16 somebody was managing this thing or looking after it
17 and I would have hoped, it would have been my
18 presumption at the time that the advice they were
19 giving me was for my benefit as opposed to a
20 disadvantage.
21 2 63 Q. So that you may have made some gains when the
22 currencies appreciated?
23 A. I honestly do not know, there may have been, I do
24 not know.
25 264 Q. Mr. Delaney, of course, would have been in a
26 position to have perhaps assessed this when he was
27 doing the calculations you explained?
28 A. Again, I honestly do not know. I would have thought
29 he would have been more focused on calculating the
42
1 tax that was due on the interest or whatever gain
2 that was done. He would have had the information on
3 the statements at the time, just would have come
4 into him and it would have been a question of going
5 back and deciding as to the various levels of tax
6 that was due and calculating that over the years. I
7 do not know, I honestly do not know as to whether --
8 I cannot say there was any currency gain, I do not
9 know.
10 265 Q. I take that point that you do not know whether there
11 was a currency gain?
12 A. I honestly do not know.
13
CM
CD
CD
Q. Whether there was not a currency gain?
14 A. I do not know.
15 267 Q. And you do not know whether those gains may have
16 created any sort of liability for you?
17 A. I am sorry, I do not know.
18 268 Q. Very well.
19 MR. SHIELDS: May I clarify that?
20 MR. ROWAN: Certainly?
21 MR. SHIELDS: I think Mr. Delaney did
22 take into account, as I
23 understand from the gain, some gain on the currency.
24 I understand that. That is all I can say.
25 Mr. McKeon may not recollect that but from our
26 conversations with Mr. Delaney, we believe he may
27 have taken that into account.
28 269 Q. MR. ROWAN: It would be useful just to
29 have clarification of that

1 Mr. McKeon?
2 MR. SHIELDS: Sure.
3 A. Yes, fine.
4 270 Q. MR. ROWAN: I do not know in what way
5 you can provide us with
6 clarification but, for instance, if you have a
7 document which is helpful in clarifying it?
8 A. I personally have no documentation. I have
9 absolutely no documentation.
10 MR. SHIELDS: I think the question that
11 you wish to have clarified
12 is whether a gain on the currency was taken into
13 account in making the calculations to avail of the
14 1993 legislation?
15 271 Q. MR. ROWAN: Yes, I think there were
16 two questions, Mr. McKeon
17 if I may put this to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 272 Q. One is were there gains and secondly, were they
20 accounted for in terms of the 1993 amnesty?
21 A. Right. We will endeavour to get the information. I
22 do not know.
23 273 Q. Okay. Thank you. The other point I would like just
24 to talk to you about, earlier in the interview we
25 discussed a letter which was dated the 7th January
26 1994, the one written on Mr. Traynor's note paper,
27 at least his 42 Fitzwilliam Square (Exhibit 2)?
28 A. Yes.
29 274 Q. Which you signed, it was an instruction to
44
1 Mr. Ronan Redmond of the Irish Intercontinental Bank
2 to raise some cheques and there appear to be five
3 cheques, four of them payable to the Revenue
4 Commissioners and the fifth payable to Management
5 and Advisory Industrial & Provident Society Limited?
6 A. Yes.
7 275 Q. May I ask you, do you know the principal of that
8 company?
9 A. Of?
10 276 Q. Of Management and Advisory Industrial & Provident
11 Society Limited?
12 A. That was a company within Sheelin. Sheelin Homes
13 was part of the Management and Advisory and
14 Industrial Provident Society. That was a company
15 that was controlled by John Kennedy and myself so
16 that Management Advisory and Industrial Provident
17 Society is still there.
18 277 Q. I see. Thank you. I do not have any other
19 questions?
20 A. Yes, thank you.
21
22 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. McKEON BY MR. ROWAN
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
45
1 MR. McKEON WAS RE-EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE
2 COSTELLO:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I think that is all
5 we require then.
6 MR. SHIELDS: There is one point
7 Justice Costello I would
8 like to clarify. Mr. McKeon was asked a question I
9 think by yourself in relation to Tara Securities and
10 the Moriarty Tribunal and the detailed financial
11 routing of certain payments, which evidence was
12 given to the Moriarty Tribunal. I think he replied
13 saying, that he was not aware and he has asked me to
14 clarify it; not aware of that and that is so but he
15 was in the last week or two given a
16 copy...(INTERJECTION).
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, does the
18 witness, does he want to
19 give evidence about this?
20 MR. SHIELDS: He asked me to clarify it.
21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: He could clarify it then.
22 MR. SHIELDS: Fine, if he can indeed.
23 278 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, if you want to
24 clarify something?
25 A. Yes, it was only within the last week, through my
26 solicitors, that they gave me a piece of paper which
27 said, just it was a cutting I think from the
28 Irish Times. I did not see it. I did not know
29 anything about it so I only learned within the last
46
1 week.
CM
2 Q. That is fine.
3 A. But I knew absolutely nothing about it whatsoever
4 but just to clarify that I knew nothing about it but
5 I know something about it now, in the form of that
6 but only within the last week.
7 280 Q. That is perfectly clear, Mr. McKeon. Our
8 investigations have to be thorough, we ascertained
9 in the way we have indicated some evidence. We got
10 other evidence from different source of the movement
11 of these funds?
12 A. Yes .
13 281 Q. From June to January of 1994?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 282 Q. What I was asking you was whether or not you were
16 aware of this movement, and you were not aware of
17 this movement?
18 A. No, no.
19 283 Q. You did not become aware of it until your solicitor
20 drew your attention to the press cutting?
21 A. That was only within the last week.
22 284 Q. Very well, that is fine.
23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McKeon, your evidence
24 will now be transcribed
25 into a typed script and we would ask you to come in
26 and sign the transcript when it is ready?
27 A. Fine thank you.
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you.
29 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED

V^Vfv
XT siooo
T
r*
UNSWQRN STATBM3OT QF MR m McKEQN
I, Sean Mc Keon, of 163 Howth Road, Dublin 3, refer to your letter of 1st February,
2000.
Myformer business partner, Mr. John Kennedy and I were involved for many years in
Sheelin Homes Limited, a property development and building company.
I recall a conversation in the early 1980's between Mr. John Kennedy, Mr. Maurice
O'Kelly of Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Limited and I when Mr. Maurice O'Kelly
mentioned that there might be an opportunity to form a trust to "put some money
away for a rainy day" having regard to thefeet that the early 1980's was a difficult
time generally for builders.
Mr. O'Kelly informed me that the investment would be set up in the form of a trust
and that while the trustees would take my instructions and that they were honourable
people, to a degree I was putting my trust in them that the monies would not
disappear. Mr. Des Traynor was mentioned as being the person in charge of the
creation, organisation and management of the trust I considered die matter for some
time and ultimately I decided to invest monies in the trust for such a "rainy day".
I signed certain trust documentation, probably in 1986. The trust was called Tara
Securities Limited. I do not know who the settlor of the trust was. I did not
understand how the trust was set up as generally I did not deal with financial matters
in relation to the business.
I signed a letter of wishes, possibly around the time of the setting up of the trust.
Originally, I was informed that the trust was a discretionary trust which was to be
located in the Cayman Islands. It was only at a later stage that I became aware that
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited was involved.
I attended at the offices of Guinnness and Mahon (Ireland) Limited at Trinity Street,
Dublin 2, on a few occasions. I was introduced to Mr. Des Traynor and Mr. Padraig
Collery. To the best of my knowledge, I did not meet Mr. John Furze, however, his
name was mentioned on a number of occasions.
The investment was in theform of a pool of various currencies including US Dollars, -

Deutschmarks and Sterling. A periodic management charge was imposed.
Intermittent statements were sent to our office at Sheelin Homes Limited,
approximately once or twice a year, on a sheet of paper with no letterhead, just a
handwritten note with the word "Tara" on it, sometimes these statements were signed
by Mr. John Furze. I have enclosed a copy of such a statement. I was generally on
site when this occurred. The return obtained on the investment was never apparent as
the information received by me was not set out in a dear manner.
To the best of my knowledge I made no further lodgments after the initial lodgment I
made a number of withdrawalsfrom the account, mainly to ensure that the
monies in the trust had not disappeared, also as the trust fund was for a 'rainy day*, I
did not regard the trust as a general source of funds. Further, I note in your letter of
1st February, 2000, at paragraphs (2) to (5) thereof that reference is made to credit
facilities offered by Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Limited and other financial
institutions to Irish, residents who held deposits with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited. I
did not avail of any such credit facilities.
In 1993 I decided to regularise my tax affairs and to avail of the Tax Amnesty of
1993. In this regard, I met Mr. Des Traynor at his office in 42 Fitzwilliam Square,
Dublin 2 on a few occasions in late 1993 in order to withdraw all monies held on
deposit by me in order to make a payment to the Revenue Commissioners* It would
appearfrom a copy letter that I recently receivedfrom Mr. John Kennedy's Solicitors
that Ms. Joan Williams may have collected certain cheques on my behalf (when the
account was being closed), drawn by Irish Intercontinental Bank. I have enclosed
herewith a copy of this letter which I understand has already been furnished to you by
Mr. John Kennedy.
Also in 1994, having regard to the fact that I had regularised my tax af&irs, I
destroyed all my books and records relating to the trust As a result of recent
searches, pursuant to your letter of 1st February 2000, my accountant has furnished to
me two copy statements, which are the only documents in his possession,which he
would have gotfor the purpose of computing my tax liability when I was availing of
the Tax Amnesty of 1993. As you have indicated in your letter of 1st Febuaxy, 2000
that you do not require details of the amount of funds or other assets transferred to
trusts, I have been advised by my Solicitors that it is appropriate that such financial
details be deleted from the copy documentation enclosed herewith.
I have written to Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Limited with a view to obtaining
copies of any records pertaining to my account I have not received a reply to this
correspondence.
I note in your letter to me of 1st February 2000, at paragraph. 6 of Appendix C thereof,

yourefer tothe Exchange Control Acts (1954-1992). I do not know whether any
application was made on my behalf under the Exchange Control Acts (1954-1992). I
would not have averted to this matter. I would have expected that all legal
requirements had been dealt with by those who established the trust.
Dated this day of May, 2000
SEAN McKEON
mon/EC/LKS/UAatulM
Appendix X V (77) (1) (c)
o
1878 S144/878 3065 42 FITZWILLIAM SQUARE

rax: «612039 . DUBUN2
7th January, 1994,

Ronan Rednond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
•Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited*
91 Herrion Square*
DPBIilN 2.
i
i
) SSLL Aceotmt Wo.02/71808/<2 "
Dear Mr. Redmond,

Could «you please arrange to- issue the following Erieh Pounds
cheques, debiting the Starling ooet to the.above Account5
• •
Payable to She Revenue Cdcnnissioners ZRfi

Payable to She Revenue Commissioners TS.S.
Payable to The Revenue Commissioners isfi*
Payable:to She Revenue Commissioners ZRf
Payable to Management and Advisory industrial
and Provident Society Ltd. IRS'
It would be appreciated if you could have these cheques
• available for collection by Joan Williams of Mr. Traynor* s
/"v Office on Tuesday next/ 1-1 th January.
It would also be appreciated if you could advise Joan Williajas
J of the Starling amounts debited In raapect of the above when
letting her have the cheques.
Tours sincerely,
Ckyman International Bank and Trust Company Limits
P.O. Box 887, Grind Car
Please reply to:
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Facsimile (809) 949-794,
Dublin 2.
Tel: 676 5144/676 3065
Fax: 6612035
17th
Roman Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
jpurther to our letter of yesterday's date in connection vith the
US Dollars and DeutscheMarks which you are holding on deposit
under reference B/P and B/Q, could you please arrange value 29th
June to transfer principal and interest in each case to:
Bank of Ireland, International Dept., Head Office,
Lower Baggot Street, Dublin 2,
for the following Accounts: ^
DMs in Account Ref. B/P to DEM Account No.31525301 ^ T ^ " V / *
US$ in Account Ref. B/P to US$ Account No.31525300 JC^X ^ ^
b\7.0 l&Ma Account -Ref1. B/Q. to Account No.31526301? Itf^fe ^ ^
V3$:'lih Account ^t.'s/Q-to tJS$ Recount N6.31526300^ ^ T W
It would be appreciated if you could advise the exact amounts
being transferred so that we can in turn advisa Bank of Ireland.
Could you also please arrange value 29th June to transfer two
amounts of Sterling as follows, debiting both sums to our No.1
Account No.02/01087/81 . These should also go to Bank of Ireland
Stg.£500,000 to GBE Account No.31525302 DT
Stg.£375,000 to. GBfi. Account No.31526302 /
Please advise if you have any probl5 s or if anything is not clear.
Yours sincerely,
/ctsu-.
F<& CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST CO. LTD.
P/V.
Guernsey - Monaco - Zurich - Nassau - Cayman - BVI
LK SHIELDS
SOLICITORS
3 9 / 4 0 U P P E R M O U N T STREET
D U B L I N 2 , IRELAND.
TELEPHONE: 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 6 6
FACSIMILE: 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0 8 8 3
D.D.E. Box No: 123
E-MAIL: email@lkshields.ie
WEBSITE: www.lkshields.ie
The Joint - Inspectors.
His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary,
OUR REF: 178-329/LKS/EC/RB/02012212L1
Ms. Noreen Mackey BL,
Mr. Paul Rowan FCA,
Mr. Michael Cush SC. YOURREF: C/M09/NS/PM
Third Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock. 23 January 2002
Co. Dublin
Re: Our Client: Sean Mc Keon
Dear Sirs /' Madam,
We refer to your letter to our client of the 21 s t December, 2001 setting out your preliminary
conclusions in relation to our client. We have a number of observations to make in relation to
same as follows:-
Our first and most fundamental objection is that you have been appointed Inspectors "to
investigate the affairs" of the company. Naming the "clients" of the company is no part of
investigating the affairs and it not necessary for the purposes of investigating the affairs of the
company. To list the "clients of Ansbacher" and identify them by name is ultra vires the
provisions of the Companies Act, 1990. It is no answer to this to say that the Inspectors are
required to do it pursuant to the order of the High Court dated 2 2 n d September 1999.
In order to advise our client we should be obliged to receive copies of all material that was put
before Johnson J. when he was invited to make the order in the first place to include the
affidavits of Paul Appleby and the exhibits thereto. We should also be obliged to receive copies
of all orders made by the Court (including all ex parte orders) in relation to the terms of reference
and the powers, and functions and duties of the Inspectors. This is fundamental to due process.
Our client reserves his position in relation to the Order made by Mr Justice Johnson on 22
September. 1999.
Please note that all further submissions made in this letter are expressly made without prejudice
to this submission.
LAURENCE K. SHIELDS, EDMUND BUTLER, PATRICIA McGOVERN, HUGH GARVEY, JOSEPH M. GAVIN, EMMET SCULLY, GERARD HALPENNY.
JUSTIN McKENNA, MICHAEL KAVANAGH, EUGENE FANNING, DAVID J.H. WILLIAMS, FIONA THORNTON, NICOLA PALMER, PHILIP DALY, MARCO W. HICKEY,
AOIFE BRADLEY. STEPHEN BRENNAN, SIOBHAN BUCKLEY, PAULA BURKE, JENNIFER CLARKE, EOIN CUNNEEN. PAT FOX, JAMES McGILLION,
NIAMH McKEON, ORLAIGH O'DWYER, DERVAL O' HALLORAN, JENNIFER O'NEILI, CORA CRAMPTON (Financial Controller), THOMAS JACKSON (Consultant).
As you arc aware, our client closed his account in January,1994 in order to avail of the
Waiver of Certain Interest and Penalties Act. 1993 (" the Tax Amnesty"). In purporting
to make a finding of fact that our client was a "client of Ansbacher" (which we note you
have neglected to define and we call upon you to do so), we would respectfully submit
i hat you are contravening the spirit of legislation enacted by the Oireachtas which entitled
people to declare to the Revenue Commissioners and deal with in a confidential and
lawful manner any previously undeclared taxation liabilities.
We see absolutely no justification for you to refer to the company Sheelin Homes
Limited. Many persons have been involved with this company over the years and it is an
invasion of their right of privacy as well as that of the company together with the
company's good name to make reference to the company in the context of a report such
as this. We accordingly request that the whole of the first sentence of your preliminary
conclusions be deleted.
The statement in the second paragraph "Around 1986, he permitted a discretionary trust
to he established in the Cayman Islands'" presents an unbalanced picture of what actually
happened. In the interests of balance, this should include a reference to the fact that this
was done by our client "at the suggestion ofGMF.
There is no evidence to support the statement "GMCT managed the trust (he believed).'"
If anything, the reference should be to GMI.
The statement that our client "enjoyed the use of the trust funds by means of a service
provided by Ansbacher whereby he was able to withdraw funds in Ireland" is untrue and
misleading. Our client never knowingly had any dealings with Ansbacher (as defined).
Our client's statement says that he made a number of small withdrawals from the
account, mainly to ensure that the monies had not disappeared. One such withdrawal was
made in the United States through Mr. Collery. The fact that the funds involved were on
one occasion paid to accounts in Ireland (when the account was closed in order to avail of
the Tax Amnesty) does not mean that they were withdrawn in Ireland. It appears from
exhibit 2 that instructions were given to IIB to make funds available in Irish pounds in
Ireland but the withdrawal could have taken place anywhere. At best, the evidence would
support a statement that our client "enjoyed the use of the trust funds by means of a
service whereby he was able to obtain funds from Mr. Desmond Traynor or Mr Collery"
Given the damage to one's good name associated with being named as a "client of
Ansbacher". we respectfully submit that it is incumbent on the Inspectors to present a
complete picture and avoid causing unnecessary harm to our client's good name and
reputation which he is anxious to protect. Therefore, we submit that fairness and your
constitutional obligations to vindicate our client's good name as far as possible require
you to add the following words to the last paragraph of your preliminary conclusions:-
" in order to make a payment to the Revenue Commissioners under the Tea
Amnesty. "
We look forward to hearing from you in relation to the above.
Yours faithfully.
T
Appendix XV (78) Mr Thomas J McLaughlin, deceased
Thomas J McLaughlin.
a) Letter of 19 December 2000 - Arthur Cox Solicitors to the Inspectors.
b) Declaration of Trust - Coral Reef Securities.
c) Nominee Agreement of 11 November 1980 - Coral Reef Securities.
d) Nominee Agreement of 11 November 1980 - Coral Reef Securities.
e) Nominee Agreement of 11 November 1980 - Coral Reef Securities.
f) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 March 1993 re Hamilton Ross.
g) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 January 1993 re Hamilton Ross.
h) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 December 1992 re Ansbacher

Cayman Limited.
i) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 October 1992 re Ansbacher

Cayman Limited.
j) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 March 1994 re Hamilton Ross.
k) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 December 1993 re Hamilton

Ross.
1) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 30 September 1993 re Hamilton

Ross.
m) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 30 June 1993 re Hamilton Ross.
n) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 30 September 1994 re Hamilton

Ross.
o) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 30 June 1994 re Hamilton Ross,
p) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 October 1995 re Hamilton Ross,
q) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 8 July 1995 re Hamilton Ross,
r) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 25 April 1995 re Hamilton Ross.

s) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 30 November 1995 re Hamilton
Ross.
t) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 30 April 1997 re Hamilton Ross,
u) Ansbacher Limited statement of a/c of 31 October 1996 re Hamilton Ross.
Correspondence received from or on behalf of Thomas J McLaughlin,
a) Letter of 18 December 2001 - Arthur Cox Solicitors to the Inspectors.

ARTHUR COX
EARI.SFORT CENTRE, EARI^HORT TERRACE, DUULIN 2
THL +353 1 618 0000 FAX +353 1 618 0618 Dx 27 DUBLIN
maiI@artiiurcox.ie http://www.artkurcox.ie
BKI.FAST NEW YORK

SNHLII IloiJiii, 17-25 CUUHW SOTJAWI G,wr S70 Ijixwonw AVUNUE, 28TO FUXI*
riguwr IRRI 61 ID Nmr YORK, NY 10022
TKuaiiowi +44 28 <M123 0007 TKiJiPWWi! +1212 759 0808
FAX +44 28 9023 3464 FA* +1 212 688 3237
oi'itummsin torn BEtiaC^T!
AXC/as
it
19th December 2000
The Inspectors
Third Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Re: Tom McLaughMnDeceased

Your Reference fC/MlO^TDP
Dear Sirs,
My colleague, Paul Mc Laughlin, has copied to me your correspondence to him dated 29th
November, 2000, in order to obtain copies of any documents held by me relevant to your inquiry.
I have furnished to him copies of all such documents.
I was somewhat concerned however that the submission of the documents without any
explanation as to their background and meaning could lead to confusion and misunderstanding.
Paul McLaughlin has advised me that he is not in a position to provide that background as he had
no knowledge of the transactions in question. However this was a matter on which Tom
McLaughlin consulted me initially in June, 1998.1 felt therefore that it would be appropriate to
provide an explanation of certain of the documents to ease the task of the Inspectors, and because
I believe that based on the information provided to me by my late client, it will explain that his
connection with the Ansbacher deposits was innocent and not motivated by tax avoidance
objectives.
Background
Tom McLaughlin advised me that he was a closefriend of a lady named Barbara Breen, who had
worked in his company since the 1960s. Tom McLaughlin knew Mr. Des Traynor socially,
primarily as a result of the fact that Barbara Breen was a next door neighbour of Mrs. Traynor and
remained closefriends with her.
Tom McLaughlin was a 25% shareholder in Aran Energy and when he sold that shareholding in
1980, he used Guinness & Mahon's stockbrokmg services and hence encountered Mr Traynor on
a business level. The bank provided investment advice to Tom McLaughlin until approximately
JAMHS O'LVN'TIR 1'AI I. MIIATOMIJN IAN A. SCOTT JOHN G. l-'liii I)ANII:I. H. O'CONNOK I'HTCB MCUI'OIIIJN RIIHIIRT H<HTON J<HIN V. O'ONTB RONAN VAI.SII UI'UENI-: P. 1-ANXINI;
DONOOII CKDVI.KY JOHN S.WAI.SU MICIIAKI. MI:C.III:N JOJHIMI I.I-VIJUN WII.MAM JOHNSTON MCCAUI'II NICHOLAS U. MOI»H OIICUX H.VYMS
DAVID O'IXINOIIOK CIJUM DCUIAN CAIII. O'SU.UV.VN LSXMII. Pouiv JIIIIN MI-AIM; C'IINIIH MCDONNI'.IJ. PATVICK MIOOVIIKN GRAINNU 1IIN.\I:SSY SI*AMIS GIV*N COI.IN HVKNI:
CAWX.I.VI; DMJ.V t'LUtix UOUFFIR GKMIOKVGIAXV HUMftxj-VROM' YTii.ixt.vs Stmam Dkisiask
lli-UUM' HM.I.V O'x.vni'
SAKIII KATMI.HW GACKI IT IMUKIII; <5 KJOKUII.V
III' M.VDV UKIAIIWH I :> 1/. I.IT.I 11/ V1-. rwi-. I MI ...I. V»'., I ... 1 ...... 1,,,.., M.^rnvti I....... / O..I . fVf '. ivûm, 1J..I . V / V/ . .< C 11 I>'I'||\.-
fVnftjR cox
Page: 2
1983.
Mr Traynor made an approachtoTom McLaughlin around June, 1980 and indicated that he was
concerned that Ms Breen's interests should be adequately protected Mr. Traynor said that although
she had worked in Tom McLaughlin's company for about 16 years, no pension provision had been
made for her and he suggested that Tom McLaughlin should establish a fund for her benefit Tom
Mc Laughlin believed Mr. Traynor made the approach to himtoestablish the fund for Ms. Breen
because of his knowledge of the gain Tom McLaughlin had realised cm the Aran Energy shares, and
also because he knew that Tom McLaughlin was in receipt of significant ESR (Export Sales
Relieved) (ie taxfree) dividends at that time.
Tom McLaughlin then provided a sum of some IR£382,000 to Mr. Traynor to be held on trust
and applied at Mr Traynor's discretion for Ms Breen's benefit Tom McLaughlin instructed me
that this trust fund was funded from a mixture of ESR dividends, which were tax exempt and also
from a significant gain realised by him on the sale of his shares in Aran Energy (on which capital
gains tax had been paid). Thus the fund in question camefrom after tax capital gains and tax
exempt income. No documents were signed by Tom McLaughlin in relation to this trust fund
nor did Mr. Traynor furnish any receipts.
Tom McLaughlin did not receive any accounting statements in respect of the fund from Mr.
Traynor or any other parties. On Mr. Traynor's death, Tom McLaughlin expected to hear from
Mr. Traynor's executors in relation to the fund. In ??w»v 1.9°*, Tom McLaughlin learned for the
first time that the fund had been invested by the late Mr. Traynor, for at least of a period of time,
in Ansbacher Cayman. The Moriarty Tribunal supplied certain bank statements to Tom
McLaughlin in respect of a sum of money invested with Ansbacher Cayman in the name of
Hamilton Ross, and advised Tom McLaughlin that this fund was his. Tom McLaughlin became
extremely concerned when furnished with this documentation and information.
Tom McLaughlin then sought to establish whether Mr. Traynor as the trustee in control of the
fund had dealt with the tax liability on the investment income generatedfrom the fund. When
he established that Mr. Traynor had not done so, Tom McLaughlin instructed me to contact the
Revenue Commissioners in relation to the matter and I provided all of the relevant information
as set out above. Tom McLaughlin then discharged the income tax liability arising on the trust
income.
I am aware that Tom McLaughlin also co-operated fully with the Moriarty Tribunal.
I furnish this background information to explain the reasons, so far as I as aware of them, as to
why Tom McLaughlin's name emerged in the context of Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited at all.
Tom McLaughlin always maintained that he never sought to evade the payment of taxes, and had
no reason to do so as a significant portion of his income was tax exempt. It upset him greatly that
a sum of money on which all relevant taxes had been paid, which he entrusted to Mr. Traynor as
a professional, had subsequently been handled the way that it was ie invested in an institution
which was subsequently surrounded by so much controversy, and with tax on the investment
income generated not having been dealt with properly. This was a source of upset and distress
to Tom McLaughlinfrom the time he became aware of where the trust fund had been invested
in early 1998 until his death in January this year.
AHUR C O X
Page:3
Appendix C
Turning to the documents supplied by my colleague Paul McLaughlin in response to the queries
raised in appendix C of your correspondence, those which merit comment are as follows:
1. Tom McLaughlin told me that hisfriend, Ms. Barbara Breen, wished to purchase a house
in Portugal, and received advice that in order to minimise any exposure to Portuguese inheritance
taxes she should do so through an off-shore company. The house was therefore purchased
through a Cayman Island company, Coral Reef Securities Limited. Although these documents
refer to the property/the shares as being for the benefit of the survivor of Barbara Breen (known
as McLaughlin) or Tom McLaughlin, Tom McLaughlin intimated to me that he regarded the
property and the company as beneficially owned by Ms Breen, since the purchase of the house
/"-s was funded by her.
Note that the Revenue Commissioners have been advised of this company and the Portuguese
property, and all relevant taxes, including residential property tax, have been paid.
2. (0 The Ansbacher bank statementsfor the periodfrom January 1993 to September 1994
were supplied to Tom McLaughlin by the Moriarty Tribunal. You will note that the balance of
the statements were provided to me by Mr Padraig Collearyfollowing my correspondence to him
seeking accounting records for the funds.
On Tom McLaughlin's instructions, I contacted the Revenue Commissioners in July 1998 when
he realised that income tax had not been paid on the investment income generated by the trust
fund, and the income tax liability was discharged by Tom McLaughlin on being quantified by
me in early 1999.
(ii) I do not believe that the Guinness & Mahon documentation supplied comes within
the scope of the query set out in question 2 of appendix C, but I have included it as requested by
f**" Ms Cummins of your office in a telephone conversation on 11* December last. As mentioned,
Tom McLaughlin had substantial funds available for investment in the early 1980s, the period
to which these documents relate. He had realised some Stg£517,000 on the sale of shares in Aran
Energy (which converted to IR£567,289) and he was also in receipt of substantial ESR dividends
during this period For example ESR dividends in thefive yearsfrom 1980 to 1985 inclusive
averaged at IR£200,530 per annum
(iii) In relation to the miscellaneous bank statements provided by the Moriarty Tribunal,
Tom McLaughlin advised me that his Northern Ireland company Windsor Nutrition Ltd
experiencedfinancial problems in 1989, and was closed. His companies generally suffered
cashflow difficulties for a period around that time and Mr. Traynor organised a temporary facility
for Merops (Nutrition) Ltd which was subsequently repaid.
4. The document entitled Credit Committee Application was provided to Tom McLaughlin
by the Moriarty Tribunal. The borrower named was Windsor Nutrition Limited, a company
owned by Tom McLaughlin, which carried on business in Northern Ireland.
Tom McLaughlin advised me that he had never seen this documentation prior to the Moriarty
A H U R C O X
Page: 4
Tribunal copying to it to him. Tom McLaughlin advised me that his company Windsor Nutrition
Limited did have a facility with Northern Bank Limited for which he required a guarantee of
Stg£100,000 in 1987, but this was only for a period of one year. Tom McLaughlin indicated to
me that he was puzzled by the reference on the first page of the document to the transaction being
the subject of a review on 21" August, 1989. Tom McLaughlin advised me that he did not
believe that the guarantee to Northern Bank would have been in existence at that time, and that
there was no reference to it in the accounts of Windsor Nutrition Ltd at that date.
Tom McLaughlin further advised me that he did recall requesting the organisation of a guarantee
from Guinness & Mahon when it was required by Northern Bank in 1987, but that he was not
provided with any paperwork in connection with the guarantee so provided. Tom McLaughlin
was not advised by Guinness & Mahon that any fee was to be charged for the provision of the
guarantee. Tom McLaughlin instructed me that he did not have any back to back arrangement
in place in respect of this guarantee. However, Tom McLaughlin advised me that the late Mi'.
Traynor may have felt secure in organising the guarantee for Windsor Nutrition Ltd in the
knowledge that at the time he held a significant sum of money belonging to Tom McLaughlin
under his control at that time.
I trust that this information will be of assistance in analysing the documents, and also in
clarifying Tom McLaughlin's connection with the subject matter of your inquiry.
Yours faithfully
.njjmjm" ji.II
DECLARATION OF TRUST
This Declaration of'Trust made on behalf of CORAL REEF SECURITIES

LIMITED, a Company incorporated in the Cayman Islands and having
its registered office at P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, B.W.I,
(hereinafter called "the Company")
WITNESSETH AS FOLLOWS: -
1. THAT the Company lis the owner of Site No.534, Vale de Lobo,
Almansil, Algarve, Portugal (hereinafter called "the property").
2. THAT the Company holds the Property for and on behalf of

BARBARA M. McLAUGHLIN and TOM MCLAUGHLIN of 41 Waterloo Lane,
Ballsbridge, Dublin 4, Ireland, as joint tenants and that on the
death of either the said BARBARA M. McLAUGHLIN or TOM McLAUGHLIN,
the Company will hold the Property in trust for the survivor
absolutely.
3. THAT in the event of the simultaneous death of the said

BARBARA M. McLAUGHLIN and TOM McLAUGHLIN, instructions for the
disposition of the Property will come fmm either or both of the
following individuals namely, JACK J. STAKELUM or
JAMES DESMOND TRAYNOR.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF THE

COMMON SEAL of Coral Reef -
Securities Limited was
hereunto affixed in the
presence of:
John A. Collins,
Director, and
John A. Furze,
Director.
••/ •
"omim:
•
NOMINEE AGREEMENT
CAYMAN ISLANDS
I/We John A. Furze

(
of P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman

' l:^ hereby declare that the Ninety Eight: — share (s)
in
• ' CORAL REEF SECURITIES LIMITED
now standing inrayname in the books of the said Company was/were pur-
chased or provided out of monays belonging to 7. j. McLaughlin &/or
Barbara Breen for the benefit of the survivor
of 41 Wat-Pôo Lane, Dublin 4, Ireland
(hereinafter called "the Owner") and is/are now held by
me/us as nominee for the said Owner.
As witness my hand this 11th day o l November 19 80
George Town
NOMINEE AGREEMENT
CAYMAN ISLANDS
I/We Delrose M. Williams

of P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman
hereby declare that the One share (s)
in Coral Reef Securities Limited
now standing in my name in the books of the said Company was /were pur-
chased or provided out of moneys belonging to j, McLaughlin &/or
Barbara Breen for the benefit of the survivor
of ,
41 \oo Lane, Dublin 4, Irel?~d
(hereinafter called "the Owner") and fa/are now held by
As witness my hand this 11th day of November 19 SO
A- h u)*JL
DELROSE M. WILLIAMS
P .0. Box 887,

George Town
NOMINEE AGREEMENT
CAYMAN ISLANDS
I/We John A. Collins

of P.O. lor. 887; Grand Cayman
hereby declare that the C r. « share (•)
in Coral Reef Securities Limited
now standing in my name in the books of the said Company was /were pur-
chased or provi ded out of moneys belonging to T.J. McLaughlin &/ or
Barbara Breen for the of the survivor
of
41 Waterloo Lane, Dublin 4,
(hereinafter called "the Owner") and is/are now beld by
P.O. Box 887,

George Town
SMOTilVli
jfAMILTON ROSS
L. J
{irsciiti'jKuv;
>8/02/93 BROUGHT FORWARD
19/03/93 09/03/93 TO CALL
J9/03/93 09/03/93 REPAID
J9/03/93 09/03/93 RELODGED
)9/03/93 09/03/93 REV ENTRY
J9/03/93 09/03/93 INTEREST
19/03/93 09/03/93 Interest to 09/03/93
11/03/93
V
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness
A/A'l O A

B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: sterling
•mim
353240.78
89185.39
270000.00
270000.00
4376.80
5944.61
4376.80
270000.00
<f
AMILTON
AM IJOSS
L J
(H HCHH'nuW
Vi/Ol/93 BROUGHT FORWARD
p't/01/93 00/12/92 LODGED
ANSBACHER LIMITED
A/A10A
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001107 PAGE 1

B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: s t e r l ilig
. ; < HF IMI ; r ^^^^ft/VliliiS 1

®; •
i^wff
lj. 00
353240. 78
353240.7U
Appendix XV (78) (1) (h)
Ans
.nsbacher Limited
'ayman
bavi
L J
30/11/92 BROUGHT FORWARD
8/12/92 8/12/92 Interest to 8/12/92
L0/12/92 8/12/92 REPAID
10/12/92 fl/12/92 RELODGED
LO/12/92 8/12/92 INT ADJ
31/12/92
V CARRIED F O R W A R D
ANSBACHER LIMITED
A/A1OA
A C C O U N T NUMBER 80001107 PAGE 23

B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: s t e r l il'lg
344648.18
8592.61 353240.79
353240.78
353240.78
0.01
353240.78
Appendix XV (78) (1) (i)
L
g ^ O U G H J FORWARD
1/10/92- 30/ 9/92 ttEVERSAL
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box BQ7 Grand Cayman British West Indies
A/A10A

B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: £ t e r 1 i^g
4ILT0N ROSS
L_

09/03/94 09/03/94 RELODGED
39/03/94 09/03/94 REPAID
D9/03/94' 09/03/94 TO CALL D/A
28/03/94 09/03/94 INTEREST
A / A j OA
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001107 PAGE-

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: s\er 1 ing
281517.55
200000.00
200000.00
84597.85 196919.70
3080.30
Appendix XV (78) (1) (k)
(HAM
HAMILTON BOSS
30/11/93 BROUGHT F O R W A R D
09/12/93 09/12/93 REPAID
09/12/93 09/12/93 RELODGED
09/12/93 09/12/93 Interest to 09/12/93
A/A1OA
A C C O U N T NUMBER 00001107 PAGE f»

BALANCES S H O W N ARE IN: sterling
277624.16
281517.55
281517.55
3893.39
281517.55
Appendix XV (78) (1) (1)
|f1AMILT0N
lAH 110SS
J
3i/08/93 BROUGHT FORWARD
09/09/93 09/09/93 REPAID
09/09/93 09/09/93 RELODGED
09/09/93 09/09/93 Interest to 09/09/93
ANSBACHER LIMITED
A / A 10A
A C C O U N T NUMBER 80001107 PAGE

B A L A N C E S S H O W N A R E IN: sterliiij-
277624.16
277624.16
3881.15
277624.IC
Appendix XV (78) (l)(m)
Uffil'LTOM ROSS
J
•. : IH^pFilRHUN
11/05/93 OUGHT FORWARD
19/06/93- 09/06/93
)9/06/93 09/06/93 RELODGED
19/06/93 09/06/93 Intei-est to 09/06/93
10/06/93
\
ANSBACHER LIMITED
A / A J OA
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001107 p A Q E "H

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: s t e r 1
70000.00
273743.01
273743.01
3743.01
Appendix XV (78) (1) (n)
|HAMILTON
HAM~I \
ROSS
i1/OB/94 B R O U G H T FORWARD
16/09/94 07/09/94 Interest to 07/09/94
; (...
o
A / A i OA
P A G E
ACCOUNT NUMBER 8000110? «:>
BALANCES S H O W N ARE IN: s t e r l i ng
202150.34
2204.96
Appendix XV (78) (1) (o)
(RAMI
HAMILTON ROSS
U _J
PPSPFJIPTION
20/06/94 08/06/94 INTEREST
20/06/94 08/06/94 RELODGED
20/06/94 08/06/94 REPAID
10/06/9A
k ._
A / A J. O A
P A Q E
ACCOUNTNUMBER 00001107 7
BALANCES S H O W N ARE IN: s t e r ' i ilTG
200000.00
2150.34
202150.34
202150.34
202150.34
f*
Appendix XV (78) (l)(p)

) >
[HAMILTON ROSS
A/AIOA
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001107 PAGE j t
U I / ( | ( i " if,
BROUGHT FORWARD
VI / .ID/05 24/10/95 Interest to 24/10/95 101495.89
! i /in /of, 31/10/95 1455.01
TO CALL 102950.90
X'
' 1 / I! 1 /•!.',
Vs-.. CARRIED F O R W A R D 0 • 0 0
Appendix XV(78)(l)(q)
HAMILTON ROSS
',• !)r.sr,Fiii'iio;'j
MO/06/95 BROUGHT FORWARD
/U'./O 7/95 25/07/95 REPAID
20/07/95 25/07/95 RELODGED
Vfi/.i)7/')f) 25/07/95 Interest to 25/07/95
A/A10A

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: sterl ing
1
A BALANCE
100000.00
101495.89
101495.89
1495.89
101495.89
Appendix XV (78) (1) (r)
<T A MILTON ROSS
l/OJ/ST) BROUGHT FORWARD

5/04/95 25/04/95 INTEREST
•I/<>4/,,5 25/04/95 TO CALL
;(i/04/')5
A/AJ.OA |
ACCOUNTNUMBER 80001107 PAGE g

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: s t e r l i n g
2043.'55.30
4861.36
109216.66
100000.00
—- /
Appendix XV (78) (1) (s)
" V ' '/"•< 30/11/95 REV ENTRY
:,i/i
'/"'•> 30/11/95 Interest to 30/11/95
o
Ml/ll/'ir,
CARRIED F O R W A R D
A/A1OA

0.00
113.53
113.53
Appendix XV (78) (1) (t)
[HAM:
HAMILTON ROSS n
L_ _J
•DKSCHiiM'lON ..

16/04/97 16/04/97 TO CALL
16/04/97 16/04/97 Interest to 16/04/97
A/A10A
A C C O U N T NUMBER 80001107 PAGE
BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: ster 1 ing
BALANCE <
400000.00
411468.49
11468.49
0.00
i
Appendix XV (78) (l)(u)
BROUGHT FORWARD
IA/10/96 FROM CALL D/A
'• 1 / I M/"6
A/A10A
ACCOUNTNUMBER Q0001107 PAGE 13
BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: ster 1 ing
> BALAKIC'E FI • * IF"
0.00
400000.00
400000.00
J
ARTHUR COX
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AXC/as
18th December, 2001
The Inspectors
Third Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Re : Thomas J. McLaughlin Deceased

Your Reference : C/M10/MSPM
Dear Sirs,
We acknowledge receipt of your correspondence dated 3 rd December, 2001, addressed to Paul

McLaughlin of this office in his capacity as executor of Thomas J. McLaughlin Deceased. We
have copied this correspondence to the other executors, Paul Carty and Jack Stakelum.
Having considered your correspondence, it is submitted that the concise nature of the
Inspectors' Preliminary Conclusion could unnecessarily give rise to inferences adverse to the
interests, good name and reputation of the late Mr. McLaughlin. This is because it is not clear
from your document that the fund entrusted to Mr. Traynor had been provided from after tax
gains and also from income which was exempt from tax. Furthermore, it is not recorded that
Mr. McLaughlin deceased was unaware that the fund had been invested by Mr. Traynor in
Ansbacher. This information was provided to the Inspectors in the correspondence dated 19th
December 2000 from Anne Corrigan of this office, which letter the Inspectors relied upon in
supporting their conclusions.
We would request therefore that the position be clarified by the insertion of the following to
the Inspectors' Preliminary Conclusions after the words "Hamilton Ross" :
"It was submitted that the fund in question was provided by Mr. McLaughlin from after tax
gains and tax exempt income. It was asserted on Mr. McLaughlin's behalf that he had no
knowledge that the sum of money he entrusted to Mr. Traynor had been placed on deposit with
Ansbacher until after Mr. Traynor's death. It was further submitted that when Mr.
McLaughlin became aware of this in 1998, he took steps to have the fund repatriated to
Ireland, and made contact with the Revenue Commissioners on a voluntary basis to ensure that
any relevant taxation liability in relation to the interest earned on the fund was discharged."
JAMES O ' D W Y E R L'\RI M I LAI C.IILIN IAN A . S C O T T DANIEL I:. O ' C O N N O R I'I; I I K MC LAI Y.IM.IN ROHERT ROI.TON J O H N V. O ' D W Y E R RONANVAI.SU DO.NOUH CROWLEY
JOHN S.WALSH MICIIW-I. MECIIEN JOSHIMI LEYDEN WILLIAM JOHNSTON FICEXE MCCAC.I'E: NICHOLAS G. MOORE DECLAN HAYES DAVID O'DONOHOH
COLM DFGOAN CARI. O ' S I LLIVAN ISABEL FOLEY JOHN MI M M : CONOR MCDONNELL PATRICK MCGOVLRN GRAINNE HENNESSY SEAMCS GIVEN COLIN BYRNE
CAROIJNE DEVLIN CLARAN ISolC.ER C>KU:< IKY GLYNN DAVII) L'OL IA S I l i l ' I I E N I lECAIilY DEC I AN DLUSI ANE SAKAI I CL NNIEE ICVll IM:KN' GARRETT PADRAIC, O RIORDAIN H U Z A D E T I I B O T I I W E L L
W I L L I A M OUR A N I I R I . W I.I-NNY / O I I N M I N ION PATRICK O ' B R I I - N O K U O'CONNOR BRIAN O ' G O R M A N MARK S A C N D E R S MARK BARR JOHN MATSON DEBORAH SPENCE
CONSULTANTS: VINCENT W H . S I I DENIS J. HEROIN C l I E T W O D E HAMILTON NlAI.I. M C I . M ' O I I I . I N DR. YVONNE SCANNELL D R . ROIIERT C U R K JOHN G . FLSIL D R . MARY REDMOND
ARTHUR COX
Page : 2
We should be grateful if you would consider our submission and amend the wording of your
Preliminary Conclusions accordingly.
Yours faithfully
ARTHUR COX
Appendix XV (79) Mr Colm McLoughlin
Colm McLoughlin.
a) Affidavit of Mr Colm McLoughlin dated 16 January 2002.
b) Transcript of evidence of Mr Ray McLoughlin dated 13 September 2001.
c) Transcript of evidence of Mr Maurice O'Kelly dated 10 April 2000.
d) Transcript of evidence of Mr Martin Keane dated 16 February 2000.
e) Undated handwritten memo re Selima Investments.
f) Internal Guinness and Mahon loan memo of 11 April 1984.
g) Memo of 11 September 1984 - Pat O'Dwyet to Brendan Donnelly.
h) Guinness and Mahon confirmation of loan reversal of 17 September 1984.

i) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 1 October 1984 - Pat O'Dwyer to
Maurice O'Kelly.
j) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 18 October 1984 - Pat O'Dwyer to

MJ Pender.
k) Internal Guinness and Mahon file note of 14 December 1984 signed by Mr

Pat O'Dwyer.
1) Memo of 26 March 1985 - Mr Ru Leonard to Mr Brendan Donnelly.
m) Notification of share transfer of 18 May 1985.
n) Letter of 28 May 1985 - Guinness and Mahon to Dewdrop Investments

Limited.
o) Letter of 4 September 1985 - Guinness and Mahon to James Crean

Limited.
p) Letter of 14 January 1986 - RJ McLoughlin to Guinness and Mahon.
q) Note to Mr Pat O' Dwyer from Mr Ray Mc Loughlin dated 14 January

1986.
r) Internal Guinness and Mahon file note of 15 January 1986 signed by Mr
Martin Keane.
Z0^
AFFIDAVIT
In the matter of the Ansbacher Inspectors and in the matter of the preliminary
conclusion reached in relation to Ray McLoughlin.
I, Colm McLoughlin, of Villa #46, A1 Gharhoud, Dubai, United Arab Emirates, (P.O.
Box 8652) Company Director aged 18 years and upwards make oath and say the
following to be true from facts within my knowledge or otherwise to the best of my
knowledge and belief:
1. I have been resident outside of Ireland for 27 years of my working life. I am

currently a resident of Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.
2. I am a brother of Ray McLoughlin. I have read the preliminary conclusions of the

Ansbacher Inspectors in relation to Ray and I am surprised that the Inspectors do
not accept his evidence in relation to the beneficial ownership of Selima
Investments Ltd and Dewdrop Investments Ltd.
3. I visited Ireland from Dubai in 1984 and I discussed and agreed with Ray that I
would buy 350,000 shares in James Crean pic for my own account. Ray was very
keen that I would buy the shares as he was in favour of gettingfriendly parties to
acquire and build up shareholding positions in Crean.
4. Guinness & Mahon arranged a Cayman Island company (SELIMA) for my

benefit and Selima borrowed the money and acquired the 350,000 shares. Ray
negotiated the loan on my behalf and the formalities and paper work were handled
by Guinness & Mahon. Guinness and Mahon were aware that I was the principal
behind Selima Investments and the Crean share transactions because it was they,
through the late Des Traynor who arranged Selima for me. Ray did not acquire
any beneficial ownership in Selima or the 350,000 shares at that tune or
subsequently.
5. I carried out business through Selima only for a relatively short period of time. At
my request the shares and borrowings were transferred from Selima to Dewdrop
in 1985, a company formed for my benefit also by Guinness & Mahon. Ray did
not acquire any beneficial ownership in Dewdrop or in share transactions carried
out by Dewdrop at that time or subsequently.
6. I continued to build up a position in Crean through Dewdrop, and Dewdrop repaid

its borrowingsfrom Guinness & Mahon some years later.
I trust that the Inspectors will correct the incorrect preliminary conclusions which they
have reached in relation to my brother Ray.
Sworn by the said Colm Mcloughlin
In the presence of
1^0 N S o u C\Tt)^ TH£-
And I know the deponent
Dated this 16th of January, 2002

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF RAY McLOUGHLIN
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 13TH SEPTEMBER 2001
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: JUDGE SEAN O'LEARY
MR. MICHAEL CUSH SC
MS. NOREEN MACKEY BL
Accountant to the Inspectors MR. THOMAS SLEVIN
Interviewee: MR. RAY McLOUGHLIN
Represented by: MR. BILL SHIPSEY SC
Instructed by: MR. HAUGHTON FRY
(SOLICITOR)
1 THE INTERVIEW OF RAY McLOUGHLIN COMMENCED ON
2 THURSDAY 13TH SEPTEMBER 2001, AS FOLLOWS
4 JUDGE O'LEARY: Thank you very much for
5 attending, Mr. McLoughlin,
6 we appreciate it greatly.
7 MR. SHIPSEY: Judge, just before
8 Mr. McLoughlin is
9 sworn...(INTERJECTION)
10 JUDGE O'LEARY: Well I presume he is
11 already, I am going to
12 treat him as already sworn.
13 MR. SHIPSEY: Very good. My very recent
14 suggestion, Mr. McLoughlin
15 make contact with his brother, who is based in the
16 Middle East, but who actually has been travelling
17 over the last while in South America. He sent a fax
18 through to Mr. McLoughlin yesterday and I would just
19 like to give it to you, it is from the Sheraton Rio
20 Hotel and Towers. If I could just give you some
21 copies of that.
22 JUDGE O'LEARY: We might find it
23 difficult to contact
24 Mr. McLoughlin in the Sheraton Hotel.
25 MR. SHIPSEY: I think you will.
26 JUDGE O'LEARY: He is a bird of passage in
27 that location, I think.
28 MR. SHIPSEY: My understanding is that
29 he is heading back for
3
1 Dubai.
2 JUDGE O'LEARY: All right. I will read
3 that, okay.
4 MR. SHIPSEY: Very good.
5 JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. Well I think this is
6 in accordance with what
7 Mr. McLoughlin has indicated to us.
10 MR. McLOUGHLIN, HAVING ALREADY BEEN SWORN ON A
11 PREVIOUS OCCASION, WAS CROSS-EXAMINED BY THE
12 INSPECTORS AS FOLLOWS
13
14 JUDGE O'LEARY: Thank you very much
15 indeed, Mr. McLoughlin,
16 for your attendance here today. We appreciate it
17 greatly. We know that you were already interviewed
18 by the Inspectors but that really related to that
19 famous document note to John Furze. Really we have
20 no further questions to ask you about that. That
21 really is as, I will not say a dead issue but it is
22 not an issue which we need concern ourselves about
23 much since we have heard your explanations on that.
24 This is a different matter altogether. We are
25 dealing here with a question of who, if anybody,
26 were clients of a company we are investigating. That
27 company is Ansbacher. It was called Ansbacher
28 Cayman, Ansbacher, it was also called Guinness Mahon
29 Cayman Trust and various names. It had various
4
1 names. So that is the purpose, if you like, of
2 today's exercise.
4 We have been instructed by the High Court to
5 establish who the clients were. I think you know the
6 Inspectors. There is Ms. Mackey, who was already
7 present at the first interview and insofar as in the
8 course to the extent that any decisions are
9 necessary in respect of that interview only those
10 people who were Inspectors, at that time, will
11 participate in that portion of the decision, nothing
12 to do with me at all.
13
14 Mr. Cush is a recently appointed Inspector with
15 myself, when I say recently now, 12 months ago, and
16 my name is Sean O'Leary, I am another Inspector.
17 There is a fourth Inspector, Mr. Paul Rowan, but he
18 is not here this morning.
19
20 As you anticipate indeed from the letter which you
21 got from your brother, the purpose of this exercise
22 is to try and establish once and for all whether a
23 company and a series of transactions relating to a
24 company called Selima, whether that indicates that
25 any person, including a company, when I say a
26 person, was a client of Ansbacher. That is the
27 purpose of the exercise. In fact, very often when
28 people come in, we are dealing with the same thing
29 as we dealt with twenty different times previously.
5
1 This is a rather different situation. So it also
2 has importance from the point of view of the type of
3 service which the company appears to have been
4 providing for people out of Ireland. That has some
5 significance also. So it is along those lines we
6 would like to go.
8 First of all, could I ask you, because I am a little
9 bit confused about your brothers, how many brothers
10 have you that are relevant to this?
11 A. There is only one. I have two brothers altogether,
12 Judge O'Leary, my brother Phelim lives in the UK, my
13 brother Colm lives in the Middle East.
14 1 Q. The problem with Phelim is that while he has nothing
15 to do with Selima, the borrowings that commence with
16 Selima and end up seem to incorporate Phelim
17 eventually. He seems to come into the picture. We
18 will to that later. So there is Phelim and there is
19 Colm; is it?
20 A. They are my two brothers.
21 2 Q. Colm is living in the Middle East, you say?
23 3 Q. You see as a result of what Colm says we may want to
24 contact Colm, do you have an address for him?
25 A. Yes, I do but I don't have it with me.
26 4 Q. That is no problem at all.
27 5 Q. MS. MACKEY: There is a PO Box on this
28 letter; is that his
29 address in Dubai?
6
1 6 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: In United Arab Emirates;
2 is that it, Dubai?
3 A. Yes .
4 7 Q. Would that be the normal place to contact him at?
5 A. It would be.
6 8 Q. Have a look at it there now and see whether you
7 think that is right?
8 A. I think it is. It is a PO box number and I think
9 that is it. Most of my communication with him would
10 be by fax or by phone.
11 9 Q. I understand that, of course, yes?
12 A. You can take it that that is right.
13 10 Q. I think most people in Middle Eastern countries like
14 that use post office boxes rather than, we will say,
15 ordinary postal address. Now what you might do is
16 you might check whether -- and convey through your
17 solicitor, whether that is, in fact, the best way to
18 contact him?
19 A. Right.
20 11 Q. Obviously if we accept what he says there we may
21 have to contact him and that is the reality of life,
22 because he may or may not then be a client within
23 our definition. That is that is a matter which we
24 will have to consider in due course, that is number
25 1. Your brother Phelim then, he is in England, is
26 he and have you got his address?
27 A. I have indeed.
28 12 Q. Yes?
29 A. His address, I can give it to you afterwards.

1 13 Q. That is right. There is no problem about giving us
2 any kind of information like that afterwards, okay,
3 right. Thank you very much.
4 A. Okay.
5 14 Q. Now what I have done is that we got certain
6 documentation from Guinness & Mahon and that
7 documentation we have put in date order to the best
8 way we can and I intend going through that
9 documentation with you and asking you questions
10 about it. I do not think there is anything in the
11 document that you have not seen before. If there is
12 there is no problem at all, you can discuss the
13 matter with your solicitor and barrister, there is
14 no difficulty in that at all. If you want to
15 adjourn at any time to discuss it with him, just
16 tell us you want to adjourn it. Similarly if your
17 solicitor or barrister feel it is appropriate for
18 you to adjourn to discuss the matter, all they have
19 to do is say to us look we would like to discuss
20 with our client and we will withdraw. In addition to
21 that we will have a break for tea of coffee at a
22 convenient time and the thing is very relaxed in
23 that way. There is only two formal aspects of the
24 matter. One is we must swear you but as you are
25 already sworn and do you remember that you are
26 already sworn?
27 A. I do indeed.
28 15 Q. You are still sworn as far as this is concerned. The
29 second is that you must sign the transcript
8
1 eventually. That is also provided for in the Act.
2 All right. I have prepared a file of the documents
3 that I will be showing to you and it is that blue
4 folder there. You might just have a look at that.
5 It might be handed over to Mr. McLoughlin. I do not
6 think there is any document in it that you do not
7 know about already.
8 A. Would you like me to look through it now.
9 16 Q. Not at all, I will go through it and if you want
10 time to look at any particular document, of course
11 say it to us, there is no difficulty at all. Now
12 the first document really is probably something you
13 know nothing about at all (Exhibit 1). It is an
14 internal GMI, I say GMI, Guinness Mahon Ireland, an
15 internal GMI document. It's significance really is
16 a note about the borrowing of £460,000. Do you
17 remember the borrowing of £460,000 to buy shares?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 17 Q. Do you remember the circumstances surrounding that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 18 Q. And what were they?
22 A. My brother Colm decided that he wanted to buy some
23 Crean shares. Guinness & Mahon provided him with
24 this company to buy them through and he sought a
25 borrowing from Guinness & Mahon to fund the purchase
26 and that is what this £460,000 is about.
27 19 Q. Yes, and did you negotiate it on behalf of your
28 brother?
29 A. Yes. I was the principal communicator on this loan

1 with Guinness Mahon.
2 20 Q. So do you remember the date?
3 A. Well other than -- I have seen it in the Guinness
4 Mahon file but I wouldn't otherwise remember it. At
5 this moment I can't quite remember but I think it
6 was -- would it have been 11th April?
7 21 Q. Yes, I think if you look at the second document you
8 will see that 11th April was their approval date.
9 The second document (Exhibit 2). You see down at
10 the bottom of these documents there are numbers,
11 they come from a different file that we have and
12 that is 109, do you see down, at the very end.
13 A. Sure.
14 22 Q. You can see that is 11th April. So it appears to
15 mean that the document 105, which I have previously
16 referred to, the first of the documents, predates
17 11th April by some short period in time. I think it
18 is a preliminary note of some kind. I do not see on
19 that document anything about who their client was,
20 accept the shares are in a company called Montoire
21 M-O-N-T-O-I-R-E Limited?
22 A. Yes .
23 23 Q. Do you know anything about that company?
24 A. Montoire was a nominee company used by Guinness
25 Mahon in Guernsey. It is a Guinness Mahon company
26 and it was used as a nominee holder of these shares
27 on behalf of Selima.
28 24 Q. I see. So it was a nominee company?
1 25 Q. All right. Excellent. If you look at the second
2 page, which is page 109, you will see that this is
3 an internal GMI document. Now, funnily enough it
4 does not seem to suggest who the principal of Selima
5 Investments is. Did you know, at that stage, who
6 the principal of Selima Investments was?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 26 Q. Who was it?
9 A. My brother Colm.
10 27 Q. Do you know whether Selima Investments, is that a
11 Channel Island or a Cayman company?
12 A. I do, well, to the best of my knowledge and belief,
13 I am 99 percent sure it is a Cayman Island company.
14 It was presented as such.
15 28 Q. In fact, if you look at the first document, you will
16 see that the first document, at page 105, has GMCT
17 reference on it. You see "care of" seems to be
18 taken out by a punch button, GMCT post office box;
19 you see that?
20 A. Yes .
21 29 Q. If you like, that is the thing that highlighted it
22 as far as we are concerned?
23 A. Yes .
24 30 Q. So that is grand. That is very helpful indeed. So
25 really I have nothing else to say to you about
26 page 109. If you look at the third page, which is
27 page 107 because this came from a different file and
28 the numbers may not be in strict sequence
29 (Exhibit 3). I have tried to put them in date order

1 rather than in sequential order. You will see that
2 it is Selima Investments, Guinness Mahon Limited
3 account details, you can see that. A borrowing a
4 principal of £486,000. It is 14th April 1984 is the
5 contract date and the significant thing, as far as
6 we are concerned, because we are only interested in
7 things which are relevant to us. It is Selima
8 Investments Limited, Post Office Box 887, Grand
9 Cayman, British West Indies. You can see that down
10 on the left-hand, Mr. McLoughlin?
11 A. Yes.
12 31 Q. That actually is Ansbacher's address?
13 A. Yes.
14 32 Q. We concluded from that, on a preliminary basis, that
15 it was an Ansbacher related company on the balance
16 of probability. You have no reason to suppose that
17 is not right?
18 A. I have no reason to suppose that is not right.
19 33 Q. That is fair enough. That, if you like, is the
20 basis of our investigations. The next page which is
21 111 in terms of numbers is just a dealing ticket
22 from Davy's or something along that line
23 (Exhibit 4), I do not know what they call. It just
24 a note of the actual purchase. There is nothing
25 particularly significant about it accept it is there
26 for the sake of completeness, all right. It
27 confirms that the number of shares were £350,000,
28 all right?
29 A. Yes.
12
1 34 Q. If you look at 113 (Exhibit 5), which is the next
2 page, this has some significance because it is six
3 months after the original transaction. The 11th
4 September 1994 and it says: Please arrange to
5 change the name of the account to Montoire Limited
6 and that is a Surrey address. Then there are various
7 other details which really are of no concern to us.
8 You see written along the bottom by GMI, Montoire
9 Limited at the bottom, on the right-hand side. Do
10 you remember the circumstances in which that change
11 was made?
12 A. No, I have looked at this documentation in
13 preparation for this meeting, as you can imagine and
14 I have seen that and I don't know what that means.
15 As far as I am concerned Montoire was a nominee
16 holder for Selima for as long as it existed and I
17 don't know what that particular one was.
18 35 Q. I think what they are trying to convey there,
19 Mr. McLoughlin, is Montoire was always the nominee
20 holding company of the shares but they are talking
21 here about the borrowing?
22 A. Yes, I can see that.
23 36 Q. He changed the name of the above account. They are
24 talking now about the account now which is a
25 different matter altogether.
26 A. Sure.
27 37 Q. Do you remember the circumstances?
28 A. I do not. I have no recollection of any change of
29 that kind.
13
1 38 Q. Yes. So obviously...(INTERJECTION)
2 A. It is odd because Montoire is Guinness Mahon
3 company.
4 39 Q. Is a Guinness Mahon company. Yes and, in fact, there
5 could be merit in what you are saying because
6 ultimately when that happens another company, by the
7 name of Dewdrop, comes into the reckoning. You
8 know, they do not seem to have done that. They seem
9 to have ultimately transferred it to a company
10 called Dewdrop. We will see about that in due
11 course?
12 A. Sure.
13 40 Q. All right. If you look at the next page you will
14 Selima Investments Limited which is page 115
15 (Exhibit 6). The reason that I am giving those
16 numbers is that my colleagues here have had the
17 original files which relate to other matters
18 altogether. I am giving those numbers so that they
19 can see them. You see the only purpose of me putting
20 that in is that you can see that the address for
21 Selima Investments Limited is the same post office
22 box in Grand Cayman?
23 A. Sure.
24 41 Q. Other than that it is a matter of no concern. We
25 come to 117 which is an internal memoranda of
26 Guinness Mahon of 1st October 1984 (Exhibit 7), have
27 you seen that document before, Mr. McLoughlin?
28 A. I have.
29 42 Q. This is one of the documents which concerns us, as
14
1 you will appreciate. Have you any comment to make on
2 the document first before I ask you any questions?
3 A. Not really.
4 43 Q. Well, first of all, it says that you had been asked
5 to guarantee the loan; is that true?
6 A. I don't recall that, but it could well have
7 happened.
8 44 Q. But would it not have been an extraordinary thing,
9 Mr. McLoughlin for you to guarantee a loan for your
10 brother.
11 A. I think it wouldn't be in the least bit
12 extraordinary, Judge O'Leary.
13 45 Q. Would it not?
14 A. No. I have guaranteed or helped out financially many
15 people in my life time who were less connected to me
16 than my brother was.
17 46 Q. Yes, but I don't get the impression, Mr. McLoughlin,
18 from that your brother that he was in position, at
19 that stage, where he needed much assistance because
20 he and, of course, I understand we would all do that
21 for our brother if we had to, but if we take your
22 brother's letter to be truthful and I have no reason
23 to suppose it is not, you have appended it yourself,
24 he says:
25 "During a visit to (INAUDIBLE) I

decided to buy James Crean shares,
26 350,000. I decided I wished to acquire
a company in a tax (INAUDIBLE) location
27 to carry out this purchase and arrange
it then."
28
29 So this was not something, the wolf was not at the
15
1 door. He was making a voluntary decision to invest
2 in a company which might or might not prosper and
3 which might or might not show a profit. Now to seek
4 a guarantee from your brother, in that situation, is
5 rather unusual; is it not?
6 A. I would say not based on my experience of dealing
7 with banks, Judge O'Leary, lenders are looking for
8 additional collateral all the time and they will
9 look for it for wherever they think they will get
10 it.
11 47 Q. I see. I do not think anyone could deny the accuracy
12 of that statement, Mr. McLoughlin, anybody who has
13 been around at all. Now if you look at the last part
14 of the memo however the matter assumes some
15 different significance. It says:
16 "He mentioned to me..."
17
18 He, now being Ray McLoughlin, he mentioned to me
19 that he would like to give the question of the
20 guarantee some consideration as there was a distinct
21 possibility he may repay the loan in the near
22 future. What does that mean, do you think?
23 A. I really don't know.
24 48 Q. Would it be fair to say this and I'm not saying that
25 it is a truthful assumption; would it be fair to say
26 that the person writing the memo thought it was, in
27 fact, your loan?
28 A. I would not necessarily accept that, Judge O'Leary.
29 I have a low view about file notes as indicative of
16
1 what takes place between a banker and a borrower
2 based on my experience. This could have been a typo.
3 It could have been an error in transcription or on
4 recording on the part of Pat O'Dwyer. My experience
5 of file notes, trying to summarise five or six lines
6 what could have taken 15 or 20 minutes, over the
7 phone suffers from inaccuracy inevitabilly. I could
8 have said, for example, I will discuss it with my
9 brother and I feel there is a possibility he will
10 repay it in the near future. I don't remember any
11 of these things but I can think of many, many
12 reasons why that could creep into a file note when,
13 in fact, it does not reflect the reality.
14 49 Q. Yes, but would it be a fair thing to say that if it
15 does reflect the reality, if it does and I know you
16 don't accept it does, I have to, of course, give
17 appropriate weight to that and the other Inspectors.
18 When I say I, I mean the four of us. The reality is
19 if it does reflect the, reality it does mean that it
20 was your borrowing. If that was an accurate note of
21 what you had with them, it would lead on the balance
22 of probability to the conclusion that it was your
23 borrowing?
24 A. Well, not necessarily, I could have said that for
25 all kinds of other reasons but I don't recall this
26 meeting at all and know nothing about that meeting
27 until I saw the file note.
28 50 Q. And you will appreciate that my concerns, I don't
29 care anything about James Crean, it is a matter of
17
1 no concern, as far as I am concerned, but if my job
2 and our job is to identify who the clients are,
3 right, we have to be satisfied that in reality it
4 was your brother was the client and not you.
5 A. True, I understand.
6 51 Q. We do not want to name your brother as the client
7 if, in fact, you are the client. So that is the
8 purpose of going through all this. It's effect on
9 James Crean is tangental, as far as I am concerned;
10 do you understand that?
11 A. Yes.
12 52 Q. Now, right so we will leave that, I have heard what
13 you have said about that. Now, whatever
14 misunderstanding or anything else Pat O'Dwyer had,
15 it seemed to last until 18th October, because if you
16 look at the next page, page 119 in the standard file
17 (Exhibit 8), it says: "Montoire Limited". Again, I
18 know what we have said about that, it is the same
19 borrowing anyway:
20 "You may recall it was agreed that

Ray McLoughlin should give his
21 guarantee to cover the above borrowing.
To date I have not received the
22 guarantee in question. He has, I
think, to discuss the matter with
23 Maurice O'Kelly. Should I write to him
forwarding a guarantee for completion
24 and return."
25
26 Do you remember that?
27 A. No.
28 53 Q. Do you remember anything about it at all?
29 A. No.
18
1 54 Q. If you look at the following page, which is 121
2 (Exhibit 9). The borrower is Montoire Limited,
3 apparently, at this stage. This is implementing the
4 change that your brother refers to. This is just a
5 loan offer. There is nothing dramatic about it. I
6 have really no questions about it other than to tell
7 you that the document is there, do you understand?
8 A. Yes, sure.
9 55 Q. I mean I have no -- there is nothing magical about
10 it. It is just part of the routine, if you like.
11 If you look at the next page on that file that I
12 have given you, page 124 (Exhibit 10), again it is a
13 Pat O'Dwyer, "POD", appears to be the origin of
14 this. Again he is now talking Montoire. It is the
15 same money though, whether he is calling it Selima
16 or Montoire, this really is the same borrowing.
17 Then he says: "Facility letter" even though it is a
18 substitution.
19 "Facility letter issued on 23rd

October."
20
21 That is the one we have looked at:
22 "I await receiving a copy of authorised

signatures, bold resolution, blank
23 transfer, power of sale and guarantee
of Ray McLoughlin and this loan may
24 have been the subject of further
discussion with Ray McLoughlin, in the
25 meantime however my security remains
incomplete."
26
27 Now do you know anything about that?
28 A. What was the question?
29 56 Q. Do you know anything about the fact that when the
19
1 loan was to be substituted from the name of -- from
2 it's earlier name to Montoire Limited that there was
3 a suggestion that you would give a guarantee?
4 A. I have no recollection of that.
5 57 Q. That is the question, do you remember that?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 58 Q. If you look at the next page, page 126 (Exhibit 11),
8 all that is is a limit updating. It appears that
9 the borrowing was transferred into Deutsch Marks, at
10 some time and that is only just a note of it. There
11 is nothing of any particular significance there but
12 it is there for the sake of completeness. You see
13 the next one has some significance (Exhibit 12).
14 Again it is January '85. We are now talking about
15 almost eight or nine months after the original
16 borrowing and a few months after Montoire became the
17 account. You can see account name: "Montoire
18 Limited" and that is one of their standard notes on
19 what the account was. You can see there that the
20 address which was given which presumably was the
21 correct address for Montoire, and somebody within
22 the organisation, now this is an internal document
23 has crossed out Montoire and put Dewdrop Investments
24 Limited. If you like, the sequence of events is
25 Selima, Montoire, Dewdrop Investments. As you say
26 Montoire is only a company for holding shares and
27 securities and that sort of thing. Dewdrop
28 apparently were the people that were doing the real
29 borrowing. Do you know anything about Dewdrop
20
1 Limited.
2 A. I do, but before it might be marginally helpful to
3 point out that based on the Guinness Mahon file I
4 got, Dewdrop didn't seem to come into existence
5 until, I think, it was March 1985.
6 59 Q. That is correct.
7 A. This suggests to me, therefore, that later in the
8 day this hand written note was written, later in the
9 day, by way of correction of an
10 earlier...(INTERJECTION)
11 60 Q. It really does not matter whether it was done in
12 January or March?
13 A. Sure.
14 61 Q. It does not make any difference. I am not hung up
15 on that document. I am quite happy to pass that
16 document over and go on to later documents. Let us
17 forget that.
18 A. Sure okay.
19 62 Q. Do you see 26th of March. In fact, I think if you
20 look at 4th or 3rd next page you will see that we
21 have a Certificate of Registration of Dewdrop, which
22 is 14th March 1985 (Exhibit 15). So I am quite
23 happy to forget everything before that which I am
24 not concerned about. If you look at page 129
25 (Exhibit 13), at the bottom, which is immediately
26 after that last one we looked at, you will see that
27 this reflects, I think, what the reality of the
28 situation appears to have been:
29 "The borrowing in the name of the

above: Montoire has been switched to
21
1 Dewdrop Investments Limited."
3 All right, so that is grand. Apparently they held
4 some money on deposit in anticipation of interest.
5 I am not really concerned about that. I am not
6 really concerned about the details of this, I am
7 only concerned about the ownership. The details are
8 not of any great relevance. Now who owns Dewdrop or
9 do you know anything about Dewdrop?
10 A. Yes, I do. Dewdrop was a company in Colm's ownership
11 which was provided for him in 1985.
12 63 Q. In whose ownership?
13 A. Colm, my brother Colm.
14 64 Q. In Colm's ownership?
15 A. Yes.
16 65 Q. I see.
17 A. The letter from Colm points out (Exhibit 43).
18 66 Q. Yes, at paragraph 4, I think?
19 A. That he...(INTERJECTION).
20 67 Q. You might read that just for the record?
21 A. Sure. From Colm's letter he says:
22 "About a year later I decided that I

wished to conduct my affairs through
23 the Channel Islands rather than the
Cayman Islands and Guinness Mahon
24 arranged a company for me in the
Channel Islands called Dewdrop
25 Investments for this purpose.
Following that, I arranged the transfer
26 of all the assets and liabilities of
Selima to Dewdrop."
27
28 68 Q. So Dewdrop was is a company probably, I know the way
29 these companies work, but ultimately the beneficial
22
1 owner was your brother?
2 A. That is my understand.
3 69 Q. Yes, I understand. Did you have any interest in
4 that company?
5 A. No.
6 70 Q. Now if you look at the next page, page 131
7 (Exhibit 14), that is only just practical
8 confirmation that what was said was to be done was,
9 in fact, done. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 71 Q. It has an address in Guernsey which I think is
12 Colleague Trustee's address. Do you see it down
13 there, do you?
14 A. Sure, I do.
15 72 Q. Had you any personal dealings yourself with College
16 Trustees?
17 A. No.
18 73 Q. I am not really interested in the details of them
19 but if you had any contact with them?
20 A. No, none.
21 74 Q. That is okay. The next page is just the articles,
22 the Certificate of Registration of Dewdrop, which is
23 page 133 (Exhibit 15). It should be the very next
24 page. I think you have that there, that is just a
25 copy of that. That is only in there for
26 completeness. I think on 23rd April, a formal offer
27 was made to Dewdrop, by Guinness Mahon and that is
28 page 135 and 136 which you have also in the
29 documents (Exhibit 16); all right?
23
1 A. Yes.
2 75 Q. Page 138 (Exhibit 17), the top of that is cut off,
3 but I think it says: Dewdrop Investments Limited
4 and it is signed by Mr. Ellis. Mr. Ellis was
5 apparently an official in that company, a Director,
6 and he encloses the usual thing and says -- they are
7 obviously no longer using Montoire they are using
8 Mars Nominees, and we are familiar with them, there
9 is no difficulty. But, of course, you know nothing
10 about that because that was not your business?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 76 Q. All right. Page 139 (Exhibit 18), which is the next
13 page in your file. That page 139 is just some kind
14 of a note, a certificate from the Directors of
15 Dewdrop giving certain comfort to Guinness Mahon,
16 that is all that is. Page 140 is not a big deal
17 (Exhibit 19), it is just a note with regard to the
18 transfer from Montoire to Mars Nominees. That is
19 actual implementation of that. Then page 143 is copy
20 of an original allotment letter (Exhibit 20), which
21 again is of no great significance. 145 and 146 are
22 further copies (Exhibit 21). Page 148, you will see
23 to John Lipscombe, do you see John Lipscombe's name
24 there (Exhibit 22). Page 148?
25 A. Yes.
26 77 Q. He is a gentleman, I think, associated with College
27 Trustees and that is just a standard letter, there
28 is nothing particularly important about it I think
29 there must have been some kind a rights issue
24
1 because if you look at page 149 (Exhibit 23), you
2 will see that a borrowing is requested by Dewdrop in
3 or around, in or around April of 1985, about some
4 rights that they had under some scheme of James
5 Crean. Was there a rights issue at around that
6 time, Mr. McLoughlin, in 1985?
7 A. There was a rights issue, I think, in May of 1985
8 and this would have related, I think, to taking up
9 those rights.
10 78 Q. Yes, they would have had. Did you negotiate this
11 with Guinness Mahon, this additional facility?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 79 Q. Your brother did not?
14 A. No.
15 80 Q. Yes. With whom would you have negotiated that do you
16 remember?
17 A. I was primarily negotiating with Maurice O'Kelly.
18 Pat O'Dwyer was really quite secondary initially. I
19 couldn't actually say at what point he came into it
20 more. This one in 1985 we could not really say but
21 certainly I am quite sure that the earlier one had
22 dealt with Maurice O'Kelly.
23 81 Q. I see. There was a Mr. Pender involved, did you deal
24 with him?
25 A. Yes. I dealt with Michael Pender. I couldn't say
26 from recollection though which of these
27 transactions.
28 82 Q. I understand, yes, that is very reasonable. It is
29 just that his name is on page 149. He is only down
25
1 as a recommendation?
2 A. I think he took over from Maurice O'Kelly.
3 83 Q. Yes, he seems to have had some input into that, at
4 that stage. Would you have discussed that on the
5 telephone with him or would you have discussed it in
6 writing. We do not seem to have anything in writing
7 which would indicate you discussed it in writing, if
8 we had we would include it?
9 A. I can't really recall that, but I would expect that
10 I would have presented information on Crean, since
11 the heart of the borrowing had to do with shares in
12 Crean. I see on the file a document I prepared
13 later with regard...(INTERJECTION)
14 84 Q. That is a later document, yes, we will come to that
15 later, yes?
16 A. I would guess that I prepared something like that
17 earlier but it is not in the file and I have not
18 found anything like that in my own files.
19 85 Q. Yes, we have not either. I can only assume that it
20 might have been done on a telephone or something
21 like that?
22 A. No, I would say not.
23 86 Q. You would say not. All right, well we do not have
24 it and you do not have it either?
25 A. No.
26 87 Q. All right, fair enough. If you look at the next
27 page, page 150 (Exhibit 24), this is only a record
28 of the borrowing at a particular time. I think 27th
29 May in 1985 was, I think, the appropriate date for
26
1 that. This is, if you look at it and put it in it's
2 context, we are now a year later than when all this
3 first borrowing started. Again my real interest is
4 finding out who owns Selima. I really have very
5 little interest beyond that. But obviously I have
6 to give considerable weight to what your brother
7 says, if I contact him I will have to give
8 considerable weight to that. But I also have to go
9 through and see are there hints within the file.
10 This is what I am doing now. In May 1985 there
11 appears to be, at page 152 (Exhibit 25), there is an
12 offer. There is a second copy of the same thing put
13 in for a different reason, at page 154 (Exhibit 26),
14 because there is a note on the top:
15 "Switch from Montoire, (Packie)sic..."
16
17 Do you see that up there on top?
18 A. Yes.
19 88 Q. That is an internal document. I would not expect
20 you to know much about it. You see that document,
21 in fact, was signed by Dewdrop Investments by a
22 Mr. Scott. Did you know Mr. Scott?
23 A. I never heard of him.
24 89 Q. Dewdrop Investments Limited apparently, at page 157
25 (Exhibit 27), wrote with various routine matters in
26 connection with the borrowing of the facility.
27 Nothing really arises from it. At page 158
28 (Exhibit 28), there is the formal Director's meeting
29 note of Dewdrop saying that they are taking up the
27
1 shares and borrowing and various other things that
2 are necessary. Do you know anything about that?
3 A. No, I think it is fair to say that I would not have
4 seen that until I saw it on the Guinness Mahon file.
5 90 Q. But could you tell me how the system worked before
6 we go any further. I understand you negotiated on
7 behalf of your brother, that I understand. But there
8 was is a mechanics necessary then, I mean it is one
9 thing to say I am negotiating on behalf of my
10 brother, but somebody had to put the mechanics in
11 place. Dewdrop was a company that was being used.
12 Who was actually doing that business?
13 A. What do you mean by the mechanics, Judge O'Leary?
14 91 Q. Well the mechanics is you, you say you pick up the
15 telephone or you go in and talk to or you supply a
16 document to Mr. O'Kelly and you agree with him:
17 Yes, I will give your brother additional money and
18 that is agreed and bankers as you say, they will
19 shake hands, and they will be very nice to you. But
20 then you come to the hard business of actually
21 saying what company's name is this going to be in.
22 Who is going to organise the resolutions. Who is
23 going to organise the Articles of Association. Who
24 is going to organise all that. Who did all that
25 organisation, the nuts and bolts, if you understand
26 what I mean?
27 A. I think that what would happen following agreement
28 on the terms of the loan, following negotiation, is
29 that I would tell Colm about that and he would tell
28
1 Dewdrop about that and that then Guinness & Mahon
2 would communicate with Dewdrop about the mechanics
3 of the borrowing. But I actually can't say that I
4 was over that ground, at any stage and I can't
5 really give evidence on that but that is my
6 impression.
7 92 Q. But did you ever make direct contact with Dewdrop?
8 A. Never.
9 93 Q. Either in the setting up stage or in the other
10 stage?
11 A. No, the setting up of Dewdrop was done by Guinness
12 Mahon itself on behalf of Colm.
13 94 Q. Well, thank you very much indeed, that is helpful.
14 Page 160 is just a note from Davy Stockbrokers about
15 the acquisition of some shares. Pages 161 is a
16 similar note. Page 162 is a similar note. If you
17 look at June 1995, 12th June 1995 (Exhibit 29):
18 "John Lipscombe. Re: Montoire, Re: John." They
19 appeared to be, as you say, writing to Dewdrop, well
20 it is actually College Trustees they are writing to
21 and they think they are writing for Montoire. Do
22 you know any reason why they should still be writing
23 about Montoire even though I think Montoire was gone
24 from the scene, at that stage?
25 A. I would say, I don't know, confusion?
26 95 Q. Confusion is probably the best explanation of it.
27 But anyway they are communicating
28 with...(INTERJECTION)
29 MS. MACKEY: But I think Montoire was
29
1 still the registered
2 owner.
3 96 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes. Then on 18th June,
4 I think:
5 "Thank you for your letter of 12th June

1985 addressed to John.
6 The Stock Transfer Form has been
executed by Montoire Limited and is
7 returned for your further attention."
o
o
9 Well, in fact, the stock transfer form we have is
10 from Dewdrop but that is neither here nor there. If
11 you look at page 167 (Exhibit 31), ultimately anyway
12 all the shares were coming to the name of Mars
13 Nominees. That is ultimately what was going on. All
14 right. If you look at page 170 (Exhibit 32), there
15 is some College Trustees documentation there and as
16 trustees do, from time to time, they are looking for
17 money, at page 171 (Exhibit 33). At page 173
18 (Exhibit 34), they get the money. Page 175
19 (Exhibit 35), a new person comes into the scene
20 Paddy Meagher. Who is Paddy Meagher?
21 A. Paddy Meagher is a man who worked in my office in a
22 financial capacity.
23 97 Q. Was he an accountant?
24 A. He was, yes.
25 98 Q. Was he the accountant?
26 A. No.
27 99 Q. Or was he a Company Secretary?
28 A. He was not the accountant, no. He was not the
29 Financial Director or Company Secretary. He was an
30
1 accountant.
2 100 Q. But I mean he obviously had a function. How would
3 you have described his function, at that time?
4 A. 1985, he was just part the administration team. He
5 helped me with various matters, from time to time. I
6 wouldn't say he had a very specific function. He
7 was part the administration team.
8 101 Q. Why would Guinness & Mahon be writing to Mr. Meagher
9 about Dewdrop?
10 A. Well because if I wished to communicate with
11 Guinness Mahon on some matter relating to this loan
12 which I had been doing it would have been natural
13 that Paddy would help me on that, from time to time,
14 and that is clearly what happened here.
15 102 Q. But I thought they were communicating with College
16 Trustees, Dewdrop. They had people to communicate
17 with?
18 A. Sure. Nevertheless though I would have some
19 communication with Colm on these matters and that
20 led to this communication with Paddy Meagher. I
21 guess the channels of communication were not
22 absolutely black and white all of the time.
23 103 Q. But I do not really think that it is a mistake,
24 because it is a very detailed letter which I do not
25 intend to go into, but it is a very detailed letter
26 and it is not the only letter. Before we finish
27 there is another letter so let us make that quite
28 clear as you probably know yourself?
29 A. It is a detailed letter.
31
1 104 Q. So I mean he is a man of some authority or function.
2 He is not just -- he is pulling a few strings if he
3 is getting all that information he is very near the
4 top of whatever executive structure there is?
5 A. Whatever executive structure there is where?
6 105 Q. In connection with the loans, which is what I am
7 interested in. That is all I am interested in?
8 A. Well, that is not the case. He was not near any
9 particular top but I can't recall this for starters,
10 let me put that on the record. But it would seem
11 that Colm had a view about currency. I don't know
12 what communication he would have had with Dewdrop
13 about that. Just as he discussed matters relating to
14 the loan with me, he would have discussed this.
15 Some kind of a decision in principal as to what
16 should happen with regard to the denomination of the
17 currency of the borrowing would have taken place.
18 106 Q. He had to decide was he going to stay in Deutsch
19 Marks or was he going to go to sterling?
20 A. But I don't recall this, I'm simply trying to
21 interpret.
22 107 Q. I appreciate that but what I am saying to you is, I
23 appreciate you do not recall it, but it appears to
24 mean -- you see there are three possibilities. This
25 letter was meant (a) for you and he was just a
26 convenient way of getting it to you, (b) it was
27 meant for Mr. Meagher personally, that he had some
28 personal interest in it himself, or (c) it was meant
29 for James Crean. There are three possibilities
32
1 about the way that letter was addressed?
2 A. No, there is a fourth. He, just as I, would have
3 been an agent for Colm, in respect of Colm's wishes
4 with regard to this matter.
5 108 Q. But are you saying that he would have conducted some
6 of the negotiations as an agent directly from Colm,
7 not through you now or were you the agent for Colm?
8 A. I would be the agent. Most probably I would have
9 communicated with Colm, I can't recall if Paddy had
10 much communication with him but I think he had some
11 and I would have told Paddy what Colm wanted and
12 asked him would he deal with that for me.
13 109 Q. So in other words, am I to take it this letter was a
14 method of communicating with your brother through
15 you?
16 A. That is what I believe it to be.
17 110 Q. Rather than through Paddy Meagher, rather than
18 through James Crean. That is all I want to try to
19 get at?
20 A. Just say that again, please, Judge o'Leary.
21 111 Q. Can I take it that this letter was, on the balance
22 of probability, sent to Mr. Meagher, because you
23 were the person that needed to be informed as the
24 agent of your brother?
25 A. I couldn't really say what the intention was in the
26 mind of the author of the letter, what I would say
27 was the process of communication...(INTERJECTION).
28 112 Q. Right, you can tell me that, yes?
29 A. Was that on an issue relating to the loan I would
33
1 have dialogued with Colm. If that involved talking
2 with the administration people in Guinness Mahon
3 about a thing like currency, I would have asked
4 Paddy, probably, to help me with that because I was
5 too busy. That is what, I think, this means, but
6 again, I repeat, I actually do not recall all that.
7 113 Q. Had it anything to do with James Crean?
8 A. Nothing whatever.
9 114 Q. So we can leave that out of the way?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 115 Q. I understand that. That is out of the way. Now the
12 next thing is I just want to know should I consider
13 it a letter addressed to Paddy Meagher as an agent
14 of your brother or a letter addressed to
15 Paddy Meagher as your gofer?
16 A. I think it would be somewhere between the two,
17 probably closer to the later.
18 116 Q. Yes. All I want to do is put it in it's context,
19 that is all. You know, you can tell me. All right, I
20 understand. Thank you. I don't know anything about
21 this Malmasion, is that anything to do with these
22 other companies?
23 A. Absolutely nothing.
24 117 Q. What is it at all, is it an investment vehicle or
25 what is it?
26 A. Malmaison is a company which was owned by a man
27 called Fred Hilton who was the Managing Director of
28 an engineering company called Carrier Engineering.
29 I was connected on the fringes of carrier
34
1 engineering.
2 118 Q. All right, so. We can leave that to one side for
3 the moment. I don't know whether Ms. Mackey has any
4 questions on it. I have no questions on it.
5 MS. MACKEY: Well, just one.
6 119 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: You can come to it later.
7 I certainly have no
8 questions. Now if you look at the -- I do not intend
9 going into the details of that letter, if you look
10 at 180 (Exhibit 36), you will see that it is a note
11 from College Trustees to Guinness Mahon it is to do
12 with a small amount of funds that they wanted at
13 £1167.00. If you look at the following page, which
14 is unnumbered, I think it is actually 141
15 (Exhibit 37), if I look very carefully at the number
16 down at the end, but it is covered. That really is
17 you, do you see Dewdrop there, it is a lodgement by
18 Dewdrop to a Cayman Trust Company. Do you see that.
19 You see, in fact, I do not think really it is of
20 much relevance at all. I think it is only the fees
21 being paid and I mean it was paid to College
22 Trustees and they had Cayman accounts, I do not
23 think really it reflects anything one way or the
24 other. But it is just for the sake of completeness I
25 am not reading anything into it. But you see down at
26 the last entry there is from Dewdrop, but I think
27 all that is is Dewdrop making a lodgment to the
28 people that were providing the service. That was
29 College Trustees and they happened to be making it
35
1 to an account which had a Cayman connection. But
2 that really is nothing to do with the person who was
3 lodging the money. It is in there only for the sake
4 of completeness. If you look at the next page 183
5 (Exhibit 38), 14th January 1986. Do you remember the
6 circumstances in 1986?
7 A. I remember something about it. There was a placing
8 to take place, in connection with the acquisition by
9 Crean, a placing of -- an issue, rather, an issue of
10 new, I think it was ordinary shares on loan stock,
11 to be carried out by Crean in connection with the
12 funding of an acquisition in the US, a company
13 called Freezer Queen Limited, which was located in
14 Buffalo. This letter here relates to seeking
15 funding for Colm to enable him to take up some of
16 that new issue.
17 120 Q. Okay and the brother you are referring to there is
18 Colm?
19 A. Yes .
20 121 Q. Mr. McLoughlin, do you see the date on that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 122 Q. January 1986?
23 A. Yes .
24 123 Q. If I have understood the process to date that we
25 have gone through?
26 A. Yes .
27 124 Q. There was a borrowing by Selima, which was a Cayman
28 company and the whole purpose of my questioning is
29 to find out who owns Selima. That borrowing was
36
1 transferred to Montoire?
2 A. Yes, right.
3 125 Q. It might not have been the intention but it seems to
4 have been that. Even if you left out that stage it
5 is really not significant to the point. It was then
6 taken up by Dewdrop, all right? In between, Dewdrop
7 also acquired additional shares, in Creans?
8 A. Yes .
9 126 Q. Which I think were a rights issue or something like
10 that. All this process commenced in 1984, May 1984.
11 This is January 1986. This is the first time, in
12 any document, anywhere throughout that year and a
13 half that your brother is mentioned?
14 A. Yes .
15 127 Q. Now have you any comment to make on that?
16 A. No.
17 128 Q. Did Guinness Mahon know that the borrowing was for
18 your brother?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 129 Q. How is it that in any of the files, there is no
21 reference of any kind to your brother for a year and
22 a half?
23 A. Most of the.
24 130 Q. Then there is lots of references to your brother?
25 A. Most of the material...(INTERJECTION)
26 131 Q. Then there is lots of references to your brother?
27 A. Most of the material that we see here is Guinness
28 Mahon material and it would appear from that that
29 they are dealing with Dewdrop or Montoire or Selima
37
1 or whoever it is, as a borrower and all the
2 documentation relates to that and does not involve
3 the shareholder. It would appear like that from
4 looking at this file. This is a document from me and
5 I am coming up and making a presentation to G&M and
6 seeking additional borrowings and it was natural
7 that I would say what the position was, as I did all
8 along accept that there is no...(INTERJECTION)
9 132 Q. Mr. McLoughlin, I am not criticising the fact that
10 you said it?
11 A. Sure.
12 133 Q. I think it is to your credit that you said it?
13 A. Yes .
14 134 Q. Forget that. That is to your credit. What I am
15 saying is that for the previous year and a half,
16 when there are a number of references even to
17 guarantees by you and to repayments by you, there is
18 no one individual note that this business was being
19 carried out for and on behalf of your brother. That
20 is extraordinary?
21 A. Well I would make two comments about that. The first
22 is that all of the material is Guinness Mahon
23 material. It would appear that their practice in
24 relation to a facility to a company like Selima,
25 Dewdrop or Montoire is to deal with Selima, Dewdrop
26 or Montoire without referring to the shareholder. In
27 relation to the issue of communication on the loan,
28 in relation to the issue of a guarantee, for
29 example, make no mistake about it, Guinness Mahon
38
1 would not have lent to my brother if I had not
2 introduced him and asked them to do so. I was the
3 person that had a relationship with them for ten
4 years. They didn't know him. So in terms of
5 looking at the credit, from a risk point of view,
6 they would have been looking to me as the party to
7 talk to. Therefore, if they were looking for a
8 guarantee, for example, it is not surprising that I
9 would be the person that they would talk to. The
10 only references here to the shareholder at all are
11 here by myself, there is no reference the
12 shareholder whomsoever he might be, on the part of
13 Guinness Mahon. So I don't see anything strange
14 about that.
15 135 Q. I see. I have heard what you said. Now we are
16 going to take a break, if you do not mind for about
17 five or ten minutes and I think there is tea or
18 coffee there if you would like to have it.
19 A. Thank you.
20 136 Q. Thank you very much. You can keep the file. You
21 can look at the rest of the file. There is nothing
22 in it that is anything magical. There is nothing
23 magical in the file. They are all routine documents.
24 We will go out.
25
26 A SHORT ADJOURNMENT
27
28
29
39
1 AFTER THE SHORT ADJOURNMENT THE INTERVIEW CONTINUED
2 AS FOLLOWS
4 137 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: We were at the document of
5 24th January 1986. Are
6 you sure, Mr. McLoughlin, that the brother to whom
7 you refer there was Colm and not Phelim?
8 A. One hundred percent.
9 138 Q. One hundred percent. Who am I to tell you about your
10 brothers. There is a document then which follows
11 from that which I think, it would be fair to say,
12 has a certain passing similarity to the way in which
13 a note to John Furze was set out. It is on page 184
14 (Exhibit 39). I want to make it clear,
15 Mr. McLoughlin, I am not concerned with the
16 governance of James Crean, it is a matter of no
17 concern to me, but I am only interested in these
18 things insofar as and to the extent that they
19 impinge on the on the quest, today's quest and
20 today's quest relates to who owns the actual shares
21 or who was the beneficial owner of the shares which
22 commenced at Selima. So I am looking at this
23 document only in that context and it appears to me
24 to be a very strange document for a person in a
25 company to write about a proposed borrowing of a
26 person external to the company, in advance of the
27 information becoming public. I am not interested in
28 the events of the information becoming public, part
29 of it, that is not the purpose of my question.
40
1 Accept that it is, if it is genuinely for your
2 brother are you not giving the bankers information,
3 as your brother's agent, which is very strange
4 information to give about what the company is going
5 to do, for example?
6 A. I cannot see that, Judge O'Leary.
7 139 Q. Can you see the thrust of what I am saying. You
8 might not agree with it?
9 A. I know what you are saying but I can't find any
10 agreement with it.
11 140 Q. You cannot find anything to do with that?
12 A. No.
13 141 Q. Well if you look at the first page of it:
14 "In the next few days Crean will be

announcing an agreement."
15
16 Now I know they either had announced the agreement
17 or they had not. If they had not a person who was
18 external to the company getting that information, it
19 is not the kind of information that you, as an
20 honest and honourable and careful Managing Director,
21 of a public owned company would give to me as a
22 third party. In a few days I will be making an
23 announcement. The company will be making an
24 announcement. Again I am only interested in the
25 context of who owns the shares. That is my only
26 interest?
27 A. Unless that, I was confident, that you would not run
28 and around disclosing it to every Tom, Dick and
29 Harry.
1 142 Q. But the disclosure to me might cause me to go away
2 and do things buy or sell shares, as the case may
3 be, and you would be conscious that you would not do
4 that, particularly if I was an investor in your
5 company already?
6 A. Are you talking about my communication here now, to
7 Guinness Mahon?
8 143 Q. Yes, I am precisely, I am talking about page 185?
9 A. Well, I cannot say what my thinking or mind set on
10 that issue was at the time. I can't even say that I
11 addressed it. But looking back at it in retrospect,
12 I think it is reasonable to assume that I would
13 regard, if I did think about this, communication
14 with a reputable bank like Guinness Mahon to be a
15 confidential communication. Every time you talk to
16 your bank with regard to a matter in Crean, we talk
17 to our bank, we don't every time we talk to them
18 say: Now remember this is confidential. It actually
19 is par for the course, it is the basis upon which
20 communication with your bank is undertaken.
21 144 Q. I understand, yes, of course, but I am not talking
22 about that. I am talking about a communication to
23 your brother, because you were acting -- this
24 information was not information being conveyed to
25 the bank, it was information being conveyed to the
26 bank as agent for your brother?
27 A. You are talking about the fact that I would have
28 told my brother about this matter.
29 145 Q. Yes, effectively by saying: I am telling your bank?
42
1 A. Well, again I can't see what the problem is there,
2 unless I thought that my brother would run around
3 telling somebody. There was not any question of him
4 dealing prior to an announcement. There was no
5 insider legislation, at that time, anyway.
6 146 Q. I am not interested in the legislation, as such. I
7 am really only interested in whether it is a kind of
8 thing you would do for your brother or you would do
9 for yourself is really what I am interested in?
10 A. I think that in relation, in my experience, in
11 relation to a matter like this matter, a large body
12 of people, a very large body of people, knew about
13 this project, knew that it was on the way and there
14 was no way that we got everybody to sign a
15 confidentiality agreement, it was just business
16 practice in those days that if you communicated on a
17 matter like that that it was regarded as
18 confidential.
19 147 Q. If you look at page 187 (Exhibit 39), there is
20 paragraphs. There is a subparagraph 7 of that memo.
21 It sets out, for your brother's benefit. I don't
22 mean just for your bank's benefit, but for the
23 brother's benefit what the company policy towards
24 loan stock is?
25 A. What is wrong with that? The very document which
26 would be released a few days later would spell out
27 that the redemption date was 1995. So what is wrong
28 about telling him about this a few days before hand
29 unless he is going to misuse it in some way. You can
43
1 take it, although I don't recall having any
2 discussion about this or even reflecting on it. You
3 can take it that if I did address it, at the time, I
4 would have been very, very confident that my brother
5 would not, in any way, abuse the information to the
6 detriment of the company.
7 148 Q. I understand that. Thank you very much. You might
8 looks at page 193 (Exhibit 40).
9 A. Yes?
10 149 Q. Now that puts the position quite clearly. This is a
11 file note which is to do with the proposal which
12 they have got, dated 4th January. Somebody inside
13 in Guinness Mahon says it is MCK, that is
14 Maurice O'Kelly, somebody says well, we will do a
15 file note on the position. You see what they have
16 done, Ray McLoughlin, RMC, James Crean PLC, present
17 position. Under Ray McLoughlin/James Crean PLC, he
18 has three borrowings: Connolly, Malmaison, which I
19 am not interested in at all, at the moment anyway, I
20 am just not interested in it, but Dewdrop
21 Investments, under your name, under your borrowing?
22 A. Well, I can say something about that. It is a
23 standard part of the credit due diligence with any
24 credit committee, that in relation to any facility,
25 in a bank, that they look at the connection, every
26 facility that there is any connection with, in
27 relation to whatever one they might be reviewing, in
28 order to determine as part of the risk assessment
29 process, if there is anything about these linkages,
44
1 which cause them to be concerned about the risk. The
2 connections necessary for this to happen are very,
3 very oblique and I can say this with some authority
4 because for many years I have received presentations
5 with regard to this very issue whilst on the Board
6 of Allied Irish Banks. In this case here, these were
7 all things with had some connection with me of some
8 kind. If you take the Gerry Connolly one, for
9 example, that was an actual loan to him from
10 Guinness Mahon, guaranteed by Crean, in connection
11 with our involvement called IIS. It had nothing to
12 do with me accept insofar as...(INTERJECTION)
13 150 Q. It had to do with Creans?
14 A. Sure.
15 151 Q. It was guaranteed by Creans, because the heading is
16 Ray McLoughlin/James Crean?
17 A. Okay, but insofar as we are talking about the first
18 part of that heading myself and saying that the
19 Gerry Connolly had nothing to do with me other than
20 to the extent that I was Managing Director of Crean.
21 The Malmaison company was a company that I had no
22 shareholding in, wasn't a Director of, wasn't
23 standing over the borrowings. That had nothing to
24 do with me in financial terms either. Dewdrop, I
25 have already told you. So there is nothing
26 extraordinary about this kind of note appearing in a
27 bank file. It is standard procedure. They are all
28 connected facilities of any kind are reviewed as
29 part of a credit risk. So I wasn't surprised to see

1 that really. I have seen it in lots of other
2 places.
3 152 Q. Dewdrop was the company that you refused to give a
4 guarantee for?
5 A. Well, Dewdrop is a company that I didn't give a
6 guarantee for. I did say earlier that I don't
7 recall there ever having been discussion with me
8 about it.
9 153 Q. All right. You did not give a guarantee. So
10 specifically they were looking for a guarantee, if
11 only by internal memo, you did not give it and they
12 are still saying it is something to do with you?
13 A. Hang on a tick now. First of all, the only point
14 where asking me for a guarantee with regard to
15 Dewdrop arose is back at those two letters to
16 Pat O'Dwyer. All the facility letters that I have
17 seen in this document since then and indeed on my
18 review of the file earlier, show no reference
19 whatever to the question of a guarantee. I think
20 you can take it that the guarantee was something
21 that Pat O'Dwyer came up with and was outside the
22 box of any discussions I had had with
23 Maurice O'Kelly and my guess is, but I don't recall
24 it, that it was killed off when I spoke with
25 Maurice O'Kelly about it, back in 1984. So the fact
26 of the guarantee, I can't see is particularly
27 relevant, in relation to this. It long since is
28 gone, at this stage. Now there is no doubt about it,
29 Dewdrop is something they would have seen me as
46
1 connected with. Not only that, the philosophy at
2 Guinness Mahon was such, at the time, that I'm the
3 person they would be looking to, to see them through
4 this if any problem arose either by delivering on
5 the Crean side or otherwise. So to me there is no
6 mystery about this file note.
7 154 Q. I see. The next is an internal document, page 195,
8 to deal with Malmaison, really, it is matter I have
9 no particular question to ask you on. Similarly
10 196, I have no particular question to ask you on.
11 197 is a note of the Dewdrop Investments new
12 facility. 27th February 1986, page 200, is more
13 loan facilities for Dewdrop. I wonder would you turn
14 to pages 224 (Exhibit 41). Do you remember that,
15 224. They should be in more or less the right
16 order. It is a note to Martin Keane.
17 A. Yes.
18 155 Q. Could you explain the circumstances of that?
19 A. First of all, it is nothing whatever to do with
20 Dewdrop or Selima or Montoire. That relates to a
21 sale of shares by myself and the intention, at a
22 point in time, that the sale would be to my brother,
23 Colm, which intention was cancelled, just before the
24 transaction was completed and that led to a
25 complicated mess in Guinness Mahon because it got a
26 whole lot of things wrong which they subsequently
27 corrected but obviously I will talk about it, if you
28 want me to. But it is completely unconnected with
29 Dewdrop, Selima and Montoire, and completely
47
1 unconnected also with the purchasers of Crean shares
2 and the funding for them that we have been talking
3 about here.
4 156 Q. I should have asked you earlier on, your brother
5 Phelim, what does he do for a living?
6 A. He is President of the Irish Rugby Union Exiles and
7 he spends about 80 percent of his time at that.
8 About 20 percent of his time he sows and sells
9 Christmas trees. He operates gaming machines. He
10 was, at one stage, primarily involved in cigarette
11 vending machines.
12 157 Q. He is involved in general buying and selling?
13 A. He has sort of semi-retired.
14 158 Q. Is he older or younger than you?
15 A. He is two years younger than I am.
16 159 Q. And Colm, what does Colm do?
17 A. Colm's primary job is as head of the Dubai duty free
18 operation, which has been an outstanding success
19 having achieved accolades wide and far, over the
20 past twenty years. He has several other
21 responsibilities as well. He is used by the Dubai
22 Government, to spear head the promotion of Dubai
23 through various sponsorship which are carried out by
24 Dubai Duty Free, he sponsors races on behalf of
25 Sheik Mohammed. He brought an ATP tennis event to
26 Dubai and manages and controls it. It has been
27 voted as the best on the ATP Tour apart from the
28 Majors. He runs a club in Dubai which is owned by
29 the Government in the city of Dubai, called the
48
1 Aviation Club, which is a one million square foot
2 club with multi facilities in it. He is known for
3 having implanted in the middle of that what is
4 called an Irish village, which is a replica of an
5 Irish pub and village, which has been hugely
6 successful and is the basis for this particular club
7 washing it's face. He is involved in the promoting
8 of some marketing, a certain degree of horse racing
9 there. He has been involved also in the snooker
10 classic in Dubai. Generally a range of things which
11 have to do with promotion of Dubai as a separate
12 activity from really the Dubai Duty Free.
13 160 Q. Yes, I understand. Grand, thank you. Well if you
14 tell me that Phelim's involvement is to do with
15 buying and selling shares of your own which are
16 nothing to do with Montoire or any of the associate
17 companies, I have no interest in him?
18 A. Absolutely nothing.
19 161 Q. It is not a matter which concerns me. You might go
20 to page 244 (Exhibit 42). This is another letter to
21 Mr. Meagher and is about Montoire. Is Mr. Meagher
22 still working for James Crean?
23 A. He is retired.
24 162 Q. Where does he live?
25 A. He lives in Dublin here in Cross Avenue.
26 163 Q. Do you know his address, do you?
27 A. I do, indeed.
28 164 Q. You might give that to your solicitor in due course.
29 Do you remember this letter?
49
1 A. No, I don't.
2 165 Q. Do you remember anything about it?
3 A. No. A lot of the -- most of the material on this
4 file I would not actually remember but I could put
5 them in context, some of them I could.
6 166 Q. During the course of this investigation we have got
7 from the Irish Permanent, who are now the owners of
8 Guinness Mahon Ireland, on page 328 (Exhibit 43) and
9 only page 328 (Exhibit 43) for the moment. You do
10 not have it there, I will have to give you this
11 separately. It is not really -- there is nothing
12 magical about the document. It is a three page
13 document. It is in fact it is more, there are quite
14 a number of pages but really one page is relevant to
15 you. If you read the front of the -- have you given
16 Mr. McLoughlin that?
17 MR. SLEVIN: No.
18 167 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Give him page 328. Just
19 that document. The reason
20 I cannot give you the other ones is that there is a
21 whole list of names that have nothing at all to do
22 with you; do you understand?
23 A. Yes.
24 168 Q. You can keep that document. You can take it, we
25 have received evidence from Guinness Mahon that the
26 word's "suitably secured" or "adequately secured"
27 had a particular meaning, at that time. At the time
28 that we are investigating. It meant that a loan was
29 granted to an individual or a company and that that
50
1 loan was backed by money outside the jurisdiction.
2 Sometimes quite infrequently, in fact, it was the
3 north of Ireland. That was quite infrequent. It
4 was much more frequently one of the Channel Islands
5 or Cayman. Your name appears on that list,
6 Mr. McLoughlin, as having a borrowing in 1987 of
7 £77,600 from Guinness Mahon?
8 A. Yes .
9 169 Q. First of all, I can show your lawyers the list,
10 there is no difficulty. I do not want to actually
11 physically show you the list because there are
12 dozens upon dozens of names on it which are of no
13 relevance to you which your lawyers are perfectly
14 entitled to see. Do you remember having a borrowing
15 from Guinness Mahon, at that time?
16 A. Of £77,600?
17 170 Q. £77,600?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 171 Q. You do. The fact that there was a borrowing is
20 established. Was it backed by money elsewhere?
21 A. No, it was not.
22 172 Q. It was not, okay. Was it backed by any security
23 outside the state?
24 A. No.
25 173 Q. Have you any reason, can you give me any reason why
26 it should be noted by them to be "suitably secured"?
27 A. No.
28 174 Q. Did you have money backing that borrowing in the
29 Cayman Islands?
1 A. No.
2 175 Q. Or the Channel Islands?
3 A. No.
4 176 Q. Could I explain to you why I am asking you about the
5 Channel Islands because on one reading it might not
6 have anything to do with us but I think it is only
7 fair to say it to you that the system operating by
8 the Channel Island company, College Trustees, was
9 that where they had got money from an Irish
10 resident, in the 1980's, they channelled that money
11 through the Cayman Islands back to Dublin. So all
12 those people even though they might not have
13 realised it, were dealing with the company we are
14 investigating. Do you understand the reason I am
15 asking you that?
16 A. Yes .
17 177 Q. If it was the North of Ireland back to back it has
18 nothing to do with me, I am not concerned with it at
19 all.
20 A. Can I ask you Judge O'Leary, if you have available
21 to you correspondence that took place between Irish
22 Permanent Building Society and ourselves in relation
23 to that matter?
24 178 Q. No?
25 A. You do not have it. We addressed this issue.
26 179 Q. But it is my intention to get that correspondence?
27 A. Yes .
28 180 Q. Mr. McLoughlin, since we are on that, why did you
29 not give us the documents that we asked you for?
52
1 A. What documents.
2 181 Q. The documents we asked you for in a letter. You know
3 the documents we are talking about. Most of the
4 documents that you had got from Irish Permanent
5 yourself. Why did you not give them to us, Selima
6 documents ?
7 A. Is this back in February?
8 182 Q. Yes?
9 A. I think the answer to that, Judge O'Leary, is that
10 it did not occur to me that you were talking about
11 what I would have received from Guinness Mahon. I
12 made the assumption, clearly a loose assumption that
13 you were asking me for any separate documents I
14 would have in my own files. I would mention to you
15 that I was about to go into hospital then for a hip
16 operation, having been for nine months on two
17 crutches without sleep. So I might not have been as
18 focused on this issue as I usually would be. But
19 that is the assumption that I made for better or
20 worse and it didn't occur to me that you would have
21 been talking about the Guinness Mahon material. I
22 assumed that is Guinness Mahon material.
23 183 Q. But I do not necessarily -- I mean I hope I have all
24 the stuff from Guinness Mahon, but I cannot
25 guarantee that I have all the stuff from Guinness
26 mahon and I specifically asked you for any
27 documents ?
28 A. Well, we can give you everything we have and I
29 regret that that happened but it did happen in that

1 particular way.
2 184 Q. If you let us have the copies of the correspondence
3 which you had with Irish Permanent on this fact, it
4 will not be necessary for me to go to the Irish
5 Permanent then.
6 MR. SHIPSEY: Just to be clear the
7 correspondence that we had
8 was not in connection with Selima, it is connection
9 with what you are talking about now, namely whether
10 there was back to back deposits.
11 JUDGE O'LEARY: I understand. But it is
12 one of the issues which we
13 are interested in.
14 MR. SHIPSEY: Yes. Just in relation to
15 Selima, all we have in
16 relation to Selima, on my instructions, are what we
17 got from Guinness Mahon. We will show you the file
18 we got from them.
19 JUDGE O'LEARY: Is it the same as what I
20 have shown you
21 MR. SHIPSEY: It is exactly the same as
22 what you have shown us
23 JUDGE O'LEARY: Is there anything
24 different?
25 A. No, it seems to be exactly the same.
26 185 Q. Would you check it and if there is anything
27 different would you sent it to us?
28 A. I will, Judge.
29 186 Q. If there is not anything different would you confirm
54
1 in writing that there is not anything different.
2 MR. SHIPSEY: Sure.
3 187 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Ms. Mackey reminds me of a
4 problem that we have come
5 across sometimes, and I am not saying it refers to
6 you because I don't know, that when people had
7 deposits outside the jurisdiction, they were
8 sometimes used as backing facilities by Guinness
9 Mahon without apparent authority because we have
10 honourable people coming in and swearing to us and
11 we accept that. Would it be possible that there were
12 other deposits that they used without your authority
13 outside the jurisdiction?
14 A. I think it is impossible. I don't know how that
15 situation arose but I'm very clear that there was no
16 question of any other security. The man who
17 actually made that loan is Martin Keane and I
18 discussed it with him when Irish Permanent raised
19 this matter two years ago and he confirmed his
20 recollection that no additional security was given.
21 188 Q. But did you have deposits outside the jurisdiction?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 189 Q. You did not. You know now when I say you I mean you
24 or, you know?
25 A. Any parties connected with me?
26 190 Q. Parties connected with you. I do not necessarily
27 mean you. You are confirming that you do not?
28 A. I am.
29 191 Q. Is Colm's wife's name Breda?
55
1 A. Yes .
2 192 Q. Do you know anything about a payment made to them
3 from an Ansbacher company, I am using that now in a
4 slightly, it is actually Hamilton Ross that is the
5 name of the company. A payment made to them in
6 1993?
7 A. No.
8 193 Q. Of ST£135,000?
9 A. To Breda.
10 194 Q. To Colm and Breda McLoughlin?
11 A. No.
12 195 Q. Did it come from funds at your disposal?
13 A. I don't know anything about that.
14 196 Q. You do not know nothing about it?
15 A. No.
16 197 Q. No, I do not intend to show the document to
17 Mr. McLoughlin. If it is nothing to do with him, I
18 should properly ask his brother about it. I just
19 have to first of all find out is it anything to do
20 with him?
21 A. No.
22 198 Q. It is page 272, in fact, but I am not going to -- if
23 Mr. McLoughlin says it is nothing to do with him
24 then I will not show him the document. Did you
25 discuss this matter with your brother, obviously you
26 had certain discussions with him?
27 A. Yes, would you ask me that question again.
28 199 Q. Did you discuss these chain of events with your
29 brother, giving rise to this correspondence from
56
1 him?
2 A. Briefly, he is in Brazil at the moment and I had a
3 belief discussion with him. But I did have a
4 discussion with him about this about two years ago.
5 200 Q. You see it is just that you have given us a
6 document. This puts me a slightly awkward position
7 that you have given me a document, presumably with
8 the authority of your brother because otherwise you
9 would not have given to me. It was obviously given
10 for that purpose. The nett effect of which is that
11 I would have to find that he is a client of
12 Ansbacher and name him in the report accordingly. Of
13 course, I will give him an opportunity of coming
14 talking to us. Of course, I will give him that
15 opportunity. Whether that is possible or not, I
16 don't know, but I just want to make it clear that I
17 want to get it straight from you. Have you your
18 brother's authority to give us this document?
19 A. You mean that letter (Exhibit 44)?
20 201 Q. Yes?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 202 Q. Poinciana Fund, do you know anything about Poinciana
23 Fund, I do not mean about your business with them,
24 forget that for the moment. Do you know anything
25 about Poinciana Fund as such?
26 A. Absolutely not. I have read about it in the papers
27 a few times, but I wouldn't say that I have taken
28 anything away from that reading, any detailed
29 knowledge of it. I just know it is a Des Traynor

1 company.
2 203 Q. It is a Trust really. It is a Trust with certain
3 companies?
4 A. Yes?
5 204 Q. It is a trust with strong Ansbacher connections.
6 You can take it that it was established with strong
7 Ansbacher connections. Could you just for the
8 record I know you have put it on paper and that is
9 very helpful indeed and we appreciate that,
10 Mr. McLoughlin. Could you explain to me how you got
11 involved with that aspect of the matter?
12 A. Yes. We launched a rights issue in April of 1994.
13 It was a very big rights issue by our standards 62.8
14 million. Beyond the limit of what was thought
15 possible at the time. Our borrowings built up for
16 various reasons in the proceeding years, so we had a
17 shot at going full whack. Despite a lot of
18 marketing effort, we found that not all of the
19 rights were either taken up or sold at the end of
20 the 21 day period. Normally when that happens the
21 unsold rights fall back to the underwriters unless
22 the brokers can manage to place it at the end. It
23 is normal if that happens is that the brokers have a
24 day and a half or two to place the rump. In this
25 situation there was £21 million unplaced, at the end
26 of the 21 minute period and comprising approximately
27 £5 million ordinary shares and £16 million of loan
28 stock. We anticipated in the last few days that this
29 was going to happen because the efforts to get it
58
1 all away, during the rights issue period, were
2 clearly not going to be sufficient and Davy's, as
3 brokers to the company, together with myself as the
4 company attempted to place that rump in the final
5 days of the right's issue and in the day or day and
6 a half afterwards. The placing of a rump, at the
7 end of a right's issue, is something that must be
8 done in total, when you place a bit of it with an
9 Investor, it has to be conditional on it all being
10 placed.
12 A. Davy's were failing to get it away and I was brought
13 into the frame to see if I could go to the
14 Tony O'Reillys and so forth, of this world, to see
15 if some of that stock could be placed with private
16 investors and I did make a few attempts. I spoke
17 with Des Traynor about it. Somebody suggested to me
18 that he had discretionary funds under his control,
19 which I had not known and I spoke with
20 him...(INTERJECTION).
21 206 Q. Which you had not known, is it?
22 A. I had not ever heard that he had had, that he was a
23 manager of discretionary funds but he was in that
24 business. He made very positive noises about being
25 able to place, there was a residual £5 million of
26 loan stock we couldn't get away, about being able to
27 place that with clients of his.
28 207 Q. Was the remaining £16 million having conditionally
29 been placed?
59
1 A. Conditionally placed.
2 208 Q. I understand, yes?
3 A. Without going into the minute by minute detail, a
4 point was reached, close to the end, where he said
5 he couldn't get it done before the target time,
6 which was end of 14th April, which was two days
7 after the end of the right's issue. I asked my
8 brother Colm if he would make a short-term loan
9 available so that Des Traynor could take up the
10 stock and then place it on or sell it on to his
11 clients shortly afterwards. He had expressed very
12 high confidence that he would get it done within a
13 few weeks. That is what led to the loan from my
14 brother to the Poinciana Fund. Unfortunately
15 Des Traynor died shortly afterwards before he had
16 placed the stock with clients and as a result the
17 needle became stuck in terms of placing the stock
18 with clients of his. So that is the heart of the
19 matter.
20 209 Q. Ultimately then, was the £5 million concluded in
21 terms of -- I mean Did Creans get their £5 million?
22 A. They did. I can give you a letter from Davy's to
23 Allied Irish who were seller...(INTERJECTION).
24 210 Q. I am not conce4rned with that, if you tell me they
25 did?
26 A. Confirming, yes, on the 14th.
27 211 Q. If you tell me that they did, I will accept that. So
28 then we had a situation where who was the owner of
29 the £5 loan stock the day after that?
60
1 A. Well, there is a little twist to the tail towards
2 the end which is that at the very last minute, when
3 all seemed lost IVI took up £3 million of loan stock
4 which up to then they had not been persuaded to do.
5 So that, in fact, there was only a £2 million
6 residual and Poinciana took up the £2 million
7 residual. The intention was that Des Traynor would
8 place it on with some clients.
10 A. So your question was what happened to
11 the...(INTERJECTION)
12 213 Q. So the day after this happened the 15th of whatever
13 the month was, you say that you had to do it by the
14 14th of whatever month?
15 A. April.
16 214 Q. So by the 15th of April who owned the residual £2
17 million loan stock?
18 A. All right, Poinciana Fund.
19 215 Q. Poinciana Fund. How did your brother impact with
20 that. Had he guaranteed the fund or something?
21 A. He had lent the money to Poinciana Fund on a short
22 term basis to enable it to buy the loan stock
23 pending of the replacement of it by Poinciana with
24 clients.
25 216 Q. So he did not however own the loan stock himself?
26 A. No.
27 217 Q. He did not own it?
28 A. No.
29 218 Q. All right. He did not own it. So Poinciana owned

1 it?
2 A. Yes .
3 MR. SHIPSEY: I am sorry, just the
4 company was Knighton, I
5 think. Colm mentions it in Point 5 of his letter,
6 that that loan was provided by Knighton, a company
7 owned by me.
8 219 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: That is grand. I am not
9 really concerned about
10 that but that is grand. So Knighton loaned £2
11 million and Poinciana used that. But whose was the
12 risk then on 16th. You see I might have an interest
13 in Poinciana, that is my interest really. I have an
14 interest in Poinciana, that is the reality of the
15 situation. So again we will move on by a day or two
16 and we have this situation where who had the risk
17 now on the loan stock?
18 A. Poinciana.
19 220 Q. Poinciana had the risk?
20 A. Yes .
21 221 Q. They had. What ultimately happened to that loan
22 stock?
23 A. Crean made an offer to all loan stock holders to
24 redeem the loan stock sometime in 1997. I think it
25 was about mid 1997 as part of tidying up it's
26 balance sheet and keeping it's bankers happy. At
27 that stage, the share price had dropped
28 substantially so there was no conversion premium
29 available. Every share holder, every loan stock
62
1 holder took up that redemption offer. So, in effect,
2 it was liquidated.
3 222 Q. They got their money back?
4 A. They got their money back, yes.
5 223 Q. They had got interest in the meantime?
6 A. Yes, it was seven percent or seven and a quarter, or
7 something, percent.
8 224 Q. This is where I am interested in it really. That is
9 all very interesting but really it is of limited
10 interest to me. What is of interest to me is that in
11 1997, who were you dealing with. You know I mean
12 James Crean, of course, who were you dealing with in
13 Poinciana?
14 A. You mean as Crean?
15 225 Q. Yes?
16 A. We did not deal with anybody. I happened to know
17 that that stock was held at that time through Payne
18 Weber (sic), a bank in New York, they were nominees
19 for it. I believe I learned that from Davy's. So we
20 didn't have any dealing with Poinciana at all, they
21 were just a loan stockholder. You know, we wouldn't
22 have any individual dealing with any loan stock
23 holder.
24 226 Q. Did you write to them, at some stage, did you have
25 an address for them?
26 A. I would say that there was interest paid every year
27 and then...(INTERJECTION)
28 227 Q. It must have been sent somewhere?
29 A. Yes and there was the offer, and I actually can't
63
1 say that but it was to whoever the registered share
2 loan stock holder on the Register was. I happen to
3 know that was Payne Weber (sic) at some point in the
4 process.
5 228 Q. Yes. What I am interested in, I will tell what my
6 interest with regard to that is. If you were
7 dealing with somebody in Poinciana Fund, at that
8 stage, a name, I would like to know who the name
9 was ?
10 A. We had no dealings with Poinciana Fund.
11 229 Q. None?
12 A. None. There was no reason why we would.
13 230 Q. So you were dealing with Des Traynor and Des Traynor
14 died. That must have been a shock to everybody when
15 Des Traynor died?
16 A. It throw the spanner in the works of what was
17 happening here.
18 231 Q. So the morning after Des traynor died, i do not mean
19 that literally now, but immediately after he died,
20 who in Poinciana Fund would you have contacted?
21 A. I would have had no contact with anyone. My
22 involvement in this stopped once that rights issue
23 finished and the loan arrangement between Poinciana
24 and Colm's company was complete, well, I wasn't
25 involved in that. By sometime in mid April my
26 connection with all of this stopped.
27 232 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: That is fine. Thank you
28 very much, Mr. McLoughlin.
29 Have you questions to ask Mr. McLoughlin?

1 MS. MACKEY: No.
2 JUDGE O'LEARY: Have you any questions,
3 Mr. Cush?
4 233 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes.
5 (TO WITNESS)
6 Mr. McLoughlin, just in relation to placing the rump
7 and you coming into that activity and bringing the
8 Tony O'Reilly's of this world, that was presumably a
9 fraught enough time for you personally; was it?
10 A. It was a pretty difficult because there was a high
11 prospect that the £21 million would revert to the
12 underwriters and at that time that is regarded as a
13 disaster, as you probably know and we looked upon it
14 as that at that time.
15 234 Q. So someone then told you that Mr. Traynor might have
16 discretionary funds under his control, he might have
17 been managing them, I think, you said?
18 A. Somebody suggested that he was worth approaching on
19 the basis that he may have had or may have
20 discretionary powers with regard to funds under his
21 control.
22 235 Q. You did approach him and it turned out that he
23 expressed confidence about being able to help you
24 out of your difficulty?
25 A. Yes, what he said he would do is he was confident
26 that he had clients who would take this up. It was
27 guaranteed by the redemption back stop and the seven
28 percent interest and he expressed a high level of
29 interest in it on behalf of some clients.
65
1 236 Q. Did it come as a surprise to you to learn that
2 Mr. Traynor managed these funds and had these
3 clients ?
4 A. I think, the first thing I would say is that when I
5 got talking to him I found that he didn't have
6 discretionary powers because he had to persuade the
7 clients to do that this, to believe that he could.
8 So once I learned that I'm not sure if I was
9 surprised or not surprised but I wouldn't have been
10 at the forefront of my agenda at the time. The
11 forefront of my agenda was getting this done by hook
12 or by crook.
13 237 Q. Of course, but he spoke to you of having clients?
14 A. Yes .
15 238 Q. Clients with significant amounts of money?
16 A. Well, I couldn't really say that but it is implicit
17 in the discussions I had with him that he was
18 talking about clients who were sufficient to take up
19 £5 million pounds of loan stock.
20 239 Q. Yes and who was it then that was able to tell you
21 that Mr. Traynor might have that function?
22 A. Who was it that what?
23 240 Q. Who told you that Mr. Traynor might be worth
24 approaching?
25 A. I can't recall that. You know there were a number
26 of people scratching around trying to find names we
27 might approach. It could have been somebody in
28 Davy's. I can't be sure about that. If I had thought
29 myself that he was a possibility or it occurred to
66
1 me I would have approached him anyway. But my
2 belief is that somebody mentioned it to me and I
3 followed it up.
4 241 Q. Well can we take it that you did not know prior to
5 being told by somebody that Mr. Traynor had clients?
6 A. What would I have known about Des Traynor in 1994.
7 I really would have had a most amorphous and vague
8 notion that he was Chairman of the bank in the
9 Cayman Islands and I really wouldn't have known
10 anything about the detail of that.
11 242 Q. You cannot remember who might have told you?
12 A. No, I can't. But the impression that is in my
13 memory is not that somebody said with specific clear
14 knowledge that he was a man that could do this, but
15 that it was a suggestion amoungst dozens of
16 suggestions. I remember Larry Goodman being
17 suggested, for example, at the time and I don't know
18 Larry Goodman at all. So I really do not think
19 there is any great significance in the suggestion
20 that was made to me. It was just, you know, people
21 thinking of guys who might just help out in the
22 crisis that existed at the time.
23 243 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Where did you meet him?
24 A. Des Traynor.
25 244 Q. Yes?
26 A. I first met him, Judge O'Leary in 1973. In 1973 I
27 carried out a reverse take over of Creans through a
28 private company of mine called Shelbourne. Guinness
29 Mahon were financial, corporate finance advisors to
67
1 the Board of Crean at the time and it was in that
2 regard that I know...(INTERJECTION).
3 245 Q. No, I think you misinterpreted what I say. Where
4 did you meet him for the purpose of discussing this
5 with him, physically did you meet him?
6 A. I think I met him in his office in Fitzwilliam.
7 246 Q. 42 Fitzwilliam Square?
8 A. I wouldn't remember the address but you know the
9 cement road stone offices. I think I might have met
10 him also in Berkley Court or Shelbourne. I think
11 maybe the Berkley Court. I think I might have met
12 him twice, at that time. I am nearly sure on one
13 occasion was in CRH.
14 247 Q. Yes I see. Once in the CRH office?
15 A. I'm nearly sure of that, yes.
16 248 Q. MR. CUSH: Just a different matter,
17 Mr. McLoughlin, you
18 mentioned that you spoke to your brother, Colm,
19 about, broadly speaking, these matters approximately
20 two years ago. In what circumstances did that
21 occur?
22 A. It was when I first received the file for G&M. It
23 may not have been two years ago, it feels like that.
24 I reviewed them and naturally discussed it with him
25 as his companies would figure very prominently in
26 that file.
27 249 Q. Has he seen the file?
28 A. No.
29 250 Q. You have not sent it to him?
68
1 A. No.
2 251 Q. Have you sent him extracts from it?
3 A. No.
4 252 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Did he get it from GMI
5 himself; would you say?
6 A. I am 95 percent sure he did not. 99 percent sure he
7 did not.
8 253 Q. MR. CUSH: To your knowledge, does he
9 have any records of his
10 own in relation to any of this?
11 A. I don't know what his position would be with regards
12 to records.
13 254 Q. MR. CUSH: Thank you very much.
14 255 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: What would you say to the
15 following statement: GMI
16 who circulated all their clients with appropriate
17 documentation, when this thing began to become
18 relevant, sent the documentation to you and not to
19 your brother. What does that say about what they
20 believe?
21 A. I did not like that and I had some vigorous inter
22 changes with Guinness & Mahon about that, at the
23 time. It was a case of new people on the block not
24 knowing what the position was. Indeed in Guinness &
25 Mahon, over many years, I have heard people say that
26 the left arm didn't know what the right arm was
27 doing and this is another example of it. So I think
28 my reaction on it is well known. I was extremely
29 unhappy about it.
69
1 256 Q. But they never sent it to your brother. They never
2 thought apparently that your brother was their
3 client, because they never sent it to him?
4 A. Well that is a fact. I regard that, as you know, an
5 error on the part of the bank.
6 257 Q. I understand that. Thank you very much indeed.
7 A. Am I keeping this.
8 258 Q. You keep that. There is no difficulty about that.
9 It would be useful for you to go through it and if
10 there is any documents, which are not in that, which
11 you have, would you send them into us?
12 A. I will.
13 259 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Thank you.
14
15 THE INTERVIEW THEN CONCLUDED
16
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18
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22
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70
to Q\
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. MAURICE O'KELLY
UNDER OATH
ON MONDAY, 10TH APRIL 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. MAURICE O'KELLY
Represented by: MR. BRIAN BOHAN
BOHAN SOLICITORS
31a WESTLAND SQUARE
DUBLIN 2
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MR. M. O'KELLY MS. MACKEY 6 - 34
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 35 - 37
MS. MACKEY 38 - 39
2 10TH APRIL 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Good morning.
5 MR. O'KELLY: Morning Judge.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is
7 Declan Costello and on my
8 right is Ms. Mackey. We are two of the Inspectors
9 who were appointed, as you know, by The High Court.
10 MR. O'KELLY: Sure.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you
12 Mr. O'Kelly that this is
13 not a Court. It is not a Tribunal. It is an
14 interview. Ms. Mackey and myself are going to ask
15 you some questions.
16 MR. O'KELLY: Right.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I want to make it clear
18 however that if you have
19 any problem about the questions that we ask you,
20 that you would like to get advice on, you may
21 consult your solicitor and we will stop asking you
22 questions.
23
24 Similarly, if your solicitor has any problem with
25 questions that we might ask he can ask us to stop
26 and consult with you.
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: The evidence will be taken
29 under oath Mr. O'Kelly and
4
1 I will ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to administer
2 the oath to you.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. O'Kelly, I am going to
5 ask Ms. Mackey to ask you
6 some questions.
7 A. Sure.
9 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
10 MS. MACKEY
11
12 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. O'Kelly, good morning?
13 A. Morning.
14 2 Q. You provided us with an agreed statement, an unsworn
15 statement, in writing. I think the simplest thing
16 would be simply to go through that?
17 A. Sure.
18 3 Q. And perhaps clarify some of the matters that you
19 have set out in this?
20 A. Sure.
21 4 Q. However, before I do that, for the record, I would
22 just like to get a brief history of your own career
23 and especially your career in Guinness & Mahon. As
24 I understand it from your statement you joined
25 Guinness & Mahon in 1971?
26 A. Yes.
28 A. 1971, yes, that is correct.
29 6 Q. Prior to that you were?
6
1 A. Prior to that I qualified as a chartered accountant
2 in 1955.
3 7 Q. In 1955?
4 A. Yes, 1955.
5 8 Q. Yes?
6 A. When I went to -- I went away to Hong Kong.
7 9 Q. Yes?
8 A. My partner there died and I took over the firm,
9 which I then sold in 1967, 49% of it.
10 10 Q. This is in Hong Kong?
11 A. In Hong Kong.
12 11 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I returned to Ireland in 1960 and in 1962 I sold
14 the balance of my firm in Hong Kong.
15 12 Q. Yes?
16 A. And set up a firm in Dublin, Merrion Square, called
17 Commercial Investment Advisers.
18 13 Q. Commercial Investment Advisers?
19 A. Yes, and that was a company that specialised in the
20 mergers and acquisitions field.
21 14 Q. Right?
22 A. And venture capital field.
23 15 Q. Yes. That was in...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. That company...(INTERJECTION).
25 16 Q. 1961 you say?
26 A. 1963.
27 17 Q. 1963?
28 A. Yes. In 1971 that firm was taken over by
29 Guinness & Mahon. The connection there was
7
1 with Des Traynor who had become Managing Director
2 of G & M and he and I were Articled Clerks before
3 we became chartered accountants. We were in the
4 same firm as Articled Clerks.
5 18 Q. In Haughey Boland?
6 A. Haughey Boland, that is right.
7 19 Q. Yes?
8 A. We were both Articled Clerks under Charles Haughey.
9 20 Q. Right?
10 A. Now, my friendship with Des dated from that date,
11 1951 approximately 1952.
12 21 Q. Around 19?
13 A. 1951/52 I joined...(INTERJECTION).
14 22 Q. Haughey Boland?
15 A. Haughey Boland as an Articled Clerk and that was
16 the time I met Des Traynor for the first time.
17 23 Q. Right. It was through your acquaintanceship
18 with Des Traynor that the take over of Commercial
19 Investment Advisers?
20 A. Yes.
21 24 Q. By Guinness & Mahon?
22 A. Yes.
23 25 Q. Came about, is that right?
24 A. Yes. It wouldn't have been a very wise move from my
25 point of view because I certainly would have made a
26 lot more money if I continued to own Commercial
27 Investment Advisersright.
28 A. And continued to practice.
29 26 Q. Yes?
8
1 A. But it was through my friendship with Des.
2 27 Q. With Des?
3 A. That the acquisition of CIA by G & M in 1971.
4 28 Q. Right?
5 A. I joined as Joint Managing Director then in
6 Guinness & Mahon.
7 29 Q. You joined Guinness & Mahon?
8 A. Yes.
9 30 Q. As Joint Managing Director?
10 A. Joint Managing Director with responsibility really
11 for corporate finance.
12 31 Q. Yes?
13 A. That particular side of the bank activities.
14 32 Q. You continued on in Guinness and Mahon then until?
15 A. I resigned from G & M on 30th June 1985.
16 33 Q. 1985. What position did you hold at that stage?
17 A. In G & M?
18 34 Q. Yes?
19 A. Just the same. Just Joint Managing Director.
20 35 Q. Joint Managing Director, that is what you were all
21 the time?
22 A. All the time, yes.
23 36 Q. That is fine. Thank you Mr. O'Kelly. Getting back
24 then to your statement and to what you have just
25 told me, your friendship with Mr. Traynor then dates
26 from the early 1950's?
27 A. Yes, we were in Article's together.
28 37 Q. Yes?
29 A. Yes.
9
1 38 Q. In your statement -- do you have a copy of your
2 statement with you, that you would like to refer to
3 perhaps (Exhibit 1)?
4 A. Yes .
5 39 Q. If you see paragraph 5 of your statement there
6 Mr. O'Kelly?
7 A. Yes .
8 40 Q. At the bottom of the first page?
9 A. Right.
10 41 Q. You say:
11 "All savings I had and proceeds of

sale of shares including (Atlantic
12 Resources) were given to Mr. Traynor
in Guinness & Mahon. I had joined
13 Guinness & Mahon in 1971. I had
certain moneys at that time and this
14 together with subsequent receipts
were lodged with Guinness & Mahon
15 through Mr. Traynor."
16
17 A. Yes .
18 42 Q. If you would tell us Mr. O'Kelly how this first came
19 about? What your first...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. Well, the first -- going back in time I think when
21 G & M bought Commercial Investment Advisers in 1971.
22 43 Q. Yes?
23 A. I owned approximately 70% of the share capital.
24 44 Q. Yes?
25 A. At that time the company was owned by Des Traynor,
26 the late Eamonn Andrews and the late
27 Christopher Gore Grimes, in equal percentages.
28 45 Q. Yes?
29 A. So, very roughly it was sort of 70/30.

1 46 Q. Yes?
2 A. And the proceeds of that sale, my share of the
3 proceeds of that sale -- I am not quite sure -- was
4 in an account which would be like a professional
5 firm's account, rather like partners in a legal firm
6 or partners in an accounting firm.
7 47 Q. Yes?
8 A. If you like an account to my credit.
9 48 Q. Yes?
10 A. With G & M which was paid...(INTERJECTION).
11 49 Q. In Guinness & Mahon?
12 A. Yes.
13 50 Q. Yes?
14 A. And to that account was lodged my salary from G & M
15 and I wrote my own personal -- no -- yes, to that
16 account and then there was a personal account from
17 which I paid bills and that kind of thing.
18 51 Q. Yes?
19 A. Yes, and there was debits to that account.
20 52 Q. Yes?
21 A. So, that was the nature of that account, which may
22 seem terribly casual. It may seem very casual to
23 you but I can't explain that other...(INTERJECTION).
24 53 Q. Yes. However, that account was in Guinness & Mahon?
25 A. Yes.
27 A. Yes.
28 55 Q. That was an ordinary account in Guinness & Mahon?
29 A. Well, it was an ordinary -- it was an ordinary
11
1 account. It was an ordinary account in the context
2 of I presume that other people had an account like
3 that.
4 56 Q. Yes?
5 A. But I mean in my case it was in the nature of
6 an account which was a drawing account as well,
7 you know.
8 57 Q. Yes?
9 A. It was rather like if you were a partner in a legal
10 firm.
11 58 Q. Yes?
12 A. Or an accountancy firm.
13 59 Q. Yes. However, in relation to the monies that you
14 gave to Mr. Traynor, when did that arrangement begin
15 and how did that come about?
16 A. That would have been the balance that was due to me
17 from my sale of Commercial Investment Advisers, yes.
18 A. There was an amount due to me.
19 60 Q. Yes?
20 A. Which I can't remember now what it was.
21 61 Q. Yes?
22 A. At the time.
23 62 Q. No, that does not matter?
24 A. But it was probably around £4 0,000/30,000, you know.
25 63 Q. Yes?
26 A. Which does not sound very much.
27 64 Q. Yes. What happened about that? Did Mr. Traynor
28 suggest to you that it be invested or did you ask
29 him?
12
1 A. No, no. Nothing ever happened about it. It was
2 just there. It is just my current account if you
3 like.
4 65 Q. However, may be I am not understanding exactly what
5 you are saying?
6 A. Yes .
7 66 Q. You say here at paragraph 5?
8 A. Right.
9 67 Q.
"I had certain moneys at that time and
10 this together with subsequent receipts
were lodged with Guinness & Mahon
11 through Mr. Traynor."
12
13 When you say "through Mr. Traynor" what do you mean
14 there?
15 A. Well, I think that like -- I am not sure
16 whether that would be correct. I mean you
17 are really talking about the opening of an account
18 in Guinness & Mahon.
19 68 Q. Yes?
20 A. Whether Des Traynor opened the account for me.
21 69 Q. Right?
22 A. Or whether I opened the account after I joined
23 G & M, I am not sure.
24 70 Q. Obviously, what we are concerned here today about is
25 to find out your connection with "Ansbacher" Cayman
26 Limited or "the company" as we refer to it?
27 A. Yes .
28 71 Q. I think we might cut this thing short by saying that
29 it appears that you acknowledge that you had, in
13
1 fact, deposits with "Ansbacher" Cayman, is that
2 correct?
3 A. Well, I don't know what you would mean by having
4 deposits with "Ansbacher". I never opened a deposit
5 account with "Ansbacher" that I can recall.
6 72 Q. It appears Mr. O'Kelly that in your interview
7 with Mr. Gerry Ryan, the authorised officer to
8 the Minister?
9 A. Yes .
10 73 Q. As a result of which we were appointed?
11 A. Yes .
12 74 Q. That you acknowledged to him that you did have an
13 account with "Ansbacher" Cayman, is that correct?
14 A. I mean I obviously had because I have been told that
15 I had.
16 75 Q. This is what we are trying to get at?
17 A. But I mean I never signed.
18 76 Q. No?
19 A. Put it this way, I never signed a piece of paper
20 saying I wished to have an account.
21 77 Q. Right?
22 A. With "Ansbacher" and I never authorised the transfer
23 of any money to "Ansbacher". I
24 mean...(INTERJECTION).
25 78 Q. What we are trying to ascertain today is, how it
26 came about. Did Mr. Traynor at any stage offer to
27 invest money for you?
28 A. No.
29 79 Q. He did not?
1 A. No.
2 80 Q. Did...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. And I wasn't in receipt of any interest that I know
4 of.
5 81 Q. We will come to that. However, just getting back to
6 the opening of this account, do you say now that the
7 account that you had with Guinness & Mahon is the
8 account that some how or another subsequently was
9 transformed into the "Ansbacher" account?
10 A. Well, all I am saying is that it would appear that
11 an account in my name, which would represent a sort
12 of personal account.
13 82 Q. Yes?
14 A. Was transferred or opened in "Ansbacher" for me.
15 83 Q. Right?
16 A. But I mean...(INTERJECTION).
17 84 Q. You say in your statement here at paragraph three?
18 A. Right.
19 85 Q.
"It appears from my statements from
20 Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited that I
may have had the benefit of a "back
21 to back" facility."
22
23 Do you have statements from "Ansbacher" Cayman
24 Limited now?
25 A. Well, back to back facility, that implies that I had
26 a loan.
27 86 Q. No, no. I am not interested just for the moment in
28 the back to back facility. It is simply your
29 statements. You say here you have statements from

1 "Ansbacher" Cayman. Do you have them in your
2 possession?
3 MR. BOHAN: Will you just give me a
4 few seconds, I may have
5 the them here? I am not sure I brought them from
6 the office. These came late.
7 87 Q. MS. MACKEY: While your solicitor is
8 looking for those
9 Mr. O'Kelly, where did you obtain these statements
10 from?
11 A. I am sure I obtained the statements from
12 Padraig Collery I would think after Des died.
13 88 Q. Right?
14 A. Des Traynor died in...(INTERJECTION).
15 89 Q. 1994?
16 A. 1994.
17 90 Q. Yes?
18 A. And it was May.
19 91 Q. Yes?
20 A. And I presume Padraig gave them to in after that
21 date.
22 92 Q. Right. (Same handed) (Exhibit 4). Mr. O'Kelly
23 these statements begin in 1992. Do you have any
24 earlier statements?
25 A. Do I have any earlier statements.
26 93 Q. Yes?
27 A. No, I don't have any earlier statements.
28 94 Q. Do you have any other documentation provided to you
29 by Mr. Collery in relation to this account?
16
1 A. By Mr. Collery?
2 95 Q. Yes?
3 A. No, I don't, no.
4 96 Q. Do you have any documentation which Mr. Traynor
5 provided to you?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 97 Q. During the time that you had this account
8 Mr. O'Kelly did Mr. Traynor -- did you receive any
9 statements from Guinness & Mahon about it?
10 A. About my current account?
11 98 Q. Yes?
12 A. No.
13 99 Q. The account that you are talking about here?
14 A. No.
15 100 Q. That you opened?
16 A. No.
17 101 Q. This, you say, as you understood it at the time, was
18 an account in Guinness & Mahon. Would you not
19 normally have received a statement?
20 A. From my knowledge. From my bank, yes, I am sure I
21 would.
22 102 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 103 Q. How did you know at any given moment what state your
25 account was in?
26 A. I just always knew it was in the black. I mean I
27 know this seems extraordinary to you, and I know I
28 am a chartered accountant, and I know I am supposed
29 to be conscious of looking after money better, but I
17
1 didn't really need it at the time. Like the salary
2 which I earned while I was in G & M, and then the --
3 when I set up in private practice as a non-executive
4 Director the income fees etc. were more than
5 adequate, you know.
6 104 Q. Just getting back again to your statement, you say
7 at paragraph five, if you would just look at it
8 again Mr. O'Kelly, you start off that paragraph by
9 saying:
10
"All savings I had and proceeds of
11 sale of shares including (Atlantic
Resources) were given to Mr. Traynor
12 in Guinness & Mahon."
13
14 That on the face of it appears to say that whatever
15 monies you were lodging you gave to Mr. Traynor, is
16 that the way you went about it?
17 A. Had already given him. I mean that was when I
18 joined G & M in 1971.
19 105 Q. You gave them to Mr. Traynor?
20 A. Yes, the balance that I had at that particular time.
21 106 Q. I see?
22 A. Which came from the sale of Commercial Investment
23 Advisers understand.
24 A. Plus the sale of my interest in Hong Kong.
25 107 Q. Yes?
26 A. So, I had a certain amount of money.
27 108 Q. Did you give them to Mr. Traynor personally?
28 A. Well, sure I gave him -- I gave Des a cheque. Well,
29 he would have given me a cheque I suppose for my 70%
18
1 interest in...(INTERJECTION).
2 109 Q. However, what you had you gave to him, is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 110 Q. What was he doing with that as you understood it?
6 A. Well, I presume it was on deposit in G & M. I
7 mean...(INTERJECTION).
8 111 Q. Mr. O'Kelly, you say you presume it. However, what
9 did you understand at that time?
10 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).
11 112 Q. That you were giving him the money for?
12 A. Again, I presumed. I presumed. I mean that is what
13 I did presume.
14 113 Q. When you handed him the money what did you ask him
15 to do?
16 A. Well, I presumed it was just on deposit in G & M or
17 on an account in G & M. I mean...(INTERJECTION).
18 114 Q. What did you ask him to do Mr. O'Kelly?
19 A. I didn't ask him to do anything.
20 115 Q. You just gave him money?
21 A. And he would have given me some money, wouldn't he,
22 because I sold CIA to G & M? So, he would have
23 given me some money. I would have had money which I
24 gave to him. I had an account with the Bank Of
25 Ireland in Terenure.
26 116 Q. You gave him all your savings, it says here, you
27 say?
28 A. Yes.
29 117 Q. Yes?
19
1 A. That I had at that stage.
2 118 Q. Yes?
3 A. Which were...(INTERJECTION).
4 119 Q. What did you ask him to do with those savings?
5 A. I didn't ask him to do anything.
6 120 Q. What did he tell you he was doing with them?
7 A. I don't think he ever told me what he was doing with
8 them. I mean I never...(INTERJECTION).
9 121 Q. Did you think he was keeping them?
10 A. I am not suggesting...(INTERJECTION).
11 122 Q. For himself personally?
12 A. No, no. I thought they were in the bank in an
13 account in G & M. That is what I assumed.
14 123 Q. Can you remember the conversation you had with
15 Mr. Traynor when you handed him over all your
16 savings?
17 A. No, I certainly can't.
18 124 Q. You cannot?
19 A. No.
20 125 Q. You also say in paragraph 5:
21
"I had certain moneys at that time..."
22
23 You have explained what they are,
24 "...and this together with

subsequent receipts were lodged with
25 Guinness & Mahon through Mr. Traynor."
26
27 What do you mean by "Subsequent receipts"
28 Mr. O'Kelly?
29 A. Well, I would have obtained I presume -- like I made
20
1 money on the shares mentioned above, the Atlantic
2 Resources shares.
3 126 Q. Yes?
4 A. And I can't remember what I made but it
5 was...(INTERJECTION).
6 127 Q. The amount we are not concerned with here?
7 A. Yes, but it was something like £190,000 and I paid
8 tax. After my illness my son paid my income tax.
9 128 Q. Right?
10 A. So, then they were the monies that I am referring
11 to.
12 129 Q. However, what are the subsequent receipts?
13 A. They would have been the salary from G & M, I
14 presume.
15 130 Q. Your salary from Guinness & Mahon was going into
16 this account, is that correct?
17 A. This current account, yes.
18 131 Q. When you say it was going into the current account,
19 what happened with your salary cheques? Were they
20 lodged directly?
21 A. To my current account?
22 132 Q. Or were they given to you?
23 A. I am sure I had a current account with G&M. Of
24 course I had.
25 133 Q. Are we talking about two separate accounts here or
26 one account?
27 A. Well, I am not quite sure but we are probably
28 talking about two accounts. One would be my current
29 account, one would be the balance. I mean I am not
21
1 quite sure. Maybe it was all one account.
2 134 Q. One, you say, might have been your current account
3 and the other might have been the balance?
4 A. It could be.
5 135 Q. By the balance do you mean the balance of the sale
6 that was due to you from Commercial Investment
7 Advisers?
8 A. Yes, plus another company that I owned called
9 Simpsons.
10 136 Q. Yes?
11 A. Which I sold in 1982.
12 137 Q. You think that that might have been in a separate
13 account from your current account?
14 A. Actually, you know, I don't know but I assume so.
15 138 Q. Why would you assume that?
16 A. Well, I would be lodging every month a salary
17 cheque. It would have been transferred to this
18 account by G & M.
19 139 Q. Was the salary cheque that was lodged every
20 month lodged directly by Guinness & Mahon, is
21 that correct, or was it given to you?
22 A. Well, it wasn't given to me. So, I mean it was
23 either transferred. It was either lodged to that
24 current account in G & M or it was transfer to my
25 current account in Bank Of Ireland in Terenure.
26 140 Q. Did you get statements regarding your current
27 account in Guinness & Mahon, regular statements?
28 A. No.
22
1 A. No.
2 142 Q. Guinness & Mahon did not provide you with any
3 statements?
4 A. No.
5 143 Q. When Mr. Traynor died what did you do then in regard
6 to your account?
7 A. When Mr. Traynor died?
8 144 Q. Yes?
9 A. Well, I understood Padraig Collery transferred the
10 balance.
11 145 Q. Just not what you understood, but what did you do?
12 A. I didn't do anything.
13 146 Q. You did not make any enquiries about your account?
14 A. No, Padraig Collery -- I mean Padraig Collery must
15 have contacted me soon, quite soon, after that date.
16 147 Q. Padraig Collery contacted you?
17 A. I am sure, yes.
18 148 Q. Why would Padraig Collery contact you about your
19 Guinness & Mahon account?
20 A. I presume because he was -- he had responsibility
21 for it within the Bank.
22 149 Q. Padraig Collery, I think, was not in the Bank
23 in 1994, is that not correct?
24 A. I am not sure. I am not sure when he left.
25 150 Q. As we understand it Padraig Collery left in 1989,
26 left Guinness & Mahon in 1989?
27 A. 1989, yes.
28 151 Q. Mr. Traynor died in 1994?
29 A. Right.
23
1 152 Q. It is quite clear that if Mr. Collery contacted you
2 at that time you could not have thought it was in
3 connection with Guinness & Mahon business, is that
4 not correct?
5 A. Well, it was. It was about my account.
6 153 Q. What would Mr. Collery, who was no longer working
7 with Guinness & Mahon, have to do with your account?
8 A. Well, he was obviously looking after it. Des or
9 Niall said he was looking after it.
10 154 Q. Would you not find that very strange, Mr. O'Kelly?
11 A. I do find it strange, yes, when I look back.
12 155 Q. Did you not at the time?
13 A. No, at the time. At the time that Des died I was
14 (A) upset with Des, and (B) I just had the stroke
15 about a year and a half at that stage and I don't
16 think I was perhaps handling things too clearly or
17 carefully.
18 156 Q. Mr. O'Kelly, from these statements here, that you
19 have given us, it is clear that interest accrued on
20 your account from time to time. It appears here on
21 the statement?
22 A. Right.
23 157 Q. You acknowledge that I am sure?
24 A. Sure.
25 158 Q. It is here on the face of the statements (Exhibit
26 4) ?
27 A. Yes .
28 159 Q. Did you declare that interest to The Revenue
29 Commissioners ?
1 A. That I don't know.
3 A. No.
4 161 Q. You evidence to us is that you do not know whether
5 you did or not?
6 A. The evidence is that I don't know.
7 162 Q. Right?
8 A. Yes. I don't know whether it is significant,
9 whether the interest was significant or not.
10 MR. BOHAN: We will be clearing that
11 up with The Revenue
12 Commissioners.
13 MS. MACKEY: Yes. However, it is a
14 matter of fact for us.
15 MR. BOHAN: Yes.
16 163 Q. MS. MACKEY: You made certain
17 withdrawals Mr. O'Kelly
18 from this account?
19 A. Yes.
20 164 Q. You refer to one here at paragraph 4 of your
21 statement:
22 "The initial withdrawal of £55,000 I do

not remember..."?
23
24 A. Yes.
25 165 Q.
"... and it may have been arranged
26 through Mr. Traynor while I
requested any other withdrawals
27 through Mr. Collery"?
28
29 A. Yes.
25
1 166 Q. The withdrawals that you requested through
2 Mr. Collery, did you request those before
3 Mr. Traynor's death or afterwards?
4 A. They would have varied I think because my children
5 were getting married. I think I gave a load of -- I
6 have five boys and one daughter and I gave the
7 boys some money on their marriage. I think it was
8 £30,000 each.
9 167 Q. Was that before Mr. Traynor's death, before 1994?
10 A. Well, they got married on different dates.
11 168 Q. However, were some...(INTERJECTION)?
12 A. You know we are going back to -- yes, we are going
13 back to like 1988 and 1990.
14 169 Q. What I am trying to ascertain is whether you made
15 withdrawals prior to Mr. Traynor's death?
16 A. Both.
17 170 Q. Both?
18 A. Before and after.
19 171 Q. Those that you made before Mr. Traynor's death, did
20 you make them all through Mr. Collery except for
21 this initial withdrawal, or did you make some of
22 them through Mr. Traynor, or can you remember?
23 A. I would say they are all through Padraig. Maybe the
24 first one might have been -- I might have said to
25 Des when Michael got married -- I might have said to
26 Des -- I can't remember really.
27 172 Q. Could you tell me how -- what you did when you
28 required a withdrawal?
29 A. I just dialled -- told Padraig or Des that -- to

1 transfer money to me, to Bank Of Ireland in
2 Terenure.
3 173 Q. To the Bank Of Ireland in Terenure?
4 A. Yes.
5 174 Q. Now...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. Maybe it was (inaudible) bank and I transferred it
7 to Terenure.
8 175 Q. Yes. Mr. O'Kelly, can I ask you to look at a
9 document. It is page 19 (Exhibit 2) (Same handed)?
10 A. Thanks.
11 176 Q. Actually, perhaps, page 21 as well. No, sorry,
12 Mary. Page 19 for the moment. You see that letter
13 Mr. O'Kelly?
14 A. Yes.
15 177 Q. Which is headed, the heading is slightly blocked out
16 there in the photocopy:
17 "Hamilton Ross Co. Limited, PO Box 887,

Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands"?
18
19 A. Yes.
20 178 Q. I am sorry. The one I am referring to you, the one
21 I am asking you to look at, does not have that
22 heading on it in the photocopy. However, you can
23 see at the bottom it is signed:
24 "For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED."
25
26 Do you see that?
27 A. Yes.
28 179 Q. It is addressed to Ronan Redmond of Irish
29 Intercontinental Bank Limited?
27
1 A. Yes.
2 180 Q. If you look at that letter, which is dated 7th
3 October 1993, it says:
4 "Dear Ronan, Could you please arrange

to let us have for collection a
5 Sterling cheque for Stg.£38,085.88
payable to THE MIDLAND BANK and debit
6 the cost to Hamilton Ross Account..."?
8 A. Yes.
9 181 Q. At the bottom there is a reference:
10
"DPC..."
11
12 Which we understand to be Dermot Patrick Collery,
13 "...Please debit A/A55."
14
15 And then in handwriting:
16 "Cheque posted to MEOK at home..."
17
18 A. Yes.
19 182 Q.
". . .13/10/93"
20
21 A. Right, yes.
22 183 Q. Is that a withdrawal that you recollect receiving?
23 A. Well, I don't recollect receiving it but I mean
24 obviously -- it is obviously related to one of the
25 boys getting married.
26 184 Q. Right?
27 A. And my gift to him.
28 185 Q. To him. Can I pass you another document and this is
29 page 25. (Exhibit 3) (Same Handed)?

28
1 A. Yes.
2 186 Q. This is a letter of the 2nd September 1994. Again,
3 it is signed on behalf of Hamilton Ross Co. Limited
4 and addressed again to Irish Intercontinental Bank?
5 A. Yes.
6 187 Q. With again the reference:
7 "DPC - A/A55"
9 at the bottom?
10 A. Yes.
11 188 Q. This letter asks for Stg.£16,000 to be transferred
12 to The Midland Bank, Poultry and Princess Street,
13 London?
14 A. Yes.
15 189 Q. For credit to the account of M. E. O'Kelly?
16 A. Yes.
17 190 Q. Was that your account in The Midland Bank
18 Mr. O'Kelly?
19 A. I am sure it is, yes. You see The Midland Bank
20 is the -- The Hong Kong & Shanghai Bank took over
21 The Midland Bank.
22 191 Q. You had an account there, with The Hong Kong &
23 Shanghai Bank?
24 A. My account was with The Hong Kong & Shanghai Bank
25 and then they took over The Midland Bank.
26 192 Q. Is that another withdrawal that you would have made
27 at that time?
28 A. I am sure it is, yes.
29 193 Q. Yes?
29
1 A. You see you must remember that around that time.
2 194 Q. Yes?
3 A. 1992/1993 to 1995, that I did resign. I did give up
4 several of my directorships.
5 195 Q. Yes?
6 A. Because of my health at that particular time.
7 196 Q. Yes?
8 A. So, two things happened over that particular period,
9 1993 to 1998. The two significant things, from my
10 personal point of view, were first my stroke.
11 197 Q. Yes?
12 A. And I resigned two or three of my directorships as a
13 result of it.
14 198 Q. Yes?
15 A. And in addition a firm of which I am Chairman in
16 Waterford, Waterford Stanley Limited, the Financial
17 Director lost something like £4.3 million in foreign
18 exchange speculation at that time and there was no
19 dividends in Waterford Stanley for a period of three
20 years. I think it is from 1997 on.
21 199 Q. Mr. O'Kelly, if I — not to interrupt you there?
22 A. Not at all.
23 200 Q. Not to interrupt you there but...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. I am just trying to tell you, explain, why I needed
25 such large amounts that is all.
26 201 Q. Yes. We are not really concerned with the reasons
27 why you needed them?
28 A. Fine.
29 202 Q. Just the fact that, in fact, you made withdrawals?
30
1 A. Sure.
2 203 Q. From this account from time to time?
3 A. Sure.
4 204 Q. It appears that in 1993 your account was transferred
5 from "Ansbacher" to Hamilton Ross & Co. Limited.
6 Are you aware of that?
7 A. No, I wouldn't have been aware of that at the time.
8 205 Q. You were not aware of that?
9 A. I mean -- sorry, I mean I understand how
10 Hamilton Ross came into the picture but I wasn't
11 told it was being transferred there or anything
12 relating to it.
13 206 Q. Yes. Were you aware Mr. O'Kelly that your account
14 was one of the coded accounts in Guinness & Mahon,
15 coded A/A55?
16 A. Well, I am sure I was aware of it but I mean I
17 wouldn't have attached any particular significance
18 to that.
19 207 Q. Yes?
20 A. Like I mean I just thought that was an account
21 number.
22 208 Q. You thought A/A55 was an account number?
23 A. Yes, I mean it wouldn't have registered with me as
24 being peculiar in any way.
25 209 Q. When would you have become aware that
26 was...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. I didn't become aware until...(INTERJECTION).
28 210 Q. An account number?
29 A. I didn't make...(INTERJECTION).
1 211 Q. No, no. When were you -- when did the number A/A55
2 become known to you? Were you aware -- did you know
3 it at the time?
4 A. I don't think it ever became known to me insofar as
5 I never made a note of it or anything but I did
6 become aware of the fact that -- subsequently I
7 heard, it must have been from Padraig Collery or
8 somebody, that I was in an account holder, there was
9 other people in the same account or something.
10 212 Q. You became aware that you were in an account with
11 others?
12 A. There was other people in the same account.
13 213 Q. That other people were in the same account?
14 A. I gather.
15 214 Q. Did Mr. Collery tell you that?
16 A. I think it was. It couldn't have been anybody else
17 I don't think.
18 215 Q. When would that have been?
19 A. I don't know. It must have been around about after
20 Des died. It must have been around about 1995/1996
21 when I became aware of the fact that there was
22 some account, either in G & M or in Cayman, where
23 CJ Haughey and myself and somebody else were in the
24 same account.
25 216 Q. You were aware at that stage that it may have been
26 in Cayman?
27 A. No, I wasn't aware it was in Cayman. I was just
28 aware I was in the same account at CJ and somebody
29 else in 1996 or 1997.
32
1 217 Q. Right. What did you ask Mr. Collery about that when
2 he told you?
3 A. I didn't ask him anything about it. There was
4 nothing to be asked about it.
5 218 Q. Did it not seem strange that you thought your money
6 was in a current account in Guinness & Mahon and now
7 it appeared that it was in a joint account with
8 other persons?
9 A. Not a joint account. It wasn't a joint account. It
10 was just that I was in the same account.
11 219 Q. However, can you explain that to me a little bit?
12 A. I can't explain it to you and if you can explain it
13 to me that would be fine.
14 220 Q. However, you must surely have questioned Mr. Collery
15 about that?
16 A. Well, I asked him how did it arise.
17 221 Q. Yes?
18 A. And he said it was for convenience, something to do
19 with the transfers or something.
20 222 Q. That it was something to do with the transfers?
21 A. Yes, like I can't remember in what words he
22 explained it to me but he had an explanation for it
23 at the time, it was convenient for something or
24 other.
25 223 Q. You cannot remember that now, is that right?
26 A. I don't know what the explanation was.
27 224 Q. If I could summarise Mr. O'Kelly, is it the case
28 that you gave money to Mr. Traynor. This, as I
29 understand it, is a summary of your evidence here
33
1 today: You gave money to Mr. Traynor from about
2 1971 onwards; you were not aware of what he did with
3 it; you did not ask him to do any particular thing;
4 it now appears that that money was on deposit with
5 the company known as "Ansbacher" Cayman Limited; the
6 money earned interest over the years; you do not
7 remember whether you declared that money, the
8 interest, to The Revenue or not; you made certain
9 withdrawals by contacting either Mr. Traynor or
10 Mr. Collery, including Mr. Collery at a time after
11 he had left Guinness & Mahon. Would that be a
12 correct summary of your evidence today?
13 A. Well, with regard to it that it seems very
14 extraordinary for a chartered accountant to behave
15 in this fashion then I would believe -- I would
16 agree that it is a correct summary of the events.
17 225 Q. Very good. I have no further questions Mr. O'Kelly.
18 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. MAURICE O'KELLY BY
19 MS. MACKEY
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
34
1 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
4 226 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just in relation to the
5 payment of tax
6 Mr. O'Kelly, did you look after your own tax affairs
7 or had you an accountant?
8 A. No, they were always looked after by an accountant.
9 227 Q. Who was that? What was his name?
10 A. Well, wait until I see. There was two. There was
11 the auditors to Simpsons, which was a firm that I
12 bought in 1962. It is a printing firm in
13 Dury Street that I bought before I started CIA and I
14 sold it in 1982.
15 228 Q. Can you remember the name of the firm?
16 A. I am just trying to think. It was...(INTERJECTION).
17 229 Q. What was their...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Dodd. Christopher Dodd, Chris Dodd was
19 the...(INTERJECTION).
20 230 Q. Chris Dodd?
21 A. Yes.
22 231 Q. Who else did you have then?
23 A. But it was Dodd something. Grehan Dodd, sorry.
24 232 Q. Yes?
25 A. G-r-e-h-a-n Dodd. He had died.
26 233 Q. Yes?
27 A. Grehan Dodd & Company. They were in O'Connell
28 Street.
29 234 Q. Yes?
35
1 A. And they were the auditors to Simpsons. So, that
2 was my connection with them.
3 235 Q. They were you own personal accountants?
4 A. They -- yes, they looked after my personal tax, yes,
5 until I left G & M in 1985 and I had my offices. I
6 do still have my offices located in Baggot Street,
7 and in the building of a friend of mine called
8 Brendan Sherry, who operates as a chartered
9 accountant. He has a chartered accountancy firm and
10 I transferred my tax in that year to be looked after
11 by the taxation expert in Sherry O'Connor. I am
12 just trying to think of his name for a second.
13 236 Q. Yes?
14 A. Any way that is the name of the firm that looked
15 after it.
16 237 Q. Either then Grehan Dodd or Brendan Sherry's records
17 would show...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Yes, they complete my annual tax returns every time.
19 238 Q. They made your returns?
20 A. Yes .
21 239 Q. They could establish whether or not there was
22 included in your returns any interest you have
23 earned?
24 A. That is correct.
25 240 Q. Have you made enquiries?
26 A. I haven't made enquiries. I don't think it is
27 material. I don't think it is very large now. I
28 mean -- when I say that I mean it may appear very
29 casual or very careless but I don't think the
36
1 interest that I earned would be substantial.
2 241 Q. There as a fairly substantial sum of money to
3 the credit of this account, "Ansbacher" account,
4 in 1992, is there not?
5 A. Yes, I am sure there is. Is there? I can't
6 remember.
7 242 Q. There is?
8 A. Yes.
9 243 Q. A substantial sum?
10 A. Yes.
11 244 Q. And interest would be substantial on that per annum?
12 A. The interest would be substantial, would it?
13 245 Q. What I am asking is, as I understand it, you do not
14 know whether or not you returned those for income
15 tax?
17 246 Q. Have you made enquiries from your accountants?
18 A. No.
19 247 Q. Yes. Very well.
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
37
1 MR. MAURICE O'KELLY WAS RE-EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MS. MACKEY
4 248 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just one other matter
5 Mr. O'Kelly?
6 A. Yes.
7 249 Q. We required you in our letter to you to produce to
8 us all documents in your possession. Now, in fact,
9 just today you produce to us the statements from
10 "Ansbacher". Have you any other documents in you
11 possession whatsoever?
12 A. I am sorry. I thought you had them.
13 MR. BOHAN: Yes, we did get some other
14 documents. There is
15 roughly the same as you have and now, that was my
16 fault and I apologise.
17 MS. MACKEY: We require everything you
18 possess please.
19 MR. BOHAN: I will get it down to you.
20 I apologise for that.
21 MS. MACKEY: Yes. Thank you very much.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We require every document
23 that Mr. O'Kelly has given
24 to you.
25 MR. BOHAN: Yes. I will make sure you
26 get it today.
28 250 Q. MS. MACKEY: Have you written
29 Mr. O'Kelly to "Ansbacher"
38
1 Cayman in connection with your account and asked
2 them for documents?
3 A. No.
4 251 Q. Would you do that please?
5 A. Write to "Ansbacher" in Cayman?
6 252 Q. To "Ansbacher" Cayman and to Hamilton Ross and ask
7 them for any documents that they may have in
8 relation to your account, A/A55?
9 MR. BOHAN: Sorry, we will do that.
10 MS. MACKEY: Thank you.
11 MR. BOHAN: Yes.
13 MS. MACKEY
14
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you Mr. O'Kelly.
16 This evidence given today
17 with be transcribed and we would ask you to come in
18 to sign the transcript of the evidence?
19 A. Sure.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you would like to stay
21 on now and have a cup of
22 coffee you can, you might prefer to leave however.
23 MR. BOHAN: Thank you very much.
24 A. Thank you.
25
27
28
29
a
V\ ^<Ktwlrs£
\XxVuA
\ ^CMQJCSAQJ- ^ O G O
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. MARTIN KEANE
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY, 16TH FEBRUARY 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. MARTIN KEANE
Instructed by: MR. BOYCE SHUBOTHAM
William Fry Solicitors
Fitzwilton House
Wilton Place
Dublin 2.
1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON WEDNESDAY 16TH
2 FEBRUARY 2 000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Good morning, Mr. Keane,
5 my name is Declan Costello
6 and on my right is Ms. Mackey and on my left is
7 Mr. Rowan, as you know we have been appointed
8 inspectors by the High Court. I will ask now our
9 solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to administer the oath to
10 you.
11
12 MR. KEANE, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS
13 FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
14
15 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Keane, I am sure your
16 solicitor has explained to
17 you that we are not a court and we are not a
18 tribunal, we are inspectors appointed by the High
19 Court. We have adopted the practice, which I am
20 sure is a proper practice, that we do not object, in
21 the slightest, to witnesses bringing solicitors or
22 legal advisers with them. If there is a point at
23 which you think a question is one which you should
24 not be required to answer, for one reason, for
25 example that it is not relevant or it is not within
26 the terms of the Court, you can so indicate to me
27 and you can discuss the matter with your solicitor.
28 If your solicitor thinks that we are asking a
29 question which you are not required to answer, he
3
1 can so indicate to me and I will stop and he can
2 talk to you about it. That is how we propose to
3 operate.
5 I should explain, however, whilst we cannot make a
6 ruling as to the admissability, the preparatory of
7 the question, we may have to reach a situation where
8 we regard your decision not to answer the question,
9 for reasons which you consider valid, as amounting
10 to a refusal to answer the question and we would
11 then have to consider having the matter brought
12 before the Court. That is the procedure which will
13 be adopted here today.
14
15 Mr. Keane, it would be helpful if you could briefly
16 indicate firstly to me your professional
17 qualifications and briefly your curriculum vitae in
18 your profession?
19 A. I am a chartered accountant and I qualified as a
20 chartered accountant in 1972, in what is now KPMG,
21 SKC as was it known then.
22 2 Q. Strokes Kennedy Crowley?
23 A. Strokes Kennedy Crowley.
24 3 Q. In when?
25 A. 1972.
26 4 Q. You qualified?
27 A. I qualified and I left SKC in that year and I joined
28 Guinness & Mahon as a junior corporate finance
29 executive. I worked in Guinness & Mahon from 1972

1 until 1988 when I left Guinness & Mahon. Since 1988
2 I have been employed by Ernst & Young, chartered
3 accountants, and my current position there is
4 director of corporate finance services. My career
5 has been in corporate finance, essentially.
6 5 Q. We are concerned now, particularly with the company
7 that is now known as Ansbacher, and we are concerned
8 with obtaining from you assistance as to the
9 services which Ansbacher operated here in Dublin and
10 I particularly want your assistance in relation to
11 the establishment of trusts in Cayman, in respect of
12 which the Ansbacher may have been the trustee or
13 management company and how the whole system was
14 established and how it worked and if you could give
15 us, in considerable detail, your knowledge of it?
16 A. I think it might be helpful to you if I just
17 outlined where roughly, over time, my role was in
18 relation to the whole Ansbacher affair and the
19 various off-shore companies that were subsidiaries
20 of the bank. As I say, I joined the bank in 1972 as
21 a junior corporate finance executive. I had no
22 dealings with any of the off-shore operations of the
23 bank until, I believe, about 1974. At that stage
24 there was, in existence, Guinness & Mahon Cayman
25 Trust, which is now known as Ansbacher (Cayman)
26 Ltd., I understand. There was also in Jersey a
27 company which had been established in 1972 by the
28 name of the Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust Ltd.,
29 which was a trustee company, which I came into
5
1 contact in 1974. I think in 1974 there also had
2 been established in Guernsey a company by the name
3 of Guinness & Mahon Channel Islands Ltd. The
4 background to all of that was, as I understand it,
5 that in 1972 there was changes in the definition of
6 the scheduled territories, which made up the
7 sterling area and my understanding is Cayman went
8 outside the sterling area. Cayman had been the
9 place where Mr. Traynor had established a subsidiary
10 on behalf of the bank, known now as Ansbacher
11 Cayman. It was now not possible for this to be
12 used, except by virtue of exchange control
13 regulations and he set up, I was not involved in the
14 setup of it, a company in Jersey, which was just a
15 pure trust company, by the name of Guinness & Mahon
16 Jersey Trust Ltd. He was assisted in that by
17 someone in the bank at that time, who was also a
18 director of the bank, by the name of Chris Dodd.
19 6 Q. If I could interrupt you, what do you mean by "just
20 a trust company"?
21 A. It wasn't a bank, it was just a trustee company.
22 7 Q. It acted as trustee?
23 A. And company management services.
24 8 Q. Yes .
25 A. The first time I came into contact with any of these
26 entries really was in 1974. Mr. Dodd had left the
27 bank and I believe, I think, in that year
28 Mr. Traynor had suffered a heart attack. Guinness &
29 Mahon Jersey Trust had, at that point, a

1 considerable number of trusts which had been
2 established in the Channel Islands and there were a
3 significant number of companies there as well. At
4 that time Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust didn't have
5 a secretariat, as such, in the Channel Islands. The
6 registered office of the company was at the house of
7 the son of a former client of Mr. Traynor's and I
8 think they used local firms of accountants in Jersey
9 to supply formation services and secretarial type
10 services. So, I, at that stage, was asked by
11 Mr. Traynor to go over, in essentially an
12 administrative role, to look after those companies
13 to make sure the returns were properly filed and to
14 make sure they paid their local taxes. At that
15 stage there were, I can't remember how many now, but
16 a significant number of trusts had been
17 established...(INTERJECTION).
18 9 Q. Approximately how many?
19 A. I would say maybe 25 to 30. At that stage, also,
20 the bank had, in Dublin, a large number of what I
21 would call old trusts of the kind of marriage
22 settlement or will trust nature, some of them which
23 were Irish others which had moved their residence
24 from the UK to Ireland in the ' 60 ' s when capital
25 gains tax came into the UK in the '60s. Guinness &
26 Mahon Executor and Trustee Company, Ireland would
27 have been the trustee to a lot of these settlements.
28 In 1974 capital gains tax was introduced to Ireland
29 in 1974 and a lot of these trusts wished to move
7
1 residence yet again to the Channel Islands, or some
2 suitable jurisdiction for the purposes of avoiding
3 capital gains tax, is my understanding. So that
4 event, Mr. Traynor and Mr. Dodd, I believe, at that
5 time, were in the process of applying for a full
6 banking licence for a company which had been
7 incorporated in Guernsey by the name of Guinness &
8 Mahon Channel Islands Ltd. After Mr. Dodd's
9 departure I was involved in some meetings with
10 directors of the parent bank in London and I think
11 at least one meeting with the financial
12 establishment or regulator in Guernsey. In due
13 course -- the intention was that this would be set
14 up as a full bank in Guernsey which would also carry
15 out trustee services. A banking licence was duly
16 obtained, I believe, in 1974, however subsequent to
17 that there was, I think, a downturn in business, the
18 whole project was reviewed. On the grounds of costs
19 it suddenly looked like being far more expensive to
20 set up in Guernsey than people had originally
21 envisaged and it was decided not to proceed with it.
22 The licence was, I believe, relinquished and handed
23 back to the Guernsey Authorities.
24 10 Q. Do you know when was that?
25 A. I think approximately, end of 1974.
26 11 Q. 1974, as soon as that?
27 A. Yes, it could have been early 1975. So the
28 situation at that point was that there was this
29 demand from the old trusts back in Dublin who were
8
1 seeking a permanent establishment, the bank had a
2 permanent establishment within the sterling area,
3 but off-shore and there were these companies which
4 had been set up in Jersey and trusts which had been
5 previously set up in Jersey which really didn't have
6 any permanent establishment or secretariat to look
7 after to administer them.
9 Among these old trusts were trusts connected to the
10 Guinness family, in that I mean primarily Mr. James
11 Guinness, who was then the Chairman of Guinness &
12 Mahon & Co., which was the parent company of
13 Guinness & Mahon Ltd. I can't remember exactly the
14 sequence of events, but they were very keen to have
15 proper managers in place in one of these places and
16 they came in contact, through some mutual
17 acquaintance, with a Mr. John Lipscombe who ran a
18 trustee company in Guernsey, by the name of
19 Sovereign Management, which was a privately owned
20 trustee company. He had a good reputation and
21 arising from this various meetings that took place
22 in Guernsey and I think subsequently in Dublin with
23 Mr. Traynor. It was decided that Guinness & Mahon
24 in Dublin would establish a subsidiary by the name
25 of College Trustees in Guernsey, which subsidiary
26 would rent some space from Mr. Lipscombe's
27 organisation and entered into a contract with
28 Mr. Lipscombe's organisation to supply management
29 services to these trusts and company management
9
1 services. I believe subsequent to that a lot of the
2 old trusts that were in Dublin, and the trusts that
3 had been established in Jersey were all transferred
4 from Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust and from Guinness
5 & Mahon Executor & Trustee in Dublin to College
6 Trustees as trustee.
7 12 Q. Just so I understand, I think you made it clear,
8 when you say "transferred" you mean that the trustee
9 was changed to College Trustees?
10 A. I think the trustee was changed, may be not in all
11 cases, but in most cases, certainly in the ones
12 where Dublin was a trustee.
13 13 Q. The intention being that the company that would act
14 as trustee would be College Trustee?
15 A. Yes, and would act as the company manager.
16 14 Q. And would also act to manage the trust as well?
17 A. Manage the companies underlying the trust.
18 15 Q. We will come to that later. Just again, I am sure
19 you cannot be definite but just how many companies,
20 old trusts, that were moved from Dublin?
21 A. It is not a large number but they were fairly
22 substantial trusts.
23 16 Q. The numbers weren't large?
24 A. The numbers wouldn't be large, six to ten, they
25 would be very substantial and very heavy from an
26 administrative point of view, they would probably
27 have had investment portfolios and the like.
28 17 Q. Yes. Continue then.
29 A. My role in that period was on the instruction of
10
1 Mr. Traynor to try and -- my role was involved in
2 the organising of all that and the organising of the
3 transfer and looking at the overall -- making sure
4 that the overall administration was up to date and
5 the returns were filed on time.
6 18 Q. You, in fact, were a director of College Trustees,
7 originally?
8 A. At the date of incorporation, purely at
9 incorporation, I checked that and I was not, purely
10 for the purpose of incorporation.
11 19 Q. That explains it. Continue then Mr. Keane.
12 A. That is the point at which all the Channel Islands
13 activities came together under College Trustees
14 which I think was a subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon
15 Channel Islands. So we now had the situation where
16 Guinness & Mahon Dublin owned one hundred percent of
17 Guinness & Mahon Channel Islands, which in turn
18 owned one hundred percent of College Trustees, which
19 had a management arrangement with Sovereign. At
20 that time, most of the client companies that had
21 been set up in Jersey had deposits back in Dublin in
22 the name of the normal -- when I came across it, the
23 normal structure appeared to have been that there
24 was a trust with an underlying company. Most of the
25 trusts that had been set up in Jersey had
26 Christopher Woodward as the settlor, who was the
27 gentleman whose house was used as the registered
28 office, the son of the former client of Mr. Traynor,
29 who was a director of Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust.
11
1 So those companies had deposits back with Guinness &
2 Mahon in Dublin.
3 20 Q. If you just take it a little slowly. You say the
4 trust had underlying companies.
5 A. Yes.
6 21 Q. Was it the trust just owned one hundred shares or
7 something like that of the company?
8 A. Yes.
9 22 Q. All the funds were in the company?
10 A. In the company.
11 23 Q. And the company then managed the funds?
12 A. Yes, the company placed them back on deposit with
13 Dublin.
14 24 Q. That is what I want to get at. Were all the funds
15 placed back in Dublin?
16 A. My recollection is yes.
17 25 Q. In whose name were the funds placed?
18 A. The funds, at that point, my recollection is that
19 the funds were in the name of the individual
20 underlying company.
21 26 Q. The underlying company?
22 A. The underlying company.
23 27 Q. We will come to these later. These were the coded
24 accounts, were they?
25 A. No, at this point they were just X, Y, Z
26 investments, whatever, the actual names of the
27 company.
28 28 Q. Of the company?
29 A. Of the company, yes.
12
1 29 Q. Very well Mr. Woodward was the settlor in all these
2 trusts, was he?
3 A. That is my memory of the ones I came across.
4 30 Q. Did you see who the clients were who instructed
5 Mr. Woodward to be the settlor?
6 A. Not initially, I became aware of some of them as
7 time went on.
8 31 Q. Yes. Were these discretionary trusts?
9 A. My memory is yes.
10 32 Q. You became aware of who the beneficiary was and who
11 was able to give instructions as to how the funds
12 were dealt with?
13 A. I can't exactly say how I became aware from various
14 bits of information.
15 33 Q. If you continue then, Mr. Keane.
16 A. So, I think at point -- some point after that -- I
17 think during that period, which is roughly from
18 about 1974 to I think about 1976, 1975/76 is the
19 period when all this was going on about Guinness &
20 Mahon Channel Islands, the setting up of College. I
21 think some more companies may have been incorporated
22 in Jersey and they may have been added to the trust.
23 I think there was a certain amount of shelf
24 companies that had been formed by Mr. Traynor, so
25 there may have been some companies added to the
26 Jersey stable, if you like.
27 34 Q. What function would they have?
28 A. What function?
29 35 Q. Yes .
13
1 A. They would be for further -- my recollection is that
2 there were a large number of trusts there which were
3 shelf type trusts where they were set up by
4 Mr. Woodward and there may have been companies which
5 were subsequently formed to go with them.
6 36 Q. When you say "shelf", you mean that they were there
7 available for anybody who wanted them, they were not
8 operative?
9 A. Weren't operative, yes.
10 37 Q. That was between 1974 and 1976?
11 A. I think that is my memory, yes. Some more may have
12 been allocated to clients by Mr. Traynor at that
13 time. I think some time around 197 6 Mr. Traynor
14 decided that he was the going to change the system
15 in Dublin in relation to the deposits in the
16 individual companies which were appearing as
17 individual deposits. He instituted a system,
18 whereby from some date around then that they were
19 now coded, still individual deposits on the books of
20 the bank but now known as Guinness & Mahon Channel
21 Islands A, B, C, D, or whatever, some number.
22 38 Q. The name in the company was Guinness & Mahon Channel
23 Islands Ltd. was it?
24 A. Yes .
25 39 Q. That was the name of the depositor?
26 A. In the books of the bank.
27 40 Q. In the books of the bank?
28 A. In the books of the bank, that is my memory, yes. I
29 think it was acting as a nominee really.

1 41 Q. You see there was Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust Ltd
2 and that had gone, more or less, to fund College
3 Trustees?
4 A. That's correct, yes.
5 42 Q. There was Guinness & Mahon Channel Islands Ltd.
6 A. Which was not trading.
7 43 Q. Which was not trading but its name was used?
8 A. Its name was used, yes.
9 44 Q. As the depositor?
10 A. As the depositor. So if we had, let's say 30
11 depositors in different names they now became
12 Guinness & Mahon Channel Islands A, B, C.
13 45 Q. With the code?
14 A. With the code, yes.
15 46 Q. If you continue then.
16 A. I think, what happened after that, some point after
17 that those deposits I think there were some new
18 clients from College Trustees, there were some new
19 clients in College Trustees in that period, in the
20 mid/late '70's College took on new clients which
21 would have been introduced, largely, by Dublin I
22 expect. At some point, I think, around 1979 the
23 bureau system was instituted, I think that is the
24 correct date.
25 47 Q. It may have been instituted, but we have letters
26 from Mr. Lipscombe from the Channel Islands in 1978
27 and also Mr. Furze at the same time?
28 A. That's the start of the bureau system.
29 48 Q. That was the start of the bureau system.

1 A. The bureau system is quite different in the sense
2 that...(INTERJECTION).
3 4 9 Q. You perhaps might describe it to us now?
4 A. My understanding of it, I wasn't involved in the
5 setting up of it, but my understanding of it was
6 that the, whereas previously in the case of the
7 Channel Islands there were a whole series in the
8 bank of individual deposits, albeit coded A, B, C,
9 D, they were all amalgamated into one deposit, and
10 that, in the ordinary books of the bank, was the
11 only deposit that was visible and the arrangement,
12 which had been entered into with College, was that
13 the tracking of those deposits, the underlying
14 deposits making up the large deposit, would be
15 maintained on a separate system by Dublin for
16 College Trustees and I believe similarly for Cayman,
17 and what has subsequently been known as the bureau
18 system, to which only, I think, at that time it may
19 have been Mr. Ru Leonard who was the manager of the
20 accounts department in the late '70's, he was
21 subsequently succeeded by Mr. Collery. The only
22 people who had access to the bureau system were
23 either Mr. Leonard, at the appropriate time, or
24 subsequently Mr. Collery or Mr. Traynor. I had no
25 access to it.
26 50 Q. Before that, however, you seemed to have been the
27 person who had access because we have a note on a
28 ledger saying that information can be sought from
29 you?
16
1 A. Yes, Mr. Ryan, the authorised officer, brought that
2 up with me. I am somewhat surprised by it and I
3 have racked my brain on it since then and I think
4 what it in effect was saying was that, in effect,
5 outside of Mr. Leonard, or whoever controlled the
6 accounts department, or Mr. Traynor, the only other
7 person who could have access to those accounts was
8 me.
9 51 Q. Whatever the note said, you in fact had access?
10 A. To the Channel Islands, to the GMCI ones?
11 52 Q. Yes?
12 A. I had access. At that stage I knew who some of the
13 clients were. In a lot of cases it was a refer to
14 Mr. Traynor, situation.
15 53 Q. And that altered when the bureau system was
16 established and it was Mr. Leonard and later
17 Mr. Collery?
18 A. That's right.
19 54 Q. If you continue then.
20 A. We are now at about 1978/79, at that stage my memory
21 is that Mr. Lipscombe started to deal directly with
22 most of the Irish clients, by and large. I do not
23 think my recollection is, from my awareness anyway,
24 that there were probably very few new clients going
25 into College around that time, it doesn't mean there
26 were not, but to my knowledge there were not, but
27 there may have been direct dealings between
28 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Lipscombe or directly between
29 Mr. Lipscombe and...(INTERJECTION).

1 55 Q. At this stage, 1979, what would your estimate be of
2 the number of clients that were involved, the number
3 of separate deposits in the bureau system?
4 A. It is very difficult, but maybe 50.
5 56 Q. What do you mean to say Mr. Lipscombe was dealing
6 directly with the Irish clients?
7 A. I think at that stage from Mr. Lipscombe -- from my
8 own personal point of view I had no wish to be
9 dealing, if people had affairs which were with
10 College Trustees I preferred that they were dealt
11 with by College Trustees. I was a corporate finance
12 executive, I got dragged into this thing back in
13 1974/76 and my main job in the bank was acting in
14 corporate finance. My position was to get on with
15 my corporate finance activities and leave the
16 Channel Islands activities.
17 57 Q. I just want to understand how you understood
18 Mr. Lipscombe operated in relation to the monies
19 that were on deposit in Guinness & Mahon, how did it
20 come about?
21 A. How did it come about?
22 58 Q. What would he do, how would this be operated?
23 A. Again, I had some discussion with my
24 recollection is that there were intercompany
25 accounts between the bank in London, that there
26 would have been intercompany accounts from London
27 because it was mainly sterling balances and I think
28 the large deposit that represented the bureau,
29 collected accounts, was still back in Dublin. I

1 think if some of the clients, if you wanted to get
2 money to some of the clients in Dublin communication
3 would issue by telephone, or otherwise, or direct
4 from the clients that they wished to collect some
5 money and that money might be provided to them in
6 Dublin, they would call in and collect it.
7 59 Q. I want to find out how it operated. When you say
8 there were intercompany accounts with London, what
9 were the companies that were interconnected?
10 A. I think they would just be the normal intercompany
11 accounts like Guinness & Mahon Dublin's account with
12 London. I think, at some stage, Guinness & Mahon
13 Guernsey came into it which was set up some time
14 later, which was owned by the London bank. Really I
15 wasn't involved in that kind of interbank side of
16 it, I am very hazy on it. Normally within a bank
17 like Guinness & Mahon all of the subsidiaries would
18 have accounts with the parent, clearing type
19 accounts, but the exact nature of the
20 accounts...(INTERJECTION).
21 60 Q. To come back to what you told us a moment ago in
22 relation to the clients who wished to obtain funds,
23 what would they do, did you say?
24 A. I think in some cases, at that stage, I would have
25 had an awareness of who some of these beneficiaries
26 and clients were, which knowledge would have
27 increased over time from various points, or it could
28 have been an instruction from Mr. Traynor or a
29 request from Mr. Lipscombe that Mr. X would like to
19
1 get some money: Please give Mr. X £5,000. If that
2 occurred, I think if it occurred in the period when
3 there was the GMCI accounts it may have been a
4 direct debit. It might not have been me it might
5 have been Ru Leonard, it might have been
6 Mr. Traynor.
7 61 Q. You were involved some of the time?
8 A. To some degree, yes.
9 62 Q. Tell me what happened?
10 A. Let's say there was a person who was well known to
11 the bank and we knew he was connected with the --
12 Mr. Lipscombe rang and said: Mr. X wants to get
13 £5,000, he would call it in, give it to him. He
14 would call in and certainly once the bureau system
15 had been set up I would just debit it to his expense
16 account and inform Mr. Collery that I had so done.
17 63 Q. You would actually physically hand him over a cheque
18 or cash?
19 A. Cash or whatever, yes.
20 64 Q. And you would put it into his expense account and
21 Mr. Collery would then deal with it?
22 A. Yes .
23 65 Q. From what you knew, I would imagine you would have
24 known fairly quickly that he put it there and he
25 dealt with it in accordance with the code. If it is
26 was £5,000 there would have been deduction?
27 A. He would now know the appropriate code account.
28 66 Q. So your involvement was as an official in the bank,
29 along with others, in making the payments that were
20
1 required by the clients, from time to time?
2 A. That was part of it, I wouldn't say that that
3 happened on a very regular basis. There was a
4 continuing -- there was some small administrative
5 role on a continuing basis with College Trustees,
6 the accounts, the statutory accounts of College
7 would be agreed each year with Mr. Lipscombe.
8 67 Q. Were you involved in that?
9 A. I would maybe review them with Mr. Lipscombe, but
10 that would be on a purely company basis rather than
11 on the basis of individual clients. I think that
12 summarises the most of it.
13 68 Q. This pooled deposit account was in the name of
14 Guinness & Mahon Guernsey Ltd. was it not?
15 A. I think at one point it was. I think my
16 recollection of that is that some time in the late
17 '70's or early '80's London decided to set up a full
18 bank in Guernsey to reactivate having a full bank
19 and in the early days of that the bank was set up
20 and Mr. Lipscombe was its first chief executive on a
21 pro-tem basis until London could staff it properly.
22 I think there may have been a time, I am just vague
23 on this, where the pool account was in the name of
24 Guinness & Mahon Guernsey for a period.
25 69 Q. My information, I may have taken it up incorrectly,
26 was that at the time when the change took place that
27 I want to deal with now and the money
29 A. The bureau?
21
1 70 Q. No, after the bureau when the College Trustees
2 system, when the Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust
3 account in Dublin had an additional account with
4 College Trustees and that change occurred, the money
5 that was on deposit from the Channel Islands was, I
6 think, in the Guinness & Mahon Guernsey?
7 A. I think that may well be.
8 71 Q. I want you to tell me about the change over that I
9 have just mentioned?
10 A. This to GMCT Re College.
11 72 Q. Yes .
12 A. I have no absolute recollection of it but I think it
13 would just purely be an administrative stroke of a
14 pen thing on Mr. Traynor's part. Instead of the
15 funds being routed through Guernsey they would just
16 be placed in the name, it is all just intercompany
17 stuff within the Group.
18 73 Q. That may be very familiar to you, but I would like
19 you to explain it to me in detail?
20 A. The change?
21 74 Q. Yes .
22 A. I just recall the change taking place.
23 75 Q. Just tell me what the change was?
24 A. The change would have been that the pool deposits,
25 which were in Dublin in the name of the Guinness &
26 Mahon Guernsey were now, which would have
27 represented a deposit with the underlying companies
28 out in the Channel Islands with Guernsey, with
29 Guernsey placing those funds back in Dublin in a
22
1 pool account, that that would have changed and the
2 flow of the funds would be that they were no longer
3 in Guernsey but they were booked as going back to
4 Cayman and then from Cayman back to Dublin.
5 7 6 Q. In the books of the company the funds were moved to
6 Cayman and from Cayman to Dublin?
7 A. Yes, it would be a deposit by the underlying Channel
8 Islands companies, the client type companies would
9 have a deposit which previously was with Guernsey,
10 is now with Cayman and Cayman is now putting those
11 deposits back on block with Dublin in the bureau
12 system, whereas Guernsey had done that heretofore.
13 77 Q. It was in the Guernsey Bureau system in Dublin
14 heretofore?
15 A. I think so.
16 78 Q. It was then changed so it was transferred in the
17 books to Cayman and then got into the Cayman bureau
18 system?
19 A. Yes.
20 79 Q. Can you assist in relation to the codes, from what
21 you have said it would seem to me that probably the
22 codes were exactly the same in the new system?
23 A. I suspect, I couldn't be sure.
24 80 Q. So, for whatever reason it was Mr. Traynor's
25 decision this occurred and it meant that the
26 Guernsey account was closed in Guinness & Mahon and
27 there were instead two large accounts?
28 A. I think that is correct. I just volunteer this, I
29 think Cayman was very much under Mr. Traynor's
23
1 control, Guernsey would have been under London's
2 control, it was a London subsidiary, and it may have
3 been more profitable from the Dublin end for it to
4 be coming back to Dublin via Cayman, which was its
5 subsidiary, rather than coming back to Dublin via
6 Guernsey, which was London's subsidiary.
7 81 Q. It was a commercial?
8 A. I think so, yes.
9 82 Q. This system operated and what was your involvement
10 in the system up to -- that occurred in 1981?
11 A. Yes .
12 83 Q. Up to the time you left in 1988?
13 A. My involvement was fairly minimal in that period.
14 As I say, I had become aware of the identity of some
15 of the clients, some of those clients would contact
16 me if they wanted to make communication, a
17 relatively small number of them, but because I had
18 an awareness of who they were they would continue to
19 contact me. Some of them had back-to-back loans.
20 84 Q. Were you involved in the back-to-back loan
21 situation?
22 A. Only to the extent that I was on the credit
23 committee of the bank, from the late '70's, probably
24 I think about 1977. The back-to-back loans, I
25 believe, had been going on for, predated that by
26 some considerable period. My recollection is that
27 if some of these people who had established trusts
28 are companies off-shore and they wished to borrow
29 funds, the procedure would be that it would go to
24
1 Mr. Traynor, Mr. Traynor would decide whether a
2 back-to-back would be granted and it would go
3 through in the normal way from a credit committee
4 decision. The existence of the cash deposit would
5 not be mentioned in the security letter.
6 85 Q. I think the phrase used was "suitably secured "?
7 A. I think various phrases -- I have no recollection of
8 an absolute, that this is absolute, the phrase was
9 quite loose I think.
10 86 Q. If one comes across on the document as "adequately
11 secured" or "suitably secured" that meant a
12 back-to-back loan?
13 A. Almost certainly. I believe it is possible there
14 were exceptions.
15 87 Q. They were not mentioned at all. The fact that there
16 were back-to-back loans took place was not mentioned
17 in the facility letters?
18 A. No, I think there is an issue, it wasn't mentioned
19 and the hypothecation, the funds would have been
20 hypothecated to either, I presume, Cayman or to
21 College by the underlying depositor and I think, de
22 facto, Dublin had the benefit of the knowledge that
23 those funds were there. I am not sure if legally
24 they could actually lay their hands on them, but
25 from a group point of view. I remember raising the
26 point with Mr. Traynor.
27 88 Q. At the credit committee this would have been raised?
28 A. Yes .
29 89 Q. Mr. Traynor would have said this okay?

1 A. Yes.
2 90 Q. And then this would be noted?
3 A. And we would just go to the Board then for formal
4 approval in the Board minutes and it would go to
5 London. I think London required returns. London
6 had a keen interest in knowing which loans were
7 cashed back, effectively.
8 91 Q. London would be informed?
9 A. They would, I believe, not by me but in the normal
10 banking...(INTERJECTION).
11 92 Q. Yes. Could I return in time to the Cayman Island's
12 subsidiary, Mr. Keane, it had been established a
13 short time before you came to the bank I think.
14 What was your involvement in the Cayman Island?
15 A. Very little, I have known, very little. From time
16 to time I knew who the people were down there, I had
17 met Mr. Collins, I had met Mr. Furze and from time
18 to time one-off things might come up where
19 Mr. Traynor might, they might be on the phone and
20 they wanted to open an account or something in
21 Dublin, but no, it was very spasmodic and I had no
22 involvement really.
23 93 Q. You knew some of the clients of the Channel Islands
24 Group?
25 A. Yes.
26 94 Q. Did you know some of the clients in the trusts in
27 the Cayman Islands?
28 A. When I say no I would say I had a certain awareness
29 from the credit committee from the back-to-back
26
1 loans that there were some very large back-to-back
2 loans which were suitably secured.
3 95 Q. It was that way you got to know the people?
4 A. That is how I got to know them.
5 96 Q. Why I am asking you about the Cayman Island is that
6 we have obtained a document which was an internal
7 company document, obviously September, 1974, it is
8 not for circulation to clients, it is the Guinness
9 Peat Group, Cayman Islands, Exhibit 1, and it is
10 referred to at the first page that:
11 "... any request for information or

introduction to the resident personnel
12 should be referred to J. Desmond
Traynor or Martin C. Keane... ."
13
14 Whatever that was it was not operated, is that the
15 situation?
16 A. That is my understanding. I don't believe I have
17 ever seen this document, Exhibit 1.
18 97 Q. I would like to get your assistance on another
19 aspect of the services that were given by Cayman.
20 We have been dealing with trusts with depositors who
21 were who were beneficiaries of trusts, but there
22 were a great number of other people who were on the
23 bureau system who hadn't trusts at all who made
24 deposits through Dublin, can you explain that?
25 A. I am not really familiar with that, Judge. As far
26 as I was aware the vast bulk of the customers of the
27 Channel Islands companies had underlying companies,
28 there may not have been trusts over them in all
29 cases. I don't believe that there were, certainly
27
1 not to my recollection, any significant people
2 opening accounts in their own name or anything like
3 that, that there was always a company, as least, if
4 not a company and a trust or maybe there was a
5 company initially and at some point later a trust
6 may have been put over it.
7 98 Q. Were you aware of any individuals who were on the
8 bureau systems who had never set up trusts, who were
9 never companies in the Channel Islands or in the
10 Cayman Islands?
11 A. Not specifically that I can think of. This came up
12 last week in the context of the Moriarty Tribunal in
13 connection with Denis Foley and I gave evidence that
14 regard where Mr. Traynor introduced me to Deputy
15 Foley and informed me that he was minding funds for
16 Deputy Foley and didn't tell me where they were and
17 they could have been in either bureau system.
18 99 Q. We have had several witnesses who never had any
19 trusts in any country but who were operating on the
20 bureau system?
21 A. I just can't think of any.
22 100 Q. You didn't come across any?
23 A. I have no memory at this point. Is this taken from
24 the ' 7 0's ?
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Perhaps we might have a
26 short break for a cup of
27 coffee now, would that be all right?
28 A. Yes .
29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: About ten minutes, that's

1 all.
3 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
4 101 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Keane, there are only
5 a few more questions that
6 I want to ask you. I want to ask you about a
7 letter, it is a letter of 20th May, 1988, Exhibit 1,
8 it was addressed to you and it was a Royal Trust
9 Company of Canada Ltd. It was:
10 "Dear Mr. Keen,

Laroo Investments Ltd. Ancusa Holdings
11 Ltd. and Tynevilla Investments C.I.
Ltd.
12
I have pleasure in enclosing certified
13 copies of the memorandum and articles
of association together with
14 certificates of incorporation of the
above named companies..."
15
16 What were these companies?
17 A. I think there was some tax scheme in this to do with
18 Michael Smurfit which I think Guinness & Mahon took
19 over from Royal Trust. It involved some tax
20 avoidance scheme which involved various companies
21 into borrowing and a certificate of deposit. I
22 think those companies would have opened accounts
23 with Guinness & Mahon and I think I would have been
24 asking them for copies of the memorandum and
25 articles of association in accordance with
26 normal...(INTERJECTION).
27 102 Q. When you say they were opening accounts, Guinness &
28 Mahon, were they opening accounts with the Dublin
29 company?
29
1 A. I think they may have well been with the Dublin
2 company.
3 103 Q. Or were they involved at all with Ansbacher?
4 A. I think it is outside of the Ansbacher loop. My
5 memory is that there was loan, I think it was
6 originally a three year certificate of loan and
7 certificate of deposit maturing at the end of three
8 years, which was originally with Royal Trust, and at

f
9 some point in the 7 0 f s I think Royal Trust
10 indicated that they didn't want to continue the
11 business. Guinness & Mahon, through Mr. Traynor,
12 who was friendly with Mr. Smurfit, indicated that we
13 would take over the business. I think it involved
14 Guinness & Mahon, but I think there will be a credit
15 minute to support this. It involved Guinness &
16 Mahon lending Mr. Smurfit a substantial amount of
17 money, I think it was like a million pounds and
18 Tynevilla, I think, is one of the companies taking
19 out a certificate of deposit with the bank which
20 would mature in three years time. These other
21 companies were involved. At the end various things
22 happened with the certificate of deposit -- I
23 believe that Royal Trust had this business which
24 involved a loan to Mr. Smurfit and a deposit by
25 Tynevilla, but I can't be sure, but it involved a
26 loan and a certificate of deposit, a three year loan
27 and a certificate of deposit which would mature at
28 the end of three years. It was, I think, some form
29 of tax avoidance scheme, which was originally
30
1 administered by Royal Trust. I think Royal Trust
2 indicated they didn't wish to continue with it, I
3 think they were winding down their operations in
4 Ireland and Guinness & Mahon took it over some time
5 in, the date is slightly strained, some time in the
6 '80's, it rolled every three years, this certificate
7 of deposit scheme and borrowing rolled over. I
8 wouldn't have classified it as part of the Ansbacher
9 deposits, it would have been a certificate of
10 deposit of the bank in Dublin, I suspect. I think
11 these companies were associated with the transaction
12 in some way and I would think that they would have
13 been sending me the memorandum and article of
14 association in accordance with normal account
15 opening.
16 104 Q. Tynevilla Investments I think is Jefferson
17 Smurfitt's company, is it?
18 A. I don't know but my understanding is it is
19 associated with Mr. Smurfit. I think if you have
20 access to the credit memoranda of the bank.
21 105 Q. When you say the "credit memoranda" what is that?
22 A. The credit minutes of the bank or the board minutes
23 of the bank which would record the loan decisions.
24 I think you would probably find a loan, I think it
25 is to Michael Smurfitt personally, and the nature of
26 this transaction would be quite clear. It is not in
27 the Ansbacher accounts as such.
28 106 Q. These would be in the bank's minutes?
29 A. In the credit minutes.
31
1 107 Q. When you say "credit minutes"?
2 A. The credit minutes would be, there is the credit
3 committee minutes and then they would subsequently
4 go for approval to the Board so they would be
5 repeated again in the Board minutes.
6 108 Q. It would be the credit committee minutes that would
7 originally have the decision?
8 A. That's right, which would then be reapproved by the
9 Board. Especially of the magnitude I think it would
10 probably have had to go to London.
11 109 Q. MS. MACKEY: Sorry, Mr. Keane, that
12 would be in the late '70's
13 early '80's?
14 A. The date -- it went on over a long period of time.
15 110 Q. MS. MACKEY: But the initial credit
16 committee minute, would it
17 be at the beginning?
18 A. There would be a new credit committee minute each
19 time, each three year cycle. Just before I forget.
20 It in the original letter, your letter to me of 28th
21 January, just for the record, it says:
22 "...Guinness & Mahon Ltd. of which you

were a director..."
23 I was never a director of the bank.
24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. Mr. Keane, you
25 appreciate that it is an
26 important part of our function to ascertain the
27 persons who were clients of Ansbacher and I
28 appreciate that you may not feel particularly happy
29 in having to inform us, but we must ask you to
32
1 inform us of the names. I would suggest whatever
2 you would like to do, but what I would suggest is
3 that you could give us the names, write them out and
4 send them on to us later.
5 MR. SHUBOTHAM: Could I interrupt just at
6 this point, I hope this
7 would be of assistance. Clearly I think the
8 evidence that has come out to date is Mr. Keane
9 knows, has a fair bit of information about the
10 Channel Islands, he has a very limited amount of
11 information in relation to the Caymans. On the face
12 of it, the information concerning the Channel
13 Islands, as far as Mr. Keane is concerned, is not
14 connected with the affairs of the company over
15 which - do you mind allowing me this - are not
16 connected with the affairs of the company over which
17 you are appointed. However, Mr. Keane recognises
18 that you may be in possession of information of
19 which you are aware, which does make it part of the
20 affairs of the company and therefore part of your
21 enquiries, and if it is on that basis that you are
22 asking for this information; i.e. it is connected
23 with the affairs of the company over which you are
24 appointed Mr. Keane has no difficulty in complying
25 with that.
26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I cannot divulge to you
27 the basis on which we are
28 putting our question. It seems to me to be clear,
29 Mr. Keane, from the evidence that we have that
33
1 people who established trusts in Guernsey and who
2 never finished up their trusts or whatever it was,
3 or left them lying dormant before 1981, are of no
4 concern of ours, it seems to us that after 1981
5 people who have maintained trusts in Guernsey are.
6 What we would require from you is the names of
7 everybody who established trusts, who had trusts in
8 Guernsey and the subsidiaries. We will write to
9 them and ask them, if they had no dealings after
10 1981 we are not concerned with them, if they had we
11 are. That is the position. May I just say we are
12 maintaining this position, this is why we are asking
13 the questions. Would you like time to consider?
14 MR. SHUBOTHAM: On that basis, it is clear
15 from the Act and I am not
16 going to quote the law to you, with respect, but I
17 mean it is clear from the Act that it must be
18 connected with the affairs and if you are assuring
19 us that this is connected with the affairs of the
20 company that you are investigating we have no
21 problem in providing the information.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you. Our legal
23 advice is, yes, that we
24 will operate the way I have indicated and we are
25 required to do so under the terms of the order.
26 Very well, that has clarified the situation.
27
28 (TO WITNESS) I will do whatever you would like, you
29 might like to consider, I am sure you have given a
34
1 lot of thought to this already, and forward to us a
2 list of names of clients both in the Channel Islands
3 and in Cayman and I understand your evidence is that
4 you knew very little about the Cayman.
5 A. Yes.
6 111 Q. In addition we will require you to indicate from
7 your knowledge on the credit committee the persons
8 who had back-to-back loans because they had
9 back-to-back loans which were backed by the Cayman
10 company so we will require both, and if you could
11 indicate on the document that you would send to us
12 who, to your knowledge, had trusts, and who, to your
13 knowledge, were involved in the back-to-back loan
14 transaction?
15 A. Certainly
16 MR. SHUBOTHAM: Mr. Keane is absolutely
17 happy to do that on that
18 basis, but for the record I just want to make it
19 clear, obviously he has no documentation so any list
20 he prepares will be purely as a result of his
21 recollection and his recollection only and none of
22 us have perfect recollection.
23 112 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well. There is one
24 last matter that I want to
25 ask you about and that is whether you, yourself, had
26 a deposit and were involved in this?
27 A. No.
28 113 Q. You hadn't?
29 A. No.
35
1 114 Q. We have records in relation to the ledger account
2 which shows that payments out were made to you but
3 they were very small sums, we can show it to you if
4 you like, from the deposit. The photostat is very
5 bad but they are payments out from the ledger, it is
6 the Guinness & Mahon College ledger and you will see
7 they are highlighted there 1982 there is £200 in
8 February 1982 and then over the page in March there
9 is £300 and over the page then...(INTERJECTION).
10 A. My best belief on those is that I travelled on
11 occasion to the Channel Islands and they are just
12 travelling expenses.
13 115 Q. I just want your evidence on this point. That is
14 all the questions. Mr. Rowan would like to ask you
15 a few questions.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
36
1 MR. KEANE WAS THEN EXAMINED BY MR. ROWAN, AS FOLLOWS
3 116 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Keane, you are a
4 chartered accountant you
5 say?
6 A. Yes.
7 117 Q. And that you trained with Stokes Kennedy and
8 Crowley?
9 A. That's right, yes.
10 118 Q. And that directly you qualified you left Stokes
11 Kennedy Crowley and joined Guinness & Mahon?
12 A. That's correct.
13 119 Q. During your training contract and while you were
14 with SKC, did you have any opportunity to gain any
15 particular specialist knowledge of tax matters?
16 A. Not particularly, no.
17 120 Q. So it was a conventional training contract of the
18 day?
19 A. Conventional training contract and I actually moved
20 into corporate finance before the expiration of my
21 training contract.
22 121 Q. Corporate finance is a very wide embracing name and
23 I just wondered whether you might describe for us
24 what aspects of corporate finance work that you did
25 when you were with SKC first and then subsequently
26 during your time with Guinness & Mahon?
27 A. I was very junior when I was in SKC, I worked for
28 Mr. Alex Spain. I think what we would define as
29 corporate finance in my SKC time tended to be
37
1 special work, one-off type assignments rather than
2 what I would probably describe as corporate finance
3 in my current or in my Guinness & Mahon days, in the
4 sense it would be largely fund raising for
5 companies.
6 122 Q. This is with?
7 A. With SKC. Some acquisition activity and I was
8 pretty junior and that would have been in a period
9 just round before I qualified. But it would be
10 special work, reports for banks, that kind of thing
11 would have been loosely defined as corporate finance
12 in SKC. When I joined the bank corporate finance
14 123 Q. So that when you were with SKC you either hadn't
15 qualified or you just had qualified?
16 A. Yes.
17 124 Q. Do I assume that some of the work would have been of
18 an investigatory nature?
19 A. I am just trying to think, reports on the financial
20 affairs of companies, yes to that extent. Companies
21 maybe in some difficulty, reports for the bank, that
22 kind of stuff, I can remember doing one or two of
23 those. It is a long time ago, Mr. Rowan.
24 125 Q. What prompted you to leave SKC so quickly, it is not
25 an uncommon feature, but I am interested just
26 in...(INTERJECTION).
27 A. I have no problem answering it. I think I am down
28 as qualifying in 1972, in fact that is the year that
29 I am actually on the register. I think I actually
38
1 qualified in the winter exams in 1971, which would
2 have been the end of my training contract and I left
3 about seven months later. Up to that time I had
4 been working on some flotations for long form
5 reports for the Jones Group at that time, now
6 demised. At that time the attractive, and it still
7 is perceived to be an attractive course action for
8 aspiring young accountants to get into corporate
9 finance with a merchant bank. My trigger for moving
10 at that time was that my then boss and mentor,
11 Mr. Spain, had indicated he was leaving the firm,
12 which in the end of the day he didn't do, and I
13 decided if he was going, I would also, and around
14 that time Guinness & Mahon advertised for junior
15 corporate finance executives. I had done some work
16 for Guinness & Mahon on a reporting accountant's job
17 and I applied for the job and I got it and I was
18 delighted with myself.
19 126 Q. So then describe what corporate finance entailed as
20 you developed your career in Guinness & Mahon?
21 A. Corporate finance in Guinness & Mahon, Guinness &
22 Mahon was a small merchant bank with a fairly good
23 pedigree. It involved the advising of companies on
24 mergers and acquisitions. It involved flotations
25 work or pre-flotations work. Really, all that kind
26 of stuff, Mr. Rowan, I can't think back through
27 those particular years as to what particular jobs
28 were going on in that particular period. Some jobs
29 were very lengthy. The whole restructuring for
39
1 Golden Vale, which I worked on for about six or nine
2 months with very long periods away from Dublin down
3 in Golden Vale. I would have been heavily involved
4 in the defence of the new Ireland Group from the bid
5 by PMPA, I would have been on the team on that.
6 Numerous other smaller acquisitions and financial
7 advice to other companies, Irish Ropes, Beamish &
8 Crawford. I wouldn't, obviously, have been the
9 senior person on it, but that kind of activity.
10 127 Q. That was the point I was going to make because
11 inevitably you were a relatively newly trained
12 chartered accountant when you joined Guinness &
13 Mahon and you had limited practical experience at
14 that stage and you would have worked as a junior
15 member of the team. Who would have been the driving
16 force?
17 A. On the corporate finance side in Guinness & Mahon?
18 128 Q. On the corporate finance side?
19 A. Maurice O'Kelly I think was the main person on
20 corporate finance. I when I joined my nominal
21 senior was a man called Nigel Dewbury, who was a
22 director of the bank, who was a fully London trained
23 merchant bank corporate finance person.
24 129 Q. When did you start to have significant contact with
25 Desmond Traynor?
26 A. I think my -- I mean obviously it was a very small
27 bank, but I think I stated earlier that my first
28 real contact with Mr. Traynor would have come in
29 1974 when I was asked to undertake this work in
40
1 relation to Jersey.
2 130 Q. That wouldn't have been really corporate finance
3 work would it?
4 A. No, and I have stated that but I mean I think there
5 was a problem and there was nobody around and
6 Mr. Traynor wanted somebody to carry out a role and
7 I was asked to do it.
8 131 Q. When you became involved with the Channel Islands,
9 how much of your time did that take up?
10 A. Initially it was never a great deal of time,
11 initially in that period, 1974/75 period it might
12 have taken up ten percent , fifteen percent of my
13 time, I suspect.
14 132 Q. As you got to know a bit more about the Channel
15 Islands and trusts and all of that, who did you
16 judge was the technical driving force of all of this
17 inside Guinness & Mahon?
18 A. Mr. Traynor.
19 133 Q. Did he rely on any external advisers?
20 A. He may have done. I think Don Reid was the bank's
21 external tax adviser through all that period and he
22 was very close. I think that would be the only
23 person that would come to mind.
24 134 Q. Was there a firm of legal advisers who may have had
25 some part to play in this?
26 A. I don't know, I have no recollection at all of any
27 legal advisers. The bank had lots of legal advisers
28 but not in this context, if you are talking to me in
29 the context of the Channel Islands.
41
f
1 135 Q. At this point I am, yes. So that in the 8 0 f s when
2 the relationship with the Channel Islands started to
3 diminish and it became more Cayman operation and
4 during the later stages of your employment with
5 Guinness & Mahon you would have come across quite a
6 number of firms of accountants and solicitors who
7 may have dealt with the bank, acting on behalf of
8 clients, do you recall names of accounting firms or
9 legal firms who would seem to have had an interest
10 in the area of trusts and advising on trusts and
11 off-shore arrangements of one sort or another?
12 A. I think I will break this in two. I think in the

f
13 7 0 f s my memory is there was quite a lot of tax
14 avoidance schemes being operated out of the Channel
15 Islands and the bank may have been part of some of
16 those from purely the banking transactions involved
17 in those schemes. I think SKC would have had close
18 connections with some of the clients. I think there
19 were other schemes which didn't necessarily give
20 rise to ongoing accounts in the Channel Islands with
21 various other legal firms and I think there were
22 some tax schemes, from memory, which were devised by
23 counsel, by Charles Hacicius and I think one or two
24 other legal firms that come to mind who were into
25 tax planning on behalf of their clients.
26 136 Q. Their names?
27 A. One that comes to mind is Kenny Stephenson & Chapman
28 in Waterford, who had, I can remember some tax
29 schemes. They are not ones that I believe gave rise
42
1 to trusts, in that case they are transient, they
2 don't have any ongoing that there was an ongoing
3 client afterwards. I can think of some in relation
4 to SKC in that category.
5 137 Q. So that as you went into the '80's...(INTERJECTION).
6 A. This would be '70's, now. I am talking about '70's,
7 '80's I recall very little activity in the '80's.
8 138 Q. Just explain what you mean by that?
9 A. By which?
10 139 Q. That you recall very little?
11 A. My memory of it is that there was a lot of tax
12 planning and activity in the Channel Islands in the
13 '70's and that that is the period in which most of
14 it took place and that is really all I can say.
15 That is purely from recollection. The '80's, I
16 think strike me as, in my perspective, relatively
17 quite whatever was there was there.
18 140 Q. I am just trying to find where I noted it. But I
19 think I got an impression where you said that there
20 were further clients who became involved in the
21 '80's?
22 A. Maybe it was a mistake on my part. I think it was
23 in the '70's, the mid '70's, I think there were very
24 few, from my memory, new clients in the '80's that I
25 was aware of at any rate. It may be my fault.
26 141 Q. It was a confusion. You said that you spent a
27 little bit of time reviewing the financial
28 statements of Guinness & Mahon College Trust?
29 A. Yes .
1 142 Q. What did that reviewing exercise involve?
2 A. That would purely have been a review with
3 Mr. Lipscombe where he would have just gone down
4 through what the management fee was and the basis of
5 his management fee and what charges they were
6 putting through for management.
7 143 Q. In terms of reviewing, what sort of a hat had you on
8 when you were doing that?
9 A. I'm not sure. I think it was an administrative type
10 of hat. The accounts for College were audited in
11 the Channel Islands. I think just as part of the
12 ongoing situation I would have just looked at the
13 accounts just to review what the total fees were and
14 that Mr. Lipscombe's fee was in accordance with what
15 the agreement was, that it was fifty percent of the
16 income, which I think is what the agreement was.
17 144 Q. You are acting, if you like, you were reviewing them
18 with your Dublin hat on?
19 A. I think that is correct, yes.
20 145 Q. This review would have been carried out before the
21 audit had been completed or after the audit had been
22 completed?
23 A. Probably around the same time I suspect. When I
24 said it, it wasn't a big thing we would have relied
25 on the audit really.
26 146 Q. You might have had more knowledge of whether things
27 were correct or not more than the auditors?
28 A. I don't think so. It wasn't a case, just to be
29 clear, of going down through the income side of
44
1 College Trustees to establish that that was all the
2 income and me carrying out an audit that in fact all
3 the income was properly included. John Lipscombe
4 had our considerable trust and so it would be fairly
5 cursory to ask him to explain the calculation of his
6 fee and how it reconciled back to the income in the
7 account and any expense item.
8 147 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you were a member of the
9 credit committee of Guinness & Mahon, when did you
10 become a member of the credit committee, can you
11 remember?
12 A. I think there was a major reorganisation of Guinness
13 & Mahon in or about 1977 under which the credit
14 committee was then set up. There was no credit
15 committee as such prior to that date and the credit
16 committee was expanded and that coincided with the
17 time that Mr. Guinness became chairman
18 non-executive, Mr. Forwood departed, Mr. Traynor
19 became executive deputy chairman and Mr. O'Kelly
20 became managing director. They instituted a credit
21 committee, which was a large credit committee where
22 all of the banking people, all of the senior
23 managers in the bank were on the credit committee
24 and it met twice a week. The minutes of its
25 decisions were ratified by the Board at the
26 subsequent weekly Board meeting. I think it was
27 1977, maybe 1978.
28 148 Q. You, as one of the managers, would have sat on the
29 credit committee?
45
1 A. I could work out who was on it, if you want, but
2 probably it would be ten or twelve people on it.
3 149 Q. It would have been chaired by?
4 A. Chaired by whoever the senior director was available
5 on the day. It might be Mr. Traynor, it might be
6 Mr. O'Kelly, it might be Mr. Pender, who was the
7 banking director.
8 150 Q. This issue came up in the context of the
9 back-to-back loan applications?
10 A. Yes.
11 151 Q. I wondered would you try and describe the process
12 where a loan application was brought to the credit
13 committee. What I would like you to do is I would
14 like you to describe who might have formulated the
15 document which came to the credit committee?
16 A. It could have been any one of a number of people.
17 In a lot of cases I would say it would be the loans
18 people, the loans people down stairs. Mr. Leonard
19 was on loans, Mr. Pat O'Dwyer, very often they would
20 prepare a credit minute, kind of a credit
21 application form which was just a fairly standard
22 form and I think in the case of any of the them that
23 were going to be suitably secured or were going to
24 be met by -- they might have been instructed by
25 Mr. Traynor. It wasn't a very closely defined
26 process it could have been all over the place,
27 really. A lot of them might have come from
28 Mr. Traynor directly, I suspect, maybe to
29 Mr. O'Dwyer to prepare the minute, he would have
46
1 been the most common person to prepare it.
2 152 Q. Obviously someone had to fill out the boxes on the
3 form?
4 A. That's correct, yes.
5 153 Q. I wondered whether you had any appreciation of the
6 actual process of deciding why a loan was necessary.
7 I mean, for instance, the loan might have come from
8 a client who said: I would like to get some of my
9 money out of my trust. That might have been dealt
10 with, perhaps, by the idea of a loan to a local
11 corporate vehicle if you like. What I am trying to
12 discover is whether this was a process which was
13 initiated by a client or whether it was initiated by
14 one of the executives in the bank or more
15 particularly Mr. Traynor?
16 A. My understanding, such as it is, is that it would be
17 a process initiated by a client would be my
18 recollection of any of the ones that I can recall
19 where the client had a need for funds for a
20 particular purpose and wished to borrow. Obviously
21 if they had funds off-shore with Guinness & Mahon
22 the borrowing would be fairly easily done through
23 Guinness & Mahon. I don't have any sense of it
24 going the other way, the way you described, but that
25 is only my experience of it.
26 154 Q. In essence you said that you thought that some of
27 the loan applications may have come from Mr. Traynor
28 himself?
29 A. I don't believe Mr. Traynor would prepare a loan
47
1 application, he would instruct, probably, one of the
2 lending people, probably, Pat O'Dwyer I would say
3 the most likely case, to prepare a loan application
4 or a roll over. These would come up every time a
5 loan had to come up for renewal. They would come up
6 on a -- my memory is of a lot of the back-to-backs
7 is they just came up year after year for renewal,
8 they were like hardy annuals, they were evergreen
9 type loans. The amounts might change and the
10 amounts might not change, but they were on the books
11 for many, many years most of them.
12 155 Q. On the first occasion when a back-to-back loan was
13 being created, the lending people down stairs would
14 not have known about the deposit?
15 A. They might or might not. They might have known that
16 there were funds and they may have been told by
17 Mr. Traynor that that is all right you can put in
18 and Mr. Traynor would say this is all right.
19 156 Q. The impression you give is that it would have had to
20 have Mr. Traynor's involvement on the first
21 occasion?
22 A. I don't think any loan was ever given on
23 back-to-back basis, would be my impression, without
24 Mr. Traynor's approval. That would be my
25 understanding. I think in relation to any matter in
26 relation to that I think Mr. Traynor would be the
27 primary source of approval. That is my belief. It
28 is not a formalised process, Mr. Rowan, and we are
29 going back over a very long period of time but my
48
1 impression is that Mr. Traynor would certainly have
2 known or approved it.
3 157 Q. You know better than I, that banks will lend money
4 on two premises: One is on foot of security and the
5 other is on foot of cash flow where there is a
6 business proposition?
7 A. That's some of the reasons, yes.
8 158 Q. In fact, of course, banks prefer to hold security?
9 A. Well, I think usually that's correct.
10 159 Q. And in circumstances where a bank held an
11 equivalent, sorry had access to an equivalent
12 deposit then, on the face of it, the bank was fully
13 secured?
14 A. On the face of it de facto, yes, that's correct.
15 160 Q. Do you think that under the back-to-back loan
16 arrangements Guinness & Mahon were fully secured?
17 A. In practice, yes.
18 161 Q. Why do you say that?
19 A. I say that because on the back-to-back arrangements
20 and I believe that the funds were hypothecated to
21 the off-shore subsidiaries by the depositor and the
22 bank had the knowledge of that that the funds were
23 blocked. I don't believe they were hypothecated
24 directly to the bank in Dublin is my memory, but
25 they were hypothecated to the off-shore subsidiaries
26 and taken on a group basis the bank had no exposure.
27 162 Q. So let us suppose a loan had gone wrong so that an
28 individual or a company had become insolvent and it
29 appeared that the loan was not going to be
49
1 recoverable, how do you think the provider of the
2 loan, which was the Dublin bank, would have gone
3 about recovering its lending against the deposit?
4 A. I presume that there was some security in the
5 facility letter. In all of my time I have no
6 recollection of that ever happening where the bank
7 had to access, I couldn't be certain of this, but I
8 have no recollection of a situation ever arising
9 where the bank had to have recourse to go to one of
10 its subsidiaries to try and recover the -- I have no
11 recollection.
12 163 Q. In theoretical terms how might it have happened?
13 A. I can't speculate on that, I just don't know.
14 164 Q. So that when the back-to-back loan application came
15 before the credit committee the credit committee
16 went through the application and the term "suitably
17 secured" or something similar to that would have
18 been used on the application and it would have been
19 approved?
20 A. That's correct.
21 165 Q. And those minutes would then have gone to the Board?
22 A. To the Board.
23 166 Q. You said something to the effect that London had a
24 keen interest in knowing which loans were subject to
25 back-to-back arrangements?
26 A. I think London had a keen interest in all loans made
27 by Dublin. I am not the one to answer this in that
28 I wasn't on the banking side but I believe that
29 there were certain returns done from Dublin to
50
1 London on a normal reporting basis and also all
2 loans above a certain figure, which would have moved
3 at various times had to be reapproved by London. In
4 addition, London had directors on the Board of
5 Dublin who would attend, not all Board meetings, but
6 certainly a number of them. There were, certainly,

f
7 in the 8 0 f s a situation where there would have been
8 a high degree of -- plus they would do loan reviews
9 on a regular basis. They would come to Dublin and
10 do loan reviews, go through the loan book. Normal
11 reporting requirements between the parent and the
12 subsidiary which had been tightened up very

f
13 considerably in the 7 0 f s because I think some
14 things had gone awry.
15 167 Q. Taking all of this in the round, there was a fairly
16 high degree of secrecy involved in the operation of
17 the Channel Islands and College Trustees and so on?
18 A. I think it became -- it wasn't at first it became
19 progressively more secret, I would with agree that.
20 168 Q. Do you have a feeling for why that was?
21 A. That was Mr. Traynor's instructions. I don't have a
22 feel for it. Everything to do with Cayman and the
23 Channel Islands goes back to Mr. Traynor. He made
24 all the decisions, he decided, why he decided I
25 can't say.
26 169 Q. Did he, as a management style, seek to impress upon
27 his subordinates the need for secrecy?
28 A. I think no more than -- you worked in a bank,
29 everything is confidential in a bank.
51
1 170 Q. I think there is an essential difference between the
2 need for confidentiality, which is not an uncommon
3 feature in many commercial organisations, and the
4 issue of secrecy?
5 A. I think, I mean I find it difficult to answer in the
6 context of being personally aware that "guard this
7 with your life" type of, I am not conscious of that.
8 He was a man who tended to give people just about
9 enough information as they needed to do to execute
10 whatever he wanted them to do. That is the nature
11 of the man.
12 171 Q. He subdivided responsibilities in an interesting
13 way; didn't he?
14 A. He did, yes. I don't know what you mean by
15 interesting but various people had responsibilities
16 and Mr. Traynor, my memory of him is that if he
17 asked you to do something, he made it clear what he
18 wanted you to do and gave you the information
19 necessary for you to carry out, without necessarily
20 explaining where it fitted into a wider picture of
21 things.
22 172 Q. Someone else needed to have the big picture, did
23 they not?
24 A. When you say "the big picture"?
25 173 Q. You just said that Mr. Traynor...(INTERJECTION).
26 A. I am just talking generally.
27 174 Q. But that Mr. Traynor would have explained to an
28 individual what he wanted that individual to do and
29 therefore he would have asked people to do various
52
1 bits of the task?
2 A. Yes .
3 175 Q. The task being to look after the clients?
4 A. Yes, that's correct, yes.
5 176 Q. So Mr. Traynor had a view of how all of this was
6 operating and how one thing related to the other?
7 A. When you say one thing, Mr. Traynor in the end of
8 the day if we go to the period post '79, Mr. Traynor
9 and Mr. Collery were the only people with, if you
10 like, access to the overall position in relation to
11 individual clients, if that is what you are talking
12 about. I am beginning to lose this a bit.
13 177 Q. I was going to use an expression, one talks in
14 management terms of a key manager, what happens if
15 that key manager falls under a bus; i.e. is not
16 available with no notice, or short notice. Who in
17 that case would have been responsible for giving the
18 instructions ?
19 A. What instructions.
20 178 Q. If Mr. Traynor had not been available?
21 A. I am not sure what you mean because unless you are
22 talking about a particular instance.
23 179 Q. You said that Mr. Traynor was the man who had the
24 knowledge of the overview of the whole thing and
25 that you had some knowledge of things and
26 Mr. Collery had some knowledge of things and perhaps
27 other people had some knowledge of things, but if
28 Mr. Traynor had not been there who would have acted
29 on his behalf?
53
1 A. I don't know. In what circumstances, let's say a
2 situation where someone applied for a loan for a
3 back-to-back, is that what you are suggesting?
4 180 Q. Any of the topics that would have required the
5 knowledge of clients' affairs which Mr. Traynor
6 would have had to have had?
7 A. Are we talking about knowledge of clients' affairs
8 in the context that the clients had funds in with
9 subsidiaries or trusts?
10 181 Q. That sort of thing, yes.
11 A. I just don't know. I just find it difficult to
12 follow your line of enquiry. The reality is that
13 Mr. Traynor was always available, and it would be my
14 view that rarely would matters be of such an urgent
15 nature that it couldn't wait for Mr. Traynor's
16 attention. That would be my view of it.
17 182 Q. We have had it explained to us that very many people
18 elected to deal with Mr. Traynor himself in the
19 first instance?
20 A. Yes.
21 183 Q. And really what I am asking you, and you may not
22 know and appreciate that, I am asking you if people
23 decided, for whatever reason, that they wanted to
24 deal with Mr. Traynor and had Mr. Traynor not been
25 there who might they then have dealt with?
26 A. They might have dealt with any number of people that
27 they may have come in contact with in the bank.
28 This bank was a small bank and Mr. Traynor would
29 have had, I would say, a lot of, I think it is well
54
1 established now, a lot of very private clients who
2 were personal to him and I don't believe that they
3 dealt with anybody else in the bank. They dealt
4 with Mr. Traynor whether Mr. Collery maybe in latter
5 years would have had that kind of knowledge to
6 enable him to step into the role, but I think an
7 awful lot of people dealt directly with Mr. Traynor
8 and Mr. Traynor alone, as you say. They might know
9 somebody else in the bank who might have some
10 knowledge. I don't think it arose. I don't have any
11 conscious thing of it arising. The instance I gave
12 -- I gave an instance which was, an unusual instance
13 for me, of Deputy Foley where the reason I was
14 called to Moriarty Tribunal last week was I had met
15 Mr. Foley once and Mr. Traynor had told me he was
16 looking after some money for Mr. Foley and that if
17 he ever wasn't in the bank when Mr. Foley called
18 that he would ask for me. I never actually met
19 Mr. Foley every again, but that was a very unusual
20 circumstance, but people would deal with the bank.
21 It was a small bank so people would establish
22 informal relationships or have knowledge. I just
23 find it hard to define it.
24 184 Q. I fully understand that it was a small bank and I
25 fully understand that Mr. Traynor was a significant
26 influence and I also fully understand that
27 Mr. Traynor increasingly decided that there was a
28 need for secrecy. When you put all that together,
29 the need for secrecy means that individuals get
55
1 information on a need to know basis which means that
2 if Mr. Traynor were not to be there then the secrecy
3 aspect would have, perhaps, made it difficult for
4 anyone else to have filled the role that Mr. Traynor
5 had?
6 A. I don't disagree with that.
7 185 Q. And that is a very interesting phenomena when you
8 think about the fact that in the early '80's a very
9 substantial proportion of Guinness & Mahon's assets
10 were tied up in the Cayman operation?
11 A. I can't comment on that.
12 MR. ROWAN: Thank you very much.
13 186 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just one point before I
14 ask Ms. Mackey. Arising
15 from what Mr. Rowan was asking you about the secrecy
16 there is a document, I would just like to you look
17 at it, it is a document of 31st August, 1987 to you
18 from Mr. Lipscombe. This is a memorandum from
19 Mr. Lipscombe to you and it is about opening of bank
20 accounts in general accounts in London and what he
21 was suggesting was: Exhibit IV.
22 "...on receiving the necessary request/

instruction we will telex G.M..."
23 That is Dublin.
24 "...to transfer the necessary sum to

our general account G.M & Co. GMG will
25 then issue a cheque on the general
account in favour of the nominated
26 person in Ireland or possibly to cash.
The cheque will be remitted to us as
27 per the instructions GMG receives..."
28
29 Then there was a similar arrangement made with a
56
1 deposit account.
2 "...G&M remit funds and credit to our

call deposit account advising us of the
3 remittance and two days after the funds
have been credited to GMG's account
4 they will be returned "
5 Do you remember this?
6 A. Very vaguely. I am just trying to read it. I think
7 he is writing wearing his Guinness & Mahon Guernsey
8 hat.
9 187 Q. Yes. And it is money that is in Dublin and the idea
10 is that:
11 "...on receiving the necessary request/

instruction we will telex G. M to
12 transfer..."
13 The idea is that Guinness & Mahon Dublin would
14 instruct him to tell them to transfer the necessary
15 sum to our general account in London. The money
16 would be transferred to London. Then GMG, that is
17 the Guernsey company would then issue a cheque to
18 the general account in favour of the nominated
19 person in Ireland. So the money instead of coming
20 from Dublin would be coming from Guernsey or in cash
21 and a cheque would be remitted to us by the
22 instructions that the Guernsey people receive.
23 These are sent directly to the nominated person, to
24 yourselves, do you remember this?
25 A. No, I don't.
26 188 Q. Do you remember was it operated?
27 A. I don't think it was operated because I think the
28 period of time when Mr. Lipscombe was involved with
29 Guinness & Mahon Guernsey was relatively short. I

1 think they may have intended to set it up this way,
2 but it didn't actually operate this way.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well.
4 MR. KEANE WAS THEN EXAMINED BY MS. MACKEY, AS
5 FOLLOWS
7 189 Q. MS. MACKEY: It is all in relation to
8 the change over in 1981
9 when the funds, as you put it, in the Channel
10 Islands in College Trustees were routed via Cayman
11 and we then had the account that was opened here in
12 Guinness & Mahon called Guinness & Mahon Cayman
13 Trust Re College Trustees. What I just want to get
14 clear about that is what exactly happened to the
15 individual accounts that were involved there. So
16 when the change over happened you already had in
17 Guinness & Mahon a Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust
18 pooled account?
19 A. Yes, sorry to keep track of this. We had a Guinness
20 & Mahon Cayman Trust account in Dublin.
21 190 Q. I am asking you, had we at that time the main pooled
22 account for Guinness & Mahon Cayman trust?
23 A. I believe so.
24 191 Q. Was this an additional and new account that was
25 opened, Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Re College?
26 A. I believe so.
27 192 Q. Had it, similar to the other pooled account,
28 subaccounts?
29 A. It had, my understanding is that it had. I wasn't
58
1 involved in this but my understanding is we had.
2 193 Q. Your understanding is all I am looking for at this
3 stage. And those subaccounts related to accounts
4 that had originally been with College Trustees?
5 A. Yes, I believe so.
6 194 Q. Were they kept on the bureau account system here in
7 Dublin?
8 A. My understanding, I am not sure when the bureau
9 started off, I think it was 1979.
10 195 Q. So this was 1981?
11 A. Without the records I would have difficulty with
12 this, but my thought was, I thought we covered it
13 earlier was that the Bureau started with GMG and
14 GMCT; is that correct? I don't have the records so
15 I am at a loss. My understanding is that the pooled
16 account, GMCT Re College is the Channel Islands'
17 money just moving into a GMCT account via College
18 instead of a Guinness & Mahon Guernsey account, that
19 was my recollection. I think we discussed it
20 earlier. That would literally be nearly a
21 bookkeeping entry even though it may seem like the
22 money goes all the way around the world, in fact it
23 is basically a bookkeeping entry.
24 196 Q. Who operated the individual accounts, who controlled
25 the individual accounts that were under the heading
26 of this...(INTERJECTION).
27 A. They are into the bureau system then they are under
28 the control of Mr. Collery.
29 197 Q. Mr. Collery actually controlled the subaccounts of
59
1 GMCT Re College?
2 A. That is my understanding. In the sense that they
3 are on the bureau system so you have in the bank,
4 you have two big accounts which subsequently become
5 one big account with two subaccounts, like we had
6 one GMCT and one GMG prior to that date. And again
7 I am just going from pure memory and then that they
8 become effectively, in the balance sheet of the
9 bank, become one amount which is a GMCT deposit but
10 it has two bureau ledgers.
11 198 Q. So in fact the GMCT Re College would have been a
12 subaccount of the main GMCT pooled account; is that
13 right?
14 A. I honestly don't know. This is not my province. My
15 impression was that there were two, the bureau
16 system contained two sets of subaccounts, one
17 related to the Channel Islands and one related to
18 Cayman. All that happened is that the one that
19 related to the Channel Islands was given a
20 designation GMCT Re College. So from the balance
21 sheet point of view instead of showing an amount
22 which the bank would owe to Guernsey and an amount
23 that the bank would owe to Cayman, the entire amount
24 would now be shown as owed to Cayman.
25 199 Q. Right, I understand. All this was operated by
26 Mr. Collery?
27 A. The bureau system, yes.
28 MS. MACKEY: That is all.
29
60
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you, Mr. Keane, for
2 your attendance we would
3 ask you to sign the transcript when it is made
4 available and Ms. Cummins will get in touch with
5 you.
7 THE HEARING WAS THEN CONCLUDED
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
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VIEW DATE: M&A.C£
H
J5LEVANT COMMENTS FOR
ORATION IN DECISION MEMO.
- - m u e d Overleaf) :
TO: BRENDAN DONNELLY.
FROM: PAT O'DWYER.
RE : SELIMA INVESTMENTS LIMITED : "ACCOUNT NO. 07318006,
INTEREST 18/9/84 : Stg: £486,248'.00
Stg: £ 25,165*83. £511,413.83. Stg
Please arrange to change name of the above account to :

Montoire Limited.
16 Claybell House,
Somers Close,
Soraers Road,
Reigate, Surrey.
There is a Sterling Loan of £486,248 outstanding and the attached

dividend for IRP £14,437.50 should be credited to the account.
As security for the loan, I have been informed by M.E.O'K. that we are
to hold the attached Share Certificate for 350,000 James Crean Limited
Ordinary Shares - 25p each.
P0D:AB...
11th . September 1984.
tX UudU JU«L JU«A« JU>A» «t« tJb*L«A<
t* •i.-^w w w w v v 4*
ACCOUNT NAME C yRACT DATE : 17SEP84
SELIMA INVESTMENTS LTD ARRANGED BY : PHONE

REFERENCE NO. : 198409173012
ACCOUNT NO. : 73I8006
DEAR SIR,
WE HAVE PLEASURE IN CONFIRMING THE REVERSAL OF OUR LOAN TO YOU AS DETAILED BELOW
PRINCIPAL " ' RATE X P.A. VALUE DATE MATURITY DATE INTEREST AT MATURITY
STG 486,248-00 12*18750000 16APR84 160CT84 29 »711.92
1* <rir<« i•S3.' •
f..: -
. J. i . . • . . » 'Vrf
• .
•*
••
•
S E L I M A îNVESIMENTS LTD"
P.. 0. B O X - 887'.. •
.GRANKQAyHAN.l:
For and on bahalf of
GUINNESS+MAHON LTD
R»nlat»r»Hftffirn-17 Cntlena Grsan. Dublin 5. RanistnmH Mumhor 1f»9R9

MEMO R A N D UM
To: Maurice O'Kelly. 1st October, 1984.

T Tim < > > |
From: Pat O'Dwyer. \
' Loam FILE
IX
Montoire Ltd. - Stg. Loan £511,413.83.
>
I propose issuing a facility letter over the next few days. It was
agreed that Ray McLoughlin would be asked to guarantee the loan on a separate
basis. I phoned him yesterday with this in mind and he asked that I postpone
asking for his guarantee for about a week/ten days. He mentioned to me
that he would like to give the question of the guarantee some consideration
as there was a distinct possibility he might repay the loan in the near future.
You may have more up to date information.
PO'D/SC
MEM ORANDUM
Michael,
You may recall it was agreed that Ray McLoughlin should give
his guarantee to cover the above borrowing. To date I have not received
the guarantee in question. He was, I think, to discuss the position with Maurice
•O'Kelly. Should I write to him forwarding a guarantee for completion and
return?
^ PO'D/SC
Appendix XV (79) (l)(k)
FILE NOTE
Montoire Limited
Stg. Loan £499,827.74
Facility letter issued dated 23rd October, 1984.

I await receiving:- * ••
Copy of facility letter duly signed by authorlsed;signatories.
Copy of Board Resolution authorising borrowing,
x' Blank transfer over 350 James Crean Limited shares.
X" Power of sale over 350 Jarnes Crean Limited shares.
Guarantee fo Ray McLoughlin.
||This loan may have been the subject of further discussion with
Ray McLoughlin, In the meantime however my security remains incomplete.
PO'D/SC
14th December, 1984.
» ^ -
Appendix XV (79) (1) (1)
TO: BRENDAN DONNELLY.
FROM: RU LEONARD.
" JhA
RE: MONTOIRE LIMITED.
The borrowing in the name of the $bove has been switched to Dewdrop
Investments Limited. External Irish Pounds you hold on deposit
in anticipation of interest in April should be identified with the
new borrowing Company.
- v
26th.March 1985.
%
Appendix XV (79) (1) (m)
TO: GUINNESS + MAHON LIMITED,
17, College Graen,
DUBLIN 2
C7ArMCT CZtM L-lw I<ir3

A r p OOP Cg±>cy/Afi<t~L.y P a ,
WHEREAS we, the undersigned, have transferred the above mentioned Shares
^ (which are our property) into the name of your. Nominee Company.
NOW WE HEREBY DECLARE that the said shares are held by you as collateral
and continuing security for all the liabilities of
Urh
to you present and future sole or joint and we undertake to execute such
further transfer or other documents as you may from time to time require to
be signed by us.
Dated the Îp^JUMuvC day of
SIGNED by tteasswc 1V . ^ - (T. S c o t t , D i r e c t o r )

For an4,on behjaK of DEWDROP INVESTMENT LIMITED
in the presence of:
Appendix XV (79) (1) (n)
u,- ..
BANKERS
G U1M M ESS+MAHON LTD
17 CciUga Grtan Dublin 2 P.O. 2o:« S3 A Tel: 796944 (3Q Lines)
Our Raf: PO'D/SC 28th May, 1985.
The Secretary,
Dewdrop Investments Limit ad,
P. O. Box 223,
Plateau Mignot,
Rue des Cornets,
f ^ S t . Peter Port,
Guernsey,
. CHANNEL ISLANDS
Dear Sir,
Following recent discussions we now have pleasure in confirming that

we are prepared to place at your disposal a facility subject to the following
terms and conditions:-
Borrower: Dewdrop Investments Limited.
Amount: Stg.£156,250.00 (One Hundred and Fifty Six Thousand,

Two Hundred and Fifty Pounds) - Sterling.
However, as agreed the funds have been taken up
'oy you in Deutsche Marks i.e. D.M. 611,250.00*
Te. m: In accordance with normal banking practice all
funds taken up are repayable on demand but in
any case not later than 22nd October, 1985.
Purpose: The funds are being placed at your disposal to
assist you taken."up vrights in. the .form: of 87,500 James
Crean Llmlted-0rdinary , ..25p-shares.:.and. £157,500.00 10%
Ordinary Convertible Unsecured:!-Loan. Stock 1995.-
Drawdown: By way of loan account in the name of Dewdrop

Investments Limited. We attach a contract note showing
the'relative details.
Interest: We propose charging interest on the loan at 2%

in excess of the cost to Guinness + Mahon Limited
of taking Deutsche Mark Deposits to 22nd October,
1935. The present effective rate Is therefore 73% per
annum. We shall apply to you for payment of interest
immediately after that date.
/
Security: As security for the loan we shall require the following

share certificates transferred into the name of our
Nominee Company Mars Nominees Limited:-
(a) 87,500 James Crean Limited Ordinary 25p shares.
(b) 157,500 James Crean Limited 10% Convertible Unsecured
Loan Stock 1995.
General: The granting of this facility is conditional upon all
fs security as outlined being completed within 21 days
of the date of this facility letter.
We are pleased to be of assistance to you in this matter.and enclose
( ^herewith a copy of this facility letter for signature by your authorised signatories
-' and return thereby confirming your acceptance of the loan on the terms mentioned.
We shall also require a copy of a Board Resolution authorising the borrowing.
Yours faithfully,
for GUINNESS + MAHON LIMITED.
Pat O'Dwyer,
Banking Manager.
T. R. Leonard,
Banking Manager.
Accepted for and on behalf of

DEWDROP INVESTMENTS LIMITED
// /
T. Scott
n 1 1 - 0 0 + - r-> V
Appendix XV (79) (1) (o)
M GUINNESS+MAHON LTD
a p
Colljga Gaaa Cuolin 2 P.O. Box 5 5 A Tel: 796944 (30 Unas)
i- P•
uur 4th September, 1985.
•Mr. Paddy Meagher,

Jaoies Crean Limited,
2, Weili :on Road,
DU3LJM 4
Dewdrop Investments LtcL/Malmaison Ltd.
Dear Sir,
\ -
Furt'ier to your telephone request, we wish to confirm that on the

6th August, 1935 we broke the above Deutsche Mark loan accounts in advance
of their maturity dates. The cost of switching into the ECU currency amounted
to D.iVLIO,499,34 which is made up as follows:-
Dewdrop Investments Limited
Loan D.M. 1,372,471.03
This loan was drawn down on 22nd April, 1935 for a period of six months to
22nd October, 1935 at a cost base of 6 1/3% p.a. As the loan was broken
on the 6th August, 1935 w e could only relend the funds to 22nd October, 1985 at
4^% p.a, which resulted in a loss to us of 1 3/8% p.a. A charge of D.M.'s5,506.88
^ w a s due on DAL'si,872,471.03 for 77 days at 1 3/8% p.a.
... Loan D,M.611,250.00.
This loan was drawn down on the 27th May,- 1935 for a-period of approximately
," five months to 22nd October, 1935 at a cost, base of-53%,-p.a. : As the loan was
broken on 8th. August,'• 1935 we could only-re-lend:the. funds to 22ndOctober,.
.1935 at 43% p.a. which resulted in. a loss to us of. i% p.a. - -vA; charge of D.M.1,307.40
was due on D.M. 811,250.00 for 77 days at 1% p.a.
Malmaison Limited
Loan D.M.1,380,839.28
This loan was drawn down on 10th April, 1985 for a period of six months to
I0;:h October, 1935 at a cost base of 6i% p.a. As the loan was broken on 6th
August, 1935 we could only re-lend the funds to 10th October, 1985 at 43% which
resulted in a loss to us of p.a. A charge of D.M.3,685.06 was due on
D.M.1,360,639.28 for 65 days"at li% p.a.
/
Tims: M«s. CuClln. THJ:<: 2S"C5. Non-Saceuiiw Olrrcrcr;: J.H. Cuinnca ICMalrmsn). J.C. Lov« Jnr., H_A. Won on IBritltfll.O.T. O'Connor,
A Of/iea: t 7 C;:|I.:<J., Ofajo, OuUlin 2 B.A. Urall lariihn).
Mumbac 10S33. Eacajiiw Qlrccian: J. OaancjiU "myncftOccuiY CJwlrmenl,Ma>"'>43a'KoJly (Wirtoqinfl), &»mk G. McClwno.
Gjra'.D CJ. McOscicii ISOCM"./..! * »»•-»—• • »-
To msec :he cccal char,'? of D.M. 10,499.34 two loan accounts were opened on
.ha 20ch A u g - c , 1985 v-iue 6ch Augusc, 1935 at 63% p.a. as follows:-
Dewdrc; investments Limited - D.M.6,814.23 - which is made up of D.M.5,506.88 and

D.M. 1,307.40.
Malmaison Limited - D.M.3,685.06
On 8 t h A u g u s t , 1935 the loans were switched in ECU's as follows:-
. Loan - D.M.!,872,471.03
Interest - D.M. 44,796.27
D.M.1,917,267.30 <P 2.2260 = ECU's 8£1,306.06.
Loan - D.M. 811,250.00

Interest - D.M. 9,342.79
D.M. 620,592.79 ©2.2260 ^ ECU's 278,792.81
• \
...Malmaison Limited
Loan - D.M.1,360,839.28
interest - D.M. 36,793.95
D.M.1,397,433.23 ® 2.2260 = ECU's 627,777.73.
The above loans were drawn for a period of one week to 13/8/85 at U% p.a.
{2% over cost of funds).
On the 13 th August, 1935 the loans were drawn for a further week to 20/8/85
at 11 1/8% p.a., the balances being as follows:-
Dewdrop -Investments Limited - ECU's 863,148.30

Dewdrop Investments Limited - ECU's 279,389.12
Malmaison Limited - ECU's 629,120.48
When the three loans matured on 20th August, 1985 they were switched to
U.S.$ as follows:-
Dewdrop Investments Limited - ECU's 885,015.46 at .8065 » US.$697,634.97

Dewdrop Investments Limited - ECU's 279,993.49 at .8065Û.S.$225,814.75
Malmaison Limited -ECU's 630,481.39 at .8065' = U.S;$508,483.24
The loans were drawn for a period of one week to 27th August, 1985 at 10 1/8% p.a*
On !H.:h A i r r - ; 1 9 3 5 we received at our London Office Stg.£I19,553.56. These
:'uncc ••:•<•-tc^ placed cn deposit account to 27/3/35 at Ui% p.a. to meet the loans
a: ;T,3:uri;;/. On27:n Au.sust, 1335 we converted the principal plus interest of
•5c?.iU.r i 3o7.30 to U.S..S at 1.3370 and credited the resulting U.S.$167,595.16
co tna Dev/J.-cp investments Limited loan account.
On e.-.e 27ch August, 1935 the loans opened to meet the charges in respect of
switching cur-encies on the 6 / 3 / 3 5 in advance of the maturity dates were
transferred to the principal loan accounts as follows:-
Dewdrop Investments - Loan D.M.6,314.23
D.M.5,505,;}3 plus accrued interest of D.M.21.63 = D.M.5,528.56 at 2.7580 - U.S.$2,004 55

D.M.1,307,40 plus accrued interest of D.M. 5.15 = D.M. 1,312.55 at 2.7580 - U.S.$ 475*91
Malmaison Limited
* D.M.3,835,06 plus accrued interest of D.M.14.51 = D.M.3,699.57 at 2.7580 • U.S.$I,341.40
'.The position on the three loan accounts as at 27/8/35 was as follows:-
Dewdrop Investments
Principal plus interest to 2 7 / 3 / 3 5 U.S.$699,008.44

less proceeds of Deposit Account U.S.$167,595.16
U.S.$531,413.28
Penalty charge U.S.$ 2,004.55
U.S. $533,417.83
Principal plus interest to 2 7 / 3 / 8 5 U.S. $226,259.32

Penalty charge U.S.$ 475.91
U.S.$226,735.23
Malmaison Limited
Principal plus .interest to 2 7 / 8 / 8 5 U.S. $509,484.32

Penalty charge U.S.$" 1,341.40
U.S.$ 510,825.72
The above loans w e r e ] e x t e n d e d for a week to 3/9/85 at 10%.p.a.
On the 3/9/85 the loans were extended to 5 / 9 / 8 5 at 10% p.a. as-"follows:-
Dewdrop Investments Limited U.S.$534,455.03

Dewdrop Investments Limited U.S.$227,176.10
Malmaison Limited U.S.$511,818.99
When the loans mature on the 5th September, 1985 they will be switched to
ECU's as follows:-
Dewdrop Investments Limited. U.S.$534,751.95 at .7803 = ECU's 685,315.84
Dewdrop Investments Limited U.S.$227,302.31 at .7803 = ECU's 291, 301.18
Malmaison Limited U.S.$512,103.33 at .7803 - ECU's 656,290.31
The loans will then be drawn to 10.9.85 at 10 3/8 p.a.
We enclose for your records deal slips and statements in respect of the foregoing.
If you are unclear of any matter please do not hesitate to revert.
Yours faithfully,
for GUINNESS + MAHON LIMITED.
.Brendan Donnelly.
Appendix XV (79) (1) (p)
go 2 Wellington Road,
D u b l i n
January 1986
Mr Pat O'Dwyer
Guinness & Mahon
17 College Green
Dublin 2
.. Dear Pat
K mentioned to you that there was one urgent matter that I would like to
;discuss with you.
It is the matter of arranging a borrowing on behalf of my brother toJânce
the purchase of some Crean convertible Loan stock which would be issued- under
a placing to take place in the next few days.
Yours sincerely
R J McEoughlin
Appendix XV (79) (1) (q)
NOTE
to
PAT O'DWYER
of
GUINNESS & MAHON LTD

1. .ACQUISITION A21D PLACING BY CR2AN
la tha na:ct fav days CS2A3 will be announcing that agreement has been
raached Co acquire a business in the U.S. which manufactures and
markets its own brands of prepared frozen meals.
Tha purchase price will be $35m and a placing will be arranged in

conjunction with tha approval of the deal by Crean's "shareholders.
Tha placing will raise IS£10m, half by the issue of new of ordinary
sharas and hair by the issue of new 10% redeemable convertible 1995 Loan
Stock.
It is expected that the placing price for the ordinary shares will be
:' about 2.60p per share and that the placing price for the Loan Stock will
j be about £.107.5 per £100 nominal value.
Information in relation to the acquisition is set out in Appendices (2),

(3) and (4) and the effects of the acquisition on Crean are set out in
Section (9).
2. THE PRESENT POSITION OF MY BROTHER
Holding 488 N.V. Loan Stock

Present Unit Value fc's 125
Present Total Value £000's 610
Borrowings (approx. ) 160
•4.' NET-POSITION 450
3. HIS OBJECTIVE
Ha Tjould like to arrange a further borrowing from G.& M towards the

purchasa of additional Loan Stock to be issued under the placing.
I an not sure if he has an existing undrawn facility or whether that
facility has lapsed.
At one stage borrowings under his facility were at a level of about
[ £6/700,000.
-a would lika to purchase of the order of £.5m to £.75m.
Sa -would like ycu -o consider whether that would be possible and what
tha tarsia of that facility would be.
Sa would act be proposing to put up any cash towards the purchase of the
Loan Stock on tha basis that there is considerable cover available to
the Bank ac tha moment in ralation to the cover ratid which was deemed
satisfactory to tha Bank at the time of first arranging the present
facility and chat tha surplus cover would be used as the risk capital
involved in tha new purchase.
ASSET AMD C0V2R POSITION IF A PURCHASE WERE COMPLETED
Assumptions
(i) For tha purposes of calculation assume that G & M would lend an
additional £.75m towards the purchase of additional Loan Stock.
(ii) Assume that tha additional Loan Stock would be purchased at
£107.5 so that tha £.75m would purchase new Loan Stock of
£693,000 Nominal Value.
Assets, Borrowings, Cover
His total holding of Loan Stock would be Nominal Value £1.187m.
Tha market value of the Loan Stock immediately after the transaction
would be of the order of £1.483m.
His tofcal borrowings would be approximately £.91m.
Accordingly the loan "would be covered 1.63 times.
IHC0H5 gosrrioa
Tha yiald on the Loan Stock will be IPS and therefore the net income
would be approximately £77,000 p.a.
This would service an average interest cost of 8.5Z p.a.
Once there would be a re-alignment within the EMS he would propose to

borrowing in DM's and tha prospective yield of 8.5X would probably be
more than enough to pay DM interest rates.
Ix tha total yiaid vara not sufficient to pay the interest charges at
any time ha would propose to meat tha short-fall through Belling some of
tha Loar. Stack.
6. PRINCIPAL 1Z31-IS 07 LOAN STOCK
The principal tarms of the Loan Stock are set out in Appendix (1),
/-s
i.,; 7. COMPANY POLICY TOWARD LOAN STOCK
It is likely that it will be Company Policy not to redeem Loan Stock

until tha redemption date of 1995.
However it is likely that the company would issue redemption notice in
tha circumstance where it foresaw a slide in share price either due to
sluggish trading conditions or an impending recession or a prospective
slide in Stock Market indices.
It would do this in order to trigger conversion and thereby maximise Its
equity base and its safety net in anticipation of the possibility of
more difficult times ahead.
In order to be in a position to Issue redemption notice at any time it
will'be company policy also to maintain a sufficient surplus of cash to
be in a position to finance redemption should all Loan Stock holders opt
for redemption rathar than conversion.
8. ATTRACTIONS 01 HOLDING LOAN STOCIC
(i) Its capacity to service debt is much higher than in the case of
ordinary shares.
(ii) Tha risk is lower. In particular the following can be said:-
(a) Tha likely company policy as described under (7) above

means that if more difficult times were foreseen the
prospect for the holders of Loan Stock would be that he
would be able to convert and sell at a price higher than
tha redemption price or at worst would be able to secure
tha redemption price.
(o) • Tha Loan. 3.:ccit in this caaa would be redeemable at
ii. 1'37-j which vould be £.277a in excess of his
bo crowiag3.
(iii) All of the above attractions are available without sacrifice to

tha prospact of tha Capital Appreciation applicable to ordinary
shares.
(iv) The abova attraccious are also available without a relative
sacrifice of liquidity. Because over 70% of Crean shareholders
are institutional and because Loan Stock, may be converted to
ordinary shares at any time from June 1938 it is the opinion of
our Brokers, J fi E Davy, that there would be a ready market for
significant blocks of Loan Stock at short notice.
(v) Blocks of Loan Stock could be sold without disturbing the
ordinary share market and this would be particularly important.
9
' IMPACT OF AcquisITIOM OM CREAM
9.1 Balance Sheat Assumptions

(i) The expected financing of the acquisition is as follows
(a) contribution from CREAN $10m
<b) long term low interest loan from.Hew York $ 5m
<c) Ions term non-recourse loan in the U.S........$20m
(ii) Assume that there will be a placing in Ireland raising

' £10m worth of cash.
(iii) Assume a conversion rate of $1.22 per IR£1.
9.2 Approximate Pro Forma Balance Sheet
A pro-farma consolidated balance sheet comprising the Crean

Balance Sheet at December 1984 adjusted for the Rights Issue of
last Hay, tha planned placing 'and the acquisition would be as
follows
IRfOOO's
1JSZL ASSETS 23,000
ASSOCIATE COMPANY 3,020
CASH 12,039
SET CURRENT ASSETS (exc Cash & Bank) 13,013.
INTANGIBLE ASSETS 12,318
TOTAL ASSETS 63,390
BANK LOAMS
Short-Term 6,177
Long-Term 17,213
(23,390)
40,000
FINANCED BY
Loan N.Y. State 4,920
Convertible Stock 10,137
Shareholders Funds 25,943
40,000
9.3 •Impact on Profits and•Earnings:per Share

If the acquired company" acquires .the-'expected^profits l e v e l s i n
1936 and i f the financing i s as per (9.1) above and If Crean as
it is BOW constituted achieves i t s profit expectation for 1986
tha estimated o u t - t u r n on a f u l l - y e a r basis for 1986 i s : -
PRE TAZ PROFITS IR£7.75m

AFTER TAX PROFITS IR£6.00m
Following the placing the number of ordinary shares on i s s u e
would be 16.2m. Therefore the estimated EARNINGS PER SHAKE
level would be approximately 37 pence.
This compares with 20.6p in 1984 and an estimated 21..Op in

1935.
9.4 Iraoaci: on Share Price
Tha presant 3hara price i3 295 pence. This reflects a P/E Q f

14.0 in relation to the probable underlying rate of after-tax
earnings.
This rating is on the high side due to the expectation of
'action' In the U.S. and although a high rating is likely to be
maintained for soma time following this acquisition it is more
likaly to gat lowar than to get higher (assuming market
conditions remain the same).
I expect it to settle down at around to 13.
On the basis of that expectation the share price related to the

prospective EPS of 37.Op. would be about 450p per share.
This assumes:-
that the institutional market likes the deal
that Stock Market as a whole remains unchanged
that there are no unexpected set-backs or surprises

anywhere..
In the circumstance where all these conditions would be met it
would take some time for the share price to respond to the
higher prospective earnings levels but it should have responded '
to a fair degree within 6 months.
INFORMATION RE FREEZER QUEEN
APPENDIX (2) sets out the Profit .& Xoss . information .which has been,
obtained from the Reporting •'Accountants.
APPENDIX <3) sets a note about the Asset/Liability position.
APPENDIX (4) contains a note in relation to the Freezer Queen business.

Appendix XV (79) (1) (r)
Ray McLoughlin ("R.McL'Vlames Crean pic ("Crean").
I
*
Present Position
At the present time our involvement with the above is as follows:-
oan G. Connelly £554,970.00 Guaranteed by Crean.

- ,-Almaison Limited ' £681,547.00 Unsecured Note.
Oewdrop Investments Ltd. £121,832.00 Stg. Secured by £488k Nominal Crean Loan Stock
held to our order (M.V. £610k).
Note
It has been proposed that Malmaison be guaranteed by Crean and that RMcL would
take over the guarantee of the Connolly loan. R-McL's net worth estimated at £2.5m+.
Proposal
We lend Dewdrop additional £.75m in connection with a $35m acquisition by Crean In
the U.S.A. financed as follows:-
ng - term loan New York $5m

Ncm Recourse Loan U.S. $20m
.i-ntribution from Crean '$10m
. Is proposed that Crean raise £10m through -a placing of shares/loan -stock. • Assuming
purchase price- of £107.5 for loan stock-the Loan.of ••£0.75m "will .purchase £698k NominaL
This will bring total borrowings of Dewdrop to !R£.91m; to-be secured on the loan stock
of Nominal 1.87 estimated Market Value £1.483m, giving cover of 1.63*
MCK/SC t
15th January, 1986.
Appendix XV (80) Mr Patrick McNamee
Patrick McNamee.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Patrick McNamee dated 21 November 2000.
b) Statement of Mr Patrick McNamee dated 5 October 2000.
c) Letter of 11 May 1990 - Martin Lanigan-O'Keeffe to JD Traynor.
d) Letter of 8 April 1991 - Martin Lanigan O'Keeffe to JD Traynor.
^ e) Letter of 19 July 2000 - Fyffes pic to Mr Patrick McNamee.
f) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of executive directors meeting of 5

July 1988.
g) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo of 5 July 1988.
h) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo of 5 July 1988.
i) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo of 5 July 1988.
j) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo of 5 July 1988.
k) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo of 5 July 1988.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Patrick McNamee.
a) Letter of 17 January 2002 - Dillon Eustace Solicitors to the Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. PATRICK McNAMEE
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 21ST NOVEMBER 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MS. MACKEY BL
MR. ROWAN FCA
Interviewee: MR. PATRICK McNAMEE
Represented by: MR. RAYMOND FULLAM SC
MS. NIAMH LOUGHRAN
DILLON EUSTACE
1 UPPER GRAND CANAL
STREET
DUBLIN 4
I N D E
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. P. McNAMEE MS. MACKEY
MR. ROWAN
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 21ST NOVEMBER 2000:
5 MS. MACKEY: Good morning, Mr. McNamee.
6 MR. McNAMEE: Morning.
7 MS. MACKEY: Just to introduce
8 ourselves: I am
9 Noreen Mackey and this is Paul Rowan and our
10 solicitor Mary Cummins. We are two of the
11 Inspectors appointed by the High Court together with
12 Judge Declan Costello, who is not here today.
13
14 This is an interview. It is not a Court or a
15 Tribunal. It is however an interview under oath.
16 If at any stage during the proceedings you want to
17 take advice from either your counsel or your
18 solicitors just tell us and we will stop and allow
19 you to do so.
20 MR. McNAMEE: Yes.
21 MR. MACKEY: Or if any of your legal
22 advisors wish to stop to
23 consult with you they can say so and we will stop.
24 MR. McNAMEE: Okay, thank you.
25 MS. MACKEY: We generally take a break
26 of about ten minutes for a
27 cup of tea or coffee at around eleven if we have not
28 finished our interview by then.
29 MR. McNAMEE: Yes, okay.
4
1 MS. MACKEY: And we invite you to have
2 a cup. Now Ms. Cummins
3 will administer the oath.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. PATRICK McNAMEE, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY:
5 MR. FULLAM: Before you start can I
6 just for the record say
7 that we are not here voluntarily although we have
8 submitted a statement and so forth.
9 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes, we understand that.
10 Thank you. Mr. McNamee,
11 you sent us in a statement. Do you have a copy of
12 it with you today?
13 A. I do.
14 2 Q. Because I think we might just go through part of
15 that?
16 A. Okay.
17 3 Q. And that will speed up matters I think?
18 A. Yes, fine.
19 4 Q. We might just get clarification on certain aspects
20 of it?
21 A. Yes.
22 5 Q. However, just for the record, before we start you
23 have told us in your statement a little bit about
24 your background. I think, to get it on transcript
25 here now, we might just repeat a little bit of it.
26 You are a former Managing Director of FII, is that
27 not correct?
29 6 Q. And also a former Deputy Group Chief Executive?
6
1 A. That is right.
2 7 Q. At present you are retired, is that correct?
4 8 Q. Yes?
5 A. But I am doing some consultancy work.
6 9 Q. For FII?
7 A. Yes, but I haven't being doing it since I have had
8 my heart attack.
9 10 Q. Since you have been ill?
10 A. Since I have been ill.
11 11 Q. Yes, yes. At the moment you are to all intense and
12 purposes retired?
13 A. Yes, I am retired.
14 12 Q. Yes?
15 A. And I retired from the Board three years ago.
16 13 Q. Yes?
17 A. So, I have not been actively involved. Anything I
18 have been doing in the consultancy end has not
19 really been anything much to do with the running of
20 the Company at all.
21 14 Q. I see?
22 A. Or anything.
23 15 Q. I see. You are not at the moment a non-executive
24 Director?
25 A. No.
26 16 Q. No?
27 A. I am not connected at all other than this little bit
28 of consultancy work that I had been doing and --
29 well, they haven't taken me off the books yet but I
7
1 don't know.
2 17 Q. All right. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. McNamee.
3 If we can look -- I do not think your statement is
4 numbered; the pages of it. If we look at the third
5 page in your statement (EXHIBIT 1)?
6 A. Yes, right, all right.
7 18 Q. Where you tell us a little bit about this payment
8 that you received from FII in 1985?
9 A. Yes.
10 19 Q. Yes. I would like to just go through that in a
11 little more detail. You say first of all that the
12 Company agreed to pay you in 1985 this £100,000 as a
13 reward for the contribution that you had made to the
14 Company?
15 A. Yes.
16 20 Q. How was this decision arrived at? How did you first
17 learn of it? Was it a decision which you were
18 involved in yourself?
19 A. Yes. Well, at that time I was -- I would have been
20 Managing Director of the Company at that particular
21 period and I had been very deeply involved in the
22 Company.
23 21 Q. Yes?
24 A. Not from the beginning but for a considerable number
25 of years and I had put in a lot of work, a lot of
26 effort.
27 22 Q. Yes?
28 A. And I think I was -- things were pretty successful.
29 So, it was a payment -- in some way recognition for
8
1 what I had being doing although in the normal way I
2 would have had my salary and bonus and whatever.
3 23 Q. Yes?
4 A. But it was -- it wasn't -- it was -- I suppose you
5 could almost say like a once off payment in some
6 way.
7 24 Q. Yes?
8 A. And it came from discussions with Neil McCann and
9 myself.
10 25 Q. Yes. In discussions with Mr. McCann you both
11 arrived at this decision whereby -- would that be
12 correct to say?
13 A. Well, I suppose it would be right to say that
14 Mr. McCann arrived at it.
15 26 Q. I see, yes?
16 A. May be...(INTERJECTION).
17 27 Q. Yes?
18 A. May be more than...(INTERJECTION).
19 28 Q. Yes. You were informed then by Mr. McCann
20 during 1985 that he had made this decision.
21 You were involved in the discussions leading up
22 to it?
23 A. Yes .
24 29 Q. However, at some stage the decision was made and
25 Mr. McCann said to you, "Now, you are now going to
26 receive £100,000 in recognition for your services"?
27 A. Yes .
28 30 Q. How did he explain to you that that payment would be
29 made?
1 A. Well, I suppose I was told to go to Guinness & Mahon
2 and the arrangements -- that they would be aware of
3 what the arrangements were.
4 31 Q. Right. Can I just stop you there?
5 A. Yes.
6 32 Q. Was it Mr. McCann who told you to go?
7 A. Well, it was either Mr. McCann or Carl McCann.
8 33 Q. Carl McCann?
9 A. Yes.
10 34 Q. Yes?
11 A. Carl McCann would have been Financial Director.
12 I am pretty sure he was Financial Director at that
13 time.
14 35 Q. Yes?
15 A. And he was a son of Neil McCann.
16 36 Q. Yes?
17 A. So, I wouldn't really have been -- this discussion
18 would have taken place with them.
19 37 Q. Yes?
20 A. And one or either of them would have sent me over to
22 38 Q. Yes. Why was it done that way? I mean why did you
23 have to go to Guinness & Mahon?
24 A. Well, it wouldn't -- it certainly wasn't the usual
25 way.
26 39 Q. Yes?
27 A. Or it wouldn't be the way it would normally be done.
28 40 Q. Yes?
29 A. I don't know. I had -- I suppose the fact that
10
1 perhaps, as I would have looked at it then, it
2 wasn't just a normal thing. It was something
3 special that I would imagine may have been just
4 for myself.
5 41 Q. Yes?
6 A. Because of -- I at that stage was many many years
7 already in the Company.
8 42 Q. Yes?
9 A. And they were dealing, the Company was dealing,
10 with Guinness & Mahon.
11 43 Q. Yes?
12 A. And when I went to Guinness & Mahon then somebody
13 in Guinness & Mahon, whom I just don't
14 know...(INTERJECTION).
15 44 Q. Yes?
16 A. I would have rang them.
17 45 Q. Yes?
18 A. Put me in touch...(INTERJECTION).
19 46 Q. Just before we get on to when you actually went
20 there?
21 A. Yes .
22 47 Q. I am still trying to get clear why you went there or
23 why the arrangement was made in this way rather than
24 lodging money into your bank account. Did you have
25 a bank account in Guinness & Mahon at that time?
26 A. No, no. I had done some business with
27 Guinness & Mahon but it was always loans.
28 48 Q. Yes?
29 A. I never actually had any deposits.

1 49 Q. Yes?
2 A. I had a bank account all right but it was used
3 for loans.
4 50 Q. A loan account?
5 A. Not for... (INTERJECTION) .
6 51 Q. That was in Guinness & Mahon? You personally had a
7 loan account in Guinness & Mahon?
8 A. I had some loan accounts. It wasn't the bank that I
9 was doing my main business with.
10 52 Q. I see?
11 A. But I did have some because it was convenient
12 enough. It was near where I was working.
13 53 Q. Right?
14 A. And I had some loans.
15 54 Q. Yes?
16 A. With them over a period.
17 55 Q. I see. At that particular time did you have these
18 loans?
19 A. Do you know I don't know.
20 56 Q. I see?
21 A. I don't know that.
22 57 Q. Were these the loans that you...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. I think I had already been doing a little business
24 with them at that stage.
25 58 Q. Yes?
26 A. But the loans that I had got were all arranged at
27 that time through Martin Keane.
28 59 Q. Yes?
29 A. And Martin Keane would have -- that would have been
12
1 a separate thing all together to this.
2 60 Q. Perhaps, you might just go backwards a little bit
3 and you might tell me just how you first personally
4 began to do business with Guinness & Mahon prior to
5 this arrangement with the Company?
6 A. Around that time and I am not even certain that it
7 was before this.
8 61 Q. Right?
9 A. But I would have known Guinness & Mahon.
10 62 Q. Yes?
11 A. But I wouldn't -- I never really was a financial
12 person in the Company.
13 63 Q. Yes?
14 A. So, I would just know them; not necessarily from
15 doing Company business with them.
16 64 Q. Yes?
17 A. Because as it happened I would never have done
18 any Company business.
19 65 Q. Yes?
20 A. With Guinness & Mahon at all.
21 66 Q. How would you know them?
22 A. Just I remember a case of me being invited, I think
23 it would be a normal thing to do, to go to lunch.
24 67 Q. Yes?
25 A. With some of the people in Guinness & Mahon simply
26 because I was a Director of Fyffes.
27 68 Q. With FII, yes?
28 A. Or FII as it was then.
29 69 Q. Yes. You are unsure whether your own personal
13
1 relationship had begun prior to this?
2 A. I am unsure.
3 70 Q. Yes?
4 A. But I am unsure but it would have been around that
5 particular...(INTERJECTION).
6 71 Q. Time?
7 A. Time and, I am trying to think now, it may have been
8 a little before this.
9 72 Q. Yes?
10 A. But it had nothing -- that wouldn't necessarily have
11 anything to do with...(INTERJECTION).
12 73 Q. Yes?
13 A. Why I was going to Guinness & Mahon here.
14 74 Q. Yes?
15 A. I went to Guinness & Mahon because I was told.
16 75 Q. Because you were...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. That the arrangement was there but it would not have
18 anything got to do with my ties there.
19 76 Q. Right. We might come back to that in a moment.
20 There was no question of Fyffes having lodged money
21 to an account in your name in Guinness & Mahon for
22 you, was there?
23 A. Well, I went to Guinness & Mahon and when I went
24 to Guinness & Mahon I was put in touch with
25 Padraig Collery.
26 77 Q. When you went there who did you ask to see?
27 A. I rang -- I can't remember.
28 78 Q. Yes?
29 A. I just can't remember who I was told to ring. I
14
1 should say that I had been an extremely hard worker.
2 79 Q. Yes?
3 A. And my work and my travels was -- I was very very
4 full time. I was doing many many hours.
5 80 Q. Yes, that is obvious from your statement?
6 A. And I suppose it is true to say that I was possibly
7 a little bit careless from my own point of view
8 because I was putting so much time and I just don't
9 remember who I was told but I was told to get in
10 touch with somebody in Guinness & Mahon.
11 81 Q. Yes?
12 A. I don't know who that was.
13 82 Q. Right?
14 A. It obviously would have been somebody at a highish
15 level.
16 83 Q. A highish level?
17 A. In Guinness & Mahon.
18 84 Q. Can you remember...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. But who it was I am not absolutely certain of.
20 85 Q. Can you remember what you said to that person when
21 you contacted them? How did you make yourself known
22 or what did you describe your business with them to
23 be?
24 A. Well, they would have been aware I am sure that I
25 was ringing them.
26 86 Q. Yes?
27 A. Because I was told that Guinness & Mahon would
28 deal with it.
29 87 Q. Yes?
15
1 A. So, they would have been aware I was ringing.
2 So, there wouldn't have been a problem.
3 88 Q. I see?
4 A. And perhaps they also knew that I was McNamee.
5 89 Q. Who you were, yes?
6 A. And I was in FII.
7 90 Q. Yes, of course. Any way you were put in touch with
8 Padraig Collery?
9 A. With Padraig Collery.
10 91 Q. Did you then meet him or did you phone him or what?
11 A. Met him.
12 92 Q. You met him?
13 A. I had never known him before.
14 93 Q. Did you meet him in Guinness & Mahon?
15 A. I met him in Guinness & Mahon.
16 94 Q. Yes?
17 A. I met him in Guinness & Mahon.
18 95 Q. Yes?
19 A. And he was aware of what the situation, you
20 know...(INTERJECTION).
21 96 Q. Yes?
22 A. What I was there about.
23 97 Q. Yes. What did he tell you?
24 A. And I can't -- I just can't recall.
25 98 Q. Yes?
26 A. I don't know how the money was paid into
28 99 Q. Yes.
29 A. I just don't know. I can't recall how it was
16
1 paid in but he was aware.
2 100 Q. Yes?
3 A. Of what the situation was.
4 101 Q. Yes?
5 A. And that he dealt with it if you like from there on
7 102 Q. At that first meeting what was the purpose of this
8 meeting? Was he to explain to you how much money
9 was there; what was there; how it was to be used?
10 What was the first meeting?
11 A. No, he just said he would -- well, he was aware.
12 103 Q. Yes?
13 A. Of what was there and he said, "Oh, yes, I know
14 about that and I have an account open for you here
15 and there would be —"...(INTERJECTION).
16 104 Q. An account?
17 A. Well, he said "I hope".
18 105 Q. Yes?
19 A. Yes, obviously an account.
20 106 Q. Yes?
21 A. I can't remember exactly his words.
22 107 Q. Yes?
23 A. And at that particular time there was -- you see
24 there was something concerning £40,000 or £50,000.
25 The deal that I had — not the deal.
26 108 Q. Yes?
27 A. The arrangement that I had.
28 109 Q. Yes?
29 A. Was a net payment of £100,000.
17
1 110 Q. Yes?
2 A. And there is a little bit, not very much but there
3 is a little bit, of confusion concerning £10,000.
4 111 Q. Yes, I was wondering about that from your statement?
5 A. Well, that is why there was a little confusion. The
6 figure was £100,000.
7 112 Q. Yes?
8 A. And I -- my accountant has spoken with what is now
9 Fyffes.
10 113 Q. Yes?
11 A. Has spoken with Fyffes concerning that.
12 114 Q. Yes?
13 A. And they don't-- I think there isn't any doubt
14 except it was -- it appears to have been -- I would
15 appear to have got those payments in a £40,000 and a
16 £10,000, which I could have done.
17 115 Q. Right?
18 A. But I can't recall getting it. The only thing I do
19 know is it was -- the first part of the payment was
20 £50,000.
21 116 Q. Right. May be we will go into that. How did you
22 know that the payment was divided into two sections
23 or two parts? The entire £100,000 was not lodged at
24 the beginning, is that correct?
25 A. That is what I believe was the case. It
26 wasn't...(INTERJECTION).
27 117 Q. How do you believe that?
28 A. But I should say, because my accountant would have
29 told me from some of this information, the money is

1 correct. The amount of money is correct.
2 118 Q. Yes?
3 A. And everything I am telling you is absolutely
4 correct.
5 119 Q. Yes?
6 A. But some of that information as regards dates.
7 120 Q. Yes?
8 A. Would have come from the Company.
9 121 Q. Right?
10 A. Because I wouldn't have any record.
11 122 Q. Right.
12 A. Of the dates myself.
13 123 Q. I see.
14 A. So, I believe it came in two parts but it may have
15 come in three parts. There may have been a £40,000
16 and a £10,000.
17 124 Q. Yes?
18 A. But the amount of money is accurate.
19 125 Q. Yes?
20 A. I am not exactly sure the way the payments came.
21 126 Q. Yes. You mentioned there your accountant. Your
22 accountant has been in contact with the Company
23 about this, is that...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. Got information from the Company.
25 It...(INTERJECTION).
26 127 Q. About the way in which it was lodged?
27 A. No, no, not the way it was lodged. When I got the
28 payments.
29 128 Q. When you say when you got them: What do you mean
19
1 by when you got them? When it was lodged in
2 Guinness & Mahon or when you withdrew them?
3 A. When it was -- they knew it was in Guinness & Mahon.
4 I don't really know whether they know any more than
5 that but I don't see that they do. I don't see how
6 they do or why they would need to know.
7 129 Q. Your accountants?
8 A. My accountant.
9 130 Q. Yes. However, they have spoken to somebody in
10 Fyffes, is that right?
11 A. They would have got as much information from Fyffes
12 as they could as regards that.
13 131 Q. Yes?
14 A. The dates of the payments because I had no record
15 myself.
16 132 Q. Yes?
17 A. And I would not be...(INTERJECTION).
18 133 Q. Who are your accountants, Mr. McNamee?
19 A. KPMG.
20 134 Q. And who...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. John Bradley is the person.
22 135 Q. John Bradley. Who would he have spoken to in
23 Fyffes?
24 A. Well, he would have spoken with I suppose the
25 financial person, the accountants. One of the
26 accountants in Fyffes who he would have spoken to.
27 136 Q. The accountants at the moment?
28 A. The accountants at the moment.
29 137 Q. Yes?
20
1 A. But I am not sure the accountant at the moment may
2 have been also an accountant then. I think he would
3 have spoken to a Frank Gernon. That is who I
4 believe he would have spoken to.
5 138 Q. Frank?
6 A. Gernon.
7 139 Q. G?
8 A. G-e-r-n-o-n, and he is presently Financial Director.
9 140 Q. And would he have been...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. But at that stage he would -- at this stage of
11 1985...(INTERJECTION).
12 141 Q. Yes?
13 A. I don't think he would have been probably involved
14 at all.
15 142 Q. How would he know now?
16 A. Well, he would only know whatever he could trace in
17 the books.
18 143 Q. Right. There would be a record of this in Fyffes?
19 A. There would be. I don't know what records they
20 would have as regards where the money came from
21 that was lodged for me.
22 144 Q. Yes?
23 A. I don't necessarily know that they would have that
24 information at this stage.
25 145 Q. Yes?
26 A. They may...(INTERJECTION).
27 14 6 Q. However, they would have a record that the payment
28 was made?
29 A. They would have a record that the payment was made:
21
1 Yes, they would have to have.
2 147 Q. And they must have a record of the fact that it was
3 made in two, at least two, stages?
4 A. Yes, I believe.
5 148 Q. Because they told you?
6 A. I absolutely believe because some of that
7 information had come from them.
8 149 Q. I see?
9 A. To my accountant.
10 150 Q. Yes. Have KPMG been your personal accountants at
11 all times?
12 A. Yes, but John Bradley has been my personal
13 accountant for quite a long time. Originally it was
14 Storey & Phelan and Storey & Phelan was taken over
15 by KPMG a long time ago.
16 151 Q. Yes, yes?
17 A. But John Bradley who deals with me...(INTERJECTION).
18 152 Q. Yes?
19 A. Has not ever had any business dealings with the
20 Company.
21 153 Q. Yes.
22 A. Nor it was — he was...(INTERJECTION).
23 154 Q. At the time when this payment was being made to you
24 did you get advice from your accountants about it?
25 A. No.
27 A. I didn't, no. No, no, I didn't.
28 156 Q. I see. Were they aware of it?
29 A. No.
22
1 157 Q. I see. You had no discussions with anyone from
2 KPMG in connection with it at the time?
3 A. No.
4 158 Q. I see?
5 A. In fact I think I had possibly no discussions
6 with anybody.
7 159 Q. Yes?
8 A. Other than...(INTERJECTION).
9 160 Q. Guinness & Mahon?
10 A. Whatever arrangements...(INTERJECTION).
11 161 Q. Yes?
12 A. Were being made.
13 162 Q. Yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 163 Q. If we can go back then to Mr. Collery in
16 Guinness & Mahon? When you met him on that first
17 occasion in any event he told you he would be
18 looking after it?
19 A. Yes, he told me, yes.
20 164 Q. Yes?
21 A. He was aware of what the situation was.
22 165 Q. Yes?
23 A. And it was...(INTERJECTION).
24 166 Q. Did he tell you just -- sorry, to cut across you but
25 we might shorten this a little bit. Did he tell you
26 it was on deposit or was invested or what did he
27 tell you about it?
28 A. Well, what I assumed was that it was lodged in
23
1 167 Q. However, what did he tell you?
2 A. That it was lodged on my behalf.
3 168 Q. That it was lodged on your behalf?
4 A. Yes.
5 169 Q. However, he did not say where?
6 A. No, I never -- I can absolutely say I never heard
7 of "Ansbacher".
8 170 Q. Yes?
9 A. Until I read about "Ansbacher" in the paper.
10 171 Q. Yes?
11 A. I did understand that it was somewhat may be --
12 I thought it was a Guinness & Mahon account
13 however they were dealing with it inside.
14 172 Q. Did he mention to you the fact that Guinness & Mahon
15 had overseas subsidiaries and that it could be
16 invested with one of those?
17 A. No, he never mentioned that to me.
18 173 Q. He did not mention that?
19 A. No.
20 174 Q. He did not mention to you Guinness Mahon Cayman
21 Trust?
22 A. No.
23 175 Q. Which was the former name of "Ansbacher"?
24 A. No. I had -- I didn't have -- my absolute belief
25 was that that money was lodged in Guinness & Mahon.
26 176 Q. Yes, yes.
27 A. And I was not aware of anything else.
28 177 Q. However, in any event he told you that it was on
29 deposit?
24
2 178 Q. Yes. You understood it would earn interest?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 179 Q. Yes. Did you ask him, or did he volunteer to you,
5 how you could use this? How it could be withdrawn
6 or what you would have to do because apparently you
7 did not, I think I take it from your statement, sign
8 any documents?
9 A. I didn't.
10 180 Q. In regard to the opening of that account?
11 A. No.
12 181 Q. Did that seem strange to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 182 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. I was aware that it was something different than the
16 norm.
17 183 Q. Yes. Did you ask him any questions about that?
18 A. I don't particularly recall asking him any
19 questions, you know? I possibly would have said to
20 him, possibly, "I hope this is all right?"
21 184 Q. Yes?
22 A. Because I didn't have any correspondence,
23 any...(INTERJECTION).
24 185 Q. Documentation?
25 A. Documentation at all.
26 186 Q. Yes?
27 A. I certainly don't ever recall having any. I didn't
28 have any.
29 187 Q. Yes?
25
2 188 Q. And you signed nothing to open an account?
3 A. No, I signed nothing.
4 189 Q. In the light of that then were you not a little
5 worried about how you might withdraw this money
6 if you wanted to do so?
7 A. Well, I withdrew it in cash.
8 190 Q. I know. However, on...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. As I wanted it.
10 191 Q. However, on that occasion, this is the very
11 beginning of this whole arrangement, did you ask
12 him how you would access it if you wanted to;
13 who you should approach; what you would do?
14 A. Well, I always approached him, yes.
15 192 Q. No. However, this...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. If I wanted...(INTERJECTION).
17 193 Q. We are going back now to the very first meeting with
18 him when you would need to clarify for yourself how
19 this was going to work?
20 A. Yes. Well, if I was withdrawing any it would be
21 through him.
22 194 Q. Yes. However, what I want to find out is how you
23 knew that that would be what would happen. At this
24 very first meeting with him where he simply told you
25 that he was looking after it?
26 A. Yes .
27 195 Q. Did he tell you that if you wanted to withdraw it
28 you should go to him?
29 A. He did, yes, absolutely.

1 196 Q. You should go to him and nobody else?
2 A. I would go to him and did go to him.
3 197 Q. Yes?
4 A. For -- I would say throughout the thing.
5 198 Q. Yes. Did he tell you that you should phone him or
6 you should call into him or you should write to him
7 or what?
8 A. Well, what I would have done was any time whenever I
9 wanted...(INTERJECTION).
10 199 Q. No. However, what did he say to you at that stage?
11 A. I would say phone him.
12 200 Q. He said to you to phone him?
13 A. Phone him or contact him.
14 201 Q. Yes?
15 A. Contact him.
16 202 Q. Contact him?
17 A. Yes.
18 203 Q. Right. In fact then you would contact him?
19 A. Yes.
20 204 Q. You could call in or you would phone him?
21 A. I would phone him first.
22 205 Q. Yes, and tell him that you did want to have this?
23 A. Want it, yes.
24 206 Q. Yes. You said a moment ago that you always got
25 it in cash?
26 A. Yes.
27 207 Q. Yes. There was never a bank draft?
28 A. Never.
29 208 Q. Or a lodgement to another bank account of yours?
27
1 A. Always cash.
2 209 Q. Right. You would call in and he would have the
3 cash ready for you?
4 A. He would have the cash ready.
5 210 Q. You say that no account book was given to you, no
6 account number was given to you. How did you keep
7 track of the state of your account?
8 A. I kept track of -- there weren't all that many
9 transactions.
10 211 Q. Yes?
11 A. Because I think -- I know I did say that I withdrew
12 it in usually £5,000.
13 212 Q. Yes?
14 A. May be £10,000 once or twice.
15 213 Q. Yes?
16 A. So, I kept a record myself.
17 214 Q. Yes?
18 A. Now, if you -- I didn't hear you ask me did I have
19 any worries about it. I certainly would have had
20 worries if I went into a Bank just as a stranger off
21 the street but I wouldn't necessarily, or didn't,
22 have it with Guinness & Mahon. How it came about
23 because they were shopping. They were customers --
24 or at least FII were customers of theirs. So, to
25 say was I worried that I would not get it back or
26 something -- may be I should have had that worry but
27 I didn't.
28 215 Q. Yes. However, you say you kept track of the account
29 yourself?
2 216 Q. However, what the interest -- I mean how did you
3 know at any given moment what the balance was or how
4 it was appreciating or...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. The interest in my absolute opinion was very small.
6 That is what I believe; it was small.
7 217 Q. Did Mr. Collery tell you what the interest rate was?
8 A. No, no.
9 218 Q. So how did you know?
10 A. I didn't. It was only that I knew there was some
11 interest added on.
12 219 Q. Right?
13 A. Because occasionally there was interest added on.
14 220 Q. Yes?
15 A. So, I knew that there was a little more came to me
16 other than the...(INTERJECTION).
17 221 Q. Yes. However, what I want to get clear,
18 Mr. McNamee, is how did you know that if Mr. Collery
19 did not tell you?
20 A. Because when I withdrew the money finally I would
21 have withdrew -- I would also have got a little
22 interest -- a little more than what I had.
23 222 Q. Are you talking about your very final withdrawal or
24 as you withdrew from time to time?
25 A. Probably as I withdrew from time to time. I was
26 aware that there was some interest being added on.
27 223 Q. Yes?
28 A. When I was getting the money.
29 224 Q. You see, Mr. McNamee, this is what I do not
29
1 understand. Take the first tranche; there was
2 £50,000 lodged?
3 A. Yes.
4 225 Q. And you say in your statement (EXHIBIT
5 1)...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. Perhaps... (INTERJECTION) .
7 226 Q. That over a period of four or five years you
8 withdrew that in sums of may be £5,000/£10,000?
9 A. Yes.
10 227 Q. Let us suppose that the first withdrawal you made
11 was £5,000?
12 A. Yes.
13 228 Q. So you go and ask Mr. Collery and you say you want
14 to withdraw £5,000. You go in and you get what;
15 £5,000?
16 A. £5,000.
17 229 Q. Why do you say that interest was added on then? I
18 mean that is the £5,000 you asked for. Where do you
19 see the interest?
20 A. I can recall at some stage asking what was the
21 balance that was there.
22 230 Q. That is what I want to get to, yes?
23 A. And there was then a little extra.
24 231 Q. Yes?
25 A. But I never -- until you said to me why I wasn't
26 really concerned about what the interest was.
27 232 Q. Yes?
28 A. I was more...(INTERJECTION).
29 233 Q. So from time to time Mr. Collery would tell you
30
1 the balance?
2 A. Yes, but if...(INTERJECTION).
3 234 Q. If you asked him?
4 A. If I asked him.
5 235 Q. If you asked?
6 A. But it wouldn't be a regular sort of thing.
7 236 Q. I understand. However, now and then you would ask
8 him?
9 A. Yes.
10 237 Q. What state your account was and he would tell you
11 and from that you would see that it had appreciated?
12 A. A little.
13 238 Q. A little, yes. You then say in your statement
14 (EXHIBIT 1):
15
16 "In relation to the second part of the

payment..."
17
18
19 I think we are at the top of the fifth page of your
20 statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 239 Q. You say:
23
24 "In relation to the second part of the

payment (£50,000) I recall that I rang
25 up most likely Padraig Collery in or
around June 1991, as I wanted to
26 withdraw the £50,000..."?
27
28 A. Sorry, excuse me, can I just...(INTERJECTION).
29 240 Q. Yes?
31
1 A. I am sorry. I am on the wrong page.
2 241 Q. May be it is not the fifth page?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 242 Q. Just the top of the page?
5 A. All right.
6 243 Q. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 244 Q. You say that in relation to the second part you rang
9 up Mr. Collery as you wanted to withdraw it; around
10 June 1991?
11 A. Yes.
12 245 Q. Was that second £50,000 in a different account to
13 the first one? You seem to deal with in a different
14 way?
15 A. No. Well, I didn't actually.
16 246 Q. Yes?
17 A. To me it wouldn't have been.
18 247 Q. It was all in the same account?
19 A. Well, yes. I believed it always was
20 Guinness & Mahon and I...(INTERJECTION).
21 248 Q. Yes. However, I mean it was not in another account
22 in Guinness & Mahon?
23 A. No, I would never have understood it to be a -- I
24 didn't think of it...(INTERJECTION).
25 249 Q. In a different account?
26 A. I would never understand it to be in a different
27 account.
28 250 Q. Yes?
29 A. I would take it that it would have been all the one.
32
1 251 Q. At that stage, in 1991, was the first £50,000
2 completely exhausted?
3 A. Yes, and I should say that there is a possibility -•
4 remember I mentioned this £10,000?
5 252 Q. Yes?
6 A. There is a possibility that it was £90,000 that was
7 in the account, whatever the account was, rather
8 than £100,000.
9 253 Q. Yes?
10 A. But I am just not sure of that.
11 254 Q. Yes?
12 A. And if that were the case well that would have
13 meant that I had £10,000 drawn straight away.
14 I don't know what it would mean. The only thing
15 I know is I got £100,000 but I think that there may
16 be -- I say why I think that because that is off
17 information that my accountant had got from the
18 administration -- from FII.
19 255 Q. So...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. Or from Fyffes.
21 256 Q. You say you got £100,000. You mean that in total
22 you withdrew £100,000?
23 A. No, I don't say that. I got £100,000.
24 257 Q. What do you mean by you got it?
25 A. I couldn't remember that perhaps the £10,000 --
26 there was £10,000 that I may have taken straight
27 away.
28 258 Q. I see?
29 A. I may have taken straight away. So there may never

1 -- I just don't know although I do seem to think
2 that if I took it, that is where I got it in
3 Guinness & Mahon, it would still have to have been
4 in the account of £100,000. That
5 is...(INTERJECTION).
6 259 Q. May be I am just very slow?
7 A. I am sorry, no. I am...(INTERJECTION).
8 260 Q. I cannot quite follow this?
9 A. No, it is probably me.
10 261 Q. You say you know you got £100,000?
11 A. That -- yes, but when we talk about a lodgement.
12 262 Q. Yes?
13 A. I don't know that. Perhaps, I got £10,000 straight
14 away.
15 263 Q. You mean...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. So there may only have been £90,000.
17 264 Q. Yes. When you say perhaps you got it straight away:
18 Do you mean that perhaps you got it directly from
19 Fyffes?
20 A. No, but when I went — first went...(INTERJECTION).
21 265 Q. To Padraig Collery?
22 A. To Padraig Collery I could have got it but I don't
23 know.
25 A. No.
26 267 Q. Could you have got it much later?
27 A. No, I wouldn't. I just wouldn't think that.
28 268 Q. The reason I ask is -- if you could just bear with
29 me for one moment I am looking for a document? I am
34
1 sorry, Mr. McNamee, I am just trying to track down a
2 document here I wanted to show you. Maybe we will
3 just come back to that, Mr. McNamee?
4 A. All right.
5 2 69 Q. I cannot track down what I want for the moment. If
6 we could turn on to the next page of your statement
7 (EXHIBIT 1) and to the top of that page where you
8 talk about, you have a heading:
10 "Knowledge of Ansbacher (Cayman)

Limited."
11
12
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 270 Q. You say:
16
17 "I first found out about Ansbacher
(Cayman) Limited when I started reading
18 about it in the newspapers. At no time
whatsoever had I any knowledge that the
19 money had been lodged outside of the
Country. I was of the opinion that I
20 was always dealing with Guinness &
Mahon."
21
22
23 When did you first discover that the money in
24 fact had been lodged outside the Country?
25 A. I don't know that I ever knew that it was lodged
26 outside the Country until Guinness & Mahon had
27 referred something about £50,000 that was -- it was
28 Guinness & Mahon. It was from Guinness & Mahon;
29 just a simple note. There was no details on it.
35
2 A. That my name was given and my name and I have to say
3 I was shocked.
4 272 Q. I see. The first that you heard of any link with
5 "Ansbacher" came when Guinness &
6 Mahon...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Let me know.
8 273 Q. Let you know?
9 A. By a letter.
10 274 Q. I see?
11 A. A very simple letter.
12 275 Q. Yes.
13 A. And I mean that was the absolute first time that I
14 knew.
15 276 Q. Yes?
16 A. That it was out of the Country.
17 277 Q. I see. So that up to that you always thought you
18 were dealing with Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
19 A. I always thought I was dealing with Guinness & Mahon
20 even though at one point, at some stage or another,
21 Padraig Collery would have changed offices.
22 278 Q. Yes?
23 A. But having said that...(INTERJECTION).
24 279 Q. Yes?
25 A. There was no change in speaking with him.
26 280 Q. Yes. When Mr. Collery left Guinness & Mahon in fact
27 you continued to do your business with him in
28 relation to this deposit?
29 A. I did.
36
2 A. Yes, whatever I was doing or any arrangements I
3 would make -- they were made
4 through...(INTERJECTION).
5 282 Q. Through Mr. Collery?
6 A. Through Mr. Collery.
7 283 Q. And at that time did you know that he had left
8 Guinness & Mahon? Did he tell you?
9 A. No. He had changed as far as I knew. I didn't
10 exactly know what the situation was but he always --
11 as far as I was concerned it was Guinness & Mahon.
12 284 Q. Yes?
13 A. And as far as I can know it remained with
15 285 Q. Yes?
16 A. However, it did to the end but I think he
17 told...(INTERJECTION).
18 286 Q. However, Mr. Collery had left Guinness & Mahon?
19 A. I think what he actually told me was -- no, he told
20 me he would be perhaps working from a different
21 office.
22 287 Q. Yes?
23 A. Rather than telling me. I don't know exactly what
24 he told me.
25 288 Q. Yes. Where did you deal with him after he had left?
26 A. On the telephone.
27 289 Q. On the telephone?
28 A. On the telephone.
29 290 Q. Did you call in to see him anywhere? I mean if you
37
1 wanted to get cash how did you get it at that stage?
2 A. If I wanted to get cash I rang him.
3 291 Q. Yes?
4 A. And he made the arrangements.
5 292 Q. Yes?
6 A. For the cash.
7 293 Q. Yes?
8 A. And the arrangement -- the cash was -- on may be
9 one or two occasions the cash was got in an
10 office outside of Guinness & Mahon.
11 294 Q. Yes?
12 A. But as far as I was concerned it was still
14 295 Q. I understand, yes. Can you recollect where
15 that office was?
16 A. I am pretty certain it was Clyde Road.
17 296 Q. Clyde Road?
18 A. I think it was Clyde Road. It was one of those
19 roads.
20 297 Q. In Ballsbridge?
21 A. In Ballsbridge.
22 298 Q. I see, yes?
23 A. But for me it was always done through
24 Padraig Collery.
25 299 Q. Yes. You learnt from Guinness & Mahon itself that
26 in fact your money was outside the Country. At that
27 stage did you learn that it was in fact in Cayman?
28 A. No, the only thing I learned I think from
29 Guinness & Mahon was fairly -- two years ago.
38
2 A. Or fairly recently.
3 301 Q. Yes?
4 A. To say that my name was on a list and had been
5 given to whoever.
6 302 Q. Yes?
7 A. And that was all.
8 303 Q. Yes. That was the first you learned of it?
9 A. I was shocked.
10 304 Q. Yes, yes. Mr. McNamee, you knew your money was
11 earning interest and you have explained to us here
12 in the statement that you did not declare that?
13 A. No.
14 305 Q. However, that you have since entered into
15 negotiations with the Revenue Commissioners?
16 A. Yes.
17 306 Q. Was it your understanding at all times during the
18 course of this deposit that in fact the way in which
19 the business was done; the fact that your name was
20 not mentioned; the fact that you signed no documents
21 and that you contacted Mr. Collery and got the money
22 in cash; that that was for the purpose of in fact
23 concealing this deposit from the Revenue?
24 A. Well, I was aware -- I am certainly aware of the
25 fact that I should have reported...(INTERJECTION).
26 307 Q. Yes?
27 A. Or accounted for the interest, which I didn't, and
28 that is the reason why.
29 308 Q. Yes?
39
1 A. That I am looking after it now.
2 309 Q. I understand that, yes?
3 A. I don't know. The benefits I would have got by not
4 doing it would have been have very very very minimal
5 in comparison to the overall situation that I had
6 been dealing with because throughout my life this
7 was not the way that business was done.
8 310 Q. Of course?
9 A. So I...(INTERJECTION).
10 311 Q. And you made that point; that this was unusual
11 and not the normal way?
12 A. Absolutely unusual. I suppose...(INTERJECTION).
13 312 Q. Why did you think it was being done that way?
14 A. I don't know exactly know why it was being done that
15 way because...(INTERJECTION).
16 313 Q. No. However, why did you think
17 though...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Because it was never done that way before.
19 314 Q. Why did you think it was being done that way at the
20 time?
21 A. I don't know. Perhaps, because the arrangement I
22 had -- at least I was -- I knew I would be getting a
23 net payment.
24 315 Q. Yes?
25 A. And I didn't know -- I suppose this might sound
26 strange but it's not strange, it is a fact, I
27 thought perhaps -- you see there was a -- that may
28 be in some way with business that was happening in
29 Fyffes that may be it could have been somewhat in a
40
1 form of a dividend, you know?
2 316 Q. Yes?
3 A. Which I am not a financial person. I am -- my
4 background is not accounting, you know?
5 317 Q. Yes?
7 318 Q. Yes?
8 A. I suppose I didn't give it an awful lot of heed
9 except that I probably did realize, "Yes, that is a
10 strange way. That is not the way I would normally
11 get it," and for that I took it the way it was and
12 took it in cash and I used it up.
13 319 Q. Yes?
14 A. Which was wrong.
15 320 Q. Yes. I would like now to go back to what you were
16 telling us at the beginning, Mr. McNamee. May be in
17 fact this might be a good point to take our coffee
18 break and take ten minutes?
19 A. Okay.
20 321 Q. You are all welcome to have a cup of tea or coffee?
21 A. All right. Thanks very much.
22 322 Q. We will come back in about ten minutes.
23 A. Okay.
24
25 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. McNAMEE BY MS. MACKEY.
26
28
29
41
1 MR. McNAMEE WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN:
4 323 Q. MR. ROWAN: It is musical chairs at
5 this stage of the
6 interview. Mr. McNamee, good morning?
7 A. It is a pity I didn't as well.
8 324 Q. No. Well, you were enjoying your tea. We are
9 pretty well through the questions that we would
10 like to ask you. There are just one or two
11 clarifications if we may? You said that habitually
12 when you asked Mr. Collery to get you some cash that
13 when he got you the money it was ordinarily in cash?
14 A. In cash.
15 325 Q. Cash by way of notes?
16 A. Notes.
17 326 Q. Right. So that in 1991 when you withdrew the
18 £50,000?
19 A. Yes.
20 327 Q. That was in notes?
21 A. That was also in notes, yes.
22 328 Q. Quite a lot of them?
23 A. Very large, yes. It was a very large amount of
24 money but it was.
25 329 Q. Did you have to take a suitcase?
26 A. Yes, I had. It was quite a large amount. I don't
27 actually think I had a suitcase because it would be
28 -- I had it but I had money. It was £50,000 in
29 notes.
42
1 330 Q. Yes?
2 A. Absolutely certain.
3 331 Q. Why was it done that way?
4 A. It was probably because I asked for it in notes.
5 I don't know. I don't know but it was.
6 332 Q. If you asked presumably it meant...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Notes, yes, I would. I literally would have
8 asked...(INTERJECTION).
9 333 Q. It meant that you had a reason for asking?
10 A. Well, my reason for asking, as I say, was that I was
11 aware that this, how this was money was coming to
12 me, was not the usual way as I had kind of said
13 earlier and I was realizing that it was something
14 that could well have been a tax -- whatever you
15 would say it and from my own point of view I suppose
16 I just accepted that without literally being told
17 that that was the situation.
18 334 Q. Okay?
19 A. But I -- it was different than any other payments.
20 My other payments would always have come in the
21 usual...(INTERJECTION).
22 335 Q. All right?
23 A. In the usual sort of way and that was different and
24 I just saw this as different because of my situation
25 in there and what I had been doing over a long
26 period.
27 336 Q. You told us, I think also, that prior to that
28 £50,000 being deposited in the account you had
29 withdrawn most of the other amounts that had been

1 deposited before that?
2 A. I think I had withdrawn it all before that.
3 337 Q. Right. When you took that £50,000 withdrawal did
4 that mean the account was clear; it was back to
5 zero?
6 A. Yes, it had to be.
7 338 Q. So the account was back to zero?
8 A. Yes, it was finished as far as I was concerned.
9 That is what I -- I am absolutely -- yes, I think I
10 can definitely say that.
11 339 Q. It might have been earning some interest though,
12 might it not, before you withdrew the money? The
13 £50,000 might have been earning some interest?
14 A. Well, if I did I possibly got it with the payment --
15 whatever I withdrew -- the last amount previous but
16 that was I believe -- I believe it was a £50,000
17 amount.
18 340 Q. Did you at any stage actually say to Mr. Collery,
19 "Look, Mr. Collery, I want to make a withdrawal and
20 I will actually just withdraw everything and close
21 the account"? Did you ever say that sort of thing
22 to him?
23 A. Well, it would be clearly known that when I withdrew
24 that last amount that that was the end of it, you
25 know? Padraig Collery would know that was the end
26 of it. Now, I know when it is an even £50,000 you
27 can say, "Well, how was it an even £50,000 and where
28 is the interest?" That cleared the account I am
29 absolutely certain. I would be very surprised if
44
1 there was anything left. There wasn't. That was
2 the end. That £50,000 that was left would have
3 cleared...(INTERJECTION).
4 341 Q. However, you are unable to say to us that it did
5 clear the account. Unambiguously you think it
6 probably did?
7 A. No, I don't. No, it is probably the way I say it
8 because when I say something I like to be absolutely
9 correct and truthful in what I am saying.
10 342 Q. Yes?
11 A. And I think I can say that it cleared the account.
12 343 Q. Right?
13 A. Because I had no other dealings. I had no
14 dealings as far as that was concerned other
15 than...(INTERJECTION).
16 344 Q. You indicated in your statement that you have
17 been discussing this issue with the Revenue
18 Commissioners ?
19 A. Yes, and have made a payment.
20 345 Q. Presumably you will have sought some advice in that
21 discussion?
22 A. Well, it's my accountant that is dealing with the
23 Revenue. I have never met the Revenue people.
24 346 Q. Yes. So that your accountant will no doubt need to
25 have some clarity about whether the account is still
26 in existence or whether it is closed and so on
27 because he will want to tidy the thing up with some
28 finality?
29 A. He will. Well, he is dealing with it and I honestly

1 don't know exactly how far he has got. I know he
2 has spoken with them and I know that I have paid a
3 substantial cheque.
4 347 Q. Right?
5 A. And I also know that the Company, I am sure, has
6 also been speaking with the Revenue people in
7 connection because...(INTERJECTION).
8 348 Q. Okay?
9 A. But that is nothing to do with me.
10 349 Q. Your accountant is Mr. Bradley?
11 A. That is right, yes, John.
12 350 Q. He is dealing with this matter on your behalf?
13 A. He is dealing with this matter on my behalf with
14 the Revenue.
15 351 Q. Right. Do you know has he asked "Ansbacher" for
16 evidence that your account is in
17 fact...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Closed?
19 352 Q. Closed?
20 A. I don't know that he has and I imagine that he
21 hasn't. Well, I think he -- I don't know. I just
22 don't know whether he has or not but that was not
23 discussed with him and I because as far as I was
24 concerned there was nothing there; it was all gone.
25 So, I doubt if he would have asked because I think
26 -- I don't think he would have any particular reason
27 to ask but he can certainly.
28 353 Q. I mean...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. But he can ask and I mean if he can ask and it is

1 something that I can get I certainly will get it.
2 354 Q. Perhaps, it would be valuable just for the purpose
3 of tidying things up?
4 A. Yes. Well, I will, yes.
5 355 Q. If you would ask him?
6 A. Yes, certainly.
7 356 Q. Please let us know what the answer to that is?
8 A. Yes, I will certainly do that.
9 357 Q. If you would?
10 A. Yes.
11 358 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned, I think, that the
12 £100,000 figure that you agreed with Mr. McCann was
13 a net payment?
14 A. A net payment.
15 359 Q. What does that mean?
16 A. Well, a net payment would have certainly meant to me
17 an after tax payment. It was net. As far as I was
18 concerned I was getting £100,000.
19 360 Q. And that...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. And that was £100,000.
21 361 Q. That in fact was after the Company had
22 accounted...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. Yes.
24 362 Q. For tax on it?
25 A. Yes, yes.
26 363 Q. That tax would presumably have been the same tax as
27 you would have, the same type of tax as you would
28 have, experienced on your normal salary?
29 A. Yes. I mean as far as I would be concerned, yes,
47
1 that is what I would assume. Now, I should say that
2 the Company treated some -- there was an amount that
3 they treated as a loan to me. Now, exactly how they
4 did it I didn't know but it was treated in some way
5 as a loan, some part of it, and the Company would be
6 aware of that and that is information that I can
7 get.
8 364 Q. "Some part of it." Half of it?
9 A. No, £40,000 of it.
10 365 Q. £40,000 of it?
11 A. Yes .
12 366 Q. Would have been treated as a loan?
13 A. Treated as a loan but that is how they treated that.
14 367 Q. When you were loaned the money was it suggested that
15 there was a time scale when you might be expected to
16 repay it?
17 A. No, I didn't -- I wouldn't have known actually that
18 it was a loan or what way it was treated and that is
19 why I again refer to it perhaps being £40,000 and
20 £10,000, you know; what I was saying earlier on?
21 368 Q. Yes?
22 A. That there was this question as to how the £10,000
23 was paid and there is a possibility that that
24 £10,000 was paid through the normal channels for me.
25 369 Q. Yes?
26 A. And that loan then was repaid by myself in 1988.
27 370 Q. You repaid the loan in 1988?
28 A. I repaid the loan.
29 371 Q. Yes?
1 A. And I repaid the loan by -- from a tax free
2 dividend, which I had got from the Company.
3 372 Q. The structure of the £100,000 was something which
4 you indicated, I believe, that you did not seek any
5 independent advice from your own accountant on?
6 A. No, I didn't seek any independent advice, no.
7 373 Q. So that this a combination of gift, or bonus, or
8 whatever it was, plus part loan...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. Or of dividend or whatever.
10 374 Q. Or dividend?
11 A. Yes .
12 375 Q. The combination of those things would have been
13 determined by someone in FII presumably?
14 A. Well, by presumably -- by the Chairman and perhaps
15 the Financial Director, which was Carl McCann.
16 376 Q. Yes?
17 A. I don't necessarily know if there was anybody else
18 involved at that period. I think perhaps not.
19 377 Q. Yes. When I was listening to your answers earlier
20 you explained that probably the decision about it
21 was more -- because you said you were in discussion
22 with Mr. Neil McCann about it I formed the
23 impression, from what you said, that the decision
24 was probably, about the payment, more Mr. McCann's
25 than maybe yours and I assumed...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. I assume...(INTERJECTION).
27 378 Q. And I assumed from that...(INTERJECTION)?
28 A. Yes, I think that is probably right to say.
29 379 Q. Forgive me for interrupting. I assumed from that
49
1 that you were really referring to the quantum?
2 A. Referring to?
3 380 Q. The amount?
4 A. Yes .
5 381 Q. I.e.. How much it was going to be; that Mr. McCann
6 would have said, "Well, look here, Mr. McNamee,
7 we will make this £100,000"?
8 A. Well, I think yes. You see can I say -- can I --
9 I hope I am not really talking way beyond anything
10 that is necessary but can I say, and I stress this,
11 I had -- I joined the Company in 1958 and I would
12 be very very much a marketing person. My
13 background would be marketing.
14 382 Q. Yes?
15 A. And the Company was very much, very very much, a
16 marketing company. It was relying really on sales;
17 profit from the sales.
18 383 Q. Yes?
19 A. And it was a very important end.
20 384 Q. Yes?
21 A. The other end of it, the finance end of it outside,
22 I was aware of everything; what things were costing.
23 I was aware of what we were selling them for.
24 385 Q. Yes?
25 A. I was aware but the other end, the end of it -- when
26 it came to the financial administration end of it
27 I wouldn't be involved at all because my
28 concentration would be very very much in this
29 field that I speak about.

1 386 Q. Yes?
2 A. Now, at that time, when we come to the mid 1980's,
3 the Company had become -- it went on the USM,
4 unlisted securities market in 1981.
5 387 Q. Yes?
6 A. And then in 1982, which I know is a year later,
7 Fyffes was acquired.
8 388 Q. Yes?
9 A. But there were a lot of things happening.
10 389 Q. Yes?
11 A. And I was very deeply involved in the business end;
12 in increasing sales; with it increasing profits.
13 390 Q. Yes?
14 A. So, it is -- it wouldn't be unusual if you like for
15 myself in some way to get recognition extra other
16 than the normal thing because I had played, and I
17 was continuing to play, a major role.
18 391 Q. Okay. Accepting that background: By 1985 of course
19 you had become the Managing Director of FII and you
20 were the Deputy Group Chief Executive?
21 A. Yes .
22 392 Q. Which meant of course that your role would have been
23 a fairly wide embracing one in the Company and you
24 would have been privy to everything that went on?
25 A. I would have to say, why that is I think it would
26 certainly appear to many many people to be the case,
27 it wasn't exactly the case in our Company. I am not
28 saying that if for some reason I wanted to find some
29 particular thing but I never did it. I never looked

1 for it. The thing that I was mainly concerned about
2 was our sales; our profit; our shippers; our
3 suppliers, whereever they came from.
4 393 Q. Yes?
5 A. So, to say that I would be aware of what was going
6 on exactly in the financial end I certainly was not
7 by any means and it certainly was not the way I
8 would be if I had been an accountant. My
9 concentration was entirely - I travelled. I know
10 I said it earlier but I hope you do not mind me
11 repeating it again: For a period of 30/35 years I
12 was working. I don't think I am exaggerating to say
13 because I have said it many times; not to do with
14 this. I have said it many times in the past. I
15 think I would have been working 80 hours a week and
16 I was travelling extensively. I don't exaggerate
17 over the world but I travelled very far over the
18 world and I travelled Europe.
19 394 Q. Yes?
20 A. So, I was very very deeply involved. So, I wasn't
21 involved in the financial end of it and if you like
22 I never looked to be. What is more I wasn't an
23 accountant either.
24 395 Q. Okay. Thank you for that.
25 A. Yes.
26 396 Q. May I then ask you: Would you agree with me if I
27 said that the £100,000 was an amount which was
28 proposed to you by Mr. McCann, one or other of
29 the McCann's?
52
1 A. By Neil McCann.
2 397 Q. By Neil McCann?
3 A. Yes .
4 398 Q. The structure of it, by way of partly if you like a
5 bonus, which was subject to tax i.e. the reference
6 to the net amount, and partly by way of a loan:
7 That was also proposed to you by the Company?
8 A. Well, as far as I would be concerned I knew I was
9 getting £100,000 after tax; net. I knew that and
10 I wasn't I suppose really that terribly concerned
11 at the time what way it was being dealt with and
12 how I was getting it.
13 399 Q. However, please may I have a "yes" from you to my
14 proposition, which was that the amount was decided
15 by the Company and how it would be paid to you was
16 decided by the Company?
17 A. Yes .
18 400 Q. Who no doubt took advice on it?
19 A. I don't know.
20 401 Q. However, they probably did, did they not?
21 A. Well, they would, yes. Advice from?
22 402 Q. Who were the Company's advisors at that time?
23 A. The Company's advisors?
24 403 Q. Tax advisors?
25 A. In 1985: Again, I can check that for you and I will
26 check it and I will come back to you with it but I
27 am pretty sure it was then Storey & Phelan.
28 404 Q. Right?
29 A. Storey & Phelan was taken over, acquired, by KPMG

1 and I think that was at a later stage but I can
2 certainly -- would you like me to find that out
3 for you?
4 405 Q. No, I do not think it is necessary?
5 A. Okay.
6 406 Q. I do not think it is vitally important?
7 A. Okay.
8 407 Q. The payment of £100,000 to you: Would that
9 ordinarily have been recorded in the appropriate
10 Company in the group, the appropriate Company's
11 accounts?
12 A. It probably would be, you know? I just can't
13 answer you but like it would be. It would have
14 to be recorded I would say somewhere in the thing.
15 I have no doubt that it would have been recorded.
16 I mean that is not an evasive answer, you know?
17 I just want to give the answer as it is.
18 408 Q. Yes?
19 A. I wouldn't have been dealing with that end of it.
20 409 Q. Yes?
21 A. But I would see no reason as to why it wouldn't have
22 been recorded in some way.
23 410 Q. If I may paraphrase a little: Your belief is
24 that it most probably was rather than it most
25 probably was not recorded in the accounts?
26 A. I think the way that they may have dealt with it
27 was in -- as I mentioned earlier there appears to
28 be £40,000 that was treated as a loan to me.
29 411 Q. Yes?
1 A. The other £10,000 may have gone through the
2 normal way, a normal way.
3 412 Q. Yes?
4 A. And the £50,000 may have been treated by them --
5 I will ask the Company. I have no problem in
6 getting exactly how it is but I think it may have
7 been treated in the form of a tax free dividend.
8 413 Q. Okay?
9 A. But they certainly will have recorded it and they
10 will have -- they may not have the exact thing but
11 I think they have.
12 414 Q. If you were able just to clarify it for us?
13 A. I can.
14 415 Q. By reference to the Company's records that would be
15 a great help?
16 A. Well, I certainly can.
17 416 Q. Thank you?
18 A. Yes .
19 417 Q. We have established that you did not personally take
20 any advice on this?
21 A. No.
22 418 Q. Okay. Turning then to page -- and I know there are
23 not numbers on it but it is page 6. The top of the
24 page says (EXHIBIT 1):
25
26 "Knowledge of Ansbacher (Cayman)

Limited."
27
28
29 If you would please turn to that page?

1 A. Yes, I have that.
2 419 Q. Try and find that page?
3 A. Yes.
4 420 Q. You dealt with some questions which we posed of you
5 in our letter, Appendix C to our letter. The first
6 question was in respect of Cayman Island Trust &
7 Trust Companies and you say:
9 "I did not sign any Deed of Trust or

any other Instrument in the Cayman
10 Islands"?
11
12 A. I did say that.
13 421 Q. Accepting that may I ask you a question?
14 A. Yes.
15 422 Q. Did you have a Trust established on your behalf in
16 the Cayman Islands?
17 A. Certainly not that I am aware of.
18 423 Q. Thank you. On the following page, halfway down
19 the page, there is a subheading:
20
21 "Exchange Control Acts 1954-1992"
22
23 A. Yes.
24 424 Q. You say:
25
26 "As far as I am concerned these

Exchange Controls did not apply as
27 I was only dealing with funds in
Guinness & Mahon in Dublin."?
28
29
56
2 425 Q. So that to the best of your knowledge there was no
3 Exchange Control issue?
4 A. No, I did not know that the money was outside of
5 the Country.
6 426 Q. I see. Thank you. Mr. McNamee, that ends our
7 interview today. We will in due course have the
8 transcript typed up and Ms. Cummins will get in
9 touch with you about it. I am afraid we will have
10 to ask you to pop in here and sign it when you have
11 read it obviously, and considered it, but that will
12 be in a few days ahead. Thank you very much indeed
13 for coming for the interview?
14 A. Okay. Thank you very much.
15 427 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. MACKEY: Thank you.
17 A. Thank you.
18 MR. FULLAM: Thank you very much.
19
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
57
•V
V.
V1 Û^Vj C^KNv-W
J o VXCK-W-
STATEMENT OF PATRICK McNAMEE
Background
My name is Patrick McNamee and I was born on 29* March 1930. I left school at the age of fifteen and
commenced working with Allied Suppliers Grocery Business under the Company name Maypole Dairy
• Company Limited. At the age of twenty four I became manager in the Dundalk branch. I left the
Comjt«ny in 1958 and went to work with Neil McCann who was in the general fruit business. The
i
company name was Charles McCann & Sons Limited based in Dundalk. I began in the Company by
rnanagfngr two retail shops there. In addition to managing the shops I went out on the road two days per
week wholesaling producefor the Company. I eventually went out on the road fulltime and cove^M part
of the areas of Louth, Meath, Monaghan, Cavan and North County Dublin, having arranged for
somebody else to manage the shops. In 1965 I became General Manager of Charles McCann & Sons
Limited and after that Director of Charles McCann & Sons Limited.
In 1968 Torney Bros and McCann Limited based in Dublin merged with United Fruit Importers also based
,)
in Dublin to become Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited (F.I.I.Ltd.) soon after this Connolly Shaw Fruit
Company was acquired by Fruit Importers of Ireland Ltd.. In the early 1970's Fruit Importers of Ireland
acquired two other fruit companies Charles McCann & Sons limited (Dundalk) in 1971 and Sbeil &
Byrne Limited, (Dublin). In 1971 I waTappointed Group Sales Director of F.I.I. Limited. In 1975 I
went on to become Deputy Group Managing Director of F.I.I. Limited. At that stage Neil McCann was
Chairman and Managing Director of F.I.I. Limited.

In the early eighties I became Group Managing Director of F.I.I. Limited. At the time Neil McCann was
Chairman and Chief Executive of F.I.I. Limited. In 1981 F.I.I. Limited became a public Company and
was listed on the U.S.M. in May 1981. In January 19841 became Deputy Group Chief Executive of the
Company and Managing Director of the Republic of Ireland. In July 1986 F.I.I. Limited acquired Fyffes
Group in the UK and soon after became F.I.I. Fyffes Pic. In 1988 however I had heart surgery and was
advised to cut down on my work load by my cardiologist. In 1990 I retired from F.I.I. Fyffes Pic as
Deputy Group Chief Executive and as Managing Director - Republic of Ireland. However I continued on
the Board of Fyffes Pic as it then was. Shortly thereafter I was asked if I would work on acquisitions for
'the Company. I agreed and later became Group Development Director as a result of my work in-that
field.
At the end of 19961 indicated to the Company that I wasted to step downfrom the Board. This was on
the advice of my Cardiologist Dr. Brian Maurer, who advised me that the continuing amount of travelling
involved in my work was not good for my health and could cause me additional problems. I eventually
retired from the Board at the end of January 1997. The Company at this stage was interested in me doing
some consultancy work for them and I was happy to do so. This work contains specific assignments
)
carried out by myself at the request of the Company.
Remuneration
'ir-'
During the I980's the structure of my remuneration was salary and bonus. I was also granted some
options over shares in the Company. There was also a non-contributory pension scheme run by the
Company. At the end of 1989 my average basic earnings for the previous three years would have been
approximately £75,000 (per annum). In addition I was paid a bonus. In relation to the bonus it was a sit
down discussion with the Company at the end of any financial year to agree the amount.
In relation to the consultancy work which is at present being undertaken by me for the Company since
April 1997,1 am paidfor this consultancy service.
^ Shares In Fyffes Pic.
i never held that many shares in the Company, but at present myself and my wife would hold 55,000
shares jointly. I personally hold about 5,000 of those in my own name.
Bonus payments from F.I J.
In 1985 the Company agreed to pay me the sum of £100,000 as a reward for my contribution to the
Company over the years. This was to be paid before the end of 1985.
' Payment of the £100,000
The payment of £100,0001 believe was made in 1985from die Company. There is a possibility that the
first part (£50,000) could have been maê in two payments of £40,000 and £10,000. I cannot ^call the
exact date or in what form I got the money. I just cannot remember because it is so long ago.
In relation to the first part of the payment, I was told to get in touch with Guinness & Mahon Bank, and I
think it was Neil V. McCann or Carl McCann who told me, where arrangements would be in place for me
A ?
to deal with the monies. This I did having been put in touch with Padraig Collery by Guinness & Mahon.
I do not know how the money was paid to Guinness & Mahon. At this meeting with Padriag Collery no
account book was given to me nor was any account number given.
In relation to the second part of the payment (£50,000) paid by die Company these monies were also
lodged in Guinness & Mahon, towards the end of 1985. I am uncertain as to how die money was lodged
to Guinness & Mahon. To the best of my recollection I did not sign anything. I can say that by the end
^ of 1985 or early 1986 approximately £90,000 in total had been lodged in Guinness & Mahon, no other
lodgements were made, after this date.
Withdrawal of Money
I recall I would ring Padraig Collery in Guinness & Mahon and tell him the amount of cash I wanted to
withdraw. I would then go down to Guinness & Mahon Bank and make the withdrawals. The
withdrawals were always in the form of cash. In relation to thefirst payment I withdrew it out usual!/ in
•heform of £5,000 or perhaps £10,000 and so on. I used this money to spend on holidays, buying items
for die house and also gave some of it to my wife and children. I would say that these monies were spent
over afour tofive year period. During all of this time I believe I never got any written correspondence
from Guinness & Mahon in relation to these monies, nor did I get any bank statements in relation to the
amount deposited. The interest rate paid by Guinness & Mahon was as far as I can recallfour tofive per
cent and was paid on the sum of money deposited. The interest payments were included to a rounded off
figure in the withdrawals.

In relation to the second part of the payment (£50,000) I recall that I rang up most likely Padraig Collery
in or. around June 1991, as I wanted to withdraw the £50,000. Padraig Collery moved to another office in
or around 1988/1989. I do not recall whether I actually met with Padiaig Collery in relation to
withdrawing the £50,000 on that occasion but the arrangement to withdraw the monies was made through
him. Again this withdrawal was in theform of cash.
I never had any contact with Des Traynor, nor did I know him.
-taone of die above money lodged to Guinness & Mahon was declared by mefor Income Tax purposes.
My Accountants are corresponding with the Revenue with a view to settling my tax liability in respect of
this money and die interest thereon. In this regard a substantial payment on account has been made to the
Revenue.
Other business with Guinness & Mahon
I knew Martin Keane in Guinness & Mahon Bank, as he had done workfor F.I.I. over a period. On this
i
basis I arranged loansfor myself and my family usuallyfor share purchases. These loans were secured
mainly by F.I.I. Shares and some Tullow Oil Shares. In addition a personal guarantee was given by me.
As far as I am aware there was no connexion with the money on deposit and the loans arranged hjt myself
and my family through Guinness & Mahon.

Knowledge of Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited
Ifirst found out about Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited when I started reading about it in the newspapers. At
no time whatsoever had I any knowledge that the money had been lodged outside of the Country. I was of
the opinion that I was always dealing with Guinness & Mahon.
Appendix C - to Tribunal letter dated 20 January 2000

/
^Cayman Island Trust and Trust Companies
I did not sign any Deed of Trust or any other Instrument in the Cayman Islands.
Use of Deposits maintained by Irish Residents with the Ansbacher (Caymen) Limited
I have no knowledge of this.
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited
I had no dealings whatsoever with Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited.
Amiens Securities Limited, Amiens Investments Limited or Kentfort Securities Limited
I had no dealings with either Amiens Securities Limited, Amiens Investments Limited or Kentfort
Securities Limited and die names mean nothing to me.

•rv
Guinness & Mahon Ireland Limited - the provision of loans and guarantees
As previously indicated loans were arranged for myself and my family through Guinness & Mahon.
Irish Intercontinental Bank - Kreditbank N. V. Providing loans
I had no dealings with Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited nor Kreditbank N.V. in relation to any loans
provided by them.
• )
Exchange Control Acts, 1954 -1992
As far as I am concerned these Exchange Controls did not apply as I was only dealing with funds in
Guinness & Mahon in Dublin.
Channel Island Trusts & Companies

Appendix XV (80) (l)(c)
MLOK/CC 11th May 1990
Mr. J.D. Traynor,

Ansbacher Limited,
c/o 42, Fitzwilliam Square,
Dublin 2.
Dear Des,
I refer to your letter of 17th April. The attached schedule
sets out the account details requested as at Slat March 1990.
I have discussed this list briefly wiLh Padraig, but if there
are any queries perhaps you would let; m» know.
Yours sincerely,
,/
MARTIN L^ttOAN-O' KBHFFE.
V A ' Letter of Credit Facility
-£100,000
Xx £ • 20/692
Stg.£ 70/000
£ 308,343
Stg.£1/250,576
Vv £ 130,000 (GBM)
^ £ 55,324 ( . )
£ 10,357 ( - )
£ 156,576
. "XX £ 4,410
V V " * 200,196
^ Stg.E 35,000 ( - ' )
Stg.E 35,000 ( /
V x Stg.E 140,000
P. McNamee £ ' 50,000 (As Guarantor
for various
facilities)
£ 25,496
Appendix XV (80) (l)(d)
MLOK/MHC 8th April/ 1991,
Mr J. D. Traynor,
42 Fitzwilliam Square,
Dublin 2.
Dear Des,
I enclose updated Schedule of balances as at 31st March,
1991.
Yours sincerely,
Martin Lanigan-0'Keeffe.
Enc.
gwcwsu^: Lc^lrea- s M(UL Mt
PM^WCKg m 31-3.91
X ^ X Letter of Credit Facility
£100,000
£100,000
£17,657
£STG 70,000
y ^ £131,100 (GBM)
X ^ ^ X £107,181 (JT Senior)
X X £315,497
^ X £5,220
9 TfrTTnwnn £ 5 0 , 0 0 0 • (As G u a r a n t o r )
£237,907
XXx
£ S T C 3 5 , 0 0 0 (HOBS)
XTKy
E S T G 3 5 , 0 0 0 (KP II)
HXiOK/mhc
8.4.91
n 10:014122708 P:i'l
19-07-2000 13:51 FROM:FYFFES 04293E8W3
TWaphoMlOtt) 9338451
es
ItwRanptito ta|M2) 9339470
DwU
Co.Louth
Mr. P.O. McNamee, 19 July 2000 MC/mc

-
Caoc",
ftsvensdale,
DUNDALK,
Co. Louth.
i
I -
Dear Paddy,
I teSer to your enquiryfor underlying documentation la relation to the payments of £40,000
and £50,000 in 1985. Unfortunately, as these payments were made over IS years ago most of
our records no longer exist
In respect of a payment of £50,000 the account bom which it wu paid u unclear. We believe
that £50,000 was paid to you towards the end of 1985.
enclose a bank statement in respect of a Company account at AIB. The actual entry is
somewhat faded, but you will see on the bank statement that then is a debit far £40,000 on
the 14 May 1985. The Bank have not been able to trace the paid cheque. While we cannot be
absolutely certain on* the point, it is our belief that this is the £40,000 which was paid to you.
Yours sincerely,
FYjfFKSpIc
Michael Clezirin.
Director of Personnel
Encl
Doctor*NVMcCn(Q<m4 CPMcCm DVMtCw

MSM* M M JT6mm UIB* J N M OlSaeta
EXECUTIVE DIRECTORS MWcmir.
NO. as
5TH JULY 1988

PRESENT: M.J.P. - CO'C. - A-J.O'D. - M.L-0'K.
THE MINUTES OF THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTORS MEETING HELD

ON mm aaar iaaa WERE APPROVED AND SIGNED.
SZS&
aovusB ' NEW FACILITY
US)1,000,000 - Tarn Loan.
I 503/1456 NEW FACILITY
£40,000 - Loan.
804/1457 EXTENSION
2188,000 - Loan (BH)
£ 15,000 - Loan (No2)
£ 40,000 (from £175,000) (BCL),
805/1450
US$115,000 (pravioualy 1135,000) - Loan
806/1458 EXTENSION/REDUCTION
£50,000 jrrom £115,000) - Loan BH.
£30,000 (from £80,000) - Loan BCL.
807/1460 ADDITIONAL FACILITY
£61,033 - Loan BH
£20,000 - Loan No.2
£15,000 (additional) - Loan BCL.
808/1481 HENRY ]. MCNAMEE / EXTENSION/REDUCTION
£16,000 (plus Interaw) - Loan,
809/1463 MRS. VERONICA LAVELLE / EXTENSJON/REDCUTION
£20,000 (plus Interest) - Loan.
810/1483 ^ MARY MCNAMEE / EXTENSION/REDUCTION
£18,500 (plus Interest) - Loan
811/1464 JAMES G. MCNAMEE / EXTENSION/REDUCTION
£17,500 (plua interact) • Loan.
NAME: HENRY J. McNAMEE. . Crailt Mrnnomulum
AO Submlltid by: PO'D.
ADOHESS: c/o. 64, Merrlon Rood, Dublin 4. Equity Si**: NO
Business/ Son of Mr. P. C. Mc Names C.E. Approvil: Yn/No
OCCUPATION! M w w g l n g Dlractor oF F.I.I. Fyffes Pic Pirmlitkxi OtoUfratd
SIM: . N/A.
Tt
THIS APPLICATION:rfWK^XaeflOK^XiOWXWWW/Ext-ttkm / fl^^ 'B.I..U,
ri lOtiwtlwppraprM*} •
TYPE: ....IP*". - AMOUNT: JU&flflfl. BATE: .Coflt-oLJlMJ.. FEE: tSi,
•- • 4 2%. IHHJNWHI Iwiwm tWM
^coJMjp.jasry™. Mil n l m hHmi m m mm* ««
JLftteflihfc).
PURPOSH/DHAWDOWN: IF new of hMfimrf

IsdlWw, Is drawdown
Originally advanced during 1987 to assist In thfl purchase or psrmllMl prior ID
• •JT.J.I. Fyffes Pie. Shares. compltlloA ol SMurlly?
YES/NO
TEftM OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:

Extension required for one rear 30th. June, 1989
SOURCE OP REPAYMENT:
Sale of Shaim
SECURITY: If sddltloml ef Mdftfctfl
30,000 Shares In F.LI. Fyffes Pic. In the name of Mara Nominees taWtv. Ii saourlty In <mbr?
Limited. Power of Sale Form held. Guarantee signed by P. G. YES/NO
McNamee ( who Is aleo liable on guarantees to a total of
£104,000 for other Independently secured account )
II No, ghra Mull ssparilely.
BACKGROUND NOTE/
^jpUTUNE OF PROPOSAL:
"he rhe applicant Is • son or Mr. P. G. McNamee (guarantor). Managing Director of F.I.L Fyftea Pic.
G&M have a very long standing relationship with the company for the past 10/12 years. The
guarantee given may be taken as a<tequate to the extent or £50,000. Tha value of the security held
amounts to £45,000.
Extension Is recommended.
-rtn,l«l Fpdlltln/Botrowtri: CRBDIT COMMITTEE

(Bslsnn or Limn, whlehwrar k g>nttr)
MtnUlliMtmiliMmaArnuM^H OlIVwihiufHliirmHMftH'MnMn
(To Guarantor: £120,000).
170,000 F.I.L • 1.40 • £238,000 •MtHiMtNonnHMtlMim* Ki V1"1' ' »•••»»•»«»»••«• •»•«!•••
B tcommsmjidi/vj *
Adequacy • of Oiarantor £ 50,000
BOARD
£288,000 : Cover 2 * 4 .Times.
Total Exposure £16,000
ApproVflrf
•» M * *», «»» ...... »..•*«
NAME: MRS. VERONICA LAVELLE. Cridll Mwnaxandutn PO'D,
Submliudby:
ADORE35: 92, River Forest, Letxllp, CO. K1LDARE. Equity Slik*: NO
business/ Secretary to P. G. McNamee <*.S. Appro** Y«/No
occupation.' of F.f.t. Fyffes Pic. Pirmtalon Obufrwd
Dili! N/A.
TIMS AltLKATION: MMXKWXMMNNSOKXXXXNMH / txtomton / Wda-tkm
FLMWT *> WRAPTITTO) *BHIIUWI UILHHN WIITWL
TYPE:, Loan . .. AMOUNT: .JEStkQML...—1 HATBJ .Coat..o£J&inds.FFEB: -feULIs^

...Un«a»at-WLJ«L—. „,
roiled «p every
muni—' -n- i i n i < « n n i m w w w i IMIMM«««IM M WHMMIMM MIIWIIMM I mtwwwwi
6 Months)
runrosE/ORA«n>owN: ladtltkt, b drtwdown

awmUlad prior M
"YlaJjislly advanced November 19*7 to assist In tha purchase of •ompfotlon of neurit* ?
•"Fyffes Pic. Shares,
N/A4
TEAM OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:
Extension For One Year. 90/8/1909.
SQURCBOF REPAYMENT:
Sale of Shares.
SECURITY: I! nhBifciml or miltttnf
tadNty. la MWrtiy In ardtr?
39,000 Shares In F.t.1 Fytres In tha mine of Mars Nominees Limited
Power of Sals Form heW, guarantee signed by P.a McNamee (who YES / NO
U also liable on guarantees to a total of EI00.000 Tor other
Independently secured accounts). ltrto.#Mdrtalbi
BACKOROUNONOTE/
OUjrUNE OF PHOroSAt:
V.V
Tha guarantee given may be taken as adequate to the extent of £80,000. Tha value of
the shares held amounts to £52,900. Account always conducted In order.,
Recommend Extension.
FbltfMl FMHWM/Bairawwi: CUtHT C Q M M I T T B S

(Bulanc* or Limit, wMchmr li fraaUrl
170,000 F.U. • 1.40 - £238,000 RMammMidad
Adequacy o f Guarantor
. £ 80,000
BOARD
£288,000: Cover 2 * 4 Tinas,
Tol«l Expowr*: £20,000 Minut* JL<!?.X fpf
I ImtllO IlMmM • 0»l<«. AimrAwil .

r
Cridll Memorandum
NAME: MS. MARY McNAMEE . SwbmUtad by: PCD.
ADDRESS: c/o. 64, Merrlon Road, Dublin 4. Equity Slakr. NO
BUSINESS/ C.B. Approval: Yn/Ne
OCCUPATION:
Daughter of P. C. McNamee, Pafmlnlcn Obtained
M.D. F.U. Fytfea Pic. Oat*: N/A.
THIS APPLICATION: i U ^ ^ X M ^ S K I ^ i X ^ / E*l«~k» / Reduction
(DtUlm rt vpnprim—)
Loan AMOUNT: .JUJWMJL KATE: -Co«t.a£ PEE: -Nil-
TYPE:
rolled up every
HMtl MMMUM auinMO MNIMtH
6 Month^K
PURPOSE/DRAWDOWN: II rww or Irxguud

fadlMn, b ilnwdoDa
Originally advanced during 1987 to assist In the purchaie of parmlttadflriwto
> FJ.I. Fyffes Pic. Shares. oompletlon of MMitltyT
N/A.
TERM OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:

30th. June, 1089.
Extension required for one year.
SOURCE OP REPAYMENT:
Sale of Shares.
SECURITY: If additional or milting
MMty. Ii iMUrity In ordarf
37,000 shares In F.LI, ryffes In the name of Mara Nominees Ltd.
- Power of Sale Form held guarantee singed by P. G, McNamee (who YES/NO
Is also Usble on guarantees to a total of £101,500 for other
Independently secured iceidnts.) If No, (to (Malta npantaiy.
BACKGROUND NOTE/
"UTIINE OF PROPOSAL: applicant Is a daughter of Mr. P. C. Mc Namee (guarantor) Managing
11,8
> 'S Director of FJJ. Fyffes Pic. G&M have a very long standing relationship
'•'#lth the company for the pest 10/13 years. The guarantee given may be taken as adequate to
' the extent of £50,000. The value of the security held amounts to £55,500.
•rtufilad FaaMttoi/BaMowMti: CREDIT COMMITTEE

IBaianca or Umft.wMchav*r h jraatwl
170,000 F.1.1. • 1.40 £238,000 Recommended
' Adetjiay or Guarantor £ 50,000 BOARD
Total Expoaura: £18,500. £288,000 Cover ZH Time: Mlraiu.,...JjO i
Naw Llmllb) na«<d«d by: ..... i« Oal*:,

NAMR: James C. Mr.Nnmcc OmKl M'moinuihiin I'O'I)
SutMnltl«il liy:
ADnnm c/fl 64 Mnrrltm R«nd, lJuWIn 4 ei|iil(/Si»fci>: N
"
mJStNEKY Son or Patrick McNamee, C.B. Apimwil! Yns/No
OCCUPATION: M.L>. OF FII FyHas PIC POIMLNLNN OHMNML N/A
\'mm\
•.Jills ATTUICAHOM: l»M fJrtJftWiWWW/ "UrtmrtK*
« 'HOTWiVWWHIâwMIW***
,VPt- U f l n
AMOUNT: J&592 BATE: nf..«..m.r.„. r K ) 5 : .....Nil
(Interest to be yollfad *2 %
| up every 6 Months).
itmvoaE/nnAWOQWN: II MM nr tiMiMfil
lidHliat,torirawtlnwn
purmlllnliwlftt In
If - '
T
Originally artvnitt-.n during 1087 lo assist In tmrr.linsr of cmaplnllfMi AI infinity?
' II Fyffes Tic slinrw.
N/A
TEHMOF rACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:
F.xmnslnw retpilred for one year. .101 ll June ItlflfT
SOURCE OF REPAYMENT:
Sulis of shares.
CTCumrv-. II aMilkwiatm whllno
lacfflly, Ii aaairHy In anht f
35,000 share* In Ftl Fyfres Pic In Ihe name or Man Nominees
Limited. Powrr of Sate Form hold . Cunrnniee slgnad by 1\C. YES/NO
McNamee (who Is nlsn liable Tor gttornnlcn* in n mini
nf £102,500 for ntlmr ImloiNindmuly secitrnd imcowMn. II Nn, it»»rtrnnthM|u»*uly.
nAJJKOROUNO NOTE/
C UNE or PROPOSAL:
Ti
" ' Tim npfillcmri Is me or Mr. P.C. McNnmcc (guarantor), Managing l>lrector or FII Fyttes.
GAM have • vory long standing relationship with the compnny lor the pnsl 10/12 ynars.
The gtmrMilee given may be taken as BtfeniiMn in Iho'exlent of £50,000. Tim vnlun of the
security held amounts to £82,BOO .
rietk.'u'l Fm-liUlftiAornwmn: CREDIT COMMITTEE

ITUIXMW oi Llmh, wMdwn b |n>Ml|
(U^-A-l:.?!
(To Guarantor : £120,000)
170.000 F.I.I. • 1.40p - £238,000 nMimmimlMt i^t
Adequacy 0 r Guarantor £ 50,000 £288,000: Gwer 2M BOARD
£17,500 Thas. uu^JH ^.....xhM
InIM F.»|iii,urn:
D
Nw» l.knllN) nixmtlnl liy' - *,r: Appiovnf
IN *f> ntnwrim tnlftlnwn«l'«) I
Appendix XV (80) (1) (k)
NAME: JOYCE McNAMEE. Cradit Memorandum pQ'n
Submitted by:
ADDRESS: c/o. 64, Merrfon Road, Dublin 4. Equity Staka:
BUSINESS/ Daughter or P. O. McNamee, C.B. Approval: Ytt/No
OCCUPATION; m.D. of F.LI. Fyffea Pic. rermHilonObtained . . , .
Oita:
THIS APPLICATION: fcttmton /.Htfaalton

IDthn ** *»rvpri*Hl *E»l«ttna hsllhln onrlnf
L<
TYPF. >a" AMOUNT! -.JfeMJWtt RATE: -Cost-of FEE: . - N ' t
(Interest to be 6 re.f. + 2%
raited up every 8 nontKs).
PURPOSE/DRAWDOWN: If now or liioraaaad
Originally advanced during 1987 to assist la the purchase pormlnMf prior to

eomptotfon of aocurity?
of F.I.L Fyffes Pic. Shares.
YES/NO
TERM OF FAdLITIEB: REVIEW DATES:
Extension required for one year. 30th. June, 1989.
SOURCE OF REPAYMENT:
Sala of Shares.
SECURITY: If additional or rabtlnB
33,500 shares In FJ.L Fyffes Pic. In the name of Mara Nominees facility, h nmartty In mtkr?
Limited with Power of Sale Form. Guarantee signed by P.G. YES/HOC
Mc.Nsmee ( who Is also liable for guarantees to a total of
£72,000 for other Independently secured loans. II No, ate* (fetalis saparacily.
BACKGROUND NOT&
OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL:
.The applicant U a daughter of Mr. P. a McNamee (guarantor). Managing Director of F.LL Fyffes,
G&M have a very long standing relationship with the company for the past 10/12 years. The
guarantee given may be taken as adequate to the extent of £90,000. The value of the security held
amounts to £90,290.
Extension la recommended.
._-aUtad Fadtltta/Borrowarc CREDIT COMMITTEE

(Balance or Limit, whfchiaar (igraitor)
Mlnuu !h.k£ / U ^ L ^ J l
( To Guarantor: £120,000)
170*000 F.I.I. Shares • HOp - £233,000 Racomm«ml«f

.Adequacy of Guarantor £ 50,000 BOARD
£288,000 Cover 2 * 4 Minuti SLA t
Total Exposurt: £50,250. Tlm«. /LtJ^t-^S
•••ttlMWH*HtMMMMHM««AljN««MHM<<l»l»>«IHMI,WHnM«M*HH<MII
Nrw l.imltIO RiscorrtiHl by: Oitt:.,
Afwirowtri
DILLON EOSTM
S O L I C I T O R S
o u r Rof NL/MMcG/MCN03/l
Your Rof C/M12
17 January 2002
Private and Confidential

The Inspectors to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.
3 rd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
CO DUBLIN
Re: Patrick McNamee.
Dear Sirs,
We refer to your letters of 3 rd and 21s' December and in particular the enclosure entitled "Inspectors' Preliminary
/"""Conclusions". At paragraph 4 of your letter of 3 rd December, you purport to arrive at the preliminary conclusion that
Mr McNamee was a client of Ansbacher. We reject this conclusion as being totally against the evidence.
The evidence clearly established that Mr McNamee was a client of Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Ltd. (GMI). (Your
document contains no definition of the term "client". Presumably this was deliberate, as under no circumstances
could Mr McNamee be regarded as a client of Ansbacher in either of the senses of the term used in the Oxford
English Dictionary, i.e. (1) a person who uses the services of a professional person or (2) a customer. You as much
as acknowledge this at paragraph 3 where you state - "although he did not himself open the account in Ansbacher"-).
What the evidence further establishes is that GMI, without Mr McNamee's knowledge, probably channelled
£50,000.00 of Mr McNamee's money through Ansbacher and designated it as a "back to back" security for Mr
McNamee's guarantee of loans to members of his family for the purchase of shares. Again, this is partially
acknowledged at paragraph 2 of your document. As appears from the documentation, these loans were fully secured
by deposits of the relevant Share Certificates.
Grand Canal House, 1Upper Grand Canal Street, Dublin A, Ireland.

Telephone +353-1-66 700 22 Fax +353-1-66 700 E-mail info@dilloneustace.ie www.dilloneustace.ie
A n d r e w Bates, Paul M . Breen, M a r y A . C a n n i n g , K i e r a n C o w h e y , D a v i d Dillon, John Doyle, Paul Eustace, Paul A . G i l l , Paula Kelleher, B r i a n Kelliher,
L o r n a K e n n e d y , P a t r i c k J. K e v a n s , D e n i s e K i n s e l l a , C a t h e r i n e M c K n i g h t , M a r k T h o m e , L o r c a n T i e r n a n . C o n s u l t a n t : F i o n a M u l c a h y .
In a l l i a n c e w i t h ARENDT & MEDERNACH Luxembourg

DILLON EyimCE
It is clear from a comparison of the GMI internal documentation on the one hand and the correspondence between
GMI and the McNamee family on the other, that the only security referred to in the latter was the deposit of Share
Certificates.
Assuming your convenient definition of "adequately secured" is correct, we submit that the only conclusion that the
evidence adduced reasonably permits is as follows:-
Mr McNamee was a long standing although small client of GMI. -Without his knowledge, GMI placed £50,000.00 of
his funds with Ansbacher and used same as security for Mr McNamee's guarantee of loans by GMI to members of
his family and a staff member. These loans were for the purchase of shares in Fyffes Pic and were already secured
by the deposit of the relevant Share Certificates.
We therefore submit that your document be amended in the following two respects :-
(1) The inclusion of a clear definition of the term "client" and
(2) The adoption of the conclusion which we set out above.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully
A M e -
Dillon Eustace

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Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

THE HIGH COURT

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

VOLUME [8]: APPENDIX X V ( 7 4 ) TO X V ( 8 0 )

© Government of Ireland 2002

a) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Patrick McCarroll dated 19 June

b) Statement and attachments provided by Ms McCarroll to the Inspectors

c) Copy statements dated 30 June 1991, 31 July 1991, 30 June 1992, 31

d) Letter of 3 September 1991 - Patrick McCarroll to Padraig Collery.

e) Undated letter - Patrick McCarroll to Padraig Collery.

f) Unheaded ledger statement for the period 31 March 1989.

g) Letter of 26 September 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Ms Mary Meagher McCarroll.

a) Letter of 28 September 2001- Eugene F Collins to Inspectors.

1.1.1 Deed of Trust

1.8.1 Bodies corporate in which I had an interest

i Date *mmmm 'jjjj^liteliilw^lflillll^' h lliiiiiHilit'~'.'

Sept- Dec 86 Dublin, not working

Jan 87- June 89 St Louis, Missouri, USA

June 89 - April 91 Algarve, Portugal

April 91 - Oct 91 Kilkenny

Oct 91-Apr 92 Eglinton Park, Dunlaoghaire

Apr-Sept 92 2 Maretimo Gdns. West, Blackrock

Sept 92-May 95 Muscat, Oman

May 95 -Present Ireland

Dublin, 12th July 2000

ACCOUNT NUMBER 8000X633 PAGE 23

)1/ 5/92 BROUGHT FORWARD 22947.73

00/ 6/92 23505.87

H/01/93 BROUGHT FORWARD 0.00

>1/03/93 BROUGHT FORWARD 13854.42

jiO/04/93 13391. >f>

"A V • ' *» ' • » t

- i r - ' • irj.-..«.. ...

»*• •ft.* t*1 •

26th September, 1990.

f TL/PH/M23660.001 28* September 2001

Re; Ausbacher (Cayman) Limited

1: Mr. Patrick McCarroll (deceased)

In a statement preceding your preliminary conclusions at paragraph 3, you accurately detailed

r.,irtna rs f-ri -..-,-„ ; Jr i "..':.:••.>•(./.ii; K-ic-acI </.• •I<-m

2. Mrs. Mary Meagher McCarroll

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Patrick McCarroll dated 19 June 2000.

b) Guinness Mahon Guernsey Limited ledger statement of 18 March 1980.

c) Guinness Mahon Bankers ledger statement re Guinness Mahon Guernsey

d) GMCT statement re College Trustees Limited of 31 March 1982.

e) Unheaded ledger statement re A/A43P - a/c no. 80001632 - of 3 October

f) Letter of 26 September 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

g) Unheaded ledger statement re A/A43P - a/c no. 80001632 - of 31

h) Letter of 19 February 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

i) Letter of 25 November 1992 - Hamilton Ross Company Limited to IIB.

j) Letter of 3 September 1991 - Patrick McCarroll to Padraig Collery.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Patrick McCarroll.

a) Letter of 28 September 2001 - Eugene F Collins to Inspectors.

ON MONDAY, 19TH JUNE 2 0 00

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. PATRICK MCCARROLL

Represented by: MR. JOHN 0'MALLEY

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