Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 7

Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos
THE HIGH COURT
IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990

AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)
REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS

APPOINTED TO ENQUIRE INTO THE
AFFAIRS OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN)
LIMITED
Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002
V O L U M E [7]: A P P E N D I X X V ( 5 5 ) TO X V ( 7 3 )
ISBN 0-7557-1355-9
© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (55) Mr Gerald Hickey
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Gerald Hickey.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Gerald Hickey dated 25 May 2000.
b) Statement and attachments of Mr Gerald Hickey dated 19 May 2000.
c) Undated Guinness and Mahon memo headed 'Gerry Hickey'.
d) Receipt of share certificate of 28 May 1993.
e) Ansbacher Cayman Limited statement of current a/c of 24 June 1996.
f) Telefax of 22 September 1994 - JA Furze to IIB.
g) Extract from meeting of Board of Directors of Guinness and Mahon of 28

November 1974.
h) Extract of Guinness and Mahon credit committee minutes of 4 November

1971.
i) Letter of 16 November 1971 - Guinness and Mahon to Gerald Hickey.

Appendix XV (55) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. GERALD HICKEY
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 25TH MAY 2000
I hereby certify the
following to be a true and
accurate transcript of my
shorthand notes in the
above named interview.
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. GERALD HICKEY
Represented by: MR. BRIAN BOHAN

I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MR. G. HICKEY MS. MACKEY
MR. ROWAN
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,
2 25TH MAY 2000:
4 MR. ROWAN: Good morning, Mr. Hickey.
5 My name is Paul Rowan. My
6 fellow inspector is Noreen Mackey. This is an
7 interview today. It is not a Court and it is not a
8 Tribunal.
9 MR. HICKEY: Yes.
10 MR. ROWAN: If you wish to consult
11 with your legal advisor,
12 if your ask us to stop we will allow you to speak to
13 him.
14 MR. HICKEY: I see, yes.
15 MR. ROWAN: Equally, Mr. Bohan, if you
16 wish to make a point to
17 your client, if you ask us to stop we will allow you
18 to do that.
19 MR. BOHAN: Yes.
20 MR. HICKEY: This is not a Tribunal.
21 I thought it was a
22 Tribunal?
23 MS. MACKEY: No.
24 MR. ROWAN: No.
25 MR. BOHAN: It is an inquiry.
26 MR. ROWAN: It is just an
27 investigation.
28 MR. HICKEY: I see, yes.
29 MR. ROWAN: As you can see we are
4
1 maintaining a transcript
2 of this. It will be converted into written form
3 afterwards and you will be asked to sign it.
4 MR. HICKEY: Yes.
5 MR. ROWAN: What we tend to do — and
6 it may well be appropriate
7 in this case -- is that if you feel you would like
8 to stop because you are not feeling well, would you
9 please let us know and we will arrange to have a
10 break.
11 MR. HICKEY: Thank you.
12 MR. ROWAN: In any event we tend to
13 have a break after about
14 an hour.
15 MR. HICKEY: I see.
16 MR. ROWAN: We will take it at your
17 speed.
18 MR. HICKEY: Right so. Thank you
19 very much. That is fine.
20 MR. ROWAN: I would like to ask
21 Ms. Mackey to administer
22 the oath please.
23 MR. HICKEY: Right.
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. GERALD HICKEY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY:
4 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Hickey, I will start
5 by asking you some
6 questions and Mr. Rowan will take up then at a later
7 stage?
8 A. Yes.
9 2 Q. We sent you, as Mr. Rowan said, our long letter
10 asking you various questions. And you have sent us
11 back your unsworn statement (Exhibit 1)?
12 A. That is right, yes.
13 3 Q. You have sent us with that some documents. And you
14 have given us certain explanations or references to
15 those documents?
16 A. Yes.
17 4 Q. Before I begin to ask you questions proper about
18 your own background and your own relationship with
19 Guinness & Mahon, I want to ask you about these
20 documents that you gave us?
21 A. Yes.
22 5 Q. Are these the actual documents you got from
23 Guinness & Mahon or is it some kind of summary of
24 them?
25 A. No. What happened was this: About a year and a
26 half ago was the first time that
27 Guinness & Mahon sent me some of the documents when
28 I was asked to appear before the Moriarty Tribunal.
29 6 Q. Yes?
6
1 A. That is only one or two of these things.
2 7 Q. Yes?
3 A. It is that one and that one. (INDICATING).
4 8 Q. All of these set out at C to K, these look as if
5 they are some sort of summarised version of
6 documents (Exhibit 1)?
7 A. Yes. But I would to say that I have never seen the
8 first one apart from this one.
9 9 Q. Yes?
10 A. The first one "A" I have never seen. And that one.
11 10 Q. Yes?
12 A. I have never seen any of these until a few weeks
13 ago.
14 11 Q. Where did this come from?
15 A. Guinness & Mahon sent them to me.
16 12 Q. In that form?
17 A. Yes, in that form.
18 13 Q. Because one of them here "I" simply says 9/4/84?
19 A. "I" in this lot here?
20 14 Q. "I" in that lot there, yes. It simply says:
21 "9/4/84, a letter from Gerard Hickey to

College Trustees in which he confirmed
22 that College Trustees Ltd..."
23
24 Did they send you that letter, Mr. Hickey?
25 A. I have no recollection whatever.
26 15 Q. No, with these documents. Is this all they sent
27 you?
28 A. That is all they sent me, yes.
29 16 Q. Just a description in other words?
7
1 A. Yes, exactly.
2 17 Q. Right. It would be important for us to actually see
3 these documents themselves. So since they didn't
4 send them to you...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. But did they not send them to you? I thought they
6 sent you everything they possibly could.
7 18 Q. No. They have sent us a general category of but
8 they haven't specifically sent us these?
9 A. I am not even certain if they have a copy of that
10 because... Do you want me to explain just a little
11 about College Trustees?
12 19 Q. Not yet, no, we will come to that. I was really
13 concerned to know whether this was a summary that
14 you had prepared of documents that had been given?
15 A. No, this is what I was sent.
16 20 Q. This is what they sent you?
17 A. Yes .
18 21 Q. That is fine, thank you. Can I just ask you first
19 of all for a brief history of your own career. You
20 were a solicitor until your retirement?
21 A. Yes. I am 73 years of age now. I qualified in
22 1948. I am therefore over 50 years a solicitor.
23 22 Q. Yes .
24 A. Do you mean my general career?
25 23 Q. If I ask you a couple of pointed questions.
26 You were with the firm of Hickey Beauchamp first of
27 all it was Hickey & O'Reilly. We had a merger in
28 1974 with two other firms and became Hickey
29 Beauchamp Kirwan & O'Reilly?

1 24 Q. And did you continue in private practice all during
2 those 50 years?
3 A. No, not at all. My father retired in 1962.
4 25 Q. Yes.
5 A. We did, as Brian can confirm, a very big litigation
6 practice. My father did it for the insurance
7 companies for the defendants.
8 26 Q. Yes?
9 A. I had to take over my father's share of that.
10 27 Q. Yes?
11 A. I did that for about 12 years to 1974. And in 1974
12 we had the merger. At that date I became chairman
13 of the partnership.
14 28 Q. Chairman?
15 A. Of the partnership.
16 29 Q. Yes?
17 A. I retired from full-time practice. I still did some
18 work and indeed some of this work. But I was
19 retired at that stage from full-time practice.
20 I then became a director of a couple of the major
21 companies. I was involved in business
22 and...(INTERJECTION).
23 30 Q. So you diversified into business really at that
24 stage?
25 A. Yes.
26 31 Q. Could we say from 1974 on that your interests were
27 more in business than in practice?
28 A. Yes. I think that is probably right. 50/50 anyway.
29 32 Q. You continued some private practice?
9
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 33 Q. You retired then altogether when?
3 A. I retired completely in 1989 I think it was. I mean
4 I hadn't been in any way active for perhaps four or
5 five years.
6 34 Q. So you retired both from business and from some form
7 of practice?
8 A. No, I retired from the practice in 1989. And then
9 of course I was fired from the two major businesses
10 when I was 65. Under the Articles you have to go.
11 35 Q. Could you tell me what those two business were?
12 A. They were CRH, which of course has given rise to
13 some of this and New Ireland Assurance was the other
14 one.
15 36 Q. And you were a director of both of those companies?
16 A. Yes. And Des Traynor was Chairman of both of them.
17 37 Q. That is right. You retired from both of those at
18 the age of 65?
19 A. That is right.
20 38 Q. And that was when?
21 A. 1992.
22 39 Q. 1992?
23 A. Yes.
24 40 Q. I think that is fine for the career.
25 If we could look at your statement, Mr. Hickey
26 (Exhibit 1)?
27 A. Yes, certainly.
28 41 Q. You talk in your statement about Guinness & Mahon.
29 What I would like to know first of it all is, when
10
1 did you first develop a business relationship with
2 Guinness & Mahon?
3 A. Des Traynor and I both became directors of
4 New Ireland Assurance in 1971 I think it was.
5 42 Q. Yes?
6 A. And of course obviously got to know each other.
7 43 Q. Yes. You had never met him before?
8 A. I had never met him before then, no.
9 44 Q. Yes?
10 A. That was the time when you could set-off all bank
11 interest against your income for tax irrespective of
12 anything.
13 45 Q. Yes?
14 A. And of course an awful lot of businesses in the
15 professional end of the city were in fact doing
16 that.
17 46 Q. Yes?
18 A. They were paying interest to the bank and
19 speculating with what they borrowed from the bank
20 instead of paying tax. Maybe it was all wrong but
21 that is what was being done.
22 47 Q. Yes?
23 A. Of course there was a lot of property speculation.
24 48 Q. Yes?
25 A. I acted as solicitor for New Ireland Assurance.
26 49 Q. You were a solicitor for New Ireland?
27 A. Yes. But that really has nothing to do with this at
28 all.
29 50 Q. Right?
11
1 A. But that gave Traynor information on my performance
2 and apparently he thought that I could be relied on
3 to work efficiently. So I began to do business for
4 Guinness & Mahon.
5 51 Q. As a solicitor?
6 A. As a solicitor, yes. I was a solicitor.
7 52 Q. What I am really interested in at this point is when
8 you began to become a client of Guinness & Mahon?
9 A. I wish I knew exactly when, but I don't.
10 53 Q. Yes?
11 A. Because there was so much speculation going on.
12 And I did some myself.
13 54 Q. Yes?
14 A. But when exactly I started, I don't know. You see,
15 this document they sent me here, they don't know
16 what that date is.
17 55 Q. Yes?
18 A. They said Cathal McCarthy, the law agent of
19 Irish Permanent. I am sure you have come across
20 him?
21 56 Q. Yes?
22 A. He said he thought it was 1971 but he didn't know.
23 57 Q. You are referring to which particular document?
24 A. To Al (Exhibit 1). As you can see there he said he
25 didn't know what they were. And then I wrote 1971.
26 That "1971" is my writing if it is on your copy. I
27 think it was probably around about then
28 because...(INTERJECTION).
29 58 Q. Would that mean, Mr. Hickey, that you were in a

1 client relationship with Guinness & Mahon before you
2 met Des Traynor in 1974?
3 A. Yes up to a point.
4 59 Q. So you did know Guinness & Mahon before that?
5 A. William Forwood and Traynor were sent forward from
6 England to become joint managing directors with
7 Guinness & Mahon. I think it was in 1969.
8 60 Q. Yes?
9 A. I am sorry, I was incorrect, I did know Traynor a
10 short time before we both went on the board of
11 New Ireland.
12 61 Q. So how did you first come to know him then?
13 A. Because of the fact that New Ireland were looking
14 for directors. Somebody had died. I forget who had
15 died. One of the O'Reillys had died and there was
16 this merger at the time going on between
17 Irish Cement and Roadstone.
18 62 Q. Yes?
19 A. Which later became CRH.
20 63 Q. Yes?
21 A. And I had some involvement in that. I am terribly
22 sorry, I did meet Traynor a bit before 1971.
23 64 Q. You met Traynor before 1971?
24 A. Yes but only casually.
25 65 Q. Yes. Would you have begun around that time to
26 borrow from Guinness & Mahon?
27 A. Yes .
28 66 Q. To finance your...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. Yes, I was a client of Guinness & Mahon.

1 67 Q. You were a client?
2 A. I was a client for several deals. But I would like
3 to emphasise -- I don't know if this is the right
4 moment to bring in what I think these are?
5 68 Q. We can go through them when we come to those.
6 We will look at those.
7 A. Yes .
8 69 Q. This is just general background at this stage,
9 Mr. Hickey?
10 A. I am sorry, I did know him before.
11 70 Q. You knew him before?
12 A. Yes .
13 71 Q. You knew him from around the late 1960's?
14 A. About 1969, yes.
15 72 Q. In your statement here (Exhibit 1) -- and this may
16 lead you on to looking at the documents -- you say
17 at
18 paragraph two that you have no files or records save
19 in respect of one matter which happened 22 years
20 ago?
21 A. Yes .
22 73 Q. You say:
"I learned much later, about two years
23 ago, that I was liable to capital gains
tax on the distribution of funds on the
24 liquidation of the company."
25 Would you just tell me about that. What was the
26 company that was liquidated?
27 A. The company that was liquidated was a company called
28 Clonmel Estates Ltd which bought property at the
29 bottom of Abbey Street opposite to where the VHI is

1 now which was the old Brookes Thomas's. It was for
2 warehouse sites there.
3 74 Q. Had you an interest in this company?
4 A. I had a one-third interest in that. That is what
5 this was about.
6 75 Q. Yes. So you were a shareholder?
7 A. I was a one-third shareholder, yes.
8 76 Q. Were you also a director?
9 A. I was also a director, yes.
10 77 Q. So this company was liquidated?
11 A. This company was liquidated long since. You see
12 what happened was, the original intention was to do
13 a major development.
14 78 Q. Yes?
15 A. The times were bad; interest rates were too high.
16 We couldn't get the finance to develop it so we just
17 held on to it in hope. Anyway, then we got word in
18 about 1978 that Irish Life wanted to build their
19 enormous new offices down there and that they were
20 interested in the site.
21 79 Q. Yes?
22 A. So we had some discussion with them and they made us
23 an offer which yielded us a profit of about
24 £210,000.
25 80 Q. Right.
26 A. We were happy to take that and get out. What
27 happened then was, the company was liquidated.
28 There was nothing in it but cash. We decided that
29 there wasn't any point in going to the expense of

1 appointing an accountant to liquidate it, which
2 would be the normal thing to do. I was appointed
3 liquidator and I simply distributed the cash.
4 81 Q. Who were the other shareholders?
5 A. They were foreigners.
6 82 Q. All of them were foreigners?
7 A. Yes.
8 83 Q. Do you have their names?
9 A. I don't know where I stand. First of all they were
10 clients.
11 84 Q. Of yours?
12 A. Yes, they weren't resident here for tax purposes or
13 any other purpose.
14 85 Q. This is really for information. Perhaps you can
15 give us their names?
16 A. I think I am not supposed to because I was acting as
17 their solicitor. I am not supposed to disclose
18 their names.
19 86 Q. Were they also directors?
20 A. No, they were not. There names don't appear
21 anywhere.
22 87 Q. I see?
23 A. Because they didn't want their names to appear
24 anywhere.
25 88 Q. I see?
26 A. The only person whose name was allowed to appear was
27 mine. I was acting as their agent as well as
28 solicitor.
29 89 Q. So you were a one-third shareholder in a company in
16
1 which there were how many other shareholders.
2 Was it just two?
3 A. They weren't actual shareholders, they were sleeping
4 partners if you like.
5 90 Q. Yes?
6 A. They didn't officially appear.
7 91 Q. But they were the beneficial owners?
8 A. They were the beneficial owners. They were
9 beneficially entitled to two thirds.
10 92 Q. On the documents who appeared as the nominee holding
11 those shares?
12 A. I think there were some nominees in our office.
13 I forget where. But they weren't
14 people...(INTERJECTION).
15 93 Q. The shareholders appearing on the title are nominees
16 out of your office?
17 A. I think so. But these people themselves certainly
18 didn't appear.
19 94 Q. I see. Maybe we will come back to that.
20 The company was liquidated and you distributed the
21 profits ?
22 A. Yes .
23 95 Q. In relation to your own share, you then go on to
24 tell us here at paragraph three that your share was:

"Placed on deposit with
25 Guinness & Mahon and I always
understood that it was so."
26 I would like to ask you about that placing on
27 deposit?
28 A. Yes .
29 96 Q. First of all, how did it arise that you came to

1 place it on deposit with Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. You see, you have this document I presume?
3 97 Q. Which one is that. Is this one of the documents
4 that you have provided to us?
5 A. It is not with the A, B, C I have given. I think we
6 made a mistake and left it out of this list.
7 98 Q. Are you giving us a copy of this now?
8 A. If you wish. I am sure you have it somewhere.
9 99 Q. Actually, yes, we do have that document.
10 A. There is no date on it, but it was sometime in 1978
11 (Exhibit 2).
12 100 Q. I am sure I have it. It is page 49.
13 Yes, Mr. Hickey, we do have it.
14 A. What happened was, there was nothing in the company
15 but cash.
16 101 Q. Yes?
17 A. Its debts and all the rest of it had been paid and
18 all expenses. So I simply wrote cheques for a third
19 for myself and paid the other people.
20 102 Q. Yes?
21 A. No, I am sorry, I paid it into Guinness & Mahon.
22 103 Q. Yes. That is what I want to ask you about. When
23 you say you paid it into Guinness & Mahon, did you
24 open an account in your name at that stage?
25 A. No, I didn't.
26 104 Q. This is what I want to find out, what exactly
27 happened. Did you give this cheque to Mr. Traynor?
28 A. Yes, as I did many others.
29 105 Q. Right. Did you discuss first of all with
18
1 Mr. Traynor what was going to happen to this
2 one-third share?
3 A. I did, yes. I told him I wanted it on short-term
4 deposit.
5 106 Q. You wanted the money on short-term deposit?
6 A. Yes because as I said there, I wanted it 18 to
7 24 months later for another...(INTERJECTION).
8 107 Q. What did he say to you when you asked him to do
9 that?
10 A. I don't know whether I dealt with him. I dealt with
11 a fella called Ru Leonard, who is dead.
12 108 Q. For the moment I just want your own recollection,
13 leaving the document aside, of what actually
14 happened. You talked to Mr. Traynor or to somebody
15 about what you would do with this sum?
16 A. I am not even certain if I talked to himself. It
17 was probably Ru Leonard.
18 109 Q. You spoke to Ru Leonard?
19 A. Yes .
20 110 Q. And you said you had a sum of money you wanted to
21 place on short-term deposit?
22 A. Yes. They knew about this; they partly financed it.
23 111 Q. They had financed what?
24 A. They partly financed the purchase of the lands .
25 112 Q. I see, yes. So they were aware then that the
26 company had been liquidated?
27 A. Yes, they knew all about that.
28 113 Q. Yes. Then you said to them that you would like to
29 place your share of the profit on deposit?
19
1 A. Yes, on deposit full stop. I didn't know what they
2 were...(INTERJECTION).
3 114 Q. What did they suggest to you then as a deposit?
4 A. You see, I haven't seen this.
5 115 Q. Just leaving that aside. It is your memory I am
6 interested in?
7 A. They didn't suggest anything to me. I just assumed
8 it was on deposit.
9 116 Q. They said to you 'Yes, we will place it on
10 deposit.'?
11 A. Yes .
12 117 Q. Did they say it was going to be on deposit in
13 Ireland?
14 A. No. I assumed myself that it probably would be
15 because I wanted it quickly.
16 118 Q. You assumed it would be on deposit in Ireland?
17 A. Yes. But I mean, I didn't say that. And it looks
18 as if I was wrong. I have never seen this until
19 recently (Exhibit 2).
20 119 Q. Yes. Is this cheque that is referred to in this
21 £70,214.29 your share?
22 A. Yes. You see, I had paid the whole lot into
23 Guinness & Mahon, all the money. There is another
24 document which I think has an indication of that.
25 It is document B (Exhibit 3).
26 120 Q. Yes .
27 A. You see it refers there to £211,000 opposite my
28 name. The only thing I can assume -- again it is an
29 assumption. I am not swearing it; I just can't --

1 is that that was my share plus the other two
2 shares. You will see these other accounts at the
3 bottom, U3 and U4, I really don't know what they
4 are.
5 121 Q. Where are you talking about U3 and U4?
6 A. At the bottom of this. You see taking off certain
7 expenses -- and Guinness & Mahon may have had some
8 share themselves, I am not quite certain now -- the
9 total was £210,000.
10 122 Q. Yes. That was the total?
11 A. I am sorry, £220,000, three £70,000's. That I think
12 is the £211,000 that I paid into them there.
13 123 Q. Let me just get this clear: You put the total
14 amount on deposit with Guinness & Mahon?
15 A. I paid the total amount to Guinness & Mahon.
16 124 Q. To Guinness & Mahon?
17 A. Yes.
18 125 Q. Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
19 A. Yes.
20 126 Q. To whom did you pay that?
21 A. I don't know which individual. I dealt with a lot
22 of individuals.
23 127 Q. Would you have given that cheque to Mr. Traynor
24 himself?
25 A. I didn't always deal with him.
26 128 Q. I know that, but on this occasion?
27 A. I don't remember, I think probably Ru Leonard
28 actually because he arranged that.
29 129 Q. When you paid that whole sum to Guinness & Mahon, it
21
1 was to hold it on whose behalf?
2 A. It was to do whatever the other people wanted them
3 to do and to put my share on deposit.
4 130 Q. So the other people were also clients of Guinness &
5 Mahon?
6 A. Yes.
7 131 Q. So when you gave that money to Guinness & Mahon, it
8 was put into an account in whose name. I presume
9 you got documents back from them showing that this
10 was on deposit?
11 A. No, I didn't. Guinness & Mahon never gave me
12 documents.
13 132 Q. So you didn't know what had happened?
14 A. I didn't really; I didn't know what happened to the
15 other shares.
16 133 Q. The entire sum, that wasn't put into a collective
17 account?
18 A. No, I don't think so, I think it was separated.
19 I think my money was put on deposit.
20 134 Q. Let me get this clear: You said a few minutes ago
21 that you distributed the funds?
22 A. I distributed them in the sense that I split them
23 up.
24 135 Q. But now you say you gave the whole amount to
25 Guinness & Mahon?
26 A. Yes. I think maybe you are catching me slightly
27 wrong. What I did was, I told Guinness & Mahon
28 what the divide was. The money always went into
29 Guinness & Mahon. All these monies always, the
22
1 whole lot, went into Guinness & Mahon.
2 136 Q. Right?
3 A. And I told them what the divide was and then they
4 put my share on deposit. The other shares weren't
5 my affair.
6 137 Q. So you gave that sum to Guinness & Mahon and you
7 said to them 'This is to be divided up into three
8 thirds'?
9 A. Yes.
10 138 Q. And in regard to your own share?
11 A. I didn't say anything to them, they knew about all
12 of that.
13 139 Q. But they must have had to take instructions, Mr.
14 Hickey, from somebody. You don't hand money to a
15 bank and let them do what they like. You must give
16 them some instruction?
17 A. I am afraid I cannot entirely agree with you there.
18 Mr. Traynor did things...(INTERJECTION).
19 140 Q. Was Mr. Traynor involved in this?
20 A. Of course he was, he knew all about it. He didn't
21 necessarily handle the details but he knew all about
22 it.
23 141 Q. How did he know all about it?
24 A. He knew about everything that went on.
25 142 Q. But how did he know about this. Was he one of the
26 partners in this, one of the shareholders?
27 A. No, I don't think so, although he was in some others
28 as far as I know.
29 143 Q. Right. Were Guinness & Mahon themselves
23
1 shareholders in this?
2 A. They put up some of the money. AIB put up some of
3 the money as far as I remember.
4 144 Q. Yes?
5 A. And I think Guinness & Mahon may have taken some
6 commission. They weren't actually shareholders but
7 they may have taken some commission, which may
8 account for that slight discrepancy.
9 145 Q. I see.
10 A. Then I should say to you what happened was, when the
11 distribution was made I didn't realise that this was
12 a distribution in technical terms and that I was
13 liable for tax as a distribution on the liquidation
14 of the company. That is what was pointed out to me
15 22 years later. That is when I asked Brian to
16 report to the Revenue that tax was paid on my share.
17 146 Q. I am sorry to keep harping back on this but I think
18 it is important that we get it clearly in our minds
19 so as to explain what subsequently happened and what
20 exactly happened here. If I can just summarise what
21 you have told me already?
22 A. Yes of course.
23 147 Q. If I am wrong you will tell me?
24 A. Yes .
25 148 Q. On the liquidation of this company, Clonmel Estates,
26 you and unnamed shareholders were entitled to the
27 funds in the company in the form of cash?
29 149 Q. That amounted to £220,000?

1 A. That was the profit.
2 150 Q. Yes. Was that the entire of the sum?
3 A. I think so, yes.
4 151 Q. That amounted to that. You were entitled to
5 one-third of that?
7 152 Q. You didn't hire an accountant to do the
8 distribution?
9 A. No. This was the mistake we made at the time.
10 153 Q. You were the person who undertook to divide up the
11 funds?
12 A. There was nothing except cash. All I had to do was
13 send the cash to Guinness & Mahon.
14 154 Q. Yes. So you sent the entire sum to
16 A. Yes.
17 155 Q. With no instructions other than what they were to do
18 with your share?
19 A. Yes, that is right.
20 156 Q. The only instructions you gave Guinness & Mahon was
21 in relation to your own share?
22 A. Yes.
23 157 Q. Do you have documents in relation to all of that?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 158 Q. None at all?
26 A. No.
27 159 Q. What would have happened to all of those documents?
28 A. What would have happened to them?
29 160 Q. Yes. I mean if you had documents at the time?
25
1 A. They are long since destroyed. It is 22 years ago.
2 161 Q. You didn't keep documents?
3 A. There would have been a file with the firm of
4 solicitors which is long since gone.
5 162 Q. In Hickey Beauchamp in Hickey Beauchamp there would
6 have been a file, yes?
7 163 Q. And you don't think if we enquired from
8 Hickey Beauchamp now that there would be any copies
9 of that?
10 A. I have enquired and there isn't.
11 164 Q. To get back to what happened, you gave this entire
12 sum in a cheque or a draft?
13 A. Yes.
14 165 Q. To somebody in Guinness & Mahon?
15 A. Yes. To Guinness & Mahon and I probably said to Ru
16 'This is what you have been expecting.' They knew
17 it was coming.
18 166 Q. With that you gave an instruction as to what was
19 happening to your share, which was £70,215?
21 167 Q. With regard to the two-third balance, you gave them
22 no instruction?
23 A. No, it wasn't for me. I had no authority.
24 168 Q. I understand that. How did they know what to do
25 with that?
26 A. Because they knew.
27 169 Q. But from whom would they get instructions. They
28 couldn't just act on their own behalf?
29 A. I am not very certain but I they had their own ways
26
1 of doing things.
2 170 Q. You were acting on behalf of the other two
3 shareholders there.
4 A. But I didn't give them any instructions. They just
5 simply put it all on deposit. That is what they
6 did.
7 171 Q. I am trying to clarify what your role was here
8 vis-a-vis the other shareholders because the other
9 shareholders were trusting you to look after this
10 money?
11 A. Yes but it was to send it to Guinness & Mahon. That
12 was all I was to do.
13 172 Q. Yes. With no indication as to who it was for?
14 A. No.
15 173 Q. Were Guinness & Mahon aware of who the beneficial
16 owners of this money were?
17 A. I don't think they were actually. They may have
18 been but I don't think they were.
19 174 Q. So what were they to do with the money then?
20 A. Just put it on deposit.
21 175 Q. For who; in whose name?
22 A. All in my name initially anyway.
23 176 Q. All in your name?
24 A. Yes because they didn't know who the other people
25 were.
26 177 Q. That is what I am getting at. So this entire sum
27 was put on deposit in your name?
28 A. I don't know, honestly, I don't know. I think it
29 probably was but I just don't know.
27
1 178 Q. Right.
2 A. I think it is that £216,000's there. That is
3 what I think it is.
4 179 Q. That was to be put on deposit then for a short-term?
5 A. Mine for a short-term.
6 180 Q. What about the rest?
7 A. For the other there was no
8 particular...(INTERJECTION).
9 181 Q. There was no term on it?
10 A. No.
11 182 Q. But it was to sit there. And to whom was
12 information to be given about it. Was it to you?
13 A. To me because the other people as I said to you were
14 foreigners. They were not resident here.
15 183 Q. Yes?
16 A. They were not resident here either for tax or for
17 any other purpose.
18 184 Q. I understand. The information in relation to their
19 share of this deposit was to be given to you?
20 A. Yes.
21 185 Q. So you would get statements from the bank?
22 A. If any were required at all. These people didn't
23 take any notice of the thing for years.
24 186 Q. Yes. But you were acting as you said as their
25 solicitor?
26 A. Yes.
27 187 Q. You were the person that dealt with it, if there was
28 anything to deal with?
28
1 188 Q. In other words, if these people wanted to know what
2 the state of their deposit was they would contact
3 you?
4 A. They would, yes.
5 189 Q. And you would contact Guinness & Mahon?
7 190 Q. And Guinness & Mahon would tell you and you would
8 relay information back to them?
9 A. Yes.
10 191 Q. So you were the person?
11 A. But they didn't come near me for years.
12 192 Q. Yes. When they eventually came near you then, was
13 it to withdraw all that money or to just find out?
14 A. What happened was, as far as I know, after
15 Des Traynor died in 1994 an awful lot of people
16 withdrew money from the Cayman accounts.
17 193 Q. Yes?
18 A. And I think this money was simply repatriated to
19 Europe. It certainly never came back here.
20 194 Q. This money was in a Cayman account?
21 A. I think it was, yes.
22 195 Q. And you knew it was there during that period.
23 This is the other people we are talking about?
24 A. I suppose I did. I didn't take much notice of it.
25 196 Q. The statements that you were getting, was it
26 Mr. Traynor himself who would give you occasional
27 statements?
28 A. No, he never dealt with details like that.
29 197 Q. Who would give you the statements?
29
1 A. Some of the other officials. There was a whole load
2 of them. There were a half a dozen officials there.
3 198 Q. Normally who would you contact?
4 A. There was Leonard. There was Lannigan O'Keeffe.
5 199 Q. Yes?
6 A. I cannot think of their names.
7 200 Q. They were the ones you would contact?
8 A. Yes. Traynor himself you only contacted if there
9 was some major crisis.
10 201 Q. This money -- the other two-thirds of this money --
11 was in a Cayman Island account, an account in the
12 name of Ansbacher in Cayman?
13 A. As far as I knew. But don't forget, this started in
14 1978. There was no such thing as Ansbacher then.
15 202 Q. No, at that stage it was called Guinness Mahon
16 Cayman Trust Ltd.
17 A. That is where I believe he put it.
18 203 Q. Yes. What you were aware of at that stage is that
19 it was in an account with a subsidiary of
20 Guinness & Mahon called Guinness & Mahon Cayman
21 Trust Ltd ?
22 A. That is right, as far as I know.
23 204 Q. In the Cayman Islands?
24 A. That's right. And it was earning interest there.
25 205 Q. And it was earning interest there. In relation to
26 your own share of it, did you understand that it was
27 also in Guinness Mahon Cayman?
28 A. I was not certain of that. The reason I say that is
29 because I told them that it was short-term.
30
1 206 Q. Yes?
2 A. That I wanted the money for another speculation,
3 which I did.
4 207 Q. Yes?
5 A. I withdrew it. The other was the Dolphin, which I
6 will explain to you later. We started the Dolphin
7 in 1980 and I withdrew that money about 1980.
8 208 Q. Yes?
9 A. I didn't withdraw it in the form of a backing loan.
10 209 Q. Yes?
11 A. I simply withdrew it.
12 210 Q. You withdrew it?
13 A. I just withdrew the cash.
14 211 Q. In relation to that cash, it now appears it was on a
15 short-term deposit with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
16 Ltd?
17 A. Yes.
18 212 Q. It was earning no doubt interest during that period?
19 A. It was, yes.
20 213 Q. Can I ask you, did you declare that interest?
21 A. Yes. As I say in the statement here, every year I
22 insisted that Guinness & Mahon give me the usual
23 statement that we all have to get from our bank.
24 214 Q. Yes?
25 A. For interest paid for the year to 5th April, and
26 every year Guinness & Mahon issued those interest
27 statements to me.
28 215 Q. Did those statements that Guinness & Mahon gave to
29 you cover a deposit in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
31
1 Ltd, which was not their...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. I presume they paid them.
3 216 Q. I think it wasn't their habit because that would
4 have been a separate statement that would have come
5 from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd?
6 A. I do not think it worked that way. They simply gave
7 me a statement. You see, there were other deposits
8 and I didn't know which was which. It was all other
9 transactions.
10 217 Q. Right. The other deposits for which they would give
11 you statements, were they deposits here in Ireland?
12 A. Yes.
13 218 Q. As far as you knew what you were declaring to the
14 Revenue Commissioners was interest earned on
15 deposits here in Ireland?
16 A. No, I was simply declaring what I was given from
17 Guinness & Mahon.
18 219 Q. Yes. But you were not specifically aware that that
19 might have included overseas deposits?
20 A. I don't know quite honestly. I am not certain
21 whether I was aware at that stage or not.
22 I think I probably was actually but I am not
23 certain.
24 220 Q. You are not certain?
25 A. No.
26 221 Q. In relation to that whole episode of
27 Clonmel Estates, was Stokes Kennedy Crowley involved
28 in advising on that at that time?
29 A. Honestly I am not certain; I think they probably did
32
1 accounts for us. Honestly I don't remember at this
2 stage.
3 222 Q. Yes .
4 A. They certainly were involved in some of the other
5 matters. Of course they did my accounts all the
6 time. They got certificates of interest. If they
7 had thought that there was anything not right about
8 this, I presume they would have raised it with me.
9 But they didn't.
10 223 Q. Yes. What we can agree on now is that the entire
11 proceeds of this Clonmel Estates or the entire money
12 that was available on liquidation was in an account
13 in what is now Ansbacher Cayman, what was then
14 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
15 A. I think that is probably correct, yes.
16 224 Q. Yours was in maybe a separate account in the same
17 name on a short-term deposit?
18 A. Yes .
19 225 Q. It appears from the document?
20 A. I am not certain but I think it was.
21 226 Q. And interest accrued on those accounts?
22 A. Interest would have accrued.
23 227 Q. As far as you knew, your evidence now is that that
24 interest was included in the statements of interest
25 given to you by Guinness & Mahon?
26 A. Yes because I wasn't certain where my account was.
27 228 Q. You weren't sure?
28 A. And I had told them it was short-term.
29 229 Q. Yes, I understand that. Did you have a trust

1 established in the Cayman Islands?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 230 Q. You didn't?
4 A. No.
5 231 Q. Were you ever advised by Des Traynor or anybody from
6 Stokes Kennedy Crowley to set up a discretionary
7 trust overseas?
8 A. No, I never did. But there were various discussions
9 about various things. And there is a reference here
10 to the Gerald Hickey trust (Exhibit 4).
11 232 Q. I will come to that in a moment?
12 A. Quite frankly what that is about I don't know.
13 I never knew about that.
14 233 Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Mr. Traynor and
15 Mr. Reed of Stokes Kennedy Crowley in which there
16 was talk of setting up a discretionary fund?
17 A. Yes, I did, and I was involved in it and all these
18 things. It was almost his alter ego.
19 234 Q. Did they suggest to you at one stage that you set up
20 a discretionary fund?
21 A. I think they did. But you see, I had nothing in
22 particular to put into it.
23 235 Q. Yes?
24 A. I was simply dealing here and taking in effect
25 short-term profits and short-term losses also.
26 236 Q. Yes?
27 A. Then I wasn't really dealing offshore at all in that
28 sense. And I borrowed money from Guinness & Mahon
29 here and used that for speculation here.
34
1 237 Q. Can you recollect the conversation that you had with
2 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Reid in which it was suggested
3 that you might set up a discretionary fund?
4 A. It wasn't just me, it was a general suggestion about
5 trust for a number of people. There were various
6 different people involved at that stage.
7 238 Q. Were all those people present at this particular
8 meeting?
9 A. I don't know. They wouldn't all have been present.
10 I honestly do not know.
11 239 Q. The situation is that you were at a meeting with
12 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Reid at which a couple of other
13 people at least would have been present?
14 A. Yes but I was at many meetings with them about other
15 things.
16 240 Q. No, this is a meeting about a discussion about
17 discretionary trusts?
18 A. It may have occurred in the course of one of the
19 other meetings.
20 241 Q. I see. You cannot remember?
21 A. I can't honestly remember.
22 242 Q. Yes. But is your evidence that you never in fact
23 took up the suggestion of establishing a trust.
24 A. No, I never set up a trust in Cayman.
25 243 Q. Or in the Channel Islands?
26 A. No, I had no trust.
27 244 Q. So the references then in the documents that we have
28 here to the Gerald Hickey trust, you say you don't
29 know what that is?
35
1 A. I just do not know what that is. They are very much
2 later.
3 245 Q. Yes?
4 A. Yes, it was earlier 1974 Gerald Hickey Trust.
5 In 1974 it certainly wasn't Cayman I think.
6 24 6 Q. Have you the document there that is headed
7 "Gerald Hickey Trust share certificates." Are we
8 looking at the same one. I am referring to page 41
9 of our brief (Exhibit 5)?
10 A. No, share certificate, I haven't got that one.
11 247 Q. We will give one to you, Mr. Hickey (same handed)
12 Mr. Hickey, this is a document that we got from
13 Guinness & Mahon. It is headed:
14 "Gerald Hickey Trust share certificate number three
15 dated 21st February covering 9998 shares in
16 Crane Holdings in the name of Nifold Investments
17 Jersey Ltd." It say:
18 "I confirm having received the above

share certificate from Guinness & Mahon
19 Ltd, College Green, Dublin 2."
20
21 It is signed Gerald Hickey on 28th May 1993.
22 Is that your signature, Mr. Hickey?
23 A. That is my signature.
24 248 Q. Do you recollect signing this thing in 1993?
25 A. No, I don't quite frankly. Don't forget, this whole
26 thing failed. This was the Dolphin development.
27 249 Q. We will come to that. We haven't talked about that
28 yet.
29 A. Money had been lost.
36
1 250 Q. I just want to look at this document a bit more
2 closely. It is headed Gerald Hickey Trust?
3 A. Yes.
4 251 Q. And it talks about a share certificate covering
5 shares in Crane Holdings in the name
6 of...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. But Crane Holdings and Nifold were both Irish
8 companies.
9 252 Q. I want to ask you what they were?
10 A. Yes. Crane Holdings was the company that owned the
11 Dolphin Hotel.
12 253 Q. Crane Holdings owned the Dolphin Hotel?
13 A. Yes, in the first instance.
14 254 Q. Right.
15 A. And then it was subsequently transferred to a
16 company called Nemean.
17 255 Q. Yes. Can we just talk about Crane Holdings first?
18 A. Yes.
19 256 Q. Crane Holdings was incorporated by you, was it?
20 A. In Ireland, yes.
21 257 Q. In Ireland?
22 A. Yes.
23 258 Q. In around when?
24 A. About 1974 or 1975.
25 259 Q. And was it incorporated to hold the shares in the
26 Dolphin Hotel?
27 A. Yes, it was incorporated to buy the Dolphin Hotel
28 itself. It was the actual purchaser of the
29 Dolphin Hotel.
37
1 260 Q. And did it subsequently trade then?
2 A. Again, there was a planning permission problem. We
3 simply held the Dolphin. It had a licence and we
4 used to let the pub trade go ahead even though there
5 was nothing up above. And that went on for about
6 two years or more.
7 261 Q. Yes?
8 A. Then I got a kind of an indication that the State
9 was interested in it for a Court. As you know, the
10 Circuit Court is there.
11 262 Q. Yes?
12 A. That is the only reason I took a chance on the
13 development. I was wrong because the price of the
14 building went bananas in the course of the
15 construction. If there was a Gerald Hickey
16 Trust -- which there may have been; I don't
17 remember -- it was here. It wasn't a trust in
18 Cayman or anywhere.
19 263 Q. When you say there may have been and you don't
20 remember?
21 A. I just don't honestly remember.
22 264 Q. You think there may have been?
23 A. They refer to it.
24 265 Q. Just because of that?
25 A. Yes .
26 A. There was no limited company or trust deed.
27 266 Q. Just getting back to Crane Holdings, it held the
28 shares in the Dolphin Hotel?
29 A. No, it owned the hotel itself.

1 267 Q. And you subsequently did a development there?
2 A. Yes. That started in 1980. That is why I wanted
3 the money back.
4 268 Q. According to this the shareholder in Crane was
5 Nifold Investments?
6 A. Yes. That was because there was an intention that
7 if a profit had been made that the profit would be
8 exported.
9 269 Q. Yes. And what was Nifold Investments?
10 A. It was a Jersey company but it never did anything.
11 270 Q. And did you incorporate that company?
12 A. No, sure I couldn't have incorporated a Jersey
13 company.
14 271 Q. Did you seek to have...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Somebody provided it, yes.
16 272 Q. It was your company?
17 A. Yes. I think Traynor provided it.
18 273 Q. Mr. Traynor provided it?
19 A. Well Guinness & Mahon provided it.
20 274 Q. Was Mr. Traynor involved in advising on this
21 holding?
22 A. No, I don't think so. Actually, he may have been
23 apart from providing the company I think.
24 275 Q. How did he -- how did it come about that
25 Guinness & Mahon or Mr. Traynor was asked to provide
26 a company in relation to this holding?
27 A. Because it was known that he supplied Jersey
28 companies.
29 276 Q. It was you who asked him?
39
1 A. Yes. I got the company from him.
2 277 Q. You wanted a Jersey company?
3 A. My idea was that if we made a profit on the
4 Dolphin Hotel, that profit would be put offshore.
5 And again, that the same situation would pertain.
6 278 Q. Nifold Investments was set up for the purpose of
7 holding any profit that might come in?
8 A. Yes. But none came unfortunately. I think the only
9 reason that exists there is because Guinness & Mahon
10 were tidying up and they wanted to get rid of the
11 certificate and they sent it back to me and asked me
12 to sign the receipt for it.
13 279 Q. Right. You remember that was the situation?
14 A. Yes, I think I remember that alright.
15 280 Q. Yes. Now since this document is headed
16 "Gerald Hickey Trust" and refers to shares held by
17 Nifold, it would seem from this document that Nifold
18 was in some way connected with the
19 Gerald Hickey Trust. Is it possible that
20 Nifold Investments was a company that was going to
21 hold monies that would be settled on a trust to be
22 established in Jersey or the Channel Islands?
23 A. No, the company that I had some interest in in
24 Jersey was Twin Lakes.
25 281 Q. Right?
26 A. Nifold never became operative at all.
27 282 Q. Yes. Tell me about Twin Lakes then?
28 A. You can see that is referred to later as well.
29 283 Q. Yes. If you just tell me in your own words about it
40
1 rather than from the document?
2 A. It was a small company here.
3 284 Q. Yes?
4 A. Again I see Gerald Hickey Trust referred to there.
5 There was never any formal Gerald Hickey trust in
6 the sense of a limited company or trustees or
7 anything like that that I know of.
8 285 Q. Just tell me about Twin Lakes. Was Twin Lakes a
9 company incorporated in Jersey?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 286 Q. Again, did you cause it to be incorporated or ask
12 for it to be incorporated?
14 287 Q. From Des Traynor?
16 288 Q. When was that?
17 A. That would have been about 1972 or 1973.
18 289 Q. Were there two Twin Lake companies, one called
19 Twin Lake Investments and the other called
20 Twin Lake Jersey?
21 A. No, that is a misprint.
22 290 Q. Is that a misprint?
23 A. Yes.
24 291 Q. What was name of the company then?
25 A. Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.
26 292 Q. There is no Twin Lake Investments Ltd.
27 A. No, that is a mistake.
28 293 Q. Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.
29 A. Yes.
41
1 294 Q. What was the purpose of this company being provided
2 by Mr. Traynor?
3 A. Twin Lakes (Jersey)?
4 295 Q. Yes?
5 A. The one on document C £75,000.
6 296 Q. What are you referring to?
7 A. To item C.
8 297 Q. To document C (Exhibit 1)?
9 A. Yes.
10 298 Q. Document C of your documents?
11 A. Yes.
12 299 Q. If you want to take a break at any stage?
13 A. No, I will carry on while I can.
14 300 Q. Twin Lakes was provided by Des Traynor?
15 A. Provided by Guinness &Mahon.
16 301 Q. By Guinness & Mahon for what purpose?
17 A. For the purpose of holding the shares.
18 302 Q. In what?
19 A. In a company. I forget the name of the company.
20 It doesn't matter anyway. This company bought a
21 property in Grafton Street. And I made a profit on
22 the buying and selling of that property.
23 303 Q. Yes?
24 A. How much the profit was I am not certain because
25 that £75,000 referred to in C, I think that was the
26 whole purchase money. Obviously only a part of it
27 was the profit. I just cannot remember.
28 304 Q. So this company that Twin Lake had shares in was a
29 company which you were the beneficial owner of, is
42
1 that right?
2 A. If you like I was the beneficial owner of Twin Lakes
3 when Twin Lakes was the beneficial owner of the
4 shares in that company.
5 305 Q. Right.
6 A. Which owned the Grafton Street property.
7 306 Q. Ultimately the profits made by that company would go
8 to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 307 Q. You made a profit. That profit then went to
11 Twin Lakes?
12 A. It went to Twin Lakes. It went according to that to
13 Gerald Hickey Trust.
14 308 Q. Leaving that document aside, it is your recollection
15 and your account that I am interested in now. Your
16 recollection of this is that the profit on this
17 transaction went to Twin lakes?
18 A. It went to Twin Lakes.
19 309 Q. In Jersey?
20 A. Yes. It wasn't £75,000, that was the whole purchase
21 money I think.
22 310 Q. Right.
23 A. I think the profit made on it was something like
24 £25,000.
25 311 Q. Yes?
26 A. That is only recollection.
27 312 Q. In any event it was a profit and it went out to
28 Twin Lakes in Jersey?
29 A. Yes. But that is way back; that is 1974.
43
1 313 Q. Yes. Is it a possibility Mr. Traynor or
2 Guinness & Mahon in dealing with your two Jersey
3 companies, Nifold and Twin Lake would have had in
4 mind that they would hold monies that would be
5 settled on a Jersey trust?
6 A. Perhaps they I but it certainly didn't happen.
7 314 Q. As far as you knew the monies went to
8 Twin Lakes. You say no money went to Nifold, is
9 that right?
11 315 Q. The money that went to Twin Lakes was where then.
12 Where was that invested?
13 A. Guinness & Mahon had very little to do with
14 Twin Lakes except providing it.
15 316 Q. Yes?
16 A. And then I dealt with it myself afterwards and I
17 passed the profit to Jersey.
18 317 Q. Yes. Where in Jersey was it?
19 A. I forget, some bank in Jersey.
20 318 Q. Was it a Guinness & Mahon Jersey trust, a subsidiary
21 of Guinness & Mahon?
22 A. It could have been. I honestly forget. It went to
23 a Jersey bank anyway.
24 319 Q. If you look at your document C (Exhibit 1), the note
25 on it says "references herein are taken from the
26 bank statements of Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust
27 Ltd.
28 A. Maybe that is where the money went to. I know the
29 money went to Jersey.

1 320 Q. It seems from a statement of Guinness & Mahon Jersey
2 Trust Ltd, which appears in this document, that
3 lodgements were made to Guinness & Mahon Jersey
4 Trust of a cheque to the Gerald Hickey Trust for
5 £75,000. And also there is a debit to Twin Lakes of
6 £375?
7 A. Yes. I must say if they had the trust, I never knew
8 about it.
9 321 Q. You didn't know about it?
10 A. I was dealing with Twin Lakes (Jersey) myself.
11 322 Q. Yes?
12 A. Straightforward from me to the company.
13 323 Q. Yes. We can pass on from there.
14 Can I show you documents at page 21 and 23.
15 I will pass these two documents to you, Mr. Hickey.
16 (Same handed) page 21 is a statement from Ansbacher
17 Cayman Ltd. You can see that up in the top
18 left-hand corner there (Exhibit 6)?
19 A. Yes .
20 324 Q. It is not very clear but it is a bank statement of
21 Ansbacher Cayman Limited with Henry Ansbacher in
22 London?
23 A. Yes .
24 325 Q. It is an account in the name of Ansbacher Cayman in
25 Henry Ansbacher & Company, London. We have blotted
26 out everything except the reference to yourself.
27 We have "G. Hickey" and then there is a figure of
28 £82,005, a debit to that account?
29 A. I don't know what that is about.

1 326 Q. You don't know what that is about?
2 A. It may have been a borrowing for some speculation or
3 other but I really don't know what it is about.
4 I have never seen that before.
5 327 Q. You have never seen that before?
6 A. No.
7 328 Q. The date of that statement is up at the very top, up
8 beside "Ansbacher Cayman Ltd" in the middle as
9 "24th June 1996." Do you see that?
10 A. That is extraordinary.
11 329 Q. What this appears to indicate is that there was a
12 payment to you. And in fact the date of the
13 transaction is here on the statement as
14 21st June 1996 of £82,000. It is a payment in
15 sterling of £82,000 which was debited to Ansbacher
16 Cayman's account in Henry Ansbacher?
17 A. Which was debited to mean a payment to me?
18 330 Q. Yes, a payment to you?
19 A. That is a debit?
20 331 Q. Yes?
21 A. Yes. I honestly am totally taken aback. I am
22 really totally taken aback by that.
23 332 Q. You don't know what that could be to do with?
24 A. No.
25 333 Q. You can keep that document, Mr. Hickey?
26 A. It might refer to the repatriation after he died .
27 334 Q. Yes, that is right?
28 A. It might refer to the repatriation of the other
29 money I was telling you about, the other shares .
46
1 335 Q. Would they be repatriated to you?
2 A. No, not to me, it would have gone I would have
3 thought straight to Europe. But he may have put it
4 through something in London, I just don't know.
5 336 Q. It is made payable to you whatever this sum is?
6 A. I can tell you I did not.
7 337 Q. That would be a very small amount all the same,
8 wouldn't it. Would that amount equate the other two
9 shares at that stage?
10 A. My share was £70,000.
11 338 Q. Yes?
12 A. That might be one of the other two.
13 339 Q. Just one?
14 A. Yes.
15 340 Q. But why would one be made payable to you?
16 A. I don't know.
17 341 Q. Doesn't it seem unlikely that in 1996 the £70,000
18 would only have amounted to £82,000. There must
19 have been transactions in between?
20 A. They may have drawn on it.
21 342 Q. But were you not dealing with it for them?
22 A. Yes, not entirely. They may have...(INTERJECTION).
23 343 Q. But they weren't dealing directly?
24 A. I don't know. I don't think they did but they might
25 have.
26 344 Q. Do you recollect making withdrawals for the other
27 shareholders?
28 A. No, I don't.
29 345 Q. Or asking to have withdrawals made for them?
47
1 A. No, I don't. I have no recollection of that.
2 346 Q. The only explanation that you can think of for this
3 is that this was one of the shares and that it was
4 being paid to you. That would mean that you would
5 have to give it then to the other person. Would
6 that be right?
7 A. Maybe that I was supposed to put that through then
8 to Europe.
9 347 Q. Do you recollect that happening in 1996?
10 A. No, I don't. But as far as I understand they did
11 repatriate. I told you this; they repatriated the
12 money to Europe after Traynor died.
13 348 Q. At this stage I have to ask you who the two
14 shareholders were. It is relevant to our
15 investigation because it is clear now that they were
16 both persons or entities who held money in
17 Ansbacher Cayman. And we are obliged as part of our
18 terms of reference to identify such persons. So I
19 must ask you who they were?
20 A. I am in the difficulty that I might have to say I
21 must seek formal legal advice because I was told
22 that I was not entitled to disclose the name of the
23 clients. These people, as I say, were continentals.
24 They were nothing whatever to do with tax in this
25 country.
26 349 Q. So is your position that until you take further
27 legal advice you are not answering that question?
28 A. I have taken the advice. I have been advised that
29 I shouldn't.
48
1 350 Q. So you are refusing to answer that question?
2 A. I think I have to honestly. I am not trying to be
3 uncooperative.
4 351 Q. I understand. But I want to be clear that you are
5 refusing?
6 A. I think I have to at the moment.
7 352 Q. I see, right.
8 A. I don't know where they are now. I think one of
9 them is dead and I am not certain in Europe where
10 they are.
11 353 Q. Were there two or more?
12 A. Two people, husband and wife. And the husband is
13 dead.
14 354 Q. They were shareholders in Clonmel Estates?
15 A. They weren't shareholders, they had an interest.
16 There was no registration of them as shareholders .
17 355 Q. They weren't the registered shareholders?
18 A. No.
19 356 Q. But they were the beneficial owners of those other
20 shares?
21 A. I was holding two-thirds for them.
22 357 Q. They were registered in your name rather than
23 somebody else?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. BOHAN: They may have been
26 registered in nominee
27 names rather than in yours directly.
28 A. Yes, they may have been in nominee names. That is
29 right, yes. But I am not quite certain.
49
1 I have never seen that until now.
2 358 Q. Yes .
3 A. I don't know what is in this one.
4 359 Q. Maybe we will look at the other one?
5 A. I have never seen it either. That is outrageous. I
6 never had anything to do with
7 Irish Intercontinental Bank.
8 360 Q. Mr. Hickey, a lot of people are taken aback by Irish
9 Intercontinental Bank. That is very simply
10 explained by this: Anybody who had monies with
11 Ansbacher Cayman were able to use funds held in the
12 name of Ansbacher Cayman in Guinness & Mahon up to
13 1991/1992 at which stage the account of
14 Ansbacher Cayman in Guinness & Mahon was closed and
15 transferred to Irish Intercontinental Bank. That
16 didn't necessarily mean that the people dealing with
17 Ansbacher Cayman knew that this account was moved to
18 Irish Intercontinental so that is why you wouldn't
19 necessarily know that you had any dealing with
20 Irish Intercontinental Bank?
21 A. Yes .
22 361 Q. Nevertheless Irish Intercontinental Bank was dealing
23 with the Ansbacher Cayman account and so whenever
24 Mr. Traynor wished to have money transferred to the
25 Ansbacher Cayman account he would give instructions
26 to Irish Intercontinental Bank and they would
27 transfer it or do whatever the transaction was.
28 What this appears to relate to here is, this is a
29 telefax from John Furze as you see up there on the
50
1 top (Exhibit 7)?
2 A. Yes .
3 362 Q. Unfortunately our photocopy is very bad and you
4 cannot see the full title, but you will have to
5 believe me that it is Cayman International Bank &
6 Trust Group. Over on the right-hand side you will
7 see the address. It is PO BOX 887, Grand Cayman,
8 British West Indies, which is the address of
9 Ansbacher?
10 A. Yes .
11 363 Q. Mr. John Furze you may have heard of or you may
12 know?
13 A. I heard of him.
14 364 Q. You heard of him?
15 A. Yes .
16 365 Q. He was one of the managing directors of
17 Ansbacher Cayman?
18 A. Yes, I had heard about him.
19 366 Q. It was then called Cayman International Bank &
20 Trust. He is writing from what is now Ansbacher and
21 what at that time was called Cayman International
22 Bank & Trust to Irish Intercontinental Bank?
23 A. Yes .
24 367 Q. Referring to our "account number 02010807-81."
25 You see that down at the bottom. "Debit our account
26 number."
27 A. Yes, I see that.
28 368 Q. He is asking to have Ansbacher's account in
29 Irish Intercontinental Bank debited with an amount

1 that is to go to your account in Lloyds Bank?
2 A. Yes, I have an account in Lloyds Bank,
3 Knightsbridge.
4 369 Q. This is 1994. Would you recollect seeking to
5 withdraw money from Cayman in 1994?
6 A. I don't think I did.
7 370 Q. And transferring it to your account?
8 A. I do not think I did because I had no reason to.
9 I didn't particularly want money. But, again, you
10 never really knew what was going on in
12 371 Q. Yes?
13 A. I think that was after Traynor was dead.
14 372 Q. Yes. Trayor died in May of that year?
15 A. That is right, yes. I don't know what it was about
16 but of course the Twin Lakes thing, there was money
17 in some havens as they call them.
18 373 Q. Yes?
19 374 Q. And that may have been moved around?
20 375 Q. Yes?
21 A. He was an incredible man for moving money around
22 anywhere he felt like.
23 376 Q. When Mr. Traynor died if you wished to give
24 instructions in relation to any of the monies held
25 on behalf of these two people who held monies in
26 Clonmel or on behalf of your own deposits, who did
27 you contact in Guinness & Mahon after Mr. Traynor's
28 death. Was it Mr. Collery?
29 A. No, I don't think it was Padraig Collery.

1 It was either Mr. Collery or Mr. Corbett.
2 377 Q. But he wasn't in Guinness & Mahon?
3 378 Q. He had been?
4 379 Q. But at this time he was...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. Yes, at this time he was doing... It must have been
6 Mr. Collery. I know them both.
7 380 Q. Do you recollect contacting Mr. Field-Corbett to do
8 transactions ?
9 A. No, I do not.
10 381 Q. Is it possible that this is something you would ask
11 Mr. Collery to do perhaps?
12 A. To do what?
13 382 Q. This transaction we are looking at in relation to
14 Irish Intercontinental Bank. The John Furze
15 telefax?
16 A. I might have. Why I should have got £12,000
17 sterling.
18 383 Q. Did you meet Mr. Furze himself ever?
19 A. I once met him.
20 384 Q. Where you in correspondence with him?
21 A. No.
22 385 Q. Could you have asked him to make this transfer?
23 A. No, never.
24 386 Q. He wouldn't have done this on your instructions?
25 A. No, he would not. I met him once in Dublin.
26 387 Q. So if he did this on your behalf, it could only be
27 on the instructions of someone in either
28 Guinness & Mahon or representing Ansbacher here in
29 Ireland?
1 A. I think that is probably so, yes.
2 388 Q. That would be the case?
3 A. Yes. But £12,000 is a funny sum. I don't know
4 where it comes from.
5 389 Q. I would like to have a short word with Mr. Rowan.
6 Could we step out for a moment?
7 A. Of course, yes.
8 390 Q. Could we step into the hall?
9 A. Yes of course.
10
11 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
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54
1 INTERVIEW RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:
3 A. I was trying to find out where I was in June 1996.
4 My wife drew my attention to the fact that we were
5 at Royal Ascot.
6 391 Q. That is a good place to be.
7 A. So maybe there was some reason for putting money
8 into my account in Lloyds in London.
9 392 Q. Because you were in London.
10 MR. BOHAN: Lloyds was 1994.
11 A. Was that 1994, I am sorry.
12 MS. MACKEY: Mr. Hickey, we shouldn't
13 have to delay you much
14 longer at all. I would like to show you a couple of
15 other documents. Can I show you a document at
16 page 36 of our brief. This is an extract from a
17 meeting of the board of directors of
18 Guinness & Mahon on 28th November 1974 (Exhibit 8).
19 A. Yes, I have this.
20 393 Q. You have a copy of that. The heading is
21 "Resident loans £10,000 and over" and you see your
22 name there?
23 A. Yes.
24 394 Q. With present balance £261,306?
25 A. Yes.
26 395 Q. This is 1974. The repayment date is
27 31st March 1975 and the comment is "suitably secured
28 excess due to interest."
29 A. Yes.
55
1 396 Q. "Suitably secured" Guinness & Mahon has explained
2 many times in public in the Moriarty Tribunal, and
3 it is now common knowledge that when they use this
4 phrase they mean secured on a deposit with one of
5 their offshore subsidiaries?
6 A. As I said to you in the letter, I know they did that
7 but I don't think that everything they said was
8 suitably secured meant that.
9 397 Q. Can I ask you, did you have loans from
11 A. Yes .
12 398 Q. That were secured in offshore deposits?
13 A. No, I don't think so. Well sorry, I may have had.
14 I may have had something that that was paid out of.
15 399 Q. Would they have been secured on your deposits either
16 in Cayman or in the Channel Islands?
17 A. It might have been one or the other. They were
18 switching money around.
19 400 Q. It is possible that your loans secured on your
20 offshore deposits?
21 A. It is possible. But they would be small. They
22 would be very small.
23 401 Q. Yes, I understand. I don't think I need to ask you
24 any other questions. Mr. Rowan will have some
25 questions all right. If I could ask you one other
26 final thing, Mr. Hickey: In talking about your
27 Cayman deposit I was asking you about the tax
28 situation and you said Guinness & Mahon sent you the
29 certificates ?
1 A. Yes.
2 402 Q. Of interest?
3 A. Yes.
4 403 Q. In relation to tax accruing in your account in
5 Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust, would you have
6 declared that also?
7 A. Yes. They would have sent certificates of interest.
8 404 Q. Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust would have?
9 A. Whoever any deposit I had abroad as far as I
10 understand it, I got a certificate of interest paid.
11 Interest credited or interest paid.
12 405 Q. You would have declared that?
13 A. I would have declared that. I sent them to SKC.
14 406 Q. You sent them to SKC?
15 A. Yes.
16 407 Q. And they declared them?
17 A. They would declare them.
18 408 Q. Presumably SKC would have documents relating to
19 these companies. Would they?
20 A. I don't think so. I think they are long since gone.
21 409 Q. Mr. Reid was involved in all of these?
22 A. Yes.
23 410 Q. He might recollect if we were to ask him?
24 A. I don't think he has anything either.
25 He is a bit like Mr. Traynor. He didn't put things
26 in writing if possible.
27 411 Q. I see. I have no further questions, Mr. Hickey.
28 Mr. Rowan has a few questions for you.
29 And then you can say what you would like to say
57
1 about your documents.
3 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. HICKEY BY MS. MACKEY
10
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58
1 MR. HICKEY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN
3 412 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Hickey, the Twin Lakes
4 Jersey Ltd company, you
5 explained to Ms. Mackey that you were the beneficial
6 owner of this company?
7 A. Yes, as far as I remember.
8 413 Q. Were you the beneficial owner because you held an
9 interest in an intermediate body or did you actually
10 hold the shares yourself?
11 A. No, I think I held them myself. I am not quite
12 certain. The company of course is gone and
13 liquidated long since.
14 414 Q. I am not entirely clear. I am a little confused
15 from the papers where some abbreviations are used at
16 times?
17 A. Yes.
18 415 Q. What was the correct name of the Twin Lakes company?
19 A. Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.
20 416 Q. Right?
21 A. That is my recollection. There was no such thing as
22 Twin Lakes Investments. Remember, Brian, I said to
23 you that was a mistake?
24 MR. BOHAN: That is right.
25 417 Q. MR. ROWAN: We can see from
26 Document E -- if I could
27 ask you to turn to that -- that Mars nominees held
28 shares in Twin Lakes (Jersey ) (Exhibit 1)?
29 A. But that was for the purpose of some security.
59
1 418 Q. I appreciate that. Mars nominees was?
2 A. It was the Guinness & Mahon nominee company.
3 419 Q. Effectively, does that mean that Mars nominees were
4 actually holding shares on your behalf as the
5 beneficial owner?
6 A. No, I don't think so. They might have held them as
7 security for advances.
8 420 Q. I appreciate that, but who were Mars nominees acting
9 as a nominee on behalf of if it wasn't for yourself?
10 A. In a sense it was either for myself or the
11 shareholders in Twin Lakes, whichever you like which
12 was the same thing. I was the shareholder in
13 Twin Lakes.
14 421 Q. That is the point I am just trying to clarify?
15 A. Yes .
16 422 Q. You were the sole shareholder in Twin Lakes?
17 A. Yes .
18 423 Q. And you asked Mars nominees to hold these shares on
19 your behalf?
20 A. I don't know that I did. I thought that I myself
21 stayed with Twin Lakes personally. I thought that
22 but I may be wrong. Do not forget, this is a long
23 time ago and I am not certain. You see this 1982
24 finance document, what that is about I have
25 absolutely no idea because the last thing that a
26 little company like Twin Lakes would be dealing in
27 is gilts.. We were speculating in property. We
28 were buying and selling property. The last thing we
29 would want in the world is gilts.
60
1 424 Q. Taking the document at its face value it seems
2 effectively that Guinness & Mahon were obtaining
3 some comfort because they were the holders of some
4 shares?
5 A. Yes.
6 425 Q. First of all in the finance stock and then in
7 Twin Lakes?
8 A. Yes. Or Twin Lakes held the finance stock and
9 therefore they took Twin Lakes shares into Mars
10 nominees.
11 426 Q. I see. I didn't appreciate that from the document?
12 A. That is possible I think.
13 427 Q. But effectively if Guinness & Mahon were trying to
14 derive some comfort from holding these shares, that
15 presumably was because they were advancing money to
16 someone?
17 A. They were, yes.
18 428 Q. Presumably that was to yourself or to the company?
19 A. It was to some other company. There were so many
20 companies floating around. There were about 10
21 companies in which I was involved floating around.
22 I had a bit of this and a bit of that. The whole
23 thing was just so complicated.
24 429 Q. Could you recall for us the names of those
25 companies, please?
26 A. No, I cannot, they are all long since liquidated at
27 this stage. They were all shelf companies as I
28 pointed out to you. What used to happen to me --
29 and this ties in with the explanation I wanted to
61
1 make about A. What happened was, I would be
2 instructed to buy a property. The instructions
3 usually came either from Guinness & Mahon or from a
4 firm of accountants. I would simply be told we have
5 agreed to buy such and such property for so much.
6 The deposit is so much. Cheque is here. Please
7 sign the contract in trust.
8 430 Q. Without wanting to change your train of thought,
9 what we are trying to deal with today is actually
10 your involvement with Guinness & Mahon and the
11 things we have been talking about?
12 A. Yes .
13 431 Q. Guinness & Mahon were holding these shares as a
14 security for some lending. That is what it appears
15 to be. Would you agree with that?
16 A. That is probably so, yes.
17 432 Q. All right. Mr. Hickey, could I ask you to please
18 turn to your statement at (j) (Exhibit 1)?
19 A. Yes .
20 433 Q. You say here:
21 "This was about the time I was

developing Dolphin House."
22
23 A. That is right. When I say "I" I mean Crane Holdings
24 was the company that owned it. It was my sole
25 development, nobody else had any interest in it.
26 434 Q. Crane Holdings acquired the Dolphin Hotel?
27 A. Yes .
28 435 Q. Did Crane Holdings pass that hotel on to another
29 company?
62
1 A. It did to a company called Nemean Holdings, which is
2 also long since gone.
3 436 Q. Where was that company incorporated?
4 A. In Ireland.
5 437 Q. Okay. When I said to you it passed presumably the
6 property on to Nemean Holdings, is that actually
7 what happened?
8 A. I brought the land in about the mid 1970's and had
9 to leave it there.
10 438 Q. Yes?
11 A. And as I told you, simply take income from the bar.
12 439 Q. Yes?
13 A. And then I was going to develop it starting in 1980.
14 And we decided then to put it into a new company.
15 440 Q. Why did you feel a need to do that?
16 A. I think there was some tax reason for it. We wanted
17 to have it as a new start.
18 MR. BOHAN: Also for tax reasons if he
19 was trading
20 ...(INTERJECTION)
21 MS. MACKEY: I am sorry, but we need to
22 take Mr. Hickey's evidence
23 so as not to cut across him.
24 A. We were trading. We had been trading and we didn't
25 want the trading company to be involved so we
26 transferred it into Nemean.
27 441 Q. MR. ROWAN: Which was effectively a
28 property company?
29 A. Which was a property company; it was a new property
63
1 company only formed then.
2 442 Q. Yes. The shares in Nemean Holdings Ltd were held by
3 Crane Holdings?
4 A. No, Crane Holdings disappeared; Crane Holdings
5 simply sold the property to Nemean.
6 443 Q. I see, yes. Who were the holders of the shares in
7 Nemean?
8 A. Nifold.
9 444 Q. Nifold?
10 A. Sorry, the shares in Crane Holdings. You see, we
11 didn't change it over. What happened was, maybe
12 that is why they gave me back that certificate. You
13 see, it was intended that the company that developed
14 the Dolphin, if it made a profit it would put that
15 overseas.
16 445 Q. I understand?
17 A. Actually that should be Nemean Holdings. We had
18 Nemean as well as Crane.
19 446 Q. Which document are you looking at?
20 A. I am looking at that document on page 41 (Exhibit
21 1). All they were doing is sending me back a
22 useless old certificate. They were cleaning up
23 because Crane was gone and it was Nemean that should
24 have been holding it, as I think it was holdings the
25 shares in Nifold.
26 447 Q. Okay?
27 A. They were simply giving me back a dead document.
28 448 Q. Nifold held the shares in Nemean Holdings Ltd?
29 A. That's right.
1 449 Q. Which was then the company which developed the
2 property?
3 A. That is right.
4 450 Q. All right. So that is what you mean about "I"?
5 A. I am sorry, I keep confusing it. I was the sole
6 person in that.
7 451 Q. Yes, I understand. In fact you say that the
8 borrowings from Guinness & Mahon ...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. For this development?
10 452 Q. Yes?
11 A. No. First of all, I put my own money into it and of
12 course that was for the second property. I had
13 previously bought the property back in the mid
14 1970's for £150,000. That was my own money and I
15 put that into it as well at the start of
16 development.
17 453 Q. Yes. I should have gone on to say, borrowings for
18 development were transferred from AIB?
19 A. Yes, first of all we borrowed for this purpose.
20 454 Q. Yes?
21 A. I did a great amount of other things with AIB, but
22 initially AIB agreed to finance the development.
23 455 Q. Yes?
24 A. They got cold feet at a certain stage. They thought
25 the thing was going wrong. Which proved to be right
26 in the end but I don't know whether they decided at
27 that particular stage. But any way, then I went to
28 ICC.
29 456 Q. Yes?
1 A. ICC agreed to take it over and AIB effectively were
2 taken out.
3 457 Q. Yes?
4 A. There were also these German shares which had been
5 bought, which have been listed there in one of the
6 documents. ICC insisted on getting the security of
7 those documents as additional security.
8 458 Q. All right.
9 A. Those shares are listed in "J" of my statement
10 (Exhibit 1).
11 459 Q. ICC said we will lend you the money?
12 A. Yes .
13 460 Q. They took over the borrowings from AIB?
15 461 Q. And they said 'but please we had need to take a
16 security on them?
17 A. Additional security, yes.
18 462 Q. That would have been a fixed charge?
19 A. No, what happened was it was only then that
20 Guinness & Mahon bought those shares. Actually they
21 did the purchase of them.
22 463 Q. I am talking about the property security. Would
23 that have been a fixed charge on the property?
24 A. Yes, the property security was a fixed charge.
25 But the way in which the shares were got,
26 Guinness & Mahon bought them and apparently they put
27 them into College Trustees which I never realised
28 until very very recently.
29 464 Q. Yes?
1 A. That is why apparently I had to give this letter --
2 which I have no recollection of whatever --
3 authorising ICC to get a charge on them. That is
4 referred to in some of the correspondence there .
5 465 Q. Yes. I will come back to the shares in just a
6 moment. I just want to clarify a point because it
7 is relevant to something which may come up a little
8 later. ICC took a fixed charge?
9 A. Yes .
10 466 Q. Over the property?
11 A. Yes .
12 467 Q. And that was their security?
13 A. Their main security.
14 468 Q. Secondly, they had a subsidiary security on some
15 German shares?
17 469 Q. These shares were owned by Nemean Holdings or were
18 these owned by another company?
19 A. They were owned really by Twin Lakes.
20 470 Q. The shares were owned by Twin Lakes?
21 A. And I thought they would have been in Twin Lakes'
22 name but I discovered then that Mr. Traynor had put
23 them into the name of this College Trustees, which I
24 had never even heard of.
25 471 Q. Unfortunately the Dolphin House project didn't work?
26 A. It didn't work, no.
27 472 Q. When you eventually sold the property, when was that
28 as a matter of interest?
29 A. I started to develop it in 1980 and it was finished

1 in 1982 or thereabouts and it was then leased to the
2 Board of Works to the State for courts. We then
3 agreed to sell it.
4 473 Q. With the benefit of the covenant on the lease?
5 A. Subject to the lease, yes.
6 474 Q. Yes?
7 A. We then agreed to sell it to INPUT, the pension
8 trust for about £2,000,000.
9 475 Q. Yes .
10 A. It was then discovered that the architect had made a
11 mess of the planning permission for the basement
12 carpark. When they discovered this they refused to
13 complete and we were left. That is why we took the
14 loss mainly because it cost too much to build.
15 Cramptons bill was far too high. Those are two
16 reasons why the money was lost.
17 476 Q. They reneged on the deal, is that right?
18 A. They reneged on the deal.
19 477 Q. You sold it then to somebody else?
20 A. Yes, that is right. We sold it to Silver Mines.
22 A. That must have been about 1984/1985, a couple of
23 years later at a loss of course.
24 479 Q. So when Nemean Holdings sold the building to
25 Silver Mines it incurred a loss?
26 A. Yes .
27 480 Q. That loss would have been represented I suppose by
28 an element of borrowings which was then not repaid?
29 A. Of course, a loss to ICC.

1 481 Q. Yes. I suppose effectively ICC did not get all its
2 lending back?
4 482 Q. ICC had a fixed charge on this property?
5 A. Yes.
6 483 Q. Why didn't they call in their security at some that
7 stage?
8 A. Well they did but the question was how to get it
9 sold to realise it.
10 484 Q. Who actually managed the sale?
11 A. Me.
12 485 Q. Was it the directors of Nemean Holdings, which is
13 you?
14 A. Yes. I managed the sale.
15 486 Q. Were there any other directors in Nemean Holdings ?
16 A. No. There were but they had no shares in the thing.
17 487 Q. They were nominees?
18 A. They were nominees, yes.
19 488 Q. Was Desmond Traynor one?
20 A. No. They were people in the office.
21 489 Q. Effectively you managed the sale. But was the sale
22 under pressure from ICC?
23 A. Yes, very definitely.
24 490 Q. At some stage you were a director of ICC?
25 A. I was, that is right. It was embarrassing.
27 A. I was a director of ICC I think about 1979 or maybe
28 it was 1978 to 1984. I was a director at the time
29 and the matter was extremely embarrassing.
69
1 492 Q. I can imagine?
2 A. Yes.
3 493 Q. So that when Nemean Holdings incurred the loss, then
4 ICC called in its other security?
5 A. Yes.
6 494 Q. Namely the German shares?
7 A. Yes, which had appreciated considerably.
8 495 Q. Did they ask for the share certificates or did they
9 ask you to realise the shares?
10 A. No, they had taken a lien.
11 496 Q. A lien?
12 A. Yes.
13 497 Q. On the basis of the letter that I am supposed to
14 have signed to College Trustees. They had got a
15 lien so that they were entitled to sell the share
16 under the lien?
17 498 Q. They sold the shares?
18 A. They sold the shares as far as I recollect, yes.
19 499 Q. I see, right. They were selling shares which had
20 been bought by Twin Lakes?
21 A. Which I thought had been bought by
22 Twin Lakes.
23 500 Q. But they had been bought by a company outside
24 Ireland?
25 A. Yes, which I had never heard of you. This is the
26 sort of thing Mr. Traynor did.
27 501 Q. Yes. You say that when ICC sold the shares they
28 made a substantial profit?
29 A. They reduced their loss because the shares were
70
1 worth a good deal more when they sold them.
2 502 Q. So that effectively there was a gain on the value of
3 those shares?
4 A. Yes but a loss overall to ICC.
5 503 Q. I appreciate that.
6 A. Yes .
7 504 Q. How was the accountancy sorted out as between
8 Twin Lakes and Nemean Holdings. How was the account
9 sorted out?
10 A. I do not think there was any sorting out because
11 Nemean Holdings simply lost money and Twin Lakes
12 therefore gained nothing. Just nothing happened.
13 505 Q. Did you consider whether there were any exchange
14 control issues surrounding the pledging of the
15 shares ?
16 A. No, I didn't know about this until much later.
17 I just didn't know about that until much later.
18 When did exchange control cease?
19 506 Q. In 1992?
20 A. I didn't appreciate at all that there was any
21 consideration about that, I was thinking only of
22 security.
23 507 Q. Did that become an issue at some stage?
24 A. No, there was never any issue raised.
25 508 Q. So exchange control was not something that was
26 considered?
27 A. Certainly not by me and I don't think by anybody
28 else involved.
29 509 Q. I see. Can I just go back briefly to the winding up

1 of Clonmel Estates which you said you carried out?
2 A. It was very inefficient unfortunately.
3 510 Q. Which you say you carried out as liquidator?
4 A. Yes.
5 511 Q. Effectively you had a pot of cash to distribute ?
6 A. Yes.
7 512 Q. That pot of cash actually represented a growth in
8 the value of the shares?
9 A. It was the profit on the sale of the property.
10 513 Q. Absolutely?
11 A. Yes, that is right, the shares had obviously
12 increased in value.
13 514 Q. So that in fact the shareholders therefore would
14 have been in position for gain in the value of the
15 shares?
16 A. Yes. And then passed a resolution to wind up.
17 515 Q. But the liquidator would have distributed that and
18 that would have represented in the hands of the
19 shareholders a gain?
20 A. Yes.
21 516 Q. To each of the three shareholders?
22 A. No. I was the only shareholder affected by Irish
23 tax.
24 517 Q. Each of the shareholders...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. I was the only shareholder, the others were only
26 office nominees or somebody.
27 518 Q. They were nominee shareholders acting on behalf of
28 the husband and wife who you acted for overseas ?
29 A. I don't think they would have accepted that.
72
1 I think there was only one other shareholder.
2 It was one of the girls in the office.
3 519 Q. It is important, Mr. Hickey, that we try and get
4 this clear?
5 A. Yes .
6 520 Q. When the capital was put up for Clonmel Holdings
7 someone would have issued some shares certificates?
8 A. Yes .
9 521 Q. How many share certificates?
10 A. You are talking 25, 26 or 27 years ago. I just
11 don't know at this stage. There was more than one
12 issued to me.
13 522 Q. Yes, there would have been a share certificate to
14 you...(INTERJECTION)?
15 A. Probably for 99% of the shares in the company.
16 And there was one issued to somebody else for say
17 one share. That is what would have happened.
18 I would got 99% and somebody else as a pure nominee
19 would have 1%.
20 523 Q. That share would have been held in trust by that
21 nominee, who would have held that share in trust for
22 your overseas clients?
23 A. If you like to put it that way. But there so little
24 in it that it wasn't relevant.
25 524 Q. You were acting as their solicitor and their agent ?
26 A. Yes .
27 525 Q. I would like to be as accurate as I can?
28 A. I am sorry, I am not trying to be obstructive.
29 I never thought of it that way. I was simply their
73
1 agent and there had to be two shareholders in the
2 company then. And that was the only reason for it.
3 526 Q. So that the member of your office staff was holding
4 shares in trust?
5 A. They would have been, yes, if you want to put it
6 that way. One share, yes.
7 527 Q. For the actual beneficiaries who were husband and
8 wife overseas?
9 A. Yes. That in a way doesn't right. I was holding
10 for them all. There had to be two shareholders in
11 the company.
12 528 Q. So that when the distribution was made, which you
13 have agreed was actually in reality an enhancement
14 in the value of the shares?
16 529 Q. Then there would have been a liability, a capital
17 gain of some sort. And you said afterwards that
18 there was a tax consequence which you discovered
19 later?
20 A. Yes, for me.
21 530 Q. Which you didn't appreciate?
22 A. Yes, for me.
23 531 Q. Can you tell what that is was please?
24 A. That was because I got a distribution on the
25 liquidation of the company amounting to £70,000
26 which was my profit. I didn't realise what a
27 distribution really was. We didn't employ an
28 accountant unfortunately on the liquidation and I
29 didn't realise that that amounted to a distribution

1 which was taxable. That is what Brian reported to
2 the Revenue in the last 18 months and tax was paid
3 on that.
4 532 Q. Who were the accountants...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. The other shareholders were overseas.
6 533 Q. Sorry. What were the accountants and auditors of
7 Clonmel?
8 A. It must have been SKC.
9 534 Q. They would have prepared a final set of accounts up
10 to the date of liquidation?
11 A. They didn't I am afraid. That is what happened.
12 The thing was done very informally and I never filed
13 any liquidators report in the companies office and
14 they came after me years later and said that the
15 last thing they have on this file is a resolution
16 appointing you liquidator. You furnished no
17 accounts. What happened.
18 535 Q. I see?
19 A. So then I explained to them what happened.
20 I told them the money had been all distributed.
21 And eventually they said okay we will strike off the
22 company. They just struck it off and that was that.
23 536 Q. And we know from what you said to us earlier that
24 the distribution of monies were given
25 to...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. Simply to Guinness & Mahon.
27 537 Q. To Guinness & Mahon?
28 A. Yes .
29 538 Q. And that it now appears to you that they went into
1 Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd?
2 A. The whole lot did.
3 539 Q. And that was around 1978?
4 A. Yes .
5 540 Q. Yes. Were there any exchange control considerations
6 given to that transaction?
7 A. I think exchange control didn't apply to foreign
8 people. They could transfer their money, as far as
9 their position was concerned, without bothering
10 about Irish exchange controls.
11 541 Q. It was of course a transfer of funds out of Ireland?
12 A. It was, yes.
13 542 Q. Did you obtain exchange control for your element of
14 it?
15 A. No, I never did. I only realised it went out of
16 Ireland when I saw this.
17 543 Q. I see?
18 A. I certainly didn't have anything to do with exchange
19 control. I didn't think it arose.
20 544 Q. I suppose it has to be you because you were acting
21 for the overseas people?
22 A. Yes .
23 545 Q. You felt that exchange control didn't not apply to
24 them because they were overseas and it didn't apply
25 to you because as far as you were concerned the
26 money...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. I didn't think it was going overseas.
28 546 Q. Right. You explained that from time to time you in
29 your capacity as advisor and solicitor to
76
1 Guinness & Mahon sat in on meetings with Mr. Traynor
2 and Mr. Dunne of SKC?
3 A. Yes. There were so many things going on. Mr. Reed
4 was advising all kinds of people about their tax
5 affairs.
6 547 Q. Yes?
7 A. Occasionally I would be involved, but I don't know
8 for who.
9 548 Q. The point I was getting at was, effectively
10 therefore you would have listened to explanations
11 about how discretionary trusts were created?
12 A. Yes.
13 54 9 Q. And the best mechanisms that were surrounding such
14 devices?
15 A. Yes, I knew of these things.
16 550 Q. And you would have been familiar with trusts which
17 would in turn have invested in companies?
18 A. Yes. I knew something about all of this as a
19 solicitor any way. I had some knowledge.
20 551 Q. Of course?
21 A. But not a detailed or expert knowledge.
22 552 Q. All right. Did we establish who owned
23 Nifold Investments?
24 A. Yes.
25 553 Q. Who owned Nifold?
26 A. I owned Nifold.
27 554 Q. You were the shareholder?
28 A. Yes.
29 555 Q. In that company?
77
1 A. Yes.
2 556 Q. Which was a company which Mr. Traynor provided?
3 A. I think so, yes. I am not quite certain but I think
4 he did.
5 557 Q. When he incorporated Nifold he issued the shares to
6 you so that you held those shares?
7 A. Yes because the intention was that if Nifold made a
8 profit. Nifold owned the shares in Nemean, in the
9 Dolphin.
10 558 Q. Yes?
11 A. And the intention was that if the Dolphin made a
12 profit the money would be put through Nifold.
13 559 Q. Yes. Does Nifold still operate?
14 A. Not at all. None of these things still operate,
15 they are all long since gone.
16 560 Q. When did Nifold cease to trade?
17 A. I haven't an idea honestly. I really haven't
18 an idea.
19 561 Q. Presumably could get hold of that information for us
20 through your advisors?
21 A. I don't think quite honestly.
22 562 Q. Presumably we could do a search in the Jersey
23 registry?
24 A. I am sure you could but you would only find that it
25 was struck off at sometime without ever having done
26 anything. It never did anything.
27 563 Q. I see.
28 A. So I think there is no point really.
29 564 Q. Okay. I am nearly through you will be pleased to
78
1 know. Did you or did you have any reason to avail
2 of the tax amnesty in 1992?
3 A. No.
4 565 Q. You didn't avail of the tax amnesty?
5 A. No, I did not. I didn't have any reason to .
6 566 Q. I see. This is my final question to you. If I
7 could ask you to turn to your main statement please?
8 A. Yes .
9 567 Q. At point number five you say:
10 "I knew Mr. Traynor whom I found to be

very astute. He had many ways of
11 concealment other than numbered or
lettered accounts."
12
13 Would you like to enlarge a little on that?
14 A. That is exactly what I am saying applies to Exhibit
15 "A." You can see that there four transactions listed
16 at A. What happened as far as I can recollect is
17 that he simply or possibly some firm of accountants
18 instructed me to buy property. I never knew who the
19 purchaser was. He may have been involved in it
20 himself. It was simply a shelf company furnished by
21 accountants with nominee directors. I would then
22 buy the property. They provided the money and they
23 were very punctual in providing money. Then in due
24 course I would sell the property and I would send the
25 proceeds of course back to Guinness & Mahon. The
26 fact that my name is there and is on these things
27 doesn't mean that I had anything whatever to do with
28 the thing personally. As I said to you he had a
29 photographic memory. He knew every transaction that
79
1 was going on. And the only reason that he put
2 anybody else's name was in case he forgot something.
3 He knew I would have a file on it. He did that with
4 a number of accountants as far as I know. He put
5 their name there; that was all. And then some
6 figures and he could get on to them if he had to.
7 As I say, those figures there don't imply that these
8 things had anything to do with me personally.
9 568 Q. From what you say, if Mr. Traynor had sent you over
10 a document and said 'would you please sign that'
11 acting as a nominee or something of that sort, you
12 would have done that without really being interested
13 in the implications for you of doing that?
14 A. I might have but I doubt it ever happened except
15 possibly this College Trustees thing. That is the
16 only letter that I appear to have signed which I
17 have no recollection whatever of.
18 569 Q. Am I not right in believing that solicitors when
19 they act on behalf of a client usually want to be
20 fairly clear as to the basis upon which they are
21 acting if they are signing contracts for that sort
22 of thing?
23 A. Yes.
24 570 Q. For instance, if they are signing contracts for
25 purchase, they want to be pretty sure that the
26 client will produce the money when it comes to that?
27 A. Yes, but you see I was instructed by
28 Guinness & Mahon. And they always produced the
29 money on the dot. They were the best payers ever.
80
1 Then the moment you completed the transaction and
2 registered your deeds and had them all ready and
3 sent back the deeds to Guinness & Mahon with your
4 account, your account was paid immediately.
5 They were absolutely reliable financially and that
6 is why one acted simply on their instructions. Who
7 the purchasers were, I most of the time didn't know
8 at all.
9 571 Q. Yes. So that you would have placed a great deal of
10 confidence in Guinness & Mahon?
11 A. Completely.
12 572 Q. And perhaps in Mr. Traynor?
13 A. Yes, completely. That is what everybody did then.
14 People gave him millions, as you know. Everybody
15 had complete confidence in him. He was regarded as
16 a totally honest man and also as a totally able man.
17 573 Q. Yes, absolutely.
18 A. That is the way it was.
19 574 Q. Yes .
20 A. As I say, I was only a pawn in these things. As for
21 recollection, as I said we had a big litigation
22 practice in those days and all this stuff was only a
23 very small proportion of the work.
24 575 Q. I understand.
25 A. It was a very small proportion of the legal work I
26 had to do.
27 576 Q. Ms. Mackey wants to make one point to you arising
28 from something I asked.
29 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. HICKEY BY MR. ROWAN

1 MR. HICKEY WAS EXAMINED BY MS. MACKEY
2 577 Q. MS. MACKEY: It is going back again to
3 Clonmel Estates Ltd and
4 these two foreign people?
5 A. Yes.
6 578 Q. I had misunderstood your earlier evidence and I
7 thought that nominees in your office held two-thirds
8 of the shares on behalf of those?
9 A. Yes.
10 579 Q. Now I understand your evidence to be that you held
11 all the shares except one?
13 580 Q. The reality is that you were holding shares for them
14 as well as your own, is that right?
16 581 Q. What was the basis of that; was it a gentleman's
17 agreement?
18 A. Yes.
19 582 Q. You agreed with these people that...(INTERJECTION)
20 A. Yes.
21 583 Q. Effectively you were a trustee of their shares?
22 A. I suppose I was, yes. But the one thing that they
23 did not want was their name to appear anywhere.
24 584 Q. Yes. So in fact in all documentation relating to
25 the thing you were the majority shareholder?
27 585 Q. And on paper all the proceeds belonged to you?
28 A. I suppose that is correct. I was the majority
29 shareholder but I had, if you like, a private trust.
82
1 I wouldn't have claimed...(INTERJECTION).
2 586 Q. What I am saying is, anyone looking at this would
3 say that the entire distribution was made to you?
4 A. That is not correct.
5 587 Q. What would be correct then?
6 A. That I got my share; I got my third share.
7 588 Q. What documents show that the entire thing was not
8 yours?
9 A. The only thing I can say to you is that these
10 tot-ups were something to do with it all.
11 I am not too certain which. But my share is the
12 bottom there.
13 589 Q. No, I understand that the reality of the thing was
14 that in fact you had a third share of the proceeds
15 and that these two people had the other two shares?
16 A. Yes.
17 590 Q. I understand that was the reality of it?
18 A. Yes.
19 591 Q. But as you say, they didn't want their name to
20 appear anywhere?
22 592 Q. They were not shareholders?
23 A. They were not Irish nationals.
24 593 Q. I understand that too, but they were not
25 shareholders more importantly at all?
26 A. No.
27 594 Q. You were in fact the majority shareholder?
28 A. Formally, yes.
29 595 Q. Insofar as anybody looking at documentation relating
83
1 to the liquidation of Clonmel was concerned, there
2 was only one distribution?
3 A. The distribution was wrong by me.
4 596 Q. There was only one distribution. That is how it
5 would appear now. In fact you had an agreement with
6 two other people that out of that distribution they
7 would get two-thirds?
8 A. The distribution that I made was simply send off the
9 money to Guinness & Mahon. Then they split it up.
10 597 Q. Yes but that distribution was for the shareholders?
11 A. Yes .
12 598 Q. As far as you as liquidator was concerned, you were
13 distributing to the shareholders?
14 A. No, I never believed that myself.
15 599 Q. I know you didn't believe that. But that was the
16 reality of the legal transaction that was happening?
17 A. I don't know, I mean the whole thing was sent to
19 600 Q. Yes?
20 A. They knew what way to split it up.
21 601 Q. But in fact anybody looking at this company saw that
22 the distributions list would go to the shareholders
23 and the shareholders were Mr. Gerald Hickey and a
24 nominee who held one share?
25 A. If you want to put it that way.
26 602 Q. That is what was on paper?
27 A. That may be correct. There must be such a thing as
28 a verbal trust.
29 603 Q. There was a verbal trust between you and these two
84
1 people?
2 A. Yes.
3 604 Q. That in fact you would only...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. Yes.
5 605 Q. There was a gentleman's agreement at the base of
6 this thing?
7 A. That is right.
8 606 Q. And a paper transaction that didn't reflect that?
9 A. It did not reflect that, that is correct.
10 607 Q. That is grand, thank you very much.
11 The other thing is, I wonder would you write to
12 College Trustees Ltd?
13 A. Yes.
14 608 Q. And ask them for any information they have in their
15 possession, if they have any, in relation to Nifold
16 and Twin Lakes?
17 A. They have already been written to.
18 609 Q. About that?
19 A. Not specifically about that but about a number of
20 things.
21 610 Q. Right?
22 A. And they won't reply to anything. They just simply
23 won't reply.
24 611 Q. Would you write and ask them specifically for any
25 files they have in relation to those two companies?
26 A. Okay.
27 612 Q. Including their accounts or balance sheets or
28 anything they have now. If they reply and say
29 nothing?
85
1 A. We know they have refused to reply to questions
2 about other things.
3 613 Q. Yes. If on this occasion you would do that?
4 A. Yes .
5 614 Q. And if you would also write to Ansbacher Cayman?
6 A. They won't reply either.
7 615 Q. Let us at least be seen to do what we should do.
8 Please write to them and ask them for any
9 information in relation to an account held
10 in...(INTERJECTION)
11 616 Q. MR. ROWAN: I know you don't know
12 anything about the
13 Gerald Hickey trust, but perhaps you would ask them
14 whether in fact they can confirm that there was such
15 a vehicle?
16 A. I don't think they can even if.
17 617 Q. MS. MACKEY: If you wouldn't mind
18 adding that to the request
19 to College?
20 A. Okay.
21 618 Q. In relation to the deposits that were in Cayman, if
22 you would ask Ansbacher Cayman to give you any
23 information they have in relation to an account held
24 in their name referenced to G. Hickey in
25 Henry Ansbacher & Company, London?
26 A. The only thing I should say to you is that I
27 appeared before the Moriarty Tribunal.
28 619 Q. Yes?
29 A. And passed out.

1 620 Q. Yes, I know?
2 A. They asked me to provide them with a letter
3 authorising Ansbacher Cayman to provide them with
4 any information as regards to me, which I did.
5 A. Yes.
6 A. Which I understand they sent to Ansbacher and
7 Ansbacher simply did not reply.
8 621 Q. Yes, I understand that. But this is a different
9 inquiry?
10 A. Okay, if you want me to do it.
11 622 Q. The account number in Henry Ansbacher & Company I
12 can give you. It is 190017-101 and any other
13 information that Ansbacher have in relation to an
14 account referenced to Gerald Hickey or
15 Clonmel Estates?
16 A. They wouldn't have anything on that. They never
17 heard of it or saw it.
18
19 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much and we
20 are sorry to have kept you
21 for so long.
22 A. Thank you very much for coming to me. I appreciate
23 that very much.
24 MR. ROWAN: What will happen is that
25 we will get this
26 transcribed and we will then make contact with you
27 about arrangements to have it signed by you when you
28 have checked through the contents of it.
29 A. There is so much of it, it could be a mile long.
87
1 MR. ROWAN: Yes. Thank you once
2 again.
3 A. I gather that you then send some statement of what
4 your report will be to the person involved?
5 MS. MACKEY: That will be phase two of
6 our investigation. That
7 is set out in your letter. That is down the road.
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. MACKEY: Obviously we will
10 communicate with you again
11 but that is going to be some time in the future,
12 Mr. Hickey.
13 A. Yes.
14
15 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
88
t) .3.0 too
Appendix XV (55) (1) (b)
I, Gerald Hickey of 66 Morion Village, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4, retired solicitor, make this
statement for the benefit of the Inspector's appointed by order of the High Court to Ansbacker
(Cayman) Limited.
1. I acted as a solicitor during the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's on behalf of a number of
people who had business with Guinness and Mahon and I was also a personal borrower
with Guinness and Mahon for a number of speculative projects.
2. I have long since retired. I am in poor health and I have no files or records save in
respect of one matter which happened about 22 years ago. I learned much later, about 2
years ago, that I was liable to capital gains tax on the distribution of funds on the
liquidation of a company. This matter has since been reported voluntarily to the
Revenue Commissioners and tax has been computed and paid.
3. My share of the above distribution was placed on deposit with Guinness and Mahon and
I always understood that it was so. I withdrew the money about 18-24 months later. I
have no knowledge how Guinness and Mahon dealt with my deposit internally. If it was
placed with any offshore entity, it was without my consent or authority. My interest
statement received was on Guinness and Mahon paper. Such statement (one p,er year)
were immediately sent by me to my accountants Stokes Kennedy & Crowley (now
KPMG). I did not retain copies.
4. My name appears on documents relating to College Trustees Limited, tf I signed any

letter to that company, I do not understand why and haVe no recollection. I say that I
have no knowledge or information whatsoever relating to that company.
5. I knew Mr. Traynor whom I found to be very astute. He had many ways of concealment
other than numbered or lettered accounts. He could remember the.most intricate dealings
and would, at any time, be au fait with any matter on which I dealt with him and would
put the name of the solicitor/accountant who acted in any particular matter down in case
he had to check the details.
5. I acted as solicitor on many transactions forwarded* to me by Guinness and Mahon.

Invariably, the purchaser would be an Irish registered shelf company. I would have had
no knowledge of the beneficial owners but would be acting on the instructions of
Guinness and Mahon. I would be instructed to sign any contract in trust for the
purchaser and would complete the purchase in the ordinary way for the purchaser.
I would be instructed to act on the sale andtosign the contract in trust for the vendor and
complete the sale in the normal way.
Guinness and Mahon always provided the money.
7. I have seen the term "suitably secured" on some of the documents recently received from
Guinness and Mahon and would have assumed that it meant many other situations other
than a "backing situation", e.g. property security, or personal security.
I beg to refer to some documentation recently receivedfrom Guinness and Mahon:
(a) Document A:
I have no knowledge or information relating to this matter. "J.D.T." obviously
refers to Mr. Traynor.
(b) Document B:
I can only speculate what this matter refers to. I can only assume that this
includes the full distribution of the transaction referred to at No. 2. After
deduction of expenses etc. only a l/3 r i interest approximately was owned by me.
If it is other than this, I have no knowledge.
(c) Document C:
I think this refers to a profit from the sale of premises in Grafton Street. It is
prior to the imposition of capital gains tax.
I do not know what the reference to the "Gerald Hickey Trust" is and I have no
knowledge or information to such a trust but it may have some relation to my
interest referred to at (b) above.
(d) Document D:
Twin Lake Investments Ltd. This was my own company registered in Jersey and
had nothing to do with Guinness and Mahon.
(e) Document E:
I have no knowledge or information relating to the stock referred to or to Mars
Nominees Limited or to Account399 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited.
(f) Document F:
This may have referred to a sale of property to Irish Life. I have no memory of it
(g) Document G:
The matters here refer to me and I presume tax was paid in the normal way as the
statements of interest earned would hav»been sent to SKC at the time.
(h) Document H:
I have no knowledge or information relating to this.
(i) Document I:
I have no recollection of signing such a letter to College Trustees Limited. See
my reference to College Trustees Limited at No. 4. Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited
was the company in which I was involved.
(j) Document J:
This was about the time I was developing Dolphin House. Borrowings in relation
to that development were transferred from AIB to ICC Pic. ICC wanted a lien on
the property and on some German shares (referred to in the document). These
shares were purchased offshore through Guinness and Mahon as part of the
overall deal. Dolphin House lost money for ICC but the sale of the shares made a
substantial profit for them, reducing their loss on the property.
C\ Document K:
I have no knowledge or information relating to this. I did not have an Ansbacker
account as far as I was aware, neither did Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited.
I have made this statement from memory and I believe same to be true. However, the matters
referred to happened many years ago and may suffer from the normal defects of memory.
. ' • • ••«*•
Jt
4|«li|
Reported Details
J.D.T.
918. J.D.T. We shall shortly receive £290,000

I Gerry for deposit in Cayman. Agreed that
SX.-^. 7 Hickey. we will make available an overdraft
facility of £90,000 on a back to back
WL arrangement. Friction will be 1$%.
UV.-I.UU ilXCKCy, 9* 261,306 233,382 31.3.75 Suitably secured - exccss due
o o o u i o CJOO ^«
Gerald Hickey gj. j 53,524.84| 120,000 j 30.6.72 Suitably secured.
Gerald Hickuy si 102,372.43 100,000 16.U.72 Suitably secured.
\
GUINNESS & HAHON LIMITED
APPENDIX 70
B
Loan. 8a1ance Outstanding
at 30 April 1978 Oeposf t' Offshore
Borrower
Cayman Guernsey
£
604,878 -
604,878
59S,000 -
•595,000
450,000 450,000
X J,179,486 400,000
350,488 350,488 V
X 416,467 230,000
Gerald Hickey 211,018 211,018
199,556 199,556
- X 264,867 147,967
125,000 125,000
124,449 124,449
113,648 113,648
108,447 108,447
61,488. 61,488
V 118,904 43,000
•<. 69,035 : 25,000
9,269 9,259
5,002,000 2,481,614 -f- • 1,317,594
i y i j w i
• The bank holds additional security in respect of many of the above loans.
D o c u m e n t No. 15
NOTE : References herein are taken from the
Bank Statements of Guinness & Mahon
Jersey Trust Limited
File Name: - Gerard Hickey
20.12.73 Twin Lakes-debit

9.1.74 Cheque-Gerald Hickey Trust
26.8.74 Twin Lakes - debit (amount not known)
Bank Statements of Guinness & Mahon
Limited - Jersey Trust/Trustees Account
File Name : - Gerard Hickey
16.11.73 Gerry Hickey Trust re. Grafton Property - debit

14.1.74 Filing Fee for 1974 - Twin Lakes (Jersey) Ltd.
15.1.74 Twin Lakes Investments Ltd. - debit
NOTE ! References herein are taken from the
Guinness & Mahon (Dublin) Limited
of Securities held for Guinness Mahon
Jersey Trust
1982 150,000 Eire 10.5% Finance Stock 1982
N/O Mars Nominees Limited Account 399 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited
No. 1. £2/949
No. 2. £201,366
Extension for period of one year to 31/12/78
9i% Fixed
Already taken up In the form of Loan Accounts
"Suitably Secured".
Ansbacher Correspondence files
File Name: - Gerard Hickey - Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited
15.1.90 Geriy Hickey £5,000.00

19.1.90 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited Stg.£2,000.00
2.4.90 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited Stg.£2,50O.OO
29.6.90 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited
12.11.90 Twin Lakes (Jersey) Limited
G - Jersey Trust Special Account
4.7.75 Refund G. Hickey

NOTE: File : Twin Lakes Jersey Limited
9.4.84 Letterfrom Gerard Hickey to College Trustees in which

he confirmed that College Trustees Limited should give
an undertaking in a specified form to the Industrial Credit
Company Limited regarding securities totalling approximately
DM.600,000.
r\
NOTE : References herein are takes from the
Twinlakes correspondence file
File Name : Gerard Hickey

J
.4.80 Account opened - lodged IR£7,875
15.4.80 Counterfoil for Government Holdings of £150,000, on
which interest of £7,875 was payable
22.4.81 Account opened - lodged IR£7,875
9.4.84 Letterfrom Gerard Hickey to College Trustees re.
Twinlakes Jersey Ltd. He confirmed his wish that
they should give the undertaking iii the attached
letter to the Industrial Credit Co., Ltd.
9.4.84 Undertakingfrom College Trustees Ltd. in which they
confirm that they have purchased a list of securities
for Twinlakes Jersey Ltd. The shares purchased are
as follows -
840 shares in BASF at a cost of DM.150
540 shares in Deutsche Bank - cost DM. 199,530
230 shares in BMW - cost DM.97,865
825 shares in Bayer - cost DM. 150,645
19.1.90 Letterfrom Ansbacher Stg£2,000 to Twinlakes from
Account 602
17.10.90 Letterfrom Twinlakes, Guernsey requesting that their
account 476608 be closed, there is a reference on the
letter to CC401.
J
v j
V 1 '
< K
»
Tracing
26.10.90 Ansbacher 01354602 Account -

Twinlakes, Jersey - It had opened an account with Guinness & Mahon
on 15.11.82. On 26.10.90 IR£11,900 moved to Ansbacher 602
Ansbacher 03154602 Account <

22.1.90
21.2.90
2.5.90
24.5.90
j*
Appendix XV (55) (1) (c)
v.:
. •. _ • if:
••• ' • • • • ' • : ; . '. . •'"
.•..'••.•••• - »• . Jfcfr
•J. -.C:.. V.i v.. .. i ^rtVstfiSf/
••• • Y • ^ - i g m M
... . , .. . • . .5* «
GERRY HICKEY.!
CHEQUE £70,215.29 to.
for one month. Ru to
ratsapplicabls.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . , s
• .. - • «••» ... . •1 ' » • M • * • ' . . . ^ 4.

1
V \ *"* * v • .. v ta
... . •• , • . x** . • V* .4.*? • •* -- •• **
• * »v»W ? Y' ^' '«• I' 1, « • t .ir>* A
m/ -- « • JL »'.V» 11 1 » j1 * *»' ^«» 1. Jy" ..V ' "v '.'v •• .Ijwfcl
'..'.I
,, . 7 .MI.W •f/.^K* S-/ ^ H.-^tJVft

, • --sr.- J v »
. 1. ....1 h I'.s.tai. . 1 1 1 ~ * 1 1 ri <n .. w»w 1 ti.iil

. .. . ..... . . — . ! — —
• • v Vi s iff*
Appendix XV (55) (1) (d)
r<
ggRALB B I O B T TOT8T
Share Certificate Mo. 3 dated 21st February 1974 covering

9998 shares in Crane Holdings in name of Nifold Investments
(Jersey) Limited.
I confirm having received the above Share Certificate from

. GuinnessftKahon Ltd, 17 College Green, Dublin 2.
Signedt
Gerald Rickey /
Date i
Appendix XV (55) (1) (e)
an ~ywu inniii
MWIi
M M VM
hitim icst m m
«iVv .
<n> c m in
irmin . nu-iwiMoi
- ri
JIMM
I MtWtl/1
m • RiCKTr #S
MfMMft
II11H
J Mttl 2WUK9& »--«• l^y-101
Rtiit
Change
.v. of
Address
Wtt
Henzy Ansbacher & Co. Limited

M m Hi..* I M t s ^ ^ f g ^ M o ^ y ^ w * * » »
ITATBiEWr OP ACCOUKT • '
- u«oos<oo|^
i
c
Appendix XV (55) (1) (!)
T r i
Trvaf Orovp
>•410665
FKlMtIN 949 StSf
Telefax
From: jgtn A* l u a * Woo. inria
To: X&Lah intarecRtimafcal Budc - MallafXsBlud

Attention: is. n a n v a u t h a m t e
FBX NO: 011-3531-6783-034
Dote: Bmpbmber 1994
22
No. ofP«pw Ala pmgm ady
WoaldyempIeUBttHuteSra 1*00000utoDows:
LLOYDS B A N K LOOTED
1DD
QiSdioy
Son Code: 30-948-1
Arccwmt No. Q329953
£«HI our •coocnt wmrtw Q9UD1087/I1
p y w m m iw rawmiopiwwf MOMgrMUMBHUMHWI m i
V^vviM f^wfcwd te
Appendix XV (55) (1) (g)
frVr^.-r r^M HfceT.yg ^ H
(1) IwU.»i«h»l»
T|"1fl-1tfr*"*-1 1 0 000
«Bd
Jt fcHW m^lr .*•-
Ml, SO* 93S, >1.1.74 lalMblr ••eiuwi - n » u .Am to int«rw

0»r»l<f *tok«y
K -
o
Q u i CoUUitre. UeetiKJGr -of u|/i/>l
Reported Details
918. J.D.T. Ife shall shortly receive £290,000

f Gerry ior deposit la Cayman. Agreed that
y Hickey. tre will make available an overdraft

facility of £90,000 on a back to back
arrangement. Friction will be li%.
Appendix XV (55) (1) (i)
'tfttuy
GUIN.^ZSS A M A H O N LT?
wtiufCS rc J; \mt;-» . cJ c
</t
17. CO'.LZC: G.-.2SN.
• •• SSI I|>,4«»S
*- . •»*«,» , «.. O t s !_l N, 2.
«•• •».» • s...» ......
P. O.iOX 53A.
16th November, 1971.

Our rei. 'D:ew
C-erald Hickey, Esq.,

•rj - 26, Shrewsbury Road,
Dublin] • 4.
/
.•vi
Dear Sir,
Further to your conversation with ilr. Traynor,
v/e write to confirm that we are prepared to make available
-o you, facilities to the extent" of £100,000 (one hundred
thousand pounds), subject to the following conditions:
1. all funds being placed at your disposal to be
availed of by you in the form of a Loan
Account,
2. though repayable^ on demand the funds have been
made available to you for the period of
twelve months after which time the position
• will be reviewed,
3. we proucse to charge interest ^t a fixed rate
of 9^%. Interest will be calculated on a
quarterly basis and will become due on the
31st December, 31st march, 30th June and
30th September. •
The cheque for £100,000 drawn by you and paid in
at the funster & Leinster Bank Ltd., Dame Street, has to-
day been debited to the new Loan Account. Meanwhile, we
shall be obliged if you would be kind enough to sign aud
/ return the attached copy of this Facility Letter thereby
confirming your acceptance.of the terms and conditions
contained therein.
Yours faithfully,
for C-UIN2JESS & SIAHON LTD.
Appendix XV (56) Mr Jorge Hine & Mrs Margo Hine
Jorge & Mrs Margo Hine.
a) Letter of 24 December 1986 from MJ Pender to BA Ursell.
b) Guinness and Mahon schedule re hypothecated loans as at 31 January

1988.
c) Guinness and Mahon memo of 10 December 1987 to GMCT.
d) Schedule of GMCT balances prepared by Mr Padraig Collery on 19

October 1987.
M.J.P.'to RA. Ursell 24th December, 1986
Bruce :
As requested I list hereundarpartJculars of the Accounts for which we hold backing
deposits from GMCT :
a) Non Resident Accounts ( which are included in the full set-.:eff

category for Central Bank Returns : -
J A M Hine 101,000.00
- 9t -
Ifpamn 10
M m *~mrmi —athaeata« l>W8lit» 31 J U W T » H
Lou Deposit Met Bal Currency

1000 1000 (000
i«
J & M line 13 63 0S$
cayaan
I
I
I
i
« . <•
TO: G.M.C.T.
DATE: 10th December, 1987.
TEST:
Attention: Mike Shields.
Re: Jorge & Ms. Margo Hine Loan U.S.$100,000

Above loan was reduced by U.S.$1,000. Maturity date 21st May, 1988. Interest rate 18% fixed.
Trust you will agree with above particulars.
Regards: Pat O'Dwyer,
AUTHORISED BY;
DEBIT:
COST:
FILE:
VotVl OP «*U% AMAL.
{
£Ht>
M m Ma
I
o7itoai7 Hint USt
fry GW^ CurCL V-s

Appendix XV (57) Mr Denis A Jackson
Denis A Jackson.
a) Sehedule of names supplied by Mr Stakelum with his letter to the

Inspectors of 21 February 2001
b) Letter of 15 January 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
c) Letter of 25 June 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.
d) Letter of 17 January 1990 - Martin Lanigan-O'Keeffe to JD Traynor.

SCHEDULE 1
Name. Offthors BacHo DatoDapotf DataDapotft S **cb* Funds Source of Funds

Back loan. Opanad Closed OflWiora I1W1 Pounds.
Denis Jackson. Yes. No. Mid 1980s. c. 19S7/K None.
c
42 Fitzwilliam Square, P.O. Bob 887, Omd Caymn, Brickh Woe India
Dublin 2. Phone (809) 949-465V4
Telex: CP 4305
1V>1: 765144/763065 Fn: (809) 949-7946
Fta: 612035 (809) 949-5267
15th January, 1990.

M. Lanigan O'Kaeffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
Guinness A Mahon United,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Martin,
Cbuld you please arrange to let me have a Sterling Draft in the BUR of
Stg.£5,000 payable to Denis Jiackson and debit Ansbacher Account
Mb.13154602.
I would like to collect this Draft cn Wednesday naming please if
possible.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
/AJW
*
i Iftnifir i>*rlW fTirwj fudliftr ffuMfni n r
Pica*replyto: P.O. Box 87, Onad Gqraa, Mfak W m ]

PhMKCNQMMin/4
42 FftzwflHam Square, T*kCT4NS
Dublin 1 Fuc 009) M*-7M
Td: 765144/763065
Fax: 612095
25th June, 1990.
M. David Huaphriea, Esq.,
—v Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness * Mahon Limited,
17 College Green, *
DUBLIN 2. §
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to let ne have a draft for
Stg.£5,000.00 payable to Denis Jackson and debit the cost
to Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
17th January, 1990
Mr J D Traynor
42 Fitswllliam Square
DUBLIN 2
Daar Das
I rafar to your lattars of 15th. January. Enclosed please find
drafts as follows:
Denis Jackson 8TO£5,000.00
The Starling equivalent of the XRP draft la £2,835.00.
Yours sincersly
Martin Ldhigan-O'Xaaffe
enc
Appendix XV (58) Mr Thomas Jackson
Thomas Jackson.
a) Telefax of 31 May 1976 - JD Traynor to GMCT.

TO: ' J o i n i.Tttra«, Haq., Guinnaaii Mahon Cayman Truat Ltd.,
DATE: May, 1976.
TEtfT: v
On Frank tae'a Inatraetion* plaaaa tranafar ^200.00 fro* Tcray

Jaokaea* a aeeaunt to <•
O'Conaox-a h t m ^ i Traral Inc.,
583, Vast 207 Straat,
Haw Tork 10034. '
Attention Barry ISronay.
j.D.mnroa
AUTHORISED BY: "

DEBIT:
COST:
Wtfc
Appendix XV (59) Jamila Pty Ltd
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Jamila Pty Ltd.
a) Facsimile of 3 March 1981 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
b) Facsimile of 6 March 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr RH Tolley.
c) Facsimile of 6 March 1981 - Mr RH Tolley to Guinness and Mahon.
d) Facsimile of 6 March 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
e) Letter of 7 August 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
f) Letter of 2 December 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr RH Tolley.

: O
23203 MARS El
4303 6MCT CP
02
3 MARCH 1981
6 H OUBLIN • mJ.V
ATT L0AN8 DEPT
REF WILSON BISHOP.TOLLEY BACK TOT BACK LOAM
WE HAVE BEEN ADVISED BY MR TOLLEY THAT HE HA8 NOT RECEIVED THE LOAN V*
A6REEHENT FOR SI6NATURE. I PRESUME THIS REFERS TO A NEW BACK TO, ; . ^ <
BACK LOAN. IF NOT ALREAOY SENT COULD YOU PLEASE EXPEDITE.
6UINNES8 HAHON CAYNAN TRUST
23203 HARB EI
4303 6NCT CP
E
• •«/• t-&\
' Vv. *
c
V
t
TOLLEYt MELBOURNE» AUSTRALIA.
GUINNESS+MAHON LTD DUBLIN
6. J. 6i.
'ILA P/L
'.f 77M7 /I FACILITY LETTER OUTLINING TERMS AND CONDITIONS

LE TO NEU LOAN IS BEING PREPARED AND ULL BE FORUARDED TO
>JE COURSE WITH GUARANTEES FOR SIGNATURE. FUNDS HILL BE
RON COMPLETION OF NECESSARY DOCVMENTAION AND LODGEMENT OF
. FUNDS WITH G.M.C.T.
m
D G.M.C. T. OF THE POSIT ION.*
• ••».« * ii •
YER
ii 08*
',33127
REFERRING J(Q HY-. LETTER 15.1.61 RE6AADINS THIS SUBJECT HE
SHORTLY BE REPAYING EITHER UB DLR6 301000 OR lOOiOOO OEUTBCHfe;
KARKSiOfVMRMER LpANB. TRUST YOU ARE PREPARES LOAN AfREE«ltfr
M I unrtanie MA DVD lUl.nnn I AAM TAlM.1t.';
„_... . ___ FUNDS. JMUkft r/V. Bum IP in® ™ •
AUBTRkj»SlSMjTOL..I 87 BUEEN STREET. MELBOURNE ACCOUNT NO.l^fe-.flA
HE AREÎiyiWTp SHOW RESERVE BANK OF AUSTRALIA LOAN AGREEMEN
AND GUAR^pEES. | ' "'
TOLLEY* 'T.s'^
2320S HAB^gttt-.
Appendix XV (59) (l)(d)
m wxn-, • •:"
m fprig^jaÎMM EI
"'•[' '$2934303+
Vj"03 6NCT CP
iff '23203 tMM EI
tor • • GUINNESS HAHON CAYMAN TRUST •it'
FRONt SUINNESS+MAHON LTD DUBLIN
DATE I 6;3.3i.
j*. I
REt JAMILA PROP. L
l e 1
• YOU.u UILLuHOLO
«£ SAME Z.y
PTV"H'RECEIVED
W fOUR
OUR' EEBACKING.
f SSB?- ORDER. FUNDS
1 U1LLP.M.260,00a
tom'K?nor ANVTHAWr
^ • '*•Ptf
, v facilith letter and i-i" .-:*WI
. REGARDS
ACCOUNT. HITH N.B.' Off
PAT • 0'DUYER++ ,
• r. • (:iSfr*a
4303 6MCT CP
23203MARS EI
Appendix XV (59) ( l ) ( e )
W M O H W B O P I f f t l B y fi g Q fiy LTD* y ;.::.,; ^ f ^ j i ^ l
"' • ' 'T. • I in"? IXI'I • T* • • I I . '•
? fit*?*
Daar Mtk*» •S• • * . j : -
l.tafar to ourraoaat
in tncioalne
lneaptton to data. •yti.'otrm':

i1 v ' ri-t. .T-
M Copiaa of tha two Loan aooauntaln tha namaof WUaonBiihop
Tollay Pty Ltd. Cromjaauary l9?Utodat«7 P.
' . 41
• V.
In tha o i m of Jamiia Proparty Llmjtad.1 hava raoalvad achaqua. .
raquaatiag Intaraat dabliadto tha acoouaton tha 30tbjuna, tha oradlt • * . >J
t • • :
bacomaa payablaoh thaSOth Baptaobar.Mft Sajoaiifair'/; 3Cat March „:•.•.•.isfe,

and 30tfa j M B ^ a a r y a a r ^ > r 5
* • • *" V -vvsv" .' .••I, .vv
D. M.40;027 ^4Va»pactivaly.^
• P .6*'f^^"•"•••••'sli'iifc
-cfc-.r;
/' Ax.-*-.-/-
• —-
T-iiiiffrmiMirSSi.'
PatO'Dwyar • ••'"•y^W^m
Banking Manager V:'. * v r - r r ^ + f f i j ^ * ' , • • • •'*». Tpfrrt
•••uUVJ
v"*? <••.•»> •> i r1,.

i. rttfVy**ît,' •
. • . *• . r. V- .
J;;
MM i. • • •
•J .'
. • ». , • . . ... v • V> • . ,-m ,...
i • • «• # • .'V'V^-'Vuv* y/.H*••.».' r • .• • • v.-'
- •
- V . . • . . •• y*;»V
• i**' .•••> v1:.*"-!*'
'!• '»».' , ,-V ' I*--r • «>'<,'«j>
Appendix XV (59) (1) (f)
ÛNKEBS C Jim)
tiOr Ref: PO'D/SC 2nd December, 1981.
Mr. R. H. Tolley,
Managing Director,
Wilson Bishop Tolley ft Co. Pty. Ltd.,
628-630, Bourke Street,
MELBOURNE,
VICTORIA 3000
Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co. Pty. Ltd.,

JMi!5_teB!Tl§t§nL!:lBiS!4
Dear Mr. Tolley,

I refer to recent correspondence In connection with the above loans.
r As the loansare now proving inconvenient to us I shall be obliged 1f you will
(. kindly made arrangements/to repay the outstanding liabilities. Sums of
«t<to4.230.M. 3031770:10 and U.S.WtWWS' will be required to repay the capital sums
plus Interest as at 80th Pe6enibeP|198]:' The amounts In question should be
paid Into our accounts at Deutsche Bank A.6., Postfach 2631, D. 6000 Frankfurt
(Main) 1, Account No. 932 6935 and Manufacturers Hanover Trust Company,
International Division, 4 New York Plaza, N.Y. 1100 15 Account No. 544-7-23776
under advice to us. The above figures have been made up as follows:-
Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co. Pty. Ltd. D.M. Loan foot, c
Interest to 89*h December ill fli
VIJi99
,40.874. T8
Wilson Bishop Tollsy ft Co. Pty. Ltd. U.S.$ Loan 01,664.74- 1*>ex>c
Interest toflflthPeeember -481:IS* t o St. y/
* et~v« w
Jamila Proprietary Limited D.M. Loan 260,00(h00 A ^ I O S W

I n t e r e s t to 20tiUDeeember 8.706.95
Yours sincerely,
Pat O'Owyer
MAJfc i^siMi Mi NMM&
n
WMI
«f gmtwi*..! fw
Appendix XV (60) Mr William Kearney
William Kearney.
a) Letter of 30 June 1976 - TR Leonard to GMCT.
b) Letter of 30 June 1976 - TR Leonard to Mr Frank Lee.
c) Letter of 8 July 1976 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.
d) Letter of 17 December 1976 - TR Leonard to William Kearney.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr William Kearney.
a) Letter of 10 October 2001 - Barry M O'Meara & Son to the Inspectors.

Our Weft TRL:AB
30th
J.A.Furze. Esq..
8u1 tiness Mahon Cayaan Trust Ltd.,
P.O.Box. 867.
Grand Cayaan*
BRITISH WEST INDIES.
Dear John*
Also enclosed Is a copy latter froa Frank Lee dated 29th.

June. 1976. and I confira having effected all transfers
as Instructed fro® hare to-day. Consequently, -the
Monarch Property loans have bean discharged 1a full and
tha G.M.C.T. 'tr series In starling deposits have been
eliminated. A balance of $127.90 now reaalns on a G.M.C.T.
*U.' Doltar Deposit account I opened to facilitate these
transfers and perhaps you would advise ae as to tha disposal
of these funds In dua course.
Kind regards*
.* Yours sincerely*
MANA6ER ACCOUNTS
zze ooeoeo/io//.oo/o
Our Raf: TRLiAB.
Frank Lee, E s q . ,
Westboro,
Montenotte,
CORK
re; Monarch Properties Ltd.
Dear Frank,
I thank you for your latter dated 29th.June, 1976,
enclosing cheque 1n tha .sua of S19,068. 70 to discharge.,
the Monarch loans.
TRe dollar transfers to 1n.Houston and to.
C.J. and A.M.Colllna 1a New York have been effected as
requested.
I a a to-daysand1ngadi 4 «ft 1n tha sua of 917,018. 81 to . W
Jqhn Furze for credit to an account 1n tha naae of Nllllaa
Yours sincerely.
T.R.LEONARD
HANA6ER ACCOUNTS.
eze ooeoeo/'to/'/.oo/'o
Appendix XV (60) (l)(c)
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
^Mi^kMt Mo ROlSm M7
Tmx »30« *
CsMtJUMrtN (MMMM trttkftWNttodbi
8tfa JUly, 1976

yamtmt
our raf MBlOlb
T. R. L m o l t B>I>
GolaMM a Mbon Zialted
17 Ooilagp Qatm
PnfrHr 2
Daar Ha,
I thank yoa faryour lafetar of 30th A w 1976 mtOadng
X h a w alao liquidated all tha " TflariaaStaeling dqxxits.

WLtti regard to tfea outstanding credit of UB6127.90
to GM London tea cradit to our 7 IVB UB Dollar
Thanking you in tbi»
'Xbuza ainoamly,
Our Ref: TRL;AB
17th* December, 1976.
Ml I.I tan Kearney, Esq.,
Dear Mr. Kaerney,

At the request of SuImmm Mshon Cayman Trust Halted I aneleaa
herewith cheque In the sua of £10,418.10, repreaentlne U.S. ,
Dollars 17,398. 23 at 1.67.
I should be plaeaed If you would kindly acknowledge receipt of

this cheque by signing and returning the enclosed copy of this
Yours sincerely.
TI7T7
ACCOUNTS.
Enc/2.
r /<:/.
Barrv M. O'Meara & Son
V
SOLICITORS
Our Ref: JAP/C OK/PUO121/8 18, South Mall,
Cork, Ireland.
Your Ref: C/K13/NSPM
Tel: (021) 427 3305
Fax: (021) 427 4693
D.X. N o . 2059
E-mail: bmom@securemaU.ie
Ths Office
Of the Inspectors of the High Court 10 th October 2001
Third Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin
Re: William Kearney Deceased
Dear Inspectors,
We confirm that we have been handed your letter of the 21 st ult. addressed to
Veronica Purcell. The Executors of the Estate of William Kearney are Veronica
Purcell and Peter Kearney and we are instructed by them to respond to you.
We confirm that this firm acted in the administration of the Estate of the late William
Kearney who died on the 19 th of September 1994/ At the time of his death a thorough
and full evaluation of his assets was undertaken.by this office for Probate purposes
and the usual Searches were made in financial institutions. Arising out of that
evaluation of his assets no reference or evidence was found to suggest that the late
William Kearney was a client of Ansbacher, Guinness Mahon or in anyway involved
with or connected with Monarch Properties Limited.
We are instructed by the Executors to inform you that our clients are very surprised at
the allegation that their father may have had any such an account. They do not have
any knowledge nor do they accept that William Kearney had such an account as
alleged. This surprise is based on the fact that he was not a good manger of his
finances and throughout his life he immersed himself totally in his medical career to
the exclusion of everything else. One can only assume if there was such an account
as you allege it was opened without his instructions and/or without his knowledge.
We refer to the documentation furnished by you particularly the four letters attached
to your letter and we make the following observations and comments upon the said
letters.
We refer to the two letters dated the 30 of June 1976, one written by T R Leonard to
J A Furze and the second by T R Leonard to Frank Lee. John Purcell BCL
Simon J. Murphy BCL
Catherine M. Deasy BCL
Barry G. O'Meara BCL
Crona Hughes BCL
Virginia Harrington BABCLnapComp
Consultants:
John A. O'Meara
KE0233/1/4104lntwi 6d&)elan
Dublin Office:
26/ 27 Upper Ormond Quay.
(a) If an account ,vas opened in the name of William Kearney who authorised the
opening of the account? Is there a signature on any documents opening the
alleged account?
(b) Who are the signatories on the account?
(c) Who controlled the account?
(d) Who signed the Authority for the withdrawal of monies?
(e) It is noted that the monies were in dollars. Where had the dollars originated
from?
We now refer to the other two letters, namely, the letter dated the 8 t h of July 1976
Michael Shield of Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust Limited to T R Leonard of
Guinness and Mahon Limited and letter of the 17 th of December 1976 from T R
Leonard addressed to William Kearney (no address). We make the following
observations and comments:-
(a) The funds were placed on deposit for six months on the 8 t h of July 1976. They
were withdrawn before the six months were up on the 17 th of December 1976.
Who authorised the withdrawal?
(b) Who signed the withdrawal document?
(c) On whose instructions were these monies moved from place to place as it is
quite clear there were no instructions from William Kearney?
(d) We refer to the purported letter to William Kearney Esq. dated the 17 th of
December. To what address was this letter sent?
(e) The said letter of the 17 th of December refers to a receipt. Do you have a
receipt and by whom is it signed? If such a receipt exists and is signed by one
William Kearney please furnish a copy and we will let you know whether we
believe it is the signature of the late Professor William Kearney.
(f) Who instructed T R Leonard to send the said monies to a William Kearney on
the 17 th of December 1976?
Neither our clients nor ourselves have any knowledge or reason to believe that the late
William Kearney was a client of Ansbacher, other than the evidence you have
furnished which in itself is not conclusive, in that you have not furnished sufficient
documentation to show that monies were held in the name of the late Professor
William Kearney, nor is there any evidence that he received such monies. More
significantly we have not received any documentation from you to-date to show his
signature attached to any documentation opening an account or withdrawing monies
from an account. It is also noted that your conclusion was that Professor William
Kearney as a client of Ansbacher. None of the documentation furnished refers to a
Professor William Kearney. For this reason amongst several others we cannot accept
your conclusion.
We are concerned that the letters attached to your letter of the 21 st ult. includes the
names of other third parties, which appear unrelated to the alleged payment to
William Kearney. We trust that no such publication of the late Professor William
Kearney's name will be made to any third parties or published without full
justification for same and that no such publication will take place without this office
being first notified so that we have on behalf of our clients the full opportunity to
consider same. Please confirm.
KE0233/I/41040L-I.DOC
Finally we wish to point out in the strongest manner that the letters you have sent us
do not establish that Professor William Kearney was a client of Ansbacher.
KE0233/1/410401/-1. DOC
Appendix XV (61) Mr John Kennedy
John Kennedy.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr John Kennedy dated 13 April 2000.
b) Letter and enclosures of 15 March 2000 - Mr John Kennedy to Inspectors.
c) Letter of 17 June 1993 - Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited

to IIB.
d) Statement of a/c of Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited of 6

October 1994.
Appendix XV (61) (l)(a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JOHN KENNEDY
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 13TH APRIL 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. JOHN KENNEDY
Represented by: MR. DAVID CLARKE
McCANN FITZGERALD
2 HARBOURMASTER PLACE
IFSC
DUBLIN 1
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. J. KENNEDY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY,
2 13TH MARCH 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Kennedy, let me
5 introduce myself. I am
6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey. We
7 are two of the Inspectors who have been appointed,
8 as you know, by The High Court.
10 I should explain to you, as I do to other people
11 who come to us like you, that this is not a Court
12 hearing. It is not a Tribunal. It is an
13 investigation. We are carrying out an investigation
14 and we want to ask you some questions.
15
16 If in the course of the questions we ask you if you
17 wish to get the advice of your solicitor on the
18 question please tell us and we will stop asking you
19 questions.
20
21 Similarly, if your solicitor wishes at any time to
22 ask us to stop, that he wishes to consult with you,
23 he is a liberty to do so.
24
25 Mr. Kennedy, we take your evidence on oath and we
26 will ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, now, to
27 administer the oath to you.
28 MR. CLARKE: There are a couple of
29 small points, Sir, which I
4
1 would like to make when Mr. Kennedy has been
2 administered the oath.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. JOHN KENNEDY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS
2 FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, Mr. Clarke?
5 MR. CLARKE: Forgive me, Sir. It is
6 just a few small points,
7 having spoken to Mr. Kennedy about it.
9 As you have said, Sir, the Inspectors are here
10 carrying out an investigation and I have confirmed
11 to Mr. Kennedy, and I think I understand the
12 position correctly, that the inspection is obviously
13 an inspection into the affairs of the company.
14
15 In the Inspector's letter to us, understandably they
16 said clearly, that in order for the purpose of doing
17 that it was going to be necessary to ask Mr. Kennedy
18 questions about his affairs with the company.
19
20 However, I think I am right in saying, Sir, that
21 the inspection is not an inspection or report in
22 relation to Mr. Kennedy's own tax affairs. I take
23 it that that is the situation.
24
25 It has a particular, I suppose, significance in
26 relation to Mr. Kennedy's own position because as
27 you will be aware from the statement, which we would
28 have submitted to you beforehand, Mr. Kennedy did
29 take advantage of The Waiver Act 1973 and by virtue
6
1 of that I think is the intention of the Act; he is
2 to be regarded as having fully dealt with all his
3 tax affairs and they would not be enquired into
4 other than under the...(INTERJECTION).
5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I know what you say
6 Mr. Clarke. If there is
7 any question that I ask that you wish to raise any
8 point on please let me know.
9 MR. CLARKE: I understand that, Sir,
10 sorry.
11 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Kennedy, you supplied
12 us with a statement and I
13 would like to take you through the statement and ask
14 you some questions arising from it. However, before
15 that perhaps you could just give me an outline of
16 your business history before that. You were in the
17 developing, the building, trade, is that right?
18 A. Yes, that is right, since about 19 -- what year?
19 The late 1960s I think.
20 2 Q. The late 1960s, yes. Had you a partner then,
21 Mr. McKeon?
22 A. I had a partner, Mr. McKeon.
23 3 Q. What was the name of your company then?
24 A. Sheelin Homes Limited.
25 4 Q. Yes. Before you established this trust had you had
26 any dealings with Mr. Traynor or Guinness & Mahon?
27 A. Yes, with a Guinness & Mahon. Sheelin Homes had
28 purchased two sites from Guinness & Mahon.
29 5 Q. From Guinness & Mahon?

1 A. Yes .
2 6 Q. Did you meet Mr. Traynor then in the course of your
3 business arrangements with Guinness & Mahon or how
4 did that come about...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. No, I met Mr. O'Kelly.
6 7 Q. Mr. O'Kelly?
7 A. Yes .
8 8 Q. Was it at Mr. O'Kelly's suggestion then that you
9 considered establishing a trust in the Cayman
10 Islands ?
11 A. I just can't remember that.
12 9 Q. Yes?
13 A. It was explained to me by Mr. Traynor.
14 10 Q. Yes?
15 A. Just exactly the first instance of it I just don't
16 remember exactly.
17 11 Q. You do not remember?
18 A. No.
19 12 Q. Yes. However, either Mr. Traynor contacted you or
20 Mr. O'Kelly suggested that you contact and talk to
21 Mr. Traynor about it, is that what happened?
22 A. Yes .
23 13 Q. Right. I would like you to explain Mr. Kennedy, in
24 as much detail as you can, what Mr. Traynor told you
25 it was proposed to do?
26 A. Mr. Traynor explained that instead of having money
27 in an account with one of the banks in Dublin like
28 AIB or Bank Of Ireland or whatever, which wasn't
29 disclosed income or not disclosed money, that if the

1 money were given to him he could put it, treat it,
2 in such a way that if questions were asked about the
3 money that the money would be effectively outside my
4 control and my ownership.
5 14 Q. Yes?
6 A. Totally outside my own ownership and control, but
7 that it was a question of being able to trust
8 Mr. Traynor entirely and that if I could get over
9 that problem with him then the money would be
10 outside my ownership and control in every sense of
11 the word but that he would have -- I would have an
12 understanding with him that at the same time while
13 it wasn't legally my money he would make it
14 available to me for whatever purpose I wished.
15 15 Q. Yes. Did he explain to you about the establishment
16 of a trust?
17 A. Yes.
18 16 Q. Had you ever come across a discretionary trust
19 before this?
20 A. No.
21 17 Q. Did he explain to you that this was a discretionary
22 trust?
23 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).
24 18 Q. Do you remember those words being used?
25 A. I don't recall those words.
26 19 Q. You do not recall it?
27 A. No, what the gist of it was, I remember distinctly
28 saying, that I would have no control legally at all.
29 20 Q. Yes?
9
1 A. Or ownership over the money.
2 21 Q. Yes?
3 A. Once I passed it to him.
4 22 Q. Yes. However...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. But -- pardon.
6 23 Q. No. Did he explain to you about the money being in
7 the ownership of a trust company and that you would
8 be sending a Letter Of Wishes as to how you wished
9 the trust company to use the money?
10 A. There was certainly a Letter Of Wishes. I don't
11 recall to whom the Letter Of Wishes was addressed
12 but that didn't seem to me important for the reason
13 that it was a question that if I knew if the money
14 was passed out of my control that it was simply a
15 matter of relying entirely.
16 24 Q. On him?
17 A. On Mr. Traynor's good...(INTERJECTION).
18 25 Q. I see?
19 A. Good will.
20 26 Q. I see. Mr. Kennedy, you did not consult any legal
21 advisor, did you?
22 A. Not at all.
23 27 Q. About this?
24 A. No.
25 28 Q. I am sure you had an accountant yourself at the
26 time. Perhaps, you had a personal accountant, had
27 you, for your own personal affairs?
28 A. I am an accountant myself.
29 29 Q. You are an accountant yourself?
10
1 A. And I did have an accountant as well.
2 30 Q. Yes?
3 A. But it was on the basis with Mr. Traynor that this
4 wasn't to be discussed with anybody else.
5 31 Q. With anybody else?
6 A. And I was comfortable with that just simply because
7 I accepted him at his word.
8 32 Q. You trusted Mr. Traynor?
9 A. Yes.
10 33 Q. Who were your firm of accountants then?
11 A. Buckley Delaney.
12 34 Q. Buckley?
13 A. Buckley Delaney.
14 35 Q. Delaney, yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 36 Q. They looked after your company's accounts, did they?
17 A. Yes, they did.
18 37 Q. Did they look after your own personal tax accounts
19 as well?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 38 Q. You did not talk to -- was it Mr. Delaney who was
22 looking after them?
23 A. Mr. Dan Delaney, yes.
24 39 Q. Yes. Can you remember did you actually sign a
25 Trust Deed yourself Mr. Kennedy?
26 A. I do remember a document, quite a thick document.
27 40 Q. Yes?
28 A. You know, something like that (INDICATING).
29 41 Q. Yes?
11
1 A. I am sure I signed it. I don't remember, you know.
2 42 Q. Yes?
3 A. And I wasn't that concerned about it to be honest.
4 43 Q. Yes?
5 A. But I do -- there was certainly a document and there
6 was certainly a Letter Of Wishes.
7 44 Q. Yes?
8 A. They are the only two documents that I actually
9 remember.
10 45 Q. Yes. You see why I ask you that Mr. Kennedy is that
11 some of the evidence which we have obtained would
12 indicate that a person in your position actually did
13 not himself sign the Trust Deed, that somebody else
14 signed the Trust Deed, that you were told -- that
15 you could have been told that it would be a person
16 in the Cayman Islands who would be actually signing
17 the Deed. Do you remember anything like that being
18 said?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 46 Q. You do not?
21 A. No.
22 47 Q. You do not -- can you -- have you any recollection
23 of actually signing it or just reading the document?
24 A. I don't remember signing it.
25 48 Q. You do not remember signing it?
26 A. I just kind of -- I assumed I had signed it. I
27 don't remember it.
28 49 Q. Yes, I see, yes. What about the Letter Of Wishes,
29 can you remember signing it?
12
1 A. I think I did sign the Letter Of Wishes.
2 50 Q. You think you signed?
3 A. I remember -- I think I remember signing the
4 Letter Of Wishes.
5 51 Q. Do you remember what it said?
6 A. I think it was a very short letter and I think the
7 gist of it was that if I weren't around that the
8 money would be available to my family.
9 52 Q. Yes. However, did it indicate that it would be
10 available to you if you were around?
11 A. I don't remember.
13 A. No.
14 54 Q. Yes?
15 A. I don't remember the letter, no.
16 55 Q. Yes. There was a company established also in the
17 Cayman Islands, Penta Investments Limited, is that
18 right?
20 56 Q. Were you told about it?
21 A. Just the name I knew about but other than that I
22 didn't know. I had no details about the company.
23 57 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. I don't remember seeing the Articles or memorandum
25 or lists or whatever.
26 58 Q. I wonder did you see at any time, perhaps, a very
27 short statement of account of the trust in which it
28 would have indicated that perhaps the trust owned
29 the shares in Penta Investment Limited. Can you
13
1 remember that?
3 59 Q. You do not?
5 60 Q. Do you know who owned the shares in Penta Investment
6 Limited?
7 A. No.
8 61 Q. You do not?
9 A. No, I don't remember, no.
10 62 Q. Right. Do you remember who was the Trustee then of
11 this trust?
12 A. I don't remember, no.
13 63 Q. What about the company that was in the Cayman
14 Islands that was a subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon,
15 this Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited. Did you
16 ever hear of that company?
17 A. I don't. It doesn't ring a bell.
18 64 Q. You do not?
19 A. I don't remember it.
20 65 Q. You do not remember who the Trustee was in the
21 Trust Deed that you saw?
22 A. I don't remember at all.
23 66 Q. You do not remember whether it was the company or
24 who it was?
25 A. I don't remember, no. Sorry, I
26 just...(INTERJECTION).
27 67 Q. You left it all to Mr. Traynor?
28 A. Yes.
29 68 Q. Yes?
14
1 A. Yes .
2 69 Q. At some point then you transferred funds?
3 A. Yes .
4 70 Q. Again was this at Mr. Traynor's direction?
5 A. Yes .
6 71 Q. Do you remember how -- who you transferred the funds
7 to?
8 A. I remember one meeting at the Bank Of Ireland in
9 College Green where we transferred, my partner and
10 myself transferred, money. It was just across the
11 counter if you like and Mr. Collery was there
12 at that meeting and the money was transferred,
13 literally handed over.
14 72 Q. It was not in bank notes I take it?
15 A. Yes, it was in bank notes.
16 73 Q. Was it in bank notes?
17 A. It was in bank notes.
18 74 Q. I see?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 75 Q. I see. He then -- you handed over the money to him
21 and he looked after it. He was going to put it,
22 sent it, out to Cayman Islands, is that it?
23 A. No, it was actually -- we were sitting -- standing
24 on the same side of the counter and I was here
25 (INDICATING) and he was there (INDICATING).
26 Mr. McKeon and myself was here (INDICATING) and he
27 was there (INDICATING) and we just transferred the
28 money to there (INDICATING).
29 76 Q. Yes?
1 A. And he transferred it over across the counter. It
2 was -- that was all.
3 77 Q. However, did you know where it was going to go?
4 A. No, I understood it wasn't going anywhere. That it
5 was...(INTERJECTION).
6 78 Q. Going to stay in Ireland you say?
7 A. Yes.
8 79 Q. I see. However, I will come to that now?
9 A. Yes.
10 80 Q. However, before I do so, the money that was
11 initially sent by you for the trust, for the purpose
12 of the trust?
13 A. For Penta.
14 81 Q. For Penta Investments?
15 A. Yes.
16 82 Q. Was given in cash by you to Mr. Collery?
17 A. And one other -- there was -- I also -- so far as
18 I can recall there was money in an account, in
19 accounts, with Guinness & Mahon which I think would
20 have been transferred but I wasn't involved in that,
21 transferred to Penta at the same time.
22 83 Q. Yes. However, Penta Investments was incorporated in
23 the Cayman Islands, was it not?
24 A. I didn't know that at the time.
25 84 Q. You did not know that?
26 A. I didn't know that at the time.
27 85 Q. At the time?
28 A. No.
29 86 Q. I see. You have learnd it since, have you?
16
1 A. I have been informed of it, yes.
2 87 Q. I see. What you said in your statement (Exhibit 1),
3 and I am quoting from the third paragraph. I don't
4 know if you have...(INTERJECTION)?
5 A. I have it with me, yes.
6 88 Q. Got a copy of it there?
7 A. Yes .
8 89 Q. Do you see in the middle of the page:
9 "As far as I can recall my

understanding was that the trust was to
10 be established in the Cayman Islands
but that the money would be held in
11 Ireland with 'matching funds' held
off-shore."
12
13 A. Yes .
14 90 Q. Could you just expand a little bit on that?
15 A. Yes. That is just an expression I remember being
16 used at the time.
17 91 Q. Yes?
18 A. And what I understood it to mean was that while the
19 cash that I had with Penta would be in Ireland, that
20 there were some other accounts somewhere else that
21 somehow -- that instead of actually physically
22 moving funds around the place, that the funds I had
23 would remain here and that maybe somebody else would
24 have access to those funds and I would have access
25 to funds somewhere else. I don't know. I didn't
26 actually get into the detail of it at all.
27 92 Q. I see?
28 A. It was just a strange thing because Mr. Traynor had
29 this thing of just being able to exude confidence

1 and I just went down that road with him.
2 93 Q. Yes?
3 A. And I didn't enquire in detail.
4 94 Q. Yes?
5 A. It wasn't a big issue.
6 95 Q. Looking back on it now and looking at the documents
7 that you have since seen?
8 A. Yes.
9 96 Q. Is it not clear that Penta Investments was
10 incorporated, as you say indeed in this letter, in
11 the Cayman Islands?
12 A. Yes.
13 97 Q. Is that not clear?
14 A. It is clear now, yes.
15 98 Q. Is it not clear too that Penta Investments had money
16 on deposit in the name of Penta Investments in the
17 Cayman Islands because Mr. Furze was dividing up the
18 interest, which the money had earned, between you
19 and your partner in the company, is that not clear
20 from the documents?
21 A. Yes, that is clear.
22 99 Q. Now? Now, you did not know it then, is that the
23 position?
24 A. Well, to be quite honest I hadn't really thought
25 about it very much then.
26 100 Q. Yes?
27 A. I am not sure that it is inconsistent with the
28 concept of the matching funds either.
29 101 Q. No?
18
1 A. I am not sure.
2 102 Q. We -- I am not for a moment...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 103 Q. Arguing that point with you. I am just trying to
5 find out what, in fact, what happened?
6 A. Yes.
7 104 Q. What you now know happened?
8 A. Yes.
9 105 Q. Does it now not look as if this Cayman Island
10 company had on its books the funds?
11 A. Yes.
12 106 Q. Which you had transferred, given, to Mr. Collery and
13 that in some way these funds were on the books of
14 the Cayman company in Cayman earning interest,
15 which Mr. Furze divided up, and which you
16 used subsequently as part of the documents that you
17 showed to the Revenue?
18 A. That is correct.
19 107 Q. Is that not so?
20 A. That is exactly right, yes.
21 108 Q. So that, in fact, you were paying tax on interest
22 that arose in the Cayman Islands?
23 A. Yes.
24 109 Q. Does that not look -- is that not what was
25 happening?
26 A. Yes, that is exactly it.
27 110 Q. Yes?
28 A. The situation, yes.
29 111 Q. Yes. I just want to understand what, in fact,
19
1 happened?
2 A. Yes .
3 112 Q. I can see that your knowledge of what happened
4 now is different to your knowledge when the
5 scheme started, is that not so?
6 A. It is so but I am still not clear exactly, you know,
7 where the money was.
8 113 Q. Where the money was?
9 A. I am still not... (INTERJECTION) .
10 114 Q. I understand?
11 A. I still don't understand that.
12 115 Q. Yes. Leaving aside the technicalities of where the
13 money was?
14 A. Yes .
15 116 Q. You seemed to have had no doubt that you were
16 entitled to use the money that you had given to
17 Mr. Collery and Mr. Traynor?
18 A. I didn't. I understood clearly that I didn't have a
19 legal entitlement.
20 117 Q. Yes?
21 A. I passed over the legal ownership but that, under
22 Mr. Traynor's arrangement, I would be able to use
23 them. That was the good will.
24 118 Q. Yes?
25 A. The understanding of the trust.
26 119 Q. Because, in fact, the accounts you got were in the
27 name, were they not, of originally the Guinness
28 Mahon Cayman Island Trust and then later
29 "Ansbacher", is that not so? Did you not see the

1 accounts?
2 A. No.
3 120 Q. Did you not?
4 A. No, no. The word "Ansbacher" never
5 properly...(INTERJECTION).
6 121 Q. Never?
7 A. Never occurred, no.
8 122 Q. I see. When you got accounts from time to time?
9 A. Yes.
10 123 Q. Were these as a result of asking Mr. Traynor or
11 would they come automatically to you, do you
12 remember?
13 A. I just don't remember. I'm sure I would have been
14 curious about it. They came very infrequently like
15 maybe once a year or maybe that kind of thing,
16 infrequent.
17 124 Q. Yes?
18 A. And when they came they were on just simple blank
19 sheets of paper with some numbers.
20 125 Q. I see. There was no name on it?
21 A. There was no name.
22 126 Q. Yes?
23 A. Or addresses.
24 127 Q. Yes?
25 A. Or anything like that.
26 128 Q. The blank sheets of paper, were they rather like a
27 bank statement?
28 A. No.
29 129 Q. Which showed credit and...(INTERJECTION)?
21
1 A. No.
2 130 Q. They were not at all...(INTERJECTION)?
3 A. No.
4 131 Q. Like bank statements?
5 A. No, no. Not at all, no.
6 132 Q. Yes. They were as if they were typed up on a blank
7 sheet of paper?
8 A. Yes.
9 133 Q. The figures?
10 A. Absolutely, yes.
11 134 Q. What did those figures show?
12 A. They showed how the balance on -- I presume -- I
13 just can't remember now. I think it would have
14 shown the balance of say Penta Limited under
15 whatever denominations, dollars, sterling and
16 whatever maybe three or four lines.
17 135 Q. However, it was in the name of Penta Investments
18 Limited, is that right?
19 A. As far as I am remember, yes.
20 136 Q. As far as you remember?
21 A. Yes.
22 137 Q. Yes. This showed you what account, what deposits,
23 the company held?
24 A. Yes, the accumulated...(INTERJECTION).
25 138 Q. The accumulated?
26 A. Value.
27 139 Q. Value?
28 A. Of that money, yes.
29 140 Q. If we could just develop it a little bit. If you
22
1 turn over the page to the paragraph beginning
2 (Exhibit 1):
3 "From time to time I received

statements"?
4
5 A. Yes.
6 141 Q. It reads:
7 "I was asked from time to time in what

currency I wished to have the funds or
8 parts of the funds denominated..."
10 A. Yes.
11 142 Q.
"...and I chose currencies from time to
12 time..."?
13
14 A. Yes.
15 143 Q. Who asked you about that Mr. Kennedy? Was it
16 Mr. Traynor?
17 A. Either Mr. O'Kelly or Mr. Traynor.
18 144 Q. Mr. O'Kelly or Mr. Traynor?
19 A. Yes.
20 145 Q. Would you have talked with both of them about this?
21 A. I am sure I did. There were very few conversations
22 about it.
23 146 Q. Yes?
24 A. It wasn't -- you know what I mean? It wasn't a
25 thing where there was a lot of communication. There
26 was very little communication.
27 147 Q. Yes?
28 A. Yes.
29 148 Q. You say:
23
1 "I chose currencies from time to time
as I thought were most profitable"?
2 A. Yes .
3 149 Q. Would you say, "Well, I would like so much of my
4 funds in dollars security, in dollars, or so much
5 of my funds in Deutschemarks." Is that what
6 happened?
7 A. That is exactly, yes.
8 150 Q. You knew they were on deposit, is that right?
9 A. Yes. They were on deposit in effect. I knew they
10 were on deposit, yes.
11 151 Q. Yes?
12 A. I didn't get into -- it didn't strike me, you
13 know, as to where or when and so on. I thought
14 Mr. Traynor was kind of running some kind of
15 arrangement where he could -- everything seemed to
16 be really easy for him and the money was on deposit.
17 152 Q. The money was on deposit?
18 A. Yes .
19 153 Q. Then it was on deposit in sterling, some of it was
20 in a sterling account, is that right? Some of it
21 was in a dollar account and some of it was in a
22 Deutschemarks, is that what you understood?
23 A. They were denominated in those currencies.
24 154 Q. Denominated in those?
25 A. What I mean by that, I think, is I assumed
26 Mr. Traynor had sufficient, you know, he had --
27 whatever large funds he was dealing with he could
28 say -- he could place your -- give you denominations
29 in whatever way you wanted it.
24
1 155 Q. Yes?
2 A. And you took your chances on it in that way.
3 156 Q. What you mean by that is that if the currency
4 appreciated you would gain by it?
5 A. Yes .
6 157 Q. Is that it?
8 158 Q. You would have known also, of course, that the money
9 was earning interest?
10 A. Yes .
11 159 Q. From the knowledge you have since received
12 Mr. Kennedy, are you aware that, in fact, the
13 money to which you were entitled was held in a
14 coded account in "Ansbacher's" name, or in
15 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust's name as it then
16 was, in Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
17 A. No.
18 160 Q. Did you know that it was in a coded account?
19 A. No, I didn't know.
20 161 Q. Yes. I would just like to refer you to a letter.
21 It is page 66 (Exhibit 2) (Same Handed)?
22 A. Thank you.
23 162 Q. It is a letter of the 17th June 1993. It is at
24 the time of the amnesty, the time you were
25 arranging, I think, to pay the arrears of taxes.
26 This is a letter from The Cayman International Bank
27 And Trust Company. It is from Joan Williams, you
28 will see. That is Mr. Traynor's secretary. It is
29 to The Irish Intercontinental Bank?

1 A. Yes.
2 163 Q. If I may pause there? Did you know that funds
3 over which you had control were in The Irish
4 Intercontinental Bank?
5 A. No.
7 A. No.
8 165 Q. Did you think that your funds were still in some way
9 associated with Guinness & Mahon?
10 A. Yes.
11 166 Q. Did you know that, in fact, Mr. Traynor had left
13 A. I knew he left. I can't remember just what date.
14 167 Q. The date?
15 A. I do remember.
16 168 Q. Yes?
17 A. I did know he left at some stage.
18 169 Q. However, even thought he left you still assumed?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 170 Q. That the funds were in Guinness & Mahon?
21 A. Yes.
22 171 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 172 Q. It is just that I want to refer you there in
25 this letter (Exhibit 2), which is addressed to
26 Mr. Redmond in The Irish Intercontinental Bank. It
27 is referring to the movement of funds. You will see
28 on the third line:
29 "Holding on deposit under reference B/P

and B/Q."
26
1
2 Then if you look further down the paragraph?
3 A. Yes.
4 173 Q. You will see:
5
"DMs in Account Ref. B/P..."
6
7 And then:
8 "US$ in Account Ref. B/P."
9 You do not know that that was the code used in the
10 account for your funds?
11 A. No.
12 174 Q. You do not know that?
13 A. No, I don't know that, no.
14 175 Q. You do not know, do you, that the account, that
15 the funds over which you had control, in
16 Guinness & Mahon were also under the code B/P?
17 A. No.
18 176 Q. You do not know anything about that?
19 A. No. Could I just say?
20 177 Q. Yes?
21 A. That the 17th June 1993, that was — that is the
22 date on that letter.
23 178 Q. That is right, yes?
24 A. That the amnesty thing didn't arise until December,
25 November or December 1993.
26 179 Q. Yes?
27 A. So, this wouldn't have been connected with that.
28 180 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
29 A. Was it?
27
1 181 Q. Perhaps, I am wrong then about that?
2 A. Yes.
3 182 Q. Because -- you can tell me. The records show
4 that your money was moved at that time to the
5 Isle Of Man. Did you know that?
6 A. No.
8 A. No.
9 184 Q. Did Mr. Traynor tell you that this was being done?
10 A. No. I have no recollection of that any way.
11 185 Q. You see Mr. Kennedy the records show that, for
12 reasons that have not yet been divulged, Mr. Traynor
13 at this time in June moved all your money to the
14 Isle Of Man and then back again to Dublin. You did
15 not know that?
16 A. No.
17 186 Q. While I am on this subject, I am just trying to get
18 you to be as specific as you can be, when did you
19 decide that you were going to go to The Revenue and
20 make a payment of arrears of taxes? When did you
21 decide that?
22 A. Sometime in 1993.
23 187 Q. I am just wondering was it in June 1993?
24 A. No. I think I am pretty certain. I think it is
25 much later than that.
26 188 Q. Yes?
27 A. Much later than that.
28 189 Q. I see. I know the actual payment was made much
29 later?
28
1 A. Yes.
2 190 Q. The payment was made in December or so?
3 A. Yes.
4 191 Q. Of 1993 — January 1994, the payment was made?
5 A. The payment was made in January 1994.
6 192 Q. Yes?
7 A. But the declaration was made, I think, in
8 December 1993.
9 193 Q. I see?
10 A. November or December 1993.
11 194 Q. It was later than this?
12 A. Yes.
13 195 Q. That... (INTERJECTION)?
14 A. And I didn't discuss that intention to do that.
15 196 Q. There was talk?
16 A. With Mr. Traynor until around November or December.
17 197 Q. Yes. I will return to that in a few moments. If
18 you look at your statement, the second page of your
19 statement (Exhibit 1)?
20 A. Yes.
21 198 Q. Do you see the paragraph starting:
22
"In or about 1990 I discussed
23 arrangements..."?
24
25 A. Yes.
26 199 Q.
"... under which AIB. . ."?
27
28 A. Yes.
29 200 Q.
"...would advance money for the
29
1 purchase and development of land on the
security of a guarantee to be given by
2 Guinness & Mahon..."?
4 A. Yes.
5 201 Q.
"...which might be partly secured by
6 funds in Penta Investments Limited."?
8 A. Yes.
9 202 Q. Can you remember the details of this?
10 A. What I remember is Mr. Traynor being in touch with
11 AIB and I presume I arranged either with Mr. Traynor
12 with AIB to contact each other, to be in touch, and
13 to have a conversation whereby words of comfort, or
14 letters of comfort, would be exchanged or that a
15 letter of guarantee or whatever would pass.
16 203 Q. Yes?
17 A. And...(INTERJECTION).
18 204 Q. A letter of guarantee from?
19 A. From Mr. Traynor to AIB.
20 205 Q. Yes?
21 A. To support the borrowings that we had in relation
22 to...(INTERJECTION).
23 206 Q. You say a guarantee:

24 "The security of a guarantee to be
given by Guinness & Mahon."
25
26 Is that right?
27 A. Yes, that is what I understood.
28 207 Q. Yes. Then Guinness & Mahon then in turn would look
29 for some security from you in respect of the
30
1 guarantee and that was to be the funds of Penta
2 Investments, is that right?
3 A. Well, he didn't have to look to me because he had
4 it. I mean he was controlling Penta.
5 208 Q. Yes?
6 A. So, I wasn't -- I didn't have to sign anything or
7 do anything like that.
8 209 Q. You did not sign anything?
9 A. No.
10 210 Q. However, did you know that, in fact, that Penta
11 Investment's interest in deposits were going to
12 be used as security?
13 A. That was my understanding.
14 211 Q. Did you not also know Mr. Kennedy that if you
15 wanted to you could personally withdraw funds
16 from the deposits which were held?
17 A. Yes, I did know that.
18 212 Q. You did know that?
19 A. Yes.
20 213 Q. You did, in fact, withdraw personally, did you not?
21 A. No.
22 214 Q. I am...(INTERJECTION)?
24 215 Q. Perhaps your recollection...(INTERJECTION)?
26 216 Q. Your recollection is mistaken?
27 A. Yes.
28 217 Q. Because I just want to draw you attention to this.
29 It is page 50 and then the backing document (Same
31
1 Handed) (Exhibit 3)?
2 A. Thank you.
3 218 Q. The photostat is not very good I am afraid. This
4 is the Cayman International Bank & Trust Company
5 Limited account in Irish Intercontinental Bank. Do
6 you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 219 Q. It is June 1993?
9 A. Yes.
10 220 Q. Do you see the entry that is highlighted?
11 A. Yes.
12 221 Q. It is the 17th June and it is a debit of £9,835?
13 A. Yes.
14 222 Q. If you just turn over the page to the backing
15 document?
16 A. Yes.
17 223 Q. The customer is
18 "CIBTC"
19
20 and you will see that there at the top?
21 A. Yes.
22 224 Q. You will see:
23 "OUT TO - Client's Instructions"
24
25 frame and you will see:
26 "Cheque"?
27
28 A. Yes.
29 225 Q.
"For order of John Kennedy"?
32
1
2 A. Yes.
3 226 Q. It would seem as if this was a cheque which was
4 paid out of the Cayman International Bank's
5 account in your favour?
6 A. Yes.
7 227 Q. Would you agree with that?
8 A. Yes, it certainly does seem like that, yes.
9 228 Q. Yes. It would seem that you drew that money from
10 this account. Can you remember that?
11 A. I don't remember it.
12 229 Q. You do not remember that?
13 A. I don't remember it, no.
14 230 Q. It looks very clear that it happened?
15 A. Certainly that would...(INTERJECTION).
16 231 Q. Would indicate it?
17 A. That would indicate it, yes.
18 232 Q. If we could turn now to the amnesty?
19 A. Yes.
20 233 Q. How did it come about that you decided that The
21 Statute that was enacted by the Oireachtas at that
22 time was one which applied to you? How did you come
23 to that conclusion? Did you take advice and whose
24 advice did you take?
25 A. No, it was -- there was a lot of discussion about it
26 that year and I just decided to do it.
27 234 Q. Whose advice, who did you discuss it with? What
28 professional advisor did you discuss it with?
29 A. No, I came to the conclusion myself that that was
33
1 the thing to do.
2 235 Q. Yes?
3 A. And then having decided that I got, I took, advice
4 as to how to make sure that I complied with it.
5 236 Q. Whose advice did you take?
6 A. I took the advice of Dan Delaney and
7 Padraig Bennett.
8 237 Q. When you say that you thought it was the thing to
9 do, the Act, I think, required persons who owed tax
10 to pay up the arrears?
11 A. Yes.
12 238 Q. You came to the conclusion that you owed tax?
13 A. Yes.
14 239 Q. However, did somebody not advise you that you did
15 owe tax or did you work it out yourself?
16 A. No, I knew that the money that was there had not be
17 declared to The Revenue.
18 240 Q. Yes. However, you must have come to the conclusion
19 that it should have been declared to The Revenue?
20 A. Yes.
21 241 Q. I am just wondering did anybody advise you of that
22 or did you come to it yourself?
23 A. No, I knew that. I knew that myself.
24 242 Q. You knew it yourself?
25 A. Yes.
26 243 Q. Mr. Delaney then arranged the payments and
27 negotiated on your behalf with The Revenue, is
28 that right?
29 A. Yes.
34
1 244 Q. Can you remember when that was, when you went to
2 Mr. Delaney first of all?
3 A. November or December of 1993.
4 245 Q. Not before that?
5 A. Not before that, no.
6 24 6 Q. Yes. You have explained that the documents which
7 you had were destroyed?
8 A. Yes.
9 247 Q. However, in relation to the Trust Deed, can you
10 remember whether or not you would have given that
11 to Mr. Delaney or perhaps to your legal advisor?
12 A. No.
13 248 Q. You did not?
14 A. No.
15 249 Q. You must have had the Trust Deed then, did you?
16 A. I certainly had a document if that was the Trust
17 Deed. I mean I certainly had a document at that
18 stage.
19 250 Q. You did not give that, a copy of that, to your legal
20 advisors?
21 A. No.
22 251 Q. Or to your accountants?
23 A. No.
24 252 Q. When did you destroy it, do you know?
25 A. Well, just about -- I just can't -- around that time
26 after the -- after we had completed the transaction
27 with The Revenue. Once we had made all of the
28 returns there was a sense of relief about it all and
29 it was just destroyed at that stage.
35
1 253 Q. Do you remember was the Letter Of Wishes destroyed?
2 A. Yes, as well.
3 254 Q. How is it that you have some documents? How is it
4 that you have been able to show us, give us, some
5 documents? Why were they not all destroyed?
6 A. Well, I think these were part of the parcel that
7 went with the -- in computing the tax for the
8 purpose of the amnesty.
9 255 Q. Yes. Could we just look at the documents (Exhibit
10 1) that you have forwarded to us? Do you see one
11 that is headed:
12 "Investment in Global Fund"?
13
14 A. Yes.
15 256 Q. There is Penta and then there is Tara. Do you know
16 what Global Fund was?
17 A. I don't.
18 257 Q. Who gave you that document do you remember?
20 258 Q. Was it Mr. Traynor?
21 A. I think -- I don't remember exactly. I don't
22 remember.
23 259 Q. You contacted Mr. Traynor, did you not?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 260 Q. What was his attitude to the fact that you were
26 going -- that you were accepting that you should
27 have been paying tax on these, on this interest?
28 Was he -- did he try to dissuade you from doing it?
29 A. No, he expressed surprise but not...(INTERJECTION).
36
1 261 Q. He did not say anything?
2 A. He didn't dissuade me.
3 2 62 Q. Do you see the next document:
4
"Exchange Position"
5
6 do you know where that came from?
7 A. No. No, I don't recall exactly.
8 263 Q. If you look at the next document?
9 A. Yes.
10 264 Q.
"On the basis of these figures, the
11 split is as follows..."?
12
13 A. Yes.
14 265 Q. It is signed by Mr. Furze?
15 A. Yes.
16 266 Q. That is dividing up the interest between the
17 two companies, is that not so?
18 A. Yes.
19 267 Q. Is this as a result of enquiries which you
20 personally made or which Mr. Delaney, your
21 accountant, had made?
22 A. No, I -- at this stage I think it is to do with --
23 it is the response to my request for information,
24 which is just two documents on, which starts with:

25 "The following is an outline of the
information required."
26
27 268 Q. This is obviously a part of a letter?
28 A. Yes.
29 269 Q. Why have you left out the earlier part of the
37
1 letter?
2 A. On -- that is this letter here (INDICATING)?
3 270 Q. Yes?
4 A. No, that was the letter. My recollection and my
5 assumption at this stage, I think, is that this was
6 typed in my office in a way where the person typing
7 it wouldn't know what it was all about and that was
8 conveyed to Mr. Traynor to show the nature of the
9 information I required.
10 271 Q. However, this seems to me to be just part of a
11 letter:

information required"?
13
14 A. Yes .
15 272 Q. I am just wondering, there is no, "Dear
16 Mr. Traynor." There is no...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. No, that would have been specifically excluded as a
18 matter of the person typing the letter not knowing
19 what was happening.
20 273 Q. Is there any reason why the letter which you sent to
21 Mr. Traynor should not be made available to us?
22 A. Pardon?
23 274 Q. Is there any reason why the letter which you -- the
24 full letter which you...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. No, no. That is -- I think that is the full letter.
26 275 Q. The full letter?
27 A. I think that is the complete document.
28 276 Q. There would not have landed on Mr. Traynor's desk
29 a letter saying:
information required"?
2
3 A. No, no, but I had discussed it in...(INTERJECTION).
4 277 Q. It must have been as a result of discussion?
5 A. It was, yes.
6 278 Q. Yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 279 Q. Then you said:
9 "NOTE: ITEMS NO. 1, 3, 4 and 5 ARE

REQUIRED TODAY"?
10
11 A. Yes.
12 280 Q. This was sent on to him as a result of your
13 telephone conversation presumably, was that it?
14 A. No, I met Mr. Traynor.
15 281 Q. Yes?
16 A. And said I decided to, with Mr. McKeon, avail of the
17 amnesty and then we said we would contact him with
18 whatever information we needed to get.
19 282 Q. Yes?
20 A. And this was the information that we needed to get.
21 283 Q. Yes?
22 A. And required to...(INTERJECTION).
23 284 Q. You went with your accountant, did you?
24 A. Pardon?
25 285 Q. You went with your accountant to Mr. Traynor or did
26 you go by yourself?
27 A. No, I went with Mr. -- pardon me, I went with
28 Mr. McKeon and Mr. Bennett.
29 286 Q. Mr?
39
1 A. Mr. Bennett was a tax advisor, one I decided to use
2 the amnesty I decided to use Mr. Padraig Bennett,
3 who is a tax consultant.
4 287 Q. Was he different from the firm you just mentioned?
5 A. Yes. He is not part of Buckley Delaney. He was a
6 tax consultant.
7 288 Q. Right?
8 A. With SKC.
9 289 Q. With who?
10 A. SKC. Kennedy -- KPMG, is it? Yes, KPMG I think,
11 yes.
12 290 Q. When did you consult Mr. Bennett then?
13 A. Again, November/December, about this particular
14 matter.
15 291 Q. Was Mr. Bennett an accountant?
16 A. A tax consultant.
17 292 Q. A consultant?
18 A. Yes.
19 293 Q. Did you say Stokes Kennedy Crowley?
20 A. Yes, or — KPMG I think. Whatever they call
21 themselves.
22 294 Q. Whatever firm it was?
23 A. Yes.
24 295 Q. Yes. If you could just go back to these documents
25 that we were looking at (Exhibit 1)?
26 A. Yes.
27 296 Q. The one headed:
28 "Penta Investments Limited."
29
40
1 Then:
2 "Assets as at 5th April 1991."
4 Then:
5
"Assets as at 5th April 1992."
6
7 Then:
8 "Assets as at 5th April 1993."
10 That is what Mr. Traynor would have given you, is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 297 Q. Yes. There is a letter of the 7th January 1994?
14 A. Yes.
15 298 Q. In which Mr. Redmond was asked for cheques payable
16 to The Revenue Commissioners?
17 A. Yes.
18 299 Q. Do you know who signed this letter, it was 42
19 Fitzwilliam Square?
20 A. Yes.
21 300 Q. Who signed this letter?
22 A. Sean McKeon.
23 301 Q. Sean McKeon. Was that on your behalf or on behalf
24 of himself?
25 A. Both.
26 302 Q. Both?
27 A. Yes.
28 303 Q. What was 42 Fitzwilliam Square? What were those
29 offices?
41
1 A. That was Des Traynor's office.
2 304 Q. Des Traynor's office?
3 A. Yes.
4 305 Q. It was Mr. McKeon, your partner, that signed this
5 letter having -- presumably it had been typed up in
6 his office?
7 A. In Mr. Traynor's office I assume.
8 306 Q. Mr. Traynor's office, yes?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 307 Q. Mr. Kennedy, I propose, if it is all right with you,
11 to have a short adjournment now for a cup of coffee
12 for about ten minutes?
13 A. Yes.
14 308 Q. If you would like to stay here and you can have a
15 cup of coffee if you would like one and we will be
16 back in about ten minutes?
17 A. Okay.
18
20
21 309 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a few questions now
22 remaining. Mr. Kennedy,
23 could we go back to your letter, your statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 310 Q. Of the 15th March?
26 A. Yes.
27 311 Q. Do you see the last paragraph starting:
28 "The funds to be held on trust were I

believe assigned by me to a company
29 called Penta Investments Limited."
42
1
2 I think I asked you this before Mr. Kennedy, but
3 did you know whether the funds that you were giving
4 over were sent to Penta Investments direct or
5 whether they went to the Trustees?
6 A. No.
7 312 Q. You do not know?
8 A. I don't know.
9 313 Q. Could you just go down the paragraph a little bit
10 where you say:
11 "The actual transfer of funds was

made in about September 1986. Some
12 of the money was transferred to
Mr. Padraig Collery."
13
14 That is the incident you described earlier?
16 314 Q. Where you had cash and you gave it to Mr. Collery?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 315 Q.
"At the Bank of Ireland, College Green,
19 Dublin and the remainder was
transferred to the trust direct from
20 accounts with Guinness & Mahon"?
21
22 A. Yes.
23 316 Q. Did you have accounts in Guinness & Mahon?
24 A. Yes.
25 317 Q. Existing accounts?
26 A. Yes.
27 318 Q. These were then transferred you assume?
28 A. Yes, yes.
29 319 Q. To the trust or to Penta Investments, you do not
43
1 know which?
2 A. I don't know. I assume Penta.
3 320 Q. Yes. After you paid the arrears of tax, and you
4 disclosed to The Revenue the interest on the
5 deposits which you should have disclosed and you
6 did not, you had not done, did you use the funds
7 which you had? Did you use "Ansbacher" in any way,
8 or Guinness & Mahon in any way, in relation to
9 the funds that you had then?
10 A. At the time of the amnesty?
11 321 Q. Yes?
12 A. No. I didn't recall until I went to look at the
13 papers recently that it was through the IIB, The
14 Intercontinental Bank, that the funds were drawn
15 down from.
16 322 Q. No. However, I am just...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. Sorry.
18 323 Q. Mr. Clarke is right. I am not concerned, we are not
19 concerned, with your private tax affairs?
20 A. No.
21 324 Q. However, it is only in respect of your dealings with
22 the company, with "Ansbacher"?
23 A. Yes .
24 325 Q. What I want to know is, after 1993 had you any
25 further dealings with "Ansbacher"?
26 A. None at all.
27 326 Q. None at all?
28 A. No.
29 327 Q. We would require, if it is possible to obtain it,

1 the Deed of Trust and the Letter Of Wishes. I
2 understand from what you have said in your
3 statement, and what you have told us, that
4 these were destroyed?
5 A. Yes.
6 328 Q. However, the original should be with "Ansbacher" in
8 A. Yes.
9 329 Q. I wonder could we ask you to write to "Ansbacher" to
10 produce these documents?
11 A. Could I just say that my solicitor did the
12 correspondence with those banks.
13 330 Q. Yes?
14 A. May I ask my solicitor to fill you in.
15 331 Q. Yes, of course, yes.
16 MR. CLARKE: We did, in fact — well,
17 Sir, I should say that we
18 had hoped that we would be able to obtain this
19 material from Guinness & Mahon, as I think we wrote
20 to the Inspectors initially, and had understood
21 that, in fact, they would have such information.
22 They recently told us that they were mistaken, that
23 they do not have such information.
24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.
25 MR. CLARKE: We have recently written,
26 by "recently" I mean about
27 a week ago, in the light of that information from
28 Guinness & Mahon, to "Ansbacher" to ask them
29 particularly for information about Penta. We have
45
1 not yet received any information back.
3 MR. CLARKE: I do not -- of course, we
4 can write specifically
5 asking for the Trust Deed.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I want you specifically to
7 write for the Trust Deed.
8 MR. CLARKE: Yes.
9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And the Letter Of
10 Wishes.
11 MR. CLARKE: And the Letter Of Wishes.
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then.
13 MR. CLARKE: Yes.
14
15 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. JOHN KENNEDY BY
16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
17
18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you. Very well.
19 Mr. Kennedy, thank you for
20 your attendance. We will ask you it to come in to
21 sign the transcript when it has been typed up?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you.
24 MR. CLARKE: Thank you.
25 A. Thank you.
26 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much.
28
29
46
SovLcxVvar
Slooo
Appendix XV (61) (l)(b)
73 Merrion Village
Dublin 4
Office of the Inspectors appointed by

Order of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd
3rd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin
15 March 2000
Private & Confidential
Dear Sir
I refer toyour letter to me dated 20 January 2000 and to subsequent correspondence between you
and my solicitors.
As my solicitors have informed you on my behalf, I did arrange for the establishment of a trust
of a kind which I believe probably corresponded to the description at point (1) of appendix C
attached to your letter. As they have also explained, I now have practically no records relating
to the trust and although, as I explain below, I have sought materialfrom two banks who may
have such records, I have not yet received any. Without being able to refer tosuch material, I am
not able to recall specific details as to the arrangements put in place, but I understand that the
Inspectors would like to have a written statement at this stage of matters which I do remember.
To the best of my knowledge and recollection I established the trust in about September 1986
following discussions with the late Mr Desmond Traynor when Mr Traynor told me that interest
on funds in such a trust would not be liable to Irish tax. As far as I can recall my understanding
was that the trust was to be established in the Cayman Islands but that the money would be held
in Ireland with "matching funds" held off-shore. I was introducedtoMr Traynor by Guinness
& Mahon and probably by Mr Maurice O'Kelly who had previously worked with that bank. At
the time Guinness & Mahon held money on deposit for companies associated with me. Such
companies had also previously acquired two propertiesfrom the bank. Mr O'Kelly was the
senior person with whom I would normally have dealt.
The funds to be held on trust were I believe assigned by me to a company called Penta
Investments Limited, incorporated in the Cayman Islands. At about the same time I recall
signing a form of deed of trust and a letter of wishes addressed to the trustees. I assume that the
company was established and those documents were prepared by Guinness & Mahon or Mr
Traynor, because I did not personally arrange these things or arrange for any other professional
adviser to cany them out. The actual transfer of funds was made in about September 1986; some
of the money was transferred to Mr Padraig Colliery (who I understood to be acting for Guinness
& Mahon and Mr Traynor) at the Bank of Ireland, College Green, Dublin and the remainder was
transferred to the trust directfrom accounts with Guinness & Mahon. I do not believe that I ever
subsequently transferred further funds to the company or the trust (or to any other company or
trust associated with Mr Traynor or with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited). Prior to repayment of
these funds to me (in the circumstances described below), I do not believe that I ever received
any money in respect of the funds from Guinness & Mahon, Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited or Mr
Traynor.
From time to time I received statements of the amounts held in the trust; these were infrequent.
The statements were arranged by or through Mr. Traynor. I was askedfrom time to time in what
currency I wished to have the funds or parts of the funds denominated and I chose currencies
from time to time as I thought these most profitable (although I do not know whether any funds
of mine were ever actually converted). So far as I can recall the only persons to whom I would
have spoken about this were Mr O' Kelly, Mr Traynor or, possibly, Mr Traynor's secretary, Joan
Williams. These communications were all verbal.
In about 19901 discussed arrangements under which AIB, who wore bankers to various property
development companies in which I was involved, would advance money for the purchase and
development of development land on the security of a guarantee to be given by Guinness &
Mahon which might be partly secured by funds in Penta Investments Limited. The purchase and
development of the lands proceeded but I do not recall whether these particular security
arrangements were proceeded with. As already mentioned I am awaiting information from AIB
as to whether such arrangements were ever entered into.
In 19931 availed of the Waiver of Certain Tax, Interest and Penalties Act 1993 to declare to the
Irish Revenue the amount of tax, calculated as provided for by that Act, which were owed in
respect of the funds in the trust. With the.assistance of my accountant Mr Dan Delaney of
Buckley Delaney & Co (who had not been involved in establishing the fund or the trust), I
calculated the amount of the fund and the interest which had been earned upon it For this
purpose I wrote to Mr Traynor, who arranged for some details of the sums involved to be
provided. I do not recall any direct contact with Mr John Furze (whose name appears on one of
the documents attached) in relation to this information or at any other time, although I believe
I may have met him once with Mr Traynor in Mr Traynor's office around the time of
establishment of the trust in 1986. A substantial part of the funds were payable by way of tax
either by me or by companies associated with me and I arranged with Mr Traynor for the re-
payment of all of tiiefunds. I do not recall the details of these instructions, but I believe that the
payments were made by Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited, partly in the form of cheques made
payable to the Revenue Commissioners.
Shortly after having made the appropriate payments to the Revenue and having received their
receipt (and I believe not later than the end of January 1994), I arranged for such limited
materials as I had at the time relating to the fund, the trust or Penta Investments Limited (other
than papers produced in the calculation of the amount due to the Revenue Commissioners) to be
destroyed - my recollection is that other than the Amnesty working papers the only other
materials which I would have had at the time were the trust deed, the letter of wishes and
possibly some copies of previous statements received from Mr Traynor. Having paid the taxes
due under and in accordance with the Amnesty and having re-established the balance elsewhere,
there was no point in preserving any of the materials other than those which were relevant to the
calculation of tax payable under the Amnesty.
In the papers produced in the calculation of tax due there are working papers prepared by Mr
Delaney, a shortfinancial statement of eight lines headed 'Investment in Global Fund' apparently
showing values as at 30 September 1993 of Penta' and 'Tara'. There are also similar statements
headed 'exchange position' stating what were said to be 'overall realised gain(s)' as of 1
September 1993; thefinal pagefrom what appears to be a letterfrom Mr Furze dated 6 December
1993 which shows 'the split' of what appears to be earned interest for the year ending 30
September 1991 and the two years ending 30 September 1'993 and a page setting out what
appeared to have been regarded as the assets of Penta Investments Limited as of 5 April in each
of 1991,1992 and 1993. There is also a copy of a list of questions which I sent to Mr Traynor
at the time when the amounts due under the Amnesty were being calculated, seeking information
as to sums involved. I attach a copy of these papers (other than the working papers) on which I
have covered up the amounts of money involved as invited by your letter of 20 January.
The 'Tara' referred to above is I believe a company established on the instructions of my former
partner Se&n McKeon with whom I believe the Inspectors have been in communication and who
I believe established a fund of a similar kind to that established by me. I also have copy of a
letter dated 7 January 1994 written by Mr McKeon to Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited from
which I have derived the information which I have given as to thefinal repayment of the fund.
I am enclosing a copy of this letter also and have notified Mr. McKeon that I am so doing.
Having regard to what is said in your letter, my solicitors have on my instructions written to both
Guinness & Mahon and to AIB to ask them for copy of any material which they have relating to
the fund established by me or the prospective guarantee respectively. I attach copies of my
solicitors' letters. My solicitors advise me that they have been informed by Guinness & Mahon
that Guinness & Mahon have record of having papers in connection with Penta Investments
Limited, but these papers have not yet been produced to me.
Signed
atSOH\KOMCDY\STATO].WPD
Investment in Global Fund
PENTA 3o , . X£ >
37466 Per Balance Sheet
Less Discount
Net Cost
TARA 30. 7* T* *
46324 Per Balance Sheet
Less Discount
Net Cost
r
Exchange P o a i t i o n
PENTA
30/9/91 9
30/9/93
L«as:
Loss '90
A n l a f D«nfMKtt«i IfiOl CV/T 0 . ...
fU Oil /^fcs-
(sr
"On the basis of thesefigures, the split is as Mows: p&i 'têtr
Year to 30-09-91
J* year to 03-04-91
Vi year to 30-09-91
Two years to 30-09-93 & r- v •

V4 year to 05-04-92 — - W
V4 yearto30-09-02 I
V4 year to 05-04-93 ?*7
V4 year to 30-09-93
12/01/93 18:0* TT809 949 9267 C.I.B.T.C.
PENTA INVESTMENTS LIMITED
AmfiamarnAiBttlttl
j
snrumtia £ v/
DHtrrscHMAR&a dmk- ^
t
U.S. D O L L A R S USD., ^
yrwat.TNG £
DMK. /
lAyys
USD ' /
US. .DOLLARS
j
inSflAgriB 199ft i
STBRT..MI fc
flgflTSCKMAMtt DMK.'
U.S, D O L L A R S USD 1
Cayman International Bank and Trust Company Limited
P.O. Box 837, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands. British West lndi«
flease reply to: • Telephone (309)949-8655 Telex CP 4305
42 Fitzwilliam Square, FaerimUe (809) 949-7946
Dublin 2.
Tel: 6765144/676 3065 ffonngty Ansbacher Tirnrt^)
Fax: 6612035
17th
Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Further to our letter of yesterday's date in connection with the
US Dollars and DeutscheMarks which you are holding on deposit
under reference B/P and B/Q, could you please arrange value 29th
June to transfer principal and interest in each case to:
Bank of Ireland, International Dept., Head Office,
Lower Baggot Street, Dublin 2,
for the following Accounts: ^
trr Y i V * ^
J'i^t
DMs in Account Ref. B/P to DEM Account No.31525301 v » 1 ..
US$ in Account Ref. B/P to US$ Account No.31525300 ^ ^
0&VZO
DMs in Account Ref. B/Q to DEM Account No.31526301
US$ in Account Ref. B/Q to US$ Account No.31 526300
J It would be appreciated if you could advise the exact amounts

being transferred so that we can in turn advise Bank of Ireland.
Could you also please arrange value 29th June to transfer two
amounts of Sterling as follows, debiting both sums to our No.1
Account No.02/01087/81 . These should also go to Bank of Ireland.
Stg.£500,000 to GB£ Account No.31525302 _ ft*8 CA
Stg.£375,000 to GB£ Account No.31526302 $ VC?
Please advise if you have any problj s or if anything is not clear.
Yours sincerely,
Fdfe CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST CO. LTD.

d/V
Guernsey - Monaco - Zurich - Nassau - Cayman - BVI
Appendix XV (61) (l){d)
SlAI&MfcJM) CAYHAN HTERNATIOML BANK I HUSH INTERCONTINENTAL BAN
TRUST COHPANY LldlTgJ 91 Motion Square
C/O CWPiifiATc SERVICES Doblin 2.
ATTN Hti it rtEU«0'»l» T«l«phone: (QU64I97JJ
T«l«»: 33322
A/CJ 02/01037/dl Facsmik: 101)6711074
GbP
JE? <1 tic* NUN S£S ARCHIVE CCPY •• "txtowntdati.
0oCCT9*
PAtiE NU: 000
VAUM . OCT CMOIT BAkAJtCI
DATI OCTAU OATI
j.. JUL 9 3 drtCJGHT FCRrfASO 6,75?,6C

RE IT 1J1»10 4JTHDRAVAI. VAL .3«JUN93' 375,300.9u
.2»Cp9J j
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FA (71. 6 0*742 02JOU3 «»4.o7! 5,272,6a;
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DT 131'e.l L3C<jEI£:'T C7JwL>I ••23.se |
3T 1319o4 Lua^rtSbT 37JJLV3' l,.01..3l
UT 121902 LuOjEntr.T 37JJL»3* 353.o3
DT 131V63 L-0»E*S»T 07J-L93 7CC.71j
CT 131*o0 .ITrtCnA.Au 0 7JuLt3 2,038.21 I
frT 131959 LuSfaE-lEltT 07JuLv3' 24,500.JO!
ftg «T UlitaS L0-6t"t«T 07Jul>3; 1,401.43!
HE *T IaIVoo t O u C e T 37JJLV3 > 2,102.14| 5,8H?,779
laJuL93 WlTnbnA.AL J* li222o 0oJuL»3i 4,5*5.44
WITrCHAxAL i»T 1.12i27 OdJut.93 4,S*5.i5
wT 1322-4 .iTnaf.A.Ak |0oJ.JI.93 *>77.S7
FA C/f. ooaZU OoJlaLvS 5,*78,793
«*JuL93'fx cM oo321» iUV.Jul.v3 331,53:.10 5,5*7,234
ujul-JJ:«c -T 132 ils .ITrfjS A«AL IliJ-L»3 t,JwO.OO 5,546.23*
-JJoUJJ;Ac wT 132419 L0u66"chr 13JOLV3 2,000.10
Ift jT 132 <17 *I Imi/SAWAL lSJ-L'JZ <0,936.00 5,528,ia*
RE JT ooJTsl TRA>.3?ic 1VJULV3 4,424.47
FA C/H tsSf.1 19JJLV3- 4,6o0.0u 9,527,9*9
SjJU.93 Fx t/r. asS7sS ZOJuLvJ 14,330.99
Pi. -T 13233* LOuSl-tNT 2uJuLV3• 75,u0(i.U0 S.617,408.
42JUU93' uT 1325-S «ITiiC«A.Au 22JUL43 1,517.07 5,415,971.
2JJUL«I CT 132Ji>« .ITMOkA.AL 23JUL93; 24,000.0.
OT 1325ol . ITrtDrfAkAS. 2iJjL93 I,0b0.0a
FA C/l. toolJS 25JuLv3 945.36 5, 59C,t26i
3UJUL93 Fx C/N
C/f.ftaan-en
fitI, JujulvS 11.714.^4 5/603, 7*IQI
< tni ivmr or ournn iuam w*ti OVmOHAWN MLANCn AM MAI
Mam mm Am wrtln lining r
9 OUH MTHNAI. AUDIT OIPAATMIMT. »> »in <nl» 4m —I in — on
CAY.-A:. INTEHKATIONAI. SA.N*. »

T.iOaT CuePAHY LlnlTt->
C/V CuRiH-nATE StPVlLsa
td. N0.40837IVX
Appendix XV (62) Dr Colm Killeen
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Dr
Colm Killeen.
a) Transcript of evidence of Dr Colm Killeen dated 15 February 2000.
b) Cheque dated March 1991 - IIB payable to CMT Killeen.
c) Letter of 28 February 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
d) Letter of 10 June 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
e) Letter of 8 June 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
f) Letter of 11 June 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
g) Letter of 26 June 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.
h) Letter of 12 November 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.
i) Letter of 10 June 1991 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.
j) Letter of 5 July 1993 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.
k) Letter of 22 May 1990 - JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Dr Colm Killeen.
a) Letter of 20 December 2001 - Eugene F Collins to the Inspectors.

S
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF DR. COLM KILLEEN
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 15TH FEBRUARY 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: DR. COLM KILLEEN
Accompanied by: Mr. T. Leggett
Eugene F. Collins
Temple Chambers
3 Burlington Road
Dublin 4
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGES
DR. T.C. KILLEEN MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 4-5
MS. MACKEY 5-29
MR. ROWAN 30-35
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 36 - 38

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 15TH FEBRUARY 2000
4 DR. COLM KILLEEN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED,
5 AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
7 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Dr. Killeen, we have
8 received this morning from
9 your solicitor, Mr. Leggett, a preliminary
10 statement, which we understand that you wish to make
11 to us?
12 A. Yes.
13 2 Q. We accept that. It is unnecessary for you to read
14 it, we will accept this as your preliminary
15 statement and we will put it into the record of this
16 interview?
17 A. Very well.
18 3 Q. If you would like to sign it.
19 A. Yes.
20 "Preliminary Statement by Dr. T.C.

Killeen to the Joint Inspectors
21 Investigating Ansbacher (Cayman)
Limited.
22
I wish to state at the outset of this
23 interview that my presence here is at
your direction, acting as you are under
24 the powers conferred upon you by the
Companies Act 1990 and by the Court. I
25 have not come to this interview
voluntarily and any statements or
26 confessions are made under the
compulsion of my involuntary attendance
27 here. Having said that, it is my
desire and indeed obligation to
28 co-operate fully with the investigation
and I shall answer your questions as
29 completely and truthfully as I am
able."
4
1
2 4 Q. Doctor, I am going to ask Ms. Mackey to ask you some
3 questions first?
4 A. Yes .
c
3
END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MR. JUSTICE
6
7 COSTELLO
o
o
9 DR. KILLEEN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY
10
11 5 Q. MR. MACKEY: Doctor, I wonder if you
12 would tell us first a
13 little bit about yourself and your qualifications.
14 First of all, your full name is ...(INTERJECTION).
15 A. Thomas Columbia Killeen.
16 6 Q. You are a medical doctor?
17 A. Yes, I am.
18 7 Q. Are you a general practitioner?
19 A. A family practitioner, yes.
20 8 Q. You are in practice at present?
21 A. I am in practice at present. I have been in
22 practice in Dubin since 1st March 1955. At the
23 moment I am practising in 14 Mountjoy Square. We
24 did have a surgery in 67A Mountjoy Square and we had
25 a disastrous fire about two years ago.
26 9 Q. Can you tell us when you first came in contact with
27 Ansbacher Cayman and how that came about?
28 A. That is a difficult one now. The first I knew of
29 the word "Ansbacher" was about two to three years

1 before Des Traynor died, and he wrote to me to say
2 that he was resigning from his chairmanship and that
3 Ansbacher would be taken over. To be truthful in
4 illo tempore, I thought Ansbacher was a man, because
5 I never heard the name mentioned before that.
6 10 Q. Perhaps I could ask you what your contact with
7 Mr. Traynor? You knew Mr. Traynor then for some
8 time prior to that?
9 A. Yes, I did. It is a slightly involved item. I
10 first met Mr. Traynor circa 1957, in Frank Glennon
11 Glennon's office on the Quays. Frank Glennon &
12 Company were my insurance people at that time. I
13 remember going into the Glennon office which was on
14 the Quays at that time. The man I dealt with was a
15 very one of nature's gentlemen, a man called Gerry
16 Glynn, who died -- oh, he died shortly after that.
17 But, he introduced me to Des Traynor because Des was
18 their accountant at that time. Des set up a
19 separate arrangement for us because even though we
20 were ...(INTERJECTION).
21 11 Q. Sorry, I don't want to cut across you, but I would
22 just like to take this in stages. He set up this
23 arrangement for ...(INTERJECTION).
24 A. He asked me to visit him in Haughey Boland's offices
25 in Amien Street.
26 12 Q. What caused him to ask you to visit him? Had you
27 spoken ...(INTERJECTION).
28 A. I had no accountant and Mr. Glennon suggested that I
29 should do this. When we were turned out of
6
1 University College in 1951, with a degree of
2 medicine under my arm, I knew all about medicine, I
3 knew nothing about anything else, and we had no
4 accountant that time and Mr. Glennon suggested I
5 should have one and he suggested Mr. Traynor.
6 13 Q. When you say "we"?
7 A. My wife and myself were in practice together.
8 14 Q. You were in practice together?
9 A. Yes .
10 15 Q. Your wife is Dr. Ita Killeen?
11 A. Ita Killeen, yes. I visited Mr. Traynor in his
12 office in Amien Street and he set up this simple
13 method of keeping books, which we still use to the
14 present day. There were three columns on the sheet,
15 fees earned, fees not banked and fees banked. A
16 simple arrangement. Then, maybe once or twice, I
17 would have seen him up to about 1962/63/64, around
18 that time. Then I lost contact with him, until we
19 moved house -- I used to live in St. Lawrence Road
20 in illo tempore then we moved house to a house in
21 Howth Road called 'Belvedere', which was next door
22 to Des Traynor.
24 A. 1977, May/June 1977. We bought the house in 1976,
25 but we weren't allowed to move into it. The
26 contract stated at that time it wouldn't be
27 completed for six months. Why, I don't know. But
28 we moved then in the middle of 1977. My wife used
29 to do a lot of domiciliary midwifery and one of

1 the things that she used to do, herself and a
2 midwife, ran a nursing home on the Howth Road. She
3 used to do a lot of charity work,
4 particularly for the famous Father Cleary, and he
5 used to have a whole lot of these poor unfortunate
6 girls that he used to collect and she used to
7 deliver them in St. Anthony's Nursing Home in Howth
8 Road. One of these girls wanted to keep the baby
9 and we were short a domestic at the time, so we
10 offered to take this girl and the child, which we
11 did. As time went on, Des Traynor had a young son
12 who was a similar age to this youngster that we were
13 looking after and they used to go in next door, and
14 one Sunday they were in next door and they were
15 blowing into Des Traynor's dogs' eyes and one of
16 them bit this youngster. This would be about 1982
17 or 1983. Mr. Traynor came in and was very upset
18 about this and we arranged for the child to be taken
19 to Temple Street and stitched. I had decided not to
20 deal with it myself, personally, because of the
21 ...(INTERJECTION).
22 17 Q. Sorry, not to cut across you, Dr. Killeen, but what
23 I am really trying to establish here is when you
24 first entered into some sort of commercial
25 relationship ...(INTERJECTION).
26 A. That is what I am coming to. Mr. Traynor used to
27 come in once or twice and he said, "Come in and we
28 will talk." So I went into his home a short time
29 after this incident and he brought me into the study
8
1 and we decided to start talking about money matters,
2 because I had originally known that he was the
3 Manager of Guinness & Mahon.
4 18 Q. Did you at that stage wish to make some sort of
5 financial arrangement about your own affairs?
6 A. It kind of developed into that, insofar as that I
7 knew he was involved as a Manager of Guinness &
8 Mahon and I also was informed, as well, at a dinner
9 one evening, on a totally different thing, that
10 merchant banks pay better interest than ordinary
11 banks.
12 19 Q. So you mentioned to him that you were interested in
13 some sort of?
14 A. Yes, we discussed who my bank was, which was the
15 Bank of Ireland on O'Connell Street. I have been
16 there since 1955, still am. He mentioned that
17 Guinness & Mahon, being a merchant bank, they have
18 higher interest. So I started to pass some money
19 over to Des Traynor.
20 20 Q. Let's get this clear now. Did he suggest you open
21 an account in Guinness & Mahon?
22 A. Yes .
23 21 Q. In the bank itself?
24 A. Yes .
25 22 Q. So you opened what, a deposit account in Guinness &
26 Mahon?
27 A. Yes .
28 23 Q. You went into Guinness & Mahon, did you, and sign
1 A. No, I never -- I may have stood in the bank once.
2 24 Q. How did you open this account?
3 A. He did it in his study next door. He was my next
4 door neighbour.
5 25 Q. Yes, I understand that.
6 A. We are "132", he was "134".
7 26 Q. I understand that. What happened in his study?
8 A. I used to give him -- it would be mostly cheques and
9 some cash.
10 27 Q. Just to get this clear. When you opened the account
11 for the first time, what happened, you handed him
12 money?
13 A. That's right.
14 28 Q. But you didn't sign any documents?
15 A. I honestly cannot remember. Maybe I did now, I do
16 not remember. All I will say is that working in
17 Mountjoy Square, it was a working class practice.
18 At that time we didn't deal with much cash. So,
19 everything that I gave Des Traynor, it was in the
20 thing "fees earned" and "not banked". What was not
21 banked, some of that was around the house and the
22 other was given to Des Traynor. In point of fact,
23 our accountants used to say to me, "You have
24 terrible drawings? You have drawn enormous amounts
25 of money? What are you doing with it?" I said, "I
26 am spending it." More than once they used to say
27 this to me, "You have drawn an enormous amount of
28 money ..." (INTERJECTION).
29 29 Q. Doctor, this is not really clear to me yet. You

1 opened an account with Des Traynor in his house?
2 A. That is right.
3 30 Q. Did he tell you this account was in Guinness & Mahon
4 Bank or it was somewhere else? What was your
5 understanding of where your money was?
6 A. Guinness & Mahon.
7 31 Q. Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
8 A. Yes .
9 32 Q. Did you receive statements from Guinness & Mahon
10 after that?
11 A. I did, but there were always strips. There was
12 nothing written on the top of them and there were
13 just amounts.
14 33 Q. How did they arrive to you?
15 A. He used to drop them into the letter box.
16 34 Q. Did you ever ask him why the name of Guinness &
17 Mahon was not written on these?
18 A. No, I never did.
19 35 Q. Why was that?
20 A. Is was the fact he was my next door neighbour, my
21 friend. You don't sort of argue when you could see
22 some interest coming up.
23 36 Q. Yes. Did he explain to you that you would get a
24 higher rate of interest with Guinness & Mahon?
25 A. Than ordinary banks.
26 37 Q. Than ordinary banks?
27 A. Yes .
28 MR. LEGGETT: Sorry, Ms. Mackey, if I
29 could just mention one

1 thing, it may be of assistance. I have some
2 documentation here that has only recently become
3 available, included with which are the statements,
4 or at least some of the statements supplied by
5 Mr. Traynor to Dr. Killeen.
6 MR. MACKEY: Do you have copies of
7 those?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you could hand them in.
10 A. Yes, certainly. If I could just clarify. I have
11 three different types of documents here and I have
12 identified them. One are the copy statements that
13 Dr. Killeen has been able to unearth, as provided to
14 him by Des Traynor. You will see, as you go through
15 those, there is a reference to Guinness & Mahon at
16 the bottom. I am afraid that is misleading. It is
17 a superimposition of a compliment slip. It is not
18 actually a name appearing on the statement itself.
19 I have another set of statements which Dr. Killeen
20 was able to source through Padraig Collery who took
21 over the responsibility for his account, following
22 an interview we had with the legal team for the
23 Moriarty Tribunal, and I have handed those in.
24 Lastly, I have copies of expenditure documentation
25 which vouch the usage the usage of some of that
26 money, but I have to say it has not been cross
27 referenced, on aircraft which Dr. Killeen has
28 maintained over the years, planes.
29 38 Q. MS. MACKEY: Very good. Dr. Killeen,
12
1 you received these
2 statements from time to time from Mr. Traynor?
3 A. Yes .
4 39 Q. How often would you receive these?
5 A. Probably every three months. Maybe it might run six
6 months. But they were always slips, nothing on the
7 top of them.
8 40 Q. But they showed interest that was accrued?
9 A. That's right.
10 41 Q. From time to time then you passed a cheque or cash
11 to Mr. Traynor?
13 42 Q. He looked after it for you?
15 43 Q. And that would be reflected on these statements?
16 A. It would, yes.
17 44 Q. Now, at what stage did you become aware that money
18 was not in Guinness & Mahon but was somewhere else,
19 or did you become aware of that?
20 A. I remember there was an article in the paper one
21 time where the famous Gay Byrne had money with an
22 accountant and he did away with it and I began to
23 ask questions after that.
24 45 Q. Now we are going back now to the 1980's?
25 A. That probably would be sometime towards the end of
26 1988/89, around that time.
27 46 Q. You asked questions of whom?
28 A. I asked Mr. Traynor. I said, "Where is all this
29 money?"
1 47 Q. What did he say to you?
2 A. He said, "It is in the Cayman." Now, this bothered
3 me. We have a banker friend who lives in America
4 and I spoke to this gentlemen about the situation.
5 He said to me, "I will come back to you." He came
6 back to me after two months and he said, "You have
7 no money in the Cayman Islands." This bothered me.
8 Then I said to Des -- this would be probably about
9 another six or eight or ten months after that. I
10 said, "Des, where is all this damn money?" Because
11 I had occasion to get a cheque for some repairs to
12 my aircraft and it was a Sterling cheque. He said,
13 "Your money is in England."
14 48 Q. He told you your money was in England?
15 A. Yes. That is all I can tell you then, until I got a
16 letter to say that he was retiring as Chairman, or
17 looking after the money, and Ansbacher, which I now
18 know, was an account. That is the first I ever
19 heard of Ansbacher.
20 49 Q. That was in 19 ... ?
21 A. That would be about two to three years before he
22 died.
23 50 Q. So about 1991?
24 A. Yes, about that, 1991, 1992. He also informed me at
25 that time that he could take no more money from me.
26 51 Q. That he could take no more money?
27 A. No more money.
28 52 Q. What did you do upon receipt of that letter? What
29 steps did you take?

1 A. Nothing really. When I heard that the money was in
2 England, I wasn't too perturbed. Anyway, any time I
3 asked for a cheque to get the repairs done, if they
4 were large sums, I gave him two to three days notice
5 and a cheque would be organised for me, with the
6 Sterling.
7 53 Q. Who would you ask once he had retired?
8 A. I asked Des.
9 54 Q. He still gave you any money that you required out of
10 the fund?
11 A. Yes, at that time.
12 55 Q. When you say "at that time", after his retirement?
13 A. That would have been after I became aware, like when
14 he said Ansbacher, which I thought was a man,
15 actually. He told me that this Ansbacher thing was
16 being taken over and that was it, but I never dealt
17 with Ansbacher, whoever it was, I always spoke to
18 Des next door.
19 56 Q. How long after that did you continue to receive
20 payments out from Ansbacher? Did it go on up to the
21 time of Mr. Traynor's death?
22 A. Oh, it did and after as well.
23 57 Q. Up to the time of his death he continued to be able
24 to provide it?
25 A. Yes .
26 58 Q. Even though he had retired?
27 A. I used to get whatever cheque I needed.
28 59 Q. From him?
29 A. Yes .
1 60 Q. Did he make clear to you in his letter saying that
2 he was retiring that he would be able to continue to
3 draw money?
4 A. No, he made it clear that he was retiring from the
5 business he ran and I understood really that he had
6 packed in in Guinness & Mahon. That is what I
7 understood. But, up to the time of his death I used
8 to deal with him if I needed a cheque for --
9 practically all that money went on looking after our
10 aircraft.
11 61 Q. But you could not lodge anymore money?
12 A. No.
13 62 Q. After his death, what happened then?
14 A. Then I was introduced to Padraig Collery.
15 63 Q. Who introduced you to Mr. Collery?
16 A. Padraig Collery -- well, I know Padraig Collery
17 called to my home.
19 A. As far as I remember, and he said ...(INTERJECTION).
20 65 Q. Sorry, when did this happen?
21 A. This would be about two, three, four days after Des
22 died.
23 66 Q. He called to your house?
24 A. To your home, yes.
25 67 Q. Had you ever met him at that stage?
26 A. I am nearly sure. Did I meet him in Traynors? I
27 cannot remember now, but I know that this man
28 introduced himself. I also met another man called
29 John Furze in Traynors about two to three days after
16
1 Mr. Traynor's death.
2 68 Q. In Mr. Traynor's house?
3 A. In Mr. Traynor's house. I have an idea that maybe I
4 met Padraig Collery there, but it was intimated to
5 me that Padraig Collery was the man that would be
6 dealing with this after that.
7 69 Q. Then he called to your house?
8 A. I think he called to my house, as well, too. When
9 things began to go on and all this thing kind of
10 came to the fore, I spoke to Mr. Collery and said,
11 "Listen, I want to finalise all this sort of thing
12 and how much money do I have?"
13 70 Q. Before we get on to that point, can we go back to
14 just after Mr. Traynor's death?
15 A. Yes .
16 71 Q. Padraig Collery intimated to you, whether he came to
17 you or you met him in Mr. Traynor's house, he
18 intimated to you that he was now the person dealing
19 with it?
21 72 Q. Did you deal with him then for sometime afterwards?
22 A. Yes. There was another man involved, as well, too.
23 If I needed a cheque, I was asked to contact him for
24 it.
25 73 Q. Who was he?
26 A. A man called Corbett.
27 74 Q. Sam Field-Corbett ?
28 A. Sam Field-Corbett.
29 75 Q. Who told you to contact him?

1 A. I have an idea that either Mr. Corbett rang me or
2 else Padraig Collery told me. I am a bit hazy about
3 that, actually.
4 76 Q. Did you, in fact, deal with Mr. Corbett as well as
5 Mr. Collery?
6 A. I did, yes. If I needed a cheque, I either rang one
7 or the other of them. As far as I remember, it was
8 Mr. Field-Corbett that used to -- I only had
9 communications with him maybe twice, or three times
10 at the very, very most. He would arrange to have a
11 cheque delivered to me or I would pick up a cheque.
12 77 Q. Where would you pick up that cheque if you wanted
13 it?
14 A. I think it was in a block of -- it was like an
15 apartment block, a small apartment block in Wine
16 Tavern Street.
17 78 Q. Would it be Mr. Field-Corbett's office in Wine
18 Tavern Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 79 Q. When would you receive it, would it always be a
21 cheque or would you at times receive it in cash?
22 A. It was always a cheque, yes, never cash, no. It was
23 always a Sterling cheque.
24 80 Q. After Mr. Traynor's death were you able to lodge
25 anymore money?
26 A. No.
27 81 Q. All the lodgements stopped three years before his
28 death?
29 A. Yes. The lodgement of money stopped two to three
18
1 years before Mr. Traynor died.
2 82 Q. Can I ask you, in relation to the money that you
3 would lodge, was this declared income?
4 A. The money that was given to Mr. Traynor came out of
5 the practice and it was in the section "not lodged".
6 83 Q. Was it declared income?
7 A. Oh, yes, yes. As I told you, when Mr. Traynor
8 originally set up this there were three columns,
9 fees earned, not lodged and lodged, and all that
10 money was declared income.
11 84 Q. Very good.
12 A. As I mentioned to you, my accountants were always
13 saying, "What are you doing with the money you are
14 taking out?"
15 85 Q. In relation then to the interest that accrued on the
16 deposit, was that declared?
17 A. No, no. Originally, I always that in a merchant
18 bank, that Guinness & Mahon dealt with the interest
19 situation as regards tax. Unfortunately, I found
20 out when Mr. Traynor told me that the money was in
21 the Cayman. At that stage I came to know that this
22 really wasn't strictly legal, but I didn't tell my
23 accountants about it.
24 86 Q. You didn't tell your accountants?
25 A. No, I didn't know what to do with it, really, so I
26 decided to keep my month shut.
27 87 Q. Who were your accountants during all this time? It
28 was no longer Mr. Traynor?
29 A. No, it was Haughey Boland originally and then they
19
1 merged with Howard and something, and then there was
2 another merging and they are now Deloitte & Touche.
3 88 Q. At the time you had this arrangement with
4 Mr. Traynor who was your accountant?
5 A. Well, it was Deloitte & Touche, well, Howards, etc,
6 but I never mentioned -- the first time I ever
7 mentioned this was after I asked Mr. Collery to
8 finalise the arrangements and he gave me a cheque.
9 I lodged that in Killester branch of the Bank of
10 Ireland, and then I informed the accountants that I
11 had this and, of course, they nearly went through
12 me.
13 89 Q. When you entered into the original relationship with
14 Mr. Traynor, thinking, you have told us, that that
15 was a deposit in Guinness & Mahon ...(INTERJECTION).
16 A. Yes .
17 90 Q. ... did your accountants know about it then?
18 A. No.
19 91 Q. You didn't tell your accountants?
20 A. No. The money had been declared for tax purposes.
21 When I took the money out it was my business,
22 really, because my tax had been paid on it. As I
23 told, we were a working class practice, very little
24 cash in illo tempore, and then from 1972 onwards
25 everything was Eastern Health Board and it was all
26 cheques that came in. So it had to be declared, we
27 had to declare it.
28 92 Q. These would be then your fees that were being
29 lodged?
1 A. That's right.
2 93 Q. Would they be also fees of your wife?
3 A. Yes.
4 94 Q. Was there any other monies other than your fees that
5 went into this account?
6 A. Well, there were all classes of fees. We would do
7 an examination with the Gardai, they would send me a
8 cheque ...(INTERJECTION).
9 95 Q. They were all fees, but apart from the
11 A. We would have medico-legal fees.
12 96 Q. Apart from medical fees, were there any other funds
13 going into it.
14 A. No, no, all medical work medically. There would be
15 some cash in, as well. Fees were very small in
16 those days, like a pound or two or three.
17 97 Q. Some of your fees would be in cash?
18 A. Yes.
19 98 Q. Can I ask you whether you availed of the 1993 tax
20 amnesty?
21 A. No, I didn't.
23 A. I should have, but I didn't.
24 100 Q. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Traynor the setting up
25 of a Trust?
26 A. No, and it was never discussed with me either, or
27 suggested.
28 101 Q. You did not do such a thing?
29 A. No.
21
1 102 Q. Your account was a deposit ...(INTERJECTION).
2 A. Even though we lived next door, we did not meet that
3 often.
4 103 Q. Yes, I understand. Do you accept, Dr. Killeen, that
5 you had an Ansbacher deposit?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 104 Q. You don't?
8 A. Well, I do, and you are right. That is strictly
9 incorrect now. Originally, I always thought that
10 was Guinness & Mahon and the first I heard about the
11 word, the name "Ansbacher" was about two to three
12 years before Des died.
13 105 Q. Let me put it another way. Do you accept that you
14 had money in an off-shore account?
15 A. I do now, but I did not know then.
16 106 Q. But you knew three years before he died?
17 A. I knew three years before he died that there was
18 definitely ...(INTERJECTION).
19 107 Q. You knew your money was not, at that stage, in
20 Ireland?
21 A. No, I always -- as I told you, when I met this
22 American banker and he informed me that I had no
23 money in the Cayman -- how he knew that, I don't
24 know. I suppose in the banking business. But, he
25 informed me that I had no money in the Cayman
26 Islands.
27 108 Q. I think you told us that Mr. Traynor told you at
28 that stage ...(INTERJECTION).
29 A. That's right.
22
1 109 Q. ... that the money was in Cayman?
2 A. That's right. Then, after the article on Gay Byrne
3 and his accountant, I started to ask questions.
4 But, before I asked him I had spoken to this banker
5 friend in the US and he told me that we had no money
6 in the Cayman Islands. When I asked Des then he
7 said, "Your money is in England."
8 110 Q. Do you now accept that your money was, in fact, in
9 an off-shore account?
10 A. Oh, yes, I accept that now, but I didn't know that
11 at that time.
12 111 Q. That is the account that is now known as Ansbacher?
13 A. Yes, but then I also have to correlate what my
14 American friend said to me. He said, "You have no
15 money in the Cayman Islands." So, if I had no money
16 in the Cayman Islands, ipso facto, anybody else,
17 they didn't have it in the Cayman Islands either.
18 112 Q. Yes. But, anyway, you now accept that that is the
19 case?
20 A. Oh, yes.
21 113 Q. I would just like to put a couple of documents to
22 you, just for the record, Dr. Killeen, that you
23 might identify them or give your views upon them?
25 114 Q. The first one I would like to put to you is a cheque
26 drawn on Irish Intercontinental Bank, to the value
27 of £16,000, payable to C.M.T. Killeen. Is that you,
28 Dr. Killeen Exhibit 1?
29 A. No.
23
1 115 Q. That is not you?
2 A. That is my son.
3 116 Q. That is your son?
4 A. Yes .
5 117 Q. Well, just holding onto that for a moment, can I
6 pass you a letter dated 28th February 1991 (same
7 handed) Exhibit 11.
8 A. Thank you.
9 118 Q. From Joan Williams. Did you ever meet Ms. Williams,
10 who was Mr. Traynor's secretary, Dr. Killeen?
11 A. Yes .
12 119 Q. You did meet her
13 A. I did, yes.
14 120 Q. This, as you can see, is a letter from her addressed
15 to the Irish Intercontinental Bank?
16 A. Right.
17 121 Q. Asking the bank to arrange to let her have for
18 collection an Irish pound draft for £16,000, payable
19 to C.M.T. Killeen, and that the Sterling cost was to
20 be debited to the Ansbacher Limited call account
21 0201087/81. That was the Ansbacher account
23 A. Yes, the cheque was inadvertently made out to my
24 son.
25 122 Q. But it should have been for, was it?
26 A. Yes, and I know what that cheque was. That cheque
27 was for an engine -- well, not a replacement but an
28 overhaul that was on an aircraft that I bought at
29 that time. That cheque, that is incorrect, it

1 should not have been made out to C.M.T. Killeen, it
2 should have been made out to T.C. Killeen.
3 123 Q. So this is and withdrawal from your account?
4 A. That is right, yes, but I never saw this letter or I
5 never heard of Ansbacher Limited, I think, at that
6 time.
7 124 Q. But you recognise the withdrawal?
8 A. Oh, yes, but as I said to you, pay to the order of
9 C.M.T. Killeen, that is incorrect, that should have
10 been me.
11 125 Q. That should have been you?
12 A. Yes .
13 126 Q. Now, can I pass you another letter dated 10th June
14 1992 (same handed) Exhibit 3?
15 A. Thank you.
16 127 Q. Again, it is a letter from Joan Williams asking the
17 bank, the IIB, to have available for collection a
18 cheque payable to C. Killeen for £4,600?
20 128 Q. Do you recognise that as another withdrawal?
21 A. That is correct, yes.
22 129 Q. Very good.
23 A. But I do not recognise, I never knew anybody named
24 Ronan Redmond and I never heard of Irish
25 Intercontinental Bank.
26 130 Q. As we now know, the Ansbacher account was moved at a
27 certain point from Guinness & Mahon to IIB?
28 A. I never knew that, but I know that I got £4,600
29 Sterling.
1 131 Q. Very good. Finally, can I pass you two letters
2 dated 8th June, Exhibit 4, and 11th June 1992,
3 Exhibit 5, respectively?
4 A. Yes .
5 132 Q. If you would look first at that of 8th June, and
6 again you see it is a letter from Joan Williams to
7 Ronan Redmond at the IIB, asking ...(INTERJECTION).
8 A. That is 1992.
9 133 Q. Yes, it is just a couple of days before the earlier
10 one, I should think. Asking to have £46 payable to
11 you, and the next letter cancels that. Now, I think
12 what possibly happened was that that £4 6 was
13 inadvertently mentioned instead of £4,600, which you
14 got in fact two days later. Do you recollect at any
15 stage asking for £46 ...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. I have never seen these letters before.
17 134 Q. You have never seen those?
18 A. No. The date is June. It must have been £4,600.
19 135 Q. Yes, I think it was mistake?
20 A. Because that was again paid for maintenance.
21 136 Q. Finally, can I pass you ...(INTERJECTION).
22 A. Can I keep these?
23 137 Q. They will be part of the transcript which you will
24 get a copy of, if you so wish?
25 A. Do I need to give these back.
26 138 Q. Yes. Finally, can I pass you a copy of another
27 cheque? This is a cheque £28,750 payable -- it is
28 quite a bad copy, but I think if you carefully at it
29 you will see it is payable to Dr. Ita Killeen,

1 Exhibit 6?
2 A. What is the date on this, 1985 is it?
3 139 Q. It is 19th November 1986?
4 A. Yes .
5 140 Q. You recognise that cheque or does it jog anything in
6 your memory?
7 A. The date jogs my memory.
8 141 Q. Does the amount? It is quite a large cheque.
9 A. Yes it is, and I know what it is for, as well, too.
10 142 Q. What?
11 A. We bought an apartment in Portugal at that time, but
12 we did pass it through the -- I got approval from
13 two people, the Bank of Portugal to import money and
14 the Central Bank to export money.
15 143 Q. Did you give that cheque, or your wife give that
16 cheque to Mr. Traynor to lodge?
17 A. I think that would have been sent on probably to the
18 estate agency in Portugal, as far as I remember. I
19 never realised that her name was on the cheque, but
20 I know what that is for, that is what it is, we
21 bought an apartment at that time. But, as I said,
22 we did get approval from the Bank of Portugal to
23 import money and we did get approval from the
24 Central Bank.
25 144 Q. I understand that. We are not really concerned with
26 that aspect of it. What I am really trying to find
27 out here is whether this cheque was handed by you to
28 Mr. Traynor at any stage?
29 A. Handed to Mr. Traynor?

1 145 Q. Given to Mr. Traynor to lodge to your account?
2 A. I don't think I ever -- that would have been a
3 cheque that we had taken onwards, but I would not
4 have given it to Mr. Traynor. I don't think I ever
5 gave him that type of an amount ever.
6 MS. MACKEY: Very good. We might maybe
7 take a break here for
8 coffee and you and your solicitor are welcome to
9 have a cup of coffee. We will come back in about
10 ten minutes and continue on. Thank you very much.
11
12 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)
13
14 A. I can clarify this cheque for you now, Exhibit 7, I
15 know exactly what it is.
16 146 Q. Okay.
17 A. This cheque pertains to an apartment that was
18 purchased in Portugal. When we were there, there
19 was quite a high demand for this particular complex
20 and we had to produce the money rapidly and borrowed
21 the money from an Irish man who had a home down
22 there and he loaned me the money. That was pay-back
23 for him.
24 147 Q. It was pay-back for him?
25 A. Yes. This is in my wife's name, because she was the
26 one who was pushing for this apartment at that time.
27 I do not think she ever saw that cheque. I think it
28 was an inter-bank -- it definitely pertains to us.
29 148 Q. Okay. Thank you?
28
1 A. And it is definitely on apartment 304E Villa Magna,
2 Montechoro.
3 MS. MACKEY: Very good, that is fine.
4 Thank you very much.
6 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MS. MACKEY
10
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29
1 DR. KILLEEN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. ROWAN
3 14 9 Q. MR. ROWAN: Dr. Killeen, you
4 mentioned, in connection
5 with the purchase of the apartment, that you had
6 sought and obtained Central Bank clearance
7 ... (INTERJECTION) .
8 A. That is right.
9 150 Q. Presumably for paying out of the country. How did
10 you go about that?
11 A. You see, there were two apartments here. The
12 original one was only a studio apartment and it is
13 201A Villa Magna, Montechoro. In those days you
14 could not take money in or out without getting the
15 thing. I remember, I think, I personally wrote to
16 the Central Bank and I know I wrote to the Bank of
17 Portugal and they acknowledged, both were
18 acknowledged that it could be done.
19 151 Q. You wrote to the Central Bank and said, "I intend to
20 purchase a property and it is going to cost me so
21 much money and I am going to need to pay this money
22 in respect of the purchase."
23 A. Right, and I paid a cheque out of my personal
24 account for the first one. That would have been
25 around 1982, I think. I remember signing one of my
26 own cheques to the value, I think it was £19,000 at
27 that time.
28 152 Q. Yes, and the Central Bank ...(INTERJECTION).
29 A. Yes, and I had Bank of Portugal approval and I had
30
1 approval for the Central Bank. I filled out one of
2 my personal cheques at that time, because that was
3 before the Guinness & Mahon business.
4 153 Q. Central Bank wrote back to you and said, "Thank your
5 for your letter, we approve this transaction."
6 A. That is was approved, yes.
7 154 Q. Did you retain that letter, by any chance?
8 A. I don't think so, because, you see, when we moved
9 into this one, that was it. You see, when this came
10 about there was no problem about shifting money in
11 or out at that time. That was shortly after we
12 bought the first apartment in 204A Villa Magna,
13 Montechoro. The situation about taking money in or
14 out, you didn't have to ask for permission.
15 155 Q. Just returning then to the main issue, you obviously
16 got to know Desmond Traynor pretty well, you were
17 his next door neighbour?
18 A. Yes .
19 156 Q. When he and you agreed that you would open the first
20 deposit account with Guinness & Mahon it was done
21 informally in his study in his home?
23 157 Q. Subsequently, you would have dropped cash or cheques
24 into him to lodge to the account?
26 158 Q. You asked him from time to time to withdraw money
27 from the account?
29 159 Q. You got periodical statements which did not have any
31
1 name on top of them?
2 A. Completely blank, and they were all -- I understood
3 they were all done in his study.
4 160 Q. This was a pretty informal arrangement, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 161 Q. Is that what you expected of a merchant bank?
7 A. Looking back on it now, of course, no, but at that
8 time -- I mean, the man was my next door neighbour.
9 He was a, let's say, a financial wizard, well known
10 in business circles in Dublin. I would never dream
11 of questioning him about the situation. Every time
12 I got one of these slips it was always what I had
13 given him came up on it. There was no reason for me
14 to doubt the situation.
15 162 Q. He was an important man in the banking community?
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 163 Q. And was busy, I take it?
18 A. He was which?
19 164 Q. He was busy. He would have been pretty involved
20 with all the responsibilities he had?
21 A. Oh, yes, yes.
22 165 Q. Did you ever wonder why someone who was that
23 important and that busy could find the time to act
24 almost like a bank messenger?
25 A. Well, you see, we looked after him medically, I was
26 his family doctor, and he wasn't a man that was very
27 well and we looked after him fairly well. So, I had
28 no reason to doubt or worry about my end of the
29 money.
32
1 166 Q. It was really a question around the idea that
2 someone who had risen to quite a high level in the
3 respective organisations in which he was, how he
4 could possibly have devoted the time to accepting
5 lodgements and getting payments out? Was this not a
6 strange phenomomen?
7 A. No, it wasn't. It wasn't strange to me, because I
8 honestly thought that I was the only one that he was
9 doing this for and he was only doing it because I
10 was his next door neighbour. That is the reason I
11 had no reason whatsoever to think otherwise.
12 Absolutely none at all.
13 167 Q. The element of informality -- I was going to use the
14 word "secrecy", but let me use the word
15 "informality" about it.
16 A. Yes.
17 168 Q. That didn't strike a cord with you until the issue
18 came up of the possibility of maybe something being
19 not quite right with this, whenever the scandal came
20 up about the radio or television personality's
21 money?
22 A. Yes, but then as I harken back to what my I
23 originally said here, when we were turned out of
24 University College we knew everything about medicine
25 but we got no lecturing on how one should behave in
26 one's life as regards money, finance or anything.
27 It was dreadful. We were never given any --
28 everything was medicine. So, from my point of view,
29 I was very green as regards money, and Des was the
33
1 first man who really started to lay the foundations
2 for an accountancy situation for our practice.
3 169 Q. I was really divorcing a little the accountancy need
4 for the practice from the issue of having a bank
5 account. I mean, you had a bank account. You had
6 one with the Bank of Ireland ...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. I have been with the Bank of Ireland since 1955.
8 170 Q. When you got a Bank of Ireland statement it had
9 "Bank of Ireland" on the top of it?
10 A. That is right, that is correct. It never was an
11 issue with me. Because, as I said to you, Des
12 Traynor was such a high profile banker and he was my
13 next door neighbour and we looked after him. There
14 was no reason to think anything otherwise.
15 Absolutely none. When you come to think of it, boy,
16 was I naive, wasn't I. My goodness.
17 171 Q. In effect, what was happening was that you knew
18 Mr. Traynor and he knew you?
19 A. Yes.
20 172 Q. He was putting his confidence in you as a medical
21 practitioner?
22 A. That's right.
23 173 Q. And you were putting your confidence in him as a
24 banker?
25 A. Exactly.
26 174 Q. How do you feel now about having put that confidence
27 in him?
28 A. Well, put it this way, my confidence in him is
29 shattered now. Both my wife and myself have always
34
1 practised medicine to the proper ethics of the Irish
2 medical profession and never, ever, ever did
3 anything, ever, to people, you know, question that I
4 was ever did anything wrong medically. Whereas, my
5 confidence in Des now is shattered, really.
6 MR. ROWAN: Thank you. I do not have
7 anything further to ask.
9 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MR. ROWAN
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
35
1 DR. KILLEEN WAS FURTHER EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 175 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a few questions,
5 Doctor. The document that
6 you gave us this morning would seem to start in
7 1983, and the documents here go on up to 1985 and
8 1986 and 1987?
9 A. Yes.
10 176 Q. Can you remember when you first started getting
11 statements from Mr. Traynor? Was it before 1983?
12 These are 1983.
13 A. Mr. Costello, I cannot really. It would be about
14 that time.
15 177 Q. Is that when it started, your arrangement with
16 Mr. Traynor started? Was it the early 80' s, was it
17 before 1980?
18 A. No, no, it couldn't have been, because, as I said,
19 we didn't move into 'Belvedere' -- that is next door
20 to him -- until 1977, and then it was a good few
21 years after that.
22 178 Q. Could we take it that it was sometime not very long
23 before 1983?
25 179 Q. These documents that you have handed in are the bank
26 documents that there was no name or title
28 A. There was never anything on the -- there were never
29 any captions, Mr. Costello, never.
36
1 180 Q. It shows, however, that there was interest credited
2 to this account?
3 A. Yes.
4 181 Q. You knew throughout all these years that interested
5 was credited to it?
6 A. Yes.
7 182 Q. It is this interest, you realise now, that tax
8 should have been paid?
9 A. That is right.
10 183 Q. Now, you told your accountants about this and they
11 apparently thought you had been very foolish, or
12 words to that effect -- and I don't want to go into
13 that -- but when was that?
14 A. After I got the cheque from Mr. Collery and I lodged
15 it in the bank in Killester about 18 months ago.
16 184 Q. You went to your accountants?
17 A. I did, and I told them about that.
18 185 Q. Who was the accountant?
19 A. David Richardson in Deloitte & Touche.
20 186 Q. Mr. Richardson?
21 A. Yes, and he insisted on informing the tax people
22 that this money was there now and tax had to be paid
23 for it, and from the moment that that money came
24 into my possession he insisted on paying tax.
25 187 Q. What about the arrears, tax on the arrears, are you
26 negotiating with the Revenue?
27 A. No, I haven't. That has to be dealt with. That is
28 the next debacle that I have got myself into.
29 188 Q. Are you going to do this?
37
1 A. Oh, yes, I will, yes. Yes, definitely, yes. I
2 definitely want to make my peace with the Revenue
3 Commissioners, yes.
4 189 Q. Very well, then, I think that is everything. Thank
5 you, Dr. Killeen. We will ask you to sign the
6 transcript of the evidence when it will be completed
7 in the next few days.
8 A. Right. Will that be sent out to me?
9 190 Q. If you wouldn't mind coming in here to sign it?
10 A. Right.
11 END OF EXAMINATION OF DR. KILLEEN BY MR. JUSTICE
12 COSTELLO
13
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
38
^ ,3.00 o
•*as2aai«i" qaâaau: zuoTiosa* az
Anabachcr Limited
A Mtmbtr of the Htnry Ansbaehtr Holdings PLC Merchan
P.O. Box 817, Grind Cayman, Britah West India

Pleasereplyto: Phone (809) 949-4431/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2.
fiuc (809) 949-7944
(809) 949-3267
Tel; 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
Garrett Logan, Esq., ,

91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
V e&y
Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange to let me have £ o r ejection tomorrow
morning, Friday 1st March, an Irish Pounds Draft for IH£16,000
payable to C.M.T. Killeen and debit the sterling cost to
"nsbacher Limited Call Account No.02^01'81. .
Yours sincerely.
^xsu^ kiJUL
For ANSBACHER LIMITED
JDT/AJW
<V3
r-£- Pleasereplyto: Ansbacher Limited
42 Ftewffliam Square,
P.O. Box 887, Grind Cayman, Cayman Islands, British West Indies
Dublin!
Tel: 765144/763065 Telephone: (809) 949-8635 Telex: CP 4305
Fax: 612035 Facsimile (809) 949-7944 (809) 949-5267
VIA FAX 10th June, 1992.

Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited
91 Kerrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
y^cn Sq..
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let, me have for collection as souxi
as possible a Sterling cheque fu*. Lh. Sterling equivalent of
IRE4,600 payable to C. K l l l e a m a n d debit the cost to Ansbacher
Limited Account
Yours sincerely,
\For ANSBACHER LIMITED
/AJW
* w n o n or thx anssju3» i w ^ f l ^ t * ^ wrra orroxa 1Z3

Pleasereplyto: Ansbacher Limited
42 FfoEwffliam Square, P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Ctyman Islands, British West indies
Publin 1 Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Id: Â4^763065 Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Far 612035
8th Jtane, 199.2.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let me have tor collection on
Wednesday morning 10th June a Sterling cheque for the Sterling
equivalent of IRS46.00 payable to C. ^-iMILJnd debit the cos*
to Ansbacher Limited Account No,
Yours sincerely,
JoftN. r y.i. o •jf'^p

for ANSBACHER L I M H ^ t ^
P.S. I would appreciate it if you could advise the

Irish Pound/Sterling Exchange Rate used for above
which I would like to have at same time as cheque.
^Js^T/AJW
a r a x oro*thsanw
A tkOMBxx THX AHsxAcm j k s ^ wrra o m e n . „ , ,
w
Pleasereplyto: Ansbacher Limited
42 Fitzwflliam Square,
Dublin 1 P.O. Box 817, Guild Cayman, Cayman Islands, British West ladies
Tel: 765144/763065 . Telephone: (109) 949-8635 Telex: CP 4305
Far 612035 -Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
; ^ JUM992
11th June, 1992.

Corporate Services,
91 Herrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
I return herewith Sterling cheque for Stg.£42.36 payable to
C. Killeen which you issued on 10ifh . Unfortunately this
is not now required and I should be grateful therefore if you
would cancel it and reimburse Ansbacher Limited Account
Apologies for the confusion.
Yours sincerely,
.Obex- Line.
Fdr ANSBACHER LIMITED
/AJW
a m a a
A mbobx orTO*
auo locatjdw tub laxmcmt •ntmvnkjw dlands.
^^ «unNsir.uoiuooAKDSwrRsaxjuo
Appendix XV (62) (l)(g)
763065 ^ • 42 FITZWILLIAM SQUARE
ftcalmiUa: 612035
DUBLIN 2.
26th June, 1990.

N. David Bomphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness A Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
i.
t-
^t"'Dear David, *
AT"!
^Could you please arrange to debit the Account of
/"^Dr. T.C. Killeen Ho.11981001 with IR£2,400.00 and credit
that amount to Kent ford Securities Limited No. 2 Account
No.12460002.
I would also like to have an up to date Statement of
o Dr. Killeen's Account.
Tours sincerely.
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
Tal: 768144/783008 42 RTZWILL1AM SQUARE,
Fax: 612035 DUBLIN 2.
12th November, 1990

M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Guinness £ Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DPBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to have IRE5,400 transferred from
the Account of Dr. Colm Killeen No.11981001 to Kentford
Securities Limited Account No.^**™*-*
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Travnor.
JDT/AJW
/
/
t
...... r v : .,
FILE UNDER; "Ansbacher limited
fbMK QM) MMfSI/4

42 FittwOHam Square, TUhc (74309
Hue 009) MMM
Dublin 2. (80S) 94»-S2S7
TU: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
10th June, 1991.

Guinness & Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to let me L.-.. - r collection on
Wednesday morning IRE1,000.00 in ouh Cram the Account of
.•^Dr. Killeen, Account No. 11981001
feat ,
Yours sincerely, fi /vXL
)
J.D. Travnor.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (62) (1)0)
42RTZWUXIAKISQUARE
Tel: 878 5144/878 3065 DUBLIN 2
Fax: 661 2036
5th July, 1993.

H. David Humphries, Esq.,
Guinness & Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection
an Irish Pounds draft for IRei,000.00 payable to Bank of
Ireland and debit the Account of Drôlm and Dr. Ita
Killeen No.13180001.
Yours sincerely.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (62) (l)(k)
42 FITZWILLIAM SQUARE
DUBLIN 2.
* 22nd May, 1990.

Guinness * Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please' arrange to have the Account of Dr . Colm
Killeen, Mo.11981001 debited: with IRE5,000 and to have
that amount credited to Kentford Securities Limited No.2
Account No.12460002. \
\
• Yours sincerely,
J.D. Travnor.
JDT/AJW
Strictly Private & Confidential f 1 R
The Inspectors
l;-Tnpfi-> Chambers
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited
3 rd Floor 3 Ruriirqton Road
Dublin 4
Trident House
Tel: +353 1 202 6400
Blackrock
Fax: +353 1 667 5200
Co. Dublin
DX 25
Email: lawyer@efcie
Website: www.efc.ie
ourref TL/PH/IC22074.001 yourref 20 th December2001
Re: Our client: Dr. Colm Killeen

Preliminary Findings
Dear Sirs and Madam,
As you know thisfirm represents Dr. Colm Killeen and the writer attended with him during the course of
his interview with the Inspectors on 15th February 2000.
We have been passed by Dr. Killeen the copy of your letter to him of 3 rd December 2001. We note from
this that your preliminary conclusions are that Dr. Killeen was a client of Ansbacher and that this
conclusion is based on the evidence given by him to the inspectors and the further documentation
enclosed with your letter.
Whilst Dr. Killeen has accepted, with the benefit of having the relevant evidence put to him
retrospectively, that he had an account with Ansbacher, we believe that it would be entirely disingenuous
for your report not to record his ignorance of this fact at the time during which the account was operated
without his knowledge or consent. In this regard we would refer you, in particular, to pages 5 and 6 of
the transcript of his evidence in which he states "to be truthful I thought Ansbacher was a man,
because I never heard the name mentioned before that". We would also refer you to the following
sections of the transcript:-
Page 9 -lines 2 0 - 2 4
Page 14 - lines 14 to 19
Page 15 - lines 13-18 " but I never dealt with Ansbacher, whoever it
was, I always spoke to Des next door. "
Page 20-lines 13 - 1 6
Page 22 - lines 4 - 26.
It is quite evident from the extracts to which we have made reference that Dr. Killeen was a perfectly
innocent party in relation to any dealings with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited or its associated or
subsidiary banks. He invested money through Mr. Traynor in Guinness & Mahon Bank on the basis that
it provided a better interest rate and on the (then mistaken) belief that the appropriate income tax would
be deducted at source. The monies passed to Mr. Traynor for investment were all declared income and
he made a payment to the Revenue Commissioners at the earliest possible opportunity in settlement of
unpaid taxes arising on the interest earned.
Partners ' "!-••:;.• i i.r-;!F-n-- F-ineno M:iip:••• ;\ii. \\ Ounoi!: David c'isor Teny Leiyjett Gerard Coll Bai ry O'Noil Leonora Malone David Cantrell
D'. ' .. i i1 '-.:-.. !.v;\r w Associates '::nGi'. Urfor'V.:.!-. M.-ir; E. Barrett John Cosiello I Uv. C,'Sui!iv,in Lili.ni Halpin Ronan O'N
:•'.;'.!• M.ii'.i/- i 1 1'' 1 i^P'.'itv L'oou \,:.ith Deboiah \olly VVilliarn Ay'mer NnHn MtGiaih David Hackeit
Consultants M.iig,ut>t Furke-Stounton Futli Finlay
We believe these factors should be properly recorded in your report. Failure to do so would be to make
afinding that does not reflect Dr. Killeen's right to fair and proper procedure and would impinge on his
rights to natural justice. He will take all appropriate steps to protect his position.
Yours faithfully,
Eugene F. Collins
f:\uscrs\phfickettVdec01\kHleeti2ninsp doc
Appendix XV (63) Mr Richard Lawes & Picton Investments
Limited
Richard Lawes and Picton Investments Limited.
a) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Padraig Collery dated 11 January

2000.
b) Letter of 9 November 1976 - GMCT to SKC Services.
c) Letter of 11 January 1982 - Guinness and Mahon to Central Bank of

Ireland.
d) Letter of 4 January 1983 - Stokes Kennedy Crowley & Co to Guinness

and Mahon.
e) Letter of 7 April 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to Picton Investments Ltd.
f) Guinness and Mahon statement of a/c at October 1977 re Picton

Investments Ltd.
g) Deposit dealing slip - GMCT re Picton.

Appendix XV (63) (l)(a)
A
1 A. I didn't recall it but there is documentation that

2 when X was going through with Mr. Ryan that it
3 showed that had some transactions which
4 went through the accounts of'Hamilton Ross.
5 295 Q. What these are names of other persons who had an
6 interest in this deposit whom you don't remember but
7 whom you are satisfied were involved?
8 A. Prom on the evidence that is coming to us, yeB, they
9 have had relationships there.
10 296 Q. And then names mentioned by Mr. Ryan as having
11 association, Picton investments Ltd, is that another
12 name you do not remember?
13 A. No, Picton Investments Ltd , to the best of my
14 knowledge, whilst it was a Cayman company had an
15 account directly with Guinness & Mahon in Dublin, in
16 its own right. It didn11 have any relationship with
17 Ansbacher or Hamilton Ross or College Trustees. It
18 was a company that had a direct relationship with
19 Guinness & Mahon Dublin.
20 297 Q. Do you know who was the person, the beneficiary who
m
21 controlled it?
22 A. I think it had associations with Mr. Lawes and
23 Mr. Lawes had something to do with Connaught Foods
24 Ltd.
25 2 "8 Q. MS. MACXZYt Mr. Richard Lawes was it?
26 A. I don't know the first name. I believe he was a
27 scientist or a chemist. I know he was from the UK.
28 i met him on one occasion but nothing more than that
29 do I know about him.
A Member ol the Gulnneaa Mahon Merchant Banking Group
Rtt Bex 887
NO 9-4653M
Grand Cayman
CP 305
British Weat Indie*
,U."iii GufnneM
9th November, 1976.

E. Keegan, E s q . ,
S.K.C. Services,
H&r.court House,
Harcourt S t r e e t ,
DUBLIN 2 .
Dear Mr. Keegan,

Ve have today r e c e i v e d from Guinness + Uahon
Limited on b e h a l f of p i c t o n Investments Limited £500,000
being d i v i d e n d from Connaught Foods L i m i t e d .
Ve have a r r a n g e d w i t h Guinness + Mahon Limited t o
place t h e s e funds for one month t o 9th December a t 15%.
The funds a r e E u r o s t e r l i n g and t h e r a t e I s based
accordingly.
Yours ithfully,
For GO ON CAYMAN TRUST LTD.
i
i
Our Ref; M C K / B K tlth January, 1982.
Exchange Control Department,

Central 3ank of Ireland,
Dame Street,
2 U S L I N , 2.
Dear Sirs,
! ' •'' )
;
. Connacht Foods Limited
Permission Is sought for the payment by the above Company or" a dividend
of £500,000 to Its parent company, Plcton Investments, P.O. tiox 837,
Grand Cayman.
* . ' V:
Au enclose the usual letter from the Company's auditors.
Your* faitnfi.lly.
Harcourt House.
Harcourt Street.
Dublin 2, Ireland.
V Stokes Kennedy Crowley & Co. Telephone (01) 757971
W « Chartered Accountants Telex 24494
Our Rcf. EK/MH
Your Ref.
4 January, 1983
Guinness & Mahon L t d . ,

17 College Green,
Dublin 2.
w
.Attention: Mr. Martin Keane
Dear S i r s ,
Connacht Foods Limited
We are a u d i t o r s of the above company.

We understand t h a t the company proposes to pay a dividend to i t s shareholders
of £500,000.
We confirm t h a t i n our opinion the company has adequate Retained Earnings and
Resources t o allow payment of a dividend i n the amount s t a t e d above.
Yours f a i t h f u l l y ,
-/L^ Qu, 1>

STOKES KENNEDY CROWLEY & CO.
Ale* Uurra WiHuni Krfcy Brian O'Connor (.'omultante Hon Harm Niall O'Carroll
luhn Callaghaft Edgar Forsier Fergus OTierney Norman liak Noel Holland Michael Varian
K>m Carroll Norman Judge Dun Keid Ronald il.ilpcr Ray Jackson lien Wilson
Dt-clan CiiHin% Kdward Keegan Ales Spain ("hriitophcr I'ulUn Jerome Kanncdv RobertWimdv
Niwl Ci»>kc Amhony Lynch Michael Spellmail Mark Ifcihhyii Michael MacNamara
CiMKir Oiwley Dnmml Miller (iarrclt Walkw Jim Dourly Gerard McEvoy Associate
1-auicmx Ciimley John Naah K k M (<«••• ne Paul MeCuwan Niall Crowley
OHieev HclfaM, Cork. Galway. limerick and New York
Appendix XV (63) (l)(e)
n
GUINNESS+MAHONITD
17 Cortege Box SSATfetephone:782444
^Lcton InvestmeQta^S) 7th April, 1977.

c7oTj".A.Fur2e, Esq.TGulnness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.
P.O.Box. 887,
Grand Cayman.
BRITISH WEST INDIES.
Dear Sirs,
We confirm having accepted thefollowing funds from you:
Vahm 7th April, 1977.
Amount £524,670.15 (Stg.).
Plana Rsy Existing deposit plus i

a
for Account Yourselves.
Tarm . Fixed to 6th May, 1977
Rats % par annum 9.

O . '
/
"~v 4 ^ r n n o M , T h r o u < i h Direcft.
YoumWthfuHy,
for QUMMBdS+MAHONUP
• • # rrr» «tt
JUtad iJtI.CtfylmLqr*Jnr,
AnwmbwoiawQuinnMfPMtaniup
. .ACCOUNT- • ^ ACCOUF
r INVESTMENTS
'zfcste JWiu.
00 J
• ' PARTICULARS BALANCe

do
KIQMT TP AT 1 & 50CVOOO.OO SOC^QOOJOO
50^00400
S00lQ0(j.p0
:. ^164.38 «
TO 10/1/77 , 1
505,164.33
•w.*'- v
526^47.4^3
p | :Vo/,^/'77 icr
526, 476.83 ;
526,4.76.63 s
20iSlfi,45
f.M1 • 52^476^2-
Jtt/2/77 AT. 15KX . 524476j|3 . S2M76iBf
5£6,47<S^2
. 526,47 >j33
y.v •
)&M7«.8S:
llfk'Mt
... ' .jtSn#nt»rMr
Guinness & Mahon Ltd
k •i • >> fry ; -li/i,,- lj—>4
7* . * >•• •-
Jmfe-.Plctori In-Vedtfaianta Ltd,, 17 COLLEGE (SREEN DUBLIN2
P v O ; 8 B 7 y Srand Cabman;
^v-'- • Brltiih' W0st -iMieg
T ELglÔNE 7824M
TELfe^ ''5205
S..1-:
iwSR:*;'?
•: & . .' ••• T .• • • 1
• •. • .
. .
f**^
Appendix XV (63) (1) (g)

Appendix XV (64) Mr Frank Lee
Frank Lee.
a) GMCT memo of 16 December 1976 to Mr TR Leonard.
b) Letter of 9 December 1976 - GMCT to Mr Frank Lee.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Frank Lee.
a) Letter of 3 December 2000 - Mr Frank Lee to the Inspectors.

U 1 1
VK
5205 MARS E l
305GUINNESS CP
16 DECEMBER .1976
ATTENTION HR. T . R . LEONARD
P ^ R E T DELAY IN REPLYING CONCERNING DEPOSITS IN NAME OF .
.Xxx. AND FRANK LEE. I N C A S E OF X X X X X X * WOULD YOU
~ASE PAY HIM POUNDS t O . U I 8 . t a OESITING THIS AMOUNT TO THE
S„.<IDRY SUB-COMPANY ACCOUNT. IN YOUR LETTER TO HfM WOULD YOU
.EASE BE GOOD ENOUGH TO ADVISE THAT THIS REPRESENTS THE PRIN-
CIPAL ON HIS DEPOSITS ACCOUNT OF DOLLARS 17.018.81 TOGETHER
tflTH INTEREST OF DOLLARS 3 7 9 . 4 2 . TOTAL DOLLAR AMOUNT IS
17.398.23 WHICH HAS BEEN CONVERTED TO POUNDS'AT 1.67 PRODUCING
>OUNDS t Q . M 8 . 1 0 .
N THE CASS OF FRANK LEE HIS DEPOSIT BALANCE IS DOLLARS 5.454.00
LUS INTEREST OF DOLLARS 13.33 MAKING A TOTAL OF DOLLARS 5467.33.
H I S HAS BEEN CONVERTED ALSO AT 1.67 PRODUCING POUNDS 3273.85 - — -
HICH AMOUNT SHOULD ALSO BE DEBITED TO THE"SUNDAY SUB-COMPANY „
CCOUNT AND PAID TO HIM. I AM NOT CERTAIN WHETHER IN HIS REQUEST^**
0 WITHDRAW THE BALANCE FRANK WISHED TO INCLUDE THE LATEST of
REDIT OF DOLLARS 5,060 AND SUGGEST YOU CONTACT HIM TO BOTAIN rt'.n
-ARJFICATIQN ON THIS POINT.
J BOTH INSTANCES I S SHOULD BE GRATEFUL IF YOU WOULD ADVISE THE

E F I C I A R I E S OF THE DOLLAR'AMOUNTS AND CONVERSION TO POUNDS AND J
• fA1N THEIR SIGNATURES TO A COPY OF YOUR LETTEfT THEREBY ACKNOW-
GING RECEIPT. THESE COPY' LETTERS SHOULD BE FORWARDED TO US IN
E COURSE. '
/""S
A Mwnbar ol tha Quinmn Maho* MwoHwt Banking Oroup
TalaphooaNo s—k2s3/4 P.0.BMU7
Tatac <7306 OamdCammn
yourref
MF/ii
9th ViceubtA, 1976
Ht.fturnfc Lee
Mwfiinfti
) COAt
IKE LAW
Vua fjumk,
KEDHALL INVESTMENTS MUTED
KEPHALL TW8T
.Ttotfc you {OA gout IttttA «( t9th HovtwBtt eonflmOig agummt to
tht IfguuA puvMtd in the atamutU ot; x
which accomfitnUd my littu to you o{ 75th OctobtK.
I mom heart pUatu/u <Ln incloUng tut vapdattd 8o6mee Shut pttpeuud
ai at 30th NovcabcA and txpuutd tit Focwd Stirling. Hum thU
ttUl l e t that thou, heu 4* pi a Alight ttdutUon In tht loan
Uguxt by ulxtui of tht loot that m have unUtan oft tht .. .
AhaxtA at co*t. Van taLU Atcoll that theit *hcwu wvu Mid and
tht halt ptoauxU vudJUtd dJJuatty to tht account ol Xxx
XX> <•* Mftifct** H^rffnurf Bank.
4tui oh the ftoftt end Lo44 Account U tht bituut taxntd ox Me

xxx dtpoilt account ptUoK to the comwuton O{ tht tolaice o{ the
account Unto US dotla/ii.
In 4ofax oa tht anet* ate eoncuntd, having diipo*td ol tht
Aha*** tkt only JbuutMKt ttmbUng JU 750 thou* o{ 41 eaah In
v-xx x x : and mt toan «uetft have been Inc/ujutd
bu vlttut o{ tht US$100,000 ubxuuMd to XXX finally, In eonmctlon
mtk tht Steeling account* you ttUl notiee an Xncfceate In tht..
batonat by uUttut o{ tht -intviUt allowed pilot to eonvuilon.
.../e
IVu PwiOt Ltt
9th VtaoAvt, 1976
Vagt t
'• '-J-
On the tumftion. that you mill btlnt poUtto* to O0*ee the ttefci&ig
Hetarerom cmetuttd all
ftagffneei to U.S. doUo/U «t at exc/Uutfe A«te o* T.iS. Alio wHeud
axt account* *J at 3«& Moveêt expteuei in G~S. dollou, ondr
jttopMe that tftete foot the 6o*& offaftieeiooouAting. PvtMapi you
mould be kind uuugkto M aefata*tJutRu you agJitt tkut (fyufuu
and aJUo odulie. mt H you have any qutxJju.
Tukning now to the account* oi X x x , * oaeXlytht
• M M * tncloUng MAoanti MUeh Z th&U *>a {Ant A*itxolanatoHy
both In Pound StuUng and In U.S. toUtou. Awe peUwp* j/oa
w w U be Unrf enough to tonÛm you*, agwmnt to tht dollo*. M t u u
40 that we can eiutffce yen* Aecoftcb tatth ouu.
Finally, I «oa&* aawMoH that theee U a tmtl ovvuUatt on the ban*
account of x x * ^ am* a4 thete be cxpuuu owe* tht next
two month* in the frm of Qowumtnt ftei, etc. Sot ^ x
XX 1 p*opo4t InUkacting At LtomMd to elate the' * x eiU
depotlt account umtttlng tho«e fowl* to at fo£ eeectit to the euuenC
account of . >f> 7 take, it thU action *tt£i
mltk yoaA approval.
Ovtx tht aortic ol the next few dayi, I mlU be mitfcifl to you itndlng
UmJUan. aummti both in Foawf SUMling and U.S. doltaxi fee the vatUom
<ntltiu mtth uktah mt Me •mftml/y Involved.
Yowu tlnatAtly,
A;
9
JOHN A. ROSE
Enctl.
W5
C&iJ-*} ft- O
J, /t IS l i e 1
' / a / <> a< r" /-/c A-
/L ^
uAii-tH
^LCU, /tT
cZ-fj-v*^?
ft> .Jf-"^^ î-rtpizct^y* wQ
J /ecu, -f^- _ JH-âl 7^JWS? /Ccgs.
A- ai *
fr
- o - t ^
J' n-ct' ^ ^
KU. -wty êt,tZZ/ 4 -tfu.
J> CLj^l ^JH^HJ^C. tt— f
fl 't-d e- t't't^'- t ^ P d f) • *
-J A^c^ju eiê ^fi-iee^
^ -far ^ ^ ^ ^
^wt-û^C ^ O'S 0 f ^/LtiA. ^Lt- tftsL, C^C^
a £- 2-L 7 /an^dis .
ti+r z- ^ ^ ^ ^
if o
Qi«JU.et«J- ^ ^ ^
^ , * " — ^ ^
Z r J ^ ^
Appendix XV (65) Mr Michael Leyden, deceased & Mrs
Dorothy Leyden
Michael Leyden, deceased & Mrs Dorothy Leyden.
a) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Jack Stakelum dated 8 November

2000.
b) Letter of 18 October 2000 from Inspectors to Mr Jack Stakelum.
c) Letter of 6 November 2000 and enclosure from Mr Stakelum to

Inspectors.
d) Letter of 21 February 2001 and enclosures from Mr Stakelum to

Inspectors.
e) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 7 April 1976.
f) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 8 April 1976.
g) Letter of 4 April 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
h) Letter of 13 June 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
i) Guinness and Mahon list of suitably secured loans dated 1976, 1977 &
1978, (extracts).
23 147 Q. When did that start?
24 A. I am inclined to believe 1976 but it might have been
25 1977. I would have started on my own in late 1975.
26 x only had one year of operations in 1975.
27 148 Q. Would you tell us what the arrangement in a general
2 8
way was with Mr. Traynor. How was this service
29 operated?
4
1 If I can take a typical example/ a client may have

2 asked me to look after funds that in almost all
3 cases that I am aware of were already abroad.
4 I would have asked Mr. Traynor to advise me where
5 the funds might be transferred to, and then the
6 client would issue instructions when I got the
7 tracking route or account name or code or whatever
8 they might be.
9 Could you not be a little bit more specific because
10 you know these terms, X don't know. Would you mind
11 explaining them to us?
12 If the client wished to place the funds with me and
13 they were in some Royal Bank of Scotland in Jersey
14 or wherever.
15 This is client's of yours?
16 Yes.
17 Why would they want to place their funds with you?
18 They might be unhappy about monitorihg the funds in
19 the sense of. what interest rate...(INTERJECTION).
20 But you were not a "bank?
21 No.
22 They were asking your advice as to where to put the
23 funds?
24 They were asking me whether I could monitor those
25 funds on their behalf.
26 Monitor is a word you use; I don't understand it.
27 Your clients have funds and they come into you.
28 What do they ask you to do?
29 They would say 'We have funds offshore' wherever
31
r^
1 they might have been 'Can you look after these funds
2 for me.'
3 155 Q. "Can you look after these funds." What did that
4 mean?
5 A. Would you endeavour to get the best interest rate.
6 Would you monitor the funds. '
7 156 Q. Take it slowly. Would you endeavour to get the best
8 interest rate. Were they asking you to change
9 where their funds were into some other financial
10 institution?
11 A. I don't think they would come in and say 'We have
12 funds. Will you change them for some other
13 financial institution.• I think a discussion would
14 have arose with them that they would have advised me
15 that they had £X in funds and say 'Can you look
16 after these funds on my behalf.'
17 157 Q. What does that mean? -
18 A. It.means that they might not want to•correspond
19 directly, with .whatever foreign bank they were using.
20 They might not want to get mail received from
21 foreign banks on the basis of monthly statements.
22 They wouldn't feel that necessarily competent about
23 looking at whether the funds should be placed
24 one month or three months or six months. And that
25 they would like me to look after those factors.
26 158 Q. What did you do then?
27 A. I would probably advise them at some stage that
28 there would be a facility available through
You then contacted Guinness & Mahon?
Yes.
You used the word "facility." What does that mean
in this connection?
It means I would probably have contacted
Des Traynor. I would have said 'I have a client
— for the most part he wouldn't know who my clients
were — that wishes to have funds monitored abroad
by me.'
Don't used the word "monitored" because I don'.t
understand what it means. You have a client.
What is he to do?
Des Traynor is to give me an account number, a
reference, a bank where the client who would have
the funds would have to give instructions to his
bank to have the funds moved. Those funds —
I don't understand these things either — might be
moved to a receiving bank.
This is very important. If you don't understand it,
I understand even less. Let us take a typical
client with funds in Jersey. You tell Mr. Traynor
that this client is: dissatisfied. What does
Mr. Traynor then do?
He gives me coded references. I don't remember but
it might well be a reference to a bank account in
London for so and so, for the account of so and so.
What was the bank?
Mr. Costello, I don't remember and I am sure those
instructions would have varied over the years.
33
1 What was the account, in whose name was the account
2 to be placed?
3 X have a difficulty answering that question, not
4 wanting to be uncooperative. " All I am saying is
5 that Mr. Traynor would be seeking to get the funds
6 under his control and there is a transfer process.
7 You must have known the financial institution in
8 which your clients's funds were going to be placed?
9 The only answer I can give to that is I don't recall
10 because over the years they probably used different
11 financial institutions.
12 Tell me some of them that were used that
13 Mr. Traynor would have told you about. Give me the
14 names of some of those, Mr. Stakelum?
15 It is very difficult unde? oath, but let us try
16 Guinness & Mahon London for a start. I don't know.
17 But if it was Guinness & Mahon London, it would
18 probably be account of so and so, reference so and
19 -so-etc. etc.. But I am not absolutely positive of.,
20 that. It could also vary depending on the currency.
21 If it was dollars it might be something else.
22 What other financial institution did he tell you
23 that the money was going to be deposited in?
24 I don't know, I just don't know. It would be a
25 once-off instruction. I don't know. It probably
26 would depend on where the funds were coming from
27 too.
28 Do your best. I am sure you are under strain,

29 Mr. Stakelum. Tell me the numbers of other
34
1 institutions that clients of yours had money
2 deposited as a result of your contact with
3 Mr. Traynor?
4 I just cannot answer that. That is not wanting to
5 be uncooperative, I just caruiot remember.
6 Why can't you remember?
7 How do I answer a question of why I cannot remember?
8 For example, were any of the funds lodged in any of
9 the Guinness & Mahon subsidiaries in Cayman or in
10 the Channel Islands?
11 I don't think so. But I think the funds would be
12 initially lodged somewhere maybe for the account of
13 Guinness Mahon Cayman, reference number so and so,
14 maybe for the account in Guinness & Mahon London for
15 Guinness & Mahon Dublin. I am not too sure.
16 You would get specific instructions.
17 It may have been the account of Guinness & Mahon in
18 Dublin or Guinness & Mahon in London. Was this the
19 offshore bank we are talking.about, Guinness & Mahon
20 Cayman Trust, the Ansbacher bank. They would have
21 been lodged in its account in Dublin or lodged in
22 its account in London?
23 It may well have been, I don't remember.
24 But you are under oath now?
25 That's right.
26 You are under oath. Can you say that funds your
27 client had asked you in relation to assistance were
28 lodged in an account in the name of Guinness Mahon
29 Cayman Trust in Dublin or in London?
35
1 A. I cannot remember. I suspect that some of the
2 instructions given at the time would be what was at
3 the best requirements of the Guinness & Mahon bank,
4 what their internal ...(INTERJECTION).
5 174 Q. A few minutes ago you to said to me that you gave
6 Mr. Traynor instructions and that you transferred
7 funds to him and they were transferred offshore, is
8 that not right. Didn't you say that to me a few
9 minutes ago?
10 A. They were probably offshore already. I thought we
11 were talking about a client...(INTERJECTION).
12 175 Q. They were offshore already you think?
13 A. Yes, most of the funds were offshore already.
14 176 Q. All the funds of these clients we are talking about
15 were offshore. Did you ever.have clients coming in
16 to you with funds that weren't offshore?
17 A. Yes.
18 177 Q. What would happen then?
19 A. • --At different stages,, in the early stages I think
20 Irish pounds could be converted without any problem
21 into Sterling. It is one and the same in the
22 1970's. Then-they could be moved from Sterling.
23 178 Q. Were they put offshore, the funds?
24 A. Yes.
25 179 Q. Where?
26 A. All I know is that with Des Traynor I would have
27 assumed Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, later
28 Ansbacher. But it could well have been
29 College Trustees or Guinness & Mahon Guernsey.
36
1 180 Q. One or the other?
2 A. Yes, I assume one or the other.
3 181 Q. Did any of your clients to your knowledge establish
4 trusts with the assistance of Guinness & Mahon with
5 Mr. Traynor either in the Cayman Islands or in the
6 Channel Islands?
7 A. Hot to my knowledge.
8 182 Q. None of than told you that they had done this?
r^ 9 A. No.
10 183 Q. Mr. Traynor didn't tell you that he was going to
11 suggest this to them?
12 A. No.
13 184 Q. You are pretty certain on that or are you doubtful
14 about it?
15 A. I am not aware certainly of any clients that
16 established such trusts. I am not aware of any
17 that did.
18 185 Q. If they didn't establish trusts, you are aware of
19 . clients who transferred funds offshore?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 186 Q. We will break now for a cup of coffee,
22 Mr. Stakelum, for about ten minutes or so.
23
25
26
27
28
29
OurRef: C/S1Q/NM „f 8 fii'T ;i.
18* October 2000

Mr. Jack Stakehini
"Fairmont"
Ballyronan Road
Kilpedder
Co. Wicklow
Strictly Private & Confidential -Addressee Only
Dear Sir
I refer to your letter of 11 October 2000, and I reply an my own behalf, and on behalf of my
colleagues,
• Mr. Justice Declan Costdlo and-Mr. Paul Rowan.
We now wish tn wfamtnft yni^ ym<W rmfh concerning the matters set out in our two letters dated
30 August 2000 and 21 September 2000. To thal'end, I propose that an interview would take
place in our offices atfee above address, either en Wednesday 8 or on Thursday 9 November, at
10.00 a.m. Perhaps you would make contact with our secretary, Ms Prances Gaynar at the above
phone number to confirm either date, or to make mutually convenient alternative arrangements if
those dates do not suit you.
We note your refusal to provide us with, names of yourdients prior to examination. I must point
out to you that you are obliged by law to provide us with the information we have required of
you. In that regard, I refer you to Appendix B of our two letters, which sets out our statutory
powers. You will note that section 10(5) of the Companies Act 1990 imposes a duty upon you to
comply with our requirement, and, in the case of a refusal to do so, m&es provision for the
matter to be dealt with by the High Court
I therefore repeat our requirement that you provide us with the names and addresses of those
clients who you may have advised in relation to trusts in the Cayman or Channel Islands, or in
relation to the transfer of funds to either of those islands. We require this information to be
provided in writing prior to the interview. We have noted also your expressed intention to argue
at interviewfeat it would be invidious to disclosefee identity of your clients. Once again, I must
point out to youfeat you are obliged to do so, in compliance with our requirement The interview
is not the proper forum in which to make submissions, and it is not our practice to entertain them.
Yours faithfully
"FAIRMONT"
JACK STAKELUM BALLYRONAN ROAD
CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT .
KILPEDDER
TELEPHONE: 2810646 FAX: 2810645
MOBILE: 087 2854660 CO. WICKLOW
The Inspectors
Floor
Trident House A0»
Blackroclc
CO. DUBLIN
6 November, 2000
Dear Sirs,
With reference to your letter of tho 18* October, and in particular the third
paragraph, I should point out that I did not refiise as such to provide the information in
question, merely that I should be afforded the opportunity to argue why I should not be
asked to (fivulge such information. The persons in question dealt with me cm an
understanding of confidentiality, and as the Inspectors will surely appreciate, it is difficult
not to honour that confidentiality, particularly when one has been used, over one's
professional life, to honouring the confidentiality of Clients.
Howr/or, as you point outforcefully in your letter, you are not preparedtoallow
me that opportunity and you have referred to the legal position. In the circumstances, I
attach a list of the names and addresses of the persons in question
Z0^ —
Your&fiuthMy,
Encly
V.A.T. Number 23S448SK

iGTTeii 6
i
C f hi .
Midud Lcjdat, c/o The Bungalow, Holme Lane,- Measingham, Hear Scunthorpe,
South Humbcrside. England, (deceased)
rs
(epm-T)
JOHN J. STAKELUM
"Fairmont"
• Ballyronan Road,
Kilpedder, Co. Wicklow.
21 February2001.
The High Court Inspectors,

3 rd Floor, >« m m
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
Re: Interviews with the Inspectors on 8/11/2000 and 6/12/2000.
Dear Inspectors,
•He content in sections l and 2 has been written m order to add clarification to the information^
given in my Statement dated 22 September 2000.
1. The Consultancy Business I set np in 1975.
•
In December 1975 I decided to set up a business that would provide a general financial
Consultancy service to clients. I had identified the market need in Haughey Boland & Company
during my auditing work: but more particularly during toy receivership, liquidation and financial
restructuring experience. The services I decided tofocus on were:
• Preparation of properly assembled requestsfor financing from banks.

• Preparation of well constructed projected cash flow and profit and loss statements.
• Accompanying clienis at meetings with their bankers.
• The presentation of meaningful management accounts and the procedures within businesses
for the timely production of them.
• Being a sounding board for all lands of operating issues - both problems and perceived
opportunites.
• Guidance on where to go and tow to request professional services.
• Helping businesses in difficulty to get back to profitability or to move logically to
receivership or liquidation.
• Acting for clients in the purchase or safe of businesses.
• Acting in a non-Executive Director capacity when requestedtodo so.
Those were the principal service headings under which I operated in the name of Business
Enterprises Limitedfrom December 1975 until my retirement on the 31 October 1998. This
business was busy, demanding and successful. Typically, it occupied well over 100% of 50-
hour weeks.
2.- The service I gave to persons who wished to holdftmds offshore.
Involvement with the savings of clients in any capacity whatsoever was not envisaged in my
original plan. When in due course I agreed to provide a service I required that it be on a
minimalist basis. Towards thid my stipulations were:
• Funds would be deposited in licensed banks at rates of interest that would be competitive and
market related. This empowered depositors to be satisfied concerning both safety and
interest rates.
• All decisions in relation to movements in these funds would be conveyed to me directly and
orally by the person concerned;
® I would undertake no advisory or management role in relation to these fhnds and this fact
was communicated to each person with particular reference to decisions that concerned the
buying or selling of investments.
• I would neither' issue'nor obtain receiptsfor. movements in funds. Neither would I keep any
ledger records, issue statements or engage in correspondence.
• Information in relation to balances and rates of interest would be provided on an oral basis
only.
• Originally, no charge was envisagedfor this service but over time it became necessary to
recover costs on a case by case basis.
My operating procedurefor this service had butfour components:
• A deposit account in G&M that I have described as a hoteitpotch account.

• A manual memorandum record I kept in my office under my personal control.
• Afloat account in AIB.
• A monthly reconciliation of the sum of the memorandum records with the sum of the
accounts) in G&M and any float balances.
In the interest of completeness perixaps I should add also:
• G&M would be aware of the totalfluids I had in my hotchpotch account

• G&M would not be aware of the names of the depositors whose funds, in aggregate,
comprised the balance in the hotchpotch account albeit that a name and an amount could
surface as part of another business transaction with the bank, e.g. a back-to-back loan.
• Some of my clients would be aware generally that thefiwds they held offshore were in a
G&M vehicle. Other clients would be aware that their funds were ofEshore but would have
no awareness or care about the name of the bank in which their money was deposited.
• Only I knew the names in the memorandum account and only I knew the ownership of the
balance in thefloat account kept in AIB.
5. The information requested by Ma. Mackey on the 6 December 2000.
The information requested by Ms. Mackey on 6 December'2000 is given in the three schedules
that are appended to this letter.
Schedule 1 relates to the list of names I sent to the Inspectors on 6 November 2000. All on this
schedule had oflshore deposits in G&M through my procedure.
Yours sincerely,
SCHEDULE 1
Name. Offshore Back to Data Deposit DatsDaposrt Source of Funds Source of Funds
Deposits Back loan. Opened Closed - Offshore Irish Pounds.
Michael Leyden. Yea. PoeslUy. c. 1978. On death mid 60s. AH. None.
By wife c. 1887/88.
c
7th April, 1976
It«m 88(C) Leyden T a r — Liaited

Agreed to advance Loan of up to £40,000 - suitably secured.
. !.
K
i
Appendix XV (65) (l)(f)
n W G EDtf (g/iMiffef /iêfwfc l^w
402
PRESENT:
8th April, 1976.
J.H.G., T.G.L.F. (Part tiae), J.D.T., M.E.O'K.

e
REPORTED DETAILS
Leydan Fa m a
Limited. J.D.T. Agreed t o advance l o a n of up t o
£40,000, suitably ••cured.
Autbacfaer I'wptf*
A Mtntktf ^f tkt Sutff AMktthtf MAp WCifcttalfciif
PA W . OMd CqpM. M h k WM M h i
PImmreplyto:
42 Ftttwttliam Square,
DubUnZ tac CMP) N^TM
QMIMMKT
TW: 765144/76306S
Rnu 6120M
4th April, 1990.

H. David Humphries, Esq. r
Guinness t Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DOBLIW 2.
Dear David,
could you plMM arrange tha issue of a Starling Draft for
Stg.878,000.00 payable to Leyden (Scunthorpe) Linlted and
debit Ansbacher Limited Account Ho.13154602.
X would like to have this Draft collected on Friday morning
please.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Travnor.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (65) (1) (h)
r^
A Mmbtr of Om Hurry Aiubtdm Hokbtgj PLC Mtrchmu tanking Group
Please reply to: P.O. Box IT. Onod Cayman, British W«t lndin
Phoar. (109) 94M6S3- 4
42 FitzwQliam Square, T«t«c CP430S
Dublin! Fas (109) 949-7946
(109) 949-3267
Tel: 765144/763065
Far 612035
G a r r e t t Logan, E s q . ,
I r i s h I n t e r c o n t i n e n t a l Bank L i m i t e d ,
91 Merrion S q u a r e ,
DUBLIN 2 .
Dear G a r r e t t ,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o l e t me have for c o l l e c t i o n two
S t e r l i n g D r a f t s a s follow:
P a y a b l e t o A. Bennett £1 ,640.000TtO'Vl.O6'
P a y a b l e t o D. Leyden £8,550.0<^\.o'UO>
P l e a s e d e b i t t h e c o s t of each t o Ansbacher Limited Account
No.02/01087/81.
Yours f i n c e r e l y ,
n * SxXO
tlx ANSBACHER LIMITED
DPC/AJW
Appendix XV (65) (l)(i)
#r
.'i 5 - -
40
LeydeaFcnnsLid.
40
Michael Leyden
Wr
if
Ii,
11.
f^r
> t1
f • '
fm-l
r
m -
Michael Leyden
31s-
Michael Leyden
Appendix XV (66) Mr James Henry Lindsay
James Henry Lindsay.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr James Henry (John Harold) Lindsay dated 24

March 2000.
b) Guinness and Mahon statement of 19 February 1987 re GMCT.
c) Telefax of 31 March 1994 - Cayman International Bank & Trust Group

Limited to IIB.
d) Letter of 13 October 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr James Henry Lindsay.
a) Letter of 3 December 2001 - Gore & Grimes Solicitors to the Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JAMES HENRY LINDSAY
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 24TH MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY
Represented by: MR. KARL HAYES
GORE & GRIMES

I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. J. LINDSAY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS ON TUESDAY,
2 2 4TH MARCH 2 000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, we will start
5 our interview.
6 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is Declan Costello
8 and Ms. Mackey is on my
9 right. We are the Inspectors, two of the
10 Inspectors, appointed by The High Court, as you
11 know.
12 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you
14 that this is not a Court.
15 It is not a tribunal.
16 MR. LINDSAY: Right.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is an investigation.
18 MR. LINDSAY: Sure.
19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If in the course of the
20 questions that we ask, you
21 wish to consult with your solicitor please tell me
22 that you wish to consult and we will stop the
23 questioning while to do so.
24 MR. LINDSAY: Yes.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If your solicitor wishes
26 to consult with you he can
27 indicate this to me and we will stop questioning for
28 that purpose.
29 MR. LINDSAY: Right, Okay.
4
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, in this
2 investigation your
3 evidence will be taken under oath and I will ask our
4 solicitor now, Ms. Cummins, to administer the oath
5 to you.
6 MR. LINDSAY: Yes. Do I stand up?
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No, it is all right.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS
2 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, there is
5 one preliminary matter
6 that I want to raise with you?
7 A. Yes.
8 2 Q. In our letter to you we asked you for a detailed
9 statement about your relationship with "Ansbacher"
10 and we have not received any statement?
11 A. Just a moment ago Mr. Hayes here mentioned that to
12 me.
13 3 Q. Yes?
14 A. There was a chap in Deloitte Touche called
15 Eamonn Coates and I understood from him that he had
16 made the arrangement that I come here and, in fact,
17 that was it. I looked through that.
18 4 Q. However, Mr. Lindsay it could not be clearer. We
19 asked in our letter to you for a full and detailed
20 statement of all the dealings that the company had
21 with you either directly or indirectly. What was
22 the problem about giving us a statement?
23 A. Absolutely no problem. I mean it is a stupid thing
24 to say but I didn't even see that because what I
25 immediately did was I got in touch
26 with Eamonn Coates.
27 5 Q. What is his name?
28 A. Eamonn Coates.
29 6 Q. Coates?
6
1 A. He is with Deloitte Touche.
2 7 Q. Yes?
3 A. They were our accountants.
4 8 Q. Yes?
5 A. And I understood that he had contacted this office
6 here. He said, "What you have to do now is turn up
7 on the 24th".
8 9 Q. Yes. Did he not advise you that you should make a
9 statement?
10 A. No, he did not.
11 10 Q. Did you not see this in the letter?
12 A. No, I didn't. I must admit that when I saw so much
13 of this letter I thought, "Well, this is something
14 for my accountant".
15 11 Q. Yes. Perhaps, you can outline now to us?
17 12 Q. What your...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. In other words my understanding...(INTERJECTION).
19 13 Q. No, sorry, just wait now. Just before we go on. We
20 also asked for all the documents that you had?
21 A. I don't have any documents. I haven't had for maybe
22 ten years or so.
23 14 Q. Who were your accountants?
24 A. Deloitte Touche.
25 15 Q. From 1979?
26 A. From before that.
27 16 Q. From before that?
28 A. Yes.
29 17 Q. Have you asked them have they any records or
7
1 documents ?
2 A. No, but I presume they have the records, all our tax
3 records.
4 18 Q. Yes. However, also all your relationships with the
5 company, would they not have?
6 A. With which company now?
7 19 Q. With "Ansbacher"?
8 A. I don't think we had any relationship with
9 "Ansbacher".
10 20 Q. Do you not?
11 A. I don't think so.
12 21 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. Because at the time when our
14 company...(INTERJECTION).
15 22 Q. No, I am talking about your company. I am talking
16 about you personally?
17 A. No, I know personally. When it went belly up --
18 that I think was about the time that
19 Guinness & Mahon became involved with "Ansbacher".
20 23 Q. Are you saying that you had no relationship at all
21 with the company, with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
22 Company, which subsequently changed its name
23 to "Ansbacher"?
24 A. Yes, certainly with Guinness & Mahon, yes.
25 24 Q. No?
26 A. Very much so.
27 25 Q. No, I am asking: Did you have any relationship with
28 the company itself, with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
29 Limited?
1 A. Yes, Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, yes.
2 26 Q. You did?
3 A. Yes.
4 27 Q. Personally?
5 A. No. Well, the company.
6 28 Q. No, no. Leave the company. I am not asking you
7 about the company, Mr. Lindsay?
8 A. Yes.
9 29 Q. I am asking you personally. Did you not have a
10 personal relationship?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 30 Q. You did?
13 A. Yes, subsequent -- well, we will come to that.
14 31 Q. How are we to carry out this investigation if you
15 have not given us the documents?
16 A. But I haven't got any documents.
17 32 Q. Your accountants have?
18 A. I presume they have.
19 33 Q. Very well then. Tell us about your own personal
20 relationship with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
21 Limited?
22 A. Right, Cayman -- you see that is subsequent to the
23 Super Ser business.
24 34 Q. Yes?
25 A. Because when the Super Ser business went flat I got
26 a job in Bangladesh and during that time I had
27 problems at home. My wife was looking for a divorce
28 and she had a Court Order at one time that I
29 couldn't issue any cheques.
9
1 35 Q. What year are we talking about?
2 A. 1986 or 1987 I would think, somewhere about there.
3 I had three kids in college in America and they had
4 to be paid.
5 36 Q. What are their names?
6 A. Ann Lindsay.
7 37 Q. Alan?
8 A. Ann.
9 38 Q. Ann?
10 A. Ann, yes.
11 39 Q. Yes?
12 A. And she was in a university called Highland
13 University near Alberqueque New Mexico.
14 40 Q. Yes?
15 A. Now, she wouldn't go over there unless her boyfriend
16 went with her.
17 41 Q. We need not go into these details. What were the
18 other sons?
19 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).
20 42 Q. Had you sons?
21 A. Yes.
22 43 Q. What were their names?
23 A. Yes, Ralph Lindsay.
24 44 Q. Yes?
25 A. And he was in Washington State University doing
26 forestry.
27 45 Q. Had you another son?
28 A. Yes, Alan.
29 46 Q. Alan?
10
1 A. He lives in Spain.
2 47 Q. Yes. You were saying then that something happened
3 in 1986?
4 A. Yes. I rang up Mr. Traynor and said, "I have got a
5 problem here and any money that I have sent to a
6 bank or to Dublin I can't write a cheque on it."
7 So, he said, "You just get the money sent to me and
8 I will sort that out," which he did. It was in
9 Cayman and that is how I became involved with --
10 personally now, that is how I became involved with
11 Guinness & Mahon Cayman.
12 48 Q. Yes. Tell us what the arrangement was?
13 A. The arrangement was that the money would be sent to
14 him and then whenever I wanted money sent to pay
15 school fees or anything like that he would forward
16 the money.
17 49 Q. Yes. Did he tell you what he was going to do with
18 the money? You forwarded money to him?
19 A. Yes .
20 50 Q. Did he tell you what he was going to do with it?
21 A. No. He was going to pay any bills that I wanted
22 paid out of it.
23 51 Q. Did he tell you it was going into the Cayman, the
24 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Company?
25 A. I don't remember him using that term actually
26 but...(INTERJECTION).
27 52 Q. What did you understand, Mr. Lindsay?
28 A. Well, in those days -- I mean I certainly hadn't the
29 same understanding of Cayman.

1 53 Q. Mr. Lindsay, what did you understand that he was
2 going to do with the money? Where was he putting
3 it? Where was he going to deposit it?
4 A. I honestly don't know. I presume it was Cayman.
5 54 Q. Yes?
6 A. Because it was out of the jurisdiction of the
7 Court Order that was against me.
8 55 Q. Yes. Tell me everything now that you can about this
9 arrangement?
10 A. Well, that worked okay. All the fees were paid and
11 all the rest of it. Each of the three were four
12 years in college and when it was more or less over
13 there was a remainder and I said -- I had a son in
14 Spain who was getting married and I got the
15 remainder sent to him to buy his house.
16 56 Q. Yes.
17 A. That was the end of that association.
18 57 Q. Yes. Did you enter into any Trust Deed in relation
19 to this arrangement?
20 A. No, none at all.
21 58 Q. You just... (INTERJECTION) ?
22 A. It was just done...(INTERJECTION).
23 59 Q. You just handed on money to Mr. Traynor?
24 A. Yes, and that was the way I had dealt with him from
25 the very beginning.
26 60 Q. Yes. Did you pay any tax on the interest that the
27 money earned?
28 A. No. I don't even know if it did earn interest.
29 61 Q. Mr. Lindsay, I want to put some documents now to you
12
1 that have come into our possession as a result of
2 the investigation. This is the first ledger
3 "Resident & Non-Resident Loans". It is one that
4 is 1973. If you would hand that up to him
5 (Same handed)?
6 A. Thank you.
7 62 Q. No, no. It is not that.
8 MS CUMMINS: It is, Judge, I have taken
9 the names out of it just.
10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, all right. Hand it
11 up (Same Handed).
12 A. Thank you.
13 63 Q. Sorry, would you just give me that back please. It
14 does not matter about the names Ms. Cummins. Show
15 me that letter? It does not matter about the names.
16 Just hand it up (Exhibit 1) (Same handed)?
17 A. Yes .
18 64 Q. This is a record from Guinness & Mahon here in
19 Ireland?
20 A. Yes .
21 65 Q. It is a record of "Resident & Non-Resident Loans"?
22 A. Yes .
23 66 Q. It refers to you Mr. Lindsay, "J. H. Lindsay," and
24 it is a loan of £17,000. There is a balance on the
25 loan of £17,445.80. You will see that the repayment
26 date is 1973 and then the comment "suitably
27 secured," is written after it. This is a loan in
28 1973 to you personally?
29 A. Yes .
1 67 Q. By Guinness & Mahon?
2 A. Maybe. I don't know.
4 A. No, I don't.
5 69 Q. You see the information which we have obtained
6 Mr. Lindsay is that the phrase "suitably secured",
7 means that it was a cash back loan and that it was
8 on a deposit in the name of Guinness Mahon Cayman
9 Trust Limited?
10 A. Yes .
11 70 Q. That is what the "suitably secured" means. If this
12 is so this would appear that you had a loan from
13 Guinness & Mahon as far back as 1973 that was
14 secured on -- that was cash backed?
15 A. The only security that Guinness & Mahon ever got
16 from us was -- I know I have to answer you directly
17 but may I go just a little bit beyond that?
18 71 Q. Yes?
19 A. When we first of all got the agencies for these
20 units, these heaters, portable gas heaters.
21 72 Q. Yes?
22 A. We brought some of them home and they -- obviously
23 there was an interest in them and over a year they
24 started to, you know, sell. We then felt that if we
25 could get in a big number of these we could
26 definitely sell them.
27 73 Q. Yes?
28 A. So, I went to the Bank Of Ireland, which was my bank
29 and my father's bank and my grandfather's bank, but

1 any way they wouldn't give us the money. As a
2 matter of fact it might have been -- I don't know if
3 that would fit in with that or not but it might have
4 been about £17,000. It was a big sum then.
5 74 Q. Yes?
6 A. And we were with Haughey Boland then. They were our
7 accountants and they sent us to Guinness & Mahon and
8 there I met Mr. Traynor. He said, "Can you
9 definitely sell these?" I said, "Yes, absolutely,
10 definitely." He said, "What proof can you give me?"
11 I said, "Well, Calor Kosangas have said that they
12 would take a percentage of them." He said, "You get
13 me a substantial order from Calor Kosangas and I
14 will give you the money".
15 75 Q. Yes?
16 A. So, I went to Calor Kosangas and they agreed to take
17 them and I gave him the thing and he gave us the
18 money.
19 76 Q. This is you? You say "us" Mr. Lindsay?
20 A. Yes, the firm.
21 77 Q. No. However, this is not a loan to your firm. I
22 will come to the loans to the firm in a minute. I
23 am talking -- this is a personal loan to you?
24 A. Well, maybe at that stage it was a personal loan.
25 78 Q. Yes?
26 A. I don't even know if we were a firm then.
27 79 Q. You see the phrase "suitably secured"?
28 A. Yes, I do.
29 80 Q. Which I have drawn your attention to?

1 A. Yes .
2 81 Q. Did Mr. Traynor then make the arrangement that you
3 were to transfer money to the Cayman Islands?
4 A. No, he never mentioned that.
5 82 Q. You say that was in 1986?
6 A. That was -- yes, that was much later.
7 83 Q. I see. You see I have to suggest to you that this
8 loan was continued on Mr. Lindsay and that the
9 documents show that you were still indebted
10 to Guinness & Mahon in 1975. That is the first one.
11 Perhaps, I gave you the wrong date. It was 1973,
12 that was the repayment date. Would you look at the
13 other document "J. H. Lindsay" (Same Handed)?
14 A. Thank you.
15 84 Q. Again, "suitable secured". I must suggest to you
16 Mr. Lindsay that that loan, probably it was the same
17 loan, was secured by a Cayman deposit?
18 A. No, it wasn't. The only security, as I say, that we
19 ever gave Guinness & Mahon, and it happened again
20 later, was in the form that he would advance money
21 against orders.
22 85 Q. Mr. Lindsay, may I refer you to another document.
23 Ms. Cummins, it is the ledger account for 1987. It
24 shows a draft issue to Mr. Lindsay (Exhibit 2)(Same
25 Handed)?
26 A. Thank you.
27 86 Q. Do you see that?
28 A. Yes. When was this, 19...(INTERJECTION)?
29 87 Q. 1987?
16
1 A. 1987.
2 88 Q. I will just show you what this document is. It is a
3 ledger account in Dublin of Guinness & Mahon. It is
4 the account of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.
5 Do you see that on the left-hand side, the top on
6 the left-hand side?
7 A. Yes.
8 89 Q. Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 90 Q. You see it is a sterling account. That Guinness
11 Mahon Cayman Trust Limited had in Guinness & Mahon
12 Limited?
13 A. Yes.
14 91 Q. Do you see about a third of the way down on the
15 left-hand side in February 1987;
16 "draft issued to J. H. Lindsay"?
17
18 A. Yes.
19 92 Q. £13,411?
20 A. I don't think the figure is there, but is it?
21 93 Q. Perhaps, it is the wrong figure?
22 A. Yes.
23 94 Q. Sorry. It is £1,000. I am sorry I am misreading
24 it.
25 A. £1,000.
26 95 Q. It is £1,066?
27 A. £1,066.
28 96 Q. Yes?
29 A. Yes.
17
1 97 Q. Is that not a draft issued to you for £1,066.26 from
2 the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited account?
3 A. I don't know what it is. I could make suggestions.
4 98 Q. Just look at it now. Does it not appear that the
5 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited account is
6 debited with this figure, this draft, which is
7 payable to you?
8 A. Yes, but by this stage the company had an account in
9 Cayman.
10 99 Q. I am just asking you about this payment to you, out
11 to you personally?
12 A. I have no idea. I mean it could have been for
13 tickets, air tickets, or I don't know.
14 100 Q. Out of the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
15 account?
16 A. Out of our account in the Cayman.
17 101 Q. No, this is your personal payment, a payment to you,
18 out of the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited?
19 A. I have no idea why they put that there.
20 102 Q. Yes?
21 A. I have no idea at all.
22 103 Q. All right. I want you to look at page 29. It is a
23 report about H. Lindsay (Exhibit 3)(Same Handed)?
24 A. Thank you.
25 104 Q. I want to explain to you what this document is
26 Mr. Lindsay?
27 A. Yes.
28 105 Q. This is a report from Guinness & Mahon. It is 1978,
29 April 1978?
18
1 A. Yes.
2 106 Q. It is a report to The Central Bank by
3 Guinness & Mahon. It is describing its major loans
4 to the bank?
5 A. Yes.
6 107 Q. To The Central Bank. It has there,
7 "H. Lindsay - £156,537".
9 That is you. You are described as:
10 "Mr. Lindsay is a major shareholder in

Super Ser Limited."?
11
12 A. Yes.
13 108 Q. Is that you?
14 A. Yes, I was a 50% shareholder.
15 109 Q. Yes. It says the purpose of the loan was
16 "personal loan/working capital".
17
18 Do you remember that loan?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 110 Q. Do you see it says that securities are held?
21 A. Securities,
22 "Guarantees are held up to £175,000..."
23
24 111 Q. Guarantees?
25 A. Yes.
26 112 Q. Yes. Then it goes on:
27 "Comment: Guinness & Mahon are happy

to continue this facility to
28 Mr. Lindsay. No facility letter was
available in respect of this loan which
29 was arranged personally by
Mr. Traynor."
19
2 Can you remember that?
3 A. I mean I never got £156,000 or £175,000 from
4 Guinness & Mahon personally. I can only suggest
5 that they are confusing the company and me.
6 113 Q. Would you turn over the page to the next page
7 (Same Handed)?
8 A. Yes.
9 114 Q. This is a continuation and it talks about:
10 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay - £1,336,023"
11
12 and,
13 "Super Ser Limited - £1,179,486".
14
15 These are loans to, it says,
16 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay"?
17
18 A. Yes, all right. I don't see it.
19 115 Q. Do you remember...(INTERJECTION).
20 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
21 116 Q. Do you remember a substantial loan of £1.3 million?
22 A. No, I don't but I can imagine circumstances in which
23 it could have happened.
24 117 Q. Yes. The document says:
25 "Super Ser/H. Lindsay"?
26
27 A. Yes.
28 118 Q. Was it to you personally or to the company?
29 A. Well, I never got anything like that.
20
1 119 Q. You never got it?
2 A. No.
3 120 Q. You were mentioning that the company had deposits.
4 Do you see,
5 "Security: Super Ser Limited has

deposits of around £400,000 with
6 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited"?
8 A. Yes.
9 121 Q. That is what you are referring to? That seems to
10 have -- the company seems to have had deposits in
11 the Cayman Islands in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
12 Limited?
13 A. Yes.
14 122 Q. Do you see this was in 1978?
15 A. 1978, maybe.
16 123 Q. I should explain to you that I am not
17 investigating...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. No.
19 124 Q. We are not investigating the company today?
20 A. Yes.
21 125 Q. I am investigating your personal affairs?
22 A. Yes, all right.
23 126 Q. However, you referred to the fact that the company
24 had deposits?
25 A. Yes.
26 127 Q. I am just drawing your attention to this fact?
27 A. Yes. May I explain some of the intertwining?
28 128 Q. Yes, do?
29 A. Well, we started off selling heaters here and we had
21
1 an Irish company.
2 129 Q. What was the name of it?
3 A. Super Ser Limited.
4 130 Q. Super Ser Limited?
5 A. Yes.
6 131 Q. It was incorporated in Ireland?
7 A. Yes.
8 132 Q. And when you say "we" who was "we"?
9 A. A man called Goosen.
10 133 Q. Yes?
11 A. And myself.
12 134 Q. Yes?
13 A. We were 50/50 in it.
14 135 Q. Yes?
15 A. Then things began to dry up a bit here and we went
16 to England.
17 136 Q. Yes?
18 A. Mr. Goosen went to England and he started the same
19 thing there and I was also 50/50 in that.
20 137 Q. Yes?
21 A. Now, that sold an awful lot more stuff than we sold
22 in Ireland.
23 138 Q. What was the name of that company?
24 A. I think it was Super Ser UK Limited.
25 139 Q. Yes?
26 A. Or something.
27 140 Q. Yes?
28 A. Yes, and then subsequently we decided that our sales
29 were slowing down, and as the people who supplied us
22
1 with these heaters were getting more and more
2 expensive, and as more and more competition was
3 coming on the market it was, you know, really very
4 difficult for us to deal with Super Ser Spain
5 anymore. So, we decided to build a factory, which
6 we built.
7 141 Q. Where?
8 A. In Tallaght.
9 142 Q. Yes?
10 A. And we completely equipped that and we started to
11 make our own heaters.
12 143 Q. Was that Mr. Goosen and yourself?
13 A. Yes .
14 144 Q. Was that in Super Ser Limited or another company?
15 A. No, I am not quite sure what we called ourselves
16 then but the product that we made was Ardant,
17 A-r-d-a-n-t.
18 145 Q. Yes?
19 A. A-n-t, we were not allowed to have E-n-t.
20 146 Q. When was that Mr. Lindsay?
21 A. I don't know. It might have been somewhere around
22 1978/1980.
23 147 Q. Could the loans that are referred to here, in this
24 document, be loans in respect of the building of the
25 factory?
26 A. It could be but I am not saying definitely it is.
27 148 Q. Yes?
28 A. We now had a factory and we had a lot of people
29 working in it and we had an expensive Research &
23
1 Development Department, and it got to the point
2 where we had to sell 70,000 units before we broke
3 even.
4 149 Q. Could I just interrupt you? What is the name of the
5 company that you are talking about?
6 A. Our factory?
7 150 Q. What was the name of the company?
8 A. I think it was Ardant.
9 151 Q. Ardant?
10 A. A-r-d-a-n-t.
11 152 Q. Limited?
12 A. Yes .
13 153 Q. It was a separate factory. Did Super Ser Limited
14 remain in business?
15 A. No, no, that ran down.
16 154 Q. Yes?
17 A. So, in other words what we were doing was supplying
18 our customers from Tallaght instead of from Spain.
19 155 Q. Yes?
20 A. But it became obvious then that -- when we started
21 to sell the heaters a bottle of gas was 18 shillings
22 or a pound or something like that, and that would
23 enable a person to give some measure of heat to a
24 house for a week.
25 156 Q. Yes?
26 A. But by this time now, up about around 1980 or
27 thereabouts, it was something like £10 for a bottle
28 of gas and that plus the fact that they do not wear
29 out the place got saturated, we knew we had to get
24
1 markets somewhere else. So, I went to America to
2 see what could be done there but the sale of unflued
3 gas heaters was forbidden there. I went there and
4 there was a man in the United States who is in
5 charge of all standards.
6 157 Q. If I could interrupt you Mr. Lindsay? I am not
7 today concerned about the company liabilities?
8 A. Yes, right.
9 158 Q. I am concerned about your own personal liabilities?
10 A. Yes, right, yes.
11 159 Q. And your arrangements, your own personal
12 arrangements ?
13 A. Yes .
14 160 Q. With Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited and
15 subsequently "Ansbacher"?
16 A. Yes .
17 161 Q. So unless what you are telling me now is something
18 to do...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. Well, I think it is.
20 162 Q. With your personal...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. Well, I think -- yes, I think it has, in so much as
22 eventually we were successful and we were the only
23 company, not Japanese, German, Italian or Spanish,
24 nothing -- we were the only company to get a heater
25 passed for the United States.
26 163 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. And then we started a company in the Unites States
28 and we appointed a man, an accountant.

1 A. Well, I now -- It probably has our own name. I am
2 not too sure but I know the name of the product that
3 we sold was the Shamrock heater.
4 165 Q. However, again, I want to explain to you Mr. Lindsay
5 that I am concerned about your own
6 personal...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Yes .
8 166 Q. Relationship with Cayman?
9 A. Sure.
10 167 Q. I am not quite certain what relevance this has?
11 A. Well, when we started the factory, or the company in
12 America, a man called John Grace was the man we
13 appointed to run it.
14 168 Q. Yes?
15 A. And we transferred money from England, from
16 Super Ser UK because they had more money in their
17 account than we had, to start this American company.
18 Although I was never in Cayman I understood that
19 this bank, that was looking after us was in Cayman.
20 169 Q. Yes?
21 A. But may I say that -- I mean in those days Cayman
22 was just a name of another bank. It didn't have the
23 sort of ramifications that it has today.
24 170 Q. Mr. Lindsay, would you look at another document?
25 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 4). I will explain what this
26 document is to you. This is from Mr. Furze. Do you
27 know who Mr. Furze is?
28 A. I never met him but I knew who he was.
29 171 Q. You know the name?

1 A. Yes.
2 172 Q. He is, in fact, a Managing Director, one of the
3 Managing Directors of the Guinness Mahon Cayman
4 Trust Company in Cayman?
5 A. Yes, I knew he was associated with Des Traynor.
6 173 Q. Yes. That is from Mr. Furze?
7 A. Right.
8 174 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. Alan Lindsay, that is it.
10 175 Q. Yes?
11 A. That is what I was talking about, I am sure.
12 176 Q. This is a transfer of £270,000:
13 "Should be grateful if you would

arrange the transfer of Stg£270,000
14 to..."
15
16 Barcelona?
17 A. Yes.
18 177 Q. This is the account of an Alan Lindsay?
19 A. Yes.
20 178 Q. This is from The Irish Intercontinental Bank
21 Limited?
22 A. Well, now, I never had anything to do with
23 Intercontinental Bank.
24 179 Q. You may not have known it but the account which you
25 could draw on?
26 A. Yes.
27 180 Q. Was at that time -- it had been moved to The Irish
28 Intercontinental Bank?
29 A. Yes.
27
1 181 Q. This is the sum of money that you paid to your son,
2 is that right?
3 A. Yes .
4 182 Q. This was paid out of the account of Guinness Mahon
5 Cayman Trust in IIB?
6 A. Yes .
7 183 Q. You see the debit?
8 A. Yes .
9 184 Q. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes. Is it of any interest where I got that money?
11 185 Q. Sorry?
12 A. Is it of any interest where I got that money?
13 186 Q. If you want to tell me, yes?
14 A. I know you want to stick directly on the point.
15 187 Q. Yes. I want to stick to your
17 A. Yes. First of all the business, the heater
18 business, in the United States blossomed. It went
19 tremendously and then suddenly all the gas
20 suppliers, all the Seven Sisters as they call
21 themselves, stopped the supply of gas for portable
22 gas heaters because it says -- in the States the
23 legal position was that people would start wheeling
24 them up against curtains and so forth and it was too
25 liable for claims and they had ordered that the
26 supply of gas for heaters to be stopped. So, in one
27 day our business was stopped.
28 188 Q. Yes?
29 A. Then after that I had to do something and I got a

1 job as a production engineer.
2 189 Q. I am sorry. I am going to stop you Mr. Lindsay
3 because I just am concerned to obtain evidence from
4 you about your relationship with Guinness Mahon
5 Cayman Trust Limited?
6 A. Yes .
7 190 Q. It looks as if you had £270,000?
8 A. £270,000, yes.
9 191 Q. There?
10 A. Yes .
11 192 Q. Which was transferred to your son?
12 A. And that was after I had paid for three children.
13 193 Q. Yes?
14 A. For four years.
15 194 Q. Yes. However, what I am suggesting to you, perhaps
16 you could comment on it Mr. Lindsay, is that it is
17 extremely unlikely that a sum of that magnitude
18 would not be earning interest?
19 A. I never got any documents. I never got a sheet of
20 paper. It was absolutely trust and I trusted
21 Des Traynor.
22 195 Q. I am sure of that?
23 A. And I would trust him again.
24 196 Q. I am sure of that. However, Mr. Lindsay what I am
25 suggesting to you is that it is extremely unlikely
26 that that sum, which was on deposit in the
27 Cayman Islands, did not earn interest?
28 A. I have absolutely -- I never got any indication that
29 it was. He was doing me a favour.
29
1 197 Q. What did you think? What did you think? What is
2 your thought now about this?
3 A. Well, I am wiser now than I...(INTERJECTION).
4 198 Q. What do you think now?
5 A. Well, if I had a ton of money to invest now I would
6 want interest on it but in those days he was doing
7 me a favour.
8 199 Q. Yes. If you would just have a look at another
9 letter there (Exhibit 5)(Same Handed)?
10 A. Yes.
11 200 Q. It is the 1992 letter and it is to Mr. Redmond in
12 The Irish Intercontinental Bank. It is from
13 "Ansbacher" here in Dublin, 42 Fitzwilliam Square.
14 It is a letter to him stating:
15 "Could you please arrange to let me

have for collection a U.S. Dollar
16 cheque for US$2,315.00 payable to Ralph
Lindsay and debit the Sterling cost to
17 "Ansbacher"..."
18
19 That is your son Ralph?
20 A. Yes, that is one that was in college in America.
21 201 Q. This is in 1992 and you are drawing from the
22 "Ansbacher" account in IIB in this sum of $2,315?
23 A. Well, obviously it is from the same account in the
24 Cayman.
25 202 Q. Yes, yes. However, you have control of it and you
26 are directing that that sum be paid to you son?
27 A. Yes. All I ever had to do was just ring Mr. Traynor
28 and tell him that I wanted this money.
29 203 Q. Yes?
30
1 A. Its seem quite incredible now but I mean he would
2 even say, "What do you want it for?" you know.
3 204 Q. Yes. Did you do this frequently? Did you ask him
4 for money frequently?
5 A. No, infrequently.
6 205 Q. Infrequently?
7 A. As a matter of fact that sum that I sent, that I got
8 sent, to him when I was working in Bangladesh. I
9 was working for an American firm in Bangladesh
10 otherwise I wouldn't have got that money.
11 206 Q. Yes?
12 A. But as a matter of fact, you know, I certainly don't
13 remember that but I mean it is quite possible that
14 he wanted $2,000 for something or another.
15 207 Q. I want you to refer to one other document now,
16 Mr. Lindsay (Exhibit 6)(Same Handed)?
17 A. Yes.
18 208 Q. You see that this again a ledger account of
19 Guinness & Mahon Limited. Do you see, on the
20 left-hand side, that it is an account "Amiens
21 Limited." Then on the 31st October 1986
22 "J.H. Lindsay - £1,000 debit"?
23 A. Sorry, what is Amiens?
24 209 Q. I will tell you now in a moment?
25 A. Yes.
26 210 Q. What I want to suggest to you is that from
27 Amiens Limited it would appear that £1,000 was paid
28 to you in 1986?
29 A. I never heard of Amiens.
31
1 211 Q. Yes. I will come to that in a moment. However, do
2 you recall receiving a payment yourself of £1,000,
3 organised by Mr. Traynor?
4 A. I don't.
5 212 Q. You could have though? I mean it is a long time
6 ago?
7 A. I could have.
8 213 Q. You could have?
9 A. Yes.
10 214 Q. What Amiens Limited was, Mr. Lindsay, was an account
11 which Des Traynor, Mr. Desmond Traynor, operated?
12 A. Yes.
13 215 Q. He used this account by transfering from
14 "Ansbacher's" account in Guinness & Mahon into
15 Amiens and paying clients of "Ansbacher" out of the
16 Amiens. That is why I am asking you about this?
17 A. Yes.
18 216 Q. This was a payment to you. This would appear to be
19 a payment to you organised by Mr. Traynor of £1,000?
20 A. If it is there it must have happened but I
21 can't...(INTERJECTION).
22 217 Q. You cannot remember?
23 A. I mean £1,000, it wouldn't be the sort of sum that I
24 would be going to Des Traynor really looking for,
25 you know.
26 218 Q. Yes?
27 A. Unless it was like in America where if I wanted
28 monies sent to Ralph or to my daughter and that.
29 219 Q. You would have obtained it?
32
1 A. Yes .
2 220 Q. And you would have sent it?
3 A. Yes .
4 221 Q. Mr. Lindsay, what we have been doing is breaking for
5 a short time for a coffee break?
6 A. Yes .
7 222 Q. What I would suggest is that we break for about ten
8 minutes now and you can have a cup of coffee if you
9 would like it?
10 A. Thank you.
11 223 Q. We have not got very much more to ask you. However,
12 if we could come back in ten minutes.
13 A. Yes .
14
16
17 224 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lindsay, we will
18 resume our interview now.
19 I understand, Mr. Hayes, that you would like to
20 clarify something with us?
21 MR. HAYES: Indeed if I may Inspector?
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.
23 MR. HAYES: Well, it is entirely our
24 fault because we have not
25 given you a written statement as we should have.
27 MR. HAYES: We will rectify that.
29 MR. HAYES: I only came into it

1 recently on that aspect.
3 MR. HAYES: However, from hearing
4 these questions -- I mean
5 I think there is one aspect that does need to be
6 clarified.
8 MR. HAYES: And it is this.
10 MR. HAYES: That, and I am authorized
11 by Mr. Lindsay to say
12 this, from the very start of his involvement with
13 Mr. Traynor and "Ansbacher" -- sorry, Guinness &
14 Mahon which became "Ansbacher" and so forth, that
15 was entirely a business affair, if I might put it as
16 such.
18 MR. HAYES: Up to the time when the
19 business ceased and
20 Mr. Lindsay moved to Bangladesh.
22 MR. HAYES: Unfortunately,
23 Mr. Lindsay's grasp of
24 dates is -- we will have to check records and try
25 and get the exact dates but all of the dealings with
26 Mr. Traynor were to do with his companies, which
27 were Super Ser...(INTERJECTION)
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I do not want to interrupt
29 you Mr. Hayes.
34
1 MR. HAYES: Yes.
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we have put
3 certain documents to
4 Mr. Lindsay which gives certain dates.
5 MR. HAYES: Yes.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I do not think it would be
7 appropriate for you to be
8 giving us evidence that your client may have told
9 you about. We have to go on the evidence that the
10 witness gives us.
11 MR. HAYES: Yes.
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And if he cannot remember
13 we take that into account.
14 MR. HAYES: Yes.
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, it would help us
16 if you could get a
17 detailed statement, if he could prepare a detailed
18 statement.
19 MR. HAYES: Yes, we will do that.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. Also it would help
21 us if he would get the
22 documents from his accountants because we would
23 require all the documents that the accountants have.
24 MR. HAYES: Yes. As I say I only came
25 into this fairly recently
26 myself. I will attend to that.
28 MR. HAYES: What I am trying to
29 achieve just here is the
35
1 background.
3 MR. HAYES: I do not want to give
4 evidence or anything like
5 that.
7 MR. HAYES: And the statement will
8 make it clear that his
9 dealings with the bank were of -- I mean I have seen
10 the documents and I have seen reference to him
11 personally and, of course, but there does seem to be
12 a confusion about that. It is that when it refers
13 to him it should really have referred
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is what you say.
16 However, we have to decide
17 that.
18 MR. HAYES: Obviously, yes. I just
19 wanted to make that point.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, I know. However, we
21 have the evidence that he
22 personally had money, that he gave money to
23 Mr. Traynor. He says he thought that it was
24 in 1986. It would seem to be earlier. However, the
25 actual dates may or may not be significant, we have
26 to wait. However, what is absolutely clear is that
27 at some point in time he had a personal account in
29 A. Yes.
36
1 MR. HAYES: However, may I just say?
3 MR. HAYES: You see in the statement
4 we will make it clear,
5 that in relation to this American business, that he
6 has sort of explained to you, an account was needed
7 to service that business. It was said to
8 Mr. Lindsay by Mr. Traynor that they would open that
9 account in the Cayman Islands and that that is how
10 the account came to be opened for that. I think
11 this is a point which has not been conveyed because
12 we have not given a statement.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Hayes, I know that you
14 are trying to clarify the
15 situation.
16 MR. HAYES: Yes.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we have to go on
18 the evidence that the
19 witness gives us.
20 MR. HAYES: Yes.
21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: At the moment I understand
22 that there was a
23 considerable amount of dealing with the company. We
24 have heard evidence that there was £400,000 lodged
25 by the company in the Cayman Islands.
26 MR. HAYES: Yes.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: What we are concerned with
28 today is Mr. Lindsay's own
29 personal dealings with the company. At the moment
37
1 the evidence establishes that he had personal
2 dealings and that is what I am concerned with today.
3 MR. HAYES: If I could just
4 make one final point?
6 MR. HAYES: When the company ceased to
7 trade, at that point,
8 unfortunately I cannot remember the year,
9 Mr. Lindsay went to Bangladesh.
11 MR. HAYES: And it was at that point
12 that he will say, in this
13 statement, that the personal dealings commenced
14 between himself and...(INTERJECTION).
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: He has said that already.
16 MR. HAYES: Yes. Then for five years
17 he was resident in
18 Bangladesh.
20 MR. HAYES: And as he has explained
21 remitting the monies,
22 which he earned there to Mr. Traynor.
24 MR. HAYES: I thought that that needed
25 clarity.
26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, very well. You can
27 get the matter clarified.
28 MR. HAYES: Yes.
29 225 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: There are only a few more
38
1 questions that I want to
2 ask you Mr. Lindsay?
3 A. Yes.
4 226 Q. When the money, that I have referred to, was
5 transferred to your son in Barcelona?
6 A. Yes.
7 227 Q. Did that close the account in Cayman?
8 A. Yes.
9 228 Q. You had no further dealings with it?
10 A. No, further at all, no.
11 229 Q. There was a substantial sum of money in the account?
12 A. Yes.
13 230 Q. At that stage?
14 A. Yes.
15 231 Q. Had you deposited money in the account from time to
16 time?
17 A. Continuously I would think, almost shipment by
18 shipment.
19 232 Q. In your own personal account?
20 A. Yes.
21 233 Q. I am talking about?
22 A. Shipment by shipment of carpets from Bangladesh.
23 234 Q. In your own personal account, the money you gave to
24 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Traynor put it into the Cayman
25 account?
26 A. Yes.
27 235 Q. That lasted for some years?
28 A. Yes.
29 236 Q. You came back to Ireland then, is that right?
39
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 237 Q. What I wish to know is, did you thereafter deposit
3 money?
4 A. No, not a penny.
5 238 Q. All the money that was in the Cayman came from a?
6 A. Yes.
7 239 Q. From a source in Bangladesh?
8 A. From earnings in Bangladesh.
9 240 Q. In Bangladesh?
10 A. Yes.
11 241 Q. You will tell us the date on which that occurred?
12 You will find this out from your records?
13 A. Yes, I will. A date as regards from what year to
14 what year and so forth.
15 242 Q. Approximately what are we talking about?
17 243 Q. Are we talking about...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. Five years about.
19 244 Q. However, in the 1980s or 1970s?
20 A. No, no, I wasn't in -- it would have been in
21 the 1980s.
22 245 Q. In the 1980s. Perhaps, I might get it this way:
23 You set up Super Ser?
24 A. Yes. Incidently that was the name of the
25 Spanish company.
26 246 Q. Yes. Super Ser Limited?
27 A. Yes.
28 247 Q. It was incorporated in Ireland?
29 A. Yes.
40
1 248 Q. Your partner in that, a 50% shareholder, with you
2 was Mr. Goosen?
3 A. Yes.
4 249 Q. When did that company cease to carry on trade?
5 A. 1982/1983, was it?
6 250 Q. Early 1980s you think?
7 A. Yes.
8 251 Q. Was it then that you went to Bangladesh?
9 A. Yes.
10 252 Q. When you returned after five years what business
11 activity did you undertake then?
12 A. Well, you see all the time in the background, from
13 my grandfather's time, we had a motorcycle shop
14 in Ship Street.
15 253 Q. Yes?
16 A. And all the time that was ticking over but I mean it
17 made virtually no money.
18 254 Q. Yes?
19 A. And I had a man looking after that while I was away.
20 255 Q. When you can back what did you do?
21 A. When I came back I went back into that.
22 256 Q. Yes?
23 A. That is it and then it packed up.
24 257 Q. What did you do then?
25 A. Then I retired. I mean that was -- I was getting on
26 then.
27 258 Q. When did Ardant Limited establish and your factory
28 establish making these heaters?
29 A. It would have been maybe 1980, would it? 1978 or
41
1 1980.
2 259 Q. How long did that company operate for?
3 A. Well, the main operation of that company quickly
4 became the America operation.
5 260 Q. Was there a separate company established in
6 the United States?
7 A. Yes.
8 2 61 Q. Do you remember the name of that company?
9 A. I know the heaters were called Shamrocks. Possibly
10 it was called Ardant.
11 262 Q. Would your accountants know?
12 A. Maybe, maybe. Certainly the man who was our
13 manager, the man who looked after it, he would know.
14 263 Q. What was his name?
15 A. John Grace.
16 264 Q. John Grace?
17 A. A further complication there. He spoke perfect
18 English. He came from Gibralter. His real name I
19 believe is Quan Gracias.
20 265 Q. Yes?
21 A. But everybody called him John Grace.
22 266 Q. Where is he now? Where is Mr. Grace now?
23 A. Well, I haven't spoken to him for a few years but he
24 lived in Norfolk, Virginia.
25 267 Q. In Virginia?
26 A. Yes.
27 268 Q. Very well then. If you would like to consider what
28 we were saying today?
29 A. Yes.
42
1 269 Q. And you could make a further statement then and
2 obtain all the documents that you can from them?
3 A. Yes.
4 270 Q. It is not a question of getting a selection of
5 documents, it is all the documents, that your
6 solicitors might have in relation to your own
8 A. Yes.
9 271 Q. There is one final matter that I want to ask you
10 about. It does appear that Super Ser, from what you
11 tell us, ceased to carry on business?
12 A. Yes.
13 272 Q. There are very substantial sums of money that
14 Super Ser apparently had on deposit?
15 A. Yes.
16 273 Q. $400,000 according to this document?
17 A. Yes.
18 274 Q. What became of the funds?
19 A. It disappeared like that in so much as when -- we
20 had endless orders. We took a half an hour on
21 American television with, you know, people talking
22 about the...(INTERJECTION).
23 275 Q. I am not talking about the American company. I am
24 talking about the Irish company?
25 A. Yes.
26 276 Q. That had very substantial sums on deposits?
27 A. Yes.
28 277 Q. Of $400,000 in "Ansbacher"?
29 A. Yes.
43
1 278 Q. In Cayman?
2 A. Yes.
3 279 Q. And substantial sums in London and in New York?
4 A. Yes.
5 280 Q. Or in America?
6 A. Yes.
7 281 Q. What became of the funds?
8 A. Yes, just -- may I just sort to get to that?
9 282 Q. Yes?
10 A. We had the orders. So, we got big loans from
11 Guinness & Mahon to service this American market.
12 We got big loans and then suddenly it was stopped
13 like that. It just stopped and Guinness & Mahon
14 took everything. They just took it like that.
15 283 Q. Then it was Super Ser that you say were servicing
16 the American market? The Irish company here?
17 A. Yes -- no, no, the money came from England.
18 284 Q. Yes?
19 A. Because they had the majority of the money.
20 285 Q. You are going to tell us when Super Ser ceased
21 trading? However, it does appear from the records
22 we have that Super Ser was a client of "Ansbacher"
23 and we would have to investigate Super Ser?
24 A. Yes.
25 286 Q. Apart from you is there anybody else that can assist
26 us in relation to Super Ser and its accounts and its
27 dealings with "Ansbacher"?
28 A. I don't even know -- I mean I am surprised when I
29 saw that there. I think that our (inaudible) with
44
1 Guinness & Mahon more or less coincided -- I
2 remember Mr. Traynor told me one day, he said, "I
3 have sold a bank in Cayman to a South African
4 company" which I haven't heard mentioned since.
5 287 Q. Yes?
6 A. And that, I think, was one of your last meetings.
7 288 Q. No. I am asking you about Super Ser, Mr. Lindsay.
8 What about Mr. Goosen? Where is he?
9 A. He lives in England.
10 289 Q. Yes?
11 A. He and I had a big disagreement about it. He didn't
12 want to go to America and events proved him right.
13 290 Q. Is there anybody else that can help us about the
14 Super Ser company apart from yourself? Did you have
15 accountants? Did Haughey Boland look after you?
16 A. Yes .
17 291 Q. Would you ask your accountants for any records that
18 they have in relation to Super Ser?
19 A. Yes .
20 292 Q. And in particular in relation to the deposits that
21 Super Ser had in the Cayman Islands?
23 293 Q. Very well then?
24 A. May I add?
25 294 Q. Yes?
26 A. It seems an incredible naive approach to things now
27 but I was trained as a fitter and turner and for me
28 to make something that people in America would buy
29 in colossal numbers was a dream.

1 295 Q. Yes?
2 A. And when it just shut down like that and
3 Guinness & Mahon took all the money I didn't even
4 want to bloody know whether we owed them money or
5 whether they owed us money.
6 296 Q. Yes. Very well. Thank you for your assistance
7 Mr. Lindsay. We can look at the situation again
8 then in the light of the documents?
9 A. Yes.
10 297 Q. That you sent on to us?
11 A. Yes. All right.
12 298 Q. Thank you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 MR. HAYES: Thank you.
15
16 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
46
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JOHN HAROLD LINDSAY
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 24TH MARCH 2000
Stenographer
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V^DHBIirKBIl MUUIKU
International Company Limited

st Group P.O. Box 887
Grand Cayman
wmrmiwom
Talaptana 809 949 6655
Tain CP 4305
FacaMo 809 949 5287
Telefax
From: John A. Furze, Esq. Refno.
To: Irish Intercontinental Bani, Dublin Ireland

Attention: RONAN REEMOND, ESQ.
Fox No: 011-3531-6785-034
Dais: 31-03-94
No. of Pages ttis
(indudk^Hione}: P0®8 "^y
Should be pateA! if yon would airange die transfiscf St* £270,000 to: i c r o
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Guernsey. Monaco. Swfewtanlfeteel Man, Bahamas, Cayman Mand^ Briish Wgh Wandf
Ansbacher Limited
Please reply to: P.O. Box 117, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, Britiah West Indies
42 FltzwOIiani Square, Telephone: (109) 949-8655 Telex: CP 430S
Dublin 2. Facsimile (109) 949-7946 (109) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763063
Fax: 612035
13th October, 1992.

Corporate Services, *
91 Merrion Square,
PVBfrlN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection a <}
U.S. Dollar cheque for USS2,315.00 payable to Ralph Lindsay '
and debit the Sterling cost to Ansbacher Limited Account
No.02/01087/81.
Yours sincerely,
• - - • • -
For ANSBACHER LIMITED Wr
JDT/AJW
A MEMBER or THE OiUACW UÂHWAL TRU^M^ W COH^m WITH OfDCO

ALSO LOCATED M THE lAMAMAJ. MnW VMS* ISLAND*.
GUERNSEY. MOKACO AND SWrREMJUn
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G O R E & G R I M E S
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L00296.17
PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL

The Inspectors,
Third Floor, Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin 3 December, 2001
RE: HARRY LINDSAY AND SUPER SER LIMITED

Dear Sirs,
With reference to your letter of the 7 t h November, our Client was never informed by
the Post Office that these letters from you were available for his collection.
With reference to your "Preliminary Conclusions", Mr. Lindsay did acknowledge in
the course of his examination before the Inspectors that he was indeed a Client of
Ansbacher and, as a Director of Super Ser Limited, that that Company also was a
Client of Ansbacher. He would however like to make the point that at that time, there
was no suggestion of any impropriety in being a customer of that Bank. It is only in
recent years that evidence has emerged in the public domain which, as you put it in
your letter, "justifies findings and/or inferences that you may consider to be adverse
to your interests, good name and/or reputation".
Our Client was introduced to this Institution, in the manner he has described in his
evidence to you, by Mr. Traynor, and was not aware of anything at all improper in his
conducting the business that he did conduct at that time with Mr. Traynor.
L00296/17/7102LE-1.LET
Appendix XV (67) Mr Joseph Clayton Love Junior
Joseph Clayton Love Junior.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Clayton Love Jnr dated 8 March 2000.
b) Statement of Mr Clayton Love Jnr dated March 2000.
c) Supplemental statement of Mr Clayton Love Jnr of 24 May 2000.
d) Elizabeth Love trust deed dated 23 April 1971.
e) Letter of 7 December 2001 - JW O'Donovan Solicitors to the Inspectors.
f) Transcript of submissions made on behalf of Mr Love dated 20 March

2002.
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. CLAYTON LOVE JNR.
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY, 8TH MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY BL
SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS
INTERVIEWEE: MR. CLAYTON LOVE JNR.
INSTRUCTED BY: MR. CORMAC 0'HANLON
J.W. 0'DONOVAN
53 SOUTH MALL
CORK
1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,
2 8TH MARCH 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Love, we will start
5 our interview. I am
6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey. We
7 are the Inspectors who have been appointed which by
8 the High Court. I should perhaps explain this is
9 not a Court, it is not a Tribunal, it is an
10 interview. If you have any problems about any
11 questions that we ask you that you would like to
12 take advice on, please let me know and you are at
13 liberty to ask your solicitor for advice.
14 Similarly, if your solicitor feels that there is any
15 question that he would like to discuss with you
16 before you answer, you are at liberty to discuss the
17 matter with your solicitor and we will adjourn to
18 allow you do so.
19 A. Okay.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I will now ask our
21 solicitor to administer
22 the oath to you.
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
3
1 MR. LOVE HAVING BEEN SWORN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS,
2 BY THE INSPECTORS
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Love, yesterday we
5 received your statement.
6 We received no documents, although it was indicated
7 to us that perhaps you would be sending us
8 documents.
9 A. Judge, we are in the process of trying to get as
10 much information as we can from the Cayman to put
11 the document together. Maybe Cormac would best
12 answer that, can he?
13 2 Q. Strictly speaking no, we can go into it later. I
14 have to explain to you that it does appear as of
15 now, at any rate, that we may have to call you back
16 again, Mr. Love.
17 A. That is okay.
18 3 Q. You understand that. We only received your
19 statement yesterday, we have no documents in
20 relation to it, so it may well be necessary, first
21 of all, in relation to the documents that you may
22 furnish to us and secondly, in relation to the
23 documents that we may ask you for that a further
24 interview takes place.
25 A. Okay.
26 4 Q. Mr. Love, I want to begin by referring you to our
27 main long letter we sent to you and to the
28 information which we sought in it. It is a letter
29 of 21st December 1999. Do you have it there
4
1 (Exhibit 1)?
2 A. Yes.
3 5 Q. Would you look at Appendix C of that letter?
4 A. Yes.
5 6 Q. Do you see we ask for:
6 "... a full and detailed statement of

all the dealings which the Company had
7 with you, whether directly or
indirectly. This should include
8 details of the manner in which services
were supplied by the Company, the dates
9 on which they were supplied, the names
of the person or persons who acted on
10 behalf of the Company in supplying them
and the names of your professional
11 advisers who may have advised you
concerning the supply of the services.
12
Without prejudice to the generality of
13 the foregoing, the statement should
deal with the following matters...."
14
15 And we set them out.
16
17 Mr. Love, I have to draw your attention to the fact
18 that the matters on which we sought your assistance
19 are not included in your statement and I propose to
20 go through this letter now to ask you for further
21 assistance and to ask you for the documents which we
22 consider to be necessary. Would you turn over the
23 page to the Cayman Island Trust and Trust companies?
24 It reads:
25
26 "If you caused to be executed a deed of trust or

other instrument in the Cayman Islands
27 or elsewhere whereby the Company or
some other person associated with it or
28 acting at its discretion was a trustee
or managed th trust and you transferred
29 money or other assets to the trust
and/or if you caused to be established
5
1 in the Cayman Islands a body corporate
to which you caused to be assigned
2 money or other assets and which were
managed by the Company or some other
3 person associated with it or acting at
its direction, you should
4
(a) Furnish all correspondence relating
5 to the establishment of the Trust."
6 Mr. Love, would you tell me first of all what trusts
7 you established or caused to be established in the
8 Cayman Islands?
9 A. The trust that was established in the Cayman Islands
10 was the Elizabeth Love Trust. That is referred to
11 in my statement. The company associated with that
12 is Yale. I do not have a copy of the Trust Deed.
13 I have had difficulty getting information from the
14 Cayman but recently I asked my son to go out to the
15 Cayman and I spoke there to a Brian Bothwell before
16 he left and they have promised to give us
17 information arising out of that.
18 7 Q. What was the date when it was established?
19 A. The trust was established in the early 1970's, if my
20 recollection is correct.
21 8 Q. Can you not be a bit more specific?
22 A. No, I cannot. I don't have any information on it
23 myself.
24 9 Q. Mr. Love, you must have had professional advice, did
25 you not?
26 A. Yes, I took the advice of both Des Traynor at the
27 time and Michael McMahon in Haughey Boland.
28 10 Q. I just want to get this clear. Your firm or your
29 company, of course, would have had accountants. Did
6
1 you have your own personal accountants looking after
2 your tax affairs?
3 A. Michael McMahon of Haughey Boland.
4 11 Q. Was he separate from the accountants
5 .... (INTERJECTION)
6 A. From Des Traynor, yes, he was.
7 12 Q. That were dealing with your company.
8 A. But remember Des Traynor was a partner in
9 Haughey Boland before he left.
10 13 Q. I know that, and he was also on the Board of your
11 family company?
12 A. The family company had nothing to do with this,
13 Judge.
14 14 Q. I understand that, yes. Did Mr. McMahon advise you
15 about discretionary trusts?
16 A. The intention to set up a discretionary trust was
17 that obviously, being in the property business, one
18 has to realise it is a cyclical business and the
19 whole idea of the discretionary trust was to try and
20 establish some fund in which at least at that time I
21 was only a potential, if you will, beneficiary from
22 the trust and a borrower from it.
23 15 Q. Just listen to the question, we will go into that
24 later. Did you obtain advice on the setting up of
25 this company?
26 A. Whether the trust was proposed to me by
27 Desmond Traynor, I would have discussed it,
28 obviously, with Michael McMahon.
29 16 Q. Yes, that is what I would have thought. Did

1 Michael McMahon advise you fully in relation to it?
2 A. He said it was perfectly legal.
3 17 Q. Did he advise you, he did?
4 A. In what respect?
5 18 Q. Did he write to you?
6 A. Michael McMahon was not a very good writer.
7 19 Q. Did he write to you, then?
8 A. No, he didn't, not that I can recollect.
9 20 Q. You would have talked to him then about the legality
10 of the trust?
11 A. Yes, I would.
12 21 Q. Did you have a solicitor at the time?
13 A. I would have had a solicitor at the time but I
14 wouldn't have talked to him about tax matters.
15 22 Q. Who was the solicitor, then?
16 A. Charlie Hennessy of James W. 0'Donovan, Cork.
17 23 Q. So you did not discuss it with your solicitor?
18 A. No.
19 24 Q. That means that the legal documents establishing the
20 trust were not drawn up by your solicitor?
21 A. No, they were not.
22 25 Q. Who drew them up?
23 A. I presume they were drawn up in the Caymans.
24 26 Q. Why do you presume that?
25 A. Des Traynor handled all of these affairs for me and
26 I had absolute faith in him, to be honest with you.
27 He organised all that for me, or for my wife,
28 rather, and the family. The same would have applied
29 for the Channel Island Trust.
8
1 27 Q. You must have signed a document, or your wife must
2 have signed a document?
3 A. We haven't got that in our possession.
4 28 Q. Just take it in stages.
5 A. No, I appreciate what you are saying.
6 29 Q. My question is did your wife or yourself sign a
7 document?
8 A. I did not sign a document.
9 30 Q. Did your wife?
10 A. I don't think she did. She says she has no
11 recollection of it.
12 31 Q. That means there has been no Trust Deed signed,
13 then?
14 A. I don't know, Judge. I wish I did know.
15 32 Q. Could it have been that somebody else signed the
16 Trust Deed?
17 A. It is possible but I don't know.
18 33 Q. When you say it is possible, I am sure you have
19 heard all the evidence that has been in the public
20 domain about nominee accountants being appointed to
21 execute these documents. Were you told that?
22 A. It is possible that Des Traynor might have done it
23 on my behalf but I don't know, Judge.
24 34 Q. Were you told that one of the ways of dealing with
25 this situation of establishing trusts would be to
26 have the Trust Deed executed by, say, an accountant?
27 A. I think I was at the time, yes, I think I was.
28 35 Q. So if neither your wife or you signed a document and
29 a Trust Deed was executed, it would appear as if it
9
1 was executed by a person in the Cayman Islands?
2 A. I imagine so, Judge, yes.
3 36 Q. Why was that, do you think?
4 A. Because of the advice of Des Traynor.
5 37 Q. What advice did he give you?
6 A. To create the trust in the Cayman Islands.
7 38 Q. The accountant in the Cayman Islands would not have
8 had any money so you had to transfer or your wife
9 had to transfer funds?
10 A. We transferred money, as I said in my statement,
11 from the Channel Island Trust to the Cayman Islands.
12 39 Q. I just want to come to that in a moment. The
13 situation was that you must have been informed that
14 a trust had been established. Were you informed who
15 the trustees were?
16 A. I have no recollection of it at this point in time,
17 Judge.
18 40 Q. Yes, but who do you think were the trustees now?
19 A. Who are the trustees now?
20 41 Q. Yes.
21 A. That is something we have asked the bank for, or
22 Clayton has asked the bank for, and they are to come
23 back to us on that.
24 42 Q. Who do you think are the trustees?
25 A. I don't know, Judge.
26 43 Q. It has been 30 years now and you do not know who the
27 trustees are?
28 A. No, I don't, Judge.
29 44 Q. Who do you think they were?
10
1 A. I presume some personnel within the bank.
2 45 Q. In the bank?
3 A. I presume, but I am not sure.
4 46 Q. Could it have been the bank itself is trustee?
5 A. I do not know, Judge.
6 47 Q. Did you ever see a copy of the trust?
7 A. No, I never did.
8 48 Q. Do you know how the trust operated? Were you told
9 how the trust would operate and what the trustees
10 would do?
11 A. I don't understand your question.
12 49 Q. Sorry, I will make it clearer. You told me about
13 Yale Securities. Tell me what Mr. Traynor told you
14 about Yale Securities?
15 A. That it was part and parcel of the trust.
16 50 Q. Tell me what he told you.
17 A. That it was a company within the Cayman Islands as
18 part and parcel of the trust.
19 51 Q. What does part and parcel mean?
20 A. It handled the money aspect.
21 52 Q. It handled the money, yes. Did he tell you that in
22 fact the trustees would own the shares in this
23 company?
24 A. I don't recollect, Judge.
25 53 Q. They would handle the money?
26 A. Yes.
27 54 Q. Would that mean that the money would be transferred
28 to them?
29 A. I don't know how the money was transferred to them
11
1 but I would get annual statements from
2 Desmond Traynor which he would show me and that
3 would be it, really.
4 55 Q. You got statements from Des Traynor?
5 A. He would just give me a blank statement, like a
6 statement of affairs, but I never kept a copy.
7 56 Q. Was the bank statement ....(INTERJECTION)
8 A. It wasn't a bank statement, it would have been a
9 statement of affairs. There was only one bank
10 statement that I have in my possession which we will
11 give you a copy of in due course, which is way back
12 in 1970, I think, early 1970's. That was from
13 Guinness Mahon in Cayman.
14 57 Q. The statement of affairs that Mr. Traynor gave you,
15 was this on a regular basis?
16 A. Once a year at most.
17 58 Q. Was this a statement of affairs of the trust or of
18 the company?
19 A. It would be of the company, I believe.
20 59 Q. Of the company?
21 A. Yes, which as far as I was concerned was part and
22 parcel of the trust.
23 60 Q. Did he ever give you any other documents about the
24 company, for example, about any of its deposits, any
25 of its funds?
26 A. No.
27 61 Q. Only a statement of affairs?
28 A. Just that, yes. The only other document I have, as
29 I said to you, Judge, is ones early in 1970 which
12
1 shows a bank account.
2 62 Q. Where is the bank?
3 A. In Cayman.
4 63 Q. Does it show a deposit?
5 A. It does, yes.
6 64 Q. It names the bank?
7 A. It names the bank, it names Yale and it names the
8 trust, I think.
9 65 Q. So what you have is you have Yale being shown as a
10 depositor in the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Bank?
11 A. Correct.
12 66 Q. Is that where the money was deposited during the
13 life of the trust, do you think?
14 A. Sorry, Judge?
15 67 Q. Do you think the money was deposited in the Guinness
16 Mahon Cayman Trust Bank throughout the life of the
17 trust?
18 A. Yes.
19 68 Q. The trustees never sought to invest the money in
20 securities or anything like this, it was always on
21 deposit?
22 A. On deposit, yes. There was one investment made in
23 America in property but it wasn't very successful.
24 69 Q. Is that the Lyndon one?
25 A. The Lyndon one, yes.
26 70 Q. We will come to that later. Apart from Yale
27 Securities, was there another company?
28 A. Apart from Yale Securities, I think there was
29 another company in the early days, I think it was
13
1 Orchard but I can't remember, Judge. It is on the
2 statement or included in the statement.
3 71 Q. What was Orchard?
4 A. It was part and parcel of the set-up that Des made
5 but then it was disbanded and Yale became the
6 company.
7 72 Q. Can you not be a bit more explicit?
8 A. I cannot, Judge. I mean, it is 30 years ago.
9 73 Q. I know that. Orchard was apparently part of the
10 scheme that Mr. Traynor had put together for you?
11 A. Yes.
12 74 Q. Did you get any statements?
13 A. No. No, I never received a statement from Orchard.
14 75 Q. The funds that were paid into this trust, they came,
15 you say, from the Channel Islands; is that right?
16 A. That's correct.
17 76 Q. Tell me about that.
18 A. Guinness Mahon and I were partners in property
19 ventures in the UK and the Clayton Love Trust was
20 set up for that purpose in the Channel Islands.
21 77 Q. Just take it more slowly. The money which went
22 into Cayman came from the Channel Island trust?
23 A. Yes.
24 78 Q. Just tell me about the establishment of that trust?
25 A. There was a company set up to do property
26 developments, with myself and Guinness Mahon as
27 partners.
29 A. Wildwood Investments.
14
1 80 Q. Where was that incorporated?
2 A. In the Channel Islands.
3 81 Q. That was a limited company?
4 A. Yes.
5 82 Q. It was a joint venture between you and Guinness
6 Mahon?
7 A. Correct.
8 83 Q. When was a trust established?
9 A. At the same time.
10 84 Q. Was there a Trust Deed executed?
11 A. Again, I have no recollection of seeing it, judge.
12 85 Q. Tell me about the arrangement that Mr. Traynor made
13 in relation to it?
14 A. The trust was set up in the Channel Islands.
15 86 Q. Just tell me about what Mr. Traynor advised you?
16 A. I was advised at the time, I think, that I should
17 set up this trust in the Channel Islands I think for
18 holding the shares in Wildwood, I think, I am not
19 sure or my share of the equity in Wildwood, and that
20 Wildwood would conduct the business of property in
21 the UK.
22 87 Q. When was that? What year was that?
23 A. The early 1970's, I think, Judge. Mid 1970's or
24 early 1970's, I would say.
25 88 Q. It should be possible to be more precise because
26 this was a venture undertaken between you and
27 Guinness Mahon, was it not, a joint venture?
28 A. Yes.
29 89 Q. When did that start?
15
1 A. My recollection is around about 1973 or 1974 but I
2 cannot be dead certain.
3 90 Q. Yes, it is hard to be accurate but I will require
4 you to be much more accurate, Mr. Love, and make
5 enquiries. You can easily find out from when the
6 company was incorporated. For example, you will be
7 able to get me the Trust Deed, I am sure. In 1973
8 or 1974 then, a joint venture was undertaken in
9 London?
10 A. That's correct, yes, London Properties.
11 91 Q. Is this the one that is referred to in your
12 statement that went wrong?
13 A. Yes .
14 92 Q. Wildwood Investments was set up and at the same time
15 a Trust Deed was executed by which the trust would
16 hold your share in Wildwood?
17 A. That's correct, that is my understanding.
18 93 Q. What share was that?
19 A. 60%.
20 94 Q. The Trust Deed must have been prepared by someone
21 and signed by someone, do you know?
22 A. I don't know. I don't have a copy of it, as I said
23 to you.
24 95 Q. I am not asking you about a copy, I am asking you
25 who executed it?
26 A. I imagine it was dealt with by Guinness Mahon Jersey
27 Trust.
28 96 Q. As the previous one you have mentioned?
29 A. I think so.
1 97 Q. So that a nominee was used as the settlor of the
2 trust?
3 A. I would imagine so.
4 98 Q. And you signed nothing?
5 A. I certainly have no recollection of signing
6 anything, Judge.
7 99 Q. Did you ever see the Trust Deed?
8 A. I have no recollection of ever seeing the Trust
9 Deed.
10 100 Q. Do you know what company was employed to draft
11 ....(INTERJECTION)
13 101 Q. There were subsidiaries of Guinness Mahon in the
14 Cayman Islands, were there not?
15 A. Guinness Mahon Bank, yes.
16 102 Q. Were they in existence at the time, do you know?
17 A. Of?
18 103 Q. When this was set up, when Wildwood Investments
21 104 Q. Sorry, I meant Channel Islands. Were there not
22 subsidiaries established in the Channel Islands?
23 A. It was Guinness Mahon Jersey Trust.
24 105 Q. Do you think it is likely that Guinness Mahon Jersey
25 Trust were the trustees of this?
26 A. I would imagine so.
27 106 Q. Had you any correspondence relating to the
28 establishment of this trust?
29 A. If I did, Judge, I don't have it now.
17
1 107 Q. Would it have been with Mr. Traynor?
2 A. It would have been with Mr. Traynor, yes.
3 108 Q. Then the best of your recollection is that this
4 trust was established sometime in 1973/74 and its
5 assets would be your 60% shareholding in Wildwood
6 Investments?
7 A. Yes.
8 109 Q. The development took place, we understand, and it
9 was financially unsuccessful?
10 A. No, the development never took place. We bought the
11 properties, put the site together and had the
12 development ready to go ahead and lost the tenant.
13 110 Q. How long did that take?
14 A. Two or three years.
15 111 Q. That gets us to 1976/77?
16 A. 1977/78.
17 112 Q. From this venture, was there £75,000 to £80,000
19 A. Yes, there were surplus properties.
20 113 Q. This was in Wildwood Investments Company Limited?
21 A. It would have come out of that, yes.
22 114 Q. To the shareholders?
23 A. Yes.
24 115 Q. To the shareholders and then to the trustees?
25 A. Exactly.
26 116 Q. This would have been about 1977/78?
27 A. Yes.
28 117 Q. That means, Mr. Love, that the payment to your
29 wife's trust would not be until then?
18
1 A. That is one thing that struck me now, Judge, and I
2 do not know how that occurred if the trust was set
3 up in the early 1970's.
4 118 Q. Yes, exactly. You are wrong, are you not Mr. Love,
5 you must be wrong?
6 A. Well, I can't explain it to you otherwise, Judge.
7 119 Q. Do you know when Yale Securities was incorporated?
8 A. No, I don't, Judge.
9 120 Q. Our investigations indicate that it was established
10 in March 1971?
11 A. I would think that would be about right, yes.
12 121 Q. How did it have funds then if they did not come from
13 your Channel Island trust?
15 122 Q. Aren't you mistaken in your recollection?
16 A. I will check on it, Judge.
17 123 Q. The trusts that you have told us about were the ones
18 that your wife established in 1971, you say. When
19 you say your wife established them
20 ....(INTERJECTION).
21 A. They were established in her name, Judge.
22 124 Q. It would appear as if the name of the settlor was an
23 accountant in the Cayman Islands.
24 A. Yes.
25 125 Q. What I wonder is can you remember who the
26 beneficiaries of the discretionary trust were?
27 A. It would be the family, I presume, my family.
28 126 Q. Can you remember?
29 A. Yes, I think it was my family, that is what it was
19
1 set up for.
2 127 Q. Can you remember who was named as a beneficiary?
3 A. I don't remember. My children, I presume, my wife
4 and my children. I was a potential beneficiary of
5 it too obviously. It was set up for the family.
6 128 Q. You were a potential beneficiary of it?
7 A. Yes, I was, and a borrower from it subsequently.
8 129 Q. Leave that aside for the moment. The beneficiaries
9 of this trust established in 1971 was yourself, your
10 wife and your children?
11 A. Yes, that is my recollection, yes, Judge.
12 130 Q. Why do you call it your wife's trust?
13 A. Because Des Traynor advised me to do it in her name.
14 131 Q. The name of the trust was what?
15 A. The Elizabeth Love Trust.
16 132 Q. The beneficiaries of the trust were yourself, your
17 wife and your children?
18 A. I think I was a beneficiary, yes. It certainly was
19 intended that they would be.
20 133 Q. That is one trust. The other trust that was
21 established was in the Channel Islands, do you
22 remember the name of that?
23 A. The Clayton Love CI Trust.
24 134 Q. Channel Island Trust?
25 A. Yes.
26 135 Q. Who were the beneficiaries in that?
27 A. I imagine they would have been the same.
28 136 Q. The same?
29 A. I imagine, but I am not sure, Judge.
20
1 137 Q. Your wife, yourself and your children?
2 A. I imagine, but it could well be just myself
3 exclusively because as a shareholder that might have
4 been the arrangement.
5 138 Q. It would not have been a discretionary trust if you
6 were the only beneficiary?
7 A. That is true, that is true.
8 139 Q. Have you made any effort to try to get a hold of
9 this trust?
10 A. We are making efforts to get hold of it.
11 140 Q. Do you know what efforts are you making?
12 A. I am making contact with the people in the Channel
13 Islands.
14 141 Q. Who?
15 A. With Guinness Mahon and their successors, and so far
16 been unsuccessful.
17 142 Q. Have you written to them?
18 A. Yes.
19 143 Q. Over the time you must have met some of the people
20 from the Channel Islands?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 144 Q. Did you not?
23 A. No.
24 145 Q. There was a Mr. Lipscombe.
25 A. I knew of him but I never met him.
26 146 Q. He was one of the persons involved in managing the
27 trust, was he not?
28 A. Yes, as I understand it, yes. Judge, I would like
29 to say the whole of the Channel Islands Wildwood
21
1 thing was a very bad memory for me. It was
2 something I put aside and forgot about because I had
3 to extract myself from a very serious position. If
4 I am a bit sort of not memorising, I actually shut
5 it all out of my mind.
6 147 Q. This is why it is so important to get the documents.
7 A. Yes, I agree, Judge.
8 148 Q. I am surprised that there are difficulties in
9 getting the documents. Those are two trusts that
10 you told us that you established. Are there any
11 others ?
12 A. No, no others, Judge.
13 149 Q. I think you are not correct there because you did
14 tell us in your statement about another trust,
15 Lynbrett?
16 A. Yes, Lynbrett, that was a trust set up between five
17 of us to do with property dealings in North America.
18 150 Q. Why I am asking you about it is because it does
19 appear that a trust document was in fact drawn up,
20 was it not?
21 A. I don't ever recollect seeing one but I might have,
22 Judge.
23 151 Q. It does appear that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was
24 the trustee named?
25 A. Yes, in the Lynbrett Trust, yes.
26 152 Q. Is that right?
27 A. I think so, yes, Judge.
28 153 Q. It does appear that the Lynbrett Trust was to take
29 shares in five companies, was that the arrangement?
22
1 A. I am lost, Judge.
2 154 Q. Perhaps you will tell me what you recollect was the
3 arrangement.
4 A. We got involved in property deals in Arizona and as
5 I understood the trust took advanced monies to those
6 deals -- no, I am mistaken now. The monies we put
7 up in the Lynbrett Trust were part of the equity
8 towards these deals and the money was borrowed from
9 AIB in New York and I think the ratio was something
10 like 80:20, 20% equity and 80% borrowing if I am
11 correct. I am not sure who else was involved in the
12 Lynbrett Trust because there were another four
13 people involved in that.
14 155 Q. You are saying you are not sure.
15 A. No, I am not sure.
16 156 Q. Don't you know that Mr. Hugh Coveney was involved?
17 A. He was definitely, yes.
18 157 Q. You are sure of him?
19 A. Very much so.
20 158 Q. It is in the public domain what Mr. Coveney's role
21 in this was.
22 A. Yes .
23 159 Q. Mr. Coveney was a close personal friend of yours, I
24 think.
25 A. He was, yes.
26 160 Q. He was involved in this venture and Guinness Mahon
27 Cayman Trust was the trustee.
28 A. Yes, I think so.
29 161 Q. I am just pointing this out to you because of the
23
1 statement that you had made in your written
2 statement that Mr. Coveney never had any involvement
3 to your knowledge with the Guinness Mahon Cayman
4 Trust, he had involvement?
5 A. No, in that context he was, yes, Judge.
6 162 Q. You were not aware of his other ....(INTERJECTION).
7 A. I was not aware of the other context and that is
8 what I am referring you to there.
9 163 Q. You knew Mr. Coveney was involved in this?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 164 Q. Because he was one of your partners?
12 A. Correct.
13 165 Q. Not otherwise. Did you know that the Lynbrett Trust
14 in fact lodged money here?
15 A. Judge, I don't think I said that I wasn't aware that
16 Mr. Coveney was a member of the trust.
17 166 Q. No, no, you did not.
18 A. I didn't say that.
19 167 Q. Maybe I am wrong in paraphrasing what you said. Did
20 you know that Lynbrett Trust was in fact entitled to
21 one of these sub-accounts that Guinness Mahon Cayman
22 Trust Limited had in Guinness & Mahon here in
23 Dublin?
24 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
25 168 Q. Just have a look at this photostat. This is a
26 Guinness Mahon Limited ledger statement. It shows
27 the account is in the name of Guinness Mahon Cayman
28 Trust Limited and it shows credits to Lynbrett of
29 £4,500 and Lynbrett £1,756.67 in May 1986. You know

1 about the pooled accounts which Guinness Mahon
2 Cayman Trust had, you know about this; do you not?
3 A. Yes, I know about it from the papers.
4 169 Q. You know from the papers that there was a pooled
5 account and there were a number of coded
6 sub-accounts?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 170 Q. Do you know did you know that Lynbrett was one of
9 the sub ....(INTERJECTION).
10 A. No, I was not aware of that. This is the first I
11 know of that.
12 171 Q. I want to refer you to a letter in relation to the
13 deposits. I want you to look at this letter, it is
14 a letter of 21st June 1977 and it is addressed to
15 Mr. Furze and signed by Mr. Traynor and headed
16 "Re Yale Securities Limited." It says:
17 "Dear John
18 At the present time we have two

hypothecation agreements re M. and M.l.
19 against advances in Dublin for Lily
Securities and Taurus Securities.
20
Arising out of discussions it has now
21 been agreed for interest purposes only
M. and M.I deposits will be offset
22 against Lily and Taurus but that the
funds will be actually hypothecated to
23 GMCT re advances by Guinness & Mahon to
Clayton Love Jnr. on two loan accounts
24 one for £25,000, one for £13,000.
25 Would you please let me have new

agreements on these lines."
26
27 Can you explain that to me, Mr. Love?
28 A. Lily and Taurus were companies that I used for
29 property development.
25
1 172 Q. Sorry, just tell me what they were.
2 A. I think Lily had to do with a property in Adelaide
3 Road, I think, I am not too sure.
4 173 Q. Lily Securities Limited, it was registered in
5 Ireland?
6 A. Yes, and Taurus the same way.
7 174 Q. These were property companies of yours?
8 A. Yes.
9 175 Q. You were the beneficial owner of the company?
10 A. Yes.
11 176 Q. It would appear that Guinness & Mahon were lending
12 money to these companies?
13 A. Yes.
14 177 Q.
"For interest purposes only the M. and
15 M.I. deposits will be offset against
Lily."
16
17 What are the M. and M.I. deposits?

f
18 A. The M f was the Yale account and I don't know what
19 Ml is.
20 178 Q. It appears it must have been one of your accounts?
22 179 Q. Do not know what Ml was?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 180 Q. Could it have been a way of identifying what we have
25 come to know as blocked accounts when part of an
26 account was being used as security for a loan, that
27 was a portion of the main accounts, or the M account
28 in this case, created and called an Ml account and
29 was used as a blocked account to indicate that that
26
1 portion of the deposit was used as security for a
2 loan?
4 181 Q. Did you have other loans from Guinness & Mahon at
5 this time?
6 A. In 1977?
7 182 Q. In 1977.
8 A. I certainly had loans to Wilton Securities in 1977
9 from Guinness & Mahon, of that I am pretty certain.
10 I might have had loans to Douglas Developments at
11 the time, I am not sure.
12 183 Q. Do you know why the account was a coded account?
13 A. I do not know, Judge.
14 184 Q. You do not know?
15 A. No, I don't, no.
16 185 Q. It seemed to be the account of Yale Securities
17 Limited, is that right?
18 A. That's right.
19 186 Q. It seems to have been a coded account?
20 A. Yes.
21 187 Q. Your understanding was that it was an account in the
22 Cayman Islands?
23 A. I would definitely understand that, yes, Judge.
24 188 Q. The funds of Yale Securities Limited were being used
25 then as security for loans made to you?
26 A. That would appear on the letter, yes.
27 189 Q. I want you to look at some other documents. The
28 first document I want to show you is a letter of
29 2nd October 1991 from Joan Williams to Mr. Logan in
27
1 the Intercontinental Bank (Exhibit 4).
2 "Dear Garrett
3 Could you please arrange to lodge the

enclosed draft for Stg.£21,250.00 to
4 credit of Ansbacher Limited account,
No. 02/01087/81."
5
6 The account number is given. Joan Williams is
7 Mr. Traynor's secretary and that is arranging to
8 lodge a sterling draft of £21,250 in the Ansbacher
9 main account, is that not right?
10 A. Yes .
11 190 Q. The information which we have obtained is that that
12 was a draft purchased by Lyndon Properties and the
13 funds used to purchase the draft were debited to the
14 current account of Lyndon Properties in November
15 1991. We will just show you the next document,
16 (Exhibit 5) the photostat is not very clear but it
17 is clear it is a draft. Can you explain to me how
18 Lyndon Properties were lodging money into the main
19 account in IIB of Ansbacher?
20 A. I cannot, Judge. I have never seen this before.
21 191 Q. They were though.
22 A. From the evidence, yes.
23 192 Q. There is a further document, if you look down to a
24 letter from Joan Williams of 17th December 1991
25 (Exhibit 6), Joan Williams is asking Mr. Logan to
26 lodge enclosed draft for £27,750stg. to Ansbacher
27 account. Again the information which we have
28 obtained from the Bank of Ireland is that the draft
29 was purchased by Lyndon Properties of 3 Inns Quay,
28
1 Dublin. The funds used to purchase the draft were
2 debited from the current account of Lyndon
3 Properties on 16th December 1991, again this is a
4 lodgment to the Ansbacher account. Lyndon
5 properties is your company?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 193 Q. It is 100% owned by you?
8 A. Yes .
9 194 Q. Are you not able to explain to me how it came about
10 that ....(INTERJECTION).
11 A. I have to go back and check the records.
12 195 Q. Would you check?
13 A. Yes, I will of course, two payments.
14 196 Q. Would you turn to another document of 27th May 1994
15 and this is from Joan Williams to Mr. Redmond in the
16 Irish Intercontinental Bank and it states:
17 "Could you please arrange to lodge the

enclosed sterling cheque for Stg.
18 £30,000 to C.I.B.T.C. account..."
1 Q
20 It is the same numbered account. It is the main
21 account, is it not? The cheque is underneath there
22 on the photostat and it is a C&E Love cheque, that
23 is you and your wife, a personal cheque?
24 A. Correct.
25 197 Q. This would appear to be a lodgment to the Ansbacher
26 account of £30,000 made by you?
27 A. Yes .
28 198 Q. Can you explain that?
29 A. I can't, Judge.
1 199 Q. It does appear that you were using the Ansbacher
2 account as an account?
3 A. No, I was not, Judge. I am sure there is a rational
4 explanation for these.
5 200 Q. Perhaps but at the moment it looks as if monies were
6 being paid in by your company and by yourself into
7 this account, is that not so?
8 A. Certainly on that evidence, yes.
9 201 Q. There is another document, the letter of 7th June
10 1994 from Ms. Williams to Mr. Redmond enclosing a
11 sterling cheque of £7,000 to the same account on one
12 of your wife's personal cheques, that is another
13 lodgment?
14 A. Yes, £7,000, yes.
15 MR. O'HANLON: Judge, would you give us a
16 moment?
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, would you like to go
18 to the consultation room?
19 MR. O'HANLON: Yes, just for a moment.
20
21
22 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)
23
24 MR. O'HANLON: Thank you.
25 202 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: These cheques were sent on
26 by Joan Williams,
27 Mr. Traynor's secretary. Would you have handed
28 these cheques to Ms. Williams or would you have
29 written and posted them or were you in the habit of
30
1 giving cheques to Mr. Traynor?
2 A. I imagine the first cheques, the cheques paid by
3 Lyndon to IIB, is it? They are drafts to IIB, I
4 suspect they have something to do with the loan
5 arrangements that Mr. Traynor was making for me and
6 I will check that. I suspect that these, and I am
7 not certain now, could be repayments of loans that
8 Mr. Traynor had advanced to me.
9 203 Q. That Mr. Traynor had advanced to you?
10 A. Yes .
11 204 Q. Did you obtain loans from Mr. Traynor?
12 A. If I wanted cash for things like, he certainly
13 would, yes.
14 205 Q. Would you have any records of these loans?
15 A. No, they would be very small anyway, as you can see.
16 On a personal basis he would certainly be helpful to
17 me. I don't know, Judge, what they were for but I
18 will try and check.
19 206 Q. If they were loans, were these personal loans from
20 Mr. Traynor to you?
21 A. He would do that for me, yes.
22 207 Q. These cheques are not made payable to Mr. Traynor?
23 A. No, but maybe that is the way he asked for the
24 repayment to be made, I don't know.
25 208 Q. Very well, you will try and check it out.
26 A. I will, and these two surprised me to be honest with
27 you.
28 209 Q. I want to come to this substantial loan by IIB and I
29 want to show you a number of documents. The first
31
one is page 31A and is an Intercontinental Bank
2 internal memo. This is an internal memo of the
3 Intercontinental Bank (Exhibit 9) and I want your
4 comments on it. It is from Liam Dolan and the
5 subject is Lyndon Properties and it is dated 29th
6 November 1990. He states:
7 "I spoke to Des Traynor following our

previous meeting. I confirmed with him
8 and that we saw no problem in setting
up the facility for Lyndon Properties
9 on the basis of a back-to-back loan of
£2 million at a margin of 1%. I told
10 him that we would envisage taking his
deposit into Credit Bank London as this
11 is required to be in another
j urisdiction."
12
13 Mr. Traynor obviously wanted it in another
14 jurisdiction, not in Ireland; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 210 Q. It refers to a margin of 1%, do you know what that
17 is?
18 A. I imagine that is the fee that would have to be paid
19 for the back to back loan.
20 211 Q. There would be interest paid on the deposit and
21 interest paid on the loan, and the margin was 1%?
22 A. I imagine so, yes.
23 212 Q.
"He was happy with that and asked that
24 we should send him out the forms
necessary. We will have Sam Field
25 Corbett who looks after the affairs of
this company contact us in regard to
26 details of the loan.
27 We should proceed to get credit

approval for this transaction and we
28 also need to agree a margin for KB
London."
29
32
1 Would you just turn to the next document which is a
2 facility letter of 28th January 1991 (Exhibit 10).
3 It is addressed to your company and for the
4 attention of Mr. Field-Corbett and it sets out the
5 nature of the facilities, the drawdown date. If you
6 turn to paragraph 5 on the next page:
7 "Security
8 Any and all indebtedness or liability

of the Borrower to IIB is to be secured
9 by the guarantee of Mr. Clayton Love
and such other security in such form as
10 shall be required by IIB to its
absolute discretion from time to time."
11
12 A. That's right.
13 213 Q. There is no mention in that letter that the security
14 was to be back to back?
15 A. No.
16 214 Q. Do you know that in fact it was deliberately kept
17 out of the letter?
18 A. I am not sure but I know it was back to back, Judge.
19 215 Q. You are not sure it was deliberately kept out?
20 A. No.
21 216 Q. Could it have been deliberately kept out?
22 A. I don't know, Judge. I have signed that letter
23 anyway, so I have seen that letter before.
24 217 Q. I want to refer you now to the next document which
25 is another IIB credit application of 30th November
26 1990 and it refers to the description of the credit
27 lines cash back demand facilities, the initial
28 balance and the interest to be drawn up. Then over
29 the next page it guarantees a collateral charge on
33
1 deposit place with KB London at a minimum (Exhibit
2 11) •
3 A. Yes .
4 218 Q. So there is no doubt that it was back to back, it
5 was the security of the deposit that was the main
6 security that was being granted?
7 A. Yes .
8 219 Q. If you look at the last page, page 4, the summary of
9 the purpose was the back to back facility to Lyndon
10 properties. "Major risk. Borrowers negative net
11 worth. Accounts qualified." I will come to that
12 later but in fact your negative net worth was the
13 serious financial position your company was in at
14 the time?
15 A. At that time, yes.
16 220 Q. Your accounts were qualified?
17 A. Correct.
18 221 Q. Will you turn over the page to:
19 "The facility is fully secured by at

least the amount placed with KB
20 London."
21
22 A. Yes .
23 222 Q.
"Due to cash back nature of this
24 transaction, the provision of this
facility is recommended."
25
26 A. Yes .
27 223 Q. The next document we need not delay on it, just to
28 look at it for information purposes. It is the
29 guarantee by Credit Bank which was part of the
34
1 arrangement, Credit Bank was to guarantee the loan
2 (Exhibit 12). Then if you look at the next document
3 there is a counter indemnity from Ansbacher and
4 there is a (Exhibit 13) mortgage of the monies
5 outstanding which we need not bother about. There
6 is a side letter from the Credit Bank which we need
7 not bother about for present purposes. Would you
8 just look at a letter of 26th February 1991 from
9 Mr. Traynor transferring the £2 million in this
10 company's new deposit account which just opened and
11 debiting the Ansbacher Limited call deposit account.
12 The £2 million was sent from the Ansbacher account
13 in IIB in Dublin to the Credit Bank in London
14 (Exhibit 14).
15
16 Now I want to come to documents that were generated
17 in 1993 arising from a new loan structure. Would
18 you just look at a memorandum from Claire Gannon,
19 the subject being Lyndon Properties and it refers to
20 the previous securities structure which we have just
21 mentioned and then a proposed new securities
22 structure.
23 "A new security arrangement has been

approved; (credit application no. 7005)
24 where my CIBT places GBPI 1.45 with KB
London as trustee for the beneficial
25 owner of the deposit. (Yale
Securities) CIBT therefore executes the
26 security documents as trustee and not
in its own personal capacity and CIBT's
27 liability is limited to, the credit
balance in the deposit account. This
28 is in order that the transaction is off
balance sheet for CIBT."
29
35
1 For reasons which CIBT thought were good, the
2 security was being changed and instead they were
3 lodging it as trustee, is that correct?
4 A. That is what the document says.
5 224 Q. It states that the beneficial owner of the deposit
6 is Yale Securities, do you accept that?
7 A. I do, yes.
8 225 Q. That this deposit in the name of Ansbacher, that
9 Yale Securities was the beneficiary?
10 A. As part of the Elizabeth Love Trust.
11 226 Q. Yes, I am just looking at what is stated in this,
12 Yale Securities is a separate company
13 ....(INTERJECTION).
14 A. In responding to you, Judge, I do not want you to
15 think that I am taking Yale separate from the
16 Elizabeth Love Trust, they are part and parcel of
17 the same being, if I may use that word.
18 227 Q. This is a matter that would have to be looked at as
19 I am doing it in the legal way.
20 A. I understand.
21 228 Q. In the legal way Yale Securities is a separate
22 company of which it would appear, although we do not
23 know yet, it would appear that the shares are owned
24 by this trust, but Yale Securities was the
25 beneficial owner of the money which was held in the
26 Ansbacher account?
27 A. I accept that, Judge, yes.
28 229 Q. Just one matter that I have to draw your attention
29 to, it is absolutely clear that Yale Securities was
36
1 a company which was involved from 1971 in your
2 affairs and you were fully conversant with its
3 existence and with its operations. Did you say to
4 Mr. Ryan, the authorised officer, that you had no
5 knowledge of Yale Securities?
6 A. In one interview I said I hadn't and in another
7 interview I said I had. With great respects to
8 Mr. Ryan I went along to his interview as an
9 employee of the bank and was given assurance that
10 the questions I would be asked would be about what I
11 did as a Director of the bank and he ambushed me,
12 Judge, and I got confused and I am sorry about that.
13 230 Q. I see, very well. I just want to ask you some
14 questions about your role as a director of Guinness
15 & Mahon. You have said in your statement there were
16 meetings with the Board only three times a year or
17 so?
18 A. Three or four times a year.
19 231 Q. The main business was carried on by the executives.
20 A. Correct.
21 232 Q. Were you on any committee?
22 A. Yes, I would have been asked to attend committees
23 from time to time if they were discussing something
24 to do with Cork or anything else I could make a
25 contribution to.
26 233 Q. Are you indicating that you only went to Guinness &
27 Mahon three times a year?
28 A. No, no, I would visit regularly. If I was in Dublin
29 once a week I would be in there. I probably didn't
37
1 go once a week, but probably about 40 times a year I
2 suspect.
3 234 Q. You were regularly going there?
4 A. I was, yes.
5 235 Q. As a director of this substantial company you would
6 have had to attend, would you not?
7 A. The bank were partners to me in all of the
8 developments pretty well.
9 236 Q. Apart from that, your duty as a director would
10 require you to ....(INTERJECTION).
11 A. Yes, as a non-Executive I would attend, yes.
12 237 Q. More than just attend, you had a duty as a director,
13 had you not, to supervise the affairs of the company
14 and to familarise yourself with how the company was
15 doing?
16 A. I suppose, Judge, at the board meetings certainly we
17 would get accounts or progress of accounts from
18 companies that were going to be established, but one
19 never as a non-Executive Director saw what loans
20 were being given to people.
21 238 Q. No, I am not saying that.
22 A. I certainly was not aware of the back-to-back or
23 whatever you call it, whatever is in the Press,
24 "suitable security", is that the word they use?
25 That was never discussed in front of me.
26 239 Q. You have said in your statement that you did not
27 know anything about the internal audit report?
28 A. No, that never came before a Board meeting that I
29 was at.
38
1 240 Q. Did you know about the system that was being
2 reported on in the internal report?
3 A. No.
4 241 Q. Did you know that ....(INTERJECTION).
5 A. This was the report which is in the Press which
6 condemns large deposits of money, is that what you
7 are saying?
8 242 Q. No, I am referring to the report which is in
9 Appendix 12 to the McCracken Report which is an
10 internal report from the accountants in the head
11 office in London (Exhibit 16)?
12 A. No, I was not aware of that.
13 243 Q. Do you know what I am talking about now?
14 A. I think I do because I read it in the Press, Judge.
15 244 Q. What I am asking you is did you know about the
16 approved account system?
17 A. No, I did not, Judge.
18 245 Q. Did you not know that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
19 were very large depositors in Guinness & Mahon in
20 Dublin?
21 A. I would have been aware that they were depositors in
22 both London and Dublin but not to the extent that
23 has now been exposed.
24 246 Q. When you say "not to the extent", they were in the
25 accounts, you could see in the accounts a huge
26 percentage of the total deposits?
27 A. We would just get the total number of deposits.
28 247 Q. So you did not know?
29 A. I was never aware of a breakdown of it.
39
1 248 Q. You did not know that your company depended to a
2 very considerable extent ....(INTERJECTION).
3 A. No, I was not aware, Judge.
4 24 9 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Traynor leaving the company?
5 A. Yes.
6 250 Q. Were you aware of the terms on which he left?
7 A. No, I was not.
8 251 Q. Were you aware that one of the terms was that the
9 deposits held by the Cayman company were to be run
10 down over a period of ....(INTERJECTION).
11 A. No, I was not told that.
12 252 Q. Were you aware that people could enter into
13 agreements with Mr. Traynor by which they could
14 lodge money to the Ansbacher account and take money
15 out of the Ansbacher account?
16 A. No, Judge, I was not.
17 253 Q. You were aware that the Ansbacher account was
18 earning money or was earning interest?
19 A. I would imagine any deposits would be earning
20 interest, yes.
21 254 Q. So that Yale Securities if it was the beneficial
22 owner of a deposit was entitled to interest?
23 A. Yes, of course.
24 255 Q. That interest in this case would have gone back to
25 the Cayman Islands to Yale Securities and then back
26 to the trustees?
27 A. If it had any monies on deposit, yes.
28 256 Q. I take it from what you have said today and from
29 your statement that none of the financial
40
1 arrangements that you have been referring to
2 generated any income which you thought should be
3 returned for your own personal income tax purposes?
4 A. Judge, I not alone took advice from Desmond Traynor
5 but I also took advice from Michael McMahon and
6 subse quent to that to his successor in Haughey
7 Boland.
8 257 Q. Who was that?
9 A. Michael McMahon's successor would be Pat Kenny.
10 258 Q. Mr. Kenny. When did you take advice from him?
11 A. More recently because I was dealing with Michael
12 McMahon for a long time.
13 259 Q. When did he ....(INTERJECTION).
14 A. Michael died in 1988 or something, I am not too sure
15 of the time he died but some time in the mid 1980's.
16 I took advice also, I remember, on the Wildwood, all
17 of that aspect was done by the bank through Don Reid
18 because they gave tax advice on that.
19 260 Q. I was going to ask you about that. I interrupted
20 you, after Mr. McMahon's death who did you take
21 advice from?
22 A. From his successor in Guinness & Mahon, I think it
23 was Pat Kenny but I am not sure. There was a lady I
24 used to deal with inside, mostly anyway. I did not
25 need the advice of senior tax advisors really in a
26 way for a lot of my time with them.
27 261 Q. Mr. Don Reid gave you advice?
28 A. He gave advice to the bank on the setting up of the
29 Wildwood situation.
41
1 262 Q. Did you discuss it with him?
2 A. I imagine that would have been discussed with him
3 and Guinness & Mahon.
4 263 Q. Did you discuss it?
5 A. No, not personally.
6 264 Q. Why did you mention Don Reid then?
7 A. Because I wanted to tell you in relation to Wildwood
8 that was a separate issue that was not dealt with by
9 my own tax people.
10 265 Q. Did you discuss Wildwood with Don Reid?
11 A. He would have set up the arrangement and I would
12 have checked it out with my own people.
13 266 Q. Did you discuss it with Mr. Don Reid?
14 A. I imagine I did, yes, but it would have been done in
15 consultation with Guinness & Mahon, Judge.
16 267 Q. When you say you discussed it with Mr. Don Reid, Don
17 Reid was advisor to Guinness & Mahon?
18 A. Yes.
19 268 Q. Then you say you would have checked it out with your
20 own people, who were they?
21 A. I would have asked whoever was the tax guy dealing
22 in Haughey Boland.
23 269 Q. At that time who would it have been?
24 A. I don't know, I can't remember. I imagine it would
25 have been Michael McMahon.
26 270 Q. Did Mr. Reid write out any memorandum for you?
27 A. Not that I am aware of, no. If he did I don't
28 recollect it.
29 271 Q. Do you think that Mr. McMahon would have
42
1 .... (INTERJECTION) .
2 A. Mr. McMahon was a very bad writer, as I said to you
3 already.
4 272 Q. Do you think he would have had any correspondence
5 with Mr. Reid?
6 A. I doubt it. I would have given him what we were
7 doing and asked him was it okay.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is all I have to ask
9 you about, but as I have
10 indicated we will have to get further information
11 later on. Ms. Mackey may like to ask you some
12 questions.
13 273 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just a couple of
14 questions, Mr. Love.
15 First of all, in relation to the Cayman trust, the
16 Elizabeth Love Trust, has any further monies been
17 lodged to it since its setting up?
18 A. The money that was borrowed from IIB as I understand
19 it ended up with Yale and then came back.
20 274 Q. Came back to?
21 A. Back to back the IIB loan.
22 275 Q. No, the question I asked you was about the Elizabeth
23 Love Trust.
24 A. The Elizabeth Love Trust as far as money is
25 concerned, there is Yale in my mind.
26 276 Q. So that money came back to Yale, so that augmented,
27 is that what you are telling me?
28 A. Sorry?
29 277 Q. Maybe I will phrase it another way. The Elizabeth
43
1 Love Trust was set up with monies that came from the
2 Channel Island Trust?
3 A. Yes, into Yale and then the trust.
4 278 Q. Were any further monies added over the years?
5 A. The only monies added over the years would have been
6 the £2 million that was borrowed from IIB.
7 279 Q. Right. No further lodgments were made by yourself
8 or your wife or your family to this trust?
9 A. No.
10 280 Q. Obviously interest accruing on Yale's deposit, as
11 you explained to us, would have been going back into
12 the trust as well from Ansbacher?
13 A. Yes.
14 281 Q. You told us a little in your statements about
15 borrowings that you made from the Elizabeth Love
16 Trust through Yale, could you tell us a little bit
17 about that now?
18 A. I made borrowings in the amount, they were all of a
19 personal nature and they would be paid back.
20 282 Q. How was that arranged and who arranged that you
21 could make borrowings?
22 A. When the trust was set up it was agreed that I use
23 or I borrowed, I think, in the early mid 1970's when
24 things were not too good, I borrowed money at that
25 time from the trust and then did nothing really
26 until the early 1990's.
27 283 Q. You said when the trust was set up it was agreed
28 that you could do this?
29 A. Yes.
44
1 284 Q. Who agreed this?
2 A. The trust agreed it with me.
3 285 Q. Who on behalf of the trust?
4 A. Des Traynor.
5 286 Q. Des Traynor was not one of the trustees, was he?
6 A. I imagine he agreed it with the trustees,
7 Ms. Mackey.
8 287 Q. Did you have any documentary evidence of that?
9 A. None whatsoever.
10 288 Q. It was clear to you from the inauguration of the
11 trust that you could borrow from it?
12 A. Correct, yes.
13 289 Q. Mr. Traynor told you this verbally, did he?
14 A. Yes.
15 290 Q. Can you recollect the conversation of what was said?
16 A. No, I can't.
17 291 Q. Did you ask him if this would be possible?
18 A. I imagine I did, but I can't recollect, Ms. Mackey,
19 other than it had to be done as I was advised by
20 Michael McMahon that it had to be a done on a
21 commercial basis and that was the reason for the
22 1.5% charge.
23 292 Q. You were advised by Michael McMahon that the trust
24 had to be ....(INTERJECTION).
25 A. If I borrowed money from the trust I had to pay
26 commercial rates for it.
27 293 Q. This was something you had discussed with Michael
28 McMahon from the time of the setting up of the
29 trust?
45
1 A. Yes.
2 294 Q. Whether you could borrow money from it?
3 A. Correct, and was it permissible and was it in order.
4 295 Q. Then you went to Des Traynor and you asked him to
5 agree that?
6 A. I am not too sure, the idea might have come from
7 him, I don't know. I would obviously have
8 cross-checked it with Michael McMahon at the time.
9 296 Q. Did you ever sign a letter of wishes in respect of
10 this trust?
11 A. No.
12 297 Q. Did your wife?
13 A. No, not that I am aware of.
14 298 Q. Have you ever seen a letter of wishes in relation to
15 this trust?
16 A. No.
17 299 Q. In relation to the borrowings from the trust over
18 the years, you have given us an amount of capital
19 and interest.
20 A. Correct, yes, most of it is interest.
21 300 Q. Did you make repayments over the years of interest?
22 A. No, the repayments will be made from the monies
23 Lyndon owe me.
24 301 Q. They will be made but to date no repayments have
25 been made?
26 A. No.
27 302 Q. In relation to the Channel Island trust, that is the
28 trust in your name, is that still in existence?
29 A. No, as far as I know it is not.
46
1 303 Q. Can you tell us when that came to an end?
2 A. I don't know. I have sent out information asking
3 about that. I suspect it ended when the money was
4 transferred to Cayman.
5 304 Q. In 1971?
6 A. It would have been later, the mid 1970's or
7 something like that.
8 305 Q. I think you said you were going to check about this,
9 there seems to be some confusion about dates.
10 A. Yes, I agree with that. I don't disagree with that.
11 Again I want to make the point to you and I think I
12 made it to the Judge, it was for me a very
13 unsettling time and things about it I tend to put
14 out of my mind. I was over the wall and thankfully
15 by 1981 there was light at the end of the tunnel and
16 certainly there was very much light at the end of
17 the tunnel in the 1990's even though the accounts
18 declare otherwise. Thankfully nowadays it is all
19 behind me.
20 306 Q. As the Judge said, all the more reason why if we can
21 get to look at documents relating to this we would
22 will be able to clarify it.
23 A. I am well aware of that, but you must understand in
24 my mind that it was a part of my life that I wanted
25 to just put aside and get rid of.
26 MS. MACKEY: I understand that. I do
27 not have any further
28 questions to ask you, Mr. Love. Thank you.
29 307 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Before we finish Mr. Love,
47
1 did you say that your son
2 has already been or is going to ....(INTERJECTION).
3 A. I asked him to go to the Cayman and he went to find
4 the trustee.
5 308 Q. How long ago was that?
6 A. About four weeks ago and he has been promised that
7 information will be forthcoming.
8 309 Q. Have you anything in writing from them?
9 A. Nothing whatsoever.
10 310 Q. From the Cayman?
11 A. No.
12 311 Q. Did he ask specifically for the matters that we
13 raised in our letter, namely, the Trust Deed?
14 A. He asked for the Trust Deed and they said they would
15 have to go into the archives to see could they find
16 it.
17 312 Q. They would be prepared to give it?
18 A. Yes. This is the first time we found them in any
19 way -- when we phoned them it was a waste of bloody
20 time. When I got your letter I phoned and I was
21 told blah blah blah, so I asked Clayton to go.
22 313 Q. What were you told?
23 A. They are very reluctant to give information unless
24 on a one to one basis. They seem to be cooperating,
25 that is all I can say to you, Judge.
26 314 Q. What about statements from the company Yale
27 Securities, annual reports?
28 A. There were never any audits, there were just a
29 Statement of Affairs.
1 315 Q. What about Statements of Affairs, can you get those
2 over the years?
3 A. I don't know. Des prepared those.
4 316 Q. Will you try?
5 A. I will. Traynor used to give me those and I don't
6 know whether they are out there.
7 317 Q. Will you try?
8 A. I will, yes.
9 318 Q. You know the documents from our letter that we
10 require?
11 A. Yes, I do, Judge.
12 319 Q. We will be in touch with you arising from today and
13 arising from the statement we got yesterday, but in
14 the meantime if you have got documents that you are
15 going to send on to us that you would do so.
16 MR. O'HANLON: I was going to say, Judge,
17 in relation to the
18 documents, to date we have assembled quite a number
19 of documents and obviously the IIB and GM documents
20 which you have seen yourselves, but in addition to
21 that we have documents relating to that whole
22 Guinness Mahon saga in London, the various
23 transactions between the parties right up to the
24 1990 transaction whereby, in effect, Yale acquired
25 the debt from Guinness Mahon London which Lyndon
26 repaid and we have that assignment and so forth. In
27 relation to the Cayman situation, obviously we do
28 not know how long this is going to take but our hope
29 is that we will actually have accounts in addition
49
1 to trust documents. What I was going to suggest is,
2 and it is not ideal that one do these things
3 piecemeal, but nevertheless because we are not in
4 entire control of the situation that we would give
5 you what we have at the moment immediately and
6 obviously follow up once we get the balance.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well, thank you.
9 END OF INTERVIEW
10
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50
STATEMENT OF J. CLAYTON LOVE JNR. TO INSPECTORS APPOINTED
BY ORDER OF THE HIGH COURT TO ANSBACHER ( CAYMAN )
LIMITED.
1.0. FAMILY BACKGROUND:
1.1. My father Clayton Love Snr. was born 9 May 1903. He died in 1983. There were
four children of the marriage namely Betsy, Bryan, John and I. Bryan and John are
twins.
1.2. My mother and father separated when I was in my teens. This was a particularly
difficulty separation. My father had commenced, a relationship with a German
national named Anna Gertrude Heidom who had been sent to live with us by her
uncle and guardian at the end of the war. The relationship led to the end of my parents
marriage. On the separation Anna Gertrude and my fattier moved out of the family
home to a house in Cork City and later to Dublin. My brother Bryan went to live with
our father and Anna Gertrude in Dublin. Betsy, John and I stayed with our mother in
Cork. As is undoubtedly common in situations of this nature various members of the
family took sides. My sister Betsy did not speak to nor meet her father again until a
few days before he died.
1.3.1 married Elizabeth Love (nee McCann) in 1951. We have three children namely
Clayton, Sarah and Neill. My son Clayton also has a son who is called Clayton.
2.0. THE FAMILY BUSINESS:
2.1. The family business consisted of a group of companies collectively known as the
Clayton Love Group ("CLG" ) which was controlled by my late father who was the
principal shareholder. The companies traded as Ship Chandlers, Fish Processors, Fish
Wholesalers, General Wholesalers, Fishing Boat Operators, Restaurant Operators and
Frozen Food Distributors. This latter business held the Findus Frozen Foods
Distributionfranchise for Ireland.
2.2. My father, my brothers Bryan and John, Anna Gertrude and I worked with CLG.
2.3. In the late 1950's my late father decided to lookfor a largerfirm of Accountants
to service CLG which at this stage was operating in Cork, Dublin and Southampton
and was also planning to expand to London and France. In the events Haughey
Boland & Co. were chosen and that firm nominated the late Desmond Traynor to
handle the account. The first occasion on which I met Des Traynor was in or about
1959.
t
2.4. The late Mr. Traynor was quickly forced to adapt to the difficulties that existed
within the CLG and suffice it to say that before long he gained the respect of all of us.
He became an unofficial referee in areas of disagreement of which there were many.
He had a great ability to resolve differences of opinion and indeed he was appointed a
Director of CLG in the late 1960's.
2.5. However differences and difficulties within the family business continued and I
think it is fair to say that many of these differences were of a personal nature and
irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the situation undoubtedly many of them had as
their origin the unhappy differences which had arisen between our parents. My own
relationship with my father was not good and we were often at odds with each other. I
was chosen to represent Ireland at sailing for the Olympic Games in Melbourne in
1956. My father refused to permit me have holidays and I was obliged to withdraw
from the team.
2.6. From the mid 1960's Des Traynor encouraged me to consider alternative
employment options. He felt I would be better off outside CLG. One of the options
which I gave careful consideration to was emigrating to the U.S.A. or Canada.
Ultimately on Des Traynor's advice I opted to stay in Ireland and I left the
employment of CLG in 1969. Within a fairly short period of time I was appointed a
Director of a number of companies and I also commenced work as a property
developer in my own right. Des Traynor was myfinancial and business advisor.
2.7. My personal and professional relationship with Des Traynor continued. I relied
on his advice and over the years I never had cause to question his advice and actions
on my behalf. I found him a most trustworthy and competent advisor. He was discreet
and confidential and for example never discussed other the activities or businesses of
other clients with me nor in my presence. I vested considerable authority and
discretion in Mr. Traynor and as stated never had reason to doubt or question his
capacity or judgement while acting on my behalf.
^ 3.0 CLAYTON LOVE DISTRIBUTION LIMITED:
3.1.1 have been associated in the media with this company. I am not nor have I ever
been a Director, Shareholder or Executive in this company. This media speculation or
reporting has essentially confused my late father and L
4.0 GUINNESS AND MAHON (IRELAND) LIMITED ( "THE BANK" )
4.1.1 was asked by the late John Guinness who was a friend of mine through sailing
to become a non-executive Director of the Bank so as to assist in developing its
business in the Cork region. Mr. Guinness was then a Director of Guinness Mahon &
Co. Ltd. ("GM") the holding company of the Bank and the Chairman of the Bank.
The Bank wanted to develop business in the Cork area through a local branch by
means of a locally based board member. I was accordingly appointed a Director of the
Bank in 1969 and I retired on 30 April 1990.
4.2.The Irish Board members included William Forward, Maurice O'Kelly, John
Guinness, Desmond Traynor, and Don O'Connor. All of these, with the exception of
Mr.O'Connor were executives of the Bank and/or of GM. I was the sole non-
executive Director. The Secretary was Gerald McCracken. GM nominated a number
of directorsfrom time to time.
4.3. Approximately 3 or 4 Board meetings were held in'Dublin each year. In general
the meetings lasted circa one hour or so and were followed by lunch. I do not recall
ever having received minutes of any such meetings. The meetings followed an
Agenda and as far as I can recall dealt with the Banks own trading accounts, bad debt
write offs etc. While I did not attend every board meeting, I did attend such meetings
on a regular basis. During my term the management of the Bank changed on a number
of occasions as indeed did the identity of its controlling shareholders.
4.4. In addition to Board meetings, I assisted the Bank informally when required. In
general such assistance dealt with new business, e.g. what my views were on a
particular project or potential borrower.
4.5. Business discussed at board meetings did not deal with individual accounts and
save on very rare occasions I would not have been aware of any specific dealings or
transactions which customers had with the Bank. I might have known that particular
companies or individuals may have been customers but no more than that. I was
therefore generally aware of the main Cork based customers and the people that the
Bank targeted through its Cork branch for the purpose of developing its business. I
was asked on occasion to arrange introductions with professionals such as solicitors
and accountants and to attend local branch functions. I was certainly not aware of
specific dealings or facilities which customers had either locally in Cork or through
Dublin. The business which was discussed at board meetings generally dealt with
overall performance direction and the development strategy for the Bank. Accordingly
I was aware that the Bank like other Banks had investments in Banks and Trustee
Companies in the Channel Islands and in the Cayman Islands. I was aware as to the
general performance of these operations and as to whether the Bank had disposed of
these investments or branches.
4.6. Indeed to reinforce this position I was not aware (if press reports are true) that the
late Hugh Coveney T.D. who was a very close personalfriend of mine was also a
customer of the Bank and further that the late Des Traynor was hisfinancial adviser.
Other than as detailed on the heading Yale Securities Limited hereafter, I was not
aware of any day to day operations of these branches, die identity of any of the
customers or the size or nature of any particular transactions.
4.7.1 was aware that the Bank disposed of its interest in the Cayman Islands in or
about I think 1978 to a consortium which I understood involved Des Traynor in some
shape or form. I have no idea as to what his direct or indirect involvement was or as to
any of the other partners in the venture. Des Traynor never informed me of the
position nor did any one else in the Bank. Des Traynor never asked me if I wished to
join such consortium and as stated to this day I have no idea as to who else was
involved save what I read in the media.
4.8.1 had no knowledge whatever of Des Traynor's activities or those of the other
executives within the Bank; the extent of GMCT or other customer deposits in the
Bank; the reported internal auditreportcarried out by GM; nor of the term "suitably
secured".
4.9.1 believe I met John Furze on three occasions. The last time was at Des Traynors
funeral. Thefirst and second occasions were at the Bank. Each of these meetings was
very brief and of a social nature. I was aware of the existence of GMCT and
understood that it carried on offshore banking and trust services. While I knew that
GMCT was sold to Des Traynor and others, I did not know the details and never
spoke to Des Traynor about it.
4.10.1 understood that Overseas Nominees was a trust company owned by GMCT in
much the same way that Mars Nominees was of the Bank.
4.11. As aresultof problems encountered by me in the U.K. property market in the

mid to late 1970's my continued position as a Director of the Bank was always in
doubt and this is elaborated on later on in this statement.
5.0 MY PROPERTY DEVELOPMENTS FROM THE LATE 1960's:

5.1. The first major development which I undertook was the construction of the
Douglas Shopping Centre in Cork. This was the second such shopping centre built in
Ireland, the Stillorgan Centre being thefirst. At this stage Des Traynor was the joint
Managing Director of the Bank and he looked after all of the funding and financial
planning aspects for the project The Bank was a partner in the venture to the extent of
40%. I focused on the planning and development issues and our relationship was very
much a continuation of how we had worked together in CLG. Des Traynor was not a
shareholder or partner in the development nor indeed in any subsequent developments
which I undertook. The Douglas Shopping Centre development was a success and I
moved on to other developments with Des Traynor handling all aspects of my
financial affairs. Des Traynor dealt with both the commercial and financial affairs of
the property business and indeed he also handled my private banking affairs.
5.2. From the start of the 1970's Des Traynor pointed me in the direction of London
and I began to look at a number of options which were introduced to me by GM in
association with the Guinness and Mahon Property Company Limited ( " GMPC" )
based in Dublin, a subsidiary of the Bank. That business was carried on through
Channel Island companies which were owned by a Channel Island Discretionary Trust
called the Clayton Love C.I. Trust. The potential beneficiaries of which were my
family and me. To the best of my recollection the Trustees were a Mr. Woodward
and/or the Guinness and Mahon Jersey Trust Limited or nominees thereof. I do not
have a copy of the Trust Deed.
5.3. I was advised by GM, the Bank and Des Traynor that the most tax efficient
manner in carrying out developments in the U.K. was through Channel Island
companies owned by a Channel Island Discretionary Trust. Any profits earned would,
so long as they were not remitted to Ireland, not be subject to Irish tax. Accordingly
they set up the necessary structure. At the time I took tax advice from Michael
McMahon who was then a tax partner in Haughey Boland. In particular his advice
dealt with a suitable tax structure and the advice which I received was that such a
structure was lawful and tax efficient Further he advised me that so long as no
disbursements were made to me I would have no liability for income tax in Ireland.
He further advised that if I borrowed moneyfrom the Trusts or companies I would .
have to do so on a commercial basis as otherwise I might have a liability to income
tax in Ireland.
5.4. hi the events I identified some interesting opportunities in London in association

with GMPC and we began assembling a site for a major office development in the
Whitechapel area of London. A large number of interests had to be acquired and many
of these were surplus to our needs. It was nevertheless important for us to buy in these
interests so as to develop the site. This acquisition tgok a number of years to achieve.
Interests which were surplus to requirements were disposed of and this resulted in the
generation of profits of circa £75,000/£80,000 to which I willrefer to later.
5.5. GM were the bankers to the Whitechapel project and essentially the project was a
joint venture between the Clayton Love C.I. Trust companies and GMPC. GM
advanced £2.6m. stg. to the project. This was guaranteed as to 60% by me and 40%
by GMPC which was a 40% shareholder in the project.
5.6. Our plan was to assemble a site, obtain planning approval, find a prospective
tenant and sign up that tenant in advance of commencing construction. The U.K.
Inland Revenue surfaced as the likely party to take a letting of the entire development
and we were in final negotiations with them when the property market largely
collapsed. As a result the U.K. Inland Revenue were forced tore-assesstheir property
requirements and at the ultimate moment pulled out of the pre-let negotiations leaving
us with a project in respect of which we did not have a tenant Every effort was made
to locate an alternative tenant but it became apparent that it was going to be very
difficult to do so in the aftermath of the property crash or indeed even to dispose of
the assets without incurring enormous losses.
5.7. Des Traynor, GMPC, the Bank, GM and I worked hard to rescue the situation.
My position appeared quite hopeless. I had given a personal guarantee and the monies
due on foot of that guarantee were far greater than my assets. The only card I had was
that GM had introduced the Whitechapel project to me and the Bank was a 40%
shareholder in the project. I felt that they had responsibility to assist infinding a
solution. GM, the Bank and Des Traynor assessed the situation and came up with an
arrangement whereby my assets and those of the companies involved in the
Whitechapel project came under GM control. I had little choice but to accept. Lyndon
Properties Limited ("Lyndon") was the vehicle for the implementation of the deal.
5.8. GM appointed three of their executives to the board of Lyndon and effectively
took control of the company and this remained so until 23 April 1981 when two of the
three GM appointed Directors resigned as a result of a further agreement with GM in
relation to my indebtedness and that of Lyndon.
5.9. By 30 April 1982 the balance sheet of Lyndon showed a cumulative loss of
£5,519,080. GM was owed £2,620,527 and I was owed £3,345,566. These loans were
payable in sterling. My loan was acquired from GM at nominal cost as part of the re-
structuring. GM were entitled to interest on part of its loan. I was not entitled to
interest on my loan. Any repayment of my loan would give rise to a Capital Gains Tax
charge for me on the amount repaid and it was clearly understood and agreed that I
would not receive any repayment on my loan until such time as GMs loan was
cleared.
5.10. By 1990 Lyndons total indebtedness was circa IR£$.lm. and it had accumulated
losses of ER£3.1m. GM was owed £3.3m. Stg. and I was owed £2.8m
5.11. The part of the GM loan bearing interest had to be repaid. However an
agreement was not finalised in relation to the element of the GM loan on which
interest was not being earned. My understanding was that if the interest bearing
element of the loan was satisfactorily paid then^GM might look favourably on
disposing of the non-interest bearing loan on favourable terms to me. Des Traynor
informed me that at the time GM wasfirmly of the view that there was no chance of
them or me receiving repayment of my loan or their non-interest bearing element of
their loan. Finally in March 1976 GM agreed terms and these were detailed in their
letter of 24 March 1976 to Lyndon.
5.12. Des Traynor was concerned about this last element as personnel in the Bank
were changing from time to time as indeed was ownership of the Bank itself. His
concern was that an "understanding" may be worthless as a result of a change in
personnel and particularly of course if my net worth increased. As I understand the
position Mr. Traynor sought clarification with GM and by April 1990 the final
element of the first two parts of the loan was repaid. Des Traynor negotiated with GM
and their preferred option was to assign the non-interest bearing element of the loan to
a Third Party at a nominal cost of IR£1,000. The amount of the loan was £2,100,000
stg.
5.13. Des Traynor proposed that Yale Securities Limited should purchase the loan
from GM. This had two advantages
GM was no longer in control of the loan and the uncertainty surrounding the
loan and my potential personal liability was removed.
The Elizabeth Love Trust which was the owner of Yale Securities Limited had
an opportunity of generating income should Lyndon be able to repay the loan.
5.14. Accordingly Overseas Nominees purchased the GM loan on behalf of Yale

Securities Limitd for IR£1,000. Yale Securities Limited is a Cayman Islands
registered company owned by a Cayman Island Discretionary Trust called the
Elizabeth Love Trust which on occasion has been referred to as the Yale Trust. On
acquisition of the loan Yale Securities Limited demanded repayment of the loan from
Lyndon. Appropriate exchange control approval was obtainedfrom the Central Bank
and Lyndon paid Yale from monies borrowed from Irish Intercontinental Bank
("DOB"). A condition of the arrangement with Yale was that it would place the monies
it received on deposit as security for the IIB loan to Lyndon. This security would
reduce as Lyndon repaid IIB.
5.15. Des Traynor handled these transactions with the Trustees of the Elizabeth Love
Trust and the Directors of Yale Securities Limited.
6.0 THE ELIZABETH LOVE TRUST
6.1. After I left executive employment with CLG. I was advised to establish a trust so
as to make provision for my wife and children in the event that personal guarantees
etc. which were required for property development would be called as a result of
which I might lose my assets.
6.2. A trust was established in the Channel Islands and this was the Clayton Love C.L
Trust The trust owned a number of companies which were active in the U.K. property
market. Later Des Traynor advised that a discretionary trustfor my wife and children
be established by the trustees of the Clayton Love C.I. Trust and this was set up and
based in the Cayman Islands. This was known as the Elizabeth Love Trust. That trust
had £75,000/£80,000 settled on it by the trustees of the Clayton Love C.I. Trust. The
source of this money was the profits generatedfrom some of the property activity in
the UJC The Elizabeth Love Trust owned two Cayman Island companies namely
Orchid Limited and Yale Securities Limited. Initially it loaned these monies to Orchid
which later repaid the monies and then loaned them to Yale Securities Limited.
Orchid ceased trading and was removedfrom the Cayman Islands company register
some years ago. Yale Securities Limited continues to trade but it has yet to make a
distribution to the Elizabeth Love Trust.
6.3. From the outset it was agreed with the Trustees of the Elizabeth Love Trust that I
could borrow as requiredfrom the Trust via Yale Securities Limited at a commercial
rate which was calculated at 1.5% above deposit rates. This rateroseto 16/17% in the
early 1980's. My indebtedness as at 30 September 1999 was £2,497,473 stg of which
£1,281,684 stg was interest I expect that by the end of this year Lyndon will be in a
position to repay what it owes me and I plan to repay Yale Securities Limited from
those net proceeds.
6.4. As Yale Securities Limited is the only asset of the Elizabeth Love Trust and as
the Elizabeth Love Trust has not made any distributions to the potential beneficiaries
of that trust, the value of Yale Securities Limited is essentially the value of the trust as
at this stage.
6.5. Yale has had a mixed but ultimately successful trading record to date. It has
achieved its objective albeit somewhat later than planned.
6.6. All monies received by Yale has been generatedfrom trading activities save the
original loan from the Elizabeth Love Trust which in turn received thisfrom the
Clayton Love C.I. Trust Those monies were generatedfrom trading activities outside
the State.
6.7. The primary motive in establishing Yale was not as might be expected taxation
avoidance. Rather it was to protect myfirmly in the event of afinancial disaster. Over
the years Yale has supported activities which I have been involved in in the Irish
property market in the sense of providing loan security and direct loans to various
property companies with which I was involved.
6.8. Yale was also involved in a property investment in the United States which was
unsuccessful and indeed considerable losses incurred. That investment was through
Lynbrette Trust and related to an investment in a trailer park in Arizona which was
banked by AIB.
7.0 ANSBACHER DEPOSITS
7.1. Until the publication of the McCracken report I was unaware of the scheme
which Des Traynor operated on behalf of Ansbacher Cayman Limited ("Ansbacher")
depositors and I say this in both my capacity as a foxpier Director of the Bank and as a
connected person to Yale Securities Limited and indeed as a personalfriend of the
late Des Traynor.
7.2. I was aware that Yale had deposits with GMCT and that these had an account
reference of "M". I did not know where the deposits were held. However I was aware
that GMCT did have deposits with the Bank and also with GM.
7.3. Whenever I required to borrowfrom Yale, I advised Des Traynor who would
either directly request the money or in the alternative get me to contact some one in
either Dublin or in the Cayman Islands. I was very open about this and indeed most of
the requests were confirmed by me in writing. I simply assumed that the money was
transferred from Yale through the Cayman Islands.
7.4. Since Des Traynors death any dealings have been with Ansbacher.
7.5. I know both Sam Field Corbett and Padraig Collery and approached them for
clarification as to how Des Traynor had been handling any of Yale Securities money
and while they were happy to assist they were unable to give me any helpful
information.
7.6.1 have been in direct contact with Ansbacher who have been helpful in terms of
providing information on Yales accounts but have not been able to give me any
information beyond that I am awaiting copy of the Yale accountsfrom Ansbacher.
7.7.1 believe that loansfrom Yale Securities Limited were routed to me via Hamilton
Ross on the instructions of Des Traynor.
J.
(^Jlarch 2000.
SUPPLEMENTAL STATEMENT OF J. CLAYTON LOVE JNR.
TO INSPECTORS APPOINTED BY ORDER OF THE HIGH
COURT TO ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
1.0. CLAYTON LOVE C.I. TRUST:
1.1. This Trust was established in or about 1971. While to date I have been unable to
obtain a copy of the Trust Deed I am aware that one was executed as I have
discovered a copy document sent to me by Des Traynor showing that under Clause
32(1) of the Deed Christopher Woodward resigned as a Trustee and appointed
Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust Limited in his place on 17 December 1973. However
I understand that Guinness & Mahon Jersey Trust Limited (Reg. No. 61S8) was
dissolved on 2 October 1989. The only documents which I hold are those already
furnished being a copy of the said document which was sent by the late Mr. Traynor
to me on 14 February 1974 and the Joan Williams letter to me of 26 April 1974. As
previously indicated this Trust owned a number of property companies which traded
in the U.K. It generated some funds and settled c.£75,000/£80,000 on the Elizabeth
Love Trust. The late Mr. Traynor established the Trust for me and while I have no
recollection of signing a Trust Deed, clearly such must have been prepared. I have
never received a distributionfrom this Trust. As previously advised I was advised that
it was perfectly legitimate to establish the Trust at the time of its establishment.
2.0. THE ELIZABETH LOVE TRUST:
2.1. The late Mr. Traynor arranged for the establishment of this Trust and as stated the
Trust was established on 23 April 1971.
3.0. TRANSCRIPT OF EXAMINATION 8 MARCH 2000:
3.1. I wish to clarify certain of the responses given by me during my examination on 8

March 2000 as follows:-
Q7. Since the date of my examination my son has travelled to the Cayman Islands and
obtained a copy of the Trust Deed which we now know is dated 23 April 1971.
Q30. My wife Betty signed the Deed.
Q35. As stated we now know that the Trust Deed was signed by my wife Betty.
1 OOCO233/OU0IMSSIMA
. TT
Q38. Please refer to the Des Traynor letter of 2 November 1972 regarding the initial capital
of £40,518.35 and £20,000 which was paid to the Trust in 1971 and 1972. These
monies were transferred from the Channel Islands to the Cayman Islands.
Q55. The only statement ever shown to me by Des Traynor constituting what I would
regard as a Bank statement is the copy statement of Guinness & Mahon Limited
furnished by me. Other than that document the only document which Mr. Traynor
ever gave to me was a form of Statement of Affairs which as stated he gave me once a
year at most.
Q69. The American property investment was via Lynbrette Trust and not Lyndon
Properties.
Q89. My answer is incorrect The properties were assembled from 1969 (please refer to
paragraph 5.2. of my statement and to Q7 of the transcript).
Q108. We now know that the Channel Islands Trust was established on 3 September 1971.
However it was in the process of being established for some period before that but for
how long I cannot be certain. The 1971 advance of £40,518 to the Cayman Trust was
I believefrom profits generated by the property companies in the U.K. I can certainly
state that the source was notfrom any income or capital of mine or that of my wife
which was generated in Ireland.
Qlll. The years are incorrect Please refer to the 1976 Bank re-structuring document.
Q150. Et seq: Lynbrette was a Trust wherein Yale invested with others in a property venture
in the United States. As previously advised the development was unsuccessful.
Q171. Yale's M and Ml account were set off against personal debts.
Q179. The account (Ml) was the property of Yale Securities Limited.
Q189:
195. I have checked the accounts of Lyndon Properties and these payments are treated as a
loan by Lyndon to Yale.
Q196-
202. These cheques i.e. £30,000 and £7,000 were lodgedfrom personal accounts and were
re-payments of loans by me to the late Mr. Traynor. Insofar as I can ascertain the
monies have nothing whatever to do with the Elizabeth Love Trust or Yale Securities
Limited. On a number of occasions Mr. Traynor made personal advances to me for
limited periods of time. While I have no recollection of these monies, I believe that
these cheques represented repayments by me of such advances.
Q199. I want to make it abundantly clear that I have not at any stage used the Ansbacher
accounts as a personal account or anything of that nature. We are endeavouring to
obtain a copy of the Yale accounts and these will of course be provided once received.
«>OOJV!OU«/t31SSU-IATT
2
C/U05/0 2/06Q400 4
l i p
THIS INDENTURE OF SETTLEMENT is made the day of fâvvl

A.D. 1971 BBTWBBH SLIZAHSTH L0V3 . of "Clanricarde", Blackrock
Road, Cork, Ireland (hereinafter called "the Settlor") of
the one part and GVIMESS MASON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED a
company incorporated under the laws of the Cayman Islands
arid carrying on business therein (hereinafter called "the
Trustees" which term shall also include any additional or
successor trustee or trustees hereof) of the other part
WHEREAS the Settlor has caused the property-

described in the First Schedule hereto (which together
with the money investments and property for the time being
representing the same and any additions or diminishments
thereto and any further property becoming subject to the
»
trusts hereof is hereinafter called "the Trust Fund") to

be duly transferred into the name or under the control of
the Trustees with the intent that the same shall be held
upon the trusts hereinafter expressed
NOW THIS SETTLEMENT WITNESSETH as follows:
1. The Trustees shall stand possessed of the Trust

Fund during the period commencing on the date of execution
of these presents and terminating on the expiration of
twenty (20) years after the death of the last survivor of
the lineal descendents now living of ..His Late Majesty King
George the Fifth or on the expiration of seventy years from
the date hereof (whichever shall be the earlier)- (said periocE
being /
5
C/'_03/02/CcC 4 00
^•"v^" y '-^'"v v.""1!1""111.* 1

I1' "ill in I
Page Two
being hereinafter called "the Accumulation Periodand

said termination data being hereinafter called "the
T'
Fixed Bate") UPOH TEUST as' to investments or property
other than money either to permit all or any of the sane
to remain as invested for as long as the Trustees shall
in their absolute discretion deem Jit or to sell call in
or convert into money all or any of such investments or
property UPQM TRUST, as to money including the money
arising from any such sale calling in or conversion as
)
aforesaid to invest the same in or upon any of the invest-
««
meats hereinafter authorised
2. TBS Trustees may apply or invest the Trust Fund

in the purchase of or at interest upon the security of such
stocks funds shares securities options or other investments
or property whether real or personal movaEe or immovable
of whatever nature and wherever situate (including any
fractional or undivided interest therein and including the
purchase maintenance or improvement of a freehold or lease-
hold dwellinghouse situate anywhere in the world for use
as a residence) and whether involving liability or not and
whether producing income or not or upon such personal
credit with or without security, .as the Trustees in their
absolute discretion shall think fit with power from time
to time to vary such investments for others of a like
nature (yet being under no duty to diversify investments)
and with, power to hold cash funds uninvested and other
non-income producing property to ..the extent that the
Trustees shall have the same full and unrestricted powers
of investing the Trust Fund in all respects as if they
were /
Page Three
•ware absolute owners beneficially entitled PROVIDED however

that in the professed execution of the trusts and powers
hereof the Trustees shall not be liable for any loss to
the Trust Fund arising by reason of any investments made
in good 'faith or by -reason of any mistake or omission
mads in good faith by the Trustees or by reason of any
other matter or thing except wilful and individual fraud
or wilful and individual wrong-doing on the part of the
Trustees who are sought to be made liable without limiting
the generality of the foregoing the Trustees are hereby
specifically empowered to male investments and to acquire
property without any requirement of diversification even
though such investments or property may be highly specul&-ti\
or not of a type which are ordinarily legal or suitable
trust investments or holdings in particular the Trustees
may margin or hypothecate trust assets or securities in
whole or in part sell short purchase or sell-options puts
calls or other contracts or securities or commodities and
carry on trading activities of every type whatsoever
3. THE Trustees shall have the power to sell lease

or exchange and to grant options to purchase lease or
exchange any property movable or immovable (which expression
shall be deemed always to include any part or share of slvlj-
such property which may at any time constitute the whole
or any part of the Trust Fund) either at public auction oir
private sale for such consideration and on such terras credit
or security as the Trustees may deem advisable and wbetherr
for the purpose of re-investmant distribution .or diversiorr.
and no purchaser on any sale by the Trustees or other person
deal i nor tu-i+'K ™ •
Page Four
into the propriety or validity of any act of the Trustees

or to see to the application of any money paid or property
transferred to or'"upon the order of the Trustees
4. During the Accumulation Period the Trustees shall

stand possessed of the Trust Fund and the income thereof
upon^tha following trusts that is to say:
(a) Upon Trust for all or any to the exclusion

of the others or other of the persons described in the
Second Schedule hereto (hereinafter called "the BeneficiariesfO
* in such shares ajud in such manner and object to such limit-
ations and provisions as the Trustees in their absolute and
uncontrolled discretion at any time or times before the
Fixed Date by any deed or deeds revocable or irrevocable
without transgressing the rule, against perpetuities way
appoint and so thattoyany such appointment the Trustees
may confer upon any appointee any valid power or powers of
appointment in favour of any other Beneficiary AMD it is
expressly provided (without prejudice to the generality of
the foregoing) that the Trustees may appoint on discretionary
trusts and that such trusts may include as objects of the
powers as regards income of the Trust Fund any Beneficiarj
and may dispose of the whole or any part of the Trust Fund
to the Trustees of any other Settlement (in existence at
the time of such disposition and whether in accordance with
the laws of the Cayman Islands or not) under which any
Beneficiary is a beneficiary" .to be held as an accretion
to the Trust Fund thereof and 'subject to' any such appoint-
ment and so far as the same may not extend
(b) /
C / L O S / 0 2 / 0 a 0 4 0 0
Page Five
<b) Upon Trust -to accumulate any income of the

Trust Fund in the -way of compound interest hy investing
the same and the resulting income therefrom in any of
the investments hereinbefore authorised and adding such
accumulations .and resulting income as accretions to and
as "a* part of the Trust Fund
<e) Provided always that the Trustees in their

absolute discretion may pay or apply at any time and from
time to time during the Accumulation Period all or any part
of the income or capital of the Trust #und to or for the
benefit of the Beneficiaries and if more than one for any
one or more to the exclusion of the other or others of
them and in such shares as the Trustees may in their
absolute discretion think fit
(<3) Upon the termination of the Trust on the

Fixed Date Upon Trust as to the balance of the Trust Fund
to or for the benefit of the children of Elizabeth Love
as shall be living immediately before the Fixed Date if
more than one in equal shares per stirpes and subject as
aforesaid the Trustees shall hold the capital and income
of the Trust Fund in Trust for the National Trust of
Ireland and the receipts of the Treasurer for the time
being of such Charity shall be a good discharge to the
Trustees
, (e) Any payment or '-application of the Trust

Fund to or for the benefit of any"one or more of the
parties hereinbefore enumerated may be made either out-
right or in trust for the said party or parties which
trust or trusts mav be frv.*™^ *L - -
C/LOS.'02/060400 i
Page Six
provisions and upon such terms and conditions including

trusts and powers exercisable at the discretion of any
•person or persons as the Trustees may in their absolute
discretion think fit
5. IN addition to all the powers vested in the

Trustees expressly or by implication hereunder or by law
or statute the Trustees shall have all the following
powers and may in their absolute discretion exercise all
or any of the same from time to time in such manner and to
* such extent if at all as may seem to them desirable
(a) To receive additional property or donations

by gift or will or by the provisions of any other trust
or trusts or otherwise from any person or persons as
additions to this Trust and as part of the Trust Fund and
to hold the same upon the Trusts herein set forth and to
administer such additions under the provisions hereof
<b) With respect to any property constituting

the whole or part of the Trust Fund to exercise all powers
which individual beneficial owners might exercise without
being restricted in any way by the office of trustee includ-
ing (without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing)
the following powers
(i) To promote and incorporate companies to

carry on any business whatsoever and power to
liquidate the same and distribute their, assets
in specie or otherwise .
(ii) To vote upon or in respect of any shares

sscurities bonds notes or other evidence or
interest /
CyU05/02y03040C 10
jmmxssims^^mmmm^msmam
Page Seven
i' .
interest .in .or obligations of any corporation
trust association or concern whether or not
affecting the security or the apparent security
of any part of the Trust Fund or the purchase
or sale or lease of the assets of any such
corporation trust association or concern and
(iii) To give proxies or powers of attorney

' with or without power of substitution for voting
« «
or acting 011 behalf of the Trustees as the owners

of any such property and
(iv) To participate in and consent to any
corporate reorganisation consolidation merger •
liquidation dissolution sale or lease or in and
to any other change in any corporation or in its
financial structure affecting any securities or
other property held hereunder and
i
(v) To become a party to any voting trust or
deposit any securities or property held here-
under with any protective reorganisation or
similar committee or in any voting trust or with
any depositary designated thereby and
(vi) To exerciss or concur in exercising the
voting and other rights attaching to any securities
.for the time being forming part of the Trust Fund
so as. to become a Director or other officer or
employee of any company and to be entitled to
vote for and to be paid and to retain for the
Trustees' use and benefit reasonable remuneration
C y U 0 5 / 0 2/0 30400
Page Eight
(vii) To hold or deposit any securities or

other property .in bearer form or in the name of
the Trustees or in the name of any one of them
being a Trust Corporation or in the name of some
other persons or partnership or in the name of a
duly appointed nominee without disclosing the
' >
fiduciary relationship and
(viii) To omit to register bonds or securities

and
I
<ix) To .keep the whole or any part of the

documents relating to and the money investments
and property comprised in the said Trust Fund
within or without the said Cayman Islands
(c) To invest re-invest and manage the Trust
Fund either separately or together with other funds to
acquire and retain the shares or securities of investment
companies or investment trusts whether of the open or
closed type and without notice to anyone to participate
in any common trust fund maintained by any corporate
trustee at any. time serving hereunder
(d) To engage the services of an investment
adviser or advisers at the expense of the Trust Fund and
without liability to follow the recommendations of such
adviser or advisers even though such recommendations may
be highly speculative or not of a type which would ordinarily
be legal or suitable trust investments
(e) To borrow or lend money on such terms

and from or to such persons including the Beneficiaries
as H p Trn^ + onc v Hn+avmiiiB +.0 lhp> rnasnnahlp anr? nrnnfir-
C/LO5/02/0S0400 12
Page Mine
and -without limiting the generality of the foregoing to

margin or hypofchscate'all or any -portions of the Trust
' Fund
(f) To make execute and deliver deeds conveyances

assignments'transfers options leases mortgages instruments
of pledge instruments creating liens contracts and other
instruments sealed or unsealed to raze or erect any build-
ing or other structures and to make any lcind of improve-
ments which the Trustees deem proper
(g) Without prejudice to the jurisdiction of

the Court and according to the respective rights and
interests <?f the persons interested to treat as income or
capital or to apportion between income and capital any
dividends stock dividends rights interest rent issues and
profits derived from any property at any time comprised
in the Trust Fund and generally to determine what part of
the receipts of the Trust is income and what is capital
and whether or not such property is wasting or unproductive
or was purchased at a premium or discount and notwith-
standing the time whan such dividends stock dividends
rights interest rents issues or profits were earned accrued
declared or paid to make such reserves out of income or
capital as the Trustees deem proper for expenses taxes and
other liabilities of the Trust to pay from income or froro
capital or to apportion between income and capital any
expenses of making or changing investments and'-of selling
exchanging or leasing including brokers' commissions and
charges and generally to determine what part of the
expenses of the Trust shall be charged to capital and
C / L 0 S / 0 2/Ca0 4 0 0
SSiPiilîM
Page Ten
and separate parts or shares the allocation of income

gains profits losses and distributions
<h) To carry on participate or invest in any

» t
corporation partnership joint venture or bo-operative and

to enter into such leases contracts or other undertakings
relating to the Trust Fund or any part of 'it as the Trustees
shall in their uncontrolled discretion deem advantageous
notwithstanding that such leases contracts or undertakings
* 'extend or may extend beyond the termination of this Trust
(i) To institute prosecute and defend any suits
or actions or other proceedings affecting the Trustees or
the Trust Fund or any part thereof to compromise any matters
%
of difference or compound any debts owing to them as

Trustees or any other claims and to adjust any disputes
in relation to debts or clairos against them as Trustees
upon evidence that to the Trustees shall seem, sufficient
and in whole or in part at public auction or private sale
or otherwise and upon such terms and for such terms as the
Trustees, deem advisable to make partition with the co-owners
or joint owners besides the Trust having any interest in
any properties in which the Trustees are interested and to
make such partition either by sale or by set-off or by
agreement or otherwise (including where deemed desirable
provision for equality ol exchange)
(j) To take' the opinion or advice of counsel
concerning any difference arising under this Settlement
or any matter in any way relating to the Trust Fund or to
the Trustees' duties in connection with the Trust Fund and
c/''_03/02/0i30400 1+
Page Eleven
(i) To employ and pay at the expense of the

Trust Fund any.aga'rft -in any part of the world whether
an attorney solicitor banker accountant stockbroker or
other agent and whether or not being one of the Trustees
hereunder to transact any business or do any act required
to be transacted or done in the execution of the trusts
hereof including the receipt or payment of money and the
execution of documents and no firm association or corporat-
ion any of whose securities are included within the Trust
Fund and no purchaser or other person dealing with any
agent purporting to act, under delegation of authority
from the Trustees shall be required to ascertain or
enquire whether a case exists in which such delegation is
permitted or whether such delegated authority is still
subsisting BKJ'/IDSD however that the Trustees shall not
be responsible for the default negligence or fraud of any
agent so employed or for any loss 'occasioned thereby
although the employment of such agent was not strictly
necessary or expedient
(1) Upon and for the purpose of any distribution,

or appropriation of the Trust Fund or any part thereof in
their unfettered discretion to place such value on any aad
all assets from time to time forming part of the Trust
Fund as to them in their absolute and uncontrolled discret-
ion shall seem just and proper and any such valuation
made in good faith shall b'e absolutely final and binding
and conclusive on all beneficiaries hereunder and further
upon any such discretion or appropriation to determine to
whom specified assets shall be given and to distribute the
same subject to the payment of such amounts as mav be
C/LOS/G 2/030400
Page Twelve
1
necessary to adjust the shares of the various B6neficiaries
. -and further that .any distributions of the Trust Fund may
be either made directly to any Beneficiary or applied
for his benefit by the Trustees or during his minority
made to his duly appointed guardian or to any person with
whom he lives or resides for the use of the said Beneficiary
^ without responsibility for its expenditure
6, WITHOUT prejudice to the generality of Clause

)
« 1 5 hereof
• ' if the Trust Fuiids shall include any shares or
other interests in a company the ownership of which gives
to them the right in any circumstances to control the
. affairs of the Company or of any of its subsidiaries the
Trustees shall be under no liability or duty to appoint
any representative to the Board of the said Company or
of any of its subsidiaries and further shall have no
responsibility to enquire into oversee or take part in
the management or affairs or business of the Company or
) any of its subsidiaries
7. IN addition to reimbursement of their proper

expenses the Trustees shall be entitled to remuneration
(free of any probate succession estate or other death
duties wheresoever payable and as a first charge on the
Trust Fund) for their services as Trustees in accordance
with their published scale of fees in force from time
to time PROVIDED however that the Trustees may 'transact
v
on behalf of or with the Trust or any Beneficiary here-
under any business which by their constitution they are
authorised /
C/L03/02/030400 13
r Paga Thirteen
V
t , authorised to undertake, upon the same terms as would for
I T
• the time being be made'with an ordinary customer and
without accounting for any profit thereby made and in
particular and without prejudice to the generality of the
J foregoing the Trustees may retain on current account or
deposit account or advance at interest all "moneys necessary
or convenient to be retained or advanced in connection with
j the Trust and may retain for themselves any commission or
i remuneration paid or allowed by stockbrokers insurance
J ' 4 .companies or other agents without being..liable to account
for any profit thereby PROVIDED further that the Trustees
may transact business on behalf of the Trust or any
beneficiary hereunder with any corporation or partnership
in which tha Trustees are office holders or shareholders
or partners or are otherwise financially interested or with
any person or firm holding shares of being otherwise
^S-s financially interested in the Trustees without being
liable to account for any profit accruing to the Trustees
a3 such office holders shareholders or partners as a result
of such business and the Trustees may hold office in any
corporation shares or securities Which comprise or form
part of the Trust Fund and shall not be liabie to account
to the Trust for emoluments received by them as such
office holders
8* (a) THS Trustees hereof (whether o r i g i n a l or
s u b s t i t u t e d ) may a t any time or times be removed from their
o f f i c e of Trustee by a Deed executed by the S e t t l o r (herein-
a f t e r c a l l e d "tha Appointor").and d e l i v e r e d to the-Trustees
and the Appointor may by deed executed and delivered as •

C/L03^02/060400 17
fa
Page Fourteen
not resident in the Cayman Islands to be Trustees either

jointly with any other,then continuing Trustees or solely
if after removal'there shall not bo any continuing
Trustees and thereupon the Trust Fund shall be by such
assurance as may be necessary or expedient vested jointly
in the persons who shall thereupon become the Trustees of
the Trusts hereby created PROVIDED howev.er that an outgoing
trustee who is liable as a trustee hereof or may on the
death of any person become liable as a former trustee •
• * thereof for any income probate estate or other duties fees
or taxes shall not be bound to transfer the Trust Fund as
aforesaid unless reasonable security is provided for
i
indemnifying such outgoing trustee against such liability

PROVIDED ALSO that no removal of trustees by the Appointor
shall be effective unless after such removal (either with
* Vs •
or without a raw appointment) there shall remain at least

one trustee being a trust corporation or two trustees
being individuals
(b) Without prejudice to the powers contained
in sub-clause (a) of the Clause if a Trustee hereof
whether original or substituted shall die or being a
corporation be dissolved or shall desire to be discharged
from all or any of the trusts or powers hereof or shall
i*efuse or become unfit to act therein or become incapable
of acting therein then the following persons namely:
(i) The Settlor or if she shall be dead
'or unable or unwilling to act
(ii) The surviving or continuing Trustees
hereof for the time being or if there be
C/L05/0 2/030400 13
Page Fifteen
no surviving or continuing Trustees

V » l•
(iii) The personal representatives of the
i last surviving Trustee if such last
i _ Trustee was an individual but if such
last Trustee was a corporation then
^ such last Trustee upon retirement may
^ms by deed appoint one or more other persons
:
.-•••. . •".»" or corporation (whether or not being or
i
.including the persons exercising the
» f
power) to be a Trustee-or Trustees in
the place of the Trustee so deceased
dissolved desiring to be discharged
refusing or being unfit or being
incapable as aforesaid
(c) Tha powers in Bub-clause (a) of this Clause
pm. contained may at any time be irrevocably released by a
^ deed executed by the Appointor and delivered to the
Trustees and the Appointor may in like manner revocably
or irrevocably grant the said powers to any person or
persons to take effect immediately or after the death of
the Appointor as the case may be
(d) The Trustees hereof or any of them (whether
original or substituted) may if they so desire resign as
Trustees hereunder after 30 days written notice of their
intention so to do sent by registered prepaid post to
the Appointor or such person as the Appointor may from
time to time appoint in writing such resignation shall
become effective upon the day specified in such notice of
resignation
C/LO5/02/0SQ400
Page Sixteen
(e) In the event of the resignation of the

• Trustees hereof .or; in case there shall be no trustee
hereunder Guinness Mahon Bahamas Trust Company Limited or
its successors shall become substituted Trustees hereunder
i i
(f) Upon the resignation or removal of the

Trustees as hereinbefore provided the Trustees shall be
entitled to receive reimbursement out of the Trust Fund for
all expenses incurred by them in connection with the settle-
\
ment of the account of the Trustees
« •
(g) On every change in the trusteeship a

memorandum shall be endorsed on or permanently affixed
- to this Settlement stating the names of the Trustees for
the time being and shall be signed by the persons so named
and authenticated by a notary or notaries public and any
person dealing with the Trust shall be entitled to rely
upon any such memorandum (or the latest of such memoranda
^ if more than one) as sufficient evidence that the persons
named therein are the fully constituted Trustees for the
time being of this Settlement
(h) Any substituted Trustees of this Settlement
shall have all the powers conferred upon the Trustees by
law and these presents and any and all banks brokers
nominees or other depositories custodians of the Trust
Fund shall be atthorised to accept instructions from the
said substituted Trustees as to the dispositions- thereof
r^ 9.
THE Trustees shall provide for the safekeeping of
all documents of title and securities the subject of
this /
C / L 0 5 / 0 2 / 0 30 400 20
Page Seventeen
this Settlement and may: at the expense of the Trust Fund

. (which expense may include any charges for the safe
custody of securities and the collection and remittance
of income) deposit the same in the custody of any bank
banking company corporate trustee or stockbroker in any
part of the world that undertakes the safe custody of
securities as part of its business but so that the Trustees
shall not be in any wise responsible for the misapplication
of the same or any of them by such banking company corporate
trustee or stockbroker or for any loss ..which may be occasioned
thereby
10. IN the event of any income probate estate or other

duties fees or taxes becoming payable in the Cayman Islands
or elsewhere in respect of the Trust Fund or any part
thereof on the death of the Settlor or of any Beneficiary
or otherwise the Trustees may at their discretion pay all
or any part of such duties fees and taxes out of the Trust
Fund without recourse against any Beneficiary or refuse
to paiy the same or any part thereof unless indemnified
and to determine the time and manner of such payment if
any
11, NO bond shall be required of the Trustees herein

named (whether original or substituted) or if a bond should
be required by law to the extent that a waiver by the
Settlor is effective no surety shall be required on such
a bond
2 1
C / L G S / O 2 / 0 S 0 4 00
Page Eighteen
t
12. THIS Trust shall be irrevocable and the Settlor

v expressly waives, all right and power whether alone or in
c o n j u n c t i o n w i t h any o t h e r p e r s o n t o a l t e r amend o r revoke
this Settlement i n whole o r i n p a r t o r a s t o any o f its
terms
13. THE Trustees shall not be personally liable on

•v. contract made by them in the administration of the Trust
and persons entering into contracts with the Trustees
' shall look solely to the Trust Fund
*• ••
14. WITHOOT prejudice to the right under the general

law of the Trustees to refuse disclosure of any document
• it is hereby declared that the Trustees shall not be
bound to disclose to any person any of the following
documents that is to say:
(1) Any document disclosing any deliberations

of the Trustees (or any of the Trustees) as to the manner
in which the Trustees should exercise any power or any
discretion conferred upon the Trustees by this Settlement
or disclosing the reasons for any particular exercise of
any such power or any such discretion or the material
upon which such reasons shall or mît have been based
(2) Any other document relating to the exercise

or proposed exercise of any power or any discretion conferred
on the Trustees by this Settlement (not being legal advice
_ obtained by the Trustees at the cost of the trust estate)
AND /
C/LCS/02/030400 22
Page Nineteen
AND IT IS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED that the TRUSTEES

' MAY PERMIT any Beneficiary' personally to inspect any copy
oI this So It lento n I or any documents ro la Ling to Iho '1'rusL
at the principal office of any corporate Trustee hereof
t t
but .shall not be bound to give any further, information to

' . ' • •
any Beneficiary relating to the affairs of the Trust or to
permit any Beneficiary to make any copies of any documents
relating to the Trust
.15. THIS Settlement is made under the laws of the

Cayman Islands and the rights of all parties and the
construction and effect of each and every provision hereof
shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of and
construed only according to the laws of the Cayman Islands
which shall be tha forum for the administration of this
Trust
PROVIDED however that the Trustees may from time

to time during the Accumulation Period by deed declare that
this Trust and the rights of all parties and the construction
and effect of the provisions hereof shall from the date of
such declaration be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction
of and construed only according to the laws of some other
jurisdiction (other than the Cayman Islands) in which one
or more of the Trustees then serving in office is resident
and that the forum for the administration of this Trust
shall thenceforth be such other jurisdiction PROVIDED
further that the Trustees may not declare that this Trust
and the rights of all parties and the construction and
effect of the provisions hereof shall be subject to the
jurisdiction of and construed according to the laws of a
C/L.05/0 2/ 0604-00
111
». '•'J1
F.^T.Miii-r^tiM.û.riî.m,
Page Twenty
jurisdiction which would cause a material change in the

vrights of the Beneficiaries hereunder or which would not
recognise the validity of this Trust if such non-recognition
would result in the revocation or termination of the Trust
* •
16. ANY person of full age to whom or for whose
benefit any capital or income may be liable to be appointed
transferred paid or applied by or in consequence of an
exercise of any power or discration vested in the Trustees
or in any other person may by deed revocably or irrevocably
disclaim his interest as an object of such power or discretion,
either wholly or with respect to any specified part or share
of such capital or income and then such power or discretion
shall (despite anything contained elsewhere in this Deed)
pro tanto cease to be exercisable'
IN WITNESS whereof the said Elizabeth Love has set her hand
and seal and the Common Seal of Guinness Mahon Cayman
Trust Limited has been hereunto affixed the day and year
first above written
THE FIRST SCHEDULE
One Hundred Pounds Sterling (£100.00)
!
THE SECOND SCHEDULE / .»
C/L05/02/060400 ' 24
Page Twenty-One
THE SECOND . SCHEDULE
1. The Settlor
i
Elizabeth Love of "Clanricarde",
Blackrock Soad, Cork, Ireland and her husband
or widower and issue (of whatever degree) and
her brothers and sisters and their issue (of
whatever degree) and the brothers and sisters
of her husband and their issue (of whatever
degree)
2. Jocal Investments Halted
SIGNED SEALED and

DELIVERED by the
above-named in the
presence of:
S. —•
\S 'v>.v< V —iv
THE COMMON SEAL'OP GUINNESS

MHON CAYMAN^RUST LIMITED '
has been hereunto affixed in
the pre§enfce ybf:
(
(
(
(
(
(
(
(
;:;nii20i) Ka\ r...-).•! 2 I 42T3TO-I mail@jw.Ml.it-
: v. ' f * ' • "'•: i ? V \ \

S O L I C I T O R S V | ^fffl-g
Ms. Noreen Mackey B.L.,

Mr. Michael C. Cush S.C.,
Office of the Inspectors of Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.,
3 l d Floor, Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
REGISTERED POST By Fax and Post 01-283 3929

Dull' \ (i ii r relr re nee Our reference
7 December, 2001. C/L05/NM COH\JM\000025\20036
RE: J. CLAYTON LOVE JNR.
Dear Ms. Mackey & Mr. Cush,
We refer to the draft preliminary conclusions notified by you under cover of letter dated 20
November 2001. At the outset, we are concerned that your preliminary view is somewhat at
odds with the documentation exhibited by you and upon which you state to rely. At the core of
our concern is the fact that, unlike Yale Securities Limited, Mr. Joseph Clayton Love Junior
never held any account with Ansbacher.
1. Under the terms of the Order of 22 September 1999 as subsequently amended by the
Order of 8 December 2000, the Court has appointed you and your colleagues under
Section 8 of The Companies Act 1990 to investigate and report on the affairs of the
company and in particular to define the nature and extent of the Irish business of
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited ("Ansbacher") from 1971 to date. The Order provides
that this relates to the business carried on by Ansbacher whether in the State or
otherwise on behalf of Irish residents; whether the affairs of Ansbacher were
conducted with intent to defraud its creditors or the creditors of any person or
otherwise for a fraudulent or unlawful purpose. It is accepted that the scope of the
Order is sufficiently broad to encompass the nature of the business which was carried
on by Ansbacher in the State, brief particulars of which are described in the Report of
the Trinunal of Inquiry (Dunnes Payments). However, Mr. Love has not was not
involved in such.
2. It is submitted that you are obliged to comply with the rules of natural justice when
you are about to make a determination on an issue which adversely affects our client.
3. The preliminary conclusion that Mr. Love was a client of Ansbacher is not true and
further is not supported by any evidence. The contrary is the position. The only
evidence is to the effect that Mr. Love was not at any stage a client of Ansbacher.
000025/20036/4903'
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Mr. Love was instrumental in ensuring that the Elizabeth Love Trust was established
on 23 April L971. That Trust owned Yale Securities Limited ("Yale"). Yale advanced
monies to Mr. Love from time to time over the years. In paragraph 3 of your
preliminary conclusion these advances are referred to as "borrowings". It is not
understood why the word borrowings is described in this fashion. The sworn evidence
which you have is that Yale made advances to Mr. Love at his request. Mr. Love has
already advised that no monies were received from the Trust, but rather from Yale
Securities Limited. To this extent, you might amend paragraph 3 of your recitals.
Contrary to the assertion that "to date he has not made any repayments ", Mr. Love has
in fact repaid all monies advanced by Yale to him. Mr. Love furnished a statement on
24 March 2000 and subsequently a clarification statement on 24 May 2000.
Subsequently, all of Mr. Love's indebtedness to Yale comprising both principal and
interest was repaid by him in or about August 2000.
In relation to paragraph 2 of your recitals, we would appreciate if you might clarify

that the source of the monies was from U.K. property transactions. In this context, we
refer you to Clause 6.2 of Mr. Love's statement.
The expression that Mr. Love was a "client of Ansbacher" is both ambiguous and, we
suggest, incorrect. A client of a Bank is generally understood to mean a depositor or a
borrower or perhaps a person who otherwise is provided with banking services for
consideration. Mr. Love was not a borrower of Ansbacher. He was a borrower of Yale
Securities Limited. Mr. Love does not and never has held monies with Ansbacher. He
has never borrowed monies from Ansbacher and he has not retained Ansbacher to
provide banking services.
Your investigation has been conducted in an atmosphere of intense media comment

and reporting, the effect of which is that the Ansbacher depositors should be "named
and shamed". Your Report will no doubt have the effect of causing considerable
damage and loss of reputation to those named therein as having been depositors in
Ansbacher or otherwise clients of that bank While you will, pot .have any control or
influence on the manner in which your Report will be publicised, you will appreciate
that it will enter the public domain shortly after its conclusion.
While not directly relevant to your conclusions, we are aware that the Elizabeth Love
Trust has been wound up.
Your preliminary conclusion is also stated to be based on a memorandum prepared for

the Moriarty Tribunal by the late Mr. Hugh Coveney. You will appreciate that our
client knows nothing of this memorandum. He has had no involvement in its
preparation. In this memorandum the late Mr. Coveney, who was a businessman and
lot a lawyer, is reported to have stated that Yale represented the interest of Mr. Love in
the Lynbrette Trust. I would respectfully draw your attention to the following:-
n ' D ') N ; ? V A .N
I I
i. The opening sentence of recital number 4 is prejudicial to our client, insofar as it

suggests that Mr. Love did not disclose the circumstances relating to the development
near Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A.
ii. The late Mr. Coveney died in March 1998. He has not given any evidence to you. The
memorandum is second hand hearsay. There is no evidence available to you from the
late Mr. Coveney. We know nothing of the circumstances nor background to the
furnishing by the late Mr. Coveney of the memorandum to the Moriarty Tribunal. That
memorandum does not constitute evidence to you. It is certainly the case that you may
not rely upon that document in the face of sworn evidence which contradicts it. Mr.
Love has confirmed that Lynbrette was a Trust wherein Yale invested with others in a
property venture in the United States. Businessmen such as the late Mr. Coveney and
indeed his partners in the venture might well have understood that Yale "represented
Mr. Love". However there was no evidence or legal basis for that view and that view is
mistaken.
iii. It is surprising that you would seek to rely upon a document of this nature when the
other parties to Lynbrette are alive and capable of giving you sworn evidence. Have
you examined Mr. Collins, Mr. Boland or Mr. Dineen? Presumably they have not
given you evidence to indicate that Yale "represented the interests of Mr. Love" in the
sense that Mr. Love was the legal or beneficial owner of Yale, and presumably, you
have been unable to obtain any evidence to corroborate the assertion. Why therefore is
reliance placed on a document prepared for the Moriarty Tribunal when Mr. Love has
given sworn evidence to the effect that at all times in the Lynbrette transaction he
represented the interests of Yale,. That is a perfectly understandable and, we would
suggest, normal position when one is dealing with a family Trust.
7. We enclose:-
i. Affidavit of Joseph Clayton Love Junior.
We should be obliged if you would please confirm that you will liter your preiiminary
conclusion which, as stated, is untrue and has not been substantiated by evidence. Insofar as
Mr. Love is concerned, he would not have a difficulty in a conclusion that:-
"Yale Securities Limited was a client of Ansbacher. The Elizabeth Love Trust was the legal
and beneficial owner of Yale Securities Limited, which company made advances to Mr. J.
Clayton Love Jnr. over a number of years. These advances have been repaid in full with
interest by Mr. Love. Yale Securities Limited was a client of Ansbacher. "
For eas ; of reference, we enclose marked up version of your draft and look forward to hearing
further from you. If it would be of assistance, we would be prepared to meet with you to
clarify any detail.
J W O'D 0 N 0 V A N
Should you, notwithstanding the foregoing, decide not to alter your preliminary view to reflect
the foregoing, we confirm that we require to cross examine any witness on whose evidence
you may rely, examine any document available to you and make oral submissions on these
issues before you complete your report.
IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED, AND
IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990, SECTION 8.
AFFIDAVIT OF JOSEPH CLAYTON LOVE
I, JOSEPH CLAYTON LOVE, of Tanglewood, Currabinny, in the County of Cork,

Company Director, aged 18 years and upwards make Oath and say as follows:
1. I make this Affidavit from facts within my own knowledge save where otherwise
appears, and where so appearing I depose to the same believing the same to be true.
2. I beg to refer to the Preliminary Conclusion of the Inspectors notified to me by

lettei of 20 November 2001. That conclusion states:
"Mr. Love was a client of Ansbacher".
3. This conclusion is not true. Furthermore, it suggests that I held monies in

Ansbacher, or otherwise benefited from a scheme to unlawfully evade the payment of
taxes to the State, and thereby commit a criminal offence.
4.1 have deposed to the fact that I borrowed monies from Yale Secuities Limited, an
asset of the Elizabeth Love Trust. I say and believe that this does not constitute me to
be a client of Ansbacher. Contrary to what is asserted in the Preliminary Conclusion, I
have repaid all monies advanced to me by Yale together with interest. That repayment
was made in August 2000 from monies legally and beneficially owned by me and
held in the State.
5.1 have never received a distribution from the Elizabeth Love Trust.
6. In so far as the Inspectors appear to rely on a memorandum prepared by the late

Hugh Coveney which deals with the Lynbrette Trust, I say that Yale Securities
Limited was one of the investors in that venture, as set out previously at paragraph 6.8
of my statement of 6 March 2000.1 say that Yale Securities Limited did not represent
my interests, rather the converse.
7. I further say that I was never the legal or beneficial owner of Yale Securities
Limited.
000025/20036/4904AF~1.DOC
SWORN by the Deponent this f *
day of December 2001 at
Carrigaline, County Cork, before
me a Practising Solicitor, and I
know the Deponent.
:TISING SOLICITOR
000025/20036/4904AF-1 DOC
SUBMISSIONS ON BEHALF OF MR. CLAYTON LOVE
MADE BY MR. 0'HANLON, SOLICITOR
ON WEDNESDAY, 20TH MARCH 2002
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MS. N. MACKEY BL
MR. M. CUSH SC
Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. M. CUMMINS
Submissions on behalf of
Mr. Clayton Love: MR. C. 0'HANLON SOLICITOR
J.W. 0'DONOVAN & CO
SOLICITORS
1 SUBMISSIONS BY MR. CORMAC O'HANLON, SOLICITOR ON
2 BEHALF OF MR. CLAYTON LOVE, COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON
3 WEDNESDAY, 20TH MARCH 2002:
5 MS. MACKEY: Good morning,
6 Mr. 0'Hanlon.
7 I am Noreen Mackey and this is Mr. Cush.
8 MR. O'HANLON: Good morning to you.
9 I recall from the last
10 time. Mr. Cush was not
11 here on the last occasion.
12 MS. MACKEY: We have come along this
13 morning really to hear
14 your submissions or to hear your speaking about your
15 written submissions. What we propose to do is
16 listen to you. If you wish, you can wait until the
17 very end and then we can ask you questions that
18 might arise or we can engage with you as we go
19 along.
20 MR. O'HANLON: You deal with it as you
21 see fit.
22 MS. MACKEY: Whichever suits you.
23 MR. O'HANLON: I have prepared a
24 very brief note which is
25 very largely repetitious. In a sense I am not too
26 sure that there is an awful lot to be said for going
27 through this line by line. The first item --
28 really I think it is important to begin at the
29 beginning so to speak -- as to what the High Court
3
1 order appointing you requires you to do: It seems
2 to me that the raison d'etre of this inquiry was
3 essentially that the company was carrying on a
4 banking business in the State without a banking
5 licence. This was obviously a matter of great
6 surprise and shock arising out of the McCracken
7 report and the extent indeed of the business carried
8 on by Ansbacher in the State clearly on behalf of
9 Irish residents. That so to speak is the
10 background. That is the canvass upon which
11 obviously your enquiries are directed. That is
12 what the order focuses the attention on, namely the
13 extent of the business carried on by Ansbacher in
14 this State for Irish residents or indeed elsewhere
15 for Irish residents.
16
17 Turning to the actual facts, the facts seem to me to
18 be largely accepted by you on the basis of the
19 preliminary conclusions which you have drawn.
20 It is a matter of interpretation in one or two
21 specific instances. But just to go back on what
22 those were: Mr. Love was not the settlor of the
23 Elizabeth Love Trust but there is no doubt but that
24 he was the instrumental party in having the
25 Elizabeth Love Trust established. The purpose of
26 it was not tax evasion or indeed tax avoidance.
27 There may have been an element of tax avoidance.
28 But primarily because of his apprehension of
29 financial difficulties he was advised to do it.
4
1 He thought it a good idea. He sought professional
2 advice and he did it. We have eventually, as you
3 know after the last occasion, got the trust
4 document. The trust document I suspect is as one
5 would expect a document of this nature to be.
6 It is not the form of document which I rather
7 suspect you may have seen here dealing with other
8 parties. It is a properly constituted trust
9 document.
10
11 The funding of the trust was from external assets.
12 In other words, there was no question of assets
13 generated within the Irish State being chanelled to
14 initially Jersey but later to Cayman.
15 1 Q. MR. CUSH: This is all the Elizabeth
16 Love Trust?
17 A. MR. O'HANLON: All of the Elizabeth Love
18 Trust, yes.
19 Mr. Love himself and essentially his family -- the
20 potential beneficiaries are the wider family,
21 Mrs. Love's spouse, children, brothers, sisters, the
22 normal potential family beneficiaries. In the
23 event there has been one distribution from that
24 trust. In other words, it was largely wound up in
25 August 2000.
26 2 Q. MS. MACKEY: That is the distribution?
27 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes, that is the
28 distribution.
29 Yale was the creature, the trading creature of the
5
1 trust. It was the wealth generator of the trust,
2 so it was the engine by which wealth was to be
3 created. You may recall Mr. Love's evidence in
4 relation to the advances made to him. He was
5 advised firstly that there was no circumstance in
6 which he could get a distribution from the trust
7 because it would be subject to tax. If he had
8 borrowed money from the trust it had to be subject
9 to interest. He received advances, small advances
10 I think initially. And indeed from recollection,
11 over the first 10 or 15 years the advances were
12 small but later more substantial. He has given
13 evidence in relation to that. He has given
14 evidence in relation to the methodology by which it
15 was done, all essentially via Mr. Traynor. You
16 asked for written documents in relation to that.
17 Loan agreements, what one might call standard
18 banking documentation. It isn't there; there are
19 no such documents. Is that surprising? I would
20 say not terribly surprising. It is a family trust.
21 If one were advising the trustees, one might say
22 'You shouldn't be doing it this way.' But we are
23 now looking back at what was done maybe five, ten,
24 twenty years ago, and they didn't do it that way.
25 But he was told 'If you want an advance from the
26 trust through Yale, it will be done this way' and
27 the money was made available to him. He had to
28 repay the money and in the event has repaid all of
29 that money plus interest. The amount of that was
6
1 very substantial. I think you have seen the
2 accounts. These accounts incidentally were not
3 furnished to Mr. Love, they were furnished to his
4 daughter who was the ultimate beneficiary. But
5 they give you an idea of the magnitude of what you
6 are looking at.
7 3 Q. MR. CUSH: Did Mr. Love not seek
8 these accounts?
9 A. MR. O'HANLON: He sought the accounts.
10 4 Q. MR. CUSH: They weren't provided?
11 A. MR. O'HANLON: They were not provided to
12 him. From recollection,
13 the only account he said he ever saw through the
14 years of the advances was a memorandum account or a
15 statement.
16 5 Q. MR. CUSH: Statement of affairs from
17 Mr. Traynor?
18 A. MR. O'HANLON: Exactly. Specifically in
19 fact I was looking for
20 those because I thought that would be of
21 considerable value to us if we had those, but we
22 don't have them and he doesn't have them. He said
23 all that was ever done was that he was shown a copy
24 of a statement or a memorandum account.
25 6 Q. MS. MACKEY: On what basis did they
26 provide them to his
27 daughter and not to himself?
28 A. MR. O'HANLON: Because she became the
29 ultimate beneficiary.
1 7 Q. MS. MACKEY: In the second schedule
2 here we just have a group or class of potential
3 beneficiaries. She is not particularly named in
4 any special way?
5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: But the structure of the
6 trust is essentially
7 discretionary within a class. The trustees made a
8 distribution within the class and that is the end of
9 it.
10 8 Q. MS. MACKEY: They made them to her you
11 mean?
12 A. MR. 0'HANLON: To her. She was the
13 beneficiary. So the
14 trust has in fact been wound up. The distribution
15 has been made and the distribution was August 2000.
16 9 Q. MR. CUSH: The accounts were provided
17 to her then?
18 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Accounts were then
19 provided to her because
20 there was a tax calculation in relation to that
21 distribution. And that is a matter for her.
22 10 Q. MR. CUSH: But there is no reason why
23 accounts wouldn't be
24 provided before?
25 A. MR. 0'HANLON: To?
26 11 Q. MR. CUSH: To anyone in the class of
27 beneficiaries?
28 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Wrong, no.
29 12 Q. MS. MACKEY: Particularly to the person
8
1 who is able to borrow
2 money?
3 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, I think that is very
4 important. I can set up
5 a trust today and I can name everybody in this room
6 as a potential beneficiary, but you are entitled to
7 absolutely nothing. You are a potential
8 beneficiary until such time as the trustees say
9 'Right, here is the distribution to you.' You then
10 have a right from that moment on, but before that
11 you are only a potential beneficiary.
12 13 Q. MS. MACKEY: But what about the person
13 who in fact was the mover,
14 the motivating person, Mr. Love, who was able to
15 obtain loans. Was he not entitled to some
16 documentation? How did he become entitled to get a
17 loan?
18 A. MR. O'HANLON: Can we move one step back
19 first of all. When you
20 say the prime mover - he is not the settlor,
21 Mrs. Love was the settlor of this trust. That
22 said, of course he was instrumental in setting it
23 up.
24 14 Q. MS. MACKEY: What do you mean by that?
25 A. MR. O'HANLON: It was he who had it
26 established. It was he
27 who sought advice, got advice. The purpose of it
28 was the protection of his family.
29 15 Q. MS. MACKEY: They were his funds?
9
1 A. MR. 0'HANLON: No, they were not.
2 No, they were not his funds. No monies of his have
3 ever ended up in this trust.
4 16 Q. MS. MACKEY: Whose funds were settled
5 on it?
6 A. MR. 0'HANLON: They were settled on
7 various companies.
8 You may remember UK Investments. Those companies
9 were actually held by companies which in turn were
10 held by Yale which in turn were held by the trust.
11 17 Q. MS. MACKEY: Who was the ultimate owner
12 of those funds, the
13 ultimate beneficial owner of the funds that I am
14 talking about?
15 A. MR. 0'HANLON: The very first funds?
16 18 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes?
17 A. MR. 0'HANLON: You may remember in the
18 statement -- we can go
19 back through it if you wish -- that with the very
20 first funds there was a trust in the Channel Islands
21 which was his trust, the Clayton Love Channel Island
22 Trust. Those funds came across to Cayman.
23 Mrs. Love I think had a trust -- I may be mistaken
24 in that -- in the Channel Islands as well. There
25 was an initial figure of something like £50,000 or
26 £70,000 which was generated from profits in the UK
27 on foot of some property transaction. Those were
28 simply in the Channel Islands and those monies were
29 moved from the Channel Islands to the Cayman
10
1 Islands.
2 19 Q. MS. MACKEY: Were they Mr. Love's or
3 Mrs. Love's originally
4 looking at the thing realistically?
5 A. MR. O'HANLON: What does "realistically "
6 mean?
7 20 Q. MS. MACKEY: Who really owned the
8 funds?
9 A. MR. O'HANLON: Does that mean legally
10 because if it is legally
11 the answer may not be...(INTERJECTION)
12 21 Q. MS. MACKEY: Legally the company?
13 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes.
14 22 Q. MS. MACKEY: But who was the ultimate
15 beneficiary of the company
16 if you like?
17 A. MR. O'HANLON: May I turn to paragraph
18 5.4 of his original
19 statement, Exhibit I. I will read it to you.
20 It says:
21 "In the events I identified some

interesting opportunities in London in
22 association with GMPC [Guinness Mahon
Property Company] and we began
23 assembling a site for a major office
development in the Whitechapel area of
24 London. A large number of interests
had to be acquired and many of these
25 were surplus to our needs. It was
nevertheless important for us to buy in
26 these interests so as to develop the
site. This acquisition took a number
27 of years to achieve. Interests which
were surplus to requirements were
28 disposed of and this resulted in the
generation of profits of circa
29 £75,000/£80,000 to which I will refer
later."
11
2 That was essentially the seed capital.
3 23 Q. MS. MACKEY: I think that answers the
4 question I was trying to
5 get at. We have moved away from the question I
6 asked you first, which started off this train of
7 thought. Mr. Love was, I used the phrase, the prime
8 mover. But he was the motivating force
9 originally?
10 A. MR. O'HANLON: I think prime mover is
11 actually fine.
12 He was the wealth generator.
13 24 Q. MS. MACKEY: The wealth generator.
14 That is a good phrase.
15 He was the wealth generator and in those
16 circumstances allied to the fact that the trustees
17 saw fit to make loans to him, was he not entitled to
18 get statements?
19 A. MR. O'HANLON: Statement of indebtedness,
20 yes.
21 25 Q. MS. MACKEY: But statements of affairs,
22 statements of accounts
23 such as these?
24 A. MR. O'HANLON: No. That really is a
25 matter for the trustees
26 and I cannot answer it. He didn't. He was shown
27 a statement. He didn't question it.
28 26 Q. MR. CUSH: I don't think he knew who
29 the trustees were, is that
12
1 right?
2 A. MR. 0'HANLON: In fact when he was here
3 he said he didn't. He gave evidence as to whether
4 he knew and you may remember his answers. In the
5 event he was wrong in a number of respects. But
6 anyway the trust document was later obtained.
7 And that shows the position because there was a
8 question, for example, from Judge Costello who was
9 wondering whether there was a question of
10 accountants being the settlors effectively, which
11 again one has read about as being an unusual
12 mechanism which was adopted apparently in a number
13 of similar transactions. I am simply adverting to
14 that to show that that was not the methodology used
15 here. And the methodology used here was one which
16 one would normally expect in the establishment of a
17 trust.
18 27 Q. MR. CUSH: On the face of it, it
19 would appear that it is a
20 perfectly properly constituted trust?
21 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Correct.
22 28 Q. MR. CUSH: Where some of the concern
23 arises is as to its
24 operation and particularly to the borrowing?
25 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Indeed and whether there
26 were borrowings at all.
27 29 Q. MR. CUSH: And whether they were real
28 borrowings at all?
29 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Exactly. Here is the
13
1 acid test. They have repaid, they have been repaid
2 with interest. We are not talking about £20,000 or
3 £40,000 or £50,000 or £100,000. This is on top of
4 his own sworn evidence. You see, I am reluctant to
5 advert to his own evidence in relation to his
6 friendship with Des Traynor. But you are talking
7 about people there who go way back when, very close
8 friends. Des Traynor was his business adviser.
9 You may recall in his statement the family
10 background was a particularly unhappy, fractious
11 background. Well known but particularly fractious
12 at a young age in life contrary to popular belief
13 with the golden spoon in the mouth and so on.
14 It wasn't like that; he actually left the business
15 but quite quickly was a success. But thereafter
16 the insecurity of the self-employed, and the
17 insecurity is real. He was particularly conscious
18 of that. He gave that as the raison d'etre for
19 this. It may have been clever. From a tax
20 avoidance point of view very clever but he was
21 advised that it was perfectly legitimate provided it
22 was not effectively funded from assets within the
23 State. And furthermore, no distributions were made
24 to him because if they were he would simply have to
25 pay tax on the distributed income as it came into
26 the State. That is the way it was set up. It may
27 not have been in its operation. It may not have
28 been perfect. It may not have followed every line,
29 dotted every "i" or crossed every "t" but this is
14
1 the way it was done. We are now many years later
2 looking back at a situation and looking at it I
3 suppose in association with other people whose
4 affairs are certainly not known to me but would be
5 known to you. I suspect it is quite dissimilar
6 frankly to many of those. There may be
7 similarities with others, I don't know. It may
8 have been, I rather suspect, that you have common
9 advisers. But you may recall his own evidence in
10 relation to what he knew or didn't know of
11 Des Traynor, and they were very, very close friends.
12 Hugh Coveney was a particularly good friend of his.
13 He said he was not aware that Des was an adviser to
14 Hugh Coveney. That tells you a little something
15 of the relationship between the two. And if Des
16 Traynor 'Here is a statement. This is what is
17 there. This is what you owe' that was enough for
18 him.
19 30 Q. MR. CUSH: Is that what the
20 statement of affairs
21 showed? We have evidence from Mr. Love saying that
22 he got statements of affairs maybe once a year on a
23 blank sheet of paper. One got the impression from
24 reading the transcript that it was a pretty informal
25 presentation?
26 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I took it from that to be
27 an extremely informal
28 presentation. I wasn't entirely clear as to
29 whether, for example, it meant what you and I might
15
1 understand to be a statement of affairs, as in
2 assets, liabilities or whatever. It may have been a
3 bank account. It may have shown the extent of the
4 trust and what its obligations were and fees were or
5 something like that. Presumably these trustees and
6 these people are paid every year. Something of
7 that nature but I am not entirely clear about it.
8 31 Q. MR. CUSH: Is there evidence to
9 demonstrate that the
10 statement of affairs such as it was showed the
11 borrowing by Mr. Love?
12 A. MR. O'HANLON: I cannot say that that is
13 the position because he
14 didn't say it was. He didn't say it was in the
15 transcript.
16 32 Q. MR. CUSH: I don't think he did?
17 A. MR. O'HANLON: That is my point and
18 therefore I cannot say
19 that he did. His recollection of what was in those
20 documents was extremely hazy.
21 33 Q. MR. CUSH: He was very straight about
22 it?
23 A. MR. O'HANLON: Extremely hazy so I cannot
24 say the answer to that is
25 yes.
26 34 Q. MS. MACKEY: To get a few dates
27 straight in my own head,
28 Mr. O'Hanlon. The trust was wound up on that final
29 distribution. That distribution that you mentioned
16
1 to the daughter was made on what date?
2 A. MR. 0'HANLON: August 2000.
3 35 Q. MS. MACKEY: The repayment of the loan
4 was made when?
5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: At or about that time.
6 36 Q. MR. CUSH: Sometime post September
7 1999, before August 2000?
8 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Exactly. It was after he
9 was here and prior to the
10 winding up.
11 37 Q. MS. MACKEY: But you don't have the
12 exact date?
13 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I don't have the exact
14 date but I can provide the
15 exact date. It would be very easy to provide the
16 exact date on which the monies were paid. But I
17 know it is between those two dates.
18 38 Q. MR. CUSH: The statements of affairs
19 that he got from
20 Mr. Traynor, he didn't keep those?
21 A. MR. 0'HANLON: No, he didn't because of
22 course that would have
23 been extremely useful. But again, one is going
24 back how many years? But again he just doesn't have
25 them. In fact he didn't have anything frankly
26 other than the most recent accounts. He doesn't
27 keep records of that nature.
28 39 Q. MR. CUSH: Then the accounts,
29 Exhibit II.
17
1 I understand now that they were provided to Mr.
2 Love's daughter?
4 40 Q. MR. CUSH: What do you know about the
5 intervening years
6 preparation of accounts. Were they even prepared?
7 A. MR. O'HANLON: We don't know. We asked
8 for accounts in fact.
9 41 Q. MR. CUSH: And you got them this
10 year. There is obviously
11 a previous year?
12 A. MR. O'HANLON: Of course there is,
13 exactly.
14 42 Q. MR. CUSH: That might suggest that
15 previous years have been
16 prepared. It might?
17 A. MR. O'HANLON: For example, if it is a
18 limited liability company,
19 one would assume that the company had to be audited
20 every year.
21 43 Q. MR. CUSH: It should have been.
22 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't know what the
23 obligation in the Cayman
24 is in relation to these matters but one would assume
25 that it was. Unfortunately, this is the only thing
26 that has not been made available to us. Mr. Love
27 had asked for this, but frankly any enquiry of that
28 nature simply went into the sand.
29 44 Q. MS. MACKEY: Did his daughter get this
18
1 as a matter of course once
2 the: distribution was made or did she ask for it?
3 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, it was actually
4 provided, Exhibit II.
5 45 Q. MS. MACKEY: It was sent to her?
6 A. MR. O'HANLON: It was sent to her.
7 46 Q. MS . MACKEY: It is not signed,
8 Exhibit II?
9 A. MR. O'HANLON: I noticed that.
10 You will notice it is
11 unaudited.
12 47 Q. MR. CUSH: The difficulty really is
13 that there are a number of
14 indications that the assets of the trust were being
15 treated by Mr. Love as a loan if they are not
16 borrowings ?
17 A. MR. O'HANLON: If they are not
18 borrowings. You see, it
19 is a huge jump to say that they are not. I am sure
20 if I was sitting where you are sitting, that would
21 be my immediate suspicion.
22 48 Q. MR. CUSH: On the one side we have
23 Mr. Love's sworn
24 testimony. We have these accounts which show them
25 as a loan?
26 A. MR. O'HANLON: You have the repayments.
27 49 Q. MR. CUSH: And we have repayment.
28 So they are the three
29 indications that they were borrowings?
19
1 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Essentially what you have
2 against that is what I
3 might call the informality of the availability of
4 the funds.
5 50 Q. MS. MACKEY: And the long period of
6 time?
7 A. MR. 0'HANLON: And the long period of
8 time.
9 51 Q. MS. MACKEY: The very long period of
10 time.
11 A. MR. 0'HANLON: It is a very long period
12 of time. But then again,
13 why is that surprising? If he was the wealth
14 creator which indeed he was. If the net effect of
15 the advancing of funds to him was ultimately to
16 benefit the trust, which it was. It mightn't have
17 worked out that way of course. Again, if you were
18 the respective trustees you might have a very
19 different view
20 52 Q. MR. CUSH: No trustee acting properly
21 should make advances from
22 the trust on no terms it would appear, whether terms
23 as to repayment..(INTERJECTION)?
24 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Terms were agreed as to
25 repayment. You mean as
26 to fixed interest or a fixed time period?
27 53 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes.
28 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Absolutely
29 54 Q. MR. CUSH: What were the rates of
20
1 interest?
2 A. MR. O'HANLON: The rates of interest were
3 1.5% above deposit rate.
4 55 Q. MR. CUSH: That is what has been
5 done?
6 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, that was the agreement
7 and that was his sworn
8 evidence as well. Again, historically, I suspect
9 it was reasonably generous for the 1970's, but then
10 again his own evidence was that we have all
11 forgotten that in times of hyper-inflation that
12 equalled 17% at various times and when banks's
13 margins were more generous perhaps than they are
14 today. I take the point that if any of us were
15 trustees, that that is not the way you would set it
16 up. But then again, do consider that the success
17 of the trust was to a large extent part and parcel
18 of his ability. In other words, the trust would
19 generate profit if he was successful. This wasn't
20 a trust in the normal sense I suppose of a single
21 settlement and this is to be used in perpetuity for
22 these beneficiaries or for specific periods of time
23 or for specific beneficiaries and for specific
24 purposes. He was the wealth generator of the
25 trust. He was the entrepreneur. Investing £100
26 in AIB might give you £4 a year. Investing £100
27 with him might give you £50,000 if successful.
28 You might lose it just as well. Within that
29 context it is perhaps not entirely surprising.
21
1 It is not entirely surprising because effectively
2 the benefit of the advances was to generate wealth,
3 as it did.
4 56 Q. MS. MACKEY: As the beneficiary?
5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: As it actually did.
6 But as I say, it could
7 have been the other way around.
8 57 Q. MS. MACKEY: Supposing Mr. Love had
9 been unable to repay the
10 loan?
11 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Then the trustees would
12 have a cause of action
13 against him.
14 58 Q. MS. MACKEY: But when would that have
15 been ascertained?
16 There was no date by which he had to repay it?
17 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Presumably the legal
18 position would be that the
19 money would be repayable on demand. If monies are
20 advanced...(INTERJECTION)
21 MS. MACKEY: The actual repayment - was
22 that as a result of a
23 demand?
24 A. MR. 0'HANLON: No, I don't believe so.
25 59 Q. MR. CUSH: What about the
26 distribution to the
27 daughter? What evidence, if any, do you have of the
28 trustees exercising a discretion to make that
29 distribution?
22
1 A. MR. O'HANLON: The payment to her?
2 60 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes. But apart from that
3 is there any other
4 evidence?
5 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, but I can provide you
6 with an affidavit I
7 presume from her?
8 61 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes.
9 A. MR. O'HANLON: Only to say she received
10 it. But other than that,
11 the trustees haven't given their internal
12 machinations as to how they arrive at her and not
13 others.
14 62 Q. MS. MACKEY: How did that circumstance
15 arise? Was there some
16 correspondence from the trustees first saying
17 'We are now minded to make a distribution' or was it
18 initiated from this end or how did this suddenly
19 come about?
20 A. MR. O'HANLON: It couldn't be initiated
21 from this end.
22 63 Q. MS. MACKEY: What happened?
23 A. MR. O'HANLON: It simply couldn't be
24 initiated from this end.
25 64 Q. MS. MACKEY: So what happened?
26 A. MR. O'HANLON: She received it.
27 65 Q. MS. MACKEY: Suddenly out of the blue
28 like that?
29 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't know. I am not
23
1 privy to her affairs.
2 I don't actually know precisely what she received or
3 didn't receive other than the fact that she received
4 a distribution.
5 66 Q. MS. MACKEY: She has provided Mr. Love
6 with these statements?
7 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Precisely.
8 67 Q. MS. MACKEY: Presumably there was also
9 a covering letter winding
10 up the trust or some such document?
11 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I don't know. I don't
12 know what she got other
13 than the fact that I know she got it.
14 68 Q. MS. MACKEY: If there is, would it not
15 be relevant to our
16 investigation to have that as part of the trust
17 documents?
18 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Certainly if it exists.
19 69 Q. MS. MACKEY: There must have been
20 something coming to her.
21 She didn't get a cheque in the post and nothing
22 else.
23 70 Q. MR. CUSH: Presumably some sort of a
24 statement that the
25 trustees have decided to make a distribution to her
26 and here is the cheque or whatever?
27 A. MR. 0'HANLON: I don't know is the short
28 answer. I am not privy
29 to that, I don't know.
24
1 71 Q. MR. CUSH: Would you mind making
2 enquiries?
3 A. MR. O'HANLON: Not at all, absolutely
4 not. Of her?
5 72 Q. MR. CUSH: Yes, of her.
6 73 Q. MS. MACKEY: Does she live here?
7 A. MR. O'HANLON: She does live in Ireland.
8 74 Q. MS. MACKEY: It may be that it would be
9 necessary for us to
10 interview her and ultimately to find out how the
11 thing was wound up?
12 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed. I can found out
13 exactly what is there and
14 provide that.
15 75 Q. MS. MACKEY: Any correspondence she
16 received in relation to
17 the winding up of the trust or the distribution
18 would be relevant. Or communications of any kind.
19 If she had, for example, a telephone call from
20 Cayman or whatever, some communication made with
21 them.
22 76 Q. MR. CUSH: And I suppose just to be
23 clear, some confirmation
24 that there is no arrangement as between her and her
25 father in relation to the fund?
26 A. MR. O'HANLON: Absolutely. I can assure
27 you there isn't. I know
28 that.
29 77 Q. MS. MACKEY: Presumably there must have
25
1 also been some decision on
2 the part of the trustees as to why the entire
3 distribution was made to her rather than to...Does
4 she have brothers and sisters alive?
5 A. MR. 0'HANLON: She would have two
6 brothers.
7 78 Q. MS. MACKEY: Still living?
8 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Yes, two brothers.
9 79 Q. MS. MACKEY: And the other beneficiary
10 is listed here, the
11 mother. Is she still living?
12 MR. 0'HANLON: She is alive. Mr. Love
13 would be I guess in his
14 mid 70's. She is slightly older. Her health is
15 not good. She has Alzheimers.
16 80 Q. MS. MACKEY: There are her brothers and
17 sisters. There is the
18 settlor, herself, her husband Mr. Love himself and
19 their issue which takes in the daughter. There are
20 her brothers and sisters and Mr. Love's brothers and
21 sisters and their issue?
22 A. MR. 0'HANLON: There is the wider family.
23 81 Q. MS. MACKEY: So there was quite a large
24 class of potential
25 beneficiaries, and in the event it all came to one.
26 It was picked it would seem almost arbitrarily but
27 presumably there was some decision made?
28 A. MR. 0'HANLON: Presumably. But that is
29 a matter for the trustees
26
1 and I am not sure ...(INTERJECTION)
2 82 Q. MS. MACKEY: Absolutely. But I am
3 wondering whether that
4 would have been notified to her?
5 A. MR. O'HANLON: As to the reason why her
6 8 3 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes, why she hit the
7 jackpot as it were?
8 84 Q. MR. CUSH: Is there anything else on
9 that trust that you want
10 to say to us. You might want to say something
11 about the Lynbrette Trust?
12 A. MR. O'HANLON: Lynbrette was simply a
13 venture, that is all it
14 was. It was another venture of Yale unsuccessful.
15 This was one of the unsuccessful ones as it happens.
16 Singularly and startlingly unsuccessful from
17 recollection but it was an unsuccessful venture.
18 I don't think there is much more to be said about
19 that unless you have some specific queries about it?
20 85 Q. MS. MACKEY: You would agree that Yale
21 was one of the potential
22 beneficiaries?
23 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes. It was a Yale
24 venture. There is no
25 argument about that. But again, as we would see
26 it, it was the confusion of Mr. Love and Yale
27 understandably.
28 8 6 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes. Could you say
29 something about that,
27
1 Mr. O'Hanlon. Do you have our preliminary
2 conclusion there, Exhibit III?
3 A. MR. O'HANLON: I do.
4 8 7 Q. MS. MACKEY: Would you look at number
5 five, the most recent one
6 where we talk about Yale.
7 A. MR. O'HANLON: You say:
8 "A further Ansbacher involvement

concerns a consortium formed to carry
9 out a development near Phoenix,
Arizona, USA. Upon the advice of
10 Mr. Des Traynor of GMI, a scheme was
constructed involving the establishment
11 of a discretionary trust, (the
Lynbrette Trust) of which GMCT was the
12 Trustee. The Trust had as
beneficiaries five Cayman companies.
13 Four of these represented the interests
of four of the participants. The
14 fifth company was Yale, and Mr. Love
has informed the Inspectors through his
15 solicitor that in the consortium he
represented the interests of Yale
16 rather than the converse. In view of
the conclusion reached by the
17 Inspectors at paragraph 4, the
Inspectors are of the view that the
18 interests of Yale and those of
Mr. Love are identical, and that in
19 fact he was a de facto potential
beneficiary of the Lynbrette Trust."
20
21 What we say in relation to that is that Lynbrette
22 was a creature of Yale.
23 88 Q. MS. MACKEY: A creature of Yale?
24 A. MR. O'HANLON: A creature of Yale.
25 Sorry, Yale was the
26 potential beneficiary of the success of Lynbrette or
27 failure of Lynbrette. One of the potential
28 beneficiaries of that success. Mr. Love's
29 involvement in Yale is simply via the Elizabeth Love
28
1 Trust as a potential beneficiary. But he was a
2 wealth generator for the Elizabeth Love Trust/Yale.
3 8 9 Q. MS. MACKEY: To be clear in my own mind
4 as to the connection between Lynbrette and the
5 Elizabeth Love Trust insofar as this venture is
6 concerned -- and indeed it is what happened.
7 Lynbrette failed; that property venture failed --
8 Yale took the flack?
9 A. MR. O'HANLON: Correct.
10 90 Q. MS. MACKEY: Is it the case that the
11 Elizabeth Trust took the
12 flack?
13 A. MR. O'HANLON: Exactly. Its asset was
14 reduced in consequence of
15 that fiasco.
16 91 Q. MS. MACKEY: Is it the case then that
17 the funds used in the
18 Lynbrette venture came from the Elizabeth Love
19 Trust?
20 A. MR. O'HANLON: It came from Yale.
21 92 Q. MS. MACKEY: Where did Yale get them?
22 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yale had them; I don't
23 know.
24 93 Q. MS. MACKEY: Did they borrow them from
25 the trust?
26 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't know. I presume
27 Yale had funds from day
28 one.
29 94 Q. MS. MACKEY: Did Yale not hold the
29
1 funds of the Elizabeth
2 Love Trust. Is that not what Yale is doing in the
3 context of the Elizabeth Love Trust?
4 A. MR. O'HANLON: Yes. Yale was simply a
5 creature of the Elizabeth
6 Love Trust and it used whatever funds were available
7 to either invest or advance. So this was therefore
8 an investment.
9 95 Q. MS. MACKEY: So it held all the funds
10 of the trust?
11 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed, correct.
12 96 Q. MS. MACKEY: And it invested and it did
13 various things?
15 97 Q. MS. MACKEY: One of the investments
16 that was made was this?
17 A. MR. O'HANLON: Was Lynbrette, correct.
18 I don't think there is any
19 great area of contention in relation to this.
20 98 Q. MS. MACKEY: There may not be
21 contention but I want to
22 be clear in my mind where Mr. Love comes into this.
23 As I understand the whole Lynbrette scheme, a
24 consortium was formed to carry out a development?
26 99 Q. MS. MACKEY: That comprised a certain
27 number of American
28 businessmen and five Irish businessmen, of whom one
29 is Mr. Love?
30
1 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, Yale. Mr. Love
2 wasn't party to it, Yale
3 was the party to it.
4 100 Q. MS. MACKEY: To the whole development;
5 Mr. Love was not party at
6 all?
7 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, Yale was party to it.
8 101 Q. MR. CUSH: This is why you say
9 that Mr. Love represented
10 the interests of Yale?
11 A. MR. O'HANLON: Exactly. The success or
12 failure of Lynbrette was
13 to fall to Yale, not to Mr. Love.
14 102 Q. MS. MACKEY: When you say that he
15 represented the interests
16 of Yale, what do you mean by that?
17 A. MR. O'HANLON: I mean that in a sense he
18 was a mere trustee, that
19 he was an agent for Yale. If money was made, Yale
20 gained. If money is lost, Yale loses not Mr. Love
21 personally. It is simply another aspect of him
22 being hopefully the wealth generator or loss
23 generator in this instance for Yale, no more than
24 that.
25 103 Q. MS. MACKEY: But is it not perhaps
26 another indication of
27 Mr. Love's ability in an indirect fashion to use the
28 funds of the Elizabeth Love Trust?
29 A. MR. O'HANLON: I don't think so at all.
31
1 His motivation in all of
2 this was to generate wealth for the Elizabeth Love
3 Trust for his family. This is simply part of that.
4 104 Q. MS. MACKEY: But surely insofar as Yale
5 as a creature of the
6 Elizabeth Love Trust would be investing or doing
7 various things, it would be the trustees who would
8 be doing the investing? Here we have Mr. Love
9 acting as some kind of agent for the trust, in fact
10 deciding on an investment, risking funds?
11 A. MR. O'HANLON: But you see, that is not
12 the way in fact.
13 The trustees effectively would make advances to
14 Mr. Love.
15 105 Q. MS. MACKEY: Was this an advance they
16 made? I am looking now
17 at this investment into the Lynbrette scheme which
18 on your submission is an investment made by Yale?
20 106 Q. MS. MACKEY: And Yale is the company
21 that runs the Elizabeth
22 Love fund?
24 107 Q. MS. MACKEY: The whole purpose of the
25 trustees of the trust are
26 to manage the funds, to ensure they are properly
27 invested, to do all the running of them and so on.
28 And therefore, if any of the Yale funds were to be
29 used in such a scheme, I would have thought that the
32
1 trustees would be the ones to decide they were to do
2 so?
3 A. MR. O'HANLON: But who is to say that
4 they didn't?
5 108 Q. MS. MACKEY: We see no indication.
6 What we see is Mr. Love.
7 He is the only person we see?
8 A. MR. O'HANLON: Of course because you
9 don't see the trustees and
10 they are not here. But who is to say what went on
11 in relation to that?
12 109 Q. MR. CUSH: Mr. Love might be able to
13 say that he asked the
14 trustees or negotiated with them or persuaded them
15 endless things.
16 110 Q. MS. MACKEY: If he saw this property
17 opportunity, this
18 development opportunity, this investment
19 opportunity, and he felt that this would be a good
20 chance for the trust to make some money, wouldn't he
21 have to at least contact the trustees and say
22 'There is an opportunity available. Someone has
23 approached me about this.'
24 A. MR. O'HANLON: For a start, I am quite
25 sure he has never ever
26 spoken to any trustee because he never knew who the
27 trustees were. Therefore any negotiations he had
28 was through Mr. Traynor or any discussions he had
29 was through Mr. Traynor. He didn't give evidence
33
1 from recollection in relation to that aspect of it
2 other than generally about what occurred. So I
3 assume that in relation to this, the financing of it
4 was dealt with by Mr. Traynor and presumably
5 Mr. Traynor said 'Yale does X and Yale does Y.'
6 111 Q. MS. MACKEY: I don't think we have any
7 evidence of that in
8 relation to him?
9 A. MR. O'HANLON: It should be easy enough
10 to check that Mr. Love as
11 to what his recollection is of exactly how it was
12 financed.
13 112 Q. MS. MACKEY: The two things are
14 interlinked in that sense?
15 A. MR. O'HANLON: They are; I appreciate the
16 point.
17 113 Q. MR. CUSH: There are a couple of
18 things that you might be
19 able to help us with. Aside from
20 that...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. MR. O'HANLON: No, I think we will.
22 Just to recap if I may:
23 The date of repayment by Mr. Love is number one.
24 Secondly, the statement of affairs from Yale as to
25 what was in these documents. The trustees to
26 Mr. Love's daughter in terms of the distribution as
27 to what documentation there is. Confirmation that
28 there was no agreement, tacit or otherwise, between
29 the daughter and the father. Does the daughter
34
1 know why she was the lucky one.
2 114 Q. MS. MACKEY: I think that would all
3 come within the category
4 of documents relating to the distribution?
5 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed. And finally
6 Yale's involvement in
7 Lynbrette.
8 115 Q. MS. MACKEY: With Mr. Love's
9 recollection of it.
10 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed and exactly how the
11 financing....Did he not
12 say in relation to it....I certainly read somewhere
13 that it was Mr. Traynor who arranged the financing
14 of that.
15 116 Q. MR. CUSH: The structures.
16 A. MR. O'HANLON: That is as far frankly as
17 I know of that. I have
18 certainly come across that aspect of it.
19 117 Q. MS. MACKEY: He certainly advised about
20 the construction of the
21 scheme.
22 A. MR. O'HANLON: Indeed.
23 118 Q. MS. MACKEY: I don't remember anything
24 being said -- but I might
25 be wrong -- about the financing?
26 A. MR. O'HANLON: If you would leave
27 that with me and I will
28 get that as soon as I can.
29 119 Q. MR. CUSH: In terms of timing?
35
1 A. MR. O'HANLON: I suppose you want to
2 lock-up shop.
3 If we say ten days or something like that?
4 120 Q. MS. MACKEY: If we could have it before
5 Easter?
6 A. MR. O'HANLON: That would be fine.
7 121 Q. MS. MACKEY: Actually by Thursday
8 evening, 28th March, if
9 that is possible because we will be closed on the
10 Friday.
11
12 END OF SUBMISSIONS BY MR O'HANLON ON BEHALF OF
13 MR. CLAYTON LOVE
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
36
Appendix XV (68) Mr Bryan Lynam
Byran Lynam
a) Unsworn statement of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 June 2000.
b) Letter of 22 June 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Solicitor to the

Inspectors.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Bryan Lynam.
a) Letter of 21 August 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.
b) Letter of 21 August 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.
c) Letter of 17 September 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.
d) Letter of 26 October 2001 - LK Shields Solicitors to Inspectors.

REVISED UNSWORN STATEMENT OF
EDDIE LYNAM ff;v
v&w »
I, Eddie Lynam, make this statement supplemental to my unsworn Statement of 23rd

March, 2000.
I should mention that I was asked on 23rd March, 2000 by the Honourable Mr. Justice
Costello to ascertain whether I had any further documentation, including any trust
documentation or letters of wishes.
When I met with the Inspectors on 23rd March, 2000 I furnished to them all
documentation which was within my possession, power or procurement at that time.
Subsequent to my meeting with the Inspectors, I carried out a further search of my
house (having previously carried out thorough searches at my home) and I uncovered
further documentation that I had not bean aware of prior to the meeting.
I enclose further copy bank statementsfrom Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited. As you

previously indicated to me by letter dated 23rd December, 1999 that you have no
interest infinancial details, I have accordingly been advised by my Solicitors that it is
appropriate for me to delete such details. I have also uncovered two letters of wishes,
one dated 3rd September, 1981, the other dated 5th March, 1987.
In February, 19941 instructed Mr Des Traynor to transfer my account into the names
of my son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Mary Lynam, for convenience purposes
only. My children were aware that the beneficial interest in the monies would remain
with me.
I also enclose herewith further correspondence received by me from Mr Padraig

Colleiy, Ms Joan Williams and Mr Des Traynor which I discovered as a result of my
recent search. It would also appearfrom the documentation enclosed herewith that on
certain occasions where Mr Des Traynor was unable to contact me (to receive
instructions), the deposit was "rolled over", by Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited, on his
instructions.
I can now also confirm that the joint-account which I held with my brother was split
in approximately March, 1987. This is evidenced by a letterfrom Mr Des Traynor.
On 23rd March, 20001 was under the mistaken belief that at no stage did I transfer
any funds to an account in the Isle of Man. It would appear from the documentation
enclosed herewith (that I have recently discovered) that monies were transferred to
Ulster Bank, Isle of Man, by Mr Des Traynor, on my instructions. I apologise for any
confusion that might have been caused in this regard. Without the benefit of this
information I would not have been in a position to confirm that I gave these
instructions to Mr. Des Traynor. I still have no recollection of giving these
instructions to Mr. Des Traynor.
As you are aware, I wrote to Mr Padraig Colleiy asking him to furnish to me any
documentation that he might have had in relation to my account. I also wrote to
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited and Mr. Cathal Mac Carthy of Guinness Mahon
(Ireland) Limited. I have not received a replyfrom any of these parties.
(1477/001 EC/DOCS/STATE2.DOC)
jn
SOLICITORS
TlUPHONBi 933*1 «1 nut

Ms. Mary Cummins,
Solicitor to the Inspectors,
3rd Floor, our Rot 1477-001/LKS/EC/010611L2
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin YOU* Rift C/L06/MLCraf
22** June, 2001
Re: Our Client! Edward P. Lynam
Dear Ms. Cummins, a* <m m
We refer to your letter of 12 th inst
Our client instructs us to respond to your letter as follows:-
Regnrding paragraphs 1 and 2
As you are aware, our client instructed Mr Desmond Traynor to transfer his account held with Ansbacher
(Cayman) Limited ("Ansbacher") to the names of his son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Maty Lynam.
Our client gave this instruction to Mr Traynor for convenience purposes only (our client retaining the
beneficial interest in the monies), however, our client is not sure whether he communicated this specific
fact toMr Traynor. Our client instructs us that after receiving Mr Tiaynor's reply of March, 1994,
our client received no further correspondencefrom Mr Traynor or Mr Collpry to the best of his
knowledge and that any other correspondence relating to this account was sent to Ms Mary Lynam.
Our client understands that Ms. Mary Lynam and Mr Bryan Lynam wrote to Mr Collery by letter dated
2 2 n d February, 1995 on our client's instructions and instructed him to transfer the funds held wife
Ansbacher to an account in Ulster Bank (Isle of Man) Limited. This letter also sought confirmation that
the account with Ansbacher had been closed
Regarding Paragraph 3
As previously advised, our client instructs us that to the best of his knowledge no lodgments were made
to the account held by htm wife Ansbacher after fee initial lodgment. The correspondence referred to in
your letter under reply refers to the bank account being "rolled over" on a periodic basis.
We trust this tetter clarifies your queries.

Y0,,rc +V,!«+ifiiM>/
L K SHIELDS. SOLICITORS.
SOLICITORS
3 9 / 4 0 UPPER M O U N T STREET
DUBLIN 2, IRELAND.
TELEPHONE: 353+1 661 0866

FACSIMILE: 353+1 661 0883
D.D.E. Box No: 123
His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary, E - M A I L : email@lkshields.ie
W E B S I T E : http://www.lkshields.ie
Ms. Noreen Mackey B.L.,
O U R REF:
Mr Paul Rowan F.C.A. & Mr Michael Cush S.C., 1477-001/EB/BMG/010820L2
Inspectors,
Third Floor, Trident House, Y O U R REF:
C/L06/NSPM
Blackrock, Co. Dublin
21 st August, 2001
re: Our Clients: Ms Mary Maher & Mr Bryan Lynam
Dear Sirs/Madam,
We refer to your letters of 31 st July, 2001 addressed to our clients.
Our clients wish to respond to the preliminary conclusion by you that our clients were "a client
of Ansbacher". Our clients note that you have not defined what is meant by "a client of
Ansbacher" and we should be obliged if you might do so. Furthermore, you might clarify
whether our clients are entitled to pursue option (d) as set out in Appendix C of your letter under
reply, if they so wish.
Finally, we enclose herewith letters written on behalf of our clients seeking certain confirmations
from you.
Yours faithfully,
LTK SHIELDS, SOLICITORS
Ends.
L. >IKE.\CE K. SHIELD?. U t t l L N D BLTUSt "A RWOA MlOOVEKN, I R CH CAKVEY ; 0 SHI'H U GAVIN, r'MMET SCT'.LY. GERARD HALPEXNY
•ESTI\ >.kKLNNA. MICHAEL K A Y ' , : . . X ' G E N ' E l'ANM\'G. i M ' I D ' li. A ll.LIAMS. FIONA rHOKNTOV MCOI.A PALMER,
( 1
ÛI.EV.'.rE!'.'!!--'. I.-..S J!L CKLEV. . U,LA ,1'::; 'PPI'YL.NM EN./'HHJj' DAL','. ",1'YiX MAHCO '.V MICKEY ; - i ''A\'OK ML' ' >ME-
V J H L U B ; V
" Htl - :.' 'ERVAI O HAL.^-K .;: '••>,>. il-'-R, : ' \ E : L l , CAHI ! IAN NI.'.vLlAiN. . '!)I<A ..'KAMI': '.\ s .,.„•,.. .,„,„„,„, ntOMAS TM KS.">V.f m.
SOLICITORS
39/40 UPPER M O U N T STREET
DUBLIN 2, IRELAND.
TELEPHONE: 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0866
FACSIMILE: 353+1 661 0883
D.D.E. Box No: 123
E - M A I L : email@lkshields.ie
The Inspectors, WEBSITE: http://www.lkshields.ie
His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary, O U R REF:
Ms Noreen Mackey B.L., Mr Paul Rowan F.C.A., 1477-001/LKS/EC/010820L3

Mr Michael CushS.C.,
Y O U R REF:
4th Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
County Dublin. 21 st August, 2001
a m i o
Re: Our Clients: Mr Bryan Lynam & Ms. Mary Maher
Dear Sirs/Madam,
We refer to your letters of 31 st July, 2001 with enclosures to our clients and are instructed to
reply to same. We note that you have formed the preliminary conclusion that our clients were "a
client of Ansbacher" and that you have afforded our clients the opportunity to provide you with a
written reply to this preliminary conclusion.
While it is acknowledged that you have set out the procedures to be followed by the Inspectors at
Appendix C to your letters of 31 st July, 2001, prior to advising our clients to provide any written
response, or indeed any response, we request certain assurances from you.
We refer you to the Supreme Court Judgment In the Matter of National Irish Bank Limited,
(unreported, 21st January, 1999), in which Judgment Mr. Justice Barrington stated, inter alia,:-
"In these circumstances I would uphold the decision of the learned High Court Judge but
would add the statement that a confession of a Bank Official obtained by the Inspectors as a
result of the exercise by them of their powers under Section 10 of the Companies Act, 1990
would not, in general, be admissible at a subsequent criminal trial of such Officials, unless, in
any particular case, the trial Judge was satisfied that the confession was voluntary."
In order to protect the interests of our clients and to guard against any perception that our clients
will voluntarily answer questions, provide information or provide books or documents or
information to you as Inspectors (which they will not), we request that you confirm that you
accept that any information given, or questions answered, or books or records furnished, by our
clients would not be voluntarily given.
LAURENCE K. SHIELDS, EDMUND BUTLER, PATRICIA McGOVERN, HUGH GARVEY, JOSEPH M. GAVIN, EMMET SCULLY, GERARD HALPENNY,
JUSTIN McKENNA, MICHAEL KAVANACH, EUGENE FANNING, DAVID J.H. WILUAMS, FIONA THORNTON, NICOLA PALMER.
AOIFE BRADLEY, STEPHEN DRENNAN, SIOBHAN BUCKLEY, PAULA BURKE, EOIN CUNNEEN, PHILIP DALY, PAT FOX, MARCO W. HICKEY, JANE MEEHAN, CONOR MULLANY, JAMES McGILUON,
NIAMH McKEON, OliLAIGH O'DWYER. DERVAL O' HALLORAN, JENNIFER O'NEILL, GARBHAN O'NUALLAIN, CORA CRAMPTON (Financial Controller), THOMAS JACKSON (Consultant).
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully,
SHIELDS, SOLICITORS
SOLICITORS
D U B L I N 2, IRELAND.
TELEPHONE: 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0866
FACSIMILE: 353+1 661 0883
D.D.E. Box N o : 123
E-MAIL: email@lkshields.ie
The Joint-Inspectors, WEBSITE: http://www.lkshields.ie
3rd Floor, O U R REF:
Trident House, 1477-001/LKS/EC/010913 L4

Blackrock,
Y O U R REF:
Co. Dublin.
C/L13 / C/M47/MLC/mf
By Hand
17th September, 2001
re: Our Client: Bryan Lynam
Dear Sirs/Madam,
We refer to previous correspondence in relation to our client Bryan Lynam and to your
preliminary conclusions communicated in your letter of the 31 st July 2001. Let us firstly put on
record our instructions that our client was not at any stage a "client" of Ansbacher and did not at
any stage have any beneficial interest in any funds in an Ansbacher account.
With reference to the Inspectors preliminary conclusions in relation to Mr. Edward Lynam, we
note your comment that:-
"Although Mr. Lynam claims to have retained the beneficial interest in the deposit
account, the documents do not support this assertion. "
This, combined with the reference to the change of a name, is an implied finding that our client
held a beneficial interest in that account after February 1994. That finding would be immensely
damaging to our client's good name and would reflect a position which is untrue in fact. We
believe this to be an unjustified attack on our client's good name in circumstances where the
unchallenged evidence, of Edward Lynam is that he himself was at all times the beneficial owner.
Indeed, there is no other evidence as to beneficial ownership of the funds in that account. There
is of course evidence as to a change of name of the account but that does not address the issue of
beneficial ownership. It is quite wrong to refer to the change of name independently of the true
position on beneficial ownership and in a way which creates the misleading impression that our
client was a client of Ansbacher.
In the light of your invitation to our client to submit a written statement we now enclose an
affidavit sworn by our client setting out the true position on oath. Please note that our client
submits this affidavit and this letter under compulsion of the process in which the Inspectors are
engaged and in that sense, it is not a voluntary statement. However, if you have any doubt as to
LAURENCE K. SHIELDS, EDMUND BUTLER, PATRICIA McGOVERN, HUGH GARVEY, JOSEPH M. GAVIN, EMMET SCULLY, GERARD HALPENNY,
JUSTIN McKENNA, MICHAEL KAVANIAC.H, EUGENE FANNING, DAVID J.H. WILLIAMS, FIONA THORNTON, NICOLA PALMER,
AOII'E BRADLEY, STEPHEN BRKNNAN. SIOBHAN BUCKLEY PAULA BURKE, FOIN CUNNEEN, PHILIP DALY, PAT FOX, MARCO W. HICKEY, JANE MEEHAN, CONOR MULLANY, JAMES McGILLlON,
NIAMH McKEON, ORLAIGH O'DWYER, DEKVAL O' IIALLORAN, JENNIFER O'NEILL, GARBHAN O'NUALLAIN, CORA CRAMITON (Financial Controller), THOMAS JACKSON (Consultant).
the veracity of what our client says on oath, we invite you to exercise your powers to require him
to attend for cross-examination and confirm that if so required, he will attend.
In the circumstances, we request you to alter your conclusions and not include any finding to the
effect that Bryan Lynam enjoyed the use of the funds on deposit and not to include a conclusion
that Bryan Lynam was a "client" of Ansbacher since both of those conclusions would be untrue,
unsupported by the evidence and in all the circumstances, an unjustified attack on our client's
good name.
Yours faithfiillv
L.K. SHIELDS, SOLICITORS

SOLICITORS
DUBLIN 2, IRELAND.
TELEPHONE: 3 5 3 + 1 6 6 1 0866
FACSIMILE: 353+1 661 0883
D.D.E. Box No: 123
E-MAIL: email@lkshields.ie
WEBSITE: http://www.lkshields.ie
His Honour Judge Sean O'Leary,
Ms. Noreen Mackey B.L., O U R REF:
1477-001/EC/BMG/011023L2
Mr Paul Rowan F.C.A. & Mr Michael Cush S.C.,
Joint- Inspectors, Third Floor, Y O U R REF:
C/L06/NSPM
Trident House, Blackrock, Co. Dublin
26th October, 2001
Re: Our Client: Mr Bryan Lynam
Dear Sirs/Madam,
We refer to your letter of 11"' October, 2001, the contents of which we have noted.
We assume that your preliminary conclusion that our client was a "client of Ansbacher" (which
you have not defined, despite our requests) was determined on the basis of the existence of our
client's name as a signatory on the account and letters signed by her and not on any consideration
of the beneficial ownership of the account. If so, it seems to us that you have attached a meaning
to the concept of "client" which is strained and quite simply wrong and results in a serious
injustice to our client. We do not accept that your terms of reference entitle you to resolve
disputed issues as to the meaning of this term. Your function is, inter alia, to identify persons
falling into a certain category and not to reach conclusions of law as to the meaning of that
category. If there is doubt, it should be resolved by the court before our client's good name is
impugned.
In the event that you are of the view that our assumption is incorrect and you consider the issue
of beneficial ownership to be relevant to forming your preliminary conclusions then we invite
you to call our client to an interview with you on the usual involuntary basis.
Finally, we note that your letter under reply was not signed by Mr Michael Cush, S.C.
Yours faithfully.
LAURENCE K. SHIELDS. EDMUND BUTLER, PATRICIA McCOVFRN. HUGH GARVEY, JOSEPH M. GAVIN, EMMET SCULLY. GERARD HALPENNY,
JUSTIN McKENNA, MICHAEL KAVANACH. EUGENE FANNING, DAVID J.H. WILLIAMS, FIONA THORNTON, NICOLA PALMER,
AOIFE BRADLEY, STEPHEN BRENNAN, SIOBHAN BUCKLEY, PAULA BURKE, EOIN CL'NNEEN, PHILIP DALY, PAT FOX, MARCO W. HICKEY, CONOR MULLANY, JAMES McGILLION,
N1AMH MckEON, ORLAIGH O'DVVYER, DEKVAl. O' HALLOliAN, JENNIFER O'NEILL, GARBHAN O'NUAI.LAIN, CORACRAMPTON (Financial Controller), THOMAS JACKSON (Consultant)-
Appendix XV (69) Mr Edward Lynam
Edward Lynam.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 March 2000.
b) Unsworn statement of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 March 2000.
c) Letter of 3 December 1979 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.
d) Letter of 2 January 1980 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.
e) Letter of 3 March 1980 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.
f) Letter of 2 April 1980 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.
g) Letter of 11 September 1981 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.
h) Letter of 1 March 1982 - GMCT to Mr Edward Lynam.
i) Letter of 4 November 1986 - JD Traynor to Mr Edward Lynam.
j) Letter of 5 March 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
k) Letter of 5 June 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
1) Letter of 5 September 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
m) Revised unsworn statement of Mr Edward Lynam dated 23 June 2000.
n) Letter of 22 June 2001 - LK Shields to Solicitor to Inspectors.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. EDWARD LYNAM
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 23RD MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. EDWARD LYNAM
Represented by: MR. LAURENCE SHIELDS
LK SHIELDS SOLICITORS
42 UPPER MOUNT STREET
DUBLIN 2
INDEX
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. E. LYNAM MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON THURSDAY
2 23RD MARCH 2000
5 MR. SHIELDS: Sorry for holding you
6 up. Mr. Lynam's taxi took
7 a lot longer to get into our office and then I took
8 a lot longer ferreting around looking for a car
9 parking space.
10 MR. JUSTICE SMYTH: Mr. Lynam, we will start
11 our interview then.
12 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: My name is Declan Costello
14 and on my right is
15 Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan. We are the
16 Inspectors as you know.
17 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Who have been appointed by
19 the Court to undertake
20 this investigation.
21 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you
23 that this is not a Court
24 and it is not a Tribunal. It is an investigation.
25 If in the course of the questions that we ask you,
26 you wish to obtain the advice of your solicitor.
27 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Please tell me so and we
29 will stop and you can ask
4
1 the solicitor.
2 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Similarly, if in the
4 course of the questions
5 your solicitor would wish to ask permission to
6 advise you, then we will stop and you can take
7 advice. You understand that you are free then to
8 take legal advice at any time during the course of
9 this interview.
10 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: This interview is held
12 under oath and I will ask
13 our solicitor now to administer the oath to you
14 Mr. Lynam.
15 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. EDWARD LYNAM, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED,
2 AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lynam, you received a
5 long letter from us, is
6 that not so?
7 A. Yes.
8 2 Q. If you would just look at me, Mr. Lynam?
9 A. Yes.
10 3 Q. You will recall that in that letter we asked for a
11 full and detailed statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 4 Q. I want to know why you did not comply with that
14 request.
15 MR. SHIELDS: Well...(INTERJECTION)
16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, Mr. Shields, I must
17 ask the witness the
18 question.
19 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.
20 A. I think it came -- was that the one from you? I got
21 it from you?
22 5 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes?
23 A. Well, that would be Christmas Eve.
24 6 Q. Yes?
25 A. Well, I didn't — I think I sought advice
26 afterwards.
27 7 Q. Yes?
28 A. And then the next thing I got another letter from
29 you I think.
6
1 8 Q. Yes?
2 A. And that is the reason I didn't bother up to that.
3 9 Q. You did not bother today?
4 A. Because I was always --• it was iminent, you know.
5 10 Q. Yes . Because it was iminent you did not -- have you
6 got a statement?
7 MR. SHIELDS: We have an unsworn
8 statement.
9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I see.
10 MR. SHIELDS: Which we want to hand
11 over.
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes .
13 MR. SHIELDS: And that is the point I
14 was trying to make.
15 11 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. However, the witness
16 then is going to hand in
17 an unsworn statement?
18 A. Yes .
19 MR. SHIELDS: Correct.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then. Thank
21 you.
22 MR. SHIELDS: There are three copies
23 of it there. That is the
24 signed one (Exhibit 1) (Same Handed).
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes .
26 MR. SHIELDS: So that there are
27 additional copies.
28 12 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You will appreciate
29 Mr. Lynam that it will be

1 impossible for us to read the statement.
2 MR. SHIELDS: It is a very short
3 statement.
4 13 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That has now being given
5 Mr. Lynam?
6 A. Yes.
7 14 Q. It will be impossible for us to deal with it. It
8 may be necessary for us to recall you?
9 A. Yes.
10 15 Q. At a later date?
11 A. Yes.
12 16 Q. Do you understand that, Mr. Lynam?
13 A. I understand that, yes. It is a very short
14 statement.
15 17 Q. Mr. Lynam, this indicates that Mr. Traynor wrote to
16 you in 1986 and he says that he attaches the
17 original letter of wishes from you both?
18 A. Yes.
19 18 Q. It says:
20 "When you have had the opportunity to

consider please ring to advise me of
21 the position"?
22
23 A. Yes, I can't recall what happened then.
24 19 Q. However, I wonder where the letter of wishes is?
25 A. I don't know at the moment. I honestly don't know.
26 20 Q. Have you looked for it Mr. Lynam?
27 A. Since, yes, I have.
28 21 Q. Do you know where it is? Where you would put it?
29 A. It would be -- it must be with Traynor's office.
8
1 22 Q. In Traynor's office?
2 A. It must be. That is the only place. I don't think
3 I have it. I haven't got it.
4 23 Q. Did you look in your own records?
5 A. Well, I haven't much records at all.
6 24 Q. No. However, you will see that this is a letter
7 written to you. Is this your home address?
8 A. Yes.
9 25 Q. 313 Navan Road?
10 A. Yes.
11 26 Q. Yes?
12 A. Yes, well, there was -- my brother was handling the
13 correspondence in relation to those things, you
14 know, and I have no correspondence at all really.
15 27 Q. Are you E.P. Lynam?
16 A. I am Edward P. Lynam, yes.
17 28 Q. This letter was written to you?
18 A. It was written to me.
19 29 Q. Have you looked for the letter of wishes?
20 A. Yes, and I can't find it.
21 30 Q. You cannot find it?
22 A. No.
23 31 Q. Where did you look?
24 A. In the house, in my own house, in some of the
25 drawers and that is all. That is the only way I
26 could find it.
27 32 Q. Did you have a solicitor at the time?
28 A. What year was that? I had solicitors all the time.
29 33 Q. Who was your solicitor at the time?
9
1 A. I don't know. It might have been O'Connor &
2 Company.
3 MR. SHIELDS: This is 1986.
4 A. 1986, it might have been John. It was either
5 Michael Staines or John S. O'Connor, one of the two.
6 1986 would be Michael Staines I think.
7 34 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Michael Staines, you
8 think?
9 A. I think it would have been, yes.
10 35 Q. And...(INTERJECTION)?
11 A. I didn't ask him come to think of it.
12 36 Q. You did not ask him?
13 A. No.
14 37 Q. Where did you find this letter?
15 A. That letter would have been given to me
16 by...(INTERJECTION).
17 38 Q. Sorry Mr. Lynam?
18 A. It would have been given to me...(INTERJECTION).
19 39 Q. If I could just interrupt you?
20 A. Yes.
21 40 Q. For a moment?
22 A. Yes.
23 41 Q. Mr. Lynam, I appreciate that this happened a long
24 time ago?
25 A. Yes.
26 42 Q. And that your memory may be infirm and I would
27 prefer if you would just tell me if you cannot
28 remember?
29 A. I can't remember.
10
1 43 Q. Just tell me if you cannot remember?
2 A. I can't.
3 44 Q. And if you cannot remember we can go into it perhaps
4 further. However, at the moment I would prefer if
5 you would indicate to me if you cannot remember?
6 A. I can't remember where it is.
7 45 Q. Okay?
8 A. Right.
9 MR. SHIELDS: I think -- sorry, just if
10 I may say that we have
11 tried to have a number of interviews. We have only
12 been instructed by Mr. Lynam since his letter
13 arrived from the Inspectors.
15 MR. SHIELDS: We have tried to get the
16 picture, which is set out
17 in the unsworn statement, and I would have to say
18 that Mr. Lynam's recollection is far from clear on a
19 lot of occasions.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Shields,
21 if...(INTERJECTION).
22 MR. SHIELDS: That is why we have tried
24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If I
25 could...(INTERJECTION).
26 MR. SHIELDS: Put it together in that.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Shields?
29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If I could stop you?
11
1 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: This is not a Court of
3 law.
4 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.
5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, we are
6 investigating the
7 position.
8 MR. SHIELDS: I accept that. I accept
9 that.
10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And we have to make our
11 judgment ourselves.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Not on what he may have
14 told you or may not have
15 told to you.
16 MR. SHIELDS: I accept that fully.
17 A. Yes.
18 46 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I must press you a little
19 bit on this, Mr. Lynam?
20 A. Yes.
21 47 Q. You have produced for us a letter of the
22 4th November 1986 in your statement(Exhibit 1)?
23 A. Yes.
24 48 Q. Where did you get this letter?
25 A. I got it from one of my nieces.
26 49 Q. Your niece?
27 A. Yes.
28 50 Q. What is her name?
29 A. Eileen.
12
1 51 Q. MR. SHIELDS: Are you sure now?
2 A. No, hold on.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, Mr. Shields.
4 MR. SHIELDS: I am sorry.
5 A. No.
6 52 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am sorry. I
7 must...(INTERJECTION).
8 A. No, hold on a minute, sorry
9 53 Q. I must ask you not to comment?
10 MR. SHIELDS: But I think his
11 recollection
12 is...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. No, I know. I got the letter that you have, this
14 one here, at the time of the split.
15 MR. SHIELDS: You gave us that letter.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. SHIELDS: The question being asked
18 of you is "where did you
19 get it"?
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, Mr. Shields.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I really
23 must...(INTERJECTION).
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I really must insist that
26 we carry out these
27 procedures in a proper way.
28 A. Yes. You want to know where I got this letter?
29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am examining the
13
1 witness.
2 MR. SHIELDS: Yes, sorry.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you want to stop any
4 question to give him legal
5 advice do so.
6 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.
7 54 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes?
8 A. Is this the letter you are referring to?
9 November the 4th is that the letter you have?
10 55 Q. Yes. I am referring to one on the
11 4th November 1986?
12 A. Yes, I would have got that from Trinity Street,
13 Des Traynor.
14 56 Q. Who did you get it from?
15 A. Des Traynor.
16 57 Q. Yes?
17 A. That is the name that is on it any way.
18 58 Q. No. However, you have handed this letter to me now.
19 Do you know where you got it: Who you got it from?
20 A. I found that. That is one of the few things that I
21 found.
22 59 Q. Where did you find it?
23 A. In my own house.
24 60 Q. In your own house?
25 A. Yes.
26 61 Q. Had you an accountant, Mr. Lynam?
27 A. Yes. When...(INTERJECTION)?
28 62 Q. Who...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. In this period?
14
1 63 Q. Yes?
2 A. It was Haughey Boland.
3 64 Q. Haughey Boland?
4 A. Yes.
5 65 Q. At the present time have you an accountant?
6 A. Yes.
7 66 Q. Who is that?
8 A. Deloitte & Touche.
9 67 Q. They are the successors?
10 A. Yes.
11 68 Q. To Haughey Boland?
12 A. Yes.
13 69 Q. Did you make enquiries from them about any of the
14 documents?
15 A. No, they wouldn't have them.
16 70 Q. You did not make enquiries?
17 A. I didn't make enquiries because I know they wouldn't
18 have them. Traynor wouldn't deal with any of them.
19 71 Q. He dealt directly with you?
20 A. Yes, anything I would get I got from him.
21 72 Q. Yes?
22 A. Or my brother would get it.
23 73 Q. Yes. In relation to this, this refers to a letter
24 of wishes?
25 A. Yes.
26 74 Q. It would appear to indicate that a trust had been
27 established?
28 A. Yes. I can't recall that to be quite honest, the
29 details of that now. I mean if it has been -- if
15
1 there was a trust done it must be there so.
2 75 Q. Where do you think it is?
3 A. It must be in -- it is in being but I don't know
4 about it.
5 76 Q. Yes. Would you be prepared to write to "Ansbacher"
6 in Cayman?
7 A. Yes, any of them...(INTERJECTION).
8 77 Q. For a copy of it?
9 A. I will write to anybody that you want me to. I will
10 do it and I will get it.
11 78 Q. Yes. Have you done so up to now?
12 A. No.
13 79 Q. Will you?
14 A. I will, yes. I certainly will, yes.
15 80 Q. If I may just return Mr. Lynam to your -- just if
16 you could briefly indicate your history? You are a
17 builder?
18 A. Yes.
19 81 Q. You have been a builder?
20 A. Yes. I was a builder, a house builder, for the
21 last 54 years.
22 82 Q. Yes?
23 A. And I was in partnership with my brother.
24 83 Q. Yes?
25 A. Early on.
26 84 Q. Yes?
27 A. Most of the time.
28 85 Q. Yes?
29 A. And we built houses everywhere and we were with
16
1 Haughey Boland. Haughey Boland were our
2 accountants.
3 86 Q. Yes?
4 A. And the rest you have it there. Well -- I got a
5 call from Des Traynor when he left, after he left,
6 Haughey Boland.
7 87 Q. Yes?
8 A. And he would have known our firm because they did
9 accounts you see for it.
10 88 Q. Yes?
11 A. He did.
12 89 Q. Yes?
13 A. He was involved in the accounts for one year and he
14 knew there was no overdrafts and that we would be --
15 any money we didn't use we would always put it on
16 deposit and that.
17 90 Q. Yes. With him?
18 A. No, we used it in building sites around here. The
19 usual thing around here.
20 91 Q. Yes?
21 A. But he then -- he came up with -- well, he rang me,
22 as I told you. He rang me to see did I -- had I any
23 money I wanted to put on deposit.
24 92 Q. Yes?
25 A. It is exactly as it is there.
26 93 Q. As you said in your statement?
27 A. That is it.
28 94 Q. Yes?
29 A. And being exactly as it says there.
17
1 95 Q. In the statement. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Yes. So, I saw him very little. I haven't -- I
3 didn't see him for about the last five or six years.
4 96 Q. Yes?
5 A. Or ten years.
6 97 Q. Yes. Perhaps, we will go through your statement.
7 Mr. Shields has he got a copy of the statement?
8 MR. SHIELDS: He has, yes?
9 A. Yes.
10 98 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Perhaps, we will go
11 through the statement with
12 you (Exhibit 1)?
13 A. Yes.
14 99 Q. In 1979 you received a call from Mr. Traynor. Was
15 he looking after your accounts at that time?
16 A. No.
17 100 Q. However, his firm...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. He had left Haughey Boland.
19 101 Q. He left Haughey Boland?
20 A. Yes.
21 102 Q. You consulted with your brother and you got in touch
22 with him then?
23 A. And we met Traynor.
24 103 Q. You met Mr. Traynor?
25 A. Yes, we met Traynor. My brother and I met Traynor.
26 104 Q. Yes. Had he looked after your accounts in Haughey
27 Boland. Did you know Mr. Traynor?
28 A. I did know him.
29 105 Q. You did know him?
18
1 A. I knew him well but he only looked after the
2 accounts about -- I think he only did one year.
3 That is about all.
4 106 Q. Yes. He told you then that there would be deposits
5 in a bank in the Caymans of which he was a Director?
6 A. Yes.
7 107 Q. Did you know that bank? Did you know the name of
8 the bank?
9 A. No, at that time I didn't know.
10 108 Q. However, later on you learnt it?
11 A. I did, yes, "Ansbacher".
12 109 Q. Yes. The Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, I think it
13 was known as then?
14 A. No, I didn't, I never heard that word before.
15 110 Q. What one did you hear?
16 A. I only heard that in the papers lately.
17 111 Q. What bank did you hear?
18 A. At first I didn't. I might have been told
19 "Ansbacher" but I didn't -- "Ansbacher Cayman"
20 became noticeable once or twice afterwards.
21 112 Q. Afterwards?
22 A. Yes.
23 113 Q. Later on?
24 A. Yes, but not during this, what is going on now.
25 114 Q. Yes?
26 A. But afterwards I knew there was "Ansbacher" and I
27 think it was based in London. There was something
28 to do with London. At that time I used to get an
29 odd confirmation of the amounts.
19
1 115 Q. Of the amounts?
2 A. Yes.
3 116 Q. Who gave you those, Mr. Lynam?
4 A. I got them from Ms. Williams in Traynor's office.
5 117 Q. In Traynor's office?
6 A. Yes.
7 118 Q. Yes?
8 A. She would give it to me over the phone. She would
9 ring me, "Mr. Lynam," telling me the interest it
10 made this month.
11 119 Q. Yes?
12 A. And she might confirm it. Sometimes she would but
13 not always.
14 120 Q. The interest was changing?
15 A. Yes.
16 121 Q. She would tell you what interest was earned?
17 A. She would tell you that your interest was changing.
18 122 Q. Yes?
19 A. And she would give me the balance every now and
20 again.
21 123 Q. Yes?
22 A. Over the phone so...(INTERJECTION).
23 124 Q. Did you ever go into the office and get any sort of
24 statement from her?
25 A. I did. Well, no. She sent me a few statements.
26 125 Q. Did she?
27 A. I have to say that, yes.
28 126 Q. Yes?
29 A. And I think -- no, she sent me them all right.
20
1 127 Q. She sent them to you?
2 A. She sent them to me alright. Yes, she did send them
3 all right.
4 128 Q. Can you remember was there any name on the top of
5 the statement?
6 A. "Ansbacher".
7 129 Q. Or was it cut off?
8 A. "Ansbacher".
9 130 Q. "Ansbacher"?
10 A. "Ansbacher".
11 131 Q. Yes. Did you ever visit Mr. Traynor in his office?
12 A. I visited him in -- no, the only time I visited
13 Traynor since he left Haughey Boland was the once
14 when I went to see him with my brother to open the
15 account.
16 132 Q. Yes?
17 A. And once on another occasion, I can't remember what
18 it was about and then there was another time. About
19 three or four times I went to see him.
20 133 Q. Yes?
21 A. Twice was in Trinity Street I think.
22 134 Q. Yes?
23 A. And once was in Fitzwilliam.
24 135 Q. Was it the Cement Roadstone Office?
25 A. Fitzwilliam.
26 136 Q. The Cement Roadstone offices?
27 A. Cement Roadstone's offices.
28 137 Q. Yes?
29 A. But that was for another matter.
21
1 138 Q. Yes?
2 A. It was nothing to do with this matter.
3 139 Q. I see. Perhaps, we will go on. Just pick up the
4 statement there and we will go through it?
5 A. Yes.
6 140 Q. He told you it would be deposited in a bank in the
7 Cayman Islands?
8 A. Yes.
9 141 Q. It reads:
10 "A joint deposit account was opened for

my brother and I in August 1979"?
11
12 A. Yes.
13 142 Q. You were told then the rate would be approximately
14 16.75%?
15 A. Yes.
16 143 Q. That is a very accurate figure in your statement. I
17 was wondering really how you remember that?
18 A. I am sorry?
19 144 Q. Or had you any record?
20 A. No, it is a copy. I have no records at all and I
21 got a copy from my niece.
22 145 Q. From your niece?
23 A. Yes.
24 146 Q. What is her name?
25 A. Eileen Lynam.
26 147 Q. Eileen?
27 A. Lynam.
28 14 8 Q. Lynam?
29 A. Is that her single name, yes.
22
1 149 Q. How would she have a copy of it?
2 A. Her father. Well, her father. My brother was
3 involved.
4 150 Q. Your brother?
5 A. Yes.
6 151 Q. Your brother's daughter would have been looking
7 after it?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SHIELDS: His brother.
10 A. My brother.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.
13 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is what I thought.
14 That is ... (INTERJECTION) .
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. SHIELDS: His brother's daughter.
18 MR. SHIELDS: His brother's daughter.
19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is what I thought,
20 yes.
21 MR. SHIELDS: I am sorry, yes.
22 152 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. James Lynam?
23 A. James Lynam.
24 153 Q. Is that right?
26 154 Q. Yes?
27 A. That is it.
28 155 Q. James was a...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. He was a partner with me.
23
1 156 Q. A partner with you?
2 A. Yes.
3 157 Q. He was in the joint account with you?
4 A. Yes.
5 158 Q. His daughter was looking after them then, was she?
6 A. Well, I have only got these lately.
7 159 Q. Only lately?
8 A. I only got these lately.
9 160 Q. Anyway we can make further enquiries about that?
10 A. Yes.
11 161 Q. If we just move on then. The money remained in that
12 account without any further lodgements or
13 withdrawals until 1987?
14 A. Yes.
15 162 Q. It would appear that the joint account was split?
16 A. Yes.
17 163 Q. Again, did you get that from your niece, that
18 information?
19 A. No, I got that from the letter. I remember seeing a
20 letter from Traynor about that.
21 164 Q. Yes?
22 A. In this.
23 165 Q. I think it is one of the ones that you gave us where
24 it says ... (INTERJECTION)?
25 A. Yes, then it is there, yes.
26 166 Q. The split was effective. They just announced the
27 split of the account, is that right?
28 A. Yes.
29 167 Q. Between your brother and yourself?
24
1 A. Yes.
2 168 Q. Then you say that you had made no further lodgements
3 to your account following the division of the joint
4 deposit?
5 A. Yes, I didn't.
6 169 Q. Did you know that you could draw monies on this
7 account?
8 A. Well, I knew I could draw money any time I wanted.
9 170 Q. And you did, did you not?
10 A. No.
11 171 Q. I will come to that in a moment but I think your
12 recollection is not correct there. Did you not
13 transfer money to the Isle of Man?
14 A. Not at that -- what time are you talking about?
15 172 Q. I will come to that in a moment if you do not
16 recollect it?
17 A. Yes.
18 173 Q. I will show you the documents. You go on to say,
19 "I should mention that occasionally I

received telephone calls from
20 Mr. Des Traynor..."?
21
22 A. Yes.
23 174 Q.
"...and Ms. Joan Williams who informed
24 me of the balance..."
25
26 You have told me that?
27 A. Yes.
28 175 Q. In March 1995 you instructed Mr. Padraig Collery to
29 close your account?
25
1 A. Yes.
2 176 Q. Just in relation to the use you made of the account,
3 I have to ask you to look at certain letters, which
4 were internal letters from IIB, internal letters in
5 IIB. It is page 24. Have you got that?
6 MS. CUMMINS: Page 24, Judge, is it.
7 177 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Page 25. Do you see in
8 this letter (Exhibit 2)?
9 A. Yes.
10 178 Q. This is a letter from Mr. Traynor to
11 The Irish Intercontinental Bank and it is:
12 "Could you please arrange the transfer

of Stg£15,000.00 to Ulster Bank Isle
13 of Man Limited for credit to the
Account of Edward P. Lynam,
14 Account No. 601195. The cost should
be debited to our Call Account..."
15
16 And it gives the "Ansbacher" call account. That was
17 a transfer of money that you asked for to
18 the Isle of Man?
19 A. Where did I ask for it? I never asked for it. I
20 don't know anything about The Intercontinental Bank.
21 179 Q. Sorry?
22 A. I don't know anything about The Intercontinental
23 Bank. I never heard of it. Well, I heard of it
24 somewhere but...(INTERJECTION).
25 180 Q. Did you not ask Mr. Traynor to transfer?
26 A. No.
27 181 Q. Stg£15,000?
28 A. No.
29 182 Q. Had you an account in The Ulster Bank?
26
1 A. In 0'Connell Street.
2 183 Q. Had you got an account in the Isle of Man?
3 A. I beg your pardon?
4 184 Q. In the Isle of Man?
5 A. No. Could I talk to my solicitor?
6 185 Q. Yes, yes. (Short Discussion) Perhaps, I will put
7 it another way to you, Mr. Lynam. This letter,
8 obviously you never saw this letter before. It is
9 letter that is written by Mr. Traynor to The
10 Irish Intercontinental Bank (Exhibit 2)?
11 A. Yes .
12 186 Q. You might not have known that the "Ansbacher"
13 account was in The Irish Intercontinental Bank, is
14 that correct? You did not know where the
15 "Ansbacher" account was?
16 A. No, I knew -- I never -- I didn't know anything
17 about The Intercontinental Bank.
18 187 Q. However, what I am suggesting to you is that from
19 time to time you drew money. You went to
20 Mr. Traynor and asked him for money?
21 A. No, never did, never ever.
22 188 Q. Did you leave the money in Cayman from 197 9 and
23 never touched it?
24 A. Yes .
25 189 Q. You never touched it?
26 A. That is right. It is exactly as it says in the
27 letter.
28 190 Q. Pardon?
29 A. It is exactly as in my statement.
27
1 191 Q. I just want to see if your recollection
2 is...(INTERJECTION)?
3 MR. SHIELDS: Can we keep copies of
4 these?
5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Of course, of course.
6 MR. SHIELDS: You will give us a copy?
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, of course.
8 MR. SHIELDS: Yes.
9 192 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you would just look
10 there is another letter?
11 A. Yes.
12 193 Q. On the 5th June 1991 (Exhibit 3) (Same Handed)?
13 A. Yes.
14 194 Q. This is a transfer of another sum to the Isle of
15 Man?
16 A. That is nothing to do with me.
17 195 Q. I wonder... (INTERJECTION)?
18 A. It is not. It is definitely not me.
19 196 Q. You had an account in The Ulster Bank?
20 A. Yes.
21 197 Q. In Dublin, was it?
22 A. Yes, O'Connell Street.
23 198 Q. Do you see this gives the account of Edward P. Lynam
24 and account number 601195. Again, it actually gives
25 the account number?
26 A. I know but I never got those. I never got -- whose
27 is that to? I have never got money from "Ansbacher"
28 account. I don't know. It is foreign. It is
29 completely foreign.
28
1 199 Q. You see there was another withdrawal in
2 September 1991. It is a letter from Joan Williams
3 to IIB relating to a transfer (Exhibit 4)?
4 A. Not me, no. Definitely not me. Definitely not me.
5 200 Q. These are -- this is the account of Edward P. Lynam.
6 Are you Edward P. Lynam?
7 A. That is right.
8 201 Q. Yes?
9 A. I wonder is that me? I don't know what my
10 Ulster Bank number is here. I have no cheque book
11 with me but it gives a number and all. No, it is
12 definitely -- I never got money -- "to the
13 account"...(INTERJECTION).
14 202 Q. I think the explanation may be Mr. Lynam, if you see
15 on the letter of the 5th March 1991 (Exhibit 3)?
16 A. Yes.
17 203 Q. It says,
18 "to..."
19
20 And then,
21 "...West London..."
22
23 MS. MACKEY: Nat West.
24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry,
25 "...Nat West..."
26
27 And then,
28 "...A/C Ulster Bank Belfast..."
29
29
1 And then,
2 "...A/C Ulster Bank Isle of Man"?
4 A. Sure I know nothing about that, nothing at all.
5 Sure the information...(INTERJECTION).
6 204 Q. Perhaps, you could make enquiries in The Ulster
7 Bank, could you?
8 A. Yes.
9 205 Q. Could you make enquires in The Ulster Bank?
10 A. Yes, yes, certainly.
11 206 Q. You could make enquiries in the Ulster Bank, Isle of
12 Man Limited, about this account number too, could
13 you?
14 A. Which one is that?
15 MR. SHIELDS: That is the one the Judge,
16 the Inspector, is asking
17 you about. This account (INDICATING).
18 A. I don't -- am I getting this right? They are asking
19 -- what are they asking?
20 MR. SHIELDS: I am sorry Judge I think,
21 just to clarify the
22 position, I know you are asking the witness.
24 MR. SHIELDS: However, I think just to
25 clarify the position,
26 while it is not entirely within the ambit of the
27 Inspectors other than that the money goes, he did
28 have an account, as I understand it. Now, what date
29 it was opened on I don't know, in the Isle of Man.
30
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, sorry,
2 Mr. Shields, you cannot
3 give the evidence.
4 MR. SHIELDS: Yes. No, I can't. No, I
5 am just clarifying it and
6 then maybe you can ask Mr. Lynam again because his
7 recollection is not perhaps clear.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Now it
9 appears...(INTERJECTION).
10 MR. SHIELDS: He had an account at one
11 stage in the Isle of Man,
12 okay.
13 207 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It appears that you must
14 have instructed your
15 solicitors that you had an account in the
16 Isle of Man and that you are mistaken, your memory
17 is mistaken?
18 A. No.
19 208 Q. Did you not make enquires about it?
20 A. No, I didn't instruct anybody.
21 MR. SHIELDS: However, he did not give
22 any instructions. I mean
23 this is ... (INTERJECTION) .
24 A. No, this is foreign to me. I know nothing about
25 that at all.
26 209 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well. I take it then
27 that you
28 will...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. It could be a mistake.
31
1 210 Q. Discuss these questions with your solicitor at the
2 end of this and if it is necessary you will clarify
3 the matter?
4 A. Yes.
5 211 Q. In the light of what your solicitor said?
6 A. Yes, I certainly will.
7 212 Q. I want to refer you to another letter of the
8 27th February 1995 (Exhibit 5)(Same Handed)?
9 A. Yes.
10 213 Q. This is from Mr. Collery and it is to The
11 Intercontinental Bank:
12 "I should be grateful if you would

please transfer the sum of £581,000.00
13 to the Ulster Bank (Isle of Man)
Limited for the account of..."
14
15 And it is the same numbered account.
16 "This transfer should be debited..."
17
18 And then to the account number?
19 A. Could I ... (INTERJECTION) .
20 214 Q. No, sorry. I just want you to try to recollect.
21 Can you recollect? You told us in your statement
22 that you closed the account?
23 A. Yes.
24 215 Q. This seems to be the closing of the account?
25 A. Yes.
26 216 Q. £581,000.00?
27 A. Yes.
28 217 Q. Does it not look like Mr. Collery transferred that
29 to your account in the Isle of Man?
32
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 218 Q. It does?
3 A. But the other is foreign to me completely...
4 219 Q. Then this is not foreign to you?
5 A. No, no, that one is not.
6 220 Q. You had an account in the Isle of Man in 1995?
7 A. Yes.
8 221 Q. Yes?
9 A. But it was only opened somewhere around that -- no,
10 just before that.
11 222 Q. You can check this out but I think your recollection
12 is faulty, Mr. Lynam. It looks as if you had,
13 because it is the same numbered account in this
14 letter as in the earlier letters in 1991?
15 A. Well, the first I have heard of it is all here now.
16 I know about the £581,000.
17 223 Q. Yes?
18 A. But I don't remember the other one.
19 224 Q. Yes?
20 A. I know nothing about the other one.
21 225 Q. Mr. Lynam, you were told from time to time that this
22 money was earning interest and you were told the
23 interest it was earning?
24 A. Which money?
25 226 Q. The money that you were giving to Mr. Traynor?
26 A. Yes.
27 227 Q. Did you in your statements to the Revenue and your
28 tax liabilities did you include these interests?
29 A. No.
33
2 A. No.
3 229 Q. That is all I want to ask you, Mr. Lynam?
4 A. Yes.
5 230 Q. Mr. Lynam, we could stop now for a cup of coffee if
6 that would be suitable for you?
7 A. Yes.
8 231 Q. We will resume then in about ten minute's time?
9 A. Yes, no problem.
10 232 Q. And we will not hold you very long?
11 A. Yes.
12
14
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Lynam, we will
16 resume. I have no further
17 questions.
18
19 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. LYNAM BY MR. JUSTICE
20 COSTELLO
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
34
1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: However, Ms. Mackey
2 would like you to ask you
3 some questions.
4 A. Yes.
6 MR. LYNAM WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY
8 233 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just a few very brief
9 questions, Mr. Lynam?
10 A. Yes.
11 234 Q. First of all you mentioned to us earlier that you
12 received statements from time to time from
13 Ms. Joan Williams?
14 A. Yes.
15 235 Q. In her office, in Mr. Traynor's office?
16 A. I did.
17 236 Q. Which of the offices was that?
18 A. It was in Trinity Street, on the side
19 of...(INTERJECTION).
20 237 Q. You went into Joan Williams in Trinity Street?
21 A. No, you see, no. Joan Williams would ring me every
22 -- I think every three months or something.
23 238 Q. Yes?
24 A. And it would be, "Mr. Lynam, the interest is so much
25 this month," and I would say, "You can renew it."
26 239 Q. Yes?
27 A. And maybe a week or two afterwards she would send me
28 a note. Sometimes but then sometimes she didn't.
29 240 Q. She would send it to you in the post?
35
1 A. Yes.
2 241 Q. Yes. However, did you ever go in to see
3 Ms. Williams?
4 A. No, I never went to go to see her no.
5 242 Q. Right?
6 A. But I went in there. The only time I saw her was
7 when Traynor was there.
8 243 Q. Yes?
9 A. Yes.
10 244 Q. You told us about those?
11 A. Yes.
12 245 Q. You were telling us there also that your niece,
13 Eileen Lynam, gave you some documents?
14 A. Yes.
15 24 6 Q. From which you were able to prepare your statement
16 today?
17 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).
18 247 Q. Could you ask her Ms. Lynam if she has some more?
19 A. No, I asked her to give us I asked her to ask her
20 father.
21 248 Q. Yes?
22 A. He is very sick.
23 249 Q. Yes?
24 A. "Had he any documents in relation to the account
25 because I hadn't got any?"
26 250 Q. Yes?
27 A. Because he used to keep everything.
28 251 Q. Yes?
29 A. But she said that she would get some for me and the
36
1 next thing her brother brought in this thing to me.
2 It just gave me details of that.
3 252 Q. Yes?
4 A. That is all.
5 253 Q. Yes?
6 A. It only related to me.
7 254 Q. Yes?
8 A. What we started with and things like that.
9 255 Q. Would you ask her Mr. Lynam if she has a copy of the
10 letter of wishes that is referred to in this letter?
11 A. Yes.
12 256 Q. Would you ask her that?
13 A. Yes.
14 257 Q. And ask her if she has a copy of The Trust Deed?
15 A. Yes.
16 258 Q. Would you mind?
17 A. Yes.
18 259 Q. Thank you very much. The other thing I wanted to
19 ask you, is your brother still living, is he?
20 A. Yes.
21 260 Q. Yes. Is he in good health?
22 A. No.
23 261 Q. Is he not?
24 A. No, not in good health at all.
25 262 Q. Yes?
26 A. Pretty bad.
27 263 Q. Is he?
28 A. Yes.
29 264 Q. Could you give us his address?
37
1 A. La Vista Avenue, Sutton. 18 La Vista Avenue,
2 Sutton.
3 265 Q. 18?
4 A. La Vista Avenue, Sutton.
5 266 Q. La Vista Avenue, Sutton?
6 A. Sutton. I think it is 18 he is in.
7 267 Q. Okay.
8 A. James Lynam.
9 268 Q. That is Dublin 13?
10 A. I don't know. I am not too sure.
11 269 Q. I think so. Okay. That is all the questions I have
12 for you. Thanks, Mr. Lynam.
13
14 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. LYNAM BY MS. MACKEY
15
16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I think that is everything
17 Mr. Lynam. Your statement
18 today will be transcribed and we would ask you to
19 come in to sign the transcript of evidence. If you
20 want a copy of the transcript we can supply it to
21 you.
22 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You have to pay for it
24 unfortunately according to
25 the rules but we can supply it to you.
26 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We would be glad if you
28 could get us any further
29 information now that we have raised with you.

1 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You could ask Mr. Shields
3 to send it on to us.
4 MR. LYNAM: Sure, yes. So, in other
5 words I look into the few
6 questions.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Look into these matters
8 that we have raised with
9 you.
10 MR. LYNAM: Yes.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You could, if you would
12 like to, incorporate it
13 into a further more detailed statement and send on
14 the documents to us through your solicitor, that
15 would be fine.
16 MR. LYNAM: Okay. Yes.
17 MR. SHIELDS: Sorry, there are not any
18 more letters that we
19 should be aware of?
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No.
21 MR. SHIELDS: No.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Okay.
23 MR. SHIELDS: Thank you.
24
25 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED.
26
27
28
29
39
THE EXAMINATION WAjv-jyHEN CONCLggatf.
O W e f t - "J 7 /
UNSWORN STATEMENT
OF
MR. EDDIE LYNAM
I refer to your letter of 21st December, 1999.
In approximately July, 1979,1 received a telephone call from Mr. Des Traynor. He
asked me whether I had any monies to invest. I said that I would consult with my
brother and would talk to him in due course.
My brother and I met with Mr. Des Traynor sometimelater. Mr. Des Traynor said
that the monies would be deposited in a Bank in the Cayman Islands of which he was a
director. A joint deposit account was opened for my brother and I in August, 1979.
We were told at this time that the rate of return would be approximately 16.75%.
The monies remained in that account without any further lodgements or withdrawals
by me until approximately April, 1987, when, it would appear, the joint-deposit
account was split. I do not recall any instruction from me to split the joint-deposit
account. I made no further lodgements to my account following the division of the
joint-deposit account.
I should mention that occasionally I received telephone callsfrom Mr. Des Traynor
and Ms. Joan Williams who informed me of the balance in my accountfrom time to
time.
On 6th March, 199S I instructed Mr. Padraig Collery to close my account and to
transfer the monies when the account was closed.
I note in your letter to me of 21st December, 1999, at paragraph 6 of Appendix C

thereof you refer to the Exchange Control Acts (1954-1992). I do not know whether
1477-001/EC/DK/SB/StateeLdoc
any application was m$de onraybehalf under the Exchange Control Acts (1954
1992).
Further, I have no recollection of a letter of wishes having been signed by me,

however, it is apparentfrom correspondencefrom Mr. Des Traynor (an extract of
which I enclose herewith) that I may have signed such a letter of wishes. As you have
indicated in your letter of 21st December, 1999 that you have no interest in financial
details, I have been advised by my Solicitors that it is appropriate that the portion of
this letter relating tofinancial details be blocked out.
I have written to Mr. Padraig Collery asking him to furnish to me any books and
records pertaining to my account in his possession (if same are to hand) and I am
awaiting his reply.
Dated this day of March, 2000
EDDIE LYNAM
1477-001/EC/DK/SB/Stateel.doc
niiKiMerc aaahoN CAY MA*' TRUST LIMITED
A Mambar of ttia Qulmwu Mahon Marchant Banking Group
V. R0. Box 88?
Talephona No 9-4653/4 Grand Cayman
Talax CP 305 British West Indies
Cable Addraas Guinness
3rd December, 1979.

yourraf
our rat
Messrs. Edward Lynam,

313 Navan Road,
DUBLIN 7.
Dear Sirs,
We confirm having accepted the following funds from
you:
Value: 30th November, 1979.

Amount:
For Account: Edward Lynam.
Term: 1 Month to 31/12/1979.
Rate % per annum:
Arranged through: Direct.
Interest at Maturity:
Amount Maturing:
Tours faithfully,
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LTD.
Tklcphon* No 9-4653/4 RO. Box 887
CP 308 Grand Cayman
CablaAddrass Guinnats Britiah Waat Indie*
2nd January, 1980.

yourraf
ourrtf

313 Navan Road,
DUBLIN 7.
Dear Sirs,
you:
Value: 31st December, 1979.

Amount:
Term: 1 Month to 31/1/1980.
Rate % per annum:
Amount Maturing:
Yours faithfully,
GUINNESS MAHON CAIMAN TRUST LTD
w
TWephoneNo 9-4863/4
Telex CP 305
dayman p i jst limited
A tMtow of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group
P.O. Box 887
Grand Cayman
Britiah West Indies
Cable Address Guinneaa
3rd March, 1980.

yourref
our ref

3B Navan Road,
DUBLIN 7. if
Dear Sirs,
le confirm having accepted the following funds from
you:
Value: 29th February, 1980.

Amount:
Term: 1 Month to 31st March, 1980.
Rate % per annum:
Amount Maturing:
Yours faithfully,
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED.
A Member of tha Gulnnesa Mahon Merchant Banking Group
Telephone No 9-4853/4 P.O. Box 887
Tele* CP 305 Grand Cayman
Cable Address Guinness Britiah West Indiea
2nd April, 1980.

your raf
our raf

313 Navan Road,
DUBLIN 7.
Dear Sirs,
you:
Value: 31st March, 1980.

Amount:
Term: 3 Months to 30th June, 1980.
Rate % per annum:
Amount Maturing:
Tours faithfully,
L ULu.
miWMESR mahon trust limited
A Member of the Guinnesa M»hon Merchant Banking Group
Telephone No 9-4653/4 \ , , P 0. Box 687 i j
Telex CP 4305 Grand Cayman
Cable Address Guinness British West indies
11th September, 198

your r*f
our ref

313 Havan Road,
DUBLIN 7.
Dear Sin,
We confirm having accepted the following funds from you:
Value: 31st August, 1981.
Amount:
For Account: Edward Lynam
Term: 1 month
Maturity: 30th September, 1981.

Rate % per annum:
Amount Maturing:
Yours faithfully,
, L: QLju.
119 vsrvup
P. 0 Box 887
Telephone No 9- 4653/4 » w
>
Telex CP 430S Grand Cayman
Cable Address Guinness British West Indies
1st March, 1982.

your ref
our ref

313 Navan Road,
DUBLIN 7.
Dear Sirs,
We confirm having accepted the following funds from you:
Value: 28th February, 1982.
Amount:
Term: 1 month.
Maturity:
31st March, 1982.
Rate % per annum:
Arranged through:
Direct.
Amount Maturing:
Yours faithfully,
OLu
Appendix XV (69) (l)(i)
Ttf. 79644/794834 3 TRINITY STREET, Q
\ Talac 33B67
FacskniBr. 720642 DUBLIN 2 .
STRICTLY PERSONAL 4th November, 1986.
E.P. Lynam, Esq.,

313 Navan Road,
DPBLIN 7.
Dear Eddie,
The split effective 3rd September is:
Since inception instructions have been given by you

via Joan Williams or myself. Attached hereto the
original letters of wishes from you both. I have no idea
what is included. i
" • When you have had the opportunity to consider please
ring^to advise me of the position.
Kindest regards,
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Travnor.
JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (69) (1) (j)
A Mntktr eftht lUnry AruMur UoUh*i FUC Utrtfitnt Mmk*g Orou
P.a Bos 117, Ckmad CQROM, B ritkfc Wm latin
Pleue reply to: PtmiK (Mf) MM4S3/4
42 FlttwQliun Square^ IMMC GP4MS
Dublin 1 Fuc(Mf) 949-7946
(109) 9494267
Tfel: 765144/763065
Rue: 612035
5th March, 1991

Garrett Logan, Bag.,
91 Nerrion Square,
DDBLIN 2.
Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.£15,000.00 to
Ulster Bank Isle of Han Limited.
for credit to the Account of Edward F. Lynam, Account No.601195.
The cost should be debited to our Call Account
Youra sincerely,
"Tltt^
J.P. Traynor. D/c. o&a
iSGNATU^
lrH6CK6P
JDT/AJW
J
<9
10-2.
Appendix XV (69) (l)(k)
A Mtmbtr of ih* Httvy Arubethtr Hokttngi PLC Mtrdumt Ban
.1
if Please reply to: P.O. Box 1*7, Onmd Caymu, Brittt Wot Jaditt
Phone (109) 94»4&3J/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Ttlwc CPOM
Dublin 2. Fuc (MM) 949-79*4
(1091 W-J267
Tel: 765144/763063
Fax: 612035
5th June, 1991

Garrett Loqran, Sag.,
Irish intercontinental Bank Limited
91 Marrion Square,
DOBLIM 2.
j Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.ei4,483.32 to
• Ulster Bank Isle of Man Limited.
for credit to the Account of Edtrard P. Lynam, Account No.601195.
The cost should be debited to our Call Account No.02/01087/81.
Yours sincerely,
/AJW
Z2T?
Appendix XV (69) (1) (I)
. \
A Mtmbtr of th* Htnry Ambsehtr HoiOngs PLC Mtrdmu Banking

... P.O. Box 117, OtMd Otymn, Ml* W«t bdfa*
• Pleue reply to: Pfcow: (109) 94W6J3/4
42 FitzwfllUm Square, Ttta CP43M
Dublin Z Bms (109) MM946
(809) 949-3267
Tfel: 765144/763065
F)u: 612035
5th September, 1991

Garrett Logan, Bsq.,
91 Merxion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg,^12,709.85 to
Ulster Bank xsl« of Han Liraiti
for credit to the Account of Edward P. Li tarn, Account No.601195.
The cost should be debited to our Call < boouat No. 02/01087/81 .•
Yours sinoerely,
For AM8BACHBR LIMITED
/AJW
2 g
T
Appendix XV (69) (l)(m)
REVISED UNSWORN STATEMENT OF
EDDIE LYNAM
I, Eddie Lynam, make this statement supplemental to my unsworn Statement of 23rd

March, 2000.
I should mention that I was asked on 23rd March, 2000 by the Honourable Mr. Justice
Costello to ascertain whether I had any further documentation, including any trust
documentation or letters of wishes.
When I met with the Inspectors on 23rd March, 2000 I furnished to them all
documentation which was within my possession, power or procurement at that time.
Subsequent to my meeting with the Inspectors, I carried out a further search of my
house (having previously carried out thorough searches at my home) and I uncovered
further documentation that I had not been aware of prior to the meeting.
I enclose further copy bank statementsfrom Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited. As you

previously indicated to me by letter dated 23rd December, 1999 that you have no
interest infinancial details, I have accordingly been advised by my Solicitors that it is
appropriate for me to delete such details. I have also uncovered two letters of wishes,
one dated 3rd September, 1981, the other dated 5th March, 1987.
In February, 19941 instructed Mr Des Traynor to transfer my account into the names
of my son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Mary Lynam, for convenience purposes
only. My children were aware that the beneficial interest in the monies would remain
with me.
I also enclose herewith further correspondence received by me from Mr Padraig

Collery, Ms Joan Williams and Mr Des Traynor which I discovered as a result of my
recent search. It would also appearfrom the documentation enclosed herewith that on
certain occasions where Mr Des Traynor was unable to contact me (to receive
instructions), the deposit was "rolled over", by Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited, on his
instructions.
I can now also confirm that the joint-account which I held with my brother was split
in approximately March, 1987. This is evidenced by a letter from Mr Des Traynor.
On 23rd March, 2000 I was under the mistaken belief that at no stage did I transfer
any funds to an account in the Isle of Man. It would appearfrom the documentation
enclosed herewith (that I have recently discovered) that monies were transferred to
Ulster Bank, Isle of Man, by Mr Des Traynor, on my instructions. I apologise for any
confusion that might have been caused in this regard. Without the benefit of this
information I would not have been in a position to confirm that I gave these
instructions to Mr. Des Traynor. I still have no recollection of giving these
instructions to Mr. Des Traynor.
As you are aware, I wrote to Mr Padraig Collery asking him to furnish to me any
documentation that he might have had in relation to my account. I also wrote to
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited and Mr. Cathal Mac Carthy of Guinness Mahon
(Ireland) Limited. I have not received a replyfrom any of these parties.
Mr Eddie Lynam
(1477/001 EC/DOCS/STATE2.DOC)
Appendix XV (69) (l)(n)
DBMBi SOLICITORS
39/40 UPPER MOUNT STRICT

DUBLIN 2, IRELAND.
TELEPHONE: 353+1 Ml 0M«

FACSIMILE: 393+1 Ml 0SS3
Ms. Mary Cummins, D.D.B. BOX NO: 123
Solicitor to the Inspectors,
E-MAIL: e m a l M l k i h t « l d ( . t c
WEBSITE: h t t p : / / w w w . l k s h i e l d s . i e
3rd Floor, oueref, 1477-001/LKS/EC/010611L2
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin YOUR REF: C/L06/MLC/mf
22nd June, 2001
Re: Oar Client: Edward P. Lynam
Dear Ms. Cummins,
We refer to your letter of 12*h inst.

jmm m
Our client instructs us to respond to your letter as follows:-
Regarding paragraphs 1 and 2
As you are aware, our client instructed Mr Desmond Traynor to transfer his account held with Ansbacher
(Cayman) Limited ("Ansbacher") to the names of his son and daughter, Bryan Lynam and Mary Lynam.
Our client gave this instruction to Mr Traynor for convenience purposes only (our client retaining the
beneficial interest in the monies), however, our client is not sure whether he communicated this specific
fact to Mr Traynor. Our client instructs us that after receiving Mr Traynor's reply of 7 ^ March, 1994,
our client received no further correspondencefrom Mr Traynor or Mr Collery to the best of his
knowledge and that any other correspondence relating to this account was sent to Ms Mary Lynam.
Our client understands that Ms. Mary Lynam and Mr Bryan Lynam wrote to Mr Collery by letter dated
22nd February, 1995 on our client's instructions and instructed him to transfer the funds held with
Ansbacher to an account in Ulster Bank (Isle of Man) Limited. This letter also sought confirmation that
the account with Ansbacher had been closed.
Regarding Paragraph 3
As previously advised, our client instructs us that to the best of his knowledge no lodgments were made
to the account held by him with Ansbacher after the initial lodgment. The correspondence referred to in
your letter under reply refers to the bank account being "rolled over" on a periodic basis.
We trust this letter clarifies your queries.
Yours taithflilly.
L K SHIELDS. SOLICITORS.
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Appendix XV (71) Mr James Lynam, deceased
James Lynam.
a) Unsworn statement of Mr James Lynam of 10 November 2000.
b) Letter of 3 December 1979 - GMCT to Edward and James Lynam.
c) Letter of 2 January 1980 - GMCT to Edward and James Lynam.
d) Calculation of interest on A/A5A a/c from 1 April 1997 to 30 June 1997.

UNSWORN STATEMENT OF Mr. James Lynam
Prepared for the Inspectors Appointed by Order of the High Court to Ansbacher
(Cayman) Ltd
I have been involved in a property company known as E & J Lynam Properties Ltd
for very many years. The Company started about 55 years ago and has been building
properties in and around the Dublin Area ever since.. I was familiar with Des Traynor
as he audited the company accounts for many years; At that time he was with the
.firm Haughey Bo land Accountants.
In or about 1979 during a discussion with Mr. Traynor he said that if I wished to
invest money he could arrange for this and I would get a better rate of interest. The
initial conversation was relatively short. I do hot remember it in detail however he
did say that the monies , would be invested in the Cayman Islands. From my records I
think this conversation and my initial investment, which occurred with my brother
EtcX^jcm-A -Jatfies, nannen*d in or about 1979.
I brlir/e the rv-nies vers lodged with IU Za. s&uic of Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Ltd. I never heard of this Bank before.
I do not know if I ever signed a letter of wishes or a Deed of Trust There is a

reference in some of my papers to a Letter of Wishes however I do not have a copy of
same.
I had very little contact with Des Traynor in relation to this deposit This is largely
because there were no additions or .withdrawals from the account until circa 1990. I
f0* think it was around this time also that the account which I held jointly with my
brother was split into two separate accounts.
I received letters from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd setting out balances and
interest accrued and I have enclosed copies of those which I have retained. I also
received letters from Des Traynor directly from his address at 42 Fitzwilliam Square.
However I had little or no direct contact with him. In 1985 I developed kidney
failure and suffered ill health until I had a successful kidney transplant in May 1989.
In reality up to this time the money merely sat in the account and I took very little
interest in it.
After my transplant I took more interest in the account and had some contact with Des
Traynor at 42 Fitzwilliam Square. My practice was to telephone his office and talk
with Ms. Williams to advise the particular amount I wished to withdraw and some
days later I would call to the office and collect the amount in cash. In this period I
held some monies in a call deposit account and other monies in a fixed deposit
account. I continued to receive letters from Mr. Traynor during the period
confirming the up to date posnicr..
In or about 1994 Mr. Traynor told me about Mr. John Furze and a Mr. Padraig
Collery and said that if I had any queries Mr. Collery would handle them on my
behalf if he (Mr. Traynor) was not available. After Mr. Traynor's death I either made
. contact with or was contacted by Mr. Collery. If I wanted to withdraw monies after
Mr. Traynor's death I would contact Mr. Collery by phone and collect it in the usual
• way. Occasionally Mr. Collery would deliver the amount to my house in Sutton.
In June 1995 I divided the money into three accounts yvhich the documentation shows
were numbered A/A5-A, A/A5-D, A/A5-G. The purpose of this was to provide three
separate funds on which I and my two daughters Eileen and Mary could draw. They
have dealt directly with Mr. Collery since that time.
Eventually thetiireeaccounts were closed in late 1997.
In relation to the .questions raised in Appendix C the following are my replies, to the
best of my knowledge: . ..
1. (a) There was no Trust
(b) Moniesfirst transferred in 1979 .
(c) None
(d) onwards
(e) Not relevant
(f) I have no copy of a letter of wishes although it appears from my
records that one was signed
(g) No Trustees involved. I dealt directly with Mr. Traynor and Mr.
Collery.
2. . I did not avail of this service
3.-7. Not relevant
8. None.
Appendix XV (71) (l)(b)
A Member of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group
Telephone No 9-4653/4 P.O.Box 887
Telex . CP 305 Grand Cayman
Cable Address Guinness British West Indies
your ref
3rd December, 1979.
our ref
Messrs. Edward & James Lynam,

313 Navan Road,
DUBLIN 7.
Q .
Dear Sirs,
you:
Value: 30th November, 1979.

Amount: £322,299.17
For Account: Edward and James Lynam.
Term: 1 Month to 31/12/1979.
Rate % -per— annum:. 16|%.
Interest at Maturity: £4,482.39
Amount Maturing: £326,781.56
Yours faithfully,
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN" TRUST LIT).
Appendix XV (71) (l)(c)
T
A Member of (he Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group
Telephone No 9—46S3/4 RO. Box 887
Telex CP 305 Grand Cayman
Cable Address Guinness British West indies
" 2nd January, 1980.

your ref
our ref
Messrs. Edward & James Lynam,

^ 313 Navan Road,
DUBLIN 7.
."•••&S
Dear Sirs,
you:
Value: • 31st December, 1979.

Amount: £326,781.56
For Account: Edward and James Lynam.
r
Term: 1 Month to 31/1/1980.
Rate % per annum:
Interest at Maturity: £4,648.80
Amount Maturing: £331,430.36
Yours faithfully,
/ A'/!
AJA5A
1/4/97 Opening Balance

91,003-56
Drawn
11,003-56
80,000-00
30/6/97. Interest 1/4 - 30/6 @ 5.5%
1,084-93
81,084-93 -r
w
• / . -
M
Appendix XV (72) Ms Mary Lynam
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Ms
Mary Lynam.
a) Transcript of evidence of Ms Mary Lynam dated 30 November 2000.
b) Unsworn statement of Mr James Lynam of 10 November 2000.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Mary Lynam.
a) Letter of 7 December 2001 - Sheehan & Company Solicitors to the

Inspectors.
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MS. MARY LYNAM
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MS. M. LYNAM

Represented by: MR. J. SHEEHAN
SHEEHAN & CO
1 INTERVIEW WITH MS. MARY LYNAM COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS
2 ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000:
4 MS. MACKEY: Ms. Lynam, this will only
5 take a few moments.
6 Mr. Sheehan probably explained to you what we want.
7 We are going to take your evidence under oath.
8 Ms. Cummins will now administer the oath to you.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
3
1 MS. MARY LYNAM, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS INTERVIEWED
2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY:
4 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Ms. Lynam, just to clear
5 up some matters that arose
6 as a result of a statement that your father sent in.
7 To explain to you as we explained to your sister --
8 this isn't a Tribunal or a court, it is simply an
9 interview, an information gathering exercise. If at
10 any stage you want to ask Mr. Sheehan anything or
11 get advice from him, tell us and we will stop.
12 Likewise he knows that he can do the same if he
13 wants to advise you. Perhaps we could give
14 Ms. Lynam a copy of her father's statement to refer
15 to it. Are you familiar with this statement that
16 was prepared (EXHIBIT 1)?
17 A. Yes, I am.
18 2 Q. If you would just look at the very last page of it.
19 You will see on the second paragraph that your
20 father describes the dividing of the account in 1995
21 into three separate accounts, one of which was
22 A/A5-A related to himself, A/A5-G related to your
23 sister and A/A5-D which appears to be related to
24 you?
25 A. Yes.
26 3 Q. At the time that happened did your father explain to
27 you what he was doing. I am only asking you about
28 A/A5-D?
29 A. I think it was after he had split it, then he told
4
1 us what he had done. He explained that he had this
2 money and it was in an account.
3 4 Q. Did he tell you where it was?
4 A. I think he would have said that it was in the
5 Caymans. I think that is where. I am not 100% sure
6 about where. I certainly knew it wasn't in Dublin.
7 5 Q. Did he tell you why he was doing this, dividing it
8 up?
9 A. His health; he wasn't very well. I think he was
10 afraid that he would die and the money would be
11 lost. He wanted us to know about it. Then he
12 introduced us and explained about splitting the
13 account. He then introduced us to Padraig Collery.
14 6 Q. Was that the occasion when Padraig Collery came out
15 to your father's house?
16 A. Yes .
17 7 Q. You and your sister were there?
18 A. Yes .
19 8 Q. Were you present at that meeting?
20 A. Yes. Padraig was introduced to us.
21 9 Q. Did he himself explain anything to you,
22 Padraig Collery, about how this worked?
23 A. No, I don't remember him saying very much at all.
24 I think my father had explained to us the money that
25 he would draw. He then suggested that we would draw
26 from the account.
27 10 Q. An account specific to yourself?
28 A. Yes .
29 11 Q. Did you know that there was an account specifically

1 for you that you could draw from?
2 A. Yes, I think I did.
3 12 Q. Did you know -- I am not asking you for figures --
4 how much was in that account?
5 A. Yes, he would have told us.
6 13 Q. You knew what was there available for you?
7 A. Yes .
8 14 Q. After that date did you in fact draw on that account
9 at all?
10 A. We would have, yes.
11 15 Q. Just you yourself?
12 A. What would happen is that my father would explain to
13 us how he used to draw it and he expected us to do
14 the same. I think fairly much the same amounts
15 were getting withdrawn and Eileen and I had some of
16 it.
17 16 Q. I am not quite clear about this. It wouldn't be a
18 case that you would decide you needed money for
19 something and withdraw it as you would draw it from
20 a bank account here in Dublin. Is that the way it
21 worked?
22 A. No, we would have drawn what he had been drawing.
23 17 Q. He had been drawing regular sums?
24 A. Yes .
25 18 Q. For you and your sister?
26 A. Over the years he would have given us bits and
27 pieces, not very regularly. But then he started
28 giving us money a little bit more regularly after I
29 had separated. In 1995 he said that he would draw

1 the interest every three months or every
2 four months.
3 19 Q. Effectively what happened was that at the end of the
4 three-month period while this was on fixed deposit
5 you would effectively draw off the interest?
6 A. Yes. Sometimes he would then suggest that he would
7 want to draw more. He would say 'We will draw more'
8 or sometimes if Eileen or I had a particular event
9 we would say 'Can we draw more?'
10 20 Q. It was never a question that you as such said
11 'Now I need some money, I should get some.'
12 You just did this automatically at the end of the
13 three-month period?
14 A. Yes, we followed my father's system.
15 21 Q. In fact did you initiate a withdrawal ever?
16 A. Without speaking to my father first or without
17 informing my father?
18 22 Q. Or even just you deciding you wanted it and then
19 informing your father that you were doing it?
20 A. I couldn't honestly say because it was coming in a
21 set pattern. Whether I would have said 'Can I take
22 some more' or should I, I probably might have done.
23 I probably would have if there was something I
24 needed.
25 23 Q. Some necessity that arose?
26 A. Something that was coming up.
27 24 Q. In the event that you wanted to do something like
28 that, would you contact Padraig Collery?
29 A. No, Eileen usually did it. Maybe I telephoned him

1 once.
2 25 Q. She was the contact person for Padraig Collery?
3 A. Because she was the older sister.
4 26 Q. That is the way it was done. Basically she did it
5 for all three of you?
6 A. Yes, she did.
7 27 Q. When it came to the closing of the account in 1997
8 did you have any part in dealing with the closing
9 down of the account?
10 A. At that stage my father was sicker. I think he
11 wouldn't have been out of the house very often at
12 that stage. I took whatever advice was available
13 and we said that the best thing to do would be to
14 close it, so we did.
15 28 Q. When you say advice was available, what advice would
16 you have got at that stage?
17 A. From Padraig Collery.
18 29 Q. When the accounts were closed down I understand from
19 your sister that they were moved temporarily
20 somewhere else?
21 A. Yes .
22 30 Q. Two of them were amalgamated, namely yours and your
23 father's?
24 A. Yes .
25 31 Q. How or why did that arise?
26 A. Because my father was ill and he couldn't travel.
27 He was put into a situation that the money was being
28 moved. He would have had no access to it except
29 through one of us. And to open up the account.

1 I think it was just because he wouldn't have any
2 access to the money at all unless it was put in my
3 name.
4 32 Q. So it was put in your name?
5 A. Yes .
6 33 Q. The two accounts at that stage then were in your
7 name and your sister's name?
8 A. Yes, they would have been. They weren't in our
9 names, they were in company names.
10 34 Q. I had understood that from your sister. No doubt
11 there was a signatory who could deal with the
12 accounts in the companies names. Would that have
13 been you and your sister in respect to the two
14 accounts?
15 A. Yes. The accounts were put into company names.
16 It was then explained how we could access these
17 accounts. When you said did I ever sign anything,
18 it would have been the letter if we had sent one in
19 arranging for some funds.
20 35 Q. You and your sister basically could deal with these
21 accounts on behalf of your father?
22 A. Yes .
23 36 Q. Finally the other question I want to ask you is --
24 during the period that they were on deposit, these
25 three separate accounts both in Cayman and
26 subsequently in this temporary offshore location,
27 did you in respect of A/A5-D return to the
28 Revenue Commissioners the interest that was accruing
29 on your account?
1 A. No, I haven't.
2 37 Q. That is all I want to ask you. For the record can I
3 have a brief background of your career. Do you work
4 at the moment?
5 A. No, I don't, not at the moment. After a few years
6 working in secretarial and accounts work I went into
7 the family building company. I worked there until
8 about three or four years ago.
9 38 Q. You were in E & J Lynam Properties Limited?
10 A. Yes.
11 39 Q. You are not working now?
12 A. No, I am not.
13 40 Q. Thank you very much, Ms. Lynam. We haven't any
14 other questions to ask you. Thank you for doing
15 this today. It saves us writing to you and asking
16 you to come back another day.
17
18 END OF INTERVIEW OF MS. MARY LYNAM
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
10
(Cayman) Ltd
I have been involved in a property company known asE&S Lynam Properties Ltd
properties in and around the Dublin Area ever since. I was familiar with Des Traynor
as he audited the company accounts for many years. At that time he was with the
firm HaugheyBoland Accountants.
invest money he could arrangefor this and I would get a better rate of interest The
initial conversation was relatively short. I do not remember it in detail however he
did say (hat the monies would be invested in the Cayman Islands. From my records I
•James, happen^ in or about 1979.
I Li.Hi.ve the z^cîes Woiw lodged with jj«ui&. ior tuc Uaiue of Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Ltd I never heard of this Bank before.
I do not know if I ever signed a letter of wishes or a Deed of Trust There is a

same.
I had very little contact with Des Traynor in relation to this deposit This is largely
because there were no additions or withdrawals from the account until circa 1990. I
think it was around this time also that the account which I held jointly with my
I received lettersfrom Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd setting out balances and
received lettersfrom Des Traynor directlyfrom his address at 42 Fitzwilliam Square.
interest in it
held some monies in a call deposit account and other monies in a fixed deposit
confirming the up to date position.
contact with or was contacted by Mr. Collery. If I wanted to withdraw monies after
way. Occasionally Mr. Collery would deliver the amount to my house in Sutton.
In June 19951 dividedtitlemoney into three accounts which the documentation shows
were numbered A/A5-A, A/A5-D, A/A5-G. The purpose of this was to provide three
separate funds on which I and my two daughters Eileen and Maxy could draw. They
have dealt directly with Mr. Colleiy since that time.
Eventually the three accounts wore closed in late 1997.
In relation to the .questions raised in Appendix C the following are myreplies,to the
best of my knowledge:
1. (a) There was no Trust

(b) Moniesfirst transferred in 1979
(c) None
(d) i , '.'0 onwards
(a) relevant
(f) I have no copy of a letter of wishes although it appears from my
records that one was signed
Collery.
2. I did not avail of this service
3.-7. Not relevant
8. None.
Sheehan & Company
S O L I C I T O R S
I CLARE STREET D U B L I N 2. T E L E P H O N E (II 6616922

T E L E F A X (II 6 6 I 0 0 I .V D . D . E . I <i X
th
JPS/DC/L367 C/L08/NSPM 7rth December 2001
Inspectors appointed by Order of the High Court

To Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd
3rdr d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
FAX: 283 3929
RE: Our Client: Ms. Mary Lynam
Dear Sirs,
We acknoAvledge receipt of your letter dated 16th November 2001 in relation to our above
named client.
Our client disagrees with the preliminary conclusion of the Inspectors that she was a
client of Ansbacher on the grounds that she never considered herself to be the true
beneficial owner of the funds in any particular account of that Institution.
Yours faithfullv
SHEEHAN & CO.
JEREMIAH S H E K H A N B.A. DAVID C . COLBERT B.A.. LL.B.

Ci R A I N N E AHERN B.C.L.. MEL FERGUSON B.Sc. D.L.S.. DOLORES O'KEEFFE B.C.L..
GERARD CLEARY B.A. Dip I.S.. CHRIS VAN DER LEE LL.B. ( 1.11 n d 11 n I
CONSULTANT CiARRETT SHEEHAN B.C.L. LL.B.
r
Appendix XV (73) Ms Hedli MacNeice, deceased
Hedli MacNeice.
a) Guinness and Mahon loan decision memo of 31 May 1978.
b) Telex of 11 January 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT and telex of

12 January 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
c) Telex of 12 January 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
d) Letter of 15 February 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.
e) Guinness and Mahon statement re GMCT of 17 January 1979.

LOAN .DECISION M i-J_M U ^
REFERENCE: ; MINUTE NUMBER: DATE:
\AME O F APPLICANT: ^g* ^ c A/«-uc*

jnuaQp |f
^ MOUNT: 5 C? V
y
PURPOSE:
W R M & SOURCE O F REPAYMENTS: - /-^MW

-•••CiS
RATE: 517.
C O M M I T M E N T FEE:
DRAWDOWN: Ctw.
... . » • . •. • • . . .
SECURITY
REVIEW DATE: . '
O T H E R R E L E V A N T C O M M E N T S FOR
INCORPORATION IN DECISION MEMO': M V .
(Continued Overleaf)
AUTHORISED
.J
1 T\ n.c-^,..,-,!,^,,^ , Rnvicw Date Di?.ris«d
305GUINNESS CP
5205 "MARS El
TC# X5UINNESS + MAHON CAYMAN TRUST
FROM GUIMSESS + MAHON, MIL DUBLIN
OATE 11TH JAN 1977
PLEASE AUTHORISE ME TO REMIT TO MRS. MACN. IN PARIS FRENCH FRANC

EQUIVALENT OF POUNDS STERLING SEVEN HUNQRED AND TO OEBIT SUN. SUB
CO. ACCOUNT.
REGAROS RU.
15s \k
5205 MARS El
3056UINNESS CP
TELEX MESSAGE
T0:
John Furze Esq., Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.,
DATS ,2/1/77
TEST:
Reference my telex li/l/77 re Mrs.MacN. can you authorise payment as

requested - by return If possible.
Regards Ru
AUTHORISED BY:
DEBIT:
COST:
FILE:
305GUINNESS CP
r 52&5
jMAFIS El
TO GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST
FROM GUINNESS + MAHON, jDUBLIN
DATE I2TH JAN IS77
FOR JOHN FURZE
REFERENCE MY TELEX I t / 1 / 7 7 RE MRS. MACN. CAN YOU AUTHORISE PAYMENT

AS REQUESTED - BY RETURN IF POSSIBLE.
REGARDS RU
16:22
5205 MARS El
3Q5GUINNESS CP
//a •
ft]
» —
iif mi
o
lô-o
^r=v>
T
T
•-jft-r .• x-j 'H'f "r.
•• .. .
•.. :v•' • - ;
v . 1 -
- - ' ' - V • ••
•• ' ••. :. ' )':• -X .
: 15th. February, 1977. *
. • • • I •. • • .
• ' " • " ' i -VI"*' ",
•' l • i
0.A.Furze, rfq./,- . J '' '

Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd.
P.O.Box. 887 . N" :. ' . *.
• ••• Grand Cayman,
. 4 .BRITISH WEST INDIES;. P ; • .
..V
' Dear .John, 4'
- I confirm W ttlex advlte of the 15 th. Inst., "hen I advised yeu
' < that I was debiting Sundry Sub.Company Account.£500.00 1n respect
' c a s h handed to Mrs.MacN. on 10/2/77.
y. i • ••
? Yours sincerely,' *
»• - • •
Jf-n. •
L" : 'T.RlEdNARU. '

. MANAGER ACCOUNTS.
- '. • a--..
, .• > . •
•V* • .•
.jS^ v-"" y-.-

Appendix XV (70) Ms Eileen Lynam
Eileen Lynam.
a) Transcript of evidence of Ms Eileen Lynam dated 30 November 2000.
b) Unsworn statement of Mr James Lynam of 10 November 2000.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Ms Eileen Lynam.
a) Letter of 7 December 2001 - Sheehan & Company Solicitors to the

Inspectors.
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MS. EILEEN LYNAM
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MS. E. LYNAM

Represented by: MR. J. SHEEHAN
SHEEHAN & CO
1 INTERVIEW WITH MS. EILEEN LYNAM COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS
2 ON THURSDAY, 30TH NOVEMBER 2000:
4 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Ms. Lynam, we are going to
5 begin our interview with
6 you in your own capacity. Because you have already
7 taken the oath we are not going to swear you again.
8 You are still under oath. We are commencing our
9 interview with you about your own affairs. For the
10 record can I have a little bit about yourself, your
11 career, your background?
12 A. I left school in 1975. I was at college, UCD, doing
13 a degree. I joined the Irish Times then in 1980
14 where I have worked for 20 years.
15 2 Q. As a journalist?
16 A. No, I work in the editor's office. I am his
17 personal assistant. I have worked part-time three
18 days a week since my twins were born in 1990.
19 3 Q. You are still with the Irish Times?
20 A. I am, yes.
21 4 Q. That is sufficient. Thank you very much. We can
22 do this very quickly because it is simply a matter
23 of dealing with what is here in your father's
24 statement (EXHIBIT 1), namely that in 1995 he
25 divided the money into three accounts numbered as we
26 have already listed them: A/A5-A, A/A5-D and
27 A/A5-G?
28 A. Yes.
29 5 Q. Your father says that the purpose of this was to
3
1 provide three separate funds on which he himself and
2 his two daughters could draw?
3 A. Yes.
4 6 Q. Speaking for yourself and not for your father or for
5 your sister, what did your father tell you about
6 that at that time?
7 A. He said that he no longer wanted to deal with
8 Padraig Collery because he wasn't able to because of
9 his health. He wasn't up to it. He wanted us to
10 look after it, to look after it on our own behalf
11 and on his behalf and to let him know if we wanted
12 to draw anything.
13 7 Q. When he told you this, had he already made this
14 arrangement or did he just make it then?
15 A. No, I think he called Padraig Collery out to the
16 house.
17 My sister and I were there and he introduced us.
18 8 Q. You were present at this meeting?
19 A. I cannot remember whether he told Padraig Collery
20 over the telephone in advance of it what his
21 intention was or whether he told him that day.
22 9 Q. But you were present at all times that day, were
23 you?
24 A. It was in 1995; I cannot remember whether my father
25 had five or ten minutes first with Padraig Collery.
26 I honestly can't. He probably did have a few
27 minutes.
28 10 Q. Can you tell me what occurred during the time you
29 were present. What did you learn personally?
4
1 A. Just that he was going to divide the accounts and
2 that myself and I would be dealing with Padraig
3 Collery in the future on my father's behalf. All
4 contact would come through me or my sister. Either
5 one of us were contactable.
6 11 Q. Did he tell that you that one account would be
7 particularly for you?
8 A. Yes. The one that began with "G" would be for me
9 and the one that began with "D" would be for my
10 sister.
11 12 Q. This is because of your surnames?
12 A. The names of our husbands, yes.
13 13 Q. Did he tell you how he was dividing the amount of
14 money he was putting into it?
15 A. He did, yes.
16 14 Q. I am not asking you for figures; we are not
17 concerned with that?
18 A. He did say how he was dividing it up, yes.
19 15 Q. He told you how he would divide it. You knew
20 exactly how much would be in yours?
21 A. I did, yes.
i—1
22 Q. You met Mr. Collery on that occasion?
23 A. I did, yes.
24 17 Q. You were introduced to him and he knew you were the
25 person who could deal with that account?
26 A. Yes .
27 18 Q. After that date did you in fact make any
28 withdrawals ?
29 A. I did, yes.
i—1
vo
1 Q. When was the first one?
2 A. The accounts were to mature on a three-monthly
3 basis. I am trying to remember. Sometimes I think
4 it was every three months, sometimes it was every
5 six months.
6 20 Q. Did you understand at that stage where the money
7 was ?
8 A. Yes .
9 21 Q. You knew it was offshore?
10 A. I did, yes.
11 22 Q. Did you know the name of the entity it was with at
12 that stage?
13 A. Cayman islands. I don't think I knew the word
14 "Ansbacher" no.
15 23 Q. You were saying it rolled over every three to
16 six months?
17 A. Yes .
18 24 Q. When did you make your first withdrawal was the
19 question I asked?
20 A. As far as my recollection is, I think three months
21 after that.
22 25 Q. At the end of the first maturity?
23 A. Yes .
24 26 Q. You didn't withdraw the entirety at that stage?
25 A. No. My father's use of it was to provide money.
26 He used to take a small amount of money and divide
27 it then between my sister and myself. He wanted us
28 to continue in that vein. There was certainly no
29 question that we could go in and take everything.

1 27 Q. You withdrew a certain amount?
2 A. Yes .
3 28 Q. What did you do when you wanted to withdraw it.
4 Did you contact Mr. Collery?
5 A. Yes, I would tell my father. I would ask him did he
6 want anything from the balance of the other account,
7 the A/A5-A account. Invariably he did. I would
8 arrange for Padraig Collery to come to my house. I
9 would ring him.
10 29 Q. Would you tell him on the telephone what it was you
11 wanted and how much you wanted and he would bring it
12 then?
13 A. Yes .
14 30 Q. Is that the way it was done?
15 A. Yes .
16 31 Q. Did you yourself add anything to that fund?
17 A. No.
18 32 Q. According to your father's statement (EXHIBIT 1)
19 here all three accounts were closed in late 1997?
20 A. Yes .
21 33 Q. Can you explain to me how that arose?
22 A. It was obvious that the whole Ansbacher thing was in
23 the newspapers. I talked about it to my father and
24 what was the best option to do. The best option was
25 to close it. At that time or just shortly
26 afterwards I asked Padraig Collery for the name of a
27 solicitor. He introduced me to Jerry Sheehan.
28 34 Q. That was after the accounts were closed, was it?
29 A. I cannot remember the timing of that. I am trying

1 to remember the newspapers. It was around the
2 time. It was probably at the same time, 1997.
3 35 Q. Could you tell me about the closing of it, who
4 arranged that?
5 A. I asked Padraig Collery to arrange for the closure
6 of the accounts.
7 36 Q. How was that done. What happened to the money?
8 A. The money was transferred by bearer bonds.
9 37 Q. To?
10 A. It was transferred to a bank in another offshore
11 account.
12 38 Q. In whose name would that have been transferred?
13 A. It was changed into two company names:
14 North Verilin and West Avoca. I didn't know how to
15 arrange to get it back into the country at that
16 stage. I was taking legal advice on that.
17 39 Q. Just to be clear about this, there were three
18 accounts?
19 A. Yes.
20 40 Q. When you were closing them, were the funds kept
21 separately in their new home or amalgamated?
22 A. Two were amalgamated and one was kept separately.
23 41 Q. Which were the two that were amalgamated?
24 A. "D" and "A" were amalgamated.
25 42 Q. That is your sister's and your father's?
26 A. Yes. "G" was kept separately.
27 43 Q. Did it continue in that way?
28 A. It did, yes. That was a temporary measure until we
29 took legal advice on what was the best path to
8
1 pursue.
2 44 Q. Just to make clear in my questioning that I am not
3 concerned with what ultimately became of the money,
4 what I am concerned to know is whether you retained
5 control over your part of it?
6 A. I dealt with it with the bank, yes.
7 45 Q. I take it that it was repatriated at some stage?
8 A. Yes .
9 46 Q. Did you retain control of the part that had been
10 yours ?
11 A. No. The accounts were closed and a cheque issued to
12 my sister and I who we considered the beneficial
13 owner of the account, James Lynam, and they were
14 returned to Dublin and lodged to the Revenue
15 Commissioners.
16 47 Q. So the entirety of the funds went to your father?
17 A. Absolutely, yes.
^J1
CO
18 Q. I see. During the course of the time that the
19 money was on deposit in Ansbacher Cayman under the
20 code name A/A5-G it earned interest?
21 A. Yes .
22 49 Q. Did you personally return that interest during that
23 time to the Revenue Commissioners?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 50 Q. I don't think I need to ask you any more questions,
26 Ms. Lynam. Thank you very much.
27 A. Just to point out that my first meeting with Jerry
28 was in 1998. So that when I say we were taking
29 legal advice, my sister and I were discussing what

1 we should do. We didn't know what to do. My
2 father was too ill and we didn't like to discuss it
3 with him. We decided to lodge the money and then
4 work out what to do.
5 51 Q. That is fine. Thank you very much, Ms. Lynam.
7 END OF INTERVIEW WITH MS. EILEEN LYNAM
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
10
? OJ ^ CL/Uî-
yvo-
(Cayman) Ltd
I have been involved in a property company known as E & J Lynam Properties Ltd
properties in and around the Dublin Area ever since. I was familiar with Des Traynor
as he audited the company accounts for many years. At that time he was with the
firm Haughey Boland Accountants.
invest money he could arrange for this and I would get a better rate of interest. The
initial conversation wasrelatively short. I do not remember it in detail however he
did say that the monies would be invested in the Cayman Islands. From my records I
James, happened in or about 1979.
I believe the monies were lodged with the Bank for the name of Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust I * J I never heard of ihis Bank before.
I do not know if I ever signed a letter of wishes or a Deed of Trust. There is a

same.
I had very little contact with Des Traynor in relation to this deposit. This is largely
because there were no additions or withdrawalsfrom the account until circa 1990. I
think it was around this time also that the account which I held jointly with my
I received lettersfrom Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Ltd setting out balances and
received lettersfrom Des Traynor directlyfrom his address at 42 Fitzwilliam Square.
interest in it.
held some monies in a call deposit account and other monies in afixed deposit
confirming the up to date position.
contact with or was contacted by Mr. Collery. If I wanted to withdraw monies after
way. Occasionally Mr. Collery would deliver the amount to my house in Sutton.
In June 1995 I divided the money into three accounts which the documentation shows
were numbered AJAS-A, A/A5-D, A/A5-G. The purpose of this was to provide three
separate funds on which I and my two daughters Eileen and Mary could draw. They
have dealt directly with Mr. Collery since that time.
Eventually the three accounts were closed in late 1997.
In relation to the questions raised in Appendix C the following are my replies, to the
best of my knowledge:
(a) There was no Trust

(b) Moniesfirst transferred in 1979
(c) None
(d) 1990 onwards
(o) Not relevant
(f) J' no copy oi a letter of wishes although it appearsfrom my
records that ojin was signed
Collery.
2. I did not avail of this service
3.-7. Not relevant
8. None.
r*
Sheehan & Company
S O L I C I T O R S
I CLARE STREET DUBLIN 2. TELEPHONE (II 66 I 6122

TELEFAX 1)1 66 10(11.1. D . I) . E . 168
I) \T K
th
JPS/DC/L367 C/L08/NSPM 7i
thDecember 2001
V.
IIM: t
Inspectors appointed by Order of the High Court
To Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd
3 r d Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
FAX: 283 3929
RE: Our Client: Ms. Eileen Lynam
Dear Sirs,
We acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 16 th November 2001 in relation to our above
named client.
Our client disagrees with the preliminary conclusion of the Inspectors that she was a
client of Ansbacher on the grounds that she never considered herself to be the true
beneficial owner of the funds in any particular account of that Institution.
You ' " "
SHEEHAN & CO,
JEREMIAH SHEEHAN B. A. DAVID C . COLBERT B.A.. LL.B.

C.RAINNE A HERN B.C.I... MEL FERGl'SON B.Se. D.L.S.. DOLORES OKEEFFE B.C.L..
GERARD CI.LARY B.A. Dip I.S.. CHRIS VAN DER LEE LL.B. I L n n J c> n I
CONSULTANT GARRETT SHEEHAN B.C.L. LL.B.

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Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990

REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

© Government of Ireland 2002

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Gerald Hickey dated 25 May 2000.

b) Statement and attachments of Mr Gerald Hickey dated 19 May 2000.

c) Undated Guinness and Mahon memo headed 'Gerry Hickey'.

d) Receipt of share certificate of 28 May 1993.

e) Ansbacher Cayman Limited statement of current a/c of 24 June 1996.

f) Telefax of 22 September 1994 - JA Furze to IIB.

g) Extract from meeting of Board of Directors of Guinness and Mahon of 28

h) Extract of Guinness and Mahon credit committee minutes of 4 November

i) Letter of 16 November 1971 - Guinness and Mahon to Gerald Hickey.

ON THURSDAY, 25TH MAY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

The Inspectors: MR. ROWAN FCA

Interviewee: MR. GERALD HICKEY

Represented by: MR. BRIAN BOHAN

WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE

MR. G. HICKEY MS. MACKEY

2 25TH MAY 2000:

4 MR. ROWAN: Good morning, Mr. Hickey.

5 My name is Paul Rowan. My

6 fellow inspector is Noreen Mackey. This is an

7 interview today. It is not a Court and it is not a

9 MR. HICKEY: Yes.

10 MR. ROWAN: If you wish to consult

11 with your legal advisor,

12 if your ask us to stop we will allow you to speak to

14 MR. HICKEY: I see, yes.

15 MR. ROWAN: Equally, Mr. Bohan, if you

16 wish to make a point to

17 your client, if you ask us to stop we will allow you

19 MR. BOHAN: Yes.

20 MR. HICKEY: This is not a Tribunal.

23 MS. MACKEY: No.

24 MR. ROWAN: No.

25 MR. BOHAN: It is an inquiry.

26 MR. ROWAN: It is just an

28 MR. HICKEY: I see, yes.

29 MR. ROWAN: As you can see we are

2 of this. It will be converted into written form

3 afterwards and you will be asked to sign it.

4 MR. HICKEY: Yes.

5 MR. ROWAN: What we tend to do — and

6 it may well be appropriate

7 in this case -- is that if you feel you would like

8 to stop because you are not feeling well, would you

9 please let us know and we will arrange to have a

11 MR. HICKEY: Thank you.

12 MR. ROWAN: In any event we tend to

13 have a break after about

15 MR. HICKEY: I see.

16 MR. ROWAN: We will take it at your

18 MR. HICKEY: Right so. Thank you

19 very much. That is fine.

20 MR. ROWAN: I would like to ask

21 Ms. Mackey to administer