PERFECTIONISM IN CLASSICAL PIANISTS: AN EXPLORATION OF

HOW IT MANIFESTS ITSELF AND POSSIBLE COPING STRATEGIES

Adam McMillan

A thesis submitted in partial fulfilment

of the requirements for the degree of
Bachelor of Music (Honours),
Queensland Conservatorium of Music,
Griffith University.

2014

CERTIFICATION
I hereby certify this work is original and has not been previously submitted in whole
or part by me or any other person for any qualification or award in any university. I
further certify that to the best of my knowledge and belief, the dissertation contains no
material previously published or written by another person excerpt where due
reference is made in the dissertation itself to the source of such material.
Name.......................................................
Signed.....................................................
Date.........................................................

ii

ABSTRACT
This study explores the phenomenon of perfectionism as experienced by classical
pianists, with the aim of understanding how perfectionism can affect their quality of
learning, performance experiences, and wellbeing. In-depth, semi-structured
interviews were conducted with four classical pianists. The interview questions were
informed by a prior investigation into the literature on perfectionism, and an analysis
of the interview data led to the emergence of a number of themes. These include:
perfectionism as striving for musical ideals; avenues in which perfectionism manifests
itself; mental struggles associated with perfectionism; and strategies for coping with
perfectionism. The process of interpreting interview data was supported by an
ongoing journaling process, which allowed me to reflect on ways in which
perfectionism affects my own music-making as a classical pianist. A significant
theme in this study is the potential for perfectionism to be both facilitating and
debilitating for classical pianists. Consequently, an important contribution of this
study is the exploration of how perfectionism can enable musicians to pursue
excellence, when unhealthy aspects of perfectionism are recognized and managed.

iii

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
I would like to sincerely thank Dr Stephen Emmerson, for his invaluable guidance
and support throughout the duration of this project, and the four classical pianists who
agreed to be interviewed, for their willingness to allow me a glimpse of their rich,
inner musical worlds.

iv

TABLE OF CONTENTS
CHAPTER ONE: INTRODUCTION ............................................................................ 1
Brief background ....................................................................................................... 1
Research questions ..................................................................................................... 2
Rationale .................................................................................................................... 2
Structure of thesis ...................................................................................................... 3
CHAPTER TWO: LITERATURE REVIEW ................................................................ 4
Historical conceptions of perfectionism .................................................................... 4
Perfectionism and musical demands .......................................................................... 7
General resources ....................................................................................................... 8
Contribution to the literature ...................................................................................... 9
CHAPTER THREE: METHODOLOGY .................................................................... 10
Qualitative Design ................................................................................................... 10
Interview Participants .............................................................................................. 11
Semi-structured Interviewing................................................................................... 11
Data Analysis ........................................................................................................... 11
Reflective Journaling ............................................................................................... 12
Role of Researcher ................................................................................................... 12
Ethical Considerations ............................................................................................. 13
CHAPTER FOUR: ANALYSIS OF INTERVIEWS .................................................. 14
Perceptions of perfectionism.................................................................................... 14
Avenues for perfectionism ....................................................................................... 15
Healthy versus unhealthy ......................................................................................... 16
Moving forward ....................................................................................................... 18
CHAPTER FIVE: REFLECTIVE JOURNALING ..................................................... 22
Reflection on journal entry from 15/July/14 ............................................................ 22
Reflection on journal entry from 13/August/14 ....................................................... 23
Reflection on journal entry from 1/Sept/14 ............................................................. 24
CHAPTER SIX: CONCLUSIONS .............................................................................. 26
Summary of findings ............................................................................................... 26
Further research ....................................................................................................... 28
Final words............................................................................................................... 28
REFERENCES ............................................................................................................ 29
v

APPENDIX A: PERFECTIONISTIC THOUGHTS MEASURED ON THE FROST

MULTIDIMENSIONAL PERFECTIONISM SCALE (FROST ET AL., 1990, P. 455;
STOEBER & OTTO, 2006, P. 299) ............................................................................ 32
Personal standards.................................................................................................... 32
Organization............................................................................................................. 32
Concern over mistakes ............................................................................................. 32
Doubts about actions ................................................................................................ 32
Parental expectations ............................................................................................... 32
Parental criticism ..................................................................................................... 32
APPENDIX B: PERFECTIONISTIC THOUGHTS MEASURED ON HEWITT &
FLETTS MULTIDIMENSIONAL PERFECTIONISM SCALE (1991, P. 470)....... 33
Self-oriented perfectionism:..................................................................................... 33
Other-oriented perfectionism: .................................................................................. 33
Socially prescribed perfectionism: ........................................................................... 33
APPENDIX C: SOME CATEGORIES OF PERFECTIONISTIC THINKING
DESCRIBED IN WHEN PERFECT ISNT GOOD ENOUGH (ANTONY &
SWINSON, 2009, PP. 48-53) ...................................................................................... 34
All-or-nothing thinking ............................................................................................ 34
Filtering .................................................................................................................... 34
Catastrophic thinking ............................................................................................... 34
APPENDIX D: INTERVIEW QUESTIONS .............................................................. 35
APPENDIX E: PARTICIPANT 1 INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT............................... 37
APPENDIX F: PARTICIPANT 2 INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT ............................... 46
APPENDIX G: PARTICIPANT 3 INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT .............................. 58
APPENDIX H: PARTICIPANT 4 INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT .............................. 68

vi

CHAPTER ONE: INTRODUCTION

Brief background
The pursuit of perfection presents an interesting set of challenges to the musicians
who seek it; not only does it influence all areas of music-making, from technique to
interpretation, but it can also undermine ones relationship to the music, turning what
can be a joyful and rewarding undertaking into a frustrating and seemingly futile
endeavour. While striving for perfection may or may not be inherently problematic
for all musicians, the effects of that pursuit, at least in my own experience, have
generally been negative, and such perfectionistic ambitions have tended to make my
musical journey unnecessarily arduous and taxing.
Although there are challenges common to most music students in a conservatorium
setting, such as having to master advanced repertoire in short periods of time while
also developing ones playing abilities, my own informal discussions with fellow
music students indicates that not all musicians experience the desire for perfection or
the negative consequences of striving for it. Those who do, however, tend to find such
tendencies often manifest themselves in ways that compound the conventional
challenges of being a music student.
While perfectionism may affect tertiary music students in their attempts to gain
positive evaluations of their playing, a culture of perfectionism could begin much
earlier in life for musicians, as talented children are often pushed to achieve success in
eisteddfods, AMEB exams and their academic schooling.
What is common to many of the aforementioned challenges is their emphasis on
performance goals in which individuals are concerned with gaining favorable
judgements of their competence, as opposed to learning goals, in which individuals
are concerned with increasing their competence (Dweck & Leggett, 1988, p. 256).
Research has shown that children who are pushed to meet performance goals more so
than learning goals are significantly more likely to exhibit dysfunctional
perfectionism reporting a combination of high concern about mistakes, doubts
about actions, parental expectations, and parental criticism (Ablard & Parker, 1997,
p. 651).
1

In musicians, perfectionism potentially has positive and negative aspects. Striving for
perfection has been shown to be associated with intrinsic motivation to pursue music
studies, higher effort, and higher achievement (Stoeber & Eismann, 2007, p. 2190).
On the other hand, negative reactions to imperfection have been associated with
debilitating (rather than facilitating) performance anxiety, emotional fatigue, and
somatic complaints (Mor, Day, & Flett, 1995, p. 219). Given these findings, it became
imperative for me to investigate methods for coping with the negative aspects of
perfectionism, while capitalising on any positive aspects.
As part of this research, I interviewed four classical pianists. The purpose of these
interviews was not to consult a representative sample, but to provide in-depth
perspectives on perfectionism from the point of view of classical pianists. A selfreflective journaling process from my own perspective as a classical pianist, along
with a review of the relevant literature, provided a means for interpreting the
interview data.
Research questions
In this study, the following research questions are addressed:
1. How do some classical pianists, including myself, perceive the effect of
perfectionism on the quality of their learning, performance experience, and
wellbeing?
2. What strategies might classical pianists implement in order to cope more
effectively with perfectionism?
Rationale
Past research on musical perfectionism consists largely of quantitative studies from
the field of psychology (Kenny, Davis, & Oates, 2004; Kobori, Yoshie, Kudo, &
Ohtsuki, 2011; Mor et al., 1995; Stoeber & Eismann, 2007). The benefit of a
qualitative inquiry into musical perfectionism, as employed in this study, is that the
experiences of the interviewed pianists may be more richly explored and interpreted.
It is hoped that this type of preliminary study may lead to further more extensive
studies of the phenomenon.

I strongly believe that research on musical perfectionism, both informed by the

established research, and from the point of view of classical pianists, has the potential
to be of significance to conservatory music students who are under high pressure to
meet performance and learning goals simultaneously. Teachers may also benefit from
becoming informed of the potential consequences of perfectionism on the wellbeing
of their students. Lastly, my personal exploration of the nature of perfectionism, the
ways it can manifest in my own playing, and the testing of suggested coping strategies
within the domain of music will not only contribute to my own healthy growth as a
musician, but will provide a resource for fellow musicians who experience similar
challenges.
Structure of thesis
This thesis is organized into six chapters. Chapter two provides a review of the
literature relevant to the present study of musical perfectionism. The available
literature includes research from the field of psychology that provides
conceptualisations of perfectionism, quantitative research into the prevalence of
perfectionism in musicians, and some more accessible resources related to developing
strategies for coping with perfectionism. Chapter three outlines the methodological
framework of the present study. Chapter four provides an analysis of the interview
data obtained from interviews with the four classical pianists. Chapter five provides
some reflections on journal entries that supplemented the process of interpreting the
interview data, from my own insiders perspective as a pianist. Finally, chapter six
contains a summary of findings, implications for further research, and concluding
thoughts on the subject.

CHAPTER TWO: LITERATURE REVIEW

A number of benefits are to be gained from exploring the literature on perfectionism,
and specifically on its manifestations in musicians. It will provide an understanding of
how the particular demands of being a musician are influenced by perfectionism. This
includes both the potential benefits and difficulties caused by perfectionistic
tendencies. With regard to the adverse consequences of perfectionism on musicians
lives, reviewing the literature will help provide an understanding of what solutions
and coping strategies are available.
To understand the role that perfectionism plays for the classical pianists interviewed
in this study, it is important first to understand what perfectionism is, and how
research on the subject has progressed historically.
Historical conceptions of perfectionism
Most general definitions of perfectionism within the field of psychology take
something close to the following form: Perfectionism is characterised by striving for
flawlessness and setting of excessively high standards for performance accompanied
by tendencies for overly critical evaluations of ones behaviour (Stoeber & Eismann,
2007, p. 2183).
Within the field of psychology, it has been difficult for researchers to agree on a
definitive conception of perfectionism. An early study in 1978 by Hamachek
postulated that there were two forms of perfectionists: normal perfectionists and
neurotic perfectionists. To a large degree, this basic understanding has been echoed
throughout the literature in later years, although some researchers asserted that
perfectionism could only be dysfunctional (Burns, 1980; Pacht, 1984).
In the 1990s, two separate teams of researchers proposed that perfectionism was, in
fact, multi-dimensional in nature, and identified a number of characteristics that
contribute to it.
Frost, Marten, Lahart, and Rosenblate (1990) identified six dimensions of
perfectionism: personal standards, organization, concern over mistakes, doubts about
4

actions, parental expectations, and parental criticisms. Collectively, these dimensions

formed the theory that perfectionists have high standards, value order and
organization, and try to avoid mistakes and are thus often indecisive about their
actions. Moreover, perfectionists attach great importance to past or present
evaluations by their parents (Stoeber & Otto, 2006, p. 297). For examples of these
six dimensions, as measured with the Frost Multidimensional Perfectionism Scale
(Frost et al., 1990), see Appendix A.
The other researchers that provided evidence of the multi-dimensional nature of
perfectionism were Hewitt & Flett (1991), who identified three dimensions: selforiented perfectionism, other-oriented perfectionism and socially prescribed
perfectionism. Self-oriented perfectionism involves the self-directed behaviours of
setting exacting standards for oneself and stringently evaluating and censuring ones
own behaviour (Hewitt & Flett, 1991, p. 457). Other-oriented perfectionism was
described as beliefs and expectations about the capabilities of others, such as having
unrealistic standards for significant others, placing importance on others being perfect
and stringently evaluating others performance (Hewitt & Flett, 1991, p. 457).
Socially prescribed perfectionism is the dimension of perfectionism that involves
peoples belief or perception that significant others have unrealistic standards for
them, evaluate them stringently, and exert pressure on them to be perfect (Hewitt &
Flett, 1991, p. 457). For examples of these three dimensions, as measured with Hewitt
& Fletts Multidimensional Perfectionism Scale (1991), see Appendix B.
In 1993, Frost, Heimberg, Holt, Mattia, and Neubauer compared these two measures
of perfectionism. The result of their analysis was that from the various dimensions
that form the two multidimensional measures of perfectionism (Frost et. al, 1990;
Hewitt & Flett, 1991), two overarching factors emerged. One factor comprised
personal standards, organization, self-oriented perfectionism, and other-oriented
perfectionism; this cluster reflected the positive aspects of perfectionism (Frost et. al,
1993, p. 125). The second factor comprised concern over mistakes, parental criticism,
parental expectations, doubts about action, and socially-prescribed perfectionism; this
cluster reflected the negative aspects of perfectionism (Frost et. al, 1993, p. 125).
Essentially, the two dimensions that emerged were perfectionistic strivings and
perfectionistic concerns, consistent with existing theories that certain forms of
5

perfectionism can be positive and further supporting Hamacheks original supposition

regarding normal and neurotic perfectionism (1978).
Since Frost et al.s study in 1993, there have been a number of further studies that
identify positive characteristics of perfectionism (Chang, Watkins, & Banks, 2004;
Parker & Stumpf, 1995; Rice, Lopez, & Vergara 2005, Stumpf & Parker, 2000;
Suddarth & Slaney, 2001), contrasting with earlier research asserting that
perfectionism could only be dysfunctional. Stoeber & Otto (2006) summarise the
emergent view of perfectionism as potentially positive, with relation to Hamacheks
early conception of perfectionists as normal or neurotic:
Normal perfectionists are individuals who show high levels of perfectionistic
strivings, but are not overly distressed by the issues that are combined in the
dimension of perfectionistic concerns... In contrast, neurotic perfectionists show
high levels of perfectionistic strivings and are overly distressed by the issues
combined in the dimension of perfectionistic concerns Perfectionistic strivings
in themselves are not only normal, but may be positiveif only perfectionists
could focus on doing their best rather than worrying about mistakes, enjoy
striving for perfection rather than being afraid of falling short of it, and
concentrate on what has been achieved rather than pondering the discrepancy
between what has been achieved and what might have been achieved if
everything had worked out perfectly. In this form, perfectionism would be a
perfectly positive disposition. (p. 316)
In 2002, Shafran, Cooper, and Fairburn defined perfectionism in a new way,
proposing clinical perfectionism, a cognitive-behavioural conceptualisation of
perfectionism. This research suggested that clinical perfectionism is maintained by
the setting of dichotomous standards, evaluating the striving and attainment of
performance in a biased way, self-criticism if the standards are not met in the salient
domain and, if standards are met, reappraising them as insufficiently demanding (p.
787). The implication of this model was that cognitive behavioural therapy techniques
could be used to help patients identify and change unhelpful thought patterns e.g. if
the house is not totally tidy, it is an absolute mess (Shafran et. al, 2002). A later
study (Glover, Brown, Fairburn, & Shafran, 2007), confirmed that such an approach
had clinical utility, and was able to assist patients in decreasing perfectionistic
concerns. What this proved was that although perfectionism was traditionally viewed
as a stable personality trait, it could instead, to a degree, be approached as a
construct amenable to treatment (Glover et al., 2007, p. 86).

Perfectionism and musical demands

Research related to perfectionism in musicians is generally focussed on understanding
the prevalence of the phenomenon, and on consequences specific to musicians. From
their study of perfectionism in opera chorus artists, Kenny et al. (2004) provide a
summary of the challenging demands placed on musicians:
Music performance requires a high level of skill in a diverse range of skill areas
including fine motor dexterity and co-ordination, attention and memory,
aesthetic, and interpretative skills. To achieve prominence requires the attainment
of near perfection demanding years of training, solitary practice, and constant,
intense self-evaluation (p. 760).
A number of studies provide evidence of the potential problems of perfectionism for
musicians. Kenny et al. found perfectionism to be associated with anxiety and
specifically music performance anxiety (2004, p. 772). Similarly, Kobori et al.
provided the following findings: Concern over mistakes had negative characteristics;
its relationship with performance anxiety was consistent and greater than those of any
other variable. Therefore, preoccupation with mistakes and equating mistakes with
failure would be dysfunctional for musicians (2011, p. 678). Stoeber & Eismann also
found a relationship between negative reactions to imperfection and higher distress in
musicians (2007, p. 2182).
Despite these findings that provide evidence of the potentially negative consequences
of perfectionism for musicians, there are many studies that demonstrate that
perfectionism can be positive and constructive. Stoeber & Eismanns research into
perfectionism in musicians found striving for perfection to be associated with positive
characteristics such as intrinsic motivation, higher effort, and higher achievement
(2007, p. 2182). Kobori et al. provide a similar finding, putting forward the notion
that the pursuit of perfection can be functional in the practice room, allowing
musicians to polish their playing in order to confidently deliver performances (2011,
p. 678).
Although these findings suggest that striving for perfection is constructive in the
practice room, performers may benefit more from the ability to accept imperfections
and let go of mistakes (Dews & Williams, 1989, p. 46). Pianist Artur Rubinstein had
this to say on the subject:

Never mind if I miss one or two notes. The big line is the thing, and it seems to
convey the right thing to the audience. Otherwise I would have been pushed from
the concert podiums years ago. The public wouldnt stand for it. I think I am the
champion of playing wrong notes, but I dont care. And the public doesnt seem
to care much (as cited in Elder, 1982, p. 3).
In a similar vein, research has shown that primarily pursuing performance goals, as
opposed to learning goals, tends to promote dysfunctional perfectionism (Ablard &
Parker, 1997, p. 651). As mentioned earlier, learning goals are concerned with
increasing competence, as opposed to performance goals, which are concerned with
gaining favourable judgments of competence (Dweck & Leggett, 1988, p. 256). It has
been found to be healthier to focus on learning goals, and that a problem-solving
focused approach in the practice room may lead to more adaptive perfectionism
(Lehmann, Sloboda, & Woody, 2007, p. 678; Mor et al., 1995, p. 221; Rice &
Lapsley, 2001, p. 166).
A number of studies have investigated approaches for dealing with the maladaptive
aspects of perfectionism. From a cognitive-behavioural standpoint, studies such as
Kendrick, Craig, Lawson, and Davidson (1982, p. 356), and Mor et al. (1995, p. 221)
show that mental biases such as dichotomous thinking and selective attention to
failure may be challenged, and replaced with task-oriented and positive thoughts.
Pleva & Wade found a reduction in symptoms could be achieved by following
cognitive-behavioural strategies in a similar way, and promotes the book When
Perfect Isnt Good Enough (Antony & Swinson, 1998/2009) as an effective and
accessible self-help guide to reducing perfectionistic tendencies (2007, p. 860).
In summary, the psychology literature suggests that perfectionism is a complex
psychological construct, with both positive and negative attributes. Striving for
excellence is regarded as a positive characteristic of perfectionism, and can work
strongly in favour of perfectionistic individuals, but may carry with it a self-punishing
attitude, and an excessive and counterproductive fear of making mistakes.
General resources
While much of the literature discussed so far is of a technical nature, there are several
more accessible resources available to musicians who want to understand how

perfectionism could affect their life and their music-making. As mentioned above, the
book When Perfect Isnt Good Enough (Antony & Swinson, 1998/2009) has been
promoted by researchers as an effective self-help guide for coping with perfectionism
(Pleva & Wade, 2007, p. 860). In particular, Chapter 3 (Perfectionism and
Thoughts) provides descriptions of a number of different types of perfectionistic
thoughts, all of which can contribute to emotional distress. Categories of
perfectionistic thoughts include all-or-nothing thinking, filtering, catastrophic
thinking, and a number of others. For examples of some of the categories described,
see Appendix C. The chapter assists the reader in identifying common types of
perfectionistic thoughts, and formulating new, healthier thoughts.
Other resources include Feeling Good by David D. Burns (2009), which provides
extensive, practical information on the process of identifying unhealthy thoughts and
replacing them with constructive ones, and The Perfect Wrong Note: Learning to
Trust Your Musical Self by pianist and pedagogue William Westney, which provides
a psychologically and physically healthy basis for piano practice.
Contribution to the literature
Having reviewed the literature relevant to the present investigation of musical
perfectionism, it is important to highlight the contribution made in this dissertation.
This study does not seek to contribute to perfectionism from a scientific perspective,
but rather from the particular perspectives of pianists (including myself) who
experience the phenomenon of perfectionism in their musical pursuits.
Aiming to understand pianists experiences of perfectionism, including positive and
negative aspects, provides a resource for pianists and musicians to better recognize
and deal with their own perfectionistic tendencies. While the available literature
provides information on the concept and psychology of perfectionism, this
dissertation is orientated towards understanding the relevance and application of that
research to musical perfectionism.

CHAPTER THREE: METHODOLOGY

The following research questions are addressed in this thesis:
1. How do some classical pianists, including myself, perceive the effect of
perfectionism on the quality of their learning, performance experience, and
wellbeing?
2. What strategies might classical pianists implement in order to cope more
effectively with perfectionism?
The qualitative design of this study is built upon a review of the relevant literature on
perfectionism, interviews with four classical pianists regarding their perceptions of
perfectionism, analysis of these interviews, and a reflective journaling process. As a
classical pianist myself, I am approaching this research as an insider, allowing me to
draw on my own experiences in the reflective journals. Triangulating my findings
with that of the interview responses and with the relevant literature enhances the
validity of findings in this thesis.
Qualitative Design
This research employs a qualitative, mixed-method approach, using in-depth, semistructured interviews as a primary mode of data collection. The scope of the project
permitted only four participants to be interviewed, but allowed for thorough analysis
and cross-comparison of each case, and for the research to elucidate features of a
larger class of (similar) phenomena, by developing and evaluating theoretical
explanations (Porta & Keating, 2008, p. 226). Qualitative interviewing provides the
possibility of understanding the unique viewpoints of participants (Burns, 2000, p.
11).
In contrast to prior studies in which musical perfectionism has been measured
quantitatively, this phenomenological investigation examines musical perfectionism
by gaining an understanding of how it is experienced by each interview participant,
and what meaning is drawn from these experiences. As mentioned above, the findings
derived from the interviews were later triangulated with constructs from the literature
and my own personal experience as captured through journaling.

10

One qualitative study of performance anxiety in professional performers implements a

similar framework, providing an analysis of the in-depth interviews conducted with
participants, categorising the various strategies participants use to cope with
performance anxiety (Roland, 1994).
Interview Participants
Acknowledging my role in this research as a classical pianist who is interested in
gaining insight into how perfectionism might affect my practice and performance,
limiting the scope of selected interview participants to classical pianists meant that I
was well equipped to interpret interview data. Participants were chosen to represent a
range in gender and age, and range from the semi-professional performing student to
the veteran performer. The purpose of selecting pianists from a wide range of
professional statuses was to allow the phenomenon of musical perfectionism to be
examined from a variety of perspectives and worldviews. Focusing on the perceptions
of just four pianists allowed for a rich description of each perspective.
Semi-structured Interviewing
Semi-structured interviews, as implemented into the qualitative design of this
research, allowed the interview questions to be navigated in a flexible way, and for
the researcher to be responsive to the unique worldview and insights of the participant
as they emerged from the discussion (Merriam, 2009, p. 90). Interview questions were
derived from an initial process of research on perfectionism, and self-reflection. The
interview questions I prepared are provided in Appendix D, although as the interviews
were semi-structured they were not presented each time with the exact wording or
same order. Each interview lasted approximately 30-45 minutes, and was recorded in
audio format, allowing full transcripts to be written following each interview (see
Appendices E through H).
Data Analysis
After the interviews were completed and each interview was transcribed, the first step
in analysing and interpreting the data was to reduce the text by marking passages that
stood out as interesting or significant (Wolcott, 1994; Seidman, 1998, p. 120). As
observed by Seidman (1998, p. 119), doing so requires an open-minded approach,
allowing salient information to emerge from the text. Following this initial step,
11

marked passages were sorted into categories, and emerging connections between
categories led to a number of themes (Seidman, 1998, p. 127).
After completing this analysis, it was necessary to reflect on what was gained from
the process, what was understood about musical perfectionism that was not
understood prior to interviewing, consistencies and inconsistencies among the
interviews and the literature, and what meaning I had been able to draw from the
investigation (Seidman, 1998, p. 130). As I compared new ideas and insights with my
own perceptions, and put those ideas into practice, I was also able to reflect on how
my own perceptions had changed or broadened.
Reflective Journaling
This research makes use of self-reflective journaling as a supplementary tool in the
inductive investigation of musical perfectionism. The advantage of incorporating
reflective journaling into the research is that it assists in the process of drawing
meaning from themes codified from interview data, and aids in identifying
implications of the themes for my own and others musical development. Rather
than force-fitting the words of participants into theories derived from other sources
(Seidman, 1998, p. 130), spending time engaged in self-reflective journaling assists in
searching for new avenues and theories for further research.
While the journal entries were unstructured in format, the content provided a further
pool of data enabling me to test my own experiences against those described by the
interviewed pianists. In chapter five, some entries are reflected upon with the intent of
addressing the questions What?, So what?, and Now what? (Rolfe, Freshwater, &
Jasper, 2001). This meant writing about actions, consequences, responses, feelings
and problems to give a context; examining what I have learnt from the situation, and
relating new insights to any key themes from the interviews; and identifying the
impact these ideas could have on my practice or thinking, and what can be improved
in the future (Williams & Woolliams, 2012, p. 80).
Role of Researcher
As the primary instrument of data collection and analysis (Merriam, 2009, p. 14), I
was able to conduct theoretically informed interviews, interpret interview data, and
12

support this process with reflective journaling. Being a classical pianist myself, it was
possible for me, as the researcher, to pursue an understanding of the phenomenon of
musical perfectionism from a similar perspective to that of the participants. In
addition to supporting the analysis of interview data, my background as a classical
pianist allowed me to pursue deeper insights into perfectionisms effects on my own
practice, and how it influences the mindsets that I and others adopt in the practice
room.
Ethical Considerations
Ethical approval for this research was granted by Griffith University and ethical
considerations for this research were limited to obtaining consent for interviews and
recordings from participants. As discussion of the psychological construct of musical
perfectionism potentially involves the divulgence of particularly personal reflections
on the subject from participants, anonymity of the participants was maintained, and
any identifying personal information obscured.

13

CHAPTER FOUR: ANALYSIS OF INTERVIEWS

The responses obtained from the interviews conducted with the four classical pianists
provide insight into each pianists understanding of what perfectionism is for them.
Emerging from each inquiry are unique perspectives that share common subjects of:
perfectionism as striving for musical ideals, avenues in which perfectionism
manifests, the extent to which perfectionism involves mental struggles, handling these
struggles, and despite it all, what pianists do to keep getting better.
In this chapter, an analysis of the interview data will be presented; moving through
the subjects outlined above and connecting common themes between the responses.
For transcripts of each of the four interviews, refer to Appendices E through H. Table
1 provides brief information on the background and experience of participants.
Table 1 Participant information outline
Participant 1

Male; postgraduate student

Participant 2

Female; performer and doctoral student

Participant 3

Male; over two decades of experience performing and teaching

Participant 4

Female; over three decades of experience performing and

teaching

Perceptions of perfectionism
All of the pianists shared the view that the foundation of perfectionism is in striving
for very high standards in various aspects of piano playing. Although there was some
minor variation in whether the pianists believed the result being strived for is
ultimately achievable, it was nevertheless agreed upon that the daily act of striving for
perfection is essential to being a good pianist. Participant 4 shared her belief of
perfectionism as necessary in the following way: I think if youre not striving for
perfection or a perfect performance then youre probably not going to be as fastidious
for accuracy, and youll be quite happy with just a 90% performance.
Participant 3 described perfection as an ideal that is pursued, but an ultimately
unreachable destination:

14

When I think of perfectionism in piano playing, I think of Plato, and the idea of
absolute forms and the Platonic ideal form of a piece of music, and the idea that
every piece of music exists somewhere out there in its perfect form, and everyone
is trying to recreate that, but inevitably failing, but trying nevertheless.
As well as sharing the view of perfectionism as striving for music in its ideal form,
Participant 2 also suggested that perfectionism could be a kind of talent which she
described as an ear for detail and having an ideal thats beyond what other people
can hear.
Although the theme of perfectionism as striving to achieve an ideal form was shared
among the pianists, for two of the four pianists it was more apparent that this striving
was inseparably partnered with a degree of psychological struggle. The other two
pianists shared a similar understanding of how perfectionism can become unhealthy,
but seemed to have less to relate to personally in this regard. The psychological
struggle experienced by Participants 1 and 4 primarily related to having difficulties
accepting imperfection. Participant 4 put it this way:
We can be too hard on ourselves, and that can interrupt spontaneity, it can
interrupt the sense of freedom in a performance, and so that you dont actually
play your best, because youre nervous about not playing perfect.
Participant 1 was able to suggest a definition of perfectionism that takes into account
the potential for perfectionism to become obsessive:
Perfectionism is aiming to make everything perfect, and I think it would imply
aiming to make things perfect to the point of obsession, or to the point where that
aim becomes unhealthy.
Avenues for perfectionism
In collectively understanding perfectionism as striving for ideals, it emerged from the
interviews that there are various avenues within music for such striving to take place.
These avenues include technique, interpretation, concentration, and thinking. In both
practice and performance, pianists identified these various avenues of perfectionistic
pursuit to varying degrees. The pursuit of interpretive clarity was identified as
potentially the most important area in which to strive for perfection. It was observed
by most of the pianists that in such a pursuit, it is inevitable that every pianist will
produce something different. Participant 1 identified the pursuit of interpretive

15

perfection as important in his performing, and noted that this can potentially involve
disappointment:
Perfectionism can take many forms often in performance what I struggle
with is not so much things like note-perfection, but I might have an idea a more
musical concept that I want to put across, or a whole lot of musical concepts for
the whole piece and then I feel really disappointed when some of my musical
ideas dont come across.
As well as identifying this kind of perfectionistic pursuit, Participant 2 identified the
general vibe of the performance, and sheer technical execution as avenues for
perfectionism:
If its a live performance, involved in that would be the overall feel of the
performance as well, the vibe that youd have while doing it you might be able
to play something perfectly, but if you think it didnt really have the vibe, or it
didnt get the right reaction, then you wouldnt feel it was perfect. Its a
combination of all those things. But I mean, essentially, most of the time its
about our execution.
The pursuit of perfect concentration was a theme that came up primarily in interviews
with Participants 1 and 3. Participant 1, who identified with mental struggles as
associated with perfectionism, perceived striving to concentrate well in the practice
room as counter-productive:
Id play a phrase for example, and Id think I missed a note because I wasnt
concentrating well. And then thats how that obsessive-compulsive practice
actually happens because then you think Ill go and play it again and Ill
concentrate, and you dont; you keep going over it and over it and over it.
In contrast, Participant 3 strives in his performances for the ability to listen to every
note, or every sound that I make in a performance, and not to lose concentration for a
single second, and such a pursuit is for him a good thing to aim for in terms of
perfectionism.
Healthy versus unhealthy
As has been stated above, although the pursuit of perfection may be common among
pianists, there is a potential for this pursuit to be intertwined with a sense of internal
struggle. Participant 4 describes this aspect of perfectionism:
Theres that psychological battle and that psychological balancing act, between
being happy with something thats not perfect, in order to have a bit of
spontaneity, and in order to be, you know, not be suicidal at the end of
something, and that hard and critical on yourself.
16

Participant 3, who seemed to identify less with such struggles, shared a particularly
insightful perspective into how perfectionism can be unhealthy:
I think another kind of dual perspective on it is that, I think its fair to say, that
its a bad thing if its a perfectionism that is perceived by the pianist as reflecting
on them. Its a good kind of perfectionism if its perceived by the pianist as being
concerned with the music.
From his point of view, he also saw a danger in perceiving perfection as achievable:
You are probably setting yourself up for a sense of failure if you think that your
job will ever be finished, I think.
Participant 2 recognized a potential for pianists to be unhappy if their happiness is
based upon achieving the level of perfection they desire:
So many of these guys at the top are not happy, and I think a lot that has to do
with that is that they can hear what they want to do and it takes so much work
to achieve that, and they often dont get there, they dont enjoy themselves.
Another potential downfall for perfectionists described by Participant 2 occurs when
perfectionists might discount all of their positive achievements, and only focus on
their mistakes. This is an example of a perfectionistic thought described in When
Perfect Isnt Good Enough (Antony & Swinson, 2009), called filtering (see
Appendix C).
A danger identified by Participant 1 is in teaching that promotes the belief that
perfection is achievable and must be reached:
I was once told by a teacher that my Scarlatti must be perfection, and that
particular comment did not help to foster a particularly healthy approach in my
playing, because I already wanted it to be a high level of perfection, I was already
putting quite a lot of pressure on myself, and then I have a teacher putting
additional pressure on me, and that was very unhealthy for me.
As was identified in the literature, another influence on perfectionism can be
parenting styles (Ablard & Parker, 1997, p. 651). Participant 4 believed that parents
excessive criticism of mistakes could be detrimental to young people, drawing
attention to the kind of parents who are over-pushing their kids, giving their kids a
false sense of reality as well theyve gotta be the best and theyve gotta win. Its
pretty sad.
17

All of the pianists had contributions to make in terms of how they practice, and how
perfectionism influences their work. For Participant 3, there is a fine line between
obsessive practice that is healthy and that which is not. From his view it is clear that
when perfectionism is not manifesting in unhealthy ways, it provides the drive and
joy that allows one to continue pursuing new musical heights:
Theres probably a difference between healthy obsessive practice, and
unhealthy obsessive practice, and its a very fine line, and its hard to say which
is which. I think that healthy obsessive practice is essentially a kind of joyous
thing, its like kind of hard work where you get so involved with the hard work
that it becomes a kind of deep fun. And youre actually improving things through
the process.
Each of the pianists made observations about how perfectionism manifests in the
classical music industry in the current age. Participants all observed that there is
perhaps less of a focus on individuality, and more of a focus on technical perfection,
particularly in competition circuits and in the classical recording industry. Participant
3 believed that competitions often prescribe a narrow template for pianists to adhere
to, and that competition performances are often characterized by inoffensive
interpretive choices, questionable musical values, and emphasis on show-pony
type repertoire. Despite this observation, Participant 3 believed that competitions
still provide benefits to developing pianists, by providing a kind of extrinsic
motivation that can help them polish their playing to new levels. This suggests that
competitions may be most beneficial for pianists when they focus on learning goals
(increasing their competence) rather than performance goals (gaining approval of
their abilities) (Dweck & Leggett, 1988, p. 256).
In reflecting on the classical piano world, Participant 2 discussed a kind of
dichotomous perfectionism that has tended to pervade the industry, which in her
words says youre a failure if you dont become a concert pianist. She believed that
perhaps the industry is gradually moving away from this belief.
Moving forward
For Participants 1 and 4, who identified more personally with the mental struggles
associated with perfectionism, it was clear that coping strategies had been developed
to help them counteract their distress. These strategies usually involved the cultivation
18

of healthy thought patterns, particularly as related to performance. A shared theme in

the way they employed self-talk was that they both continued to remind themselves of
the pursuit of perfection as a life-long process. Realizing that they couldnt be perfect
or achieve perfection, but that it was healthy and rewarding to continually strive for
perfection in their work, allowed them to feel more at ease with their imperfections.
Participant 4 summarizes this theme:
I also try to tell myself before a performance whats the worst that can
happen? Its not a life-threatening illness that Im going through here, its just,
Im playing a concert and Im not perfect. So once you decide that youre not
perfect and you decide to stop trying to be perfect in performance, I think that
you can enjoy life better as a musician, rather than beating yourself over the head
every time something goes wrong.
Both Participants 1 and 4 also found it easier to accept imperfection when they were
performing for their own internal satisfaction, rather than to try and meet perceived
external pressures. When asked if he perceives a feeling of external pressure from the
audience, Participant 1 responded:
I think that almost everyone does, and its very difficult to overcome that I think.
Ideally, the more you focus on the music, and the more you learn to play for
yourself, then the less youd feel concerned with that.
Participants 1 and 4 also believed in the importance of maintaining a balanced life that
is not dependent on the success of pianistic pursuits. In Participant 1s words:
If youre deriving your fulfilment in life from your own perfectionistic attitude
towards piano playing, then youre not going to be a fulfilled person, inevitably,
because youll never meet your standards. I think its important to have other
activities that arent as pressured as piano playing.
Participant 4 similarly thought that it would be really healthy not to put all your eggs
in one basket because you are more than just your playing.
Among all responses, it emerged that quality of practice was seen to be the foundation
on which pianists musical progress is based. It was agreed upon that practice and
performance mentalities must be kept separate, and that perfectionistic striving is
essential in the practice room, but must be let go of when on stage. On this note,
Participant 2 reflected on past teaching she had received in which, towards the
performance, the teacher gave permission for her to forget about mistakes, and just

19

focus on capturing the vibe of the piece. Participant 2 believed this to be a helpful
way to prepare for performances.
Participant 3 claimed to approach performance with the aim of sustaining an intense,
meditative focus on the sound he produces:
Its not saying that youre going to deliver the perfect version of that piece, its
saying that basically, your awareness and your concentration will be focused on
listening for the whole performance.
He underlined the distinction that this focus is not judgemental, and that whether good
or bad, all thoughts are merely distractions; if a positive or negative judgment occurs
in his mind, he simply shifts his attention back to the sound. Though he views the
practice room as being the place where one can primarily work on individual skills,
including musical, technical, and memorization abilities, he believes that intense
concentration is a skill that needs to be practiced in the later stages of a pieces
development.
Participants all shared the view that the practice room is the place to take skills apart
and hone them. A common theme among pianists was that repetition of passages
without a clear goal could be considered unhealthy and counterproductive, whereas a
more healthy approach involves adopting a problem-solving oriented attitude. This
latter approach has been shown in the literature to lead to more adaptive perfectionism
(Lehmann et al., 2007, p. 678; Mor et al., 1995, p. 221; Rice & Lapsley, 2001, p.
166). Participant 1 identified that there are many different ways to approach a
problem, and that there isnt necessarily one correct way to go about it. For him, he
found it important to recognize that attempting to practice perfectly was a futile
endeavour, and that it was healthier to see the process of getting better at practicing as
a life-long goal:
Its not something you can learn overnight. It takes maturity. Its a skill, it
really is. I feel like Ive come a long way with it, and I feel like I have a very long
way to go, but I think its a life-long thing I dont think that anyone just wakes
up one day and can practice perfectly.
In somewhat of a contrast to Participants 1 and 4, Participant 2 views perfectionism as
not something to fight or resist, but as something to have work for you:

20

You need those standards its just, getting them to work for you. Its not getting
rid of them. Its like performance anxiety, you dont want to get rid of it, its just
getting it to work for you Not even thinking about this as a negative aspect
treating it like its your friend, you know. And just saying, well these are the
things I have to do so its happy, otherwise, you know if you treat anything badly
its going to come back at you.
This, perhaps, is the key to understanding the role of perfectionism in the pursuit of
pianistic excellence that perfectionism neednt always be viewed as negative and
that having the desire to aim for perfection allows pianists to continually grow as
musicians. Participants agreed that realising such a pursuit is an endless process helps
to free them from feeling that achieving less than perfection means failure.

21

CHAPTER FIVE: REFLECTIVE JOURNALING

Throughout the process of compiling this thesis, I made use of reflective journaling as
a means of seeking to understand what I have learnt about perfectionism from the
literature, and from the perspectives of the classical pianists who were interviewed.
Being a classical pianist myself, I was able to develop an understanding of the subject
from an insiders perspective, triangulating my experiences and insights with those of
the pianists who were interviewed.
This chapter provides structured reflections on some of my journal entries, in the
format described in the methodology chapter. This format of What?, So what?, and
Now what? involves writing about a new experience regarding perfectionism, drawing
meaning from the experience, and identifying the impact of new insights on future
music-making and personal experiences (Rolfe et al., 2001; Williams & Woolliams,
2012, p. 80).
Reflection on journal entry from 15/July/14
What?
This entry relates to my attitudes towards studio recording. My partner had suggested
to me that I should definitely consider preparing some of my current repertoire for
recording at the end of the year. The notion behind this was that polishing my
repertoire for recording would help me prepare for entering competitions in the near
future, and would be a nice record of where Im at with my playing.
My immediate reaction was no way. I asserted that my playing definitely wouldnt be
good enough for a recording, as there were bound to be imperfections. However, as
soon as the reply had left my mouth, I recognised the dysfunction in my attitude. My
response essentially was: If the recording is not going to be perfect, I may as well not
bother. Having read When Perfect Isnt Good Enough (Antony & Swinson, 2009) as
part of my research, I was able to recognize that this was a classic example of all-ornothing (dichotomous) thinking. This is the kind of thought that says if its not
perfect, its a failure.

22

So what?
I decided that it would be helpful to write a new thought, one that would be a
healthier response. This process was informed by Antony & Swinsons resource
(2009, pp. 48-49) mentioned above. In my journal, I came up with:
Making a recording of my current repertoire could provide a valuable experience
for growth. It would give me a chance to really polish my pieces. I would be
doing it for the intrinsic reward of working hard on playing music I love to a high
level, rather than for the extrinsic reward of having people like my playing.
I feel that over time, going through this process will help me reinforce more healthy
responses to situations in which my perfectionism could potentially present itself.
Now what?
Addressing other dysfunctional attitudes in this way will potentially open future
creative possibilities. This kind of perfectionism can be very restrictive, and usually
means missing out on worthwhile musical endeavours for fear of imperfections and
judgment. I aim to continue to use the skills with which this research has equipped me
to remove perfectionistic boundaries in my musical and personal growth.
Reflection on journal entry from 13/August/14
What?
This entry relates to part of the interview conducted with Participant 2. I brought up
the idea of dealing with the negative aspects of perfectionism while maintaining
the positives, to which Participant 2 responded:
Yeah, but not even thinking about this as a negative aspect treating it like its
your friend, you know. And just saying, well these are the things I have to do so
its happy, otherwise, you know, if you treat anything badly its going to come
back at you.
I was probably angling to get Participant 2 to tell me about their perceptions of the
negative aspects of perfectionism in their music-making, but the response made me
realise that they saw things from a perspective that didnt necessarily cast
perfectionism as negative.

23

So what?
I realized that although it is helpful to understand my perfectionistic tendencies, I
dont necessarily need to try to fix my perfectionism. Rather, I can learn to coexist
with it, so that changing my mindsets doesnt just become another thing to be
perfectionistic about. Simply being aware that I have perfectionistic thoughts and
tendencies and that they colour my experience in a certain way may be enough in
itself for the more unpleasant thoughts to lose emotional traction. As I reflected, to
simply realize that your perfectionistic thoughts are all that is causing you to create a
reality where you feel that the world needs you to be perfect, to realize this is perhaps
enough.
Now what?
What I will hopefully be able to bring into the future from this reflection is the ability
to accept my perfectionistic tendencies, and personality traits, all the while having a
clearer understanding of when striving for perfection in my music making is counterproductive.
Reflection on journal entry from 1/Sept/14
What?
This entry relates to part of the interview conducted with Participant 3. During the
interview process, I was aiming to find out what participants believe are the healthy
and unhealthy aspects of perfectionism, and this point made by Participant 3 struck
me as particularly insightful:
I think another kind of dual perspective on it is that I think its fair to say that its
a bad thing if its a perfectionism that is perceived by the pianist as reflecting on
them. Its a good kind of perfectionism if its perceived by the pianist as being
concerned with the music.
So what?
I took several key points away from reflecting on his perspective. First of all, it is
clear that perfectionistic tendencies will likely facilitate musicians in achieving new
levels of musical ability. However, the pursuit of trying to be perfect as a pianist is
definitely more dangerous. This kind of pursuit essentially is about trying to escape
negative judgments from our listeners and critics by being nothing but perfect. One

24

eventually realizes that this pursuit is both exhausting, and futile. Bren Brown
alludes to this problem in her book The Gifts of Imperfection (2010):
Perfectionism is a self destructive and addictive belief system that fuels this primary
thought: If I look perfect, and do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize the
painful feelings of shame, judgment, and blame (p. 57).
Now what?
Having gained this insight from reflecting on Participant 3s perspective, I can bring a
new level of mindfulness into the future of when my perfectionism is facilitating
musical growth, and when it is simply an attempt to protect myself from negative
judgment from others. If I have learnt nothing else, it is that our journey as pianists,
and musicians, is an endless pursuit, meaning that there is endless joy to be had, and
that the best way to enjoy this journey is to let go of trying to please others.

25

CHAPTER SIX: CONCLUSIONS

Drawing together discoveries made from reviewing the literature, interviewing
classical pianists, and reflecting personally on the subject as a classical pianist myself,
lead to a number of overall findings about how perfectionism can affect classical
pianists. The following section relates these findings back to the original research
questions.
Summary of findings
Research question 1: How do some classical pianists, including myself, perceive the
effect of perfectionism on the quality of their learning, performance experience, and
wellbeing?
The classical pianists interviewed identified a number of characteristics of
perfectionism, and several avenues in which it could manifest itself in their work.
Perfectionism was related to striving for high standards in playing, an ear for detail,
obsessiveness, and a degree of psychological struggle associated with negative
reactions to imperfection, which may adversely affect performance. It was thought
that perfectionism could arise in various musical areas such as technique,
interpretation, concentration, thinking, and practice habits. As a classical pianist, I
was able to relate these perspectives to my own experiences with perfectionism.
Interview participants all contributed ideas about when perfectionism may be
functional and when it may be dysfunctional. Unhealthy aspects of perfectionism
were seen as stemming from certain mindsets and thought patterns. These included
all-or-nothing type thoughts, where anything less than perfect is a failure, and the
tendency to relate self-esteem to the perceived degree of musical perfection.
Perfectionism was also seen to be dysfunctional when it involves excessive concern
of how the listener judges the pianist. These ideas shared commonalities with my own
reflections on perfectionism, namely, having been able to observe tendencies for
thinking in an all-or-nothing way and for being overly concerned about how my
playing is judged by others.

26

In order to move in a healthier direction, it was believed to be better to perform for

ones own intrinsic satisfaction, rather than as an attempt to gain external approval. It
was viewed that perfectionism might be useful when it involves striving for standards
of excellence in the practice room, and in this regard, one participant even considered
it as a kind of talent. Important to participants was the ability to separate this
mentality of striving for high standards in the practice room to being able to let go on
stage. These perceptions relate well to concepts discussed in the literature, with many
researchers identifying similar positive and negative ways in which perfectionism can
manifest. Several of the interviewed pianists described how an excessive concern for
mistakes could potentially derail their performance confidence. This reflects findings
in the literature that relate perfectionism to debilitating (rather than facilitating)
performance anxiety (Mor et al., 1995, p. 219).
Research question 2: What strategies might classical pianists implement in order to
cope more effectively with perfectionism?
Resources such as When Perfect Isnt Good Enough (Antony & Swinson, 2009)
provide a means for identifying perfectionistic thoughts that are dysfunctional, and
ways of replacing these thoughts with healthier ones. This was an approach employed
by several of the interviewed pianists, who engaged in healthy self-talk as a way of
counteracting distress related to perfectionism. There were shared mindsets adopted
by the pianists that they regarded as allowing them to strive for high standards in a
healthy way. The pianists found it helpful to focus on playing for their own intrinsic
satisfaction, rather than being concerned primarily with external judgement. It was
important for them to be able to approach practice and performance with different
mindsets, focusing on problem-solving in the practice room, and letting go when on
stage. Pianists agreed that the pursuit of perfection was an endless journey, and that
acknowledging this helped them to accept their imperfections. This particular attitude
has helped me in accepting the learning process as a life-long pursuit, one that is most
joyful when I let go of trying to avoid imperfection. This also relates to the concept of
learning goals versus performance goals, the former describing such an attitude, and
the latter having an association with dysfunctional perfectionism (Dweck & Leggett,
1988, p. 256; Ablard & Parker, 1997, p. 651). Participant 2 shared her perspective of
perfectionism as something not to be treated negatively or fought, but as something
27

potentially facilitating, and to make friends with. In my own reflective process, I have
moved towards this position of being able to accept perfectionism as part of my
personality, and as something to work with, rather than against.
Further research
Participants all identified the influence of teachers and parents on perfectionism in
music students. Researching pedagogical approaches that counteract dysfunctional
perfectionism, rather than contribute to it, would be a valuable way of helping music
students manage perfectionism more effectively. This could include providing
teachers with an understanding of how perfectionism presents and how it can be
potentially problematic. Teachers could be equipped with strategies for helping
students identify their own perfectionism, and responding in healthier ways. Further
research into how music teachers can foster learning goals over performance goals
would also potentially benefit music students who struggle with perfectionism.
Additional research into the prevalence of perfectionism in other instrument groups
and genres may provide important contrast to, and support of, the present study.
Compiling an accessible resource on perfectionism for musicians may be another way
of equipping music students and teachers with valuable knowledge on the subject.
Final words
If I have gained one major insight from the present study, it is that perfectionism can
often simply be an attempt to protect ourselves from negative criticism, and that if we
can choose to put this shield down, and delve courageously into our musical
endeavours, our desire to reach great heights will hold us in good stead.

28

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Suddarth, B. H., & Slaney, R. B. (2001). An investigation of the dimensions of
perfectionism in college students. Measurement and Evaluation in Counseling
and Development, 34, 157165.
Westney, W. (2003). The perfect wrong note: Learning to trust your musical self.
Pompton Plains, N.J.: Amadeus Press.
Williams, K., & Woolliams, M. (2012). Reflective writing. Hampshire: Palgrave
Macmillan.

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APPENDIX A: Perfectionistic thoughts measured on the Frost Multidimensional

Perfectionism Scale (Frost et al., 1990, p. 455; Stoeber & Otto, 2006, p. 299)
Personal standards

I have extremely high goals

I expect higher performance in my daily tasks than most people

It is important to me that I be thoroughly competent in everything I do

Organization

Organization is very important to me

I am an organized person

I try to be a neat person

Concern over mistakes

People will probably think less of me, if I make a mistake

If I do not do well all the time, people will not respect me

If I fail partly, it is as bad as being a complete failure

Doubts about actions

I usually have doubts about the simple everyday things that I do

I tend to get behind in my work because I repeat things over and over

Even when I do something very carefully, I often feel that it is not quite
right

Parental expectations

My parents wanted me to be the best at everything

My parents set very high standards for me

Only outstanding performance is good enough in my family

Parental criticism

As a child, I was punished for doing things less than perfect

My parents never tried to understand my mistakes

I never felt like I could meet my parents standards

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APPENDIX B: Perfectionistic thoughts measured on Hewitt & Fletts

Multidimensional Perfectionism Scale (1991, p. 470)
Self-oriented perfectionism:

It makes me uneasy to see an error in my work

One of my goals is to be perfect in everything I do

I must always be successful at school or work

Other-oriented perfectionism:

If I ask someone to do something, I expect it to be done flawlessly

I cant be bothered with people who wont strive to better themselves

Socially prescribed perfectionism:

The people around me expect me to succeed at everything I do

Anything I do that is less than excellent will be seen as poor work by those
around me

My family expects me to be perfect

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APPENDIX C: Some categories of perfectionistic thinking described in When

Perfect Isnt Good Enough (Antony & Swinson, 2009, pp. 48-53)
All-or-nothing thinking
Example statements:

Anything less than sticking to my diet perfectly is a failure. If I eat one

cookie, I may as well have eaten ten cookies

I always need to look perfect in front of other people

If I dont get an A+ in this course, I dont deserve to be in this program

Filtering
Example scenario:

Ella receives a two-page performance evaluation at work that is very positive

overall, emphasizing that she is among the most valued employees in the
company. However, she feels angry and hurt over one criticism suggesting
that she try to participate more in meetings

Catastrophic thinking
Example statements:

I couldnt handle making a mistake in front of the class

It would be absolutely terrible if I missed a deadline

If this deal doesnt go through, I dont know how I will manage

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APPENDIX D: Interview questions

In the interviews, participants were asked the following questions, although the semistructured style of the interviews meant that questions were often asked in a varied
order, or with different wording.

How would you define perfectionism?

How important an issue do you believe perfectionism is for classical pianists?

Do you have any experiences with perfectionism personally?

How do you think perfectionism could affect a musicians work in the practice
room?

How do you think perfectionism could affect a musicians experience of

performing?

How do you think perfectionism could affect a musicians wellbeing in

general?

Do you think there are ways that perfectionism could affect classical pianists
specifically? (Do they face any unique challenges?)

Have you heard of the concept of learning goals versus performance goals?
(Performance goals: in which individuals are concerned with gaining
favorable judgments of their competence, as opposed to learning goals, in
which individuals are concerned with increasing their competence)

If so, how do you think this could factor into perfectionism in musicians?

What role do you think parents and teachers of students might play in
fostering either of these types of goals?

As we know, building a successful career as a musician requires us to develop

our playing to a very high level. Do you think the competitiveness in this field
to be able to make money as a performer could factor in perfectionism?

Some studies have shown that musicians often derive their self-esteem solely
from the quality of their music making, rather than evaluating themselves
based on a balanced range of areas. Do you think this could lead to problems
with perfectionism?

With the current technology that allows us to edit recordings to noteperfectness, do you think such recordings might set unreasonable standards for

35

musicians trying to reproduce similar levels of accuracy in a live performance

setting?

Are there any strategies you think classical pianists could implement in order
to cope with perfectionism and work more effectively?

36

APPENDIX E: Participant 1 interview transcript

What do you think perfectionism is?
Perfectionism is aiming to make everything perfect, and I think it would imply aiming
to make things perfect to the point of obsession, or to the point where that aim
becomes unhealthy.
Right, so thered be a difference between an unhealthy kind of perfectionism, and
more healthy conscientiousness?
Yeah, I think so, because I think that to an extent we all have to aim for perfection, or
at least when were practicing and were working we have to refine what were doing
all the time. But then, when we become to fixated by the goal it becomes unhealthy.
So its going to the extremes?
Yeah, going to the extreme is unhealthy. And I think its important to make a division
between our approach to practice and our approach to performance. Because I think in
the practice room one has to aim for perfection and one has to stop and correct things
as they go wrong, but when the performance happens one has to let go of all of that
and learn to actually move past the mistakes that happen. Because quite often,
psychologically, when something goes wrong in a performance, the thing that goes
wrong triggers something else that goes wrong because we dont let go of it properly.
And I think thats why to an extent, in the practice room, we have to have a range of
strategies at our disposal because there are times when we might want to build an
aspect of the performance into the practice room experience we might want to play
something through from start to finish, not stopping, whatever happens, so that were
more prepared for that performance situation.
Yeah, so it would help you to be less neurotic when youre on stage
Yeah and I think thats really important.
Are there any particular aspects of piano playing that you think perfectionism would
affect?
Well, the obvious thing is that its tempting to expect that things are going to be note
perfect, which it almost never can be in reality because were all human; were going
to make a mistake at one point or another. And perfectionism can take many forms
often in performance what I struggle with is not so much things like note-perfection,
but I might have an idea a more musical concept that I want to put across, or a
whole lot of musical concepts for the whole piece and then I feel really disappointed
when some of my musical ideas dont come across. That can be an issue of
perfectionism for me. Its not just accuracy, its that not everything I wanted to put
across has come across. And so I think then whats important for me to realize in
looking back on the performance and reflecting on it is that, in terms of things that I
might not be happy with in the performance, theres things such as a wrong note
which might be an obvious mistake, and one that the audience might notice, and
theres also things like missing a note that nobody in the audience might hear. And

37

then there are those goals that I have, more musical goals, that the audience isnt
aware of and something might come out differently to how I expect but the audience
doesnt actually feel that because they dont come into the performance with a preconception they dont know what it is Im expecting, that Im intending, for each
moment. Theyre more open-minded; they dont have a preconceived concept of the
performance.
So you think having particular mental strategies for dealing with it is important, and
telling yourself certain things
Absolutely. I think there has to be that decision I find for me, this is something that
Ive struggled with for years that I have to decide when Im going to do a
performance I have to tell myself that its okay if I make a mistake and that it doesnt
have to be perfect, if a mistake happens, Im going to move forward from it because
too many times somethings gone wrong and Ive just let it get to me, and it unravels
the experience for me for the rest of the performance.
That leads into another question I had theres a lot of research that shows that
musicians tend to derive their self-esteem solely from their playing, rather than a
balanced range of life areas. Do you think that might be a factor in perfectionism as
well?
Yeah, definitely. I think thats something that Ive also learnt a lot about in recent
times. I think its really important to derive meaning and significance in life from a
range of sources and not just one thing especially if that one thing is perfectionistic.
Because if youre deriving your fulfillment in life from your own perfectionistic
attitude towards piano playing, then youre not going to be a fulfilled person,
inevitably, because youll never meet your standards. I think its important to have
other activities that arent as pressured as piano playing.
That sounds like a good strategy that musicians could implement. Something else
Ive been thinking about: theres this concept of learning goals versus performance
goals, and performance goals are where individuals are concerned with gaining
favourable judements of their competence, and learning goals are where individuals
are concerned with increasing their competence. So its the difference between being
focused on the overall outcome, versus the process of improvement and learning.
Could that be relevant to perfectionism?
Yeah for me, what helps in terms of coping with perfectionism is that I need to put
an emphasis on my own development and how Im progressing. So it helps me, at the
end of a performance, to think that that performance is better than the last
performance Ive done that Ive improved as a player. Putting the emphasis on that,
rather than how perfect it was or how the audience perceived it, I can at least be
happy with the fact that it has improved. In general I find that I do improve, and I
think its normal when we work hard on something and when we stay focused on
something that we improve in what were doing.
I think thats a very healthy way to look at it much more learning focused than
performance focused. Theres a similar concept Ive been reading about, where some
people have a fixed mindset and some people have a growth mindset. The fixed

38

mindset is where people think they have a certain amount of fixed aibiity, so that they
constantly have to keep proving themselves all the time, and people with a growth
mindset believe that no matter what abilities one has, one is able to grow.
Thats an interesting idea and thats a hard one because I think people do have
different levels of ability I dont think that were all equally suited to playing the
piano and even if people like Dorothy Taubman have argued fairly successfully that
almost everyone is equally physically suited to playing the piano, there are so many
factors beyond physicality and physiology. When it comes to playing an instrument
we have different concentration spans, we have different intellects, we have different
sensitivity. What certainly cannot be denied is that people have different levels of
interests, and I would see talent as largely being the love of doing something and the
desire to do something, the ability to focus on something.
Speaking of Dorothy Taubman, do you think there are possibly aspects of
perfectionism in the Taubman Approach to piano technique?
Its interesting you should bring that up Definitely, because the Taubman approach
is extraordinary in its ability to actually assist pianists to overcome technical
problems, and certainly for me, in learning the Taubman Approach, whats actually
happened is that in the early stages there was a peak in that perfectionism because the
approach was helping me so much with my technique, and I almost had the
impressions in my lessons that any technical problem could actually be solved. And
that made me think that everything can be solved When I was practicing and in my
lessons working on the small sections, we were actually able to perfect them
however to define perfect. But then I had to learn how to put everything back together
again, and that Im still human, and thats the thing you can develop and you can
refine technique, and you can make things efficient and reliable on a micro level, but
then when you put things back together and youre under performance pressure, then
everyone ends up being a human again.
Thats probably something important to remember. On another note, do you think
parents and teachers of students perhaps play a role in fostering either healthy
mindsets or perfectionism?
Absolutely I think that in terms of teachers, of course they play an incredibly
significant role, because theyre the ones who are guiding the students approach to
performance, and to practice, and to all of their life as a musician really. I was once
told by a teacher that my Scarlatti must be perfection, and that particular comment did
not help to foster a particularly healthy approach in my playing, because I already
wanted it to be a high level of perfection, I was already putting quite a lot of pressure
on myself, and then I have a teacher putting additional pressure on me, and that was
very unhealthy for me. Because I think there are a number of pressures that are
unhealthy when it comes to approaching practice: one is trying to be perfect, the other
is trying to be the best, because for almost any of us, neither of those two things are
going to be possible ultimately. So I think its better to put the focus on the music and
certainly what I feel in approaching the music is that my own desire to actually do
justice to the repertoire that Im playing is more than enough of a pressure without
someone coming in telling me it has to be perfect, with me already telling myself that
it has to be perfect. I think another pressure for me is having people there to listen to

39

me having an audience I always feel like it is a real honor to have people actually
listening to me, so I feel like thats enough of a pressure even when theyre people
whore just coming to enjoy it without any added pressure, people expecting it to be
perfect, or comparing me, or anything like that.
Thats interesting. Do you feel that when youre performing theres a sense of
pressure from the audience?
Yeah, I think that almost everyone does, and its very difficult to overcome that I
think. Ideally, the more you focus on the music, and the more you learn to play for
yourself, then the less youd feel concerned with that. But thats a very tricky one I
can remember reading a quote from Yehudi Menuhin that was something along the
lines of an artists presence is most strongly felt when they are focused and totally
disregarding the audience, which I thought was an interesting concept, that when we
actually are so focused on our art and not focusing on the audience that its then that
we actually draw the audience in to what were actually doing. I think thats a very
fascinating paradox.
Yeah I know that some people might say that opposite, that its about giving
something to the audience, then some people will say as you said that its about you
playing the music, and the audience observes.
Yeah, I think it is about giving something to the audience, but I think you give
something to the audience just by being there, and being focused on what youre
doing. Then theres the issue of how you present yourself to the audience, how you
walk and off and bowing and all that kind of thing, which is a different topic to what
youre discussing
Yeah speaking of performing, versus recording, do you think that the advent of the
modern recording studio, where everything is able to be edited to a high level of note
perfection, do you think that might add pressure on musicians today?
Yeah, I think thats a very well known issue, and its intriguing to think that in
different eras, people wouldnt have had the same expectations of perfection. When
we think that there was a time where live music was the only way people could access
repertoire theyre playing
Yeah, a different era. Musicians seem to have a different focus these days. If you
listen to some of the old recordings of golden age pianists, theyre less concerned
with mistakes
Yeah, theyre less perfect. For me, when I think of pianists like Horowitz for
example, theyre recordings I have listened to from when he was quite old. So I think
that if youre talking about golden age recordings youve got to factor in the age that
people are when they actually make them. Because quite possibly they were more
accurate players when they were younger.
Yeah. Do you think that the nature of the musical career, and that it can be so
competitive, the competition to actually succeed and make a living from music might
fuel perfectionism?

40

Absolutely, because I think theres this awareness that in order to succeed, I do have
to actually distinguish myself from other people by making my playing more
beautiful and more refined than theirs is. And thats a reality that is not something I
can escape from unless I decide that I wanted to focus completely on teaching for
example, or on some less competitive form of performance such as accompanying
students. There are types of performance that are not as competitive and not as
perfectionistic. If you take for example something that doesnt interest me so much:
gig playing, in that world its not so competitive, and theres not that same emphasis
on perfectionism.
Yeah, perhaps its something unique to classical piano?
Well, I wouldnt say just classical piano. Ive worked with a lot of string players who
are incredibly perfectionistic, to the point where its a serious mental health issue. I
think its an issue that affects all classical musicians. And also the singing world,
definitely.
Speaking of mental health issues, do you think there are particular ways that
perfectionism affects musicians wellbeing generally?
Absolutely, because I think the ways in which we train our minds to work in the
practice room can actually have an impact on the ways our brains work outside of the
practice room, in our lives generally. I think that because our brains are living, and
plastic, we train them to work in a particular way, and certainly over the years Ive
underestimated the extent to which the way I practice actually impacts my whole life,
and the sense that actually that perfectionistic attitude towards practice has actually
become reflected in other areas. Yeah, its very interesting, and I remember a few
years ago I had a piano teacher who was suffering from depression, and I remember
him telling me that he actually blamed the onset of his depression on his
perfectionistic attitudes towards performance, which I thought was very interesting,
and he was wanting to caution me in case being too perfectionistic is a potential threat
to my mental wellbeing.
Well, theres been a lot of links in research between perfectionism and depression, so
thats definitely valid.
I find that interesting because I would have expected that there would be links
between perfectionism and anxiety disorders, especially obsessive-compulsive
disorder. But I would not have not have necessarily thought that perfectionism and
depression. And certainly anxiety, people whove suffered from depression also suffer
from anxiety. In my case, I struggle with anxiety, but I dont struggle with depression
at all, so I cant relate to depression. But I know that for me it becomes an anxiety
issue. As a perfect example for me theres text messages, which became a major
obsession for me, and I would actually approach the writing of every single text
message in the way that I would actually approach practicing a piece of music, and
not only would I want it to be perfect in terms of spelling and grammar, I would also
expect it to actually flow in a certain way, and have a certain shaping and sense of
balance, in the way that a piece of music would. And with emails it would be the
same, Id have to consider the overall layout of the text. For example, if I had a

41

greeting and one sentence of introduction, and I had another paragraph underneath,
that Id want for example one sentence to end with so it would be quite symmetrical;
Id want the overall shaping of the message to actually be well constructed. And then,
theres this problem with Gmail and other email services, that when you send it, the
spacing that you put all that thought and effort into is destroyed! It used to be this
thing for me, I used to get really angry about it, because Id put all this effort into it,
and it would just then destroy it.
Are there any particular type of coping strategies that you think would be helpful to
combat that kind of perfectionism?
Yeah, I think that we already discussed some of them in terms of our attitude to
practice, our attitude to performance, and the ways in which we can correctly divide
between our practice attitude and our performance attitude, and I think that those are
the most significant ones in terms of things that would be relevant to your study. In
terms of other strategies, I think that its actually helpful to create a divide between
your practice and your attitude towards performance, and other things as my teacher
of many years ago told me, you have to actually create a division between how you
might approach working on a piece of music and how you might approach other
things in life, whether it be writing emails or other things.
Yeah, I guess it comes back to not totally centering yourself on your musical work?
Yeah, and around your own perfectionism you have to find some kind of outlet and
sense of meaning thats not derived from the competitiveness of perfection. Thats an
interesting thing with me, with emails and text messages, and Im not as much like
this anymore, that it used to be competitive if I got a long email from someone, I
would copy the text into Microsoft Word to ascertain how many words it was, and it
would have to be that my reply would have to be a similar length or longer. Id feel
intimidated if it was really long, and mine would have to be better than theirs. And
then when I get text messages, Ill critique them. And I can tell sometimes if someone
else whos sent me a message is perfectionistic as well, because I can tell if theyve
rewritten it once, or lots of times, or thought about it. And interestingly, when
someones put more time into something that theyve written, tiny things show up
more. Its like with string players, who are very refined and have very good
intonation, if a tiny thing is wrong with the intonation itll stick out like a sore thumb.
But with someone whos intonation isnt as good overall, little things arent as
obvious. With people who send me these perfect text messages, Ill be like Oh! They
put a dash there, and the flow and the shaping wouldnt be as good. I obsess over it
less these days I havent had a major breakdown over an email or a text message in
some time now.
Why do you reckon you do it less now?
Lots of things Id say the more stressed I am, the more Im likely to obsess over
things and be perfectionistic. Because Im less stressed, Im less perfectionistic in my
attitudes towards things. Or Im able to focus more as Im doing things as well, thats
the thing, for me, when I check things too much, its because theres too much in my
brain and I cant focus on what Im doing. And its that whole thing where I used to
practice badly Id play a phrase for example, and Id think I missed a note because

42

I wasnt concentrating well. And then thats how that obsessive-compulsive practice
actually happens because then you think Ill go and play it again and Ill
concentrate, and you dont; you keep going over it and over it and over it. Its that
process of going back over things, trying to concentrate on them, that has then
become reflected in other aspects of my life.
So how do you address that problem of looping over and over? What would you do
instead?
Thats an interesting question you have to come to the practice with an attitude that
problems can be solved, and that youre capable of solving them. Because another
thing I was told by a former teacher that wasnt helpful is that I was never going to
be a brilliant virtuoso, and that was something that wasnt helpful for me because it
became very engrained in my mind and that I was a musical person and she
would tell me that I was a musical person, which is encouraging, and empowering to
an extent but because it was so engrained that I wasnt gifted technically, that I
didnt come to the practice with the attitude that I was capable of overcoming things.
And I think thats the first step to developing good practice habits to believe that
you are actually capable, and that problems that happen can actually be solved. And
then its a matter of asking yourself, what do I need to do to solve this? So if
something comes unstuck, then asking why? and developing some kind of strategy
to actually overcome it and it might a simple strategy like Im going to play it more
slowly, then play it more quickly, or it might be Im going to play it hands
separately and then put it back together, or it might be something more analytical
you might draw on Taubmans principles of healthy movements. The possibilities are
endless.
Right, so its about being proactive rather than self-destructive?
Yeah, thats a good summary of it, definitely.
Thats most of my questions really, is there anything more you wanted to add?
Yeah, I think theres more I could say about practicing, and about, as you suggested,
theres an approach to specific things that happen in the practice room, and theres
also the importance of actually breaking the practice up. And I believe strongly in not
practicing more than about 3-4 hours a day. I know that different people have
different concentration spans, and so if Im not capable of doing more than 3 hours
and concentrating effectively, thats not to say that no one else is, but at the same time
Im very skeptical of people who say that they practice 6 hours hours a day and
theyre so focussed on the music. I perhaps shouldnt listen to other people
practicing, but because the sound proofing at the Con is so bad, inevitably, I do hear
them practicing. I hear people who say that theyre focused on the music when theyre
practicing, and theyre just going over things in that loopy kind of way, and theyre
not self involved, and not thinking musically, and I can hear theyre not.
Do you think one should divide musical work and technical work?
Not necessarily it depends. Very often, thinking musically helps overcome the
technical problems, and I prefer to approach it in that way, because I feel more

43

experienced and more capable of approaching things that way. My current teacher has
given me the ability to actually solve problems by approaching them from a more
physiological/technical aspect, but I still dont feel experienced enough to actually
apply that very often. Generally Im better off just looking to the music to solve the
problem. There are times when it can be helpful to think, Okay, Im not going to try
to treat this as a piece of music, Im not going to try and be expressive or musical, Im
just going to work out how to leap from one note to the next.
So its all about different practice strategies?
Yeah, I think the trouble with practice is that there are so many different strategies.
Almost anything can work the only thing I can remember Michele Walsh saying in
her lecture about practice is that theres nothing that you can do in practice that is
wrong, other than repetition for the sake of repetition. For me, my approach to
practice depends on a lot of factors. It depends on the nature of the repertoire that Im
actually working on. A few weeks ago when I was preparing a Mozart concerto to
play with an orchestra, my practice methods varied significantly from my current
methods Ive been employing over the last few weeks in preparing orchestral excerpts
for an orchestral audition.
So it depends on the nature of the problem?
It depends on the nature of the problem, the nature of the repertoire, the nature of the
timeframe how much time you have, how close you are to the performance... many,
many factors. I think that we have to accept that the development of technique is a
gradual process that begins from our very first piano lesson, and keeps going more or
less until we die. And so is our understanding of musicality and musicianship. And so
is our ability to practice it isnt something you can learn to do overnight, it takes
years to develop. It can be another form of perfectionism to go into a practice room
and expect that the quality of the practice is going to be fantastic. We should aim to
make it fantastic, but it takes time to learn how to do that. I think that too often Ive
been frustrated with my inability to concentrate effectively, and again, Ive learnt that
I have to treat as another problem to be solved, rather than reacting to it emotionally,
or self-destructively, actually you have to think that Ok, Im struggling to
concentrate why?
So, stepping back from every problem?
Stepping back from every problem, even the overall problems of actually how to
practice. And I think thats a big part of the problem in terms of people getting
repetitive strain injuries people do not know how to practice, and they need to learn
how to practice, and that takes a long time. I think that when I hear of first years
practicing 6 hours a day, I think, Well, if theyre doing that because theyre so
passionate about the music then fantastic. Id hate to go up to them and say well
dont practice so much. I think that people who are passionate should be encouraged
to be passionate, and should be encouraged to explore things. I think, in general, at
that point, theyre not going to know how to practice. At that stage, in first year, I
dont think I knew how to practice, and Im still learning how to practice, but I think
that if at this point Im only about to concentrate effectively for 2-3 hours, when I was
in first year, I wouldnt be capable of doing anything near that much. I think that if I

44

was teaching younger students, I wouldnt tell them to go and practice hours and
hours on end I think that people need to learn how to do that. You wouldnt give
someone whos not very mature a 60-minute piano piece to learn and perform, when
theyre still learning how to play a 5-minute piano piece because longer pieces of
music require more stamina, longer concentration, and more understanding. I think
its the same with practice its something that we develop. Theres still a lot of
people who feel like its just about clocking up hours I think the quantity is
significant, its not just quality for sure, but I think that we need to put more of an
emphasis on the quality. I can remember I went once to a lecture on practice, and I
told one of my teachers that Id been to that, and she made a very sarcastic comment,
something like well why? Whats the point of talking about practice when you could
be practicing?. Actually, the way in which you practice is very significant. When Im
at the Con and I hear people practicing, the issue from my point of view is people not
knowing how to practice. People do not know how to practice they think theyre
practicing but theyre not. Thats actually a quote I can remember from one of the
staff at the Con, who practices there, and she and I had a conversation, and we were
talking about how people dont know how to practice. Sarcastically, she said You
think youre practicing, but youre not. Im sorry. I thought that that was hilarious.
Its true, people need to think more about what theyre doing while theyre practicing
rather than going through the motions.
You do hear good things and bad things, but largely, I think the quality of the
performance depends on the quality of the practice. Theres playing at the
conservatorium thats of a very high quality, and I think that that reflects the amount
of thought thats gone into it, to an extent, and theres playing thats of a lesser
quality, and that probably reflects the lesser quality of work thats being put into it.
Do you think that all musicians are capable of improving their practice?
I think so, but its not something you can learn overnight. It takes maturity. Its a skill,
it really is. I feel like Ive come a long way with it, and I feel like I have a very long
way to go, but I think its a life long thing I dont think that anyone just wakes up
one day and can practice perfectly.
Thanks very much for answering my questions.

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APPENDIX F: Participant 2 interview transcript

What do you think perfectionism is?
Crap well it is crap! Well, I suppose as it applies directly to piano playing being
able to deliver the sound, or the performance of a particular work that your ear tells
you that it wants to hear. And to feel the way you want to feel when youre playing. I
think both those two things combined being able to nail both those things, you can
say, that was perfect.
Yeah, striving for that end goal?
Yeah, but then of course if its a live performance, involved in that would be the
overall feel of the performance as well, the vibe that youd have while doing it you
might be able to play something perfectly, but if you think it didnt really have the
vibe, or it didnt get the right reaction, then you wouldnt feel it was perfect. Its a
combination of all those things. But I mean, essentially, most of the time its about
our execution.
Technical things?
Yeah, things like that.
In terms of the ways it might manifest in the practice room, does it come up in
working tirelessly, or getting technical things as perfect as possible?
I think so, in certain works I think it depends what youre playing, or what you
want to play, and what comes easy to you what challenge there is, if you like the
repertoire or not. But I think perfectionism is also if youre talking about something
like late Beethoven I mean technically its obviously not easy or anything youre
dealing with concept, you know? Nailing down what is perfect about that that can
be debilitating. I mean even people like Martha Argerich saying she doesnt want to
play the Beethoven concertos thats a perfectionism problem isnt it?
Yeah, theres that funny thing about not being able to do it right?
Yeah. She plays the early ones but not the later ones.
So do you think theres healthy aspects of perfectionism and unhealthy aspects?
Yes, I do. I mean, if you didnt have, I suppose, an ear for detail I suppose thats
what perfectionism is in a way then youd be shit!
You need that side of it, the striving for goals
Yeah, I think so. I only teach a lot of younger students at the moment when youve
been wrapped up in the industry for so long with a lot of your colleagues and peers
who are of the same level, you forget what its like to start off, and how obvious talent
can look. Yeah you consider some people who just can listen, and hear things

46

that should be changed. I suppose thats perfectionism. They just have an ideal thats
beyond what other people can hear.
Yeah, theyve got something in mind theyre striving for?
Yeah, but it can be debilitating, because I think, if youre playing, for instance, for an
uneducated audience, then whats the point of being a perfectionist when they cant
hear it? I find that personally really frustrating when youve been slaving away on
something and they cant even hear what youre doing (thats a lovely piece!.
cant you just play something thats got nicer melodies?).
Thats a killer. Going back to teaching students, do you think that teachers and
parents can play a part in whether students have issues with perfectionism or not?
When you say issues with perfectionism, you mean that they that they get cramped
by the idea of perfectionism, and it becomes a problem?
Yeah, excessive concern over not getting things right.
Yeah, thats an interesting one I think, judging from some of. When I had some
better teaching when I was younger, it was always in those last lessons, where wed
been working in detail up to it, and in those last lessons it was more about getting the
feel about the performance so forget about all that!, you know, getting the vibe of
the thing youd make a mistake and theyd say, dont worry about that, its about
the vibe of the thing. Were giving a performance now. I mean its different with
competitions I suppose, if youre really aiming for a high level, because then it does
matter if you miss your G#.
Yeah, so do you think maybe that the nature of the musical career these days might
make pianists a little more perfectionistic than in the past, because theres a large
focus on competitions?
Absolutely, I think it gives prominence to a different type of musician now. I think
some that perhaps have a natural focus less on courage, and I suppose on taking
chances and giving themselves personally on stage but people who are able to
deliver a large work easily, those sorts of people get ahead better in our current
climate. Simply because of, I think, competitions and the recording industry
Thats another one I was going to ask about because of the recording industry and
how its developed, now we can have these perfect recordings
Thatve been edited within an inch of their lives!
Yeah, maybe that puts a lot of pressure on musicians?
Absolutely, absolutely. Its because the audiences and everyone, is so used to
hearing perfect versions now. I mean, it depends I think it might also have to do
with how people are educated. I think its that combination I know I ideally want in
a performer and thats why there are so very few who get to the top are those who
have that courage, and do take chances, but are also able to nail it. But mind you, I

47

know that when I listen to live recordings of them, and they make a mistake, its
almost a good thing? You know, it feels good! But if youre in a competition, you
know, youd be out. Even just tiny mistakes. I can remember for instance, when I
was in that Keri-Keri competition, I played the Appassionata and I mean I always
make mistakes, Im just one of those people but there was just one of those single
line runs down, they always freak me out in Beethoven. You know you can do them
so easily in practice, but you get to the stage and youre like, Ah, shit! And it was
just a little stutter, between one semitone, and I was just getting some feedback from
the adjudicator afterwards, and it really surprised me that he he was going back
through the general things he was looking for, and he pointed to that exact bar, to that
exact note, and said what happened there?, and I said, I made a mistake. It was
like, whats wrong with you?, whatd you do?
Do you think thats the kind of teacher that might foster problematic thinking patterns
in students?
I think in the wrong people it could. Yeah I think a lot of things also in this
industry, and I suppose in every industry, it depends on the personality as well. It
really does.
Yeah, or perhaps the people that tend more towards already being quite selfpunishing dont necessarily need a teacher who is also going to treat them like
theyre stupid?
Absolutely, I agree with you. I think it would show great intelligence on the part of
the teacher to be able to pick up on that in the student, and to know which parts to
encourage them in, and which parts to just let lie.
Yeah. Do you think thered be any particular strategies thatd be helpful for those
kind of students to implement while theyre working on something in the practice
room? To not get excessively concerned with mistakes and perfection?
Yeah, its an interesting one I dont know well actually, I was talking to a
psychologist once, and I think he sort of touched on this subject he was talking
about an Olympic diver who was crippled by a lack of confidence, and one of the
things he suggested to her, because she was so down on herself everytime she missed
one of her dives, or made a mistake in one of her dives, and he said, Well, yeah,
okay, you make mistakes sometimes. What I want you to do is write out how many
dives you do, and I want you to put a red dot next to all the ones you did right, and a
blue dot next to the ones you get wrong. And it seems like a stupid thing to do, but
she looked down at it and realized, Well, I only buggered up 3, and I got 27 right.
Lets look at the reality of the situation that helped her get some reality back in the
situation, so she could go, Okay, Im not shit.
Its a bit of distorted thinking perhaps. Ive had to read a lot from the field of
psychology for my research, and theres different kinds of distorted thinking that
one is a really good example where they might only look at whats wrong, and
completely disregard all the positives, so

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Exactly. But I think in piano playing, for a lot of people, it really is up to ones self to
sort these things out as best you can. It think, finding a teacher who can help you with
these things, in my experience unless youre really lucky youre just not going to
find them, most of the time. Youve just got to sort it out yourself; find your own
way.
Yeah, thats something Ive found too youve just got to figure it out. No one can
really solve your problems for you, youve just gotta to nut it out.
Yeah, and really often it does come down to the basics that you learnt when you were
younger, where as you get older, theyre harder to install, because youre more time
poor, more spread over many areas, youve got to start looking after yourself as
opposed to people looking after you. Things like a regularity in practice, and
numerous performances of a work before a stressful occasion. Things like that which
really do get so much harder to organize. But when you look back, when I look back
and it was all set up for me, under the age of 12 at least you might still have
problems in performances with perfectionism, but its not as bad? Because youve
been leading up to it?
Yeah, youre a little more used to it?
Yeah, exactly youve prepped your brain to be able to deal with the stress of the
work youre doing.
Thats interesting. Do you think there are any other strategies to deal with the
performance side of things getting in the right space and not being excessively
concerned about what might go wrong?
Yeah its always preparation isnt it. Preparation for what you personally need. I
think a lot of that has to do with whats really hard in any aspect of life being really
honest with yourself. Really honest. You know, am I prepared for this? Yeah Im
prepared for this.. Am I prepared for this? . No. Asking those questions, you
know?
I like that. Theres another thing I was going to mention theres a particular
concept that Ive been reading about learning goals versus performance goals.
Performance goals are where individuals are concerned with gaining favorable
judgements of their competence, versus learning goals, in which individuals are
concerned with increasing their competence. So its the difference between focusing
on the outcome of the performance rather than the learning process. Do you think
that thats an area where it might make a difference in perfectionism trying to focus
more on the learning goals instead of the performance goals?
Yeah, that could work both ways, really. Because if youre working on learning goals
for yourself, like working out how to play octaves better. And in the performance
people are really impressed, but you know yourself that they should be a lot better.
Thats one aspect, but then theres the opposite aspect as well of if the audience is
not impressed but you know youve improved yourself. Theres two aspects of that.
Gosh, its hard isnt it? Its really fucking hard. I dont know, I think so much of it
some people are more built for the industry and cope with these sort of things, but I

49

mean if you look at anyone who achieves to the best of their ability the first place
we can go to is sports people, because its a similar type of pursuit, without that
artistic side think of all the people who assist them? They have weekly
psychologists, who even council their coaches on how to assist them. You know,
theyre all seeing these people to assist the mind games thats behind this, so you can
work to the best of your ability. Its weird that the arts doesnt have that really. Its
weird, its sort of like its by chance that you make it. (saracasm) You have to come
from a stable family, with a loving mum and dad, a good income, and a good practice
environment.
And the idea that youve got talent or you dont?
Yeah its awkward but I think really half the challenge of being any kind of
pianist and Im not one of those people who think, youve made it if youve
become a concert pianist, I mean, great, if you want to do that, but some people
might choose not to because its a shit life really, who wants to do that anyway,
Ive digressed. Perfectionism!
I was going to ask, in terms of ways that musical institutions could help students
because you mentioned that sportsmen have teams of people helping them, and
musicians have nothing do you think theres particular ways that musicians could
be assisted better?
Absolutely, absolutely. I think musicians also suffer, because at least sportspeople
usually have a healthy body to assist their healthy mind, and musicians dont.
We dont exercise!
We sit indoors all day, we dont have natural serotonins and endorphins, and all the
stuff those guys have we just sit on our arses.
I guess we could get quite miserable sitting down all day.
Yeah, I mean it works for some people obviously, the people who are the chain
smokers and that, all that sort of stuff. I definitely think there are ways to help
musicians, but from what I can see from the way conservatoriums are going, theyre
less and less enthused about producing top performers, theyre more interested in
producing, I dont know, media people
Portfolio musicians?
Yeah, well portfolio is something I embrace, because the top concert pianists are
portfolio musicians. I mean, look at Piers, hes a concert pianist, but hes an artistic
director, hes also a teacher. Theres a lot of things he consults and liases with young
people hes a portfolio pianist.
Do you think theres more aspect on the business side these days, do you think thats
helpful?

50

Yeah, well I think its just, not reaching that same standard of performance there
seem to be people at the top making decisions, where they think that that doesnt
matter anymore, or they dont realize what it takes to get there. And so they would not
be particularly be interested in sinking money into assisting people to get to that
level I dont know.
Theyre a little pessimistic about it maybe? Like, they dont have a chance kind of
thing?
Yeah, maybe. I dont know what the answer is. Ive come to think that some people
actually dont hear the difference between someone really good and someone average.
They just dont know. I think if you havent been near it yeah, or exposed to it to
some degree, I suppose, how can you know?
Yeah, maybe it would help to have someone who really knows what theyre talking
about in charge of the institution?
Yeah, I cant help but think that, at least somewhere near the top. But thats the
problem - theyre busy dealing with issues like perfectionism in their own life, theyre
usually not going to be doing heaps which is why its terrific to go overseas to
some of these places where they are run by people like well at Royal College,
Vanessa Latarche, who has had a performance career, and then who is also capable of
being an administrator, and a good head of department.
Yeah, so is she director?
Shes head of Keyboard but yeah, someone like that whos yeah there was some
more admin she was involved in Im sure. But shes able to do that sort of work some
people in some departments in Australia arent as good at. You know, head of
department to me means knowing all the students names and encouraging them into
certain programs, you know. Not just their own studio and thats it. I dont know,
portfolio musicians but yeah. Weve digressed again. Perfectionism!
Yeah. Do you have any particular experiences of it yourself?
Absolutely. I suppose perfectionism maybe its another term for performance
anxiety. Maybe its all wrapped up in that same thing. Absolutely, absolutely.
Wanting to get the best thats the thing once your ears have been opened to
certain sounds, you cant ignore it anymore. Youve got to do those extra hours to get
to that standard, otherwise you simply cannot perform with the confidence that you
want to. But perhaps some other people could who dont need that stuff.
Yeah, or it might be that some people dont need to meet as high a standard to feel
satisfied about the performing. If theyre a perfectionist theyre not going to be
satisfied unless its perfect, which it never will be.
Absolutely. Which makes accompanying quite difficult. Depending on who youre
accompanying, and what role youre playing, you know, often I dont feel
comfortable sight reading or learning something extremely quickly and playing it in a
decent environment. I mean if its APDP, whatever, you know I still like to play to a

51

certain standard so I can make music, but some people are happy to go, Ah yeah, Im
just playing notes, whatever. That would make me feel like shit to live with myself
if I did that! I would hate that. Or theres also the concept of for pianists Just play
on a keyboard, youll be alright. Youve been asked to play a whole chamber music
concert on a keyboard Yeah, just play it on a keyboard! No! I cant make music
on a keyboard! Sorry, I can do Oompa on a keyboard, but I cant play Schumann
Fantasie on a keyboard. Maybe thats a type of perfectionism as well.
Yeah. I think when its a non-pianist asking a pianist to play on a keyboard, they just
dont understand what the issue is maybe?
The good ones do.
Thats true.
Yeah its a frustrating problem. Once again, its an honesty problem were having
in Brisbane as Id say Nooo! Im not doing it on a keyboard! You have to get a piano
for this concert.
Yeah. Well, thats a lot of the questions I was going to ask really. Its interesting
seeing how different people see the issue, and how different people learn to cope with
it if its a thing for them.
Im sure most good pianists will admit to perfectionist problems. The ones that dont
are either psychopaths or theyre too worried about how they appear that theyre
lying.
Thats interesting. A lot of the research Ive been doing has shown that often, for
people who are highly conscientious, the negative sides of perfectionism are often
attached to that its something that often goes with being a highly conscientious
person.
Mmm. And its probably something to do with the fact that when they interview
someone like Richter, hell say I hate myself. So many of these guys at the top are
not happy, and I think a lot that has to do with that is that they can hear what they
want to do and they it takes so much work to achieve that, and they often dont get
there, they dont enjoy themselves.
Yeah, they set a bar so high that they can never be happy. Actually, that was another
thing that I was going to ask a lot of the research has shown that often musicians
tend to derive their self-esteem solely from the level of their music-making.
Thats dangerous.
Do you think thats a related issue?
Yes. I think it effects musicians personalities, how they interact socially, how they
run their lives, what age they die at I think its extremely related. And once again,
going back to sport, you inevitably hear interviews with swimmers and people like
that who said Oh yes, I failed at that Olympic games because I put so much pressure

52

on myself for that one event, that I hadnt diversified all I was was that race, and it
was too much pressure and they went back the next time and theyve started doing
some other things for fun in their life that didnt necessarily detract from that but it
just gave them the confidence to say Oh, I do this, and I do this; this is just
something that I do, its the most important thing I do, but if I fail this, Ill still be able
to go home and play in my band at home and see my friends, and have this other side
to my life.
Yeah, so before youre a pianist or before youre a sportsman, youre still a human
being?
Yeah, and I think its incredibly difficult to get the right balance there because then if
you go too far that way then your art suffers, and then you feel all guilty, and you beat
yourself up again!
Its a balancing act?
Yeah, I think almost every day its that, because then you get to the point when you
try and make a living and try and balance that, I mean look at me this isnt exactly
what I want to be doing! [Referring to filling in for boss while hes away] Trying to
pay my rent! You know, this is not exactly putting my music career first although I
am sitting here writing a grant. Its awful
Thats something I need to learn how to do actually
Its crazy.
Yeah, thats really most of my questions, unless theres any other ideas you had about
it or ways you come to the practice room that allow you to be more productive?
Well, as far as coming to the practice room and being productive, I think one of the
main things that works for me is making sure Ive tied up all the other loose ends in
my other work, so I can do that. And then go, Okay, the only thing I have to do, in
the short term, is practice this. Youre coming to it with a clean mind.
Rather than being scattered?
Yeah, I mean youve seen how that character focuses he gets everything just
right you just sit there and think! I dont know, some people dont have to
operate that way some people can work in a melee, but I find my work is not
good then my works not clean, its messy? It reflects what Ive been doing. It
reflects my mind. If its clean, and precise I think it helps a lot. Especially when
youve got all these devices, and people emailing you every second.
Yeah, people get angry if you just want to turn off your phone and practice why
didnt you pick up?
And I think its incredibly these devices enable people to be incredibly rude! They
think talk to me now! Talk to me now! Its like, No, I do stuff! Text me back
now, text me back now! Thats really rude actually, when you think about the

53

concept. I think if you get back to someone within 24 hours I think thats fine!
Same with emails. They want you to write back now. Its like, Im doing something
Maybe it reflects their own email obsession
Yeah, yeah! Absolutely. Its something we have to consider now. Gone are the days
when we can get from A to B in a stage coach and itll take us 6 weeks to adjust.
Yeah, we have so many more reasons to be all over the place these days.
Yeah, well its also this whole public image thing. That even the lesser of us in the
industry even have to worry about to a certain extent. You know, its really time
consuming, creating an image for something. I mean, I care about it when I see
something you wanna see pretty pictures. It takes a lot of effort to get to that stage. I
just think were all musicians in this music world where people are used to seeing pop
and rock artists with huge marketing campaigns behind them. I mean, how can we
compete with this? Wheres our audience, you know? I think Piers wouldnt really
have had to think about it that much in his day. I mean he was obviously extremely
good, so those people think less about it, but you know. You get a gig, get a job at
Royal Academy theyre available. Getting one now, jeez.
Yeah, you probably need a PhD or something like that.
Yeah, such a different world, weve got to consider different things. Thats the thing
most teachers cant really go Ive done that (?). Another aspect of perfectionism isnt
it youve got to be academic as well as pianistic, often, if you want a job.
Yeah, you have to be very well-rounded.
Yeah, and I remember when Liam was going for that job at UQ, I think there was
initially a smaller amount of money I think he got that increased a bit, but just what
they asked for, you know, for someone with a PhD, and work in the area, and this
many articles, and can also give a 40-minute recital. Who are these people? And they
say, well give you $70,000 a year.
Its asking a lot.
Yeah. Its a different world.
Just considering all the hours that go into getting to that stage as a musician you
dont just get there.
Its massive. And you need a lot of support. The people who tend to make it, when
you actually scratch below the surface, theres usually a huge support thing happening
there, with money, and parents, and all sorts of things. I mean, you just have to look at
people who go to the expensive schools, and you go, Ah, brain surgeon, excellent!
Good. Congratulations.
Yeah, it separates people a lot. Not having that access.

54

But at the same time, I mean, were viewing it rather negatively right now, itd be
nice to view it positively! On the other hand, I suppose it gives [phone rings]
Oh well, thank you very much for answering my questions.
Yeah, well to leave it on a positive note I suppose [phone rings] I mean, perhaps
because there is an element of academia to it, it means that people I suppose who are
good at both get more opportunities, which is good, because you know, just being
good at performance, you know.
When theres someone who can do both things
Theres more opportunities for them. Yeah, and the fact that people can now have
more control over their marketing and things, we can do it on our own PC, that gives
people a certain sense of freedom they didnt have before.
Yeah, anyone can get a nice website now, without needing to pay someone for it.
Exactly, there are positives. And its a good thing to have perfectionism if you
didnt have it youd be worried; you should give up, because no one wants to hear
you. Theres no point.
Yeah, you need the standards.
You need those standards its just, getting them to work for you. Its not getting rid
of them. Its like performance anxiety, you dont want to get rid of it, its just getting
it to work for you.
Dealing with the negative aspects of it and maintaining the positives.
Yeah, but not even thinking about this as a negative aspect treating it like its your
friend, you know. And just saying, well these are the things I have to do so its happy,
otherwise, you know if you treat anything badly its going to come back at you. Like
a small dog, Keep it well-fed and rested and its gonna be your best friend!
That reminds me, I was watching a TED talk at 1AM it was about stress, and there
was this really interesting research thatd shown that through all these people theyd
sampled who had stress, the people who viewed their stress as a helpful thing that
allowed them to get lots of things done, they were 100% less likely to have heart
conditions. And the people who viewed stress as something to deal with, and not have,
were the people who had all the heart attacks. So maybe thats like what you said,
that its not something you should treat as a negative?
Yeah, its the way you think about it. You treat it in the way that your stress, or your
anxiety needs to be treated, not the way someone else deals with it. Because most
people lie about it they just do. Especially when theyre with colleagues as much
as all colleagues want to support each other, you do, you lie about it. Im fine,
what? Whereas at home youre like, Blerrghh (imitating vomiting). Youre up the
night before, and your mums going, Its gonna be okay, everythings gonna be
okay. And the next morning, Im fine, Im totally fine, I got this. I mean, all these

55

people you see out there who are schmik, ahh, theyve all had breakdowns all of
them!
I like that. Everyone has unseen breakdowns at 1 in the morning!
Yeah, thats right, its just that we got to witness Britney Spears one didnt we,
because she had hers publicized. Everyone has a few of those moments.
Yeah, its just dealing with your own problems your way rather than trying to sort of
fix it.
Yeah, if people dont struggle I think it shows in their music, which is fine for some
audiences, but other audiences, a discerning audience can tell they can enjoy the
music but its not really reaching them.
Yeah, maybe the people with the really high standards you can see that they care
about it a lot, and that probably is a really good thing to see in a performance.
Yeah, I mean Ive got a feeling I mean I dont know him at all Radu Lupu Ive got
a feeling is someone who is potentially struggles with perfectionism, just because he
seems to cancel a lot, and is a bit of a recluse. Hes so appreciated, hes so well
regarded because of his talent.
Yeah, because he takes it so seriously. And Sokolov, he does the same thing hell
only do very few performances and they have to be really good. Thereve been a few
names thatve come up like Michelangeli, he was like that.
I think thats not a bad way to be actually. I dont know, I get bored at concerts that
are ho-hum. I mean, a lot of people enjoy them, but the ones where I dont often go,
but I went to one where I got a free ticket, and you know, youve got the overture
thing, and the concerto thing and the concerto, she was a brilliant violinist, but it
was like, whyyy? She could have played it all night. (imitates repetitive bow strokes).
It was perfect, and gesture and this and that but I was bored. They loved it, most
people loved it, but I was just bored. I want to see some sweat and tears. Which is
why a portfolio career can be a brilliant thing, because you can focus your energy on
that particular performance, and give yourself a rest for the rest of the year, I mean
that would make more human sense if you ask me, than just doing 50 concerts.
Youve got to be built a certain way to do that that you can sleep in hotel rooms.
You forget about that. I mean, if you want to be a concert pianist, youve gotta travel
the world, wake up in hotel rooms and not know where you are, and play strange
pianos and wear strange things, people steal your luggage, youve got to deal with all
those weirdos in other countries who dont speak your language. Its a pretty harsh
way of life.
Well Argerich always says how much she hates it. She probably does really hate it
doesnt have anywhere thats home. Always on the move. Yeah, oh well.
Oh well! Yeah, I think were getting gradually away from that whole, youre a failure
if you dont become a concert pianist.

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And thats really the crux of it I think.

I was cleaning up the showroom the other day, and I saw an article here [goes to open
a Limelight magazine]. Still people propagate this idea that youve failed if you
dont [boss] had it opened at this page so I read it. Theres an article in hear about
Horowitz. Strangely, all the pianists that studied with Horowitz went on to have
troubled careers online footage of Coleman Bloomfield makes it clear why hes not
internationally famous Ivan Davis became professor of piano at the university of
Miami in 1966. Inferring that he failed? That sounds like success to me! Hes got a
proper professor job at a university, he probably performs, and theyre saying he
failed! Or, Ronald Tureny (?) who gave up a promising career to become a
professor emiratus of piano performance. Oh he failed!! Thats not failing! Thats
choosing! Thats a different thing. Articles like that shit me! They dont understand
that these guys probably are amazing pianists who thought, do I want to be like
Horowitz who is a complete fuckup as a person? And has no life? And is gay and he
married a woman whos the daughter of some random conductor he married to get
ahead in life? No I dont want to do that! And you just turn up at lessons and hes
standing there naked randomly? No! Hes a freak.
Obviously whoever wrote that article is a bit of a perfectionist
In a bad way!
In a bad way. Thats probably something that some musicians are fueled by, that idea
that if youre not a concert pianist youre a failure. That kind of dichotomous
thinking.
Thats where relating it to sport fails although on the other hand, perhaps people
like sports coaches should be on a pedestal more, because theyre really important.
Yeah, and people probably see them as...
The failures they didnt get the gold medal, so they went into coaching.
The whole, those who cant do, teach, kind of thing.
Yeah, see even that shits me. What does that mean? Id rather be taught by someone
who could do. Who wants to be taught by someone who cant do? See, weve got to
change the world!
But how?
With your honours thesis!
I dont think my honours thesis is going to change the world. Well, thank you very
much!
No worries!

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APPENDIX G: Participant 3 interview transcript

What do you think perfectionism is?
When I think of perfectionism in piano playing, I think of Plato, and the idea of
absolute forms and the Platonic ideal form of a piece of music, and the idea that every
piece of music exists somewhere out there in its perfect form, and everyone is trying
to recreate that, but inevitably failing, but trying nevertheless. A piece of music
doesnt really exist anywhere a score is not the piece of music, one performance is
not the piece of music. [Coffee interruption]. And so, the only place you can talk
about it is in this kind of Platonic ideal form, that doesnt exist, and so were always
trying to essentially do the impossible, and so thats what I think of when I think of
perfectionism, and how its essentially trying to do the impossible. And thats why
you can spend your whole life never quite being satisfied with even your
interpretation of one single piece. Ive known pianists in their 80s who are still going
deeper into things like late Beethoven and things like that. So thats what I
understand. A kind of perfectionism that goes beyond technical perfectionism, and
tries to arrive at some interpretation that is almost by definition not achievable.
So its sort of about the ideal that youre pursuing, and whether thats something that
can never be actually realized
Yeah you know no single horse looks like any other horse, and yet we know what a
horse is. And I think Platos idea was that theres this kind of transcendent realm
where the perfect horse exists, and thats the horse that all other horses are versions
of. For me with a piece of music, theres an idea of this perfect performance of
Beethoven op. 110, but no single pianists version looks the same as the perfect one.
I like that idea.
Look up Plato and forms!
Do you think it can be problematic for pianists if they think that its something they
can actually get to? Like it can be a bit tormenting?
Yes, I think so. I think so because you are probably setting yourself up for a
sense of failure if you think that your job will ever be finished, I think. And generally
with the kinds of music that most pianists are interested in, they probably get kind of
bored with a piece of music that you could eventually say Yes, I said exactly what I
want to say about that piece for now and forever more. So even a kind of
perfectionist such as Glenn Gould, came back to the piece that, you know, you cant
imagine a better version of the Goldberg Variations from 1955, and yet in 1980 he
came back and did it again, and very differently. So, your question though was about
pianists who torment themselves if they dont because of perfectionism. yeah I
see what youre saying. I think that um theres probably a difference between
healthy obsessive practice, and unhealthy obsessive practice, and its a very fine line,
and its hard to say which is which. I think that healthy obsessive practice is
essentially a kind of joyous thing, its like kind of hard work where you get so
involved with the hard work that it becomes a kind of deep fun. And youre actually
improving things through the process. And unhealthy obsessive practice I think is one

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where youre not sure actually where youre going, and you might get drawn into
repeating things for the sake of repeating them, without actually necessarily
improving them. You know, the definition of madness is repeatedly doing an action
the same action, over and over again, hoping to get a different result. Something like
that, they say. Yeah, so if you have that sense of at least knowing where the peak is,
or what it is at least that youre working towards, I think that obsessive practice can
be a good thing.
Yeah, its almost a necessary thing for musicians to be able to do to get to such a high
standard.
It is, it is.
But then the negative side can come into it, where you get a little too obsessed with
whats not working?
Well are you interested in when pianists get frustrated?
A little of both Im interested to see what the positive sides are and what the
negative sides are of perfectionism.
It probably comes down to the two basic types of learners that some recent research
has identified and it sounds very simplistic and clich but I think the two types that
this particular research Im thinking of talks about are growers and fixed
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
Yeah, and I think that because all musicians are human beings or at least were
talking about human musicians, Messiaen would have said that birds are musicians
too - but um, because were human, we have limitations, and musicians inevitably
(pianists especially) find themselves butting up against their limitations, and its the
way you react to that wall thatll lead to either you know continuing torment, or
torment with the possibility of growing through or around that wall, and Im gonna
say there have been points in my life where I have been extremely frustrated and felt
like I hit a wall, and just could not understand what I was supposed to do next,
because I thought I was hearing similar things of feedback from teachers and
colleagues, and I could not understand what theyre talking about what is it theyre
talking about? You know, specific things that I could not yet hear in my own playing.
And I got very frustrated luckily though I was able to kind of keep butting my head
up against that wall and actually those times of ultimate frustration led to the biggest
growth times after that and because of that, and some of those issues became and
because I had to work on them so hard and they actually became very close to my
heart as things, do you know what Im saying?
Yeah. Its your personal path
Yes, and the idea that if you focus on your weakest link really hard, sometimes it can
become one of your stronger things
Thats really interesting. On that subject, Ive heard different opinions some
musicians say that you should find what your musical strengths are and just really

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pursue them and make that who you are as a musical personality, and then theres the
other side where you always look for what could be better
I think you have to do both. I think that pursuing both things serves different
functions. And you need to know when to do one and when to do the other. So
obviously with competitions you need to focus on your strengths because theres this
specific goal of winning a competition. So youve got more time to prepare for
competitions or the higher you go up in competitions its good to work on your
weaker areas. I think that ultimately though theres so many examples of
specialization where the thing that seemed to be less part of that specialization
actually is quite important to that specialization. Okay so thats a very convoluted
way of saying that, for instance to be a good accompanist you have to be a good
pianist. You cant be a good accompanist without being a good pianist. So, the idea
that accompaniment is a specialization that you go into and a strength as opposed to
solo playing, doesnt actually equate. And youll find that the worlds best
accompanists are good pianists. They can play their instrument. Or take somebody
who plays new music only. Youll always hear, over time anyway perhaps, youll
always hear a new music specialist who also knows old music, because the best new
music is informed by old music, its part of the continuum. Theres phrasing, and
theres harmony, and depending on the style, but similarly, an early music
specialist who cant sense the radical elements of the music theyre playing, the sense
that their music was once new as well, is always going to be a bit stifled. So I think
that pursuing weaknesses and strengths is a fairly but important thing to keep in mind.
And sometimes people find out that what they thought were there strengths arent
necessarily that strong. Especially when people are young too. I thought, for instance,
when I was a teenager I thought that my best strength was Australian music and new
music, but I realized that I just wasnt playing old music well enough yet.
So its all interconnected really?
Yeah, absolutely. Ian Forster (?) was right.
Just coming back to competitions you mentioned them briefly I was just
wondering whether you thought that there might be a different kind of perfectionism
that comes through in competitions, just because of the need to execute so well?
Yeah. As with anything, theres good and bad here. There are these
competition/career pianists who literally not figuratively, literally spend a year
going from one competition to the next, pretty much playing the same repertoire,
seeing the same judges, trying to find some way to get noticed, but essentially kind
of aiming for a certain kind of perfectionism that doesnt really have a lot to do
with lets just say it doesnt place the music first and foremost. And so I think that,
you know obviously competitions can lead to an inordinate fear of wrong notes, and it
can lead to inoffensive interpretive choices very often, and it can lead to questionable
musical values, with emphasis on show-pony type repertoire, a devaluation of
intellectually sophisticated repertoire, and a devaluation of new music, you know
where Bartok and Prokofiev are as far as they go in terms of new music the
occasional kind of soft Messiaen maybe. On the other hand, in terms of personal
development, competitions can be incredibly powerful tools for pushing a young
pianist to a new level of technical or musical perfection, because there is this sense of,

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theres a panel of six or seven really amazing musicians that are going to be listening
to every note, and they know every note that Im gonna play, and therefore I need to
know every note Im going to play.
So it can be a really helpful motivating force?
Yes, and it can help you raise your own standards basically. Its a motivating force,
you want to do well in the competition, you know about all these other good pianists
that are going in, you know how good the jury is, so theres that intense high pressure,
you know its different to going and playing a concert in a community where high
standard piano playing isnt kind of heard very often, theres less pressure than a
room full of pianists and piano judges. So it can force you to raise your standard a bit.
Its interesting, because maybe in the situation where youre playing for a less
knowledgeable audience, you really need to have that intrinsic motivation to make art
rather than have the need for extrinsic motivation
Yeah, and thats where pianists who are only motivated by extrinsic motivation might
struggle in that situation. So yeah, competitions.
Competitions I was also wondering what you thought about the recording industry,
because theres this ability to create note-perfect recordings even if thats not how it
was played once-through in the studio. Do you think that might have an effect on
musicians?
Absolutely. Its actually really depressing. When you think about the recordings, first
of all the classical recording industry is pretty much dead, and over-saturated, and its
really interesting to thing about the fact that people arent really interested in
buying recordings of a lot of pianists who have done really well in the last 20 year for
instance. Theyre more interested in buying recordings of pianists who are not part of
the competition circuit for instance, so pianists who grew up more as individuals. You
know, you could talk about the difference between Gieseking and Michelangelis
Debussy, you know, these are pianists who grew up or the difference between
Horowitz playing Chopin and Rubinstein playing Chopin. These are pianists who
grew up before competitions, pretty much before recordings necessarily were it
wasnt necessarily on their horizon as they were students and young pianists. And
they were more interested in communicating, actually, and so communication with an
audience came first, rather than being trained for competitions and recordings,
whereas a lot of our training has been about goals that were competitions and
recordings, and thats just not part of the background of a lot of the most interesting
pianists who have lived. And also, the ones that are successful today, sure, they might
have won or got a prize in a competition, but thats not really what theyre known for.
Theyre known for other things. Like Pierre Laurent-Aimard is known for his
collaborations with Messiaen and Ligeti, and Piers Lane is known for his chamber
music and his interesting programming, and his finding of little hidden gems.
Its not about what got them started
Yeah, its not what they do and how they communicate with an audience, and you
know, theres no competition which I mean Piers Lane plays incredibly well, but

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theres also this extra thing about the way he communicates with an audience that no
competition will judge, its not part of the competition, right? Hell get up and hell
talk hes got a personality. Theres no room for that in a competition.
Its kind of like theres kind of a narrow template for what you have to be in
competitions?
Yeah, and look at Michael Keiran-Harvey, I mean, hes an interesting case actually,
because he did win a couple of competition. He won I think a competition in Hungary
when he was young, but then the big competition he won was the Ivo Pogorelich
competition in Pasadena, which is an interesting competition because there was kind
of two juries there was one who was a traditional jury of famous pedagogues and
pianists, and then there was another group of the jury that were concert presenters,
and recording label executives, and critics. In that competition, Michael, not only did
he play new music, he did interesting creative things, like I think he might have done
things like spread Messiaen preludes throughout the program you know, so like a
concert, a creative concert program, which you just dont do in competitions. So
anyway, he shared first prize, and guess what? The non-traditional jury members were
in love with him, but the traditional jury members wanted a more traditional pianist.
So thats why they shared the first prize because the jury was split. And of course
Michael is one of our most important musicians not just pianists and because of
the way he thinks about music, the way he presents music, the commissions, and just
the commitment to ideals and values that have nothing to do with perfectionism,
really. Much more interesting things. So yeah, it can be a real noose around our necks
if we only think about this perfectionism. And it just depends on the activity that
youre interested in, like if youre interested in spending your life almost for yourself,
delving further into music that kind of perfectionism I might consider a good thing.
If youre talking about perfectionism where youre afraid of external judgments from
a recording or a competition, and that being the thing that predominates in your mind,
then I think that can be useful up until a very minor point of high standards, but it can
be destructive after that.
Yeah, thats a recurring theme thats been coming up theres the positive sides of it,
and you need to have these high standards
But you have to have other stuff. And you have to be able to let go of that
perfectionism. You know, Claude Frank great pianist he was German born, but
moved to America to study with Schnabel, and taught at Yale, he said you have to be
extremely self critical when you practice, but completely the opposite, completely
uncritical when you perform. Thats useful.
Yeah, I guess no one wants to see you on stage just being self-critical, thats not what
youre there for.
Yes. And I dont think he meant too literally, he just meant to be aware of what you
want to improve while youre practicing, but then to think with the other side of your
brain when youre performing. Its just begging the question though, how are you
supposed to suddenly use a different part of the brain from when you practice, and
thats why I dont think he meant it as a black and white thing I guess he was just

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talking about an internal voice you cant really have an internal dialogue when
youre performing.
Yeah, you cant think in the same way that you do when you practice.
No I dont think you can really think at all, ideally. If youre thinking its going to be
one of two things its going to be positive or negative. Its judgement of how its
going. A negative judgement is bad for obvious reasons. But actually a positive
judgement of how youre going is bad too because a positive judgement carries the
seed of its own opposite. I mean every pianist has had this experience where you
think its going well, I havent made a mistake so far!, and then BAM.
Yeah, its almost like, whether its positive or negative, its still not what youre
doing.
Yes! Youre still not listening. Absolutely. The other thing about perfectionism is
that, I think that there are ideals to always aim for, no matter what the situation, that
involve perfectionism, and for me, that is the ability to listen to every note, or every
sound that I make in a performance, and not to lose concentration for a single second.
So its a form of concentration where the object of concentration is listening to the
sound that youre making. And you dont miss anything, like you dont think about
something else, or a dialogue doesnt enter your mind, and youre able to hear
everything that you do. And so that sense of perfectionism I think is a different kind
of perfectionism to what youve been talking about. Its not saying that youre going
to deliver the perfect version of that piece, its saying that basically, your awareness
and your concentration will be focused on listening for the whole performance.
Perfectly focused?
Yeah, perfectly focused. And listening to how its going. And that I think is a good
thing to aim for in terms of perfectionism.
Do you ever find that you can get distracted by your thoughts because youre thinking
that youre not perfectly focused?
That is a form of being distracted, yes. And ideally, you practice its very much
like meditation, where you acknowledge when a thought comes into your mind, but
you bring your focus back to your breathing. And gradually youre able to do that for
longer and longer periods of time. And I find that directly analogies to a movement,
say. Like, I want to be able to concentration, without distraction, on a whole
movement, listening to every sound I make. And then I deliberately break the
concentration between movements, take a break and start it up again. And thats
something that has to be part of the practice I think. Youre really ultimately not
going to do anything differently on stage than what youve in practice. So if youve
not practiced listening to a whole span of time, a whole span of sound of time, then
youre not going to suddenly magically be able to do it. So thats why practicing is a
kind of meditation in that sense, in that youre practicing focusing your listening on
every sound you make for a span of time, and gradually being able to increase it, so
you dont get distracted.

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Yeah, so stretching yourself. Do you think meditation can be a supplementary

practice?
A lot of people do do it. I havent done it much. I mean, a little bit of yoga when I was
in my early twenties was useful enough to understand this connection, because at the
end of the yoga session there was a bit of focused breathing, and then a bit of reading
about what meditation is, without having to do it. I wish I did do it. I think itd be a
good idea, and I think a lot of musicians do use meditation as a form of concentration
practice, which then can be used in listening. So when meditation is concerned with
focusing on breathing, performing is focused on listening.
Yeah, focusing on sound.
Yeah, sound, exactly.
So its kind of like a non-judgemental focus in a way?
Yes. You notice things you have to notice things, and thats actually part of the
main point you notice things, so that you can make the appropriate reaction. So if
youre playing on a piano which has a really loud C# compared to the other notes, and
youve got a passage where you know a C# is coming up, you notice it, and so youll
allow yourself to adjust, youll play it a bit softer.
Yeah, so you need that kind of feedback.
Yeah. Its definitely aware, but its not judgemental.
And then perhaps in the practice room theres a time for judgemental kind of practice
where you nit-pick?
Yeah, I think that the kind of practice Im talking about where you kind of practice
listening youre always listening, but in terms of specifically expanding your ability
to listen across a whole span of time, like a movement, thats a later stage of practice.
You can focus on all sorts of different things when youre practicing, but it doesnt
even always have to be musical, you can just sit down and say Im gonna figure out
my fingering in these hard bits where Ive never really worked out my fingering, or
Im gonna work on memorization, or something specific.
Individual skills?
Yeah, specific things. So it doesnt have to be part of every practice session
You put all those things back together?
Yeah. You do always have to be listening, because its obviously informed by how it
sounds.
Otherwise you dont what youre doing?
Yes, you dont know what to do next basically.

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Its like that playing over and over kind of practice.

Yes, exactly. Its kind of, mindlessly thrashing about.
Another question of mine is, what role do you think parents and teachers have in
fostering a healthy kind of perfectionism in students?
Ah, I think well I think parents parents probably need to teach resilience. I think
its good if they dont praise you for your successes too much, but instead praise you
for your hard work. I think that teachers have a number of roles, depending on the
age. Ultimately, the job of teaching is to make oneself redundant for the student, so
that the student can become their own teacher. They do a number of different things
if the student is advanced they might function as a kind of mirror, to kind of hold up
to the student elements of how thy sound that need work.
Or just things they werent aware of?
Yeah. But teachers can act as mentors, teachers can help articulate standards and hold
the student to high standards. And teachers can find... depending on the student,
whether the student needs a cheerleader, they might need a task-master, depending on
what the students personality is like. And they essentially need a teacher who will
bring out the best in them, help identify weaknesses all sorts of different things.
There are a lot of similarities probably with parenting, and there is Ive noticed a lot
of it in even the most successful teaching often a period of frustration between the
teacher and the student. And both the teacher and the student has kinda responsibility
in this. It can be when, for instance, a teacher, for instance a student Im not going
to name names here but theres a student I know who when this person was a
student, he had a lot of physical tension. And this great teacher would basically say
the same thing every week, for almost two years the student finished studying with
this teacher, and he used to complain all the time about how the teacher just said the
same things again. But the teacher had been doing more than that, and then over the
next couple of years, the student was able to remember things that the teacher had
said, and actually that teacher helped that student more than any other teacher,
because of that insistence on this one issue. Ive seen teachers get frustrated when,
sometimes they realize that the student is playing like them, but in a way that reflects
the things that they dont like about their own playing. So this is a real interesting
thing you should read Jeremy Denks article. Hes an amazing writer about music.
Hes got an article in The New Yorker, I think its out at the moment, and its about
his teacher in Indiana Gyorgy Sebok, a great Hungarian teacher, and you should
read it. Im not gonna spoil it for you because its actually quite a profound thing
theres this one bit though, where hes reflecting on something his teacher has said, so
basically he was trying to imitate his teacher, he was trying to do what his teacher
said, and he was trying to play one lesson with a kind of stately reserve. And Sebok
said youre playing like an old man, when all he was trying to do was playing like
he said. And he was frustrated, right? And Sebok was frustrated, and they both sensed
this, and then they both went their different ways. And then years later, Denk was
teaching, and he realized that the student was imitating him in a way that he didnt
like, and suddenly he remembered Sebok, probably seeing himself in his own
students playing, right? So, because he was an old man at that point, you see what

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Im saying? So, its kind of a crazy situation, but its the same though with
parenting. Theres this age that most kids go through, I dont know if you did or not,
but I definitely was about 15 I know other people whose kids are around 15, and
they just decide that they hate their parents for a year! Like Mark Twain said,
couldnt believe how much of an idiot my dad was when I was 15. By the time I was
21 I couldnt believe how much hed learnt in 6 years. In other words, his dad didnt
change, he just didnt realize what his dad was until he was a little bit older. You
understand the idea behind it?
Yeah. And you get to an age to where you start to see your parents in yourself!
Yes, yeah. Oh well maybe you didnt have that rebellious phase when you were 15.
I didnt really have that. I was probably the good one trying to keep everyone happy!
You were a middle child?
Yeah.
Yeah, I dont know about middle children. Thats probably right, you were probably
the mediator or something.
Yeah. Well, thats a lot of my questions really!
So, whats your research question?
Its changed so many times basically, its how do pianists perceive perfectionism
in their own playing. Thats a simple one and then theres lots of little ones
So you kind of start by defining what perfectionism means to each pianist and then
Yeah. Like, before this process I did a lot of reading of the literature, as theres a lot
of psychology literature about perfectionism.
Oh really?
Yeah, its quite a large subject. Theres some about perfectionism in musicians, but a
lot of it is quantitative studies, and Im sort of interested to actually talk to musicians
and see what they think about perfectionism, and whether they think its a good thing
or a bad thing, or something that enables them or something they have to cope with.
One final thing that I want to say about it actually is that I think another kind of
dual perspective on it is that I think its fair to say that its a bad thing if its a
perfectionism that is perceived by the pianist as reflecting on them. Its a good kind of
perfectionism if its perceived by the pianist as being concerned with the music. And I
think thats kind of what weve been talking about, the perfectionism of recordings
and the competitions is about the pianist saying I was perfect when I played that,
instead of saying I want to achieve perfection in the playing for the sake of the
music. So its about where your priority is, and if you feel bad after a performance
because it didnt go well, obviously no one removes their ego completely and you

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kind of feel a bit embarrassed, but its more about whether youre doing justice to the
music that should be the primary concern.
Yeah, so thats where you should keep coming back to.
Yeah. And you can kinda tell somebody who is playing a piece for the 17-billionth
time, and theyve kind of honed it to this kind of ultra-manicured, ultra-sterilized,
lifeless perfection, and theyre kind of constantly massaging it; it definitely seems to
be more about them, I would say, than any quest to uncover the truths of the music,
so anyway.
Yeah. Thats very interesting.
Yeah, so perfectionism in music can lead to good things, perfectionism thats only
about yourself, I dunno any other questions? I just realized Im meeting somebody
else in 7 minutes.
I think that was everything I was going to ask. Thanks for your insightful answers!

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APPENDIX H: Participant 4 interview transcript

How would you define perfectionism?
Its a persons desire to play as close to what they consider to be perfect, in terms I
suppose of both notation and interpretation.
So its a mix of different elements, interpretative and technical?
Yes, I think the two cannot be separated.
Are there potentially healthy aspects of perfectionism and unhealthy aspects?
Definitely. In fact Id even go so far as to say that Im not sure I believe that anything
can be perfect because its the same as beauty, and its the same as perfect pitch its
all relative to your perception of what that is. So, there is no such thing as perfect
pitch, because pitch is a movable thing, from one style of music or period to another.
And the same as interpretation, what we consider to be perfect, or what we consider to
be the norm or the correct way of playing Mozart a hundred years ago is not how we
view it now, so thats a shifting thing. The notes are not such a shifting thing except
maybe from edition to edition, or transcription or something, then you might have
differing notes in different scores. So I suppose in terms of notation we always want
to be as accurate to the score as possible, and in terms of interpretation I dont think
thats a defined thing its a very flexible thing, its an individual thing. Now, getting
back to the question you said yes I think if youre not striving for perfection or a
perfect performance then youre probably not going to be as fastidious for accuracy,
and youll be quite happy with just a 90% performance. So, I do think its a healthy
thing to try and play perfectly, but it also can be unhealthy as well.
So maybe where it gets unhealthy is where you think there is a fixed, achievable thing,
a fixed perfection you can achieve, rather than realizing its not as solid as that?
Yeah, and I think were very hard on ourselves, people who consider themselves to be
perfectionists which I do. We can be too hard on ourselves, and that can interrupt
spontaneity, it can interrupt the sense of freedom in a performance, and so that you
dont actually play your best, because youre nervous about not playing perfect. So,
theres that psychological battle and that psychological balancing act, between being
happy with something thats not perfect, in order to have a bit of spontaneity, and in
order to be, you know, not be suicidal at the end of something, and that hard and
critical on yourself. Because nobody is perfect and nothing is perfect in the end.
So are there particular kinds of strategies that you use for performing that help with
that?
I think in my practice I try and practice so that its always going to be close to perfect,
but I also try to tell myself before a performance whats the worst that can happen?
Its not a life-threatening illness that Im going through here, its just, Im playing a
concert and Im not perfect. So once you decide that youre not perfect and you
decide to stop trying to be perfect in performance, I think that you can enjoy life

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better as a musician, rather than beating yourself over the head every time something
goes wrong.
Rather than blowing it out of proportion too much.
Yeah, and I think maybe the older the get the more you think well, cest la vie, you
know. I always say to myself its not Carnegie Hall.
I used that one the other day!
Yeah, well then again, does everyone who plays in Carnegie Hall play perfectly? I
doubt it. But you know, yes, there are levels of achievement and levels of pianism,
and we all know, you know, somebody like Evgeny Kissin, you might think, well
thats perfect, and the only way it wouldnt be perfect I suppose would be if you
dont enjoy his interpretation or I dont know if he ever plays a wrong note
probably not.
Theres some research that shows that musicians tend to derive their self-esteem
solely from the quality of their playing, and that can be problematic. So do you think
its important for musicians to have a balanced range of outlets, rather than just their
playing, in their life?
Oh absolutely, and I think most people do. Certainly most people I know like to do
other things, and I think its really healthy not to put all your eggs in one basket
professionally as well because theres so few people who are actually going to make
it to the stage as international soloists, so but thats talking more about a balance of
activities in a career. Your question, was it about also being happy with other things
in your life, other aspects of your life?
Yeah, so I guess realizing that youre more than just your playing, and not getting too
caught up in it.
Yeah, exactly. You are more than just your playing, thats for sure.
Are there particular ways that you think perfectionism could affect work in the
practice room? As opposed to on-stage. Like, in the way that you work through pieces
and learn repertoire?
Yeah, well I feel that you need to know the piece intimately with regard to harmony
and structure, so to have a completely solid overview of the piece is very important,
and just the age-old habits of practicing slowly can really be beneficial. Even right up
to performance I think, sometimes if you just play slowly on the day of the concert, it
cements things, rather than, you know, running through your paces at the top speed,
and then perhaps missing something and then starting to second-guess yourself. So,
slow motion, practicing with your eyes closed, visualizing yourself play, imagine
yourself playing really well before a concert, rather than focusing on the negative
things of whats hard about this piece, and where I might go wrong. Youve got to
psych yourself up, saying, well, Ive done the work in the best way I possibly can,
and so from not on I just have to let what happens happen. I have to let go a little bit

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and be spontaneous, and not try and make things the same every time. So to practice
in different ways is very important.
And theres definitely a divide in how you think in the practice room and how you
approach performing?
Absolutely, yes. Nobody wants to get that mixed up, because if you continually just
practice in the repetitive way, and not practice with the overview of the performance
as a whole, then what youre doing is practicing stopping too many times. So you do
have to practice performing as well. But then, allow some spontaneity and flexibility
in any performance. Allow yourself to think I might be doing this differently tonight,
I might just see where it takes me. Because you never feel the same way twice
anyway, in any performance. You could play in the same half, with the same
orchestra, two or three nights in a row, and it wouldnt be the same. Theres always
going to be something different. So, its good to be prepared for that.
So in practice youre just opening up all your options so that when you come to the
stage you can be spontaneous. Just on another subject, in terms of piano competitions
or international competitions in general, do you think that they might encourage a
kind of perfectionism in pianists?
Yeah, I definitely do think so, and I think people limit themselves by going into too
many competitions, because you are expected to play perfectly, and therefore you
have to go over and rehash and rehash and rehash all the old repertoire that youve
done for so many years. Even in terms of memorizing, I remember a colleague of
mine who played in the festival, he said he never plays from memory, because theres
just too much wonderful music to perform, and if restrict yourself and say Im
always going to play from memory, then you spend hours and hours memorizing.
And you might be more free but this is not the way I feel about it, I like playing
from memory, I prefer to play from memory that was his philosophy, if you put that
pressure on yourself then youre going to get through less repertoire in your life. But
in terms of competitions, I think that does tend to perhaps make people become a bit
stale and a bit narrow in their repertoire, because there is so much wonderful music
that one should and would love to play, but its not really made for competition
repertoire.
Yeah, theres almost kind of a narrower template for competition pianists, perhaps.
Yes Im sure about that. I mean I like it when competitions include new music, you
know, a specially commissioned work, because that does develop the repertoire as
well. But lets face it, in most competitions they want to hear the same old things
played the same old way, in a sense, with very little divergence, creativity,
individualism. People are almost criticized for being individual these days, and thats
a bit of a shame.
I often notice that theres someone who comes third or fourth, who to me seems to be
the most individual or interesting one, but they dont always win.
Yeah, Im sure thats happened a lot of times, I could think of examples. And I just
also feel this may not have anything to do with your research but I feel theres a

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real difference in attitude between improvising musicians and those who are playing
classical music thats written down. And I feel that jazz pianists, its not as though
theyre slap-dash about their work, its just that because the notes are not written
down, and theyve got to find the notes in an improvisatory way, they also Im sure
have high expectations of what is a good performance, or what is a good
improvisation, but because theyre not so stuck, locked into a score that someone else
has created, I think that they probably have a more fun time making their music.
Yeah, less perfectionistic maybe.
Well, less restricted in a different way. Because nothing is really wrong in
improvisation. It might not be great improvisation, and they might notice that
themselves Im sure they do. They might listen back to an improvisation and think,
well that didnt really do for me what I wanted it to do, I wasnt satisfied with that,
but theyre not as locked in to playing exactly what is on the score, as classical
musicians are. So, you know, its a good reason to be able to improvise.
Do you think that maybe spending some time improvising could help classical pianists
be a little more flexible, in terms of that idea that theres no right or wrong way to do
things?
Well, I dont think you can just ask classical pianists to improvise.
Not for people, but maybe for themselves.
Yeah, I do think that a good sense of keyboard harmony is really essential in
musicians, and a lot of people if you asked them to play happy birthday in any key on
the piano, they wouldnt be able to do it. But we used to do that in Keyboard
Harmony when I was at the Con, and we used to have to play those types of pieces in
any different key, or four or five different keys.
Thats good training!
It is good training, because, you know, simple things that might be useful at a party
for example, I think everyone should be able to improvise. But thats easy for me to
say because I can already, I was born with that ability, so its easy for me to say. Not
that I couldnt become a lot better if I practiced improvisation I certainly would. But
just asking a student to improvise more it certainly would open up their options I
think as musicians, because they could accompany without any music a lot of the
time, you know. I just can think of lots of different scenarios but yeah, Im not sure
that just being able to improvise would give them freedom when theyre playing
classical music, I cant really see the way that lines up Im not sure.
Another question I was going to ask do you think parents and teachers of students
might play a role in fostering a healthy kind of perfectionism in students?
What do you mean by healthy kind of perfectionism?
As opposed to a kind of obsessive perfectionism, that is mostly self-punishing when
things arent working.

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Yeah, of course we are always influenced by what other people think, and if other
people have a big influence on our lives, like our teachers and our parents, especially
when were young, we definitely could suffer detrimentally if were told off because
we got a note wrong, or something wrong, or we didnt play it as well as we
shouldve. And sure, I think its detrimental to young people to be criticized for
making a mistake, or to have to always be the winner. Its unreasonable as an
expectation. I remember being in the Sydney International Piano Competition once
where a young pianist threw herself out the window. She committed suicide, in
Sydney, because she didnt get into the next round. Im sure she must have had
psychological problems, but obviously she couldnt cope with the competition and the
strain. You know, and you do see at eisteddfods, parents kind of over-pushing their
kids, giving their kids a false sense of reality as well, you know, theyve gotta be the
best and theyve gotta win. Its pretty sad.
And perhaps it also tends to ignore the positive things in what theyre doing.
Yeah, in anything in life youve got to focus on the positive and theres always
positives. And people whove been brought up to have a good self-esteem about
themselves; I think theyre more resilient when they have knocks in life. My
philosophy has always been, theres always going to be someone better than me, and
theres always going to be people less good than I, so Im just in the middle
somewhere, and thats fine with me.
Yeah. The world is a big place.
The world is a big place.
Another question do you think with the advent of the modern recording studio where
recordings can be edited to note-perfection, that that might have some influence on
the way pianists play today? Or the way they approach performances?
I certainly think its giving the audience a false sense of reality, because its a little bit
like cheating, isnt it? I mean, thats why if you do play a concert and you play an odd
slip here or there, if you know its going to be presented as a broadcast, in some way
you really want them to say well this is a live recording and its not been edited, and
it wont be perfect. Thats fine, but you wouldnt want that performance to be played
over and over again. So with a disk, I suppose if youre making a disk, you know that
someones going to play it over and over again, so you want it to be in a sense perfect,
in the way that you conceive it should be.
Yeah. Interpretively and technically.
Yeah. And you can go back months later and listen to a recording and think, well that
wasnt too bad, or thats not the way I would play it now because Ive developed and
grown things are movable, your idea of perfect is movable.
Yeah, its not a really solid thing.
Which is why I suppose really good pianists often re-record whole cycles of things,
10 or 20 years later, because they now have grown and changed.

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Like Gould.
Yeah, exactly. And Im sure Barenboims done the Beethoven Sonatas over a couple
of times, you know, has changed his view on how he would play them as hes gotten
older.
Yeah, always looking for what can be improved its sort of an endless thing.
And in some ways Id rather have a live recording that has spontaneity and spirit and
warmth, rather than a clinically perfect studio recording that you know has been cut
and pasted many times. But its complex.
Theres almost this expectation for listeners these days, that theyll put a recording on
and itll be note perfect. Its kind of a different listening mode to when you go to a
concert.
Absolutely, definitely. And it is a different playing mode too, because when you are
in a concert and you play a wrong note and you think well, theres no point now in
criticizing myself, and telling myself how stupid I am, because Ive got to move on,
its gone, its in the past, its not going to be played again. But if you do a recording
and you make a mistake you stop.
Yeah, youve got the opportunity to actually change it. Its a different scenario I
guess.
Different headspace, different approach, I guess.
I think thats a lot of the questions I was going to ask, unless you had any extra
thoughts or personal experiences.
I think Ive probably covered all my thoughts about it as I am now. I can remember
certainly when I was younger, my approach to practicing hasnt changed, I still want
to be perfect when I play, but Im not as hard on myself maybe now. If you make a
mistake its gone, and thats life.
Perhaps over the years you learn to care less what people think?
What people think, yeah. Thats probably the one other thing Id like to say is that
even if I play note perfectly, or if I play very well, and someone comes up to me and
says that was absolutely fantastic, you know, if I know I havent played perfectly
then Im not happy, or Im not 100% satisfied but what is 100% satisfied really?
What Im trying to say is that just because someone else thinks it was marvelous,
doesnt make me feel it was marvelous, because you do have to please yourself in the
end. Youre the one who has to be happy with it, and pleased with it. But on the other
hand, youre still happy that youve given happiness to somebody, that theyve
enjoyed your playing, thats important. But what is perfect for one, thats the
question. Is there such a thing as perfect?
Thats a good question; its hard to know. Thank you very much.

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