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12 HIGH TIMES November 1991

Robert Anton Wilson


Based on Robert Anton Wilson's incredible and varied
career, it's hard to know what to expect when you meet him.
This is a guy who spent five years in the '60s as an editor of
Playboy, then went on to coauthor (with Robert Shea) the
mind-boggling Illuminalusl (cut into a trilogy by its
publisher), got his PhD in psychology, wrote the 66new-age"
classic Cosmic Trigger,, collaborated on two books with
Timothy Leary, wrote a whole bunch more on his own,
released a punk-rock album, and toured as a stand-up
comedian. Robert Anton Wilson has expanded as many
minds with his books as all the Sandoz acid
ever manufactured.
A small surprise, then, to finally see this white-bearded,
Buddha-like man dressed in the same casual suit that your
college physics professor wore-a slightly wacky Buddha, to
be sure, cracking jokes and reciting Monty Python routines
in a pleasantly gruff Brooklyn accent. Wilson's conversation
is startlingly like his books, his words tying together an
amazing diversity of facts, theories and punchlines in a way
that gently prods at your sense of reality.
Oh well, as Wilson's readers know well enough, it's always
fun to watch as your preconceptions are blown
to little, tiny bits.

by Philip H. Farber

HIGH TIMES: Who do you think is big profit out of the cocaine business, government is involved in maintain-
responsible for the "War on and Eli Lilly provides the materials ing that supply of materials from
Drugs?" that the Colombians need to make Eli Lilly to Colombia?
Robert Anton Wilson: I suppose the cocaine out ofthe coca. So they want RAW: Well, the govemment isn't
Eli Lilly Cornpany. to keep the cocaine business going. By doing anything to stop Eli Lilly tiom
HT: How do you figure that? the way, do you know who owns Eli sending those materials down to
RAW: The War on Drugs is chiefly a Lilly? Colombia and there's lots of cases
war on pot, according to Judge Sweet. HT: No, I don't. where the CIA has been caught red-
Eighty-five percent of the drug budget RAW: The Quayle family owns a handed laundering drug rnoney. They
is going into pursuing pot-smokers. large part and George Bush owns a were running a bank in Florida a few
They're trying to drive pot off the large part. years ago-the World Finance
market because the CIA is a makins a HT: How much do vou think the US Corporation-which was mainly a

HIGH TIMES November 1991 13


cocainc-money laundronrat. And lhcn called antidrug propaganda is approaches to rnl llilty.
thcrc was a bank irr Australia which phrased in a strange, negative fash- HT: The executive branch of the
thc CIA was runrliltg. which was laurt- ion-sort of reverse suggestion. For government, the CIA and the
clcring hcroin nloncv IThe Nugan instance, "Keep on smoking crack Vatican Bank are pretty monolithic
Hantl Bank: sec Jan. '91 HTl. Most ol' and you'll end up with nothing," institutions to be working against.
the ir banks wcrc tic(l in with the Swiss could tre taken as a suggestion to Do you think there is much chance
Alpinc Bank in thc Bahanras. which keep smoking crack. Do you think of cannabis being legalized in
wts run by Robcrto Calvi. ancl this is deliberate, or are the.v.iust America?
Archbishop l\'lalcinkus. so thcy coukl stupid? RAW: Ycs. bc'causc lhere arc nrorc
run the money through thc Vatican RAW: Nevcr unclcreslimale' thc stupid- and morc pcoplc bc'conting uu'arc ol'
Bartk. rvhere it lcaves no record. ity ol'thc e-slablishrncnt in this counlry. the valuablc propcrlics ol'henrp. thanks
HT: I'r'e noticed that a lot of the so- Thc stupidity ol' thc cstablishnrcnt to Jack Hercr and a lot ol'othcrs-but
cspecially Jack Hcrcr. The're arc rnorc
and more pcoplc who know that wc
Return of the Cosmic Triggerman coulcl be running our cars on hcnrp oil
ancl not polluting thc air the way that
lflosmic Trigger,Volume I1(New Falcon Publications) is a largely- pctrolcunr pollutcs the air. A lot ol'
f autobiographicalcompound ofanecdotalinsights, brilliantly-odd- pcoplc know that wc can print books
\./ ball observations and stunningly-right-on accusations, eccentrically on hemp papcr. ancl that u'ill slow
fused into a book that summarizes Robert Anton Wilson's view of the rlown thc tlcstruction ol'the lirrcsts. A
world and the Cosmos. A great many readers know Wilson only for his lot of lircts like that arc beconring nrore
Illuminatus! books and other works of fiction; some few others may also wiclely known. lt's an uphill btttlc
know him for his nonfiction works. which range with a Renaissance man's against clcception. grcecl and igno-
ease through philosophy, physics, occultism, cosmology and histor.v. The
rancc-but il's not hope less.
Cosmic Trigger books might be considered the key to all his works. HT: Are there some n'a1s to do this
You can yes, most definitely, appreciate this book without having read that .vou think haven't been t'ull.v
Vofume I, which was first published back in '77 (and after being out of explored, but can be?
print for awhile, is now available again in a New Falcon edition). There are RAW: I think we shoulcl stucly tltc
revelations here that made me sit up straight and blurt. "Holy shit! Those sarnizclat mctho(ls that were usccl in the
sons of bitchesl" Revelations about the Vatican's criminal relationship
Sovict Union to translnit inlirrnration
with the Mafia, the CIA and South American drug dealers; about a secret *hcn tltc ccnsorship uas so stricl
variant of the Knights of Malta whose members are some of the world's thcrc. We'vc got compuler networks.
most powerful and evil menl about the long-term consequences of the that's one avcnuc lor distributing
CIA's recruitment of NAZI MURDERERS after WWII; and about how all inlbrnration. Mcanwhilc. we do have
of the above ties together. This is not llluminafzsl-style satire, but very ulternativc rlclio. We have Pacil-ica ancl
believable, chillingly-documented real-life data which neatly sums up some National Public Ratlio. where a lot ol'
of the world's darkest conspiracies in but a few breathtakingly-lucid inlirrnration gcts out that can't gct into
pages.
thc rna.jor rncdia. I think nrorc and
Here too, Wilson fans will get a ver.v intimate portrait of Wilson's life- nrore peoplc arc trwlrc of that whilc
and some real insight into the inner workings of this artist and visionary. listening to thosc raclio stations.
Although he consciously discards a conventional autobiographical struc- HT: We've been talking about hemp
ture, preferring a kind of holographically-cellular arrangement of being legalized. What do you think is
sparkling set pieces, CT2 ties together very neatly-and does indeed riff off the possibilit.v of an.v ps.vchedelic
the first volume. In both books Wilson talks frankly of the use of being legalized or even just accepted
psychedelics and marijuana, and continues to act as a convincing advocate
b1'the public?
of their intelligent and cautious use. But much that Wilson trumpeted in RAW: I'nr bcginnin-u to think thilt
the first CT, is not taken up here-perhaps because some of his more thcrc's a real clllrncc that rescarch will
extravagant projections failed to come about. He was rather optimistic in hc lcgalize'd again. Thcrc are nrorc lnd
his prediction firr the development of immortality by the '90s, and the nrorc pcoplc in thc psychothcrapcutic
establishment of an O'Neill-type space colony. He felt we were on the verge prof'cssions who arc speaking out. lntl
of making contact with interplanetary intelligences, in accordance with the it has bee n rclcgalizecl tirr resc'arch
development of an innate system of intelligence circuits that would eventu- purp()scs irr scvcnrl cotrnlries in
ally link us with the higher beings of the Cosmos. He was heavily into Europc: in Switzerlancl. Gcrnranl and
Aleister Crowley and Timothy Leary. He still resonates with both those Hollantl. anrong othcrs. There is de l'i-
sages-but they are far less a presence in CT2. Nevertheless, the underly- rritcly a lnovclncnt toward. at least.
ing concepts established in the first volume are still shining through. There lcgalizing rcscarclr again. lt cloes seen.r.
is indeed a powerful intellectual continuity here-and sometimes it with the passing 0l'linrc. that nlorc and
achieves an arc of connections which make one feel ghostly fingers hover- rnorc peoplc cln scc how stupicl it is to
ing over one's own inner Cosmic Trigger.... lirrbitl scicrrlil'ie rL'scurch irt an urcu
Shirley wherc thc rcscarch that was clonc thirty
-John
vcars ago \\'its so pronlstn,g.
(Order Cosmic Trigger ll for $12.95 + $1.48 postage from: New Falcon
Therc was cvitlencc. in the c'arly
Publications,7025 E. First Ave., Suite 5, Scottsdale, AZ 8525L) sixties whcn rcscarch was lcsal. that

14 HIGH TIMES Novembel 1991


LSD was useful in the treatment of ously, with a religious attitude or an HT: You sometimes talk about the
alcoholism, schizophrenia-all sorts of attitude of philosophical inquiry. evolutionary value of stupidity in
psychological problems. Leary took a HT: What do you mean by a reli- connection with the development of
bunch of convicts. and when he was gious attitude? these machines....
through with his therapy. the over- RAW: An expectation that your whole RAW: Yeah, I've often wondered why
whelming majority of them never com- world is going to collapse and that there's so much stupidity in the world.
mitted another crime for the rest of you're going to be rebom. If you don't It's got to be serving some function.
their lives. And for as far as the follow- expect that, if you think you're just Nothing survives a long-term evolution
up studies followed them, they were having fun, you're likely to have a ter- unless it has a function. And I finally
still law-abiding citizens-the most rible shock which can tiighten you. decided that the function of stupidity is
astonishing feat in the history of HT: That kind of experience might to force the intelligent to become more
behavioral science! There was all the be frightening to a lot of people. intelligent. The lnquisition vastly
evidence that people leam languages RAW: It is. It causes acute paranoia in accelerated science, and I think that the
faster with acid. And there was the New Inquisition that we're currently
research on religious experiences, like living through has inspired all sorts of
the Good Friday Experiment. creative work that wouldn't have hap-
All of that was so promising that pened if LSD had remained legal.
it's hard to believe that we can return People wouldn't have been searching
to the days of the Holy Inquisition, and
that promising areas of scientific
t'The main into so many alternatives if they'd had
LSD available tbr legal research.
research can be forbidden indefinitely. HT: In your recent novel, l,lature's
Especially, as I said, when it's begin-
ning to open up in Europe.
effect of God, you've got these great scenes
with George Washington smoking
HT: You mentioned the Good
Friday Experiment-what was that?
psychedelics some herb in his campaign tent. Is
this purely fiction, or do you think
RAW: That was an experiment in the
early sixties where twenty theology is to that cannabis really was influential
in the founding of the United States?
students were in a chapel on Good
Friday and ten of them got psilocybin break down RAW: Oh, George was a pothead!
That was documented by Dr. Michael
and ten of them got placebos. The ten
who got psilocybin all had mystical conditioned Aldrich back in the sixties. I quote a
lot of the documentation in two of my
experiences of the highest quality.
HT: What kind of research is being and imprinted previous books, in one ofthe appen-
dices to llluminatus!, and in Sex and
done in Europe, that you know of? Drugs [Playboy Press, '73].
RAW: Mostly, it's clinical. All that
I've read about is just that therapists
circuits in HT: Is there something inherent in
cannabis that had people thinking
are allowed to use
their patients.
it in the treatment of the brain.tt about independence?
RAW: You know, the first hemp law
HT: Is there a way that you'd like to we had in this country obliged fanners
see psychedelics used by this society? to grow it. Hemp was considered so
RAW: My personal opinion, based on valuable that they wanted everybody
what was done in the sixties, and what who owned a farm to grow some.
has been done underground-in a clan- Yeah, hemp played a major role in
destine way since-is that it's proba- American history. The Constitution
bly the wonder drug of the twentieth politicians who've never used it, and was written on hemp paper. The
century, much more than penicillin. it's done some damage to people who Declaration of Independence was writ-
Intelligently used, acid has nearly infi- have tried it. If they're not prepared ten on hemp. All ol our early ships
nite potential. properly. were built largely out of hemp.
HT: Do you think that a resurgence HT: Do you think electronic highs- HT: What about the buzz itself? Did
in psvchedelic use now would pro- light and sound machines, or electro- that altered state affect the thought
duce the same kind of cultural fer- magnetic headsets-<an fulfill some and events that were going on at that
ment that it did in the sixties- of the same uses? . time?
bringing ideas up to the surface? RAW: Not yet. but I tlrink we're get- RAW: Yeah. Pancho Villa was another
RAW: Undoubtedly. The main effect ting closer to that all the time. I expect pothead. I think if you compare the
of psychedelics is to break down con- within two or three years we will have military campaigns of Washington and
ditioned and imprinted circuits in the electronic equivalents. There are dif- Villa, you'll see that they were both
brain. You start using your brain in ferent machines that are approaching it influenced by marijuana. They wcre
new ways. which nreans new impres- from difl'erent angles. I don't know very nonlinear, that's why they kept
sions, new perceptions and new ideas. where the breakthrough will occur. going so long against such impossible
HT: How can clandestine experi- There are so many different types of odds. The British were thinking in a
menters with psychedelics approach brain-altering machines that someone linear, Aristotelian way, and
these experiences? is going to come up with one that acts Washington was thinking in a
RAW: It should be approached seri- just like LSD. nonlinear way. That's how he wore

HIGH TIMES November 1991 t5


them down over six years. have already heard of them, and they my computer printing out pictures of
HT: Do you think there is a way to yell "Praise 'Bob"'and "Hail Eris" and Hugh Hefner?" I never realized "Bob"
approach the headspace of George things like that. I was at MIT recently looked like Hugh Hefner until I read
Washington for the purpose of gain- and I saw in one of the men's rooms, that.
ing individual autonomy, which written on the wall, "'Bob' is the only HT: Is the Discordian Church, such
seems to be the present battle? hope now." So, definitely, these reli- asit ever was, still at large?
RAW: There's a Sufi RAW: Oh, it's very
word, that I don't
remember, for the man
"...Lthink that the New actrve.
HT: What's the evi-
who drinks wine in Inquisition that we're currently dence of that?
secret and doesn't get
caught. Jesus said, "Be living through has inspired all RAW: The Chaos
Computer Club in
as harmless as doves
and as subtle as ser-
sorts of creative work that y-they infil-
ffated the whole
pents." In a mad world,
one has to pretend to be
wouldn't have happened if LSI) American defense [com-
puterl system.
at least partly mad in
order to pass as normal,
had remained legal." HT: Are there
Discordians active to
Or, as J.R. "Bob" Dobbs says-Praise that extent in the USA?
"Bob"-"Act like a dumb shit and gions are impacting all over our cul- RAW: One hears rumors.
they'll treat you like an equal." ture. There was an Atari computer a
HT: Do you think that the rise of while back that, when you first tried to IRobert Anton Wilson's latest books
strange new religions-like the use the printer, it printed out a hundred include a novel, Nature's God
Church of the SubGenius [who "Bob" heads before it would do any- (RoclNAL; the third installment in the
6'Bob" Dobbsl-is thing else. Historical Illuminatus Chronicles), and
"worship" J.R.
having some effect on the culture? HT: Was that intentional or a virus? two nonfiction efforts, Quantum
RAW: When I first started talking RAW: That was somebody at Atari. Psychology (New Falcon) and Cosmic
about these deliberately surrealist reli- Atari gave up trying to find out who Trigger lI (see review). A fourth novel
gions ten years ago, most people had did it and just sent a letter of explana- in the Historical Illuminatus series,
never heard of them. Now when I talk tion to people who complained. People The World Turned Upside Down, rs
about them, people in the audience were writing in and saying, "Why is presently in the works.lO

TI{ E R.EA, I-II5T


Mort Sahl once called The Realist "probably the most vital publication in the United States." That was back in 1963. And
now it's being published again. Same editor-Paul Krassner-and same editorial policy.
Ihe laboos may have changed, but irreverence is slill our only sacred cow.
The Realistis a unique newsletler ol social and political satire.
We also publish investigative journalism. Howeuer, we never put labels 0n s0 as not t0 deprive readers 0f the plea-
sure of discerning fotthemselves whethel an ailicle is actuallytrue or merely a logicalextension olthe truth.
0ut lasl 5 issues-still available-feature the lollowing:
tRoberl Anton Wilson covers lhe Firct International 0rgasm *Gomputerized
Kiddie Porn
Gonference *The underground women's mouemenl rising up lrom the
*Why Andrew Dice
Clay ls No Lenny Bruce chauvinisl sands of Saudi-Arabia
*The Role of Richard Nixon and George Bush in lhe *Behind lhe rash gerbil jokes
ol
Assassinalion of President Kennedy *Was it a
conspiracy by the Disney empire that brought about
*The Psychedelic
Gurus Reunion lhe strange dealh of Muppet-master Jim Henson?
*Michael and Me-the making of a film by Roger Smlth show- *A debate
between Spike Lee and Tom Wolfe
ing General Motors' side of the story *Marijuana and the American Bar Associalion-by Eugene
*A hilarious report (formerly "Dr. Hip") Schoenfeld, M.D.
on the Populal Culture Convention
*LAPD Ghief Daryl Gates' Resignalion *How lhe
Speech, as leaked to Second Goming will take place-on TV, of course
Harry Shearer-his column that the Los Angeles Times relused to tA survey 0f standup comics on theil
iokes about the
publish *The Goma Diet Cookbook McMartin notguilty verdicl-as requesled by parents of the vic-
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*Why the Administration deliberately lried to throw Noriega's *Fetal Attraclion: how lwo conceplual
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16 HIGH TlllES ]{ovembet l99l

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