Genius Network - Brian Kurtz and Marty Edelston Interviewed by Joe Polish

GeniusNetwork.
com
Interview Series
Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

An Interview with Boardroom Inc. Founder Marty Edelston
And Boardroom Inc. Vice President Brian Kurtz
Joe Polishs Tempe, Arizona office headquarters for Piranha Marketing is

often referred to by marketing insiders as action central for much of the entrepreneurial world. Though he made his fortune in an almost invisible niche by
telling carpet cleaners how to crush the competition and turn their small local
businesses into money-churning machines, he is now among the most wellknown, respected, complete marketing geniuses in the world.
Consulting clients from many different countries each happily pay up to $20,000
a day just to hear his advise. His boot camps attract convention-sized audiences
full of famous entrepreneurs and many of the superstars of marketing and
advertising.
In a business environment bristling with false prophets and bad advice, Joes
unique mix of real-world experience and stunning financial success has earned
him a spot among the most trusted experts alive. His one-of-a-kind recorded
interview series, The Genius Network is a Whos Who of super-savvy
marketing and advertising brilliance.
No one refuses an interview with Joe. He has the gift of gab and the insight of a
business veteran whos earned his success. The best in the biz seek him out. He
knows the good, the bad, and the ugly of whats working and whats not
working on the Web, in infomercials, in direct response ads and direct mail, in
niche marketing, in personal coaching and in every critical area of the
entrepreneurial landscape.
The business world is moving faster than ever before. Staying close to the action
means paying attention to Joe Polish and Piranha Marketing.
info@GeniusNetwork.com
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Sample
Text

Joe:
Hello, friends and clients! This is Joe Polish, President of Piranha

Marketing. And today, I have got a couple of fantastic people that Im
going to be interviewing, from a company that youve heard a lot about,
which is Boardroom, Inc. Can you guys hear me okay?
Brian:
Yes.
Joe:
Tell me where youre at-right now. Im in Tempe, Arizona and were on

the phone. Wheres your new offices located?
Marty:
Were in Stanford, overlooking the Long Island Sound.
Joe:
Awesome! Well, thank you both for taking the time to be on the phone
with me and doing this interview. Im going to get right into some
questions.
Marty, youre a legend in the direct marketing business. You run
the largest consumer newsletter business, Bottom Line Personal, along
with all your other publications. The majority of my listeners are very
familiar with Boardroom, and I would like to just pull whatever wisdom I
can get out of that brain of yours. I know theres a lot. And along with you,
Brian, you are an expert in direct marketing.
I just want to go into talking about, first, books. What are your
favorite books, Marty? And give the listeners kind of some background on
reading and what you perceive to be valuable material to read.
Marty:
The best books Ive ever read are things like How To Win Friends And
Influence People, How To Get Control Of Your Time And Your Life. And
Im using the principles of a good friend of mine his life is very
scattered. So Im getting him to write down, I hope, the things he wants to
accomplish in the rest of his life. I guess hes about 50, 55. Hes so
scattered, he hasnt done it yet. So I just write him a note every couple of
days and say, How are you doing on your top 10?
As soon as I get that list from him, Im going to send it back and
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The great
books are
what kind
of makes
the world
go
around...

put it in order, which is the most important, second-most, etc. And thats
all from Allen Lanken.
My favorite book though, I think from a development standpoint,
is Lateral Thinking, by Edward De Bono. Hes written all kinds of books
on thinking. Everybody should know about thinking. They dont teach that
in any school in America. Lateral Thinking is available in the bookstores,
and its a superb book.
Essentially, I dont know why it got the name lateral. I think of it
more as vertical thinking. Just keep thinking on your subject until
something comes through properly.
Brian:
All those books, Marty keeps copies of them in the office, gives them out
to people not just employees, but people outside. And hes kind of taught
us that the great books are what kind of makes the world go around and
that when I interview somebody for a new job here or we talk about how
are you going to get your life in order, whether we hire them or not, these
books are what Marty would call the great books. Some people will say
the great books are Charles Dickens and Nathaniel Hawthorne. I dont
think theres any fiction in the list of Martys great books.
And Ill add one other quickie. Weve always wanted to and this
is sort of maybe a statement on what most people read and what they dont
read and why people do spend so much time going around in circles - we
wanted to do a book that takes all these great books and puts excerpts into
a larger version, like a big hard-cover book with all the best of the great
books. Dale Carnegie How To Win Friends, Allen Lanken How To Get
Control of Your Time and Your Life, Edward De Bono Lateral Thinking, I
think Herbert Bensons The Relaxation Response was one of them.
When we started putting this book together, we realized that no one
really wanted to read it, which is really sad. We couldnt sell it. I will say
that. Everybody wants to read it, but it was a very tough book for us to sell
and actually make a profitable venture out of. And it really kind of speaks
to a lot of what our whole business is about, that the stuff thats really
important, a lot of times, people ignore whats right under their nose.
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...It!s
always
useful to
find out
what it is
that
prompts
your
thinking...
Joe:

Absolutely. What I would say, and the reason I asked that question, is that
I look at what you do at Boardroom with the newsletters as really a
distillation of wisdom. I think what Marty, your genius is, is the ability to
look at all the data of the world and distill out the wisdom, whats really
important for people to live better lives, run better businesses.
And with your ability to go through the enormous amounts of
information thats out there and pullout the useful stuff and deliver it to
your readers in the way that you do is brilliant, because as the world
becomes more complex with information overload and everything, I dont
think people want to just sit around and read books and newspapers and
go to seminars and all that stuff. Some people enjoy doing it, but what
really is the reason people do it, I believe, is because they want results.
And the way you get results is you acquire capabilities.
So I look at what you guys are doing as really distilling wisdom out
of mountains and mountains of data thats out there, and then providing it
to your clients in a way thats useful to them and they can get capabilities
in their life.
So thats the reason that I ask, because its always useful to find out
what it is that prompts your thinking and has allowed you to get insights
in the way that you live your life and run your business.
Brian:
I think the fact that we continue to be very successful in a world of

information overload, that the idea that anything that we provide in our
publications - theoretically - you could get on the internet in a nanosecond,
if you have the right cable modem.
However, I think what you hit on is really key, Joe, that Martys
pension for knowing whats important in a particular book, in an article,
what the nugget is thats going to help you do something, that we can
actually format that still in a way that people really want it and they still
want to buy it; as opposed to knowing if they did the research on their
own, they probably wouldnt come up with the same kinds of conclusions.
Thats an amazing thing for us. Marty, did you want to add something?
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...if you
pick up a
book and
read two
or three
pages out
of it, just
pick up
something
from it,
and then
put that
book
away...
Marty:

I was just going to say how exciting it is going through this stuff. And
when youve been doing it for over 30 years, as I have, it gets easier and
more exciting when you find the nugget that you want to turn around.
It comes from conversations, too. I was just talking to one of my
friends who runs a farm newsletter in Texas, and I asked her what was
new. And she told me a bazaar story, that she was working with a radio
farmer, that farmers would call in and give him problems and he would
solve it. And one of the problems was dealing with the fungus in the fields.
So he told them to just put cornmeal on his fungus.
A week later, some guy calls in and says, I had fungus on my
toenails and I listened to your program, and I tried that cornmeal and it
worked perfectly. My nails are fantastic now. And as that story got
around, theyre getting calls regularly on the radio to soak your feet in
cornmeal.
Brian:
I just want to add one little addendum, also, to this whole thing about
reading and getting the nuggets, Joe. Because I think when Marty said this
to me many, many years ago, it was so meaningful because I think people
look at their bookshelves and they see dozens and dozens of books, and
its very intimidating. And they say, How am I going to get to all of that?
I have this pile to read and I have that pile to read. And Im never going to
get to all of it.
I remember Marty looked at me once, when I was complaining
about that one day, and he said, You know, if you pick up a book and read
two or three pages out of it, just pick up something from it, and then put
that book away and pick up another book, and pick up another few pages,
that all of a sudden the intimidation factor of seeing these huge, thick
books on your bookshelf becomes kind of a fun thing, as opposed to this
pile that is staring you in the face, that you think youre not really
fulfilling at the highest level.
And I think thats the way that Bottom Line is written. So I think
you can read like that and get a ton out of the great books. And I find that
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...make
sure
you get
something
useful
that you
can use in
your
everyday
life...

most of the books on my shelf, I have not read cover-to-cover.

Marty:
Yeah. Thats our great books, not the great books.
Brian:
Not the great books, right. Our great books. But I think in books in
general. I think the great books, eventually you do want to try to get to
them cover-to-cover. But when you can, make sure you get something
useful that you can use in your everyday life. And these great books are
chock full of stuff.
Joe:
Absolutely. What you guys do is a service to millions of consumers. You

actually go through so much information and you identify what is useful
and you put it together in a very user-friendly, readable format thats just
chock full of useful stuff. And, on top of that, you do a phenomenal job of
marketing that knowledge, which is two-fold of what I want to talk about.
Brian:
Ill give you one final quote on that, Joe.
Joe:
Okay.
Brian:
A consultant once said that Marty invented hypertext in 1971 and didnt
even know it.
Joe:
Really? Now, you started Boardroom, Marty, in 1972. Correct?
Marty:
Correct.
Joe:
And just maybe real quick, background on what caused you to go into that
business.
Marty:
Well, primarily, I was very annoyed. I commuted from Jersey to New York
and Id be on the commuter bus, reading, and Id see people with business
magazines reading, too. I got really troubled by that, because I figured they
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I realized
I didn!t
have
enough
money to
start a
magazine,
so I
started a
newsletter.

were getting something out of it and I couldnt get anything out of the
magazines. They were about IBM and AT&T. And I wanted to know how
to buy and sell, how to manage, how to plan. There are books on that.
Usually, in each book, theres one good chapter.
So I thought about it and thought about it. I said, Im not crazy!
These magazines are terrible. But there is a way to get the essence of that
one good chapter in every book, and there are a lot of experts out there.
So I played around with the idea of a magazine, realized I didnt
have enough money to start a magazine, so I started a newsletter. And with
a lot of work and attention to detail, it got off to a good start.
Joe:
Right now, what is the current size of Boardroom, Inc.? What does it
consist of, in terms of publications and subscribers?
Marty:
Weve got almost a million subscribers to Bottom Line Personal. And then
we have 3 special newsletters. One is on health, another on retirement, and
another one on taxes.
Brian:
And then, I think, with the book division, which has become a big part of
our organization, we made them all the same subject areas. We started
developing books on taxes and retirement, on consumer information and
on health, and expanded all of that so that we could create our great books
from the same subject areas that we saw the newsletters going.
One thing thats really important, I think, for your listeners to know
is that, in some ways, Boardroom, Inc. is kind of a misnomer, in that were
not a business publisher, although everything we supply can help you in
both your personal and your business life.
But interestingly, over time, we kind of let the marketplace help us
dictate what direction to go. And we went from Boardroom Reports as the
flagship to Bottom Line Personal as the flagship. So the executive at home
was a much more lucrative market for us and one that needed a lot more
from us.
Maybe not needed, because I think that the executive at business
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Anything
that looks
like it
could
have some
useful
information,
we buy.

still needed quite a bit as well. But we had a harder time reaching them.
So from a marketing standpoint, going after the executive at home
was a much better way, and Bottom Line became sort of the key brand.
And, in fact, before Boardroom Reports was eventually folded into Bottom
Line, actually we folded it into Tax Hotline, Boardroom Reports was called
Bottom Line Business before it folded.
So we actually changed the name and, really, so many things in the
company now are... In fact, I think we just printed up some hats that say
Bottom Line Information on them, because Bottom Line has become the
real brand.
But Boardroom, Inc. is very important, I think, for our company to
be called because in direct marketing circles, Boardroom is a direct
marketing university. Its a place that people know of. And I think to
change the name of the company to Bottom Line is something that is
probably not a great way to go, but its important for your listeners to
know that Bottom Line is probably the brand of recognition, at this point,
to the general consumer.
Joe:
Absolutely. Just being out there, I would certainly agree thats where most
people have the recognition and knowledge of it. Oh, you ever heard of
Bottom Line Personal? Yeah, yeah. Ive seen that.
What is the secret to going through all of the stuff, all of the data,
all the information out there that you guys do, and distilling that wisdom
into readable, exciting, interesting formats? How do you do it?
Marty:
We have a big machine that starts out with books and magazines.
Whenever we read about some new magazine, we look into subscribing to
it. We have subscriptions to some publications that cost us over $500 a
year. We dont wait for publishers to send us review copies, we go out and
buy them. So anything that looks like it could have some useful
information, we buy.
Joe:
And I imagine, Marty, you probably spend a lot of time reading.
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...question
everything
and be
curious.

Marty:
I do. But we all do. Not the marketing people, but the editorial people go
through piles very efficiently. Theyve been doing it for years. They are
incredibly efficient.
So we go through and rip it out. And we have writers we send the
rips to, who are very experienced in pulling the essence out of each idea
and doing it legally, because we cant just copy a few words. We have to
adhere to certain legal restraints.
Brian:
Id like just a quick add-on. One thing Id like to add. And I think Martys
even being a little modest in that he really has taught everybody, on the
editorial staff especially, to question everything and be curious. That
doesnt sound like any kind of a deep, dark secret, but most people dont
question everything and most people arent curious enough to get to the
crux of things.
I think, also, that our story meetings - and if you ever sat in on our
story meetings, which I have - as a marketer, Im just fascinated by the
ideas flying around the table about lets do an article on this, how about
this, whats this. So theres a constant communication of whats the angle
that hasnt been explored before.
And then at the end of that discussion its, Whos is the number
one expert on that particular expert, that we can go find? And usually, its
someone whos written the book on it, the quintessential book on it. And
then thats where the bigger articles come from, in terms of the interviews,
what we call the A stories.
So that, combined with this voracious reading and questioning
everything, and being curious and ripping out every article that might have
a tidbit that we can add into the publication, Im just amazed at the big
articles that come up and the big questions that end up getting answered.
Its a tribute to the network that Marty has built over the years, making
sure that were in touch with all of the best experts in the country, on every
single topic.
Ive just been sitting there, as a beneficiary of being able to meet
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...to
bring them
the best
Joe:
information
from
the most
knowledgeable
sources...

the experts in every area of life. I couldnt have been luckier to have had
that opportunity. Im a marketer; Im not even an editor.
Im going to read something here on the inside front cover of Bottom Line
Personal, your newsletter. It says, Purpose. I love this. I think it just
really spells out what you guys do. It says, Purpose: to help those who are
very busy with their careers handle their personal lives more effectively;
to bring to them the best information from the most knowledgeable
sources; to select and generate that information free from the influence of
advertising.
That just kind of spells out what it is that you do with finding the
expertise, putting it into a format thats not a huge, daunting thing to read,
and just giving people enormous amounts of extremely useful information,
free from advertising. Id like to ask have you ever considered using
advertising or is there a reason why you have not done that?
Marty:
Yes, Ive considered it many times through the years. And I even figured
out how to bring it in. But I think at this time, it would be breaking a
promise to our readers. We never got into serious discussions.
Brian:
Id like to add another thing to that, too. I dont know if you know. If you
remember from Martys bio, he spent most of his career - before starting
Boardroom - as a salesman. And in most of that selling that he did, he was
selling advertising space in magazines.
So I think its the ultimate irony that probably the best space
salesman of all time ends up launching the best publication that doesnt
have any advertising.
Joe:
I think its hysterical that that is. Thats one of the reasons why I bring it
up, because I was going to ask you, Marty, a couple of questions
regarding you selling advertising in the past.
Brian:
There is that aspect. It is a great irony, though, because I think that what
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If you
could
maybe
define
what an
"expert#
is, in your
opinion...

its done is its given us, as Marty said, its really given us an incredible
credibility with our readers. It would be really hard to make it seem like
were not being objective when we go out to these experts. Were not
doing laboratory testing when we do ratings of things and we do
consumer-type information, but we really have to be respectful that the
person that were going to, the expert that were going to is giving us their
best thinking.
In addition, I think that the experts stay with us and they come back
for more, in terms of they do multiple articles with us over multiple years,
and they keep coming back and they stay friends with us because were so
cautious and meticulous about making sure that we dont misquote them.
They get how many passes, Marty? 2, 3 passes of their articles before we
actually go to press, so that they can change things at the last minute?
Really, its the opposite of when Marty and I get interviewed for
the press in direct marketing. If youre quoted correctly, its the exception
as opposed to being misquoted. In our editorial, one of the claims to fame,
I think, is that everybody whos ever been a source will tell you that they
love being a source for us because we take such good care of them.
Joe:
Yes. If you were to put your publications next to magazines out there,
theres no comparison, what you provide in terms of content and usable
information versus what is in most advertising-filled publications out
there. Its a joke compared to how much useful content is contained in one
of your publications.
Let me ask you a question. Youve already talked about it a little
bit, but Id like to have you elaborate a little bit more on how you
actually find true experts. And maybe if you could even define what is an
expert, in your opinion, either Marty or you, Brian.
Brian:
This is for Marty
Marty:
Well, first of all, we have a load of experts and our databank is gigantic.
But we have a sense, if were doing a piece in a particular area, which of
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If I don!t
understand
it, it!s got
to be
redone
and
redone
until I do.

those has been most provocative in the past, most constructive. And then
we go to them.
If we dont have an expert in that area, well go to our experts that
are in a related area. They have their own networks, so we get fabulous
people that way.
Brian:
Marty, at one time, didnt you think that - and I guess its like more
people can publish books these days than ever before, so its not a criteria
as it was - the idea of getting a book published and having it become kind
of the work, the seminal work on a particular topic has always made
somewhat of an impression on it or makes a difference to you?
Marty:
Well, that helps us come up with ideas, watching the book flow. And then,
if we decide to pursue it, our writers can read the book first and have much
more effective interviews, just like you do, Joe. You do a lot of research
before you do your interviews.
Joe:
Yeah, absolutely. It helps. Thats really what you guys are. Youre a
gigantic research and reporting company.
Marty:
And its got to be very clear, because I read everything. If I dont

understand it, its got to be redone and redone until I do.
Joe:
I can imagine you being a very meticulous person in that particular area.
Lets talk about that a little bit. How many current employees do you have
at Boardroom right now?
Marty:
We have 85.
Joe:
85? And your revenue is, of course, in the million-dollar-per-employee

range.
Marty:
Actually, we do close to $l00 million.
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"Don!t
Joe:
delegate,
coordinate.#

Which, I think and correct me if Im wrong from what Ive read, thats
5 times the revenue per employee compared to the majority of Fortune 500
companies?
Marty:
Thats correct.
Joe:
So youre doing something right in that department. When I was reading

some background information about you, articles that youve been Direct
Marketer of the Year for Target Marketing, youve been in Investors
Business Daily: Leaders In Success, which is one of my favorite pages in
any newspaper. They actually wrote about you. You made comments about
the employees and delegation. And I read that you dont delegate, you
coordinate. And if you could, could you explain this? And also, please
explain what you mean when you say, Managed by agenda?
Marty:
Yes. They tie in together. I do give projects to people that I meet with
regularly to follow-up on and ask more questions as it moves along.
Through the years, I have a lot of energy and I can work with a lot
of people, I dont have to work with 85 every day, but Ive developed
different systems that allow me to follow-up and follow-up with people.
Joe:
When I went down and visited you guys, probably 3, 4 years ago, do you
still keep mini recorders on peoples desk, to leave messages and stuff for?
Because I remember picking up that idea when I was there, and I use it
here at Piranha.
Brian:
Mini recorders?
Joe:
There was like a mini recorder. I dont know if Marty did this. It was a
mini recorder. It was on a couple of the peoples desk where, when they
would work with each other, theyd go and leave a message for someone
on the top of everyones desk, when theyre just giving an idea or a
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...making
sure that
all the
ideas get
to the
right
person
who can
implement
them is
critical...

delegation. Do you do that at all?

Brian:
The I-Power System, with the advent of e-mail and I guess youre going
to ask us a little bit more about I-Power...
Joe:
Oh, yeah. Thats one of the best things.
Brian:
Its a suggestion hat system, but its much more than that. But I think that
there are a lot of opportunities between e-mail, voicemail, constant notes
going back and forth. I dont know if theres anyone methodology thats
better than another, but the idea of making sure that all the ideas get to the
right person who can implement them is critical to how the company
works.
And I think the other aspect of that, thats I think really been
amazing to watch this company, because weve been doing it for quite a
long time, the concept of managing by agenda, so many of our meetings,
the way the meeting gets organized is that everybody gets a blank sheet in
advance of the meeting with some key headings. What Im concerned
about. What Id like to discuss with everybody. Whats coming up.
Opportunities. Accomplishments. Sort of like big headings. And
everybody whos coming to the meeting will put something onto that
agenda under one of those headings and then someone, whoever is
organizing the meeting, can put all of that together.
What happens is the agenda is being created by the employees and
whats on their minds, what things need to be prioritized at a higher level.
I just think its an amazing system that, again, is so simple but the results
are fantastic. The kinds of ideas that start running around the table when
someone puts one of their accomplishments on there - not because they
want to brag, but because they were told to put an accomplishment on the
agenda - and then someone else can feed off of that and come up with
another idea thats better or different or an extension of.
Thats the way the company really works. Its not so much whether
its a recording device on someones desk or whether its an e-mail
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Overall,
the system
is a great
success...
but it
started
out as a
failure.

correspondence, or whether its items on a long agenda that the

participants of the meeting are actually contributing. All of that, I think,
contributes to the same type of thing in terms of managing by agenda and
making sure that the priorities are in right place.
Marty:
What I do now, Brian was really describing how our executive committee,
which has about 20 people on it, runs. Now I come to the meetings with a
pocket full of money. If I hear good ideas, I award them to the people. I
decided to put a penalty on. If they dont give us an idea for the agenda,
they have to pay $2. And if they dont show up at the meeting, they have
to pay $3.
Brian:
Right. And then Marty will maybe use it for refreshments. So sometimes
theres a payoff for those of us who always bring good ideas to the
meeting.
Joe:
Exactly.
Brian:
Ive been eating very well. I will tell you that.
Joe:
Thats great. What I think it really boils down to - and Id like you to go
into the I-Power System, I think its phenomenal and Id like you to
describe that to the listeners - is what you said earlier in the interview,
Marty, right at the very beginning, where people dont think. And I think
youve developed a system that just gives people the ability to think, and
you reward them for thinking and now youve instilled a punishment
system if they dont. And youve transformed your business, as a result of
doing it. And I know youve transformed many companies businesses
with this management system and with the idea generation. So if you
could maybe give us a background on I-Power.
Marty:
Sure. Very briefly. Actually, its a failure. Overall, the program is a great
success. But it started out as a failure. It came from a conversation with
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"...have
everybody
come to
the
meeting
with an
idea on
how to
make the
business
grow...#

Peter Drucker. I was with him one time and he said, Want to make your
meetings more interesting? I said, Sure. He said, Well, have
everybody come to the meeting with an idea on how to make the business
grow or how to cut costs. I thought that was great and I had a meeting
scheduled for some people the next day. And I sent a little note around,
asking the people to make some suggestions. It was a fantastic meeting,
and I wrote everything down as fast as I could. Then I lost the list.
So I did it again and I got another pile of good ideas, and I lost that
list. And thats not good. So I sat down and thought it through. I just cant
do it all. So I had everybody, at the next meeting, write it down. And then
we developed little pads for them to fill it in on. And I went through them.
Brian:
Actually, the key was making those little two- or three-part. So one copy
would go to Marty to evaluate, but then one would go into a hat so that it
could be registered in a more central database of ideas so that they never
got lost. Plus, I think it was very important, at that point in our history, for
Marty to be looking at all of them because he had the best aerial view of
the company and what could be the big ideas and what could be the stuff
that we should just do it and that type of stuff.
So the evaluation phase was very important. It was important for
Marty to evaluate, but it was also important to give the people credit for
the ideas and to have them posted and all that. So I think the combination
of a system that documented them plus gave Marty an opportunity to still
evaluate them was the beginning of why the system worked so well.
I think, also, and I dont say this critically, that most suggestion hat
systems or suggestion boxes or whatever, the system runs out very
quickly. People lose momentum because even if theyre putting ideas in
the hat, no ones checking the hat, no ones checking the box, no ones
really committed to it.
And I think what we did with I-Power, as Marty says in his book,
is we made it really, really simple, so that it became part of the fabric of
everybodys job. It really wasnt something that was a separate thing, that
everybody felt was this box that was sitting in some central part of the
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By
setting up
quantity
systems
first, it
gave us
a much
better
quality
system.

company. We had I-Power hats allover the place. We had more hats than
water coolers. So there was just so much opportunity for idea generation,
idea submission, idea checking - and again, I dont say this critically - it
became more quantity than quality in the initial stages because you just
wanted to get as many ideas out there as you could on a regular basis, and
then worry about evaluating them.
And Ive seen a lot of suggestion systems that, if the quality is
evaluated right away, it diminishes, first of all, everybodys self-worth
because they come up with an idea and you say, Well, we cant do that
now, so Im not putting that in the hat. That takes away their motivation
to come back again with an idea later on.
So the idea is to get the number out there first, and then evaluate it.
Its sort of like a brainstorming concept, that quantity is important and
dont evaluate them right away. Well have more than enough time to
evaluate them later. And I think by setting up quantity systems first, it gave
us a much better quality system, in my opinion anyway.
Marty:
We had a lucky accident. Through some of the ideas, we started making a

lot of money, and then more money. And I realized I had to share that with
the people. So we set up a quarterly distribution and called it profitsharing.
One time, I was working on that distribution and I realized that
some people are submitting the ideas and others arent. So we set a quota
and insisted that everybody shares in the I-Power now and has for a long
time. So we give them some of the profits that were making, and they feel
very good about them.
Our system has been running for 11 years. Its had one interesting
side benefit that no one could have predicted, that in those same 11 years
our staff of 85 to 100 employees has not had a single divorce. And in this
time, thats incredible. I just think the system supports their egos, so they
can deal with the arguments at home better.
Joe:
Wow! Thats interesting. I first came into the funnel with your company
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...and not
having
people feel
like their
bateries
were
drained
by giving
ideas that
never go
anywhere.

and organization by attending an I-Power seminar that was put on by an

absolutely fantastic guy by the name of Ken Glickman.
Brian:
Youve done tapes with Ken. Like two of them.
Joe:
Oh, yeah. I did an interview on I-Power with Ken, which I encourage

everyone of my listeners whos hearing this, if youd like to hear that, I
highly recommend it on top of the book, which they can get directly
through you guys. Correct?
Brian:
Yeah. You can get it in bookstores, I guess. I havent gone on Amazon

recently, or Barnes and Noble, to see how easy it is to buy online. Chances
are, if its someone that knows you, Joe, that Marty will probably
autograph a copy for them.
Joe:
That would be great. I would highly recommend any of the listeners, if you
want to learn more about I-Power, Marty did write a book called I-Power:
The Secrets Of Great Business In Bad Times. And Ive got it sitting here
right in front of me, and the I stands for - theres all kinds of things - but
what it says on the cover of the book is ideas, ingenuity, invention,
incentive, individual, invigorate, inquisitive, innovation, inspiration,
intelligence, imagination and improvement. And its all about just constant
improvement. And its an awesome system.
Its a system that we use at Piranha, and I know youve had
hundreds, if not thousands of companies incorporate this system. I think
its one of the most amazing systems of idea generation and not having
people feel like their batteries were drained by giving ideas that never go
anywhere just because of the little tweaks that youve done. And I think
the mistakes and the failures that you talk about, Marty, in the beginning;
is what has allowed you to develop the program to the level that it is.
Correct me if Im wrong. Didnt your revenue, once you started
using your system of having your employees bring ideas to the table,
didnt it go something from like $25-million in revenue to over $100-
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million without adding any staff?

Marty:
Thats correct. Incredible.
Joe:
Yeah, that is huge. I didnt want to skip over it, because I think a lot of
people that have never heard about this, that will be listening to this
interview right now, dont realize the impact of this system that you have
developed. So Id encourage anyone to read the book and to get more
information. Anything else that you two would like to add about I-Power?
Marty:
I think thats more than enough.
Joe:
Okay.
Brian:
If you have any ideas for us, Joe, send them along.
Joe:
I have a million.
Brian:
I know. Youre an idea machine yourself.
Joe:
I love I-Power. I think its awesome. I think every business in America well, all over the world - could dramatically benefit and utilize I-Power. I
love it. Thats what Ill say.
Lets go back to your past life, before Boardroom, where you sold
ad space in the Yellow Pages, Cosmo, years ago. Id like to ask you, Marty,
what did it teach you? And can you maybe elaborate on a story or two,
where you made it easy for the other guy, the guy or gal to buy
advertising from you, to say yes?
Marty:
The Yellow Pages was my first job at college. When I sat down the first
day, the woman next to me said, I hope you last longer than the last guy.
Incidentally, that noise that you hear now is the Edelston hour.
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I sat down
and made
a list of
all the
objections
that
people
threw at
me...

Brian:
Marty has about 25 clocks in his office, and hes got a lot of different
alarms and stuff. I think when we start getting the big alarms, Marty, we
might have to take a break from this interview and go to the bathroom or
something.
Joe:
You know what? Well go right back to what youre going to say, Marty. I
have actually seen some of Martys art collection. So at some point during
this interview, Marty, if you could maybe share some of your insights on
it because you have one of the most eccentric, wild offices and art
collections that a person is ever going to see.
Brian:
Meaningful art, too. Every piece has a lesson. So thats the amazing thing.
Joe:
Absolutely. You gave me a tour of the whole place, explaining what

different things meant. Talk about the two trapeze people, people working
together. And the clubs, I remember the clubs of virtues. Im not sure if
Im getting that right.
Marty:
Its perfect.
Joe:
Okay, so you were talking to someone about advertising space.
Marty:
Yeah. At Yellow Pages, I sold more increases in business than anyone else
in a 40-person office. And that came from just not wanting to get fired. I
planned every night - I was single at the time - and I went out all day and
made more calls than anyone else. More people said no to me than any
other salesmen, but more said yes also. So it was the yeses that counted.
The nos werent so bad. But then, I didnt like the nos, so I came up with
a system and I had a notebook. At the end of every day, I sat down and
made a list of all the objections that people threw at me, whether they
crippled my pitch or not. I made a list. Oh, thats another one of my clocks
here.
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People
spend the
majority
of their
lives at
work.
They
should
come to a
place that
has a
personality
behind it.

Brian:
Theres a train going around a clock right now.
Joe:
You know, we should have this on video. That would be actually very cool.
You should probably snap some pictures of this stuff for me; and then
when people hear this interview, theyll actually know what it is that
theyre hearing in the background.
Marty:
I apologize, Joe.
Joe:
No, hey, what the heck. You have a huge company. Youve earned your
success. If you want to have 4-million clocks in your office and all kinds
of crazy things, I certainly think youre entitled to it and I think it adds an
enormous amount of life.
Brian:
It feeds into the culture of the company. Theres an incredible love and
spirit that are throughout this company. And having been here for 22 years
and seeing it grow, that spirit hasnt changed one bit in the whole time Ive
been here. Its only gotten better. Its only gotten even more familial, more
loving, and more ingenious.
Joe:
Yeah. And isnt that what it should be all about? People spend the
majority of their lives at work. They should come to a place that has a
personality behind it. Most offices you walk into are so dully-boring and
bureaucratic, to me its nauseating.
Brian:
Yeah, I know. Were not that. I will say, too, Marty, you mentioned that
there is no no. Thats become one of our credos. Even today, in 2003,
where everything is sales when you think about it, whether its selling
through direct mail, whether its trying to create a partnership with
another company, whether its negotiating what were going to have for
lunch. There is no no. Marty has got us all thinking in those terms all the
time. And I think it started in those early days at the Yellow Pages, that
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I think
planning
pays.

there was no no. Even his nos, he learned something from. But then he
went back to them, got his objections on paper.
Those sales lessons are so universal for how we run our business
today. And its not a question of just being pushy salespeople. Were very
aggressive in our direct mail. We do, I think, some of the best sales copy
thats ever been written. And I think its no coincidence that the company
was founded by the best salesman ever. That part, I think, has transcended
the whole history of this company.
Joe:
What else would you say, Marty, just on sales?
Marty:
I think planning pays. So I planned each of my calls. I knew just what I

wanted to do. Sometimes, Id walk in on a customer with 2 arms full of
Yellow Page books from allover the country, show them different kinds of
ads and the one that I would like to copy for him or her.
Brian:
Theyre excited when they see their own name in lights, so to speak.
Martys still a master at that.
Joe:
Yeah. Now youve actually gone from, of course, the way that anyone
grows a business with direct mail is you take the best sales promotions, the
best sales pitches and you put it into copy and you put it into the form of
a sales letter, and now you guys have a sales force of probably 50-million
or more a year of sales promotions put into an envelope and mailed.
Youre a massive direct mailer.
Id like to have you talk about now going into from being selling
advertising to becoming a direct marketer, and all of what youve done in
the process. Maybe talk about Mel Martin, your copywriter, and how you
guys developed the technique of fascinations for direct mail and the things
that youre really famous for with your promotions. If we could talk about
that a little.
Marty:
One of the categories that I called on early on, after I left Yellow Pages,
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...the sizzle
was so
important
to get the
reader!s
attention...

was mail order people. So I lived with those people; I learned from them
every day, something about copy, about products, about concepts. And
along the way, one of the best, most inspiring people was Mel Martin.
At one time, he worked for New York Times Books, and he created
an incredible situation, and he convinced top management that they should
take some of their empty space and devote it to their book division. And
he created unbelievably good ads.
His ads were so good and so entertaining that it was better than the
newspaper. But they stopped that free exchange for him pretty quickly,
because other book publishers who were important to the Times objected
and didnt think it was fair for the Times to take advantage that way. Well,
Mel and I kept in touch through his lifetime. He wrote a package for us,
which was very important. What not to eat on an airplane. He learned
this from seeing the advertising created by Ralph and Shurshana of
Innsburg. And Ralph and Shurshana are friends of mine. Fascinating
people. And they did probably the first fascination advertising.
Mel sort of took it apart, figured out how they did it, and then he
did it for the rest of his life magnificently, finding the oddity.
Joe:
How would you describe fascinations in terms of what is the purpose of

writing that type of copy? What is it that youre trying to do to the reader?
Marty:
Well, I think its to grab their attention. If any of you buy my product,
youll find out the answer.
Brian:
I think, also, theres been an evolution in the fascination approach as well.

And I think that there was the great Gene Schwartz, who was another of
the great copywriters who, in the same era, would go through a book that
you and I and Marty would probably think is pretty boring and be able to
come up with the tidbit that, in some respects, its always the sizzle being
better than the steak. The steaks still not that bad. Were not selling bad
meat, but that the sizzle was so important to get the readers attention.
Gene had this knack of being able to go through these big books
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Everything!s
important:
the copy,
the art,
the list... just
knowing how
to mail is
very
important...

and just call this stuff out, which Mel did, which Ralph Ginsburg did. And
its an amazing technique. And I think whats happened today, in todays
direct mail, is that the consumer has gotten a little bit tougher in terms of
wanting to be shown something a little bit more. And I will say that, over
time, theres a lot more direct mail out there that Ill say gives away a
little bit more of the steak in the direct mail campaign, so you see
fascinations.
To use an easy example, Here are the 10 things you need to know
to prevent a heart attack. You give 5 of them in the direct mail copy. To
get the other 5, you have to get the book that were selling, or the
subscription. But the idea that theres actually real steak in the direct mail
promotions these days, I think, has been an evolution over time. Im not
saying in the early days that there wasnt. Im sure Marty could find
examples of situations where they gave away some steak back then too.
But I think the consumer has gotten a little bit tougher and a little
bit more discerning. I dont know if you agree with that, Marty, but thats
what Ive seen over the last bunch of years, anyway. I mean a much more
demanding consumer. But the techniques still work. The idea of
fascinations is still such an incredibly-powerful technique.
Marty:
Right. Im finding that.
Joe:
My whole business is built around compelling sales copy and emotional

copy, and using copywriters and writing in a way that causes people to
desire what it is that I sell and back it up with a sense of urgency, social
proof, powerful headlines, calls to action, all of that stuff. What
suggestions or tips can you, Marty and Brian, give to the listeners on
maybe some fundamentals, things that youve learned about having
success with direct marketing, that people should really know? Like the
power of copy or anything.
Marty:
Well, copy is very important. Everythings important: the copy, the art, the
list. Just knowing how to mail is very important. Understanding how the
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It doesn!t
matter
how good
your
newsletters
or your
books are
if nobody
buys them.

post office works. We spent a lot of money for copywriters. Some of our
copywriters have been paid over $l-million a year by us.
Joe:
Wow!
Marty:
And I love paying them that much, because that means theyre doing a hell
of a job. But we might pay, we have paid as much as $100,000 to the right
copywriter, to write on a particular project.
Joe:
Id like to repeat what you just said there, Marty, because I think its
crucial. You said that some of your copywriters youve paid over $1
million and youre happy to pay them that
Marty:
Right
Joe:
I think that says so much about your ability to have grown your company
and developed this, which has reached millions and millions of consumers
that youve reached and youve helped through your publications, which
comes from the fact that it doesnt matter how good your newsletters or
your books are if nobody buys them and gives you money for them.
Youve not only developed awesome products and publications, but
youve also done a phenomenal job of selling them using powerful copy.
Youre willing to invest money into copywriters and people to
write that powerful copy to make that happen. My belief is that copy is the
oxygen that makes your sales letters work and makes your campaigns
work. And I cant tell you how many hundreds, if not thousands, of
people that Ive come into contact with that have the exact opposite
attitude of you. They try to be cheap with their copywriters. They dont
understand the value of it.
What was it that flipped the switch for you, that allowed you to see
that man, powerful copy is whats going to allow me to take a campaign
and grow it? How do you get that mindset?
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...if the
results are
there,
you!d be
silly not
to pay it.
Marty:

Well, a lot of that was by Dick Benson, who found a way to get a great
copywriter to work for nothing, as long as he got paid a nickel an order.
Essentially, he was getting a royalty, the copywriter. Dick Benson got this
Henry Callen to work on a royalty basis, and Henry, whose business at the
time was slow, said, That sounds good. And he made millions every year
on that royalty concept. And then that rolled down into the rest of the
world.
They heard about it. And the tougher copywriters insisted on
royalties. So it was easy to see that it was worth it; he paid more, but he
got more.
Brian:
I think in the early days of the royalty copywriters, too, as Marty said, you
wouldnt even have to pay them upfront. They were willing to put their
money where their mouth was, as we were. So we were in it together.
I think as time has gone on, the best copywriters, that top of the
pyramid is still not as large as we would like it to be. And a lot of those
guys and gals get an upfront fee in addition to royalties these days. But
again, going back to what Marty said, if the results are there youd be silly
not to pay it.
The other side of that, and I think you were kind of hinting at this
too, Joe, and I think its an important concept, not just about copywriters
and royalties, but just how you run a business. Youve got to run a
business with incredible integrity. Thats what Marty started the company
on. Theres no one with more integrity than Marty and what hes instilled
in all of us, And to that end, for example, if we made a deal with a
copywriter that was so much in our favor that it was unfair, were the kind
of company that would actually instead of saying, This is a windfall for
us, screw the copywriter, if its someone that we have a great relationship
with, we might go back to them and pay them a bonus or come up with a
new structure or do something retroactive,
And, of course, we expect the other to go the other way, too. When
we make a deal with somebody and the deal doesnt go the way we
thought, and we end up losing our shirt when we shouldnt have, we hope
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...being
cut-throat
just
doesn!t
seem to
work in
direct
marketing.

that people will have that same level of integrity to make a fair deal. And
the whole idea is fairness. Frankly, Ive been more disappointed. As you
said, most of the people that you meet in your work are pennywise and
pound-foolish when it comes to copywriters. I think a lot of people are
pennywise and pound-foolish in terms of the integrity of their business and
how they run it.
You only go around once. I dont understand that kind of
mentality, especially in a business like direct marketing, where everything
is shared. Were all using the same mailing list, were all using the same
copywriters, were using a lot of the same approaches. Theres so much
thats being shared to begin with, to start being cut-throat in the way that
most people have been cutthroat over the years in business just doesnt
seem to work in direct marketing.
Marty taught me a lesson very early on. My first 10 years, I spent
mostly in the list business and made my name in the list industry first,
before doing more direct marketing stuff on the whole with Marty. And I
remember Marty telling me early on that when I was selling mailing lists,
that selling lists is not an or, its an and. And what he meant by that is that
if my list works and your list works for a particular mailer, both lists are
going to be in the mail plan.
Its not a choice. If they both work, theyre both going to get
mailed. And just that spirit of camaraderie that direct marketing entails, its
more an and business than an or business kind of permeates everything
weve done since. Its how I run my business life now, and Im no longer
just a list guy. But thats, I think, the roots of where I came from. It really
goes back to some of those early lessons that Marty gave me, about and
versus or.
Joe:
Thats powerful stuff. Thats great thinking on that. Not that the listener
doesnt already know this, I want to reiterate it. How many letters do you
guys mail a year, currently, on average?
Brian:
Our mail quantities have been as high as 120, l30 million pieces a year.
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The
control is
your
enemy.

And thats just not letters; that could be different formats. What we call
magalogs, some of the stuff is number 10 packages, number 10 envelopes.
Right now, with the cost of postage and the ability to segment in
terms of database marketing, we actually can mail a lot less at a higher
profit. So I dont want people to be a slave to a number. Copywriters are,
if theyre getting paid a royalty. They want to hear that were going to
mail... I hope youre going to mail 10-million pieces instead of 5.
But I can make the case that we have mailings that, at 5 million
pieces, were a lot happier mailing 5 million than 10 million if at 10
million we dont get our return on investment that we really want.
So I dont want the listeners to think that we run around and brag
about how many names we mail. But we are a big mailer. On any given
year, its going to be somewhere between 50 and 100 million pieces,
depending on whats hot, which products are doing well, which new
products we get a new control.
And, again, we have one creative director who once gave me an
expression that I thought was one of the best, which is The control is your
enemy. I think that beating the control, if youre not hell-bent on doing
that every minute of every day, then you really are not cut out for direct
marketing.
Marty, whats the expression, long live the king? The king is dead,
long live the king. So we get a new control, we get 100% list in a response,
and the first thing we think about is, Okay, who are we going to hire to
beat that control now? Now, were going to rollout with that control and
make a lot of money and do very well, but were going to also be totally
aggressive in wanting to beat that.
Marty:
I think we have to explain what a control is.
Brian:
A control would be the existing package, the best package. Theres

another expression that Dick Benson taught us. He said, The best
package is the best package. So whatever your control package is means
that thats the package that youre trying to beat. Its the one thats the
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This is
the best
thing we
ever saw.
Now how
are we
going to
beat it?

current winner. Youre always trying to beat the control. Whatever your
best package is, you probably can beat it. You just have to figure out what
changes you have to make, whatever that item is.
The other beauty of direct marketing is that little things mean a lot.
A few changes of words on an order card makes all the difference in the
world. Sometimes a color on an envelope can make all the difference in
the world. You always want to do this.
This always fascinated me: there was one award that was given in
direct marketing. I believe it was called the Axel Anderson award. It was
an award that was given to a control that was able to stay the control for
more than 5 years. And I remember writing a letter to that publication that
was giving away that award, and I called it the Ironic Award. I said, It
seems to me that if you have the same control package for 5 years, as
opposed to being proud of yourself for having such a good control
package, I maintain that you probably werent testing enough.
Joe:
Yeah.
Brian:
So I think in that respect, the king is dead, long live the king. If you dont
keep on trying to beat the control, again, in direct marketing, thats what
makes my life interesting, makes Martys life interesting. How are you
going to beat this? This is the best thing we ever saw. Now, how are we
going to beat it?
Joe:
That actually is fantastic wisdom for everyone of the listeners. I have

talked a lot about controls, and most of the people listening have it. Im
glad Marty asked you to define that. Everyone out there listening, if
youve got a particular Yellow Page ad, a particular postcard, a newspaper
ad, all of those could be looked at as a control. Its like what is it doing
now and can you beat it? Can you beat the results, which goes back to why
you absolutely have to track your numbers. You have to know what your
cost per lead is, your cost per sale, and all of those things in order to beat
the control.
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I!m going
to take
that,
Brian,
and put
that on a
sign on
the wall...

The control is your enemy is something that is so good, Im

going to actually take that, Brian, and put that on a sign on the wall. It is
great advice. I want to say that for any of the listeners out there, you should
subscribe to all of Boardrooms newsletters, all of their publications, just
to be on their list. Its a great marketing education in and of itself, just
seeing how they market. And Id encourage everybody to do that.
Brian:
One thing they can do immediately, just so you know, we havent really
talked about the internet and e-mail, while we think that its a very good
distribution channel and a very good medium, to think that its the be-all,
end-all, I think, is a mistake that some people have made.
On the other hand, I think you have to pay very, very close
attention to it and I would encourage everybody and every one of your
listeners, if they go to our web site, www.Boardroom.com or
www.BottomLineSecrets.com, I think you end up in the same place on
either of those URLs. There are two e-letters that we offer, both free. One
is sort of a general consumer e-letter called Bottom Line Secrets. And once
a week, theyll get an e-letter from us with 6 or 7 links to different articles
on different topics. And then we also have something called Daily Health
News. Daily, in Connecticut, is 3 days a week. But anyway, its a 3-daya-week newsletter that, again, its just on the health category, but theyll
get free information.
We do embed ads, and thats the secret to keeping those afloat and
why theyre successful. But again, were giving away very valuable
editorial information for free. So while I encourage all of your listeners
and customers to subscribe to our paid newsletters, there are 2 free
e-letters that I encourage them to sign up for, as well.
Joe:
Awesome. Awesome. Same here. I encourage them to do everything they

can, to get a hold of everything.
Marty:
I have a couple of ideas for the carpet cleaners.
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Steal
smart...

Joe:
Alright.
Marty:
I have a couple of special ideas for your listeners that tie into my Yellow
Page experience. One is that they go to the library, wherever theres a huge
collection of Yellow Pages or see if the telephone company will let you sit
down with all the Yellow Pages from throughout the country, and then
look at the ads in your category throughout the country. See which ones
you like and copy them.
Brian:
Thats awesome advice. Thats amazing advice, Joe, that Marty just gave.
Marty:
Absolutely, versus letting the Yellow Page ads just basically make the ad
up for you, and just take pieces of this ad and that ad and throw them all
together. Absolutely.
Brian:
Theres an expression that one of the great newsletters in our trade, in the
direct mail business, it used to be called Whos Mailing What by a guy by
the name of Denny Hatch. And now its called Inside Direct Mail. But its
the same basic newsletter. Its a wonderful newsletter that basically tracks
everything thats in the mail at any particular time. I believe it was
Dorothy Cur, whos a good friend of Martys and mine, whos been in the
circulation business for a long time. And I think she gets credit with the
phrase steal smart. I remember that it was actually a lead article in the
Whos Mailing What newsletter very early on, in the history of that
newsletter. And the whole newsletter was launched on the concept of
stealing smart. You look at whats working, you look at whats out there.
Somebody has spent a lot of money, time, ingenuity to come up with the
ideas. You dont have to rip them off word- for-word, but you certainly are
going to get tremendous ideas.
And the beauty of what Marty just said, I think, also is that these
Yellow Pages are all regional. Its a small company in a small city, and
youre going to be in a completely different part of the country. Absolutely,
steal smart. What an amazing idea. If I was a carpet cleaner, Id be at the
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Track
each ad
with a
different
phone
number.

library now.
Joe:
Exactly.
Brian:
Thank you, Marty.
Marty:
I have another idea for Yellow Page advertisers.
Brian:
For Yellow Page or for carpet cleaners?
Marty:
Well, its for carpet cleaners and Yellow Pages. When youre interested in
buying a bigger ad or putting a big ad in another neighboring directory, get
another telephone number and use it in the new ad, so you can get a real
sense of whats happening.
Joe:
So you can track?
Brian:
Yeah, track each ad with a different phone number. Thats what TV direct
response does. Is that something that you recommend to your folks, Joe?
Joe:
TV, you mean?
Brian:
Just in general, to be able to track responses by specific source, which is

very important.
Joe:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Knowing your numbers is everything. And what, Marty,
you just said, if someone has 2 or 3 different ads and they all have the same
phone number when someone calls in, even if theyre tracking saying, I
heard about you from the Yellow Pages, whats to say theyre going to
know which Yellow Pages?
So no, its absolutely fantastic advice. And that would apply to any
replication of media. If youre running 2 different newspaper ads, 2
different phone numbers. Youve got to know your numbers. I read in one
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You!ve
got to
know
what ads
are
attracting
what
people.

of your articles that was written about you, that the future of marketing is
database. And youve got to know what list these are corning from.
Youve got to know what ads are attracting what people. And thats
what has allowed you to mail less letters but be more profitable, because
you have such a deep understanding of whos responding to what it is that
youre promoting. So absolutely.
Marty:
It took me a long time to understand databases, or database marketing.

Actually, its interesting. Dick Benson wrote a wonderful book on direct
marketing. A few years later, he redid it and he asked me to write the
foreword to it. So I had to read the book again, which was no pain.
After I finished getting started on the foreword, I realized he
didnt say anything in there about database marketing. It turns out he never
could redo the book because the world had changed and had become a
very important part of the new direct mail world.
Joe:
What I would like to do, because weve only got a few minutes left...
Marty:
I thought we were going to stay on through the weekend.
Joe:
You know, let me get a whole slew of CDs, Marty. We could actually do
that. You know, it would be worth it to me. Id get a heck of an education
and wed getting a lot of...
Brian:
And every hour, wed get the clocks going off, too.
Joe:
Absolutely. It would almost be like a marathon here. We could be in the

Guinness Book of World Records. Theres a lot of things Id love to ask
you, but weve only got a limited amount of time. Ive been to one of your
four season dinners that you do. What is the purpose of those things? I
think theyre really cool.
And although its not a huge thing, I think its worth mentioning.
You do these dinners at Four Seasons with experts and stuff. Whats that
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Just
listening
to people
who know
what
they!re
talking
about is
fabulous.

all about?
Marty:
It started very selfishly. I was at several dinners with intelligent people

around the table, which is much different than how I grew up. And I had
such a good time at those dinners, that people stopped inviting me. So I
figured as an entrepreneur, Ill try it. So I set up my own. I had trouble with
my first one. I sent out some invitations and everyone did not
immediately respond positively. So I sat back, planning the second one
and said, What do I do now?
I realized I was in the direct mail business, so I sent out twice as
many invitations and got a full table very easily. Then we had a few left
over, so I set up another dinner. Its the best way to spend an evening. I had
an apartment in New York to do this entertaining, and I found that the
dinners were more fun than going to the movies and the ballet or shows.
Just listening to people who know what theyre talking about is fabulous.
Joe:
I agree.
Brian:
You know, just a quickie, on the format that its amazing. I think theres so
much in the dinners, that go into the planning of them, that Martys very
precise about how the table gets set up and who sits with who. We get
everybodys bio in advance and we want to put people who would either
have a lot in common or we think they can have a lot in common once they
start talking to each other based on something in their backgrounds.
In addition, the way the format works is that after we introduce
everybody whos at the dinner, we spend time, everybody talks to their
neighbors, because weve already set the table up in a way that the people
are conversing about various topics. And then after the main course, Marty
sets it up so theres one conversation for the whole table, and each person,
you tune into each person and their expertise.
As Benson says, these are people that know everything about a lot.
So as Marty said, you cant get more out of an evening than when youre
listening to the experts talking about what theyre expert in. Everybody
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...that!s
really
what life
should be
all about.

likes to talk about what their passion is.

And the fact that we have the newsletters that we have and we have
the experts network that we have, its just gotten better and better as the
years go on because the network gets bigger, the experts get better. The
experience of everybody is increasing, of course, because time marches
on.
We always say, at the end of each dinner, This was the best
dinner ever. We hate to tell you, but the next ones going to be the best
dinner ever, and the next ones going to be the best dinner ever. So its a
phenomenal experience. Ive had the privilege of co-hosting them with
Marty now for the last few years. Its just been, again, an amazing
experience to have that contact with these amazing, amazing people. And
it is better than going to the movies or going to the show, or going to a
football game or anything like that.
Joe:
Yeah. I think that just the whole fact that getting together with groups of
very smart people and talking about very interesting things, thats really
what life should be all about. So many people squander their time. I think
youre not a huge, big sports fan, Marty, but I think so much television and
things that people spend their time with is a giant waste of time. And I
think youre just a company and an individual and a person that has
really learned how to find the essence of things and really leverage that.
Brian:
I dont want Marty to be angry with me on this one, but Ive been pushing
really hard that his autobiography is a book that needs to be written. Just
the case histories - and we havent even touched on that many today,
because youre not going to do that in an hour or 2-hour interview.
But the lessons in life I guess youre going to ask something
about the art collection the lessons in life that hes learned, I said all he
has to do is have the right editor and all he has to do is keep talking, and
the book is going to write itself. As far as just the issues of integrity in
business and the issues of so many people are writing about ethics these
days and writing about some of the things that people talk the talk but they
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dont walk the walk, and Martys been doing that for 30 years. Ive been
with him for 22 of them. 35 years and Ive been with him for 22 of them.
And I can tell you, for a fact, that this is a book thats going to get written.
I thank you for the inspiration to at least let me put that out there
and let your listeners know that were going to get even more of this on
paper.
Joe:
You know what? Before we even give Marty a chance to respond, I would
second everything that you just said and I would certainly encourage that.
Ive spent a lot of time. Ive known Marty now for several years, done
dinners with him, had lunch with him before. Hes given me a tour of the
place. Ive sent him some bizarre artwork and stuff in the past. And hes
also sent me some really cool things. Hes sent me a Piranha and all kinds
of neat stuff.
Last week, I read all of these articles; when you were Direct
Marketer of the Year, when youve been in Direct Magazine, the write-up
in Forbes, numerous articles. I watched the TV story that was done on you
and all of this stuff, and its fascinating. I had lunch last week, I spent 6
hours with Vic Conant over at Nightingale-Conant, which is an aside. He
actually said he did business with you in the list business.
Brian:
Oh, yeah. I know Vic. I dont know if Martys met Vic. Marty knew Earl
Nightingale, I think.
Joe:
Did you know Earl, Marty?
Marty:
No.
Brian:
Oh, you never met him, Marty? Okay. You know Vic Conant, Jr.
Joe:
Yes, exactly.
Brian:
We used to do a lot of business with Nightingale-Conant. Yes, I know Vic.
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Joe:

I had just gotten done reading all of these articles on Marty, and I brought
the folder of all of these articles. And I gave them to Vic and I said, Vic,
have someone make copies of these articles for you. Youve got to read
this stuff. This guy is fascinating, all of the things that hes done.
If you could see the articles that I have, theyre all highlighted. And
Ive got just pages of notes. Not things just preparation for this interview,
but just things that Ive learned and insights that Ive picked up. So I
would highly encourage you, Marty, to do a biography of yourself or have
it done. I think its fascinating.
Brian:
I have a title for the book, too, Joe.
Joe:
What is it?
Brian:
Its called Mickey From Newark. And the reason why I say that is all of
Martys friends, hes still very much in touch with those of his friends that
are still around from high school. He grew up in Newark, New Jersey, very
humbly, was not wealthy. Grew up as a very, very hard worker in Newark,
New Jersey. I would say all roads lead to Newark because everywhere we
go it seems like were always meeting somebody that Marty went to high
school with in Newark.
And all of his old friends still call him Mickey. Ive bought him
some Mickey Mouse shirts as a joke, but I could never call Marty
Mickey. Hes always been Marty to me.
But theres this side, the idea of Mickey from Newark. Hell tell
you that hes just this average guy that just put his priorities in the right
place and was focused on a vision and worked really hard and got to where
he was. But it is much bigger than that. But the fact that it started as
Mickey in Newark and the fact that he was a track star and he wasnt the
fastest guy but he was as good as anybody else on the track team, is sort
of indicative of everything hes done in his life since.
So I think Ive got the title, I think Ive just got to get the author,
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I love
the
Spiderman
toilet
seat...

and Ive got to get Marty to say yes. And I really appreciate you, Joe,
backing me up here. Because hes been telling me that Im wrong.
Marty:
Ill only say yes if he tells me where he got his fabulous toilet seat that he
sent me.
Brian:
The Spiderman?
Joe:
The Spiderman.
Brian:
I love the Spiderman toilet seat.
Joe:
I got it at an art gallery called Art One, in Scottsdale, which is the neatest
little art gallery because the money that this gentleman raises, the proceeds
go to help student artists and teenage artists and stuff. And the art is
fantastic. The coolest thing, which is kind of interesting, when I went to
this place I was referred by a friend whos a medical doctor that has this
bizarre art collection. Im into some pretty weird art. And I go into this
place and mention that this person referred me, my friend Juan. His name
is Juan Levy, hes a doctor. And the guy said, Anything that you see in
the gallery, if you like it, go ahead and take it home. And if you like it, pay
me for it. And if you dont, just bring it back within a week.
So I said, Okay. So this is like trial art? Hes like, Yeah. I go,
Do you do this with everyone? He goes, Yeah. He goes, 80% of my
business is repeat clients. So I walked out of there that day with about
$1,200 worth of stuff. The guy didnt even ask me for a license or
anything. All he wanted was my phone number. And Im like, Do you
have people rip you off? Hes like, No, never had it happen. He goes,
Its all on the honor system.
I ended up buying the stuff from this guy. But the mere fact hes
like, Go and hang it on your wall, put the sculptures on your floor, do
whatever you want. If it works, if it fits, keep it. If it doesnt, bring it
back. And I thought that was one of the most awesome marketing
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techniques for selling art.

Brian:
I think thats how Marty started Bottom Line Personal. One of his
consultants, Dave Floren, said, This thing is so good, just give it away.
And as soon as it gets in their hands, theyre not going to be able to live
without it. So its the same concept. Theres a real marketing lesson here.
Marty:
Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Id like to know if you tried out this toilet seat?
Joe:
No. That toilet seat has never been tried. Its one of a kind. Another one
like it does not exist.
Brian:
Im staring at it right now. Its right behind Marty, on the wall, behind him
on his desk.
Joe:
You know what? Do me a favor, Brian, if you could. Because now that
weve done this interview and this is actually going out to the world,
people are going to be asking, What on earth are you talking about? And
that really is one of a kind. It was a custom-made toilet seat with artwork
from Spiderman that was put on the toilet seat, lacquered. Its useable.
Brian:
Its beautiful. Im looking at it.
Joe:
Yeah, take a picture. And that was done before the movie came out and
everything. So Ive got to imagine thats a huge collectors item now,
which is very cool.
Brian:
Right. Marty keeps a camera by his desk, so Ill make sure. Hes got to
take a picture of it and send it to you.
Joe:
And I knew that that would totally fit Marty, too. Which is why, when I
saw it...
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Brian:
Its right behind him. Its in a very prominent spot on the wall. Does this
art place still exist?
Joe:
Yes. Its called Art One, and its in Scottsdale, Arizona.
Brian:
Now, when I come for a boot camp, youre going to take me there.
Joe:
Yes. The guy that owns it, his name is Craig Foote. Hes a very cool guy
and its a really interesting place.
Brian:
Its on my list of places to visit when I come to a boot camp.
Joe:
I will absolutely take you there. So Marty, what are your thoughts on doing
the book? Does this look like something that youd be willing to have
Brian oversee and put together?
Marty:
I dont know. Its a lot of work.
Brian:
I dont expect to do the work, because Ive got enough to do. I keep myself
busy and Marty keeps me busy. I think the book writes itself, frankly. You
need the right person, someone whos really expert in doing interviews. I
bet you could write it, Joe. Your interview techniques are so good. But
thats the kind of person that you need. Because then, I think the book
writes itself. And it really becomes a book about lessons in life more than
it does about Martys life.
Joe:
And I would be more than happy to do that. I would love to do that. And
also, my listeners, I would imagine, would absolutely love to get all of
Martys insights and the things that you guys have learned.
Brian:
Ill keep working on him.
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So check
your
premise.
That!s a
very
important
line...

Joe:
Yeah, think about it, let it percolate. If it sounds like something, let me
know. And to all my listeners, if that is something thats interesting to you,
just shoot us an e-mail or a fax and let us know and I will use that as
ammunition to try to convince Marty.
Brian:
You get an autographed picture of Martys toilet seat.
Joe:
Perfect. Perfect. Thats great. Lets talk about your art collection, Marty.
Its not just about art. You actually find meaning and messages in your art,
and it all has a special meaning and purpose to you. Marty: Theres a great
lesson for everybody. Joe: Yeah, share that. What is the lesson?
Marty:
Well, basically, I was out with Gene Schwartz and his wife, who are
fabulous collectors. And they were in a big gallery, looking at frontline art.
And I wondered over into the corner and I saw a funny, crumpled-up
photograph and it had 2 words on it. It said, Order, and underneath it, it
had confusion. And I got excited about that, because thats what I deal
with, with my publications. I bring order out of confusion.
It just happens that the artwork was done by the Starn twins, and
they make orderly things confusing. Essentially, they take photographs,
cut them up. My particular one was all crumpled up. I asked what the price
was and they told me $500, and I had trouble believing that. I bought one
picture a few years ago for $100 and it was perfect, no bends, no cuts, no
crumples.
So I figured I had found the secret of life, and I just had to tell
people about it. So I started a collection to show confusion and order. As
I looked for that theme, I discovered other themes like one of my early
things was a very attractive woman with beautiful breasts, sitting on her
haunches, nursing her baby. But the baby wasnt the baby, it was the fetus.
And the woman with the beautiful breasts wasnt a woman, she was a
hermaphrodite. And if you look closely, you can see substantial male
genitals too.
So check your premise. Thats a very important line. That was a
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...I have
to trust
them not
to let me
down.

key line, of course, of Atlas Shrugged.

Joe:
Absolutely.
Marty:
And I went along and found other things, which taught lessons.
Brian:
In fact, Marty was given an award by the Direct Marketing Association of

Washington, a visionary award some years ago, and actually created, at
that point, a slide presentation. Which, I guess, Marty, we should get into
PowerPoint. Weve not really pulled it out of the archives.
But basically, it was selected pieces from his art collection and,
each one, what the lesson in life was. And then I think you were going to
do a book on that, but I dont think we ever got around to that. But I think
that can be incorporated into the autobiography as well.
Joe:
Yes, of course. You could have all the pictures, all the different artwork.
Brian:
Sure.
Joe:
Thats a great idea. Seriously, youve got one heck of a story here. It could
be a visual story, it could incorporate all kinds of things. What about the
trapeze picture? Whats the meaning behind that?
Brian:
Thats a great photo by a great photographer. And it shows these artists

swinging high up in the air, and teaches the lesson of teamwork. When one
of the Flying Wolendas goes off, the other will have to catch them. And
thats so in life. I sit down with somebody and we start work on a project,
and I have to trust them not to let me down. Thats a great, powerful
lesson.
I guess a spin-off of that one is the Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers.
You have a couple things like that, a similar theme.
Joe:
Im going to actually segue that into a question that I kind of wanted to
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..."the Art
of Not
Arguing
to Get
Your
Way.#

ask. One of your books that you recommend, that Ive read in your articles
and stuff, is How To Win Friends And Influence People, by Dale Carnegie.
Theres another book that I actually saw recently, which is called How To
Lose Friends And Alienate People, which I thought was interesting.
You said that Carnegie taught you the art of not arguing to get your
way. What have you learned about communicating with people? Because
youre a phenomenal communicator. Thats what your publications do,
thats what your marketing does. And, of course, that had to be crucial in
you building a team of people to support you in your mission and what it
is that youre doing. Brian, youve been working with Marty for how
many years now?
Brian:
22 years.
Joe:
22 years. Theres obviously massive amounts of communication. So what

is the art of not arguing to get your way?
Marty:
One of them is to be a black belt, and Im a black belt.
Brian:
He doesnt scare me with that black belt thing.
Marty:
I used to, though.
Brian:
No, you never did. Its bigger than your black belt.
Joe:
Is that how you met Ken Glickman, by the way?
Marty:
Yes.
Joe:
Ken is an awesome guy. I think Kens actual title at Boardroom is

Consumer Editor at Large?
Marty:
Correct.
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So if
I won,
I felt
bad...
and if
I lost,
I felt
bad.

Joe:
At large. I guess that means hes never around?
Brian:
Hes not a full-time employee, but he has done a lot of appearances for us
and kind of represents us in some media and things like that. He also did
the I-Power seminars years ago, so I guess thats how you met him.
Joe:
Yeah. And Ken, I will have to say, just given the chance to say, Ken is one
of the most phenomenal people that youd ever meet. I love the guy. Hes
a fantastic guy, and has always done such a wonderful job of representing
your company. The guys awesome. Hes spoken at some of my boot
camps.
But anyway, going back to the question of not arguing to get your
way, explain that if you could.
Marty:
Its very simple. I realized that every time I was in an argument, I lost. If
I won an argument, you felt bad. And that didnt portend well for the
future. If I lost an argument, I felt bad. So if I won, I felt bad and if I lost,
I felt bad.
Joe:
Going back to the book idea, Brian, you should have every one of his
friends write a chapter on him.
Brian:
Yeah, right.
Joe:
Were really kind of cornering him into this deal here.
Brian:
Its going to happen. I just have to make sure I line it up and make it easy
for him to order.
Joe:
Of course.
Brian:
There is no no. Im going to make it easy for him to say yes.
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If
no one
else
changes
the world,
we!d
better
try.

Joe:
Yeah, exactly.
Brian:
Youre helping me, so I appreciate that, Joe.
Joe:
Good. Marty, a couple more questions and then well call it a wrap. What
lessons, life lessons, did you learn through karate, which I believe you
began at age 45 and you became a black belt at age 57. What did you
learn?
Marty:
I learned that you can do anything that you want, that the teacher tells you
to do. I learned I could do pushups. Pushups are a major toughener. So we
did it on hardwood floor, using knuckles, not the palms. If you can do
pushups on a hardwood floor, thats incredible. It really hurts.
Brian:
I think theres a phrase you have for it, Marty, which is - not the pushups
- that you can do anything you want to do if youre willing to work hard
and pay the price. And I think thats part of what your dedication to karate
was.
Marty:
I demonstrated it very simple.
Joe:
This will be the last thing Im going to ask you, and then well wrap up.
10 years ago, over 10 years ago, in 1994, you were voted Direct Marketer
of the Year by Target Marketing magazine. Which, by the way, at the time
I think Denny Hatch was the editor.
Brian:
Yes, youre absolutely correct.
Joe:
Ive interviewed Denny, by the way, and he thinks very, very highly of
Marty. His name came up quite a bit in my interview with Denny. And you
were quoted as saying, I want to help people live in an increasingly
hostile environment. If no one else changes the world, wed better try. And
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"I!m
going to
come up
with 20
ideas to
improve
my
business,
and
improve
my life.#

Im in a decent position to do that.

Not only, at the time, were you in a decent position to do that, I
think certainly through your publications and the millions of consumers
that youve reached and have then helped and guided and educated
through your books and through your publications, youve done that in a
huge way and youve influenced millions of people.
What are your famous words of wisdom, last words of wisdom you
would give to any entrepreneurs out there listening to this interview on
what they can do to just become better, bettering their best and just run
better businesses, be better people, and get the most out of what life can
give you?
Marty:
Well, as an entrepreneur, the best thing you can do is get your people into
an I-Power system. Or, as a homebody, you could sit with the family and
promise them a quarter or a dollar for every good idea they come up with
that makes their family function better. Thats great. The power is great.
The other thing is you could run your own I-Power meeting with
yourself. Sit down and say, Im going to come up with 20 ideas to
improve my business, improve my life. Some of its small. Go to sleep
earlier, get up earlier, keep...
Joe:
There the clocks go again. Brian, if you want to say anything while
Martys clocks go and probably ring his eardrums...
Brian:
No, no. I know its almost time.
Joe:
Well, what I want to say to the listeners is please give me your input on
this interview. Any further stuff that youd like to learn or hear about
Marty, please let me know. I dont know if youd ever be open to another
interview in the future, Marty. But certainly, if you are, then I will
certainly extend that offer. And I would be happy to help in any way, shape
or form with putting together any form of book or any documentation of
your wisdom and your insights.
Phone: (480) 858-0008
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46
GeniusNetwork.com
Interview Series

With you guys permission, if you dont mind if I share some of the
articles and stuff with my listeners, Im thinking I may put them up on
PDF on the GeniusNetwork.com website, so people can actually read
about Marty, if thats okay. And you can let me know which things I can
put up or which ones I cant. And Ill make that available to anyone
listening to this, so you can get a further understanding and knowledge of
Marty and what hes done. Certainly, theres so much more than just what
weve talked about here. But certainly, I appreciate you both taking the
time to do this interview with me and to share some of your knowledge
and some of your wisdom.
And Ill give you one more opportunity, either one of you, to say
any final things, and then Ill let you go.
Brian:
Marty should have the final word.
Marty:
I hope your listeners come up with lots of questions, so we can do this

again.
Joe:
Thank you. Thank you.
Brian:
And Marty, you are promising Joe a picture of the Spiderman toilet seat?
Marty:
Yes.
Brian:
Okay.
Joe:
Awesome. Thats great.
Brian:
Well do a PDF of that for your listeners, as well.
Marty:
That would be awesome. Brian, if you could give out the contact
information for all of our listeners, so if they would like to subscribe to any
of your newsletters, get any of your books, or just go to the website and
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Fax: (480) 858-0004
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GeniusNetwork.com
Interview Series
Eat your
competition
alive!
Brian:

subscribe to the free e-mails. If you can give out any contact information
for the listeners, that would be great.
Yeah. Going to our web site, www.Boardroom.com, or
www.BottomLineSecrets.com, as the train is going around. On that web
site, you can subscribe to anything. You can buy any of our books. I
encourage everybody, all of your listeners, to sign up for our 2 free
e-letters. One is Daily Health News, the other one Bottom Line Secrets. So
at least theyll be in contact with us.
And I think its not too dangerous to give out my e-mail address,
because if there are any specific things that I can make something happen,
for anybody whos a friend of Joes is a friend of ours. So
Bkurtz@Boardroom.com. Ill try to take care of any requests that I get
from anybody whos a friend of Joe Polishs.
Joe:
Awesome. Thank you. And Marty, again, thank you very much for taking
time to do this. Thank you, Brian. And to all my listeners, please give me
your feedback on this and anything regarding Boardroom, Marty, Brian,
that youd like me to follow-up with, questions. I certainly will do it.
So thanks a lot, guys. Have an absolutely wonderful day.
Phone: (480) 858-0008
Fax: (480) 858-0004
48
GeniusNetwork.com
Interview Series

GENIUS NETWORKTM HOT TIPS SHEET

Books are a great source of learning...always make sure you get something useful
that you can use in your business or everyday life with the books you read...even if
you dont read it cover to cover.
Always question everything...curiosity pays off.
Dont delegate, coordinate. Put people together to work through things as a team
effort. Coordinate the outcome or project to be completed.
Management by Agenda: give projects to people but meet with them regularly to
follow up on and ask more questions as it moves along.
A big secret in sales is that planning pays...so plan your day, your calls, schedule
everything.
Good copy (writing) is the oxygen that makes your sales letters work and makes
your campaigns work.
The control is your enemy! Always work to beat your control (the best package
youve got, the current winner). Whatever your best package is, you can probably
beat it.
Steal Smart: Look at whats working, look at whats out there. Adapt it for your
business.
The future of marketing is the database - knowing your target base and having an
understanding of whos responding to what it is youre promoting.
Bring order out of confusion. Make your marketing promotions simple for the
buyer.
Phone: (480) 858-0008
Fax: (480) 858-0004
!Question Everything and Be Curious" - M a r t y E d e l s t o n

B I G I D E A S / I N S I G H T S I gained from this interview:
IDEA
How can I leverage this idea to my benefit?
A C T I O N S I want to take based on these ideas:

ACTION/GOAL
Steps I can take right away to move on this?
Deadline: ______________
Deadline: ______________
Deadline: ______________
Recommended Resources:
Lateral Thinking by Edward De Bono
Bottom Line Personal Newsletter - www.Boardroom.com
Boardroom, Inc. 281 Tresser Blvd. 8th floor, Stamford, CT 06901-3246
Phone: (203) 973-5900 Fax: (203) 967-3086
Other Recommendeded GN Interviews with Joe Polish:
Ken Glickman, (of Boardroom, Inc.) I-Power: the Best Management System Ever!
Ken Glickman (Marketing Consultant) On Time Management (Part One & Two)
For more Genius NetworkTM Interviews by Joe Polish with experts
in the fields of business and personal success - visit www.GeniusNetwork.com.
Phone: (480) 858-0008
Fax: (480) 858-0004

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GeniusNetwork.

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

Joe Polishs Tempe, Arizona office headquarters for Piranha Marketing is

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

Hello, friends and clients! This is Joe Polish, President of Piranha

Tell me where youre at-right now. Im in Tempe, Arizona and were on

Were in Stanford, overlooking the Long Island Sound.

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

I think the fact that we continue to be very successful in a world of

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

most of the books on my shelf, I have not read cover-to-cover.

Yeah. Thats our great books, not the great books.

Absolutely. What you guys do is a service to millions of consumers. You

Ill give you one final quote on that, Joe.

Really? Now, you started Boardroom, Marty, in 1972. Correct?

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

And I imagine, Marty, you probably spend a lot of time reading.

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

This is for Marty

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

And its got to be very clear, because I read everything. If I dont

85? And your revenue is, of course, in the million-dollar-per-employee

Actually, we do close to $l00 million.

Phone: (480) 858-0008

Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

So youre doing something right in that department. When I was reading

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Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

delegation. Do you do that at all?

Oh, yeah. Thats one of the best things.

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Fax: (480) 858-0004

Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar Company

correspondence, or whether its items on a long agenda that the

Ive been eating very well. I will tell you that.