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WhydoesTNHstaysmuchbelowTNR?
ByRahulPSharmaon27December,200512:49pm
Recently,IpostedamessagetryingtocorelateDSPofMARKIIandMARKV...OnethingI
understoodfromthereplyisthatTNRistheequivalentofDSP...Itwasalsoalludedinthereply
aboutarecentpostingonrelationbetweenTNR,TNHetc...Iunderstoodfromthatreferencethat
TNRisthesetpointinpercentageandTNHisthespeedfeedbackinpercentage...Foraclosedloop
controlsystem,ifTNHislessthatTNR,itwilltrytocatchupwithTNR...Right??Nowinour
turbineIobservedthefollowingcase:
ModeofOperation:SpeedDroop
TNR:103.91%
TNH:99.78%
NHP:5060
GridFreq:49.56Hz
Thequestion:WhyistheTurbinenotcatchingupwithTNRthoughitisstillapprox.4%belowthe
setpoint?
IsitbecausetheGridfrequencyisgivingalesseroutputtotheMinValueGate..??Ifthat'sthecase
thenwhatisthatsignal..??MinValueGatehasonlyfiveinputs:Viz.Temploopoutput,speedloop
o/p,startupo/p,shutdowno/pandacc.loopo/p...Wheredoesthegridfreq.figureinhere..??
Regards
Rahul

Bymarkvguyon27December,20055:29pm
Wouldyouwantyourturbine/generatortoberunningat104%ofratedspeedwhenconnectedin
paralleltoothergeneratorsonanACelectricalgrid?(Remember:thefrequencyofanACelectrical
generator(rightlycalledanalternator)isequaltotheproductofthenumberofmagneticpolesof
thegeneratortimesthespeed(inRPM)oftherotor,dividedby120,or:f=(P*N)/120).)
HasyourMkIISpeedTronicequipped,GEdesign,heavydutygasturbinegeneratorbeen
operatingincorrectlyforthetwodecadesorsosinceitwasinstalled?
GridfrequencyisNOTaninputtotheMin.ValuegateitISaninputtothe"speedloopo/p"which
isaninputtotheMin.Valuegate.The4%erroryouarewitnessingistypicalofmostgenerator
primemovers(regardlessoftypeormanufacturer)operatingatratedload,andisoftenreferredtoas
"4%speedregulation."
ItisoneofthemanymixedblessingsoftheEnglishlanguage(particularlyaspracticedbythe
Americans)thattechnical"terms"areactuallybadsynonyms.Droopspeedcontrolisbutanother
exampleofthis(like"makeupvalve"and"letdownstation,"bothofwhichcanbeused
interchangeablytorefertoapressureregulator!).Whensomething"droops,"itcanbeconsideredto
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belimporsagging.MerriamWebster'sOnlineThesaurusdescribesthenoun"droop"as"...the
extenttowhichsomethinghangsordipsbelowastraightline..."(OnehastowonderwhatDroop
speedcontroliscalledintheFrenchlanguage.?.?.?)
DroopspeedcontrolisusedonalmostEVERYprimemoverandgeneratorsetproducedsince
electricitywasdiscoveredandmultipleACgenerators(rightlycalled'alternators')wereconnected
inparallel.ThereareprobablyasmanydifferentexplanationsofDroop(andIsochronous)speed
controlastherearemachinesrunningundercontrolofoneortheother.Oneofthisauthor's
favoritesis:"...Thedesignofthespeeddroopgovernorissuchthatthegovernoroperatesata
slowerspeedasengineloadincreases.Itisthroughthischaracteristicthatstabilityofthesystemis
achievedanddivisionofloadbetweenparalleledunitsismadepossible...."(Huh?)
WiththeUTMOSTsincerity,pleasestopandconsiderthisquestion:
WhyisitcalledDROOPspeedcontrol?
Droopspeedcontrolisstraightproportionalcontrolthereisnothinginproportionalcontrolwhich
willdrivetheactualvalueequaltobeequaltothesetpointiftheydiffer.Infact,manytimesin
proportionalcontrolifthegainofthecontrolloopisincreasedtodrivetheactualvaluetobenearly
equaltothesetpoint,thesystemwillbecomeunstable.Theoriginal"designers"ofDroopspeed
controlmadeuseofthefactthatonanACelectricalgridsomesinglemachinewassettoadjustthe
primemovertocontrolfrequencyverytightly,andintheprocesswouldcontrolthefrequency
(speed)ofallgeneratorsconnectedtothesamegrid(noACelectricalgeneratorconnectedin
parallelwithotherACelectricalgeneratorscanhaveahigher,orlower,frequencythananyother
generator:f=(P*N)/120).
Backinthedaysbeforepower(watts)couldbeconvertedintoanelectricalsignalandfedbacktoa
controlsystemaspartofacontrolloop,therewasonlyspeedfeedbackandspeedreference.Ever
seenapictureofaflyballgovernor,whichisoneoftheearliest"controlsystems"everinvented?
Everseenoneinoperation?Wheredidload(poweroutput)makeitbackintothatcontraption?It
didn't!Primemoverspeed,intheformofcentrifugalforce,actedagainstaspringthespeed
referencetocontroltheamountoffuel,water,steam,wind,etc.,admittedtotheprimemover.
So,byunderstandingthatthespeed(frequency)oftheprimemover/generatorwouldbecontrolled
bysome"external"meanswhenconnectedtoanACelectricalgrid,thedesignerscoulddevelopan
errorsignalbetweenaspeedreference("variable")andtheactualspeed("constant"),andusethat
errortocontroltheamountoffuel,steam,water,wind,etc.beingadmittedtotheprimemover.The
amountofenergyadmittedtotheprimemoverisproportionaltothedifference(error)betweenthe
speedreferenceandtheactualspeedandthatdifference(error)isELEMENTALandCRITICAL
totheoperationofthewholescheme.
Throughtheyears(decades)sincethefirstACelectricalgeneratorsandprimemovercontrol
systems,theconceptofIsochronousandDroopspeedcontrol(governormodes)wasmaintainedby
mosteveryprimemovercontrolsystemmanufacturerinexistence,includingGE,Woodward,
Siemens,andmany,manyothers."Ifitain'tbroke,don'tfixit!"
IfanyoneisindoubtabouttherelationshipbetweenTNR(DSP),TNH(NHP),andFSR(VCE),just
readtheCSP(ortheSpeedTronicelementary).WorkbackwardsfromFSR(VCE),orwork
forwardsfromTNH(NHP),orworkforwardsfromtheGOVERNORRAISE/LOWERswitchon
thegeneratorcontrolpanelorfromtheSPEED/LOADRAISEandLOWERtargetsonthe<I>or
GEMkVHMIitallleadstothesameplacewiththesameresult.IftheunitisrunninginDroop
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speedcontrol(governor)mode,theerrorbetweenthespeedsetpoint(reference)andtheactual
speedfeedbackisusedtoincreaseordecreasetheamountoffueladmittedtotheturbine.
WiththeexceptionofthoseGEheavydutycombustionturbineswith'ConstantSettableDroop',the
amountofloadplaysnopartinthecontroloftheunit.EventhoseunitswithConstantSettable
Droop(yetanotherpoorchoicefordescribingagovernormode)STILLusespeedreference,in
percent,comparedtoaloadsignal,convertedtopercentofspeed,tocontrolloadbetweennoload
andBaseLoad.(And,ConstantSettableDroopprimarilycameintowidespreadusesolelyasa
meansoflimitingloadswingsduringcombustionmodetransfersonDLNcombustorequipped
unitsitwasn'tbecauseofanyrealenlightenmentordesireto"modernize"GEheavydutygas
turbinecontrols!)
IfyourunitisoperatinginDroopspeedcontrolandthegridfrequency(i.e.,thefrequencyofthe
gridtowhichyourgeneratorisconnectedinparallelwith)islessthanitshouldbe,thenwhoeveris
incontrolofthegridfrequencyisn'tpayingattentiontotheamountofloadonthesystemandthe
amountofgenerationonthesystem,orwhateverisincontroloftheenergybeingadmittedtothe
Isochronousunitisn'toperatingproperlyortheIsochronousunitisn'tbeingoperatedproperly.
UseyourpreferredInternetsearchengineandlookup"droop+governor+mode"or
"droop+speed+control".Also,lookup"proportional+control"or"PID+control"sincethisisthe
underlyingconceptbehindDroopspeedcontrol.
So,whatword/terminFrenchisusedfor"droop"speedcontrol.?.?.?Andwhatisit'sEnglish
languagetranslationandmeaning???

ByRahulPSharmaon29December,20053:47pm
Wowwww..!!Amazingclarity...Moreamazingisthefactthattheinherentlimitationof
Proportionalcontrolisusedasanadvantage...Iamsure,mostpeople,whofailtounderstand
Droopcontrol,wouldgainalotfromyourreply...
Iwouldwanttoclarifymyunderstandingalittlefurther...
Youexplainedit'stheerrorbetweenTNRandTNHthatiscrucialtothepoweroftheturbine,and
hencetheloaddeliverance....SoiftheGridFreqis49ANDmyGeneratorisdeliveringthe
RATEDLoad(20MWinmycase)THENautomaticallyTNRwould"become"102%andTNH
wouldbe98%(cosTNHhastomatchtheGridFreq...)...Right??
Nowsay,Istartclickingthe"Lower"Target...SoTNRwillbegintoreducebutTNHwillbeheld
"constant"...IfTNRbecomesnow101%(makingtheerror=3%)thentheloadontheturbine
wouldhavereducedby5MW...Isthisright..??
Continuingtheprocesswillcuttheloadby25%foreachpercentdropinerror...Isthisright...??
Whatwillbetheconditionwhentheerrorisreducedto0%(IkeepclickingLowercontinuously
tilltheloaddropsto0MW)...IsittantamounttoarrivingatFSNLbyclicking"Lower"icon
continuously..??
Next,letmeaskyouplease,aboutthecasewhenGridFreqincreasesto,say51Hz.SoNHPwill
be5207...(102%)...DoesitmeanthatifmyTurbineisrunningatRatedLoad,TNRinthiscase
willautomaticallyriseto102+4=106%...???andtheloadwillvaryfrom0to20MWforaTNR
variationfrom102to106%...???
Lastquery,whatwillhappenifinsteadof"Lower"icon,the"Raise"iconwascontinuoslyclicked
atRatedLoadand4%error..??WilltheTNRincreasestillfurthercausingtheerrormarginto
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widenbeyond4%...???
Andah!!ExceptforakissandGoodbye,thereisnootherFrenchIamawareof...
ThanksandRegards
Rahul

Bymarkvguyon30December,20057:37pm
Yes,whenaturbinegeneratorisconnectedtothegrid,TNH(NHP)willbetheturbine's
equivalentofthegridfrequency.That'soneoftheactsofsynchronizingmakingthe"incoming"
generator'sfrequency(primemoverspeed)nearlyequaltoandinphasewiththatoftheelectrical
grid.Oncesynchronized,thefrequencyofthegenerator(andthespeedofadirectlyconnected
primemover)willbethesameastheelectricalgrid's(withtheexceptionofanIsochronousunit
whichisoperatingsomewherebetweenzeroandratedloadseebelow.)
Ingeneral,yourdescriptionofthe4%differentialbetweenturbinespeedreferenceandactual
turbinespeedistruewhenaturbinegeneratorbeingoperatedatratedoutput/loadifgrid
frequencyisaboveorbelow"normal."But,dependingonthestabilityofthegridfrequency(i.e.,
howfastitischangingandthemagnitudeoftheexcursions)theturbinespeedreferencewill
generallyberampedupordowntotrytomaintainthe4%differentialbutitwon'tjustbe
automaticallyadjusted(bystepchange)itwillberampedupordownandthisisassumingthe
unitisbeingoperatedinautomaticBaseLoadcontrol(CPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol).
Yes4%speeddroop/regulationmeansthatforeach1%differentialbetweentheturbinespeed
referenceandtheactualturbinespeed,achangeof25%ofratedloadwilloccur.
IftheunitisbeingoperatedinautomaticBaseLoadcontrolandisatBaseLoad(i.e.,onCPD
biasedexhausttemperaturecontrol)andtheSPEED/LOADLOWERtargetisclicked(orthe
GovernorswitchisheldtotheLOWERposition),theturbinespeedreferencewillberamped
downfromit'svalueandtheautomaticBaseLoadcontrolwillbecanceled.Clickingonthe
SPEED/LOADRAISEtarget(orholdingtheGovernorswitchintheRAISEposition)willcause
theturbinespeedreferencetobeincreasedfromit'spresentvalueandautomaticBaseLoad
controlwillbecanceled.
WhenanoperatorselectsBaseLoadaftersynchronizingaGEheavydutygasturbinegenerator
withaSpeedTronicturbinecontrolsystem,theSpeedTronicstartsrampingtheturbinespeed
referenceupataprogrammedrate.Astheerrorbetweentheturbinespeedreferenceandthe
actualturbinespeedincreases,thefuelflowratetotheturbinewillbeincreased.Inthecaseof
theMkV,FSRNwillbeincreasingastheerrorbetweentheturbinespeedreferenceandthe
actualturbinespeedincreases.(Andastheunitisloadedinthismanner,FSRTwillstart
decreasingastheunitbeginstoapproachratedoutput.)RememberthatFSRNandFSRTare
inputstotheMin.Value"gate"block.
WhenFSRNequalsFSRT,theunitissaidtobeatratedpoweroutputatBaseLoad.However,
iftherampingofTNRstoppedatthatpoint,theunitwouldbecontinuallyswitchingbetween
(Droop)SpeedControlandTemperatureControl.Undernormaloperatingconditionsonaunit
with4%speedregulation,TNRwillbeapproximately104%atthispoint(assumingthegridisat
ratedfrequency).
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AslongasBaseLoadisstillselectedandactive,theSpeedTroniccontinuestoramptheturbine
speedreferenceupbutloadwillNOTincrease.Thisisdonetoensurethat(Droop)Speed
Controlisnot"fighting"withCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol(inotherwords,toensure
thatFSRNandFSRTarenotequal)andthatfuelwillbeadjustedtomaintainCPDbiased
exhausttemperaturecontrolregardlessofambientconditions.ThisiswhytheRAISEindication
ismaintainedforashortperiodoftimeAFTERtheunitreaches/indicatesitisonTemperature
Control.TNRwillberampedupuntilapresetdifferentialbetweenFSRNandFSRTisreached.
AslongastheunitisonautomaticBaseLoadcontrol(CPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol),
theSpeedTronicwillautomaticallyadusttheturbinespeedreference(and,hence,FSRN)to
maintainthatpresetdifferentialbetweenFSRNandFSRTthat'swhytheRAISEandLOWER
indications"flash"whiletheunitisonCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol.
IfsomeonecontinuestoclickonSPEED/LOADRAISEwhentheunitisoperatingonCPD
biasedexhausttemperaturecontrol,TNR(and,hence,FSRN)willcontinuetoincreaseuntilit
reachestheHighSpeedStopsetpoint,whichisusually107%.Now,theunitloadwillNOT
increasebecausefuelisbeingcontrolledbytheCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol
reference,whichistheupperlimitoftheunit'spoweroutput.IfTNRisat107%andsomeone
initiatesaunitSTOPorstartsclickingonSPEED/LOADLOWER,loadWILLNOTstartto
decreaseuntilFSRNdropsbelowFSRTwhichcouldtakeseveralminutesdependingonthe
programmedramprates!
Now,ifsomeoneinitiatesaSTOPwhiletheunitisonautomaticBaseLoadcontrol(CPDbiased
exhausttemperaturecontrol)theSpeedTronicwillbeginloweringtheturbinespeedreference
(and,hence,FSRN).LoadwillNOTbegintodropUNTILFSRNisLESSTHANFSRTthisis
whywhensomeoneinitiatesaSTOPfromBaseLoadthatloaddoesn'timmediatelybegin
droppingtheturbinespeedreferencehastobedecreaseduntilFSRNislessthanFSRT.And,
FSRNwasbeingmaintainedatavaluethatwasslightlyhigherthanFSRTwhiletheunitwason
automatictemperaturecontroltoprevent(Droop)SpeedControlfrom"fighting"withCPD
biasedexhausttemperaturecontrolsoittakesashortperiodoftimeforFSRNtobelessthan
FSRT.(ThesamethinghappensifsomeonestartsclickingonLOWERwhiletheuniton
automaticBaseLoadcontrolTNRwillbedecreasedandloadWILLNOTbegintodropuntil
FSRNislessthanFSRT.)
Toansweryourlastquestion,ifsomeonekeepsclickingonSPEED/LOADLOWERuntilTNR
dropstothepointthatit'sequaltoTNH,thenloadshouldbeapproximately0MW.Ifone
continuestoclickonLOWER,TNRwilldropbelowTNH(becauseTNHmustbeequaltogrid
frequencywhenthegeneratorbreakerisclosed)andpowerwillbegintoflowintothegenerator
("motorizing")reversepowerflow.Thereisusuallyarelayonthegeneratorcontrolpanel
(devicenumber32)and/orsomesequencingintheSpeedTronicturbinecontrolpanelwhichwill
openthegeneratorbreakerwhenthereversepowerflowexceedsasetpoint.Atthatpoint,the
turbinespeedwillbesomethinglessthanFSNL,dependingonwhatthesettingofthereverse
powerrelay/sequencingis.
Infact,thisishowaGEheavydutygasturbinegeneratorisautomaticallyunloadedduringa
STOPsequence:TNRislowereduntilreversepowerflowsintothegeneratorwhichactuates
somerelay/logicwhichopensthegeneratorbreaker,andthentheunitgoesintoa"fired
shutdown"sequence.Somesitehavethereversepowersetting"increased"toavaluewhichis
eitherequalto0MWorjustslightlyhigherthan0MWinordertopreventadverselyaffecting
theelectricalgrid.
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Itneedstobenotedthatwhenanygeneratorissynchronizedwithothergeneratorsonan
electricalgridandthatgeneratoris"loaded"whatisactuallyhappeningisthatgeneratoris
"accepting"loadfromtheothergeneratosontheelectricalgrid.Theamountofloadonan
electricalgridisNOTequaltotheratingand/oroutputofthegeneratorsconnectedtothegrid,it
istheamountoflightsandmotorsandtransformersconnectedtothegrid.Inotherwords,the
amountofelectricalpowergenerationonanACelectricalgridcannotexceedtheamountof
electricalcomsumptiononthegridorthegridfrequencywillfluctuate.(TherearenoAC
batteriesor"storagepools"or"warehouses"inexistencetoday....)
IfNOTHINGelsehappensonanACelectricalgridasageneratorissynchronizedtothegrid
andloadedthegridfrequencywillincreasetheamountwilldependonthetotalloadonthegrid
andtherelationshipoftheamountofloadthenewlysynchronizedgeneratorisaccepting.Onan
"infinite"grid(suchasinNorthAmericaorUK)theamountoffrequencyincreasefromfully
loadinga20MWratedunitcouldprobablyonlybemeasuredbyadigitalfrequencymeterwith
sixorsevendecimalplacesofaccuracy.Onasmallergridwithatotalloadof,say200MW,the
effectonfrequencycouldbemuchmoresignificant.
Tokeepthegridfrequencyconstant,electricalsystemoperatorsmustbeawareofunitswhich
arebeingsynchronizedandloaded,andmustunloadsomeotherunit(s)tomaintaingrid
frequencyagaindependingonthesizeoftheelectricalgridandthesizesofthegenerators
beingsynch'edandloaded.Inthesameway,unitsbeingunloadedanddisconnectedfromagrid
wouldtendtocausethegridfrequencytodecreaseifNOTHINGelseweredoneonthe
electricalgrid.So,otherunitsmustbeloadedasunitsareunloadedtomaintaingridfrequency.
Ifagridis"small"enoughandtheelectricalsystemoperatorhasaunit"large"enoughtoabsorb
mostgridloadswings,the"large"unitcouldbeoperatedinIsochronousmodewhichwill
adjusttheamountofenergybeingadmittedtotheprimemoverinordertomaintaingrid
frequency,tomakeTNH(NHP)equaltoTNR(DSP).IftheIsoch'sunitloadisallowdto
increasetoitsratedoutputandnoadditionalgenerationisbroughtonlineandthesystemload
increases,thenthegridfrequencywillbegintodecrease.Conversely,iftheIsochunitisallowed
tounloadtonearzerooutputandsystemloadcontinuestodecreaseandnoothergeneratorsare
unloaded,thenthegridfrequencywillbebegintoincrease.TheIsochunit'sprimemovermust
becapableofquicklyreactingtolargeloadswingsinordertopreventlargefrequency
fluctuations(suchasthetrippingofoneormoregeneratorsortheopeningofoneormorelarge
switchyardbreakerscausinglargeamountsofloadtobedisconnectedfromthegrid).
Thereisaschemereferredtoas'IsochronousLoadSharing'whichwillallowmultipleunitswith
governorsbeingoperatedinIsochronousgovernormodetoshareinmaintainingACelectrical
gridfrequency.
OnewonderswhyyourACelectricalgridfrequencyvariessomuch?Is(Are)therenoIsoch
unit(s)?Aregeneratorsconnectedtothegridunreliable(subjecttoexcessivetripping)?Isthe
"load"unstablebecauseofswitching/switchyardissues?

ByRahulPSharmaon3January,200610:50pm
Newyeargreetingstoyouandallwhoarereadingthesepostings...
Iamstillreadingandcomprehendingthedetailsofthelastmessageyouposted...Inourrecent
shutdownofMARKIIsystem,IreallyhadanopportunitytoobservethebehaviourofDSP
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w.r.ttheMWandFreqandSpeedoftheturbine...Broadly,Icouldunderstandandconclude
thatDSP=2*freq+(MW/5)...ForallthevaluesofSpeedDroopmodeofoperation,Iwas
abletoguesstheDSPvalueusingthis...Anditwasanexcitingexperiencedoingthat...Thanks
foryourvaluableexplaination....
Iremain,
Eversothankfully
Rahul

Bymarkvguyon5January,200611:07pm
Youshouldbeabletofindtheformulaandvaluesusedforconfiguringthespeedcontrol
inputtotheMin.ValuegateinyourSpeedTronicelementaryand/oryour'Control
Specification,ControlSystemSetting'documentfortheMkIIunit(s).
YoushouldbeabletofindthesameinformationintheControlSequenceProgramoftheMk
Vunit(s)andintheControlSpecificationoftheMkVunit.FollowtheTNRsignalthrough
theCSPasitgetscomparedtoTNHandtheerrorultimatelybecomesFSRN.
Section2oftheControlSpecificationdocumentcontainsthe'SpeedControlandProtection'
information.

ByPaulDCon7April,20061:06am
Thisyearwereplaceanoldturbinecontroller(ProControlABB)byanewTriconex
controller.Notbeingfamiliarwithturbinesingeneral,Ifoundyourdiscussionsabout'speed
droop'aninterestingstartingpointtobuildupmyunderstandingonthissubject.Thanksfor
sharingtheknowledge...

Bymarkvguyon5January,200611:36pm
Inyourcase(50cycleACelectricalgrid),2*freq=100,andMW/5=20(ratedpower
output)/5=4,whichis4%regulation,or4%droop.The100isreally100%ofratedspeed
(NHP).
20MWdividedby5(ratedpoweroutput/percentspeed)worksouttoa4%droopsetpoint.
Thevaluesyouseek(andhavebasicallydetermined)shouldallbedefinedinthe'Control
Specification,ControlSystemSettings'documentforyourMkII,inSectionII,'Speed
ControlandProtection.'

ByPeterMon6January,200612:41am
Withregardtoyourcommentsaboutgridfrequency,althoughintheUK/Europe/USA,grid
frequencyisreasonablywellcontrolled,inmanydevelopingcountriesthereisalmostno
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controlofgridfrequency.Inpartthiscanbeduetoashortfallingenerationifyouarerunning
everythingflatoutandthenyoustartsheddingorloseloadyouwillhavefrequency
excursions.Abouttenyearsagoandduringsomeloadcontroltests,IwitnessedtheIndiangrid
frequencychangefrom48.5to51.0Hzinamatterofminutes!
Insomesituationstheseproblemsarecompoundedbythenaturalresponseofsingleshaft
(industrial)GTstofrequencychanges.Ibelieveafewyearyearsago,aFarEastcountrywas
completely'blackedout'asaresultoffrequencyexcursionscausingtheGTstotrip.TheUK
GridCodewasactuallyamendedasaresultofthisincident!
Alsoregardingyourcommentsontheterm'droop'thisisactuallyaverywelldefinedterm
ref:BS132

Bymarkvguyon7January,20061:16pm
Gas(Combustion)turbines,ingeneral,whenbeingoperatedatratedpowerouputarebeing
operatedattheupperlimitsofturbineandfiringtemperatures.Theairflowthroughaxial
compressorsisgreatlyaffectedbyspeedfluctuations,andastheairflowincreasesor
decreasesthecriticaltemperaturesdecreaseorincrease,respectively.
Considerwhathappenswhenacombustionturbinegeneratoroperatingatratedpoweroutput
issubjectedtovaryingACelectricalgridfrequencies.Ifthegridfrequencydecreases,the
speedoftheturbinegeneratorandtheaxialcompressordecreases,andthedecreasedair
flowcausesthecriticaltemperaturestoincrease.Thecontrolsystemthenstartstodecrease
thefuelflowtodecreasethetemperatures,whichisexactlytheoppositeofwhatonereally
wantstohappen!Poweroutputdecreasesasair/fuelflowdecreasesduringalowfrequency
excursionwhenonereallywantspoweroutputtoincreasetohelpsupportthegrid.
Theoppositeistrueduringahighfrequencyexcursion.
Rememberthisiswhathappenswhentheunitsareoperatingatrated(i.e."Base")load.At
partload,thatdroopthingactuallydoeswhatit'ssupposedtodo.
YestheUKGridCoderequiresgasturbinecontrolalgorithmswhichmonitorfrequency
closelyandactually"overfire"gasturbinesduringlowfrequencyexcursions(andthe
oppositeduringhighfrequencyexcursion)topreventwhathappenedontheMalaypeninsula
inthelate1990s.
Canyoubemorespecificaboutthereferenceyoucited:BS132?(Or,shouldIjustbe
creativewithdecodingthetwoletteracronym.?.?.?)

ByRahulPSharmaon8January,200612:01pm
Yousaidthatwiththereducingfrequency,thespeedreducestokeepupwiththeGridfreq...
Thiscausestheairflowtoreduce(solowerPCD)andthecontrolsystemactstoreducethe
fueltoreducethetemp...ButthePCDtoTempcurvessaythattheControlsystemwould
increasethefuelasthePCDwouldreduce...wouldntitbeso?
Rahul
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Bymarkvguyon9January,200610:05pm
Forthoseunfamiliarwiththeterminology,PCDstandsfor'Pressure,CompressorDischarge.'
PCDisaGEMkIISpeedTronicturbinecontrolsystemsignalnameforaxialcompressor
dischargepressure.CPD,or,'CompressorPressure,Discharge,'istheGESpeedTronicMk
IV,MkV,&MkVIsignalnameforcompressordischargepressure.(Isn'tthisfun?Believeit
ornot,CDPwasactuallyusedforatimeonsomeSpeedTroniccontrolsystems....The
changeswerepartofalongabandonedintenttostandardizeonamethodologyfor
developingsignalnames:component,parameter,location,qualifier.CPDforCompressor
Pressure,Discharge.)
ThefollowingappliestoGEdesignheavydutygasturbinesoperatingonautomaticBase
Loadcontrol,alsoknownascompressordischargepressurebiasedexhausttemperature
control.(Newerunitsusecompressorpressureratiobiasedexhausttemperature,whichisjust
afancierwayofcalculatingthepressureincreaseacrossacompressor.)
Rahul,youlookatthecompressordischargepressurebiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol
curveandASSUMEthatbecauseexhausttemperatureincreaseswhencompressordischarge
pressuredecreasesthatfuelflowisincreasingwhenaunitisoperatingonautomaticBase
Loadcontrol.Youhavetheabilitytoprovetoyourselfwhatactuallyhappenstoexhaust
temperaturewhencompressordischargepressuredecreasesorincreaseswhiletheunitis
operatingonautomaticBaseLoadcontrol.
YouhaveaunitwithaMkVcontrolsystem.UseRealTimePlottingtocollectthefollowing
data:plotcompressordischargepressure(CPD),TTXM(TurbineTemperatureeXhaust,
Median),FQT(FuelFlow,Total),CTIM(CompressorTemperatureInlet,Median),andDW
(Drivendevice,Wattstheturbinedrives,orprovidespowertothegenerator,thedriven
device).Allofthesevalueswillbeplottedagainsttimeonthexaxis.(Onceyouconfigure
theRealTimePlot,itshouldcontinuetogatherdataforthosepointsevenifyouexitthe
displaytoreturntotheMainDisplayandthenreturntotheRealTimePlotdisplay.Ifit
doesn't,writebackobtainthe"switch"toconfigureRealTimePlottingto"remember"the
previoussignalsandcontinuegatheringdatawhiletheuserisviewingotherdisplays.)
Aftergatheringthedataforatleasta12hourperiodwiththeunitrunningonautomaticBase
Loadcontrol(preferrablyfrom,say,1200hoursto2400hours,orfrom0000hoursto1200
hours),analyzethedata.Duringthecourseofanyday,asambienttemperature(compressor
inlettemperature)increases,airdensitydecreases.Asairdensitydecreases,compressor
dischargepressuredecreases.Ascompressordischargepressuredecreases,poweroutput
decreases.Aspoweroutputdecreases,fuelflowdecreases.Asfuelflowandcompressor
dischargepressureandpoweroutputdecrease,whatishappeningtoexhausttemperature?
ItisINCREASING.
Asambienttemperatureisdecreasing,airdensityisincreasing.Asairdensityisincreasing,
compressordischargepressureisincreasing.Ascompressordischargepressureincreases,
poweroutputincreases.Aspoweroutputincreases,fuelflowincreases.Asfuelflowand
compressordischargepressureandpoweroutputincrease,whatishappeningtoexhaust
temperature?
ItisDECREASING.
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Fromtheplots,itcanbeseenthatfuelactuallyincreasesascompressordischargepressure
increases.Fuelequalstorquetorqueequalsampsampsequalswatts.Morefuelequalsmore
moretorquemoretorqueequalsmoreampsmoreampsequalsmorepower.Lessfuelequals
lesstorquelesstorqueequalslessampslessampsequalslesspower.
It_IS_somewhatcounterintuitive,butthat'sthewaycombustionturbinesworkwhen
operatingoncompressordischargepressurebiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol.Froma
previousdiscussion,thenegativelyslopedportionofthecompressordischargepressure
biasedexhausttemperaturecontrolcurverepresentsCONSTANTFIRING
TEMPERATURE.
But,firingtemperaturethetemperatureofthecombustiongasesenteringthefirststage
turbinenozzlesisnotbeingmonitored,onlyexhausttemperatureandcompressordischarge
pressurearebeingmonitored.WhenaunitisoperatingatBaseLoad,theSpeedTronicis
programmedtoadjustthefuelasnecessaryinordertomaintainaCONSTANTFIRING
TEMPERATUREascompressordischargepressure(thexaxis"variable"intheequation)
changes.Exhausttemperatureisthefunctionofthevariable(theyaxis).
Thealternativeistoloadtheunituntilfuelflowreachessomesetpoint,andthenmaintain
fuelflowconstantregardlessofchangesinambientconditions.Atsometimesduringtheday,
theunitwouldnotbeproducingasmuchpoweroutputasitcouldatotherpartsofthedayit
mightactuallybeoverfiring(exceedingtheoptimalfiringtemperaturefortheturbinesection
materials)andunnecessarilydecreasingthelifeexpectancyoftheparts.
But,gasturbineshavebeenoperatingfordecadesatBaseLoadwithcompressordischarge
pressurebiasedexhausttemperaturecontrolanddoingsoreliablyandasdesigned,with
optimalpartslifeandoptimaleffienciencyasambientconditionsvary.
Bytheway,youshouldalreadyhaveplotsoffuelflowandexhausttemperatureandpower
ouputastheunitisbeingloadedfromFSNLtoBaseLoad,andunloadedfromBaseLoadto
FSNL.Inallcases,ascompressordischargepressureincreases,fuelflowincreasesas
compressordischargepressuredecreases,fuelflowdecreases.ThedifferenceisthatatPart
Load(whentheunitisoperatingon...Droopspeedcontrol.!.!.!isn'tthiswherewestarted
thisthread????),theexhausttemperatureincreasesordecreasesasfuelincreasesor
decreases.
Aurevoir!

ByKJayapalon9April,20063:13pm
Wehaveagasturbinegeneratorrated20MWwithMarkVcontrolsystem.Itisrunningin
parallelwithtwosteamturbinegeneratorsrated10.5MWeach.Wearenotconnectedtothe
gridandrunoursysteminisolation.Oursystempeakloadis36MW.Wearenowrunningall
themachinesindroopmode.WewouldliketooperatethegasturbineinIsochronousmodeto
haveatightcontrolonoursystemfrequency.Butweforseeaproblemthatincaseoftripping
ofbigloads,theisochronousmachinemayunloadtobelow11MWandposeaproblemtothe
HRSGassociatedwithit.Isthereanywaybywhichwecanoperatethemachinein
isochronousmodeandensurethattheloadonitdoesnotgobelowapredefinedloadlimit?Is
therealogicthroughwhichtheIsochronousmodebemadetoreverttoDroopcontrolmodeon
reachingapredefinedload?Iguessnot.Plsprovideyourvaluableexpertcomments.Itwasan
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amazingexperiencegoingthroughyourdiscussion,startingwiththeflyballgovernorand
endingwiththelatesttechnology.
Bestregards.
K.Jayapal

Bymarkvguyon10April,20065:15pm
Itsoundsasifmaintainingsteamflow/temperature/pressuretoaprocessisarequirement,and
thatyouhavetomanuallyunloadthesteamturbinesinordertomaintainsufficientloadon
thegasturbinetohavesufficientexhausttemperaturefortheHRSG.Customsequencingand
logicintheMkVcouldbewrittentodosomethingsimilartowhatyoudescribeby
monitoringgasturbineoutputand/orexhausttemperature,butonewouldthinksomekindof
plantloadcontrolschemeexecutedinaDCSoroverallplantcontrolsystemtomonitorload
swingsandbreaker/starterstatusmightbeabetteroption.Thisway,thesteamturbinescould
beautomaticallyunloadedtokeepload/exhausttemperatureuponthegasturbine.
DoesthegasturbinehaveIGVExhaustTemperatureControl,sometimescalled"Combined
CycleExhaustTemperatureControl"?Ifso,isitenabledandworking?Forunitswith
modulatedIGVs,thiscanbeusedtomaximizeexhausttemperatureatpartloadoperation.
markvguy

ByPeterVon5January,200611:42pm
Goodarticleanddiscussions.Iamacontrolsystemsengineer,butnewinthiselectricpower
controlarea.
Ihavethefollowingtwocommentsandquestions:
1.ItwouldhelpalotiftheacronymslikeTNR,TNHandNHPwerefullyspelledoutanddefined.
AretheyrelatedtoGeneratorshaftRatedspeed?
2.IsitpossibleforyoutoprovidesimplealgorithmstodefineDroopSpeedControlas
proportionalcontrolequationswhichcouldaddressspecificationsofthefollowingtwoparagraphs
fromMarkvguyonDec27.
"GridfrequencyisNOTaninputtotheMin.ValuegateitISaninputtothe"speedloopo/p"
whichisaninputtotheMin.Valuegate."
"Droopspeedcontrolisstraightproportionalcontrolthereisnothinginproportionalcontrol
whichwilldrivetheactualvalueequaltobeequaltothesetpointiftheydiffer.Infact,many
timesinproportionalcontrolifthegainofthecontrolloopisincreasedtodrivetheactualvalueto
benearlyequaltothesetpoint,thesystemwillbecomeunstable."
AnyothertechnicalliteraturesyoucouldrecommendonthistopicDroopSpeedControl?Your
responsewillbeappreciated.Thanks.

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Bymarkvguyon7January,20062:41am
TNR:TurbineSpeedReference(expressedin%ofratedspeed)
DSP:DigitalSetPoint(turbinespeedreference,expressedin%ofratedspeed)
TNH:TurbineSpeed,HighpressureShaft(expressedin%ofratedspeed)actualturbinespeed
convertedtopercentofratedspeed
NHP:TurbineSpeed,HighpressureShaft(expressendin%ofratedspeed)actualturbine
speedconvertedtopercentofratedspeed.
It'sunfortunatethatthisdiscussioniscenteredonGESpeedTronicheavydutygasturbine
controlsystems,becausetheconceptofDroopspeedcontrolhasexistedformorethanacentury
andisessentialtotheproperoperationofACelectricalgenerationandgrids.Therehavebeena
coupleofrelatedthreadsinwhichthetermshavebeendefined,andthediscussionshavebeen
restarted(searchcontrol.comfor'droop'oranyofthetermsandyoucanfindtheprevious
threads).
It'sdifficulttoprovideexamplesofSpeedTronicalgorithmsbecausetheyinvolvemore
nmemonicsandsignalnames,whichdon'treallymeananythingtoanyonewithouta
SpeedTronicelementaryorControlSequenceProgramtoreference,butheregoes:
FSRN=(TNRTNH)*FSKNG
FSRN=FuelStrokeReferenceSpeedControl(%)
TNR=TurbineSpeedReference(%)
TNH=TurbineSpeedHighpressureShaft(%)(actualspeed)
FSKNG=DroopSpeedControlProportionalGai(%/%)
Theaboveequationishowthedroopspeedcontrolfuelflowreferenceisderived:theactual
turbinespeed(fixedbythegridwhentheunitissynch'edtothegrid)issubtractedfromthe
turbinespeedreference,andthatdifferenceismultipliedbyagaintoderivetheamountoffuel
tobeadmittedtothegasturbine.Astheturbinespeedreferenceisincreased,theactualturbine
speedremainsunchanged(whensynch'edtothegrid)sotheerrorbetweenthetwoincreasesand
thereforetheamountoffueltobeadmittedincreases.Straightproportionalcontrolno"reset",
no"integral",nothingtodrivetheactualspeedtobeequaltothereference(which,ofcourse,the
gridfrequencywouldneverallow,anyway).
Theturbinespeedreferenceisraisedorloweredbytheturbineoperator(orthecontrolsystemif
theunitisbeingoperatedinoneofseveralautomaticcontrolmodes)whenthepushtheRAISE
orLOWERbuttonispushedorthegovernorRAISE/LOWERswitchisheldtoonepositionor
theother.EventhoughtheymightbewatchingtheMWmeterastheyareinitiatingaRAISEora
LOWER,whattheyarereallychangingistheturbinespeedreference,whichischangingthe
amountoffuelbeingadmittedtotheturbine,whichischangingtheamountoftorquebeing
admittedtothegenerator,whichischangingtheamountofampsflowingoutofthegenerator,
whichischangingthe"load"ofthegenerator.
InaSpeedTronicheavydutygasturbinecontrolpanel,thereareseveraldifferent"FSRs"(Fuel
StrokeReferences)beingcalculatedatALLtimesdroopspeedcontrol(FSRN)isjustoneof
them.Theyareallinputstoa"minimumvaluegate"or"minimumvalueselector",andthe
lowestofalltheinputsactually"sets"theamountoffuelbeingadmittedtotheturbine.Inagas
turbine,it'simportantfortheexhausttemperaturenottoexceedacalculatedvalue,sooneofthe
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"min.valuegate"inputsisFSRTFuelStrokeReference,TemperatureControl.
Itshouldbenotedthatgridfrequencyitselfisnotaninputtoanythingsinceturbineshaftspeed
isdirectly"proportional"togridfrequencywhenthegeneratorissynch'edtothegrid.
Unfortunately,thereisnotmuchwrittenondroopspeedcontrolatleastinrecentliterature.In
researchforthesediscussions,mostoftherecentliteratureseemstodescribedroopspeed
controlastherelationshipofthedropinfrequencytothechangeinloadwhichmightbetrue
foranuncontrolledACelectricalmachine/grid,butthat'snottrueforelectricalgridstoday.
Inthelargestsense,droopspeedcontrolisthemeansbywhichmultipleelectricalgenerators
connectedinparalleltoanACelectricalgrid"share"loadwitheachother.(Thatword"share"
alsocausesalotofconfusionespeciallywhenOEMsuseitloosely....)
Itshouldbeclearfromtheforumlaabovethatwithsome"external"meanscontrollingfrequency
(speed),andifthatfrequencyremainsrelativelyconstant,thatbyusingtheerrorbetweena
variablespeedreferencetocontroltheamountofenergybeingadmittedtoaprimemover.When
thereferenceisnotchangingandthegridfrequency/speedisnotchanging,theamountofenergy
beingadmittedtotheprimemoverisnotchangingi.e.,it's"stable".Ifthereferenceisramped
upordownsmoothly,theerrorwillincreaseordecreasesmoothly,andtheamountofenergy
willbeincreasedordecreasedsmoothlyaslongasthegridfrequencyremainsrelativelystable.
TheothermeansofspeedcontrolIsochronousisverytightspeed/frequencycontrol.Ifmore
thanoneprimemoverisconfiguredtooperateinIsochronousgovernormodewhenconnectedto
anACelectricalgridwithotherprimemoversconfiguredinIsochronousmode,theIsochronous
governorswillliterally"fight"witheachothertocontrolfrequency,andwillbe
increasing/decreasingenergyveryquickly,causingtheiroutputstobeveryunstable.
Hence,theneedforsomemeansof"loadsharing"developed.AsthetotalloadonACelectrical
gridsincreasedabovethecapacityofonegenerator/primemoveranditwasnecessarytoparallel
theoutputsofmultiplegenerators,itwasimportanttohavethegovernorsoperatestablyand
"behave"whenconnectedwithothergenerators/primemovers.
IntheearlydaysofACelectricalpowergeneration,therewasonlyspeedcontrol:
speed/frequencyfeedbackandspeedreferenceinmechanicalgovernors(flyballgovernors).It
wasn'tpossibletoconvertload(KW)intomechanicallforcetouseinthemechanicalgovernors
ofyesteryear.
Today,mostgovernorcontrolsystemsprobablyusea420mApower(load)feedbacksignal,
andusesomeformofloadcontrolas"droop"controltoallowgeneratorsto"behave"when
synch'edwithothergeneratorsonACelectricalgrids.But,theimportantpointis:Theremustbe
somemeansofstablycontrollingthepowerouputofACelectricalgeneratorswhenconnected
withotherACelectricalgeneratorsonanACelectricalgrid.It'sstillcalled"droop"control
today,it'sprobablyjustnotaccomplishedinthesamewayasitwasinthebeginningofpower
generation.
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