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Vedic Physics: The best

kept secret.
Posted on February 25, 2012 by Rakesh H P

10 Votes

I will mention some of the greatest achievements made

by Ancient Indian Scholars in the field of Vedic Physics. Also shall be mentioned the
translated versions of Nyaya-Vaisesika Darsana (school of logical physics) and related
subjects. I would like to thank Indigo_child and Sbergman27 and many other who
have motivated me to come up with this article. No starch, pressed and folded:
The Theological school
The entire universe/space is called Prakriti and manifests by a vibration of the Svra, a
current of a life force or a super-string called the Parabrahman and the Purush. This in
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turns causes the subtle elements of the 5 ethers, or strings(the quality of ether is called
sound) to vibrate, the distinct vibration causes the Pancha-Mahabhuttas, the five
physical elements.
The five main elements occur in the following order of aggregation:
Akasha (Ether) Tejas (energy) Vayu (forces/fields) Pritvhi (Atomic elements) and
Apas (fluid)
Except for ether, all of the elements are composed of discreet and distinct indivisible
particles called Paramanu(beyond atoms) i.e. light is composed of discreet and distinct
particles. Space, soul and time are eternal.
The Rationalist school
The Darsanas were part of the six rationalist schools of the Vedas, the main schools
were Nyaya(logic), Vaiseshika(physics), Yoga(metaphysics) and
Sankhya(philosophy): Each school of thought is composed of its own Sutras or
aphorisms, rules or formulas, that condense volumes of knowledge into a few
sentences. They also contain Vriti(commentary), Bhaksha(explanations) by several
teachers, making them selfcontained texts on their discipline. Each Darsana also has a
Sutrakala, that is the first teacher that systematized the knowledge of the Vedic
teachers into sutras.
The geneology of the teachers of the schools are mentioned and can be traced far into
vedic times to the Krita Yuga, more than 5000 years ago. The NyayaVaisesika Sutra
was founded by Rishi Gautama and Kanada. The Nyaya and Vaisesika schools
originally started as separate schools, but then merged into one due to their common
rational approach. The Nyaya-Vaiseshika Sutra consists of 373 Sutras and is
composed of 12 chapters. Its main postulates are:
All of the universe is composed of the 5 mahabhuttas and the 4 non physicals:
that is Fluid, Atomic elements, fields/force, energy, ether and space, time, mind
and soul.
Except ether, all of the physical elements are made of discreet and distinct
paramanus or atoms
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Space-time is a frame in which the physical universe exists

There are seven categories of experience, which are substance, quality, activity,
generality, particularity, inherence, and nonexistence.
Energy and mass are equivalent.
The Vaiseshika Sutras deal with the investigation, observation and mechanics of the
universe and the elements and the theory of space and time. A lot of the modern
sciences are covered, including laws of motion, gravitation, thermodynamics, waves,
hydrostatics and magnetism among others.
Here are some of the Sutras (The source is from an Indian microbiologist):
Force is that which displaces, holds together or moves things apart.V.S 1.1.20
In the absence of a force, a particle of matter experiences no change. V.S 1.1.6
The forces to be considered are an external force, gravity, that with causes
attraction of particles, that which causes repulsion of particles and the internal
movements of them in matter.
Thus, vaisheShika aims at understanding a substance in terms of the effect of external
forces that act on it including gravity and the internal forces on its particles that cause
their attraction, repulsion and vibrations. Then the text makes a rather interesting
statement:
V.S 1.1.13 Action is opposed by an equivalent opposite reaction
V.S 5.1.1618 The diversities of the movement of an arrow are due to the
consecutive changes in the components of the acting forces. The stored energy
provides the propulsion to the arrow and this causes it move further to a high
point. This component keeps reducing while that of gravity increases resulting
in its fall.Once the work against gravity ceases then the body reaches an
energyless state falling under gravity.
V.S 1.1.27 The force on a body is the resultant of gravity and the work done
against it.

V.S 5.1.13 In the absence of all other forces (saMyogabindings) gravity exists.
V.S 5.1.7 The guna of forces (direction) prevents a magnitude from being
obtained
V.S.1.1.20a The nature of physical changes in matter is the terms of work being
done on the basic particles that constitute matter.
V.S 2.1.14 The particular nature of air is suggested by the mixing of gases that
occurs on their collision. Despite of being made of atoms and occupying space
air fails show orderly movement so its form cannot be perceived
V.S 4.1.8 Solids occupy space and assume form due to conglomeration of the
constituent particles.
V.S 4.1.6 The (fluids) particles possess energy. This causes them to possess the
property of fluidity. The heat bearing rays provide the particles with energy to
form a gas and rise. The heated particles of air impact the vapor and with this
energy it mixes with it. Freezing and melting of a liquid as being a result of
heat being taken up or given up by its particles.
V.S 5.2.9 Some apparently solid substances like ghee, lac and wax are in reality
liquids, as their particles are naturally heat-conjoined or disorganized as in
water. Other true solid substances such as tin, lead, iron, silver and gold need
their atoms to be supplied with external heat to disorder them before they
become a fluid.
V.S 2.1.67 Any bodys mass needs to be wholly explained in terms of its
constituent particles.
V.S 1.1.89 A substance can only emerge from another substance and not on its
own eventhough its properties change from one to another.
V.S 9.1.9 Any fundamental particular entity can be a constituent multiple
substances.
V.S 1.1.22 Any substance comprising of two or more primary particle types
requires a chemical reaction to generate the conjoining and break up of
preexisting molecules.

V.S 1.1.23 The molecules are stated as emerging from combinations between
the fundamental entities.

V.S 1.1.25 Forces are necessary to bring about combination and break up of
molecules.

V.S 1.1.28 The combinations of particles to produce molecules result in

substances with states very different from those of the original particles.

Prashastpada, 5th century commentator on VS mentiond two forms of physical force:

Vega (mechanical)
sthitisthApakatA (elasticity)
Prashastpada has defined Vega in the following ways:
It is as a result of mechanical force that action is produced.
Vega is proportional to the work produced and works in a given direction.
Vega opposes combination of matter and sometimes one Vega produces other
Vegas in sequence.
The inference of the above definition is as follows:
Vega (mechanical force) is a special cause for action.
Vega is proportional to the action produced and works in a given direction.
Vega is opposed by an equivalent opposite reaction
Kanadas laws:
In the production or increment of karma (i.e. motion), the root cause is force. In
other words, there is incremental or decremental change in motion.

This law is a law of the measure of force. According to this, so long mechanical
force works, there is change in motion i.e. there is momentum. To find its
value, it is calculated how much work it produces in a unit time.
Mathematically, the rate of change in momentum i.e. the increment in work in unit
time is proportional to the force in action. Also, this change is in the direction of the
force. Suppose that the mass of an object is m and in time interval t, the velocity of
the object changes from u to v due to the force acting on it. Then,
Initial momentum = mu
Final momentum = mv
Change in momentum = m(vu)
Therefore, the rate of change of momentum = m(vu)/
t = ma (from Kanadas first law)
From Kandas second law,
force is proportional to the rate of change of momentum.
Or, p k ma
Or, p = kma (where k is a constant)
If m=1 and a=1, then
1 = k*1*1 or k = 1
Or, p = ma
Therefore, unit force is the one that produces unit acceleration in an object of unit
mass. The VS then goes to say that force is a result of work and is not a physical
quantity which is superior to Newtons law that measures it as a physical quantity.
The sutras on energy:
Vaiseshika defines energy as being a radiant thing(i.e. energy is radiation) and energy
is related to
temperature and motion of a particle.
Prashatpad has discussed four kinds of energy: terrestrial, celestial, abdominal and
Akaraj. These are
defined according to their source:
Terrestrial: When fuels are burnt with a flame such as wood or coal
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Celestial: The energy produced by the sun and in electricity

Abdominal: The cause of the process of digestion or subphysical.
Akaraj: Paraphysical, metals like gold and platinum have this kind of energy.
There are material obstructions of two kinds:
That which absorbs energy.
That which refracts energy(the knowledge of refraction of energy is
corroborated by the study of spectroscopy(Anshubodhini).
That unseen cause of the motion of an iron rod towards a magnet and the
effects of electricity are different kinds of energies.
Sound(waves) is also an energy and there are many forms of sound:
Sound that is in matter.
Sound aspect of matter.
If would seem from the above, that not only are sound, light, heat, electricity and
magnetism seen to the same, but particle-wave duality is also understood and the
refraction of energy and matter. I wonder what kind of para-physical energy is in
gold and platinum? Anyone got an idea?
The Physics of light
The first physics of light in the modern world was proposed by Sir Isac Newton, that
demonstrated that light can be split by a prism into its component rays/colors,
however he believed light to be of infinite speed. His physics of light was rejected by
mainstream science at the time. However, in Vedic India, the physics of light was
understood and accepted. We also know that they had calculated the speed of light. As
we have demonstrated in the previous post, the Vedic Indians understood the process
of refraction and absorbtion of energy by material obstructions and they understood
heat, eletricity and magnetism to be forms of energy. It is already understood by the
elemental theory that light is also an energy and is composed of discreet units. This
was of course was not understood in modern times till Max Plank and Einstein in the
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20th cetury devised quantum theory after the study of black body radiation and the
photoelectric effect.
Proof of the understanding of the physics and properties of light from various schools
of Vedas:
The Mimamsa school:
A flame is considered to comprise of light particles in constant motion and
forming a radiation diffusing away from the wick. The field of vision of an eye
extends out to in increasing circles and ends at the object. Cakrapani however
felt that light rays move out in all directions much as sound waves do, the
difference being that light travels faster.
The school of Ayurveda(medicine):
Light arriving at the retina serves both to illuminate the world world and thus
become the faculty of vision. Varahamihira, the reflection of light is caused by
light particles arriving on an object and then backscattering (kiranavighattana,
murcchana). Vatsyayana refers to this phenomenon as rasmiparavartana and
this explains the casting of shadows and opacity. Vacaspati interpreted light as
composed of minute particles emitted by substances and striking the eyes.
Refraction is caused by the ability of light to penetrate inter-atomic spaces of
translucent or transparent materials. Uddyotakara drew a comparison with
fluids moving through porous objects (tatra-parispandah tiryaggamanam
parisravah pata iti).
Color recognition was understood by the Nyaya-Vaisesikas as being caused by
the nature of human eyes.
The Eyes: were made up chiefly by unseen tejas particles(I suppose this refers
to eye pigments). We already know they knew all the colors of visible light and
their order in the electromagnetic spectrum, from the metaphysical charka
system, of 7 main energy vorticies in the body from the base of the spine to the
top of the head, each vibrating at a certain frequency and having a certain color.
They are as follows: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. This is also
taught by Ramas acharya(teacher) in the Ramayana when he is in school. This
knowledge can also be found in the Vedas (it should not be surprising, as the
schools are based on the
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Vedas):
Seven horses draw the chariot of the sun, tied by snakes .Rg Veda 5.
45. 9
The above poetic verse is extremely interesting, because not only
does horse mean rays of light in this context, but the motion of a snake is
curved, and it would therefore imply they knew light did not travel in straight
lines, but in a curved path, which is a predicate of relativity that space-time is
curved. This can be further corroborated by a verse in the Athara Veda, that
says: there are seven types of suns rays sapta surayasya rasmayah. abilities
to reflect and refract it, it would seem logical therefore that some kind of lens
devices would have.
This a very modern scientific understanding of light. As, they understood light so
well, as well as been devised, such as telescopes. It would certainly explain some of
the astronomical data recorded in the Vedas. However, we will see later, that the
understanding was so advanced that they could do light spectroscopy, which is part of
the Amsu Bodhini by Maharishi Bhadarwaja(who also wrote the Vyaamnaika Shastra)
and such a device has in fact been designed and tested by Indian scientists from
directions in it.
The secrets of alchemy:
As has been discussed already in other threads, the knowledge of the atomic numbers
of elements is implied in the verse in Srimad Bhagvatam, where it said that bells metal
is transmuted into gold through an alchemical process and bells metal is an alloy of
copper and tin(Cu29 + Sn50 = Au79). As we know the science of alchemy originates
in India, there is also some indications of alchemy in Egypt. In the above, we saw
from the Vaiseseshika Sutras that certain metals are specified that are said to have a
para-physical energy called Akaraj, and it mentions gold and platinum. We also know
that Mercury had a very important role in vedic alchemy and is used in many devices,
such as the mercury vortex ion engine.
There is something very astonishing about these metals: They belong to a rare group
of metals called ORMES (Orbitally Rearranged Mono-atomic elements) that have
only been recently discovered by high energy physicists and possess para-physical
qualities:

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The ORMES or m-state materials are thought to be the precious metal elements in a
different atomic state. The following elements have been identified in this different
state of matter:
Known ORMES Elements:
Element-Atomic Number
Cobalt 27
Nickel 28
Copper 29
Ruthenium 44
Rhodium 45
Palladium 46
Silver 47
Osmium 76
Iridium 77
Platinum 78
Gold 79
Mercury 80
These m-state elements have been observed to exhibit superconductivity,
superfluidity, Josephson
tunneling and magnetic levitation. These m-state elements are also present in many
biological systems. They may enhance energy flow in the microtubules inside every
living cell. We are beginning to see now that the physics of Vedic times is extremely
advanced and we also have proof of it. We may learn something new about physics
yet.
Wave Mechanics:
Most of the modern physics of the nature of waves was discovered in the 17th century
and the late 16th century. Galileo was the first to study the nature of sound and waves
and later his contemporaries advanced it further. However, as we have seen from the
mounting evidence, physics in vedic times was more advanced, so not surprisingly the
physics of waves was also understood and to an astonishing level(can you expect less
from a culture that says everything is vibrations) In fact weve seen it was also
understood that particles have a wave nature. As with all vedic physics, this is all
united into a metaphysical concept of soul and mind. Remember, in vedic physics the
observer is united with the universe. There exists no duality and separation in the
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vedic model of the universe, it is only part of an illusion of the mind, and it called
maya thus modern quantum mechanics is closer to the vedic model than the
mechanistic wave or particle model is.
According to VS, there are two types of sound:
Musical sound
Vocal sound
The cause of sound is due to the result of oscillation of particles in the air causing by
the sound wave and the particles working concurrently. The Mimamsaka school held
that sound itself and its travel was the result of the condensation and rarefaction of air
molecules. The intensity and timbre of sound was seen as varied and a consequence of
the varying kampasantanasamskara (vibrations) of air molecules.
Sound are defined as waves and and there are two modes of waves according to the
VS:
Traverse
Longitudanal
This is explained in ancient Indian literature on music. Musical pitches(sruti) are
caused by momentum and frequency of vibrations. A svara, or tone(note, god is also
called a svara in the Shiva Purnana) is said to consist of a sruiti(fundamental tone) and
anuranana(harmonics) Note, while it defines anuranana as harmonics, the root anu
means particles, however as this is defined as a wave and it is already understood that
particle and waves dual, therefore it could also mean harmonics of wavicles.
The relationship between svara and sruti, that is momentum and frequency of
vibrations and tone, can be understood as parinama(nodal change),
vyanjana(manifestation) jativyaktyoriva tadatmyam (genus and species),
vivartana(reflection) and karyakaranabhava(cause and effect). An example is given of
a wave on the surface of water. When a disturbance is created(dropping a pebble for
instance) it creates a wave, which creates another equal wave with the same motion
and this creates another equal and this progression continues towards the end. This is
very similar to Huygens Principle, which says that each point on a wave front are
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independent sources, which produce more wave fronts, called wavelets at the same
velocity as the propagation wave.
According to VS, sound is the highest quality of the fourth state of matter(ether or
akasha) The ether itself has 5 states. It would appear it is referring to the state of
plasma. As it explains the first state of ether arises due to high vibrations of sound. It
says that matter has a sound aspect, and when a vibration is caused it generates an
acoustical wave which travels through the air working with it concurrently and
resulting in oscillations of paticles in the air and this causes the intermolecular space
of the air to rise in vibrations and causes the atoms to eventually work into the first
state of the ether.
As weve learnt from the VS earlier the state of solids, liquids and gas were
understood in terms of the kinetic energy i.e. vibrations. When a particle is supplied
energy from the heat bearing rays it disorders and posses the quality of
fluidity(kinetic energy) which then rises into a vapor and joins with gasses in the air
and it says the first ether is then produced from further vibrations of air, which can
only be caused by providing even more energy, therefore the ether is indeed plasma.
Plasma IS produced by heating gas to the point where it starts to release electrons and
become ionized; i.e. charged gas is plasma. I think this is interesting, because for the
first time a clear link between plasma and the metaphysical ether has been made. Thus
we learn from the VS, that beyond plasma there are four other states. The key is
vibration in creating those. However, if we continue to increase the vibration of the
frequency in this matter indefinitely, eventually it will cause space itself by causing
the fabric of space-time to rupture! Now, that is very interesting because space and
time are indeed mentioned as the nonphysical elements in the VS. And, please do
excuse me for my excitement, it EXPLAINS the physics of the quantum vacuum.
Why does emptiness have such an amazing potential of energy? Because, to create
space we need an amazing amount of energy, and therefore the viritual quanta that
fluctuate in and out of existence, are actually nothing more than particles vibrating at
an amazing rate. This ultimately brings us to the Vedic concept of the entire universe
being the vibration of the life force. The physics in the Vedas is truly astonishing. And
it is no wonder why so many quantum physicists, such as Bell, Bohr, Heisenberg,
Schrodinger, Einstein adored it so much. As Einstein said
when referring to how god created the universe in Bhagvad Gita everything else
seemed superfluous.

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There are many famous people, writers and Nobel laureates that hold Vedic literature
in high esteem. For example Nicola Tesla: he is undoubtedly one of the greatest
physicists and inventors to have lived. Yet, little is known that Nicola Tesla was very
strongly influenced by the vedic literature and actually used Sanskrit terminology in
one of his unpublished articles. It is very likely his theory of free energy and wireless
transmission of electricity was influenced by the vedic teachings:
There manifests itself in the fully developed being , Man, a desire mysterious,
inscrutable and irresistible: to imitate nature, to create, to work himself the wonders
he perceives
Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a primary substance,
or tenuity beyond conception, filling all space, the Akasha or luminiferous ether,
which is acted upon by the life giving Prana or creative force, calling into existence,
in never ending cycles all things and phenomena. The primary substance, thrown into
infinitesimal whirls of prodigious velocity, becomes gross matter; the force subsiding,
the motion ceases and matter disappears, reverting to the primary substance.
According to Leland Anderson the article was written May 13th, 1907. Anderson also
suggested that it was through association with Swami Vivekananda that Tesla may
have come into contact with Sanskrit terminology and that John Dobson of the San
Francisco Sidewalk Astronomers Association had researched that association. It is
also interesting to note that Tesla tried to show that matter is just potential energy after
a discourse with Swami Vivekanada:
Vivekananda met with many of the well known scientists of the time including Lord
Kelvin and Nikola Tesla. According to Swami Nikhilananda: Nikola Tesla, the great
scientist who specialized in the field of electricity, was much impressed to hear from
the Swami his explanation of the Samkhya cosmogony and the theory of cycles given
by the Hindus. He was particularly struck by the resemblance between the Samkhya
theory of matter and energy and that of modern physics. The Swami also met in New
York Sir William Thompson, afterwards Lord Kelvin, and Professor Helmholtz, two
leading representatives of western science. Sarah Bernhardt, the famous French
actress had an interview with the Swami and greatly admired his teachings.
In a letter to a friend, dated February 13th, 1896, Swami Vivekananda noted the
following:
Mr. Tesla was charmed to hear about the Vedantic Prana and Akasha and the
Kalpas, which according to him are the only theories modern science can
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entertain..Mr Tesla thinks he can demonstrate that mathematically that force and
matter are reducible to potential energy. I am to go see him next week to get this
mathematical demonstration. [10]

Swami Vivekananda was hopeful that Tesla would be able to show that what we call
matter is simply potential energy because that would reconcile the teachings of the
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Vedas with modern science. The Swami realized that In that case, the Vedantic
cosmology [would] be placed on the surest of foundations. The harmony between
Vedantic theories and and western science was explained by the following diagram:
BRAHMAN

THE ABSOLUTE

MAHAT OR ISHVARA
|
+---------+
PRANA and AKASHA

PRIMAL CREATIVE ENERGY

|
+---------+
=

ENERGY and MATTER

It is not exactly known just how influenced Einstein was by the vedic literature. But, it
is known that Einstein had actually been exposed to the Bhagvad Gita and held it in
very high esteem. Remember, the relation between energy, mass and frequency and
the relativity of time(we will cover this later) was already understood in the vedic
literature and the speed of light was calculated and first mentioned in the 10th century
by Sayana. Just before, Nicola Tesla was trying to relate energy and mass. So, Einstein
could have indeed learnt it from the Vedas.
Erwin Schrodinger, famous for the physics paradox schrodingers cat and his works
on wave theory of matter, the co-founder of quanum theory for which he was awarded
the nobel prize for physics was obsessed with the Vedas. In fact he said in his
autobiographical essay he explains that his discovery of quantum mechanics was an
attempt to give form to central ideas of Vedanta which, in this indirect sense, has
played a role in the birth of the subject. In 1925, before proposing theory was
complete,
Erwin Schrodinger wrote:

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This life of yours which you are living is not merely apiece of this entire existence,
but in a certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be
surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins express in that
sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and so clear: [tat tvam asi], this is
you.
Even the famous Schrodinger cats paradox was an old Sankhya Vedic paradox that
Schrodinger explains in his 1925 essay. In the 5th century a debate was held between
the Hindus and Buddhists as to the nature of the universe flux, they said this:
Buddists: The phenomena consist of an infinity of discrete moments following one
another almost without intervals. There is no matter at all, flashes of energy follow
one another and produce the illusion of stabilized phenomena. The universe is a
staccato movement.
Hindus: The phenomena are nothing but waves or fluctuations standing out upon the
background of an eternal, all pervading undifferentiated Matter with which they are
identical. The universe represents a legato movement.
In 1925 Schrdinger resolved that paradox the way the Vedantists did: he asserted that
all consciousness is one. As he wrote:
But it is quite easy to express the solution in words, thus: the plurality [of
viewpoints] that we perceive is only an appearance; it is not real. Vedantic philosophy,
in which this is a fundamental dogma, has sought to clarify it by a number of
analogies, one of the most attractive being the many faceted crystal which, while
showing hundreds of little pictures of what is in reality a single existent object, does
not really multiply the object.
Here is another quote from his essay:
you may suddenly come to see, in a flash, the profound rightness of the basic
conviction of Vedanta:
knowledge, feeling and choice are essentially eternal and unchangeable and
numerically one in all men, nay in all sensitive beings.

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According to his biographer Walter Moore, there is a clear continuity between

Schrodingers understanding of Vedanta and his research:
Schrodinger became a Vedantist, a Hindu, as a result of his studies in his search for
the truth. Schrodinger kept a copy of the Hindu scriptures at his bedside. He read
books on Vedas, yoga, and Sankhya philosophy and he reworked them into his own
words, and ultimately came to believe them. The Upanishads and the Bhagavadgita
were his favorite scriptures.
According to his biographer Moore, His system or that of the Upanishads is
delightful and consistent: the self and the world are one and they are all. In a famous
essay on determinism and free will, he expressed very clearly the sense that
consciousness is a unity, arguing that this insight is not new From the early great
Upanishads the recognition [Atman = Brahman] (the personal self equals the
omnipresent, all comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought considered, far
from being blasphemous, to represent the quintessence of deepest insight into the
happenings of the world. The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having
learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate in their minds this grandest of
all thoughts.
He considered the idea of pluralization of consciousness and the notion of many souls
to be naive. He considered the notion of plurality to be a result of deception ([maya]):
the same illusion is produced by a gallery of mirrors, and in the same way
Gaurisankar and Mt. Everest turned out to be the same peak seen from different
valleys.
Schrodinger wrote a philosophical book later on called,What is Life? which also
used Vedic ideas. The co-discoverer of the DNA code was very inspired by
Schrodingers book.
David Bohm: Bohms contributed on the work on the Manhattan project to devise the
nuclear bomb. He contributed a lot of quantum mechanics and relativity theory,
discovering the electron phenomena of the Bohm-diffusion. He also became very
fascinated with the Vedas and was astounded to as how well his theories on quantum
mechanics were consistent with the vedic views. Here is a transcript of a conversation
between Bohm and Weber:

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Bohm: Well, they say three persons, the Trinity, which are one. Anyway, it is
something like a human being, or rather the other way around; that man is the image
of God. That implies that there is a total significance. If you say Atman, in Hinduism,
something similar is implied.
Weber: Atman and Brahman, seen as identical; the micro and the macrocosm.
Bohm: Yes, and Atman is from the side of meaning. You would say Atman is more
like the meaning. But then what is meant would be Brahman, I suppose; the identity
of consciousness and cosmos.
Weber: Looked at from the so called subjective side it would be Atman. And what is
meant is the objective: meaning in this sense that somasignificant and signasomatic
unite the two sides. This claims that the meaning and what is meant are ultimately
one, which is the phrase Atman equals Brahman of classical Hindu philosophy.
Weber: Its an identity thesis claim. To relate this again to what some of the great
philosophers of the past have said: soma-significant and signa-somatic arent they
your way of working out your own creative concepts for what Spinioza meant by
mind and body, and what Hegel meant by subject and substance?
Bohm: Yes, this is a way of understanding how these are related, extending the
understanding, or extending the meaning.
Weber: It has plagued philosophers through the ages that there are these two ways of
apprehending reality. You are proposing that signa [mind] and somatic [body] are
somehow the very fabric of everything in the universe and that this gets expressed in
appropriate ways at different levels of organization.
Bohm: Yes [meaning is relevance in a knowledge unit for producing the change that
results in the emergence of the prime attribute, and the larger context in which it
causes change]. and the bridge is the energy that creates the soma and regulates it and
so on.
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Weber: Lets pursue this idea of the bridge of energy.

Bohm: The energy which is informed with meaning [potential relevance in this
circumstance].
Weber: Could one put into words the idea of a meaning or a purpose for all this? You
once suggested greater clarity of the universe about itself.
Bohm: That could be part of its end. Maybe an end of greater order, greater clarity, an
end to create something.
Weber: So that meaning and being become transparently clear to the organism at all
levels of itself?
Bohm: That would be part of the end. I dont know how to put the end yet. The end
could be said to be love, it could be said to be order, harmony, but the end could also
be said to be the process itself.
Weber: Spinoza would have liked that. He said that the universe doesnt have to have
a reason, it is, and thats enough. Although you start out from physics, your view
seems to be similar to that.
Bohm: Yes, because its not to say that it has meaning, but that it is its meaning. We
are trying to be more clear as to what this meaning is, because then it will have
changed our being. [Since this meaning is the only one we have, it is good. Living in
harmony with it is good. Living in disharmony with it is evil. [72798jb]
Weber: You are a physicist, yet so much of this sounds like what a mystic would say:
that in the mystical experience there simply is profound and selfevident meaning,
without utilitarian overtones. Isnt that what you are saying?
Bohm: Yes,. utility is only a small part of meaning. Utility is a meaning, but its a
rather restricted
meaning. The question is: Useful for what? It always occurs in some context without
the context we cannot discuss utility.

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Weber: So concerning the question raised earlier, Do we discover or do we create

meaning? it is as if in discovering it we create it or create it in us.
Bohm: Not only that, but we enrich it; we create something which has not been there
[but had the
potential to be there, if organized properly].
Weber: We add to it.
Bohm: Yes, we are part of it and it is part of us.
Weber: Since any meaning we grasp in it changes its being, this makes us partners in
the evolution of the universe.
Bohm: Yes, thats the proposal p. 449.

Weber: Well what does all this imply for the human world? Looking at the universe
in this way changes our lives in what way?
Bohm: Its hard to say at first, but it will clearly imply something very different, a
different attitude in the sense that we wont give that much primary weight to the
external and the mechanistic side the side of fragmentation and partiality [Slobadan
Milosovich, us against them at all costs. They do not matter, because we are different
from them and distant from them with no interaction with them determinism (separate
and independent, fractured mentally (not integrated) and fractured socially (projecting
out major parts of ourselves on to the enemy]. Also it encourages us much more
toward a creative attitude, and fundamentally it opens the way to the transformation of
the human being because a change of meaning is a change of being. At present we say
because of the confused fragmentary meanings we have confused fragmentary being,
both individually and socially. Therefore this opens the way to a whole being, in
society and in the individual.

Weber: To relate it to human psychology and transformation, the key seems to be the
Socratic maxim Know yourself, go inward, and also Observe.
Bohm: And also outward. The outward and the inward are one part of one total
meaning.
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Robert Oppenhemier was a very famous nuclear physicist and also called the father of
the nuclear bomb, he made many contributions to quantum mechanics and later his
work lead to the quantum tunneling effect. He was also smitten by Vedic literature and
used a passage from the Bhagvad Gita to describe the first nuclear bomb explosion.
He even alluded to the belief that the the nuclear bomb is not the first in human
history. Here are some of the things he said and wrote:
Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous
centuries.
The general notions about human understanding which are illustrated by
discoveries in atomic physics are not in the nature of things wholly unfamiliar, wholly
unheard of or new. Even in our own culture they have a history, and in Buddhist and
Hindu thought a more considerable and central place. What we shall find [in modern
physics] is an exemplification, an encouragement, and a refinement of old wisdom.
He was asked by Christian Century magazine to list 10 books that have shaped his life
and philosophy of the world. Two of those he mentioned were vedic texts and a third
by T.S elliot(who was also a veda lover) which alluded to a lot of vedic literature. We
therefore learn that a lot of modern quantum physics is based on the Vedas and many
scientists and physicists appreciate them. Yet, it is not surprising, because the Vedas
indeed are the fountain head of knowledge and we are seeing in this thread just how
advanced Vedic physics is and hence why so many scientists resonate with them.
Space and time
The nature of space and time:
The science of space, time are amongst the highest science of the Vedas, and indeed
space, time and consciousness, also called metaphysics, is what modern scientists are
grappling with today. This is 21st century science and the ball was set into motion by
Einsteins theory of relativity. Relativites main postulates are that space and time are
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relative to the observer and energy and mass are equivalent and most cutting edge
quantum physics has devised the model of observer dependent spacetime.
Slowly, we are coming towards the vedic model of the universe, though our
understanding is still premature. The Vedic Indians already had figured it all out
thousands of years before Einstein and modern quantum physicists. The argument
between Schrodinger and Heisenberg had already taken place between the Buddhists
and Hindus 1500 years ago. The particle-wave duality and the equivalence of energy
and matter was already postulated in the Vaiseshikla sutra near 3000 years ago and all
this knowledge is as ancient as the Vedas which could be more than 10,000 years old.
We will now cover space and timeseparately according to the vedic model. Space,
time and mind are considered as nonphysical elements and seen as energies that are
composed of particles. The nature of space, time and mind is fractal, like a molecule
of DNA, that is that subset contains the entire set. This is surmised in this passage
from the yoga sutra: the entire universe exists in one subatomic particle and the three
worlds exist in one strand of hair.
Space:
There is space and there is Prakriti Prakriti is unmanifest infinite space. While, space,
is the manifest state of Prakriti and is a form of energy, it is calleed akasha or ether. As
weve seen earlier akasha exists in 5 states of energy and the first is plasma and
beyond the plasma state exists space-energy. So Space is not a void, but rather a form
of energy. It is composed of constituent particles in a constant state of flux. Further,
space is not flat, rather it is curved and this is because of the high state of space energy
and its universal gravitational field. Yes, space would thus have a univeral
gravitational field, because its a high concentration of energy at a single point an
because of the curved nature of space. Matter is not the cause of gravity, rather gravity
is an effect of space. We learn this in the Shiva Purna where it tells us that the ethers
shape Prakriti into a sphere. Space is defined as a frame in which matter exists in the
Vaiseshika-Sutra, while the Srimad Bhagvatam define space as a bubble in which
matter exists. Ultimately, it is called maya an illusion.
Time:
Time is called samay and is also a form of energy, one of the non physical elements,
and the cause of all material nature. The factor of time affects all people in different
ways. A difficult concept this maybe for some to grasp, but the past, present and the
future are simply illusory and they all exist in one moment in the absolute reality of
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Mahavishnu. The time aspect of this universe(there are infinite universes) is seen as
both relative to the observer and absolute to Brahmas reality the universal
consciousness. The vedic time cycles are measured relative to Brahma. His time is as
follows:
One day of Brahma: 4.32 billion years
One day and night of Brahma: 8.6 billion years
One life of Brahma: 133 trillion years
(According to 5th century Indians we are in the 51st year of Brahamas life, so the
universe is some 600 billion years old. That is many times the current estimate).
The higher universes/worlds exist in a state of high energy and time is slower there. In
the Purans it speaks of humans being that have gone to the higher universes/world for
minutes and seconds and experienced time-dilation effects of thousands and millions
of years.
One such account is given in the Srimad Bhagvatam Purana: A king of an
submarine(underwater) civilization, maharishi Kakudmi and his Revati were a highly
advanced race with great technology.
Kakudmi went on his spaceship to the Brahamas world/universe. O Maharaja
Pariksit, subduer of enemies, Revata constructed a kingdom known as Kusasthali in
the depths of the ocean. There he lived and ruled such tracts of land as Anarta, etc. He
had one hundred very nice sons, of whom the eldest was Kakudmi. Taking his own
daughter, Revati, Kakudmi went to Lord Brahma in Brahmaloka, which is
transcendental to the three modes of material nature, and inquired about a husband for
her.
When Kakudmi arrived there, Lord Brahma was engaged in hearing musical
performances by the Gandharvas and had not a moment to talk to him. Therefore
Kakudmi waited, and at the end of the musical performances he offered his obeisances
to Lord Brahma and thus submitted his long standing desire. After hearing his words,
Lord Brahma, who is most powerful, laughed loudly and said to Kakudmi, O King,
all those whom you may have decided within the core of your heart to accept as your
son-in-law have passed away in the course of time. Twenty seven catur-yugas have
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already passed. Those upon whom you may have already decided are now gone, and
so are their sons, grandsons and other descendants. You cannot even hear about their
names. (SB 9.3.2832)
A caturyuga = 4,320,000 years
27 catur yuga = 116,640,000
One second of Brahma = 100,000
Therefore Kakudmi was waiting for 19 min and 26 seconds and 116,640,000 years
had elapsed on Earth. Experts from Vedic texts on time:
Srimad Bhagvatam Purana:
The time factor, who causes the transformation of the various material
manifestations, is another feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Anyone who does not know that time is the same Supreme Personality is afraid
of the time factor. (SB 3.29.37)
All these are considered the qualified Brahman. The mixing element, which is
known as time, is counted as the twenty fifth element. (SB 3.26.15)
The influence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is felt in the time factor,
which causes fear of death due to the false ego of the deluded soul who has
contacted material nature. (SB 3.26.16).
My dear mother, O daughter of Svayambhuva Manu, the time factor, as I have
explained, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, from whom the creation
begins as a result of the agitation of the neutral, unmanifested nature. (SB
3.26.17)
By exhibiting His potencies, the Supreme Personality of Godhead adjusts all
these different elements, keeping Himself within as the Supersoul and without
as time. (SB 3.26.18)
The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His feature of eternal time, is present
in the material world and is neutral towards everyone. No one is His ally, and
no one is His enemy. Within the jurisdiction of the time element, everyone
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enjoys or suffers the result of his own karma, or fruitive activities. As, when the
wind blows, small particles of dust fly in the air, so, according to ones
particular karma, one suffers or enjoys material life. (SB 4.11.20)
Conclusion:
This is a highly advanced understanding of space and time. Weve seen that the nature
of space and time as an energy, their relativity and the effects of time-dilation.
Vedic Spectroscopy
Here is the piece on the ancient light spectroscopy, and is the clearest proof yet of how
advanced vedic civilization were, and consistent with other vedic texts. I have worked
very hard in getting the Hindi translated with my friend. Some parts still remain
untranslated and I will not include them, as they are probably not necessary. They talk
about prism settings, calculations and instructions on how to make the lens and
prisms.
As was said, recently Indian scientists had constructed an ancient
spectrometer/monochrometer from Maharishi Bharadwajas Amsu Bodhini.
Maharishi Bharadwaja is the same author of the Vymaanika Shastra, however unlike
the Vyaamanika Shastra, the Amsu Bodhini has not been channeled psychically and
was kept in a very old library at Oriental institute, Vadodara in India. It is the first
chapter of Maharishis masterwork yantra Saraswana(all about machines) of which
VS(science of aeronautics) is also a section.
This is a highly credible and technical text and supported by the biggest scientific
institutes in India, including NML(National metallurgical lab) where it was
constructed. It was also published in Indias prestigious scientific journal, INSA. I
have also included the original Sanskrit, I dont know what much good it will do, but
for those who want to research this further, can do so. The information given in this
post on the spectrometer will probably not be sufficient to understand how it works or
construct one from the directions. This is because this is not an engineering post, but a
post to show that spectroscopy was practiced in Vedic India. For those who want the
entire scientific papers, you will have to arrange for this yourself by either contacting
NML or INSA. What is certain however, that they do exist.

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We will also note that the theory of particle physics, radiation and quantum dynamics
of ancient India, all that have been explained from their original source in this thread,
were advanced enough to allow the empirical science of spectroscopy(heck, weve
also learnt that some of modern physics is derived from the Vedas) The key
knowledges are for any kind of spectroscopic knowledge are the following:
Energy and mass are equivalent
Heat and light are a form of energy; radiation
Light is composed of discreets units of quanta
A particle has a wave nature
The wave nature of radiation
A wave can be absorbed, reflected or refracted with certain materials
All of this is already understood by the Vedic Indians, this allows for lens devices
(darpana yantras) that are actually talked about in the Vyaamanika Shastra. These
devices could be telescopes, lasers, hologram projectors, microscopes, spectrometers
and solar cells(talked about in various vedic literature)
Radiation Spectrometer: This is quite a novel spectrometer, its ancient name is,
Dwanata Pramkar yantra, and you have never seen anything like it before. It is an
astronomical instrument, that splits light rays with prisms into its components, due to
dispersion of particles. It is analogue and measures all kinds of radiation of various
wavelengths, based on the spectral deviation from a Vedic preset universal minimum
deviation setting, which is a new concept for modern times which causes a reading of
spectral lines on a dial, which is indexed with table which has the various readings for
various kinds of radiation. The Amsu Bodhini is a cosmological text that deals with
the evolution of the universe. It teaches that the evolution of the universes are caused
by bindu vishput/maha vishput(big bang) which causes the solar systems and the suns(
There are 5 types of spectrometers to measure radiation, the one we are discussing is a
optical instrument and radiation is categorized into 3 types: infrared, visible and
ultraviolet. If we recall, the maha vishput is also talked about in the Rig Veda.
Electromagnetic radiation is explained as frequency of the vibration and movement of
high velocity positrons(anti electrons) and electrons and causes the three gunas, which
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here are defined as infrared, visible and ultraviolet. Now, that is interesting as it
relates the cause of various kind of radiations to be simply the vibrations and
movements of electrons and positrons, further still, electrons and positrons
would annihilate each other, and produce pure energy i.e radiation.
It would therefore mean that the Vedas are telling us that energy is simply the constant
annihilation of particles and antiparticles. This would perhaps explain the state of the
quantum vacuum and virtual particles, that are constantly fluctuating in and out of
existence, in effect they are colliding with anti-particles and being annihilated,
therefore the resultant is always zero. However, what we perceive to be
zero, is actually space-energy.
This concept of the universe being in a state of perpetual annihilation is depicted
by Shivas cosmic dance.
This is also consistent with vaiseshika Sutra view of all manifestations of nature,
space, time, plasma, energy, matter is simply vibrations of particles(which are turn
cause by vibrations of a superforce)
Summary of the Dwanata Pramkar Yantra: In the Yantra Saraswana there are 109
different machines, that are composed of 32 different components. Our spectrometer
is composed of 13 components:
The components are prisms, windows, lens and various kinds of materials, they all
have been fabricated from the metallurgical and chemical formulas given in the text.
One such component, is a highly sensitive and transparent infrared glass, which is
completely resistant to moisture. The refraction of the light is measured in ancient
Vedic angle units, called kakshay(1 kakshay = 104 radian) and the action and motion
of particles dispersed are counted. The data is analysed according to the mathematics
of the deviations from the universal minimum deviation setting, for which a simple
mathematics formula has been obtained.
Directions on building the device:
Note: The units that are used are angula (finger) and karmac. I am not sure what their
equivalent is, but I estimate it as 1 finger = 2cm and 1 karmac = 1mm.

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First and foremost. Make a 120 * 120 finger elipse from a mirror like glass of
106 karmac(mm) which will form the base. In the centre draw lines like a a 24
hour clock and two circles on both sides of it and making sections on it like a
dial.

::

After that, with a stony glass, make a 4 finger radius and 72 finger height pole
and place it in the center of the base. Then from the start of the pole to the end,
at 1212 finger distance apart make three holes, so that they will correspond to
the electrical wiring to the sides. This is also called the principal
pillar.

After that, make three holes on both sides and from principal pillar at 1010
finger distance, make a 60(4) finger height pole(from the same stony glass) so
that it corresponds to the first hole. Then make an 88 distance from that at 50(5)
finger height and finally at 66 distance make a 40 finger height pole(6). Fix
these tightly. Then do the same with the right side, except make them slightly
longer. The top of all the poles will have a chain and axlemechanism.

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After that, 3030 lines on both sides make a 50 finger radius circular glass plate.
On this, a 80 Surya Prism will be placed(a collminating lens) put in the third
hole on the right(top) in such a manner, the corresponding pole on the right can
turn it at 3 revolutions per cycle.

:
:

Make a 24 finger radius glass wheel of 206 karmac, on which CAOH and
phosphoric acid ray absorbing prism will be placed. Join this to the
corresponding chain and axle mechanism on the
left.

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After that, with the Ushmapakshika material made of Madhuvaran, make a

circular plate of 6 finger less radius, inscribed with points and indicators, so
that two cavaties form on both sides of the plate. In the first cavaity place the
164 karmac infrared sensitive glass. Join this to the corresponding chain and
axle mechanism on the right.
:

After that, points, lines and indictators that have been made on a 173 karmac
dhoom colour circular glass plate, on which is placed a 214 karmac lens
suitable for ultraviolet radiation. Join this to the corresponding chain and axle
mechanism on the left. When exposed to sun light, it will tell us about the
ultraviolet radiation, according to the graduations.

:
After that, a caliberated 96 karmac glass circular wheel, will be joined by a 42
karmac prism. Join this to the corresponding chain and axle mechanis, on the
right.
:

:
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The above special lens that was made of 96 karmac on which graduations were
made, on which a 9 karmac prism is seated. Join this to the first hole and
corresponding rope axle mechanism. The reflective quality of the special lens,
will cause the rays of the light to be mapped. ::

After that, on the base an ultraviolet-visible differentiating glass display panel

is made so that it can collect the projections on both sides of the wheels.
:


:

:
The mechanism of how it works:
When the rays of light enters the top wheel, on which is a collimation lens. By that,
the rays coming
from through the lens enter the conical prism on the wheel underneath and continues
cascading
downwards to component 2, which leaves a projection of a spectral ring, which can be
measured
technically on the dials on the base. A reference table is given in the Amdu Bodhina
for various radiation types, with technical names and radiation spectral kakshaya
count(kakshaya units are vedic angle units):

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Science is based on building blocks. There is yet another form of knowledge, that we
sometimes call inspiration, intuition or revelations, that is not understood and in which
parapsychological terms is called accessing a greater field of information and in vedic
terms is called accessing the Akashic records. That is that all knowledge is actually
part of a universal field of information, which is where the Vedas have said to have
originated. Einstein theory of relativity was one such revelation. Einstein himself said
that this all came to him in an instant and came about from his imagination (rightbrain). His asking questions like riding a beam of light to the past lead to relativity:
I sometimes feel I am right, but do not know it. When two expeditions of scientists
went to test my theory I was convinced they would confirm my theory. I wasnt
surprised when the results confirmed my intuition, but I would have been surprised
had I been wrong. Im enough of an artist to draw freely on my imagination, which I
think is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles
the world.
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For Newton, an apple falling on his head or so the story goes was a revelation of the
laws of gravitation. Again, this was a moment of inspiration. Nobody knows how it
happened how
an apple falling on his head would make him understand gravity; but it did.
Arguably the greatest mathematician in modern history and without whom string
theory would not be possible, who formulated modular functions, but did not provide
the proofs(an old Indian trait) said he learnt all his maths from a goddess who told him
in his dreams.
In fact, the discovery of the structure of the molecule Benzene, came to its founder,
Friedrich August von Kekule, in a dream, where he saw it as a coiled snake biting its
own tail:
I turned my chair to the fire [after having worked on the problem for some time] and
dozed. Again the atoms were gamboling before my eyes. This time the smaller groups
kept modestly to the background. My mental eye, rendered more acute by repeated
vision of this kind, could not distinguish larger structures, of manifold conformation;
long rows, sometimes more closely fitted together; all twining and twisting in
snakelike motion. But look! What was that? One of the snakes had seized hold of its
own tail, and the form whirled mockingly before my eyes. As if by a flash of lighting I
awoke Let us learn to dream, gentlemen.
Even Archimedes Eureka moment, was not by cold logical thinking, but a flash of
insight, so wonderful was that moment, he lept out naked onto the streets.
So you see, there is thinking and then there is knowing, and wouldnt you agree,
knowing is more powerful than thinking. The logical mind is limited by structure,
beliefs, preconceptions, rigid patterns and a cloud of thoughts. The right-mind is
unlimited.
Its directly from the mind of the universe or god, which is the source of
consciousness, however some of you do not believe this, and therefore I can only say
that you dont know where it comes from because if we did we would understand
consciousness.

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There is so much that happens to us in our life synchronistic events they usually have
something very relevant for us. Sometimes, the right person comes along, sometime
the clouds form in such ways that we see messages, sometimes a single fortune
cookie, could bear a message that means a lot to us, and only to us, and we get a sense
of knowingness. It is this knowingness that is mysterious well
at least for you.

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