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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN
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PROCEEDINGS
OF
THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE
WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA
TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE.
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---------OFFICIAL REPORT
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Monday, August 5. 1974.
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The Special Committee of the Whole House of the

National Assembly of Pakistan met in Camera in the
Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at
ten of the clock, in the morning. Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada
Farooq Ali) in the Chair.
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
PROCEDURE OF CROSS EXAMINATION
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Mr. Chairman: I think we will start just with in 5

minutes. The Attorney General is busy in my chamber
discussing the question with Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari
and he will be here with in two or three minutes.
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And again I will request the honourable members
that in the presence of the delegation and in the presence of
the witnesses, no controversial issues should be raised. The
Attorney General may be allowed to put the questions, and if
any honourable member is not satisfied with the question or
he thinks that the answer is evasive, he can send a chit to me
or to the Attorney General and if something of a very
important nature comes to the notice of any honourable
member, he can make a request and we can adjourn the
House for five or ten minutes. We can ask the witness to
wait outside and we can discuss the matter among ourselve.
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for two hours or for one day, let him be allowed to have a
free hand in cross-examination, and if the honourable
members feel that something is missing or lacking, they can
guide him and instruct him. Mr. Attorney General, have you
3
anything to say? Have you anything to add?
YZ Should we
call the witness? One thing also. I will request that during
the cross-examination the quorum may be kept 10 from this
side and 30 from that side. The honourable members can
come and go but the quorum may be kept intact.
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I will request the honourable members to be in their
seats. Can come nearer, to the unoccupied seats according
to their choice. If they want to sit where they are, it is up to
them.
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(The delegation entered the Chamber)
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---------OATH TAKING BY WITNESS OF
THE QADIANI GROUP
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Mr. Chairman: Now we will start the proceedings.

I will request the witness to take the oath.
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METHOD OF RECORDING THE

CROSS-EXAMINATION
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney General. For

the reporters for every question and answer there should be
a separate sheet. Yes.
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Rana Muham m ad Hanif Khan:
The
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General can keep on sitting, that will be much better.
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Rana Muhammad Hanif Khan: He might face
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Mr. Chairman: It is up to him. It is up to the
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make a statement while sitting.
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Rana Muhammad Hanif Khan: That is why. It
is up to him.
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Mr. Chairman: It is up to him
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CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI

GROUP DELEGATION
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General of

Pakistan): Mirza Sahib, I would be asking you certain
questions, but if you find that you don't want to answer any
question or you cannot answer any question......
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Mr. Chairman:
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
Will you .....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
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The member can use the
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will be asking you certain

questions. If you find that you cannot answer these
questions or any one of them or you do not want to answer
that question, you are not bound to do so. But you will
appreciate that the Special Committee will draw such
5
inference as it considers appropriate from your refusal to

answer any particular question. That inference may be
favourable to your cause or may be adverse. If you are not
in a position to answer any question straightaway, You may
ask the Committee for time; and if it so considers, it will give
you time to answer the question.
Now, Sir, will you tell us who was the founder of the
Ahmedia Movement?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please give us the
brief account of his life? When I say brief account of his
life, I mean when was he born? Where he was born? What
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was his education, the family background and the date of

his death and place of his death?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are Mirza Ghulam

Ahmad's grandson?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: His son's son?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: His son's son.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please give us

some brief account of your life, your education, your date of
birth? Because the whole record is being prepared, that's
why I am asking?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, you hold the

office of Imam of Jamaat-e-Ahmadia?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you are also the third

Caliph of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you are also called
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, will you tell us
the different duties that you discharge or functions that you
perform or powers that you exercise in these various
capacities as Imam, as Khalifa and Amir? Or is it the same
function?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Same function.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In all the offices?
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these three different offices?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has to be the same
person. And now, Sir, this Jamaat-e- Ahmadia, is it a body

different and distinct from Ahmadia Movement or is it some
controlling organisation within the Movement?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You mean the people who
belong to Lahore Group?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; people who belong to
the Lahore Group or scattered individuals sometimes, who

don't take 'baiat' but they call themselves Ahmedi?
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'baiat' is a member of Jamaat-e-Ahmedia?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you said, Sir, that you
are elected to this office. Who elects you, who elects the
Imam?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By an electoral college.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is an electoral college.

Will you please kindly tell us the composition or the number
of that electoral college?
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And Mirza Sahib, most of these members are
nominated by somebody else or they are elected by different
groups in districts or different areas?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These who come from the
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And is it correct that all the
members of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's family are ex-officio
members of this electoral college?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nearer excludes the farther
away.
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This office, is it for lifetime? ! Y YZ :g [
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is for life.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And where you were

elected, was there any other candidate who contested against
you? Or normally the election is unanimous?
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The election is
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Somebody contested
against you?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are the rules or
conventions under which the selection is held in this
manner?
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Canvassing is not allowed!
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, is there any

provision in these rules or conventions for the removal of
the Imam or Khalifa from his office?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, but the Khalifa is after
all a human being, according to you even if he is elected by
divine intervention?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is a human being who
leaves this world any moment if God so wills.
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( Y7gzm)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is true. But

supposing he gots mentally or physically incapacitated, he
can fall ill, is there any rule?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He cannot fall ill?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you for
clarification. The Khalifa cannot fall ill physically?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; To that extent.
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Incapacitation of........
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing he gets
pasalysed bodily or physically or mentally?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Bodily yes, but mentally no.
( 7,
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He can never suffer from

any mental illness?
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Sir, is there any other body or organization within
the Jamat which can revise or modify or alter any order or
decision of the Khalifa or Imam?
*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I know that. But
Khalifa ~]gzx, after consultation, his order is final or...?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am just asking
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you.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Legal position. If you pass

an order after consultation or without consultation with
your colleagues or with...?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question is a very
simple one. Can they overrule you or can you overrule them,
legally speaking? In fact whatever may be the position, we
are not concerned.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They can't overrule me.
(h
M7}{z :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you can overrule them?
( ?h
MZgyZ\ M1 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the question of my

overruling them does not arise in the context I have just told
you.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you can overrule them?
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And they don't overrule me.
15
( D7}{zgzZ )
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Sir, what is the significance of these three different

titles "Imam", "Khalifa" and "Amirul Momineen"? How
you or your Jamaat interpret them?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but you said that you
are Imam of the Jamaat.
( )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you have not yourself
chosen the title of Imam? They call you?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! No, no, they call me....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...... out of respect?
( ? ]' :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And when they call you
Amir-ul-Momineen, what is the meaning of
Amir-ul-Momineen, that you are the Amir of all the
momins?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Amir-e-Ahmadis?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ! V; ! V; But belonging to
your school of thought. So, according to you, momins are ....
if I put it this way .... only these who belong to your school
of thought, those Ahmadis?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only those of the momins

who belong to our thought ....
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c s Z% )
(p
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "of the momins".... not all?
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szW ZzZ
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I want you to
clarify.
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!! V ;V ;V; :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't pretend to be the
Amir of all the Muslims?
( ?7ZV x \ M :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! No, no, no. Not all the
momins.
( 7x ! 7! 7! 7{zZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Momins" means muslims,

isn't it?
( ? 7(Z Hy :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, is Jamaat-e-Ahmadia a
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purely religious organisation?
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: Purely a religio us
organisation.
( Î{ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Purely a religious

organisation. What are the functions that this organisation
performs, I mean, for propagation of Islam, according to
your concept of Islam?
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&xsZ 9~T7 Z%{ *

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(,
6g~) Naturally. X V
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the main function?
( ? x ~ C
t :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; that is the main
function
(x ) Corollary ~uz V._kZgzZ ( x ~ C

t)
x Z xs ZY *
*M
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*: ~igz s ~ x Z ] *y M X
X , qz VgzZM
,
FXjz
yut \Z.
}
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, when you convert these
people, you establish missions for this purpose all over the
world?
*\ M D ~<6 Vy Z\ M #
Z :g [ )
( ?DunkZ~
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Practically.
(,
6gi :Z*
* Zi%)
( D \ M *
c zZ )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now can you give us an

idea as to how many, on the average, every year or every
week, every month, you convert to your faith?
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( *
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A hundred and sixty eight thousand were Ahmadis, ~ 7*
0
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Too busy?
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( (C i Zz M :Z*
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c isxsZC*
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0 w
X g
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Could you please tell us,
how many have been converted in Pakistan in the past 20
years or so?
( *
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In Pakistan?
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0 :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am not asking the
population. I may come to that the converts?
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f 4 vbkZX e
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, do you take interest or
your party, I mean, in politics also or you keep away from
politics?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Thanks God, no.
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} ! 7 :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't take any interest?
( ?e
f7p \ W :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We don't take any interest.
X e *
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f7p :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As a Jamaat I am asking.
( ?)
)V; gb 7t~ :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; As a Jamaat 'Zg
( 'Zg )
)! V ; :Z*
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21
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everybody is a voter, they
can contest election. I know that. But as a Jamaat?
1X V} Y~tX h
M$Z {zX,
RzzC :g [ )
( ?)
)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As a Jamaat ....
( ')
) :Z*
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f7z~
()
) )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As a Jamaat, you don't

participate in politics?
( ?e
f7z~
(\ W)
) :g [ )
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! :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, can politics be
separated from religion in Islam?
(?YYHZ.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In an individual's life, no.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But as a collective body,

muslim body, it can be?
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It depends on what type of that organisation is.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, I will put it more
bluntly, Sir. Is Khalifa in Islam not also head of the State,
Head of the Government, in Islam?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. No President,
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As an organisation you
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record.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, according to you,
religion is a matter of heart and conscience?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And it's a relationship of a

spiritual nature between Imam and his Creater?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Sir.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am referring ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But will you agree, Sir, that
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conscience, that is, what your feel, what you think, what you
believe, what your faith as, something nobody can interfere
with?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In your thinking, you are

free; you can have any faith, you are free; you can believe
anything you want, you are free; but this faith, this belief,
this thinking has some outward expression also?
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faith, when you say it, when you announce it or when you
proclaim it, it is likely to affect others also, it is likely to have
repurcussions also. But when it is only confined to thinking
believing, feeling, it doesn't. It is so or not?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very vague question. I am
afraid.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will elaborate my question
further.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, this is not just that.
I will put it very simply now. Every religion has got
ceremonies, every religion has got rituals ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A religion has a ritual that
you can sacrifice a lamb?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Religion is affected also by
you expressing your faith, isn't it?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want to know that religion
has also an outward expression which can affect other
things, people, situations. It is not just a matter of heart and
conscience. It remains a matter of heart and conscience only
if you think, if you believe, if you have a faith; but the
moment you give an expression to that faith, that belief, you
are likely to hurt somebody, you are likely to affect
somebody, you are likely to favour somebody?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why you say this?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 'Likely to hurt somebody'
why likely to hurt somebody?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming. You know,
Sir, I am not referring anything to you, to what you said.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just discussing

religion because ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am trying to eleborate.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you said that

religion is something in which nobody should interfere. You
asked this Assembly that it should not involve itself in this, it
is a matter of heart and conscience. You said that this a
human right, a fundamental right.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did I say that?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will come to that. I am

just ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I think I said that our
constitution says it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I am relying on
human rights. I said declaration of human rights.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you said you rely on
that ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Declaration of human
rights in the Constitution of Pakistan.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .......... That everybody has a

right to have his religion, to profess, to practice and to
propagate ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I was going to ask

you if you profess, that again is a vague word. To profess
means that you think and believe and have faith and have
feelings about your religion, about Allah Almighty, about
who is a Prophet and who is not. So long as it is confined to
thinking, nobody can interfere, it is impossible. Thinking,
thank God, nobody can interfere with. But action, when
those feelings and thinkings and beliefs are put into action
or translated into action by words of mouth or other action,
then is it still free? Do you still have the freedom to do
whatever you want?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To express our faith.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To express, to propagate?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To express our faith.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, practice, I will say, use

the word practice.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, if I follow the Holy
Quran strictly, in any part of the world, you think, I will not
commit any offence?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I should not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing I want to marry

two/three wives in America ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just asking you. Will
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they arrest me or not?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not compulsory.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To have many wives?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not compulsory.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I will give you another

instance, Sir. You are a highly educated person. You know
there is a Church call Mormon Church?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I know .......
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And under their religion,

their Chrisianity or their sect, ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They can have not ....
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Mr. Ya hya B ak htia r: .. .. it is no t o nly

permissible....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... but obilgatory for a
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person, if the circumstances permit, to practice polygamy.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, that is the freedom of

religion. Will they allow him in America to marry?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they don't allow it, they
shouldn't do it or leave America.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but that is part of my

faith; I am a Mormon Christian, it is a part of my faith; I
want to practise my religion. Why should the American
State, which bows for freedom of religion, interfere and put
me in jail?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: , z I will come to this

again. Now I come to the Preliminary stage.
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Now Sir, will you tell the Special Committee as to

how many members belong to Jamaat-e-Ahmadia or your
29
school of thought of the Ahmadia Movement throughout

the world?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Throughout the world?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And how many of them are
in Pakistan?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: At the time of the death of
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, what was the number of Ahmadis?
Have you any idea?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to 1901 Census
Report, there were about 1800. Is it correct?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, this is very
confusing because I have been looking through various
figures. It seems that in 1908, at the time of Mirza Sahib's
death, the number given was 19000.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Census report?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is a document, a

book published by the Foreign Office of the British
Government in 1920 in their Registry Office. They have
given that at the death of the founder.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: V; I am just saying
30
because it may be wrong; I am not ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1908, the sect, which at
that time did not exceed 19000, has split up into two rival
parties and appear to be declining in number.... whether
your faction or the other faction, I do not know.... but this is
what the British Government's certificate is. Then, Sir, in.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But this is not for the first
time that the British Government is misinformed.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no; that is possible; I
am not saying, I am just asking. You know better figure. But

there is a statement by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud
Ahmad in "Ahmadiyyat or the True Islam", published in
1959, wherein it is stated that at the time of his death, which
occurred in 1908, his followers could be counted by
hundreds or thousands.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The census figure,
however, of 1908 shows that there were only 18000.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then the census figure
of 1921 shows that there were only 30,000. 1931 figure

shows that they were 56000.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Fifty-six?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And this is confirmed by
Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud in an address which
appeared in "Al-Fazal" of 5th August, 1934, which says
that:
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean he referred to it. He
doesn't say here that this is a wrong figure. I am just saying.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but he mentioned ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... it by the way that it was

56000.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, then after that we come
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
to Munir. I say "Munir Enquiry Court Report" because you

know what I am referring to.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was a disturbance in
the Punjab in 1953.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And a court of enquiry was

set up. There the figure given by your Jamaat, it seems, it is
stated, was two lacs or two hundred thousand?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Pakistan. And now, I think
you have either ignored the population planning scheme or
something like that you have suddenly jumped to 30 lacs ...
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... or 40 lacs; or have there
been so many converts?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am not referring
to the Census Report.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The figure given by you to
Mr. Justice Munir, your Jamaat ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... was 2 lacs in 1954. Then
Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1960 Edition ....
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I think no, not Lahore wali. I think it is published in

Holland.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think page 10.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 10.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Encyclopaedia of
Islam says that the figure of Ahmadis as given by them'
this is 1960 Edition; may be a year or two before the figure
was given.... is half a million throughout the world, out of
whom half are in Pakistan, that is, about two lacs.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am just saying
because there is some confusion about the figures and
members.
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"It is stated to me" not by whom.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is not clear. So, we
presume that perhaps the party concerned may have stated. I
would not accept Ahraris word for it.
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: No , no . Perha ps
somebody else.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but the Encyclopaedia

clearly says that it was stated there by Ahmadis. That may be
wrong but ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say half a million
throughout the world ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... And at least half of them
are in Pakistan.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, to cut it short, if I
say that the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan is not more
than two hundred thousand, you cannot contradict me
through any document?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am asking you ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But can you suggest, can

35
you contradict me through documentary evidence, record,

your own Jamaat's record?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. I rely on Munir
Enquiry Report, that is the document. So you are not

contradicting it?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Encylopaedia of Islam?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nothing is official. Mirza
Sahib. If you bring your register, I am going to accept that.
There is no question of official. We are not going to
distribute property of members of any particular seat.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just wanted to come at a
right number. I said if you could come to a right number of

the Ahmadis?
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': Census 9Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you yourself are
not sure. If you had been sure ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not sure. No, I am not

sure.
36
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... I would have accepted
your word that they are three million.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you yourself are not

sure.
Now, Sir, I come to your address which you
delivered on the 21st of June, Friday 21st June which is
Annexture 2 ...... ( 2;)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... interpreted freedom of
religion.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is very well written
and I think, there is no mistake as far as language is
concerned. You can correct it now. I am not going into
detail of any word, but generally you have said that everyone
has a right to say what his religion is. That is the first
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
observation you made.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is this. Then, Sir, you
say, I quote: "Religious freeedom therefore means that

everyone is free to specify his religion and no power, no
Government can interfere with the exercise of that right".
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is on page:14. Then,
Sir, you further go and say "I proclaim that I am a muslim
....."
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ".... who can have the right
to say that I am not a Muslim? This would be utterly

foolish". This is on page:14. Have I quoted you correctly,
Sir?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I have written it

down from here. Then, Sir, having asserted your right of
freedom of religion in terms mentioned just now. You have
raised a preliminary objection with regard to the competence
of the National Assembly or Parliament to declare as to who
is a Muslim and who is not a Muslim. You raised this object
in your Mahzar Namah.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, what is the Law,
the rule the provision of Constitution, on the basis of which
you objected to the jurisdiction of the National Assembly of
Parliament ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... You rely on?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I rely on clauses:8 and 20.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Article 8 and Article 20.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you have also referred
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to the Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Universal Declaration of

Human Rights .... that dates from 1948 ....
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Human Rights.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I will not go into
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greater detail.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask a very simple

question. Is the Parliament competent to amend Article:8
and Article:20?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, by two-thirds majority
they can amend; through a particular procedure they can
amend. I am not saying .... I am coming to that .... but I am
just suggesting a simple proposition.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They should not do it, that
is different, but I am just saying, is the Parliament not

competent to repeal Article:8 altogether and Article:20
altogethter?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I wanted to
know.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They could do it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I appreciate that they

should not do it, they ought not to do it; that is different. But
they are legally competent to do it, to repeal Article:20 and
to repeal Article:8. or any other provision?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With that I agree.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those are of political
nature, religious nature, but not of consitutional nature.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now I come back to

your address. I am not going to quote a lot from it because
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this is very important from my point of view to clarify the

position. In your address, the same address, Sir, on page:12,
you say:
"The Constitution of Pakistan in which our Prime
Minister takes great pride and which according to his
declaration, establishes for Pakistan a high position in the
eyes of the world and augments its respect and honour
provided in Article:20 as follows:
"(a)
Every citizen shall have the right to profess,
practise and propagate his religion, and

(b)
Every religious denomination and every sect
thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and

manage its religious institutions."
(Page:12)
After tha t you referred to the p ag es o f the
Constitution from where you have quoted. Now, here I may
respectfully ask you, Sir, have you reproduced the whole of
the Article or have you forgotten part of this Article?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am grateful. That part ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Subject to Law and

morality."
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. That means that

freedom of religion is subject to law, public order and
morality. That part is conceded then?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Of course, it is there.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Therefore, you take it for

granted. That is why you did not mention it. But then, Sir,
yo u p roceed further and yo u sa y in yo ur a dd ress
immediately after what I have quoted just now:
"In other words this constitution which is a source
of pride for us, guarantees to every citizen of Pakistan his
religion, that is to say the religion which he and not. Mr.
Bhutto or Mufti Mahmood or Mr. Moudoodi .... chooses for
himself. Whatever religion a citizen chooses, that is his
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religion, and he can announce it, this constitution gives

him the right to announce whether he is Muslim or not, and
if he announces that he is a Muslim then this Constitution,
of which the People's Party is proud and of which we are
also proud because of this Article, gurantees to every citizen
to announce that being a Muslim, he is a Wahabi or
Ahl-e-Hadis, or Ahl-e-Quran or Bralvi or Ahmadi. This is
the meaning of religious freedom".
I unquote, Sir.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To my mind ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I am just asking

whether I am quoting you correctly?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not going to ask you
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questions because first we finish with quotations and then I

will ask you questions.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Sir, you further
say: "Today, the meaning of religious freedom is that every

man has a right to decide for himself whether he is a
Muslim or not, whether he is a Christian or not, whether he
is a Jew or not, or whether he is a Hindu or not, whether he
is a Budhist or not, whether he is an a-theist or not. It is for
each individual to say which religion he belongs to and no
power on earth and not all the powers of the world
combined can deprive him of this right."
So, Sir, according to you this right, the way you have
put it ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... is inalienable.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... is absolute, unrestricted,

unqualified, unconditional; no power on earth can interfere.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, you have used the
words in the speach and I pointedly draw your attention to
them; they are:
"He has the right to say, to specify, to proclaim, to
decide, to announce ...."
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One might agree with or not. X s
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, as I said before ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that he ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you profess something;

if you think you are a Muslim, if you believe you are a
Muslim. Nobody can .....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am submitting that if you
announce, then that means either a speech is called for as
you write ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I means some action ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Expression of one's belief.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... one's belief so that ....

44
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not practice on it.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When belief is expressed,
even there you claim, to this extent, I mean ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that there should be no
interference by the State ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To my mind.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... or any body?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, if anybody declares

that he is a Muslim, a Christian, a Budhist, no one should
question his announcement or declaration?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... is authorised or

empowered to question that. His word should be accepted
for this.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but Sir, there are some
further complications in my mind.
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that.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing a person

knowingly, with ulterior motive, for some material gain,
falsely declares that he is a Christian when in fact he is not,
or he is a Muslim when in fact he is not ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... do you still think that ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How we are going to find
out that he is a hypocrite?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if we can find out, then
we can interfere. If he falsely does it?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am just asking

you that if I personally know a person that he is a Muslim,
but for some worldly gain ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... for some advantage ....
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should not interfere because he has announced it? That is

his freedom?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know him personally.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, I am not giving the

example. Sir, of a man who is about to be killed and to save
his life, he says, "I am a Muslim" or "I am a Christian" or
supposing a religions fanatic is going to kill some one
because he does not belong to his faith ....
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am not taking that example.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not taking the
case of even that person who, in order to save his life, makes
a false declaration. Suppose he is a Christian ....
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example. But I am just ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is one of the very

extreme examples in this case.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but there, Sir, if a
person has to save his life, it is permissible to tell a lie to

save his life, I think?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't think.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, i don't know, Some
time you sacrifice the truth in the very interest of truth. If a
man is innocent and somebody is going to kill him just
because he does not belong to his faith, and I say no he is
not that belongs to that caste or to that religion. It happened
near Khuzdar. There was a policeman, near about 1965 or
that time, there was a policeman travelling in a bus and
some of those people, travelling people, got hold of that bus
along with others. The policeman was not in uniform but
they found the uniform packed up in the bus. The policeman
and other people were taken away with the intention to kill
them. One of the Maulvis there who khew that this man was
a policeman, took oath on Quran and said, "I know that he
is not a policeman" to save his life. Do you think that man
committed a crime by telling a lie?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just saying this that
some time one may do it. But I am not taking these

examples. Sir, I am going to come to earth and take very
simple example.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, supposing, as we

have a lot of difficulties in getting admission in college these
days. You khow that, so we take a medical College for
instance Dow Medical College, Karachi, has got 200 seats.
Now there are about a thousand Muslim boys, all first
divisions, contesting for these 200 seats. But out of them, 10
are reserved for Minorities, Christians, Hindus, Parsis. Out
of 10, say 6 are reserved for Hindus, 3 are also one First
Divisioners, so they contest among themselves; 3 are
reserved for Christians, one for parsi. There is also First
Divisioners Parsi and he will go and take that seat. Now,
among the Christians, there are 6/7 candidates and there are
3 seats but there is only one Second Divisioner Christian
and the rest are Third Divisioners. Now I want to get into
that college. I have got a First Division, but not a very high
First Division. If I put it in my admission from: "Yahya
Bakhtiar ---- Christian", now you think the Principal of the
college, knowing very well, should not interfere.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have got no right to
declare your Christianity.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have no right but I am
deceiving, I am cheating, I am falsely declaring that what I
say, because I know that this is a fundamental right and
nobody on earth can interfere and why should I not take
advantage? Do you think the world is not full of thieves?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking ....
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Mr. Chairman: No, no the proposition has been
put by the lawyer and the witness has to reply to that
proposition. He may agree or he may not agree.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no question of
agreeeing; but I say you know that there are cheats in this
world and you know that people cheat and you know that
people deceive.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, 'condemn' is one thing,

Sir, but if you are invested with some authority, you are the
Principal of a college, and you have been the Principal of a
College and when the form comes to you, and you know that
Yahya Bakhtiar, First Division, cannot get in because his
marks are low among the First Divisioners, but he says that
he is a Christian, now I can't question his faith, this is his
fundamental right, Article 20 guarantees it, so, therefore, he
has to be admitted, Sir?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you this.
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Sir, Shall we have a break? In the meanwhile ....
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, after about five minutes we
will have a break.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I .....
Mr. Chairman: Let the answer to this question
come. It is a question of opinion. The witness has to give his

opinion, Yes or no.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just some expression. A
man deliberately, falsely makes a declaration for material

gains.
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Mr. Chairman: What would be the opinion of the
witness regarding this proposition?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You need not answer this
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question at all.
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Mr. Chairman: It is up to you; it's up to you.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't approve of that

man?
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Mr. Chairman: No.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't approve of that man.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you still think that the

state ......
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, but I am just

asking you.
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of the college, what expression you will give to your

condemnation on the paper?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, you are very fortunate,
But I am asking you, supposing I am the Principal and
someone comes like me, then what shall I do?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I am asking you that I
am the Principal of Dow Medical College and I know a
particular boy is Muslim, and wants to get into the College
and deprive a Christian of his legitimate right, a reserved
seat. On the one hand he is telling a lie, on the other hand
he is depriving a Christian of his seat. But you say that this
is his fundamental right, because he is ........
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Mr. Chairman: The delegation is permitted to
leave for 15 minutes. We will again meet ....
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A Member: 15 minutes?
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Mr. Chairman: But the honourable members may

keep sitting. At 12-15, the Delegation is expected to come
back in the Assembly. The honourable member may keep
sitting.
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(The delegation left the chamber)
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Mr. Chairman: I would request the honourable
members .... Mian Attaullah, just only for two minutes, just
for one minute. Give me time then I am going to take
52
recess. Saiyid Abbas Husain Shah Gardezi and Sardar

Aleem, just I wanted to say one thing. I wanted to thank the
honourable members. And this is my personal observation
.... Mr. Attorney- General, Maulana Zafar Ahmad, just one
minute. I think we are .... I am at least quite satisfied with
the method of Attorney- General. And we are grateful. Let it
be placed on record. And I think most of our problems are
over; and supplementary problems and everything will, of
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course, be taken up the way it is being conducted. I am, as a

lawyer, more than satisfied and I think this is the opinion of
the House. Thank you very much. We meet at 12:15. Thank
you very much.
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---------(The Special Committee adjourned for 15 minutes to
re-assemble at 12:15pm)
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---------{The Special Committee re-assembled after the break, Mr.
Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.}
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Mr. Chairman: I will request the honourable
members to be in their seats and we will proceed just when
the quorum is complete.
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Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad: has pointed out that there
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should not be appreciation by the Chair; so it may be

amended accordingly. The House is satisfied with the
conduct of the Attorney- General. Only this much should be
written, the rest should be deleted.
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.... Yes?
---------SUPPLY OF COPIES OF THE CROSS- SUPPLY

OF COPIES OF THE CROSS- EXAMINATION
Malik Mohammad Jafar: Sir, can I make a
53
submission?
Mr. Chairman: Yes, yes.

Malik Moham m ad Jafar: Sir, after this
cross-examination ....
Mr. Chairman: Yes.

Malik Mohammad Jafar: .... I assume that there
will be a debate and naturally that debate will be conducted
o n th e b a s i s o f t h e e x a m i n a t i o n i n c h ie f o r t he
cross-examination.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, correct.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: So, I think that the
copies of this statement ....
Mr. Chairman: Yes.

Malik Mohammad Jafar: .... should, as the
statement goes, ....
Mr. Chairman: Yes, I am looking ....

Malik Mohammad Jafar: .... should be prepared
so that they can study and ....
Mr. Chairman: I am looking in to the matter. So

far as the examination-in-chief is concerned, every member
has got the copy.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes. I am mentioning

the Cross- examination.
Mr. Chairman: Yes. For the Cross- examination.

I will have to make double arrangements. I will discuss this
matter with my Secretariat. Today, I will discuss it and I will
54
see that the entire record is available before the debate

opens. I think the debate will be after 20th.
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Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes.
Mr. Chairman: By that time we will prepare the
record.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes; and copies
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should be supplied.
Mr. Chairman: Copies of the Cross- examination.

(Interruption)
No, no, that has been decided by the Steering
Committee; the questions shall remain with the AttorneyGeneral.
Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: We should be

given a copy ....
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No, Sir, after writing, Sir, we should be given a copy
after you have finished.
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---------SUPPLEMENTARY QUESTION FOR CROSSEXAMINATION

Mr. Chairman: qZ YZ One thing I may also
point out.
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these may
be handed over to Mr.Aziz Bhatti and to Moulana Zafar

Ahmad Ansari, so that the Attorney- General is not
disturbed by the Chits. So during the break, the AttorneyGeneral will receive these questions and will examine them
55
and whatever possible course is adopted Attorney- General

will adopt.
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Yes. Sahibzada Safiullah.
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CORRECTION OF RECORD OF THE CROSSEXAMINATION
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Should I call the delegation.

Moulana Syed Mohammad Ali.
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Mr. Chairman: I think the method is being
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question.
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Mr. Chairman: They may be called. X By Z YZ
---------TIMINGS OF SITTINGS FOR THE CROSSEXAMINATION

Mr. Ch a irm an : W e w ill si t up to 1 :3 0 ...
(Interruption)....
?Y ! Y 10:30 to 11:30 in the morning
and then 12:30 to 1:30 and then from 6:00 to 7:15 and then
from 8:00 to 9:30.
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(The Delegation entered the Chamber)
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57
5th Aug, 1974 No:01
CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI

GROUP DELEGATION
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the Attorney- General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, you agree that a

Christian boy or girl, who has applied for admission to a
Medical College, should not be deprived of his right of
admission because of false declaration of a Muslim boy?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is an exceptional case
and exception can only prove the rules. They are not
converted into a general rules.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I request you, Sir, that if, in
such a case, the Principal finds that the declaration is false,

he should or should not interfere, he should or should not
question that?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If one is sure. And one
seldom is.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just I presume that the
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Principal is sure. Of course, if he is false, then the question

does not arise. If the Principal knows that the declaration is
false ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he is sure, then justice
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you agree?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But I am .... I agree with it.

but I want to add that such exceptions can only prove the
rule.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Sir, whether you call
it an exception or something which has happened quite

often, but you will kindly agree that this freedom to
announce ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In certain exceptional
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... this freedom to
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announce what one's religion is, is not absolute; there are

some qualification.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is absolute; and this
exception proves that it is absolute.
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There could be
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad:
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But even if exceptional,
what will be your ordered action? The court should interfere

when the court finds out? Supposing the Christian boy goes
and files a writ petition.
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: It dep end s o n the
discretion....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No question of discretion, if
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the evidence comes on the record that the boy, who applied
and pretends to be a Christian, is in fact a Muslim ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But if he ....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if he admits in the
court that I am a Muslim but nobody can question my right

to declare?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If we come to that extent,

my reply is in the negative.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even then we should not
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; Should not interfere.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Christian boy should
be deprived of his right?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. We should

not question his profession.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anybody can declare?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anybody can declare; and
that is enough in the ordinary circumstances of the case.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A court should not

interfere, the Government should not interfere, the Principal
sohould not interfere?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The example that is before
us is that he does not go to the court but goes to the

Principal.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing, as I
said, the boy files a writ petition in the High Court. The
Principal does not question, as you say it is his ritght.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the petition goes to the
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receives.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, will the judge be in a
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position to decide on evidence or should the declaration be

sufficient? He says, 'no'. He declares that is enough, that is
the fundamental right.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the evidence shows that
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then the judge would decide according to the evidence he
receives.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it means that if it is
false, the judge will interfere?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It means that the judge will
decide according to evidence he receives.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Then it means that the
judge has the right to interfere then. I am asking that in
settling the question of Principal---- can anybody interfere
in such a right?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well. I am afraid, what I
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comprehend and I might be wrong, that you are giving an

exceptional example, not the law.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will give you more
examples, but I am just clarifying the position as ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the case goes to the
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if he comes ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's the law.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, if he comes to the
conclusion that this declaration is false ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: If he comes to the
conclusion, then he decides according to his discretion; then

God will deal with him.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You think there should he

no law on the subject?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not a question of

law. This is a question of exception in a law.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, in all these forms
they say that: "I hereby declare that these facts given in the
form are correct and true to the best of my knowlege."
There is a sort of affidavit; complete declaration is given.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let us take another
example. If a person declares that he is a Muslim and
believes in five fundamentals of Islam, the "Arkan-i-Islam"
but he doesn't perform Haj even when he can possibly do
that, and he doesn't pay any Zakat, would you believe in the
profession?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will draw your
attention to a chapter in Muslim history. Those Muslims
who refused to pay Zakat- I mean Ansars and Muhajereen
both- and refused to pay, they were Munkrain of Zakat, were
they not deprived of their right to be called Muslims and
Jehad was ordered against them?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. There are two things,
let me clarify this; one thing is not to pay zakat, the other is
to declare that ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Munkareen, I said.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Munkareen?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes.

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Two things: one is zakat,
the other one is just the act, you know, doesn't pay.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 but ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I said

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denies it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not a rare case. It has
happened in the history.
63
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if he says it, he must
be sent to a mental hospital.
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I am giving you an extreme example. Supposing an
man says that: "I am a Muslim but I don't believe in the
Holy Prophet" ....
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I am not being disrespectful. I hope you will not
consider that I am being disrespectful. I have got all the
regard for you. I know you are defending a cause, and you
know I am performing a duty. But please see these are not
extreme examples. Sometimes we have to go to the extreme
to clarify the position.
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I am just asking you. If anybody denies one of the

essentials of Islam....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... can you declare him as a
non- Muslim?
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I would not take that example because you call it an
extreme example.
N o w , Sir , yo u k no w t ha t , in Sa ud i A ra b ia
non-Muslims are not allowed to visit the holy places ....
Mecca and Madina. Supposing a Jew in Holand or Belgium
is engaged by the Israeilies as their spy and then he makes a
declaration and obtains a passport that he is a Muslim. I
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don't think it will be an extreme example because people

have ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can his authority be

questioned?
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66
spy.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He would be arrested as a
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After enquiry?
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spy.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But the question does not

arise. Whether he is Muslim or not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am asking you a
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simple question, how will he be arrested? Somebody has to

enquire into the declaration whether it is ture or false.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When it is proved that he
entered the holy place, or that Government area, that Saudi

country, with the intention of spying on that country, when
it is proved, he would be arrested as a spy, not as a
non-Muslim.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will give you another
example. Supposing a Journalist out of curiosity, a
Christian out of curiosity to see what these Muslims are
doing there, he obtains a passport in which he makes a false
declaration that he is a Muslim, and wants to see Mecca and
Madina ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He would be arrested for
submitting a false declaration not as a non-Muslim.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who is going to question
that the declaration is false or not?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: False declaration.... not his
profession.... he would be arrested for submitting a false
declaration.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, the point is that

somebody can question his declaration if he says, "I am a
Muslim?"
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority concerned, of
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course.
67
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, then you agree that
some authority, is there who can question a declaration

about religion?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority which is
concerned with a man who submits a false declaration.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, of course.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is exactly what I say,
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Sir, that you agree that this right to announce what one's
religion is, or the declaration what one's religion is, is
subject to restriction?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is something else....
false declaration. To submit a false declaration, which is
proved by investigation by the authority competent to do
that, this is someting else.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. I will ask you
again. Sir, I think I have not made myself clear. Do you
agree that if a person makes a false declaration or any kind
of declaration, somebody else has an authority to examine it,
enquire into it, question it, about his religion? If I fill in a
form....
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but about his declaration.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in the declaration a

falsehood lies in the fact that he is not a Muslim and he says
that he is a Muslim.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority is concerned
with the declaration, not with his faith.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the authority is
concerned that no non-Muslim should get in there.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority is concerned
with the man who submits a false declaration.
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68
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, because he is not a
Muslim and he is entering.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whatever the case might be.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... we are least concerned.
He declares himself a Muslim, he declares that he
represents one of the very big firms who are doing some
construction work in Saudi Arabia; he can do this; he can
do that.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has to be questioned
about the declaration which he makes ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... which he makes to the
authority, not about the faith which he has got.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I put it in a different

language. If a person goes to Saudi Arabia, who in fact, is a
Christian or a Jew ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But how do you know?
( ?x\ M :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In fact, I said.

(zGtX Zg ~
:g [)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, ....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is presumed. So, when
....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: First you persume it. Then

you put that gentleman before a court.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I say that
it is presumed. It is a fact .... I am not talking personally of
doubtful cases .... It is a fact that a person is a Christian or a
Jew. But he says that since I have declared in my form that I
69
am a Muslim, nobody should question my declaration; this
is my human right.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the intention of
goings there? Spying?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not spying.
( 7Y7 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Curiosity?
( ?t :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Out of curiosity, sight

seeing. He knows that this is a very old and ancient religious
centre and he would like to see it. But he knows that except
Muslim nobody else is allowed ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that case a conducted

tour should be arranged to take him arround to see the old
places and satisfy his curiosity.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if he is not that all
important that is should be arranged, supposing he makes a
declaration of this sort, can U.N. Charter help him? Can he
say that the Charter gives him the right to declare himself as
a Muslim and nobody ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every Law, constitutional
of otherwise pre-supposes good intentions.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly. That is what I was
going to say. So you say that I announce I am a Muslim, I
decide I am a Muslim, I declare I am a Muslim? That
means that the declaration must be honest, must be
bonafide, must be made in good faith.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I declare that I dont't

submit any false declaration .....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... I am not telling lies, so
many declaration ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he makes a declaration

honestly, in good faith, only then a fundamental right is
given to him, not if he makes if falsely, with ulterior motive,
in bad faith, then the fundamental right is not for him. You
agree with this proposition?
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general proposition.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A declaration that "I am a

Muslim", I say, if I make it in good faith, if should be
accepted?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I make ....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I make it in good faith?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That means that I am
honest to God. That is what I mean by this that if I make
this in good faith, I am honest to God.
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the point.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They may or may not. But
here a Christian boy is deprived of his seat if we accept your

first proposition. But if we accept your second proposition,
wherein you say that it should be made honestly, then the
boy will not be deprived of his seat, but then the Principal
will interfere.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a person himself says?

Sir, I am taking this example.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a common fact you

know in our courts; quite a few people are sent to the
gallows without any murder committed by them,
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This is a daily thing. When boys get admission, they
get domicile certificates or a certificate of permanent
residence. I belong to Quetta. Now if I want .......
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now I tell you this thing
that this thing can never happen in America.... false
declaration to secure a seat in one of the educational
institutions.
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example. Now, if you think that degrading. For various

destricts, in these colleges, some quotas are fixed for
backward areas. Now Baluchistan has got about thirty seats
in the Dow Medical College. And if people belonging to
those areas get from the Deputy Commissioner the
certificate of permanent residence and they file a declaration
with it that. "I was born there and I am permanently settled
in that destrict." On the basis of that they apply for
admission. Now, supposing that he m akes a false
declaration.... and I can assure you Mirza Sahib there are
many of them....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....for a few rupees....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... and false certificate has

been issued to him ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: .... b y the D istrict
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....on the basis of his

declaration and oath he gets the certificate and he gets the
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We should condemn his
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So it means that on

evidence, if it is found false, the court can interfere?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is obvious.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, someone has to
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fact whether this person has made a false declaration or a
true declaration?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In some cases, yes.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I do not say in every

case. Normally it is not needed.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am sorry to
bother you because you raised a question of fundamental

right no.20 and the Constitution has got other fundamental
rights also.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now. Article 18 deals with
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freedom of trade, profession end it reads:

74
"Subject to such qualification, if any, as may be
prescribed by law, every citizen shall have the right to enter

upon any lawful profession or occupation and to conduct
any lawful trade or business."
Now, this is also one of the rights just like freedom
or religion, freedom of trade, profession and business.
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from ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just trying ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The fundamental?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... restrictions, some
qualification. They are not absolute. Now, Sir....
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75
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. That means they
are absolute ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, Sir, ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... because these exceptions
only prove that the rule, these exceptions you mentioned
here only, prove that the rule is absolute.
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are not qualified; a few hundred are qualified. Only
qualified can practise. So this is no exception to prove the
rule. This a very strict qualification ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... on medicine.

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... not quarrel over these
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trifles.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now the next point is

that the trade, it says, or business or profession is a any
lawful proession, occupation or to conduct any lawful trade
or business. Now, the trade and business is lawful to begin
with.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if I start smuggling, I

cannot say that this is my fundamental right?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, apart from that.... Sir,
I am going into a different field now.... even those trades

which are lawful are subject ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They have their own
moral code.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No under the law because

the law can make any trade legal or illegal. Now, selling of
soap or selling of cars or selling sweats, these are lawful
trades in our country at the moment. Now, Sir, you know
there is a well known company.... Lever Brothers. They sell
soap under the label of Lux, one of them sunlight.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now Sir, supposing I start

business and call myself.... because everybody is free to call
his business with any name, there is no restriction....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is another law. Under

the fundamental rights ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the fundamental rights
there is a restriction because this law.... the Constitution....

was framed for the honest people of Pakistan.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is understood, you

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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Supposing I say,
Sir, I start business and I call myself Lever Brothers and I

also produce soap and call it Lux soap, similar label, similar
wraping ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is?

77
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, I am asking this that we

should be very careful.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I am giving
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
you a concrete example.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if I start selling

soap in the name of Lever Brothers under their label....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They should.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what will the court

say? Change the label, change the label, change your name?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The court would decide on

the evidence.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Let us say Lever

Brothers are already there.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; if, the evidence proves
it, yes.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are a firm or
reputation for years. They have built up a reputation. That is
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their soap. You are trading in their name and, therefore, you
must change the label, you must change the name of your
firm, that they are registered. So, freedom or trade is limited
by many considerations that you can't usurp someone else's
right. You can't usurp someone else's trade.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if religion, say
christionity, is the monopoly of a certain group then no

other group ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... can have the label of

christianity.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am not insinuating

anything, please I am just dealing with the restrictions on
fundamental rights that, in principle, these rights are
restricted by Law.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By rational law.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Naturally. Law is suppose

to be rational. Till it is declared void by the Constitution or
the court .... it is suppose to be rational.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... it is supposed to be
rational.
Now, law can impose restrictions on the right of
tade, on the rights given in Article:20, that if a person ....
now I will take ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but that is their patent.

On that I say....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are supposing the
law....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as one's faith is

concerned, there is no group which has got monopoly of any
faith.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I have not come to

that. Yet I am just on the principle of restriction.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I am not. I have not
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this shape.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just asking that, on

principle, if a person takes advantage of somebody ....
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perfectly right, but these examples, to my mind.... I am very
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humble; don't claim that I am on right.... but, to my mind,

they are irrelevant.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are not irrelevant.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not relevant to the

question we are discussing here.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, this is for the

Committee. I can't say anything, but ......
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Mr. Chairman: It is for the Chair to decide
whether a question is relevant or irrelevant.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, it is for the Committee.

It is not for me or for you to say which is relevant and which
is not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, not for ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am a witness here.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this is for the
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Committee to decide whether this is relevant or not. But all I

wanted to know is whether the legislature can put
restrictions on the fundamental rights like this. If a person
falsely trades in someone's name.
Now, Sir, reverting back to freedom of religion
under Article:20, It says:
"Every citizen shall have the right to profess,
practise and propagate his religion."
Now, will you please tell us the forms of practice ....
no, not only of Islam; I am not talking of it .... generally
religions, what does it mean and how you profess and how
you practise in your mind?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: His practice is only
confined to prayers or it is more than that, some rituals are

also involved?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 Fundamental, from
82
the point of view of Fundamental Right? It is guaranteed in

the Indian Constitution in similar terms more or less.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Fundamental Right says
you can practise your religion in all the world.
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There is no clash in this case, in the example you
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Constitution says:
"Any lawful profession or trade."
Now, this was lawful when the fundamental rights
came into existence. Then the law was promulgated after
that ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then it was not lawful after
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The law, as Article:8 our

Article:8 says similar the Indian parallel Article says
Corresponding Article.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Any law which is in conflict
with ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let them solve their

problems, let us solve ours.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, we are concerned with

the freedom of religion all over the world. You have got
Ahmadis there also, you have to worry about their welfare.
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86
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have relief on
declaration of human rights because.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Universal Declaration of

Human Rights does not clash with the Mormans, to my
mind.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, a Morman says that it
is obligatory on me, my religion enjoins, it that if
circumstances permit ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have read their books.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... and the court said: "We
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send you to jail for five years of 7 years for bigamy, for
disrupting our society. We do not accept this much freedom
of religion." So, the state could interfere?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The state commits one
type of blunder that gentelman commits another type of

blunder.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I take another extreme

example, Sir. Supposing a Hindu lady at Noshki or
Tharparkar, in Pakistan, says that she want to observe their
old Hindu law .... satti .... and wants to burn herself with her
dead husband.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing that
we....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But there is no such law.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They used to parctise this.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, no, you cannot deny
that?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just sa ying,
supposing....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now by choose, you mean
to select one of the religions already existing' or you can
found and start a new religion also? Freedom of religion.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So he can start a new

religion also.... a person.
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new religion could be started by a person?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but they may not say

Atheism, they may say a new sect of Christians, for instance
they say. There are a hundred, two hundred and three sects,
Christian Sects, in America only.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I thought we were talking
religion....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... Now I find that we are

talking of sects in religion.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing somebody starts
a new sect in a religion ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... he also has the
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freedom?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am talking ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I have taken the

extreme example, that supposing, a group of Hippies in
Pakistan.... we have got a lost of Hippies these days .....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Of course, I hope you will
not deny them that right?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I did, in England and ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These Hippies?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... they accepted my

version.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These Hippies declare,

announce, proclaim, that they are Christians of Hippy sect,
and then they further announce ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nobody can punish them.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then that question is quite
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clear.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am asking further

question when I come to their rituals. Supposing they
further say that marriage is not an institution, with divine
sanction. Christ never married. Therefore, all sex relation
91
are.... promissible, all sorts of them. One declaration. Then
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they further declare that man was born naked and he has
the right to go about naked everywhere. That is the second
declaration. Now this is the religion. Thirdly, they say that
human sacrifice, ritual, feelings is good for human......
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is that a problem for
Pakistan?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir. I am just asking a

proposition, that if they declare this is our religion and we
call ourselves Christians, and they practise is then we have
come to practise, they start going naked in the streets. Do
you think that the state should interfere?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you agree that ........
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Subject to morality yes, I
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agree.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they cannot kill either,

subject to morality, or subject to public order?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you agree that there are
restrictions on freedom of religion?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And those restrictions have
to be judged by?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the competent authority.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Competent authority. That
is, they will make law and the court will carry out public
morality?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the competent authority.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, by the competnet
authority. I do not want to ask you further questions

because you mean legislature and courts. One will make the
law and the other will interpret.
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mean competent authority.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you do not want to
define it any further?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I need not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you don't mean ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is quite clear.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, this freedom of
religion is subject to law; the law cannot say that inspite of
the fact that a particular group of people ...........
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Subject to morality, but the
concept of morality changes from time to time, from area to
area, and from place to place.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As for as a non-religious
type of morality is concerned, you are right. As far as Islam

is concerned, the fundamental truths and realities of
morality do not change ever.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. But if a person does not
observe "Purdah" or goes about semi-naked, do you call it
immoral? In some cases, it will not be considered immoral.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why call it immoral? Call it
against the laws of Quran.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You call everthing against
the law of Quran? Not ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I call everything against the
law of Quran when we find a law in Quran about it.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... not otherwise.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... a person is a Christian
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cannot interfere.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He can go about naked?
94
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not naked, without
"purdah".
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why not?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why not? If you say the
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because it is against the
right of other people.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly. That means that

you can exercise your freedom of religion so long as you do
not affect others or deprive others of their rights?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Quite.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now Sir, if this sect of

Hippies who call themselves Christians ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it a fact?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just giving you a
ridiculous example.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, all these
examples were simply meant to show that freedom of
religion, as given, is subject to restrictions, and it may be by
law. All I was submitting was that this freedom of religion is
subject to restrictions which could be made by law, imposed
by law. That was all I was saying.
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: Very carefully and
extremely rationally applied.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Rationally.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Naturally, because we

persume the law is rational, we presume the courts are
working honestly and properly. That presumtion is there.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And we hope that those
who execute these laws are also very honest and rational.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, rational and honest,
that is presumed.
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Now. Sir, you have seen the Constitution of
Pakistan, In the preamble of the Constitution, the title is

called: "The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of
Pakistan". That shows what sort of character is aimed at or
it has, that will be for anybody to judge. Then in the
Preamble, it is stated, among other things, that
"Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order
their lives in the individual and collective spheres in
96
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said out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah."
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And as they believe.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Naturally every sect is free.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; Every sect is free.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Every sect as they believe.

Now, but that shows, you known, that religion is part of the
duty imposed on the legislature to see that the Muslims .......
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That all sects of Muslims.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All sects, I am not

excluding anybody, I am not excluding, you need not jump
to conclusions that I am excluding you.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am sorry.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The point is simple....

"Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order
their lives in the individual and collective spheres in
accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam..."
So, that means that the Legislature Will see to it that
it frames laws which require the Muslim to live their lives in
accordance with the requirements of Quran and Sunnah as
interpretted by different sects?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; as interpretted.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means there is a duty
imposed on the Legislature to make laws in religious

matters? That is my first question.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We should not generalise.
97
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking that
because they have to make laws to see to it that they live
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their lives in accordance with the injunctions of Islam.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I won't say that because a
law is made by a Sunni .....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... it should be enforced on

a Shia.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not suggesting this.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I say but they
can make laws? I am only concerned with the principle that
Legislature and the Parliament can make laws on this
subject. Second thing is, Sir .....
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Mirza Nasir Ah m ad: In the liht o f the

fundamental belief....
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98
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... of every sect.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are going, Sir, in

deatils. But, Sir, I am saying in principle you give this power
to the Legislature?
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You can explain and add to X 7Y 7 :g [
anything which you say in answer to my question. I am not
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... suggesting that. But I
am just saying that in principle this is a duty imposed by the
Constitution?
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(Interruption)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The other one?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just submitting that,
in principle, the Constitution has imposed a duty on the
National Assembly or the Parliament, that they should see to
it, by making laws, that the Musalamans live their lives in
accordance with the injunctions of Quran and Sunnah?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That Ahmadis live their
lives in accordance with their interpretation?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And Wahabis live their lives

in accordance with their interpretation?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And Barelvi, .... yes.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am only asking ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that the Legislature can

do it?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: With that detail ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... I quite agree with it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, the next provision

of Constitution to which I respectfully draw you attention is
Article:2 of the Constitution.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It says: "Islam shall be the

state religion of Pakistan."
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is Preamble.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is Article:2, this is

not Preamble.
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100
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This is Introduction. Yes.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is Article:2.
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In the Introduction. Very wise. ! V; :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if you could kindly tell
us what are the implications of this; what does it mean?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is quite clear. Islam is the
religion of the State.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It means that, in our
Constitution, politics and religion are not kept separately.

We are not a secular state and that....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. To my mind,
it means that the politics takes on itself the responsibility to
guard the interests of the religion.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, exactly, because of the
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difference....
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: Because something

different. And it is not the mixture of the two.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that, under the

American Constitution, it is provided that the State shall not
establish any religion or another, it will not side with one
sect or another; it will be absolutely neutral in religious
matters. But ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They also mean that
State will not side with one religion or the other.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but here ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It only says on the opposite
side, you know, that the politics of this country takes upon
itself the responsibility to safeguard the interests of Islam.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I say.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It does not say that we

would not be partial to these who do not believe in Islam.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not saying
that. No that is their fundamental rights.... No, not in the
least, not as far the non-Muslims are concerned....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That clears the matter now.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as the Muslims are

concerned, it will encourage them to see that they live their
lives in accordance with the injunctions of Islam.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They say their prayers, they
don't drink, they pay their Zakat, things like that.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Sir, there is further
provision in the Constitution, Article:41 and Article:91....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is ....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that requires that the
President and the Prime Minister shall be Muslims.
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad:

fundamental....
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, this is part of the

Constitution.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Under the heading?

102
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not a directly part
but obligatory part.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Obligatory part?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because Preamble is not

enforceable.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this part ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is enforceable?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Enforceable part.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is after the Principles

of Policy. Yes.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am going again

to give that example. Supposing somebody, a very important
man, a very popular man in our country, but not a Muslim,
he files a declaration that "I am a Muslim and want to
contest a election." Can anybody question that?
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nor great.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he is not a Muslim?
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: No, i f he files this

declaration, how could you call him a pious man and a
great man?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but he makes a false
declaration. People say: "Well somehow we made a mistake;

we want to ...."
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horrid declaration, then he is neither pious nor great.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I am just asking.
Supposing a person....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not possible.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No ....
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( 7Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A pious man to file a false
declaration?
( }ce *
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0qZ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let's take an example
neither a Christian nor a Hindu. Supposing a person who

does not believe in one, or two of the essentials of Islam....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... like he denies Zakat, is
Munkir of Zakat, and he files a declaration that 'I am a
Muslim', and still he says he is a Muslim....
gzZ > 2iG

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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And he ....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... still says he is a
( y{z Hg ZZ *
! :g [)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ! V ; Can he say? A pious
Muslim....
Muslim files a declaration and ....
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0qZ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not talking of a pious
Muslim.
( ;g7]*
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am; I am talking

about him. And the authority declares that he is not. Just
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the opposite of what you say; and opposite is also possible.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking

whether somebody has a right to declare him one way or the
other?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Nobody has got the right to
say that he is a Muslim when he feels, he thinks ....
H{z#
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104
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But supposing ....
( ,np :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... and believes that he is

not ....
( 7y{z r
g NZgzZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing he has done it,

has filed a form ....
(*
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But he is a Muslim, but the
authority concerned declares him as non-Muslim, then?
) {z 9Kg Z pX yqZ {z p :Z*

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( ?$
AX
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will just give the opposite
example, you know. I agree with you, that is possible. He

will go to the court tell the court.....
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) So, there is one way open to him. ! V; :Z*

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( Z3 ZgqZnkZ
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I say. So,
for a person who formally declares that he is a Muslim,
when he denies one of the fundamentals of Islam or two
fundamentals of Islam, openly denies, and still he says that
he is a Muslim....
6,g*
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then the Government
should go to the Court.
( e*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Government is

interested that he should be elected, he is a popular, I say.
Can anybody go to the Court and say "no"?
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} qg^g{z ( h H ,
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well, I personally condemn
that Government.
( V*
@#,
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Government I ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know about the
others.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Government is not the
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
member of the Assembly we elect; Government is nobody in

the Assembly. ( 7,#~Z :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No?

105
( ?7 :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is the members of the
Assembly who elect; Government is nobody in the Assembly.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you used the word

"Government", that is why I repeated that.
( HwEZ\ M #X 7Y :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, because ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You change the word and I
will change that word.
( Vzsp~,sp\ M/
Z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you have been
saying again and again, 'the Government'; I think you

meant Legislature.
( Y#gpg *
!g *
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, whoever is the
authority concerned.
( Kg Z ! 7 :Z*
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( ! V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whichever is the proper

authority.
( Kg Z 9 :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing he thinks he is a

popular man, he is a nice man, he is a man of character, his
religious beliefs are somehow fair, but he does not believe in
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Zakat, Jehad or something, but we are not concerned. He

says he is a Muslim, but he openly says "No, I don't accept
Zakat as part of Islam and I don't think it is necessary"....
X V M YZX V,
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They should not support
( e7G *
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him.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing they

support him, can that be questioned ....
H DG *
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( Y[ Z wZ,
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106
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... or his declaration is
enough under the law? I am speaking of law.
y ~X g Zy ce kZ H :g [ )
( V; g]*
!
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is there a provision in this
constitution that when such a thing is suspected, it should be

settled by a court or, if it is not there, then who is going to
decide? Suppose there is one member of this august House
who says that the declaration is false,....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... a members from the

Opposition, you know.
( Y\ MX #
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, member of the
Opposition can tell the Chief Election Commissioner when

form is filled.
#
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( ;g YH4Zxg #
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And his word is final.
( kZgzZ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, his word is final as far
as they are concerned. But, If the objection is raised by one
person that this man is not Muslim,....
( 7y {z *
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... can, on the basis of your
argument, the candidate say that it is none of your buiness?
kZ \ MX Yg ZzyZ,
6 C
c\ M H :g [ )
( 7g zu
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the basis?
( ? H C
:Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why? Declaration is the

final word.
( {z *
c ce ~ ! VY :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the basis of existing
law? I must know that before I ....
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( Y *
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
Chief Election
Commissioner can see. But the conduct ....
( ' Y$Zr :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it the Chief Election

Commissioner?
107
( ?$Z~]gkZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... of the President
cannot be questioned in the court of law.
( YY *
c VZ7~^g,
6& gg :g [ )
Mirza Na sir Ah m a d: Is it the Elec tio n
Commissioner who decides....
(*
@$Zr~Vg+Z :Z*
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( ! V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... in such cases ....
( '~] 5y Z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. He scrutinizes the

form; he has to see to it ....
(*
@y Yzxg ! V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... that whether he is

qualified for Presidentship ....
( IZn]g Z{z :Z*

* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And he is to take oath

before him.
( 8
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... that he is qualified or
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( 7*
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not.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Oath is taken later, but he

has to file the form before him that he is a Muslim,
because....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Has he got the right to

question that oath?
(r
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6{zH :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There scrutiny takes place.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no; he takes; has he got
the right?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am asking you.

Supposing somebody ....
( N C\ M 7 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I must know the

law before I can....
( xy =I[ZX 77 :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes.
( ! V;V; :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... answer that question.

108
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing some
Christian files a form ....
( D,
6xg |PX ,n :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And ....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... The Chief Election
Commissioner can throw it out and say, no, only Muslims
can do it ....
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( h
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No .....
( ! 7Y :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... for the Presidentship or

the Prime-Ministership.
( na]g Ziz*
c n}]g Z :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Supposing a Christian is
faithful to himself and does it ....?
( nkZ *
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, .....
( 77 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... then he takes the oath

before the Election Commissioner....
($
A*
c VZt $ZkZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, ....
( 77 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad:
.... the Election
Commissioner has got the right to refuse to take his oath or

not?
( } g*
* (7h$Z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not talking of

oath yet; that comes after the election. I am at the stage of
filling nomination papers. When the nomination papers are
filed, the Chief Election Commissioner will look at them.
The first thing he is to see is that the papers carried a
certificate that a person is 45 yesrs old. If the person is 30
years old, the Chief Election Commissioner say, "Well, I am
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
sorry, you are not qualified."
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the Contitution
says ....
Under age
! V ; :Z*
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109
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I say, he is the authority

on the spot to say that your papers are rejected.
Kg Z z,
6kZt Z :g [ )
( ]Z}g v i W
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But can he reject? Can he
reject his papers on the assumption that his declaration as a
Muslim is incorrect?
zGkZX Y] Z {z Hp :Z*
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( Iy \ M LZ kZ
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying on the
assumption, he cannot do it; but supposing the objection is
raised ....
,n1X Y7{z ,
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( ZnZ Z
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who is going to decide?
( ?}y :Z*
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He.
( z :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad:
That Election
Commissioner.... whether he is a Muslim or not?
( 7*
c y{z$Zr :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am asking you if

somebody objects that....
6,kZ /
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well I am very sorry, I
cannot.... I find myself just incapable of....
( 'V*
@*
0 .*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if you kindly hear
for a minute.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... making you understand

what I want to know. My question is that I can form....
( VLe*
*xH~Vj\ M~ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you kindly listen to my

question.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... I can form my opinion

when I know the law.
V Y7z Z Zg KZ ~tzGZ :Z*

* Zi%)
( Hy x=#
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I am not talking about
the law. The law is ....
( V;g7]*
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110
5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My opinion would be
formed on the knowledge of the law....
= y #
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( 'D
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please....
( ?, *
!$\ M H :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... and not otherwise.
( 7:gz :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... let me explain the case

again?
( V*
@R{g *
!z~ :g [)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; Yes, yes, vZuZ
b
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now you have said that if a

person announces, declares, proclaims, that he is a Muslim,
nobody has any right to question his declaration.
XyX*
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((7hnZZ,
6yZkZVy~H*
!
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Quite.
( ! *
! :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if a person files a

false form....
( xg *
N qZ[ Z :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If such a person ......
( '(Z/
Z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. No. Any person....
( 'X 77 :g [ )
Any person. V; :Z*
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the principle.
( wZt :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes.
( ! V ;Y V ;Y :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A person can be a

Christian or anybody. That declaration cannot be
questioned. Now supposing a man files his nomination
paper for the office of the President of Pakistan and he says
he is a Muslim, he writes there and declares that 'I am a
Muslim', but some members or voters of Senate or National
Assembly know that he denies certain fundamentals of
Islam .....
7nZ Z ,
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*
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@g Z wZ ~ C
xsZt Y
111
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the knowledge....
( 'DtyZgzZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... and they raise ....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... is based on facts which
they got to know two days ago? There might be a change
within these two days.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming, I am coming
to that. I have to explain the whole case.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, after the nomination
papers are filled, the date of scrutiny of papers is fixed.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They see he is 45 years old.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They see he declares

himself to by Muslim.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is otherwise qualified.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Otherwise qualified on the

face of it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But objection is raised....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... objection is raised that

he says he is a Muslim, but in fact he is not, because he
denies certain essentials of Islam.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For instance?
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112
5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Zakat for instance
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He says that?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It is not necessary; I don't

believe in it."
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This institution of Zakat

should be abolished?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Abolished or it never

existed; "I do not believe in it."....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that is his view. The
Chief Election Commissioner asks, "Is it so?" he says,
"Yes, Sir, but you are not concerned. You are concerned
only with my declaration. I have written I am a Muslim. It is
none of your business whether I believe in one tenant or not,
or I believe in others or not." What will the Chief Election
Commissioner do? Has he the right to interfere or not?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What will the members of
this House do?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Members of the House are
not under oath to give evidence, Sir.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are asking ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are supposed to elect

or reject.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, you will guide

them. In such circumstances, you will tell us that in the light
of your interpretation of Article:20, the Chief Election
Commissioner says, 'Yes, I will have to accept the
declaration on the face of it?"
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already humbly
submitted so many times that these extreme examples, these

imaginary examples, cannot solve the problem we are facing
today. Let us face facts. You know .....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think we will continue
after....
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Delegation is permittid to
withdraw, to be in the House at 6:00 pm.
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(The Delegation left the Chamber)
Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee is ....
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Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani: If you permit
me.
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---------EVASIVE ANSWERS TO QUESTION IN THE

CROSS- EXAMINATION
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Mr. Chairman: This matter can be taken up with
the Attorney General.
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Mr. Chairm an: The Special Committee is
adjourned to meet at 6:00 pm.
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
In the meantime, the honourable members can

discuss the questions, or methods of putting them, with the
Attorney- General.
Thank you very much.
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A Member: In your Chamber, Sir?
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(The Special Committee adjourned to meet at 6:00 pm)
---------{The Special Committee re-assembled after the

break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.}
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Mr. Chairman: A suggestion, Mr. Attorney
General, from certain members, that certain questions put
by you, the witness avoids, to answer, and there is a
suggestion that a second question may be put. When a
definite answer is to be given by the witness, Yes or no, he
say 'I don't want to give.'
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said in the beginning that

we can't compel the witness. And the House can draw its
own inference that he is avoiding the answer to the question
and if he gives the answer, probabley that will be not
favourable to him. So, this is for the Court, as they say, to
decide.
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116
Mr. Chairman: Yes, they may be called.
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GROUP DELEGATION
Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney- General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, before I
proceed, my attention has been drawn by some members.
For some members, some further clarification on the
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
question of the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan.

In a Mem orandum signed on b ehalf o f the
Ahmadiyya Community before the Boundary Commission
in 1947, the figure given is about two Lakhs. This is an
official document.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Half a million in the whole
of India, including Pakistan, at that time, because it was
done before that.
Now you said this morning that at the time of the
death of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the number of Ahmadis in
1908, was about 4 lakhs. Now, in the course of these 30
years or so, has the number gone down to such extent, or
was this an incorrect figure?
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Approximately?
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I am not saying this. I only wanted that we are
preparing a record and we could have....
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Mr. Y a hya B a k htia r: . .. . o n ex a c t a nd
approximate idea of the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan.
So, which figure you think is correct? The figure given by
the Jamaat-i-Ahmadyia.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... in 1947 ....
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
Mirza Sahib, in
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 I am asking a different
1900-1901....
question now. In 1901, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib had

requested the Government to mention the Ahmadis
separately in the census. Then they have been mentioned in
1901, 1911, 1921 and 1931, I understand, up to that....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And in no census the
figures were correct.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that may not be

correct, Sir....
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... but I want to know why
this practice was given up after 1931? Why are not they
separately mentioned? Have you requested them or the
Government itself did that?
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have not requested anybody to alter it.
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separately?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, one more

clarification. You had stated this morning that your
followers call you Imam of the Jmaat, but actually your
designation is that of Khalifa-tul......
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... Masih-us-Salis.
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, this word "Imam"
could you kindly explain its significance as to in which
sense they call you Imam? What is idea significance?
Because, you know....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, may I remind you that
the day you came to address this House, you corrected the
Chairman and told him that you are Imam of the Jamaat?
,
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what....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you know what the
significance of the word "Imam" is among the Muslims
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generally and among Shia Muslims particularly?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you don't use that in
that sense?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, no, certainly not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, the next point
which I wanted to know this morning which I didn't ask,
can you, as Head or Khalifa or Imam of your Jamaat,
resign your office or you are not allowed?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, before we adjourned
this morning, I was asking you a certain question with
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regard to the office of the Persident and I asked you that

supposing a person.... because Article:41 says that he shall
be a Muslim.... then I ask you supposing a person applies or
his name is proposed as a candidate for the office of
Persident of Pakistan and therein his declaration is filed
that 'I am a Muslim, of age over 45', whatever it may be 50
or 60 and somebody objects at the time of the scurtiny of
nomination papers that he is not a Muslman because he
does not believe in one of the essentials of Islam, he does not
believe for instance, that Zakat is a compulsory or necessary
part of Islam. Now I ask you whether the Election
Commissioner has a right, will be justified to return, to
refuse his nomination paper, reject it, or just because he has
declared that he is a Muslim that should be sufficient?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you, Mirza Sahib.
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Supposing that the man says himself, when he is

asked:
"Is it true that you don't accept Zakat as necessary
part of Islam and one of tha essentials?" He says: "Yes. I do
not believe, I do not think it is a part of Islam, but I am still
a Muslim." Now, at this stage. I only ask whether the
Election Commissioner, Chief Election Commissioner can
reject his nomination papers?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you think that, in the

country, the State has the right to make the law to lay down
what is a Muslim because Consitution requires that
President has to be a Muslim, a Prime Minister has to be a
Muslim or other way.....
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accordance with the Injunction of Islam.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means that they can

make a law laying down what a Muslim is or who is not a
Muslim in a nagative form, or in a positive form, and then
the Election Commissioner, in the light of that law, can
reject the nomination paper.
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Sir, while referring to the Declaration of Human
Rights, you have not relied on any Article of the Declaration
of Human Rights, but only on the opinion of one of the
draftsmen? Isn't it so?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Annexure-I is opinion of
Dr. Charles Malik of Lebanon. Is it not any Article of.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ! V; You have filed the

Annexture.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is Article 29?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I do not remember.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 Probably. But Sir, just
like our Constitution says that you have the freedom of
religion subject to law, Public order and morality, Article:29
places similar restriction.... similar.... I don't say exactly the
same.... on the Human Rights that they also have to be
subject to some sort of restirction.
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X ~zZ+ ZMr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 I am not disputing
that. I am just saying that the Right is also not absolute, but
subject to restrictions.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The philosophy of the Bill
of Rights was put into enduring word by the Arab scholar

and Philosopher Dr. Charles Malik of Lebanon. Dr. Malik
who was a member of the Commission on Human Rights of
the United Nations, helped draft a Declaration of Human
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Rights for the United Nations. Dr. Malik stated that he

deemed to be fundamental principles of civil rights:
1-
That human person is more important than
racial, national or other group to which he may belong.

2-
The human person's most sacred and
inviolable possessions are his mind and his conscience,

enabling him to perceive the truth, to choose freely, and to
exist."
Now, Sir, I would respectfully ask you that......
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Has any motion or resolution before the House
suggested even in the most remotest way that anybody will
not be allowed....
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suggested it anywhere. On the contrary, the Resolution
which has come before the House.....
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will have your human rights and fundamental right,....
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"The human person's most sacred and inviolable
possessions are his mind and his conscience."
Are they going to be affected in any way, as far as
your community is concerned, by any motion or resolution,
in enabling you to perceive the truth, to choose freely, and to
exist?
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put it very bluntly....
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minority,....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... will they stop you from

considering Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet or as your
hero or your leader, or stop you from prayers, or stop you
even from thinking, believing, that you are a Muslim?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, nobody can stop

you from propagating either. You can say whatever your
faith is.
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should you object to it?
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of view; and I will explain my point of view or the point of

view of those who want me to explain their point of view.
But I am just at the moment asking you. How is it going to
affect you? Because as far as your fundamental rights of
religion are concerned, they will be protected.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, but there are Parsis,
there are Christians and they are also patriotic Pakistanis.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are also patriotic
Pakistanis and they feel that they are not treated properly?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, That is a different
thing. They should be treated properly. If some political

party or Government or Legislature is not treating them
properly, I am not justifying that. But I am just saying that
how are their rights affected as far as the religion is
concerned? Can they not pray according to their religion?
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Can they not preach their religion, profess their religion,

propagate thier religion?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is different. But
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I am just saying that your religion will not be affected

because nobody is going to stop you from....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But my religion is affected;
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religion is affected.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have not clarified as to
how? Because you will be allowed to say your prayers, you
will be allowed to call whatever name you want, by the name
of Ahmadi or whatever you like.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, once you are declared a

minority, your rights are protected, Mirza Sahib.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. ! V;V;
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you are not declared a
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minority, then I am not sure if your rights will be protected.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then we don't want our

rights to be protected.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is up to you.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I go to your main

point when you said that if you proclaim that you are a
131
Muslim, everybody should consider that you are a Muslim

and treat you as a Muslim without questioning your
proclamation. And then you further say in your address....
which I mentioned before.... of 21st June, that:
"God Almighty will demonstrate through his designs
who is a believer and who is a disbeliever."
Now, Sir, if inspite of the fact that you declare and
proclaim that you are a Muslim, and still I announce or
anybody announces that you are not a Muslim, will that be
interfering with your fundamental rights.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 , supposing somebody
says that you are not a Muslim....
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with your rights?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the right which you
claim for yourself, do you concede the same right to others
also?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To everybody else.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. They could also....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then you said that
you extend the same right and concede the same right to
others which you claim for yourself, and, of course, the
same courtesy.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The same courtesy.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... courtesy which you

expect from them. Sir, you said in your speech that when
you say that you are a Muslim.... then Mr.Bhutto or Mufti
Mahmood or Maulana Maudoodi......
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I just say Mufti Mahmood, he has got no right to say
that you are not a Muslim. Similarly, you have no....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have got no right to say
that Mufti Mahmood is a non-Muslim.... in this sense, in
this sense.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ! V ; you have no right?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No right.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other sense?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if they say that you are
not a Muslim in same other sense?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In other sense, yes,

they do say it. No, they do say it, and it makes no
difference.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but we should be clear

about the sense. In which sense you say that they should call
you a Muslim?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let us see on the basis
of the principle.
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Sir, the Ahmadi
Community believes that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a

Prophet of God?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was he a "Nabi"?
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad:
The Ahmadiyya
Community does not believe that. The Ahmadiyya
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Community believes that he was "Ummati Nabi", and there

is a lot of difference between the two.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is fact that you will
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First I said Prophet, '........
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136
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... and you qualified it as
"Ummati Nabi"
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now Sir, will you clarify

and define "Ummati Nabi?" How is he different from a real
"Nabi" or "Nabi"?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Separate?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But he can't give his own
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, do you know
that Muslims generally belonging to various schools of

thought do not accept Miaza Ghulam Ahmad as Prophet,
"Ummati" or of any other kind?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they believe that there
could be no Prophet of Allah after Prophet Muhamamd

(Peace be upon him)?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who, who? What do you
mean by "they"?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean not you, but the rest

of the Muslims, or........
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... generally, may be

somebody, generally.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you of
generally the Muslims, generally.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Today? Today?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Today, yes.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it a fact, Sir, that your

community.... the leader of your community or your
followers.... refer to those, who do not accept Mirza Ghulam
Ahmad as a Nabi of some sort, as not Muslims, or Kafirs?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said 'not Muslims', that's
why I put it simply.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First I put that way you can
explain that the Kufr has....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So according to you, they
are not Muslims?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now, you said that
Mufti Mahmood has no right to say that you are not a
Muslim.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have also said that I
have got no right to call him a....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... but you have in your.....
I mean when I say 'you', I do not mean particularly you,....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... b ut lead ers of
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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi, as Kafir, as not Muslim,
or pucca Kafir, I mean, to put it strongly....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: no doubt, Isn't it so?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, .....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... Sir, I am asking a

simple question. If you claim a right for yourself that if you
declare that you are a Muslim, Mufti Mahmood has no
business to call you that you are not. Similarly, do you give
this right to Mufti Mahmood that if you call him not
Muslim or Kafir, he has also a right to call you Kafir and
not Muslim? I am asking you this.... whatever may be the
form
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then we are going to....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, in your address....
now I am changing a little bit, going to a different subject so

that I can come back to the same subject again and clarify
the position.... In your Annexure XI, which is called "Azeem
Roohani Tajjaliyat"( ] qzg x) , Zamima(e) No.XI,
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in that you stated, while praising Insaniyat( M
status of human- being in Islam, in that learned discourse

you said.
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Should be addressed as Imam of Jamat. But in your
address, do you show same courtesy? You know Maulana,
Maudoodi is respected by his own people as Maulana, by his
own Admirers. May be I don't think he is a learned man,
maybe you don't think....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... But let's show courtesy
to call him Mr. Maudoodi you except to be called Imam.
Now, these are the things which require clarification.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think page 12.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just who you the exact....

You say, Sir: "In other words....."
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Members of Jamat-i-Islami or other admirers of
Maulana Maudoodi, call him Maulana Maudoodi.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Or Pir Maudoodi.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, nobody calls him 'Pir

Maudoodi.'
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, normally on his

writing now, Sir, in one of your annexures Nor. VI is
written: 'Maulana Abul Ala'. Now I will call him 'Abul Ala'
because that is the way he is addressed. He is a learned man.
Similarly, Maulana's writings shows that he is a Maulana
by his own Jamaat and by his admirers. Mufti Mahmood, he
is qualified Mufti and he is addressed as such. But be little
someone and say that, perhaps you don't think Maulana
Maudoodi is a learned man, according to you, he is not
Maulana,..........
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... but, at the same time,
you expect....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't mean any

Tehqeer. But you see, if you say Mr.Bhutto, Mr.Mufti,
Mr.Maudoodi, one can understand. You put them in the
same category. You say: 'Mr. Bhutto, Mufti Mahmood, Mr.
Maudoodi.'
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I don't mind your saying....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are entitled to say that,

but....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... out of respect, his
followers feelings are hurt. You say nobody's feeling should

be hurt. That is your lesson, and I appreciate....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your belief. But you....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have said this to your

followers that you should not hurt anybody's feelings.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have to win humanity;
that is how we should win the hearts of humanity for
Muhammad (Sal-Allah Alaihe Wasallam) a'
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's why I say....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I say, Sir, that
you demand courtesy for yourself and do not want to extend
it to others?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I do not demand any
courtesy from you or anybody else.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not suggesting that
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Maulana Maudoodi.....
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I don't demand any '~ 7'~ p :Z *
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not you. But....
148
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... but I must pay
courtesy to all others.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is very nice, Sir, but
your jamaat, if you don't personally, Maulana Maudoodi

has not suggested, you would....
Mr. Chairman: I would suggest to the AttorneyGeneral and the witness that definite questions should be
put instead of MUNAZARA. ( {o)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am sorry. I put the next.
I was, Sir, dealing with the question of rights. If you
claim a right, you concede the same right to others; if you
claim courtesy because....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. The Witness demands

that he should be called "Imam of...."
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not out of.... I did not

want any courtesy. I just corrected because there is another
person who occupies the chair of Sadar..... Sadar
Anjuman-e-Ahmadiyya.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I was asking you
some question whether you call those Muslims who do not
accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet.... when I say
'Prophet', I mean in the sense of Ummati Nabi....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... as Kafir?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As one who doesn't accept

him as Ummati Nabi.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Have you also referred to
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What does that mean?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If anybody has said that....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the definition of
(L L or Muslims as such?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, recently, in
England, when this Rabwa incident took place in Pakistan
on the 2nd June, the Ahmadiyya Community in England at
Blackburn, on the 2nd of June passed a Resolution. You
may have seen it.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I will give you a copy;

you can get it varified:
"That we are deeply disturbed and worried at the
news of riots, breakdown of all law and order and the
persecution of Ahmadis all over the length and breadth of
Pakistan."
The next is:
"That we are distressed at the atrocities meted out to
Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan by non- Ahmadiyya
Pakistanis."
Sir, will you explain who are these 'non- Ahmadiyya
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Pakistanis'? They refer to themselves as 'Ahmediya

Muslims' and those who allegedly committed these atrocities
as 'non- Ahmediya pakistanis'.
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Your Community does not consider t :g [
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Mr. Chairman: The copy may be handed over and
may be replied to by tomorrow.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I shall verify.... ! V ;
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Mr. Chairman: I think, I think....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtirar: We will meet after
( i :g [)
Prayers?
Mr. Chairman: Yes. Before the Delegation leaves,

the Chair needs one clarification. The question was put but
the answer has not yet been clear. So, I will repeat the
question and put it to the Witness:
"Is it a fact that the word "Kafir", as understood by
the Common Muslims.... not by Ulema.... means a man who
is not a Muslim?
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Mr. Chairman: Is it a fact that the word "Kafir"
as understood by a common Muslim.... not Ulema.... means
a man who is not a Muslim? Only the.... clarification on this
point.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahmadi Muslim?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Ordinarily, a common

man, Sir, when you say so and so is Kafir,....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
.... what is his
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154
Mr. Chairman: Is it a fact that he is not a
Muslim it is understood as such?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Chairman wanted
clarification.
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Mr. Chairman: It needs clarification because this

point has not been clarified.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask further questions.
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Mr. Chairm an: Yes, this question remains

pending. The witness can reply any time.
The Delegation is allowed to withdraw; and upto
8:00 pm.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 8:00 pm?
Mr. Chairman: 8:00 pm, after Mughrib Prayers.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You want me, Sir, to....
(Interruption)
8 o'clock. If you want me to clarify some position
and some point, you know, because I don't want to....
Mr. Chairman: Yes, the witness can take any
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time.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are here to clarify the
( DZzci7V :g [)
Mr. Chairman: Yes. ( ! V;Y :}[ )
position.
155
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Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may

keep sitting.
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Mr. Chairm an: The Special Committee is
adjurned to meet at 8:00 pm. for Mughrib Prayers.
(C~ni[fJWB8wS :}[)
The Special Committee adjourned for Maghreb Prayers to
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
meet at 8:00 pm.
---------The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghreb

Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the
Chair.
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Mr. Chairman: Should we call them? .... They
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. the Attorney General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, before we adjourned,
you were explaining the meaning of "Kafir" and you said
that when you referred to Muslim and Kafir, you mean in
political sense.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Also, we also mean in
poltical sense and in other sense also.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In both the Sense. And one

sense is political sense means that he says within the pale of
Islam.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you, Sir,
because so much has been said in our society about the
word "Kafir" and you being learned, have your own
interpretation, so we want the position to be clarified, that
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when you say that so and so is "Kafir" or any member of

your community says that so, what is the impression it given
157
to the ordinary Muslims, ordinary followers of yours or

ordinary public? That he is outside the pale of Islam? Or he
still remains in the folds of Islam?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your father was also the
Imam before you.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He
was Khalifa-ul-Masih
Sani.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 77 I am just Saying
because it was just your.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, supposing Mirza

Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad as "Khalifa-e-Sani
Ahmediyya.....
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158
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....Or....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... even Mirza Ghulam

Ahmad as the founder.....
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159
when do I become a Kafir? If I refuse to accept Mirza

Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi, will I be a Kafir according to you
or a "Gunahgar"?
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160
dub a person who does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I say that in
which category will you put a person who does not accept
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi? As a Gunahgar or as a
Kafir?
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This is binding on the H7t ~ :g [
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 199.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 199. The Report says
Sir, that:
"On the question whether the Ahmadis consider the
other Muslamans to be Kafirs in the sense of their being
outside the pale of Islam, the position taken before us is that
such persons are not Kafirs and that the word "Kufr" when
used in the literature of the Ahmadis in respect of such
persons, is used in the sense of Minor hereby and that it was
never intended to convey that such persons were outside the
pale of Islam. We have seen the previous pronouncement of
Ahmadis on this subject, which are numerous and to us they
do not seem to be capable of any other interpretation than
this that people who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
are outside the pale of Islam. It is now stated that
Musalamans, who do not accept the claim of
Mamoor-min-Allah, after the Holy Prophet, are not deniers
168
of Allah and the Prophet are, therefore, still within Ummat.

This is in no wa y inco nsistent with the p revio us
announcement that the other Musalmans are Kafirs. In fact,
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these words indirectly reaffirm the previous conviction that

such persons are Musalmans only in the sense that they
belong to the Prophet's Ummat and as such are entitled to
be treated as members of Muslim society (Muashira). This is
very different from saying taht they are Musalmans and not
Kafirs."
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you have explained the same position as explained they....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And Sir, while we are on

this subject, will you kindly make a distinction between a
political Muslim and a non-political Muslim, I mean very
briefly.
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This is from "Alfazal" June 1922, 26-29. I think it
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Mr. Chairman: No, one thing may be clarified:
whether the writings are admitted or not?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Beg your pardon?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that si not denied.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 26,29 June, 1922.
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This you have said that because for different
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The same reply?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then the proposition is very

simple now....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... if you claim that you are

a Muslim, nobody can call you that you are not a Muslim?
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Similarly, Mufti
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call him that he is not a Muslim?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Certainly.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if he calls you not a
Muslim. as you call him not Muslim, than both have a right
to call each other Kafir?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because he called you. You

have also a right to call him?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In retaliation?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, will you

please explain if a particular Maulvi, Alim.... or so-called
Alim you, can call him.... calls Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that
he was Kafir, or Ahmadis are Kafir, now do you condemn
the whole Muslim community for that, or that particular
individual?
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themselves....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But how?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... from that Fatwa....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... we don't call them Kafir.

191
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, but is there
going to be a referendum? Now....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, no....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have no idea what Maulvi
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sanaullah said, but if you say all the Musalmans, the whole
lot of them, are Kafirs....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will ask you again.
Please understand, try to understand my question. Now, I
am a Muslim who has nothing to do with Barelvi, Deobandi
or anybody else, I am just giving you an example there could
be many. Now, if a Barelvi Maulvi or a Deobandi Maulvi
declares Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Kafir....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you don't?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....and I have not even

heard of his fatwa....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you don't declare
him a Kafir?
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Sir,....
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Now, as far as I understand, is that all the Muslims,

they are all Muslims because they believe in the Holy
Prophet and all that. But Mirza Sahib says since I have
come now, I am Nabi or Mirza Sahib's Khalifa said
those Muslims who do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as
Prophet, as Nabi, they are outside, dismissed, expunged,
whatever you may call it,.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....so, they were Muslims,
but they have been removed from the pale of Islam....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... it does not mean that,
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were before, but are no longer....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7, ..... that is how it is
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, we can continue
tomorrow morning....
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Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow morning.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... because it will not

conclude so soon.
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Mr. Chairm an: Yes, the mem bers of the

Delegation are permitted to go. Tomorrow at 10:00 am.
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---------AVAILABILITY OF BOOKS ETC. FOR

QUOTATIONS
AND CROSS- REFERENCES
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Mr. Chairman: The quotations can be supplied to
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can be....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The books are available.
198
These members who asked me to put these questions to the

witness, I told them to bring the authority written therein
here.
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Mr. Chairman: We have got them.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... they can find out.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman....
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Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Mr.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, they are available.
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Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Sidiqui: At

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Moulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, they are available. So, any

reference the witness can see, he will look up tomorrow and
can reply.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The books, Sir, which I
am referring to....
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Mr. Chairman: Yes.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... are written either by
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself or by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din
Mahmud.... his addresses. So, they are with the Ahmadiyya
Jamaat. But in case they don't have them....
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Mr. Chairman: I think before adjourning for
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Attorney- General, and....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With the witness, I will not
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only those books....
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Mr. Chairman: No, if the Attorney- General

confronts them.... this page, this portion.... is it correct?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. But he says he wants to
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. ( ! V;Y :}[ )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... he wants me to give him

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Mr. Chairman: Yes....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... It depends upon his
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5th Aug, 1974 No:01
DISTURBANCE DURNIG THE CROSSEXAMINATION
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Mr. Chairman: And the second thing I would like
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Attorney- General should keep.... at least should not disturb
him. They should not be impatient. This I would request
because I.....
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Mian Mohammad Attaullah: ... for instance,
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Mr. Chairman: That is a separate matter. s~
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Mr. Chairman: That is almost settled.
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Mr. Chairman: I call the House to order. Sardar
Abdul Aleem.
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members.
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Mr. Chairman: The Attorney- General can ask

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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I request, he need not
answer any question at all. But you, as judges, should note
that. The demeanour of the witness, his hesitation, his effort
to be evasive, all these are taken into consideration and you
can draw your own inference, favourable or adverse. And
your address....
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Mr. Chairman: One thing I may mention. The
honourable members.....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... you can make a note of

everything. You give a fair decision yourselves.
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Mr. Chairman: One thing I may remained the
honourable members: we are getting the opinion of a

witness....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But....
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Mr. Chairman: .... Opinion is, .... rare case, under

the Evidence Act.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know. He is such a

witness, you know, and such an issue before the House.
---------CONDUCT OF THE WITNESS DURING

THE CROSS- EXAMINATION
Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Sir, the conduct of the
witness is not coming on the record, Sir, as to how he is
behaving....
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Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: .... and how he is....
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Mr. Chairman: No, no, no, everybody is....
Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: As far as the record is
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Mr. Chairman: Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro.
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A Member: Mr. Chairman, a submission, a

humble submission to you, Sir, that I....
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: I highly
appreciate your patience but there should be some check.
Sir, some check from the Chair also should be applied.
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Mr. Chairman: This I shall only do when the

Attorney- General seeks the aid of the Chair. When he
thinks....
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Just a minute. When he thinks so, only then, in
that case I shall do it because this I have left entirely to the

Attorney- General. Yes.
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Mr. Chairman: .... at 10:00 am. tomorrow.
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---------The Special Committee of the Whole House adjourned to

meet at ten of the clock, in the morning,
on Tuesday, the 6th August, 1974.
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209
6th Aug, 1974 No:02

----------
PROCEEDINGS
OF
---------Tuesday, the 6th August. 1974.
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---------The Special Committee of the Whole House of the
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Mr. Chairman: Should we start?
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Members: Yes.
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Mr. Chairman: They may be called.
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(Pause)
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---------BOOKS FOR REFERENCE DURING
CROSS- EXAMINATION
Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney- General, would you
agree with me if the books are placed near you for
referance?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (Attorney- General of
Pakistan): They are available.
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210
Mr. Chairman: All are available?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are available.
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Mr. Chairman: And the reference.... which you

put to the witness... may be shown that this is it, and there
should be least disturbance near the Attorney- General.
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---------METHOD OF CONTACTING
THE ATTORNEY- GENERAL
Mr. Chairman: Two honourable members have
been....
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Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, Sir,....
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Mr. Chairman: Just a minute.... requested to

collect the chits. One is Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari and
Mr. Aziz Bhatti. The chits should be delivered to these
honourable members. And during the recesses, they can
discuss with the Attorney- General. And any hounurable
member can discuss any matter with the Attorney- General
in the recess but, when cross- examination is going on, there
should be no disturbance, and specially no whispering
around this area. Although I would not like whispering
from this end or from that end, but around this area
whispering should not be.
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Yes, Ch. Jahangir Ali.
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6th Aug, 1974 No:02
INTERPRETATION OF DOCUMENTS
OR WRITINGS
Ch. Jhangir Ali: Mr. Speaker, Sir.... oh! Mr.
Chairman, Sir, interpretation of a document or a writing is
not the job of a witness. I would therefore request. Sir, that
the witness should not be allowed to interpret the writing. It
is the job of the Presiding officer or the Judge, Sir, or this
honourable committee, to give interpretation to the writings.
He should be conformed only with this....
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Ch. Jhangir Ali: ....whether you admit the
existence of this writing in your so and so....
Mr. Chairman: This is what is settled. You are the

judges. You can draw any inference out of this.....
Ch. Jahangir Ali: Sir, he is wasting unnecessarily

the tim e in giving interpretatio n.... wha t wa s the
interpretation before the Munir Committee, what was the
statement before the Munir Committee...
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Mr. Chairman: Ch. Sahib whenever any such
difficulty arises, the Attorney- General can ask the Chair
that this is unnecessary.
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Ch. Jahangir Ali: All right. That is the better
way.
Mr. Chairman: Begum Nasim Jahan.
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Begum Nasim Jahan: A......

Mr. Chairman: I have entirely left the matter in
the hands of the Attorney- General. He can seek the
protection of the Chair. He can seek the clarifiation or
anything. Whatever he needs. Yes.
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---------WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION ON
QUESTIONS COMMITTEE
Begum Naseem Jahan: Mr.Chairman, Sir, I am
on a matter of clarification. Have women been given any
representation on the Questions Committee?
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Mr. Chairman: Pardon?
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Begum Nasim Jahan: Have women been given

any representation on the Questions Committee?
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6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Chairman: The scope was so narrow: the
scope was only five members to sit in the Question
Committee.
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Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir, I....
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Mr. Chairman: The Steering Committee has got

representation of one....
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Begum Nasim Jahan: Yes, Sir, I know.
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Mr. Chairman: .... Begum Shireen Wahab; and

the Question Committee had to comprise out of the Steering
Committee.
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Begum Nasim Jahan: Mr. Speaker... Mr.
Chairman, Sir, may I make a humble submission?
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Begum Nasim Jahan: I consulted Begum
Shireen Wahab about this thing and she said that the
Committee. The Question Committee was not formed when
she was present. Now, Sir, I am fully aware. I don't want to
be irrelevant and I don't want to waste your time and the
time of the House.
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6th Aug, 1974 No:02
Now the witness has made a very important

statement in his examination in chief or in his dep...., you
know, in what he deposed before the House. Now, his link in
this chain is that because the Holy Prophet of Islam (May
peace of God be upon him) did not have a male issue.
Therefore, the female line cannot carry on the tradition.
Therefore, we have to had a Roohani male issue carrying on
his tradition.
Now, Sir, this is also an important issue in the case
because it is an important link and also it hits the status of
women. Now, a man who claims to represent one crore of
Muslims all over the world, I just wnat to....
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Mr. Chairman: I request the hon'able member to
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be patient.
Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir,....

213
Mr. Chairman: Please stop them. Yes.
Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir, I just wanted. I never
want to be irrelevant and I hope you will correct me when I
am irrelevant. But whatever comes in the examination in
chief is subject to cross examination. That is what I was
told. May be I am wrong. But, Sir, I feel that this is a very
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6th Aug, 1974 No:02
important link and an important chain. There should be a

woman on the Questions Committee, who should vet the
question.
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Mr. Chairman: I will discuss the matter with the
convener of the Question Committee, because the Question

Committee came out of the Steering Committee.
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Begum Nasim Jahan: Well, thank you, Sir, I am
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very graceful.
Mr. Chairman: Yes, I will just bring.... I will

convey the feelings of the honourable member to the
Chairman of the Committee.
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Begu m N asim J ahan : Sir, they a ll a re
supporting me.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, the entire House supports

you. No, no, it has to go from the Steering Committee.
Now, I will request the members, if they are
prepared, we may call the witnesses.
They may be called.
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6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Chairm an: I will request honourable
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Mr. Attorney- General, you can proceed.
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214
REPETITION OF OATH BY THE WITNESS

Mr. Chairman: The Oath?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It may not be repeated, Sir,

it is the same.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is. All right, the witness

may take the oath. otherwise, Rao Sahib, it is a continuing
process; it is a continuing process.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not necessary, Sir, at
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Mr. Chairman: It is not necessary. Yes, it is a

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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is a formality; that you

have applied.
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Mr. Chairman: It is a cross-examination. It may
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be carried to one day, two days, three days. It is a continuing

process. And the oath is for the entire examination.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is just a formality.
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Mr. Chairman: No, then we have to go on for

oath daily.
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Yes, Mr. Attorney- General to continue.
( Og ~g Ywg *
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---------CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE
QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney- General of
Pakistan): Mirza Sahib, I don't want to waste your time or
the time of the House. It is valuable. But for the purpose of
clarification, I will repeat one or two questions again
because I am not sure what the reply was yesterday.
You said, Sir, that there are two categories of Kafirs:
One category is Kafirs who fall outside the pale of Islam.
Rather does it? Am I correct in understanding you?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if.... shall I ask or

you want to complete this?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if a Muslim, as
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accept Hazrat Isa as a Nabi, in which category he come of
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The word is not even used. The word, Sir, is not used
"Kafir" at all. Non Ahmadi, who does not accept Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other words, Sir....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other words, you allow

your Girls to marry the other categories of non-Ahmadies?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not as a matter of faith but
as a matter of expediency you refuse?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 You object to it because

relations will not be happy. But if an Ahmadi marries a
non-Ahmadi girl, the relation will be all right? It will be
happy? Further it is...
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we don't like.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is what Mirza Sahib says.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It would be Happier than
that in the previous case.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing there is no fatwa
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, Sir, supposing there

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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that realm of unreality,

you might issue any fatwa.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why suppose unreality?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but You think that the
only reason is "Fatwa"?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will put it in a different
way. If a person is not aware of "Fatwa" but he believes it is
his faith.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has blind faith in his
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not in the
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Maulvi, Sir. What I was submitting is that a Muslim feels

and he has his faith that after the Holy Prophet Muhammad
(a
a) on other Prophet of any category or kind can come.
This is his.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that, he has never
even heard of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, he never heard of any
Fatwa....
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His faith was that one other Prophet would come....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On both sides....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....he cannot repudiate, he
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I will ask you

another question. If you don't mind. In tribal society a
brother is responsible for the sins and crime of his brother.
But in Islam and in civilised society, I am responsible for my
crime, for my sin, and but not for my brother's crime or my
brother's sin. It is correct or not?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if the child's father has
committed the sin of not accepting.... from your point of
view.... Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Nabi....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... his six month's old

child, are you punishing him also for the sin of his father?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we won't punish the

boy.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:
Has not Mirza
Bashir-ud-din said:
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But why?

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not a punishment; I
tell you why.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question was, the way
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between the two categories?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ! Y 7 .... we are here;

because we want the issue to be clarified.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question is repeated.
Mr. Chairman: .... at page 154.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... to submit that I may be
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allowed to repeat....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I ask you that you don't
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say prayer because of the "Fatwah" or because of the

matter of your own faith? Because if I don't accept Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad as Nabi.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Sir, you said yesterday

that the Fatwa boomerangs. Now...
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I again want to ask....
because this reply was not clear to me.... as to why the
Janaza prayer of a child of six months.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I draw your
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Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mohammad Ahmad Sahib.
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Now, Sir, here I will respectfully say that no question
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, this is a part of the
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them.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But nobody condemned

them.
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Ra bwah incid ent either... (Interrup tion) who was
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12:00... twenty five minutes break. The delegation is
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---------EVASIVE OR INCORRECT REPLIES
BY THE WITNESS
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Mr. Chairman: I will request the AttorneyGeneral to be attentive. Muhammad Haneef Khan, just a
minute. Attorney- General being... yes.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney- General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I said everything would

be on the record. The members are judges. They will see,
they will form their own opinion, they can draw their own
inferences, but if, at this stage when the witness is giving
evidence, anybody tries to stop him, they will give an excuse
that the National Assembly of Pakistan did not give him a
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proper hearing, he was stopped from answering questions.

So it does not matter if it takes a little more time. We should
bear with that, we should put up with that. This is my
request.
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Professor Ghafoor Ahmad: The incident of
Denmark, he may be asked to give documentary evidence.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know sir, because he is
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reply, and you know that, but let the record speak for itself.
But if you stop him or if the Chairman stops him, then he
can have a legitimate excuse that the National Assembly did
not give him a proper hearing. It is a very important issue.
So it makes no difference. I get tired, you get tired, but we
will stay for a day more. Let him talk, let him say whatever
he wants to say. Already he has made a grievance that be
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wanted to submit a further statement, but sufficient time

was not given. So my request is, let him put up, let him say
whetever he wants.
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Mr. Chairman: Ch. Jahangir Ali's suggestion
may also be kept in view.
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Ali's suggestion may aslo be kept in view. He has also
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to the Attorney General just in the recess.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I asked about Quaid -iAzam. He said he was Shia. Then I asked: what about
Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan? His reply was same to that. I
am coming to that.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, he is coming....
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Mr. Chairman: I adjourn the House to meet at
12:00. The rest will be discussed later on.
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[The Special Committee of the whole House reassembled

after the break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in
the Chair.]
---------CITATION OF FATWAS AND

THEIR REFUTATIONS
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(At this stage the Deligation entered the Chamber)
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GROUP DELEGATION
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question about Namaz -e- Janaza and explanation given on

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value after Ch. Zafarullah Khan's.....
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Mr. Chairman: That is an opinion of the witness.
The witness can express his opinion......
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Mr. Chairman: .... but the witness has to say
whether the writing is admitted or not.
263
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad)
So, you don't agree with this?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... what is "Kafir"?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is clear now. The word
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That is how I understood perhaps that is how an
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have different
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What I am respectfully submitting is that you are
trying to prove that they are Muslims and Mirza Sahib says:
don't try to prove they are Muslims.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg to differ.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I am right or wrong....

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg to differ.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that I think....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Different interpretation.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ! Y 7 I mean a far as I
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in the amicable manner. You take your time. Please don't....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will draw your

attention also to 'Anwar-i-Khilafat,' page 90. Here it is
stated:
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So the Delegation is permitted to leave, to report
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The house is adjourned to meet again at 6:00 pm.
---------[The Special Committee adjourned for Lunch Break to

re-assenble at 6:00 p.m.]
---------[The Special Committee re-assembled after Lunch Break,

Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.]
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GROUP DELEGATION
Mr. Yahya Bakihtiar: Mirza Sahib, you were
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(Interruption)
Mr. Chairman: There is nothing to say. Only the

House is adjourned after the Delegation has left.
Mr. Chairman: Any honourable member has to

say anything?
Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari!
I will request the members to be in their seats.
341
PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MOSQUE IN

IJEBUODE, NIGERIA AND ITS CAPTIONS
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(Lest we ignore the conspiracies of Qadyanis against

our belief.)
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(It is these people who are fighting us in Africa by
means of various methods and infiltrating the Muslim
people in the name of Islam.)
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(This conference of Islamic Organisations held at
Mecca on 14th to 18th Rabi-ul-Awal discussed very
important subjects. Prominent among there was how to
meet the contemporary anti- Islamic movements. Qadianism
came at the top of these subversive movements which were
fully discussed. Its dangers to the Islamic world were
exposed as also the deceitful and disruptive methods
employed by it.)
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Mr. Chairman: You put it to the witness.
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Mr. Chairman: No, no, you put it to the witness.
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The document has been produced by the witness
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The witness relies on this document. You can put any of

this.... extracts of this document, yes. So, tomorrow it can be
put. This you can discuss with the Attorney- General..
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It is on record that it has been produced by the
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record and the honourable members can see it, if any. I
think it should not be passed on. It should not be passed on.
It should remain, it shall remain in my Chamber till it is
translated and everything. And from 9:00 to 10:00
tomorrow, the members can see it in my chamber. Yes.
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Mr. Chairman: It will be handed over to
Maulana Sahib for translation and tomorrow Maulana
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Sahib will hand it over to me at 9:00.
---------SUPPLY OF COPIES OF THE PROCEEDINGS,

RELATING TO CROSS- EXAMINATION TO
MEMBERS/ATTORNEY- GENERAL
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I am trying to get 250 copies of these proceedings so
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Mr. Chairman: You will... the Attorney- General
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The Attorney- General needs it.
6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Chairman: I will ask the Secretary to dilever
the copies as....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever is prepared that

will do, that will be sufficient.
Mr. Chairman: Yes, copies of the proceedings to

the Attorney- General at least
E
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copy should be given to the Attorney- General, because

tomorrow brief cannot be prepared without today's
proceedings. So, even if you have to put more time or over
time, one copy has to be prepared.
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So, the House is adjourned to meet tomorrow at
10:00 am.
---------[The Special Committee of the whole House

adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning, on
Wednesday, the 7th August, 1974.]
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----------
PROCEEDINGS
OF
---------Wednesday, the 7th August. 1974.
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Mr. Chairman: Is Mr. Attorney- General
prepared? Should we call them?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (Attorney- General of
Pakistan) Yes, Sir.
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Mr. Chairman: They may be called.
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CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI
GROUP DELEGATION
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib have you

verified that quotation which I read out yesterday.
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The Last question which I asked you and you
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Mr.Yahya Bakhtiar: He is repeating the same?
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Mr.Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I asked some question
about the separatist tendency in ahmadis with regard to
that there is a statement of Mirza Bashir-ud-din,
Mahmud ahmad. Before I ask about this statement, there
is an impresion that before the Independence, the stand of
your jamaat was that you are a separate entity, you have
nothing to do with Muslims, you are just like Christians
or Parsees. but after independence, you have taken the
stand that you are part of Muslims or Muslims Millat or
Muslim nation. but befere that, I mean to say, if you
know that and you can reply. With that background, I
am reading out this'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I do not know what you
are referring to, because I have never'
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: There is an impression that

before independence'
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: ....you said that you were a

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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar:
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Nation, Muslim Millat, not before'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Not before the declaration
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of Pakistan?'
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The creation of Pakistan?

Independence.....
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: About that time,47up to that

time.
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: That was'

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 'Shoulder to shoulder
with the Muslim League'
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: That was after 3rd
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the creation of
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Before the'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the creation of

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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Before the announcement.

Before the announcement that Pakistan had to become a
reality, was going to be established'put it that way'the
3rd June statement of 1947 I fully'
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I think that this is
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It might be an impression

in some minds. Let us clarify it.
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. This is a statement of
Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Ahmed-"Al-Fazal" 13th November,
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1946'
7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: This reads:
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Before I conclude this, Sir,
'Because
I want you to be in picture 'there is also a
paper "Impact" published in England, and you might have

seen it'
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: 27th June 1974.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Two into one would not
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I would like to read
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I don't want to read part of it'
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this, Sir, so that'
Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: "Impact" International,

fornightly, 14th to 27th June, 1974.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You would like' whether
I have a right to these views or not?
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: When I said that there is an
impression, this is one of the impression, generally this
impression, that before the Independence this was the stand
of the Ahmadis. And here I would read'
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: I really do not know. But
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this is a magzine published.
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366
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the standing of
this publication?( w Hg Z { kZ
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: May be nothing at all, sir.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Have we got anything to do

with this?
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you have got

nothing to do with it. I don't know. I do not say that you
have anything to do or it is your publication or it is
authoritative pronouncement of Ahmadiyya jammat. it is
one of the magazines, published in England, which has
reported that press conference of Ch.Zafarulla Khan and
what happened in Pakistan. So I read that:
"Pakisatan's Qadianis or Ahmadis problem and the
recent trouble surrounding it revolves around the interesting
question whether the Qadianis should he regarded as a
non-Muslim minority in a Muslim society or a Muslim
minority in a non-Muslim society, for such is the
fundamental and mutually exclusive nature of the
differences that by no stretch of argument can the two be
forced together under one Muslim label. The matter
involved no complicated theology as Sir Zafarulla, a
prominent leader of the Ahmadiyya moment'"
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not want to read a
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not want to read a

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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only one part of it I am
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misunderstanding:
"'The matter involved no complicated theolegy as
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Sir Zafarulla, a prominent Leader of the Amadiyya

movement, explained last week to the press in London, they
regarded Muhammad (peace be upon him) as only the last
law bearing Prophet and held Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a
prophet raised in divine Command and in fulfilment of the
prophecies in regard to the advent of Messiah. (This is
Choudhry Sahib's quotation) But, as he admitted, Muslims
believe that there is to be no kind of Prophet after
Muhammad, the question boils down to this that Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad was either of the two: a true Prophet or
false Prophet. His prophethood being the basis of those who
believe in Mirza Ghulam ahmad, the Qadianis, and those
who deny the Muslims obviously do not belong to a single
category of faith. Understandably, from the Qadianis
viewpoint too, those who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam
Ahmad and his message are Kafirs. "It is obligatory on us to
consider non-Ahmadi a non-Muslim and not to offer
prayers behind them because we consider them repudiators
of one of the Prophet of Allah", I containue the quotation,
"The child of a non-Ahmadi is also a non-Ahmadi and we
should not offer prayers even for him. Hazrat
Massih-e-Maood Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has expressed
strong resenment against an Ahmadi who would give his
daughter in marriage to a non-Ahmadi."
"Anwer-e, Khilafat"Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud
Ahmad, Khalifa-i-Qadian, Pages 89-84). When the Pakistan
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founder Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali jinnah, died, Sir

Zafarulla then Pakistan's Foreign Minister, stood aside and
did not join the funeral prayers. A year before Pakistan's
independence'"
Now, Mirza Sahib, here comes with quotation which
I just read:
"A year before Pakistan's independence, (quotation
starts) I sent word through a representative of mine to a
highly responsible British Officer to the effect that our
rights too should be recognized like parsees and Christians.
368
The officer thereupon said, "They are minorities while you

are a religious sect." I said, "Our seperate rights should be
recognized just as theirs have been recognized For every one
Parsi... I would porduce two Ahmadis."
And this is... I shall give the date 13-11-1946.
"This was Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmud, the head
of the Quadiani Community and the probable emissary was
Sir Zafrullah. At the time of independence and demarcation
of boundaries the Quadianis submitted a representation as a
group separate from Muslims. This had the effect of
decreasing the proportion of the Muslim's population in
some marginal areas in the Punjab and on consequent
award to India' Gurdaspur was given to India to India to
enable her to link with Kashmir. The Qadianis insistence on
being treated as a part of the main body of Islam was,
therefore, oppossed to Pakistan's position. Very early on, the
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Qadianis leadership exhorted its followers to convert the

small population of Baluchistan and be in a position to call
at least one province our own and to join the armed forces.
The subsequent Qadiani's acquisition of very powerful
position in business and in industry, civil and military has
aroused fears of an eventual Qadiani take over of Pakistan.
Many allege a Qadiani role in the break up of Pakistan.
Sug gestio ns to this effect were m ad e even in the
correspondence column of Bangladesh Observer. Given this
background the recent eruption of widespread desturbance
should come as no surprise, but it is deplorable too. The
Muslims allege the Qadianis behave violently, arrogantly,
provacatively. But the Muslim's own obligation to behave
just is uniliteral one. In fact by their propensity to get
p ro vo k ed a n d hys te ric a l th ey ha ve p e rm i tt ed the
unscrupulous to exploit the situation to their ends. Whether
this is happening now is difficult to say 'yet'. However, the
basic problem which remains unresolved is that of the
Qadianis minority status. Everything may not be so Islamic
in Pakistan but she definitely has an exemplary record of
fair treatment of her minorities, Parsis, Christians, Hindus
and Jews and the Qadianis once accorded a constitutional
369
right and safeguard as a minority should hope to line in

peace and amity. The fact that they have come to occupy key
positions in the country's econoimic, political and military
life shows that there is no anti-Qadiani hostility or
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discrimination as such. But complication is caused by the

desire to over reach both economically and politically. While
a high Court judge is already enquiring into the trouble, Sir
Zafrullah Khan's attempt to involve the Human Rights
Commission and other international agencies and
desclosure that they have approached the American State
Department and the British Foreign office was bound only
to create more misgivings."
I just wanted that one portion, Sir, but that.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The source of this article ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are the views of....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... is the one who is

well-versed in spreading the false allegation against
Jamaat-i-Ahmadiyah.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not saying that he is a
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are the views. He has reported the press conference and he
says that this is the stand of the Ahmadis.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. These are not
the views expressed by Ch. Zafrullah Khan.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I have said these
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press conference.
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expressions of Ch. Zafrullah Khan.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not say that these are
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370
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: These are not the
comments on the....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....Statements or anything,

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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is not a comment
because what portion of the Press Conference the comment
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is connected with?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Relating to the story what
the trouble is about.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is talking of the Press

Conference, he is talking of so many other things, and those
are not inter related.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But the one thing which I
wanted to ask you is that here is an impression that, at the
time of Independence or immediately before that, the stand
of the Ahmadiya Jamaat was that they are separate just like
Parsees, and after that....
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stand.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, will you please explain

this statement of Mirza Sahib which I have just read out
13th January, 1946?
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Sir, now I go to another subject.
What is the concept or meaning, according to you, of
Massih-e- maood
( [) ? Because this is something
which requires explanation, because I have some idea that it

is
x?Zm} reincrnate or some such thing; but we want to
be very clear on this.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is to what I wanted an
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The delegation is permitted to leave and to report
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The honourable members will keep sitting.
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Mr. Chairman: Before we adjourn for the tea

break....
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Before we adjourn for the tea-break, there
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are certain points for the cross-examination which we will

discuss in our chamber with the Attorney- General. And if
anything remains outstanding, then we can discuss it in the
House.
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---------CORRECTION OF MISTAKES IN THE RECORD
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir correction of mistakes
in the record of the proceedings there are a lot of mistakes

in the record and that is why....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Secretary or the Joint
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important. I have asked at a number of places that: "I am
not giving you the example, the exceptional example of a
man who tells lies in order to save his life." and it has been
written.
"I am giving the example", The word not what is
missing, May be I was away from the mike, but this can
make all the difference. So, there are so many other things.
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Some quotations have been left out, and punctuations is

required. When I say that supposing I go and say that I am
Christian. Now "I am Christian" comes within inverted
commas. These things should be looked into....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... before it is circulated to

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Mr. Chairman: And we adjourn the House to

meet at 12:15.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you have noticed. Sir,
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that I was given some of the citations a different impression

from the small quotation which I was given. I think it
should be carefully studied before they ask me to put a
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. Thank you very much. The

House is adjourned for 12:15.
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---------(The Committee adjourned to reassemble at 12:15 hours)
---------[The Committee re-assembled after break, Mr. Chairman

(Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.]
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Those doors should be closed. Then the members are
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Mr. Chairman: (to Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar)
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Today after nine, after the evening session, we
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review everything
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---------CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI
GROUP DELEGATION
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is explaining; and let

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---------POINT OF ORDER RE: READING OUT

WRITTEN ANSWER TO QUESTION
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Normally the rule is that a
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: I can read out the
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Mr. Chairman: The witness can ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The objection is valid when

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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The objection was raised

when I was reading a quotation.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I was already reading a

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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....Mirza Sahib's quotation

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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. I do understand.
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Mr. Chairman: I may remind the witness that a

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Mr. Chairman: if the books are here in the
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stead or referring.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They were available. But I
will read them. Then, after that, if they cannot verify, we
will....
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We are prepared to produce the books.
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whether these writings are admitted? Then the questions.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I asked the

witness, Sir. That is what I ask. But he will like to know
what come before and after. But he has not denied it.
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Mr. Chairman: The explanation will come when
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, he says that he will

have to read it from the original.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why you are....
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Mr. Chairman: There might be...
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Mr. Chairman: There might be some bonafide
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may be handed over and the other members of the
delegation can verify those.
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delegation: and by the time you finish, they can seply.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney- General,
please continue.
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You are filing them on the record because it is very
lengthy. Then we will see if there is some question. We will

ask.
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Mr. Chairman: May be handed over to the

Attorney- General.
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Mr. Chairman: 7 for the cross- examination,
the Attorney- General may cross- examination on the basis.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you have relied on
it, so, if it is not on the record....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I rely on that most....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You relied on a document.
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There was no reason. They do not have the plea for
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ! Y 7 it speaks for itself.

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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To the world, as a whole, it

speaks and tells a different story.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I say that it speaks
for itself; to see, but....
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Point of
information Sir,
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You say that you....
Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soom ro: After a

question has been put before them, they should deny or
refuse; and the explanation can be given later on whether
the fact is denied or accepted.
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Mr. Chiarman: That I have already remarked.
(To Mr. Attorney- General) Yes, continue.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I have said
that the witness should see, you know, if it is there or not.
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have a right to explain.
Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney- General, just a

minute. The witness is aided by few members of delegation.
Their object is to assist the witness because it is a matter
which needs quite at length certain discoveries or certain
documents. That is why their are two aspects. When
Attorney- General put the question, the witness has either to
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search it out and say "Yes" or "No", or to give explanation.

Where the question of some document is concerned, the
book shall be handed over to the members of delegation.
They can verify and, the can say, they can tell the witness
that it exists or it does not exist.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I was saying,
Sir, I told the witness that you first verify it whether this
statement exist in the book or not and, after that, if he wants
time to explain, by all means he....
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Mr. Chairman: That is far the witness to reply
there and then or, if he likes, he can give explanation

afterwards. That is up to the witness.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I say.
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Mr. Chairman: If he like, he can explain; if he

does not like, he may not explain.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the witness) That is up

to you. But, first, we will not proceed further if you say it
does not exist- this statement.
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Naturally, you can ask for time.
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Mr. Chairman: I may also remind honourable
Members of the House that there are two types of references
being asked. One for one referneces, there are available the
reference books....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I said.
Mr. Chairman: ... For the witnesses themselves...
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, there are two ways of
looking at it. There are questions that could be answered
straightaway, there is no reason to ask for time....
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Mr. Chairman: No reason.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... as I have said. But if a
question requires an answer which requires some research
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and further work or further authority, then naturally some

time would be given.
Mr. Chairman: The witness shall be given

opportunity; and for those books and for those references
for which books are not available or in the possession of the
witness, then the witness can say, "I will check it up."
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, all these books or in the
possession of the witness. They are presumed to be because
these are the writings of....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our possession but not at
this place.
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Mr. Chairman: So, we will make a distinction of
those books, which are available in the house....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That has been given.
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And now, Mirza Sahib, please....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The writing is admitted that
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Mr. Chairman: Next writing. Because, for the
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present, we will confine only to these four or five references.
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He has to refer to one or witness two other
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423
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is.... (To Mr.
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Mr. Chairman: For the time being, no. The

delegation is permitted to leave and to report at 6:00.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The edition Mirza Sahib
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Mr. Chairman: To report at 6:00 p.m. The
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---------PRODUCTION OF REFERENCES/QUOTATIONS
BEFORE THE DELEGATION
Mr. Chairman: I would not take more than two
minutes everything would be clear.
424
I would request at least those honourable
members, those who associated themselves with the
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Questions comm ittee, o r members of the Steering

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We should not cut a sorry figure before the
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The change of edition, or print at Rabwah or Qadian
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Mr. Chairman: The rest should not be reported.
The Reporters would leave the Hall.
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---------The special Committee adjourned for lunch break to
re-assembled.
---------The Special Committee re-assembled after the lunch break,

Mr. Chaiman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.
Mr. Chairman: Still the quorum is not complete.
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(The Delegation entered the chamber)
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428

GROUP DELEGATION
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, are you ready
with some of the replies?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then please read out the
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I wanted to sum up the

position. For two days, I have been citing authorities from
your religious literature, Mirza Sahib....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have been trying to

explain them.
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Prayers.
465
The question of the Attorney- General remains
unanswered. The witness may reply to that question. The

question is: if the witness dubs anybody non- muslims,
whether that person has a right to ask them or not?
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---------(The Delegation left the Chamber)
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---------(The Special Committee re- assembled after Maghreb

prayers Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair)
---------Mr. Chairman: Should we call them? (Pause)
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Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman a point of
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Mr. Chairman: No, no, this is no point of

explanation, Chaudhry Sahib, this you can talk to the
Attorney- General privately.
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leave: to report tomorrow at 10:00 a.m.
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REVIEW OF PROCEDURE AND PROGRESS

OF CROSS- EXAMINATION
Mr. Chairman: Now we can discuss for a few
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The Attorney- General, if he likes can continue with

the same procedure of question answer and the explanation
or, if he likes, the Steering Committee can meet, whatever he
likes. I would like it as he says, because I had made a
promise that, after three days, we will review the situation. I
would like to hear the Attorney- General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will try to explain because
there is some difficulty. I cannot say in advance where I am
proceeding because much depends on answers...
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Mr. Chairman: You should not tell your strategy
you need not disclose the strategy.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... but I am halfway
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. Then, tomorrow evening, we
shall again review the situation. There is no need of the
Steering Committee meeting tomorrow.
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Mr. Chairman: This is uncalled for; these
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A witness is entitled to certain consideration if he

says that he is not feeling well. One thing more I want to
say. So far as the stretegy is concerned, the House has
complete faith in the Attorney General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am very grateful, Sir. The
thing is this: there are two difficulties- One is that many
honourable members have asked many questions. I am
trying to fit in those in various subjects.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, there is a subject of
"Kufr" There is the subject of his claim and right that "If I
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am a Musalman, nobody has a right to call me that I am not

a Musalman" and I am saying "Whether you conced the
same right to others? If you call others that they are
"Kafir", then they have a right to call you Kafir." That is
very obvious. Now we are in the grip of that subject.
Apart from that, Now comes the question of
"Jihad". That is a different subject because if somebody
devices essentials of Islam then he is "Munkir". That will
come in a different way.
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Similaryly, what he did about the British....
Mr. Chairman: No, no. You know better how to

put questions. We want only one thing. What the desire of
the House is that when a definite question is put. Now, we
are confirming them: the witness they should first answer
the Attorney General.
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501
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My own viewpoint is
that if he does not answer at that. I will leave the subject;

then come back.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, then again come back; and
then to be taken unaweres. One thing I want to ask one

more question that, tomorrow, we will not be able to finish
it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not think so.
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Mr. Chairman: I do not think so; we do not think

so. So, the Lahore Party, which we had called for
tomorrow.....
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(Interruption)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not even Friday.
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Mr. Chairman: Not even Friday, so, they may be

informed that....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Saturday or Monday.
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Mr. Chairman: Saturday or on 20th, according

to... or not even on Saturday. So, it will not be tomorrow.
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Then we can formulate and study all the aspects.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. We must have some break.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, my own view is that.... I
do not know if our witness is coming from Lahore.... Now a
Lot of things that we have on record, we will have to get out
of Lahori Party.
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Mr. Chairm an: Yes. So, tomorrow, I will
announce....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtirar: So, we can fully prepare

after we have read then evidence; then I will ask the
questions. We should not do it in a hurry.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, we are not in a hurry.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We can have a break for
ten days in between.
Mr. Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It makes no difference. We
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can examine them later; and that will take a day or so.
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Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow I will be able to tell the
honourable Members the tentative programme also; and

then we will discuss it. In the meantime, the Lahori Party
may be stopped form coming tomorrow, yes. Now I want
to....
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir a minute.
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(Mian Muhammad Attaullah stood up)
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Mr. Chairman: Mian Attaullah.
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro:
My
submission, Sir....
Mr. Chairman: I have given the floor to Mian

Attaulah. Then afterward....
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Mr. Chairman: Haji Maula Bakhsh Soomro.
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir... the
expression that there is going to be ten days' break, from
which date?
It is lying in abeyance. My submission is that the
continuity should not be broken. Only for two or three days
you can.
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Mr. Chairman: No, We will finish one subject
and then we will start the other subject. Continuity will not
be broken, take it for granted, continuity shall not be
broken. We cannot leave it in the middle; we cannot leave
the witness....
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, ten days'
break is a long period. My submission is....
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Mr. Chairman: Haji Sahib, I may tell you that

this witness will finish. It may take us ten days. And after
that we will think, because you need time for preparation.
You do not know how much hard labour the Questions
Committee and the Attorney- General have put in: You can
ask Mufti Mahmood.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I want to explain to
Haji Sahib that after this record is prepared... last night, we
received the record at half past two.... Only the first day's
proceedings... Now unless we read it all....
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Mr. Chairman: There lies a great difficulty: we
have no automatic reporting machine.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... and prepare our case

accordingly.
Mr. Chairman: Hakim Muhammad Sardar.
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Hakim Sardar Muhammad: I want to bring it
to the notice of this honourable House that the main

question. I should say, before the Special Committee or the
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Assembly is as to what is the status of a person who does not

believe in the finality of the Prophethood. The question or
that point is still untouched.
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Mr. Chairman: It will come; it will be taken up. It
will come at its proper place. And Maulana Zafar Ahmad
Ansari and you may not be knowing at what time the
qeustion is put.
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Yes, Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari.
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505
better. Now, the stage has come when only oral answers and
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would like to say anything?
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Mr. Chairman: No, no, most welcome. Thank you
very much. We shell Tomorrow at 10:00 am.
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(The Special Committee of whole House adjourned
to meet at ten of the Clock, in the morning, on Thursday,
the 8th August, 1974.)
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Qaumi Assembly Report - 01

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

Monday, August 5. 1974.

The Special Committee of the Whole House of the

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

PROCEDURE OF CROSS EXAMINATION

Mr. Chairman: I think we will start just with in 5

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

anything to say? Have you anything to add?

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

Mr. Chairman: Now we will start the proceedings.

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

METHOD OF RECORDING THE

Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney General. For

proceedings are going to be lengthy. I think if the Attorney

Rana Muhammad Hanif Khan: He might face

Mr. Chairman: It is up to him. It is up to the

Attorney General, because we allowed the witness even to

Mr. Chairman: It is up to him

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General of

The Mike .....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:

The mike is all right, but the ....

( 'p & :}[ )

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:

Will you .....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:

No, it's all right.

The member can use the

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will be asking you certain

inference as it considers appropriate from your refusal to

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

5th Aug, 1974 No:01

was his education, the family background and the date of

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are Mirza Ghulam

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: His son's son?

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: His son's son.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please give us

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN