H

JANET BIGGS

ART IN AMERICA

95

MORE IS

Opposite and
following page,
facsimile of Barbara
Roses article
ABC Art,
published in the
October-November
1965 issue of
A r t in America.

The author of a landmark 1965 article on new aesthetic

tendencies then emerging in New York recalls a more
intimate art world, where critical writing thrived in the
absence of market pressures.
Barbara Rose interviewed by William S. Smith

BARBARA ROSE
is an art historian
and critic.
See Contributors
page.

PU B LISH ED IN A rt in America 50 years ago this month,

Barbara Roses ABC A rt takes stock of a new sensibility
evident in the work of artists ranging from Yvonne Rainer to
Andy Warhol. In the sprawling piece, Rose extols the impor
tance of the empty, repetitious, uninflected art then being
produced by dancers, musicians, painters, sculptors and poets
in New York. More than a survey of art-world trends ABC
A rt is an attempt to define a Zeitgeist that had given rise to
expressions of blank, neutral, mechanical impersonality.
A precocious critic, Rose was in her 20s when she penned
the essay. The New York art world was small back thena
handful of galleries, a few curators clued in about contemporary
art, a couple of bars where everyone metand Rose was in the
center of it. She appeared in a Warhol film, studied art history
at Columbia with Meyer Schapiro and contributed criticism to
every important art magazine, from A rt International to Artforum.
The artists she discusses in ABC A rtand to whom she is
obviously sympatheticcomprised her community. One senses
that her analysis was sharpened in conversations after Rainers
performances at Judson Memorial Church, with Warhols crew in
the booths of Maxs Kansas City, during openings at Leo Castelli
Gallery and at home with her then-husband Frank Stella.
Reading ABC Art today, it can seem as if Rose elides selfevident aesthetic divisions, such as the one between Pop art and
Minimalism. But the essay is really about a broad generational shift
that cuts across the now-familiar art historical categories that have
since been codified into received wisdom through countless gradschool seminars. Roses essay describes, above all, the wholesale
collapse of the values that had sustained the Abstract Expression
ists. One might as easily construe, she writes, the new, reserved

96

OCTOBER 2015

impersonality and self-effacing anonymity as a reaction against

the self-indulgence of an unbridled subjectivity, just as one might
see it in terms of a formal reaction to the excesses of painterliness.
A correction was happening in a culture that had for two decades
fetishized heroic manifestations of unbridled subjectivity until
they had become cliches rendered in increasingly mannered smears
of paint. W hat made this correction hard to parseleading other
critics to lazily describe cool art or idiot art or know-nothing
nihilismwas that its arrival was accompanied by few declara
tions of triumphalism or fireworks of any kind:
It was almost as if, toward the Gotterdammerung of the
late Fifties, the trumpets blared with such an apocalyptic
and Wagnerian intensity that each moment was a crisis and
each act a climax. Obviously, such a crisis climate could
hardly be sustained; just to be able to hear at all again,
the volume had to be turned down, and the pitch, if not
the instrument, changed.
Rose cites a few older artists who anticipated this shift,
opening the essay with a discussion of Marcel Duchamp and
Kasimir Malevich, figures who reject and exclude from their
work many of the most cherished premises of Western art
in favor of an art stripped to its bare, irreducible minimum.
According to Rose, the rationalism of Duchamp and the
austere mysticism of Malevich were later synthesized in the
work of Ad Reinhardt, whose irony, aloofness, independence
and ideas about the proper use of art, which he has stubbornly
held to be non-commercial and non-utilitarian, are precisely
the qualities the young admire.

ABC AR T
Superficially as simple, factual,
bland and boring as a childs
repeated shrilling of the alphabet,
the work of a number of American
artists of a new young generation
seems aimed at denying the
emotionalism of its abstract
expressionist predecessors and
glorifying the minimumor pure
nothingness. The article and the
artists statements on the next
pages throw light on how and why.
Barbara Rose

' ;ThpSelected Writing*!

1'>>' Allen Mandelbaa^J
CoPJ'right 1954, i960 bj;u|
& 1962 by Musa MeKjJ
x ^9e 43: Reprinted
"Elated by Wallace 1**
" :Ht 1955 by Wallace^
. J'raukenberg.
'Robert Price, copy
5965 by Barbara <
Stanley Kunite, Pu')
' Stanley KuniH-
f3e 5.1: BeplffiT
S sd o re Roetlikes
r^kke. Page 55: W p
. S t 50 : Prom "W* l

*** Seghers, E1^

1 am curious to know what would

happen if art were suddenly seen for what
it is, namely, exact information of how
to rearrange onefs psyche in order to
anticipate the next blow from our own
extended faculties ...A t any rate, in
experimental art, men are given the exact
specifications of coming violence to their
own psyches from their own counterirritants or technology... But the counterirritant usually proves a greater plague
than the initial irritant, like a drug habit."
MARSHALL MC LUHAN,

Understanding Media, 1964

How do you like what you have.
This is a question that anybody can
ask anybody. A sk it.
-G ERTRUD E STEIN ,

Lectures in America, 1935

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OCTOBER 2015

MORE IS LESS

R o b ert H uot:
D ydon, 1965,
acrylic on canvas,
80 by 120 inches.
C o u rte sy
A le x a n d e r/H e a th
C ontem porary,
R oanoke, Va.

H
ABC A rt also points to a healthier moment in art
publishing. Though the art market was anemic, publications
like A. i.A. were thrivingbuoyed, Rose now believes, by funds
supplied by the U.S. government to promote avant-garde art
as Cold W ar propaganda. I ts hard to imagine a writer today
pitching a piece like this, and many editors might hesitate
before green-lighting a sweeping proposal to synthesize such
topics as the yearnings of Malevichs Slavic soul and the socalled contentless novels of Alain Robbe-Grillet.The audacity
of Roses brief is even more remarkable considering that the
young historian had few vetted treatises of art theory to guide
her in this pioneering effort and scant authorities to cite and
reference. Instead, her argument is bolstered by a patchwork of
quotations from a pantheon of literary heros and cult philoso
phers: Robbe-Grillet, Samuel Beckett, Gertrude Stein and
Ludwig W ittgenstein.
Interspersed within Rosess text are pages containing images
of the work under discussion paired with extended artistsstate
ments. The layout balances Roses analysis with the artistsown
words. (Or maybe it puts the two kinds of writing in competi
tion.) Either way, it is an appropriate format for representing a
group of artists known for their incisive use of language, a trait
inspired perhaps by what Rose calls Reinhardts legendary writ
ings handed down from the scriptorium.
W hen I spoke with Rose in her Manhattan apartment in
late August, she suggested that there was something distinctly
American about the work she discussed in 1965, which may have
made A. iA. an appropriate venue for the piece. She wasnt seeking
to identify a triumph of American culture; on the contrary, the
distinctiveness was related to a feeling of raw negativity.

The Vietnam War escalated rapidly over the months she

composed and edited the essay. During the spring and sum
mer of 1965, Operation Rolling Thunder, a massive bombing
campaign, was initiated and the first battalions of U.S. combat
troops landed in Da Nang. In the U.S., Malcolm X was assas
sinated, the Civil Rights movement was reaching a crucial stage
and Watts was set on fire. Though Rose did not address this
upheaval directly in her article, the implicit sense of refusal and
protest is there. The piece ends darkly, with a discussion of the
morbid speeches Rainer delivered in the midst of her dances
and Robert Morriss proposal to build a massive gravesite.
Afullfacsimile ofthe 1965 article is available at artinamericamagazine.com.

WILLIAM SMITH How did this essay come about?

BARBARA ROSE None of my friends could sell anything,
so it was really propaganda for their work. That was a large part
of the impulse! And, of course, I was interested in bigger issues.
It was a Zeitgeist article. It was about the spirit of the times, or at
least my perception of it. The reason I wrote for A. iA. was Jean
Lipman, the editor at the time. Jean and I were friends and she
would basically publish anything I wrote. And it wasnt like she
gave me an assignment; I wrote about what I wanted. This article
could have been called Art Barbara Likes, Books Barbaras
Reading, Movies Barbaras Seen, Music Barbara Listens To.
SMITH W ho decided on ABC?
ROSE Jean came up with the title. I first saw it when the
article came out in print; I have to say that I cringed a bit.
SMITH Would you have preferred something related to
Minimalism?

ABC ART

ART IN AMERICA

99

We w ere in terested in the con crete, the real. We didnt w ant

illu sio n s. We w anted a real object w ith real properties.

Dan Flavin: icon V

(Corans Broadway
Flesh), 1962, oil
on cold gesso on
masonite, porcelain
receptacles, pull
chains and clear
incandescent candle
bulbs, 31% by 31%
by 9% in. Stephen
Flavin/Artists Rights
Society (ARS),
New York. Courtesy
David Zwirner, New
York and London.

ROSE N ot at all. The artists didnt think they were M inimal

artists. I didnt think they were M inimal artists. Once the article
came out, the journalists decided this was a movement and they
started talking about Minimalism. Journalists need a nice little
slot to put things in. For example, Abstract Expressionism never
existed. It didnt fit anybody. It was the New York School, which
includes the de Kooning gestural side, the Newman Color Field
side and then Reinhardts push toward the monochrome.
SMITH So w hat did bind the artists that you discuss in
the piece?
ROSE You mean, what made it possible for a group o f artists
to have a dialogue and to take huge risks at that time? A lot o f it
had to do with the fact that there was a real community. None of
these people made a living from their art; not one of them. The
people I wrote about all knew each other, and I knew them. We
were friends. W e just showed up at each others apartments, often
at dinnertime. W e borrowed money from each other. W ed all
go to the same openings. We all would go to La M onte Youngs
Dream House. We all went to Judson Memorial Church to see the
performances there. W e all went to Happenings.
Frank Stella and I lived off U nion Square, in w hat was
basically a slum. Two streets up were D on Judd, Jo Baer and
Yayoi Kusama, all o f w hom lived and worked in the same
building. D on has to get credit and this would surprise
everybody for supporting women artists. H e was the biggest
supporter o f Jo and Yayoi. D on would say if youre coming
to see me we have to go to Jos studio and to Yayois studio. I
loved Jos paintings the w hite field and black borders but
I didnt understand how they worked. I m now beginning to
understand them ; its taken me a lot o f time.
S M IT H It sounds like a small world.
ROSE I remember Bob Motherwell saying that the art
world is only 100 people. It was, maybe, during the New York
School era. By the time I wrote ABC A rt, maybe it was 500
people, including the dealers. There were no collectors, really.
Youd have to be crazy to buy this stuff. The materials people were
using for the work in this article were junk! I think I illustrated
the first fabricated pieces Judd was able to make. Before that, he
was making things out o f wood. M orris made all of his work by
himself out of plywood.
SMITH W h at was the state o f art publishing?
ROSE The first criticism I wrote was in Spanish. I had
been on a Fulbright to study in Spain, and I ended up writing
La Cronica de Nueva York for a magazine called Goya. Then
M ichael Fried, who was Franks friend from Princeton, intro
duced me to A rt International, which was based in Switzerland.
M ichael was writing the London Letter and I ended up as their
New York correspondent around 63. A rt International was an
important magazine. I published one o f the first articles on Pop
there. A nnette Michelson wrote quite a bit for them, too, when
she was still living in Paris. Around the same time, M ax Kozloff,
who was also a graduate student, called me and asked if I wanted
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O C T O B E R 2015

to write for this new magazine in San Francisco called Artforum.

Max and I eventually became contributing editors.
SMITH You were also a contributing editor utA .iA . by 1965.
ROSE That was based on my relationship with Jean, who
was an incredible editor and very enthusiastic about my work.
A.iM. has a different history, which I only found out ex post facto.
The magazine was funded largely by the CIA.
SMITH I dont believe that.
ROSE It was during the Cold War. I didnt know this at
the time, but the real money came from the U.S. Inform ation
Agency. Serge G uilbaut docum ented similar cultural funding
schemes in H ow N ew York Stole the Idea o f Modern A r t [1983].
It was a propaganda effort to sell A m erican art abroad. The idea
was we were free; they were in chains. L ook at our great art.
Look at our great culture. L ook at all o f the w onderful things
we do. A nd then look at the horrible Russian propaganda.
There was no directive from the governm ent about w hat was
going to be published. The magazine was supposed to represent
a flowering o f Am erican culture. They had a lot o f money to
spend, and they spent it.
SMITH Does that mean you could make a living as an art
writer?
ROSE T ie pay was much more than w hat you get now. I was
paid $1,000 per article, in 1965. [The equivalent of $7,600 today.]
SMITH You are fairly critical in the essay about the excesses
o f the New York School. But given that the art world was so small,
they must have had some influence on you.
ROSE Two o f the New York school painters really liked
young people and helped us all a great deal. I can remember
Barney and Annabel Newman taking Frank and me to dinner;
food was a really big deal because nobody had any. But above all,
Ad Reinhardt was supportive. H is studio was on lower Broadway.
All you had to do was show up. A nd he loved it when you did. H e
would paint while you were there, talk to you, and keep painting.
I used to visit often, and so did Bob Morris. I know Judd knew
Newman quite well. I d say Judd is a Newman person and M orris
is a Reinhardt person.
SMITH W h at about Clement Greenberg, who was an
im portant mentor to peers o f yours like Fried and Rosalind
Krauss? D id you discuss your article with him?
ROSE Everyone was connected to Greenberg because
Clem would have his little M aoist sessions in his apartment. H e
loved young people, but in retrospect I realize he was looking to
brainwash disciples. A t a certain point I thought, W ait a minute!
T tis is nonsense. You had to denounce certain people and agree
with Clem. O ne was A1 H eld and the other was Reinhardt, which
left me conflicted. Clem would go: A d s a stinker, right? And
everybody would repeat: A ds a stinker. A nd I d say, No, A ds not
a stinker. A nd this would go on. Clem was a father figure; he was
much older, and hed been right about a lot of things. H e had no
interest in the artists I wrote about. Either he didnt know about
them, or it simply wasnt the work he cared about.

M O RE IS L E SS

k- 1

Larry Zox:
Untitled, 1964,
Liquitex, 60 by 66
inches; from the
Rotation series.
Courtesy Stephen
Haller Gallery,
New York.

SMITH Many of the artists you discuss were also writers.

ROSE If you had something to say youd publish it, and
the critics who knew each other and the artists would all get
togetherat Maxs Kansas City, usuallyto argue about these
things. Don wrote a lot for Arts Magazine. Bob Morris wrote a
great deal as well. Writing was the only thing that paid back then.
You have to understand, most of the people I am writing about
herethey are intellectuals. Claes Oldenburg, who I should have
included in the piece, went to Yale. Stella went to Princeton.
Judd went to Columbia. Morris had an M A in art history.
SMITH You could have called the essay Ivy League Art.
ROSE It wasnt really that. It was just people who were
educated, who took the time to read difficult texts like those by
Wittgenstein and to actually respond to the ideas in these sub
stantial philosophical positions. Everybody went to Beckett plays
and Antonioni films. Everybody was reading Ernst Gombrich on
Gestalt psychology, Merleau-Ponty on phenomenology ...
SMITH And Gertrude Stein.
ROSE I was interested in Gertrude. Gertrude Stein was
the writer who first articulated an idea about writing based on
simple sentence structure, repetitions anti-Rococo. She was
also interested in pragmatism, which is an American philoso
phy. There was an interest in American culture on every level.
I now realize that we were looking at Native American art a

102

OCTOBER 2015

lotthe abstract imagery, the geometric design. We thought

the Indians should have won and not the cowboys. We were
dealing with this cowboy mentality that took the form of
imperialistic aggression. But even still there was this interest
in American culture and how it was different from European
culture. There was a very conscious effort to make American
art. It seems kind of strange now.
SMITH But you start the essay talking about two Europe
ans: Duchamp and Malevich.
ROSE Well, remember, Duchamp was still alive and in
New York. We knew him. He went to the Happenings, and
youd see him at certain openingsbasically shows of the Pop
artists. Constructivism was more obscure then. It was a bunch
of Commies, after all. But in fact Alfred Barr had bought some
Constructivist art and it was on display at MoMA. In 1962,
Camilla Gray published The Great Experiment, which was
illustrated, and that was one of the first books with Construc
tivist art that we saw. Russian Constructivism was important
because it was new to us. We wanted to get away from Cubism.
That was old; it was French and contrived. Surrealism was a big
no-no. We had no time for anything that was related to fantasy,
dream life. No, we were interested in the concrete, the real. We
didnt want illusions. We wanted a real object with real proper
ties, a physical thing in a physical space.

MORE IS LESS

SMITH But there are some mystical aspects to the work in

this article. La Monte Youngs, for example.
ROSE His work would put you in a trance state. The
performance at Dream House was continuous. There were
mattresses on the floor. I remember Frank and I taking our
childwe took her to all of these things. I was the only person
with a child who was involved in Dream House. The mystical
tendencies in Youngs drone music can be related to Transcen
dentalism. And they are linked specifically to Zen, which had
a big resurgence in New York thanks to John Cage. Reinhardt
approached this idea also when he started making the black
paintings over and over again. It was a statement that there was
no progress no political progress, thats for sure.
SMITH You describe the work in ABC A rt as negative.
ROSE It was negative. It was a rejection a philosophical
rejection. It was informed by Wittgensteins philosophy, which
was very critical of the idea that someone could communicate
his or her emotions. Well, you couldnt. We knew that. We
thought all of Harold Rosenbergs talk about Action Painting
was rhetorical nonsense.
SMITH Its interesting that the art is mute even as its
being made by vocal political activists.
ROSE The Zeitgeist was defined by the Vietnam War. All
these artists were involved in the antiwar movement in one way
or another. There was an artist brigade, led by Judd and Rein
hardt, in the anti-Vietnam protest marches. Jasper Johns made
the poster, the moratorium flag, which reversed the colors of the
American flag. Its a symbolic way of saying that America had
turned into the opposite of what it was.

SMITH You end the article on a dark note, citing Carl

Andres solution for war: Let them eat what they kill.
ROSE In the beginning of the 60s everything was
wonderfulwe were going to change the world. It was uto
pian and progressive. Then Jack Kennedy was assassinated.
I remember the day. Frank and I were pushing our baby
carriage down Fifth Avenue toward his studio in Chinatown.
We noticed that all the flags were at half-mast. I asked
someone about it, and they told us the president had been
shot and that he was dead. Frank turned to me and said,
Well, its all over. I asked him, W hat? W h a ts all over?
H e said, America. He was right. Everybody kept working,
pushing forward, but once you had the assassinations in 68
it was really over. That was also the year Andy was shot. That
was the crucial year, when it all fell apart.
SMITH Do you think the kind of community that you
survey in ABC A rt could still exist today?
ROSE I think there is a history of art, of which most
people todaythe artists I talk tohave no conception.
The M FA programs used to invite me to give lectures. But
I stopped giving them once the questions were all about,
How do you make it? How do you get a career? W h ats the
strategy? Anybody whos thinking about a career or mak
ing a living out of art is already not an artist. G et a day job.
Really. I f you really want to be in New Yorkwhich is also
problematic at this pointyou have to find some other way
of making money. Contemporary art is about taking risks,
experimenting and malting something that you are obsessed
with. O

Dancers performing
Yvonne Rainers
Trio A, 1966, at
Dia:Beacon, NY.,
May 11,2012.
Photo Paula Court.
Courtsey Dia Art
Foundation, New
York.

ABC ART

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