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ALAN JONES: What about this mutiny on the ocean? What is the update, and what do
you know on that?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well, no more than the reports. I mean, obviously while we're in
touch with the Indonesian authorities, they don't brief us on all of these deve
lopments. But I'm pleased that we haven't seen a further loss of life because I
think the events of last week were tragic and one wouldn't want to see those sor
ts of things happening again.
And as far as I'm concerned, if we were to relax our approach and encourage more
people to think that they should come this way, we would only ! be exposing mor
e children to a possible death in the same way that these children have died.
ALAN JONES: There is talk today that two Indonesian police officers have been ar
rested over the fishing boat that sank on October 19 with only 44 of its passeng
ers surviving. Can you confirm that?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: I can't, but it's a matter for the Indonesian authorities to, of
course, progress. They've been obviously very concerned about many of the claim
s that have been made - I would be - and they've sought to deal with it.
And our view all along was that it was a matter for the Indonesians to handle. I
t's within their boundaries, they're a sovereign nation and they've got responsi
bility in relation to any complaints that are made about their law enforcement o
fficers.
ALAN JONES: There's talk of 3,000 more boat people expected to head for Australi
a in the next few weeks and the Indonesian Government saying there are 4,000 ill
egal immigrants waiting to sail! to Australia. Is that consistent with your inte
lligence?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Not quite. I mean, the sorts of numbers that we've known to be i
n the hands of smugglers - that is, we've identified particular smugglers who mi
ght be planning to bring boats to Australia - don't suggest the numbers are imme
diately as high as that. But the reports of up to 4,000 in Indonesia and possibl
y another 4,000 in Malaysia are very real.
ALAN JONES: Is there a need to re-examine the quotas on refugees who are found t
o be genuine? We allow in about 12,000 a year.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well, I mean, Mr Beazley's not arguing that we should and the re
ason he's not is that there is a very heavy cost. And it's one of the draw facto
rs, of course. I mean, for us it's $30 million per thousand on the forward estim
ates. So I mean, you can decide that you're going to spend that money on additio
nal refugees being resettled in Australia, but I look at what's happening at the
moment in Pakistan, f! or instance, and I think to myself, well, what would $30
million do in terms of looking after millions of people who are in dire straits
.
And I think that certainly the approach being taken by the international communi
ty at this stage is that an evacuation of modest numbers of people from Pakistan
is not going to deal with the very much larger crisis that Pakistan faces. And
I think it has to be seen in that context.
And there's no amount of people that we could take that would limit, I think, th
e groups of people with money to travel and still vulnerable to the blandishment
s of smugglers.
ALAN JONES: Okay. Well, down to the thing that has concerned my listeners - and
I have been inundated and I suppose you have as well. But they're asking me how
much longer that Australians have to cop the kind of stuff that this Sheik Taj e
l-Din Al Hilaly went on with last week arguing that you and the Prime Minister a
nd government policy had "opened the gates of death! ."
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well look, I wasn't very impressed with the comments, as you can
imagine, and I'd seen the Sheik several hours before he made them and didn't ma
ke them to my face.
I said - look, one of the things in your introduction I'd just pick up. I think
it's unfair to say that all Muslims take the view that the government policy in
this area is wrong. Many Muslims I know very strongly support the approach that
we take because they believe we're a
ALAN JONES: But this bloke calls himself the spiritual leader.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Yeah well, he does that but his position is not as sound as that
and he's been - essentially, I think there are very significant splits within t
he Islamic community.
ALAN JONES: Well, Alan Ramsey who's been around Canberra longer than you have and that's saying something
PHILIP RUDDOCK: I saw Alan
ALAN JONES: Well, he wrote at the weekend - and I just want to take you through
some of this beca! use my listeners want some answers - that 11 years ago, as Op
position spokesman on immigration, you pursued questions never answered as to wh
y the Hawke Labor Government granted this bloke, Al Hilaly, permanent residency
in 1990, that eight years earlier, he said, the Sheik had arrived in Sydney from
Egypt under the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils on a three-month visa
and his family never left.
Now there were several convictions, intellectual convictions against this bloke
and many want to know how he still remains in the light of saying the things he
said.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well, I mean, Alan Ramsey's story went through it and I think th
ere were some other stories at the same time, that related what happened. I mean
, this
ALAN JONES: He was accused of inciting racial hatred.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Yes, and Chris Herford, who was the former Minister, determined
that in character terms he should not remain in Australia.
ALAN JONES: That's r! ight.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: And he issued a deportation order.
ALAN JONES: That's in 1986.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: And that was overturned because there were representations made
by essentially the Lebanese Muslim Association in Sydney to the Members of Parli
ament - I think Leo McLeay was one and Paul Keating was another.
ALAN JONES: Alan Ramsey said that Hilaly had been supported by strong New South
Wales and federal ALP lobbying and survived.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well, as I understand it, there was very strong lobbying, and I
spoke to Robert Ray at the time. He made the decisions that he would be able to
continue
it, for
a change
rned and
travelled to C
learnt of it the grounds of
Ray for months
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well, I know none of that. But ! I know that Ray was not keen to
make the decision, but I know the decision was made and I know when I came Mini
ster in 1996 it was a fait accompli.
I mean, citizenship is something that cannot be revoked unless it was initially
obtained by fraud, and there is no suggestion here the information that you are
speaking of was not known to the Government at the time.
ALAN JONES: Right. But Ramsey does say in September 1990, when Hand then approve
d Hilaly's permanent residence, you, Philip Ruddock, sought under Freedom of Inf
ormation "all briefings and advisings" in the "grant of resident status to Hilal
y and his family." And you were quoted as saying the Minister must be able to ju
stify the decision, and yet you've never had those questions answered.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: No. I mean, you might - the question I would expect from you is
why I haven't asked for those papers now and what would I do with it. And essent
ially I've come to the view that if I can't do anythin! g about the decision, it
's going to be pretty silly of me just seeking to look at the papers.
I mean, I know of the concerns. There were security concerns and they were menti
oned in that article as well as the vilification of a segment of our community.
And I make the point every time I speak in front of Hilaly about the importance
of our culturally diverse society and what that means. And I make the point very
strongly that, you know, when you've settled in Australia, while we acknowledge
that people have different cultural backgrounds, we have an expectation that th
ey'll observe our laws.
And one of the things that disappoints me in relation to immigration laws is tha
t some people seem to think - and Hilaly is arguing this - are entitled to ignor
e our laws if they relate to immigration. And I don't think you have a society t
hat believes in the rule of law where you say, well, there are some laws that I'
ll obey and some that I won't.
ALAN JONES: But when ! a bloke says that the Prime Minister of a country has ope
ned the gates to death because asylum seekers have drowned, isn't this an incite
ment to mobilise his people against those who support the Government?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Look, I mean it is very clear that remarks of that sort, if they
were being made - and the sort of remarks that he's made elsewhere - would be m
atters that we would take into account under the character provisions if we were
dealing with a migration application de nevo. They are matters
ALAN JONES: He's already a permanent citizen.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: He's a permanent resident and citizen.
ALAN JONES: And citizen. But in January last year, is it right that he was sente
nced to a year in jail with hard labour after being convicted of smuggling antiq
uities from Egypt to Australia?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: I believe there was a conviction which he has appealed and that
appeal is still being dealt with.
ALAN JONES: And the Sheik's so! n and four other people were also jailed.
PHILIP RUDDOCK: I don't know about that, but I do know that those proceedings we
re taking place in Egypt and he was the subject of a conviction and that matter
has been appealed and that appeal is still being dealt with.
ALAN JONES: It's not fair to the Muslim community, surely, to be represented in
the public place by people who speak like this, is it?
PHILIP RUDDOCK: Well, I think the Islamic community have been very concerned abo
ut this matter themselves and he's been at times relieved of some of his respons
ibilities. And as I understand it, he is no longer the Mufti - which was the ter
ms used - for the Supreme Spiritual Leader in Australia. He is just one of a num
ber of imams.
ALAN JONES: Good on you. Thank you for your time because many of my listeners wr
ote and asked me to ask you those questions. I've done that and you've answered
them. I thank you for that.