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UNITED STATES TAX COURT - TRIAL

ESTATE (OF MICHAEL J. JACKSON DECEASED)

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EXECUTORS: JOHN G. BRANCA. AND JOHN MCCLAIN

COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE (IRS)

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February 10th 2017

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Presiding Judge Mark V. Holmes

Jacksons estate is represented by Avram Salkin, Charles Paul Rettig, Steven Richard Toscher, R
obert S. Horwitz, Edward M. Robbins Jr., Sharyn M. Fisk and Lacey E. Strachan of Hochman Sa

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lkin Rettig Toscher & Perez PC, Paul Gordon Hoffman, Jeryll S. Cohen and Loretta Siciliano of
Hoffman Sabban & Watenmaker and Howard L. Weitzman of Kinsella Weitzman Iser Kump &
Aldisert LLP. ae
The
IRS is represented by its attorneys Donna F. Herbert, Malone Camp, Sebastian Voth, Jordan Mus
en and Laura Mullin.
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--------------------------------------------

Felix Sebacious(EX Bravado Vice Pres)

Declaration here
http://www.teammichaeljackson.com/declaration-of-sebacious-felix-bravado
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Judge Holmes: . Over to you, Mr. Weitzman.
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Mr. Weitzman: Yes. Mr. Sebacious, Your Honor.

Court Clerk: FELIX SEBACIOUS sworn in.

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Court Clerk: You may be seated, and if you could please state your name and address for the
record?
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A. Yes. Felix Sebacious. My address is ...

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DIRECT EXAMINATION
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Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Mr. Sebacious, what's your current occupation?
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A. I'm currently a senior vice president of Merchandise for Live Nation Merchandising.

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Q. And what does that mean exactly? That is, what is it you do?

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A. I run the Licensing Department for all the musical artists that we have under contract at Live
Nation Merchandise.

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Q. And is that in the area of what's commonly referred to as name and likeness?

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A. Yes.

Q. Prior to working at Live Nation, where did you work?

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A. I worked for the Bravado International Group.
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Q. How long did you work for Bravado?

A. Eight years.
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Q. And before you went to work for Bravado, just getting the background, what business were
you in?
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A. I ran a smaller merchandising company, a smaller competitor of Bravado Live Nation called
Blue Grape Merchandising. I did that for 13 years.
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Q. And briefly on your education, did you .... where did you complete high school?
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A. Brooklyn, New York.

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Q. I can kind of tell, and then any post-high school education?

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A. Yeah, I have a B. A. . in Psychology from the University of Rochester.

Q. After the University of Rochester, did you immediately go into the merchandising business?

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A. No. I went on the road as a touring musician for ten years.

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Q. What instrument did you play?

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A. I'm a bassist by trade, but a multi- instrumentalist.

Q. And did you tour with a particular group?

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A. Many different groups. I was what would be referred to as a side man.
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Q. Any groups I might recognize?

A. Probably not.
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Q. Okay. So now at Bravado, what was your responsibilities?

A. So I was the head of the Licensing Department at Bravado, and that meant that any of the
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artists signed to Bravado that we had licensing rights for I would seek out third party deals.
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Q. And what office did you work out of?

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A. Out of New York City. We had multiple offices during the eight years I was there.

Q. But you were generally based in New York City?

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A. Yes.

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Q. And could you describe a bit in more detail exactly what you did, what your responsibilities
were in the merchandise area when you worked with Bravado?

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A. Sure. So we would put together a licensing program for a specific artist. So let's call it Band
X. We would then go out and seek deals using the name, logo, likeness and image of Band X on
products that Bravado themselves did not manufacture directly. So for example, Bravado is an

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apparel manufacturer. So Bravado would not license out the apparel category, but we would
license out posters, we would license out slot machines, we would license out board games,
anything that could use the name, logo, likeness or image of the artist.

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Q. So in some instances, as I understand it, you'd manufacture the items and make deals with
people to put their name or likeness or to endorse the product?
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A. Oh so we would get the .... we would have to get approval from each of the musical artists
that we had under contract to approve first the concept of the product range, and then they'd have
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to approve the actual piece of artwork that their IP was used on.

Q. Did you all do merchandise for tours?

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A. Yes. We had four basic divisions. We had a tour merchandise division, a retail division, a
licensing division and e-Commerce division.

Q. And the e-Commerce division did what?

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A. They ran the official web stores of those artists that they had the contractual right to run the
web stores for.
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Q. And general merchandise was what?

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A. General merchandise I would consider ....

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Q. Retail merchandise.

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A. Yeah. I mean we kind of grouped the touring as one aspect, and then general merchandise
would be considered the other three areas, retail, licensing and e-Commerce.

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Q. Did you work with Michael Jackson?

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A. Yes.

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Q. And when did you work with Michael Jackson?

A. I started working with him prior to Michael's death. I can't give you the specific date. We
had a tour deal with Michael through AEG.
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Q. And so was it AEG that contacted you to work with Michael, or not contacted you
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personally, but contacted Bravado?

A. No. My assumption is that it was AEG who contacted Tom Bennett, who was my CEO.
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Q. And what was the first thing you were asked to do with respect to that relationship?

A. The first thing I was asked to do was after Michael died was to put together a projection of
what retail, basically retail sales would be and any possible licensing deals.
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Q. So let me just make sure I understand. You were not involved in the tour deal. Would that be
accurate?
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A. That's correct.
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Q. So you .... did you see any of the items that were designed or created for the tour deal, before
Michael died?

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A. Yes, I did.

Q. And how many items, just best guess?

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A. There was a book of approximately 300 plus items.

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Q. But you had no involvement with the implementation of the tour deal. Would that be
accurate?

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A. That's correct. ae
Q. So could you tell us then what you first did after Michael passed away with regards to
Bravado and merchandise?
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A. Certainly. On the Monday following Michael's passing, which I believe would have been the
29th of June ....
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Q. The 25th of June.

A. Well, he died on the 25th. I think that was a Thursday?

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Q. Correct.
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A. So the following Monday would be the 29th, I was asked to put together a projection by Tom
Bennett of what I thought the retail stores would purchase for Michael, as well as what type of
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licensees we could bring on board.

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Q. By the way, were you involved in any of the contractual negotiations or documentation of
the deal with Michael Jackson?

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A. No.

Q. So how did you go about doing that? Did you contact people or what type of research did

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you do?

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A. Yeah. So I contacted the major retailers that we have relationships with. I contacted a bunch
of independent sales agents that we used across the U.S., and the initial projection that I was
putting together was basically just for the United States and Canada.

lJa
Q. And did you receive any resistance from any of the people you contacted?

A. Yes.
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Q. And what type of resistance did you receive?

A. Walmart was the first retailer to come back and basically tell us that they weren't interested
in buying Michael Jackson product, which came as quite a shock and a surprise to us.
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Q. And did they tell you why?

A. Yes, and that was even more shocking. Their feeling was that the Michael Jackson brand was
not something that they felt was consistent with their consumer base, because of the alleged
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allegations of child molestation.

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Q. Now before the tour deal was made, did you discuss with anybody at Bravado the possibility
of doing a retail merchandising deal with Michael Jackson as well?
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A. Yes.
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Q. And did you do a retail merchandising deal with Michael Jackson in addition to the touring
merchandising deal?

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A. No.

Q. Why not?

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A. Tom Bennett asked me if I thought there was any retail interest after he was in the process of

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signing the tour deal, and I talked to several retailers and they expressed zero interest at that
particular point in time.

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Q. By the way, when you talk about Walmart, are they one of the bigger, big box retailers in the
world?
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A. Walmart is the biggest big box retailer in America, if not in the world.
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Q. And by "big box," you're referring to big brick and mortar structures?

A. They have thousands of stand-alone stores. They are easily the biggest retail customer that
we would sell any merchandise to.
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Q. So did you put together a post-death merchandising program?

A. Yes.
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Q. And what kind of response did you get to the small merchandising or retail, small retail
merchandising program?
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A. We got a lukewarm response to it, which also was surprising.

Q. And so did you place the items in various retail outlets?

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A. Yes.

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Q. And how widespread was the distribution?

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A. As widespread as we could at the time. I mean the retail marketplace in our world is split
into really four different areas.

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Q. And what are those areas?

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A. So the specialty market is the stores that you find as mall stores. So the Hot Topics, the
Spencers, the Urban Outfitters. Then the mid-tier stores are like a Kohl's or a J.C. Penney's or a
Forever 21 that have a lower price point. Then there's your department stores like a Macy's or a
Bloomingdale's or a Nordstrom's, and then finally you have your mass market big box retailers
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like a Walmart, K-Mart and a Target. So you know, we tried each of those different avenues. Met
with, you know, varying degrees of success.
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Q. So even though you weren't involved in the negotiation and the documenting of the contract,
were you aware as to whether or not advances were paid to Mr. Jackson before he died?
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A. Correct, yes I was.

Q. And were there advances paid to Mr. Jackson before he died?

A. No, there were not.

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Q. Were there advances paid to any entity after Mr. Jackson died?

A. There were advances paid to the Estate when the Estate merchandising deal was
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consummated.
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Q. And did you keep abreast of .... I'm sorry. One other question Your Honor, please. Were the
advances recoupable to the best of your understanding?

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A. Yes.

Q. And were you involved in discussions about recoupment of the advance, particularly to

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Michael Jackson's Estate?

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Mr. Voth: Objection, leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. Did you do anything in regard to recoupment of those advances?

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A. I was asked to put together projections that would show whether the deal would recoup or not
recoup.
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Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.
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Mr. Weitzman: And what did your projections show in regards to recoupment of the advance
that Bravado made to the Jackson Estate?
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Mr. Voth: Objection, Your Honor. This is cumulative given the testimony of Mr. Bennett
yesterday.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.

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A. So the projection that I put together showed the recoupment of approximately $12 million.
Now that doesn't meant that that is .... that's not factual. That was my best guess of what I
thought the different areas of business would do.
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Mr. Weitzman:
Q. And did the performance of the sale of the items live up to your expectations?
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A. No.

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Q. And was there an event that took place with respect to Mr. Jackson that helped in the
recoupment process?

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A. Well when the This Is It movie came out, we were finally able to get a small program into
Walmart, and we did a display in conjunction with the record label, where you could get the tee
shirts and the CD in the same display stand. That helped slightly. Really it was the slot machine

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deal with Bally Tech was the one deal that really aided in the recoupment process.

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Q. And what elements were involved in the slot machine deal with Bally?

A. There was music, publishing, video and then name and likeness rights.
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Q. And did that appear to expedite the recoupment process for Bravado?
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A. Yes.

Q. When did you leave Bravado?

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A. I left on February 15th of 2013.

Q. And when you left, had Bravado recouped from the advance they had given to the Michael
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Jackson Estate?
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A. No.
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Q. Are you aware if they have recouped?

A. Yes.
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Q. Have they?

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A. Yes.

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Mr. Weitzman: I need a moment, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: You may.

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Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, I don't have anything further.

Judge Holmes: Any cross, Mr. Voth?

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Mr. Voth: Yes, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Go ahead.

..
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CROSS EXAMINATION

Mr. Voth:
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Q. Good afternoon.
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A. Good afternoon.
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Q. Let's look at post-death Michael Jackson's death. So negotiations began with the Estate
immediately after his death; right?
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A. Not immediately after his death. The Estate wasn't formed yet.

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Q. Negotiations began with certain people with respect to Michael Jackson immediately after
his death?

A. I wasn't involved with the negotiations. That would have been Tom Bennett, my CEO.

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Q. Okay, and then was a .... and then in August of 2009, a contract was eventually finalized

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with the Estate of Michael Jackson and Bravado; correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 236-J, and specifically page one? So I'd like to go
paragraph three of Exhibit 236-J. Michael Jackson's name was not .... name and likeness was not
licensed for video games; correct?
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A. That's correct.

Q. Digital products?
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A. It would depend if you consider a slot machine a digital product or not.

Q. Okay, and looking at Exhibit 236-J, paragraph 3(d), digital products such as mobile,
electronic, wallpaper games, virtual, etcetera, those warrants were not licensed with respect to
name and likeness to Bravado; correct?
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A. I'm just reading it right now. It's been a while since I looked at this contract.
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Q. Sure.
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A. So my understanding of this contract was that the rights to those digital products or any of the
other items listed in (a) through (e) were retained by the Estate, but we had a working
relationship with the Estate that if any of those type of deals came across us, we were free to

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present them.

Q. So like associated merchandise in relationship to those deals?

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A. Well for example, if someone came to us with a mobile deal, we were allowed to then go to
the Estate and present that mobile deal to them.

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Q. Right. I'm looking at also paragraph 3(d), specifically name and likeness was not given for
films. I'm reading in part such as a film based on the concept of rehearsals for the This Is It

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concert series. Did I read that correctly?

A. Correct.
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Q. So at a broad perspective, in essence the Estate retained, reserved the right to provide a
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master license to third parties for certain digital products, films and video games; correct?

A. I wouldn't call it master license. I think the Estate reserved the rights to specific categories
that they could license out to other third parties.
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Q. Okay. So a specific license with respect to the categories that we've just discussed; correct?

A. Correct.
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Q. All right. So let's talk about Bravado's manufacturing. So Bravado manufactured on its own
certain Michael Jackson branded merchandise; correct?
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A. Tee shirts.

Q. So that would be like upper apparel?

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A. Yeah. I mean Bravado basically is and was a tee shirt manufacturer.

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Q. By 2011, there were at least 1,000 different Michael Jackson branded merchandise in that
category?

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A. I don't know.

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Q. Mr. Camp, can you please pull up Exhibit 596-R? It's also Bates number 4460, and
specifically it's page 1460 of the PDF file of that document. Do you recall submitting a witness
statement for this particular case?

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A. Yes, I do.
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Q. All right. So please take a moment to go to paragraph five. Mr. Camp, if you can slow down
to paragraph five of Exhibit 596-R, and please take a moment to read that to yourself and let me
know when you're done.
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A. I'm done through line seven.

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Q. Okay, and then if we .... Mr. Camp, could you go to page four of the witness statement, just
the signature page? And this is a statement that you executed in 2011; correct?

A. Correct.
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Q. Right. Now that you've read paragraph five of Exhibit 596-R, I'll ask you again if your
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memory has been refreshed. So there were at least 1,000 different Michael Jackson branded
merchandise products?
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A. I'm sure there were. If I said it in a witness statement in 2011 when I was at Bravado and
much closer to the Michael Jackson, I'm sure it's correct.
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Q. Okay. They were offered for sale through the Internet? Some of these items were offered for
sale through the Internet?

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A. Some items were offered for sale through the Internet, through the Michael Jackson official
web store. Some of the items were offered to retailers.

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Q. And so when we look at the Michael Jackson branded merchandise, that included his name?

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A. Yes.

Q. Certain variations of his name?

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A. Yes. ae
Q. Such as MJ?
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A. The King of Pop or MJ.

Q. Okay. His likeness and iconic poses?

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A. Correct.

Q. His signature?
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A. Yes.
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Q. Jackson logos such as MJ's dancing feet?

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A. Correct.
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Q. Mr. Weitzman asked you about this slot machine. Can you give us a visual of the slot
machine, as to what .... as to how Michael Jackson's likeness is displayed on the slot machine?

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A. Sure. So this slot machine was one of the first surround-sound chair slot machines. So it was
quite an innovative product that we came up with, and it used a lot of the video footage that was
licensed through his record label. So when you would spin the dials, you would get a video of

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Michael dancing from the Motown Awards, or there would be the Beat It video or various
Thriller videos. And then there would be drawings of Michael, drawings of the feet, the dancing
feet, the MJ logo, the King of Pop logo. So it was a combination of a lot of different elements
that made up this game.

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Q. So if a person is just walking by, how would they know this is a Michael Jackson slot

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machine?

A. You'd see a large image of Michael Jackson on the sides of the slot machine, and you would
hear the music. So you didn't have to be actually playing the game at the time for the music to be
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audio.
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Q. All right. Let's talk a little bit about Bravado's policing strategies, in order to be sure that
people are not using Michael Jackson unauthorized merchandise back when you were at
Bravado.
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A. Sure.

Q. So Bravado took action against those who sold unauthorized Michael Jackson products; is
that correct?
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A. Correct.
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Q. Even with respect to Michael Jackson- related products on eBay?

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A. Yes.
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Q. And Bravado also at the time had outside counsel that would insist in ensuring that people
weren't selling unauthorized merchandise of Michael Jackson?

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A. That's correct.

Q. And you don't recall .... please let me know. So it's my understanding that as of 2011,

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Bravado filed more than 50 lawsuits against more than 50 defendants?

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A. I'm not sure of the specific number, but that sounds ....

Q. Okay. So please think of .... sure. I'm sorry.

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A. I would say I'm not sure of the specific number.
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Q. Okay. So we're still at Exhibit 596-R. Please take a moment to read to yourself paragraph
seven of Exhibit 596-R please.
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A. The paragraph seems to end after the word "of." Where's the rest of it?
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Q. Mr. Camp, can you go to the next page please?

Ms. Herbert: It's not here.

Mr. Camp: I think it scanned in wrong.

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Mr. Voth: It's not scanned correctly?

Mr. Camp: No.

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Mr. Voth:
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Q. All right. So let's start just with the first line then, and then we'll make arrangements. So let
me know when you're done reading the first line.

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So Bravado had filed more than 50 lawsuits against more than 50 defendants; correct?

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A. Yeah, that's correct.

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Q. Your Honor, given that the last page of this exhibit was not scanned properly, may I
approach the witness and provide him with a copy, just to ask him one further question.

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Judge Holmes: Sure. Do you have an extra one for me?
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Mr. Voth: No. We can make a copy when we have a moment.
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Judge Holmes: Okay. Well, let me see it first. Give it to Ms. Wood.

Mr. Voth: Sure. May I approach, Your Honor?

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Judge Holmes: Over to Ms. Wood, yes.

Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

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Mr. Voth: All right. So please take a moment to read to yourself paragraph eight.
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Judge Holmes: Actually we saw it on the screen at one point. It's duplicated elsewhere? Can
you do a control up?
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Mr. Camp: It may take a while, Your Honor. It's a large document.
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Mr. Weitzman: What is control up?

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Mr. Camp: Well, you know what? It is scanned correctly.

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Judge Holmes: There it is.

Mr. Camp: Apparently the zoom somehow affected it. So I've zoomed out to a smaller

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percentage and I believe that is ....

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Judge Holmes: Yeah. That's what I remember seeing. Go ahead, Mr. Voth. We can all see it
now.

Ms. Herbert: It's there.

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Mr. Voth:
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Q. So between Michael Jackson's death and April 11, 2011, more than nine figures in retail
dollar were sold by Bravado and its licensees; correct?
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A. Correct.

Mr. Voth: No further questions, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Any redirect Mr. Weitzman?

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Mr. Weitzman: Yes, Your Honor

Mr. Voth: Oh one, pardon.

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Mr. Weitzman: I'm going to allow you to go ahead if you have any other questions.
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Mr. Voth: Oh no, no. It wasn't a question. It was just a quick housekeeping matter. May I
proceed, Mr. Weitzman?

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Judge Holmes: Yes, you may.

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Mr. Voth: Okay.

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Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Gotta ask the judge.

Mr. Voth: I didn't want to interrupt him, that's all. Your Honor, Respondent moves into evidence
Exhibit 596-R.
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Mr. Weitzman: No objection.
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Judge Holmes: It's admitted

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REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Through the end of 2011, Bravado was a long ways from recouping their advance; correct?
a

A. Correct.
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Q. So notwithstanding however many items were out of the marketplace and how much
revenue, nine figures whatever that meant had been received, as I understand it Bravado was a
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long ways from recouping the $15 million advance.

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A. I think it's important to clarify ....

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Mr. Voth: Objection, leading.

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Judge Holmes: Sustained, rephrase.

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Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Was Bravado a long ways from recouping their debts?

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A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Do you know how much the advance was?

A. I recall the Estate advance being $10 million paid in two payments, I think of 7.5 million and
a second payment of 2.5 million.
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Q. And when you left Bravado at the end of 2011, what was the state or stage of recoupment?
ich

A. My recollection was that it was about $2 million unrecouped.

mM

Q. But an additional two years passed?

A. Correct.
a

Q. You said 2011, 2013?

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A. Yes.
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Q. So of the items had been on the market when you left Bravado how long?

A. Since August of 2009 and I left in February of 2013.

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Q. And paragraph eight in front of you, which says .... paragraph eight. I don't even know what
exhibit it's drawn from. I'm referring to the witness' declaration. Paragraph eight reads "Since the

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death of Mr. Jackson, more than nine figures in retail dollar value of authorized official Jackson
granted merchandise has been sold by Bravado and its licensee." Was that number a gross
number of a net number to Bravado?

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A. That's a net number.

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Q. And what was your margin cost, if you recall, for these items?

lJa
A. Well, you know, the margin would vary because there were so many different items that
made up that. But I think it's important to clarify that the Jackson Estate gets paid a royalty
percentage of those gross sales that can be anywhere from 10 to 15 to 25 percent of that gross
margin. Based on what the individual licensing deal was or, you know, they had various rates
ae
within the Estate contract. So if it was a higher end specialty tee shirt, which would be a cut and
sewn item that might have a higher manufacturing cost, the Estate would get paid a significantly
lower royalty rate.
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Q. So the nine figures in retail dollars was not money that went directly to Bravado?
mM

Mr. Voth: Objection, leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:
a

Q. Was the .... pardon me. I'm going to rephrase it. Did the nine figure retail dollar value of
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authorized Jackson merchandise that had been sold go directly to Bravado?

A. No.
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Q. The slot machines. If the slot machines had only included the image of Mr. Jackson with no
music and no video, how do you think it would have performed?
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Mr. Voth: Objection, calls for speculation.

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Judge Holmes: Establish a foundation, if you can, for projections.

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Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Are you familiar with the slot machines and not physically how they're put together but the
elements involved?

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A. Yes.

lJa
Q. And you told us earlier that there were, I think, four elements involved which was .... well,
what were the four elements? ae
A. Well, you had music, publishing, video and then name and likeness rates.
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Q. If the slot machine had not included all of those elements, but only Mr. Jackson's name
and/or image, do you think it would have been a success?
mM

Mr. Voth: Objection, calls for speculation and lack of foundation.

Judge Holmes: Sustained, sustained.

Mr. Weitzman:
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Q. You were asked some questions about lawsuits. I'm assuming you weren't involved in
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prosecuting a lawsuit or deciding what lawsuits were filed; correct?

A. That's correct.
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Q. What was your understanding of the purpose of the filing of these lawsuits?
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A. To take illegal merchandise out of the marketplace that were interfering with Bravado's own
sales.

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Q. You're referring to like bootleg merchandise?

A. Yes, to shut down bootlegging.

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Q. And was there in particular an incident that you were involved in in some foreign territory?

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A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Can you tell us about some of those experiences or one of those experiences?
ae
A. The largest marketplace for Michael Jackson was in Japan. Japan was the market that we had
the biggest problem, and ultimately ended up initiating several lawsuits because the moment
Michael died, a Japanese gangster who had some previous business dealings with Michael some
ich
20 years earlier to do an amusement park in Japan, went out into the Japanese marketplace and
claimed that he held the rights to be able to license Michael Jackson and started doing deals. He
started doing that immediately after Michael died. When we started going into that marketplace
in August of 2009, so over a month later, we were met with a lot of resistance by Japanese
licensees who, to be honest, they were in fear of this guy and were afraid to do a deal with us.
mM

Q. One moment.

Mr. Weitzman: I don't have any further questions, thank you.

a
Te

Judge Holmes: I just have one. In the slot machine, have you seen the slot machine with
Michael Jackson's likeness in video and audio?
w.

A. Yes.

Judge Holmes: How long does it take to register, to play it if you pull a lever or whatever?
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 om
A. I'm not sure I understand the question.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Well normally you sit at a slot machine. You pull the one arm, it takes several
seconds. This sounds like a much longer production.

so
A. It is. I mean the game, it took a year to design the game and the game was set up to be a video
and music experience, including the surround-sound chair.

ck
Judge Holmes: For like 25 cents?

lJa
A. Well, it ranged .... those slot machines ranged from 5 cents to 25 cents to 50 cents to a dollar.
So there's different, as you see in the casinos, they have different areas where the slot machines
are priced. The same machine is priced differently.
ae
Judge Holmes: And people .... this is economic to do because you pull the lever and then you
get five minutes of music video or ....
ich

A. To be perfectly honest, no one pulls the lever anymore. It's all done with various buttons, and
they set these machines up, and I spent a lot of time studying this and working with all the six
mM

major slot machine companies, so I feel that I'm a bit of an expert in this area. The average
demographic of a slot machine player is a 50 plus year old female, which was shocking to me
because I personally like playing them. But what ends up happening is that Bally Tech can give
you the specifics, but I think the average length of stay on one of those machines is 12 to 16
minutes.
a

Judge Holmes: Oh, so you don't get all the music and audio with just one.
Te

A. No. The normal way that people play it is they'll take a $20 bill and insert it into a quarter slot
machine, and that gives them 80 spins. Then the trick is, for anyone who wants to play slot
w.

machines, you always have to play the maximum number of spins. You'll never win just playing
the minimum. So the maximum can be three or four spins. So people are spending let's say a
dollar every time they're doing a spin, and the game teases you. So it gives you a little bit of
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 om
Michael dancing and then you've got spin again to see the rest of the Moonwalk. I don't pretend
to understand it myself.

n.c
Judge Holmes: I understand it better as a result of your testimony, Mr. Sebacious.

Mr. Weitzman: I actually would like to ask my expert one more question.

so
Judge Holmes: He's not an expert. Just a fact witness. Go ahead, though.

ck
lJa
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr. Weitzman:
ae
Q. Have you seen any of these slot machines with only Mr. Jackson's name or image on the
machines?
ich

A. No.
mM

Q. Do you think the slot machine with just his name and image would do as well as the ones
with the surround sound, the music and the video?

Mr. Voth: Objection, lack of foundation.

a

Judge Holmes: Sustained, sustained, sustained.

Te

Mr. Weitzman: Just kind of established his expertise per ....

w.

Judge Holmes: He's not an expert witness.

ww
 om
Mr. Weitzman: Well that isn't the point.

n.c
Judge Holmes: He's just a very knowledgeable fact witness.

Mr. Weitzman: And I just want the record to be clear. It your ruling that he can't give his
opinion given his expertise and background?

so
Judge Holmes: Yes.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Well, I can respect this ruling. I'm probably going to lose this, right.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Any other questions, Mr. Voth?

Mr. Voth: No further questions, Your Honor.

ae
Judge Holmes: You don't need him as part of your case-in-chief?
ich

Mr. Voth: No, Your Honor.

mM

Judge Holmes: You are free to go. Thank you.

A. Thank you, Your Honor.

a

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. Sir, I have one question, one question.
Te

Judge Holmes: Mr. Combo, one more, one more.

w.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Did you develop, help develop this machine?
ww
 om
A. Yes.

n.c
Judge Holmes: That will be your last question.

A. Thank you.

so
Judge Holmes: Who's next?

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Randy Phillips, Your Honor. Can I have a moment to get him?

lJa
Judge Holmes: Sure.

ae
ich
a mM
Te
w.
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