by Amanda Diaz and Magali Krischke October 1978
Varna Bambirra is a Brazilian-born researcher. After the coup
d'etat overthrowing the government of Joao Gulart in Brazil,
Vania went to live in Chile, where she became involved in
interesting and important academic and political activities.
She worked for several years at CESO (Centre for Social
Studies), affiliated with the University of Chile. In that in-
stitution, she carried out important research, writing several
articles on women in the journal Punto Final. Other articles
related to Latin America were written by Vania under the
pseudonym Clea Silva. Among her works, which form a strong
contribution to the study of dependency in Latin America,
the following books can be cited: La Revolucion Cubarza:
une reinterpretation; (Mexico); El Capitalism Dependiente
Latino American (Siglo XXI, Mexico: 1974); Teoria de la
Dcpendencia. Una anticritica (Ediciones Era, Mexico: 1978).
At present, Vania lives and works in Mexico (like many other
researchers from Latin America, she has had to request political
asylum after the Chilean coup d'etat in 1973) at the Universidad
AutOnoma de Mexic6, Departamento de Economia.
Two Thirds: We would like to focus our conversation on
the situation of women over the last ten or fifteen years, but
hefore that, Vania, we would like you to give us an idea of
your own work and experience in the field of Latin American
Women's Studies.
Vania Bambirra: I acquired my first experience in Belo
lion te, Minas Gerais, in Brazil, while I was a student, with
the "favelados" movement, which at that time had a tremen-
dous political importance. As you know, the "favelados"
are shanty town inhabitants. I was working with both men
and women, and the women showed a very great militant
attitude. My second experience was with women, in the or-
ganifation of the first Peasant League in Tres Marias, Minas
Ga.aiS. Wring my stay in Chile, had very few contacts
with poptilat sectors; I dealt mainly with University people.
I l ii-tite a eutiple of articles on the situation of the Chilean
woman from a Marxist point of view, which were published
in the magazine Punto Final.
TT: Do you think we can talk about the situation of women
in Latin America in general, or should we focus on the prob-
lems of women in each country in particular?
V.B.: I would tackle the problem from an entirely different
angle. One can't deal with women's issues in general. I always
try to specify class distinctions when I deal with the situation
of women. That is the crucial distinction. There are as many
categories of women as there are social classes; the situation
of the bourgeois woman is different from that of the peasant
or working-class woman. "Women in general" do not exist.
It is easy to see that the working-class woman is subject to a
two-fold exploitation, as a worker and as a woman. She works
two shifts; one at the factory and one at home.
TT: Maybe our point was not clearly made. When we asked
you if it was possible to talk about the situation of women
in Latin America, we were wondering if it would be better to
concentrate on the situation of women in a specific country,
or to make specific distinctions for each country within a
general framework, due to the different cultural variables
which exist in each place.
V.B.: I believe that the basic problems of the working class
woman are the same, whether in Argentina, Brazil or Mexico.
This also applies to the petit bourgeois and bourgeois women.
Perhaps one can say that the Chilean woman is more politic-
ally conscious, has a greater militant tradition than the Brazil-
ian woman, and that this is due to a cultural difference. On
the other hand, I think that the Chilean woman is not as ad-
vanced as the Argentine woman; Chile has not reached the
degree of technological development of Argentina, and this
reflects in some ways on women's attitudes. In spite of all
this, I believe we should take Latin America as a unit; the
common problems are the most relevant, in spite of the dif-
ferences which exist.
3T: What are the differences and sumuliniues in the situation
of women of the different social classes in Latin America''
V.B to the first place, a general similarity; the discrimin-
ii against women as such. Women tend to he subordinat-
dependent, not only in economic aspects but also in
notional and political ones. You can find this subordin-
ation. this dependence, this discrimination not only in the
working class woman, but also in the petit bourgeois and
even in the bourgeois woman. It is a general attitude. Never-
theless, this similarity is not important: I don't consider my-
self a feminist.
. to relegate her to second place.
IT: In spite of recognizing that women are discriminated
against, and subordinated, you say that you're not a femin-
ist. What do you mean by that?
V.B.: What I mean is that the subordination, the discrimin-
ation, cannot be overcome by a 'woman's only' struggle,
which in some cases becomes an anti-male movement, which
is absurd. Women should be struggling against the capitalist
system which oppresses them, and that struggle should be
led by the vanguard of society, the working class. In this con-
text, woman's liberation concerns both men and women, and
can only be achieved in a superior economic system, the
first step of which is socialism. The situation of women in
Socialist countries is much more favourable, but full liber-
ation still has not been achieved. It is only in a Communist
society that this full liberation will take place, with the in-
dustrialization of domestic economy. This implies an enor-
mous development of the productive forces, which demands
an urban and architectural revolution to enable domestic
work to be undertaken in large units. Without this it is im-
possible to imagine the total liberation of women.
IT: Do you consider the anti-male aspect of the feminist
movement to be a first approximation, a transitory stage in
the struggle?
V.B.: 1 don't know if it is a transitory stage or notI have
my doubts. I think it depends can the sector of the move-
ment- there are sectors of the feminist movement with such
great deformations that thy.may never advance towards
higher forms of organization. I must also stress that the
bourgeoisie tries to use the movement towards its own ends.
Tr: What about sonic concrete situations faced by women.
For instance, how can one make the man share domestic re-
sponsibilities and also be conscious of his own responsibility
at home?
V.B.: I think that it is very important to make large popular
sectors conscious of the limitations of male chauvinism, of
-machismo", and its reactionary content. The political plat-
fotins of revolutionary parties, movements and organizations
should include women's rights as part of their program of
the people's struggle in general, and they should actively in-
corporate women in their movements.
TT: Do you think there have been changes in the situation of
different social classes in Latin America over these
but ten Veals?
V.B.: Yes, at least in some aspects, because Latin America has
developed in the last ten years. Several countries have become
more industrialized. In spite of this progress, we have a critical
situation. The development of the productive apparatus brought
about a greater involvement of women in productive life. I'm
not 'so sure this happened to'working class women, but the per-
Centage of petit bourgeois'Women in the Universities has in-
creased, and this is important. Nevertheless, although there is
a greater feminine presence in` several sectors, it is still an ex-
ception if one looks at Latin American politics in general. In
some areas their participation is really limited; such is the case
of cultural activities in general. There are not many women
39
1.TOMEMIMITalk,
actively prodtit:tsig anti Writing in the held or social sciences,
for an instance.
TT: Ott what do you base this opinion?
V.B.: it has to do with women's general situation, with their
subordinate position in society. It is very difficult for a wo-
man to acquire her own identity, from a cultural, profession-
al or any other point of view. It all has to do with the back-
ward "machista" tradition of our peoples. Woman have to
make a double effort to overcome the discriminatory bar-
riers which exist against her. All other things being equal, a
woman always loses out to a man, because competition tends
TT: You said before that womenabove all working class
womenwere exploited and discriminated against. If we ac-
cept now that there is a double exploitation in a male dominat-
ed society, how can we accept that men are going to give wo-
men their liberation?
V.B.: I think that women should he twice as revolutionary,
precisely because they are twice exploited. They have double
reasons to struggle against the system. It is not men who ex-
ploit women, it is the system of exploitation of the dominated
classes by the dominant class which affects the oppressed wo-
men on a double count. That is why the working class and
peasant woman, and even large sectors of the petit bourgeoisie,
can have this revolutionary perspective which the bourgeois
woman lacks. The bourgeois woman transfers the substance
of her exploitation to other women, such as her servants. If
she considers herself to be exploited by the system, it is only
in the sense of being discriminated against as a woman. She
is not subjected to a double exploitation, and in this sense,
the bourgeois woman and the working class woman are
enemies. This is why I said before that the whole question
should be stated in terms of class relations. The working class
woman cannot join forces with the bourgeois woman, but
she can join forces with her mate, with her fellow workers,
with the people of her class. This is the reason why 1 do not
consider myself a feminist, in the same way as Domitila
Barrios Chungara, Secretary General of the Housewives'
Committee of the Siglo XX mine in Bolivia, doesn't consider
herself a feminist, and her answer to the question is based on
intuition. Moema Viezzer wrote a book about Domitila's
experiences, titled "If you let me speak" ("Si me permiten
hablar", Ed. SigloXXI, Mexico.) Why does she say she is not
a feminist? Because she is a woman of the mines, struggling
side by side with the miners, against dictatorship and oppres-
sion in her country.
TT: The bourgeois and petit bourgeois women in Latin
America transfer exploitation to the domestic servant--some-
thing which the petit bourgeois woman in developed capital-
ist countries can no longer do in the same way. But there
are limits to this transfer, as these women still have to care
for the children and supervise domestic work in general.
V.B.: The feminine sector of our society which is most over-
exploited, whose function is even pre-capitalist and servile in
twine, is that of the domestic servant. I know that in the
developed capitalist countries this no longer happens, or at
least, it does not happen with the same intensity, but in our
society, bourgeois and petit bourgeois women exploit domestic
service in the most heartless and savage manner. The domestic
servants, daughters of peasants or workers, have no right to a
private life. Those of peasant extraction have three options;
becoming worker-peasants, prostitutes, or domestic servants.
Those who choose domestic service do not earn even half of
a minimum working wage. They usually work from 7 in the
morning to 10 at night, and have no opportunities of develop-
ing a private life. They live in precarious conditions, in attic
rooms, isolated; they are not allowed to have children, be-
cause if they do they lose their employment. .Abortions are
 cokumon practice, with all the frustrations which this type
of life can bring. They arc treated as serfs, they exist only to
...obey. The petit bourgeois woman in Latin America is the
most sinister exploiter that has ever existed.
TT: Isn't the man an accomplice to this woman's exploit-
ation of the domestic servant? He also takes advantage of the
servant's work.
V.B.: Yes, the man is an indirect accomplice of this exploit-
ation.
TT: We don't consider this type of struggle as incompatible
with the struggle of the feminist movement. If women do
not participate actively and organize themselves in society,
they will be marginated and relegated.
V.B.: I can agree with that. I believe that women should
participate and organize themselves as such, but I make a
distinction between that and feminism. Let me explain
this further. I believe that it is important. Domitila organized
the miners' wives; they didn't work in the mines themselves,
but they organized themSelves to fight alongside the miners,
participating in their strikes in defense of common interests.
They were organized as women, struggling side by side with
their men. They organized a housewives' committeebut it
was a political organization, which included their demands
as women. This also is the way women are organized in
Socialist countries. In Cuba, the Federation of Cuban Women
defends the specific interests of women, but the Federation
is related to the Party and to the whole social and revolu-
tionary process. It is not an isolated, particular struggle, be-
cause the main issue is the struggle for socialism and pro-
letarian revolution. In this context I cannot imagine a wo-
men's movement which turns against men. I find that the
enemies are of another kind, and I can't see any advantage
in mixing the demands of the working women with those of
the bourgeois women; they are qualitatively different. But
as long as this remains clear, I have nothing against women's
organizations.
TT: What changes have you noticed in the situation of
women in Latin America?
V.B.: It is difficult to generalize; one has to he more specific.
For instance, in Chile, during the Unidad Popular period,
the number of day care centres increased, and women's
participation in all aspects of social and political life increas-
ed also. In the past 15 years, there has been a much greater
incorporation of women to social struggle in Brazil, but it
still remains a diffuse participation. Women's journals begin
to appear as opposition journals to the dictatorship. Such
is the case of "Nos Mulhers. ", which in my opinion is ex-
cellent. The Amnesty Movement is led by women. I don't
have much information about Argentina, but I understand
that there has been an increase in feminine presence in
social struggles.
Ti': What elements have influenced these changes?
V.B.: Firstly, the process of cultural, economic and indus-
trial development; and secondly, the crisis of dependent
capitalist systems, which has pushed women toward a more
active participation. Domitila's case, for an instance, shows
that the struggle for survival pushed women to fight. In
Brazil, the crisis has led women to organize themselves in
practically all the states. Women are becoming more concern-
ed with issues such as democracy, the struggle for socialism,
the exploitation of workers, etc. To sum it up, the greater
cultural development and the profound crisis of dependent
capitalism is leading sectors which did not participate very
much to more intense forms of participation.
7 cause she is a woman, but because she belongs to the work-
TT: Do you consider the fact that this capitalist crisis allows
for some participation of the feminist movement as a step
foi
40
'IrVinagliaM ak4
V.B.: Of course,r,it is very important. One must he careful,
though, because the bourgeoisie has also understood this and
has tried to use it to its own advantage. The most important
sectors of the feminist movement in the U.S. are dominated
by the bourgeoisie. This can be seen in the attempt to pit
women against men, to restrict the character of the move-
ment, and to present it as a broader, more political, more
unitarian movement. Even the literature which has come out
of the leaders of the feminist movement in recent years is
totally wrong. These leaders are bourgeois or petit bourgeois
women, who try to use the movement, disfiguring it, depriv-
ing it of its revolutionary, socialist content. In general, I
must say that there are important things happening, but
one must learn to be selective in one's analysis.
TT: We would like to talk some more about the situation of
the working woman in Latin America, not only in her role
as a worker's spouse, but as a worker herself. How does she
visualize her work?
V.B.: Obviously, she works to supplement her husband's
salary, but this does not mean that she does not struggle for
a general improvement in her working and living conditions.
There are many proofs of combative attitudes among work-
ing women in Latin America, which have become more pro-
nounced in recent years. A new period of ascendent social
struggles is being outlined today in Latin America, but those
struggles have been and still are suffocated by the presence
of military dictatorships such as the one which has governed
Brazil for the last 14 years. It is difficult for both women and
men to express themselves under those circumstances. The
repressive system in Latin America is very violent. In spite
of this, Chilean women are struggling against the dictator-
ship, by means of hunger strikes and protests; they are out
in the streets again.
TT: What we notice is that many of the women's protests
are related to their traditional role, in the family, but not so
much to their own specific demands.
V.B.: I don't think that this is the case of the Chilean women;
they are not protesting for their loved ones alone; they
understand the political content of their actions. Their de-
mands have a much wider reach, especially in the Chilean
case, where three years of Unidad Popular government achiev-
ed a massive politicization. Of course, women's rallies are
often related to affective and emotional aspects; we cannot
deny this fact, which has to do with the "feminine" function
and has roots in that strong cultural tradition which relegates
the woman to a docile, passive, dependent role. This does
not exclude the fact that many of these rallies show a much
deeper degree of conscience of women as part of popular
sectors.
TT: When a woman goes out to work, she usually does be-
cause of her family's needs, and not for her own self-
fulfillment. What do you think of that?
V.B.: Yes, it is an important aspect, but you must also con-
sider that when a young man goes to work in a factory, he
does not do so because he chose the job. He goes to work in
that factory because he has a very objective need for survival, ,
and has no opportunity to develop his potential, to study
more, and to choose what he wants to be in life. The same
happens to a child who begs in the street. Neither the worker,
nor the child, nor the woman are fulfilling their existence.
Society frustrates and castrates the majority of the people.
The woman's problem might he a bit more dramatic, but it
is shared by the oppressed sectors in general as the impos-
sibility to choose, to develop socially. As we said before, the
working class woman is discriminated against not only be-
ing class, and this is important. The petit bourgeois woman
does not need to work to supplement her husband's salary,
44,
sO"she has a wider margin of choice and can look for an
alternative which provides personal fulfillment, that is to say,
an decide what to contribute - to.society, what profession
she can'
to take up. The working class woman can't. I insist on this
poillit; the problem is more one of class discrimination than
of discrimination against women in general. The situation in
socialist countries is different; if we consider the statistics
on wonien professionals in the Soviet Union, they arc im-
pressive. If my memory serves me, more than 80% of the
doctors in the USSR are women. It is a sy stem which has
developed in a much more egalitarian fashion, in spite of the
fact that the problem is far from being solved, as it depends
on a greater general development. In any event, women
there already have greater possibilities of social participation.
TT: Although a Socialist revolution has already taken place
in Cuba, there still are problems there regarding the situation
of women. What do you think of the recent law establishing
the division of responsibilities for domestic work between
men and women?
V.B.: I think it is a very important step toward a solution
for Cuba, within its material conditions as an underdeveloped.
country, still very poor, which has to overcome 400 years
of backward heritage. We also must not forget that "machismo"
exists in Cuba, as it does in other Latin American countries,
based on a very strong cultural tradition which even a revo-
lution as radical as the Cuban one has not been able to eradi-
cate. This fact indicates the need for a profound cultural
revolution.. .and to avoid being idealistic, we must say that
this profound cultural revolution, this change in mentality,
can only come about as the result of material, economic and
industrial development. The changes implied by the new law
are very important, but they are only transitory, interme-
diate steps. The Cuban woman has only achieved a slightly
greater degree of independence. The discussions on the
Constitution in the Revolutionary Defense Committees in
Cuba were very interesting. People said, 'If you don't work,
you don't cat.' Some pointed out that many women didn't
work, and the women's answer was, 'Of course we do, we
work at home.' One must not forget that Cuban society is
still unable to incorporate all women in the productive
system, as it has nut been able to solve the day care prob..
lems yet. Although great advances have been made, the
Cuban woman is still a prisoner of domestic activities, even
more so in this period of transition; for example, the petit
bourgeoisie cannot solve the problem by transferring the
exploitation to servants because there aren't any servants
left If thin MC line tips due to food scarcity. everybody
has to stand in line. On one hand, the women have to
sacrifice a lot in this period of transition, but on the other,
they have become more respected and independent. I had
a very moving experience while I was in Cuba; I talked to
some ex-prostitutes. Prostitution was eliminated very quick-
ly in Cuba; even during the democratic period there was no
prostitution left. One of the women I spoke to had become
integrated into productive life; she had solved her problem,
and was even going to become a 'millenia'. It was very
touching to see how her comrades treated her with respect
and affection.
Tr: Do you think that the changes which occur in a social-
ist society, for example, Cuba, have any influence on Latin
American women?
V.B.: Yes, in the sense that those experiences can serve as
an inspiration for the future, when we start to build social-
ism; we can look at the examples and know what road to
take. Only in this sense. I don't think there is enough in-
formation about Cuba in the rest of Latin America to justify
talking about any other kind of influence. Just remember
that 70% of the countries live under military dictatorships.
The people know very little of what is going on in Cuba.
Sonic intellectuals have access to the literature on what is
41
happening there. But, even though we have the information,
how could we put it into practice here? Cuba is Socialist,
here we have dependent capitalism, and this type of influence
only can serve as an example for the future. Therein lies our
responsibility as intellectuals to study this experience,
assimilate it arid spread it, as we can serve as a bridge toward
popular sectors.
TT: Do you think that these changes may also have been
influenced by the feminist movement in North America?
V.B.: Certainly, both by the North American and European
movements. They both had a very strong impact. Everything
that goes on in the advanced capitalist countries has an in-
fluence on the dependent countries.
TT: Do you believe that within the framework of a capital-
ist bourgeois society, the changes brought about by the
feminist movement contribute to - the struggle against the
present social, political and economic situation in Latin
America?
V.B: That depends on the movement's orientation. Inas-
much as some sectors of the feminist movement tend to
follow orientations which lead them to defend particular
interests, divorced from more ample social struggles, I don't
think they are collaborating Harnercker's hook "Cuba, Democracy
ments. This happens in many advanced capitalist countries.
Quite to the contrary, the contribution is even negative. The
movement in Brazil, on the other hand, is playing a very
important role, because the women there are organizing
themselves in a struggle for democracy. That without doubt
is an important contribution.
TT: In the present critical situation, women are led to work
outside their homes, and to study; at the same time, they
are urged to maintain their traditional role. Who is interested
in the conservation of this traditional role?
V.B.: The system is interested in that, because it has no
possibility of incorporating women into the market. We are
living in a period of technical and scientific revolution, and
there is a capitalist trend toward structural unemployment.
The last two crises of the system led to unemployment figures
which surpassed all previous counts; I'm talking about countries
such as U.S.A., France, and Germany, not to speak of Great
Britain, where the situation is now very deteriorated. The
system cannot massively incorporate women to the productive
apparatus. This can only be done in a planned socialist eco-
nomy. Because of this, the system is interested in keeping
women subordinated at home; it cannot solve the problem
any other way. Front the point of view of capitalist ideology,
there is nothing to stop incorporating women into the pro-
ductive system, but it cannot be done, so the whole mother-
hood and child care myth has to he developed. The system
cannot solve this problem, arid what is more, it becomes pro-
gressively worse, both in the developed and the dependent
capitalist countries. All the resources of the media, publicity
' and advertising are geared to the justification of this situation.
TT: But, at the sabre time, women are stimulated to study
and improve their training, in order to make more qualified
labour available.
V.B.: True, but then they have no opportunity to join the
working force. This is a current problem for today's youth
in general. It is also one of the reasons for young people's
rebelliousness: they have no professional future. What happens
in Latin America for an instance, is that women's particip-
ation in the university increases, but they marry soon after
and devote themselves to raising children because it is so
difficult to get a job.
Ti': What are the developments in the power of decision and
political participation of women both in socialist and capital-
ist countries?
YAMARAIENAtat
" iEntianW4t -=Zitaitatslititzgattasaataz
Very important ones. For example, if one analyses
thekilhan case, women's participation at all levels of political
i)cen integrated with that of the whole people. From
the Revolutionary Defense Committees, which are organized
in each block, with massive participation, to the Popular Power
Assemblies, and the recent discussions on institutionalization.
I suggest you read Martha Harnewrcker's book "Cuba. Democracy
or Dictatorship?", where all this is explained in great detail.
TT: You said before that Cuba was not able to incorporate
women massively into the productive process. Why do you
stipulate women in this context'? Isn't this a ease of discrim-
ination against women?
V.B.: The problem is that Cuba has not been able to create
the conditions which would enable women to leave home.
The necessary infrastructure of day care centres, popular
restaurants, collective laundries, and so on will take years to
complete; it implies an architectural and urban revolution at
all levels, and a solution to the urban-rural contradiction.
That is why I said that this could only be achieved at a com-
munist stage, which would imply a tremendous development
of productive forces.
TT: What is the Cuban woman's participation in Party life?
V.B.: It has increased drastically. If you take a look at the
Thesis and Resolutions of the First Congress of the Com-
munist Party of Cuba, you will see the Party's preoccupation
with the massive incorporation of women, and with making
that incorporation meaningful. This concern is very healthy
and aims at finding better solutions to the problem.
TT: You state that the incorporation of women into the
productive process will depend on existing economic de-
velopment. If in Cuba today there is no infrastructure which
will enable this development, do you think that this may
become an obstacle to the advancement of the Cuban
woman's present situation; in other words, that the lack of
job opportunities may continue to relegate her, and lead her
to revert to her traditional role?
V.B.: I was trying to point out that the change cannot be
accomplished all at once. It is a relatively slow process, but
there is an increasing trend towards a consciousness that this
incorporation is necessary. On the other hand, the develop-
ment of industry, hospitals, factories and so on in Cuba
naturally help to create the conditions for this incorporation,
and the increase in accumulation permits the assignment of
more funds to the building of day care centres, collective
restaurants, and provokes the disappearance of line ups for
42
31171011L711.136EDIMInameneacacass.s,
food, thus creating the required conditions for women's
total liberation. In Cuba today, the activist who discrim-
inates against his wife and does not collaborate at home, is
expelled from the Party. But, as I said before, it is a gradual
process; and although women are not massively incorporated
into the productive process, this has not been an obstacle -
to their involvement in the political process, perhaps because
this is also the result of an important revolution.
TT: And what is women's power of decision and iolitical
participation in the capitalist countries?
V.B.: It is very restricted, and only appears as the right to
vote in those countries where there is a representative dem-
ocracy. It is interesting to see that in many cases right wing
par ties arc elected on the basis of women's votes. Christian
Democracy in Chile and Franco in Spain, were both elected
on the basis of women's votes. Women tend to be conserv-
ative, and the left has always lost their vote. This is an im-
portant point for consideration. In any event, their partic-
ipation is limited to voting; there are very few female MP's,
Senators or politicians in capitalist countries.
TT: Is it legitimate to he concerned about the situation of
women before a socialist revolution, or should one wait,
devote efforts to the revolution and then attend to women's
liberation?
V.B.: The struggle for woman's liberation should he taken
up now, because it is a very important component of the
struggle for a socialist revolution. The best possible advantage
should be taken of this struggle; it is an important revolutionary
banner.
TT: What form should our struggle and preoccupation about
the situation of women take today?
V.B.: I think that the struggle for women's liberation should
he led by the working class and its parties, and all women's
demands should he made in the context of that struggle,
above all those of oppressed women, workers, peasants, and
important sectors of the petit bourgeoisie. To conclude,
women have an obligation to participate in the people's
general struggles, in pursuit of political and economic dem-
ocracy as pre-requisites of a socialist revolution. These popular
sectors should also show solidarity with women's demands,
advocating their incorporation into the productive process,
and their right of a wider political participation, although
they know that this will only be possible when capitalism
is overcome.