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Secondary to Primary beam connections

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kulkarninm Posted:TueAug17,20105:01amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
Dearsafians,

IalwayscomeacrosstheproblemwhilemodelingframestructureinSTAAD.PRO.Someofthe
structuralengineersreleasesthesecondarybeamendmomentsMx,My,Mzsothatonlyreaction
shouldgettransferedtoprimarybeam.Nowmyproblemis,ifsecondarybeamsupportingother
beamsandrestingonprimarybeamisreleasedforthemoments,warningforinstabilityoccurs.How
torectifythisproblem?IsisOKifbeamsarepartiallyreleased?

Joined:07Nov2009
Posts:17

Backtotop
rahul.leslie Posted:TueAug17,20108:36amPostsubject:
GeneralSponsor
ReleaseonlyMZ

Joined:01Apr2008
Posts:460
Location:Trivandrum

Backtotop
Dr.N.Subramanian Posted:TueAug17,20102:39pmPostsubject:Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
HiAll,

Isomehowdonotlikereleasingtheendmoments,asinRCC,thejointsaremonolithicandhowdo
weknowwhetherthestructurebehavesintheway,weintendedthemtobehave?

Iamhappytonotethatthesoftwareisgivingawarningthattherewillbeinstability,ifyouattempt
toreleaseendmomentsofasecondarybeamwhichissupportingotherbeams.Whatthesoftware
saysisavalidthing.ThoughyoumaycircumventitbyfollowingthesuggestiongivenbyErRahul,I
feelthatitisnotagoodpractice.Whydoyouwanttoreleasetheendmoments?Canwenotcheck
thebeamsforcombinedBMandTorsion?
Joined:21Feb2008
Posts:5048
Location:Gaithersburg,MD, Thisismypersonalopinion.IrequestotherexperiencedengineerslikeProf.ARC(asthiskindof
U.S.A.
releasemaybecriticalforlateralloads),ErBarua,ErVikaramjeet,ErRangarajan,ErMallick,ErSuraj,

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120 1/7
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
ErSangeetaandErBharsodatoexpresstheirviews.

Bestwishes,

Subramanian
kulkarninmwrote:
Dearsafians,

IalwayscomeacrosstheproblemwhilemodelingframestructureinSTAAD.PRO.Someof
thestructuralengineersreleasesthesecondarybeamendmomentsMx,My,Mzsothatonly
reactionshouldgettransferedtoprimarybeam.Nowmyproblemis,ifsecondarybeam
supportingotherbeamsandrestingonprimarybeamisreleasedforthemoments,warning
forinstabilityoccurs.Howtorectifythisproblem?IsisOKifbeamsarepartiallyreleased?

Backtotop
thirumalaichettiar Posted:WedAug18,201012:25amPostsubject:
SilverSponsor
DearEr.Kulkarninm,

TheproblemofreleasingMzinSTAADisamodelingproblemandasEr.Rahulsaiditcanbesolvedas
perhisinstruction.
Therearetorsiondueto:
1)Equilibriumofinternalandexternalforces
2)Compatibilityofstrainsinconcreteandsteel
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:3434 ComingtothepointraisedbyDr.N.SyouhavedifferenttypeofTorsioninastructure.Theproblem
statedbyistheCOMPATIBILITYTORSION.Thiscanbereleasedanddetailingisveryimportantat
thejunctionwithPrimarybeam.
AsDr.N.Ssaiditisdifficulttoachievethesecondarybeamassimplysupportedoneinpractice
speciallyinR.C.Cstructures.Betterdesignitfortorsionanddetailitcarefully.Alsoinmanycasesthe
Mzfromanalysismaybeverysmall.

InmanydiscussionsintheforumitwaspointedoutthatDETAILINGisasimportantasANALYSIS
andDESIGN.

EnclosedisaPDFfilerelatedtotheabovetopicwhichgivessomegoodideaaboutit.
Hopeitisclear.

T.Rangarajan.

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torsion.pdf
Description:
Filename: torsion.pdf
Filesize: 232.25KB Download
Downloaded: 2060Time(s)

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bijaysarkar Posted:WedAug18,20105:40amPostsubject:
...
InStaad,warningswillbegivenwhenendreleasecommandhasbeengivenatbothendsofa
memberforthefollowingforces:
Joined:14Dec2009
Posts:314
Mx,Fx,Fy,Fz.

Mxreleasedatbothendsofamemberwillmeanthememberiscapabletorotateaboutitsownaxis.

Fxreleasedatbothendsmeansthememberiscapabletomovealongitsownaxis.

SimilaristhecaseforFyandFz.

AsT.Rangarajansirtold,ifindetailingweprovidemomentconnection,weconsider"Norelease"at
endsandifweconsideronlyshearconnectionwithshearcleatsonlyatweb,weconsider"End
Release".Thisisadoptedforanykindofbeamsi.e.forsecondaryandalsoforprimarybeamsinsteel
structures.

Withregards,

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120 2/7
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

BijaySarkar

Backtotop
sdec.in Posted:WedAug18,20105:45amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
SilverSponsor
DearDrNS

ItisacommonpracticetoreleaseMzforsecondarybeamstoavoidtorsioninSupportingbeams
howeveritisveryimportanttogiveamatchingendsupport(sectomainbeam)detailwhere
developmentlengthfortopbarsiscurtailedtoLd/3andnotld+10diausuallyadoptedforductile
joints.
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:473 bestregards
SangeetaWij

Quote:
OriginalMessage
From:drnsmani(forum@sefindia.org)
To:general@sefindia.org(general@sefindia.org)
Sent:Tuesday,August17,20108:09PM
Subject:[SEFI]Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

HiAll,

Isomehowdonotlikereleasingtheendmoments,asinRCC,thejointsaremonolithicand
howdoweknowwhetherthestructurebehavesintheway,weintendedthemtobehave?

Iamhappytonotethatthesoftwareisgivingawarningthattherewillbeinstability,ifyou
attempttoreleaseendmomentsofasecondarybeamwhichissupportingotherbeams.What
thesoftwaresaysisavalidthing.Thoughyoumaycircumventitbyfollowingthesuggestion
givenbyErRahul,Ifeelthatitisnotagoodpractice.Whydoyouwanttoreleasetheend
moments?CanwenotcheckthebeamsforcombinedBMandTorsion?

Thisismypersonalopinion.IrequestotherexperiencedengineerslikeProf.ARC(asthis
kindofreleasemaybecriticalforlateralloads),ERBarua,ErVikaramjeet,ErRangarajan,Er
Mallick,andErBharsodatoexpresstheirviews.

Bestwishes,

Subramanian
kulkarninmwrote:Dearsafians,

IalwayscomeacrosstheproblemwhilemodelingframestructureinSTAAD.PRO.Someof
thestructuralengineersreleasesthesecondarybeamendmomentsMx,My,Mzsothatonly
reactionshouldgettransferedtoprimarybeam.Nowmyproblemis,ifsecondarybeam
supportingotherbeamsandrestingonprimarybeamisreleasedforthemoments,warning
forinstabilityoccurs.Howtorectifythisproblem?IsisOKifbeamsarepartiallyreleased?

PostedviaEmail

Backtotop
vikram.jeet Posted:WedAug18,20106:15amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
Torsion(inmainbeam)duetoSecbeammainbeamconnectioninRCCconstruction

AsexpressedbyDrNS,thestructurewillbehaveinitsnaturalwayandourassumptions
mustbecloseenoughtoitsnaturalbehavior

InRCC,Asecondarybeamrestingoveramainbeamwillmaketheconditionassimplesupport
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:2212 withoutgeneratinganymomentintheconnection
Howeverwhenasecondarybeamismonolithicatitsendwithmainbeamtosomeappreciable
depth,theconnectionisnolongersimplysupportedandendmomentinsecbeamwillbound
tooccur,therebyresultingintorsioninthemainbeam.

Theextentoftorsiongeneratedinmainbeamwilldependuponmanyfactors:
(i)Presenceoffloorslab
(ii)Flexuralstiffnessofsecbeam,Torsionalstiffnessofmainbeamcomponents
oneithersideofsecbeam
(iii)Detailingofreinforcementatjunction

Presenceoffloorslab

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120 3/7
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
Thisisveryimportantfactorandrealisticbehaviorofframes,mainsecbeamjunctions
(inquestion)mustbeviewedinpresenceofthefloorslabs.
Duetopresenceoffloorslab,Torsiongeneratedwillbegreatlyreduceddependingupon
thedepthofmainbeamw.r.tsecbeam(sinceoneofthecomponentforceof
coupleiscaredbytheslabelementpresentinthestructuralsystem)

Extentoftorsion:
ThiswillbecalculatedbydistributingtheEndmomentinproportionofrespectivestiffness
ofthreemembersmeetingatjoint(inplan)vizFlexuralstiffnessofsecbeam,torsional
stiffnessofmainbeamportionsoneithersideofsecbeam.

Detailingofreinforcementatthejoint

Thejointisdevelopedforapartialfixitytoallowsomecrackingbyprovidingreduced
anchoragelength.

Codalprovision:
IS456(2000)clause41.1onTorsionstates

Instructureswheretorsionisrequiredtomaintainequilibrium,memebers
shallbedesignedfortorsioninaccordancewith41.2,41.3and41.4.
Howeeverforsuchindeterminatestructureswheretorsioncanbeeliminated
byreleasingredundantrestraints,nospecificdesignfortorsionisnecessary
,providedtorsionalstiffnessisneglectedincalculationofinternalforces.
Adequatecontriolofanycrackingisprovidedbytheshearreinforcementas
per40.

Inlightofabove,personallyIfeelthat:
(i)TorsioncalculationsmaybeattemptedincaseswhereRCCslabisnotpresentin
structuralsysteme.g.ArchitecturalPERGOLA,Industrialstrucutreswithrcc
beamsbutchequredplateflooringandsimilarsituations

(ii)TorsioncalculationsmaybeignoredforRCCstructureshavingfloorslabsin
thestructuralsystemsbutthesecbeamsmustbedesignedassimply
supportedforBM=(w*L*L/ .Detailingatjunction(joint)shallfacilitate,only,
apartialfixity.
However,suchMainbeamsmustalsobetackledindetailingbyproviding
additinalshearreinf.(asathumbruleShearreinfinmainbeammaybeworked
outbyignoringthe[tc*B*d]reliefofferedbyconcretetoaccountfor
sometwisting).

Withbestregards

vikramjeet

HiAll,

Isomehowdonotlikereleasingtheendmoments,asinRCC,thejointsaremonolithicandhowdo
weknowwhetherthestructurebehavesintheway,weintendedthemtobehave?

Iamhappytonotethatthesoftwareisgivingawarningthattherewillbeinstability,ifyouattempt
toreleaseendmomentsofasecondarybeamwhichissupportingotherbeams.Whatthesoftware
saysisavalidthing.ThoughyoumaycircumventitbyfollowingthesuggestiongivenbyErRahul,I
feelthatitisnotagoodpractice.Whydoyouwanttoreleasetheendmoments?Canwenotcheck
thebeamsforcombinedBMandTorsion?

Thisismypersonalopinion.IrequestotherexperiencedengineerslikeProf.ARC(asthiskindof
releasemaybecriticalforlateralloads),ErBarua,ErVikaramjeet,ErRangarajan,ErMallick,ErSuraj,
ErSangeetaandErBharsodatoexpresstheirviews.

Bestwishes,

Subramanian

PostedviaEmail

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120 4/7
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

Backtotop
sukanta.adhikari Posted:WedAug18,20106:26amPostsubject:Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
Asperfig.8.16ofSP34...adetalingofsimplysupportedbeamrestingonbrickwallisshown...Inthis
diagramthebottomreinforcementwhichisthemainbendingtensionreinforcementextendsLd/3
fromfaceofbrickwallsupporttothebeamrestingonbrickwall.
Howevernodetailinghasbeenshownwhenasecondarybeamsconnectsamainbeam...Butin
generalthismethodofextendingLd/3hasbeenadoptedincaseofsecondarybeamconnectingmain
beamsbymanydeisgnersinpractice..forwhichMZisreleasedinthesoftwarelikeSTAADetc....
HoweverwecanthaveapuresimplysupportedbeaminRCCstructure..somemomentwillalwaysget
transferredonceasecondaybeamisconnectedtoaprimarybeam...evenifLd/3isprovided..

HenceIagreewiththesuggestiongivenbyrespectedNSthatitisalwaysbettertodesignthemain
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:687 beamforcombinedtorsionandmoment...

Regards,
S.Adhikari

kulkarninmwrote:
Dearsafians,

IalwayscomeacrosstheproblemwhilemodelingframestructureinSTAAD.PRO.Someof
thestructuralengineersreleasesthesecondarybeamendmomentsMx,My,Mzsothatonly
reactionshouldgettransferedtoprimarybeam.Nowmyproblemis,ifsecondarybeam
supportingotherbeamsandrestingonprimarybeamisreleasedforthemoments,warning
forinstabilityoccurs.Howtorectifythisproblem?IsisOKifbeamsarepartiallyreleased?

Backtotop
vikram.jeet Posted:WedAug18,20109:25amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
Incontinuationtoearliermailonthissubject:

Inlightofabove,personallyIfeelthat:
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:2212 (i)TorsioncalculationsmaybeattemptedincaseswhereRCCslabisnotpresentin
structuralsysteme.g.ArchitecturalPERGOLA,Industrialstrucutreswithrcc
beamsbutchequredplateflooringandsimilarsituations

(ii)TorsioncalculationsmaybeignoredforRCCstructureshavingfloorslabsin
thestructuralsystemsbutthesecbeamsmustbedesignedassimply
supportedforBM=(w*L*L/ .Detailingatjunction(joint)shallfacilitate,only,
apartialfixity.

However,suchMainbeamsmustalsobetackledindetailingbyproviding
additinalshearreinf.(asathumbruleShearreinfinmainbeammaybeworked
outbyignoringthe[tc*B*d]reliefofferedbyconcretetoaccountfor
sometwisting).Providesidefacereinforcementtotheextentof0.1%
foranybeamdepth(i.eirrespectiveofbeamdepthlimit)

Withbestregards

vikramjeet

PostedviaEmail

Backtotop
prof.arc Posted:WedAug18,20109:39amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
...
IagreewithDr.NSviews.Modellingassumptionsonreleaseofendmomentsinthecasenow
discussedorintheearlierdiscussionofcolumnjointwithfooting[hingedcondition]
wouldnotoccurinpracticeunlessthejointisengineeredwithahingeincaseofcolumnjunctionor
thesecondarybeamsimplyrestsonapedestalofmainbeam.
Thereshouldbenodifficultyinanalyzingasamonolithicintegratedjoint.
ARC
Joined:26Jan2003

Posts:688

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120 5/7
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
OnTue,Aug17,2010at10:39AM,drnsmani<forum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org)>wrote:
Quote:
HiAll,

Isomehowdonotlikereleasingtheendmoments,asinRCC,thejointsaremonolithicand
howdoweknowwhetherthestructurebehavesintheway,weintendedthemtobehave?

Iamhappytonotethatthesoftwareisgivingawarningthattherewillbeinstability,ifyou
attempttoreleaseendmomentsofasecondarybeamwhichissupportingotherbeams.What
thesoftwaresaysisavalidthing.Thoughyoumaycircumventitbyfollowingthesuggestion
givenbyErRahul,Ifeelthatitisnotagoodpractice.Whydoyouwanttoreleasetheend
moments?CanwenotcheckthebeamsforcombinedBMandTorsion?

Thisismypersonalopinion.IrequestotherexperiencedengineerslikeProf.ARC(asthis
kindofreleasemaybecriticalforlateralloads),ERBarua,ErVikaramjeet,ErRangarajan,Er
Mallick,andErBharsodatoexpresstheirviews.

Bestwishes,

Subramanian

PostedviaEmail

Backtotop

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