Stockhausen On Opera

Stockhausen on Opera
Author(s): Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jerome Kohl

Source: Perspectives of New Music, Vol. 23, No. 2 (Spring - Summer, 1985), pp. 24-39
Published by: Perspectives of New Music
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STOCKHAUSEN ON OPERA
KARLHEJNZ STOCKHAUSEN IN
CONVERSATION WYIH JEROME KOHL*
IN THE PAST 4U ofien have carefully aoided using traditional terms when describing
:r music. For example, yu have said that yu use the wordi "formula" in order to
avoid misundartandings which mght arisefiom traditional words such as "theme" or
"motive. " Yet ymu describe ypr current praect, Licht, as a cycle of " pen~s, " divided
into "scenes. " Don't these terms invite the same sorts of traditional associations?
*Karlheinz Stockhausen, Jerome Kohl. This text is excerpted from two conversa-
tions (conducted in English) which took place on May 31 and June 2, 1984. The first
occurred at the Palazzo dello Sport in Milan, just prior to the fifth performance of
Stockhausen's newest opera, Samstagaus Licht (Saturday from Light). The second con-
versation was held in Florence, where Stockhausen had gone to participate at the Mag-
gio musicale fiorentino, in a performance by the University of Michigan Symphony
Band of the concert version of "Lucifer's Dance," the third scene of Saturday.
Stockhausen on Opera 25
But the word "scene" is very general, isn't it? W

it simply means that there is one situation, and th
and I call these different scenes.
It seems that many of the Italian critics of the prem

expect "opera" to have a dramatic structure along tr
then at least with an argued plot from beginning to e
present dramatic situations that are really quite discont
the same way as in Verdi or Puccini.
No, certainly not! The scenes are sometimes
music the "Moment-form," which means that o
impression of being in an entirely different situ
connections of the music show that it is one proc
So Moment-form shouldn't be misunderstood as comple
elements that have no connection with each other.
No, certainly not! It simply means that there can

common elements, or as few common elements as
moments which have a lot in common. Moment
there is also the extreme of no common material, a
has a certain degree of material that has been used b
going to be used next. And I say "a certain degree
very carefully from moment to moment, betwe
maximum means there is a moment which is so f
past and the future that it is hard to identify this
then: somewhere between definite moments. But
are definitely four moments, which are only rela
Unlike Thursday, this oper has no division into "a
Milan, there is a short intermission before the last scene
out a break?
There's nothing like "ideally," because one has always to respect the people
who participate. I can imagine under certain circumstances to go through with
the performance from beginning to end, if I'm sure that there is a special kind of
public, or that these conditions are announced beforehand, and the people
know that this is going to happen, like in a religious ceremony in certain tradi-
tions, which lasts for hours. But here the one and only intermission has only a
practical reason: that the people can go to the toilet, or something!
There is a bo scene-change there, ofcourse.
That could be done without a break. As a matter of fact, the score says that
the fourth scene can be performed in a church. That was the first idea: to leave
the opera house of La Scala and go across the piazza into San Fedele, and then
perform the fourth scene there. But the director said that in Milano a lot of
people would never go into a church. You see, there are these intellectuals who
think if something is happening in a church, it doesn't interest them. That's
one of the reasons why they went into the Palazzo dello Sport, because they said
26 Perspectives of New Music
that the church has to come to the people. And so then

umns move in around the audience. That could be even e
a whole church suspended around in the dark, and then f
ing the people into a church.
Yes, this fourth scene begins as a very solemn conclusion.
I think it's very funny also: very humorous.
Yes, it is-it becomes more so as it goes on. This bizarre endin
and the coconut ceremony has clearly caused some puzzleme
about death, so whatplace has humor in such an essentially ser
But it's not a serious work at all! The very first scene
how the pianist is treating the piano more and more like a
divan, or a small Cape Canaveral, shooting rockets from
and at the end makingglissandi with the buttocks on t
cluster-glissandos-like in my Tenth Piano Piece-have b
up to this point in this Thirteenth Piano Piece, and finally
whole act of piano-playing a scene of a witch who is bew
The same is true in the second scene, where there is Luc
a giant piano without legs. Already this looks very, very h
percussion players look extremely humorous because of th
instruments attached to their bodies: they look half like m
Yes, extraordinarily frghtening, also.- like zombies ofburned c
Yes! But that also makes you smile. Humor is always c
thing that frightens you, and yet you laugh, because lau
this context.
After the ceremony, with the twenty-four exercises f
death of the body, and Kathinka has descended into the
these eleven trombone-like sounds on the flute of the
dark figures put the flag over the tomb. And then, all o
there is this pushing, and pushing and pushing, and finally
Lucifer comes as a stilt-dancer out of the dark. And again,
the face of everybody, because it has a very humorous e
walks toward a giant face composed of eighty musicians,
really begins.
Here in Milano they have not succeeded in making a
the face which was made by the stage designer didn't pleas
they just took it away and made it very abstract. But I w
tions that the dance-the dance of the left eyebrow, or
eyebrow, or the first dance of the left against the right e
these dances of the different parts of the face cause an ext
effect, like a grimace, which makes children laugh. I ima
people would just crack up laughing because of these in
grimaces, which are the results of the ten parts of the fac
other in different rhythms.
In the last scene it's the same, so that the mon

crazy in the way that they dance and make their
movements.
Could y tell me about what yu're composing now?

I have prepared all the structural plans for Monday, but I won't
write music until August, because as soon as I get home we hav
concerts, and then I want to prepare several scores for the prin
will write a scene from Mondayfrom Loqht: a scene for mixed cho
horn, or another instrument in this register. When I say "or" th
another version for choirs which cannot find a bassett-horn s
work which will be performed at the occasion of a competitio
choirs. The German Society for Choirs has asked me to write th
always during the last seven years I offered one particular scene
can also be performed by itself.
Which scene will this be, within the whole opema?
It is the scene in which someone is announced: a stranger who
the country. A musician. And people say that this musician be
people. This particular scene has a title: "The Announcement.
come in and tell each other that someone has arrived, and at the
have a sort of little festival with a player in their midst. Then
someone has arrived, and then the women run away, full of curio
men come out of different couloirs-corridors-and from behi
approach the beautiful soloist. And there is a moment of abo
know-eight minutes?-when the men sing together with t
bassett-horn player, and then all the women come back and a
stranger, and then they all go to get him. This is a short scene of
minutes.
Would yu describe how vyu have prepared this scheme for all of M
development fim the plan-the formula-for the whole cycle. But what
do you develop this plan?
Monday is a particular section of the whole formula. But the
Monday is subdivided, and again by a projection of the whole f
like, I can get my sketch-book. Then I could be more precise ..
Please, that would be he~pful.
Ja! O.K.! That's better, then!
So! Now I have my sketch-book. If you would like to have a
see the three layers of the Superformula, and the segments

three subsections ...
The first three tempo-groups (Example 1).
6 heM a 63.5.
A4 f K4- I
I imp 4l:K. MI II" , -, -
>C SI I ' f " -R-
o rI
01 i ioi AA AI 3:40 i
06 kg ~
EVAs ERSTGEBURT ZWEITGEBURT UND DERKINDERFANGER

EVAs LIED
EXAMPLE 1: Monday LIMB OF THE SUPERFORMULA

(AFTER THE PLAN IN STOCKHAUSEN'S SKETCH-BOOK)
This is the Lucifer-formula at the bottom, and the Eve-formula in the mid-
die and Michael's formula at the top. The notes which you see here in the
sketchbook are still a photocopy of the Superformula of Thursday. But of the
whole week they are all one major second up. The Michael formula begins with
a high D. And all the other notes which you see here also then are transposed a
major second up.
But what's important is that this first "limb" (as I call it) of the Superfor-
mula, which represents the structural material of Monday, now indicates all the
individual scenes-for me. When the metronome in the Superformula is 60, one
quarter-note of the entire cycle Licht means sixteen minutes. The first scene of
Monday is called In Hoffnunig-"In Hope." It is the first quarter-note: the high
D of the Michael-formula and then the first note of

five notes of the eleven-tuplet of the Lucifer-form
Let me start by explaining the simplest level of su

day. There are three main sections-or I call them
Tei(glieder: "partial limbs." There are three partial
is Monday. The first one's called Evas Erstgeburt-
"Nativity." This corresponds to the first limb of
the first limbs of the Eve and Lucifer formulas.
The second section is the "Second Birth and Ev
Evas Lied. That corresponds to the insert in the
"improvisation" element in Michael's and Eve's fo
major seventh in Lucifer's formula.
Then comes the third partial limb, which is t
pause of Michael, and the "colored" pause of Eve
hiss-in the Superformula, and it is the scale in Lu
"The Children-Catcher," or Kinderfinger in Germ
Now, the first sub-limb-which will be somethi

is subdivided into five scenes. The first scene is I
Hope," or "Pregnancy"), corresponding to the fir
day limb: sixteen minutes.
The next one is called Die Heinzelmannchen. The H
event in the history of Cologne when small dwar
the city of Cologne-in the morning all the work
curious woman put peas on a staircase, and they
back. She wanted to see them in the night-she
them.
So this is afolk-tale?
Yes. An ancient Cologne folk-tale. But in my c
humorous aspect to this folk-tale, because Eve giv
is, according to the Superformula, four minutes l
The third subdivision is a segment of twelve mi
of Birth." Eve sings an aria, like a thanksgiving cer
Then comes a scene which is called Das IKnaben
the Boys," because they're all supposed to sing, b
make all sorts of strange noises: screaming, like b
utes, followed by eight minutes called "Lucifer's
finds the result of this first birth: awful! So he
womb of the woman again, and he says the whole
because the result was too ugly.
Then comes an eight-minute section which is c
means all the women weep (I want to make mus
because Lucifer rejected the first birth. "The Great Weepin

Geweine. So then, the first "act" has come to its end. I don't
make a break after it, but structurally that is the fi
Superformula.
Next comes the "improvisation" section in the Superfor

part of it is sixteen minutes: a scene which is called "The Pr
and Second Birth."' So, there is a procession of many girl
surround finally, after the procession, The Woman, and
thing for a second ... what shall I say, "delivery"? "Deliver
doesn't it? "Second Nativity," we'll say. So then the secon
and then again the whole choir of boys falls out. Within
minutes. There are also sounds of the labor going on durin
utes, from the women's choir. And then there is the "S
then the boys are all this time much better-much better
more talents, etcetera.
Then the heart opens, and there is another scene, whi
Song." That is about thirty minutes long. It's basically a
horn and synthesizers, and the boys' choir is in the backg
Excuse me. You said "the heart opens"?
Yes.
Is thatpart of the scenic... ?

Jajaja!Ja! I told you at the beginning there is ... uh, didn't I say that?
No.
There is a giant woman, who is The Woman. The whole ceremony ofMon-
day is about The Woman. It's a woman's day.
Yes, I know that much, but I didn't know about the scenic desyn.
Ah! I thought I had said that. Monday is Eve's day--the day ofThe Woman.
So Eve gives first birth, and then the second birth, and "Eve's Song" is prac-
tically a concerto for bassett-horn and synthesizers. But in the opera there are
also the boys still singing in the background-boys and trombones. And the
girls' choir is continued.
Then comes the third part of Monday, which is called "The Children-
Catcher." There is at first a section called Die Botschaft- "The Announce-
ment." That's the one I described at the very beginning, where there is a mixed
choir. First there is the bassett-horn alone for about two minutes, and then men
come in, as soon as the bassett-horn starts, and try to make contact with Coeur-
au-Dame-the Lady of the Heart-who is playing bassett-homrn. Then women
come in from all sides, for another two minutes, and they tell the men that a
stranger has arrived. Then the women all run away, for four-and-a-half minutes,
to get the children-catcher, and the men have a tte-a-e--have a very special
kind of part for male choir and bassett-horn. Then the women come back, and
they bring with them the children-catcher, who

many minutes long?... about sixteen... six to . . te
ten to nine. So that would be one-point-six ...
zweihundert... yes) it's about eighteen minutes-b
the time, and the tempi indicate the different dur
I described at the beginning. I didn't tell you ever
the boys who sing in the background in the oper
make comments.
Next comes Der Zauber--"The Magic." This is an eighteen-minute section

for flute and children's choir.
So the children-catcher comes-who is a flutist-and he has a duet with the
bassett-hom, and that is the second nine minutes of the eighteen minutes for
mixed choir with bassett-hom and flute. The flutist all ofa sudden turns toward
the children and bewitches them with his playing, and the bassett-hom player is
left by herself. Then she withdraws into the heart, and the children-catcher, for
eighteen minutes, plays for the children, and they only are interested in him. All
the adults become frightened, and withdraw, and stand around at the walls and
in the comers.
In the last one, which is of similar duration-about eighteen minutes -the

children-catcher goes away with the children to the skies. That is called
Enofihrung--"Abduction." So he abducts the children and then the children
sing while they, in ordered procession, go away with the children-catcher, the
flutist. And then the children's voices become transformed into higher and
higher sounds and the woman transforms herself into a mountain. She becomes
very old, and then there is the mountain family, with a lot of trees, and bushes,
and animals and brooks running out, and then enormous, giant birds-white
birds coming, flying very softly, but shrieking with the children's voices-and
always going in circles around this mountain.
So this is then... (one, two, three, four, five... six, seven, eight, nine, ten...)
theoretically this should not be longer than about a hundred and seventy
minutes.
Theoretically?
Yes, because, strangely enough, all my formal plans are very nice at the begin-
ning, but then when I'm finished I see that my operas are at least one-third
longer than what I had originally planned, because during the work there is also
the necessity of slowing down certain moments, leaving or making spaces
longer, like so-called ritardandos, fermatas, etcetera. Or changes of scene which
have the consequence of making the general duration longer. So I hope Monday
does not become longer. I want to be careful this time.
Aren't there also sometimes a few minutes at the beginning or the end that are outside
of the time of the formula, like at the beginning of Luzifers Traum?
Yes. For example, in Donnerastag, the whole entrance-I think it's about four
or six minutes-the entrance of the parents... I mean, the first sounds which
make the people become quiet in the hall, without their

Because the sounds crescendo very slowly, starting while
the lights are very slowly dimmed. And when they find th
it has taken already almost a minute. And the curtain
long time in Donnerstg--then the parents appear. Anyway,
that this was already four minutes.
And this isfor dramatic purposes?
Yes, but it's also a time ofpreparation. It's not really stru
but like a very slow intonation. Like, say, Indian musicia
drone instrument before they really start playing, or l
theater.
Is this also true of the beginning of Luzifers Abschied, in S

are entering? Is that also outside of the formula-given structure?
Oh, certainly. The first page of the score. Also the fir
Dance." There's a crescendo at the beginning which is a s
but at the same time shows already the entire rhythmic su
of "Lucifer's Dance," with all the tempo changes. I
"Lucifer's Dance" at the beginning, and then it starts.
Then out ofthe Supeiformulauyou have derived or invented all o
Yes, but I dream also-day-dream, so to speak-the w
what I want, and then I look at my Superformula and se
and how I could subdivide it.
Then musically how do you proceed from there? What do yo
for instance, I noticed in the sketches there is the segment of th
superimposed on that the whole Lucifer-kernel.
Yes! The kernel formula, without the accessories. The
scene, "Lucifer's Dream," which has that segment of the
as the entire Lucifer-formula. That shows me that I have
the Eve-formula-the descending scale-and it means for
mula occurs eight times, transposed onto these eight cen
the bass there are five notes of the Lucifer-formula-asc
silence." Then I use the entire Lucifer-formula five times
of thirty-six minutes, transposed onto these five pitches
typical character of the third-pedal resonance, so that all t
in the third pedal-the middle pedal for the pianist-and
They color all the other four layers.
Then, is this how you will be working in Monday also?
For me it would be the same as soon as I come now to
when I need material, I work in the field of Eve. Then I
encounters between the women's choir, which is going t
Michael's formula, and the solo sopranos, which will be
from Eve's formula. And I will have all kinds of interferen
layers. The synthesizers at that moment may be concent
formula-because I don't want to have any men s

boys come, and the boys will be related to the Lu
pitches and material mainly from the Lucifer-form
Is there a single k l-statement, then, of the Eve-fo
Yes, in its entirety. In addition to what I have tol
Thursday, most probably there will be a fifth la
formula.
In the elaborated form.
Yes.
Then is this ageneralprocedure thatou 've followed in Thursday and Saturday, and
will continue with?
I don't know. I have had the feeling for some time that Monday will be very
different-very new for me too, because I have the feeling Monday is the reverse,
because it's the birth. So it's the reverse of everything that I have done up to
now. Most probably all the formulas will be upside-down, will be mirrored: like
The Woman is in respect to the men. I think all the structural material all of a
sudden is going to change drastically in the detail.
Certainly Saturday is already very differentfrom Thursday.
Yes, but now the woman is being the focus. Saturday is still a male thing,
which means I relate to the formulas straightforward as they were composed in
time, but with Eve I go back to the source, and to the mirror of Man, and I see
that all the intervals will be mirrored, which means everything that was ascend-
ing will be descending, etcetera, etcetera. That makes a big change.
So for Eve I want now mainly a field: compose an entire process ofgenerating
constantly new figures formed by the mirroring oforiginal material and by inter-
ferences-as I said at the beginning-between two or even three simultaneous
layers of material. This has already happened as a matter of fact to a large extent
in Donnentag,, in the duet of bassett-horn and trumpet in the second act. There
is a mutual metamorphosis taking place where Eve's material is influencing
Michael's material-on a very small scale-sometimes just two or three notes of
the Eve and then one or two notes of Michael coming into the other formula,
and they form new figures. Because they exchange increasingly their musical
language-their words, their terms. At the end Eve is able to play Michael's for-
mula, and Michael is able to play her formula, but with very strong modulations
which have taken place through this exchange.
Now, in the larger scheme ofLicht there are these three opera that concentrate on a
single character.
That's right.
And then there are three that concentrate on the diferentpairs ofcharacters.
Exactly. And one on all three.
Then in developing those operas with thepairs, would there be single statements of the
kernel fonrmulas for both those two superimposed on the Superanmula segment?
No, I don't know. Most probably there will be mixture

tant combinations of formulas, as in Sirius. When I put
three-when I had the possibility ofadding rhythms of two
taneously, resulting in a totally new rhythm, that is very
like a biological mixture of two species. And there is a m
morphosis can no longer be identified, though this tech
Because it's not an addition of a text, but if a text-rhythm
becomes very close, then they add up to a new duration.
dynamics very much.
So it becomes a total transformation.
Yes! But a steady one. So you start with a very clear "f
"Aries." And you transform "Aries" very slowly into "
and that happens every now and then in Sirius over tw
approximately-so that you know where you start from,
you reach, but in the middle there are very polyvalent m
This is very interesting to me. And also to transform one
but by modulating the pitches with the rhythm, so the pi
according to the characteristics of rhythm.
Havewyu done that in Licht also?
No, not yet; only in Sirius. But all these things I know
them eventually. Or all the processes which I have discov
contractions and expansions- what I call the Spreizung
which are non-linear expansions and contractions-will
tant. This is something that I need in particular for th
between two.
Then whatou're describing here is closely related to whaty u
mui.: .-transorm ...

Yes, except that I have really discovered this non-linea
tortion" I mean the Spreizungen: expansions and contrac
of Mantra because up to then also electronically it was n
We did not have all the apparatuses of voltage-controll
sound production and sound transformation. Though I h
with Springer Machines and with other machines in Hym
expand- to distort, in a non-linear fashion national
them: compress a national anthem to within a major th
that was a vry difficult, laborious process. Incredible! It
imitate pre-existing found objects, like the national anth
with electronic sounds-to "remake" it, so to speak, but
Let's say, putting into a major third, something that norm
a ninth.
This was all done using analogprocessors. Haveyu had any experience yet with diital
synthesis?
Yes. The first work I did last year in IRCAM in Paris. I worked there for some
time (I of course wanted to study the whole proce

version of the second scene of Saturday, which o
and six percussion players. I used exactly the sam
for the percussion players in making electronic
general idea of controlling phases between the p
material for the plate-bells which are playing s
Song," and making them very complex spectra
sounds within each spectrum, and all phase-con
all the partial sounds are perfectly in phase. The
time-processes, they go very slowly in differentg
ent glissando from the others-which causes de-ph
extraordinarily complex kind. So you hear the mo
uous process from one attack to the next, and
that gives an enormous explosion every time, s
speakers. Then there is the next cycle of de-phasin
working with the equipment of the most mode
world.
Certainly doital synthesis would solve many of these

things that can't be done easily with analog equipmen
Maybe. I don't know. Anyway, it was very har
add all my experience of analog composition to
more flexible. Sometimes I even had to add an
procedure in order to get music which is "alive
In America, as you may know, many composers are
thesis-very excited about the possibilities.
Yes, I know that. But as usual, I'm waiting. W
so much excited any more when these people ann
There has been so much announced in the Unit
years ago, when I was teaching there in 1966. Som
me, and writing me letters for months about an
music with holography and God knows what!-at
Arts-and I haven't heard anything interesting.
doesn't excite me! It's not more magic and not m
means more surprising-than any good music whi
completely new kind of percussion. I haven't he
in Paris-which has stunned me. And we have lis
which have been realized in IRCAM now over th
listened to a lot of tapes in the States.
I'm afraid that not much ofanythingfrom 1RCAM
Maybe it's beginning to become so now. But I think t
American composers don't know what's happeni
p le...
But it's very easy to get access to the music-they even g

settes, etcetera. It's only a question of how much effort y
I've read fivm time to time references to the Stockhausen GC

think is not very well known in the United States.
That's amazing! Because there were also scores from t
and-as a matter of fact-when I participated for the first ti
the prize to an American, Robert Moevs, for a Conc
orchestra.
How did the prize come about?
I was told that Benedetto Michelangeli, the pianist, had
on the board of directors of the Festival of Brescia and Ber
festival for pianism-an international piano competiti
encourage new compositions being written, with a prize
paid by the Italian Radio and by Ricordi, the music pub
publication for the composers who do not yet have a pub
winners get a whole series of performances in many cities
ing for the radio.
So then Michelangeli proposed this, together with a ve
composer, Camillo Togni, who lives in Brescia and has som
city's culture. They said: "If the prize should have any
have the name of Stockhausen, because he has written"
opinion) "the most important piano music since the War.
I was willing to give my name for this, and I have partici
three times. It takes place every two years.
The last time there were ninety-eight compositions: sixte
piano and orchestra, two for piano and tape, and the rest
last time we subdivided it among five composers, because
positions was so extraordinary that it should have had th
they make a final program with all the pieces, and some
them the world-premiere of these works, and then the w
recorded.
It's called the Stockhausen Premio. For information you

Office of Tourism in Brescia. The director of this society is
tor of the opera in Brescia and Bergamo-the two cities
together. Orizio is his name, Agostino Orizio-Maestro (h
I have heard thatyou are interested in transcribing some of th

formances that you had done.
Yes! As a matter of fact, the group which played toget
recordings of Aus den sieben Tagen in a bit more than o
Darmstadt in 1968. All these were then released on seven
Grammophon-except one record was made in my house,
because it needs special performance conditions.

in 1970. The people went in different direction
Since then, there hasn't been any group of that kin
a long time and reach a level of quality which i
"pure" I mean, which has relatively few cliches. A
these recordings are historically very interesting
complete new kind of music which draws on the f
ally are not used, because everybody is afraid that
such a method.
And it can!
It does, most of the time! Not only can it, but that is the usual case. But that's
the usual case because the musicians who do it are practically always dilettantes.
And they think if dilettantes deliver themselves to the influence of intuitive
music then it would be good always-or it [the piece] is already guaranteed,
whereas I've said, only the very best musicians, but also musicians who are not
mainly interpreters in the traditional sense, but who tend to have the intui-
tive talent of composers-through this mixture of composer/performer may
reach a level of quality which is unusual. And, well, I think these recordings are
remarkable.
I once found a young man who was very fond of my music, and he asked
what could he do for me, and I said he should just sit down with earphones and
a metronome and a stopwatch and a piano and all kinds of pitch instruments
which can help him to transcribe micro-intervals, etcetera, and transcribe as pre-
cisely as possible the whole recording, like I have transcribed my own electronic
work Sirius, before I added the solo parts. That took several weeks, for each
section. And Hymnen took me three months to transcribe, in order to make
what I call a performance score. I had, actually, also the books with all the details
of how I made the tape, so that I knew more than what I could hear. And so
first of all, with what I knew about how I made the tape, and second with what I
was able to hear myself, with earphones and analytical devices-that led me to
the result of Hymnen, which is now printed. It is not everything-the timbres,
for example, are practically indescribable. Nevertheless there are some instruc-
tions which say what kind of process has been used to produce timbres.
And there is a transcription by this young man. He had never done anything
like that before in his life and he did not have a real musical education, so it's not
usable in the future. But I thought that such works could be transcribed in such
a fashion that they could be even played again, so that they are not lost and that
they remain as models for intuitive playing. Because I think it doesn't do any
harm if we would also have these scores as we have with traditional music-
notated. That doesn't stop us from going further and playing new Intuitive
Music which then again is new. But it is an entirely different kind of music,
which nobody has composed, and which nobody can compose.
And very, very dijicult to perform. To perform well.
Yes, once it would be transcribed it would be very difficu

Oh, certainly, but I meant goingdirectly from the text-in order
esses. it isn't as if you just sort of read the text and then go ah
anything.
No, no! It's also the result of an incredible relationship between me and my
friends. I was able to somehow... bewitch them, because they believed in forces
within themselves that they usually had never thought of. Like Kontarsky, for
example. He had always thought he could never be able to improvise-any-
thing! He is a "classical" pianist, and that's it. He refused to improvise when we
made the first rehearsals for Prozession- "Processions." He said: "That kind of
music is not for me. I will not be able to play it." I said, "Why don't you try?"
And he tried, for a good week, and then he felt that he was able to do something
-also in relation to other musicians of the group-that he had never known was
possible for him. So he discovered something within himself that was new to
him-that he was very happy about.
I don't know what's going to happen in the future. That was an extraor-
dinarily optimistic moment in history. We thought we could just do anything!
That we could make new music every day! Music that we hadn't known before,
ourselves. We felt extraordinarily brave! Daring!!
The late sixties!
Just sit down, and decide: now, we make a record! So! No rehearsal! Just
read the text, close the eyes, think about the text-I mean, beforehand, and
everybody comes with a certain inner preparation, and then, come together and
play a version, and that's it! And then, maybe, play another one, and then
choose one of the two. Everybody knows that you can't really rehearse it.
In your second cycle, Fiir kommende Zeiten, many of the texts are much more
specific about elements. For example, Japan, which has a melody that's written out,
and the last one, with the rhythm.
I see. Ceylon, you mean--with the rhythm. I've played that many times, and
in addition I even made a form-scheme for the recording,3 for the main sec-
tions, where there was a solo for each musician, and then a duet for two others,
etcetera.
Ishould have thought that thatsort ofthing is somehow... cheating-to decide t

in advance.
Oh, no! It's not. It helps.

Have you ever done that with any other Intuitive Music pieces?
Making a form-scheme? No.
There are in this second cycle many texts that are lomger or more specific about details.
the piece Intervall, for instance, where you describe the process quite precisely.
Yes. This I still would like to hear.
Ah! It hasn't been perfonrmed?
I have never heard it. Not yet. I have done it myself-I have played it myself.
And it's very interesting-very good. I mean, it's

though it's highly structured-very subtle.
Are these pieces from Fiir kommende Zeiten a littl
than the earlier ones from Aus den sieben Tagen?
No. The opposite.
More difficult?
Yes, because they give more mental work to d
because the mental activity of the musicians nor
relate to music which they know, which is sim
They're not really able to play intuitively.
Well, I think I've expended my time, and your next
very much.
You're welcome!
NoTEs
1. This scene was later divided into three: Madchen-Prozession, Befiruchtung mit
ICaviersik (ICaierstik XIV), and Zweiyeburt. The title of the second act
has also been altered to Wiedergeburt.
2. Karlheinz Stockhausen, Texte zur Musik, vol. 4 (Cologne: DuMont

Buchverlag, 1978), 154-56, 161-62.
3. Chrysalis CHR 1110. The form scheme is printed in Texte 4:168.

Stockhausen On Opera

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Stockhausen On Opera

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Stockhausen on Opera

Author(s): Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jerome Kohl

But the word "scene" is very general, isn't it? W

It seems that many of the Italian critics of the prem

No, certainly not! It simply means that there can

that the church has to come to the people. And so then

In the last scene it's the same, so that the mon

Could y tell me about what yu're composing now?

So! Now I have my sketch-book. If you would like to have a

see the three layers of the Superformula, and the segments

>C SI I ' f " -R-

EVAs ERSTGEBURT ZWEITGEBURT UND DERKINDERFANGER

EXAMPLE 1: Monday LIMB OF THE SUPERFORMULA

D of the Michael-formula and then the first note of

Let me start by explaining the simplest level of su

Now, the first sub-limb-which will be somethi

because Lucifer rejected the first birth. "The Great Weepin

Next comes the "improvisation" section in the Superfor

Is thatpart of the scenic... ?

they bring with them the children-catcher, who

Next comes Der Zauber--"The Magic." This is an eighteen-minute section

In the last one, which is of similar duration-about eighteen minutes -the

make the people become quiet in the hall, without their

Is this also true of the beginning of Luzifers Abschied, in S

formula-because I don't want to have any men s

No, I don't know. Most probably there will be mixture

Then whatou're describing here is closely related to whaty u

mui.: .-transorm ...

time (I of course wanted to study the whole proce

Certainly doital synthesis would solve many of these

But it's very easy to get access to the music-they even g

I've read fivm time to time references to the Stockhausen GC

It's called the Stockhausen Premio. For information you

I have heard thatyou are interested in transcribing some of th

because it needs special performance conditions.

Yes, once it would be transcribed it would be very difficu

Ishould have thought that thatsort ofthing is somehow... cheating-to decide t

Oh, no! It's not. It helps.

And it's very interesting-very good. I mean, it's

2. Karlheinz Stockhausen, Texte zur Musik, vol. 4 (Cologne: DuMont

3. Chrysalis CHR 1110. The form scheme is printed in Texte 4:168.

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