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I Use of Bernoulli equation for pumps

Tags: bernoulli bernoulli equation pressure pump velocity

Soren4 #1 Jun 24, 2016

I have a doubt on the use of Bernoulli equation for pumps. Consider the situation in
the picture.

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I marked different points: 1 on the surface of rst tank, 2 in the exit from rst tank, 3 just before the pump, 4 just after the pump
and 5 entering the second tank.
Now consider Bernoulli equation in the "normal form" (ignoring the pump)

1 1
2 2
pa + va + gha = pb + v + ghb (1)
b
2 2

And in the form for the presence of pump delivering power P

1 1
2 2
(pa + va + gha )Q + P = (pb + v + ghb )Q (2)
b
2 2

a and b are two generic points among the ones listed above.

My question now is: can I use (2) between any point before the pump and any point after the pump, regardless the height, velocity
and pressure in such points?
I have this doubt because usually one takes point 1 and 5 and uses (2) - and I'm ok with that- but, if the answer to previous
question is yes, I could also choose to use (2) between 1 and 4 or 2 and 5 or 2 and 3 and so on and that sound strange because
the quantity p + 1

2
v
2
+ gh should be the same before and after the pump, indipendently from the particular point chosen. In
other words I should be able to use (1), normal Bernoulli equation, between 1 and 2, which is not very realistic, since the uid in 2
will probably move with a velocity that is in uenced by the pump.

That is, even if 2 is before the pump, the velocity there is different from the situation with no pump. And that's what I cannot
understand here. How is that possible? And can I use (1) between 1 and 2?
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Any suggestion is highly appreciated.

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Tazer sh #2 Jun 26, 2016

There is one slight problem. friction.If your system was frictionless and point a is before trhe pump and b is after it, I suspect the
equation would be correct.
(for any points a and b wich satisfy these conditions)
But because of the friction there is going to be more (whatever the units are called) "upstream" in your equation.
The speci c energy at 4 will be higher than the speci c energy at 5.(ignoring heat)
Adding a friction term into the equation would probably x that.
EDIT: Why exaclty do you want to know that?
Do you want to build soething or is it a theoretical consideration ?

rcgldr #3 Jun 26, 2016

Power is work done or change in energy per unit time. Bernoulli equation is energy
per unit volume, without a time factor. Power can't be combined with Bernoulli as
shown. You'd need a ow rate (volume per unit time) to multiply the Bernoulli
equation into an equation of power.
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I missed the Q factor, which is the ow rate.

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Last edited: Jun 26, 2016

jack action #4 Jun 26, 2016

Soren4 said:

In other words I should be able to use (1), normal Bernoulli equation, between 1 and 2, which is not very realistic, since the uid in 2 will probably move
with a velocity that is in uenced by the pump.

Science Advisor That is, even if 2 is before the pump, the velocity there is different from the situation with no pump. And that's what I cannot understand here. How is that
Gold Member possible? And can I use (1) between 1 and 2?

Yes, the uid will move at (2) because of the pump, but the pressure will also drop (according to (1)).

Think about it: If the static pressure would remain the same, how would the uid from the tank accelerate into the pipe to gain
speed? ma = F = P A

rcgldr #5 Jun 26, 2016

Assuming no losses from the pipes, the standard Bernoulli equation can be used
before or after the pump, just not across the pump.

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Tazer sh #6 Jun 26, 2016

Soren4 said:

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My question now is: can I use (2) between any point before the pump and any point after the pump, regardless the height, velocity and pressure in such
points?

I think we agree, that yes you can use it like that.(If you ignore friction)

Soren4 said:

In other words I should be able to use (1), normal Bernoulli equation, between 1 and 2, which is not very realistic, since the uid in 2 will probably move with
a velocity that is in uenced by the pump.

I think it is realistic.
The pump only produces lower pressure. It does no direct work on the uid its puling in.
The velocity will increase at the "cost" of the pressure.

It confuses me a little that the pumps seems to not do any work on the uid it is "sucking" in.
That certainly holds up(again ignoring friction) if you look at a pump that sucks in a given volume and pushes it out somewhere
else but when you consider an more "open" pump like a turbine I would be somewhat at loss.
Do thesee kinds of pumps still not do any work on the uid they are sucking in( far away from the pump the answer is probably
yes) ?
Where do you draw the line between the fuild that has been given the extra bit of energy by the pump and the uid that hasn't ?

Nidum #7 Jun 26, 2016

A positive displacement pump working steady state can be modelled as a ow sink on the inlet side and a ow source on the
delivery side .

Gets a bit more complicated for rotodynamic pumps .

Science Advisor
Gold Member .

rcgldr #8 Jun 26, 2016

Tazer sh said:

It confuses me a little that the pumps seems to not do any work on the uid it is "sucking" in.

The pump only performs work on the uid within the pump. The pressure increase (sometimes called a pressure jump) times the
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volume ow rate equals the output power of the pump.

Tazer sh #9 Jun 27, 2016

rcgldr said:

The pump only performs work on the uid within the pump. The pressure increase (sometimes called a pressure jump) times the volume ow rate equals the
output power of the pump.

Yeah that is the conclusion I came to after thinking a bit about it.It is just very counter-intuitive for me.
Can you maybe answer my previous question ?

Tazer sh said:

...but when you consider an more "open" pump like a turbine...

Tazer sh said:

Where do you draw the line between the fuild that has been given the extra bit of energy by the pump and the uid that hasn't ?

Is the pressure jump more like a pressure gradient in these cases ?

Is that consideration even relevant in any way ?

jack action #10 Jun 27, 2016

Why do you think a turbine-like pump performs work on the uid before its entrance? Is it because the uid speeds up? Because
the energy to accelerate the uid comes from its static pressure which decreases as the speed increases. The result is no added
energy to the uid. Just like as if it was a convergent nozzle.

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Science Advisor
Gold Member
The energy begins to increase when the uid enters the rst rotor-stator assembly.

rcgldr #11 Jun 27, 2016

rcgldr said:

The pump only performs work on the uid within the pump. The pressure increase (sometimes called a pressure jump) times the volume ow rate equals the
output power of the pump.
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Tazer sh said:

Is the pressure jump more like a pressure gradient in these cases ? Is that consideration even relevant in any way ?

Within the pump there's a pressure gradient, in this case increasing from the inlet to the outlet. It doesn't matter where in the
internals of the pump that the pressure increases, only that the pump maintains a pressure difference between the inlet port and
the outlet port.

Since mass ow is constant within the pump, and assuming no compression (no change in density), and that the inlet and outlet
ports are the same size, then the volume ow through the pump is constant and only the pressure increases.

jack action said:

Because the energy to accelerate the uid comes from its static pressure which decreases as the speed increases. The result is no added energy to the uid.

If anything, it is the pressure differences that cause acceleration. Stating the somewhat obvious, uid accelerates away from a
higher pressure zone towards a lower pressure zone. Bernoulli provides an equation that describes the relationship between
velocity and pressure during the acceleration. Pressure is potential energy per unit volume, while 1/2 density velocity2 is kinetic
energy per unit volume. Bernoulli doesn't explain how pressure differential are created, only that they exist. In this case, the pump
is responsible for creating and maintaining the pressure differences.

jack action #12 Jun 27, 2016

rcgldr said:

If anything, it is the pressure differences that cause acceleration.

[...]
Science Advisor
Gold Member In this case, the pump is responsible for creating and maintaining the pressure differences.

I'm not sure if we are saying the same thing, but I will state my POV in another way:

The pump accelerates the uid inside the pump. The uid leaves the inlet to go toward the outlet. This leaves an emptiness at
the inlet, i.e no uid [1]. The pressure at the inlet of the pipe will then push on the uid in the pipe to accelerate it towards the
pump inlet, attempting to create equilibrium once again. The result is a decrease in the pipe static pressure as no outside work was
done on the uid.

The point I'm trying to make is that the pump might create the conditions for the uid being accelerated within the pipe, but the
energy to do so does not come from the pump.

If there was not enough static pressure at the inlet of the pipe to convert to the desired dynamic pressure (given a pipe cross-
sectional area), the expected mass ow rate will not be achieved and the pump would starved. Knowing that p and
1 2
o = vmax
2
2

, therefore p is the ultimate lower limit for the static pressure to get the desired mass ow rate.
(m/A)
m = Av o >
2

[1] Actually, pressure will drop, but it is just to picture the process.

rcgldr #13 Jun 27, 2016

jack action said:

The pump accelerates the uid inside the pump.

From my prior post:

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rcgldr said:

Since mass ow is constant within the pump, and assuming no compression (no change in density), and that the inlet and outlet ports are the same size, then
the volume ow through the pump is constant and only the pressure increases.

At start up, there is acceleration of ow, but once the ow reaches steady state, then there's no net acceleration of uid by the
pump ( ow rate out = ow rate in, assuming no change in density), just an increase in pressure.

jack action #14 Jun 27, 2016

accelerates was a bad choice of word from my part. sets in motion might have been better.

Science Advisor
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