Reflections on the Self

J. Krishnamurti

Third Public Dialogue in Saanen

August 1971

Is there such difference, or is there not an interrelationship between the

mind, the heart and the body - interrelated - you cannot separate each one
as though some kind - you follow? - they are all interrelated, obviously.
Psychosomatic. Soma means the body, and psyche - it is psychosomatic
movement. Now, to understand - please listen to this - to understand this
whole structure, in which there is the mind, the brain, the heart, and the
body - the whole structure - where shall we begin? Shall we begin at any -
it is a whole thing - you follow? If I begin with the mind or with the heart or -
it is the same - no?

I'll put it differently. I see the interrelationship between the body, heart and
the mind..

Shall I begin by watching the body, what it should eat, why it eats, why it
indulges - you follow? - yielding to the taste of the tongue and eating more
and more? Or shall I watch it, shall I watch this whole structure from an
emotional standpoint because I am an emotional person, I love people, I
have pleasure seeing people, I look at the mountains and say, oh lovely
they are. And also I look at my thoughts, I say, how stupid these little
thoughts are. So, knowing all are interrelated with each other, where -
that's it - where is the central clue, central point from which to start
understanding of the three - you have got it? Have I made it clear?

There are these three elements which compose the human being: the
mind, the heart and the body, the whole of that. Is there a point, or a central
point, which awakened will deal with the three as a whole?

This gentleman says: watching. Watching the body, watching all the
feelings one has, which is called heart and all that, love, jealousy, and
watching the operations of the mind - watching. Right? That is, being
watchful, being alert, being aware. If the mind... if I can be aware, be aware
the operations of the mind, the operations of my feelings and how I eat,
what I eat - aware - perhaps then I could understand each one. So the
importance is watching - right? - being aware of the mind with all its
thoughts, its cunning, its motives, its deceptions, saying I won't take
photographs of you but subtly taking photographs of me - you know? - all
the rest of it - watching. And also watching my feelings, how easily I am
hurt because I just can't get my way, I am hurt because I want to be a big
man and you treat me like a little man - hurt. So watching: watching how I...
what I eat, how quickly I eat, what kind of appetite I have - you follow? -
watching. Now, if that is the central thing - you understand? - watching -
then my next question is: how am I to watch? You follow? What is implied
in watching? Go on, sir.

How do you watch? Because the manner of your watching teaches you
everything. The manner of watching helps you to learn, but if you don't
know how to watch you can't learn. Right? If I don't know the art of
listening, I can't learn. So I must find out what it means to watch, what it
means to observe, mustn't I?

Now, next questioning: how do I observe my mind - please listen to it - how

do I observe the mind? How do I observe the movement of my demands for
happiness, pleasure - you follow? - excitement? And how do I watch the
body? So I must find out the art of watching. Now, is the art of watching to
be cultivated - please listen - cultivation implies time, doesn't it. I will watch
today a little bit, tomorrow I will watch a little more and at the end of the
year I shall be completely watching. That is, the cultivation of watching
takes time - right? - which means when you take time you are not watching.
Right? When you say to yourself, look, at the end of the year I will be very
good at watching, in the meantime you are not watching, are you? So
watching, observing, seeing, is not the result of cultivation, system or time.
Right? Please, come on. Right, sir? Be quite sure that watching doesn't
imply any kind of time. So I must find out what it is that doesn't imply time.
That is, when I watch myself - it's very complex, this, please - when I watch
myself, which is the mind, the body, the heart, which is myself, how am I
watching? Am I watching in order to change what I see? Right? Change,
which means reject and keep some, saying to myself, this is good, this is
bad, I'll throw away the bad and keep the good. So if I watch myself with
the eyes of condemnation, judgement, evaluation, then I am watching
myself with the eyes of the past. Right? You see the truth of that? That is,
when I watch myself with a condemnatory attitude then I am not watching, I
am judging. If I am watching in order to overcome it, I am not watching.
Right? So, if you see the truth that in watching if there is any kind of
judgment, any kind of evaluation, try to overcome, escape, that prevents
watching - if you see the truth of that immediately you will watch without
any of that. Right?

So, look, you want to do something without time - I am showing it to you.

Recognition. Look, he says, apart from condemning, judging, evaluating,

what part recognition plays in it. I'll show you. I am angry. I have said I must
not judge, I mustn't condemn - you follow? - I see the truth of it therefore
that's has gone. I am no longer judging, but there is the recognition of
anger. Right? Now, what takes place there, when I recognise? I have
named it, haven't I? Right? No? Come on, don't go to sleep, please. I have
recognised it, haven't I, as anger? That means I have been angry before
many times, and that has left a mark on the brain, and that brain now says
that is anger. Verbally it has stated it is anger. The very word 'anger' has
connotation, that is, don't be angry, because that is part of our culture, part
of our inheritance, we mustn't be angry. Or indulge in anger? You follow?
So - are you following all this? Yes, sir?

can't help it. That's a tall tree. I don't mistake the tree for an elephant. But -
just a minute, go into it - but when I recognise that I am angry that is quite a
different movement taking place. The very naming it is condemning it,
because I have named it in order to fix it as anger, which the generations
have said don't be angry.

Q: Then there is condemnation.

K: Therefore - I am saying that. So, can I... is there an observation without

judgement, evaluation, though I recognise it and not attach it to the past.
You follow? It isn't so simple as all this. So when you see that, the truth of
that, then you are watching completely without any obsession. Now can
you do that now? No, don't say no.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Now wait a minute. He said, when I am watching, the questioner says,

there is a tenseness in the body. Are you watching with your body? Are you
watching with the eyes? Or are you watching, not with the eyes - you
understand, sir, what I mean? How are you watching, sir? Are you watching
yourself with eyes closed? Or watching yourself with eyes open? You can
do both, can't you? So what do you mean by watching? Go on, sir.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Why should the body be in tension when you are watching? Which
means either you are watching with tension in your mind, and therefore the
tension is transferred to the body, or you are watching without any
interference of the mind or of the body - just watching. When you are
watching with an image, when you are watching yourself with the idea that
there must be change then there is tension. Right? But if you are just
watching. Look sir, suppose if I have a habit of scratching myself or fiddling
with my fingers - right? - haven't you got habits like that, fiddling with your
fingers, or doing something - can you watch it without wanting to change it,
without wanting to stop it? Just watch it. Haven't you done it? Oh lord, you
don't mean to say - please! Then you will see, if you watch it, there is no
strain. But if you say, 'I must not fiddle with my fingers' - right? - I tighten
up. But if I just watch it, in that there is no tension. That's simple enough.
Let's go on.

So what is important is how I watch. That is really important. So, watching -

listen to this - has it anything to do with the mind, with the heart, or with the
body? I am not saying it has, or it has not. We are enquiring. I am watching.
Is watching a conclusion by the mind, I must watch, a determination and
therefore will. If there is will in operation there must be tension. Right? Oh
lord!

Q: (Inaudible)
K: I am going to go into that, sir, go slowly with me. So I am asking: what is
watching? Is watching the result of determination, therefore it is part of the
mind - right? - it says, 'I must watch', because I must lead a harmonious
life. That is, thought says to itself, 'I must be harmonious', therefore thought
is watching. You are following? Is that clear? When thought is watching
there is tension. Thought says, 'I must watch', 'I must sit still', 'I mustn't
fiddle with my fingers'. Then thought exercises its determination to watch
and in that watching there is the operation of will, and where there is
operation of will there is resistance, and when there is resistance there is
tension. Right? So I am asking: are you watching with the determination of
thought - right? - or, are you watching independent of thought. And
therefore what does that independence of thought mean? See, please, sir,
this is... Go into it. You see you can't sustain a long, steady enquiry. You
go to pieces in the middle of it.

Q: Sir...

K: Just a minute, sir. You see, I am saying - listen: you can't sustain
sequential observation, step by step and sustain it. Because I see you give
attention for a couple of seconds, and gone! This requires watching. Not
concentration but watching. In watching you are learning. I am doing that
now. I say when I am watching, if there is in that watching any operation of
thought, that must inevitably result in tension, in contradiction, in
resistance, because it is the determination of thought to achieve harmony,
and therefore it says, 'I must'. So I have learnt. I am asking myself then
what is watching, if it isn't thought, then what is this quality of watching in
which there is no thought? Go on, sir. Is it the heart watching? Emotion, the
desire, the feeling how beautiful it must be - you follow? - if I live a
harmonious life, what a lovely thing it will be - getting excited by the image
of harmony, which is also a resistance.

So am I watching with any kind of resistance? You are following? And is

that watching related to the mind, to the heart, or to the body? Or is it
something outside of it? Wait, wait. I don't... I am not saying it is, don't jump
to it. I am asking, enquiring. When there is no resistance, no operation of
will - right? - no acceptance or denial, just watching, is that watching the
exercise of thought? We said no - right? Are you quite sure? Oh lord! If it is
the exercise of thought, then thought is watching - right? - and thought
says, 'I am watching because I want to get somewhere', 'I must get rid of
my imbalance', 'I must not be neurotic' - thought is in operation because
thought has been instructed by listening to this talk that it must live a
harmonious life. And thought according to that instruction is trying to live,
because it wants to live a harmonious life. It doesn't matter what it means,
but it wants to. So thought is not watching. Right? Emotion isn't watching,
obviously. If I say, 'I love to...' - you follow? - then it is lost. So what is then
watching, what is the quality of watching? Do live with it for two minutes.
Don't answer me please, just look at it. It is not thought, obviously. Right?
You are quite sure? The moment it is thought - thought is memory, the old -
thought then says, 'I must', 'I must not', then in that there is contradiction
and therefore that is not watching. We have been through that. Therefore
watching is not the product of thought. Listen to it carefully. You have it if
you go step by step. It is not emotional, aggressive assertion that I must
watch. It is not getting enthusiastic about watching.

So what is watching? Now listen to this carefully. I'll repeat this. You will
see it. It is not thought because thought has said, I'll watch; in watching it
has discovered it is operating from the past. Right? That it must achieve
harmony because it has heard some person say, 'You must live a
harmonious life', therefore it says, 'I must, it must be a marvellous state'. So
thought wants to live a life of harmony and thought cannot live a life of
harmony because thought is the response of memory which is the past.
Right? Harmony means living now. Right? So it is not thought. I have learnt
that. The mind has learnt it is not thought. Therefore what is it? It is
intelligence, isn't it? Right?

Now it is intelligence that is watching.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Sir, don't bring in impersonal or personal - first see that when thought
interferes there must be tension, there must be operation of will, there must
be resistance, there must be overcoming because thought can only
function in terms of the past. Obvious, sir. Right? Unless you see that, see
the truth of that you will still be watching with thought.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: Not quite, sir. Look, sir.

Q: (Inaudible)

K: That's right. Now - sir look.

What is analysis? I am going back to it - you follow? - a little bit. Analysis is

observation, isn't it. A form of observation. Right? No? No? I watch, and
watching myself I say, 'I have been angry', why I've I been angry, the
explanations. The cause, the justification - all that is part of analysis, which
is part of thought, isn't it. And analysis takes time. And at the end of it I say
that anger was justified or that anger is not justified, therefore I must be
watchful next time, I will get only angry when it is justified - righteous anger
and irrighteous - right. So look what is happening. Then thought is
awakened to anger and watching anger. Right? Then what takes place?
The thought is the observer, isn't it. Then the observer is different from the
thing which observes his anger. Right? In that observation there is
contradiction and therefore conflict, therefore the observer says, 'I must get
rid of anger'. So, in looking at thought, observing, not saying, 'I must not
use thought', 'I must use thought', in observing thought and all the activities
of thought, out of that observation comes intelligence. This intelligence is
the result of observation of the workings of thought.

So, now, that intelligence is watching. Right? Is watching the mind,

watching the body, watching the heart. That intelligence says don't eat that
food - listen to this carefully - because yesterday you had pain, give it up.
And because intelligence is in operation you give it up instantly.

Q: That's memory, sir.

K: Wait, no, listen carefully - I knew... I said, sir, intelligence is not thought.
Intelligence comes into being in observing the operations of thought -
observing, not condemning it or accepting it, just watching thought. Right?
How thought operates. You know, watch it yourself, you will see. In that
watching intelligence comes. Now, that intelligence is watching. Right? And
I eat the wrong thing, when that intelligence is watching - listen to it - it's
also aware of the causation of... which is the past. So intelligence doesn't
neglect the cause, is aware of the cause and the result. Oh, you won't get
all this. But it is not memory which is... it is intelligence that perceives the
whole movement of causation.

K: Yes that's right. Watching, if you have understood the whole process of
thought, is intelligence. Watching is intelligence if you understand the whole
movement of thought.

K: I know, sir. I am moving it away from it. Watching is intelligence. But

mere watching is not intelligence, but watching the whole movements of the
operations of thought - you understand? - seeing how it works - haven't you
done all these things, for god's...

K: No, sir. Let's begin slowly. Thought is measurable, isn't it. Be clear.
Thought is measurable. I can measure thought. My thought is better, wider,
nobler - you follow? - comparative. Is intelligence measurable?

K: Don't say yes and no. Let's find out. You see your mind is so conditioned
you can't go through with it. I want to find out whether intelligence is limited,
conditioned - born in India it is more intelligent than born in the West, or
more intelligent because it was born in the West than in India - is
intelligence personal, impersonal - you follow? - all those are
measurements. And that measurement is thought. Thought is deciding
whether it is personal or impersonal intelligence. Oh come on, sir. Right?

. Therefore find out if you are watching with thought. Right? Don't bother
about intelligence. You see that is another trick! Find out how you are
watching; whether you are watching with thought. And most of us are
watching with thought.

K: The question is: hasn't thought to be silent when you are watching -
right?
K: Quite right, but the silence can only come when you understand the
whole machinery of thought. Therefore when you understand the whole
machinery of thought, thought becomes quiet, and when it is quiet
intelligence operates. That's all. Golly! (Laughter)

K: Wait, sir. I understand. To you that word 'intelligence' has certain

associations. If I use the word 'god' is watching, you would object to that
because you have other associations with that word.

K: Wait, sir. Just see. I am going to expand it a little more. If I say it is the
higher self watching...

Q: ...atman.

K: (Laughs) There we are! Or if I was in India, and the atman is watching

then they would accept it. Therefore we are not associating intelligence
with any particular conditioning. Intelligence is non - what's the word? - you
cannot associate intelligence with anything. Then if you do it is not
intelligence. Ah! You've got it.

K: Sir, please, don't be so categorical. Examine it, play with it, go into it.

Q: Sir, the mind looking at awareness, looking, see the continuous flow or
movement and then it seems to stop at a certain point, and at that point the
observer seems to come into being. Can intelligence... (inaudible)

K: No, sir. Certainly not. It is like saying, when you are aware of danger can
you at the moment not be aware of it at all. You are walking down the street
and you are aware at one moment the bus is dangerous and the next
moment you are not aware of it and you will be killed.

K: Now, please be careful. Does intelligence only function in the present,

independent of the past and the future. Which means, is intelligence out of
time? That's right? Thought is in time. Right? Thought is time. And is
intelligence time? Sir, you have to...

We began by asking what is a harmonious life. We said, we more or less

defined verbally - and what is described is not the described, the
description is not the described - and we said we live a disharmonious life
and not a harmonious life. And that is a fact. And the ideal is out, that is
gone, because I see the truth of the ideal. Now I am left with this, that I live
a life which is not harmonious and I see why it is not. It is contradictory and
so on, so on. Then I say, who is watching all this? If thought is watching it is
still the past watching the present, and so there is division between past
and the present. Then the past tries to overcome the present, therefore
there is resistance against the present, therefore there is strain. So then
what is watching? Is there a watching which is not the result of thought?
Right?

Q: Is there awareness of the thinking process?

K: Awareness of the thinking process.

K: That's right. Go slowly, go slowly. The past, if thought is watching then

there must be division: the past watching the present. Right? In that
watching there is contradiction, therefore there is conflict and all the rest of
it. So is there a watching - please listen to it - without the past thought
coming into it? I see that there is such a watching and that watching is an
awareness in which thought doesn't come into it at all.

K: Now here, I have explained for an hour and a quarter, in discussion, the
nature and the structure of thought. Right? And when you watch the nature
and the structure of thought, see where it is important, where it is not
important, see the truth of that - you follow? - the truth of its operation and
its non-operation, then there is a different kind of watching. That is all I am
saying. That watching has no time. It is not based on time. It is not what I
discover. If you apply your mind, your awareness you will discover it for
yourself. Full stop.