Stan Stabler Deposition

J. Stanley Stabler, Sr.
1 (1 - 4)
Page 3
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF 1 Please be advised that this is the
2 MONTGOMERY COUNTY, ALABAMA 2 same and not retained by the Court Reporter,
3 3 nor filed with the Court.
4 CIVIL ACTION NO: 03-CV-2016-900538 4 *************
5 5
6 SPENCER COLLIER, 6
7 Plaintiff, 7
8 vs. 8
9 ROBERT BENTLEY; et al., 9
10 Defendants. 10
11 11
12 12
13 STIPULATION 13
14 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 14
15 between the parties through their respective
15
16 counsel, that the videotaped deposition of
16
17 Joseph Stanley Stabler, Senior, may be taken
17
18 before Angela Smith McGalliard, CCR, at the
18
19 offices of Maynard, Cooper & Gale, at 445
19
20 Dexter Avenue, Suite 8040, Montgomery, Alabama
20
21 36104, on the 17th day of July, 2018.
21
22
22
23 DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH STANLEY STABLER, SENIOR
23
Page 2 Page 4
1 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 1 *************
2 that the signature to and the reading of the 2 INDEX
3 deposition by the witness is waived, the 3 EXAMINATION
4 deposition to have the same force and effect as 4 PAGE LINE
5 if full compliance had been had with all laws 5 By Mr. Mendelsohn.................... 11 9
6 and Rules of Court relating to the taking of 6 By Mr. Segall........................ 293 23
7 depositions. 7 EXAMINATION CONTINUED
8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 8 PAGE LINE
9 that it shall not be necessary for any 9 By Mr. Mendelsohn.................... 316 8
10 objections to be made by counsel to any 10 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
11 questions except as to form or leading 11 PAGE LINE
12 questions, and that counsel for the parties may 12 Plaintiff's Exhibit 5-A - Complete
13 make objections and assign grounds at the time 13 copy of Spencer Collier
14 of the trial, or at the time said deposition is 14 timeline from Impeachment
15 offered in evidence, or prior thereto. 15 Committee Report........... 9 13
16 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 16 Plaintiff's Exhibit 5-B - Pages
17 that in accordance with Rule 5(d) of The 17 from Spencer Collier
18 Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure, as Amended, 18 timeline from Impeachment
19 effective May 15, 1988, I, Angela Smith 19 Committee Report sent by
20 McGalliard, am hereby delivering to Kenneth J. 20 J. Neiman.................. 9 14
21 Mendelsohn the original transcript of the oral 21 Plaintiff's Exhibit 5-C - Redacted
22 testimony taken on the 17th day of July, 2018, 22 pages from Spencer
23 along with the exhibits. 23 Collier timeline from
Freedom Court Reporting, A Veritext Company 877-373-3660
J. Stanley Stabler, Sr. 2 (5 - 8)
Page 5 Page 7
1 Impeachment Committee 1 APPEARANCES (continued):
2 Report..................... 9 14 2 RICHARD E. TREWHELLA, JR., ESQUIRE,
3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 16 - Email from 3 of CONSTANGY, BROOKS, SMITH & PROPHETE, Two
4 D. Bentley to L. Adams, 4 Chase Corporate Drive, Suite 120, Birmingham,
5 July 15, 2015.............. 86 1 5 Alabama 35244, appearing on behalf of the
6 Plaintiff's Exhibit 17 - Email from 6 Defendant, Michael Robinson.
7 B. Hardwich to S. Stabler.. 155 22 7 ROBERT D. SEGALL, ESQUIRE, of
8 Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 - Letter 8 COPELAND, FRANCO, SCREWS & GILL, 444 S. Perry
9 from T. McCollum........... 269 18 9 Street, Montgomery, Alabama 36104, appearing on
10 Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 - WHNT News 10 behalf of the Defendant, RCM.
11 article dated May 11, 2016. 281 22 11 DOUGLAS N. ROBERTSON, ESQUIRE, of
12 ************* 12 GRAY & ASSOCIATES, 3800 Colonnade Parkway,
13 13 Suite 350, Birmingham, Alabama 35243, appearing
14 14 on behalf of the Defendant, Rebekah Mason.
15 15 ALSO PRESENT: Spencer Collier
16 16 Michael Robinson
17 17 VIDEOGRAPHER: Ted Yost
18 18 ******
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
Page 6 Page 8
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF 1 I, Angela Smith McGalliard, CCR, a
2 MONTGOMERY COUNTY, ALABAMA 2 Court Reporter of Pike Road, Alabama, acting as
3 CIVIL ACTION NO: 03-CV-2016-900538 3 Commissioner, certify that on this date, as
4 SPENCER COLLIER, 4 provided by the Alabama Rules of Civil
5 Plaintiff, 5 Procedure and the foregoing stipulation of
6 vs. 6 counsel, there came before me at the offices of
7 ROBERT BENTLEY; et al., 7 Maynard, Cooper & Gale, at 445 Dexter Avenue,
8 Defendants. 8 Suite 8040, Montgomery, Alabama 36104,
9 9 beginning at 10:16 a.m., Joseph Stanley
10 BEFORE: 10 Stabler, Senior, witness in the above cause,
11 Angela Smith McGalliard, 11 for oral examination, whereupon the following
12 Commissioner. 12 proceedings were had:
13 13 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins disk
14 APPEARANCES: 14 number one in the deposition of Stan Stabler,
15 KENNETH J. MENDELSOHN, ESQUIRE, of 15 in the matter of Spencer Collier versus Robert
16 JEMISON & MENDELSOHN, at 1772 Platt Place, 16 Bentley, et al.; Case Number 03-CV-2016-900538
17 Montgomery, Alabama 36117, appearing on behalf 17 in the Circuit Court of Montgomery County,
18 of the Plaintiff. 18 Alabama. We're on the Record at 10:17 a.m., on
19 STEPHANIE H. MAYS, ESQUIRE, of 19 Tuesday, July 17, 2018. This deposition is
20 MAYNARD, COOPER & GALE, 1901 Sixth Avenue 20 taking place in Montgomery, Alabama. My name
21 North, Suite 2400, Birmingham, Alabama 35203, 21 is Ted Yost representing Freedom Court
22 appearing on behalf of the Defendants, Robert 22 Reporting.
23 Bentley and Stan Stabler. 23 Would counsel identify yourself
Page 9 Page 11
1 and state whom you represent. 1 JOSEPH STANLEY STABLER, SENIOR,
2 MR. MENDELSOHN: Kenny 2 being first duly sworn, was examined and
3 Mendelsohn, I represent Spencer Collier. 3 testified as follows:
4 MR. SEGALL: Bobby Segall, I 4 COURT REPORTER: Usual
5 represent RCM. 5 stipulations?
6 MR. ROBERTSON: Doug Robertson, 6 MR. MENDELSOHN: Fine by me.
7 I represent Rebekah Mason. 7 MS. MAYS: That's fine.
8 MR. TREWHELLA: Richard 8 EXAMINATION
9 Trewhella, I represent Michael Robinson. 9 BY MR. MENDELSOHN:
10 MS. MAYS: Stephanie Mays, I 10 Q. All right. State your name for
11 represent Stan Stabler and Governor Robert 11 the Record.
12 Bentley. 12 A. Joseph Stanley Stabler, Senior.
13 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 13 Q. I don't need your street address,
14 Exhibits 5-A, 5-B, and 5-C 14 but what city do you live in?
15 were marked for 15 A. Daphne.
16 identification purposes.) 16 Q. How long have you lived in
17 MR. MENDELSOHN: Before we ask 17 Daphne?
18 questions, I want to put on the Record what I 18 A. Twenty-eight years.
19 was discussing with y'all before we went on. 19 Q. Are you married?
20 At Robert Bentley's deposition I 20 A. Yes.
21 identified as Exhibit 5 an exhibit from the 21 Q. How long have you been married?
22 Impeachment Committee's report that is phrased 22 A. Twenty-nine years.
23 as a timeline re: Spencer Collier. There were 23 Q. Do you have kids?
Page 10 Page 12
1 several pages that had redacted information 1 A. Yes. Three.
2 that, after the deposition, John Neiman 2 Q. How old are they?
3 provided me with. 3 A. Thirty-three, thirty, and
4 So I have marked as an Exhibit B 4 twenty-five.
5 the pages that John sent to me; Exhibit C is 5 Q. Okay. Give us your educational
6 the redacted pages from the original exhibit 6 background, please.
7 that I removed out; and then Exhibit 5-A is now 7 A. I graduated high school from
8 a copy that I have made where I took the 8 Fairhope High School; I attended the University
9 original exhibit, removed the redacted pages, 9 of Mobile, which was Mobile College at the
10 and put in the unredacted pages, so that we 10 time, for about three years; changed degrees;
11 could have a complete copy. 11 graduated from the University of South Alabama
12 I would point out that one of the 12 with a bachelor's in law enforcement
13 ways you can tell is all of the pages were 13 administration.
14 originally Bates stamp 0TG starting at 188, the 14 Q. Okay. What was your first law
15 unredacted pages I got from John do not have 15 enforcement job?
16 Bates stamps at the bottom, so if you look 16 A. With the City of Saraland,
17 through it, you'll see five pages that have no 17 Saraland Police Department.
18 Bates stamps. Those are the ones that are the 18 Q. When would that have been?
19 unredacted copy, but to me it's still easier to 19 A. 1985.
20 follow 5-A if we need to. So with that I'm 20 Q. Was that right after you got out
21 ready if everyone else is. 21 of college or was it during college?
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the reporter 22 A. Well, I didn't graduate college
23 please swear in the witness. 23 before I took the job. So it was in between
Page 13 Page 15
1 attending college the first time and then 1 Q. When you went home to Daphne,
2 finishing college. 2 what did you drive?
3 Q. Okay. So after you left Mobile 3 A. My personal vehicle.
4 College, you took the job at Saraland? 4 Q. So you'd drive your personal
5 A. Yes. 5 vehicle to Monroe County, get a trooper
6 Q. And then you went back and 6 vehicle, and then when you went back home, you
7 finished up your degree at University of South 7 drove your personal vehicle?
8 Alabama? 8 A. Yes, sir. With a couple of
9 A. Correct. 9 exceptions.
10 Q. How long did you work with 10 Q. Tell me those exceptions.
11 Saraland PD? 11 A. If I had a pending court case in
12 A. Two and a half years. 12 Baldwin County that was left over from when I
13 Q. What was your next job after 13 worked at Daphne.
14 that? 14 Q. Okay. And in that case, you were
15 A. Daphne Police Department. 15 allowed to take the patrol car?
16 Q. How long did you do that? 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. I think almost six. 17 Q. Were you paid any per diem when
18 Q. What was your highest rank in 18 you were working in Monroe County?
19 Daphne? 19 A. No, sir.
20 A. Corporal. 20 Q. Okay. After Monroe County, where
21 Q. After you left Daphne, where did 21 did you go?
22 you go? 22 A. I transferred to Baldwin County.
23 A. Department of Public Safety, the 23 Q. And where is the post in Baldwin
Page 14 Page 16
1 State. 1 County?
2 Q. And when -- What year would that 2 A. The post is actually in Mobile.
3 be? 3 Q. Okay. But you were assigned to
4 A. '93. 4 Baldwin County?
5 Q. Where were you assigned? 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. After graduating the academy, I 6 Q. Same type, patrol, state trooper?
7 was assigned to Monroe County. 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Did you live in Monroe County? 8 Q. How long did you do that?
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 A. I was a highway patrol I think
10 Q. Family move there? 10 until '97, when I transferred to ABI.
11 A. No, sir. 11 Q. And your last rank before going
12 Q. Did you go home on weekends? 12 into the ABI was what?
13 A. On my off days. 13 A. Trooper.
14 Q. Off days, yes, sir. 14 Q. And you went into ABI as an
15 How long did you work in Monroe 15 investigator; right?
16 County? 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. I think it was about fourteen 17 Q. Okay. And ABI stands for Alabama
18 months. 18 Bureau of Investigations?
19 Q. And you were a state trooper? 19 A. That's correct.
20 A. Yes, sir. Highway patrol 20 Q. And now, after the consolidation
21 division. 21 and ALEA, they changed that name essentially to
22 Q. Were you furnished a patrol car? 22 SBI, which is State Bureau of Investigation?
23 A. Yes. 23 A. Correct.
Page 17 Page 19
1 Q. I mean, I know there's a lot more 1 A. Yes.
2 about people from other law enforcement 2 Q. And a lot of these were because
3 agencies being consolidated in, but the SBI 3 y'all were in a better position to investigate
4 today would be like the old ABI? 4 than the local PD or the local sheriff's
5 A. Yes. 5 department?
6 Q. Okay. What were your duties as 6 A. Yes. We had more resources.
7 an ABI agent? 7 Q. And also it could have been
8 A. I was assigned to major crimes. 8 because of a potential conflict that the
9 Q. Can you give us some examples? 9 sheriff's office may have with a local person
10 A. Basically, we were broke down 10 that was accused of a crime?
11 into narcotics and major crimes, so I worked -- 11 A. I don't recall an incident like
12 major crimes being robberies, murders, rapes. 12 that, but it's possible, yes.
13 Pretty much the criminal activity was not 13 Q. Okay. And how long did you serve
14 narcotic related. 14 as an ABI agent?
15 Q. Okay. Just for the benefit of 15 A. I did two stints in ABI, the
16 whoever may read this or watch this, it will be 16 first one from '97 to 2006, I believe.
17 different than at trial, but how would cases 17 Q. What happened in 2006?
18 get assigned to ABI, just from a jurisdictional 18 A. I took a position as chief
19 standpoint? 19 investigator for the Baldwin County District
20 A. Majority of them were requested 20 Attorney's office.
21 or referred from a district attorney's office 21 Q. And how long did you do that?
22 or sheriff's office or another police 22 A. Roughly a year and a half
23 department. 23 Q. And what did you do after that?
Page 18 Page 20
1 Q. Okay. Were -- I guess I'm trying 1 A. I came back to the State to DPS.
2 to get the jurisdictional difference, because 2 Q. Came back as an ABI agent?
3 we know -- like the county sheriffs have the 3 A. No, sir. Came back as patrol,
4 county, the city police have the city. Were 4 Mobile post.
5 y'all's coming in more like -- you're saying 5 Q. What was your rank at that time?
6 like somebody requested y'all to get involved, 6 A. Corporal.
7 requested ABI? 7 Q. And you would have been,
8 A. Yes, sir. That was typically how 8 basically, a patrol trooper again, as you were
9 we worked our cases. We were requested from 9 before you went to ABI?
10 another agency to come in and assist or work 10 A. Yes, sir. I was assigned to
11 the case. 11 highway patrol; but as a corporal, I functioned
12 Q. And this would not be something 12 as a supervisor as well.
13 like a robbery that y'all would immediately 13 Q. You had other functions --
14 respond to the scene? 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 A. No. I have responded to robbery 15 Q. -- is what you're saying?
16 scenes. 16 Okay. And how long did you do
17 Q. Okay. 17 that?
18 A. The one that comes to mind I 18 A. I think maybe two years before I
19 think was actually Gilbertown, small 19 transferred back to ABI.
20 department, they've got two officers. They had 20 Q. Do you recall when you
21 an armed robbery, and we were called to the 21 transferred back to ABI?
22 scene that night. 22 A. I think it was in 2010. I'm not
23 Q. Called in to assist? 23 sure.
Page 21 Page 23
1 Q. And how long, approximately, did 1 you were applying for a chief of police
2 you serve as ABI agent the second time? 2 position down in Baldwin County; is that true?
3 A. Until -- I believe it was 2014. 3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And tell us what you did after 4 Q. What police department was that?
5 2014? 5 A. That was Fairhope.
6 A. I transferred to the Protective 6 Q. Okay. Had you applied for any
7 Service Unit. 7 other jobs between 2010 and 2014?
8 Q. Tell us about how you became -- 8 A. No, sir.
9 or how you transferred into Protective 9 Q. Okay. To just help me get clear
10 Services. I mean, there's been testimony that 10 on this: Did you ask Ray Lewis for help
11 you had called Spencer, and I don't know if you 11 getting on the detail, or did he ask you to
12 agree with that or not. But is that true, that 12 come on? I'm trying to figure out how y'all's
13 you called Spencer and requested it? 13 conversation evolved into you getting the job.
14 A. I don't recall calling him to 14 A. Ray had actually asked me twice.
15 request it, no, sir. I'm sure we had talked 15 The first time he asked me about coming, my
16 about it. 16 mother was battling cancer, and I had a
17 Q. Okay. How did it come about that 17 son-in-law that was battling cancer, and I did
18 you became in the Protective Services? Did you 18 not feel it was a good time to be gone from
19 apply for it? 19 home that much.
20 A. Ray -- 20 Q. Sure.
21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 21 A. Approximately maybe a year later,
22 A. Ray Lewis talked to me about 22 things were much better, Ray again approached
23 transferring to the unit. 23 me, said, you know, would you consider coming
Page 22 Page 24
1 Q. How did you know Ray? 1 to Protective Services. At that time I was
2 A. As an ABI agent, it was common 2 able to do it, and I told him, yes, I would. I
3 for us to assist the Protective Service unit 3 guess Ray did whatever paperwork was required
4 when we had a politician or dignitaries 4 to put in for the transfer, but it was granted.
5 visiting an area, so I had worked a lot of 5 Q. So you didn't fill out any
6 details with him and got to know Ray through 6 paperwork or do anything to assist getting that
7 that. I had worked quite a few details with 7 position?
8 the Bentleys, and that's how I really got -- I 8 A. I don't recall if I filled out
9 had known Ray for a long time, we had been in 9 any paperwork or not. A lot of times --
10 the ABI together. 10 Protective Services was kind of a unique unit.
11 Q. Before 2014, had you looked into 11 I don't recall if they actually posted the
12 retiring? 12 position and people applied for it, or if it
13 A. Yes, sir, I -- I had attended one 13 was just a hand-select transfer, which was the
14 of the retirement seminars they do. 14 common practice.
15 Q. Right. 15 Q. Okay. So at the time you didn't
16 A. It was coming up on my time. 16 know what the procedure was to get on -- such
17 Q. Did you ever turn in retirement 17 as posting it or looking at any type of testing
18 papers? 18 or ranking of potential candidates for the job?
19 A. Yes, sir, I did. 19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
20 Q. Okay. Did -- Let me make sure 20 A. No.
21 I'm right on this -- Well, let me back up a 21 Q. Okay.
22 second. 22 A. Not that I'm aware.
23 At one point in time I read that 23 Q. Just to jump ahead, a second,
Page 25 Page 27
1 when -- at some point in time you became head 1 guys, agents, however you refer to them,
2 of Dignitary Protection; is that right? 2 they're not assigned to any individual
3 A. That's correct. 3 protectee; they assist all the other details.
4 Q. At that time, what was the 4 If we have visiting folks from out of state
5 procedure for bringing on people into that 5 coming in, they may handle that.
6 division? I mean, if there was an opening or a 6 Q. I think of advance detail meaning
7 need for other law enforcement officers to be 7 to -- like if the governor is going to a
8 in the what I call the DPU, how -- what was the 8 certain place, facility, plant, something like
9 procedure for that? 9 that, somebody going to check it out before he
10 A. Typically, if there were -- there 10 comes. Is that not the way it was used during
11 was someone that was familiar with a protectee, 11 DPU or is that part of what you would have done
12 they may have wanted them, then we would go to 12 too?
13 the secretary for approval for transfer. 13 A. That was done occasionally. That
14 Q. While you were head of that 14 was not the main function. For example, the
15 division, did you bring in any additional 15 governor's detail, they had their own guys that
16 officers to be on the DPU? 16 were assigned to the detail permanently, most
17 A. I think I was chief when Earl 17 of the time did their advance.
18 Woodson transferred over. I don't recall. 18 Q. Oh, okay.
19 Q. Was there any posting of that 19 A. Now, if they were shorthanded,
20 position? 20 they would call on the advance unit to provide
21 A. No, sir. 21 someone to assist.
22 Q. It was just your decision? 22 Q. I got you.
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 A. And there were occasions where
Page 26 Page 28
1 Q. Where was -- Did you say Woodson 1 the advance guys did do the advance.
2 was his name? 2 Q. That's where my confusion was of
3 A. Yes, sir. That's one I remember 3 knowing, just my experience, what advance guys
4 that I think came over while I was the chief. 4 are. But I think I got what you're saying now.
5 Q. Where was he from? 5 And how long did you do that
6 A. Huntsville. 6 detail?
7 Q. Was is there another one that 7 A. I worked, I'd say, part time on
8 came in? 8 the governor's detail while I was doing
9 A. If there was, I don't recall off 9 advance. I think I was in that position -- I'm
10 the top of my head. 10 not even sure, nine, ten months maybe before I
11 I take that back. I think I 11 moved to the detail full time.
12 helped recruit Lee McWaters. 12 Q. When you were on the advance
13 Q. Where was Lee from? 13 detail, where did you live? Still in Baldwin
14 A. He was the post sergeant I think 14 County?
15 at Alex City. 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Your first assignment when you 16 Q. Did you come to Montgomery or did
17 went on the Protective Detail was what, please, 17 you work just down in the south Alabama area?
18 sir? 18 A. No. We worked throughout the
19 A. I was assigned to the advanced 19 state, depending on where we were needed. I
20 unit. 20 did spend a lot of time in Montgomery.
21 Q. Explain, for the benefit of the 21 Q. Were you furnished a vehicle?
22 court, what the advance unit is? 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 A. The advance unit is a group of 23 Q. A gas card?
Page 29 Page 31
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 Q. What were your general
2 Q. Okay. When you -- Say your off 2 responsibilities at that time?
3 day was completed and you were going to come to 3 A. Depending on where he was
4 Montgomery, you would drive the State vehicle? 4 traveling. Same thing, you know, especially if
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 he came down to south Alabama, I would
6 Q. And a state gas card? 6 typically meet them at the airport when they
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 flew in, drive them to where we were going. It
8 Q. When you came to Montgomery to 8 may be picking him up that morning at the
9 work, did you receive per diem? 9 mansion and bringing him to the Capitol and
10 A. No, sir. 10 being stationed in the Capitol with him that
11 Q. Where did you stay when you were 11 day.
12 in Montgomery? 12 Q. Did that position for you, or
13 A. At the apartment at the 13 your job anyway, change any from the Advance
14 governor's mansion. 14 Team and part time with the detail, to any
15 Q. Were you the only member from out 15 other responsibilities, before you were
16 of town who stayed there or did everybody stay 16 appointed the head of it?
17 there? 17 I may not be making sense, but
18 A. No, sir. Everybody. I wouldn't 18 right now we're talking about how you were on
19 say everybody, a lot of them. 19 the Advance Team and part time with the
20 Q. Right. 20 governor.
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 A. Correct.
22 Q. I'm sure it's different nights. 22 Q. Did that change?
23 Some nights you'd be at home, some nights 23 A. I'm not sure I understand that
Page 30 Page 32
1 somebody else may be in Huntsville, but that is 1 question.
2 where the DPU guys, generally stayed? 2 Q. Okay. Did you ever become, like,
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 full time on the governor's detail --
4 Q. Were y'all fed there? 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 A. Sir? 5 Q. -- as opposed to being on the
6 Q. Fed there? 6 Advance Team?
7 A. No, sir. We ate out. 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. You mentioned that you were part 8 Q. Okay. When did that occur?
9 time on the governor's detail. Just explain to 9 A. I don't recall the exact date. I
10 us that a little bit more. What you'd do when 10 think somewhere in 2014, but I'm not sure the
11 you were -- I don't know if it was an 11 exact date.
12 assignment or whether it was filling in or how 12 Q. And then when you were on that
13 that worked, that's what I'm trying to get you 13 detail, did the responsibility change? I mean,
14 to explain to us. 14 I know you were out of advance -- Well, I don't
15 A. When I said part time, I would 15 know that. Let me make sure I'm right on this.
16 work one or two days a week, maybe, with the 16 Part of your job duties on the
17 detail. 17 Advance Team was to provide protection to other
18 Q. Okay. Would that have been 18 dignitaries?
19 filling in when other guys were off or was 19 A. Correct.
20 that, like, a routine assignment? 20 Q. So if a governor from another
21 A. It was pretty much routine. I 21 state came in, or some other dignitary needed
22 think I would use an order for the guys to 22 protection, you may have been assigned to
23 rotate to have some off days. 23 something like that?
Page 33 Page 35
1 A. That's correct. 1 know one time, when Chris Hines, the agent
2 Q. Okay. And then you went off the 2 assigned to her, they were at the mall, he had
3 advance detail to just be on the governor's 3 some kind of family medical emergency, so I
4 detail? 4 went to the mall to relieve him so he could
5 A. Correct. 5 leave.
6 Q. And did your responsibilities 6 Q. Okay.
7 change any, as far as being with the governor? 7 A. And then occasionally when they
8 A. Yes, sir. Pretty much just 8 would come down to Gulf Shores to stay, the
9 isolated me to the governor. 9 governor and the first lady, there would be two
10 Q. That's what I was trying to 10 agents down there, they may want to go to the
11 figure out. It took you out of advance 11 outlet mall to shop, they would split up and
12 responsibilities to full time with the 12 shop in different places, and at times I was
13 governor? 13 with her.
14 A. Correct. 14 Q. Okay. It's -- Help me out here.
15 Q. Okay. And who would you be 15 Is DPU an appropriate name for that division?
16 responsible for when you were in that position? 16 A. Yes, sir. It's been called
17 Was it just the governor, was it the governor's 17 Dignitary Protection Unit, it's been called
18 family, was it ever anybody else? 18 Protective Services. Yes, sir, that's
19 A. I guess the governor and it would 19 appropriate.
20 extend to his family, the first lady and even 20 Q. I can't remember what the statute
21 occasionally his children. 21 said, but when I say DPU, you know what I'm
22 Q. When we talk about the first 22 talking about?
23 lady, would there be times that you would be 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 34 Page 36
1 providing security for her, separate and apart 1 Q. As I understand it, at some point
2 from the governor? 2 in time, I don't know the exact job title, but
3 A. It did happen on a couple of 3 you became head of DPU?
4 occasions, if I recall. 4 A. The chief of the unit.
5 Q. Okay. Would most of them have 5 Q. Yes.
6 been when she was with the governor? 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 A. Majority of time involving me was 7 Q. And that's what it's called,
8 when she was with the governor. 8 chief of the unit?
9 Q. It was not just Mrs. Bentley, but 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 the first lady of the State of Alabama provided 10 Q. And that would have been after
11 with security? 11 Ray Lewis left?
12 A. Yes, sir. She had an agent 12 A. Yes, sir, it was after Ray
13 assigned to her. 13 retired.
14 Q. And if she was in Tuscaloosa, an 14 Q. And then after Ray left, though,
15 agent would be with her? 15 you weren't the first chief after Ray, I think
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 Jack Clark may have served?
17 Q. Did you ever go to Tuscaloosa 17 A. That's correct.
18 with just Mrs. Bentley? 18 Q. Did anybody else serve in that
19 A. No, sir, not that I recall. 19 position?
20 Q. Okay. Would there have been some 20 A. No, sir.
21 times that you were providing security just for 21 Q. Okay. So it was Ray to Jack to
22 Mrs. Bentley? 22 you?
23 A. The only times that I recall -- I 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 37 Page 39
1 Q. When you were in -- I'm going 1 were; plain-clothes investigators for integrity
2 back in time now. But when you were in ABI, 2 unit were allowed; I think some of the higher
3 did you have a clothing allowance? 3 ranking uniform positions were allowed. I
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 don't know if they were allowed the full
5 Q. How much was your clothing 5 clothing allowance or not, but I do know they
6 allowance? 6 were allowed some clothing allowance.
7 A. Eight fifty. 7 Q. And I think I asked you this, but
8 Q. That would have been as far back 8 just to make sure, while you were on DPU, were
9 as when you first went on? 9 you given the clothing allowance?
10 A. Yes, sir. As far as I can 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 recall, it's always been eight fifty. 11 Q. And in addition to that, while
12 Q. And that was eight fifty a year? 12 you were on the DPU, were you furnished any
13 A. There were some years we weren't 13 other type of, like, clothing, jackets, vests,
14 allowed clothing allowance depending on budget. 14 anything like that?
15 Q. Okay. But my point is, it wasn't 15 A. No, sir. Not that I recall.
16 one time eight fifty to buy your clothes to 16 Q. When you were in ABI, were you
17 last for your entire career? 17 furnished any type of jackets or heavy jackets
18 A. That's correct. 18 or boots or anything?
19 Q. And it was to be able to buy 19 A. Jacket-wise, I know we were
20 newer clothes the following years and -- as 20 supplied just a very thin -- a blue wind
21 long as you were working in ABI; right? 21 breaker, that had big gold letters that
22 A. Yes, sir. It reoccurred. 22 identified ABI. I do believe we received like
23 Q. And part of the reason was when 23 some BDU-type pants, class B we referred to
Page 38 Page 40
1 you would testify in court, the idea was you 1 those.
2 were to dress professionally? 2 Q. Okay. That didn't come out of
3 A. Correct. 3 your eight hundred fifty dollars, did it?
4 Q. Suits, ties? 4 A. No, sir, those didn't.
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Okay. And make sure we're on the
6 Q. When you were on the Dignitary 6 same wavelength here: Do you know whether like
7 Protection Unit, were you provided a clothing 7 ABI agents that were up around Huntsville,
8 allowance? 8 where the weather can get quite colder than
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 Baldwin County, were furnished heavy jackets?
10 Q. How much was that? 10 A. I don't know.
11 A. Eight fifty. 11 Q. Okay. When you were on DPU, at
12 Q. And, again, subject to budgetary 12 one time, as I understand it, they were
13 problems, that was every year? 13 furnished some, like, vests that you would
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 wear; I call them vest, it looked more like a
15 Q. All right. And did you use that 15 fishing type vest, khaki thing to conceal your
16 allowance to buy clothes? 16 weapon when you were dressing more casual with
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 the governor?
18 Q. Every year? 18 A. A 511 vest.
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Yeah.
20 Q. Do you know what other divisions 20 A. Yes, sir. I purchased one with
21 of what would have been Public Safety at the 21 clothing allowance.
22 time were provided with the clothing allowance? 22 Q. You purchased your own?
23 A. Of course I know that ABI/SBI 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 41 Page 43
1 Q. It wasn't furnished to you? 1 purposes?
2 A. No, sir. 2 A. I don't know of any in
3 Q. What about the other people in 3 particular, no, sir.
4 DPU? 4 Q. Okay. Now, when you were on DPU,
5 A. I don't know. Not that I know 5 did you ever see any information or hear
6 of. 6 anything that led you to believe that Robert
7 Q. As far as at least with ALEA and 7 Bentley and Rebekah Mason had a relationship,
8 the DPU unit, when you're providing protection 8 other than just employer/employee?
9 to the governor, as I understand it, the 9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
10 protocol was to dress equal to or in a greater 10 A. Can you clarify that just a
11 fashion than the governor; in other words, if 11 little bit?
12 the governor is in a suit, you weren't supposed 12 Q. Yes, sir.
13 to come in in, like, a polo shirt? 13 MR. SEGALL: Kenny, do you mind
14 A. Correct. 14 speaking slightly louder?
15 Q. Okay. And if the governor was 15 MR. MENDELSOHN: You can't hear?
16 dressing down in like a polo shirt or just a 16 MR. SEGALL: I'm having a little
17 button-down shirt, then you could dress similar 17 trouble.
18 to the governor? 18 MR. MENDELSOHN: My bad. I'll
19 A. That's correct. 19 talk -- I can talk louder.
20 Q. And when I meant greater, it's 20 THE WITNESS: Can you hear me?
21 like if he's in a polo shirt, you can be in a 21 MR. SEGALL: Yeah, I can hear
22 polo or you can be in a suit? 22 you.
23 A. Correct. 23 Q. Let me jump ahead and ask this.
Page 42 Page 44
1 Q. But if he's in a suit, you're not 1 A. Okay.
2 supposed to be dressing casual? 2 Q. You were at Robert Bentley's
3 A. Correct. 3 deposition?
4 Q. And as far as the casual clothes 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 you would wear, were those things you bought 5 Q. He testified there, if I got the
6 out of your eight hundred and fifty dollars a 6 terms right, that I had an affectionate
7 month (sic)? 7 friendship with Rebekah Mason, I think is how
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 he discussed -- described it. You heard that?
9 Q. Did you have any shirts -- 9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
10 polo-type shirts or sleeve-type shirts, that 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 had ALEA identified on it? 11 Q. And you heard him talk about how
12 A. Yes, sir, I think I had two. 12 they would embrace, kiss, hold hands, you heard
13 Q. Okay. And you paid for those? 13 that?
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
15 Q. Were you ever at any time, either 15 A. Yes, sir, I heard that.
16 in ABI, SBI or DPU, furnished any type of 16 Q. I'll ask you what I asked him
17 clothing or equipment for the purpose of 17 too: Do you think that is an appropriate
18 testing and evaluation? 18 relationship for two married people?
19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
20 A. No, sir, not that I recall. 20 MR. SEGALL: Object to the form.
21 Q. Did you know that there were some 21 A. No, sir.
22 officers, from time to time, who were provided 22 Q. Okay. And certainly you would --
23 such type of clothing or equipment for testing 23 Does your wife work?
Page 45 Page 47
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 A. No, sir.
2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 2 Q. Did you know that it was
3 Q. You wouldn't like it if your wife 3 nicknamed the love bench?
4 had a similar relationship with her boss, as 4 A. No, sir.
5 Rebekah has with Robert Bentley? 5 Q. That was something you found out
6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 6 later?
7 MR. SEGALL: Object to the form. 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Were there times that you would
9 Q. Okay. And you wouldn't expect 9 drive -- Well, let me ask you this. When you
10 her to like for you to have the same 10 were just on the protective detail before you
11 relationship with any other woman, would you? 11 were the chief of it, would you, at times, be
12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 12 either driving or riding in a car with Governor
13 MR. SEGALL: Object to the form. 13 Bentley --
14 A. No, sir. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 MR. SEGALL: Can we say an 15 Q. -- as part of your detail; right?
16 objection to the form does for everybody? 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 MR. MENDELSOHN: Oh, sure. 17 Q. I've often heard the term body
18 (Off-the-Record discussion 18 man, is that something that's commonly used?
19 was held.) 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Now, let me ask it a different 20 Q. What is the body man?
21 way then. Was there ever a point in time, 21 A. Typically, say if the governor
22 while you were on DPU, that you believed that 22 was going somewhere, there would be two guys
23 Robert Bentley and Rebekah Mason had a 23 with him. One guy would drive the vehicle, and
Page 46 Page 48
1 relationship other than just employer/employee? 1 what we would refer to as the body man is
2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 2 typically the guy that sits behind the
3 A. I never personally witnessed 3 governor, gets out of the same side of the
4 anything, the embracing, holding hands, 4 vehicle with the governor. He pretty much
5 anything like that. I was like everyone else, 5 stays with -- right behind the governor as the
6 I had heard the talk. 6 other agent may lead them to wherever they're
7 Q. Okay. And do you recall 7 going.
8 specifically who you heard it from? 8 Q. Okay. Were you -- Well, is that
9 A. No, sir. I think it was general 9 a specific job description, where somebody is
10 talk among staff within the office. 10 assigned to be the body man, or is that just
11 Q. Okay. Were you made aware at any 11 something that comes up on a day-by-day,
12 time about Robert Bentley and Rebekah, and a 12 trip-by-trip basis?
13 bench that was in some type of little courtyard 13 A. It varies depending on the trip.
14 area up there near the Capitol, and they'd go 14 Q. Okay. And I guess what I'm
15 out there in the afternoons? 15 trying to figure out is, is there one person in
16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 16 the DPU that's considered the body man or is
17 A. I only learned of that after 17 that something on each particular trip that's
18 reading and hearing about Mrs. Adams', I guess, 18 kind of decided who will drive and who is in
19 interview with one of the groups. 19 the back?
20 Q. But during the time, you did not 20 A. It's on -- It depends on the
21 know that -- 21 event. There may be, you know, one person that
22 A. No, sir. 22 may take that position more than others, but it
23 Q. -- that they would go out there? 23 depended.
Page 49 Page 51
1 Q. And who makes that decision? 1 between Robert Bentley and Rebekah Mason?
2 A. It would depend on the event or 2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
3 the detail leader. 3 A. I had my suspicions that there
4 Q. Would the governor have input in 4 was more than just a working relationship, but
5 who he wanted to be the body man? 5 I did not know to what extent.
6 A. I don't recall him ever 6 Q. Sure. What made you suspicious?
7 particularly saying who he wanted to be the 7 A. Again, the talk that we hear; Ray
8 body man. 8 Lewis, comments he had made to me, that was the
9 Q. Even when Ray Lewis was chief? 9 main thing.
10 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 10 Q. What kind of comments did Ray
11 To the extent you know. 11 make to you?
12 Q. If you don't know, that's fine. 12 A. Just that he would -- He would
13 A. I don't know. 13 make comments about Rebekah and the governor
14 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say 14 having a relationship; he would ask me about
15 sometimes you'd be the body man? 15 interactions between the two if I was on duty
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 that day.
17 Q. Would there be sometimes you'd be 17 Q. Okay. And did you ever convey to
18 the driver? 18 Ray that you -- that there were certain things
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 that went on, while you were on duty, between
20 Q. And just so I can understand, and 20 the governor and Rebekah that you thought was
21 I'm not trying to be overly repetitive, I'm 21 inappropriate?
22 just trying to get it in my head: Suppose 22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
23 there's a trip where the governor is going to 23 A. I don't recall any specific
Page 50 Page 52
1 Greenville for some event, and you're assigned 1 incident that we discussed.
2 too, who would make the decision who was 2 Q. Were there times that you were
3 driving and who would be the body man? 3 either driving the governor or serving as a
4 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 4 body man that Rebekah Mason went along with
5 A. A lot of time our work schedule 5 y'all?
6 dictated what position you would have. And the 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 work schedule was typically made out by the 7 Q. In the same vehicle?
8 detail leader. 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay. So you would have the 9 Q. And is that standard protocol?
10 assignment that on this day you would be 10 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
11 driver, another day you may be the body man, 11 A. Depending on how many people we
12 other days you wouldn't be going at all, 12 had traveling that day. There have been times
13 obviously? 13 that she rode in the vehicle with us, there
14 A. Correct. 14 have been times that she met us at a location.
15 Q. Would that be a fair way to 15 Q. Would there ever any times that
16 explain it to me? 16 you or anyone else in DPU who drove her when
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 she was alone, just a DPU guy and Rebekah
18 Q. At any time -- Let me back up and 18 Mason?
19 say this: I've asked some questions about 19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
20 being on DPU or being the chief of DPU. For 20 A. I know I haven't. And I don't
21 this question right now, at any time on -- 21 have knowledge of anyone else.
22 while you were on DPU, did you ever believe 22 Q. Never reported to you that there
23 that there was an inappropriate relationship 23 were times that people did that?
Page 53 Page 55
1 A. No, sir. 1 Coca-Cola Bottling Company, I was with the
2 Q. Were there ever any times that 2 governor. Mrs. Bentley texted me and wanted to
3 you were involved with that you drove Governor 3 know could I talk. And I texted her back and
4 Bentley to the hangar at the airport to meet 4 said if you'll give me a few minutes, we're
5 Rebekah Mason, when they weren't flying 5 just getting to a new location. When he's in
6 anywhere? 6 his meeting I'll step out and call you. And I
7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 7 called her.
8 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Had you texted with Mrs. Bentley
9 Q. Never happened with you? 9 any time before that point?
11 Q. Did you ever hear any rumors that 11 Q. What were the other texts related
12 that was going on? 12 to?
13 A. No, sir. 13 A. She may text or call, the
14 Q. Nobody in DPU ever said anything 14 governor left the house in Tuscaloosa without
15 to you about it? 15 security, or if he left -- If they were staying
16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 16 in Wynfield, he left, and she has called me
17 A. No, sir, not that I recall. 17 about that before. There have been times when
18 Q. Did you have discussions with 18 they were staying at the Gulf, she may text me,
19 Dianne Bentley about her concerns that there 19 hey, I need to run to the store, can you pick
20 was an affair going on? 20 me up, that kind of stuff.
21 A. She had expressed to me her 21 Q. But when she -- Let's take an
22 concerns, yes, sir. 22 example. When she texted you to say that the
23 Q. When and under what circumstances 23 governor had left the house without security,
Page 54 Page 56
1 was that? 1 would you have been the chief at that time?
2 A. I couldn't tell you exactly when. 2 A. No, sir. Not at all times. Some
3 It was when she was still here in Montgomery. 3 of it happened prior to me being the chief.
4 You know, I recall at the inauguration she 4 Q. Do you know -- Do you know why
5 expressed to me she didn't want Rebekah around 5 she would text you, as opposed to Ray Lewis or
6 the family during that. She would -- You could 6 some other security officer?
7 tell if the Bentleys were together and Rebekah 7 A. At the time that she would really
8 happened to be at the same event or whatever, 8 text with me was when I had become the detail
9 that there was some animosity, maybe, between 9 leader.
10 the two. There was a difference, you could 10 Q. Okay. And at least one of the
11 tell. But nothing to -- you know, in depth. 11 texts related to Bentley leaving the home
12 Q. To get a little bit better time 12 without security?
13 frame, this would have been before the divorce 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 of the Bentleys? 14 Q. Would there have been a security
15 A. Correct. 15 or a DPU agent assigned to the house while he
16 Q. How did you come about talking to 16 was at home?
17 Mrs. Bentley about the inauguration? Did she 17 A. Could you -- Which house are you
18 call you, you call her, were you assigned to 18 talking about?
19 her? I appreciate what you just told me about 19 Q. Let's talk about his home. Say
20 the, but I'm trying to figure out -- 20 he went home to Tuscaloosa on the weekend --
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 A. Tuscaloosa.
22 Actually, I was in Birmingham. 22 Q. -- he may go home by helicopter?
23 We were touring, doing something with the 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 57 Page 59
1 Q. May go home by car? 1 left?
2 A. Correct. 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. But in either case, he would be 3 Q. In any of your texts or calls
4 escorted by a DPU security officer or detail; 4 with Mrs. Bentley, was -- was there -- could
5 right? 5 you tell whether it was a concern for his
6 A. Correct. 6 safety as opposed to if she was wondering where
7 Q. And he didn't -- I'm not trying 7 he may be going?
8 to be cute, but he didn't drive his personal 8 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
9 vehicle to the Capitol on Monday or to the 9 A. She may have wondered where he
10 mansion and drive it home on weekends? 10 was going. I felt like when she contacted me,
11 A. Correct. 11 as the detail leader, I felt like she was
12 Q. And he would be provided security 12 letting me know, I guess for my official job
13 while he was at home with Mrs. Bentley? 13 capacity, that I needed to know the governor's
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 whereabouts, he was not with security.
15 Q. There was supposed to be an 15 Q. And there was at least -- Well,
16 agent -- at least one agent assigned to the 16 there was one occasion that received quite a
17 house, wasn't there? 17 bit of publicity that he had got mad and left
18 A. No, sir. We don't always have 18 and got in his truck and started driving away,
19 agents assigned to the house. 19 and y'all had to find him. Were you chief of
20 Q. Nearby though? 20 DPU when that happened?
21 A. Yes, sir. We had a couple of 21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
22 agents that lived in the Tuscaloosa area. And 22 Q. The one I'm talking about is the
23 there were times we would actually send -- 23 one that got the publicity about how his wallet
Page 58 Page 60
1 especially at night, not so much during the 1 was flown down to the Gulf?
2 day, but at night we would send a uniformed 2 A. No, sir, I was --
3 capital trooper over there that basically sat 3 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
4 in the car during the night shift at the house. 4 A. -- not in charge.
5 Q. Right. And that's what I meant. 5 Q. Okay. You were on the DPU -- You
6 Security for a governor is a twenty-four/seven 6 were a DPU officer or agent at the time though?
7 type responsibility? 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Were you notified about that?
9 Q. It's not just because he's home 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 in Tuscaloosa to say, oh, we're just going to 10 Q. Is that one of the ones that Mrs.
11 drop him off, somebody's going to pick him up 11 Bentley texted you?
12 Monday morning? 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 A. Correct. 13 Q. Okay. And I'm assuming you
14 Q. There's some type of security 14 notified your chain of command that the
15 person supposed to be with him at all times? 15 governor had left?
16 A. Or at least on call, yes, sir. 16 A. Yes, sir, I did.
17 Q. Right. And then Mrs. Bentley 17 Q. And once that was determined,
18 would text and say that he had left without 18 what did y'all do after that? I mean, did
19 notifying the security folks? 19 y'all go to try to find him, did y'all notify
20 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 20 other law enforcement agencies, did you notify
21 Q. That did happen. 21 your uniformed troopers? What happened?
22 A. Yes, sir, it did happen. 22 A. I called the governor.
23 Q. And he got in his own truck and 23 Q. On his phone?
Page 61 Page 63
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 sense.
2 Q. And was that because Mrs. Bentley 2 Q. Okay. And that would have been
3 had called you? 3 left up to Ray?
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 A. Yes, sir. At that time Ray was
5 Q. And so you called him? 5 the chief, yes, sir.
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Were there other occasions where
7 Q. And tell me about your 7 the governor left, not just his home in
8 conversation with him. 8 Tuscaloosa -- Well, I think you mentioned
9 A. I just called him and actually I 9 Wynfield, that there was a time he left
10 think he answered the phone, said, Stan, I'm 10 Wynfield without security?
11 fine. I said: Yes, sir, Mrs. Bentley called 11 A. Yes, sir. I recall one incident.
12 and said you had left. She thought you were 12 Q. Okay. And Wynfield is the Blount
13 headed to the beach house. He said, yes, I'm 13 house on Vaughn Road?
14 headed to the beach house. I said, yes, sir. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 I said, well, I'm in Baldwin County. Let me 15 Q. Tell me about that incident,
16 know when you get down here. If you need 16 where he left Wynfield.
17 anything between now and then, make me aware of 17 A. I don't recall the date. A lot
18 it. And I notified Ray Lewis. 18 of times the Bentleys would stay out there on
19 Q. And then do you know what Ray 19 the weekend. I think they had more freedom out
20 Lewis did upon obtaining that information that 20 there to get out and walk around, fish, that
21 the governor was driving himself to the beach? 21 sort of stuff.
22 A. No, sir, I do not know what Ray 22 Mrs. Bentley, I think she had
23 did. 23 called me that night -- I say night, I think
Page 62 Page 64
1 Q. Do you know if that -- any other 1 early evening, six or seven o'clock, something
2 uniform -- any other law enforcement officers, 2 like that, and informed me that the governor
3 whether city, county, or state troopers, tried 3 had left Wynfield without security.
4 to locate Governor Bentley? 4 Q. Would that have been in a
5 A. No, sir, I have no knowledge. 5 personal vehicle?
6 Q. You don't know if anybody hooked 6 A. Yes, sir. I assume. I'm not
7 up in either -- got up with him, or tailed him, 7 sure what he was -- what he was in.
8 or did anything to provide him security for the 8 Q. Wouldn't it be -- Where would --
9 trip down? 9 No, let me ask you this. During that time
10 A. No, sir. 10 frame did, Governor Bentley have a personal
11 MS. MAYS: Your "no, sir" means 11 vehicle with him in Montgomery?
12 you don't know. 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 A. I don't know if anyone did. 13 Q. What vehicle and where was it
14 Q. Do you know -- I hate to say 14 located?
15 standard protocol because, in my view at least, 15 A. He had a -- I think it's a Z71
16 it's not standard for the governor to leave 16 truck, pickup truck. He had bought it new, I
17 their security detail. But was there any 17 think, around -- I'm not even sure, '14 or '15,
18 standard type protocol, what you do in a 18 maybe. Then there was a white Ford Explorer
19 situation like that, where the governor is by 19 that was issued to Mrs. Bentley.
20 himself, driving to the -- to the beach from 20 Q. When Mrs. Bentley came from
21 Tuscaloosa, as far as trying to locate him or 21 Tuscaloosa to Montgomery, would she drive her
22 trying to protect him? 22 own vehicle?
23 A. You would just have to use common 23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
Page 65 Page 67
1 A. There may be a time she did, I'm 1 Q. Okay. Because I don't recall
2 not sure. Often the guy that was assigned to 2 ever seeing like a tower there or anything,
3 her transported her. 3 like you have at the mansion, where there's a
4 Q. And when Governor Bentley -- Do I 4 little brick building that often a uniformed
5 understand you to say that Governor Bentley 5 guy will stay in at the gate?
6 would drive his truck around Montgomery? 6 A. That's correct.
7 A. At times he did, yes, sir. 7 Q. At Wynfield, they didn't have
8 Q. Without security? 8 that?
9 A. Security would follow him. 9 A. No, sir, they did not.
10 Q. Did you ever follow him in a 10 Q. Did you talk to the security
11 situation like that? 11 folks that were at Wynfield at the time?
12 A. No, sir. I don't recall that I 12 A. No, sir, I don't believe that
13 ever did. 13 night I talked to them.
14 Q. Do you know where he was going on 14 Q. Do you know how Bentley left
15 those occasions or why he wouldn't be riding 15 without security knowing about it?
16 with security? 16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
17 A. I mean, not every time, no, sir. 17 A. I don't know -- I don't know that
18 I do know like, for example, the Bentleys may 18 security did or didn't know about it. The
19 take his truck out to Wynfield, and security 19 uniform trooper assigned there could have seen
20 would follow them, often because they were 20 him drive off.
21 picking watermelons, they had a garden out 21 Q. Well, if he had, his
22 there. 22 responsibility would have been reporting that
23 Q. And there was at least one time 23 to his superior officer, wouldn't it?
Page 66 Page 68
1 where he left Wynfield on his own without 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 security? 2 Q. And on this occasion, were you
3 A. Correct. That I know of. 3 head of DPU?
4 Q. There would have been security 4 A. I don't think so.
5 there? 5 Q. Okay.
6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 6 A. I think it was prior to that.
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. Well, on that occasion,
8 Q. And how -- When Robert Bentley 8 you don't recall anybody reporting up to you
9 was at Wynfield, how many security officers 9 here, now?
10 would be there and where would they be 10 A. Correct.
11 stationed? 11 Q. Were there other occasions where
12 A. Depending on who was assigned to 12 Bentley would leave without security?
13 him, as far as the plain-clothes agent, if it 13 A. I think that's the only ones I
14 was someone from out of town, there was an 14 recall.
15 apartment in Wynfield as well that the agent 15 Q. Did you -- Were you aware of or
16 could stay in the apartment. And then we had 16 have you ever heard of instances, or at least
17 uniformed, capital uniformed troopers that 17 one instance, where Bentley and Mason slipped
18 would be at Wynfield if the Bentleys were 18 out, for lack of a better term, and went to
19 staying. 19 lunch together without security detail?
20 Q. Would there be anybody at the 20 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
21 entrance? 21 A. No, sir. I have no knowledge of
22 A. Not stationed permanently, no, 22 that ever happening.
23 sir. 23 Q. Never heard about that?
Page 69 Page 71
1 A. No, sir. 1 A. No, sir. I've never been told
2 Q. And the only two cases that 2 that.
3 you're aware of where Bentley left on his own 3 Q. Have you read about it or heard
4 without security was the time he left 4 about it since then?
5 Tuscaloosa to go to the beach, and the time at 5 A. No, sir.
6 Wynfield that you just told me about? 6 Q. And weren't aware that Justin
7 A. That's correct. 7 reported up the chain of command and didn't
8 Q. Were you made aware of any times 8 actually leave, but was instructed to go down
9 that Bentley and Mason were at Wynfield 9 to the gate and stay there, you didn't -- you
10 together that Mrs. Bentley was not? 10 didn't know about that?
11 A. I only personally know of one 11 A. No, sir, I've never heard about
12 occasion. 12 that.
13 Q. Okay. Tell me about that 13 Q. Did you ever have any discussions
14 occasion. 14 with Robert Bentley about Rebekah Mason?
15 A. I believe it was he was preparing 15 A. No, sir.
16 for a speech. I don't recall if it was state 16 Q. And I'm talking about anything
17 of the state or might have been inaugurational 17 about her. I'm not talking about him admitting
18 speech. But I think they had gone out there to 18 his love to her or anything like that. I'm
19 work on a speech, the governor, Rebekah, if I 19 just saying, when y'all were riding, was there
20 recall correctly Justin Williams and Darren 20 ever anything that came up about him talking
21 Blake. 21 about Rebekah?
22 Q. And Justin Williams and Darren 22 A. There could have been discussions
23 Blake are ALEA agents? 23 where he may have asked me who was meeting us,
Page 70 Page 72
1 A. Yes, sir. Security guys assigned 1 or if Rebekah was meeting us, or, you know, if
2 to the governor's detail. 2 she was going to travel with us or meet us on
3 Q. Okay. And how did you -- Was 3 scene, there may be some work-related
4 that the occasion where Rebekah told Justin to 4 discussions like that. But that was all that I
5 leave? 5 had ever discussed with the governor about
6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 6 Rebekah.
7 A. I've never heard that that 7 Q. But he never expressed to you his
8 happened. 8 love for Rebekah?
9 Q. Okay. But you know of at least 9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
10 one occasion where they were out there alone, 10 A. No, sir.
11 other than with the security detail? 11 Q. Did he ever express to you where
12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 12 he was upset because people were talking about
13 A. That's the occasion I know they 13 him and Rebekah?
14 were out there with security. 14 A. Not to me, no, sir.
15 Q. Were there other times you were 15 Q. And you know that there's a lot
16 aware of where Rebekah and Bentley would go out 16 out there where other people have said, you
17 to Wynfield and eat dinner out there alone? 17 know, that Bentley would either talk about
18 A. No, sir. 18 Rebekah or be upset with folks, I'm just trying
19 Q. There's just this one occasion? 19 to find out if you ever had any conversations
20 A. That's the only one I know about. 20 like that with him?
21 Q. Were you aware of an occasion 21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
22 where Justin was providing security, and 22 A. No, sir, I don't -- I don't
23 Rebekah instructed him to leave? 23 recall any.
Page 73 Page 75
1 Q. Okay. Well, did you have any -- 1 Q. And I know there's been some
2 Well, were -- Help me out again. You went on 2 public comments by both you and Spencer about
3 DPU when? 3 you seeing it. And I've read something that
4 A. I think in 2014, in the early 4 you may have mentioned something to Ray about
5 part of 2014, if I recall. 5 the text, but it wasn't like reporting an
6 Q. So that would have been the year 6 unusual event. Am I understanding that right
7 that he was campaigning for reelection? 7 by you, you did see a text but you didn't do
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 anything with it at the time?
9 Q. So you were with the -- at least 9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
10 DPU before the 2014 election? 10 A. That's correct.
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And later you and Ray discussed
12 Q. During that time, did you ever 12 it?
13 travel with Bentley by plane, whether it be a 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 campaign function or state function? 14 Q. Okay. Do you recall what the
15 A. I don't think at that point I had 15 text said?
16 ever traveled in a plane. There were very few 16 A. If I recall correctly, it says
17 that did that, when I first came into the unit. 17 I'm glad you're -- I'm glad I'm your friend or
18 Mostly Ray, occasionally maybe Billy Irwin or 18 I'm glad you're my friend. I love you.
19 Mike Culver. 19 Q. How did you come about seeing
20 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any 20 that?
21 discussions with Bentley about the leased out 21 A. The phone was sitting in the cup
22 plane? 22 holder of my Tahoe. I actually had dropped the
23 A. No, sir. The only discussions I 23 governor, and I believe Mike Culver was the
Page 74 Page 76
1 had with him is we would check out the pilots 1 body man that day, I dropped them off at the
2 that were assigned to fly that leased aircraft 2 entrance to the Grand Hotel so I could go and
3 prior to travel. 3 park the vehicle. And as you get a text
4 Q. You would be -- On the times you 4 message, the screen will light up.
5 had been notified he was flying on a leased 5 Q. And you looked at it?
6 plane, and y'all would try to vet the pilots; 6 A. Yes, sir, I noticed it.
7 is that fair to say? 7 Q. I'm not saying anything bad about
8 A. That's correct. And typically it 8 it, but you noticed it --
9 wouldn't come from the governor, it would come 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 from Ray. 10 Q. Did it have one of those little
11 Q. There -- It's -- Let's see how to 11 -- what they call an emoji type things on it?
12 phrase this. 12 A. No, sir. I don't recall seeing
13 Was there an occasion down at 13 one then. If I recall, it was different ways
14 Point Clear where you observed a text that the 14 you can put your settings on your phone. It
15 governor received, that appeared to be from 15 will only display a certain amount of words, I
16 Rebekah Mason? 16 think it has dots. You would actually have to
17 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 17 go into the phone and open up the message to
18 A. The text that I think you're 18 see the entire message.
19 referring to, I didn't have any personal 19 Q. Was this text that you saw before
20 recollection of it being at the Grand Hotel, 20 or after Mrs. Bentley had expressed concerns
21 I'm sure it probably was, and I don't have one 21 about Rebekah Mason?
22 hundred percent clarity that it was from 22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
23 Rebekah. 23 A. Honestly, I'm not sure.
Page 77 Page 79
1 Q. Okay. 1 you were still at DPU or whether this was you
2 A. It would -- I'd have to guess to 2 being interim secretary or the permanent
3 answer you, and I don't want to do that. 3 secretary; do you recall?
4 Q. I don't want you to guess, nobody 4 A. I don't recall the exact date. I
5 does. 5 was in the secretary position; I do not know if
6 I'm just trying to put things in 6 it was still in the acting or if it was in the
7 perspective of did -- I'm trying to figure out 7 permanent position.
8 if this was one of the first things you noticed 8 Q. This would have been before
9 about Bentley, perhaps, having something more 9 Bentley resigned and before you retired; right?
10 than just a working relationship with Rebekah? 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 11 MS. MAYS: Kenny, when you get to
12 A. It didn't strike me as standing 12 a good spot, can we take a break?
13 out. 13 MR. MENDELSOHN: This is as good
14 Q. Okay. Did you see or observe him 14 as any.
15 texting with Rebekah on other occasions? 15 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 16 the Record at 11:25 a.m.
17 A. I have seen the governor texting; 17 (Recess taken.)
18 I'm not sure who he was texting. 18 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins disk
19 Q. I read something somewhere, and 19 number two in the deposition of Stan Stabler.
20 I'm not saying what I read was accurate, it 20 We're back on the Record at 12:02 p.m.
21 was, I believe, in the Impeachment Committee 21 Q. Stan, let me circle back around
22 stuff, about you making some kind of comment 22 to something and make sure I understand this
23 about his texting seemed inappropriate for 23 right. When you were on DPU and were up in
Page 78 Page 80
1 somebody his age. Did you ever say anything 1 Montgomery on detail working, you did or did
2 like that to anybody? 2 not get per diem for that?
3 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 3 A. I did not.
4 A. I think what I said, and I think 4 Q. Okay. If you were here and one
5 it was to the Impeachment Committee, that I was 5 of your assignments was to drive the governor
6 surprised that someone of his age, and I think 6 out of town, did you get per diem for those
7 mainly about my parents, usually not that 7 trips?
8 technical and savvy with texting. I was 8 A. For trips out of the county, yes,
9 surprised that a gentleman his age using the 9 sir, if we were out more than six hours.
10 emojis and stuff like that. That could be to 10 Q. And just pick a town, if y'all
11 anybody. 11 drove to Huntsville and back, and it was more
12 Q. You did meet with the Impeachment 12 than six hours, you would get per diem for
13 Committee's counsel? 13 that?
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Who was in on that? 15 Q. And if you flew out of town,
16 A. I don't recall the two gentlemen 16 you'd get per diem for that?
17 that interviewed me. They were both attorneys 17 A. Yes, sir, depending on the length
18 that worked for, I think it was Mr. Sharman. 18 of time we were gone.
19 Q. Right. Was Mr. Sharman in on it? 19 Q. Did you ever have a conversation,
20 A. No, sir. 20 or more than one conversation, with Spencer
21 Q. Okay. When you met with them, 21 about the governor and Rebekah's relationship?
22 what was your position at ALEA? I'm trying to 22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
23 figure out whether this would have been while 23 A. I don't -- I don't particularly
Page 81 Page 83
1 recall any conversation that we had. I'm not 1 Q. And he was on the security detail
2 saying we didn't, I don't recall of any. 2 during the time you were?
3 Q. You don't recall going into his 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 office and discussing it with him, about 4 Q. And you don't recall him ever
5 problems that were being created as a result? 5 expressing any concerns about Rebekah and the
6 A. I know we discussed -- I think we 6 relationship with Bentley?
7 discussed some of the problems like him leaving 7 A. No, sir.
8 and that kind of stuff, but I couldn't recall 8 Q. Do you recall a situation where
9 the entire conversation. 9 you went with Governor Bentley and -- let me
10 Q. You don't deny that there were 10 see if I can tell where it was, but he was
11 conversations, you just don't recall them; is 11 speaking somewhere, and Linda Adams got
12 that correct? 12 concerned because the person who was speaking
13 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 13 before him, in the background was a woman who
14 A. That's correct. 14 was crossing her legs back and forth, and she
15 Q. When you were the chief of DPU, 15 was worried that either that was Rebekah or
16 did any of the other members of the detail ever 16 that that would look bad for the governor when
17 report to you their concerns about Rebekah 17 he spoke?
18 Mason? 18 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 19 A. You mention that, I vaguely
20 A. No, sir, not that I recall. 20 remember, if I'm correct, I think we were
21 Q. None of them ever mentioned to 21 actually in Washington D.C., and he was
22 you about her trying to rearrange who was 22 testifying before one of the committees up
23 sitting in what vehicle? 23 there. And there was a female sitting behind
Page 82 Page 84
1 A. No, sir. 1 him in the audience or galley. I don't recall
2 Q. None of them complained about 2 it was Rebekah.
3 Governor Bentley insisting that she be on the 3 Q. Right. And I may be wrong, but
4 plane flight? 4 the way I saw it, there was another speaker.
5 A. No, sir. I knew that she 5 and in watching it, either over TV or Internet,
6 traveled with him. 6 that people on the governor's staff saw some
7 Q. But never any issues about 7 woman that was just moving her legs back and
8 security or protection because of Rebekah's 8 forth, and Linda didn't think it was
9 desires of wanting to be with the governor or 9 appropriate for Governor Bentley to have her
10 be on the plane, you never heard any of that? 10 behind him. Do you remember Linda texting you
11 A. No. 11 about it?
13 Q. And even before you became chief, 13 A. No, sir, I don't recall her
14 none of the other members of the security 14 texting. What I do recall about it, it was --
15 detail, in talking with you, ever expressed any 15 I have no idea who the woman was. I don't
16 issues about Rebekah and that? 16 think she was affiliated with the state of
17 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 17 Alabama at all, or definitely not the
18 A. Ray Lewis would be the one. 18 governor's office.
19 Q. Okay. What about Frank Sazera? 19 Q. Right.
20 A. I don't recall of Frank and I 20 A. If I remember correctly, I think
21 ever discussing Rebekah. 21 the TV camera view would go from the governor
22 Q. You do know Frank? 22 to another speaker, they would go back and
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 forth. And I think the concern was -- I think
Page 85 Page 87
1 it was live, there would be an accidental 1 Rebekah Mason?
2 wardrobe malfunction. 2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
3 Q. Yeah. And I -- The way I read 3 A. I don't recall ever having
4 it, I didn't see anything clandestine or wrong 4 conversations with Heather about Rebekah, no.
5 with it, other than Linda being concerned about 5 Q. You're not saying it didn't
6 how it looked for Bentley. 6 happen, you're just saying you don't remember?
7 A. Uh-huh. 7 A. I don't recall any, no, sir.
8 Q. And according to what I read, the 8 Q. Have you read any of Heather's
9 transcript that Linda provided to -- I believe 9 sworn testimony either to the Ethics Commission
10 it's the Impeachment Committee, where she 10 or to the impeachment counsel?
11 mentioned that she had texted you, or texted 11 A. I have read some, yes, sir.
12 security. 12 Q. Do you see the parts where she's
13 A. She may have. I don't recall it. 13 talking about speaking with you about the
14 Q. Okay. Do you recall Rebekah and 14 affair or that you would sometimes contact
15 the governor talking about Linda's text on the 15 Heather to let her know what Bentley and Ms.
16 way back? 16 Mason were doing?
18 A. No, sir, I do not recall it. 18 A. Yes, sir, I read that.
19 Q. Do you recall talking to Mrs. 19 Q. And do you disagree with what she
20 Bentley shortly after that, because she was 20 said?
21 worried about the governor wanting to fire 21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
22 Linda Adams? 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 A. No, sir. 23 Q. And would it be your position
Page 86 Page 88
1 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 1 that her testimony was false --
2 Exhibit 16 was marked for 2 MAYS MS.: Object to the form.
3 identification purposes.) 3 Q. -- as it relates to you?
4 Q. Let me do it this way. I'm going 4 A. There were several things in
5 to show you what I've marked as Exhibit 16. 5 there that I read that I disagreed with.
6 And this appears to be an email from Dianne 6 Q. Specifically on one -- This is
7 Bentley to Linda Adams dated July 15, 2015. If 7 page 161 of the -- It says: Multiple
8 you would take a minute and read that for me, 8 investigations into the office of governor,
9 please. 9 which I believe was the Ethics Commission,
10 A. (Witness complies.) 10 where she says there's one instance, and Mrs.
11 Q. Have you had a chance to read it? 11 Bentley, I believe, still has the text message
12 A. Yes, sir, I read it. 12 from Stan Stabler, but in the text, Mrs.
13 Q. And you see in there Mrs. Bentley 13 Bentley is notifying her that the governor and
14 is saying: Well, as you know, Stan confirmed. 14 Rebekah had requested to be left alone at
15 Does this refresh your memory 15 Wynfield Estate or Blount mansion.
16 about what this email was about or about 16 And my question to you is: Did
17 Bentley being mad at Linda or how this all came 17 you ever text Mrs. Bentley that the governor
18 about? 18 and Rebekah Mason wanted to be left alone at
19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 19 Wynfield?
20 A. No, sir. I don't recall what 20 A. No, sir.
21 this email is in reference to. 21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
22 Q. Did you ever have any 22 A. No, sir. I don't recall that
23 conversations with Heather Hammond about 23 ever happening.
Page 89 Page 91
1 Q. If Mrs. Bentley testified to 1 contacted her or Mrs. Bentley was contacting
2 that, you would disagree with her testimony? 2 you where y'all discussed anything about
3 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 3 Governor Bentley and Rebekah Mason --
4 A. I don't recall it happening, no, 4 MS. MAYS: Object to the --
5 sir. 5 Q. -- being together?
6 Q. That's fine. You're not denying 6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
7 that it happened, are you? 7 A. No, sir. I don't remember nor
8 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 8 think that ever happened.
9 Q. I hear you say I don't recall 9 Q. Okay. When did you find out that
10 it -- 10 there were tapes between Robert Bentley and
11 A. I don't believe it happened, no, 11 Rebekah Mason?
12 sir. 12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
13 Q. So you're denying that you ever 13 A. I think the first I'd ever heard
14 texted Mrs. Bentley about Mr. Bentley and 14 about the recordings were after Spencer and Ray
15 Rebekah wanting to be alone at Wynfield? 15 had gone to Mrs. Adams' home in Greenville.
16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 16 Q. The night of the -- I guess it
17 Asked and answered. 17 was the election night?
18 MR. MENDELSOHN: I don't think it 18 A. That's the night they went to
19 has been. 19 Greenville.
20 A. I don't recall ever texting Mrs. 20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 Bentley, no, sir. 21 A. I don't recall what day of the
22 Q. You don't recall it? 22 week it was. If it was during the week, it
23 A. That's correct. 23 probably would have been the following day
Page 90 Page 92
1 Q. Let me ask you a different way: 1 before I found out. Because Mrs. Adams
2 Did you ever text Mrs. Bentley to notify her 2 mentioned it in her office at work.
3 about what Mrs. Mason was doing? 3 Q. Okay. Were you at the -- I call
4 A. Not that I remember, sir. 4 it campaign party or election results party,
5 Q. You're not saying it didn't 5 for Governor Bentley in November of 2014?
6 happen, you just don't remember it happening? 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 7 Q. And was that -- Was that the
8 Asked and answered. 8 Wynfrey Hotel, or do you recall where it was?
9 A. I don't remember that ever 9 A. I was thinking it was at the
10 happening. 10 Renaissance.
11 Q. Did you ever have any 11 Q. The Renaissance here in
12 conversations with Mrs. Bentley about something 12 Montgomery?
13 -- anything to do with the fact that Ms. Mason 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 and Robert Bentley were -- anything about where 14 Q. That's right.
15 they were going, what they were doing? 15 A. If I recall correctly, that's
16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 16 where it was.
17 A. I know that we had conversations; 17 Q. And were you on duty during that?
18 I couldn't tell you word for word. But the 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 fact, she may have traveled with us that day or 19 Q. Do you recall there being
20 been with us that day or was in the office that 20 instances -- or during the course of that,
21 day. 21 Spencer needing to talk to the governor, did
22 Q. But none where she was away from 22 any of that go through you?
23 Governor Bentley and you were -- either 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 93 Page 95
1 Q. Okay. And you didn't -- As I 1 Q. Okay.
2 understand you, I just want to make sure I'm 2 A. And that's about all I recall
3 right on this, you didn't know anything about 3 about us ever having a discussion about
4 the tapes when that arose, about Spencer 4 recordings.
5 needing to talk to the governor? 5 Q. Do you recall a situation in
6 A. No, sir. I was just informed 6 early 2014, where there was a request made to
7 that he needed to talk to the governor. 7 sweep Rebekah Mason's personal vehicle for
8 Q. And you didn't know anything 8 listening devices?
9 about the tapes until like the following 9 And I'm not trying to trick you,
10 morning or the next day; is that correct? 10 really, I'm not. So what I'm referring to,
11 A. That's correct. 11 there's a page from the impeachment report
12 Q. And you found out that from Linda 12 that's attributed to Corporal Nance Bishop.
13 Adams? 13 You know Nance?
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Did you know what was on the 15 Q. That he's saying that relatively
16 tapes at that time? 16 early in the campaign, he was asked to perform
17 A. No, sir. 17 a sweep of Rebekah Mason's vehicle and that the
18 Q. Did anybody ever communicate to 18 officer that requested it included Spencer and
19 you what was on them before the date they were 19 you?
20 released? 20 A. I recall an incident where that
21 A. No, sir. 21 request was made. I don't have any idea of
22 Q. Any discussions with Ray Lewis 22 time frame when that occurred. And I remember
23 about what was on the tapes? 23 speaking with Nance, and because it was a
Page 94 Page 96
1 A. No, sir. 1 private vehicle, we were told no. It was
2 Q. Any discussions with Robert 2 dropped.
3 Bentley about the tapes? 3 Q. Who told you no?
4 A. I told him what Ms. Adams had 4 A. Nance Bishop. Corporal Bishop.
5 told me. He said, yes, that's what he was told 5 Q. He told you no.
6 and that Spencer and Ray did not tell him what 6 A. Yes, sir. That they could not do
7 was on the audio recordings. And that was 7 that.
8 about the extent of our conversation. 8 Q. Was he -- He wasn't a part of the
9 Q. And did Bentley -- as I -- When 9 security detail, was he?
10 you talked to him, Bentley was saying he didn't 10 A. He was -- He had worked with the
11 know what was on the Recordings? 11 detail some. But he -- His job, I don't know
12 A. Correct. 12 exact title, he did like sweeping of the
13 Q. Do you know if he asked anybody 13 various offices, looking for bugs and that kind
14 to find out what was on the Recordings? 14 of stuff.
15 A. I don't know if he asked anyone. 15 Q. Right.
16 Q. Did you have any more 16 A. Electronic surveillance type
17 conversations with them about the recordings, 17 stuff.
18 up until the date that Spencer was terminated 18 Q. Yeah. He was the electronics
19 and you were made permanent secretary? 19 guy?
20 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 It seems like at one point he made the comment 21 Q. And he was being called in to do
22 that Paul was aware, but no one would tell him 22 it, and then the decision was made not to sweep
23 what was on the tapes. 23 her vehicle?
Page 97 Page 99
1 A. Correct. I asked him -- He would 1 with Rebekah Mason over a cell phone?
2 be the one that would do any sweeping of 2 A. Yes, sir. There have been times
3 anything. I do recall expressing to him that 3 I've heard him on the phone with her.
4 the governor wanted to know could we sweep 4 Q. Any of those, in your opinion,
5 Rebekah's vehicle. I didn't know his rules and 5 more than just employer/employee type phone
6 regulations regarding that, and he informed me, 6 calls?
7 no, that we could not. 7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
8 Q. Okay. So to make sure I'm 8 A. I didn't really listen, but I --
9 understanding right, Governor Bentley requested 9 I never heard anything that struck me as being
10 that you look into sweeping her vehicle? 10 odd or inappropriate or out of the way.
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. So the conversation you heard
12 Q. And then you contacted Corporal 12 would have been just like if he was talking to
13 Bishop; and then he said no, he couldn't, 13 Jennifer Ardis or Zach Lee?
14 because it was a private vehicle? 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 A. Correct. 15 Q. Didn't notice anything peculiar
16 Q. Do you know why Governor Bentley 16 about the conversation?
17 wanted to sweep her vehicle? 17 A. No, sir.
18 A. No, sir. 18 Q. In here -- And we kind of touched
19 Q. He didn't tell you why? 19 on it, but I want to make sure I've got this in
20 A. No, sir. 20 detail. It said that you -- that Stabler
21 Q. Did you report back to him you 21 recalls Lewis would frequently ask detail
22 couldn't do it? 22 members about Mason and Governor Bentley.
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 Did that occur, was Ray asking
Page 98 Page 100
1 Q. Did he say anything about that? 1 about it?
2 A. No, sir. He never asked again. 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. We talked about this a 3 Q. What kind of questions would Ray
4 little bit earlier, but on page 81 and 82 of 4 be asking?
5 the impeachment report, where you were talking 5 A. It was common he would ask me:
6 about Bentley developing new text messaging 6 Did Rebekah travel with y'all today; Rebekah
7 habits, and we had talked about that a little 7 come to the office today; if she wasn't in, did
8 before. 8 they talk on the phone, did they text.
9 And it says here that a couple of 9 Q. He ever ask you questions about
10 them said things like: I'm glad you're my 10 any other employee other than Rebekah?
11 friend or you're handsome. Do you remember 11 A. No, sir.
12 telling the Impeachment Committee folks that 12 Q. Did you ever ask Ray why he was
13 you saw a text like that? 13 asking?
14 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 14 A. No, sir.
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did you know that it was because
16 Q. And it was your assumption they 16 of the ongoing relationship between Bentley and
17 were coming from Rebekah Mason? 17 Mason?
19 A. I was very clear with the 19 A. No. I did not know why he was
20 Impeachment Committee, I did not know who they 20 asking.
21 were coming from. 21 Q. Didn't seem unusual that he
22 Q. Uh-huh. Did you, while you were 22 repeatedly asked about Mason's whereabouts and
23 with Bentley, ever hear him have conversations 23 her time spent with the governor?
Page 101 Page 103
1 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 1 A. He asked about our event down at
2 A. Yes, sir, that was unusual. 2 the Grand Hotel.
3 Q. And you never questioned him or 3 Q. And the time frame between that
4 any other members on the detail about why is 4 text message and the conversation with Ray, how
5 Ray asking these kind of questions? 5 much time would have elapsed between that?
6 A. Did I question anyone? 6 A. I don't know exactly. It could
7 Q. Yes. 7 have been the next day or could have been a
8 A. No, sir. 8 couple days. I don't recall if this was on a
9 Q. And as I understand it, during 9 weekend, maybe it was Monday that I saw Ray.
10 one of those conversations, you did mention to 10 But within the next couple or few days when I
11 Ray that -- about the text message we discussed 11 saw Ray.
12 earlier down at Point Clear? 12 Q. Take me through the conversation.
13 A. Correct. 13 Ray asked you about the trip?
14 Q. And make sure I understand your 14 A. I don't recall exactly how the
15 testimony, you didn't report it that night, up 15 conversation went, other than it was common for
16 the chain of command, and you didn't consider 16 him to ask about how our -- how our event went,
17 when you told Ray that this -- that was being a 17 if we had any problems. Again, he would always
18 report? 18 ask was Rebekah there or take part or travel.
19 A. Right. That's correct. 19 Q. And she wasn't?
20 Q. It just came up in a conversation 20 A. No, sir.
21 when Ray was questioning -- asking you about 21 Q. What prompted you to tell Ray
22 Mason? 22 about the text message you saw?
23 A. That's correct. 23 A. Because he asked. He always
Page 102 Page 104
1 Q. Do you recall when your 1 asked: Did she travel, was she calling, did
2 conversation with Ray about the email -- I 2 they talk on the phone, did he slip off and
3 mean, not the email. Let me back up. 3 talk to her.
4 You saw a text message from 4 Q. And what was your response to
5 Rebekah you said the phone was in the cup 5 that?
6 holder after you had dropped the governor and 6 A. I said -- Again, I don't recall
7 dropped a man off at the Grand Hotel, wasn't 7 exact words, but something to the effect that I
8 it? 8 did see a text; I said, I assume it was
9 A. Yes. 9 probably from Rebekah, and told him what it
10 Q. Is that where it was? 10 said.
11 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 11 Q. So to make sure the testimony is
12 A. I didn't testify I saw a text 12 clear. You didn't see -- You couldn't tell
13 message from Rebekah. 13 from the text that it was actually Rebekah?
14 Q. You saw a text message? 14 A. I did not see a name on the text,
15 A. Correct. 15 no, sir.
16 Q. And then at some point, you had a 16 Q. But you made the assumption it
17 conversation with Ray about that text message? 17 was Rebekah?
19 Q. At that time did you realize it 19 Q. You didn't believe it was Dianne
20 was from Rebekah? 20 Bentley?
21 A. No, sir. 21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. How did it come up in the 22 Q. What led you to believe that it
23 conversation with Ray? 23 was Rebekah?
Page 105 Page 107
1 A. Because he had just hung up the 1 members?
2 phone in talking with Rebekah. 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. What was that conversation about? 3 Q. And like you said at the press
4 A. I do not know what the 4 conference, some more than others?
5 conversation was about. 5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
6 Q. You didn't hear him? 6 Q. Is that what you understood?
7 A. Nothing that I could -- 7 A. He said that at the press
8 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 8 conference.
9 A. Nothing that I can recall. Just 9 Q. Did you ever have any
10 in the conversation I realized he was talking 10 conversations with Heather Hannah after she
11 to Rebekah, most likely. 11 quit her job, after she left?
12 Q. How did you know he was talking 12 A. No, sir. I recall one
13 to Rebekah? 13 communication after she left, and that was
14 A. I don't recall what made me think 14 basically an email she sent a lot of the
15 that. I don't know if he mentioned something, 15 staffers with her new contact information for
16 asked about John or the kids or something, or 16 her new job. I think I replied back wishing
17 even said -- called her by name, I don't recall 17 her well on her new job, and that was it.
18 what made me think that, but I was just under 18 Q. And the impeachment report says
19 the impression that's who he was talking to. 19 that you admitted Mrs. Bentley would confide in
20 Q. Did you recall the time frame of 20 you at times when y'all were together and that
21 this trip, like month, year? 21 you received text messages from Mrs. Bentley on
22 A. From what I've read and heard, I 22 occasion; is that a true statement?
23 think it was in August of '14. 23 A. Yes --
Page 106 Page 108
1 Q. By that point in time, did you 1 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
2 have some concerns that the relationship 2 A. Yes, sir, that's a true
3 between Robert Bentley and Rebekah Mason was 3 statement.
4 more than just an employer/employee? 4 Q. And you would have told the
5 A. No, sir, I don't think so. 5 Impeachment Committee that -- the
6 Q. And so this text that you saw 6 investigators, I mean, the lawyers?
7 that you assumed came from Rebekah, you didn't 7 A. It's very possible that I did,
8 have any reason to believe that they were 8 yes, sir.
9 emotionally involved at the time? 9 Q. And what kind of stuff would she
10 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 10 confide in you?
11 A. No, sir. It did not alarm me. 11 A. The text messages, like if they
12 Q. Did the text include the 12 were having an argument; like when he would
13 statement: I love you? 13 leave after an argument, things like that.
14 A. To my recollection it did, yes, 14 She had confided in me the
15 sir. 15 concern of the governor's mental state at one
16 Q. And based on -- Well, and you 16 time, had made arrangements to fly him out and
17 didn't see anything inappropriate about that 17 have some tests done; she had confided in me
18 text? 18 about that. That's the main things I recall.
19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 19 Q. Did she talk to you about her
20 A. No, sir. Because Governor 20 concerns that he was having an affair with
21 Bentley expressed that with a lot of staff 21 Rebekah?
22 members. 22 A. She never expressed to me that
23 Q. That he loved all the staff 23 she thought he was having a physical affair.
Page 109 Page 111
1 She was concerned about -- or it appeared to me 1 Q. Tell me about that conversation.
2 she was concerned about how much time that they 2 A. I believe it was the day prior to
3 spent together. 3 the inauguration. First, she texted me and
4 Q. And for the purpose of these 4 asked me if I could call her. So when I did
5 questions, I'm not asking about whether Robert 5 call her, she told me they were coming to the
6 Bentley and Rebekah Mason ever had sexual 6 inauguration. I think it was the day before.
7 intercourse or oral sex like he said in the 7 That she did not want Governor Bentley to know
8 deposition. I'm just saying, was Mrs. Bentley 8 that they were coming.
9 confiding in you, concerned about there was 9 Q. Okay. Did she say anything about
10 more than just an employer/employee 10 Rebekah Mason?
11 relationship between Robert Bentley and Rebekah 11 A. Yes, sir. She asked if me and
12 Mason? 12 the other security could keep Rebekah away from
13 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 13 her and her family.
14 A. The only things I really remember 14 Q. Did she say why?
15 her talking to me about, she expressed to me 15 A. No, sir.
16 one time she was concerned with the fact that 16 Q. And did you report this to the
17 she was under the impression that Rebekah had 17 governor?
18 advised the governor that when they were out in 18 A. Yes, sir, I did.
19 public, the governor and Mrs. Bentley, that he 19 Q. What did the governor say?
20 should refrain from showing affection in 20 A. He thanked me for letting him
21 public. That was a concern that she raised 21 know because he didn't know if they were coming
22 that I remember. 22 or not, and he was trying to make arrangements
23 And Mrs. Bentley raised the 23 and preparations for the inauguration, seating
Page 110 Page 112
1 concern about Rebekah and the governor having 1 arrangements and such as that.
2 gone out to Wynfield or go out -- going out to 2 Q. Did y'all have a plan in place
3 Wynfield. 3 about keeping Rebekah and Mrs. Bentley away
4 Q. Did Mrs. Bentley ever inform you 4 from each other?
5 that the -- that the text messages between 5 A. No, sir.
6 Robert Bentley and Rebekah Mason were popping 6 Q. Never even talked about what do
7 up on her iPad? 7 we do if they get close or Mrs. Bentley wants
8 A. I did not know that was 8 her kept away?
9 happening, I guess, until it came out in the 9 A. No, sir. And I told Mrs. Bentley
10 news media. 10 there was nothing we could do with the guests
11 Q. Okay. Mrs. Bentley never 11 that the governor had invited.
12 explained that to you? 12 Q. Let me take you up to the date
13 A. No, sir. 13 that you were asked by Governor Bentley to be
14 Q. The times she was confiding with 14 the acting or interim secretary of ALEA.
15 you about Bentley and Mason spending so much 15 A. All right.
16 time together, she never mentioned anything 16 Q. Before that date, did you have
17 about I know, I've seen the text messages or 17 any conversation with Robert Bentley about
18 anything like that? 18 coming in to be the acting secretary?
19 A. No, sir. 19 A. No, sir. Not at all.
20 Q. Okay. Did Mrs. Bentley call you 20 Q. Had you -- I'm sorry?
21 about the inauguration and whether she was 21 A. Not at all.
22 going to come to the inauguration? 22 Q. Had you ever had any conversation
23 A. Yes, sir, she did. 23 with Governor Bentley where he expressed any
Page 113 Page 115
1 displeasure with Spencer? 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 A. The governor had made some 2 Q. Okay. And that would have been
3 statements to me, yes, sir. 3 on February 17, 2016?
4 Q. Tell me what those were and when 4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
5 they were. 5 Q. And where were you at the time?
6 A. If I recall correctly, it was 6 A. I was at the Robertsdale EMA
7 out -- in the mansion area they used to walk in 7 building. We were fixing to start a class
8 a circle, he and Mrs. Bentley. I was out in 8 called NIMS, 600 level class I was taking, that
9 the parking area, I think Mrs. Bentley went on. 9 was at a training class.
10 The governor asked me about Spencer's 10 Q. And tell me what you recall about
11 attendance at work, had I seen him at work very 11 the conversation.
12 much. And he had expressed his concern that 12 A. Just prior to eight o'clock,
13 Spencer was on medication and may be affecting 13 right before class started, my phone rang, I
14 his ability to come to work and make decisions. 14 stepped out in the hallway and answered it, it
15 Q. Okay. Any other conversations 15 was the governor. He asked where I was; I said
16 about it? 16 I'm in Robertsdale starting training. I said,
17 A. No, sir. 17 do you need me to come to Montgomery; he said
18 Q. Any conversation about Spencer 18 yes -- I first thought something was going on
19 giving the affidavit in the Mike Hubbard case? 19 with one of the detail members. He said, yes;
20 A. No. I didn't know anything about 20 he said, I'm going to put Spencer on medical
21 the affidavit until after it all blew up in the 21 leave, and I need to you run ALEA while he's
22 media. 22 gone. He said, it will be ninety days at the
23 Q. Was he asking you about whether 23 most. He said, go ahead and head toward
Page 114 Page 116
1 Spencer was coming to work or anything like 1 Montgomery and call Spencer on your way up and
2 that? 2 y'all make arrangements to meet when you get
3 A. He asked me how often I saw him 3 there.
4 at work. 4 Q. So your understanding was it was
5 Q. And how often would that be? 5 just temporarily while Spencer had his back
6 A. As I told the governor, I said, 6 surgery and healed up?
7 you know, I'm not over there in that building 7 A. Correct.
8 that much. 8 Q. Did he express anything to you
9 Q. And that's why I was trying to 9 about he was wanting to punish Spencer for
10 figure out why he would be asking you about 10 giving the affidavit?
11 Spencer's condition or whether he was at the 11 A. No, sir.
12 office or not at the office. 12 Q. And he said it would be ninety
13 A. I don't know why he asked me. 13 days at most?
14 Q. Because as I understand, you 14 A. Correct.
15 wouldn't have really known one way or the 15 Q. Was it your belief at the time
16 other? 16 that at ninety days, or sooner if Spencer had
17 A. Correct. I spent the majority of 17 healed and recovered, that he would be coming
18 my time at the Capitol. 18 back and you would be going back to the DPU?
19 Q. And the ALEA office was in a 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 different building? 20 Q. Okay. On page ninety-four of
21 A. Yes, sir. Across the street. 21 Bentley's deposition -- and if I need to show
22 Q. And then Governor Bentley called 22 you the deposition, it's not a trick question,
23 you to ask you to be the acting secretary? 23 these are my notes, but I've got the deposition
Page 117 Page 119
1 here -- he said that: When I appointed him, 1 was that very day. The day that I was made
2 meaning you, as secretary, as interim 2 acting secretary was a pretty busy day, it
3 secretary, I said: Stan, I said, I want you to 3 might have been the following day or maybe it's
4 go in and be the acting secretary, and you have 4 third day, I would think.
5 all the authority to do whatever is necessary, 5 Q. And what did he tell you?
6 whether you find -- or whatever is there or if 6 A. From what I remember, just
7 you find anything, I'm giving you the authority 7 basically that two people had told him, because
8 to do your job like if you were the regular 8 they knew that he was acquainted with me and we
9 director or the secretary. 9 were somewhat friends, that he needed to warn
10 Do you recall having a 10 me that I needed to watch my back, and not to,
11 conversation like with Governor Bentley? 11 in so many words, take the fall for something
12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 12 Spencer would have done.
13 A. I recall something along that 13 Q. Did you ask him what that was
14 lines. It would have been probably a week and 14 about?
15 a half, two weeks into -- after I had been made 15 A. He didn't know. He just said
16 the acting secretary. 16 that's what -- the message he got from some
17 Q. So when he said that when he 17 people.
18 appointed you, and he told you that, that's not 18 Q. Do you know who it came from?
19 your recollection how it happened? 19 A. No, sir, I do not.
20 A. No, sir. 20 Q. And all -- Was Nance saying, you
21 Q. He did not make that statement to 21 need to watch your back and not take the fall?
22 you until a week and a half, two weeks later? 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 A. The only statement I recall when 23 Q. And you didn't know what the fall
Page 118 Page 120
1 he appointed me as acting secretary was to run 1 was?
2 ALEA. 2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Did you have a 3 Q. You didn't know what to look out
4 conversation with him at any time to the -- in 4 for?
5 substance, about, you know, whatever you find, 5 A. I knew that it involved money.
6 whatever is there, that you run it like you're 6 Q. Okay. Do you know how Nance knew
7 the regular director? 7 about anything?
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 A. Other than what he told me, that
9 Q. Okay. How did that come about? 9 two people had reached out to him.
10 A. When I sat down to brief the 10 Q. Did you know who those two people
11 governor with the concerns I had that had been 11 were?
12 brought to me. 12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. And those concerns that were 13 Q. Did you ask him who they were?
14 brought to you, who brought the concerns to 14 A. No, sir.
15 you? 15 Q. So you didn't know what to look
16 A. I think the first person that 16 out for then?
17 said anything to me was Corporal Nance Bishop. 17 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
18 Q. Okay. When did -- 18 A. Based on that one conversation,
19 MR. SEGALL: Who did he say? 19 no, sir.
20 MR. MENDELSOHN: He said Corporal 20 Q. In reading the ALEA report, we'll
21 Nance Bishop. 21 go into it in more detail, April Bickhaus is
22 Q. When did he say something to you? 22 referring to a meeting held on February 29, of
23 A. I don't recall it was -- if it 23 2016, with you and Michael Robinson and
Page 121 Page 123
1 Bickhaus. And that she reported that -- Let me 1 Q. And why Michael?
2 see, that Michael Robinson had a file; is that 2 A. Because he was the general
3 correct? 3 counsel for legal -- the legal advice.
4 A. He -- 4 Q. He was general counsel?
5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 5 A. Or was moving into that position,
6 A. He may have. I don't recall. I 6 I believe.
7 know that we had some documentation. 7 Q. Who was moving him into that
8 Q. Okay. Who got that 8 position?
9 documentation? 9 A. There had already been some
10 A. It was given to us by Jennifer 10 discussion about moving Jason Swann out; I
11 Frost and may have been some from Robert 11 moved Michael into the position.
12 Ratliff at that time and possibly Jennifer 12 Q. So when you came out, they were
13 Holden. 13 moving -- they had moved Jason out?
14 Q. Did they give it to you? 14 A. I don't recall if he already had
15 A. I don't remember if they gave it 15 been moved. I think they had talked about
16 specifically to me or to me and Michael. I 16 moving him. I don't think he had been moved at
17 know that Michael and I both went and sat down 17 that time.
18 and talked with them. 18 Q. Who was talking about moving him?
19 Q. Did you have any documents before 19 A. From what I understood, Spencer
20 y'all went to talk to him? 20 and his administration.
21 A. No, sir, not that -- I didn't. I 21 Q. Was talking about moving Jason
22 don't know if anybody else did. 22 out?
23 Q. You don't know if Michael did? 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 122 Page 124
1 A. I don't know if he did. 1 Q. Who actually did the reassignment
2 Q. How did you know to go talk to 2 of him?
3 him? 3 A. I did.
4 A. Well, when the first issue was 4 Q. And why did -- What did you base
5 brought to me from Nance that indicated it was 5 that on?
6 concerning money, I figured our accounting 6 A. Just, I knew Michael; I've known
7 people were the people we needed to talk to. 7 Michael for a long time. I've had a lot of
8 My first thing, was I asked 8 dealings with Michael, department,
9 Michael, do we need to ask for a complete 9 business-wise throughout the years, and was
10 audit, for the auditor's office to come in. 10 comfortable in trusting Michael.
11 Q. Let me see if I got the sequence 11 Q. So this was on the 29th? Was
12 right. You're coming in as the interim or 12 that the day -- The 29th is the day, as I
13 acting secretary; right? 13 understand it, that J.T. was fired, Jay was
14 A. Correct. I did. 14 fired, Camilla was fired, Merritt was fired,
15 Q. Nance Bishop says: You need to 15 and Jack was moved to Mobile, Jack Wilson, that
16 watch your back and don't take the fall for 16 was all done on the 29th?
17 Spencer; right? 17 A. I would --
18 A. Correct. 18 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
19 Q. Thought it may be about money? 19 A. I would have to reflect back on
20 A. Correct. 20 the calendar. It was on a Monday.
21 Q. Who did you talk to after that? 21 Q. Let's back up to -- I'll get to
22 A. I think the first person I talked 22 that in a minute.
23 to was Michael. 23 But when you came in on the 17th,
Page 125 Page 127
1 a day or two later, you get the conversation 1 A. No, sir.
2 with Nance Bishop, and then you go to see 2 Q. In this report she says -- April
3 Michael; right? 3 Bickhaus says: Robinson stated that personnel
4 A. Yes, sir. I'm not sure how many 4 from the ALEA accounting division had
5 days; but, yes, sir, after I had talked to 5 approached Stabler following Collier's
6 Nance. 6 placement on medical leave.
7 Q. And tell me what you told 7 Who in accounting approached you?
8 Michael. 8 Or is that a true statement?
9 A. I think I just expressed to him 9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
10 what Nance had told me, and that my concern 10 A. I don't know exactly what she
11 was, like any business, if a new CEO comes in, 11 means by her statement. Like I said, we talked
12 they want to know what's going on in the 12 to Jennifer Frost, Robert Ratliff, Jennifer
13 operation, in the organization. And that, you 13 Holden.
14 know, it had been expressed to me that there 14 Q. My question is: Did you approach
15 may be some issues that I needed to be aware 15 them or did they approach you?
16 of. 16 A. I went -- Michael and I went to
17 Q. At that point in time, were you 17 Jennifer Frost's office.
18 familiar with, just as an agency, the 18 Q. How did y'all know to go to her?
19 Department of Public Examiners? 19 A. She was one of the senior
20 A. Yes, I'm familiar with them. 20 accountants.
21 Q. You knew what they did? 21 Q. Now, you assigned April Bickhaus
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 to conduct an investigation of the policy and
23 Q. Did you check with them? 23 procedures at ALEA under Spencer's term; right?
Page 126 Page 128
1 A. No, sir. 1 A. I instructed --
2 Q. And that's the state -- 2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
3 independent state agency, but still 3 A. I instructed her to do a review.
4 independent, that goes into other State 4 Q. Okay. And she was an
5 agencies and audits them? 5 administrative-type investigator, as opposed to
6 A. I'm not sure to what extent they 6 investigating, like, violent crimes or things
7 audit. I know that they look at a 7 like that; wasn't that her role?
8 checks-and-balance type. 8 A. Correct. She was assigned to the
9 Q. Okay. But you never thought to 9 Office of Secretary, not SBI.
10 check with them to see if they had audited 10 Q. She was assigned to the Office of
11 ALEA? 11 Secretary?
12 A. Well, I had asked Michael, that's 12 A. Yes. Office of Integrity falls
13 what I was asking Michael about, did we need to 13 under the Office of Secretary.
14 ask for a thorough audit. 14 Q. Was she a head of the Office of
15 Q. And did he, to your knowledge, 15 Integrity?
16 contact Public Examiners or public accounts -- 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Examiners of Public Accounts. 17 Q. She didn't have any supervisors?
18 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 18 A. No, sir. She was the supervisor.
19 Q. I'm sorry. It's called Examiners 19 Q. And that's the way it was before
20 of Public Accounts. Did Michael contact them? 20 you took over?
21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 21 A. Yes, before I took over.
22 A. Not to my knowledge. 22 Q. So she was reporting, during this
23 Q. And you didn't contact them? 23 investigation, directly to you?
Page 129 Page 131
1 A. Correct. 1 fall for Spencer Collier other than Nance
2 Q. That would have been the chain of 2 Bishop?
3 command up to you? 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 A. Correct. 4 Q. Who else?
5 Q. What was Michael Robinson's 5 A. I don't recall exactly who it
6 involvement supposed to be? 6 was. I think it might have come up in a
7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 7 conversation I had with Danny Hester, but I'm
8 A. Legal advice. 8 not sure if it was Danny or not.
9 Q. In your experience though, from 9 Q. Who is Danny?
10 all you hear as an ABI, staff attorneys don't 10 A. Retired lieutenant in DPS. At
11 conduct the investigation, do they? 11 that time was the -- worked at the Trooper
12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 12 Association.
13 A. No, sir. 13 Q. He was a lobbyist for the
14 Q. Don't direct the investigation? 14 Association?
15 A. They advise on investigations. 15 A. That may be, yes, sir.
16 Q. As needed? 16 Q. So you take office on February
17 A. Sir? 17 the 17th?
18 Q. As needed? 18 A. Correct.
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. At that time, had you had any
20 Q. I mean, when you were in ABI, if 20 problems with Spencer Collier?
21 you had a legal question, you could have called 21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
22 up to Montgomery and talked to one of the 22 A. What's your definition of
23 attorneys; right? 23 problems?
Page 130 Page 132
1 A. That's correct. 1 Q. Y'all knew each other?
2 Q. Did you ever have a case where 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 one of the in-house assistant attorney generals 3 Q. Y'all got along fine, didn't you?
4 assigned to DPS was involved in one of your 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 investigations? 5 Q. You were chief of DPU and he was
6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 6 your immediate supervisor; correct?
7 A. No, sir. 7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Never instructed you how to 8 Q. Y'all worked well professionally?
9 investigate? 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Did you have any suspicions that
11 Q. Who made the decision for Michael 11 he was doing anything wrong?
12 to be involved in this investigation? 12 A. No, sir.
13 A. I did. 13 Q. So what -- What did -- Let's go
14 Q. And why did you do that? 14 back from February 18, 19, you go to Michael,
15 A. Because it was a review of ALEA's 15 and then y'all go talk too Jennifer Frost and
16 policies and procedures; and April had 16 the folks in accounting. I'm correct that
17 questions, legal questions, and I assigned 17 that's how -- that's the sequence of events;
18 Michael. 18 right?
19 Q. To answer the legal question? 19 A. Yes. We did talk to the people
20 A. Yes, sir. And to assist her in 20 in accounting.
21 whatever way she needed. 21 Q. Again, just to make sure I'm
22 Q. Did anybody else -- Did anybody 22 right, you went to them as opposed to them
23 else tell you to watch out and not take the 23 coming to you?
Page 133 Page 135
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 Jennifer, what she was complaining about, was
2 Q. And after talking to them, what 2 the procedures for purchasing; right?
3 did y'all find out? 3 A. Correct.
4 A. Immediately, when we talked to 4 Q. And she had been keeping these
5 Mrs. Frost, she expressed, and I'm summarizing, 5 documents for years, she said?
6 that it was a relief that she had the 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 opportunity to talk to us about some of her 7 Q. But these would have been
8 concerns; that she had been saving 8 documents that would have been available to the
9 documentation for years. 9 Examiners of Public Accounts, wouldn't they?
10 Q. And what were her concerns? 10 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
11 A. The way the spending practices 11 A. I don't know. I would assume so.
12 were being handled at ALEA. 12 Q. And you know now they never found
13 Q. And this was procedural matters, 13 anything was wrong?
14 about how the procedures for spending were 14 A. I don't --
15 going on? 15 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 A. I don't know that they ever
17 Q. Did you know what those 17 looked.
18 procedures were? 18 Q. Did you ever talk to them?
19 A. That were not being properly 19 A. No, sir.
20 followed? 20 Q. You never went and questioned Ron
21 Q. Uh-huh. 21 Jones or anybody over there and say: Hey, I
22 A. I did not know which ones were 22 got these accountants telling me the procedures
23 not being properly followed at that time, no, 23 weren't followed, have y'all ever looked at
Page 134 Page 136
1 sir. I knew the proper procedure for 1 them?
2 purchasing. 2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
3 Q. From the Secretary's office? 3 Q. You didn't do that, did you?
4 A. From the policies and procedures 4 A. No, sir, I didn't.
5 in our manual, yes, sir. 5 Q. Let me ask you something: When
6 Q. Were you aware of the authority 6 you took over as acting secretary, did your
7 that the secretary had or didn't have? 7 salary change?
9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 9 Q. To what?
10 Q. How did you know about that? Did 10 A. When I became acting secretary,
11 you read the manual when you took over? 11 it was raised, I think, about thirty-three
12 A. I had already previously read the 12 thousand dollars a year.
13 manual. 13 Q. So were you then paid the amount
14 Q. Okay. And you know that certain 14 that the secretary was making?
15 levels are left up to the discretion of the 15 A. No, sir.
16 secretary, aren't they? 16 Q. How much were you making?
17 A. Clarify that. 17 A. One -- I think it was one
18 Q. I mean, when you were secretary, 18 forty-two or one forty-four a year.
19 you had the right to make decisions about 19 Q. And how much were you making
20 purchasing equipment, didn't you? 20 before that?
21 A. Yes, sir. I had the right to 21 A. One fifteen.
22 make the decisions, yes. 22 Q. And so you got a raise to be the
23 Q. Okay. And at this point, with 23 acting secretary?
Page 137 Page 139
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 because a lot happened on the 29th.
2 Q. And when you found out about 2 What other information did y'all
3 these procedural matters that Jennifer was 3 obtain, first, other than that meeting with
4 complaining about -- Do you know anything about 4 him?
5 her background? 5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 6 A. At that point, we had the -- some
7 A. Jennifer Frost? 7 of the documentation provided from Robert
8 Q. Uh-huh. 8 Ratliff, Jennifer Frost, the accountants.
9 A. No, sir. 9 Q. And when you got that, did y'all
10 Q. You haven't heard anything about 10 -- Well, let me kind of put it in a time frame,
11 the difficulties that she had been having, 11 okay? And I'll show you documents if we need
12 emotionally -- 12 to.
13 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 13 But the ALEA report says that on
14 Q. -- or Spencer having to provide 14 the 29th of February is when you assigned April
15 her with counseling or anything of that nature? 15 Bickhaus to start the investigation. Okay?
17 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 17 Q. And on the 29th was the date that
18 Q. You didn't know she had any 18 you fired the people in Spencer's inner-office
19 mental problems or substance abuse problems or 19 or transferred them; is that --
20 anything like that? 20 A. Correct.
21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 21 Q. I can show you documentation, if
22 A. No, sir. 22 we need to, but it's the 29th.
23 Q. Did you know her before this? 23 A. Correct.
Page 138 Page 140
1 MS. MAYS: Objection. 1 Q. I'm trying to figure out, between
2 A. No, sir. 2 taking office, getting the documentation and
3 Q. So the first time you met her was 3 information from the accountants, up to the
4 when you went to talk to her? 4 29th, what, if anything else, did you and
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 Michael or -- let me say first, did you do to
6 Q. So after you and Michael gather 6 investigate these accusations being made by
7 this information, what did you do next with it? 7 Jennifer Frost and the other accountants?
8 A. I also shared with Michael the 8 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
9 concerns from Senator Orr. 9 A. I didn't do anything to
10 Q. When did you get those concerns? 10 investigate. I looked over the documentation
11 A. I think the first I got them was 11 and discussed things with Michael.
12 on the 29th. 12 Q. Do you know if he did any other
13 Q. Okay. So before -- 13 investigation to gather any more documents?
14 MR. SEGALL: I'm sorry, Kenny. 14 A. No, sir, I do not know.
15 Shared with Michael what? 15 Q. And so were there any other
16 THE WITNESS: The concerns from 16 communications with anyone else about any
17 Senator Orr. 17 improprieties concerning Spencer Collier
18 Q. But you didn't get those until 18 between the time when you took office, up until
19 either the 29th or the 1st; right? 19 Monday, the 29th of February?
20 A. I think I got them on the 29th. 20 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
21 Q. Okay. What did you do between 21 A. Not that I recall. Mostly
22 the meetings with Jennifer Frost and up till 22 Michael and I had discussed things trying to
23 the 29th? Let's don't talk about the 29th, 23 decide what we thought would be the best path
Page 141 Page 143
1 to take. 1 A. You could be -- You could violate
2 Q. Do you know what was contained in 2 bid laws, I guess, depending on what it is.
3 the documents? 3 Q. But not at that low level?
4 A. I remember seeing some 4 A. No, sir.
5 expense/travel vouchers; I remember seeing some 5 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that
6 invoices, weapons and clothes. 6 that wasn't a concern to you?
7 Q. Were some of those clothes like 7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
8 the Kitanica jackets or Kitanica pants and 8 A. No, sir, it's not fair.
9 sweats? 9 Q. It's not fair. You felt like you
10 A. I do recall seeing those. 10 coming in on your first few days of the job,
11 Q. Did you believe that Spencer had 11 that buying testing materials or testing
12 bought all those for himself personally? 12 clothing was some kind of violation by Spencer?
13 A. Which ones are you making 13 A. That's not what I said. I said I
14 reference to? 14 -- the way that it was done concerned me,
15 Q. The Kitanica. 15 because it did not follow proper policy and
16 A. The one with like fifteen? 16 procedure.
17 Q. Yeah. 17 Q. Even if all you're doing is just
18 A. No, sir, I didn't think they were 18 testing to see if it is something that you
19 all bought for him. 19 would like?
20 Q. Were you familiar with the 20 A. Yes.
21 procedure of what we call T and E, about 21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
22 testing and evaluation? 22 Q. Okay. It's not a crime?
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 A. No, sir. I never said --
Page 142 Page 144
1 Q. Did you think there was anything 1 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
2 inappropriate about the purchase of those 2 A. I never said it was a crime.
3 fifteen pairs of Kitanica clothing? 3 Q. Okay. Did anything that you saw
4 A. From what I recall on that one, 4 before February 29th lead you to believe that
5 my concerns were, it was not a State vendor, 5 Spencer had committed any crime?
6 and they had not been properly bidded or 6 A. There was really only one thing
7 quoted. There's certain amounts you have to 7 that probably stuck out in my mind, that I felt
8 take bids and quotes for. 8 could possibly fall to the criminal element at
9 Q. What makes you think they weren't 9 that time.
10 a state vendor? 10 Q. What was that?
11 A. As I recall, I was told by the 11 A. That would have been the claiming
12 accounting department they were not approved 12 of reimbursement of sunglasses on a travel
13 vendors at that time. 13 voucher.
14 Q. Okay. They're -- I think the 14 Q. Did you know the circumstances
15 secretary has a right to request that somebody 15 surrounding it?
16 be an approved vendor, doesn't he? 16 A. At that time, I did not, no, sir.
17 A. Yes, sir. He can make that 17 Q. And that was just a concern of
18 request, and then that vendor has to take steps 18 yours, that it could be something wrong by
19 to get approved. 19 purchasing a pair of sunglasses; that the
20 Q. Right. Do you know of anything 20 secretary purchased a pair of sunglasses, that
21 criminal about buying something from a vendor 21 could be improper?
22 that's not approved? 22 A. My concern about it being
23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 23 improper was to sign a form certifying this was
Page 145 Page 147
1 travel incurred with your official capacity. 1 state government or agencies in state
2 Q. The sunglasses? I'm sorry. I'm 2 government?
3 missing something. Explain that to me again. 3 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
4 A. What are you asking? 4 A. I am aware the governor said
5 Q. No. I thought we were talking 5 that, yes.
6 about the purchasing of the sunglasses? 6 Q. Okay. Now, let's -- Let's go up
7 A. Correct. 7 to February the 29th. You assign April
8 Q. And then you're talking about 8 Bickhaus the task of investigating this matter?
9 travel -- 9 A. Reviewing ALEA, yes.
10 A. You asked me about what my 10 Q. Okay. When did you and Michael
11 concern was. 11 have the meeting with April? I mean, during
12 Q. About the sunglasses? 12 the day, I'm trying to figure out because a lot
13 A. Yes, sir. 13 went on that day. I'm trying to figure out --
14 Q. Yeah. And Tell me that again. 14 A. A lot. I do not know the time of
15 A. On this one particular pair of 15 the day.
16 sunglasses, they were reimbursed on a travel 16 Q. Do you recall if it was morning
17 voucher. When you sign a travel voucher, 17 or afternoon?
18 there's a little paragraph, and I don't know it 18 A. The best of my recollection, it
19 word for word, you can look at it and read it, 19 was afternoon, late afternoon.
20 but says something to the effect that you're 20 Q. And then at some point during
21 certifying that these are expenses incurred 21 that day, you terminated Merritt Hayes,
22 with travel in relation to your official job or 22 Spencer's executive assistant, secretary;
23 capacity. 23 right?
Page 146 Page 148
1 Q. I'll look for that during a 1 A. Correct.
2 break, I've got it here somewhere. But -- So 2 Q. Was that done in the afternoon or
3 it was the form wasn't right that concerned 3 the morning?
4 you? 4 A. I don't recall what time of the
5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 5 day it was done.
6 A. My concern was, was it some type 6 Q. Okay. And you terminated J.T.
7 of fraud. 7 Jenkins, who was Spencer's, basically, second
8 Q. And you never called Spencer to 8 in command; right?
9 ask him, did you? 9 A. Correct.
10 A. No, sir. 10 Q. You moved Jack Wilson back to
11 Q. Did you know that just a couple 11 Mobile, didn't you, or down to Mobile?
12 weeks before -- Well, no, let me ask you this 12 A. I wouldn't verbalize that. I
13 way: Were you at the state of the state 13 didn't move him anywhere, he was already
14 address in February of 2016? 14 assigned to Mobile.
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. But you -- But he was working in
16 Q. Were you providing security at 16 Montgomery with Spencer?
17 it? 17 A. Yes. That's correct.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what you did was just
19 Q. I know when you're providing 19 physically, in a sense, moved him back to his
20 security, your mind is on other things than 20 home base?
21 just listening to the governor. But were you 21 A. Told him I didn't need him in
22 aware that he said that ALEA, under Spencer's 22 Montgomery, correct.
23 reign, one of the most efficient branches of 23 Q. Right. Now -- And then Jason
Page 149 Page 151
1 Swann was moved to driver's license; right? 1 anything like that?
2 A. I don't know about driver's 2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
3 license. He was moved back into the legal 3 A. No, sir. Pertaining to Hal
4 unit. 4 Taylor, the decision had already been made that
5 Q. You didn't assign him to take 5 he was going to be moved back to SBI as a
6 over driver's license? 6 captain by Spencer.
7 A. I didn't make the assignments of 7 Q. Right.
8 the legal folks. 8 A. It was my understanding that
9 Q. Who would have made them? 9 Spencer even asked the governor that morning,
10 A. It would have been Michael in 10 well, do you want Stan to handle Hal when he
11 that case, since Michael became the supervisor 11 gets here. And he was instructed, no, you
12 over the legal unit. 12 handle it before he gets here.
13 Q. Was Jason the supervisor before 13 Q. And he was moved back into a
14 you moved him back? 14 merit system position?
15 A. Yes. He was -- I think they 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 called him the DAG. 16 Q. Okay. As of February 29th, when
17 Q. Okay. And so you move him out, 17 you fired these people, you knew Spencer was
18 then you give Michael the authority to put 18 not coming back to ALEA, didn't you?
19 Jason wherever he wanted? 19 A. No, sir, I did not know that.
20 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 20 Q. You really thought he was still
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 coming back?
22 Q. And then you also terminate Jay 22 A. There was a good possibility he
23 Howell? 23 was coming back, yes, sir.
Page 150 Page 152
1 A. Correct. 1 Q. And there had been no
2 Q. Terminate Camilla Gibson? 2 conversation with Governor Bentley about is
3 A. Correct 3 Spencer going to be fired?
4 Q. Were you going to terminate Hal 4 A. No, sir.
5 Taylor? 5 Q. If Spencer had come back, he
6 A. No, sir. 6 would have come back as the secretary; right?
7 Q. I don't mean this as authority by 7 A. Correct.
8 any means, but there was the article by Bill 8 Q. And you would have gone back to
9 Britt that came out called Monday Massacre. 9 DPU?
10 You've read that article, haven't you? 10 A. Or retired, yes, sir.
11 A. I recall it, yes, sir. 11 Q. Or retired. And if you had
12 Q. It mentioned that sources said 12 stayed on at DPU, he would have been your
13 that Hal was terminated, even though he wasn't 13 supervisor?
14 terminated. 14 A. Correct.
15 A. It's no telling what Bill Britt 15 Q. So you came in temporarily, and
16 said. 16 fired basically, or transferred, his senior
17 Q. I'm not arguing about Bill Britt. 17 staff?
18 I said it's not authoritative. 18 A. We eliminated those four
19 A. Right. 19 positions.
20 Q. I'm just trying to figure out if 20 Q. You didn't eliminate Merritt, you
21 you know how Bill Britt, somebody would have 21 just fired her?
22 told him that Hal was being fired. Was there 22 A. Now, she was not a merit
23 any decision by you to move Hal, fire Hal, 23 employee.
Page 153 Page 155
1 Q. I understand that. 1 MR. SEGALL: I'm sorry, I
2 A. That's correct. 2 couldn't hear that.
3 Q. But you fired her -- 3 THE WITNESS: I think it was mid-
4 A. Yes. 4 to late March before Governor Bentley disclosed
5 Q. -- his personal secretary? 5 anything about that to me.
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 MS. MAYS: Kenny, I think we need
7 Q. So if he had come back after he 7 to go off the Record for the videographer to be
8 healed up, his secretary was fired? 8 able to change the tape.
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 MR. MENDELSOHN: Okay. This is a
10 Q. And you would have been the one 10 good time. This may help me get a little
11 to fire her? 11 reorganized.
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 MS. MAYS: I need a little short
13 Q. And you did that thinking he was 13 break --
14 still coming back? 14 MR. MENDELSOHN: Sure. Sure.
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Sure.
16 Q. And J.T. Jenkins, who was his 16 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the
17 number two guy, you eliminated his position? 17 Record at 1:17 p.m.
18 A. Correct. 18 (Recess taken.)
19 Q. So if Spencer had come back -- if 19 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins disk
20 he had called the governor, say, three or four 20 number three in the deposition of Stan Stabler.
21 weeks later and said, governor, the doctors 21 We're back on the Record at 1:51 p.m.
22 cleared me, I feel good, I'm ready to come 22 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's
23 back, if he had come back, all his people were 23 Exhibit 17 was marked for
Page 154 Page 156
1 out of the office, weren't they? 1 identification purposes.)
2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 2 Q. I wanted to show you what I've
3 A. You say all, those four were, 3 marked as Exhibit 16. This -- Parts of it were
4 yes, sir. 4 in Governor Bentley's deposition, but may be
5 Q. Well, it's actually -- And Mark 5 duplicative of some stuff that I want to --
6 Barber was transferred out? 6 whole email chain. If you could just take a
7 A. Yes. Mark Barber was transferred 7 second and look at that.
8 back to narcotics where he was a previous 8 MS. MAYS: Did you say 16? Or
9 narcotics sergeant. 9 17?
10 Q. Okay. So if Spencer had come 10 MR. MENDELSOHN: 16.
11 back, he was going to have to reassemble his 11 MS. MAYS: We have a 16.
12 own people again because you'd let them go? 12 MR. MENDELSOHN: Do we? I'm
13 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 13 sorry.
14 A. That would have been his choice. 14 (Off-the-Record discussion
15 Q. Okay. Did you have any 15 was held.)
16 conversations with Governor Bentley about him 16 Q. Did you have a chance to
17 going to fire Spencer? 17 familiarize yourself with it?
18 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Asked and answered. 19 Q. Just so we can make sure we're on
20 A. Governor Bentley did tell me 20 the same wavelength, this is an email from
21 that, I do not recall exactly when. It was 21 Blake Hardwich to you, which attached
22 closer to mid- or late March before he 22 information from Senator Arthur Orr?
23 disclosed that to me. 23 A. Correct.
Page 157 Page 159
1 Q. Her email to you was February 29, 1 Q. It just came out of the clear
2 at 5:21 p.m. 2 blue?
4 Q. And then we've got Arthur Orr's 4 Q. Had there been any talks about
5 information attached to it. And then your 5 having a meeting the following day, on March
6 email response back to Blake which appears to 6 1st? You know that Governor Bentley referred
7 be written on February 29 at 8:45 p.m.? 7 to a March 1st meeting, I thought he said you
8 A. Correct. 8 were in on it.
9 Q. And is this the information about 9 A. Oh, with the governor's office?
10 Senator Orr you had talked about earlier? 10 Q. Yes.
12 Q. And he was on the budget 12 Q. But you didn't know why she sent
13 committee, did you know that, when you saw 13 this to you?
14 this? 14 A. I think she sent it at the
15 A. Don't know if I was aware of it 15 direction of the governor.
16 right there at that point, but fairly quickly. 16 Q. Did you tell the governor that
17 Q. And as of this date, you'd never 17 you were going to fire or transfer these folks
18 been involved in the state budgetary process, 18 that were on Spencer's senior staff, for lack
19 had you? 19 of a better term, but you know I'm talking
20 A. No, sir. 20 about -- mostly talking about, like, Jay
21 Q. None of your jobs even as 21 Howell, J.T. Jenkins, Jack Wilson. Did you
22 supervisor required you to meet with the 22 talk to governor about it before you made the
23 finance director or with the legislature about 23 moves, the transfers and the termination?
Page 158 Page 160
1 appropriations or the budgets? 1 A. No, sir.
2 A. That's correct. 2 Q. You did that on your own?
3 Q. Never been involved in the 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 political aspects of it, had you? 4 Q. Did you talk to anybody on the
5 A. No, sir. 5 governor's staff about it before?
6 Q. Same thing, even in law 6 A. No, sir.
7 enforcement, even though I know you applied for 7 Q. Okay. In looking at Senator
8 a chief of police job, you never observed as a 8 Orr's report here, he is talking about a couple
9 chief of police dealing with a city council? 9 of State employees with different base and work
10 A. Correct. 10 stations. Do you see that, the first
11 Q. And you never served on the city 11 paragraph? That's where he's talking about
12 council or county commission? 12 overnight --
13 A. No, sir. 13 A. Number one, where it says
14 Q. Never served in the legislature? 14 overnight travel, Mobile?
15 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Right.
16 Q. You got indoctrinated into the 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 budget processing the following year, didn't 17 Q. When you reviewed this, did you
18 you? 18 conclude that pertained to J.T. Jenkins and Jay
19 A. Correct. 19 Howell?
20 Q. And so at the time this came up, 20 A. That was --
21 did you know you were going to get this 21 Q. Or did you know?
22 information from Blake before it came? 22 A. I don't know if it pertained to
23 A. No, sir. 23 them or not.
Page 161 Page 163
1 Q. Okay. Did you know it pertained 1 expenses, do you know who he was referring to?
2 to ALEA? 2 A. No, sir, I do not.
3 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Didn't know if it was ALEA or
4 Q. Do you see anything in that first 4 other agencies?
5 paragraph that would lead you to suspect that 5 A. I did not know who he was
6 Spencer Collier had committed any crimes 6 referring to.
7 related to those payments? 7 Q. So nothing down here indicated
8 A. No, sir. 8 that Spencer was doing anything wrong?
9 Q. The second paragraph, clothing 9 A. No, sir.
10 allowance, it does refer to law enforcement; 10 Q. Subsistence pay, did you know who
11 correct? 11 he was referring to in that?
12 A. Correct. 12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. And it talks about the eight 13 Q. Did you believe that that was
14 hundred and fifty dollars per year -- per 14 solely ALEA?
15 person per year; right? 15 A. No, sir.
16 A. Correct. 16 Q. So you didn't see anything in
17 Q. Did you change that when you 17 that indicating that Spencer had done anything
18 became ALEA secretary? 18 wrong?
20 Q. You didn't reduce the amount? 20 Q. And then overtime costs, and it
21 A. No, sir. 21 says due to mismanagement. Now, ALEA is
22 Q. Did you take it away from any 22 mentioned in there, do you see that?
23 particular groups of folks? 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 162 Page 164
1 A. Right before -- Prior to me 1 Q. But also there's mention of a
2 leaving, we had not issued a clothing allowance 2 correctional captain, that would be somebody
3 at that time. 3 with the Department of Corrections; right?
4 Q. But it hadn't been abolished? 4 A. Correct.
5 A. No, sir, it had not been 5 Q. Did you investigate the
6 abolished. 6 Department of Corrections?
7 Q. That's one of those 7 A. No, sir.
8 budgetary-type issues? 8 Q. Did you investigate the
9 A. Correct. 9 commissioner of the Department of Corrections?
10 Q. And as I understand it, you, in 10 A. No, sir.
11 2017, went to the legislature seeking a sixty 11 Q. The marine resource director, at
12 million dollar increase in the budget? 12 that time would he have been under ALEA?
14 Q. But based upon what you got from 14 Q. Did you investigate the marine
15 Senator Orr here, is there anything in there 15 resource director?
16 that led you to suspect that Spencer Collier 16 A. No, sir.
17 had created or was committing a crime with 17 Q. Then it talks again about
18 relation to any other employee than himself? 18 correctional officers and ALEA employees who
19 A. No. 19 are doubling their salaries. Did you look into
20 Q. Or for that matter, at that 20 that?
21 point, even for himself? 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 A. Correct. 22 Q. Did you find any ALEA officers
23 Q. The next one about mileage 23 that were doubling their salaries?
Page 165 Page 167
1 A. I don't know if they were 1 Q. So you don't see anything in
2 doubling their salaries. We did have a lot of 2 there that indicates Spencer was doing anything
3 troopers working a lot of overtime, most of 3 wrong as the ALEA secretary?
4 that overtime being paid by DOT or by grants. 4 A. No.
5 Q. A lot of the overtime would be 5 Q. Certainly nothing that would
6 construction sites; correct? 6 suspect you of him committing a crime?
7 A. Correct. 7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And those were not coming out of 8 Q. And again, in looking at that,
9 ALEA's budget? 9 he's talking about mismanagement, that's what
10 A. Correct. 10 term Orr used?
11 Q. So nothing in this paragraph 11 A. That's the term he used, yes.
12 indicates that Spencer was doing anything 12 Q. He didn't use criminal?
13 wrong? 13 A. Correct.
14 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And management may be different,
15 Q. And to make sure, the part about 15 depending upon who the manager is, of course;
16 the correctional officers receiving overtime, 16 right?
17 you didn't investigate that? 17 A. Correct.
18 A. No, sir. 18 Q. And your view of managing ALEA
19 Q. Nobody in your office 19 may differ than Spencer's view of managing
20 investigated that? 20 ALEA?
21 A. No, sir. 21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Did you turn it over to the DOC 22 Q. Or Hal Taylor's management now?
23 and say, hey, we've done this information; 23 A. Correct.
Page 166 Page 168
1 y'all may want to put your investigators on it? 1 Q. And Hal Taylor may think some of
2 A. No, sir, I did not. 2 the stuff you did was not good management?
3 Q. Would you agree with me that the 3 A. Correct.
4 overtime of construction sites is a very 4 Q. But that wouldn't make it a crime
5 important function of ALEA? 5 because you felt it was good management?
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 A. That's correct.
7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 7 Q. Okay. Now, tell me about the
8 Q. It is to provide safety for 8 meeting on March the 1st. What do you recall
9 travelers who are approaching road construction 9 about that meeting?
10 sites? 10 A. What I remember now, that
11 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 basically was the first time that we really sat
12 Q. And what we're talking about is 12 down with the governor and expressed any
13 construction on highways, we're not talking 13 concerns that we had with the way things were
14 about building a house in the neighborhood; 14 being done in ALEA.
15 correct? 15 Q. As I understand it, from former
16 A. Correct. 16 Governor Bentley, there was discussions about
17 Q. And it has been commonplace for 17 how to handle the press related to the
18 ALEA-uniformed officers, and before them public 18 termination of all those people, meaning
19 safety troopers, to work construction sites? 19 Camilla Gibson, Merritt Hayes, J.T., Jay, that
20 A. That's correct. 20 group of folks. Was that discussed?
21 Q. Okay. And that's been around for 21 A. It may have been. I don't recall
22 a long time? 22 what was discussed about it.
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. But you don't recall anything
Page 169 Page 171
1 specific about what do we do, as far as -- Were 1 yes, sir.
2 you aware that the press -- Well, had the press 2 Q. And before that, it was just you
3 reached out to you about the terminations? 3 and Michael talking to some accountants and
4 A. I'm sure they had. Yes, sir, 4 looking at some documents?
5 they actually didn't reach out to me, they 5 A. Correct.
6 reached out to the public information office. 6 Q. Was it at this March 1st meeting
7 Q. They didn't talk to you? 7 that you explained to him that you had assigned
8 A. Not to me, no, sir. 8 April to it?
9 Q. So in the meeting, were you 9 A. I believe so, yes.
10 asking the governor or anybody in there what do 10 Q. So you decided to assign April to
11 I do about the press? 11 do it without getting the governor's permission
12 A. I knew what they were going to, 12 or consent?
13 you know, look at some type of response. 13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Okay. In that -- In Bentley's 14 Q. And, again, I'm not saying you
15 deposition -- I have a copy of it here and I 15 didn't have the authority, I'm just saying as a
16 promise I'm really not trying to ask any trick 16 practical matter, you didn't do that?
17 questions. But, you know, if we need to look 17 A. That's correct.
18 at it -- I'm, in a way, trying to speed things 18 Q. And you knew that Spencer had
19 up, but if we need to look at it, please do. 19 been one of Bentley's closest allies through
20 Governor Bentley testified that 20 the years?
21 it was your decision to investigate Spencer, 21 A. Yes.
22 not his; is that correct? 22 Q. That they were close friends?
23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 23 A. Yes.
Page 170 Page 172
1 A. It was my decision to initiate a 1 Q. And you didn't have any reason to
2 review. 2 believe at that time that the governor was
3 Q. Okay. And you did -- Let me ask 3 going to fire Spencer?
4 you this: Did you ask Governor Bentley for his 4 A. No, I did not.
5 consent or permission before you did it? 5 Q. Didn't know that the governor was
6 A. No, sir. 6 mad at Spencer for giving the affidavit in the
7 Q. And I'm not getting into whether 7 Hart -- with Matt Hart in the Hubbard case?
8 you had the authority as acting secretary or 8 A. I don't recall when I learned
9 didn't, but you didn't run it by Governor 9 about the affidavit situation. I know it was
10 Bentley first? 10 after the 17th of February, but I don't know
11 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 11 the exact date.
12 A. I did discuss it with him, but I 12 Q. Would it have been before the
13 did not ask his permission. I expressed to him 13 1st?
14 our concerns and the direction I felt like we 14 A. I don't know. I don't recall.
15 needed to go. 15 Q. In his deposition, and I'm
16 Q. And when was that? 16 referring to pages 116 and 117, if you need to
17 A. That might have been in that 17 look at it. 116, on line 17, I ask him: Who
18 March 1st meeting. I'm not sure the exact. 18 made that decision to turn it over to the
19 Q. But before March the 1st, there 19 Attorney General's office? And he said: We
20 wasn't really a formal -- Well, starting March 20 made a decision to go to his office on where to
21 29th is when there was an assignment to do a 21 send this. It actually -- It was at the March
22 formal investigation; right? 22 1st meeting.
23 A. Assigned April to do the review, 23 Is that your recollection?
Page 173 Page 175
1 A. Of what we discussed on March 1 prosecutor's office, like a DA or to the
2 1st? 2 attorney general or to the U.S. Attorney;
3 Q. Uh-huh. 3 right?
4 A. I recall us -- I don't recall if 4 A. I'm not sure I understand your
5 it was done on March 1st, but I'm not going to 5 question.
6 say it wasn't. I do know that we had discussed 6 Q. Okay. You're assigned an
7 if there were something that we needed to refer 7 investigation of a crime.
8 it to, who would we refer it to. And the 8 A. Right.
9 decision was made to the Attorney General's 9 Q. And in the course of -- And
10 office. 10 there's been no arrest, it's not like a robbery
11 Q. Okay. If y'all discovered any 11 where they arrest somebody --
12 crimes? 12 A. Correct.
13 A. Correct. 13 Q. -- and then you're investigating?
14 Q. Okay. 14 There are situations where you
15 A. Or if we discovered anything that 15 would investigate a case because it was
16 we felt had the potential of being criminal. 16 assigned to you?
17 Q. This was before the 17 A. Correct.
18 investigation -- or the day after the 18 Q. And if you determined that there
19 investigation was started? 19 was probable cause to believe that the person
20 A. Correct. 20 you're investigating committed a crime, then
21 Q. And when was the actual referral 21 you had the authority to arrest that person;
22 to the Attorney General's office done? 22 right?
23 A. I don't know the date without 23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
Page 174 Page 176
1 having to look back through some documentation 1 A. I understand.
2 to find it. 2 Q. Yeah. You've done that before,
3 Q. Would there be a document of a 3 haven't you?
4 referral? 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 A. Yes, sir. I know that, if I 5 Q. Where you actually do an arrest
6 recall correctly, I think Michael and April met 6 warrant and affidavit --
7 with some people from the Attorney General's 7 A. Correct.
8 office. And I actually received a letter from 8 Q. -- and you're swearing that
9 Luther Strange saying that this had been 9 that's true and you're citing the statute and
10 referred to their office and please provide and 10 all like that; right?
11 he gave a list of some documentation he wanted. 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. I've seen a letter like that, I 12 Q. Okay. Or you could, like, go to
13 believe. But would there be any ALEA document 13 the local district attorney's office and say:
14 that would be executed to show that the request 14 I've got this information, and give it to the
15 was made to the Attorney General's office? 15 DA, to present to the grand jury?
16 A. Not to my knowledge. 16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And let me call on your -- just 17 Q. Or to an attorney general?
18 your experience as being an ABI agent, if you 18 A. My experience when I was in ABI,
19 are investigating a matter where there hadn't 19 either I presented an affidavit to a magistrate
20 been an arrest let's say, just an 20 to get a warrant or I presented evidence to a
21 investigation, and you determine there was 21 grand jury.
22 probable cause, you had the option to either 22 Q. I understand. Were there any
23 arrest them or to refer it to a -- well, to a 23 documentations that you used? Were there any
Page 177 Page 179
1 ALEA forms that say this is the form you fill 1 A. No, sir.
2 out to refer to a district attorney? 2 Q. Or that Governor Bentley would
3 A. From my experience, each county 3 support Spencer?
4 had their own set of forms used. We refer to 4 A. No, sir.
5 it as a grand jury packet normally. 5 Q. And didn't have any reason to
6 Q. Okay. 6 believe that anything in the Arthur Orr
7 A. And it was not so much ALEA forms 7 information implicated Spencer in anything?
8 as it was the county that it pertained to. 8 A. No.
9 Q. And what I'm trying to determine, 9 Q. So what you have on March 1st, if
10 not so much in your brain what was said, but 10 I'm right, is these several people had been
11 would there be a paper form or a document, a 11 fired and that you had assigned April Bickhaus
12 package, in ALEA's records that would show the 12 to investigate -- to do a review; right?
13 referral to the Attorney General's office? 13 A. You're mixing two issues. And
14 A. There could be. April could have 14 the first question --
15 drafted a memo or a request. I don't know if 15 Q. Okay. Let's go. On March 1st,
16 she did or not. 16 just make sure, and I hate to be repetitive.
17 Q. Okay. That's what I'm trying to 17 On March 1st, when y'all are in this meeting,
18 figure out, what I would need to ask for or who 18 first of all, the meeting was -- Do you know
19 I would ask to see, whether there was anything 19 why Bentley called the meeting?
20 more than that meeting that they had? 20 A. If I recall correctly, we
21 A. I know that I never drafted one. 21 requested to see the governor.
22 Q. Okay. So on March 1, 2016, 22 Q. Okay.
23 everybody involved in the meeting was aware of 23 A. When I say we, ALEA, myself.
Page 178 Page 180
1 Senator Orr's information; right? 1 Q. Okay. And who did you talk to to
2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 2 request it, and what did you say to those
3 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 3 people? Or who on your behalf?
4 Q. Certainly you, the governor, 4 I'm not saying you called over
5 Jennifer -- I mean Blake, not Jennifer, but 5 there, but how did the meeting get set up to
6 Blake, all knew about that? 6 your knowledge?
7 A. Correct. 7 A. If I recall, I called and spoke
8 Q. Were you aware of the emails 8 with Julie Lindsey, who was like a
9 going back and forth between Spencer and 9 receptionist/secretary over there --
10 Senator Orr -- 10 Q. Yes.
11 A. No, sir. 11 A. -- and said I need to get in and
12 Q. -- about these issues? 12 see the governor today.
13 A. No, sir. 13 Q. And she set up a meeting time?
14 Q. Were you aware of the email that 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Robert Bentley sent to Spencer in which he 15 Q. Okay. Who all was at that
16 said: I support you, Spencer? 16 meeting?
17 A. I have heard about that email, 17 A. I recall it was me and Michael
18 long after the March 1st meeting. 18 and April and the governor and Blake Hardwich.
19 Q. Right. 19 I can't remember if Jennifer Ardis was in there
20 A. And these proceedings. 20 or not. I'm not sure. I know that sounds
21 Q. The March 1st meeting, you didn't 21 crazy, there were so many meetings we've had in
22 know that there had been this inner 22 there that they run together.
23 communication between Spencer and Arthur Orr? 23 Q. I know. And I'm not trying to do
Page 181 Page 183
1 a trick question. 1 criminal that was done by Spencer Collier?
2 A. Right. 2 A. At that --
3 Q. Just your best recollection. 3 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
4 A. That's the ones I feel confident 4 A. At that date, I did not know.
5 I can say were there. I know Michael, myself, 5 Q. Okay. And April Bickhaus hadn't
6 and April went to see the governor, and Blake 6 even started her investigation; right?
7 was in there. 7 A. Her review, correct.
8 Q. And so April was there, even 8 Q. Her review.
9 though she hadn't begun anything on the 9 Now, I want to get you to look at
10 investigation? 10 this. This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 that I
11 A. Correct. 11 want to go through some of this with you.
12 Q. Because I know there was another 12 A. Okay.
13 time that she was brought in to kind of brief 13 Q. You don't have to read the whole
14 the governor? 14 thing, I'm just going to jump around to some of
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 it.
16 Q. And we'll talk about that later. 16 A. Okay.
17 But April was here -- The 29th she's assigned 17 Q. In here, Bickhaus, I recall,
18 to it, the 1st she is there at the meeting? 18 however you pronounce it, requested to
19 A. Yes, sir. To my recollection she 19 interview Collier, who Robinson advised her to
20 attended with us. 20 refrain from contacting Collier.
21 Q. And tell me what you told the 21 What was your advice about
22 governor. 22 interviewing Spencer?
23 A. Just basically, that after, you 23 A. At that time, not to do it as
Page 182 Page 184
1 know, reviewing Orr's statement and the other 1 well.
2 statements that had been made to me and looking 2 Q. Okay. And why was that?
3 at the documentation, that we felt there were 3 A. Well, for one reason, he just had
4 some issues with our purchasing practices and 4 back surgery and was home recovering.
5 our per diem. 5 Q. Okay.
6 Q. How did it get to the point of 6 A. And that's what he needed time to
7 going from purchasing practices to getting the 7 do.
8 attorney general involved in a criminal 8 Q. Okay. Any other reason?
9 standpoint? 9 A. That she needed to get more in
10 A. That was -- That came from the 10 depth and see exactly what she had before she
11 recommendation of April Bickhaus. 11 reached out to him.
12 Q. And so what -- Do you know what 12 Q. Okay.
13 led her to -- Was she looking for the attorney 13 A. Or anybody for that matter.
14 general to come in as an independent 14 Q. Okay. Do you know whether she
15 investigator or come in on a criminal 15 ever requested to interview Spencer?
16 investigation? 16 A. Other than what she wrote here, I
17 A. What she was instructed from the 17 do not know.
18 beginning was to review all this, look at this. 18 Q. Wouldn't you think, as a part of
19 If there are issues that come up that you feel 19 a review, that she should have interviewed
20 could -- potentially, could be criminal, we 20 Spencer?
21 want to ask an outside agency to do it. 21 A. Not necessarily, no, sir.
22 Q. And was there anything on that 22 Q. Well, there -- Well, not to even
23 date that led you to believe there was anything 23 say: Spencer, what about this purchase, to
Page 185 Page 187
1 give him an opportunity to explain it? 1 A. I think that's the date of the
2 A. Not at that time, no, sir. 2 invoice, not necessarily when the purchase was
3 Q. I mean, at any time before y'all 3 made.
4 made any decisions, wouldn't you think it would 4 Q. So you remember it now?
5 be important to know what Spencer knew and did? 5 A. I think I know what you're
6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 6 referring to. That was part of the problem, is
7 A. Well, that calls -- I mean, 7 purchases were often made and they weren't paid
8 there's not enough detail for me to answer that 8 until two or three weeks after the purchase was
9 question there. At the point, when Spencer was 9 already made, and they had to go back and get
10 first placed on medical leave, no, she's not 10 the bill paid. If I recall what you're talking
11 going to interview him, didn't need to, he was 11 about, are polo shirts from Gulf States; right?
12 recovering and recuperating. 12 Is that what you mean?
13 When he was terminated, she 13 Q. Let me ask you something else
14 didn't need to go interview him because Garrity 14 while I'm doing that. When you were secretary
15 didn't apply, he was not an employee of ALEA at 15 of ALEA, did other people have purchasing
16 that time. 16 authority?
17 Q. But for example, there -- and I 17 A. Yes, sir.
18 can show it to you -- there is a purchase 18 Q. When you were an ABI agent, did
19 contained in her exhibits and is contained in 19 other people other than Montgomery have
20 this document (indicating) about polo shirts 20 purchasing authority?
21 that were bought in different sizes, that 21 A. As far as I know, yes, sir.
22 supposedly had Spencer's name on it. Do you 22 Q. Okay. I mean, if you needed to
23 remember that document? 23 buy something, there was a procedure for you to
Page 186 Page 188
1 A. Not off -- I don't recall it. 1 go through when you were an ABI agent; right?
2 Q. Okay. 2 A. Correct.
3 A. I'm not doubting it's not in here 3 Q. And there's a procedure that
4 somewhere. 4 allows you to buy stuff at ALEA, even if it's
5 Q. I can pull it. I'm trying not to 5 not a preferred vendor?
6 waste a lot of our time doing that. 6 A. There are emergency purchases
7 But let me represent to you that 7 allowed.
8 the document, and I'll find it, was purchases 8 Q. Right.
9 made on the 26th of February. Okay? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. Correct. 10 Q. I mean, if you're in the middle
11 Q. And that it didn't have Spencer's 11 of investigating a crime and there's something
12 name on it; what it had on it was ALEA. Okay? 12 you need to buy, you didn't have to worry about
13 A. The document? 13 who was the preferred vendor in the area. If
14 Q. The document. 14 you needed to buy two-by-fours or plywood or
15 A. Okay. 15 something, there's a procedure for buying it,
16 Q. And that she apparently 16 isn't there?
17 misinterpreted what the shirts were. Okay? 17 A. Correct.
18 Well, let me ask you this way: 18 Q. Same type of thing, if there's a
19 Those purchases were made on the same day as 19 natural disaster, and we've got boots on the
20 Spencer's back surgery. 20 ground and they need to buy sand or
21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 21 two-by-fours or something, there's a procedure
22 He's already said he doesn't recall the 22 to allow the officers to purchase stuff without
23 document. 23 having to go to a preferred vendor?
Page 189 Page 191
1 A. Correct. 1 it, an accounting form that was commonly used
2 Q. That's because if a Walmart is 2 at ALEA?
3 ten miles away, but you've got a hardware store 3 A. It's my understanding this is a
4 right across the street, you don't have to 4 invoice from CCI; this is not an ALEA form.
5 drive all the way to Walmart? 5 It's my understanding that Robert Ratliff's
6 A. Correct. 6 signature on 6/23 is acknowledging receipt of
7 Q. And while you were secretary, 7 the invoice.
8 many people had purchasing authority? 8 Q. And that was ordered and
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 appropriate purchasing policy and procedures
10 Q. And it would still get assigned 10 were followed?
11 back sometimes to you as the secretary? 11 A. That is a paragraph put on here,
12 A. What was the question? 12 apparently, by CCI. You'd have to ask them
13 Q. I mean, sometimes it would be 13 about that.
14 considered by accounting purposes as a purchase 14 Q. You're saying that's not
15 by you? 15 something that accounting would do?
16 A. I'm not familiar with that. 16 A. To put this on the form?
17 Typically whoever prepares a purchase order's 17 Q. Yeah.
18 name is on it. 18 A. No, sir.
19 (Off-the-Record discussion 19 Q. Look at Number 32, where there's
20 was held.) 20 a back to it. It's another CCI. Let me make
21 MS. MAY: This is Exhibit 33 to 21 sure I'm straight: You're saying that that is
22 Spencer's? 22 something that CCI would get ALEA to sign for?
23 MR. MENDELSOHN: Yes. Y'all's 23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
Page 190 Page 192
1 Exhibit 33. 1 To the extent you know.
2 Q. Have you had a chance to look at 2 Q. Is that correct, that that's an
3 that? 3 ALEA form?
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 A. What I'm saying, my understanding
5 Q. Can I see it back for one second? 5 is, this is a CCI invoice. The signature on
6 A. (Witness complies.) 6 the bottom is indicating they've received the
7 Q. If you notice at the bottom it's 7 invoice.
8 signed by Mr. Ratliff; right? 8 Q. And that it was done --
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 appropriate purchasing policy and procedures
10 Q. And would you read for us what 10 were followed?
11 the -- there's a stamp there that he signed, 11 A. That's what that says.
12 but what is he attesting to in that? 12 Q. That means ALEA purchasing policy
13 Would you read that? 13 and procedures?
14 A. The paragraph above his 14 A. It could.
15 signature? 15 Q. You don't know?
16 Q. Yes. That stamp there. 16 A. My interpretation looking at
17 A. I hereby certify that the 17 these, is the policy and procedure was not
18 articles and/or services listed on this 18 followed.
19 document were received on 6/23/14 in the proper 19 Q. But Ratliff is saying it was?
20 condition or the kind and quantity ordered and 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 appropriate purchasing policy and procedures 21 Q. And Ratliff is one of the people
22 were followed. 22 that was complaining to you about Spencer?
23 Q. Okay. So that -- That is, I take 23 A. Correct.
Page 193 Page 195
1 Q. And his job is, if policies and 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 procedures were not followed or it wasn't an 2 Q. I'll just have to look at this
3 appropriate purchase, to not approve it. Isn't 3 during a break.
4 that what the accountants are supposed to do? 4 In April's detail of her report,
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 do you see where she notes that it was standard
6 Q. But he approved at least those 6 procedure to interview accused employees?
7 two? 7 A. Yes, I see that.
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Do you agree with that?
9 Q. And those are things that you 9 A. No, sir.
10 were complaining that Spencer did that was a 10 Q. You don't think she was right?
11 possible misuse of State funds? 11 A. No, sir.
12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 12 Q. And what do you base that on?
13 Q. Isn't it? 13 A. I don't know of a standard
14 A. The procedure that was done, yes, 14 procedure that dictates who and how and when
15 it was not proper. 15 you interview someone. I've been an
16 Q. Even though Ratliff, the 16 investigator for years.
17 accountant who was in charge of that, says it 17 Q. But you hadn't been an -- Had you
18 was? 18 been an investigator of employees in
19 A. That's correct. 19 administrative-type reviews?
20 Q. Okay. Did you do any -- Did you 20 A. We did what was one time called a
21 punish Ratliff or do anything to him? 21 special inquiry, that could be employees, yes.
22 A. Ratliff was terminated. 22 Q. So what you're saying here is
23 Q. For what cause? 23 Special Agent Bickhaus's comment that it was
Page 194 Page 196
1 A. Job performance. 1 standard procedures to interview accused
2 Q. Okay. Was it because he was 2 employees is wrong?
3 approving purchases he shouldn't have been? 3 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
4 A. That was part of it. 4 A. Yes, sir. No one had been
5 Q. Oh, it was? 5 accused of anything, and there's no procedure
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 that says you have to interview them.
7 Q. Who investigated him? 7 Q. Well, let's take Spencer out of
8 A. There was not an investigation 8 the picture for a second. Certainly before you
9 done on Ratliff, that I know of. 9 can discipline a merit system employee, you
10 Q. They didn't? 10 have to provide him with due process, don't
11 A. There was a disciplinary. 11 you?
12 Q. Who did the disciplinary? 12 A. That's correct.
13 A. His supervisor at that point, I 13 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
14 think, looked into it. 14 Q. And don't you always interview an
15 Q. But it would have had to come 15 employee before they're disciplined? Isn't
16 through you? 16 that standard procedure?
18 Q. I guess I can subpoena his 18 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
19 personnel file and find out exactly what you 19 Q. Did y'all interview Ratliff or
20 charged him with. 20 give him the opportunity to respond to any
21 A. Correct. 21 charges against him?
22 Q. Because you were the hiring 22 A. I do not know what took place
23 authority? 23 with -- I don't recall what took place between
Page 197 Page 199
1 he and his supervisor that made the 1 A. No, sir.
2 recommendation to me. 2 Q. So did you know what the standard
3 Q. Okay. Had you ever, before this 3 procedure was for the Integrity Unit when doing
4 time, been involved in disciplining or 4 the review of employee misconduct?
5 suspending or terminating an employee? 5 A. Yes, sir. I had the policy
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 manual to refer to.
7 Q. Is that in your role as corporal? 7 Q. Did you read it?
8 What role? 8 A. I don't recall exactly what I
9 A. As secretary -- I thought you 9 went back and read, no, sir.
10 were asking as secretary. 10 Q. Okay. And as we sit here today,
11 Q. Any -- Any position. 11 you disagree with the statement that it's
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 standard procedure to interview accused
13 Q. Okay. In what roles? 13 employees?
14 A. As secretary. 14 A. Yes, sir, I do.
15 Q. Okay. Before Spencer? 15 Q. Now, April Bickhaus reported to
16 A. As a corporal we did -- we did 16 you on this investigation; right?
17 disciplinary recommendations. 17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Okay. Did you interview the 18 Q. You'd been her direct supervisor
19 employee or talk to them before you did? 19 on it?
20 A. It would depend on what the 20 A. Correct.
21 events were. 21 Q. Didn't go up through corporals or
22 Q. Isn't that generally what is 22 lieutenants or chiefs or anything like that?
23 supposed to be done? 23 A. That's correct.
Page 198 Page 200
1 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 1 Q. Did you read it?
2 A. No, sir. I disagree with you. 2 A. Did I read what?
3 Q. Okay. Isn't that a part of due 3 Q. Her report?
4 process? 4 A. This summary?
5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Or do you know? 6 A. Yes, sir.
7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 7 Q. You didn't tell her to correct
8 A. No, sir. I disagree with you. 8 that, did you?
9 Q. Okay. When you became ALEA's 9 A. No, sir. I'm not going to tell
10 secretary, did you have any internal type of 10 her how to write her summary of her report.
11 investigation done of any other employee 11 Q. Even if she is making a false
12 besides Spencer? 12 statement in it?
14 A. There were investigations done of 14 A. That's what she wanted to put in
15 other employees. 15 there.
16 Q. Okay. Before Spencer's 16 Q. Isn't that what supervisors do,
17 investigation? 17 though, when they read reports --
19 A. Spencer was never investigated 19 Q. -- is to make corrections?
20 that I know of. 20 A. I made some typographical
21 Q. Well, let me ask it this way: 21 corrections.
22 Did you discipline or fire any employees of 22 Q. Let me ask you this way: When
23 ALEA before February 29th? 23 you were a road trooper as I say, I don't mean
Page 201 Page 203
1 it disrespectfully, I mean but the guys riding 1 Q. It also says in this meeting that
2 the roads. 2 she sought further clarification of assignment,
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 given that Collier's supervisor and employer
4 Q. When you did -- Did you do 4 was Governor Bentley. Did she make that
5 accident reports? 5 comment to you and Michael?
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 A. I remember us discussing who he
7 Q. Did accident investigations? 7 actually worked for; and it was explained to
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 her that he is an ALEA employee.
9 Q. And before those were made 9 Q. Okay. Although he worked at the
10 official, it would go up your chain of command, 10 pleasure of the governor?
11 wouldn't it? 11 A. That's correct.
12 A. Correct. 12 Q. You didn't have the authority to
13 Q. And if your corporal or sergeant 13 fire him?
14 or lieutenant thought that there was something 14 A. No, I did not.
15 wrong in it, they would tell you to correct it? 15 Q. And certainly Michael didn't or
16 A. If there was a mistake on the 16 April didn't?
17 form, we would note it and send it back to the 17 A. That's correct.
18 trooper. But in the trooper's synopsis of the 18 Q. Only the governor did?
19 accident, their opinion, I did not tell them 19 A. Only the governor, to my
20 what to write in their opinion. 20 knowledge.
21 Q. Right. 21 Q. And the governor didn't know
22 A. Even if I disagreed with it, 22 y'all were conducting this investigation until
23 that's their report and their opinion. 23 after you assigned it to April --
Page 202 Page 204
1 Q. Okay. And you never would tell 1 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
2 them to follow up or ask some other questions 2 Q. -- the following day?
3 or anything like that? 3 A. That's correct. He was notified
4 A. I may ask them to explain it to 4 then we were going to review ALEA.
5 me. 5 Q. Okay. Now, I'm not sure which --
6 Q. Okay. But if you thought it was 6 Okay. I'm going to show you something, because
7 false, you would have done something, wouldn't 7 this will be easier to look at. I'm showing
8 you? 8 you now another copy of the ALEA report, it
9 A. That's their report. 9 starts with OTG 0007. Okay?
10 Q. Okay. And so on this, when you 10 A. Uh-huh.
11 read this -- when you read it and reviewed 11 Q. And you'll notice that the third
12 it -- And you did read it and review it before 12 paragraph of Exhibit 6 includes something that
13 you sent it to the governor's office, didn't 13 is not in that other document, about the --
14 you? 14 A. The examiner's review?
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And you saw this where she said 16 A. Correct.
17 about standard procedure? 17 Q. When was that put in there?
18 A. Yes. 18 A. I'm not sure --
19 Q. And you didn't correct it, did 19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
20 you? 20 A. I'm not sure when April put that
21 A. That may be her interpretation. 21 in there.
22 I disagree with it, but, no, I did not change 22 Q. Who put it in there?
23 her summary. 23 A. April.
Page 205 Page 207
1 Q. Would that indicate to you that 1 were made after the investigation by the
2 it was added after her report was initially 2 Department of Public Accounts, did you know
3 done? 3 that?
4 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 4 A. Which complaints were made?
5 A. That would be a question for 5 Q. These in paragraph number one.
6 April. But, yes, I would assume it would have 6 A. I'm not sure I understand what
7 come after this was prepared. 7 you're asking me.
8 Q. Did you look at both of these 8 Q. If you see that the documents
9 reports? 9 were just from October 2015 through February
10 A. Yes, sir, I've looked at both. 10 2016.
11 Q. Did you do it at the time? 11 A. There was a group of documents,
12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 12 yes.
13 At what time? 13 Q. None of them dating back further
14 Q. Well, let me back up. Did you 14 than that?
15 notice the difference? That in one she's 15 A. I think there were documents
16 listing the report from the Examiner of Public 16 dating further back than that, contained in the
17 Accounts and the other one she didn't? 17 case report.
18 A. Yes, sir. I'm aware of the 18 Q. Not in the case report. I'm
19 difference between them. 19 talking about that day, the file that Michael
20 Q. Did you question her about it? 20 gave to April.
21 A. No, sir, I did not question her 21 A. I'm not sure what all was in the
22 about it. 22 file.
23 Q. Do you know why it was in one and 23 Q. Okay. It says in here, in the
Page 206 Page 208
1 not in the other? 1 first paragraph, that you asked her to conduct
2 A. You'd have to ask her. 2 an administrative review of the purchasing
3 Q. I will. But I'm just saying, as 3 processes.
4 we sit here today, you don't know? 4 A. Correct.
5 A. No, sir. 5 Q. And then to -- if there were
6 Q. If you look back up to that first 6 anything criminal, to an outside agency?
7 paragraph, it says that Robinson presented 7 A. Correct.
8 Bickhaus with the file, and it goes down and it 8 Q. Do you have any reason to believe
9 says on October of 2015 through February of 9 that there was anything criminal done by
10 2016. Did you know why it was limited to those 10 Spencer as of February 29, 2016?
11 dates? 11 A. No, sir.
12 A. No, sir, I do not. 12 Q. Were you aware that Bickhaus also
13 Q. Was that your understanding of 13 requested the opportunity to interview Governor
14 the documents that Michael had in his file were 14 Bentley?
15 just for those dates? 15 A. Yes.
16 A. I don't recall exactly what 16 Q. And was that ever allowed?
17 Michael had in the file. 17 A. If I recall correctly, she was
18 Q. Did you know that the report from 18 instructed to prepare a list of questions she
19 the Examiner of Public Accounts only went 19 had for him.
20 through October of 2015? 20 Q. Right. Do you know if they were
21 A. I'm sure I saw that in the 21 ever sent to him?
22 report. 22 A. I don't think they were. I don't
23 Q. Okay. And that these complaints 23 know for sure.
Page 209 Page 211
1 Q. Who would have been in charge of 1 Q. And may not have happened during
2 sending it to them? 2 your time, but like when the tornado hits
3 A. She would probably -- She would 3 Tuscaloosa, if the governor wants to go and
4 have been responsible for getting them to him, 4 wanted you to go --
5 whether she came through me or the legal unit 5 A. Correct.
6 or however means she saw fit to do it. 6 Q. -- you would go?
7 Q. She didn't come through you? 7 A. Correct.
8 A. No, sir. 8 Q. But you didn't feel like you had
9 Q. Do you know if she went to 9 to work eight to five?
10 Michael and asked him to submit it? 10 A. No, sir.
11 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Okay. It's just getting the job
12 Q. I think there's something in here 12 done?
13 about Michael and the questions. 13 A. No. I felt like I had a
14 A. There may be. I don't recall. 14 responsibility to be at work, yes, sir.
15 Q. Now, at least on issues of 15 Q. Yes, sir. But if you were up
16 absenteeism, don't you think it would be 16 till two or three o'clock in the morning, you
17 important to ask the governor what his policy 17 didn't feel like you had to be there at eight
18 was about absenteeism? 18 the next day?
19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 19 A. The next day? No, sir.
20 A. I'm not sure I understand your 20 Q. That's what I mean.
21 question. 21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Let me ask it a different way. 22 Q. It's doing the job.
23 A. Okay. 23 A. Correct.
Page 210 Page 212
1 Q. Obviously things about purchasing 1 Q. And, again, we're talking about a
2 items, that would be more with accountants, the 2 cabinet level official; right?
3 procedure. 3 A. Correct.
4 A. Correct. 4 Q. When you were appointed to that
5 Q. But as far as accusations in here 5 position, did Governor Bentley explain what
6 about Spencer being absent from work, wouldn't 6 your hours were?
7 it be important to know what the governor 7 A. No, sir, he did not.
8 expected of Spencer? 8 Q. Left that up to you?
9 A. Well, I would think common sense, 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 that just about anybody expects someone to come 10 Q. As long as you were doing the
11 to work if they've got a job. 11 job?
12 Q. Yeah. But it's not an 12 A. Correct.
13 eight-to-five job, is it? 13 Q. And so the fact that Spencer may
14 A. No, sir. 14 or may not have been in the office, wouldn't
15 Q. So the fact that -- I mean, when 15 that be something better explained by Governor
16 you were ALEA secretary, did you get called at 16 Bentley, as to whether that was violating what
17 night? 17 his job was -- what Spencer's job was supposed
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 to be? Do you agree with that?
19 Q. Weekends? 19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 A. I'm not sure what you're asking
21 Q. Have to go out on weekends? 21 me to agree to.
22 A. Occasionally, I think it has 22 Q. Let me ask it a different way.
23 happened. 23 There were times that you had to go over to the
Page 213 Page 215
1 legislature; right? 1 Q. Right. I'm saying prior to the
2 A. Correct. 2 one in February when you were appointed --
3 Q. There were times you had to go to 3 A. Correct.
4 meet with finance folks; right? 4 Q. And as a state employee, wasn't
5 A. Correct. 5 he allowed to take off time for his back
6 Q. You'd lobby legislators at times 6 injury?
7 about budget or whatever things? 7 A. Yes.
8 A. Correct. 8 Q. Did you ever find any information
9 Q. You would have meetings with 9 indicating that Spencer was not available by
10 other folks out of the office? 10 phone, by text, or by email when he was out?
11 A. Yes. 11 A. Did I ever find --
12 Q. You would be invited to speak at 12 Q. -- any evidence, in this
13 certain engagements? 13 investigation, your information with talking to
14 A. Correct. 14 anybody, that Spencer was not available if he
15 Q. Now, when you're doing that, you 15 was needed?
16 wouldn't be in the office? 16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
17 A. That's correct. 17 A. I can't speak for anyone but
18 Q. And that wouldn't be considered 18 myself. I never had the occasion to have to
19 absenteeism? 19 try to call him when he was out. I do know
20 A. No, sir. 20 there were several meetings I had scheduled
21 Q. Were you aware that Spencer was 21 with him that he didn't show up. Merritt would
22 out of the office because of a back problem? 22 tell me they were cancelled, but I didn't reach
23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 23 out to him.
Page 214 Page 216
1 A. I understood that to be part of 1 Q. Did you ever have to cancel any
2 the problem, yes. 2 meetings while you were ALEA secretary?
3 Q. You never -- Did you have any 3 A. Did I? Not that I recall.
4 evidence or any information to believe he was 4 Q. Okay. But my question to you
5 out playing golf? 5 again is, in the course of this investigation,
6 A. No, sir. 6 and what you reviewed from April and any other
7 Q. Or vacationing? 7 documents you reviewed, did you find anything
8 A. No, sir. 8 to suggest that Spencer was unavailable when he
9 Q. Or doing anything else but what 9 was at home or at the doctor's office for his
10 he said about being home taking pain medicine 10 back injury?
11 for a back injury? 11 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 12 A. Your definition of unavailable
13 A. No, sir. 13 would mean not --
14 Q. Were you aware that he injured 14 Q. Not available by phone, by text,
15 his back in an on-the-job car wreck? 15 or by email?
16 A. Yes, sir, I knew that. 16 A. No. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. Did you know that at the time 17 Q. And from everything you knew, is
18 this investigation was going on? 18 even when he was out, he was always available
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 by phone or by text or by email, except when he
20 Q. And you knew that the three prior 20 was undergoing surgery?
21 surgeries were all a result of that car wreck? 21 A. As far as I --
22 A. I knew he had had prior 22 Q. As far as you know?
23 surgeries. 23 A. As far as I know.
Page 217 Page 219
1 Q. Right. 1 he was working for the State of Alabama; right?
2 A. In relation to me. 2 A. My understanding he was, yes.
3 Q. Do you know what the absentee 3 Q. You don't know what hours he
4 policies were, related to any other cabinet 4 kept?
5 level official? 5 A. No.
6 A. That would be up to the governor. 6 Q. Again, that would be up to the
7 Q. Right. What was the policy of 7 governor and John?
8 Spencer as a cabinet level official before you 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 came up to take his place? 9 Q. Did you ever talk to the governor
10 A. It's my understanding, the 10 about what Spencer's job hours were supposed to
11 governor expected him to be there and do his 11 be?
12 job. 12 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
13 Q. Okay. Did you find any evidence 13 Asked and answered.
14 in this investigation that Spencer was not 14 A. No, sir.
15 doing his job? 15 Q. You didn't?
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 A. Other than what -- the comments
17 Q. What was that? 17 the governor made to me.
18 A. The fact that he was not there. 18 Q. Okay. Now -- And I'm not trying
19 I don't -- I was in that position a little over 19 to be redundant, but we did talk about earlier,
20 a year myself. 20 that on February 2, 2016, Governor Bentley
21 Q. Uh-huh. 21 stood up before the legislature and the judges
22 A. You cannot lead an agency if 22 in the state of Alabama on public TV and then
23 you're only seen two or three hours a week, 23 they put his state of the state address on the
Page 218 Page 220
1 every other week. 1 line, and he said that Spencer and ALEA were
2 Q. Even if some of that time he was 2 the most -- one of the most efficient agencies
3 out, he was meeting with legislators, at the 3 in State government. You saw that, didn't you?
4 finance department, speaking engagements, and 4 A. Yes.
5 stuff like that? 5 Q. And so as between February 17 --
6 A. There was no indication that's 6 I'm sorry, February 2, and sometime around
7 where he was at. Mr. Jenkins usually was 7 February 29, did it change where it wasn't an
8 running the agency. 8 efficient agency anymore?
9 Q. No indication that wasn't what he 9 A. He may have said that they were
10 was doing either; right? 10 the most efficient agency, but that doesn't
11 A. Correct. 11 mean they were efficient. I do not -- What I
12 Q. Do you know what John Mason's 12 saw when I got into that position, we were not
13 hours were? 13 being efficient.
14 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Okay. And that's based upon your
15 Q. He was a cabinet level official; 15 management style --
16 right? 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. I did not work with John. 17 Q. -- and being there for a week?
18 Q. I know. But you know who he was? 18 A. It was more than a week before I
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 got a good picture of what was going on.
20 Q. That was Rebekah -- or is 20 Q. Well --
21 Rebekah's husband? 21 A. But, yes, within --
22 A. Correct. 22 Q. -- by February 17th, you felt --
23 Q. And he lived in Tuscaloosa while 23 February 17th is when you went on; right?
Page 221 Page 223
1 A. As acting. 1 that?
2 Q. Yes. 2 A. No, sir.
3 A. Correct. 3 Q. Have anything to do with the
4 Q. And by February 29th, when you 4 investigation?
5 assigned April to this investigation, you felt 5 A. I don't know why she did it.
6 like the agency wasn't being run efficiently? 6 Q. Do you know why anything was put
7 A. I wasn't really sure at that 7 in there about a rumor that Spencer had a
8 point what position or condition the agency was 8 illegitimate child?
9 in, that's why the review was ordered. 9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. When you first took over, was 10 Q. Does that have anything to do
11 Spencer available to you? 11 with the investigation?
12 A. I don't -- I never called him. 12 A. I don't know why she put that in
13 Q. You never called him any? 13 there, other than it's what she was told by
14 A. (Witness shakes head in the 14 someone she interviewed.
15 negative.) 15 Q. When Spencer was fired on the
16 Q. You didn't call and ask him 16 22nd of March, had this matter already been
17 anything? 17 referred to the Attorney General's office?
18 A. No, sir. Not that I recall. 18 A. The ALEA?
19 Q. I'm not going to go over 19 Q. Yes.
20 everything in that report, but I do want to ask 20 A. I don't know. I'd have to look
21 you about a couple of things. 21 back, reflect on dates.
22 On page 40 it was noted that when 22 Q. Let me back up and get you to
23 y'all were cleaning out Spencer's desk, there 23 look at something I want you to look at. I'll
Page 222 Page 224
1 was a prescription for Nucynta. 1 show you what is Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 8.
2 A. Yes, sir, I see that. 2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Do you know why that was put in 3 Q. Now, this appears to be an email
4 the report? 4 from Jennifer Ardis to several different
5 A. No, sir. 5 people, concerning a first draft of a statement
6 Q. It was an unfilled prescription; 6 for you. Do you see that, midway down?
7 right? 7 A. Yes. This appears to be an email
8 A. Correct. As far as I know it was 8 from Rebekah to Jennifer. And then I see here
9 unfilled. 9 -- I -- Just in looking at this, it's my
10 Q. What you saw was a prescription? 10 understanding this was probably an email
11 A. Correct. 11 (indicating), and this was a reply (indicating)
12 Q. It wasn't like an empty bottle of 12 to an email.
13 pills? 13 Q. Right. That's what I'm saying.
14 A. Correct. It was a written 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 prescription. 15 Q. And I'm sorry I didn't make that
16 Q. Okay. And then April went on to 16 out right. But Jennifer is emailing folks
17 investigate the address of where Spencer lived 17 saying based upon the meeting in the governor's
18 based on that bottle. Are you aware of that? 18 office, that was the first draft?
19 Do you know if she looked at the 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 address to see if Spencer really lived at that 20 Q. Were you on this email chain?
21 address? 21 A. I don't recall if I was on it or
22 A. I've read that in this summary. 22 if, at that time, Anna Morris would probably
23 Q. Do you know why she was doing 23 have received it.
Page 225 Page 227
1 Q. Was it your idea to give a press 1 Q. And it says -- Looking at the one
2 release or was that something that somebody 2 Ms. Mason gave -- and that's the one y'all
3 else decided to do? 3 eventually provided to the press, isn't it?
4 A. I think it was sort of decided as 4 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
5 a whole, me, our PIO folks, the governor's 5 Q. If we have to pull one, we can;
6 press folks, to respond to the article that had 6 but I believe so too.
7 come out. 7 But it says in there: Last week
8 Q. What article had come out? 8 as acting secretary of Alabama Law Enforcement
9 A. I was thinking this was in 9 Agency, I ordered a thorough internal review of
10 reference to the Monday Massacre article. 10 operations, policies, and procedures at ALEA.
11 Q. I can't represent anything to you 11 Do you see that?
12 about this Internet stuff. I do show that at 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 the bottom of the Monday Massacre report, it 13 Q. That's not actually correct, is
14 shows a date of March 2, 2016. And, again, I 14 it?
15 can't represent to you that that's the date of 15 A. No, sir. I did not give that
16 it, but -- 16 order until the day prior to this email.
17 A. And I don't think it was. I 17 Q. Okay. So what Rebekah Mason
18 think that's the date this was printed. 18 changed was not correct. The statement you
19 Q. Okay. Do you -- Well, it 19 ultimately provided, based upon Ms. Mason's
20 wouldn't have been printed on the same day that 20 changes, was not a correct statement?
21 you fired those folks, would it? 21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 22 Q. Was it?
23 A. No. 23 A. Correct.
Page 226 Page 228
1 Q. So the earliest it would have 1 Q. Okay.
2 been is on the 1st? 2 MR. SEGALL: Kenny, can I see
3 A. Yes, sir. To my knowledge. 3 that, if you're finished with it?
4 Q. But you knew by that time that 4 MR. MENDELSOHN: Yeah.
5 Bill Britt was looking into it, whether the 5 MR. SEGALL: We're about to run
6 article had come out or not? 6 out of time.
7 A. Yes, sir. We had received calls. 7 MR. MENDELSOHN: Do y'all want to
8 Q. And a decision was made to issue 8 take a break? We've been going a while now.
9 a press statement? 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
10 A. Yes. 10 the Record at 3:05 p.m.
11 Q. Did you participate in the 11 (Recess taken.)
12 wording in the press statement? 12 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins disk
13 A. Yes, sir. 13 number four in the deposition of Stan Stabler.
14 Q. If you'll look at it, according 14 We're back on the Record at 3:30 p.m.
15 to this, Ms. Mason did make some changes; 15 Q. While April was conducting this
16 right? She says my minor -- 16 investigation, was she reporting back to you or
17 A. -- edits, yes, sir. 17 in any way communicating with you about the
18 Q. Now, the original one started off 18 investigation, either email, text, the report
19 saying: As the new acting secretary. 19 itself?
20 A. Correct. 20 A. We would occasionally talk. But,
21 Q. And at the top it says last week 21 no, sir. I gave her free range to do what she
22 as acting secretary? 22 needed to do to do the review. If I ran into
23 A. Correct. 23 her, I may say, hey, how are things going. If
Page 229 Page 231
1 she had a question about something, or -- you 1 Spencer was going to be fired?
2 know, she may ask me. I don't recall anything 2 A. I don't know if it was two days
3 in particular. We would talk, but nothing 3 prior -- It was when they were preparing the
4 regular or scheduled. 4 letters, I think, to send. The possibility of
5 Q. Okay. Do you know if what 5 a resignation letter.
6 ultimately became the report, if that was 6 Q. Were you made aware that Bentley
7 something she was working on and adding to it 7 was going to give Spencer the opportunity to
8 or do you know? 8 resign?
9 A. This was the summary. The case 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 report, case file itself, I think is about 10 Q. But by that date, without getting
11 seven or eight volumes. So this is something 11 into the details again, just trying to speed it
12 she -- I don't know if she was composing it as 12 up, there were several articles that had come
13 she was doing her investigation or if she sat 13 out about an investigation going on and
14 down and did it all at one time. I do not 14 possible misuse of state funds by that time?
15 know. 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So this document that we're 16 Q. And so from your point of view,
17 referring to as Exhibit 6 is just the summary 17 would you acknowledge that if you had to retire
18 of her report? 18 under those circumstances, it would be under a
19 A. The summary of the investigation, 19 cloud for Spencer to have retired?
20 yes, sir. 20 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
21 Q. When was the first time you saw 21 Q. The public had already been told
22 any semblance of something like this? 22 by ALEA and by the governor that they were
23 A. I'm trying to -- Probably a week 23 investigating the procedures at ALEA; right?
Page 230 Page 232
1 or two before it was turned over to the 1 A. That's correct.
2 governor's legal unit. 2 Q. Okay. Were you made aware by
3 Q. And that was like several months 3 anybody at ALEA that Spencer was on medical
4 later, wasn't it? 4 leave, and before his surgery he had a meeting
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 with Matt Hart, Vann Davis, and two of their
6 Q. I want to say August. I don't 6 investigators up in Prattville?
7 remember, but I think it was August, September, 7 A. I heard Spencer testify to that
8 or something? 8 in his deposition.
9 A. I think you're probably right, 9 Q. Okay. But nobody reported that
10 yes, sir, somewhere in that time frame. 10 to you when you were acting secretary?
11 Q. So as far as you know, what was 11 A. No, sir.
12 going on with the investigation would just be 12 Q. Do you know if any -- You
13 more talking to her occasionally? 13 wouldn't know who, if anybody, had followed
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 Spencer or had him tailed or anything like that
15 Q. Okay. How about between February 15 to know about that being done?
16 29th and March 22, when Spencer was fired, how 16 A. I have no knowledge of that being
17 much -- I mean, did you see any report then? 17 done, no, sir.
18 A. No, sir. I just had seen some 18 Q. Okay. When Governor Bentley made
19 documentation that we had looked at accounting. 19 the decision on the 22nd to fire Spencer, was
20 Q. Did you recommend to Robert 20 there a report or any part of this report done
21 Bentley that Spencer should be fired? 21 by April?
22 A. No, sir. 22 A. I do not know.
23 Q. When did you find out that 23 Q. Had you seen anything?
Page 233 Page 235
1 A. No, sir. 1 fact, I was at a T-ball game when I got a phone
2 Q. Had you reviewed any of her 2 call about six o'clock that night about it.
3 report or statements or anything like that? 3 Q. Was that a true statement by
4 A. I don't think I had reviewed any 4 Governor Bentley?
5 really written documents. I know we had talked 5 MS. MAYS: You mean the whole
6 some, April and I, but I don't think I'd 6 press release?
7 reviewed anything. 7 MR. MENDELSOHN: No. The part
8 Q. Had it been turned over to the 8 attributed to Stan.
9 attorney general by that time? 9 A. The part attributed to me? Yes,
10 A. I don't remember the date it was 10 sir.
11 referred to the Attorney General's office. 11 Q. Okay. And is that something that
12 Q. I can find the article, but as I 12 you had told the governor, that you had done a
13 recall it, your statement -- You gave a 13 thorough internal review?
14 statement, or a press release, on the day that 14 A. I know that I told him we were
15 Spencer was fired, did you not? 15 doing a review.
16 A. I would have to reflect back. I 16 Q. You didn't provide him with any
17 don't recall if it was on that date or not. 17 documentation this day or the two to three days
18 Q. I'll try to find it. And I'll 18 before, did you?
19 just come back to it, I'll make a note. 19 A. No, sir. Not that I recall.
20 Do you recall any statement going 20 Q. Do you recall what you told him
21 out such as after a thorough investigation, the 21 and when you told him?
22 ALEA unit or Integrity Unit found possible 22 A. I just know that we told him
23 misuse of state funds? 23 about the concerns we had about per diem,
Page 234 Page 236
1 A. Yes, I do recall statements that 1 purchasing, weapons. We expressed some of our
2 made reference to possible misuse of funds. 2 concerns.
3 Q. And that it was being turned over 3 Q. Okay.
4 to the Attorney General's office? 4 A. I don't recall the exact date.
5 A. I don't recall if it said in that 5 Q. At that time, did you -- And I'm
6 statement the Attorney General's office or just 6 asking you as trained and a very experienced
7 to the proper authorities. 7 investigator, did you have probable cause to
8 Q. Let's find it, because I want to 8 believe that Spencer Collier had committed a
9 get that right. 9 crime?
10 A. Yes, sir. I don't recall what it 10 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
11 said without looking at it. 11 A. As I stated earlier, the one
12 Q. Yeah. And, again, I'm not trying 12 thing that stuck out to me, I felt, was that --
13 to trick you. 13 that I thought was problematic would be the
14 A. Oh, I know. 14 travel form being used the way it was used.
15 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 7, and 15 Q. And was that travel for Spencer?
16 that is a press release from the governor's 16 A. It was a travel form signed by
17 office. 17 Spencer, yes, sir.
18 Now, that one is not actually 18 Q. But, I mean, was it for his
19 attributable to you, that's Governor Bentley? 19 travel?
20 A. Correct. Yes, sir. 20 A. No, sir. It was for his
21 Q. Okay. Did you know he was going 21 sunglasses.
22 to say that? 22 Q. And did you believe that that was
23 A. No, sir. I had no idea. In 23 a crime?
Page 237 Page 239
1 A. I do, yes, sir. 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And is that what you turned over 2 Q. Who, other than April Bickhaus,
3 to the Attorney General's office? 3 was involved in the review?
4 A. I didn't turn anything over to 4 A. There were other agents assigned
5 the Attorney General's office. Special Agent 5 to that unit, I think assisted her with a
6 Bickhaus, I don't know what all she turned over 6 couple minor things: Chris Radcliff was a
7 to them. She was completely in charge of the 7 sergeant. I can't think of the other guy's
8 investigation to investigate and review. 8 name.
9 Q. So you don't know what she 9 Q. That would have been her
10 provided to the Attorney General's office? 10 supervisor, was it not?
11 A. I don't know exactly all, no, 11 A. No, sir, it was not. She was the
12 sir. 12 supervisor.
13 Q. Let me show you what was 13 Q. Okay. She was supervisor of the
14 Defendant's 17. And that appears to be two 14 Integrity Unit?
15 different press statements attributable to you, 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 one on March 1 and one on March 22. 16 Q. What other agents were assigned
17 (Off-the-Record discussion 17 to the Integrity Unit?
18 was held.) 18 A. Radcliff; there is another guy
19 Q. Have you read those? 19 that came over from another agency, I do not
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 recall his name.
21 Q. And those are statements coming 21 Q. Do you know what Radcliff's rank
22 out of ALEA, attributable to you? 22 was?
Page 238 Page 240
1 Q. Did you write those yourself? 1 Q. And what was that?
2 A. No, sir. 2 A. Sergeant.
3 Q. Who wrote those? 3 Q. And what was April?
4 A. Anna Morris. 4 A. She was a special agent in charge
5 Q. Do you know if anybody else 5 of the unit.
6 participated in them? 6 Q. And in the rank of ALEA, which
7 A. I do not know. 7 one is higher, the sergeant or the special
8 Q. Did you review them before they 8 agent?
9 went out? 9 A. The supervisor special agent.
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. So she, in the chain of command,
11 Q. And were those, in your opinion; 11 Radcliff -- Radcliff was under her?
12 correct? 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 A. Yes, sir. I okayed for them to 13 Q. Did you change that when you came
14 be put out. 14 in?
15 Q. Going back to the March 1, and 15 A. No, sir. It was already that
16 I'm going to have to pass it back and forth 16 way. And I -- It was testified before in a
17 with you. 17 previous deposition incorrectly. April was a
18 A. That's okay. 18 supervisor. She was a supervisor when I became
19 Q. But I'm going to read it and let 19 acting secretary. She remained a supervisor
20 you look at it again. It says: ALEA's 20 while I was there.
21 Integrity Unit comprised of seasoned law 21 Q. And Radcliff was assigned to the
22 enforcement investigators is currently 22 Integrity Unit?
23 conducting the review. 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 241 Page 243
1 Q. Okay. And her rank was what? 1 completed?
2 A. I think she is supervisory 2 A. No, sir.
3 special agent. 3 Q. Once the investigation -- Once
4 Q. And when you say you think, do 4 Spencer was fired, why did ALEA continue to
5 you know that for sure -- 5 investigate Spencer?
6 A. No, sir. 6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
7 Q. -- that's your best recollection 7 A. We were not investigating
8 of that? 8 Spencer, we were reviewing ALEA. So we
9 A. Best recollection. 9 reviewed all the problems that occurred at ALEA
10 Q. Okay. In the March 22nd one, it 10 under his administration.
11 says ALEA's Integrity Unit conducted a thorough 11 Q. Your position, as we sit here
12 internal review of the operations, policies, 12 today, was this was not an investigation of
13 and procedures of the agency. Had -- Had the 13 Spencer Collier?
14 investigation been completed? 14 A. Exactly.
15 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Let me go over a few things in
16 Q. Do you know what all had been 16 that regard. Who else -- You were just
17 done by that time? 17 investigating the whole department?
18 A. No, sir. 18 A. Yes, sir. We were reviewing our
19 Q. Did you make any effort to turn 19 procedures, ALEA, as a whole.
20 over information to Governor Bentley around the 20 Q. So you're coming in as an acting
21 19th, 20th, 22nd of March? 21 secretary of ALEA; right?
22 A. I had made the decision to brief 22 A. Correct.
23 the governor. I don't know that we turned 23 Q. With full expectations that you
Page 242 Page 244
1 anything over to the governor. 1 were only going to be there for a temporary
2 Q. Do you remember when, the last 2 period of time?
3 time you briefed him before March 22nd? 3 A. Yes.
4 A. No, sir, I do not recall. 4 Q. And on your own, you decided to
5 Q. Do you know how you found out -- 5 conduct an investigation of the entire ALEA
6 Do you remember how you found out that the 6 procedures?
7 governor was going to fire Spencer? I know you 7 A. I made the decision to review
8 said something about the letters going out. 8 ALEA's policies, procedures, and our operation
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 practices, yes, sir.
10 Q. Had y'all discussed the status of 10 Q. Okay.
11 the investigation as of that date? 11 A. If I'm going to be in charge of
12 A. Other than me updating him, it 12 the agency, I want it done right. I want to
13 was to some of the things that we had found. 13 know that it's being done right.
14 Q. Do you remember what you updated 14 Q. Even if Spencer was going to be
15 him, and when was the last update? 15 coming back in, say, a month, six weeks?
16 A. I do not recall when the last 16 A. When he's in charge, it's his
17 update was. 17 agency; when I was in charge, I'm responsible
18 Q. But the investigation was not 18 for what happened under my watch.
19 completed? 19 Q. Okay. Now, let me go over a
20 A. That's correct. 20 couple of things, and you can look at -- The
21 Q. Do you know, or did he express to 21 first paragraph talks about y'all are going to
22 you, why he was going to go ahead and fire 22 investigate any violation of proper purchasing
23 Spencer even though the investigation was not 23 procedures by Collier and subordinates; right?
Page 245 Page 247
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 A. I don't know of anyone else
2 Q. Then that would not be criminal, 2 getting paid for sunglasses other than our
3 if procedures were violated? 3 aviation unit and marine police.
4 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Right.
5 Q. And by the way, you keep talking 5 A. They're issued.
6 about sunglasses, let's just go ahead and throw 6 Q. You do know that -- At least you
7 that out. On Exhibit 29, that's referring to 7 heard Spencer's testimony, that his personal
8 the sunglasses? 8 sunglasses got broke while he was protecting
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 the governor?
10 Q. Are you saying that Spencer 10 A. Yes, sir, I heard that testimony.
11 signed page two? 11 Q. And you think -- If that is true,
12 A. I'm saying it has a signature on 12 okay, do you think it's improper for him to be
13 here, yes, sir. 13 reimbursed for a pair of sunglasses?
14 Q. But you don't know whether he 14 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
15 actually signed it or not? 15 A. This way, yes, sir.
16 A. I don't know if he signed it, no, 16 Q. I'm not talking about that way.
17 sir. 17 I'm just talking about generally.
18 Q. Do people have your signature 18 A. Yes, sir, there are ways to go
19 authority? 19 about doing that.
20 A. Yes, sir, they did. But also 20 Q. And what happened is, and what
21 know that you've only got two of the four 21 you're complaining about, is the form that was
22 documents on that list. 22 used?
23 Q. What do the other two say? 23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
Page 246 Page 248
1 A. The copy of the check that was 1 A. Yes, sir, the manner in which it
2 made payable to Jack S. Collier. 2 was done.
3 Q. A check to him? 3 Q. And you don't know that Spencer
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 filled out that form?
5 Q. To reimburse him? 5 A. No, sir.
6 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. So as we sit here today, you
7 Q. Yes, sir. But that doesn't still 7 can't say that Spencer himself committed a
8 mean that Spencer used the wrong form. I mean, 8 crime because of that form on Exhibit 29, can
9 that is -- I may have misunderstood you, Stan. 9 you?
10 But as I understand, your big beef about that 10 A. No, sir. All I can give you is
11 seeking reimbursement was because it was on a 11 my opinion.
12 travel form? 12 Q. Right. But you didn't check with
13 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 13 Spencer?
14 A. Yes, sir. I have -- I have 14 A. No, sir.
15 concerns about this right here (indicating). 15 Q. Did you or April, Michael,
16 Q. Okay. Do you think it was 16 anybody, try to determine who signed that?
17 improper for Spencer to get reimbursed for 17 A. No, sir. Not to my knowledge. I
18 those sunglasses? 18 didn't.
19 A. In my opinion, it was improper 19 Q. Okay. And so that's the thing
20 for him to get reimbursed the way he did. 20 that you've been talking about today, about the
21 Q. But the actual getting reimbursed 21 crime has been using a travel voucher form to
22 for the sunglasses, you don't have a problem 22 get reimbursed for sunglasses?
23 with? 23 A. You asked me earlier had I seen
Page 249 Page 251
1 anything that I thought was potentially 1 went with it, that was purchased for him for
2 criminal. 2 his birthday, you read that in the report?
3 Q. Uh-huh. 3 A. I read that, yes, sir.
4 A. And this was the first issue or 4 Q. Do you think that was a crime by
5 the issue that came to my mind when you asked 5 Spencer?
6 me that question. 6 A. I think it's improper use. I
7 Q. Okay. But for it to be criminal 7 didn't say it was a crime.
8 for Spencer, he would have had to sign that 8 Q. Not by Spencer, by the people who
9 form, wouldn't he? 9 charged it back to ALEA?
10 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 10 A. Correct. Whoever did it. That's
11 A. It's my opinion that it's fraud. 11 what the review was, to look at whoever was
12 His signature on it, the form that was used, 12 improperly using funds --
13 check made payable to him, he got the money. 13 Q. Did you find out who did it?
14 It was not travel. 14 A. -- in regard to Spencer.
15 Q. Right. 15 I did not, no, sir.
16 A. Yes, sir. That's my opinion. 16 Q. Did you punish anybody for doing
17 Q. Right. And if a different form 17 it?
18 had been used, it would have been okay? 18 A. No, sir.
19 A. It would have been a whole 19 Q. Did you release anybody else's
20 different situation, yes, sir. 20 name to the media as doing anything like
21 Q. Okay. Then in this ALEA report, 21 this --
22 and you can go through it with me, April 22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
23 investigated envelopes and letterheads? 23 Q. -- other than Spencer?
Page 250 Page 252
1 A. That was one of the things I 1 A. I didn't release Spencer's name
2 think she looked at and notated, yes, sir. 2 to the media.
3 Q. Okay. And then purchases prior 3 Q. On page nine she refers to --
4 to funds being allocated? 4 page six, I'm sorry. She made a notation of
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 buying certain clothes with various sizes.
6 Q. Both of those were related to 6 A. I'm not sure. Where you at?
7 Spencer; right? 7 Q. I'm not either. This is just my
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 notes.
9 Q. The purchase of the fifteen 9 MS. MAYS: It's that last
10 pants, Kitanica pants and fleece without a 10 paragraph.
11 purchase order, that was investigated? 11 A. Let me see. Yeah.
12 A. It was noted, yes, sir. 12 Q. The fact that various sizes were
13 Q. But that's not a crime? 13 bought, wouldn't that indicate to you that
14 A. No, sir. 14 those were not bought for Spencer's personal
15 Q. Buying a six-hundred-dollar 15 use?
16 jacket, do you know what the jacket was? 16 A. Yes, sir. Possibly bought for
17 A. I just know of the brand name; I 17 other folks, yes.
18 have no idea what it looks like or what it is. 18 Q. Did you check into that?
19 Q. Would that be a crime by Spencer 19 A. I didn't.
20 to purchase one? 20 Q. Did you tell April to look into
21 A. Not a crime, no, sir. 21 it?
22 Q. We talked about the Ray-Bans. 22 A. Apparently April checked into it.
23 The briefcase and all the little goodies that 23 Q. Did she find out who got the
Page 253 Page 255
1 cloths? 1 A. No, sir.
2 A. I don't know, in what she wrote 2 Q. Not even possibly a crime?
3 here. 3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Nothing was put in there about 4 Q. There's a mention about a bunch
5 these weren't for Spencer's personal use? 5 of guns in there. Do you recall April saying
6 A. Correct. 6 that several different guns were purchased by
7 Q. And there was a point in there 7 Spencer?
8 about -- I'm looking at page nine, about 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 jackets -- the jackets that were bought from 9 Q. And attributed to him?
10 Dick's? 10 A. Correct.
11 A. You said jackets bought from 11 Q. All of those were or turned up,
12 Dick's? 12 though. I mean, there wasn't any guns --
13 Q. I think they were like wind 13 personal guns of his that he bought, like, for
14 breakers or something, is what I recall. 14 hunting or family members or anything like
15 A. I see a notation in here about 15 that?
16 Dick's, but I don't see a notation of what was 16 A. As far as I know, all the weapons
17 purchased. 17 were turned in.
18 Q. Okay. Do you recall anything, 18 Q. Then there was looking into APOST
19 then -- not trying to speak for you, but do you 19 certification?
20 recall anything about there being jackets 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 bought at Dick's and Robert saying that they 21 Q. Do you know how that came about?
22 weren't appropriate purchases? 22 A. That's something April did.
23 A. I don't recall exactly what was 23 Q. Do you know what prompted her to
Page 254 Page 256
1 purchased from Dick's. I do remember the 1 just suddenly start looking into whether
2 statement here that Robert Radcliff made 2 Spencer was legitimately APOST certified?
3 reference they were not proper -- or he didn't 3 A. No, sir. I recall her bringing
4 think it should have been purchased. But I 4 that to my attention.
5 don't know what was purchased. 5 Q. What did you say?
6 Q. But first of all, if it shouldn't 6 A. Because she had been told, you
7 have been purchased, then accounting's 7 know, if you see something that you think is
8 responsibility is to deny it, and they didn't. 8 potentially going to be a violation or
9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 9 something, that's when we were talking about
10 Q. I mean, if there's -- if a person 10 making a referral. And I do recall her telling
11 at ALEA goes out and purchases something that's 11 me that she felt like he'd used his office for
12 improper, accounting is supposed to note that 12 personal gain.
13 and not approve it? 13 Q. Because of the APOST
14 A. The cases here that we have 14 certification?
15 talked about are purchases that were made, the 15 A. Self -- Appointing himself and
16 merchandise taken, weeks, months, later, ALEA 16 getting the subsistence pay that goes with it,
17 gets the bill, they have to pay the bill. 17 yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Do you know whether 18 Q. Did you know that by statute that
19 Spencer bought those jackets or authorized? 19 the ALEA secretary is a law enforcement
20 A. On this particular, I do not 20 officer?
21 personally know. 21 A. The ALEA secretary is, yes, sir.
22 Q. So you can't say that that was a 22 Q. And he was ALEA secretary?
23 crime? 23 A. I think the time frame she was
Page 257 Page 259
1 talking about, he was not the secretary at that 1 we had, I think, in excess of twenty
2 time. 2 assistant-director-appointed positions, and we
3 Q. Well, before that he was Homeland 3 were going to weed that down. Camilla was in
4 Security director? 4 one of those positions. I did not see a
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 beneficial job that she was doing for ALEA.
6 Q. And the governor approved him 6 Like I said, we were eliminating positions that
7 being a law enforcement officer? 7 we did not see a benefit or necessary.
8 A. The governor appointed him as 8 Q. Were you aware that some of those
9 Homeland Security director. 9 positions were done at the request of the
10 Q. You don't know that the governor 10 governor?
11 approved him to be a law enforcement officer? 11 A. I didn't ask him, the governor.
12 A. No. The law did not allow that 12 It was my job to come in there and run ALEA as
13 appointment, yourself as state law enforcement 13 I saw fit. We were extremely shorthanded on
14 officer. 14 troopers, and what we were spending on
15 Q. What's that? 15 appointed director positions would easily pay
16 A. It was my understanding the law 16 for several trooper salaries.
17 did not allow the Homeland Security director to 17 Q. Who else did you terminate from
18 appoint himself as a state law enforcement 18 those positions, besides Camilla?
19 officer. 19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
20 Q. But if the governor approved him? 20 Go ahead.
21 A. I don't think the law allowed 21 A. We eliminated that position --
22 that. 22 When we dismissed J.T. Jenkins, he was a
23 Q. Even if the governor approved it? 23 part-time employee, but he was functioning as
Page 258 Page 260
1 A. Correct. 1 the number two type guy. Kevin White was moved
2 Q. And even if Personnel approved 2 into that position, but he was already a
3 it? 3 current employee. So we eliminated that
4 A. Correct. 4 position. We eliminated J.T. Howell's
5 Q. So if the governor approved it 5 position. I'm trying to think. There were
6 and Jackie Green approved it, they were acting 6 other positions that we eliminated. I don't
7 improperly? 7 recall them off the top of my head.
8 A. They would have to have created a 8 Q. But by eliminating J.T., you were
9 classified -- classification for state law 9 -- you were eliminating a part-time employee
10 enforcement for that position. 10 whose salary was limited.
11 Q. And how do you know that? 11 MR. SEGALL: Object to the form.
12 A. Under Personnel rules. 12 Q. Isn't that right? I mean, his
13 Q. Are you familiar with the 13 salary was thirty thousand a year, or
14 immigration statute? 14 something?
15 A. I have read -- I've seen it. 15 A. Plus what he claimed in per diem,
16 Q. Do you know what authority it 16 yes, sir.
17 gives to the director of Homeland Security? 17 Q. Okay. But with all this savings
18 A. Not -- No, sir. I can't sit here 18 you did, you still had to request sixty more
19 and tell you I do. 19 million dollars for the department?
20 Q. Why did you fire Camilla? 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 A. I eliminated that position. 21 Q. So complaints about a part-time
22 Q. Why did you do that? 22 employee or a assistant director, that didn't
23 A. Because we -- When I took over, 23 solve the problem about getting more state
Page 261 Page 263
1 troopers, did it? 1 position?
2 A. No, sir, it did not solve the 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 problem. 3 Q. And if the governor told you to
4 Q. Okay. And do you know who all 4 put this person as assistant director of
5 else was on -- who was classified as an 5 Homeland Security, what would you have done?
6 assistant director at that time? Did you look 6 A. We would have had to discuss
7 and see? 7 it --
8 A. Yes, sir. At one time I did, I 8 Q. Okay.
9 looked at the list. 9 A. -- depending on where the money
10 Q. Was David Byrne still an 10 was coming from.
11 assistant director of Homeland Security? 11 Q. But otherwise, you're saying you
12 A. No, sir. 12 would have told him we can't do that?
13 Q. Did you know he was at one time? 13 A. Yes, sir. I was trying to
14 A. No, sir. 14 streamline things.
15 Q. Okay. Did you know that -- I 15 Q. Other than the method of
16 think the Medicare agency head was classified 16 purchasing of sunglasses, what is it that you
17 as assistant director of Homeland Security. 17 believe that Spencer Collier did that
18 Did you know that? 18 constituted a crime?
19 A. Not when I was there. The only 19 A. I do not know exactly what was
20 one I recall outside of ALEA was John 20 presented to the grand jury. I haven't sat
21 Barganier, and we had that taken off. 21 before and had it all presented to me. But
22 Q. Okay. And that was Governor 22 from what I've read, there were a few things
23 Bentley's -- an employee in his office; right? 23 that I would consider to be potentially
Page 262 Page 264
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 criminal.
2 Q. And he was being paid or listed 2 Q. Okay. What are those?
3 as assistant director of Homeland Security; 3 A. The use of office for personal
4 right? 4 gain that April documented and mentioned.
5 A. Correct. 5 Q. What were the instances of using
6 Q. And he didn't do any Homeland 6 his office for personal gain?
7 Security functions? 7 A. The self-appointment, state law
8 A. No, sir. 8 enforcement officer to draw the subsistence and
9 Q. And did you know that that came 9 the --
10 as a direct order from Governor Bentley? 10 Q. When he was Homeland Security?
11 A. I'm not sure who the order came 11 A. Correct.
12 from. I just know that when we discovered it, 12 Q. What else?
13 we met with him, and he was moved to somebody 13 A. As I mentioned, the travel
14 else's agency or budget. 14 voucher.
15 Q. Right. 15 Q. Okay. What else?
16 A. But he came off of ALEA. 16 A. Those are the main ones that come
17 Q. Okay. And I don't disagree with 17 to my mind.
18 you that that should have been done, but that 18 Q. Any other ones you can think of?
19 was not Spencer hiring him to be a Homeland 19 A. No, sir, not at this time.
20 Security director, was it? 20 Q. So the two things that concerned
21 A. Correct. 21 you, just make sure I'm right on this, was the
22 Q. That would have been Governor 22 fact that somebody signed his name to a travel
23 Bentley asking that he be placed in that 23 voucher to get reimbursed for sunglasses,
Page 265 Page 267
1 that's one of them? 1 biased. It's not a good practice to police
2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 2 your own agency. That's why the referral.
3 A. That's one of the things that 3 Q. When you turn -- When you
4 concerned me, yes. 4 referred this out to the Attorney General's
5 Q. And the other one was the 5 office, did you provide them any documentation?
6 self-appointment to the position -- to a law 6 A. I do not know what all
7 enforcement position? 7 documentation was provided to them; April would
8 A. That was another. But that's not 8 have handled that. I do recall, as I said, a
9 all that concerned me. 9 letter from Luther Strange requesting certain
10 Q. What are the other ones that 10 documents. I do not know what those documents
11 concerned you about possible crimes? 11 were, but they were given to the Attorney
12 A. A possible criminal element, 12 General's office.
13 those are the two I can think of right now. 13 Q. Was this report ever given to the
14 But I was concerned about the whole operation 14 Attorney General's office?
15 of ALEA. 15 A. I didn't ever give it to them. I
16 Q. I understand that. And your 16 would think so, but I do not know for a fact.
17 management style, or what you were trying to do 17 Q. Would you have reviewed it before
18 to streamline it, may be different from 18 it went?
19 Spencer's. Okay? But you ultimately made the 19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
20 decision that this matter be referred to the 20 A. I don't know exactly when April
21 attorney general. 21 finished it and if she gave it to them.
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Okay. And the only time you
23 Q. And the only two things that you 23 reviewed it, from start to finish, was shortly
Page 266 Page 268
1 felt were possible crimes was the travel 1 -- was when the governor's office requested it?
2 voucher for the sunglasses and the appointment 2 A. Correct.
3 to law enforcement officer -- self-appointment 3 Q. Did you or anybody in your office
4 while he was director of Homeland Security; 4 relate to the governor's office that that was a
5 those are the only two things that you can 5 public record?
6 think of that were even possibly crimes? 6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
7 A. I made the recommendations based 7 MR. SEGALL: It was what?
8 on the investigator's request. 8 MR. MENDELSOHN: A public record.
9 Q. So it was April's decision to 9 A. No, sir. I didn't. I can't
10 turn it over to the attorney general? 10 speak for anyone else. Not to my knowledge.
11 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 11 Q. I'm looking on page 130, and you
12 A. It was my decision to use the 12 can look at it too. On line 16, Governor
13 Attorney General's office. 13 Bentley said they would not produce anything
14 Q. What crimes did she report to you 14 that was not public record. And then I asked
15 that you believed he did? 15 him the question, when and how did the ALEA
16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 16 report become public record? His answer was:
17 A. I did not sit down and ask her to 17 It was asked for because it was -- ALEA says it
18 -- This was not a criminal investigation, nor 18 was public record. That was Governor Bentley's
19 have I ever accused anyone of committing a 19 testimony.
20 crime. She was instructed to review ALEA; if 20 A. Okay.
21 she felt there was possibilities of things that 21 Q. Do you know of anybody at ALEA
22 could be criminal, that we wanted an outside 22 who told Bentley or anybody in his legal
23 agency to look at it so we didn't appear to be 23 department that was a public record?
Page 269 Page 271
1 A. Not to my knowledge. 1 but, yes, sir.
2 Q. Did you consider it to be a 2 Q. Okay. So as of that date it was
3 public record? 3 sent to Governor Bentley, did you consider the
4 A. I don't see -- 4 ALEA report to still be a protected record or
5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 5 not?
6 A. I don't see any reason it could 6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
7 not have been. It was of public concern. 7 A. No, sir, not this.
8 Q. Yeah. But before that time, 8 Q. You felt it was okay for him to
9 other people had requested the report, hadn't 9 release it?
10 they? 10 A. I didn't know he was going to
11 A. Some news media outlets had. 11 release it. But I didn't have a problem with
12 Q. And the response from ALEA always 12 us giving it to the legal unit for the
13 was that this was part of a criminal 13 governor's office.
14 investigation? 14 Q. Oh, I'm not saying to the
15 A. I think that reply had been made 15 governor. Of course he was. But for it to be
16 to some of them. I know it had been referred 16 released to the public.
17 to the Attorney General's office at that time. 17 A. This particular document is part
18 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 18 of the -- is the summary of the ALEA review.
19 Exhibit 18 was marked for 19 Q. Right. Was that a public
20 identification purposes.) 20 document as of the date that you sent it over
21 Q. Right. Just to show you what I'm 21 to the governor's office?
22 going to mark as number 18, it's a letter from 22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
23 Tim McCollum. Do you know Tim? 23 A. As far as I understand, yes.
Page 270 Page 272
1 A. Yes, sir. He's an attorney at 1 There's no privacy protection.
2 ALEA. 2 Q. Have you ever, during your time,
3 Q. And in that, part of what he's 3 either as state trooper, ABI agent, or
4 looking for is information from Spencer 4 secretary, ever released an ALEA report while
5 Collier. This isn't exactly the report, but -- 5 there was an ongoing criminal investigation?
6 A. Right. They're seeking emails in 6 A. A criminal invest- --
7 this particular request. 7 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
8 Q. Uh-huh. Right. 8 Q. Yes.
9 And one of your lawyers wrote 9 A. Criminal investigation that I was
10 back that they couldn't produce it because it 10 conducting?
11 was part of a pending criminal investigation. 11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Handed over to the Attorney 12 A. No, sir.
13 General's office and/or part of a pending 13 Q. Okay. Did this investigation at
14 criminal investigation, yes, sir. 14 all lead to termination or discipline of any
15 Q. As of the date that it was 15 other employee besides Spencer Collier?
16 sent -- the ALEA report was sent to Governor 16 A. Which investigation?
17 Bentley, the criminal investigation was still 17 Q. The -- April Bickhaus's
18 going on against Spencer. Were you aware of 18 investigation?
19 that? 19 A. The ALEA review?
20 A. With the Attorney General's 20 Q. Yes.
21 office? 21 A. Because there's an ALEA review,
22 Q. Uh-huh. 22 there's an attorney general investigation.
23 A. I'm not sure when they concluded, 23 Q. I'm talking about the ALEA.
Page 273 Page 275
1 A. Yes, sir. As I said, Robert 1 A. I do not know to what extent his
2 Ratliff was later dismissed. You've already 2 supervisor went looking into his employment. I
3 mentioned some of the firings we had, that 3 just know the recommendation I got, and I
4 didn't really depend on this. 4 signed and upheld the termination.
5 Q. Let's make sure of this: They 5 Q. Who was his supervisor?
6 were fired on the same day the investigation 6 A. Ryan Burchnell.
7 was assigned to April? 7 Q. When would this -- was Robert
8 A. Correct. Correct. Those 8 dismissed? Was it before or after Bentley
9 positions were eliminated -- Those personnel 9 released the legal report?
10 were terminated regardless if this would have 10 A. I think it was after, but I'm not
11 ever occurred or not. 11 positive.
12 Q. Exactly. 12 Q. So you don't know whether his
13 A. Correct. 13 supervisor based the decision on Bickhaus's
14 Q. So who all was terminated or 14 report or not?
15 disciplined as a result of April's 15 A. I do not know.
16 investigation? 16 Q. He wouldn't have had access to
17 A. The only one I recall is Robert 17 the report before Bentley released it, would
18 Ratliff. Jennifer Frost quit and resigned; 18 he?
19 some other people had quit, and I don't recall 19 A. He could have gone down and
20 any disciplinary action taken on them. 20 talked with April. Whether or not she would
21 Q. That's what I'm asking. The fact 21 have shared it with him, I don't know.
22 they quit doesn't -- I mean, Jennifer wasn't 22 Q. Do you know how it came about
23 given the option of quitting or being fired, 23 that -- Was it Burchnell?
Page 274 Page 276
1 was she? 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 A. Correct. 2 Q. -- he decided to discipline
3 Q. She was? 3 Robert?
4 A. She was not. 4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Right. She quit on her own 5 Q. So you don't know if it was based
6 volition? 6 on this report or not?
7 A. Correct. She quit on her own. 7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Nothing in this investigation 8 Q. Or anything else it could have
9 revealed she had done anything wrong? 9 been?
10 A. Correct. 10 A. I don't recall what it was based
11 Q. How about Robert Radcliff, did 11 on.
12 this investigation reveal he had done something 12 Q. Do you recall what the -- Was he
13 wrong? 13 terminated?
14 A. Robert Ratliff? 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Ratliff, I'm sorry. 15 Q. Do you recall what the
16 A. Yes, sir. By approving -- 16 termination letter said?
17 Post-approving a lot of these purchases was not 17 A. No, sir, I do not.
18 proper. 18 Q. So you don't know if it was
19 Q. That's why he was fired? 19 related to what was in the ALEA report by
20 A. I think that was one of the 20 Bickhaus?
21 reasons he was fired. 21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. Was there a separate internal 22 Q. Okay. Could have been something
23 review of him? 23 totally separate?
Page 277 Page 279
1 A. Yes, sir. 1 Q. You didn't talk to him about
2 Q. Back to my question, do you know 2 Spencer's mental condition or anything like
3 of anybody that was terminated or disciplined 3 that?
4 during -- as a result of April's investigation? 4 A. No, sir.
5 A. No, sir. 5 Q. You never communicated that to
6 Q. On March 22, Governor Bentley 6 anybody, that you suspected he --
7 held a press conference, which you attended? 7 A. To my knowledge, I've never met
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 with John Archibald.
9 Q. And he called on you to make a 9 Q. Okay. Did you read the press
10 statement? 10 statement before you gave it?
12 Q. And what I saw is you walked up 12 Q. Did you approve of it?
13 there with a typed-out statement? 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you change anything in it?
15 Q. Who typed that out for you? 15 A. I don't recall. Seems like there
16 A. I don't recall exactly who typed 16 was something Jennifer wanted me to say and I
17 it out. I know that -- I think Anna and 17 said no.
18 Jennifer, Yaz, all worked on it together. 18 Q. Do you recall what that was?
19 Q. Do you know if Rebekah Mason 19 A. I do not recall what it was.
20 worked on it? 20 Q. On the op-ed piece you wrote, how
21 A. I do not know if she was involved 21 did that come about?
22 or not. 22 A. That was -- Again, I think it was
23 Q. How did you come about going to 23 prepared with Anna -- our press people and the
Page 278 Page 280
1 the press conference and giving this statement? 1 governor's press people.
2 I mean, was that your idea, did 2 Q. Did you ask anybody to do that
3 you go to the governor and say I'd like to give 3 for you?
4 a press -- 4 A. No, sir.
5 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Just, again, you were contacted
6 Q. -- a press conference? 6 and said you need to sign off on this press op
7 A. No, sir. 7 piece?
8 Q. You were called on to do it? 8 A. If I recall, I think Anna had
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 been talking to the governor's press people,
10 Q. By whom? 10 and they felt that I needed to do that.
11 A. I think Jennifer Ardis contacted 11 Q. Okay. Do you know why?
12 me. 12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. And what did she tell you? 13 Q. I mean, do you know what had come
14 A. Just that I needed to respond and 14 up that they said we need to get Stan to do an
15 be present at the press conference and have a 15 op-ed?
16 statement. 16 They drafted up the op-ed; right?
17 Q. Did you meet with John Archibald 17 A. I don't recall if it was in
18 that day? 18 response to an interview or an article or
19 A. No, sir. 19 something that had come out. I don't recall
20 Q. Not with Jennifer and some 20 the reason behind it.
21 others? Before Spencer's press conference you 21 Q. But to be clear, it wasn't your
22 didn't meet with John Archibald? 22 idea to do it?
Page 281 Page 283
1 Q. You were just told to do it? 1 over an ALEA report to Governor Bentley before
2 A. Correct. 2 May 11th of 2016?
3 Q. From the governor's office? 3 A. No, sir, I do not.
4 A. I wasn't told by the governor's 4 Q. In here, there's a report that
5 office. It was suggested to our press people, 5 ALEA said that it wouldn't produce the report
6 who talked to me. And I concurred and said 6 because of a pending criminal investigation.
7 okay, y'all get something prepared, and I'll 7 Do you know that that was a
8 look over it. 8 statement released by your office?
9 Q. When you came in, was there an 9 A. I do not know who they contacted.
10 active investigation of Phil Williams? 10 Q. Okay. You do agree that was the
11 A. Of who? 11 position of ALEA at the time, that they weren't
12 Q. Phil Williams. Do you remember 12 going to release a report by April Bickhaus or
13 Phil Williams? 13 any of her investigation because it was an
14 A. I don't know how active it still 14 ongoing criminal investigation?
15 was. I know there had been one, yes, sir. 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was it still open? 16 Q. And as of -- During May and June,
17 A. I think it was still open, yes, 17 if I understand you right, and July, there --
18 sir. 18 there was a criminal investigation that was
19 Q. Do you know what happened with 19 being handled by the Attorney General's office;
20 that investigation? 20 right?
21 A. No, sir. 21 A. That was my understanding, yes.
22 (Whereupon, Plaintiff's 22 Q. And April was just doing an
23 Exhibit 19 was marked for 23 administrative investigation?
Page 282 Page 284
1 identification purposes.) 1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Let me show you what's marked as 2 Q. And it was just that the -- Was
3 Exhibit Number 19. 3 this to help you run ALEA or was this to
4 A. Okay. 4 investigate Spencer and people at ALEA?
5 Q. At the bottom of that first page, 5 A. Just for --
6 it says: A release from the governor. It 6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
7 says: An internal ALEA report shows possible 7 A. This was to help me run ALEA, to
8 misuse of State funds. As of May 11, 2016, was 8 correct problems and make sure that we were
9 there an actual ALEA report? 9 operating properly and efficient and being good
10 A. I don't know what -- whoever made 10 stewards of the taxpayers' money.
11 that statement was referring to. 11 Q. And didn't have to do with
12 Q. You had not seen a report from 12 Spencer Collier?
13 April Bickhaus as of May 11th? 13 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
14 A. I don't recall the date I did get 14 A. Not just Spencer, no, sir.
15 that report. 15 MR. MENDELSOHN: I'm trying to
16 Q. But her investigation wasn't 16 wind it down. If I could have about ten
17 completed as of May 11th, was it? 17 minutes just to look at my documents and talk
18 A. No, sir, I don't think she 18 to Spencer.
19 wrapped up until like August sometime. 19 MR. SEGALL: Do you want to take
20 Q. Right. And that was shortly 20 a ten-minute break?
21 before it was turned over to the governor? 21 MR. MENDELSOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the
23 Q. But you don't recall ever turning 23 Record at 4:29 p.m.
Page 285 Page 287
1 (Recess taken.) 1 it. But most of the stuff in this report was
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins disk 2 related to internal policies, procedures,
3 number five in the deposition of Stan Stabler. 3 documentation, and not crimes; right?
4 We're back on the Record at 4:43 p.m. 4 A. Yes, sir. And when you asked me
5 Q. Stan, earlier I had asked you 5 that question earlier about things I think had
6 about it was in the Integrity Unit, and you had 6 been mentioned as potential violations, I do
7 mentioned some names. Could you tell me again 7 recall there was concern about ALEA drivers
8 who they were? I may have cut you off earlier. 8 transporting his children to and from school,
9 A. I know that April Bickhaus was 9 that that could possibly be an ethics
10 the supervisor, Sergeant Chris or Carl 10 violation; allowing his wife to drive his
11 Radcliff, I think is his legal name; there was 11 state-issued car could be an ethics violation.
12 another agent, a male that I think came from 12 I was trying to remember if there was anything
13 ABC, I do not recall his name, I don't think 13 else brought to my attention. But those were
14 he's in the unit anymore; and then there was a 14 two other concerns too that --
15 female, secretary, assistant, they had down 15 Q. Okay.
16 there. 16 A. -- I didn't think about it when
17 Q. She wouldn't have been law 17 you first asked me that question.
18 enforcement though? 18 Q. And did you do anything to
19 A. No, sir, she wouldn't have been 19 investigate those and make a determination?
20 law enforcement. Only three law enforcement 20 A. We did not, no, sir.
21 officers. 21 Q. Okay. But that would have been
22 Q. In looking at the impeachment 22 something turned over to --
23 report, and I can show it to you if need be, 23 A. Yes. I believe it was -- it was
Page 286 Page 288
1 but it -- there's a statement on page 109 that 1 given to the Attorney General's office and the
2 says: Stabler -- You can look and see right 2 Ethics Commission.
3 there. 3 Q. The ALEA, and I say that, it's
4 Stabler agrees the case report of 4 the office, I can't remember exactly who would
5 the investigation was not complete on August 5 have been involved with this, but there was a
6 31, because it had not been fully corroborated. 6 meeting with the Ethics Commission about these
7 Did you make that statement to 7 matters that April's report uncovered, wasn't
8 the impeachment folks? 8 there?
9 A. I didn't make that statement. 9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
10 That's their terminology. I think I -- I made 10 A. I'd have to reflect back on some
11 reference to the case report not being in a 11 notes. I didn't meet with them.
12 completed format. 12 Q. Okay. So you don't know if there
13 Q. Okay. The -- When the matter was 13 was -- You can't remember on your own, as we
14 turned over to the AG's office, that was for a 14 sit here today, whether there was a meeting
15 criminal investigation; correct? 15 with the Ethics Commission?
16 A. Yes, sir. That was my 16 A. No, sir.
17 understanding, that's what the Attorney 17 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
18 General's office was going to do. 18 Q. Were you ever made aware that the
19 Q. The Attorney General's office was 19 Ethics Commission said they were not going to
20 not being called in to investigate policies and 20 investigate Spencer?
21 procedures? 21 A. If I understand correctly, we
22 A. That's correct. 22 received a letter saying they were going to
23 Q. Were -- I don't know how to say 23 basically hold until the attorney generals got
Page 289 Page 291
1 through with what they were doing. 1 that.
2 Q. Okay. So then that would have 2 Q. Were you approached by Leslie
3 been after y'all had referred it to the 3 Dees at the same time too?
4 Attorney General's office? 4 A. Again, I don't know who Leslie
5 A. They may have been referred about 5 Dees is.
6 the same time. I do not know the time frame of 6 Q. Was there any conversation with
7 that. 7 any representative of Gulf States regarding
8 Q. While you were the secretary, was 8 rearming your law enforcement officers?
9 there -- did you make a decision to purchase 9 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
10 body cams for officers? 10 A. Not with me that I recall.
11 A. Yes, sir. We've replaced some 11 Q. Okay. Were you ever informed
12 body cams. 12 that Gulf States had lost a contract with
13 Q. Okay. Were those bought through 13 Glock?
14 Gulf State? 14 A. I knew that that had occurred,
15 A. I did -- I was not a part of the 15 yes, sir.
16 purchasing. I think the major of highway 16 Q. And did y'all make arrangements
17 patrol might have handled that through our 17 to go with another Glock dealer?
18 purchasing division. 18 A. We didn't make arrangements for
19 Q. So you wouldn't have had to sign 19 anything.
20 off on it? 20 Q. Y'all still have Glocks?
21 A. I don't recall if I signed off on 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 that or not. 22 Q. Okay.
23 Q. Were you aware of it at the time? 23 A. They did when I left.
Page 290 Page 292
1 A. I knew they were in the process 1 Q. Okay. But as far as purchasing
2 of talking with -- I think it was a taser 2 ammunition, holsters, new weapons, who were
3 company about cameras. 3 they purchased through?
4 Q. Had you talked to Leslie Dees 4 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
5 about it? 5 A. I don't know that we purchased
6 A. I don't know that I know who 6 any new weapons while I was there as secretary.
7 Leslie Dees is. 7 Q. Would a new officer get a weapon
8 Q. You don't know that he owns Gulf 8 or would there be one in storage?
9 States with his son Charlie? 9 A. To my knowledge, we had some in
10 A. I don't know him, no, sir. 10 supply, if there was a new officer that needed
11 Q. Do you know Charlie Dees? 11 one.
12 A. No, sir. 12 Q. So to your knowledge, while you
13 Q. You've never dealt with either 13 were secretary, there was never any purchase of
14 one of them? 14 any Glocks for the officers? You don't know of
15 A. Not to my knowledge. If I've 15 any?
16 gone in the store and bought something, 16 A. No, sir, don't know of.
17 personally I may have dealt with them, but I 17 Q. Do you know -- Certainly there
18 don't -- I don't know them. 18 was purchase of ammunition?
19 Q. Was there ever a time that you 19 A. I know that ammunition was
20 were considering rearming the law enforcement 20 purchased, we have to qualify.
21 officers with SIGs? 21 Q. Yeah. Do you know who or where
22 A. We were approached by the SIG 22 it would have been purchased from?
23 Corporation, but we never did anything with 23 A. No, sir. The academy handled
Page 293 Page 295
1 that. 1 Q. Okay. And you made the decision,
2 Q. So just to be clear, you never 2 that -- am I -- I'm asking, that the Attorney
3 had any meetings with anybody at Gulf States to 3 General's office was the best independent
4 request that ALEA switch over to SIGs? 4 agency to make that determination?
5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. No, sir. I don't recall ever 6 Q. And did Special Agent Bickhaus
7 meeting with anyone from Gulf States. 7 suggest the Attorney General's office to you?
8 Q. That would have been a SIG 8 A. I don't think she suggested it.
9 representative? 9 I know we had discussed the attorney general,
10 A. The only time I remember talking 10 the district attorney's office. I mean, we
11 to anyone about SIGs, we were at a conference 11 were a State agency, I just felt it better that
12 in -- I believe it was San Diego, where they 12 we go with the Attorney General's office.
13 have a big exhibit hall, and we talked to the 13 Q. All right. Now, let me make sure
14 SIG representatives there, just in touring the 14 I've got this sequence right. You come in as
15 facilities -- in touring the expo down there. 15 acting director February 17 of 2016; is that
16 Q. Okay. But no meetings here in 16 correct?
17 Montgomery? 17 A. That's correct.
18 A. There was none that I can recall 18 Q. Okay. And soon after you come
19 that I was aware of. 19 in, a fellow named Nance Bishop comes to you
20 MR. MENDELSOHN: That's all I've 20 and says: You need to watch your back so that
21 got that I can think of right now. 21 you don't take a fall for what Spencer Collier
22 EXAMINATION 22 did; is that correct?
23 BY MR. SEGALL: 23 A. That's correct.
Page 294 Page 296
1 Q. Mr. Stabler. 1 Q. And whatever he told you, you
2 A. Yes, sir. 2 took from what he said that there might be
3 Q. Is that what is appropriate to 3 issues about misuse of state funds; is that
4 call you, Mr. Stabler or -- 4 correct?
5 A. Stan. 5 A. Correct.
6 Q. -- secretary? 6 Q. Okay. Now, once you were told
7 A. Stan is fine. 7 that, within some short period after that, you
8 Q. If I understood your testimony 8 went to your lawyer, Michael Robinson, the
9 correctly, you told Sergeant Bickhaus -- What 9 lawyer for ALEA, to do some review of what you
10 is she? What's her rank? Special agent? 10 had just been told; is that correct?
11 A. Supervisory special agent I 11 A. I went with him to express my
12 believe is her correct title. 12 concerns about what I'd been told and seeking
13 Q. You told Special Agent Bickhaus 13 advice and maybe what we needed to do.
14 that if she found anything that possibly might 14 Q. And after you did seek advice,
15 be criminal, you were going to turn it over to 15 what the two of you determined was that you
16 the Attorney General's office to do an 16 would do some review of what you were told to
17 independent review for it to determine whether 17 see if there was anything to it?
18 there was anything criminal; is that correct? 18 A. Correct.
19 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Okay. And I think Mr. Mendelsohn
20 Q. Because if there was some 20 asked you some questions about do you ever use
21 suspicion of criminal conduct, you wanted an 21 a lawyer -- or did you ever use a lawyer when
22 independent agency to make that determination? 22 you were a state trooper to help conduct an
23 A. That's correct. 23 investigation. Do you see a difference between
Page 297 Page 299
1 investigating something that involves people 1 earlier on February 29 or a day or so before
2 who've got nothing to do with ALEA and 2 that?
3 investigating an internal ALEA matter? Do you 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 see a difference between those two? 4 Q. All right. Is it in that
5 A. Yes, sir, I do. 5 conversation -- You weren't asking the
6 Q. If I were going to investigate an 6 governor, you were telling the governor what
7 internal matter of a State agency that I was 7 you were doing; correct?
8 the head of, the very first thing I'd do is go 8 A. Correct.
9 to my lawyer. What is the first thing you 9 Q. And the governor at that time
10 would do? 10 said to you: What I expect of you is to run
11 A. I went to my lawyer. 11 this department as though you were the
12 Q. Now, at some point, between 12 permanent head of ALEA; correct?
13 February 17 and February 29, you either see or 13 A. I was thinking that statement was
14 talk to Governor Bentley; is that correct? 14 made to me at the meeting in his office on the
15 A. Yes. 15 1st, when I had April with me.
16 Q. And if I understand your 16 Q. Well, okay.
17 testimony, you tell Governor Bentley that 17 Do you recall that on March 21,
18 you're going to conduct a review of your 18 and I'm just looking -- Excuse me, March 1 -- I
19 department based, in part, on what you had 19 mean, at the March 1 meeting, that's why I'm
20 learned -- that you and Michael Robinson had 20 asking you when you -- when the governor made
21 learned; is that correct? 21 the statement that you're saying, was there
22 A. That's correct. 22 anybody present besides just the two of you
23 Q. All right. And what did -- Is 23 when he said that?
Page 298 Page 300
1 that when -- In that meeting, was that an 1 A. When the governor made the
2 in-person meeting or a telephone call? 2 statement about me running ALEA?
3 A. That was -- I believe that was 3 Q. Yeah.
4 the in-person meeting on March the 1st. 4 A. No, sir. There were other people
5 Q. Well -- 5 in the office.
6 A. Now, we could have talked. 6 Q. There were other people?
7 Q. -- here's the reason I think 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 that's not right. I think it was before then, 8 Q. Okay. So at the March 1 meeting,
9 I think, because -- Well, did you -- Did you 9 and I'm just looking at this timeline folks
10 speak to the governor before or after you had 10 have been referring to, it says that there was
11 assigned Bickhaus to do an investigation or a 11 a meeting in the governor's office; is that
12 review? 12 correct?
13 A. I don't recall an exact date or 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 time. I do recall letting the governor know 14 Q. And it says that it -- that in
15 that there were some concerns. 15 attendance were Governor Bentley -- I'm seeing
16 Q. My question is: Did you tell 16 whether this will refresh -- refreshes your
17 them that before you appointed Bickhaus or not? 17 memory. It says David Byrne was present.
18 A. I believe I did let him know. 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Before you appointed Bickhaus? 19 Q. It says Joe Espy was present, and
20 A. Before, right. Yes, sir. 20 Michael was present, and Blake Hardwich, and
21 Q. So what I'm saying is, you 21 Jennifer Ardis; and it says Rebekah was on the
22 appointed Bickhaus on February 29, so doesn't 22 telephone, not present but on the telephone.
23 that mean that you told the governor either 23 Does that refresh your recollection as to
Page 301 Page 303
1 who -- 1 A. I do recall us having a meeting.
2 A. Yes, sir. 2 If it's reflected on the 21st, I don't have any
3 Q. -- was present at that meeting? 3 reason to doubt that.
4 And it says that during the 4 Q. All right. Okay. You do recall
5 meeting you and Michael Robinson explained the 5 it was in and about the time you did your press
6 procedure of the internal investigation and how 6 statement?
7 the Integrity Unit conducted reviews at ALEA; 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 is that correct? 8 Q. Okay. It was at that time that
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 you told the governor that the investigation,
10 Q. Okay. And you believe it was at 10 to that point, had already revealed some
11 that meeting that the governor said: You 11 concerns; is that correct?
12 decided to do a review, you're the director, 12 A. That's correct.
13 it's your decision? 13 Q. And that there was a possible
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 concern about the misuse of state funds;
15 Q. Okay. The governor did not ask 15 correct?
16 you to do a review or an investigation? 16 A. That's correct.
17 A. No, he did not. 17 Q. And there was, in fact -- I mean,
18 Q. Rebekah Mason certainly didn't 18 I'm asking you, was there not, in fact,
19 ask you to do any investigation of Spencer 19 concerns about a possible misuse of state
20 Collier, did she? 20 funds?
21 A. No, she did not. 21 A. Yes, sir. There were -- There
22 Q. Or any investigation or review of 22 were concerns.
23 any kind about anybody, did she? 23 Q. And -- And am I correct that you
Page 302 Page 304
1 A. No, she did not. 1 didn't hand the governor any pieces of paper or
2 Q. That was a decision you made 2 documentation, did you?
3 based on this fellow coming to talk to you, and 3 A. No, sir.
4 then -- and including the folks you and Michael 4 Q. You didn't give him the summary
5 Robinson talked to, that was your 5 report; it hadn't been completed yet, had it?
6 determination? 6 A. That's correct.
7 A. Correct. My decision. 7 Q. You hadn't seen it yet?
8 Q. All right. Now, did you then -- 8 A. No, sir.
9 That investigation went on. And then do you 9 Q. But what you did is, you told him
10 recall being at a meeting on March 21, 2016. 10 the conclusion that you had made, based on the
11 It says -- Again, just to refresh your memory 11 investigation to that point; correct?
12 I'm going to read what this timeline says. It 12 A. To that point, that's correct.
13 says that Stan Stabler, Michael Robinson, and 13 Q. And so did the governor have any
14 David Byrne discussed the general findings. 14 reason, to your knowledge, at all, to doubt the
15 This was an eight o'clock a.m. meeting in the 15 accuracy of what you told him?
16 governor's office and those were the people 16 A. No, sir.
17 present: Stabler, Robinson, Byrne, and the 17 Q. At whatever point, Rebekah Mason
18 governor. Do you recall that? This is -- This 18 wasn't at that meeting, was she?
19 is the same day you ultimately did a press 19 A. No, sir.
20 release. 20 Q. But whenever Rebekah Mason heard
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 what you had told the governor, which I think
22 Q. All right. So do you recall that 22 was later that day, on March 21, which is when
23 meeting at eight a.m. in the -- 23 the press release ultimately went out, would
Page 305 Page 307
1 Rebekah Mason have had any basis in this world 1 when you ordered it; is that correct?
2 to disbelieve what you had said? 2 A. Yes, sir. And looking back at
3 A. No, sir. 3 the two, I think that was the only difference
4 Q. Wasn't any piece of paper for her 4 in the two was those words added to the front
5 to look at; correct? 5 of the paragraph. When I looked over it, I
6 A. That's correct. 6 guess I didn't think that it changed the
7 Q. She -- Okay. 7 context of what I was saying, so I said send it
8 And then that night is when your 8 out.
9 press release was done, or maybe you -- or 9 Q. All right. And you know that
10 maybe -- it was either that night or the next 10 last week was actually one day before February
11 night. 11 29. February 29 was a Monday, and last week
12 A. I'd have to reflect back on it, 12 was the day before that --
13 yes, sir. 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Well, Kenny showed you an 14 Q. -- February 28?
15 exhibit, I think it was -- it used to be marked 15 Be that as it may, do the words
16 as Exhibit 17 to another deposition. 16 last week suggest any wrongdoing by anybody?
17 A. Let me see if I can find it real 17 A. No, sir.
18 quick. 18 Q. Do the words last week put
19 Q. Is that from March 22 or is it 19 anybody in a false or misleading light to the
20 March -- 20 public?
21 A. No, sir. 17 is Senator Orr's 21 A. No, sir.
22 stuff. 22 Q. Those words are pretty
23 Q. This is 17 from another 23 irrelevant, aren't they?
Page 306 Page 308
1 deposition. 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 MR. MENDELSOHN: Here it is 2 Q. And you say that you ordered a
3 (indicating). 3 thorough investigation; that's what you
4 Q. That's it. Does it have the 4 expected to get; correct?
5 March 1 at the bottom? 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. Yes, sir. Statement from March 6 Q. All right. Then on March 22,
7 1, and at the top statement from March 22. 7 after the investigation had gone on and you had
8 Q. Okay. Let me -- Let's start with 8 made your report to the governor and -- and to
9 March 1 one, even though I'm -- 9 David Byrne, to Michael Robinson, you issued
10 A. Okay. 10 the report March 22. You understood that to be
11 Q. -- I'm backtracking. Kenny 11 your statement; correct?
12 pointed out to you -- First of all, the March 1 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 statement you thought and totally believed, and 13 Q. You understood it was not the
14 I'm just talking about at that time right now, 14 statement of whoever wrote it. Whoever wrote
15 that that statement was true and correct; is 15 it was giving it to you for you to determine
16 that right? 16 whether that was, in fact, the statement you
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 wanted to make --
18 Q. All right. And you believe that 18 A. That's correct.
19 today? 19 Q. -- correct?
20 A. Yes, sir. 20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Kenny pointed out that it says: 21 Q. And just read the first paragraph
22 Last week I ordered a thorough internal review, 22 to yourself.
23 when in fact you had done it on February 29, is 23 A. (Witness complies.)
Page 309 Page 311
1 Q. I just want to know whether 1 whether there was probable cause; correct?
2 that's true and accurate. 2 A. That's correct.
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Attorney General's office
4 Q. All right. The next paragraph 4 apparently didn't feel confident enough itself
5 indicates where ALEA's Integrity Unit has 5 to make that decision, it submitted it to a
6 conducted a thorough internal review of the 6 grand jury; is that right?
7 operations policies and procedures of the 7 A. That's correct.
8 agency, true statement? 8 Q. Attorney general doesn't have to
9 A. True statement. 9 submit anything to a grand jury it doesn't want
10 Q. Continuing, but they've conducted 10 to submit to a grand jury, does it?
11 it already, but they're going to continue it 11 A. No, sir.
12 into the future; is that right? 12 Q. Did the people who helped write
13 A. That's correct. 13 that statement, number one, all they were doing
14 Q. The Integrity Unit review found a 14 is writing down what you had previously
15 number of concerns; is that true? 15 reported as the findings; correct?
16 A. That's correct. 16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. At the time you released the 17 Q. And, again, they didn't have the
18 statement, for the sake of argument, let's say 18 remotest cause or any facts whatever to cause
19 Anna Morris worked on this, let's say Jennifer 19 them to doubt in any way the accuracy of the
20 Ardis worked on this, for the sake of argument 20 statement that the review had shown a possible
21 let's say Rebekah Mason worked on it, any 21 misuse of State funds, did they?
22 reason in this universe for any of the three of 22 A. Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
23 them to have any notion that there would be 23 Q. Well, then you don't know of any
Page 310 Page 312
1 anything at all inaccurate in that statement? 1 facts yourself that would have caused you to
2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 2 disbelieve that, did you?
3 A. No, sir. 3 A. Oh, no, sir. I believed
4 Q. And then it goes on to say, found 4 everything here to be accurate.
5 a number of concerns, including the possible 5 Q. And when you say that findings of
6 misuse of state funds; correct? 6 the review have been submitted to the Attorney
7 A. Yes, sir, it says that. 7 General's office for further action, that would
8 Q. It's true as it could possibly 8 be for an independent review, is that correct,
9 be; right? 9 to determine whether that that possibility was
10 A. Correct. Yes, sir. 10 more than that?
11 Q. Possible means possible, doesn't 11 A. That's correct.
12 it? 12 Q. Now, you -- You said that as a
13 A. Yes, sir. 13 result of these -- this meeting, I guess, that
14 Q. You weren't saying there's 14 morning of March 21 -- or the afternoon of
15 probable cause to believe somebody committed a 15 March 21, whenever it was, that -- you said to
16 crime in this statement, were you? 16 Mr. Mendelsohn that it was at that time you
17 A. Correct. Correct. 17 became aware of the preparation of either a
18 Q. You're saying it showed possible 18 letter accepting Spencer Collier's resignation
19 misuse; correct? 19 or another letter terminating his employment;
20 A. That's correct. 20 is that correct?
21 Q. And if it showed a possible 21 A. Correct.
22 misuse, you wanted the Attorney General's 22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
23 office to review it and make a determination of 23 Q. And did you also become aware
Page 313 Page 315
1 that that was David Byrne's idea, not the 1 A. No, sir.
2 governor's idea? Did you become aware of that? 2 Q. Or ask you to please investigate
3 A. No, sir. I wasn't sure whose 3 this or that?
4 idea it was. 4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Was that discussed in your 5 Q. Did she ever edit the report, the
6 presence at all, those two letters? Was it 6 summary report?
7 discussed with David Byrne present? 7 A. No, sir.
8 A. No, sir, I don't recall. 8 Q. Mr. Mendelsohn asked you about
9 Q. Okay. On March 1, when you and 9 the personnel decisions made at ALEA. Did
10 -- you and Michael Robinson were discussing the 10 Rebekah Mason have anything in the world to do
11 procedures with Joe Espy and David Byrne and 11 with any of those personnel decisions?
12 others present, y'all were discussing the 12 A. No, sir.
13 procedures of the internal investigation, do 13 Q. Did she have anything to do with
14 you recall that in that meeting there was a 14 the Integrity Unit at ALEA?
15 discussion about a release to the media 15 A. No, sir.
16 indicating that a review was being conducted? 16 Q. And did I understand your
17 Do you remember that being part of the 17 testimony to be that the Attorney General's
18 discussion? 18 office, after the initial delivery of documents
19 A. I don't recollect it right now -- 19 to it, asked for additional information?
20 Q. Okay. That's fine. 20 A. Yes. I did receive a letter from
21 A. -- that's been almost two years 21 Luther Strange requesting documents.
22 ago. 22 Q. And y'all responded to that?
23 Q. And I don't think there's 23 A. Yes, sir.
Page 314 Page 316
1 anything in the world I could tell you about 1 MR. SEGALL: That's all the
2 what happened two years ago, so I understand 2 questions I have. Thank you.
3 that. 3 MR. TREWHELLA: I don't have any
4 Do you know who made the decision 4 questions.
5 to release the Bickhaus report? 5 MR. MENDELSOHN: We've got a
6 You said you didn't know it was 6 couple more.
7 being released, do you -- do you know who made 7 EXAMINATION CONTINUED
8 the decision to release it? 8 BY MR. MENDELSOHN:
9 A. No, sir. 9 Q. When you gave the release on
10 Q. You never heard Rebekah Mason 10 March 22nd, you just didn't -- not what's
11 made that decision, did you? 11 actually said in the press release, but to make
12 A. No, sir. 12 clear, you had turned this over to the Attorney
13 Q. I'm asking you this question 13 General's office?
14 because there's an allegation in the report. 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 During the entire course of whatever ALEA did 15 Q. And it was to investigate crimes?
16 in connection with its internal review or 16 A. We had made a determination we
17 investigation, did Rebekah Mason ever have any 17 were going to further that to the Attorney
18 input of any kind? 18 General's office, yes, sir.
19 A. Not to my knowledge, no, sir, she 19 Q. And when you made this statement
20 did not. 20 and press release, it was published that the
21 Q. Did she ever call you and say, 21 findings of the review had been submitted to
22 you need to direct your investigation one place 22 the Attorney General's office for further
23 or the other? 23 actions, that certainly did suggest to the
Page 317 Page 319
1 public that this was a criminal matter, didn't 1 were a road trooper, you would write tickets?
2 it? 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 3 Q. And you knew those were
4 A. That's your opinion, not mine, 4 technically arrest warrants?
5 no, sir. 5 A. Correct.
6 Q. What do you think it meant? 6 Q. And there would be an affidavit
7 A. That they were going to look into 7 saying what happened on what date and time;
8 it and see if there was a criminal element. 8 correct?
9 Q. Yeah. But it was for criminal 9 A. Correct.
10 purposes, not for civil purposes? 10 Q. And a violation of a statute?
11 A. That's correct. 11 A. Correct.
12 Q. They were not looking into it to 12 Q. And I know y'all -- nowadays it's
13 determine whether the policies and procedures 13 on a computer, but back in the day, y'all would
14 were followed about whether you have to -- you 14 have charts about what the particular crimes
15 could buy jackets at Dick's, for example? 15 were or the moving violations, most of which
16 A. That's correct. 16 you probably could spit off the top of your
17 Q. Okay. And so you understood that 17 head and take down?
18 you were conveying to the average reader that 18 A. Correct.
19 there is possibly criminal conduct or enough 19 Q. When you became an ABI
20 that you felt criminal conduct to turn over to 20 investigator, when you swore out arrest
21 the attorney general? 21 warrants, you would do an affidavit and an
22 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 22 arrest warrant to go out to be able to arrest
23 A. Yes. 23 somebody; right?
Page 318 Page 320
1 Q. Okay. Now, it says the possible 1 A. Correct.
2 misuse of state funds. 2 Q. And in those, you would cite a
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 statute that was violated?
4 Q. Okay. Is that a crime? 4 A. Correct.
5 A. I mean, it could be. 5 Q. When you referred cases to the
6 Q. What crime? 6 local district attorney's office, you would
7 A. Well, when you say improper use 7 cite the statute that you had reasonable cause
8 of state funds, that's very broad. 8 or probable cause to believe was violated?
9 Q. Well -- 9 A. Correct.
10 A. I'm just saying things could be 10 Q. And the facts that supported it?
11 -- a criminal act could be a misuse of funds. 11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Okay. 12 Q. Okay. My question to you, as we
13 A. That's not what I was alleging. 13 sit here today, is there a statute making the
14 Q. What were you alleging? 14 misuse of state funds a crime?
15 A. That funds weren't spent 15 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
16 properly. 16 A. I'm trying to answer your
17 Q. And is that a crime? 17 question.
18 A. It can be. Doesn't have to be, 18 Q. Sure.
19 it can be. 19 A. Not all misuse of state funds are
20 Q. What crime? 20 actions of criminal -- are criminal acts. But
21 A. I'm not sure what you're asking 21 there could be a criminal act that could
22 me. 22 involve misuse of state funds.
23 Q. Okay. Let's go back. When you 23 Q. Had you made a determination at
Page 321 Page 323
1 that time that there was a criminal act that 1 cleaners or the grocery store on the way home
2 Spencer Collier had possibly violated? 2 you could?
3 A. No, sir. That's why we referred 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 it to the Attorney General's office. 4 Q. And so as Spencer could?
5 Q. Okay. Did April Bickhaus ever 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 report to you that she had any cause to believe 6 Q. But to ask an ALEA officer who
7 that Spencer had violated a criminal statute? 7 had a vehicle to pick up his kids for him if
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 Spencer couldn't go, you're saying that's a
9 Q. She did? 9 crime?
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 A. That would be --
11 Q. What did she tell you? 11 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
12 A. The use of office for personal 12 A. That would have to be a
13 gain. 13 determination made by the Ethics Commission or
14 Q. In what manner? 14 a grand jury I guess. I can only give you my
15 A. The self-appointing with 15 personal opinion.
16 collecting the extra per diem money. I'm 16 Q. And your personal opinion is?
17 trying to remember what else she said. 17 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
18 I think that was the main thing 18 A. I think that if you use the
19 the -- the first thing that she mentioned to 19 resources like that, yes, sir, I think it's --
20 me. 20 that you're using it for personal benefit.
21 Q. Anything else you can recall? 21 Q. Even if Spencer was tied up, say,
22 A. As I said, we -- we discussed the 22 with a meeting with the governor?
23 expense travel form, the other things that we 23 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
Page 322 Page 324
1 thought were possible ethics violations. 1 Q. You're saying it would have been
2 Q. What other things? 2 a crime to ask one of those other folks, could
3 A. The use of the vehicle by the 3 you go pick my kids up from school?
4 wife, the transporting kids for personal 4 A. I said my opinion is, yes, sir.
5 reasons to and from school, for example, in a 5 Q. Okay.
6 personal vehicle, using State personnel to do 6 Did you ever use a trooper car to
7 it. 7 go to a ball game back when you were a road
8 Q. Now, as far as transporting the 8 trooper?
9 kids, Spencer was authorized to take his kids 9 A. Did I ever use a trooper car?
10 to and from school in the State vehicle? 10 Q. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Okay. There's no crime if he put 12 Q. You never went to a football game
13 them into his State-issued ALEA vehicle to take 13 in your trooper car?
14 his kids to school or pick them up from school? 14 A. Not that I recall. Now, I may
15 A. Not that I could determine, no, 15 have stopped by while working, with my radio on
16 sir. 16 at a ball game. But, no, sir, I did not, while
17 Q. And while you were ALEA 17 off, use my trooper car to go to a ball game.
18 secretary, or acting secretary, you were 18 Q. Did y'all ever follow up with
19 allowed to use your vehicle for personal 19 anybody to determine with this self-appointing
20 reasons? 20 as the ALEA director was a crime?
21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 21 A. If I recall reading, April
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 discussed that with someone in the Attorney
23 Q. And if you needed to go by the 23 General's office.
Page 325 Page 327
1 Q. Do you know what they told her? 1 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
2 A. If I recall correctly, and I 2 A. Yes.
3 think it's in there, that their opinion was it 3 Q. It is?
4 wasn't proper. 4 A. If the criminal code states it's
5 Q. It was? 5 illegal, I don't care if the governor signed
6 A. Wasn't. 6 off on it or Jackie Graham, it would still
7 Q. It was improper? 7 violate that criminal --
8 A. It wasn't proper. 8 Q. What criminal code makes it
9 Q. It wasn't proper? 9 illegal?
10 A. Correct. 10 A. I would have to look it up, I
11 Q. You do know that Spencer wrote a 11 don't know off the top of my head.
12 letter to the Personnel Department for -- 12 Q. Are you saying there is an actual
13 appointing himself? 13 criminal code statute that says that the
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 director of Homeland Security cannot appoint
15 Q. And this wasn't something he did 15 himself as a law enforcement officer?
16 on his own in ALEA; right? 16 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
17 I mean, he wrote -- I mean at 17 A. No, sir. That's not what I'm
18 Homeland Security. 18 saying.
19 He wrote a letter to Jackie 19 Q. That's what I want to make sure
20 Graham at the Personnel Department. 20 of. You say that it doesn't matter what the
21 A. Correct. I recall seeing a 21 governor and Jackie say, it could still be a
22 document like that. 22 crime because of a criminal statute?
23 Q. And she would know the most about 23 A. My dis- --
Page 326 Page 328
1 what are available positions and what are 1 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
2 proper positions, wouldn't she? 2 A. My discussions with the
3 MR. SEGALL: Object to the form. 3 investigator, was that it was possible use of
4 A. I don't know what -- I don't know 4 office for personal gain.
5 what she would know. 5 Q. Even if the governor approved of
6 Q. Did you check it out? 6 it and personnel approved of it?
7 A. I didn't. That was April's job. 7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know if April ever 8 Q. Did y'all know at the time that
9 contacted Jackie to ask her about whether this 9 the governor had signed off on it?
10 was proper? 10 A. I do not know what she knew at
11 A. I don't know. 11 that time.
12 Q. Do you know if anybody asked the 12 Q. Did you check the immigration
13 governor if he approved of it? 13 statute?
14 A. I don't know. 14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Do you know if the governor 15 Q. Did you ask Michael to?
16 approved of Spencer appointing himself? 16 A. No, sir.
17 A. Seems like I might have seen a 17 Q. So you don't know whether the
18 document where he signed off on it. 18 immigration statute allowed for it or not?
19 Q. Okay. So if you got the governor 19 A. I don't know whether April made a
20 signing off on it, and you've got the director 20 determination.
21 of the Personnel Department signing off on it, 21 (Off-the-Record discussion
22 would it still be your position that that was a 22 was held.)
23 crime or possibly a crime committed by Spencer? 23 Q. Now, this -- Let me make sure I'm
Page 329 Page 331
1 right on this. There was -- As April was doing 1 Q. In March of 2016?
2 this report, there was the possibility that it 2 A. I'm not sure when I became aware
3 would have been turned over to the Attorney 3 that he was actually under investigation.
4 General's office? 4 Q. Okay. So you didn't know it at
5 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 5 the time?
6 Q. Once it had been referred to the 6 A. I don't think so.
7 attorney general, that her actual report would 7 Q. You don't think you knew?
8 have been submitted to them; correct? 8 A. Yes, sir, I don't think I knew.
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Okay. I know you were new to the
10 Q. Okay. Do you know whether it 10 job, but when you were meeting with the
11 was? 11 governor to discuss with him possible criminal
12 A. No, sir. 12 violations by Spencer and other members of
13 Q. You don't know? 13 ALEA, did you think it was appropriate for
14 A. No, sir. 14 non-State officials to be in that meeting?
15 Q. You were never asked to review it 15 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
16 before it went to them? 16 A. I don't know that we ever used
17 A. No, sir. Not that I know of. 17 that terminology with the governor in those
18 Q. And as we talked earlier, you 18 meetings that we were -- criminal acts, or
19 know there are some incorrect statements in 19 however you worded it.
20 that report? 20 Q. So the meetings that Joe was in
21 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 21 attendance, there was nothing discussed about
22 A. In the ALEA summary? 22 the findings of this ALEA report or possible
23 Q. Uh-huh? 23 findings about it?
Page 330 Page 332
1 A. I do not know the accuracy of all 1 A. I don't recall --
2 statements. 2 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
3 Q. Not all, I just -- Never mind. 3 A. I don't recall what all was
4 Do you know what Joe Espy's 4 discussed in front of him.
5 reasons for being at these meetings were? 5 MR. MENDELSOHN: That's all I've
6 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 6 got. Hold on.
7 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Looking back at it, do you think
8 Q. He was not a State employee? 8 it was improper --
9 A. No, sir. 9 MR. SEGALL: Object to the form.
10 Q. You don't know him to be a 10 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
11 assistant attorney general? 11 Q. -- that the governor had his
12 A. Not to my knowledge. 12 personal attorney?
13 Q. He was Governor Bentley's 13 MR. SEGALL: Object to the form.
14 personal attorney? 14 MS. MAYS: Object to the form.
15 A. That was my understanding. 15 A. I don't know his reason for
16 Q. Do you know why he was present in 16 wanting his attorney there.
17 any of these meetings? 17 MR. MENDELSOHN: That's all.
18 A. No, sir. 18 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
19 MS. MAYS: Object to the form. 19 the Record at 5:33 p.m. This concludes the
20 Q. You knew, though, at this time 20 deposition.
21 that Governor Bentley was under investigation 21 (The deposition was concluded at 5:33 p.m.,
22 by the Ethics Commission? 22 July 17, 2018.)
23 A. At which time? 23

Page 333
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF ALABAMA,
3 MONTGOMERY COUNTY,
4 I, Angela Smith McGalliard, Certified
5 Court Reporter and Commissioner for the State
6 of Alabama at Large, do hereby certify that the
7 above and foregoing proceeding was taken down
8 by me by stenographic means, and that the
9 content herein was produced in transcript form
10 by computer aid under my supervision, and that
11 the foregoing represents a true and correct
12 transcript of the proceedings occurring on said
13 date and at said time.
14 I further certify that I am neither of
15 kin nor of counsel to the parties to the
16 action; nor in any manner interested in the
17 result of said case.
18
19 Signed the 23rd day of July, 2018.
20
/s/Angela Smith McGalliard
21 ANGELA SMITH MCGALLIARD, CCR
CCR Lic. No. 98. Expires 9/30/18
22 Notary Expiration 9/17/19
23

Stan Stabler Deposition

Uploaded by

Document Information

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Stan Stabler Deposition

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

J. Stanley Stabler, Sr.

Freedom Court Reporting, A Veritext Company 877-373-3660

Freedom Court Reporting, A Veritext Company 877-373-3660

You might also like