Professional Documents
Culture Documents
N OCNVERSATICN
Thirty five years after it apened withaut fanfareat the George
EastmanHouse in Rochester,N.Y.,a reconstituted versian of the
"New Topographics"exhibition,centered on a selection of 140
phatographs fram the ariginal shaw, is destined for bigger audi-
ences o/r a three year lang internatianaltour.
arganized by EastmanHouse curator WilliamJenkins in 1975, "New
Tapagraphics:Photographs of a l\,4analtered Landscape" featured
the wark of Rabert Adams, Lewis Baltz, Bernd and Hilla Becher, Joe
Deal, Frank Gohlke, Nicholas Nixan, Jahn Schotl, Stephen Shore
and Henry Wessel,Jr. Their modestly scaled, mostly black and-whit-a
phatographs of urban, subLtrban,commercial and indLtstrialdevelap
ment seemed uncamfortablyaustere,at first,ta membersaf an art
phatoq!aphycommLtq;tJ sttuggltngta ga;n culldal 1!actrcqln theil
radical break from the ramantic and symbal-heavy work of midcen-
tury image makers like AnselAdams, Minor White, Harry Callahan
Fl;otPa1pr. Nr.A Topoqapht,s photoqraph-rsperlect-d an
"nd
U.det-tdl-d, "lust-lha-ta.t- photoqapht. Slyl- !o b-ltp! !pqp aql d
postwar warld in which the "landscape" was routinely and profitably
b-,ng plowed undct. , a, vpd up aad pa. Aag-j ,6al 6sraie
lnspired and embaldened,in varyingdegrees,"" by the deadpan and
mare conceptualphatographic wark af artistslike Ed Ruscha and Rab
ert Smithson,New Topographicsphatographyemerged from the long
shadaw cast by 196Assteet phatography.But unlikeLee Friedlander
and Garry Winagrand,who extracted visuallysyncapatedimages from
urban chaos, or DianeArbus, wha created all toa human partraits, the
NptATopaqtdph;.sphotag.lphpt- ha"p to mal- p', turc<;nd <eem-
ingly neutral style. For the most part, they tuned their backs an bath
hubbub and the sublime, gat inta their cars and headed toward autlying
adt
ond o v q l a o ^ a d r t t a 5 . lp a t tq g th p Co n t o[ e<S ]\ tr ttC
- n tta n s -^? -
and traditianal"cancerned"phatography far behind.
Or so it seemed at the time. Jenkins, the first champion of this work,
described it in the ariginal catalague as eschewng "beauty, emation,
dnd apnton. Naw.;n h;nd<tght.;ts pa .tblp rc rct;si! the Aorl and
interpret it differently.ln her insightful
essa\ /o/ the cata/oguelhaLaccom
La:\.,r r Eir :,r lP2a n'a:t:i
panles lhis "New Topagraphics"
i/:ii. alrf Cotl)a)raira.r show, Britt Sa/vesen,curator at the
iri',rilI [Jir]r(d/rlryilr. Las Angeles County Museum of Arl,
A !,rarls r tha :a)rar:rTfc takes a retrospective,nuanced laok
lite\r,'rr Lsti t lrarksfaar at the cantent of the wark and cultural
r, , ,riaO:l
. lr)rfir'-..1/i. at ar : ill
:r \ier ]| -t il bj, ! r ., res cantext af the period. EastmanHouse
ll,..irr.lel-:rstr'ra r I la,-r:r-. curatar Alison Nardstram,in another
essay for the catalogue, charts the
e^htbilrcas ascenLham ull Laneat-
mythological status,and explainswhy
CURRENTIY ONV EW it's now hailed, by some, as nothing
Ir,irJr T! iai! G ih rn:
Plr.r1.r.tr1plrs il a l\'1all\tereal less than a paradigm shift in cantem
Lafalsa,-rlic aLtlra:Lo..iA rlc irs porary photography.
Co.|rt! [1.]seul-_ n'A _ t rcLrLllr Having knawn and warked with
Jr iJ rpc r rl irLLr: O. Lc.
f! C eat\,ePl otD!traphy a number of the photagraphersin
T r. so f Feb . l!l the exhibitian,Ithaught it might be
]ANUARY
]O ART NAI.']ERCA97
"I ASSUMEDFROMTHE
OUTSET THATPHOTOGRAPHY
WASALREADY ART,AND
THATIANDOTHERPEOPLE
WORKING IN PHOTOGRAPHY
WEREARTISTS.I UNDERSTAND
NOWTHATTHISWASA
MINORITYPOINTOFVIEW."
ci al y gr oups of im a g e s k e " T h e T ra c t
Hous es "( 1971) a n d" T h e N e w In d u s -
tr a P ar k s "( 1974 )-a s s o me i h i n g i k e
l e galbr ief s ,where y o u l s t p a rti c u l a rs l
th e r e' st h s and t h i s a n d th i s a n d th s .
N, 4y int entwas n' t to d ra w c o n c l u so n s ,
b u t t o pr ov idea b o d y o f e v i d e n c e
u p on whic h s om e o n ePre s u m a b l y
co u d m ak ejudgm e n ts .
MH ln a piec e y ou w ro te fo ( l ma g e
ma gazne lv ol. 17 ,n o . 2 l i n 1 9 7 4 ,a n d
n a pr es ent at ionl h e a rd y o u g i v e a t
Cooper Unlon in N e w Yo rk i n th e mi d -
'7 0s , y ou laid out d e ta i l sa b o u t th e
ma t er ialand ec on o m i cc o n d ti o n s a n d
re war dst hat enc o u ra g e dth e c o n -
struc ton of t he r e s i d e n ti aal n d i n d u s
tri al s t r uc t ur esy o u b e c a m e k n o w n fo r
p hot ogr aphing.H o w i m p o rta n tw a s
it for you to set viewers up with that
ki n d of inf or m at i o n ?O r d i d y o u th l n k
viewers could extract that informaton
as they looked at the work jtself?
L B lt hought t hen ,th o u g h I p ro b a b l y
don't th nk the same thing now, that by
work ng in groups of images,the work
would provideits own context in ways
th a t a s lnge m ag e c o u d n ' t. A s i n g l e
irnagecan be comp etelyaleatoryand
operatein its own universe.lt doesn't
have anything,necessariy,to cross
re ' er a- c e.B ULwil " a g ro u p o t i ma g e s .
you c an c om par eo n e to a n o th e ra n d
see any contradctronsor connections
to be m ade bet we e nth e m. l th o u g h t
that that went some distancetowards
co nt ex t ualzng wh a t I w a s d o n g a n d
g i v ing t a s t r uc t u re .l th i n k , n o w , I h a d
too m uc h c onf lde n c el n th a t.
M H I n r he 1970s, o ts o f p h o l o g ra -
p h er s t alk ed abou t a n d n ra d es e ri e s
o f m ages ,whic h u s u a l l ym e a n tth a t
they'd carved out a way of approach "Homageto the Square"seemedto LB l t' s sori of hyperbol e,but Ed Rus
ng an area of subject matter and go back to biblicaltimes.FrankStella's cha savedmy l i fe.I w as a st udent
e l p or ad il - nt il t h e v g o t' i re d o l L blackpaintlngsattractedattentionin at the San FranciscoArt Institute
What s eem edun i q u ea b o u t w h a t y o u the late l950s and eady 1960s.John and no one i n that envi ronm entwas
were do ng was that you deve oped a Coplans'sinfluen'iialexhlbition"Serial remotel ynterestedi n w h at lwas
d e c ldedlym lnim a la n d m o re ri g o ro u s lmagery"openedat the PasadenaArt dol ng.A round 1967-68,a r enegade
approacn n your worK. N,4useum in 1968.The dea was very A rt l nsti tutei nstructorti p ped m e of f t o
L B T her ewas a g o o d a mo u n t o f d i s - much in the alr. R uscha' sbooks. Fi rst I b or r owedand
cu s s ionabo! t s e r a l i rn a g e ryg o i n g o n MH Ed Ruscha'sllooks were pub ished later stole them from the Art Inst tute
a t t he t lm e in t he a rts . J o s e f Al b e rs ' s aroundthat time,too. l ,orary., unoerstoodR LrSChd s p'o ect
-vaded by out s id e rsw h o w e re g o i l g peopleto enter it and, by enteringit, MH In the processof lookingat ano
to br ng in c r it er a th a t i t h a d n o to coffrpletelt. The fact that it wasn't a respondingto real-estatedevelop-
n te r es t n and, m a y b e , n o a b l ty to very nvitinguniversesn't losi on me. nrent,which some peoplewou d say s
d e a l wit h. I r em em b e rth a t fo r s o m e In one sense,I can understandwhy a nasty process,you made exquisitely
C a l if or niaphot ogr a p h ys h o w n th e peop e were worked up about it. beautfu pictures.Was that anotherone
1 9 80s ,s om eone ^ i e rv e w e d q o b a rl MH Evenwhen the structuresyou pho- of your goals?
Fi c ht er ,who des crl b e dth e p h o to tographed n the 1970shad doors and LB wa^.ed lae viewerto see every
co m m unt y as be n g l i k e a o v e l y l l ti e wlndows,some viewersfelt that li was detail,to be ableto read the imageas
su n - dr enc hedG r e e k i s l a n d .l th o u g h t hard to get "lnto"these images. c ear y and closey as Possble. But I
th at was r eallygen e ro u s .l th o u g h t LB You'reconstanty confrontedwith a so knew f I renderedwhat I saw in
i r -or e A ppalac h' arh a n Sa -to r r-i : wals that were there,in part, to con- very high definiton, it would automat
so m e dank m ounta i nv a e y , w h e re ceal what was happeningbeh nd them. ca ly look seductve.
b rot her shav e bee n s c re w i n gth e i r MH To that end and I don't rernember MH And yet, you chose a 35mm cam
s st er s f or gener a ti o n s a , n d e v e ry - f I came up w th this mysef or read it era ro do LFat.W hy di dn t y ou wo'[
b o dy t alk s a lit t e b i t fu n n y . somewhere-your work in the "New with a largerformat camera, ike so
illr
t-t-t
.,I'VE
THOUGHT THAT ng to gaze back at nre. I realizedby
1989that l'd reallydone my work.
WHENPEOPLE APPEAR MH Yourwork or that New Topograph-
INA PICTURE, THEY cs work?
AUTOMATICALLY ARE LB Certainlythe New Topographcs
PERCEIVED AS THESUBJECT, work. WhateverI was ab e to contr b-
IRRESPECTIVE OFHOW ute to that kind of photography,I had
THEYARE REPRESENTED. a readygiven.Someoneelse m ght
I WANTED THEONLY find more to do, but I didn't.Afterthat
PERSON INTHEPICTURE I wantedto changeeverythlng,so I
TO BE THE VIEWER." c fa rg a d l i vesand l ctra^gedcounl ri es.
contlnents,my way of working.The
rnorphology,productionand, more
w a s as s em bling,ed i ti n ga n d s e q u e n c - importantly,the output of the work has
ing imagesas lwas photographing. changed.N/ostof what l've done over
MH And as you were doing that, what the past 15 yearshave been public
ult mateform did you want the work to commissions s te-generated,often
take, and why? ephemeralresponsesto s tuatlonsthat
LB I thoughtthat was so se f-evdent. wou d make no sensesomeplaceelse.
Books.Books are relativelydemocratc. Work not intendedfor the market.
lJyou want your work to be avalableto MH So, the photographythat made you
anyonewho s interested,few though famousbeganto feel restrictive?
that might be, books make more sense LB I didn't want to becomea guy who
than exhibitons of or ginal prints.Books walkedand crawledaroundhousing
are durable,and the imagesreman as I tracts for the next 25 years,turningout
sequencedthem. Books don't get bro more of somethingthat I alreadyknew
ken up and sold separately,as bodies now to maKe.
of my work so often have been. MH When the "New Topograph
MH Do books providevlewers a bet- ics" exh bitionfirstopened,you were
te r oppor t unit yt o u n d e rs ta n dw h a t a readyshowingin ga leriesand Tnuse
you were up to? ums. Did the exhibitionchangethe way
LB I believeso. lt was only when I did a peop e lookedat photographs,and
retrospective exhibitionat PS.1 [in New yours ln particuar?
Yorkl in 1990that I gavea lot of thought LB lt was branding,really.Peopleseem
to installlngwork on the wa l. In a book, to be able to receiveinformationmuch
it's a ways one thing afteranother,after more easilywhen it's been put together
another,after another,which can make in a packageand labeledfor them.
a very uninteresting galleryexperience. MH Dld that packagingopen up oppor-
Or sometimesa very interestlngone, tunitiesfor each of you, or did lt mean
because t's so damn austere. rnaLarr srs r the show we'e faLedto be
MH l'm fascinatedwlth people'slevels lumpedtogetherin a group?
of w llingnessto pay attenton to photo- LB Whilewe knew and respectedeach
Park Ctt\/N,1 19i9.
graphson a wall,partlcuarlysmal ones. other'swork, we hardlyknew each gc ai. s ver pr nt
LB lt worksin certains tuations,when other.We weren'ta group.We dldn't slreetI by l0 nclr-os
theres alreadyvererarionand a reve go out dr nk ng, hang out, go on vaca
encefor the work. f you put 30 early tions together,sharestudios,swap
Wa ker Evanspieces up in a straightI ne w ves you know,none of those great
on a wall and in the most unaffectedway, "traditional"th ngs that characterlzed
peoplew I probablyspendtime looklng movementsfrom the lnrpressionists to work, but not enough to constitute
at each one, becausethey have a ready the AbstractExpressionist painters. w hat you' d cal l an audi ence.
madeup the r mjndsthat thiswork is MH Wheredid supportfor the New MH W hat n' adeyou go' o G eo"gaf asl-
important,even beforethey'veseen it. Topographicswork come from? The man Housew th the work?
MH Wereyou evertemptedto sizeyour aud ence nterestedin ook ng at and LB At that t me, there were only two
printsdifferentlythan you did? ta king about pictureswas certa nly dif- p aces to show work. One was East
LB No, not until I did. ferent30-odd yearsago. man House.Van DerenCoke,the new
MH A nd t hen,why d d y o u ? L B T h e audi encew as i nfi ni tesi ma, directorthere,likedmy work, bought
LB Becauseby the mid '80s I was get- almost nonexstent.The photogra- it and showed t. Threeyoung curators
t ng tiredof what I was do ng. I wanted p h y a u di encedi dr' l i ke i t. oerhaps there-Bil Jenkins,who curated"New
to see what elsewas possible.I d dn't becausethey mlstakeny beljevedit Topographlcs," Tom Barrowand Bob
realze untilthe end of the 'Bosthat I'd was addressedto them, and lt clearly Sobieszek-were nterestedin anythng
used up my own abl ty to work with thai wasn't. lthink they resentedthat. they perceivedto be a radica departure
k nd of subject.l'd been looking nto an Therewere occasionalpeople,some from what was being done.
abyss'or 25. 30 yea's.And it was star' a rti s tsand deal ers,w ho l ked the MH f EastmanHousein Fochesterwas
IIN .T AR]lY AR r N A [ 1 E i t C / 1] ! :