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gavthewelder

Nov 16 2009, 04:55 PM

hi does any 1 have any info that i can look at as to the comparison between the 2 codes as i have 1 coding wich is just bsen 287 and also have 1 that is bsen 287 / asme dual coding just a bit confused as to the criteria that each weld has to meet to be considered for either coding also i was always under the impression that asme 9 was the 1 to go for. but since then have been told that bsen287 is a more desirable coding ????? getting confused now cheers chaps

Paul2004 Gav,

Nov 16 2009, 05:52 PM

Which code really depends on the intended use, you will have different qualification ranges for diameters, thickness ranges etc.... ASME code is generally better for Pipe work. Regards, Paul.

gavthewelder thanks paul

Nov 16 2009, 06:13 PM

well the thing is i have done both codings on 2 inch pipe with 8 mm wall in 6g position i was told that asme allows for more porosity than what the bs coding does ??? Boilerbuster Nov 16 2009, 06:21 PM

BS 287-1 won't be off much use in the offshore, oil &gas branch and then again ASME IX won't be off much use in power station work for eg. The codeing you need depends on what branch you are working in, ASME IX and AWS D1.1 are for offshore, EN287-1 is for the rest. Most companys nowadays in the offshore branch, will give you a dual codeing and sometimes a triple codeing, (ASME IX, AWS D1.1, EN287-1) as the extra costs are minimal. Why they add the EN 287-1 part, I do not Know, maybe someone

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else could answer that one!

rat 1

Nov 16 2009, 07:14 PM

well the asme only lasts for 6 months but en 287 last for 2 years which are the ones that alstom use for powerstations,rat 1 d.plater Nov 16 2009, 09:08 PM

Hi all, I'm a plater (Hiss!!!) but I've previously held asme 1x / bs4872 for pipe (6"carbon, e7018 root+cap) I'm a reasonably good tig-hand in ally + s/s . My sitesafety p/port has expired , so I asked job-centre(???) to cough for it (125+vat=147+travel exp.s)' They've said that,because I live in "a deprived area" I can have 1000 +exp.s towards job-related training (happy days!) my question is.....where can I do 2"s/s + 6"carbon tig root in U.K. for a Grand (tops) Cheers,Jeff skaginn Nov 16 2009, 10:29 PM

Hi gavthewelder In short the most desirable welding qualification is the one that the Man wants at the time and sods law says you have not got it or worse it ran out last week. The long answer to your Question . ASME IX (American Society of Welding Engineers Boiler and Pressure Vessel code) is an American Code mostly used for pipe work on oil related work in the UK. AWS D1.1 also an American code is used for Structural work EN 287 is a European Code and covers both structural and pipe work. ASME IX is the most misunderstood welding qualification used. ASME IX is a code designed to enable accredited fabrication companies to qualify their own procedures and welders without the need for third party Independent Inspection bodies i.e. Lloyds,DNV Because of this, according to ASME IX you cant get an ASME IX Cert from an independent test centre unless the company who you are going to work for has a welding inspector present during the test. Quoted from ASME IX 2004 QW-300.2 (a) The basic premises of responsibility in regard to welding are contained within QW103 and Qw-301.2. These paragraphs require that each manufacturer or contractor (an assembler or an installer is to be included within this premise) shall be responsible for conducting tests to qualify the performance of welders and welding operators in accordance with qualified Welding Procedure Specifications, which his organisation employs in the construction of weldments built with the Code. The purpose of this requirement is to ensure that the manufacturer or contractor has determined that his welders and welding operators using his procedures are capable of developing the minimum requirements specified for an acceptable weldment. This responsibility cannot be delegated to another organisation. (b) The welders or welding operators used to produce such weldments shall be tested under full supervision and control of the manufacturer, contractor, assembler, or installer during the production of these test weldments. It is not permissible for the manufacturer, contractor, assembler, or installer to have the welding performed by another organisation. The anomaly is that a test centre can qualify you using ASME IX as a guide and have it

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stamped by an independent Inspection authority, this only proves that you can weld to the ASME IX code it does not qualify for the job you are going to do. To qualify for the job you must test for the company or your first production welds must be examined by radiography then you are qualified to ASME IX. The main advantage of this code is that if you are an accredited fabrication company is they can have a pool of proven welders and not have the expense of outside inspection and continual testing every time you rehire or wish to qualify on different materials, they just qualify on the job also you can conduct your own welding procedures. BSEN 287 The basic difference is that EN 287 when witnessed by a recognised inspection authority e.g. Lloyds, DNV then you can work for any employer using that code and they can hire you without further testing. EN 287 can be used on piping and structural work. Welding Positions The positions Qualified are virtually the same just the different identification numbers i.e. 6G and HL045 (JL045) Material EN 287 uses groups 1-11 ASME uses P numbers 1-11 these are similar. There are other numbers and groups but these are the most common Diameters EN 287 Pipe Diameter < 25mm = D to 2 D Pipe Diameter > 25mm = 0.5D (25mm Min) and above ASME Pipe Diameter <25mm = Size welded and above Pipe Diameter 25mm-73mm = 25mm and above Pipe Diameter >73 = 73 and above Thickness EN 287 t < 3mm, = t to 3mm t >= 3mm, = 3mm and above ASME Thickness refers to the thickness of weld not the material and is too confusing for me to explain any help is welcome Renewal of Qualification ASME You need to weld according to the code within 6 months. According to the code the cert not transferable to another employer unless he was present at original test. EN 287 Valid for 2years, providing that the welders supervisor can confirm that every six month period the welder has been working within his range of qualification. After 2 years it may be prolonged for periods of 2 years by examining body , on the basis of satisfactory evidence from volumetric testing on at least two items of work. Qualification can be transferred provided it is stamped accordingly. J

Jack flash

Nov 16 2009, 10:55 PM

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D.plater where do you live, might help the guys to point you in the right direction, Skaggin that's a brilliant answer! 3.2 Inspector Material EN 287 uses groups 1-11 ASME uses P numbers 1-11 these are similar. Are you sure? Look for material group 6.4 according to the EN stadards. Now go and find the ASME designation for P91/P92 In general terms, EN 287 is more stringent than ASME IX 3.2 martin08 Nov 17 2009, 12:35 PM Nov 17 2009, 03:45 AM

Interesting. I have not read ASEM IX. without the need for third party Independent Inspection bodies Is it expected that a company that requires ASMe qualifications have their own test lab? It would have to be a major company to be able to do it all in house. Are the quality requirements the same? It would be a good idea if welders certs had both ranges of qualification on them.

skaginn

Nov 17 2009, 08:41 PM

Hi 3.2 When I said similar I meant similar in the way that EN 287 and ASME IX qualify a similar range of materials in one welder qualification. It did not merit a detailed explanation because the welder has little control over the grade or P number he has been given for a qualification. The only thing a welder can hope for is that if he is paying for a test then the tester provides him with the optimal grade to give him the widest possible range. "Look for material group 6.4 according to the EN standards." 9Cr-1Mo-V, actually this is ISO 15608 think it is the same "Now go and find the ASME designation for P91/P92" After almost 1 hr of me and my mate who has an ASME IX we give up, P91/92 is not there. Not one for missing a challenge I reverted to the internet. P numbers .com give me the answer P91 is indeed a grade of steel equivalent to Group 6.4. But P91 is the grade number; the ASME P number for this steel is 5B. I do appreciate that in your line of work (I assume you are what you name suggests) group or P numbers may be critical. But for a Welder Qualification it is more flexible i.e. in EN 287 A qualification using material in any of the Groups 4,5,6,7 Qualifies you for materials in groups 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9.1, and 11 J

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skaginn

Nov 17 2009, 10:15 PM

Hi martin08 Asme IX contains Standard Welding Proceedure Specifications which an acredited Fabricator may use. ASME lays down the QA/QC systems for the company. Dont know what the quality requirements are, and ASME IX is far too complicated for me to work out and I really dont think any inspector considers which code is being used when looking a weld or radiograph. I have a couple of old Quals one done to AWS & EN 287 and another done to AWS and ASME but these were company quals whos best interest was to get the max out of your time of production. I woul like to here from the inspectors who contribute to this site as to their interpratation of the ASME IX code.Are contracts done to this code or is it only used to Qualify welders? J

d.plater

Nov 17 2009, 10:39 PM

hi guys - sorry I forgot to mention where I live (Gwent, S.Wales) ...I've had a butchers at TWI website (Port Talbot centre) and it says no courses scheduled. Ratcatcher,I'll pm you back rodofgod Hi All! skaginn, Excellent post and some very interesting points! Contracts are typically done to a code such as ASME B31.3 or B31 .1 or to European codes such as the former EN 287. Although the owner can stipulate tests or weld preferences above what is covered in either. The ASME codes refer to ASME 9 for welder qualification, the same as EN 287 used EN 288 as it's approval code! EN 288 has been replaced by new EN ISO 15xxx for different materials, i.e 15609 for metallic materials! Regards Nov 17 2009, 11:35 PM

3.2 Inspector skaginn, My bad, I thought you meant the numbers were the same :/

Nov 18 2009, 04:44 AM

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3.2 Ballbearing Nov 18 2009, 07:22 AM

ROG, I think you may have got a bit confused there (or is there a different EN 287 that I haven't heard of). BS EN 287-1 is "Qualification test of Welders - Fusion Welding" BS EN 288 - 3 is "Specification and approval of welding procedures for metallic materials" ASME IX is a combination of the two. It is used for qualification of welding procedures and welders. None of these three codes/standards are "fabrication" codes/standards - you do not construct things using these codes. These are the most common ASME "fabrication" codes that use ASME IX for welding and welder qualification. ASME I - Power Boilers ASME III - Nuclear ASME VIII - Pressure vessels Then you have B31.1 (Power Piping) and B31.3 (Process Piping) that ROG has mentioned. Hope that clarifies, Cheers, BB nanjing Anybody got a copy of ISO 15608? martin08 what do you what to know nanjing material groupings in en 287 martin08 martin08 Nov 18 2009, 02:53 PM Nov 18 2009, 02:34 PM Nov 18 2009, 01:48 PM Nov 18 2009, 12:57 PM

With out typing for the rest of the day. What are the copyright rules on listing BSs up on forums anyway? Group Group Group Group Group Group Group Group Group Group 1 steels Below 360 yield 2 Thermo mech rolled steels below 460 yield, and precipitation steels not s/s 3 Quench and tempered steels 4 Low vanadium 5 Cr-Mo 6 High vanadium Cr-Mo-Ni 7 stainless steels 8 Austenitic stainless steels 9 Nickel alloys 10 Austenitic ferritic

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Group 11 steels with C 2.5 0.5 Each group is divided up to sub groups going up in either CEV or yield strength. 287 just refers to this. there are other lists for ally copper ect. nanjing Nov 18 2009, 03:02 PM

Thanks Martin08 it is 11:00pm here so I will look at this tomorrow. I think it is ok to quote from them but not to send the complete document to anyone as no one does anyway. rodofgod Hi All! BB, Most contracts in the UK are under either B31.1 or B31.3, these use ASME 9 as a weld qualification procedure. However, things get more complicated when using using EN regulations! Just so I make myself clear, ASME 9 is not a specification for production,just for testing. Neither is the former EN 287, it is just for testing! EN 288 was a fabrication code that has now been superseded! Sorry if there was any confusion! Nov 19 2009, 12:23 AM

Regards 3.2 Inspector rodofgod. I think you just added more confusion now. Neither is the former EN 287, it is just for testing! EN 288 was a fabrication code that has now been superseded! EN 287-1 is for qualifying welders, maybe that is what you meant by "testing" ? EN 288 series (now superseded) was for qualifying welding procedures. For fabrication of pipework you will need to use EN 13480 series. 3.2 gavthewelder think i opened a can ov worms here eh Nov 19 2009, 10:17 PM Nov 19 2009, 05:58 AM

rodofgod Hi All!

Nov 19 2009, 11:30 PM

3.2 Inspector, Correct! That is what I was, rather ineptly trying to say! I must have been having a 'blonde' moment!

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Thank you for your input. Regards godlikegenius Nov 20 2009, 07:22 AM

Hi all now just factor in the PED regs and how they impact on ASME and there is a huge can of worms.

3.2 Inspector

Nov 20 2009, 07:32 AM

Hi all now just factor in the PED regs and how they impact on ASME and there is a huge can of worms. How? It is no problem to CE mark an ASME produced vessel or piping system. 3.2 godlikegenius Nov 20 2009, 10:18 AM

Just try the two yearly prolongation of welders qualifications required by PED. In short they are talking about a "harmonised European Standard" and under this guide you will find that ASME and the code rules are hard to follow. An example is that you prolongate an asme welder qual on a process based assessment ie if the welder has used the process in the time frame he or she is qualified. Under this harmonised standard you require volumetric evidence in the last 6 months prior to the two year dead line. The harmonised standard is only implied and does not exsist but Lloyds are adament that this is the yard stick and will force the issue. I am at present at logger heads with to top man from said organisation and i will report back any forward progress. GLG 3.2 Inspector Read guidelines 6/1-13 Sorry, I am a bit busy right now. 3.2 Paul2004
QUOTE (godlikegenius @ Nov 20 2009, 11:18 AM)

Nov 20 2009, 11:28 AM

Nov 20 2009, 10:13 PM

Just try the two yearly prolongation of welders qualifications required by PED. In short they are talking about a "harmonised European Standard" and under this guide you will find that ASME and the code rules are hard to follow. An example is that you prolongate an asme welder qual on a process based assessment ie if the welder has used the process in the time frame he or she is qualified. Under this harmonised standard you require volumetric evidence in the last 6 months prior to the two year dead line. The harmonised standard is only implied and does not exsist but Lloyds are adament that this is the yard stick and will force the issue. I am at present at logger heads with to top man from said organisation and i will report back any forward progress. GLG

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Godlike, I think if you read ASME you will find that volumetric prolongation is not required, the "employer" is required to sign the qualification every six months to declare that the employee has been welding inline with the qualification ranges. EN287 however does require volumetric testing aftter a 2 year period. Regards, Paul. nanjing Nov 21 2009, 02:14 AM

I think it is not so straight forward when you start considering work that comes under PED. Above Category 1 a Notified Body must be involved. Examinations may be done in part by a Third Party Organisation who must be recognised by the Member State, cannot just be anyone. However the Notified Body must be involved and cannot full delegate all of this to the RTPO. ASME recognised this a long time ago and issued a 122 page document entitled "Guide for ASME Stamp holders- Use of ASME VIII Div 1 to meet the EC Pressure Equipment Directive (97/23/EC). For Cat II and above welders tests must comply with EN 287 (whis is still current). Do ASME welders test comply with EN 287? Both can be qualified using RT so differences in radiographic standards is splitting hairs. The big difference is in the witnessing,examination and prolongation as there is no requirement, I believe under the ASME IX code. If the work does not come under the PED I do see any great reason why you cannot use either EN or ASME and see no need for welders doing separate qualification tests. I have never had any problems with owners or Cerifying Authorities such as Lloyds accepting this. After all if there is any doubt ability can be verified on first production weld by RT.

gavthewelder thanks for that guys bit ov a long winded read tho lol godlikegenius

Nov 21 2009, 11:15 AM

Nov 22 2009, 09:20 PM

Paul2004 if you read my comment i said that ASME just requires you to whitness a welder using the process, but add the good old PED and it changes, as PED require two welds with volumetric evidence and these welds must be within the initial range of qualification except for diameter + or- 50% and some other , of which i forget at this time. As i said this is a difficult subject and i will let you know if i get ant resolution from Lloyds next week. 3.2 Inspector godlike, To the best of my knowledge the 2 year prolongation is not a PED requirement, it is a En 287 requirement. Even if you dont work/weld according to PED your certificate will be expired after 2 years. Nov 23 2009, 07:13 AM

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If my knowledge is wrong I would very much like a pointer to as where it is written in the directive. Please note that it is only cat. II and above that the various procedures has to be approved by a RTO, which means you can do welding according to PED cat. I without PED approved procedures/certificates. 3.2 rodofgod Hi All! Interesting point raised by godlike! I too have noticed a more hands on approach to welding qualification by our nobo over the last few months! Regards Nov 23 2009, 11:06 PM

nanjing

Nov 24 2009, 02:42 PM

3.2 Inspector, you have just reiterated what I was saying. I take it you must do a lot of work falling under this European Directive? nanjing Nov 24 2009, 02:53 PM

Godlikegenius (now there's a name!). Why are you waiting for Lloyds for a resolution? They do not make the rules on this. If you know what is required you tell them! Most (and I am not picking on Lloyds) do not have an in depth understanding of the requirements. 3.2 Inspector >Yes, I work alot according to PED. 3.2 3.2 Inspector LOL My above post is on part of what I wrote. 3.2 nanjing Nov 24 2009, 03:37 PM Nov 24 2009, 03:26 PM Nov 24 2009, 03:07 PM

You have a very good understanding, I mean conveying it in English, most on the forum are English but do not have the grasp you have on this subject. 3.2 Inspector Nov 25 2009, 07:50 AM

Knowledge on PED really comes with experience and it is a constant learning curve. I have taken my share of "defeats" in the past.

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3.2 Inspectorgadget Nov 29 2009, 11:55 AM

Hi 3.2 I am involved in a new build gas compressor station. It is being constructed to ASME B 31.8 but must also meet the requirements of PED. B 31.8 states that all pipe butt welds over 6" in diameter must be subject to 100% radiography. There is nothing stated to say radiography is required on butt welds under 6". Would this still be in line with the requirements of PED ? 3.2 Inspector Nov 29 2009, 03:28 PM

I would say "yes" If the design standard is B1.8, the requirements of 31.8 must be fulfilled. I would verify it with the NoBo. 3.2 nanjing Nov 29 2009, 04:33 PM

I would be careful. I recently was involved in a project that had four four large LPG gas bullets designed and fabricated in India to ASME VIII abd signed off as being compliant eith PED. They however did not comply with specific French hydrocarbon regulations and it cost several million euros to put right. So much for the EC dictate of creating equalisation in the community! rodofgod Hi All! nanjing, If the gas bullets complied with PED regs, should not of any extra criteria been mentioned in the client specifications? I'm not familiar with French hydrocarbon regulations but am very familiar with French working practices and their various means of interpretation !! Can you elaborate? Regards Nov 29 2009, 11:56 PM

Inspectorgadget

Nov 30 2009, 07:03 AM

Thanks for your replys. I just find it strange that diameter of pipe is being used as a yard stick for radiography and not a percentage of lines or systems. I would of thought at least 10% of the lines under 6" would be liable for radiography. If anyone else has any thoughts on this it would be appreciated. Cheers. 3.2 Inspector I will try.... First we must keep in mind that any percentage NDT of a particular line is not to verify Nov 30 2009, 08:37 AM

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the integrity of the line, it is rather to verify that the welders are able to make sound welds according to acceptance criteria. Remeber, when working according to EN standards the specified NDT apply to each welder welding to a given WPS. Whenever diameter is the determening factor when specifying NDT it is usually related to safety. As the pipe gets bigger, more gas, steam or hot oil will consequently come out of the pipe in case of failure. Look at EN 13480-5, 8.2.1 e), there is a small equation relating to PS * DN when dealing with steam and superheated water. In some cases you will find that a 2" main steam bypass line operating at 580 degrees C will require less NDT than a DN 150 auxillary steam line operating at lower temperatures. Having said this, I also find the way ASME B31.8 deals with NDT a bit strange. 3.2 Ballbearing Nov 30 2009, 09:09 AM

Inspectorgadget, Would be interesting to know why they are building to that code. B31.8 states "B31.8 does not apply to.......piping in oil refineries or natural gasoline extraction plants, gas treating plant piping other than the main gas stream piping in dehydration, and all other processing plants installed as part of a gas transmission system, gas manufacturing plants, industrial plants or mines. (See other applicable sections of the ASME code B31) Would it not fall under B31.3 Process Piping ? Cheers, BB Inspectorgadget Nov 30 2009, 02:57 PM

First of all thanks for all your input. One thing I forgot to mention that this compressor station is being constructed in Romania! Although technically Romania is now in Europe they seem to use their own legislation when it suits them. If ayone hs worked in Romania they will no what I mean! Ballbearing: This was my first question when I first arrived on the job in September, and I am still of the same opinion that it should be B31.3, but the "Design Experts" are having none of it, as far as they are concerned they are right! B31.8 also states that the acceptance criteria for welded joints is API 1104, which is also a joke! 3.2 Inspector Nov 30 2009, 03:10 PM

How will they CE mark the unit, when they obviously don't follow the design standard. (considering what ballbearing wrote) 3.2 Good luck with this one...

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