wiring pid controller circuit

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wiring pid controller circuit

dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

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06-25-2011, 05:15 PM I am building a heat treat furnace and need help with the wiring. I have this very nice diagram of how the curcuit is wired but I still have a few questions. Please forgive my stupidity (learning) the picture of the wiring is at the bottom of the pdf http://www.e3b6a5y.com/365/WiringDia...w2006power.pdf On the diagram, where the heating element is wired to PID and the power cord. How does one make this 3 way connection? My power cord to plug is 3 core flex. Again on the diagram there is another 3 way connection between SSR output, PID and power cord. Another loose end (har har) I have is my earth in the power cord? Does not seem to be any where to connect this wire. I need an earth is the circuit don't I? Another problem I have also got a non contact (magnetic) interlock which I am unsure how it would fit into the circuit. Any advise much appreciated Look forward to a reply Last edited by dve256; 06-25-2011 at 05:17 PM..

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Resqueline Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,623

06-25-2011, 11:59 PM It's quite simple really, see attached picture for one practical wiring example. Attached Thumbnails

06-26-2011, 08:59 AM dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21 Quote: Originally Posted by Resqueline It's quite simple really, see attached picture for one practical wiring example.

Thanks Resqueline you are a genius, just to be sure you have used the 2 wires coming from the interlock to bridge -ssr to -PID? I like it! I was going to do something different, and probably incorrect so I am really glad to have come on here. Now I can see how it should go yeah it does seem easy and I can see how the current will flow around and connect the parts. 06-26-2011, 12:00 PM Resqueline Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,623 Quote: Originally Posted by dve256 you have used the 2 wires coming from the interlock to bridge -ssr to -PID? Yes. I expected it to be an ordinary closed-when-closed door switch. It could sit in either wire going to the SSR.

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dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

06-28-2011, 08:14 PM Just finished wiring it all up and tested, pluged it in and the PID came on. Once I figured how to set the temp and all the output light came on for a couple of seconds and then house power went off. In those couple seconds the inside of the kiln had become warm so it sure was heating fast. All I can think is maybe its wired wrongly or more likely drawing too much power. The element is rated 3220W. Is there anything I can do to test this or something? Any ideas. 06-28-2011, 08:40 PM There could be two reasons for the power going off. 1. Too high a current. At 230V you will need 14A, at 110V abot 30A. 2. Leakage to earth due to insulation that has absorbed moisture since the furnace was last used.

duke37 Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Derbyshire. UK Check what had tripped the house system, whether it was an Posts: 607 overcurrent trip or an earth leakage trip.

dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

06-28-2011, 10:17 PM thanks for the reply, the breaker for the garage did not go down it was the middle power breaker switch that was down in the fuse box. Does that help? So how do I find out if its an over current trip or earth leakage trip? Will try testing it again, this time from points in the house to see if it does the same. (when everyone is out..) This is a newly built kiln so I don't think moisture is an issue? 06-28-2011, 10:33 PM

dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

Quote: Originally Posted by duke37 1. Too high a current. At 230V you will need 14A, at 110V abot 30A. Oh ok so it will work at 30A to sort of make up for the lower volt supply? So maybe if I get a 40A SSR instead of the 25A SSR that might sort it on a 110V supply?

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duke37 Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Derbyshire. UK You do not say how the furnace is constructed. If the heating element Posts: 607 is laid in grooves in the ceramic bricks, then earth leakage is possible. If the ceramics are new, they will have picked up some moisture which should evaporate when the furnace is first heated. Earth leakage will increase again when the ceramics get really hot.

06-29-2011, 12:04 AM I have never worked with 110V which from your reply I assume you have. You will need some massive cables and they must not be overloaded. Do not change to a 40A breaker unless the cables are up to the job.

dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

06-29-2011, 07:41 AM yes you are correct the element is layed in groved in insulating fire bricks but the bricks feel very dry so I don't think that could be the problem. If I streched out the element would that make the resistance higher and current lower? I am not entirely sure of how it works, ie what makes it rated 3220W? How else can one change the ammount of amps?

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TBennettcc Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Cape Coral, FL, USA Posts: 291

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06-29-2011, 08:03 AM Hmm. I was going to answer, but I see I'm in over my head here. Some reading material: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5608 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heating_element http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_heating ...the first of which is probably the most relevant. I'll be watching this thread closely... Timothy D. Bennett B.S. in Computer Science from FGCU General Class Ham Radio License (KJ4MUY) I love to learn about anything and everything. Bring it on!

06-29-2011, 08:17 AM dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21 I have just tryed pluging in, in the house, 240V. This time the output came on for about 20 seconds then power went off, didn't expect that Here is a pic of the inside of the kiln, maybe my spirals are too tightly packed, if the spiral touched itself around corners ect. would that cause this because there are a few bits that get awfully tight together

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Thanks for the links, it is quite a complicated issue, especially as this is my first project in electrics. I will keep trying to understand it. Last edited by dve256; 06-29-2011 at 09:14 AM..

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duke37 Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Derbyshire. UK You seem to have made a neat job of the construction. Quite ambitious for a first project. Posts: 607 In order to reduce the power, the resistance of the element needs to be increased. This can be done by lengthening it or making it of thinner wire. The odd touching turn should not make too much difference although an even spread of turns means that the temperature is uniforn and you do not get hot spots which could burn out. You should try to spread the turns a little in the corners since the heat will not be able to escape so easily from there, At low temperatures, the element may have significant temperature differences along its length but at high temperatures these tend to reduce since radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the power of four. You cannot tell if there is moisture in the ceramic just by looking at it. How much moisture is there in a peanut, 10% or 20% ?

06-29-2011, 10:25 AM What country are you in? What power voltages do you have? The power is determined by the resistance of the element and the voltage of the supply. If you have 110V and 230V, then run it on 110V which will give about a quarter of the power and half the current which the higher voltage will give.

06-29-2011, 11:33 AM dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21 Quote: Originally Posted by duke37 What country are you in? What power voltages do you have? The power is determined by the resistance of the element and the voltage of the supply. If you have 110V and 230V, then run it on 110V which will give about a quarter of the power and half the current which the higher voltage will give. I am in UK, voltage is 240V in house, I guess as the power went off on both attempts (in garage socket and house socket) the power in the garage is maybe 240V as well. Which would be good as its what I need. Not sure why it stayed on for longer the second time around though (house socket). Quote: Originally Posted by duke37 You cannot tell if there is moisture in the ceramic just by looking at it. How much moisture is there in a peanut, 10% or 20% ? The bricks I bought second hand so I guess its hard to say if they contain moisture. Well I think I am going to try making new chanels and streching the element, as it does seem quite tightly packed to look at it. It came unstreched at 50cm I streched it to 140cm as it said to strech it out to 2-3 times. However I have seen other peoples heat treat ovens online and some seem to have their coils much more spaced out. Will post back once I have modified frankinsteins coil and retested. 06-29-2011, 02:11 PM duke37 Senior Member Stretching the coil will not add to the length of the wire so will not affect the resistance, I would not mess up your bricks by modifying the element. You have approx 230V in all parts of your estate, the difference between the on times could be due to the fact that you are probably going through two different breakers. Join Date: Jan 2011 Note that to get the power that is specified, you need 14A and this is above the 13A allowed from a power plug. When I worked for an electrical power company we were only allowed to pull Location: Derbyshire. UK 8A through a normal socket, this was considered the safe limit. Posts: 607 You have two options:1. Add about 50% more wire to drop the current to more like 10A. 2. Connect it up to a dedicated circuit like a cooker supply. This will run up to 30A. 06-29-2011, 03:52 PM Oh ok, only seen your message now and have already stretched the coil into a longer shape, nevermind its done now and I think it will improve the heat dispersion hopefully. Will post a pic later. So the element was 50ft (15m) so I need another 8m(50% extra wire) of heat resistant wire? I have no more room in the kiln for more elements so I assume you are saying add the wire into the circuit on the outside, as in normal wiring. Please clarify, even after lengthening the circuit then your saying the plug is under rated? Many thanks for your help!
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dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

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06-29-2011, 04:58 PM dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21 I have just tested it again and its running atm and the power is still on wtf yes! Stretching it seems to have done it? Is the output always at 1 level (full power) or should I expect increases in amps? Heres a pic of the kiln ON!

KEWL! Last edited by dve256; 06-29-2011 at 05:01 PM..

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06-29-2011, 07:29 PM duke37 Senior Member To get a current of 10A you need a resistance of about 25 ohms. Measure the resistance of the element you have and then work out how much extra length you need. You must not have the extra element outside the furnace as it will get very hot and you will need to put it in an earthed box with a fan to keep it cool. It worries me that you appear to have one end of your element outside the furnace. This looks very dodgy to me.

Join Date: Jan 2011 Use a digital meter to measure the resistance of the element and let us know what it is. Location: Derbyshire. UK Posts: 607 06-29-2011, 09:48 PM It appears this is a home-made furnace, right? If so, it looks like you wound your own heating element. You said that stretching the element fixed the problem, so it's possible what happened is that you had some of the element shorted out, reducing the resistance of the load and thus drawing too much current. Ideally, the first thing to do before winding the heating element is to accurately measure the room temperature resistance. This lets you calculate the resistance per unit length, a useful number to know. Then, after winding the element with a known amount of wire, you'd again measure the resistance to make sure there were no shorts in it. You can make these measurements pretty accurately with two $5 Harbor Freight digital multimeters (i.e., make a Kelvin measurement with a battery). Personally, I don't like exposed elements like that in a furnace, but sometimes it can't be helped. If you're using it for heat treating metals, then you'll probably be keeping the door closed most of the time. I would make sure there's a safety interlock switch that shuts the power off if the door is opened (use e.g. a double pole relay to shut off both legs of the power). The reason is that it's also tempting to use such a furnace as a forge, meaning you might reach in there with metal tongs to grab a piece of metal. If you touch the heating element in the right place, you might get a fatal shock. I'd also make sure it was on a circuit with a ground fault interrupter breaker or outlet. If you're unsure of some of this stuff, it would pay to have a licensed electrician come in and check things out for you. Sure, this stuff will cost extra money, but the total cost would be much less than a hospital visit or funeral costs. I don't see a gas connector on it -- are you going to make it into an inert gas oven? That would be nice for helping to keep the scale off things. 06-29-2011, 11:03 PM duke37 Senior Member You ask Is the output always at 1 level (full power) or should I expect increases in amps?

daddles Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: US Posts: 429

The output will drop somewhat as the temperature rises since the resistance will rise with temperature. The variation will depend on the material of the wire, you can probably find this on the Join Date: Jan 2011 web or get the information from your wire supplier. Location: Derbyshire. UK Posts: 607 Looks like the loading will drop by 6 to 10% on heat up. (Nichrome) Last edited by duke37; 06-29-2011 at 11:10 PM.. Reason: Info added

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dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

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06-29-2011, 11:27 PM Quote: Originally Posted by duke37 You must not have the extra element outside the furnace as it will get very hot and you will need to put it in an earthed box with a fan to keep it cool. It worries me that you appear to have one end of your element outside the furnace. This looks very dodgy to me. Thats not what I meant by heat resistant wire on the outside.. I mean use wire able to resist heat say 200C rated. not, a resistance element wire. So even now I have the kiln working without fault (ok, just for 30mins) do I need to add to the circuit as you suggest? Not sure what part you are looking at but its a pretty standard way of doing it the element is attached on the inside to bolts which come through the back of the kiln and connected with heat resistant wire. This is then housed to prevent touching the live stuff. The thing hanging down is the thermocouple There is a interlock which kills the power of the element when the door is open which resquline kindly helped me with the wiring, thank you. Quote:

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Originally Posted by daddles You said that stretching the element fixed the problem, so it's possible what happened is that you had some of the element shorted out, reducing the resistance of the load and thus drawing too much current. Yes it is working after stretching it out more. How would a 'short' occur in this curcuit? (or 'a' circuit) Pretty pleased with the fact that is working really, however if its potentially a fire risk because of to much amps? then clearly I would need to think about modifying it. But if the draw is too high won't it cut the power rather than cause a fire? I know if your wiring cannot handle the current then it can cause a fire but I have used thick enough wires only the plug is possibly under spec. to find the current W/E=I ... so 3220(W)/240(V) = 13.416666(Amps) to find the resistance E/I=R ... so 240(V)/13.416666(Amps) = 17.888199(Ohms) find current W/R=I 240(V)/17.888199(ohms) = 13.416666(Amps) multimeter says 15.1Ohms. Sorry for the long post just trying to answer others questions and ask a few of my own. Last edited by dve256; 06-30-2011 at 12:12 AM..

06-30-2011, 12:31 AM duke37 Your latest picture shows a curly wire top right, I thought this was Senior Member part of the element, apparently not. Your equations are right but you have started at the wrong end, you have relied on the supplier giving you wire to the exact specification, Join Date: Jan 2011 wire can differ a bit in diameter and resistance from nominal. Location: Derbyshire. UK So I=V/R = 240/15 = 16 A Posts: 607 P=V*V/R = 240*240/15 = 3840 W Heat resistant insulation on the wire connecting to the furnace is a must and should be rated at say 30A to keep the wire heating low. Its well past my bedtime now, so will leave it with you.

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06-30-2011, 12:42 AM daddles Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: US Posts: 429 Quote: Originally Posted by dve256 Yes it is working after stretching it out more. How would a 'short' occur in this curcuit? (or 'a' circuit) Pretty pleased with the fact that is working really, however if its potentially a fire risk because of to much amps? then clearly I would need to think about modifying it. But if the draw is too high won't it cut the power rather than cause a fire? I know if your wiring cannot handle the current then it can cause a fire but I have used thick enough wires only the plug is possibly under spec. Imagine one turn of the helix. Now imagine the two ends of this one turn touching each other. That's one type of a short and that length of the helix would be shorted out. You probably would have noticed a bunch of them shorted together (would have looked like an extension spring with the coils touching). Still, having some shorted coils is the only hypothesis I can think of that explains the working after stretching. There is no fire risk if you sized the wires properly and your home is wired correctly (i.e., the circuit breaker doesn't allow more current than the wires of that branch circuit can handle. If I were you, I would make damned sure that everything is done properly with respect to your local laws and codes. In the US, if you wire something up and it's not done per the code requirements and causes a fire, your insurance company will refuse to reimburse you. And rightly so, since the fire was your fault due to negligence or ignorance. Thus, if your plug isn't the proper one, get the proper one. Many of the rules and regulations are in place because someone died because that rule wasn't previously in place. Overall, it looks like you did a nice job on the furnace. That's one I'd love to have in my own shop, as I occasionally heat treat tooling I make that's larger than I can do with a couple of torches. I'd also use it for case hardening -- about an hour ago I made a drill bushing; if I had a furnace, I'd make a bunch of them and case harden them all in one go.

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duke37 Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Derbyshire. UK Posts: 607 I suggest that you need to install a dedicated circuit and the regulations state the it must be installed by a registered person.

06-30-2011, 09:14 AM I have had a look at the mains specification, it can go up to 253V. 253/15 = 16.9A 253*16.9 = 4267W The garage is likely to be a on a fused spur and will be not happy with an overload.

06-30-2011, 01:51 PM Resqueline Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,623 Quote: Originally Posted by dve256 There is a interlock which kills the power of the element when the door is open which resquline kindly helped me with the wiring, thank you. Just be aware that there's still a potential for electric schock since the interlock doesn't break both phases. At least make sure that the SSR is breaking the Live wire. The initial center breaker (whatever that is) tripping may be due to several things. 1: Pure overload. The kiln draws a lot (as has been pointed out), and together with other (varying) loads in the house it could be too much for even the main breaker. 2: Moisture content in the bricks could trip a ground fault breaker (if that's what it is). After several attempts the resulting heat has driven out the moisture. 06-30-2011, 08:54 PM dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21 Quote: Originally Posted by duke37 I have had a look at the mains specification, it can go up to 253V. 253/15 = 16.9A 253*16.9 = 4267W The garage is likely to be a on a fused spur and will be not happy with an overload. I suggest that you need to install a dedicated circuit and the regulations state the it must be installed by a registered person.
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Is there no other way to fix the problem? What if more wire is added to the circuit as you previously suggested? I do have a 200A tig welder which I am only able to use up to about 2/3 power before the fuse goes in the plug of the welder. Maybe I could kill 2 birds with 1 stone? Could I change to an industrial plug on the kiln? do those industrial outlets work with 240V as we have duduced thats what the kiln system needs. 06-30-2011, 08:58 PM dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21 Quote: Originally Posted by Resqueline Just be aware that there's still a potential for electric schock since the interlock doesn't break both phases. At least make sure that the SSR is breaking the Live wire. The initial center breaker (whatever that is) tripping may be due to several things. 1: Pure overload. The kiln draws a lot (as has been pointed out), and together with other (varying) loads in the house it could be too much for even the main breaker. 2: Moisture content in the bricks could trip a ground fault breaker (if that's what it is). After several attempts the resulting heat has driven out the moisture. Please clarify are you saying the door interlock is not going to kill the power and I can still get a shock off the element when the door is open, I don't understand. 06-30-2011, 09:49 PM You have not clarified whether the trip was due to overcurrent or earth leakage, this must be done. If your welder blows a fuse before the trip goes off, then you are likely to have an earth leakage problem with the furnace.

duke37 Senior Member

Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Derbyshire. UK To get under the 13A limit, you will need another 5 ohm of wire but Posts: 607 10 ohm would give a bit of leeway. This will reduce the rate of temperature rise of the furnace. You will need a registered installer to upgrade your supply.

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dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21

06-30-2011, 11:43 PM I am not sure why the first 2 times it tripped but maybe it was as daddles explained the coils touching around the corners shorting out some curcuit. Or possibly an earth leakage because of moisture would make sense. Similarly to when I use the welder the light dims a little for the kiln also. Can you tell me where I add the wire in on the circuit just so I am sure, thanks. the wiring diagram is on page1. Last edited by dve256; 06-30-2011 at 11:50 PM.. 07-01-2011, 09:55 AM Identifying the breaker that tripped will tell you & us what happened. How many Amps is it, or is it rather a ground fault interrupter? Some shorted turns in a few corners might have increased the Amp draw a little but imho can't explain the big change you've got in run time. Interlock: I've added colors to the wires. Blue is Neutral and is always safe to touch, red is Live and is always unsafe. Purple is the wire that needs to be unpowered with kiln open. If you can positively identify & connect Live & Neutral exactly as shown the kiln should be safe enough. If not then you'll need to add a contactor. The extra piece of heater wire is added inside the kiln, neccessitating an extra coupling point (orange) to splice the wires. Attached Thumbnails

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Show Printable Version Email this Page Display Modes Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode Posting Rules You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are Off Forum Rules Similar Threads Thread Help me fix this oven controller circuit please!! See schemativ Re: Help me fix the oven controller circuit please!! See schematic Thread Starter David Nugent Forum Electronic Basics Replies 1 Last Post 07-20-2003 08:30 PM 07-20-2003 02:16 AM

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07-01-2011, 11:12 AM Quote: Originally Posted by Resqueline Blue is Neutral and is always safe to touch Eeek! Unless you have an active/neutral fault somewhere that has reversed them. Always treat both as live! Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Mid way between Beijing and the the Ronne Ice Shelf (mind your projection) ...and don't call me Sir! Posts: 5,426

07-01-2011, 05:49 PM Resqueline Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,623 07-01-2011, 11:45 PM dve256 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 21 Its the middle one that went off on the pic, earth protective device. says 80A Hehe, yes, it was a daring statement and of course you're right, one really shouldn't bet one's life that someone haven't made a (house) wiring error somewhere..

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Quote: Originally Posted by Resqueline If you can positively identify & connect Live & Neutral exactly as shown the kiln should be safe enough I dont understand your point, I have connect everything up as per diagram? Last edited by dve256; 07-01-2011 at 11:48 PM..

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duke37 Senior Member

07-02-2011, 10:41 AM Is that the one with the red button which probably says test? There should be a label saying the fault current for trip, probobly 0.03A. If this is the one which has tripped, then you have earth leakage on your furnace. You could try blowing into the furnace with a fan heater to dry the bricks.

With regard to the live and neutral, you must not assume that everything is wired and working correctly. As it stands, you are breaking the line only (if nothing fails) and the neutral is still Join Date: Jan 2011 connected. This should be safe but I have known the neutral to rise to 80V due to a fault in the supply transformer, You should include a motor contactor with a start button and stop button so Location: Derbyshire. UK that you need to start the furnace when it is loaded. The door switch would be connected as a remote stop. A light across the furnace supply should be added to show that power is on. Posts: 607 07-02-2011, 11:25 AM I have had another look at your picture, as far as I can tell it says 80A which is the current carrying capacity and 30mA which is the earth leakage trip level RCCB means residual current circuit breaker.

duke37 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Derbyshire. UK Posts: 607

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Re: Help me fix the oven controller circuit please!! See schematic

petrus bitbyter

Electronic Basics

07-20-2003 02:16 AM

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