Edmund Shockey What's all this nonsense about LA being the defending champions for the 2012 GayBowl?

Did I misread the final score of the LA vs NY game? I'm sure the final 4 teams would not agree. And I'm sure the finalists are not satisfied with a 4 way tie either. I can guarantee the New York Warriors are not. It means virtually nothing. ...See More Unlike Unfollow Post October 14, 2011 at 11:16am via mobile You, Miguel R. Labrego, Shawn Rea and 4 others like this. 50 of 87

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Jared, Seth & everyone else I apologize. I'm in a horrible emotional place and I need to back away from this page. I'm in a stage of anger & I need to meditate. I shouldn't have responded. The facts are that some of the best gay athletes competed in Houston. Since the aforementioned didn't play, I should have let it go. They didn't win any games, didn't get a chance to quit in any games, wasn't allowed to belittle any of his teammates, or berate the officials. Did anyone record their stats? The truth is the fact that people inside & outside of the tent refer to it as 'just gay football' is that there are issues from the past & the present that need to be mediated. I do not envy this board & member cities in finding solutions to these issues. Has anyone noted that many elite athletes play one time & never come back? I've played in predominantly hetero leagues with many of them & I can tell you why? There needs to be healing on all sides & a return to basics - a competitive, yet affirming competition, between gay & lesbians athletes of all skill levels. It shouldn't be an arms race to load up on hetero athletes, it shouldn't be pillaging other markets for talent, it shouldn't be running the score up on new teams, it shouldn't be treating the officials like scum and it shouldn't be athletes running around like the fate of civilization rests on a championship covered by one blog. October 20, 2011 at 12:18pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Jared, we've been going at it for almost 3 years. When he quit in the New York Warriors game because he wasn't getting the ball enough & we were up by 15 I expressed how people don't quit on teams I play on. October 20, 2011 at 12:20pm via mobile Like

David P. Donohue Guys, i've been pretty quiet on here and i've wanted to comment several times on several items on this thread but refrained to keep from fueling the fire and getting embroiled in a war of words, which as we have seen can go on indefinitely! At some point, a voice of sanity needs to sound out to just STOP! Instead of making snide, smart ass comments about how one city is better than another, how one player is better than another, what's more important to a person here and now or just derogatory comments in general, that are neither helpful nor solutions to the problem at hand, take a step back and ask how can you make it BETTER next time. I've played against either LA or San Diego in the 1st round of 5 of the 6 Gay Bowls South Florida has played in, starting with Dallas. A couple games were closer than others, but the vast majority were blowouts. Did we like getting beat 56-0 by San Diego this year? No. Do i think they ran up the score on us, No. Did they score on almost every posession, yeah, but was that wrong or unsportsmanlike of them? No. Did they have straight guys on the field, probably. Were those straight guys the reason they slaughtered us, NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. They just have a VERY TALENTED TEAM, 2 infact. As does LA and after every game they shook our hands, joked around with us and that night we all went out and had a great time, leaving the game on the field. And that is that. As for players being allowed or disallowed to play for another team, did i agree with the way it was handled? No. Do i agree with the way the cities voted? No. Do i think that Myan or ANY player should have the opportunity to play with a team of his/her choice, presuming they are eligible to play with their PAUGA team and it doesn't violate the rules governing that, ABSOLUTELY. That's why instead of bitching about the situation, i presented an impromptu solution, which the board used.I didn't agree with the result, but at least the issue was resolved for the time being. That is what this forum is for, CONSTRUCTION not DESTRUCTION. Yes, it is a venue to bring forth complaints and issues and hash them out, but not to cast blame or air someone's dirty laundry. I have only seen one post that recommended everyone let the teams involved and the board handle how the Championship is determined, if it is to be. Instead of the bickering, name calling, finger pointing and blaming that has gone on here, come up with a solution, an idea or 10 ideas that are ways to move forward and make it better for next time. If you're unhappy about something, by all means bring it up. Chances are, someone else is unhappy about it too, but be responsible and mature about how you present the problem, and be a part of the solution. I know it's cliche, but regardless of who's fault it is, unless there is a solution it's going to remain a problem. You can either keep it that way or help resolve it. As an example i'll go first: The NGFFL needs a better method of dispute resoltuion. Currently there isn't really anything provided for this in the By Law's (that may change with the new By Law's). I recommend some type of Judiciary committee that is independant of the board and would handle any and all disputes (like the Myan/Michigan issue). The details for the make up of the group, # of members jurisdiction, etc can be borrowed from other org's that have a similar body. Positions could be appointed by the board and confirmed by the members or simply nominated/voted on by the board or members. I'm sure the board can take care of the details but i am certainly willing to provide the framework/structure ive worked with in previous organizations. I brought this idea up a year or so ago but it never got anywhere. Maybe this time it will... I know things are not going to be rainbows and butterflies (or as Flo says "Unicorns and Glitter) all the time and we will have disputes and hurt feelings etc, but come on guys, we are adults and should try to set an examlpe for new members. It is bickering like this that turns new people away and validates unfair stereotypes. We are much better than this. October 20, 2011 at 1:30pm Unlike 7

Sam Smith I am new to flag football but this drama or type resides in all gay athletics that I have been involved in previously. I think all this drama is hilarious. I do not think anyone really cares if the 4 teams get together and compete because as of now it is a moot point and thee situation to deal with. As for the Myan situation. Silly. How about the board realize people pay their own way to these tourneys and expenses not the city they live in. We pay our own registration and so forth. If Myan was getting paid to play by Michigan then yes they should have to "RELEASE" him but they don't. No one person should have power like that over anyone in this. No city owns anybody. Just my opinion and sure someone will wax poetic about why they had this in place to begin with. all that being said, I had a blast at gay bowl playing partying and seeing people I know from other sports. Look forward to going to south Florida's tourney and enjoying that city.

October 20, 2011 at 1:52pm via mobile Like 4

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Sam Smith....I know you are Myan's friend and I would never get between the two of ya'll...hopefully, Myan and I will mesh this out before that time and I can take everyone down to SOBE for SHOTS, SHOTS, SHOTS at Palace Bar....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNtTEibFvlQ

LMFAO - Shots ft. Lil Jon www.youtube.com Music video by LMFAO performing Shots. (C) 2009 Interscope Records October 20, 2011 at 1:56pm Like

David P. Donohue Sam, you will enjoy it thoroughly!! October 20, 2011 at 1:56pm Like 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus I need a cocktail... October 20, 2011 at 1:58pm Like

Sam Smith @ David I am looking forward to it!!! I love south Florida. October 20, 2011 at 1:59pm via mobile Like 1

Scott Letz David, your proposal of a judiciary board is an intriguing idea. It may be too much to ask, but I would suggest that should such a board be pursued that the NGFFL look outside its own membership for its board members. Perhaps those involved in volleyball, basketball, etc would be willing to serve in such a capacity. The reason I mention this is that I believe much of everything going on is a direct result of two sides feeling wronged at different times. Ultimately, I feel the final vote had less to do with the actual bylaws (which I thought were rather clear) and more to do with personal agendas. A judiciary board made up of those involved in the NGFFL would still have individual agendas. It would be ideal if a truly impartial group would rule based on their reading and following of the bylaws. I can't help but believe that much of this would not be going on if written bylaws were followed. October 20, 2011 at 3:34pm Like 2

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Scott, I mainly concur with your statement. The by-laws were followed. Had one party not changed their vote and kept their vote in absentia. This would have never gotten to this point. Myan would have appealed the decision & without the unethical behavior, he probably would have been released. It was the unethical, cutthroat manner in which it happened. The sad part is that all of this could have been mediated. If Myan, Leeron & the current board all got together with a common goal, it could have been resolved. The outside influence wouldn't make a difference. As Myan, myself & other parties have relationships in the other sports. I remind you that entities from the NGBA & Softball were willing to note that Myan had enacted the exact situation in those sports. The facts are that any person can assemble any team to participate in any tourney but the GSB. The GSB is supposed to be the premier football tourney for gays & lesbians from the member cities. It isn't an invitational where assembled forces pull together. It isn't a championship that will change the lives of the winner. It is a gay flag football tourney under foreign rules. October 20, 2011 at 4:06pm via mobile Like

David P. Donohue Hey Scott, I think it would be great if we could get volunteers from other sports leagues in our member cities to serve on this type of committee to handle disputes but i think that might be pushing it. The way i had invisioned it was that it would be a 5 person committe with a chairperson, and N number of alternates. The 5 sitting members would each have one vote. In the event of a conflict of interest between an issue presented to the committee and one of the sitting members, that member would be required to abstain from voting and an alternative would vote in that place to maintain a 5 person voting body and prevent a tie. I think the by laws were clear as well, to a degree, just lacking in detail or procedural direction. And, yes, i agree if the initial board vote and been conducted differently the final result may have been different. I also feel that if it had been a different city involved or the parties involved and behaved differently, the outcome may have been different. More structured by laws and possibily a judiciary committee would have prevented the entire debacle as well as removed the burdon of this type of decision making from the board and allowed them to remain impartial. Hopefully, the new by laws in production will also include a provision addressing issues NOT covered by the by laws, such as, if something is not specifically addressed in the by laws, the board itself may determine a short term solution to the issue (until an ammendment can be voted on), poll the general membership for a short term solution or whatever they determine is the best method, etc... Regardless, any improvements will be big improvements in the existing by laws. October 20, 2011 at 4:57pm Like 2

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Seth Greenleaf....I must say it is good to see heteros that are positive forces in this movement. I commend you on trying to mediate this situation. You've been open to making things better...you rock! October 20, 2011 at 7:35pm Like

Myan Nolen You guys are right (Jared, David, and Seth). This personal verbal fight is for the birds. But at the same time. If this board is going to monitor the statements made on this page then do so equally. Don't let 1 irratte individual post nonsense and then when people respond you guys wanna keep the peace. Check the problem! I explored my rights given to me as an active member of this league. Like alot of other individuals. Regardless of race, talent, sex, or anything else the bylaws should be followed! Crybabys should be given pacifiers! Especially the 1s who cry wolf! I know I'm not liked by everyone in this league so what! Was not my goal! My goal is to be the best gay football player that I can be. But I do regardless of the situation expect to be treated the same as every other member of this league. And to Scott regardless of the board members outside or inside the league if there customs are to bend the bylaws then there is no hope for this league. October 20, 2011 at 7:40pm via mobile Like 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus We're on the same page, Myan Nolen...let's squash this and move on. I agree with many things that Scott and David P. Donohue stated. In fact, I had conversations with many of the board members, Seth and others attempting to resolve this situation before this bowl. There is truth to your points. Let's find solutions. As I have noted, Scott noted and David noted. Had people acted in an ethical matter from the beginning the result could have been different and all of this could have been averted. Unfortunately...that wasn't the case. I don't think anyone, in particular, has an issue with you. It is those that you followed for counsel. The people who will run their mouth about people behind their mouth but don't have the balls, like Steve Cramsie, does to do it in person. Anyways, I believe things can be resolved and worked out. October 20, 2011 at 7:52pm Like

Myan Nolen I followed Shane and Thurman's advice! I did exactly what they told me to do.. So if you have a issue with counsel then there you go have at them! October 20, 2011 at 8:26pm Like 1

Myan Nolen 0p-=\] -p[\ October 20, 2011 at 8:26pm Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus I'm lost.... October 20, 2011 at 8:27pm Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus I'm very lost.. October 20, 2011 at 8:27pm Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Myan Nolen...you followed Shane & Thurman's advice??? Something here is not computing... October 20, 2011 at 8:29pm Like

Myan Nolen The last statement was a typo. I went straight to the board. I didn't seek counsel from anyone else! Cyd didn't even know I was interested in playing for LA until after the fact. I had never met a LA player until Chicago. October 20, 2011 at 8:30pm Like

Scott Letz Myan, you are right. The bylaws need to be followed and not interpreted. Interpretation stems from personal bias/agendas. The more I think about Davids idea the more I like it if it can be a truly impartial group. Im talking people that think you score a touchdown in baseball and throw a homerun in football type of impartial. Honestly, theres only been one issue that I know of that would have been presented to such a group this year (maybe a second if the championship tourney seeks resolution). So for all our drama, we really wouldnt be all that high maintenance for them! October 20, 2011 at 8:31pm Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus The issue is over with now, Myan Nolen...be honest...who adviced you on how to go about this? October 20, 2011 at 8:33pm Like

Myan Nolen Wishful thinking. October 20, 2011 at 8:33pm Like

Myan Nolen Yes I consulted Shane and Thurman. And they told me what the process was to change teams. October 20, 2011 at 8:34pm Like

Peter Goulet I am so done with all this childish stuff... October 20, 2011 at 8:35pm Like

Myan Nolen The board voting incident was there own issue. It wasn't Cyds doing or anyone else's they didn't know what to do. October 20, 2011 at 8:37pm Like

Brent Sims I dont know if I cant another 12 months of this ish!!! October 20, 2011 at 8:43pm Like 3

Myan Nolen I agree B October 20, 2011 at 8:58pm Like

Sergio Turbay I just want to recap, because there are so many posts already... LA is the defending champions for next year.... LOL October 20, 2011 at 9:22pm Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus DEAD! October 20, 2011 at 10:11pm via mobile Like

Alex Jax Jones LMAO we need a TV show, this is hilarious, and who cares who's better then who. football is a TEAM sport, no one player wins a championship by themselves. Even Jordan had Pippen. P.S. Winners are always hated because they WON...so take it as a compliment ;) October 20, 2011 at 10:28pm Unlike 1

Alex Jax Jones Now can we put this in the past where it should be, and move on Focusing on the Future...like seriously... October 20, 2011 at 10:31pm Unlike 2

Seth Greenleaf Alex, I've been working on getting a show made, and would you believe it has a positive message! Kidding aside, I know this is all love and pain. This league is filled with smart, sensitive and sometimes wounded people. I think even the drama is beautiful. I don't know how I stumbled into this world but it holds a very special place in my heart. October 20, 2011 at 10:47pm Like 2

Sergio Turbay I want to make an amend to my comment above, just in case people did not notice it... Since this whole conversation started regarding a comment about LA been defending champions, I made the recap comment as a Joke. Once again we care less about that been true or not. For all you people who take everything serious, please note that this comment is a joke and been sarcastic. October 20, 2011 at 11:58pm Like 1

Myan Nolen Alex apparently everyone does! It's not even worth being in this league. I think I may retire from the whole gay flag football ordeal. I just turned 30 and this really isn't fun or competitive! I will support my friends and I wish them luck in future tournaments. October 21, 2011 at 12:03pm via mobile Like

Steve Cramsie You could always be a referee. 0:) October 21, 2011 at 12:04pm Like

Sam Smith Myan if you quit the terrorists win. So don't do it. Come out and go HAM like you do! October 21, 2011 at 12:20pm via mobile Like

Peter Goulet TERRORISTS? WOW October 21, 2011 at 4:55pm Like

Sam Smith Joke guy. October 21, 2011 at 5:50pm via mobile Like 1

Myan Nolen No joke Sam. But I feel you its just not worth it. October 21, 2011 at 6:03pm Like 2

David P. Donohue Myan, you can't quit! We just signed you to a 3 year, 9 tournament deal in Houston!!! :-) October 21, 2011 at 6:50pm Like 2

Peter Goulet @sam, may be a joke, is cool, but using that word in a public forum... yikes... October 21, 2011 at 6:56pm Unlike 1

Alex Jax Jones Happy Birthday!!! October 21, 2011 at 8:53pm Unlike 2

Peter Goulet Thank you Alex !!!!!!!!!!! XO October 21, 2011 at 9:07pm Unlike 2

Myan Nolen Lol @ David October 21, 2011 at 10:34pm via mobile Unlike 1

Myan Nolen Ha! David that has football drama written all over it.. October 21, 2011 at 10:35pm via mobile Unlike 1

David P. Donohue Well you know me, if I can't resolve it I might as well create it! LOL ;-) October 22, 2011 at 12:29am via mobile Unlike 1

Myan Nolen Love that! October 23, 2011 at 6:35pm via mobile Unlike 1

Robert James @ David & Seth, very well said........ thank you!! November 28, 2011 at 7:28pm Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Consultation confirmation.... 49 seconds ago Like

Marc Davino Super fun time in Houston, despite the weather issues. Is there a forum to suggest by-law or rules changes? I'm specifically talking about the tie-breaker which as I understand looks at point differential. I'd like to suggest that be changed to points allowed, which could prevent teams from running up the score. I'm happy to take this offline as well and through whatever channels are in place but running up the score seems antithetical to some of the tenets of sportsmanship, camaraderie and friendship. Thanks. Unlike Unfollow Post October 11, 2011 at 5:06pm You, David Jordan, Alex Jax Jones, Shane Kinkennon and 7 others like this. 50 of 79

Leeron Kopelman NGFFL rules are on the NGFFL.com website (currently experiencing technical difficulties). NIRSA: http://www.nirsa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Sports/FlagFootball/NIRSAFFBRulesandInterpretations/nirsa_ffb_rules.htm October 12, 2011 at 10:02am Unlike 1

Seth Greenleaf Leeron and Cake, by any chance do you know how the NIRSA handles tournament seeding? October 12, 2011 at 10:43am Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus In the hetero leagues, it's been about 50/50....seeding is done by slotting teams through play in leagues and finishes in tournaments. Perhaps recognizing the Florida & Chicago tourneys in the future is a possibility. What I don't understand is this separate but equal rule set. Who looked at the rules and said eliminating the run from the game, trapping the QB in the pocket & limiting athleticism was good for the game. While I'm at it. The snarky comments about women playing was unfortunate. Many of these women are better athletes than some of us. Sexism in our community is rampant and needs to be checked. Our lesbian sisters have every right to play here and all the member city league teams. I'm excited about seeing Denver fully embrace female athletes. Unlike the thoughts of GOProud, this movement is about our lesbian sisters and transgendered kin as well. October 12, 2011 at 11:10am via mobile Like

Seth Greenleaf I'm a little confused about the running suggestion, only because I feel like for a good QB, if you gave them a running play on every series, it would be a nightmare for defenses. Since a part of this discussion has been issues with 50+ point games, I'm not sure that would help the situation. I figured the current rule was to stop super athletes like me and michael vick from taking over a game '-) October 12, 2011 at 11:29am Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus I like Chicago's random draw. We had a tough draw in Chicago but we rebounded and played well on the second day. Picture this...Denver 2012...under the flickering twilight of the American Rockies, the league commissioner introduces the member city reps on Thursday. The top 5 or 6 teams are announced. The commissioner draws the name of the 3 teams that will play the San Diego Bolts, then they draw the teams that will play the Phoenix Hellraisers, until they reach the number 6 seeded LA Motion...instead of San Diego getting Toronto, Salt Lake and DC 2....they draw Houston, New York 2 & Chicago...this would be far more exciting. It would also help teams that actually love the game but who's life isn't dominated by winning this championship. Unless these teams that are so blood thirsty to win, do film study on every team in the tournament, this would also help the developing teams. October 12, 2011 at 11:29am via mobile Like

Cyd Zeigler It has long been the teams seeded in the bottom half of the tournament that have fought against having two divisions. Just ask Jim, who has been unscientifically polling people for years. Many people including myself have asked for two divisions for years, but teams "want the chance to compete for the title," so it keeps getting stopped. The least fun games for everyone are the blowouts - so if we had fewer #1 v. #26 matchups (or like next year when it could be #1 v. #30 or #32), I'm all for it and have been for years. October 12, 2011 at 2:13pm Like

Cyd Zeigler And again Greg, please stop. Your desperate need to vilify other people makes you look far worse than it makes your targets look. October 12, 2011 at 2:14pm Like

Jim Buzinski Cyd is right. When I was on the board we proposed 2 divisions several times but it was always the developing teams that opposed it. But a system that allows some to play in to the championship bracket is a nice solution. October 12, 2011 at 2:41pm Unlike 3

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Cyd, I'm not targeting anyone. What are you speaking about. If you feel I am targeting you or others, please inbox me or talk to me directly. I don't know were your paranoia about me is coming from. October 12, 2011 at 3:14pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Back to constructive conversation, Seth, the biggest difference in the league is the defensive ability of the greater teams. The formula is simple. Put pressure on QBs and force turnovers from DBs that can make plays. Look at what makes the best of the best teams special. Yes, it does seem like the rule was intended to prevent a superior athlete like Michael Vick, Tim Tebow, Cam Newton, Seth Greenleaf or Chris Whitlown from dominating a game. There simply aren't enough gay athletes that have played in pro-style offenses. Introducing the run would make offense easier for teams like Philadelphia, Cleveland, Houston, Atlanta and others. It would make flag pulling more of a component of the game and make linebackers play vertically. In the Atlanta league and many hetero leagues, an athletic corp of linebackers are more important than a group of good corners. Once again, this proposal isn't radical. It is asking that we enter an age where we play the same game of football our hetero peers play... October 12, 2011 at 3:24pm via mobile Like 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Cyd, additionally, this is now the third time, you have felt a need to call me out specifically. I extended an offer to work on these and other issues that you ignored. When I contacted the other members of the board, they returned my email and took my calls. I was able to speak frankly with them, they shared their frustrations with me & I did the same in return. On the other hand, you never acknowledged me on any occasion. I don't live my life like I am better than my fellow man or I am above the game. This tournament and this league is your creation. I thank you for that but this tournament and this league is not only about you. It's much bigger than you. If someone reaches out to you, it is our customary practice to speak. Once again, I am reaching out my hand to ask for your assistance in making suggestions for the board to consider. Will you accept my invitation? Will you forgo personal animus and assist me? My intentions are quite clear. I want to play football the way it was intended to be played. I want the developing teams to feel like they are part of this process & have a voice. I want a game amongst gay athletes to feature gay athletes and our endearing supporters. Finally, I want the 'killer take all' sentiment to disapate (I assume that was the villifying piece.) This should be a competitive tourney but there is a way to win with class. If the max point rule was 18-24, there would be no need to score 70 points on a team. Why are teams throwing bombs when the socre is 49-0? You have the point differential...kneel it out and move on. October 12, 2011 at 3:38pm via mobile Like

Seth Greenleaf I gotcha. So it's more about giving the less experienced offenses an easier option. Interesting. October 12, 2011 at 3:43pm via Unlike 1

Leeron Kopelman Seth, at the NIRSA national championship, at least when I played there (hint: a long time ago) there were no seedings. Just pods of 4 randomly selected teams (out of dozens if not hundreds). Also keep in mind that allowing the QB to run every play would be countered by eliminating the 5 yard rush neutral zone. NIRSA rules provide a one yard neutral zone (also easier on the officials) and (back when it allowed contact on the line) forbade a three-point stance. NIRSA also has a 40 yard wide field (not 35 like NGFFL), yet while we at times managed to run up 70-0 scores [and in just 22 minute halves] that's relatively rare (perhaps there is more parity?) and 28-14 scores are common. I'll add that allowing runs isn't going to turn this into a running game. You still just need to reach out and pull a flag. It will allow a few more scrambles (rather than a lame duck QB) and the occassional designed run to mix things up. In 30 years of NIRSA football, I've only seen one team put together a successful running game - and that team was

composed of the UMich track team! (Where their guy who ran a 4.5 was the slow one.) One more thought: If/when this happens, intentional grounding (as a penalty, 5 yards & Loss of Down) should go back into the rule book, too. October 12, 2011 at 3:48pm Unlike 2

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Seth, it is the reason why most teams in high school & college run the option. A dynamic athlete could make a team competitve. Let me give you an example. I primarily blocked and played cornerback against Atlanta. They have a player VG that is explosive. He is a nightmare to deflag. You could give 4 different QBs in Atlanta this player & they could find a billion different ways to maximize him. Let me give you a strategy example. When we played he New York team in Chicago. I called three option plays in a row. On the first option, I faked the feed to the fullback, spinned, rolled out, dropped back and completed a 20 yard pass. On the next play, I did the same thing, with out spining, and picked up about 15 yards. Because I thought the rules were one QB run per possession instead of one run per possession, I ran the option play to Jax who walked into the end zone untouched. Double rushing left 2 of the interior defenders out of the play & makes safeties have to play the run. Look at the quaterbacks in this league. More diversity on offense could close the gap quickly. As I have noted, I turn 40 next year, I don't think many of us older gays can keep up with these younger guys. To me and this is my opinion, it seems like a rule to exclude athletes that would make me and others look like stiff old men. I play basketball. If someone said no dunking, no post moves, or slashing to the basket, I would understand what they are trying to do. Let's be better than that & usher in an age of competitive football under standard football rules. I guarantee that Wade, Jeremiah & the kids in San Diego have athletes that can ball. It might mean it's time for myself and others to retire but we'll be leaving behind a better game that is reflective of the sport not a hybrid varietal. October 12, 2011 at 4:04pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Seth, you should the different ways the teams play offense in the Atlanta gay league and a couple of the hetero leagues I play in. I now live in South Florida and split time at QB & WR. I am off of defense because I may be the worst flag raker in the history of the game. Rod and I split time. I throw 3 or 4 passes a game & Rod maybe 5 to 6. His passes are usually bombs to me & I do the same to keep defenses honest. We have an option that gives us the ability to use our whole team as runners. I love it. October 12, 2011 at 4:13pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Seth, the threat of the run makes the game different. Let me go back to the New York game we played. I did not get sacked in that game & NY sent 2 or 3 people to rush on every play. I could never set my feet to throw down the field. What was frustrating is that I'd step up in the pocket and Tall Paul was there. Ugh! No passing lanes to see open receivers. I had receivers streaking down the field & I couldn't see them. With running the ball, this could easily be countered and I noted this to Paul on a post in July. Unfortunately, quarterbacks are left playing the game in an unantural way. If things aren't open, you step up, look downfield then take off. That is how QBs are taught to play. You can't do this under these rules. October 12, 2011 at 4:18pm via mobile Like

Seth Greenleaf It's interesting stuff. I always assumed the box rule was to help give developing QBs enough breathing room to succeed. Then people got better and I figured the removal of the box was a way to make the league less "offensive". It sounds now like the balance needs are less between offense and defense and more between high seeds and low seeds. I don't know if there's a competition committee but if there is, maybe they could examine the rules from the perspective of closing the gap between teams. That way it's not about asking good teams not to play hard, because I don't think that will ever happen, but maybe there's a natural way to program more parody. October 12, 2011 at 4:23pm Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Leeron, that is true. It makes the games more competitive. Look at the scores in the Atlanta league. I've seen 4 or 5 really good teams there and we weren't beating people 70-0. Throwing the ball 10 times seems like a few times but the ball is only thrown about 22 - 24 times a game on average. The neutral rushing zone and 20 yard markers as first downs are great neautralizers. They have a very good product down there. October 12, 2011 at 4:23pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Leeron, the funny thing is that there are tons of gay track athletes and not many blazing athletes in the league. They arre playing softball, basketball &volleyball. There has to be a way to get those athletes out of those sports & into this game. Tall Pall did a good job reaching out to us when we all played basketball. I mean many of the really good NYC athletes came out of the bball leagues and our pickup games around the city. October 12, 2011 at 4:28pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Seth, that is a really good idea. My rationale for looking at the rules are simple. What is the easiest way for a developing team to get better outside of loading up on heteros. I think you made a good point about the rules. While I might personally wonder what the rationale is about the running rule, I can see where the box was constructed to make life easier for developing QBs. If teams are randomly selected and grouped at the registration party, it gives a reason for people to attend (I never do) and less time for traditional powers to prepare for the competition. It eliminates labeling a team as inferior and superior and leaves a more even method of seeding teams after round robin play. By luck of the draw, a team like Cleveland may pull 3 new teams, earn a high seed play a decent 2nd round team & advance to a semifinal...its how the NFL scheduling process works and the beauty of an open playoff system. October 12, 2011 at 4:56pm via mobile Like

Braden Leibovitch Maybe it's because it was our first Gay Bowl, but I didn't mind the format at all. As part of the leadership of a new team it gave me a glimpse of the brand of football to strive for. I can understand that repeated results could end up getting frustrating, but in that case the fault should be on lack of development. October 12, 2011 at 7:31pm Unlike 2

Seth Greenleaf That's a great attitude Braden. Welcome! October 12, 2011 at 7:39pm via mobile Unlike 1

Thurman Williams Marc, send your recommendations to my email and let's allow the GB task force to include it in one of it's many recommendations for 2012. Thanks for thinking of ways to improve the tournament and experience. My email is twnffla@gmail.com. October 12, 2011 at 9:33pm Unlike 2

Cakedaddy On Hiatus I told ya'll this board will listen and act. That's all you can ask for. Sometimes it will go your way & other times it won't but they will do what is in the best interest of the league & game. I'm really proud of the work they did in making this tourney a success. October 13, 2011 at 12:20am via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Thurman Williams...I'm going to email suggestions by the end of next week... October 13, 2011 at 1:47pm Like

Alex Jax Jones I like Marc idea of changing from points earned to points allowed. That would Keep teams from Throwing it Down the field 30-50yrs every game because the faster you score you give the opposite team more time to score. Good Idea I also Like Chicagos B-Tournament opt in. I Just feel its disrespectful to tell a team that they have to play in this or that bracket or tournament, but giving them the option to make their own decision is a good idea. Running QB: I think people are afraid that the QB will take off every play and get a first down. But you could do 1 run per 4 downs, and if the QB gets sacked that would be counted as their Run. You could also make first Downs 20yrs instead of 10yrs that makes it difficult to just running it down the field October 13, 2011 at 2:32pm Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Jax & everyone that has opined on the running plays has basically given the national flag football rules or how they play in Atlanta. It actually puts a premium on scoring. Look at the scores in the Atlanta league ( www.nffla.com ) They have a very competitive league and talent base. It is strange that a team can compete in hetero leagues with a high percentage of explosive athletes and be above average under these rules. Something doesn't make sense. October 13, 2011 at 4:18pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Rules shouldn't be written because you fear a certain kind of athlete or want the game to fit a certain level of athletes. It's football. Running the football is what the game is about. Next year, I qualify for senior basketball. The rules don't change to prevent guys that are more fit than me from playing nor do they eliminate the 3 point shot because I am a suspect shooter. The game is the game. Most of us played on teams at every level that ran the ball more than they chucked the rock. Items like the box, 5 yard rushing rule & one run per series isn't the game of football. Imagine a new era of football. Imagine more athletes like Jax & less athletes at my caliber. We need to make a product that encourages athletes like Jax to play instead of watching them play one year and leave while old beat up people like me still hold on. I think Seth's idea of a competition committee makes sense. I can think of 10 people off the top of my head from established markets & developing teams that could make this work. October 13, 2011 at 4:43pm via mobile Like

Michigan Panthers Jax, you mention 20 yards vs 10 for a first down. In NIRSA football, a first down is achieved when you cross the 20 yard lines or 40 (midfield). So a team could face 1st and 1, or 1st and 19.... October 13, 2011 at 6:16pm Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Yep, It is the same way in the predominately hetero leagues in Atlanta and down here in Florida and the Atlanta league does the same...its easier to manage the fields and you are moving less pucks and not concerned with chains...it would make the games quicker and allow the wonderful refs to focus more on the dynamics of the game... October 13, 2011 at 7:03pm Like

Cyd Zeigler I wish we could have just one conversation on this page where one person doesn't decide he needs to dominate the entire thread. Hopefully that can change and we can more freely share ideas here. October 14, 2011 at 2:07am Like

Leeron Kopelman That's the great thing about on-line discussions. Unlike real-time face-to-face meetings, anyone can post - even at the same time. It's not a zero-sum game where if one person talks that's less time or entirely precludes someone else from talking. At the other end, if some people are passionate about an issue and have a lot to say, those who find what they say interesting can read it. Others can skim it or skip it as they see fit. October 14, 2011 at 9:43am Unlike 1

Alvin Ty Law I used to be a big proponent of making the tournament more like other leagues I've played in. However, that has changed over time. The NGFFL rules are definitely not perfect, and I'm sure the board is willing to listen to anyone. Still we need to realize that this is the NGFFL and not any other league. I don't think we should be focusing on how to be more like another league BUT instead focus on what qualities they have can help and will translate well in to make our athletes safe and successful. October 14, 2011 at 10:11am via mobile Like 2

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Cyd, I'm sorry you feel that way. No one else has expressed that frustration. In fact, I apologize to the creator of the thread when you took the thread off the topic when you felt that my comments were noted to paint you in a bad light. It is quite apparent that my presence on this thread, in this league and in person causes tremendous anxiety. For that, I apologize. However, we can get past this point. I'm not going to take juvenile pot shots at you or anyone else. It is now 112 days since my initial request to speak with you & more than 48 hours since my last. Do you want to have a constructive conversation on how to heal this rift or do you want to throw a tantrum. My contact information is still the same. I am extending another invitation. Will you continue to ignore me? October 14, 2011 at 10:43am via mobile Like

Alvin Ty Law G, while i agree with many of your positions, sometimes the manner in which you say it can be very forward/blunt (which does not feel constructive to me). If you truly wish to heal the rift, be the bigger guy. You're not doing yourself any favors or making any friends by posting it here. For example, you apologize and express regret but immediately after you call Cyd out on a public forum out on not responding to you to discuss personal issues. October 14, 2011 at 10:52am via mobile Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus ATL, that's a good point. I definitely don't think the rules are perfect but let's look at the situation in reverse. If the league banned the forward pass, wouldn't people be in arms. Football isn't football without the forward pass. Likewise, football isn't football without the ability to run the ball. A QB is taught to side step pressure, step up in the pocket & take off if no one is open. The natural way a QB is taught to play the position is allowed in most leagues except this league & gives a distinct advantage to defenses. It is a huge hinderence on less developed passing quarterbacks. This thread opened & has been about how to alleviate blowouts. This isn't a one answer, one problem issue. It is apparent in this thread that the rules restrict athletic play & the ability of developing teams to prosper. Not a single post has been made to counter the contention that the running rules hurt the game. Not a single post has been made to justify a rule that runs counter to all other flag football or traaditonal American football rules. Not a single post has been entered to explain how adopting many of the national flag football rules would make us less safe or less successful. Alvin, weren't you successful in your other leagues? I wholeheartedly agree that the focus should be on the qualities that make other leagues more successful. Volleyball, softball, and basketball have not changed the integrity of the game by rule changes. If we are marching for equality and we demand that we are the equal of our hetero brothers & sisters, why can't we put on our eye black & lace up our cleats to play the game in the same manner everyone else does? October 14, 2011 at 10:58am via mobile Like

Shane Kinkennon Guys, yall know I love this dialogue. Thurman and I both are looking at these ideas closely. As is Ty, who's a leader of the task forced charged with coming up with great new ideas for Gay Bowl. And I love yall (even you, too, Cakedaddy... :) But here's a reminder of our Interim comments and participation policy: https://www.facebook.com/groups/31142444855/doc/10150259231694856/ Articulating divergent points of view on here is great. Calling each other out personally on here is not. You know this Board doesn't want to be deleting comments. So yall keep it to the policy so we don't have to.

National Gay Flag Football League (NGFFL) CHECKOUT THE REVAMPED WEBSITE WWW.NGFFL.COM The national organization for gay f...See More

October 14, 2011 at 10:59am Like

Seth Greenleaf Hug it out bitches. One love :) October 14, 2011 at 11:07am Like 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus I'm willing to do that. This isn't personal. I haven't taken personal shots. I spoke to Thurman, Molly, and Jared, David & the folks in Denver that took a contrary view of the resolved situation. I hugged them said I hold no animus and moved on. I've offered to do this with the remaining voice of dissention with no response. We look bad when our response to dissention is hatred. I disagree with the color of our new uniforms but I don't hate Leeron for it. I disagree with how well Shane was covering Jax (who is the fastest Panther ever) but I don't hate him for it. Disagreements mean that a solution needs to found. Let's talk...one on one and resolve these issues. October 14, 2011 at 11:23am via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Seth, that is me. If we win by 30 or lose by 60, I hug every member of every team. It's a game. It isn't an arms race. It's not that serious. October 14, 2011 at 11:24am via mobile Like 1

Leeron Kopelman Greg, you know if it were my personal choice, our uniforms would be maize & blue. :) "The fastest Panther ever" - now that's a statement! I know the only ones I've seen that were faster were on the National Geographic channel.... October 14, 2011 at 12:45pm Unlike 2

Cakedaddy On Hiatus I am saying the way Jax was moving...it could be...and Shane was right with him....he had good footwork...I was impressed by both parties... October 14, 2011 at 2:19pm Like 2

Shane Kinkennon I wish there was a double-like button for that. October 14, 2011 at 3:38pm Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Your team is athletic and tall...I bootlegged on the one play and I swear your linebacker jumped a mile in the air and knocked my pass down...I was like where are they growing the gays that big. It was like playing 5 Tall Palls... October 14, 2011 at 3:45pm Like 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Alvin, I just saw your final post. I'm going to inbox you. October 14, 2011 at 5:41pm via mobile Like

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Alvin, I just saw your final post. I'm going to inbox you. October 14, 2011 at 5:41pm via mobile Like

Alex Jax Jones lol yeah i was trying my hardest to run away from you Shane Kinkennon but every time i looked back you where right there like a ghost lol October 14, 2011 at 7:49pm Unlike 1

Marc Davino OK thanks to everyone for blowing up my post...lol. But on a serious note, what forum exists, if any, for suggesting by-law or rules changes? I'm happy to share my thoughts with whatever group, subcommittee, etc necessary. I'm trying to scroll through all of the posts - is an email to Alvin Ty Law sufficient? Anyone else? Thanks for your passion and commitment to a sport I love. And not that it matters but my original post was directly related to a game my team had to win, by a lot, in order to improve our seed. It did not feel good to us but our opponent totally understood. October 18, 2011 at 10:06pm Unlike 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus Marc, I apologized to you earlier for deviating a bit from the topic. I think Alvin and/or Thurman should receive the messages. Plenty of suggestions were argued in making that reality come to fruition. From changing the rules to mirror the major national bodies, using points allowed, lowering the max points awarded from 36 down to 18 - 21, having an open draw & working towards an A & B bracket. All the suggestions made sense & it is great to see people debate the merits in a civil manner. I'm not in a good place mentally & probably need to check out. Good point, be blessed & love the people in your life real hard. October 18, 2011 at 10:15pm via mobile Like 1

Cakedaddy On Hiatus One of three threads about rule changes, by-laws and the B division.... 5 minutes ago Like