Calculation process of FSRT in Mark IV

http://www.control.com/thread/1255114750#1266374368

from the MARK IV department...

Calculation process of FSRT in Mark IV

Posted by Pirate on 9 October, 2009 - 2:59 pm

What is the formula for FSRT (Temperature Control FSR) in Mark IV? As I know Speed control FSR, FSRN = (TNR-TNH)*FSKRN2 + FSKRN1. From manual I Found that FSRT = (TTRXB-TTXM)* FSKTG+ ......(the rest part I failed to understand which contains FSKTTC and FSR) Can anyone help me to find out the rest part? Another query: Suppose a turbine is operating at droop control. Due to frequency excursion if it goes to temperature control and stay in temperature control mode for several minutes, will it affect the turbine? Should anyone operate turbine at temperature control mode?

Posted by CSA

on 9 October, 2009 - 5:17 pm

While not as user-friendly as the former 'Search' feature, the present 'Search' feature of control.com is very fast and very good. Entering a search term of "+TTRX" (without the quotes but with the plus sign) yielded the following as one of the top responses: http://control.com/thread/1242458714#1242663939 Whenever an operator selects Base Load, the unit goes on Exhaust Temperature control. It's actually the most efficient operating mode, and when operating at Base Load the hot gas path parts are subjected to the lowest temperature stresses. That's because Exhaust Temperature Control means that the temperature of the hot combustion gases leaving the first stage nozzle are constant for any given ambient condition, including when frequency decreases. Of course, when frequency decreases and the unit goes on Exhaust Temperature Control the power output is reduced from rated, however, presuming the CPD feedback is correct, the "firing temperature" (the temperature of the hot combustion gases leaving the first stage nozzle) will remain constant.

Posted by Pirate

on 18 October, 2009 - 8:08 am

Dear CSA, I've gone through all of your links and posts relating to +TTRX and FSRT but I didn't find any established equation of FSRT. From Manual(of MARK IV) I found FSRN = (TNR-TNH)*FSKRN2 + FSKRN1 And FSRT = (TTRXB-TTXM)* FSKTG + ......(the rest part I failed to understand which contains FSKTTC and FSR) I failed to draw that logic diagram in this text box.

1 of 3

4/27/2012 10:31 PM

Calculation process of FSRT in Mark IV

http://www.control.com/thread/1255114750#1266374368

Will u please write the rest part of that equation for me? Or, If anyone know this equation help me to complete the equation of FSRT. Thank you

Posted by CSA

on 21 October, 2009 - 4:12 pm

I've been trying to come up with a response to this question and I don't know exactly how to respond. If you have the Mark IV Speedtronic elementary, it clearly shows the algorithm for determining FSRT, so I'm not really clear what the problem is. EXCEPT that one needs to remember that when the unit is operating on CPD-biased exhaust temperature control the Speedtronic is trying to put as much fuel as possible into the turbine without exceeding the exhaust temperature reference (limit) defined by TTRX. So, if that means that FSR has to be 45.4% for the "median" exhaust temperature, TTXM, to equal the exhaust temperature reference (limit), TTRX, then FSRT will be equal to 45.4%. And, if that means that FSR has to be 85.7% for the TTXM to be equal to TTRX then FSRT will be equal to 85.7%. The calibration of the fuel valve LVDTs (presuming there are LVDTs on the fuel valve; or the fuel flow feedback in the case of Liquid Fuel) has a lot to do with the "final" FSRT, only because the Speedtronic will adjust the fuel valve to whatever position is required to make TTXM equal to TTRX. If you're trying to equate FSRT to some load and have that relationship be true for all operating conditions on any turbine (such as for two Frame 6s on the same site running on the same fuel), it's not a proper way to compare operation. There is a general "rule" that says that FSR should be 'approximately between' (note the wide range!) 60% and 80% for a new and clean turbine burning the primary fuel with a properly tuned and calibrated fuel delivery system under rated ambient conditions (temperature, site elevation, atmospheric pressure, and exhaust back-pressure). The typical Base Load FSR value for a new and clean turbine burning natural gas or liquid fuel operating at rated conditions with a properly tuned and calibrated control system is about 70-75%. The above are just guidelines, and every turbine is slightly different. Even two units on the same site installed and started up at the same time can behave very differently over the years. And a lot of turbines, especially older units, have lots of performance degradation and calibration/tuning problems, AND they run at ambient conditions which are far different than nameplate rating. As the unit is loaded from FSNL to Base Load, TTRX will decrease. As TTRX decreases, FSRT will decrease. I will try to find a Mark IV elementary and see if I can glean something from the FSRT algorithm, but it would be very helpful if we understood what you are trying to prove or disprove. But, in any case, remember: FSR will be whatever it needs to be when Base Load is selected to make TTXM equal to TTRX. If you have some condition that you are trying to troubleshoot or explain, perhaps if you told us we could provide more information. In thinking about this problem, I've never given FSRT much thought in the past. Because, FSRT will be whatever it needs to be to make TTRX equal to TTXM. Having said that, if FSR (FSRT) is only 33% or is 97% I would be looking at possible causes, but I wouldn't be suspecting the calculation of FSRT. I would likely have a look at the Control Constants you mentioned to be sure they are the values listed in the Control Specification. But the problem would most likely be caused by something else, such as improperly calibrated LVDTs, or a dirty compressor, or a poorly calibrated 96CD-1 transducer, or something like that. I've even seen some pretty strange droop settings cause some very odd FSRs.

2 of 3

4/27/2012 10:31 PM

Calculation process of FSRT in Mark IV

http://www.control.com/thread/1255114750#1266374368

Posted by venu on 20 November, 2009 - 5:02 pm

calculation of FSRT FSRT= ((TTRXB-TTXM)*FSKTG)+ FSR

Posted by pklman

on 16 February, 2010 - 9:39 pm

That's very nice explanation, do the calculation is same for MARK V since it is already using TMR?

Posted by CSA

on 17 February, 2010 - 10:51 am

This concept of CPD-biased exhaust temperature control is very generic to GE-design heavy duty gas turbines, so even though the control systems have changed over the years the concepts of turbine control haven't. The same exhaust T/C arrangements are used in gas turbines and the same practice of monitoring compressor discharge pressure is used, and has been since the earliest heavy duty gas turbines were produced in the 1950s. So, basically this same algorithm has been used by GE in their digital control systems since the early 1980s in the Mark IV (SIMPLEX or TMR), the Mark V, the Mark VI, and is still used today in Mark VIe (SIMPLEX or TMR). The only difference is the number of exhaust T/Cs that are used on the various turbines, and the type of control system (SIMPLEX or TMR), and in some cases the number of CPD transmitters. Your use of this site is subject to the terms and conditions set forth under Legal Notices and the Privacy Policy. Please read those terms and conditions carefully. Subject to the rights expressly reserved to others under Legal Notices, the content of this site and the compilation thereof is 1999-2012 Nerds in Control, LLC. All rights reserved. Users of this site are benefiting from open source technologies, including PHP, MySQL and Apache. Be happy. Fortune It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

3 of 3

4/27/2012 10:31 PM